MBB: Duke vs. The Crying Jordans (3/4, 8 EST, ESPN) Pre-Game and In-Game Thread

[kAzE]

Well, I started the last pre-game thread, and we won, so I'm going to test to see if it keeps working . . .

Obviously, this is a huge, huge game with major ACCT and NCAAT implications, especially for us. The Cheaters get Hicks back for this one (although they are minus Kenny Williams), and our health remains a question mark.

My keys to the game:

- Can we compete on the boards?

Particularly, can we limit their chances on the offensive glass? We were great in the defensive half court last time, despite giving up 78 points due to their frenetic pace. We have been playing well on defense for the most part lately, but it will be important to finish off defensive possessions with a rebound.

- Can Grayson be Grayson? And if not, can Frank have a big game in his place?

Grayson will most likely play, but it would difficult to expect him to replicate his performance from our last match up if he's still hobbled. Therefore, we probably need Frank to be a difference maker offensively.

- Can we stay out of foul trouble?

They are way deeper than we are, so we cannot afford to make this a battle of attrition.

- Can we play well in transition?

First, we need to take care of the ball and get good shots, so that they don't get too many chances to run, but when they do, we need to get back in a hurry to stop their deadly fast break offense. Also, we need to stop failing on our own fast breaks. It's almost a joke how bad we've played on fast breaks lately, and if we play the Cheaters' fast game, we will need to convert on those opportunities.

LGD!

[Kedsy]

They are way deeper than we are, so we cannot afford to make this a battle of attrition.

Are they way deeper than we are, or do they just play more guys?

[kAzE]

Are they way deeper than we are, or do they just play more guys?

Isn't that the definition of a deeper rotation? I do hope Harry and Marques will get some chances in this game though, since Carolina likes to play 2 bigs.

However, if Grayson still isn't right, we're down to 3 healthy guards. I think that qualifies as a pretty shallow back court. Frank needs to play smart defense so he can stay on the floor.

[Kedsy]

Isn't that the definition of a deeper rotation? I do hope Harry and Marques will get some chances in this game though, since Carolina likes to play 2 bigs.

However, if Grayson still isn't right, we're down to 3 healthy guards. I think that qualifies as a pretty shallow back court. Frank needs to play smart defense so he can stay on the floor.

My point is, especially without Williams, UNC only has 8 effective players. Even if Grayson is playing on one leg, would you rather have that or Nate Britt on the floor?

Sure, they play Brandon Robinson (eFG% = 39.2%) and Seventh Woods (oRtg = 78.3), but if it became a "battle of attrition," where you're playing guys out of necessity, would you rather have those guys in the game, or Javin DeLaurier (eFG% = 80.0%) and Jack White (oRtg = 125.9)? So, basically, their "depth" advantage is Luke Maye vs. Marques Bolden and/or Chase Jeter. Again, if it came to that, who'd you rather have on your side?

If you want to talk about fresh legs, then maybe the fact that Roy plays 10 guys while K only plays 7 might be construed as a depth advantage (though I still say no; if Robinson and Woods are on the floor, that's an advantage for Duke, I don't care how fresh their legs are). But if you're talking about a "battle of attrition," where guys are in foul trouble or whatever, I like the end of our bench much better than theirs, despite our guys' lack of game minutes.

[bob blue devil]

Isn't that the definition of a deeper rotation? I do hope Harry and Marques will get some chances in this game though, since Carolina likes to play 2 bigs.

However, if Grayson still isn't right, we're down to 3 healthy guards. I think that qualifies as a pretty shallow back court. Frank needs to play smart defense so he can stay on the floor.

semantics alert... nobody said "deeper rotation", it was just "deeper", which could mean a few things. and i am in agreement with kedsy's point (at least how i interpreted it) - just because we play fewer guys in the rotation, doesn't necessarily mean we are poorly suited to handle foul trouble vs. another team that plays more guys in the rotation.

note - kedsy spoke for himself before i got the chance to put words in his mouth

[COYS]

Also, we need to stop failing on our own fast breaks. It's almost a joke how bad we've played on fast breaks lately, and if we play the Cheaters' fast game, we will need to convert on those opportunities.

LGD!

It's such an obvious point but I agree that it is now worth watching how Duke handles transition opportunities. Awful transition possessions cost us wins in Syracuse and Miami. Mediocre transition offense made the FSU game a little closer than it needed to be. Simply put, we can't afford to toss away 4-8 points on wasted fast breaks like have had a nasty habit of doing, recently. I hope that this is just a strange aberration.

[BandAlum83]

Go Duke!!!

[kAzE]

My point is, especially without Williams, UNC only has 8 effective players. Even if Grayson is playing on one leg, would you rather have that or Nate Britt on the floor?

Sure, they play Brandon Robinson (eFG% = 39.2%) and Seventh Woods (oRtg = 78.3), but if it became a "battle of attrition," where you're playing guys out of necessity, would you rather have those guys in the game, or Javin DeLaurier (eFG% = 80.0%) and Jack White (oRtg = 125.9)? So, basically, their "depth" advantage is Luke Maye vs. Marques Bolden and/or Chase Jeter. Again, if it came to that, who'd you rather have on your side?

If you want to talk about fresh legs, then maybe the fact that Roy plays 10 guys while K only plays 7 might be construed as a depth advantage (though I still say no; if Robinson and Woods are on the floor, that's an advantage for Duke, I don't care how fresh their legs are). But if you're talking about a "battle of attrition," where guys are in foul trouble or whatever, I like the end of our bench much better than theirs, despite our guys' lack of game minutes.

Well, I guess when you put it that way, I'll take our guys, but not with any confidence, especially not on the road on their senior night.

Come on, you would be the first one to cry foul if someone else posted stats for 2 guys who have played a combined 19 minutes in the ACC. So based on their performance against early season cupcakes, you think Jack and Javin can sub in on the road, on UNC's senior night, on the biggest stage up to this point in college basketball this entire season, and win the game? Not saying they can't do it, but I'd prefer our starters stay out of foul trouble, and not have to find out.

[brevity]

MBB: Duke vs. The Crying Jordans (3/4, 8 EST, ESPN) Pre-Game and In-Game Thread

Nope.

Mods, please change to The Frickin' Duke vs. UNC Game (3/4, 8 EST, ESPN) Pre-Game and In-Game Thread. Context (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article118129703.html) if you don't remember. Thank you.

[budwom]

My point is, especially without Williams, UNC only has 8 effective players. Even if Grayson is playing on one leg, would you rather have that or Nate Britt on the floor?

Sure, they play Brandon Robinson (eFG% = 39.2%) and Seventh Woods (oRtg = 78.3), but if it became a "battle of attrition," where you're playing guys out of necessity, would you rather have those guys in the game, or Javin DeLaurier (eFG% = 80.0%) and Jack White (oRtg = 125.9)? So, basically, their "depth" advantage is Luke Maye vs. Marques Bolden and/or Chase Jeter. Again, if it came to that, who'd you rather have on your side?

If you want to talk about fresh legs, then maybe the fact that Roy plays 10 guys while K only plays 7 might be construed as a depth advantage (though I still say no; if Robinson and Woods are on the floor, that's an advantage for Duke, I don't care how fresh their legs are). But if you're talking about a "battle of attrition," where guys are in foul trouble or whatever, I like the end of our bench much better than theirs, despite our guys' lack of game minutes.

I'm with you on the depth issue, Kedsy, but can't buy completely into the stats you cite since Robinson and Woods have played 258 and 266 minutes respectively, while White
and DeLaurier have played only 59 and 83 minutes respectively, and generally only against inferior competition.

[CDu]

I'm with you on the depth issue, Kedsy, but can't buy completely into the stats you cite since Robinson and Woods have played 258 and 266 minutes respectively, while White
and DeLaurier have played only 59 and 83 minutes respectively, and generally only against inferior competition.

Woods and Robinson are better players than White. Harder to say with DeLaurier given positional differences. But I would not feel comfortable if it came down to Woods vs White.

[duke4ever19]

Are they way deeper than we are, or do they just play more guys?

Ooh. This is a subtle and interesting difference.

I've always assumed that Roy's fast-paced offensive style needs that wave of fresh bodies, so he's okay risking a few losses early in the season as his bench morphs from an occasional liability into an experienced, stable group by tournament time.

Admittedly, I don't watch a lot of unc ball, but that's my guess. Coach K seems much more content to let his bench players prove themselves in practice and then get game minutes as a reward. K has also been much more willing to alter the offense and defense since taking over USA ball. Roy's teams are rather predictable on both sides of the court.

[DukeFanSince1990]

I booted a new storage server at today at work. One of the boot codes was 9F. I am taking that as a good omen.

[Kedsy]

I'm with you on the depth issue, Kedsy, but can't buy completely into the stats you cite since Robinson and Woods have played 258 and 266 minutes respectively, while White
and DeLaurier have played only 59 and 83 minutes respectively, and generally only against inferior competition.


Woods and Robinson are better players than White. Harder to say with DeLaurier given positional differences. But I would not feel comfortable if it came down to Woods vs White.


Come on, you would be the first one to cry foul if someone else posted stats for 2 guys who have played a combined 19 minutes in the ACC.

OK, I'll grant you the stats on our side were gratuitous, though from what I've seen of Woods and Robinson they appear to be liabilities on the floor, and their stats (accumulated, as budwom points out, in more minutes) are dreadful and would seem to confirm my eye test. Maybe Javin and Jack are bad examples, but Chase and Antonio don't play the same position as Woods or Robinson. I still like the end of our bench better than theirs.


So based on their performance against early season cupcakes, you think Jack and Javin can sub in on the road, on UNC's senior night, on the biggest stage up to this point in college basketball this entire season, and win the game? Not saying they can't do it, but I'd prefer our starters stay out of foul trouble, and not have to find out.

I don't know. I certainly don't think Javin and Jack could do a better job than the players ahead of them in the rotation. But if it came down to it, and both teams were playing their 9th and 10th guys, I think our guys could contribute to a win at least as much if not more than UNC's guys.

[budwom]

^ I agree out bench guys are theoretically pretty good....but I suspect we won't see them at all (numbers 9 and 10 in the would be rotation).

[kAzE]

If you want to talk about fresh legs, then maybe the fact that Roy plays 10 guys while K only plays 7 might be construed as a depth advantage

Well, how about looking at this way? Since UNC plays a deeper rotation, they can have their end of the bench guys play more aggressively on D and commit fouls in place of their starters.

We, on the other hand, only play our starters, and end-of-bench guys only play out of necessity. So any fouls we pick up along the way are fouls on guys who we don't want picking up fouls. Just by going deeper into their bench earlier, they have more players to "share" the fouls.

[rasputin]

Are they way deeper than we are, or do they just play more guys?

I know what's "deeper" in Chapel Hill, and it ain't the rotation.

[Kedsy]

Well, how about looking at this way? Since UNC plays a deeper rotation, they can have their end of the bench guys play more aggressively on D and commit fouls in place of their starters.

We, on the other hand, only play our starters, and end-of-bench guys only play out of necessity. So any fouls we pick up along the way are fouls on guys who we don't want picking up fouls. Just by going deeper into their bench earlier, they have more players to "share" the fouls.

OK, but how much is that worth? It's not like those fouls need to be committed, right? Beside, if Woods is out there committing fouls, maybe he gets a steal out of it, but he doesn't play any offense, and we get into the bonus quicker, which alone is probably a net positive for us. Ultimately, I stick by my belief that if UNC is playing its 9th and 10th guys, I'll be happy.

[kAzE]

OK, but how much is that worth? It's not like those fouls need to be committed, right? Beside, if Woods is out there committing fouls, maybe he gets a steal out of it, but he doesn't play any offense, and we get into the bonus quicker, which alone is probably a net positive for us. Ultimately, I stick by my belief that if UNC is playing its 9th and 10th guys, I'll be happy.

This goes back to my original post, where I said, we don't want to get into a war of attrition. It's not about our 9th and 10th guys vs. their 9th and 10th guys. It's that they are playing guys who they don't care if they get fouls. If there are 3 minutes left in the game, and we have Amile, Luke, and Frank with 4 fouls each, and they have 3 each on Mayes, Pinson, Woods, and Berry, that's 12 fouls on both teams, but we're at a HUGE disadvantage. That's what I'm getting at.

But I'll walk it back a little bit, I didn't quite realize how much losing Williams hurts the quality of their depth. That was a pretty key injury for them. There's a big difference when Theo Pinson is your best guy off the bench, and now I guess it's Bradley? or Britt?

[SlapTheFloor]

This is going to be a tough game. UNC is undefeated in the Dean Dome this season. If we win this one, it would bode very well for our chances in the NCAA tournament.

[weezie]

I know what's "deeper" in Chapel Hill, and it ain't the rotation.

:D:D:D

Here's to Ol'Huck using all of his time outs before sobbing in frustration. Or, better, using none of them and staring into the middle distance with a blank look on his face (yes, I know, how can anyone tell) and THEN sobbing.

