MBB: Duke at Syracuse (Wed 2/22, 7:00pm ET, ESPN) Pre-Game and In-Game Thread

[jwillfan]

Don't we have a game tomorrow? All remaining games are important. Discuss.

[Neals384]

Then this is the thread. Mods, please rename.

Game in a football dome is great experience for the final four.

[OldPhiKap]

Don't we have a game tomorrow? All remaining games are important. Discuss.

Some light a candle, while others curse the darkness.

Looks like you just started one. Go Devils!!!!

[Troublemaker]

Don't we have a game tomorrow? All remaining games are important. Discuss.

You are certainly allowed to start the game thread yourself. Nobody has special privileges to do so.

For the mod who will re-title the thread, here's an easy copy-and-paste for ya:

MBB: Duke at Syracuse (Wed 2/22, 7:00pm ET, ESPN) Pre-Game and In-Game Thread

[Olympic Fan]

The last two times that Duke has played in the Dome, the game has been watched by the largest regular season crowd in the history of college basketball. I wonder if Duke at Syracuse can make it the three top crowds? On one hand, they have not been that great this season ... but on the other they need this game more than they ever have (a fourth straight loss would really hurt their NCAA chances, while a win could lift them into the field). Plus, the weather could be very good for Syracuse in mid-February, so that ought to help the crowd.

Interesting that DuJaun Coleman no longer plays and Tyler Roberson (who killed us in Durham last year) has been pretty consistently terrible. Tyler Lydon is the wild card -- he's had some great games, but a lot of terrible ones. Freshman Tristan Thompson has started to come on, but their perimeter trio of White, Gillon and Battle has been the team's strength.

But Boeheim has No depth. Syracuse is basically a six-man team, although sophomore guard Frank Howard gets a little burn as the seventh man.

[CDu]

The Cuse are, as is typical of a Jim Boeheim team, a long and (mostly) lean bunch. The 2-3 zone is best played by big guards and really long, interchangeable forwards. And that is what Syracuse has for the most part.

Frontcourt: the star frontcourt player for Syracuse is Lydon (6'9", 225lb soph). Lydon is frequently at center in their zone, but on offense he is kind of a more athletic Ryan Kelly: 40+% 3pt shooter who can finish inside as well. He's someone we can't lose. Lydon averages 13 and 8 and plays a TON of minutes for them. The theoretical starting center is Dajuan Coleman (6'9", 260lb senior). Coleman was a relatively highly-recruited big who just hasn't panned out due to injuries. When healthy, he was starting but playing just 15-20mpg. Coleman is a strong rebounder and capable around the basket, but really immobile due to bad knees. He has unfortunately missed the last 7 games. Taurean Thompson (6'10", 225lb frosh) and Tyler Roberson (6'8", 225lb senior) are the other two bigs that play. They are in the prototypical Syracuse forward mold. Thompson has overtaken Roberson as the starter, as Roberson has just never put it together at Syracuse.

Wings: The star of the team is White III (6'7", 210lb senior transfer). White was a stud at Nebraska last year after transferring from Kansas, and has carried that over to Syracuse this year. He is athletic and capable off the dribble, but gets most of his shots off 3pt looks. White leads the team in scoring and shoots 39% from 3pt range. White and Lydon score over 1/3 of the team's points. Alongside White on the wing is Tyus Battle (6'6", 205lb frosh). Battle is sort of a younger version of Andrew White. He can shoot and score and will probably take a starring role next year. This year, he is a starter but is more of a complementary player. Still capable of big games though, as his 23 in a win over UVa will attest.

PG: The starting PG is Gillon (6'0", 180lb senior transfer). Gillon averages 10 points and 5 assists per game while shooting 40.7% from 3pt range. He's a steady, veteran performer who has been a really nice addition to the team given the poor development/recruitment of guards over the previous two years. Gillen, Battle, and White carry the yeoman's work of creating the offense for the Orange. The backup is Frank Howard (6'5", 205lb soph). Howard is fairly nondescript, though he does average 4 assists per game in just 17 mpg. He isn't much of a shooter though.