[Kedsy]

If there are 3 minutes left in the game, and we have Amile, Luke, and Frank with 4 fouls each, and they have 3 each on Mayes, Pinson, Woods, and Berry, that's 12 fouls on both teams, but we're at a HUGE disadvantage. That's what I'm getting at.

I understand. What I'm getting at is UNC will have to pay a price to purchase the possibility you mention, namely that their 8, 9, and 10 guys have to be in the game for a fair number of minutes, which (hopefully) would give us a HUGE advantage. Which advantage/disadvantage will be more important, it's hard to say before the game is actually played.

[MartyClark]

This is going to be a tough game. UNC is undefeated in the Dean Dome this season. If we win this one, it would bode very well for our chances in the NCAA tournament.

Yeah, I agree. My heart is overruling my brain on this one though. For some reason, I think Duke will win.

[Billy Dat]

Yeah, I agree. My heart is overruling my brain on this one though. For some reason, I think Duke will win.

Mine is, too. It's likely driven by the recency bias of both team's last games and the fact that we have had a lot of luck winning over there over the past few years.

I think kAze's original questions about the game are all good ones

-Can we compete on the boards?

I read/heard somewhere that Meeks has been getting more minutes and it has resulted in their rebounding advantage increasing. Our best luck with him has usually been to force him off the court by imposing our style. Part of this, then, is will they force us to go big or can we force them to go smaller. Much will depend on how we shoot (and rebound).

-Can Grayson be Grayson? And if not, can Frank have a big game in his place?

I doubt Grayson will be Grayson because he really looks limited. Frank will have to keep the defense very honest because we have seen how ugly it gets when Luke is desperately trying to make things happen and Jayson starts slow on offense.

-Can we stay out of foul trouble?

I am counting on Hicks to be in his usual foul trouble, maybe too much so.

- Can we play well in transition?

I never really paid attention to the KenPom adjusted tempo stat on the main page and UNC is 57th and we are 214th! For comparison, UVA is actually the slowest team, ranked dead last at 351st! I didn't realize that we played so slow. Based on our horrible transition execution of late, maybe we ought to stay out of transition entirely (I kid, kind of)

I'll add the following...

-Will KenPom 37th ranked defense be enough, or do we have to play better defense than that to win? What will UNC do to try and shake Matt Jones off of Justin Jackson?
-Does Jayson Tatum have another gear that includes more scoring in the first 10 minutes of a game to go along with his second half scoring, rebounding and overall solid defense?
-Can Amile Jefferson continue to play all out regardless of pain and hold the frontline down?
-Will GilesBolden BoldenGiles have a say in this game?

[Troublemaker]

Yeah, I agree. My heart is overruling my brain on this one though. For some reason, I think Duke will win.


Mine is, too. It's likely driven by the recency bias of both team's last games and the fact that we have had a lot of luck winning over there over the past few years.

It's not weird. If I keep repeating "12 out of 16" and "5 out of 6," it'll have a subconscious effect on everyone. I trust nobody is sick of me mentioning those numbers.

https://s3media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/418/118/6_5118418.jpg

[devildeac]

https://s3media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/418/118/6_5118418.jpg

And somehow, that was probably a foul on Tatum. :rolleyes:

[NSDukeFan]

I understand. What I'm getting at is UNC will have to pay a price to purchase the possibility you mention, namely that their 8, 9, and 10 guys have to be in the game for a fair number of minutes, which (hopefully) would give us a HUGE advantage. Which advantage/disadvantage will be more important, it's hard to say before the game is actually played.

If it comes down to our 5th center against their 5th center, (assuming Jeter can go) I think Duke has a huge advantage. Duke might have the best 5th and 6th centers in NCAA history, (Vrankovic and Javin?). This may not be a factor in the game however.

[MartyClark]

If it comes down to our 5th center against their 5th center, (assuming Jeter can go) I think Duke has a huge advantage. Duke might have the best 5th and 6th centers in NCAA history, (Vrankovic and Javin?). This may not be a factor in the game however.

I don't know remember how much Bolden played in the 1st game. I need to look at that. I think Bolden matches up well against Meeks.

[DukieInBrasil]

It's not weird. If I keep repeating "12 out of 16" and "5 out of 6," it'll have a subconscious effect on everyone. I trust nobody is sick of me mentioning those numbers.

https://s3media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/418/118/6_5118418.jpg

i still don't understand how they didn't call a foul on that play. Meeks' elbow hit Jayson in the face. Regardless, there's all kinds of contact from Meeks all across Jayson. Yet no foul was called.

[devildeac]

i still don't understand how they didn't call a foul on that play. Meeks' elbow hit Jayson in the face. Regardless, there's all kinds of contact from Meeks all across Jayson. Yet no foul was called.

"Face is part of the ball."

----acc refs

:rolleyes::mad:

[kAzE]

"Face is part of the ball."

----acc refs

I guess that makes this a legal play on the ball. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C04fSlYTGzI)

[devildeac]

I guess that makes this a legal play on the ball. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C04fSlYTGzI)

Well, if you want to be consistent...

:rolleyes:

[ncexnyc]

I've got this very strange feeling that come Sunday we will be lamenting letting the State and/or Cuze game get away.;)

[BandAlum83]

I've got this very strange feeling that come Sunday we will be lamenting letting the State and/or Cuze game get away.;)

Why Sunday? What will be so different sunday?

We will know Saturday night whether or not we have a double bye. The ACCT brackets will be set. What happens Sunday that makes you think any additional lamentation will surface?

[gofurman]

Don't give me heck but I don't see a win this year w Grayson hobbled. And such a high win at home' and lose on the road' ratio in the ACC. FSU and UNC haven't lost at home. Look how we did at Miami and Cuse

Let's do our best. Hope for a win. Get healthy and kill NCAAT. I don't get those people worrying about Vrank javin etc. that isn't going to matter. Believe. Me. This time of year Jeter would be lucky to see the court

My main three concerns in general - not just unc. Are HEALTH of Grayson (and Amile). Defending small quick guards - FSU woulda won had they gone small earlier. I know we were up but FSu was killing us once they sat a.big in favor of more small guys. Our transition O. Never have I seen us miss so many 2 on 1 run outs. Strange

[Furniture]

It's going to be fun!!

[Troublemaker]

Why Sunday? What will be so different sunday?

We will know Saturday night whether or not we have a double bye. The ACCT brackets will be set. What happens Sunday that makes you think any additional lamentation will surface?

Yes. Plus, I personally can't envision caring all that much about the double bye following a loss to Carolina. The frustration following a loss to the Heels (particularly if Grayson's injury plays a large role) would far, far outpace any frustration at needing to win 4 games in 4 days to win the ACCT. And, frankly, there might be some upside to needing to win 4 in 4. Theoretically, Coach K might play Bolden and Giles more to lighten Amile's load if he sees that Duke's path to an ACC championship is lengthier than usual. (Right? That's at least possible?)

[Troublemaker]

One of the keys to the game will be whether UNC does a better job defending Duke's three-pt shooting. The following is just plain overhelp by the weakside guard on a baseline drive, giving up a corner 3 to Luke Kennard. That's too easy for Duke. UNC's guard needs to allow his bigs to protect the basket instead. High-resolution version (https://gfycat.com/CreativeInferiorFritillarybutterfly).

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CreativeInferiorFritillarybutterfly-size_restricted.gif

[Troublemaker]

Grayson will be missed if he's hobbling around, ineffective. The combination of Grayson's very quick release (Klay Thompson-esque) and UNC's willingness to help one short pass away makes life very difficult on the Heels. Berry does a decent job here all things considered, but the lightning-quick release means Grayson gets a clean look. High-res version (https://gfycat.com/UglyFlawedDromedary).

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/UglyFlawedDromedary-size_restricted.gif

[Troublemaker]

In general, Jayson did a great job picking apart UNC's (over)help for assists. High-res (https://gfycat.com/ThoughtfulDisgustingAmurratsnake).

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ThoughtfulDisgustingAmurratsnake-size_restricted.gif


High-res (https://gfycat.com/MiniatureLongJellyfish) for the beautiful play below. Love Grayson's fade to the corner, quick release, and soft shot. And Jayson's on-target pass.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MiniatureLongJellyfish-size_restricted.gif

[moonpie23]

i'm pretty sure that K and the staff will have a plan for them with and without grayson...


i don't make predictions, but i don't feel that dread ...

[jv001]

For some unknown reason, I have a feeling Matt Jones will regain his touch with some timely 3 pointers. I don't know why I feel that way because he's been off more than on. I would love to see Coach K rest Grayson in this game but we're just too thin in the backcourt without him.

Question #1: will the refs let 'em play or will we hear the whistle blow way too many times. We can't afford to have Luke, Matt or Jayson in foul trouble. If it does happen, Grayson will have to play too many minutes. That could be trouble not only for this game, but trouble for the ACCT and the NCAAT. I guess I'd rather see the refs let 'em play.

Question #2: If we're getting killed on the boards, will Coach K go to the two bigs lineup? If he does will we see more Harry or Marques as the second big?

Question #3: If we get in big foul trouble, will we see some zone? Playing it can keep the fouls down but in the few instances that we played zone, we didn't do a good job. We gave up too many easy buckets.

One thing for sure, we're playing with house money because of our victory in Cameron. Not much pressure because we're in the NCAAT no matter what the outcome is. Then again this is the biggest rivalry in sports, so there is some pressure to beat the cheats in any sport. GoDuke!

[DukieInBrasil]

For some unknown reason, I have a feeling Matt Jones will regain his touch with some timely 3 pointers. I don't know why I feel that way because he's been off more than on. I would love to see Coach K rest Grayson in this game but we're just too thin in the backcourt without him.

Question #1: will the refs let 'em play or will we hear the whistle blow way too many times. We can't afford to have Luke, Matt or Jayson in foul trouble. If it does happen, Grayson will have to play too many minutes. That could be trouble not only for this game, but trouble for the ACCT and the NCAAT. I guess I'd rather see the refs let 'em play.

Question #2: If we're getting killed on the boards, will Coach K go to the two bigs lineup? If he does will we see more Harry or Marques as the second big?

Question #3: If we get in big foul trouble, will we see some zone? Playing it can keep the fouls down but in the few instances that we played zone, we didn't do a good job. We gave up too many easy buckets.

One thing for sure, we're playing with house money because of our victory in Cameron. Not much pressure because we're in the NCAAT no matter what the outcome is. Then again this is the biggest rivalry in sports, so there is some pressure to beat the cheats in any sport. GoDuke!

will the refs call fouls when UNC hits Duke players in the face with their elbows? Will the refs call fouls when UNC guards grab fistfuls of D/Luke jerseys? TBF, Amile (or was it Jayson?) did grab a fistful of a Meeks jersey that caused Meeks to miss a dunk.
I like the fact that our defensive presence has improved, in general, over the last few games. I don't like the fact that UNC has Hicks back for this game. This is only minorly offset by the loss of Williams, but Duke has more players to use at the PF/C spot than at the G/SF spot, if that becomes an issue.

[jv001]

Woods and Robinson are better players than White. Harder to say with DeLaurier given positional differences. But I would not feel comfortable if it came down to Woods vs White.

Jack White, the new Fred Lind or is he the new Robbie West? Anyway let's beat the cheats in the Nose Dome, in Cheatville. GoDuke!

[ChillinDuke]

Senior Night for the Heels. I forget exactly how it works in Chapel Hill, but I believe Ol' Roy starts even the walk-ons if they're seniors - a tradition that always baffles me. I guess if it were my team I'd respect it. But it's not my team. So I look at it as yet another unnecessary hindrance for Carolina, albeit somewhat small. I don't think Roy calls timeout either to get the walk-ons out; I think he waits until the first whistle - which I believe at least once took a few minutes. But I could be fuzzy.

Can anyone confirm this is what Roy does on Senior Night?

- Chillin

[OldPhiKap]

Senior Night for the Heels. I forget exactly how it works in Chapel Hill, but I believe Ol' Roy starts even the walk-ons if they're seniors - a tradition that always baffles me. I guess if it were my team I'd respect it. But it's not my team. So I look at it as yet another unnecessary hindrance for Carolina, albeit somewhat small. I don't think Roy calls timeout either to get the walk-ons out; I think he waits until the first whistle - which I believe at least once took a few minutes. But I could be fuzzy.

Can anyone confirm this is what Roy does on Senior Night?

- Chillin

I think that is a cool tradition actually. Didn't we do that in the 1980's too?

[duketaylor]

Senior Night for the Heels. I forget exactly how it works in Chapel Hill, but I believe Ol' Roy starts even the walk-ons if they're seniors - a tradition that always baffles me. I guess if it were my team I'd respect it. But it's not my team. So I look at it as yet another unnecessary hindrance for Carolina, albeit somewhat small. I don't think Roy calls timeout either to get the walk-ons out; I think he waits until the first whistle - which I believe at least once took a few minutes. But I could be fuzzy.

Can anyone confirm this is what Roy does on Senior Night?

- Chillin

Roy has done this in the past, yes.

[BluDvlsN1]

An interesting tweet with comments I thought
You might enjoy if you haven't seen yet.

https://twitter.com/bluedevilnation/status/837312242244800512



Funny!