If Coleman is still out (and I see no reason to assume he will play), the Orange are an EXTREMELY thin team. They will play just 6.5 players barring foul trouble or injury. The zone can be flummoxing, so we'll have to be patient and disciplined. But they can be beaten in their zone. Especially this year, as they really are not a very good defensive team. If we play smart, we should score against them. The key will be limiting them on the other end, where they are a fairly efficient team. Because of their lack of depth, Syracuse will play slow. Unless they get behind, in which case they will apply a full-court press.

This is a game we should win, but lack of discipline could prove quite costly. It will be important to see how Tatum plays against their zone. He could be a devastating weapon against it given his size and versatility. But if he has an off-night from 3 and settles for long jumpers, or if he drives wildly into the lane, it could make for a long night.

[BandAlum83]

Go Duke!!!

[CDu]

The last two times that Duke has played in the Dome, the game has been watched by the largest regular season crowd in the history of college basketball. I wonder if Duke at Syracuse can make it the three top crowds? On one hand, they have not been that great this season ... but on the other they need this game more than they ever have (a fourth straight loss would really hurt their NCAA chances, while a win could lift them into the field). Plus, the weather could be very good for Syracuse in mid-February, so that ought to help the crowd.

Interesting that DuJaun Coleman no longer plays and Tyler Roberson (who killed us in Durham last year) has been pretty consistently terrible. Tyler Lydon is the wild card -- he's had some great games, but a lot of terrible ones. Freshman Tristan Thompson has started to come on, but their perimeter trio of White, Gillon and Battle has been the team's strength.

But Boeheim has No depth. Syracuse is basically a six-man team, although sophomore guard Frank Howard gets a little burn as the seventh man.

Taurean Thompson, not Tristan. Tristan would be a much tougher assignment, but he plays in Cleveland. White and Lydon are the stars. Gillon and Battle are quite capable secondary guys/second-tier stars.

[flyingdutchdevil]

The last two times that Duke has played in the Dome, the game has been watched by the largest regular season crowd in the history of college basketball. I wonder if Duke at Syracuse can make it the three top crowds? On one hand, they have not been that great this season ... but on the other they need this game more than they ever have (a fourth straight loss would really hurt their NCAA chances, while a win could lift them into the field). Plus, the weather could be very good for Syracuse in mid-February, so that ought to help the crowd.

Interesting that DuJaun Coleman no longer plays and Tyler Roberson (who killed us in Durham last year) has been pretty consistently terrible. Tyler Lydon is the wild card -- he's had some great games, but a lot of terrible ones. Freshman Tristan Thompson has started to come on, but their perimeter trio of White, Gillon and Battle has been the team's strength.

But Boeheim has No depth. Syracuse is basically a six-man team, although sophomore guard Frank Howard gets a little burn as the seventh man.

But Coach K has no depth. Duke is basically a six-man team, although freshman big man Harry Giles get a little burn as the seventh man.


Over the last ten games, Frank Howard has averaged 12.4 minutes. Harry Giles over that same ten game period? 11.8.

[uh_no]

But Coach K has no depth. Duke is basically a six-man team, although freshman big man Harry Giles get a little burn as the seventh man.


Over the last ten games, Frank Howard has averaged 12.4 minutes. Harry Giles over that same ten game period? 11.8.

yeah we're clearly at least 7 deep....and bolden can get run when the situation calls for it. It would be great if chase or javin were ready to go as another drop in at the 4, but I can't imagine an argument that the personnel we have isn't enough. they just need to play defense.

[Rich]

The last two times that Duke has played in the Dome, the game has been watched by the largest regular season crowd in the history of college basketball. I wonder if Duke at Syracuse can make it the three top crowds? On one hand, they have not been that great this season ... but on the other they need this game more than they ever have (a fourth straight loss would really hurt their NCAA chances, while a win could lift them into the field). Plus, the weather could be very good for Syracuse in mid-February, so that ought to help the crowd.

Count me in. Meeting my nephew ('Cuse undergrad) and brother-in-law ('Cuse Law Grad) up there and taking my daughter to the game. Looking forward to representing the good guys.

[duke4ever19]

Much is made of the famous Syracuse 2-3 zone, and I thought it would be fun to post a short basic info video on how a team can attack it.

Most of you will already be familiar with it, but for newbies, it's fun to compare what littles wrinkles Coach K will come up (compared with the video) with that will get our guys good shots.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHWdZxRq9pk

[TruBlu]

Big game for us. Win at Syracuse and we are either all alone in second place in the ACC (if the cheaters beat the dirty birds) or we're in a 3 way tie for first (if the dirty birds beat the cheaters).

Just win, Duke!!!! And as always, GTHC.

[jwillfan]

IIRC Gillon was the star of 'Cuse overtime win @ NCSU, hit game tying 3 after being on fire then helped them win in OT. A friend who is a 'Cuse grad/fan said "his hands were radioactive" and couldn't believe State let him take that 3 to tie the game. Same ol' NC State Stuff (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/nc-state-stuff-the-definition/16527471/). I believe our 3-point D is somewhat better than State's. Go Duke!

[Olympic Fan]

But Coach K has no depth. Duke is basically a six-man team, although freshman big man Harry Giles get a little burn as the seventh man.


Over the last ten games, Frank Howard has averaged 12.4 minutes. Harry Giles over that same ten game period? 11.8.

Not sure your point -- I wasn't criticizing Syracuse for lack of depth, merely observing the nature of their team. We all know Duke isn't very deep.

But if you want to get technical -- Giles is averaging 13.0 mpg (more than Howard's 12.2). And with Coleman out, Syracuse's No. 8 man is getting 1.5 minutes a game ... whereas Duke's No. 8 -- Bolden -- is getting 7.4 mpg. Four Syracuse starters are averaging more than 34 mpg in ACC play ... with White at 39.9 mpg and Lydon at 38.9. Duke's leading mpg player is Kennard at 34.4.

It's not a huge difference, but if you want to compare, Duke has slightly more depth than 'Cuse.

Interesting sidelight to Syracuse's lack of depth. A Syracuse writer was doing a story this week on Boeheim's fullcourt press (which beat Virginia in the Elite Eight last year and almost brought them back against Georgia Tech last week). The writer wondered to several coaches why Boeheim doesn't use it more -- Rick Pitino explained to him that 'Cuse's lack of depth made it impossible to press for an extended period. When Beoheim was asked about using the press more, he laughed and said, "Good god, I've only got six players. How long would they last if I pressed all the time?"

The Syracuse press is a formidable weapon, but Boeheim has to use it sparingly.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Not sure your point -- I wasn't criticizing Syracuse for lack of depth, merely observing the nature of their team. We all know Duke isn't very deep.

But if you want to get technical -- Giles is averaging 13.0 mpg (more than Howard's 12.2). And with Coleman out, Syracuse's No. 8 man is getting 1.5 minutes a game ... whereas Duke's No. 8 -- Bolden -- is getting 7.4 mpg. Four Syracuse starters are averaging more than 34 mpg in ACC play ... with White at 39.9 mpg and Lydon at 38.9. Duke's leading mpg player is Kennard at 34.4.

It's not a huge difference, but if you want to compare, Duke has slightly more depth than 'Cuse.

Interesting sidelight to Syracuse's lack of depth. A Syracuse writer was doing a story this week on Boeheim's fullcourt press (which beat Virginia in the Elite Eight last year and almost brought them back against Georgia Tech last week). The writer wondered to several coaches why Boeheim doesn't use it more -- Rick Pitino explained to him that 'Cuse's lack of depth made it impossible to press for an extended period. When Beoheim was asked about using the press more, he laughed and said, "Good god, I've only got six players. How long would they last if I pressed all the time?"

The Syracuse press is a formidable weapon, but Boeheim has to use it sparingly.