7219

[UrinalCake]

I don't like the fact that UNC has Hicks back for this game. This is only minorly offset by the loss of Williams, but Duke has more players to use at the PF/C spot than at the G/SF spot, if that becomes an issue.


Hicks has been pretty bad since missing the first game against us, he is simply unable to stay on the floor.

vs. NC State: 7 min, 4 fouls, 7 points
vs. UVA: 25min, 3 fouls, 10 points
vs. Louisville: 14 min, 4 fouls, 0 points
vs. Pitt: 27 min, 4 fouls, 8 points
vs. UVA: 19 min, 5 fouls, 2 points

Now the question is, will he continue to soak up fouls playing at home, in his senior game, against a likely smaller player? Or will the refs swallow their whistles? He is obviously a major upgrade in rebounding over Maye, which we exploited in the first matchup, but Maye also shot well and made a bunch of outside jumpers that you don't expect him to make.

[Indoor66]

Roy has done this in the past, yes.

They have done this since Dean was coach. I do not recall what Frank Maguire did - though I do remember that he cheated.:mad:

[English]

If it comes down to our 5th center against their 5th center, (assuming Jeter can go) I think Duke has a huge advantage. Duke might have the best 5th and 6th centers in NCAA history, (Vrankovic and Javin?). This may not be a factor in the game however.

The legend of Javin grows by the day...he's a center now? I guess he's a center the same way that the backup quarterback can sometimes be the fourth string kicker.

[Troublemaker]

Senior Night for the Heels. I forget exactly how it works in Chapel Hill, but I believe Ol' Roy starts even the walk-ons if they're seniors - a tradition that always baffles me. I guess if it were my team I'd respect it. But it's not my team. So I look at it as yet another unnecessary hindrance for Carolina, albeit somewhat small. I don't think Roy calls timeout either to get the walk-ons out; I think he waits until the first whistle - which I believe at least once took a few minutes. But I could be fuzzy.

Can anyone confirm this is what Roy does on Senior Night?


UNC will start:

Britt, Coker(walk-on), White(walk-on), Hicks, Meeks.

(Actually, I forget whether Stilman White is a recruited player. But I'm certain he's a downgrade from Berry or Jackson).

Sometimes the diminished lineup has worked to Duke's advantage, sometimes it has not. Just a gut feeling, but I think it's going to be the latter tomorrow. I think Britt, Coker, and White will go to the bench with a lead or maybe a tie game, giving UNC a bit of a morale boost.

In general, Duke's going to have to weather the storm early, imo. UNC's a good team, a proud team. They played in the national championship game last year. And because they lost the first meeting to Duke, they're going to be the aggressor early and probably have the lead and control of the game early.

Duke's job will be to maintain contact and eventually respond with a run of our own. And then when the game is tight in the 2nd half, maybe some of the pressures on UNC will start to have an effect. I listed some below. Those are things they're not going to feel at the beginning of the game but could feel / should feel with 8 minutes left in a tie game.



Now, there are greater pressures being exerted on UNC Saturday. There's "don't get swept" pressure, Senior Night pressure, College Gameday primetime pressure, "Duke has won 5 of 6 and 12 of 16 and owns us" pressure, "we want a 1 seed" pressure, "our two best players have never beaten Duke at home" pressure, etc..

[flyingdutchdevil]

I think the key match up will be Tatum vs Hicks. I say this because I believe Tatum to be the most talented player in the ACC (well, and John Collins). Tatum's talent doesn't always lead to production (it has recently), but he's arguably the hardest 4 to guard in the ACC.

And Hicks is a fouling machine. He averages 5.4 fouls every 40 minutes. And Tatum will be the most talented 4 that Hicks has faced this year.

So, bottomline, if Tatum drives against Hicks, Hicks will a) foul or b) require help in which Meeks plays off Amile. If I'm Coach K, I'm asking Tatum to drive every chance he gets and plant Kennard, Jones, and Jackson on the 3pt line.

[kAzE]

The legend of Javin grows by the day...he's a center now? I guess he's a center the same way that the backup quarterback can sometimes be the fourth string kicker.

He has LITERALLY the exact same measurements as Amile Jefferson. They are both 6'9", 7'0" wingspan, and about 225-230 pounds. His game is almost entirely restricted to the paint area. He's not a good long range shooter, or even mid range shooter. Not much of an offensive game at all at this point. But he's hyper athletic and gets off the floor very quickly. I love his rebounding potential once he adds some strength. The point is, he's got a power forward's body (like Amile), but a center's game. He's a rebounder/interior defender/energy guy who should be around for 4 years.

The way we almost always prefer to have a shooter play the 4, I don't know how you could consider him a 4 on this team. By the time he adds about 10 pounds of muscle and becomes a regular in the rotation, he will almost surely play center exclusively.

[flyingdutchdevil]

He has LITERALLY the exact same measurements as Amile Jefferson. They are both 6'9", 7'0" wingspan, and about 225-230 pounds. He's also quicker and much bouncier. The way we almost always prefer to have a shooter play the 4, I don't know how you could consider him a 4 on this team, or really any Duke team. By the time he adds about 10 pounds of muscle and becomes a regular in the rotation, he will almost surely play center exclusively.

Hey- he could always develop a jumpshot! That's the favorite excuse here at DBR. Cuz that worked so well for Amile, Lance, the Plumlee brothers, etc.

Sarcasm aside, I agree with you: Javin looks to play 5 a lot (and maybe 4 if we want to go big).

[Aziggazoomba]

There is a theory (propounded by some of Roy's detractors on the Carolina side--maybe you've heard it) that he doesn't really care that much about the Duke rivalry and is more emotionally invested in the State rivalry. Evidence adduced to support the theory includes (i) his fairly relaxed-looking demeanor on the sideline of the last game, (ii) certain coaching missteps at the close of last year's game in Chapel Hill and (iii) his increasingly conciliatory approach to dealing with all things Duke (see, e.g., recent comments re G. Allen).

I, myself, don't buy it.

Do you?

[kAzE]

Hey- he could always develop a jumpshot! That's the favorite excuse here at DBR. Cuz that worked so well for Amile, Lance, the Plumlee brothers, etc.

Sarcasm aside, I agree with you: Javin looks to play 5 a lot (and maybe 4 if we want to go big).

I like to think of him as Amile's more athletic understudy. If he can follow in Amile's footsteps (but not literally, because we want Javin's feet to stay healthy), and keep improving every year, I'm very optimistic about Javin's potential to be a really important glue guy for the long term. He seems really intelligent, so perhaps one day he can take Amile's mantle of being the middle linebacker of our defense.

[Troublemaker]

There is a theory (propounded by some of Roy's detractors on the Carolina side--maybe you've heard it) that he doesn't really care that much about the Duke rivalry and is more emotionally invested in the State rivalry. Evidence adduced to support the theory includes (i) his fairly relaxed-looking demeanor on the sideline of the last game, (ii) certain coaching missteps at the close of last year's game in Chapel Hill and (iii) his increasingly conciliatory approach to dealing with all things Duke (see, e.g., recent comments re G. Allen).

I, myself, don't buy it.

Do you?

Nope, of course not. UNC's problem against Duke over the years is two things:
(1) UNC tends to comically overhelp towards the middle and leaves open 3-pt shooters, and Duke is a program tailor-made to take advantage.
(2) Duke's 4 is usually a really tough matchup for UNC's 4 to guard. Generally, Duke matches up better with teams that play 2 traditional bigs rather than teams that spread it out and drive relentlessly.

I have GIFs of examples of this stuff on page 2 of this thread.

[Troublemaker]

Hicks has been pretty bad since missing the first game against us, he is simply unable to stay on the floor.

vs. NC State: 7 min, 4 fouls, 7 points
vs. UVA: 25min, 3 fouls, 10 points
vs. Louisville: 14 min, 4 fouls, 0 points
vs. Pitt: 27 min, 4 fouls, 8 points
vs. UVA: 19 min, 5 fouls, 2 points

Now the question is, will he continue to soak up fouls playing at home, in his senior game, against a likely smaller player? Or will the refs swallow their whistles? He is obviously a major upgrade in rebounding over Maye, which we exploited in the first matchup, but Maye also shot well and made a bunch of outside jumpers that you don't expect him to make.

I temporarily don't have access to my kenpom subscription, but from memory, the bolded is almost certainly wrong. Maye has better rebounding rates than Hicks, who has never really dominated on the boards.

I do think UNC will outrebound Duke tomorrow, but that's only because I think we were flukily great on the boards in Cameron. Not because Hicks is a better rebounder than Maye.

[pfrduke]

I temporarily don't have access to my kenpom subscription, but from memory, the bolded is almost certainly wrong. Maye has better rebounding rates than Hicks, who has never really dominated on the boards.

I do think UNC will outrebound Duke tomorrow, but that's only because I think we were flukily great on the boards in Cameron. Not because Hicks is a better rebounder than Maye.

Their defensive rebounding rates are almost identical (around 16.5%) but Maye is better on offense (13% to 9%).

[ChillinDuke]

I think that is a cool tradition actually. Didn't we do that in the 1980's too?

It's a cool tradition. But cool =/= winning. If Duke did it, I'd probably support it. But to the extent it burned us early in a game, I'd be infuriated.


<snip>

Sometimes the diminished lineup has worked to Duke's advantage, sometimes it has not. Just a gut feeling, but I think it's going to be the latter tomorrow. I think Britt, Coker, and White will go to the bench with a lead or maybe a tie game, giving UNC a bit of a morale boost.

<snip>

I can't imagine that the "diminished" lineup is a positive EV play in the long-run. And for that reason, I can't support it as a "good idea" when a game is on the line, tradition or no tradition.

- Chillin

[Troublemaker]

Their defensive rebounding rates are almost identical (around 16.5%) but Maye is better on offense (13% to 9%).

Thank you.


It's a cool tradition. But cool =/= winning. If Duke did it, I'd probably support it. But to the extent it burned us early in a game, I'd be infuriated.

I can't imagine that the "diminished" lineup is a positive EV play in the long-run. And for that reason, I can't support it as a "good idea" when a game is on the line, tradition or no tradition.

I pretty much feel the same way. The main reason I wouldn't want Duke doing it, though, is because I don't want Duke to copy someone else's tradition. If Duke all of a sudden started doing it, it would seem lame to me.

[Aziggazoomba]

It's a cool tradition. But cool =/= winning. If Duke did it, I'd probably support it. But to the extent it burned us early in a game, I'd be infuriated.



I can't imagine that the "diminished" lineup is a positive EV play in the long-run. And for that reason, I can't support it as a "good idea" when a game is on the line, tradition or no tradition.

- Chillin

With all due respect--

It's not all about winning. It's a good thing that there's some room for doing the right thing and tipping the hat to the kids who have made big sacrifices (and usually with little or no recognition in return) over the last four years, and to their families.

It would be a better world if there were a little bit more of that kind of thinking and a little bit less of the win at all costs mentality.

In the end, I think it's a really fine tradition and it's one I'm proud of.

[There's plenty I'm not proud of, so I have to embrace what I can.]

[Indoor66]

With all due respect--

It's not all about winning. It's a good thing that there's some room for doing the right thing and tipping the hat to the kids who have made big sacrifices (and usually with little or no recognition in return) over the last four years, and to their families.

It would be a better world if there were a little bit more of that kind of thinking and a little bit less of the win at all costs mentality.

In the end, I think it's a really fine tradition and it's one I'm proud of.

[There's plenty I'm not proud of, so I have to embrace what I can.]

I agree with you, oh faded blue one. I think it is a fine tradition and recognizes the contributions of those least recognized.

[mgtr]

I temporarily don't have access to my kenpom subscription, but from memory, the bolded is almost certainly wrong. Maye has better rebounding rates than Hicks, who has never really dominated on the boards.

I do think UNC will outrebound Duke tomorrow, but that's only because I think we were flukily great on the boards in Cameron. Not because Hicks is a better rebounder than Maye.

Flukily - Not a word you run across everyday, but I love it. I may use it in the future, with, of course, proper attribution.

[flyingdutchdevil]

With all due respect--

It's not all about winning. It's a good thing that there's some room for doing the right thing and tipping the hat to the kids who have made big sacrifices (and usually with little or no recognition in return) over the last four years, and to their families.

It would be a better world if there were a little bit more of that kind of thinking and a little bit less of the win at all costs mentality.

In the end, I think it's a really fine tradition and it's one I'm proud of.

[There's plenty I'm not proud of, so I have to embrace what I can.]

This. 100%. UNC's academic scandal stems from "it's all about winning". I don't want Duke to follow that approach.

I don't really care about playing seniors - especially walk ons - during senior day because they are given an opportunity to be around the greatest college basketball program for 4 years.

[English]

This. 100%. UNC's academic scandal stems from "it's all about winning". I don't want Duke to follow that approach.

I don't really care about playing seniors - especially walk ons - during senior day because they are given an opportunity to be around the greatest college basketball program for 4 years.

Agreed. And to be clear, Duke absolutely DOES honor its seniors on Senior Night, including their families and including its walk-ons. Just because K chooses not to play the walk-ons for the first 15-75 seconds of the game doesn't somehow reflect a win-at-all-costs, screw-the-guys-who've-been-here-four-years mentality. The tradition is fine, but it's a token that shouldn't be made to seem like the noblest of grand gestures.

[kAzE]

We should start the game with the strategy of avoiding fouls at all costs, to try to prolong the first stoppage in game action as long as possible. We all know Roy doesn't use time-outs, so if we somehow can just keep the walk-ons on the court by never allowing the clock to stop, we'll win for sure :)

[Troublemaker]

Agreed. And to be clear, Duke absolutely DOES honor its seniors on Senior Night, including their families and including its walk-ons. Just because K chooses not to play the walk-ons for the first 15-75 seconds of the game doesn't somehow reflect a win-at-all-costs, screw-the-guys-who've-been-here-four-years mentality. The tradition is fine, but it's a token that shouldn't be made to seem like the noblest of grand gestures.

Exactly. I think it's a cool tradition, one UNC fans should be proud of, up until the point when they contend that they're the only program to honor walk-ons or that it's the only method to honor walk-ons.

Incidentally, Duke also has a cool tradition to honor managers. You know, the people who are even less appreciated than walk-ons, the people who carry the equipment bags and wipe the floors. Coach K and his family have a tradition of taking the managers out to a swanky dinner before Senior Night. I'm pretty sure Coach foots the bill.

But now we're just doing the typical Duke vs UNC "holier than thou" tape measuring contest. (And UNC really can't win one of those anymore.)

I also think DBR likes to honor managers. The highest spork level you can achieve, as far as I can tell, is the 11-spork Manager level. Which is above the 11-spork Hall-of-Fame level. The manager is held to higher esteem than a Hall-of-Fame player. Pretty cool, DBR.

[Billy Dat]

Incidentally, Duke also has a cool tradition to honor managers.

The Duke v UNC Manager's Game should be tonight then, right?

[Pghdukie]

When's the Manager's Game ? Tonight or Saturday morning ?

[cato]

There is a theory (propounded by some of Roy's detractors on the Carolina side--maybe you've heard it) that he doesn't really care that much about the Duke rivalry and is more emotionally invested in the State rivalry. Evidence adduced to support the theory includes (i) his fairly relaxed-looking demeanor on the sideline of the last game, (ii) certain coaching missteps at the close of last year's game in Chapel Hill and (iii) his increasingly conciliatory approach to dealing with all things Duke (see, e.g., recent comments re G. Allen).

I, myself, don't buy it.

Do you?

Hi Aziggazoomba,

I think there is some truth to this (well, not the State part). The fact that a lot of fans lose sight of is that the rivalry is just not as big of a deal to the players and staff as it is to the fans. Add in the fact that Roy came to UNC as a very successful coach (not nearly the same dynamic as K/Dean), and these tilts are not exactly circle the date games the way they are for fans.

I'm not saying the rivalry has no meaning to the staff and players, but they do not live and die for this stuff like we do.

Now, Roy obviously loves his players, and will be devastated if his seniors close out their career with an L in the Dome. Here's hoping for some Roy tears tomorrow.

Good luck (but not too much)!

[billy]

Has anyone seen the line? My filters at work block me from going to "gambling" sites....

[BandAlum83]

Has anyone seen the line? My filters at work block me from going to "gambling" sites...

Neither Sportsbook nor Bovada have Saturday lines posted yet.

I'm guessing UNC will open somewhere between 3.5 - 4.5 favorites. So put it at 4.0 pts.

[DukieInBrasil]

Hey- he could always develop a jumpshot! That's the favorite excuse here at DBR. Cuz that worked so well for Amile, Lance, the Plumlee brothers, etc.

Sarcasm aside, I agree with you: Javin looks to play 5 a lot (and maybe 4 if we want to go big).

i hope the pattern established by the bolded players holds true for Amile!!! You'll notice that all 4 of the highlighted players are in the NBA, with or without a jumpshot acquired at Duke. LT is now rather much a 3&D specialist in the NBA, while i don't think any of the Plumlees has a shot outside of the paint.

[pfrduke]

Neither Sportsbook nor Bovada have Saturday lines posted yet.

I'm guessing UNC will open somewhere between 3.5 - 4.5 favorites. So put it at 4.0 pts.

I bet it will be higher than that. 3.5-4 is usually the home court advantage, so I'd put the early line in the 6, 6.5 range.

[DukieInBrasil]

We should start the game with the strategy of avoiding fouls at all costs, to try to prolong the first stoppage in game action as long as possible. We all know Roy doesn't use time-outs, so if we somehow can just keep the walk-ons on the court by never allowing the clock to stop, we'll win for sure :)

unless they foul us.

[Aziggazoomba]

Exactly. I think it's a cool tradition, one UNC fans should be proud of, up until the point when they contend that they're the only program to honor walk-ons or that it's the only method to honor walk-ons.

Incidentally, Duke also has a cool tradition to honor managers. You know, the people who are even less appreciated than walk-ons, the people who carry the equipment bags and wipe the floors. Coach K and his family have a tradition of taking the managers out to a swanky dinner before Senior Night. I'm pretty sure Coach foots the bill.

But now we're just doing the typical Duke vs UNC "holier than thou" tape measuring contest. (And UNC really can't win one of those anymore.)

I also think DBR likes to honor managers. The highest spork level you can achieve, as far as I can tell, is the 11-spork Manager level. Which is above the 11-spork Hall-of-Fame level. The manager is held to higher esteem than a Hall-of-Fame player. Pretty cool, DBR.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that. At least I'm not. Some might (but there are all kinds of idiots in the world spouting off all kinds of nonsense).

That said, I do think Dean was (one of) the first to do it.

[Troublemaker]

I bet it will be higher than that. 3.5-4 is usually the home court advantage, so I'd put the early line in the 6, 6.5 range.

I'm going to pull the Price is Right maneuver on you and go 7, 7.5. And 8, 8.5 is possible. UNC's lines have been huge recently.

[Troublemaker]

I don't think anyone's suggesting that. At least I'm not. Some might (but there are all kinds of idiots in the world spouting off all kinds of nonsense).

That said, I do think Dean was (one of) the first to do it.

Yeah, not you. There are UNC fans who will contend that Coach K is a bad person for not starting the walk-ons, but you are not of their kind.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yeah, not you. There are UNC fans who will contend that Coach K is a bad person for not starting the walk-ons, but you are not of their kind.

The same fans who think Coach K is a bad person because he makes his athletes go to class?

[devildeac]

There is a theory (propounded by some of Roy's detractors on the Carolina side--maybe you've heard it) that he doesn't really care that much about the Duke rivalry and is more emotionally invested in the State rivalry. Evidence adduced to support the theory includes (i) his fairly relaxed-looking demeanor on the sideline of the last game, (ii) certain coaching missteps at the close of last year's game in Chapel Hill and (iii) his increasingly conciliatory approach to dealing with all things Duke (see, e.g., recent comments re G. Allen).

I, myself, don't buy it.

Do you?

Wait, in order for a NCSU-unc rivalry to exist, doesn't one of those teams (cough, wolfpack, cough) have to put forth a major effort/win every once in a while?

I see your point though. ;)

[MrPoon]

I'm going to pull the Price is Right maneuver on you and go 7, 7.5. And 8, 8.5 is possible. UNC's lines have been huge recently.

The lines should be high, they are the best team in the country - J. Bilas.

MrPoon will take those points all day long. This is a team that has played games close since the FSU result and we know this team is quite different today. It's a team that can't told a lead but its a team that doesn't get beaten by much.

[devildeac]

unless they foul us.

Not gonna happen (much). :rolleyes:

[Aziggazoomba]

The same fans who think Coach K is a bad person because he makes his athletes go to class?

It's not possible to avoid going there, is it?

That's cool. Your house, your rules.

Go Heels.

[flyingdutchdevil]

It's not possible to avoid going there, is it?

That's cool. Your house, your rules.

Go Heels.

Seriously? Our biggest rival is involved in the biggest academic scandal in NCAA history and you don't expect us to bring it up constantly?

Does the UNC fan base bring up Grayson Allen's tripping all the time?

This is low hanging fruit. It should be used, especially against your biggest rival.

[Indoor66]

Seriously? Our biggest rival is involved in the biggest academic scandal in NCAA history and you don't expect us to bring it up constantly?

Does the UNC fan base bring up Grayson Allen's tripping all the time?

This is low hanging fruit. It should be used, especially against your biggest rival.

I don't consider the UnCheat offenses to be low hanging fruit. They are the most egregious cheating offenses in the history of the NCAA. Nothing low there unless you are speaking of morals or honor. 👹😎

[Aziggazoomba]

Seriously? Our biggest rival is involved in the biggest academic scandal in NCAA history and you don't expect us to bring it up constantly?

Does the UNC fan base bring up Grayson Allen's tripping all the time?

This is low hanging fruit. It should be used, especially against your biggest rival.

I acknowledge all of that.

I just think it's amusing how reflexive it is. There needn't be any logical nexus--all roads lead there, immediately.

Listen, I get it. Plus, I get the entertainment value of it all (and I'd be the same way, or worse, were the shoe on the other foot--maybe in the next life--should I be so fortunate).

Anyway, I wasn't challenging it. You couldn't tell, but there was a sub-textual chuckle in my message.

[Billy Dat]

@BlueDevilNation 1h1 hour ago
Per Coach K everybody is ready to play vs UNC. Grayson isn't 100 percent but he can play, moderatiing his minutes.
Coach K also confirmed that Frank Jackson would start tomorrow. K said that Allen has not played as well in transition.
Hamstring, toe and ankle injuries for Allen this season per Coach K. He takes a mild shot at ACC schedule makers in quick turnarounds.
Amiles injury has not gone away but he is better and managing it well.
Coach K looks at the UNC game as an opportunity to take on one of the best reams on Senior night and appreciated the experience ...

[ChillinDuke]

With all due respect--

It's not all about winning. It's a good thing that there's some room for doing the right thing and tipping the hat to the kids who have made big sacrifices (and usually with little or no recognition in return) over the last four years, and to their families.

It would be a better world if there were a little bit more of that kind of thinking and a little bit less of the win at all costs mentality.

In the end, I think it's a really fine tradition and it's one I'm proud of.

[There's plenty I'm not proud of, so I have to embrace what I can.]

I couldn't agree more. It's not all about winning. But these points aren't mutually exclusive. There are plenty of ways to honor seniors without impacting game minutes. In fact, Duke does exactly this, as far as I can tell.

Hypothetically, there is an argument that could be made that by starting a walk-on, trailing by 4 by the time you sub them out, losing a game by 3, thereby dropping a seed line in the NCAAT and then getting upset by a 7-seed when you would have beaten the 8-seed on the first Saturday of the tournament, you altered the entire dynamic of your season. It's a far-out fact pattern, and a ridiculously low likelihood. But the logic works. Now, is that a win-at-all-costs mentality? Or is that just stupid?

I'm not opining on where I fall within that spectrum I just posed, rather stating that such a spectrum exists. YMMV.

- Chillin

[rasputin]

Wait, in order for a NCSU-unc rivalry to exist, doesn't one of those teams (cough, wolfpack, cough) have to put forth a major effort/win every once in a while?

I see your point though. ;)

It appears to me that the Wolfpack DO make a major effort: to roll over and play dead every time they play the Cheats.

[weezie]

It appears to me that the Wolfpack DO make a major effort: to roll over and play dead every time they play the Cheats.



OOOOOooooooh, cymbal crash!!!!!

[Aziggazoomba]

I couldn't agree more. It's not all about winning. But these points aren't mutually exclusive. There are plenty of ways to honor seniors without impacting game minutes. In fact, Duke does exactly this, as far as I can tell.

Hypothetically, there is an argument that could be made that by starting a walk-on, trailing by 4 by the time you sub them out, losing a game by 3, thereby dropping a seed line in the NCAAT and then getting upset by a 7-seed when you would have beaten the 8-seed on the first Saturday of the tournament, you altered the entire dynamic of your season. It's a far-out fact pattern, and a ridiculously low likelihood. But the logic works. Now, is that a win-at-all-costs mentality? Or is that just stupid?

I'm not opining on where I fall within that spectrum I just posed, rather stating that such a spectrum exists. YMMV.

- Chillin

The logic sorta works, except for the intervening and superseding factors comprising the last 38 or so minutes of the game. The thread connecting the first couple of minutes and the final result is rather tenuous, I'd say.

Now that I've said that, watch your fact pattern unfold tomorrow night, and I'll be standing here looking stupid.