Wasn't criticizing you or your point about Syracuse. I agree they aren't deep.

But Duke isn't that far behind. Duke basically plays a 7-man rotation with that 7th man barely getting minutes into the teens.

I just find it humorous that many - including myself - was convinced that Duke would play an 8, 9, or even 10 man line-up. Ain't happening.

[kAzE]

Taurean Thompson (6'10", 225lb frosh) and Tyler Roberson (6'8", 225lb senior) are the other two bigs that play. They are in the prototypical Syracuse forward mold. Thompson has overtaken Roberson as the starter, as Roberson has just never put it together at Syracuse.

Could have fooled me . . . he was the guy who put up 14 point on 7-14 shooting, 3 assists, and 20 rebounds on us in a Syracuse win at our house last year. I fully expect him to go off again. On some teams, there's always that one guy who always goes crazy (relative to their usual production) when they play Duke. Bonzie Colson, Tyler Roberson, and Dennis Smith are the guys that come to mind for this year. Maybe add John Collins too. Hopefully Collins and Smith go pro after this year, and Roberson will be gone, but we still have 1 more year of Colson to deal with.

[DavidBenAkiva]

The Cuse are, as is typical of a Jim Boeheim team, a long and (mostly) lean bunch. The 2-3 zone is best played by big guards and really long, interchangeable forwards. And that is what Syracuse has for the most part.

Great write-up!

I was perusing their box scores from the past few games. The Orange are on a 3-game losing streak with losses on the road at Pitt and Georgia Tech and a home loss to Louisville. Since the game against UNC game on January 16th, Boeheim has only used a 7-man rotation with Gillon, White, and Lydon getting basically 40 minutes a game while the other 4 players more or less split the remaining minutes. That's something you can do if your players are in great shape and you play a zone defense, I suppose.

From an advanced stats point of view, here are some interesting nuggets:

Syracuse is dead last in opponents assists per field goal made at #351. The zone prevents one-on-one basketball, which might seem like a good defensive strategy against Duke. However, the Blue Devils have been passing the ball particularly well of late. In the current 7-game win streak, Duke has assisted on 55.1% of their made field goals, significantly better than their 49.5% mark on the season, good for 245th on the year. A lot of the assisted shots that Syracuse is allowing are form beyond the arc. Passing the ball out of the high post to an open shooter and making open 3s will go a long way towards securing the victory. I also wouldn't be surprised if Coach K puts Amile Jefferson along the baseline on offense and allows Jayson Tatum to drive from the high post for a dump off. This strategy could also work with Jefferson and Tatum switched or with Harry Giles along the baseline. Giles has the quickness to explode to the basket if the defense collapses on the high post. At any rate, getting dribble penetration will be key to solving the Syracuse zone, as it usually is.

Interestingly, Syracuse is also among the top 10 in opponent free throw percentage. Their "free throw defense," such as it is, could also be key. Making free throws in the Dome could prove crucial to securing the victory as well.

Other notes:
- No surprise that the Orange give up a lot of offensive rebounds, a traditional weakness of the zone.
- They generate a lot of offense off of steals, ranking 15th in the nation in steal percentage. No lazy passes, boys.

This is an important game for other reasons, too. The top 2 teams in the ACC, UNC and Louisville, play right after Duke and Syracuse concludes. Securing a victory will allow Duke to move ahead of either Louisville or UNC in the standings with just 3 games left to play. I suppose it would be better if UNC won so that U of L would take a loss, allowing Duke to be alone in 2nd place with a chance to secure the best record in the conference. The Cardinals don't play another top team in the league after the game against Carolina.

[Olympic Fan]

This is an important game for other reasons, too. The top 2 teams in the ACC, UNC and Louisville, play right after Duke and Syracuse concludes. Securing a victory will allow Duke to move ahead of either Louisville or UNC in the standings with just 3 games left to play. I suppose it would be better if UNC won so that U of L would take a loss, allowing Duke to be alone in 2nd place with a chance to secure the best record in the conference. The Cardinals don't play another top team in the league after the game against Carolina.

Totally, 100 percent disagree ... MUCH better for Duke if the Cheaters lose. We've talked about this is another thread. Duke and Louisville win and we're tied for the ACC lead. If UNC wins and we win out, we end up sharing the ACC regular season title with them. Who cares whether we are the No. 1 or No. 2 seed (which we would be if we end up tied with Louisville). If we have to share the ACC title, I'd rather it be with the Cards than the Cheaters.

And Louisville does have another tough game -- they finish with Notre Dame.

[DavidBenAkiva]

Totally, 100 percent disagree ... MUCH better for Duke if the Cheaters lose. We've talked about this is another thread. Duke and Louisville win and we're tied for the ACC lead. If UNC wins and we win out, we end up sharing the ACC regular season title with them. Who cares whether we are the No. 1 or No. 2 seed (which we would be if we end up tied with Louisville). If we have to share the ACC title, I'd rather it be with the Cards than the Cheaters.

And Louisville does have another tough game -- they finish with Notre Dame.

What are the seeding implications for the ACC Tournament? I assume the first tiebreaker is head-to-head. If that is the case, then here is what could happen if Duke wins out:

- If Louisville wins the rest of their schedule, the Cardinals are #1 seed in ACC Tournament with Duke #2 seed
- If UNC wins against Louisville but loses to Duke, then Duke is the #1 seed in ACC Tournament with UNC #2 seed

There isn't a regular season championship, so I'd rather have the #1 seed in the ACC Tournament and potentially only have to face either UNC or U of L in the championship game instead of potentially having to face both of them to win the tournament. Even then, Duke might have to face Florida State or Notre Dame in the semis, no easy task. Still, I'd rather have that path.

[MrPoon]

You guys are making me nervous, its too quiet.

This game is a fascinating next step in this team's development. The remainder of the season will be mostly decided on the road. The Dome and the Zone pose unique challenges. The good news is the team has experience at key positions playing both. Plus this isn't as good of a Syracuse team as the last few years. However, we for reason's we may never fully know, this team loves to keep games close and 'Cuse record of late says they stay close too. Team is built well to attack the zone. Good passing, outside shooting and Jones locking down their top player.

K always has a little surprise late in the year from his best teams. Maybe this is where one comes out. I'd love to see them prove the struggles on D against Wake were an not a lasting problem. But I confess, I worry, our best teams get stops against good offenses. And this team loves to keep it dangerously close.

I think the resting discussion is probably overblown in the end. K loves winning each game and the grind of the season means too much to him. Although I am stuck that his friend Gregg Popovich would sit key people for the UNC game just to show control and prepare for the ACC tournament.

[Troublemaker]

What are the seeding implications for the ACC Tournament? I assume the first tiebreaker is head-to-head. If that is the case, then here is what could happen if Duke wins out:

- If Louisville wins the rest of their schedule, the Cardinals are #1 seed in ACC Tournament with Duke #2 seed
- If UNC wins against Louisville but loses to Duke, then Duke is the #1 seed in ACC Tournament with UNC #2 seed

There isn't a regular season championship, so I'd rather have the #1 seed in the ACC Tournament and potentially only have to face either UNC or U of L in the championship game instead of potentially having to face both of them to win the tournament. Even then, Duke might have to face Florida State or Notre Dame in the semis, no easy task. Still, I'd rather have that path.

Yeah, but UNC is 11-3 and Louisville is 10-4. If you care about the #1 seed that much, you should be rooting for Louisville. Like I wrote elsewhere, it becomes a little too clever to look at their remaining schedules and decide Duke would be better off with UNC winning. There's been too much parity and too many surprises to just write in Ws for Louisville the rest of the way. Wake, for example, is a desperate team that needs to beat Louisville to get in the tournament and they'll be playing at home.

Also, with UVA in a late season swoon, UNC's remaining schedule (@Pitt, @UVA, Duke) might not be that much tougher than Louisville's.