[Billy Dat]

Duke v UNC is quantifiably the best rivalry
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/unc-duke-really-is-college-basketballs-best-rivalry/?ex_cid=story-twitter

[WVDUKEFAN]

I love the title of the thread and I love our chances in this game and the rest of the games this season. I still think we've had our ups and downs this season due to various reasons and look like two different teams at times. Fact is, we lost our last 3 games by a total of 10 points. I would love for us to adjust on defense and play the kind of defense we are used to seeing out of Duke teams. After Jackson's eruption against Florida State, I think he is one of our starting 5. He penetrated like a healthy Grayson Allen and is quicker. He shoots better than Jones and is probably just as good defensively. Even if he isn't quite as good, he's better on the other end. We should rest Grayson as much as possible in the next few days. I think we can win in the short term without him, and we need him to be healthy for the NCAA's. We need to continue to play Giles as much as we can. He's getting better, albeit not as fast as we had hoped, but the kid is on springs. He can jump over just about anyone. He's has grabbed some crucial rebounds and mad some vital put back baskets. I want to see this team get some swagger and kick some Carolina butt!

GO DUKE!

[Rich]

Decent ESPN article, but the analogy to school work is unbelievably laughable under the circumstances.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18807677/duke-blue-devils-north-carolina-tar-heels-carve-different-paths-rematch

If the NCAA tournament was a thesis deadline, the two teams that will meet in (what is obviously) the weekend's marquee game in Chapel Hill on Saturday, would be two obviously intelligent college students with vastly different approaches to organization and time management. The Tar Heels have gone about their studies with admirable day-to-day rigor...North Carolina has shown up to class, taken detailed notes and never missed an assignment. At this point, the professor knows exactly what he or she's going to get.

[Aziggazoomba]

Decent ESPN article, but the analogy to school work is unbelievably laughable under the circumstances.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18807677/duke-blue-devils-north-carolina-tar-heels-carve-different-paths-rematch

If the NCAA tournament was a thesis deadline, the two teams that will meet in (what is obviously) the weekend's marquee game in Chapel Hill on Saturday, would be two obviously intelligent college students with vastly different approaches to organization and time management. The Tar Heels have gone about their studies with admirable day-to-day rigor...North Carolina has shown up to class, taken detailed notes and never missed an assignment. At this point, the professor knows exactly what he or she's going to get.

I can't believe that wasn't done completely intentionally, tongue firmly in cheek.

[Chard]

I feel good about tomorrow night. This is a tested team and the "road" game is only a few miles away. Yes, a hostile environment but has that meant much lately? :)

I'm looking forward to seeing how Action Jackson plays on a big, big stage. He did well at Miami. He did even better against FSU.

I think we'll see more of Bolden and Giles simply because of the size on UNC's side but will we also see a lot of small ball? Virginia used that stratagem well. If Duke can hit perimeter shots it will open up a lot of lanes for Frank, Kennard and yes, Jefferson.

My biggest concern is foul trouble. Home team gets an advantage there and this won't be a civilized affair. Either way, I think Duke's roster will benefit from yet again playing a top 50 RPI opponent. This bodes well for the NCAA.

[Olympic Fan]

Coach K had a media availability today to talk about the team, the season and the Carolina game.

The only hard news to come out if it:

(1) Everybody is available (going into Friday's practice)

(2) Frank Jackson will remain in the starting lineup.

He talked a lot about Grayson and his struggle all season with injuries -- the hamstring against Kansas ... the toe that he hurt against App State ... the ankle he rolled against Clemson.

He also mentioned the schedule (although not pointing out that Duke played the toughest possible ACC schedule, while UNC played the easiest possible)

Asked the importance of winning the double bye, he kind of shrugged it off, pointing out the difference only comes after you have won three games. You're not guaranteed any more than one game.

I got the sense that even with UNC and the ACC Tournament coming up, his focus is on getting this team as sharp and as healthy for the NCAA Tournament as possible. That's not based on any direct quote, but his response to most questions.

He also talked a bit about his former assistants. He watched the end of the Northwestern-Michigan game live and saw the amazing play to win that one for Chris Collins. He noted that Wojo beat Xavier on the same night. And he didn't mention it, but Johnny Dawkins got his 20th win Thursday night on the road at South Florida. Plus Tommy Amaker looks like he'll have Harvard as the No. 2 seed in the new, four-team Ivy Tournament. K didn't like it when a writer suggested he might have to go up against a former aide in the tournament (something that's happed twice -- vs. Quin Snyder and Missouri in 2001 and vs. Mike Brey and Notre Dame in 2002).

[Kedsy]

After Jackson's eruption against Florida State, I think he is one of our starting 5. He penetrated like a healthy Grayson Allen and is quicker. He shoots better than Jones and is probably just as good defensively. Even if he isn't quite as good, he's better on the other end.

It's debatable whether Frank is quicker than a healthy Grayson. He certainly is not "just as good defensively" as Matt Jones. It's not even close.


I think we'll see more of Bolden and Giles simply because of the size on UNC's side...

In the first Duke/UNC game, Harry played 10 minutes and Marques played 7, both numbers just a bit below both those players' season averages and conference averages. So it's not clear that Coach K is doing anything differently against UNC due to their size. That said, Hicks didn't play in that game, so I guess you never know.

[SlapTheFloor]

I feel good about tomorrow night. This is a tested team and the "road" game is only a few miles away. Yes, a hostile environment but has that meant much lately? :)

I'm looking forward to seeing how Action Jackson plays on a big, big stage. He did well at Miami. He did even better against FSU.

I think we'll see more of Bolden and Giles simply because of the size on UNC's side but will we also see a lot of small ball? Virginia used that stratagem well. If Duke can hit perimeter shots it will open up a lot of lanes for Frank, Kennard and yes, Jefferson.

My biggest concern is foul trouble. Home team gets an advantage there and this won't be a civilized affair. Either way, I think Duke's roster will benefit from yet again playing a top 50 RPI opponent. This bodes well for the NCAA.

Frank did pretty well in the first game, too, if memory serves. Looking at the box score, he scored 11 point in 20 minutes. He'll have a bigger role in this game. Hopefully he can make up for some of Grayson's lost production. I expect Amile to do a lot better than 2 points and 6 rebounds this time as well.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Ignore the sloppy cut and paste, but I think with 40% less minutes, Jacksons numbers are pretty impressive. He's arguably a better rebounder on both ends, doesn't commit as many turnovers, and definitely a better shooter.


SEASON STATISTICS
Player MIN FGM FGA FTM FTA 3PM 3PA PTS OFFR DEFR REB AST TO STL BLK

Frank Jackson 684 103 220 52 66 40 104 298 22 46 68 52 35 15 2
Matt Jones 1017 85 213 14 21 44 129 228 35 55. 90. 59. 36. 48. 6

[CDu]

Ignore the sloppy cut and paste, but I think with 40% less minutes, Jacksons numbers are pretty impressive. He's arguably a better rebounder on both ends, doesn't commit as many turnovers, and definitely a better shooter.


SEASON STATISTICS
Player MIN FGM FGA FTM FTA 3PM 3PA PTS OFFR DEFR REB AST TO STL BLK

Frank Jackson 684 103 220 52 66 40 104 298 22 46 68 52 35 15 2
Matt Jones 1017 85 213 14 21 44 129 228 35 55. 90. 59. 36. 48. 6

Jackson is better offensively than Jones. Jones is not in the game for his offense. Jones has been - by far - our best perimeter defender.

[MrPoon]

Jackson is better offensively than Jones. Jones is not in the game for his offense.

Ask Justin Jackson why Matt Jones is in the game.....

[Indoor66]

Ask Justin Jackson why Matt Jones is in the game....

Yeah. Jackson and quite a few others.

[CDu]

Yeah. Jackson and quite a few others.

Yeah, I am amazed after all the lockdown jobs Jones has done that some folks here are still trying to find ways to get him off the court.

[BandAlum83]

I've been watching some of the prior year's matchups on ESPN classic. We re so lucky to have so many games archived on ESPNm

Man o man, we have had sme great teams. Some impressions since I've been watching:

Sheldon Williams: what a man under the boards and protecting the rim. The landlord indeed!

Danny Ferry: I remember he was good, but wow, he was really really good! What handles at 6'10' or '11. Great Passer, what a scorer.

Ball handlers and finishers, are you kidding me? Snyder, Duhon, Hurley, on and on.

Laettner: he really was one competitive SOB!

Billy King: we may talk about Matt Jones being our best defender today, but Billy King - I bet there are still ex players who have nightmares about him!

Grant Hill: Am I wrong in thinking I see a little of him in Tatum's game?

We have played such smothering man defense, but the refs sure do call games differently now. There was so much more contact without fouls!

All in all, we have been so blessed by such incredible quality over an extended period of time.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Ask Justin Jackson why Matt Jones is in the game...

Jackson scored 21 and led all UNC scorers. What should we ask him? Syracuse guards had 44 against us. I think Jones has had some good games defensively as well, but I can't agree he's the clear cut starter over Jackson, especially if Jackson continues to play like he did against FSU.

[Olympic Fan]

Jackson scored 21 and led all UNC scorers. What should we ask him? Syracuse guards had 44 against us. I think Jones has had some good games defensively as well, but I can't agree he's the clear cut starter over Jackson, especially if Jackson continues to play like he did against FSU.

Ask him what Jackson would have scored without Matt on him ... FWIW, both Coach K and Williams cited Jones' defensive performance vs. Jackson as a key to Duke's win.

Note: And as for the Syracuse guards and their 44 points. Jones primarily guarded Andrew White, their leading scorer at over 17 ppg ... he scored seven against Duke (and Jones).

[kAzE]

Jackson scored 21 and led all UNC scorers. What should we ask him?

How about why he was 1/6 from the floor when Matt Jones was the primary or help defender on him.

btw . . . that means he scored 18 points when guarded by players not named Matt Jones.

[tteettimes]

Early line---heels 6 point favs

[flyingdutchdevil]

Jackson scored 21 and led all UNC scorers. What should we ask him? Syracuse guards had 44 against us. I think Jones has had some good games defensively as well, but I can't agree he's the clear cut starter over Jackson, especially if Jackson continues to play like he did against FSU.

You are probably one of the only people on this forum advocating for Jones to not be in the starting line up. He is - by far - our best defensive player. On any team, he's a really good defensive player. On Duke - with mediocre backcourt defenders not named Jones - he is indispensable.

[Troublemaker]

Jackson scored 21 and led all UNC scorers. What should we ask him? Syracuse guards had 44 against us. I think Jones has had some good games defensively as well, but I can't agree he's the clear cut starter over Jackson, especially if Jackson continues to play like he did against FSU.

Jackson only scored 3 points against Matt. And against Syracuse, Matt held leading scorer Andrew White, who scores 17 a game, to only 7 points. Matt's a great wing defender.

Matt should start. And Frank should start while Grayson is banged up. Which could be the rest of the season.

[rsvman]

Yeah. Jones has been phenomenal. If you ever want to prove it to yourself, just focus your attention on Jones and whomever he is assigned to guard. Whenever the opponent is on offense, don't just watch the ball, but focus on Matt and his assignment. It will astound you.
This was a particularly entertaining exercise in the Syracuse game. The announcers never had any idea what was going on. They just kept saying that White was having a bad game or that he needed to step up, or whatever. All the while he was being completely and totally stifled by Jones. He couldn't even get his hands on the ball much. Throughout much of the game he was trying hard, but over time it was almost as if he had resigned himself to his fate. In the last eight minutes or so it was almost add if he had just thrown in the towel. Really a masterful defensive performance by Jones. One of many this season.

[OldPhiKap]

Ask Justin Jackson why Matt Jones is in the game....


Yeah. Jackson and quite a few others.


Yeah, I am amazed after all the lockdown jobs Jones has done that some folks here are still trying to find ways to get him off the court.

This, this, AND this.

Of course, I went to school with Billy King. Some of these Matt critics would have pulled their hair out.

[Kedsy]

Jackson scored 21 and led all UNC scorers. What should we ask him? Syracuse guards had 44 against us. I think Jones has had some good games defensively as well, but I can't agree he's the clear cut starter over Jackson, especially if Jackson continues to play like he did against FSU.

This was discussed in a different thread, but Luke Winn just covered this topic:



When Jones, the Blue Devils' starting three-man and perimeter stopper, was marking [Justin] Jackson in the teams' first meeting of 2017, at Cameron Indoor Stadium on Feb. 9, the results weren't pretty. Jackson shot 0-for-4 when Jones was his primary defender, 1-of-2 when Jones was his help defender, and drew one foul on Jones, producing a total of three points.

When Jackson was being checked by any other Duke player, or open in transition, he scored 18 points.



This was a particularly entertaining exercise in the Syracuse game. The announcers never had any idea what was going on. They just kept saying that the Syracuse player was having a bad game or that he needed to step up, or whatever. All the while he was being completely and totally stifled by Jones.

Yeah, I noticed that and was a bit miffed they weren't giving Matt his due in that game.

[MrPoon]

This was discussed in a different thread, but Luke Winn just covered this topic:





Yeah, I noticed that and was a bit miffed they weren't giving Matt his due in that game.

We should start a term, being "matt Jones-ed" or "Jonezed". As in a verb meaning not getting credit where it is due.

As in, Grayson's effort playing hurt is getting Jonezed.

Or K's ability to pick his starters gets Jonezed on this board at times....