Also, Duke is very unlikely to win out. Rooting for UNC tomorrow is basically rooting for them to win the regular season title outright. Which does exist. Even though the tournament champ is the official champ, the conference also recognizes the regular season champ.

Also, never root for UNC. Not against Louisville, not against ISIS.

[subzero02]

Most sports book have us as 4 or 4.5 point favorites over the citrus boys...

[WVDUKEFAN]

The Cuse are, as is typical of a Jim Boeheim team, a long and (mostly) lean bunch. The 2-3 zone is best played by big guards and really long, interchangeable forwards. And that is what Syracuse has for the most part.

Frontcourt: the star frontcourt player for Syracuse is Lydon (6'9", 225lb soph). Lydon is frequently at center in their zone, but on offense he is kind of a more athletic Ryan Kelly: 40+% 3pt shooter who can finish inside as well. He's someone we can't lose. Lydon averages 13 and 8 and plays a TON of minutes for them. The theoretical starting center is Dajuan Coleman (6'9", 260lb senior). Coleman was a relatively highly-recruited big who just hasn't panned out due to injuries. When healthy, he was starting but playing just 15-20mpg. Coleman is a strong rebounder and capable around the basket, but really immobile due to bad knees. He has unfortunately missed the last 7 games. Taurean Thompson (6'10", 225lb frosh) and Tyler Roberson (6'8", 225lb senior) are the other two bigs that play. They are in the prototypical Syracuse forward mold. Thompson has overtaken Roberson as the starter, as Roberson has just never put it together at Syracuse.

Wings: The star of the team is White III (6'7", 210lb senior transfer). White was a stud at Nebraska last year after transferring from Kansas, and has carried that over to Syracuse this year. He is athletic and capable off the dribble, but gets most of his shots off 3pt looks. White leads the team in scoring and shoots 39% from 3pt range. White and Lydon score over 1/3 of the team's points. Alongside White on the wing is Tyus Battle (6'6", 205lb frosh). Battle is sort of a younger version of Andrew White. He can shoot and score and will probably take a starring role next year. This year, he is a starter but is more of a complementary player. Still capable of big games though, as his 23 in a win over UVa will attest.

PG: The starting PG is Gillon (6'0", 180lb senior transfer). Gillon averages 10 points and 5 assists per game while shooting 40.7% from 3pt range. He's a steady, veteran performer who has been a really nice addition to the team given the poor development/recruitment of guards over the previous two years. Gillen, Battle, and White carry the yeoman's work of creating the offense for the Orange. The backup is Frank Howard (6'5", 205lb soph). Howard is fairly nondescript, though he does average 4 assists per game in just 17 mpg. He isn't much of a shooter though.

If Coleman is still out (and I see no reason to assume he will play), the Orange are an EXTREMELY thin team. They will play just 6.5 players barring foul trouble or injury. The zone can be flummoxing, so we'll have to be patient and disciplined. But they can be beaten in their zone. Especially this year, as they really are not a very good defensive team. If we play smart, we should score against them. The key will be limiting them on the other end, where they are a fairly efficient team. Because of their lack of depth, Syracuse will play slow. Unless they get behind, in which case they will apply a full-court press.

This is a game we should win, but lack of discipline could prove quite costly. It will be important to see how Tatum plays against their zone. He could be a devastating weapon against it given his size and versatility. But if he has an off-night from 3 and settles for long jumpers, or if he drives wildly into the lane, it could make for a long night.

Great breakdown. Syracuse is a tough environment. Their fans will be there and be ready. As you pointed out, the Tatum matchup against their zone will be a big key.

[Indoor66]

It is easy. If we shoot decently we win, if we shoot well we win big, if we shoot poorly it will be very close and we could lose. The zone makes it all turn on our shooting. I like our chances.

[bluedev_92]

It is easy. If we shoot decently we win, if we shoot well we win big, if we shoot poorly it will be very close and we could lose. The zone makes it all turn on our shooting. I like our chances.

Like the way you're thinking about this overall. Not sure about the winning big part, but would like to see it. Syracuse hasn't really let any games get out of hand at home since December vs. St. Johns & have only lost once at home since December (4pt. loss to Louisville) My initial thoughts are a 5 to 10 point win...

[cato]

There isn't a regular season championship, . . .

Yes there is.

[devilsince1977]

This game scares the heck out of me. We are better on paper, but we are still banged up. It is a very hostile crowd and a win against Duke could help Syracuse get on a roll that the Tourney Committee could not ignore. They have been know to have a late run in the past. Duke needs another win to keep moving up the ACC standings; and up the NCAAT bracket seedings. There is more pressure on Duke, Syracuse has nothing to lose. We are a jump shooting team going into the Dome with its crappy shooting background. All that said, Duke should come out with a win. I would love a blowout that lets Grayson, Luke, Matt, and Amile play under 30 minutes. I thought Luke looked a little leg weary against Wake.

[andyw715]

The last two times that Duke has played in the Dome, the game has been watched by the largest regular season crowd in the history of college basketball. I wonder if Duke at Syracuse can make it the three top crowds?

Well mid-week games in February in Syracuse are a tough sell, largest mid-week crowd in the past 20 years was in 2012 we had 27800 for Georgetown. I would expect between 28k-30k tonight. Avg Cuse vs Duke @ Carrier Dome is 35446 (the max for bball)

Should be an interesting game.

[DavidBenAkiva]

Yes there is.

I have a core belief that championships are won in tournaments. It's why I consider Ohio State to be the first team to ever win the BCS Championship, accomplishing the feat in 2014. Every other championship was a paper title. So sue me.

EDIT: And UNC never won a championship in 1924 because there wasn't a tournament that year. Their banner is ridiculous and so are they.

[mark34]

Yes there is.

The regular season championship moniker was invented to reward Clemson in 1990. The ACC was petitioned to recognize their unexpected achievement. THE ACC Champion has always been and remains the winner of the ACC Tournament. But yes, there is a set of three words, regular season champion, that has "recently" become recognized by the league. As an "old-ish" timer, winning always matters, but if you want to talk about ACC Championship records, only the tournament counts.

[Troublemaker]

Re: the zone. If shooting doesn't get it done, offensive rebounding can, too. Maybe the freshmen bigs can help Amile make an impact in that area.

While it's natural to focus on the zone when playing Cuse, they're really an offensive team this year. In ACC games, they've scored 1.11 ppp and given up 1.11 ppp on defense. If previous Cuse teams (with the good defenses) had the shooters that this team has, they would've been far more dangerous.

This team tends to put 4 very good shooters on the floor and set lots of ball screens, so it'll be a pretty good test for our defense. They're not as good as Wake. Gillon is not as good as Crawford, and Syracuse's bigs aren't as good as Collins, but if our defense plays well, it'll be a good sign. Like I wrote elsewhere, this is the first of 3 consecutive opponents that will test our ball screen defense post-Wake. Let's get an 'A' on defense, a 'W' for the team, and move on to play the 'U'.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Re: the zone. If shooting doesn't get it done, offensive rebounding can, too. Maybe the freshmen bigs can help Amile make an impact in that area.

While it's natural to focus on the zone when playing Cuse, they're really an offensive team this year. In ACC games, they've scored 1.11 ppp and given up 1.11 ppp on defense. If previous Cuse teams (with the good defenses) had the shooters that this team has, they would've been far more dangerous.

This team tends to put 4 very good shooters on the floor and set lots of ball screens, so it'll be a pretty good test for our defense. They're not as good as Wake. Gillon is not as good as Crawford, and Syracuse's bigs aren't as good as Collins, but if our defense plays well, it'll be a good sign. Like I wrote elsewhere, this is the first of 3 consecutive opponents that will test our ball screen defense post-Wake. Let's get an 'A' on defense, a 'W' for the team, and move on to play the 'U'.