[NSDukeFan]

Agreed. And to be clear, Duke absolutely DOES honor its seniors on Senior Night, including their families and including its walk-ons. Just because K chooses not to play the walk-ons for the first 15-75 seconds of the game doesn't somehow reflect a win-at-all-costs, screw-the-guys-who've-been-here-four-years mentality. The tradition is fine, but it's a token that shouldn't be made to seem like the noblest of grand gestures.

Doesn't UNC have another cute tradition to honour walkons and backups who work so hard in practice? I believe they leave them on the floor with an opposing team's fan base while the coaches and starters flee to the lockers. Sorry, couldn't resist. 😀

[WVDUKEFAN]

Jackson only scored 3 points against Matt. And against Syracuse, Matt held leading scorer Andrew White, who scores 17 a game, to only 7 points. Matt's a great wing defender.

Matt should start. And Frank should start while Grayson is banged up. Which could be the rest of the season.

I hope Matt or Frank or whoever Coach decides to start eats the Carolina back court alive. I apologize for rubbing anyone the wrong way.

[CDu]

I hope Matt or Frank or whoever Coach decides to start eats the Carolina back court alive. I apologize for rubbing anyone the wrong way.

Coach K has already essentially said he is starting BOTH. Jackson will start over the injured Allen. Just like against FSU.

[dukelion]

ESPN line has Duke +7

That seems pretty high to me.

[dukefan_828]

Doesn't UNC have another cute tradition to honour walkons and backups who work so hard in practice? I believe they leave them on the floor with an opposing team's fan base while the coaches and starters flee to the lockers. Sorry, couldn't resist. ��

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReINesMZ1nU

Yes,Duke left the court early in 2006 after FSU started storming the court before the game had ended (FSU got hit with a technical foul for the premature storming). The major difference was that Coach K stayed on the court with his final five players instead of tucking tail and running off leaving his players. I agree that it is sometimes best to remove a team before the floor is stormed and I support FSU's jubilation. I do think Roy showed his classlessness by deserting his benchwarmers.

[duke4ever19]

ESPN line has Duke +7

That seems pretty high to me.

To me, that speaks to the level of confidence Vegas has in the home team in the ACC this year.

I don't think we win this one and I think +6 or +7 is probably a good line.

[duketaylor]

"Sheldon Williams: what a man under the boards and protecting the rim. The landlord indeed!"

Do believe it was SheldEn. Sorry if I pick nits. He was certainly The Landlord!! Miss such a force inside for sure!!

Elton as well!! Think Harry could be that guy, not sure if it will happen this year.

[Troublemaker]

I hope Matt or Frank or whoever Coach decides to start eats the Carolina back court alive. I apologize for rubbing anyone the wrong way.

You know, it's not a completely outrageous suggestion you made, especially for certain matchups. But:
(1) It's completely moot right now. We only have 3 healthy perimeter players in the rotation. Those three will start.
(2) Using the UNC and Cuse games as evidence against Matt's defense wasn't a good choice.

[Ultrarunner]

To me, that speaks to the level of confidence Vegas has in the home team in the ACC this year.

I don't think we win this one and I think +6 or +7 is probably a good line.

Duke has been arguably the best ACC road team this season. I expect a close win.

[Olympic Fan]

Duke has been arguably the best ACC road team this season. I expect a close win.

I'd like to hear the argument -- Duke is 3-5 on the road.

Notre Dame is 5-3 with wins at Miami and Virginia Tech (two places Duke lost), plus wins at Pittsburgh, NC State and BC. They are the only ACC team to win in Blacksburg and one of two (FSU the other) to win at Miami.

Virginia is also 5-4 on the road with wins at Louisiville and at Notre Dame (also NC State, Clemson and BC)

Louisville is 5-4 on the road, although they really don't have any great road wins in the ACC.

UNC is also 5-4 on the road, although they lost to the only good teams they played on the road (Duke, Virginia and Miami, plus Georgia Tech) ... their best road win has been at Wake Forest.

I'm not saying Duke is bad on the road, but I think calling them the ACC's best road team is a stretch.

[duke4ever19]

Duke has been arguably the best ACC road team this season. I expect a close win.

Obviously, I hope you are correct and I am flat-out wrong. Heck, just last year, Duke won at the Dean Dome with about the same betting line in UNC's favor (if memory serves). I'd argue that this Duke team is better than that Duke team (and no, I'm not about to write a paragraph in defense of that) and that this year's incarnation of the Heels is not as good as last year's Final Four squad.


I'm just doing some off-the-cuff reflecting on why the line is +7. UNC is undefeated at home this season and it's also true that ACC home teams have played pretty darn well.

[CDu]

I'd like to hear the argument -- Duke is 3-5 on the road.

Notre Dame is 5-3 with wins at Miami and Virginia Tech (two places Duke lost), plus wins at Pittsburgh, NC State and BC. They are the only ACC team to win in Blacksburg and one of two (FSU the other) to win at Miami.

Virginia is also 5-4 on the road with wins at Louisiville and at Notre Dame (also NC State, Clemson and BC)

Louisville is 5-4 on the road, although they really don't have any great road wins in the ACC.

UNC is also 5-4 on the road, although they lost to the only good teams they played on the road (Duke, Virginia and Miami, plus Georgia Tech) ... their best road win has been at Wake Forest.

I'm not saying Duke is bad on the road, but I think calling them the ACC's best road team is a stretch.

The argument is that we are one of the only teams with multiple road wins against top-8 ACC programs (UVa and Notre Dame, with a chance at a third). I think we are the only one with three road wins over top-10 programs. We are 3-5 only because we are the only team unlucky enough to have to face ALL of the top-10 ACC teams on the road. I would put our resume up against anyone's in the conference.

[Ultrarunner]

The argument is that we are one of the only teams with multiple road wins against top-8 ACC programs (UVa and Notre Dame, with a chance at a third). I think we are the only one with three road wins over top-10 programs. We are 3-5 only because we are the only team unlucky enough to have to face ALL of the top-10 ACC teams on the road. I would put our resume up against anyone's in the conference.

And that four of our road losses involved games where Allen and Jefferson were absent and early in the integration of Tatum and Giles. If you look at average margin of loss on the road and strength of schedule on the road, Duke has done well.

[kAzE]

Do believe it was SheldEn.

This is probably the most often misspelled Duke player name on these forums. #2 is JJ "Reddick" and #3 is Tyler "Thorton."

[subzero02]

This is probably the most often misspelled Duke player name on these forums. #2 is JJ "Reddick" and #3 is Tyler "Thorton."

#4 "Justice" Winslow... he might be able to make an argument for #3 though; it's close.

[Troublemaker]

IF - it's a big if - Carolina decides to stay home on shooters more and overhelp less, the ability to finish at the rim or make drop-off passes will be huge. (If UNC doesn't stay home on shooters, then yes, Duke will have to make its threes like we did in Cameron.)

[Sixthman]

Win or lose, imo Duke will be a better team after this game. The main page write-up on the game says both teams will, and I'm paraphrasing, play with guts and intensity. I think that's right, but also that this is a Duke team that has not yet learned to bring it every game. I think back to the recent Miami loss. It seemed like Miami was playing more "Duke-like" than we were. They beat us to 50/50 balls, they played full out the full 40. That won't happen tonight, and, I trust that our coaches and senior leaders can carry that intensity into the tournaments to follow.

Coach K some times talks about his teams as good, very good or great teams. Whatever we have been this year, we have not been a great team. What do we need to get there, and can we get there so late in the season?

First, as everyone understands, we need to be healthy. I'd like to add to that discussion that we need mental health as well as physical. Grayson lost his mental edge with the whole tripping circus such that even when healthy he has not been the physically aggressive driver we need him to be (of course, he has rarely been physically healthy since the circus). I think there are signs of other positive attitudes which could be transformative. Harry Giles, who has to be frustrated about his season (understatement of the century), was at the FSU game quite obviously the bench leader. He was smiling, cheering, and rallying his teammates in a way I had not seen before from him. Doesn't sound like much, but it really did seem significant to me. I think that win or lose, Duke will be mentally tougher going forward as a result of this game.

We need our guys who can drive to the rim to be more physical. Tatum, who gets to the rim without contact as well as anyone I recall in a Duke uniform, fades away from the rim when contact seems inevitable. I'm hoping the intensity of Duke-Carolina and the ability of Carolina's bigs might make him see the merits of absorbing the contact and going to the line. He's going to have to learn this for the next level anyway. I've got the same thought about Grayson, except I see his reluctance to take contact at the rim as new and a product of injury and the fear of seeing video of some opponent writhing on the floor after getting run into by Grayson played over and over to music provided by Seth Greenberg and company. After all, basketball is not a contact sport. I'm hoping we might find in the toughness and intensity of the game tonight a new appreciation for physical aggression on offense. After all, if we can drive and get to the line, we will score, and it will open up the three point shot.

This Duke team has in two recent losses been too passive on offense. It is a fair description of our offense during much of the Syracuse and Miami losses as four guys standing around watching the fifth dribble, and then someone shoots. It was miserable to watch. We could get killed tonight and it will look nothing like that. For Duke to be great, we need to play together as a team on offense, more movement and a better understanding of who should be taking what shot in a given situation. We had that against FSU and we had it at home against UNC. I believe we'll have it tonight and I hope the rest of the season.

Finally, while the numbers don't show it over the whole season, I believed this Duke team can be a great rebounding team. We were great last time out against Carolina. Again, that intensity and engagement making a difference.

We're big underdogs tonight, and I can see how a double digit loss could happen. Carolina is at home, coming off an embarrassing loss, and want to avenge their loss in Cameron. Still, I think if both teams are healthy, and both teams play to their full potential, Duke is the better team. Don't forget, the Virginia team UNC just got destroyed by was prior to that game in a tailspin of losses. Out of nowhere, they played to their full potential. That's what happens in big games.

[Chard]

IF - it's a big if - Carolina decides to stay home on shooters more and overhelp less, the ability to finish at the rim or make drop-off passes will be huge. (If UNC doesn't stay home on shooters, then yes, Duke will have to make its threes like we did in Cameron.)

I'll take option 2 all night long.

I'm guessing Coach Williams may try to stay home on shooters this go around. Have to try something different, right?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

WOOT WOOT WOOT

It's Em-Effin' Game Day!

Let's Go Duke!
Let's Go Duke!

[budwom]

with a hobbled Allen, seven points is a reasonable spread. I just as soon he doesn't play so he can (finally) get well.

[dukebluesincebirth]

with a hobbled Allen, seven points is a reasonable spread. I just as soon he doesn't play so he can (finally) get well.

If he's not close to healthy, I completely agree. An unhealthy Grayson on the court hurts our chances tonight, and in future games.

[BandAlum83]

This is probably the most often misspelled Duke player name on these forums. #2 is JJ "Reddick" and #3 is Tyler "Thorton."

Mea Culpa. I knew how to spell it while he was here. And I'm getting old.

[Olympic Fan]

The argument is that we are one of the only teams with multiple road wins against top-8 ACC programs (UVa and Notre Dame, with a chance at a third). I think we are the only one with three road wins over top-10 programs. We are 3-5 only because we are the only team unlucky enough to have to face ALL of the top-10 ACC teams on the road. I would put our resume up against anyone's in the conference.

How do you get that?

Duke has a road win at No. 20 (at the time we played them) Notre Dame and No. 14 (when we played them) Virginia.

Neither is a top 10 program.

And our third road win was at Wake Forest, which hasn't been close to the top 10 at any point this season.

And the comment about "multiple road wins against top 8 ACC programs" is essentially wrong too. Duke has wins over 12-5 Notre Dame and 10-7 Virginia ... but Notre Dame has wins over 10-7 Virginia Tech and 10-7 Miami. That's multiple wins against teams that are tied with our second best win. Then on top of that, they have three other road wins to our one.

Now, win at Chapel Hill and that changes the argument. But you can't use that possibility to argue that Duke will win there because Duke is the ACC's best road team.

I agree that there are reasons that our road record has not been great -- we HAVE played the toughest road record and we HAVE had to go on the road without key players. But the fact is that our PERFORMANCE on the road has not been the best in ACC ... maybe not the second or third best.

[BandAlum83]

First, as everyone understands, we need to be healthy. I'd like to add to that discussion that we need mental health as well as physical. Grayson lost his mental edge with the whole tripping circus such that even when healthy he has not been the physically aggressive driver we need him to be (of course, he has rarely been physically healthy since the circus). I think there are signs of other positive attitudes which could be transformative. Harry Giles, who has to be frustrated about his season (understatement of the century), was at the FSU game quite obviously the bench leader. He was smiling, cheering, and rallying his teammates in a way I had not seen before from him. Doesn't sound like much, but it really did seem significant to me. I think that win or lose, Duke will be mentally tougher going forward as a result of this game.


I really have to admit I am getting really, really annoyed and tired of people speculating as to a certain player's mental health, edge, disposition, etc. On this board, on TV and on the internets.

The young man is injured and playing through it!

in the 4 games before he rolled his ankle, when he was averaging in the 20s and had the explosiveness he's known for, did you anyone claim he was afraid to drive to the rim because someone might fall down?

Give me a break! Remember that monster jam against Carolina the last game? Remember his stat line?

JUST. GIVE. IT. A. REST. ALREADY!!!

ETA: Did I mention this is really starting to piss me off? WTH do you know about his state of mind?? Really?? And edited to redact a bunch of the rest of your post so everyone here doesn't have to scroll through it to get to my point that the bolded part just really really stinks.

And BTW, K also refers to teams as special.

[King of Defense]

And BTW, K also refers to teams as special.

Indeed he does -- has done it for decades. IIRC, "special" was even the sideline audible for the Laettner-Davis-Laettner in-bounds play that got Duke past UConn in 1990.

I have a question that is probably off-topic here, but I can't figure out where else to ask, and it doesn't seem worthy of a new thread. (I'm new to the boards, so please feel free to suggest what I should do with it.) I'm curious to know why Justin Robinson made a cameo appearance against FSU. Pagliuca's a senior, of course, but Robinson's a redshirt freshman. Is that a signal that he might be transferring, and that was a last chance to appear at Cameron?

I was always a David Robinson fan, so I'd certainly hate to see Justin go. But if he wants any significant playing time, I could hardly blame him.

[MrPoon]

Regardless of who is playing PG/ball handler, key to me is turnovers.
Can't give easy fast break shots on the road.

[kAzE]

Indeed he does -- has done it for decades. IIRC, "special" was even the sideline audible for the Laettner-Davis-Laettner in-bounds play that got Duke past UConn in 1990.

I have a question that is probably off-topic here, but I can't figure out where else to ask, and it doesn't seem worthy of a new thread. (I'm new to the boards, so please feel free to suggest what I should do with it.) I'm curious to know why Justin Robinson made a cameo appearance against FSU. Pagliuca's a senior, of course, but Robinson's a redshirt freshman. Is that a signal that he might be transferring, and that was a last chance to appear at Cameron?

I was always a David Robinson fan, so I'd certainly hate to see Justin go. But if he wants any significant playing time, I could hardly blame him.

I don't think Justin came to Duke with the expectation of playing major minutes.

[Troublemaker]

Indeed he does -- has done it for decades. IIRC, "special" was even the sideline audible for the Laettner-Davis-Laettner in-bounds play that got Duke past UConn in 1990.

I have a question that is probably off-topic here, but I can't figure out where else to ask, and it doesn't seem worthy of a new thread. (I'm new to the boards, so please feel free to suggest what I should do with it.) I'm curious to know why Justin Robinson made a cameo appearance against FSU. Pagliuca's a senior, of course, but Robinson's a redshirt freshman. Is that a signal that he might be transferring, and that was a last chance to appear at Cameron?

I was always a David Robinson fan, so I'd certainly hate to see Justin go. But if he wants any significant playing time, I could hardly blame him.

From the play by play, it looks like JRob was subbed in so Pagliuca, a senior, could sub out and be showered with applause from the crowd:

http://i.imgur.com/8IVIM6E.png

I wouldn't read anything into it beyond that.

Also, I highly doubt a walk-on like JRob (albeit a preferred walk-on) expects to play his redshirt freshman year, particularly on a team loaded with talent.

[King of Defense]

I don't think Justin came to Duke with the expectation of playing major minutes.

I don't think so, either. But sometimes people can change their minds.

I don't mean to start a rumor here -- I have absolutely no info on his status, for better or for worse, and I've been scouring the web quite a bit. I just found it curious that he'd get a cameo like that on Senior Night.

It could easily be that he's played the least, and K just wanted to reward him with a few seconds of ACC play.

EDIT: I think Troublemaker's explanation makes sense.

[hsheffield]

1979-last game of the Ivy football season:

Yale has dominated everyone all year and is undefeated.
Harvard is struggling and has won 2 games.

Harvard comes to the Yale Bowl and wins 22-7

Moral: all bets are off for big rivalry games.

(ok, I know Ivy League football isn't big, but it matters to those involved...)

I wonder if anyone has studied how often rivalry games go as predicted? My guess is less often than regular season games. The intense emotions seem to cloud expected outcomes. In a sense, NCAA tournament games are like rivalry games because so much is on the line. The surprising wins partly define March madness.

so...I would argue that it doesn't really matter what Vegas says. There's no telling who's going to have a Capel or Austin Rivers moment. K is a master of managing emotions and hopefully that will give us an advantage.

besides, since our players actually go to class, it's only right that we should win.

[Kedsy]

I wonder if anyone has studied how often rivalry games go as predicted? My guess is less often than regular season games.

I wrote an article on this (http://bluedevilnation.net/2013/02/dukecarolina-anything-can-happen-right/) a few years ago, in which I compared the Duke/UNC series with both the Duke/Wake Forest series and the Duke/Clemson series. My conclusion was that your guess is not correct:



Bottom line, in the Duke/UNC rivalry the team you expect to win usually does. About the same, or even more so, than in Duke's series with other ACC teams.


That said, I have a good feeling about Duke tonight. Hopefully my unsubstantiated feelings can beat out history.

[rsvman]

Well, we certainly had no business winning the game there last season, especially after Matt got injured and sat out the rest of the game. Last year is proof that it can at least sometimes be hard to predict what's going to happen in a rivalry game.

[Kedsy]

Well, we certainly had no business winning the game there last season, especially after Matt got injured and sat out the rest of the game. Last year is proof that it can at least sometimes be hard to predict what's going to happen in a rivalry game.

Probably about as much business as we had beating #7 Virginia in the game before that. Certainly more business than NC State had of beating us this year. Perhaps those games are proof that it can at least sometimes be hard to predict what's going to happen in any conference game. But if you look at the series of games as a whole, the underdog doesn't really win more often in Duke/UNC rivalry games than similar underdogs do in Duke's non-rivalry conference series.

[BandAlum83]

From a not too shabby article in the News and Observer:


Tatum is a driver and slasher who is just now, late in what figures to be his one year of college basketball, getting some post touches in the flow of Duke’s offense. Hicks, 6-9, 242, while a prototypical North Carolina big man in many ways, has both the quickness to keep up with Tatum and an uncanny propensity for fouling that he’ll have to overcome to do that, while having the kind of size and post moves to potentially take advantage of Tatum at the other end.



Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/luke-decock/article136278053.html#storylink=cpy:

I do think it's worth a read. Would love to know what the analysts on this board think of the analysis in the article, especially with regard to the impact of Hicks being available to play this game

[vick]

How do you get that?

Duke has a road win at No. 20 (at the time we played them) Notre Dame and No. 14 (when we played them) Virginia.

Neither is a top 10 program.

And our third road win was at Wake Forest, which hasn't been close to the top 10 at any point this season.

And the comment about "multiple road wins against top 8 ACC programs" is essentially wrong too. Duke has wins over 12-5 Notre Dame and 10-7 Virginia ... but Notre Dame has wins over 10-7 Virginia Tech and 10-7 Miami. That's multiple wins against teams that are tied with our second best win. Then on top of that, they have three other road wins to our one.

Now, win at Chapel Hill and that changes the argument. But you can't use that possibility to argue that Duke will win there because Duke is the ACC's best road team.

I agree that there are reasons that our road record has not been great -- we HAVE played the toughest road record and we HAVE had to go on the road without key players. But the fact is that our PERFORMANCE on the road has not been the best in ACC ... maybe not the second or third best.

I assume CDu meant top-10 in the ACC. The difference in our road schedule vs. UNC's is striking (https://twitter.com/RealJayWilliams/status/836797396122222593).

[BandAlum83]

I wrote an article on this (http://bluedevilnation.net/2013/02/dukecarolina-anything-can-happen-right/) a few years ago, in which I compared the Duke/UNC series with both the Duke/Wake Forest series and the Duke/Clemson series. My conclusion was that your guess is not correct:



That said, I have a good feeling about Duke tonight. Hopefully my unsubstantiated feelings can beat out history.

Great article, Kedsy! Too bad I can't spork you.

[BandAlum83]

We just decided; MrsBandAlum and I will be going to the Watch Party tonight at the Buckhead Saloon in Atlanta.

Any other DBR posters out here thinking of going? We'd love to meet you!

[Ultrarunner]

How do you get that?

Duke has a road win at No. 20 (at the time we played them) Notre Dame and No. 14 (when we played them) Virginia.

Neither is a top 10 program.

And our third road win was at Wake Forest, which hasn't been close to the top 10 at any point this season.

And the comment about "multiple road wins against top 8 ACC programs" is essentially wrong too. Duke has wins over 12-5 Notre Dame and 10-7 Virginia ... but Notre Dame has wins over 10-7 Virginia Tech and 10-7 Miami. That's multiple wins against teams that are tied with our second best win. Then on top of that, they have three other road wins to our one.

Now, win at Chapel Hill and that changes the argument. But you can't use that possibility to argue that Duke will win there because Duke is the ACC's best road team.

I agree that there are reasons that our road record has not been great -- we HAVE played the toughest road record and we HAVE had to go on the road without key players. But the fact is that our PERFORMANCE on the road has not been the best in ACC ... maybe not the second or third best.

A lot of this will be which benchmarks people use. We've had road wins against (Pomeroy) #5 Florida and #6 Virginia. Win tonight and that's gets us to three.

I look at the quality of the losses, four of which came with either Grayson or Amile out or, in the case of Grayson at Syracuse, so physically compromised as to be ineffective, and see a team that has fought through an injury riddled season to post solid improvement without two of its top three defenders (1. Matt, 2. Amile, 3. Grayson). The last two losses were last second affairs that likely would have been wins with a healthy Grayson. The FSU and Louisville games would have been more competitive than they were with Amile. The current 3-5 record could easily have been 5-3 or better against the best the ACC has to offer.

This team is tough one the road. Now if only we could have both Amile and Grayson healthy . . .

[Kedsy]

We've had road wins against (Pomeroy) #5 Florida and #6 Virginia.

Florida was not a road game. It was at a neutral site (Madison Square Garden).

[Ultrarunner]

Florida was not a road game. It was at a neutral site (Madison Square Garden).

Kedsy, the team was not at home. They were, therefore, on the road. My original statement was that they are better than their record suggests as a road team. No mention was made of venue, road vs. neutral site.

[DU82]

I don't think so, either. But sometimes people can change their minds.

I don't mean to start a rumor here -- I have absolutely no info on his status, for better or for worse, and I've been scouring the web quite a bit. I just found it curious that he'd get a cameo like that on Senior Night.

It could easily be that he's played the least, and K just wanted to reward him with a few seconds of ACC play.

EDIT: I think Troublemaker's explanation makes sense.

From my observation from the stands, Troublemaker is exactly right. Coach put Nick in with just under a minute to go, and then when the clock stopped with 6 seconds to go, Coach wanted to take him out to an ovation. He looked down the bench, and for some reason picked Robinson rather than, say, Jack White.

[superdave]

The frontcourt minutes last game vs Unc were about what you'd expect vs a bigger team: Amile 30, Harry 10, Marques 7. Wonder if we see similar minutes tonight? I think Amile plays more. But I do think we need some scoring punch and rebounding out of Harry tonight in order to win.

We out-rebounded them 31-30 last time, which is sort of a miracle. Hoping to see a similar outcome tonight. That was a big part of the win.

Meeks averaged 15/8 in the four games after the Duke loss. He averages 3.7 offensive rebounds per game. Keeping him off the offensive boards will be big; Bradley and Jackson too.

[hsheffield]

I wrote an article on this (http://bluedevilnation.net/2013/02/dukecarolina-anything-can-happen-right/) a few years ago, in which I compared the Duke/UNC series with both the Duke/Wake Forest series and the Duke/Clemson series. My conclusion was that your guess is not correct:



That said, I have a good feeling about Duke tonight. Hopefully my unsubstantiated feelings can beat out history.


wow, is DBR fantastic or what?? great article by Kedsy saying that over time, the higher ranked team usually wins.

now Kedsy, if you had calculated a p value, I'd be REALLY impressed:cool:

[brlftz]

Kedsy, the team was not at home. They were, therefore, on the road. My original statement was that they are better than their record suggests as a road team. No mention was made of venue, road vs. neutral site.

That's a novel definition for "road game"

[BluDvlsN1]

There has been a lot of discussion regarding the what if's of the game
with a considerable amount of sophisticated analysis to support a
favored position.

I go back to last year's game at unc.

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=20160217

Brandon was exhausted walking to the team bus. We were real thin on players.
but we willed a way to win.

This year we have more options to contribute to the mix.
Coach K will have that figured out.

It will, as always be a historic battle, I just think we're more mentally tough
and will find a way to win.

Here's to a very quiet Dean dome and the unc fans whistling past the Franklin St graveyard,
after the game.

[Devilwin]

Put Uncle Matt on Justin Jackson. That outta do it...

[Sixthman]

I really have to admit I am getting really, really annoyed and tired of people speculating as to a certain player's mental health, edge, disposition, etc. On this board, on TV and on the internets.

The young man is injured and playing through it!

in the 4 games before he rolled his ankle, when he was averaging in the 20s and had the explosiveness he's known for, did you anyone claim he was afraid to drive to the rim because someone might fall down?

Give me a break! Remember that monster jam against Carolina the last game? Remember his stat line?

JUST. GIVE. IT. A. REST. ALREADY!!!

ETA: Did I mention this is really starting to piss me off? WTH do you know about his state of mind?? Really?? And edited to redact a bunch of the rest of your post so everyone here doesn't have to scroll through it to get to my point that the bolded part just really really stinks.

And BTW, K also refers to teams as special.


It is not speculation to say that a player or team lacks engagement, toughness, edge, aggressiveness or the frame of mind they typically display or one typically sees of the team. These are efforts to describe something one actually sees and to ascribe to it an explanation which makes sense. This is completely different from saying the player is a head case, seems depressed or that a public figure is a narcissist.

There is a mental -- a psychological -- aspect to competition, particularly to basketball. To take discussing that aspect of the game off the table is a very strange demand. I might be wrong that Grayson's lack of aggressiveness has psychological as well as physical origins but I am not wrong that he is less aggressive, I'm not wrong that there is a psychological component to the game, and I'm not wrong that the circumstances Grayson has endured might cause a person to respond by reducing aggressiveness.

I agree that much of the discussion about Grayson during what I referred to as the circus stage crossed into the foolish and inappropriate. Most of this involved diagnosis of what state of mind caused Grayson to blah blah blah. It was offensive. It was sometimes plainly ignorant. My comments here are not of the same nature or character.

[Ultrarunner]

That's a novel definition for "road game"

Not really. Admittedly, it lacks the nuance of home, road, semi-home, halfway home, semi-away, semi in a ditch, but I find the simpler terms easier to work with. If you really want to get into the Duke never plays a true road game discussion, head over to IC. It's like catnip there.

[BandAlum83]

It is not speculation to say that a player or team lacks engagement, toughness, edge, aggressiveness or the frame of mind they typically display or one typically sees of the team. These are efforts to describe something one actually sees and to ascribe to it an explanation which makes sense. This is completely different from saying the player is a head case, seems depressed or that a public figure is a narcissist.

There is a mental -- a psychological -- aspect to competition, particularly to basketball. To take discussing that aspect of the game off the table is a very strange demand. I might be wrong that Grayson's lack of aggressiveness has psychological as well as physical origins but I am not wrong that he is less aggressive, I'm not wrong that there is a psychological component to the game, and I'm not wrong that the circumstances Grayson has endured might cause a person to respond by reducing aggressiveness.

I agree that much of the discussion about Grayson during what I referred to as the circus stage crossed into the foolish and inappropriate. Most of this involved diagnosis of what state of mind caused Grayson to blah blah blah. It was offensive. It was sometimes plainly ignorant. My comments here are not of the same nature or character.

I will not get into a protracted discussion on this. Just know I disagree.

And 9F

[kAzE]

I think we match up well against them offensively. They are going to have a tough time staying with Jayson Tatum if Hicks is guarding him, so that will be a matchup to watch for. The main thing we have to do to win this game is hold our own on the glass. I think we definitely make it closer than 7 points, and I give us a 50/50 shot to win it. It will be a good game.

LETS GO DUKE!

[duke4ever19]

Kedsy, the team was not at home. They were, therefore, on the road. My original statement was that they are better than their record suggests as a road team. No mention was made of venue, road vs. neutral site.

There are three recognized categories that the committee considers: (1)Home games, (2)Road/away games, (3)Neutral court games.

I know what you are saying (the team was playing elsewhere), but honestly, that doesn't count as a road win. In fact, often these neutral venues draw major Duke support and become very friendly environments.

Florida counts as a neutral court win and should be considered as such.

[CoachJ10]

As I said in the first game...I dont think we are a good matchup for UNC. In addition, we have 5 of the 7 most talented players on the court.

I am confident that we will come out with energy and focus. If we play with discipline and execution...we will win tonight.

[devildeac]

Wild speculation:

1. Tatum picks up 2 early fouls. On the bus ride over to the nose dome.

2. hicks finally picks up his first MMA-type foul with 3:00 remaining. In the game. No touch fouls for him today.

:rolleyes::mad:

I'm a glass half-empty character. :(

[iragsdale]

We just decided; MrsBandAlum and I will be going to the Watch Party tonight at the Buckhead Saloon in Atlanta.

Any other DBR posters out here thinking of going? We'd love to meet you!

I'm planning on going!

[Native]

Wild speculation:

1. Tatum picks up 2 early fouls. On the bus ride over to the nose dome.

The real question is: how many technicals will Daniel Ewing get?

[DukieInKansas]

With all due respect--

It's not all about winning. It's a good thing that there's some room for doing the right thing and tipping the hat to the kids who have made big sacrifices (and usually with little or no recognition in return) over the last four years, and to their families.

It would be a better world if there were a little bit more of that kind of thinking and a little bit less of the win at all costs mentality.

In the end, I think it's a really fine tradition and it's one I'm proud of.

[There's plenty I'm not proud of, so I have to embrace what I can.]

I think it is a great tradition, too.

[-jk]

DBR Chat (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/misc.php?do=cchatbox) is open!

If it gets a bit slow, refresh the page. If you're on a mobile device, you'll need to select "Blue" at the bottom.

As always - please follow the DBR Posting Guidelines.

Let's Go Duke!

-jk

[DU82]

Our blue is better! Especially when we wear it (instead of black!)

[gotoguy]

Our blue is better! Especially when we wear it (instead of black!)

Watching the game in St. Lucia on vacation. Cricket to follow on the local ESPN feed

9F 9F 9F!!!

[WVDUKEFAN]

Let's GO DUKE!

[riverside6]

Live tempo-based stats for Duke/UNC...

http://www.scacchoops.com/duke-at-unc-basketball-live-stats-03042017

[WVDUKEFAN]

Would love to see Jones start hitting. He gets some great open looks.

[gocanes0506]

Would love to see Jones start hitting. He gets some great open looks.

This team would be dangerous if he would.

[rsvman]

Jackson and Jefferson off to a good start. Jones strong on d, as usual

[gocanes0506]

Outside of his travel, Giles has done well when in

[kmspeaks]

It would appear the Hansbrough travel rules are in effect tonight.

[rsvman]

Hicks can apparently take as many steps as he wants

[rsvman]

Berry is on fire.

[gocanes0506]

The Grayson ain't getting a tripping call is in effect as well

[jipops]

Happy we've been able to keep this competitive so far. Don't expect a win tonight at all, but if we can keep it close that would be huge.

[gocanes0506]

So can we call every contact after the whistle(which happens evey play) a dead ball contact technical?

[WHOneedsSOX]

So can we call every contact after the whistle(which happens evey play) a dead ball contact technical?

Well he did elbow him in the face.

[ncexnyc]

Can we please get Bolden on the floor, because Giles looks completely lost out there.

[gocanes0506]

Can we please get Bolden on the floor, because Giles looks completely lost out there.

What game are you watching?

[jipops]

If Luke doesn't win ACC player of the year, the system is rigged.

[ncexnyc]

What game are you watching?
He's late on defense on nearly every play.

[jipops]

What game are you watching?

He's watching the same one I am. Harry is an enormous defensive liability. His help D is non-existent. K shouldn't play him in the 2nd. Maybe shouldn't play him much at all going forward.

[SCMatt33]

If you told me before the start that Berry would make more threes than Duke as a team in the first half, I'd jump through hoops to take a score of down 2.

[dukelion]

I can't believe how many end of half situations we've totally botched this season......just keeps happening.

[ncexnyc]

Solid first half, we're right where we need to be.

[DrChainsaw]

Classy Carolina hag behind Allen on that last throw-in....

[-jk]

I can't believe how many end of half situations we've totally botched this season...just keeps happening.

That was a really quick 5...

-jk

[rsvman]

Yes, but that 5-second call was bogus. It was four. The ref was speeding up his count as it went along. He must've been a drummer in a garage band. Always rushing.

[kmspeaks]

I can't believe how many end of half situations we've totally botched this season...just keeps happening.

We had help from the man with the whistle on that one.

[Coballs]

I can't believe how many end of half situations we've totally botched this season...just keeps happening.

In fairness, that was an absolutely terrible 5 second call. Watch it again...it was a 4 second call or even less. The ref marked off the 1st second immediately as Grayson received the ball and marked off the 5th second after the ball had been released.

[91devil]

MJordan: "The Ceiling is the Roof".

Words to live by, MJ.

[gocanes0506]

He's watching the same one I am. Harry is an enormous defensive liability. His help D is non-existent. K shouldn't play him in the 2nd. Maybe shouldn't play him much at all going forward.

Yea until he helps earlier and everyone complains he comes over too early and his man getting dunks. Outside of the travel by hicks when he had luke pinned deep, he has tried to rotate over.

And on the last 3, every coach tells their big man to flash to the outside to push the opposing guard higher, then get back to your man ASAP. Its up to K to change that guidance.

[jipops]

Memo to Tatum: If Luke Maye is on you with an open lane, Drive!! Do not pull up.

[Owen Meany]

Yes, but that 5-second call was bogus. It was four. The ref was speeding up his count as it went along. He must've been a drummer in a garage band. Always rushing.

Refs make mistakes. You seldom see a rushed count, however. But refs use specific arm motions to show exactly what their count is. When you watch the replay you clearly see that he blew his whistle before he got to 5. He had just reached his chest and was starting to change direction when he blew the whistle. But he sure tried to rush through a shortened 5 count motion after he blew the whistle. I don't know how you can possibly justify calling 5 seconds when you have yet to reach 5 on your own count. Weird.

[jipops]

Yea until he helps earlier and everyone complains he comes over too early and his man getting dunks. Outside of the travel by hicks when he had luke pinned deep, he has tried to rotate over.

And on the last 3, every coach tells their big man to flash to the outside to push the opposing guard higher, then get back to your man ASAP. Its up to K to change that guidance.

Except he was chasing a guy already outside the lane instead of rotating over. I really do want Harry to be effective for us, but I just don't see it happening.

[SoCalDukeFan]

MJordan: "The Ceiling is the Roof".

Words to live by, MJ.

Does that mean? I missed it. Context?

SoCal

[duketaylor]

Harry has been a little late to get over, but has also had significant impact on rebounding and was called, for what I thought was a bogus walk, when he hit an 18-foot jumper. He's disruptive. I want more Harry and some more Bolden. Fouls might demand it. We're not in huge foul trouble, yet. Heels are close to that trouble, also. I wish Matt could hit some shots. Frank came on. uncheat hit an insane number of 3s I thought, especially Berry.
2nd half underway, gotta go!!

[91devil]

Does that mean? I missed it. Context?

SoCal

Jordan spoke at halftime to talk about his brand sponsoring the UNC football team. ESPN showed it. He actually said that.

[monkey]

Whole lotta home cooking in the first half ... travels not called ... quick five second call ... weird technical foul ... oh my.

[jipops]

Now THAT was a horrible call

[Coballs]

Does that mean? I missed it. Context?

SoCal

He was hyping up UNC football and I guess he meant to say something like "The sky is the limit"...but what he said was "The ceiling is the roof!"

[jipops]

No sub for Amile because K has no confidence in Harry now. The cheats may be about to open this up.

[gocanes0506]

No sub for Amile because K has no confidence in Harry now. The cheats may be about to open this up.

Or Amile is playing a great game and he trusts his senior to play smart.

[jipops]

Or Amile is playing a great game and he trusts his senior to play smart.

Definitely some truth in that

[rsvman]

Another crazy game. Hope things fall our way. A couple of in and out threes in the last minute or so, unfortunately.

[HateCarolina]

Refs make mistakes. You seldom see a rushed count, however. But refs use specific arm motions to show exactly what their count is. When you watch the replay you clearly see that he blew his whistle before he got to 5. He had just reached his chest and was starting to change direction when he blew the whistle. But he sure tried to rush through a shortened 5 count motion after he blew the whistle. I don't know how you can possibly justify calling 5 seconds when you have yet to reach 5 on your own count. Weird.

I agree he got to five with his arm motion, so OCD me ran my stopwatch on it and was surprised to show 4.6 seconds. Much longer than I thought when watching live and in numerous replays. What is that tef's name bc he seems to be making some bad calls in general?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Record for lead changes?

[gocanes0506]

Just need to go to the hole every play, at a minimum go to the free throw line.

And that was a terrible 20 some seconds by giles. 3 fouls?

[dukelion]

Ugghheee.....starting to look like UNCs best offense is a missed shot.

[91devil]

This is an epic game.

[rsvman]

This is an epic game.

It will be even more so if we end up winning it.

[davekay1971]

My hatred for the scum in the stands knows no bounds.

Respect Justin Jackson's game, though. Those were a great couple minutes of offensive basketball by him.

[91devil]

It will be even more so if we end up winning it.

True true. But worth acknowledging high level of play for both teams.

[gocanes0506]

Late game hero ball does us in again and no rebounding

[dukelion]

Not much separates these teams.......but I do think our ceiling is sill higher.

[WakeDevil]

I was not aware that injured feet caused you to miss free throws.