Is any big in the ACC as good as Collins offensively? I can't think of anyone who comes close on Duke, UNC, Louisville, etc.

[CDu]

The regular season championship moniker was invented to reward Clemson in 1990. The ACC was petitioned to recognize their unexpected achievement. THE ACC Champion has always been and remains the winner of the ACC Tournament. But yes, there is a set of three words, regular season champion, that has "recently" become recognized by the league. As an "old-ish" timer, winning always matters, but if you want to talk about ACC Championship records, only the tournament counts.

This is all true. HOWEVER, this does not mean that there is not a championship associated with winning the regular season crown. There IS an ACC Regular Season Champion. We hang banners for it. Coach K celebrates it and talks about it. It is a thing, and it matters to the program.

No one is disagreeing that the official ACC champion is the ACC tourney winner. DavidBenAkiva said "there is no regular season championship". Which is false.

[Troublemaker]

Is any big in the ACC as good as Collins offensively? I can't think of anyone who comes close on Duke, UNC, Louisville, etc.

He's the best offensive post man in the conference for sure. Can score on postups AND can score as the roller in pick-n-roll; that catch he made of the bad pass on the roll before laying it in was terrific against Duke. Wake has the best spread pick-n-roll team in the conference. Duke quite obviously wasn't ready for their level on Saturday. But we'll have 3 games here to hone our pick-n-roll defense, and I hope Duke gets to play Wake again in the ACC tourney. I'm not a masochist. That's just how you get better. You train, you hone, and then you test.

[Jeffrey]

No one is disagreeing that the official ACC champion is the ACC tourney winner.

Roy might disagree.

[CDu]

Roy might disagree.

Touche, good sir!

[COYS]

This game could be won from beyond the arc, where I think Duke has an advantage.

As is common for a Coach K team, Duke has done a great job limiting opponents' three point attempts and forcing a low percentage on the shots they do get. Duke and Syracuse are basically tied in conference play in terms of how frequently they shoot threes, with both teams getting 40% of their FGA from three-land. If Duke can continue to run shooters off the line, 'Cuse's offense looks a lot more pedestrian. Many statisticians are skeptical of whether or not opponent 3pt% is actually due to good defense, but Duke has been pretty good at limiting opponents' three point attempts and forcing opponents into low 3pt% for so many years now, I think it's safe to say that it really is a strength for Duke. Hopefully that trend continues.

Meanwhile, Syracuse has been near the bottom in the ACC in opponent 3pt%, allowing 40% from beyond the arc. Duke is the best 3pt shooting team since conference play started, hitting at just above 40%. So if the average ACC team has been hitting 40% of their three point attempts, you gotta like Duke's chances as the best shooting ACC team. That being said, I think it will be essential for Duke to get their threes from good ball movement, drive and kicks, passes from the high post, and offensive rebounds/kick outs as we all know how deadly 'Cuse's 2-3 zone can be when the opponent makes a few perimeter passes and then jacks up a three. And it's a road game so you KNOW it's going to be tough, no matter what, because that's just how the ACC works this year.

[Kedsy]

We are a jump shooting team going into the Dome with its crappy shooting background.

FWIW, we've played two games at Syracuse since they joined the league, and shot 22 for 51 combined from three-land in the two games (43%). So we've shot pretty well against that "crappy shooting background."

Plus, what COYS said.

[mark34]

This is all true. HOWEVER, this does not mean that there is not a championship associated with winning the regular season crown. There IS an ACC Regular Season Champion. We hang banners for it. Coach K celebrates it and talks about it. It is a thing, and it matters to the program.

No one is disagreeing that the official ACC champion is the ACC tourney winner. DavidBenAkiva said "there is no regular season championship". Which is false.

Makes sense.

[Fish80]

yeah we're clearly at least 7 deep...and bolden can get run when the situation calls for it. It would be great if chase or javin were ready to go as another drop in at the 4, but I can't imagine an argument that the personnel we have isn't enough. they just need to play defense.

What's going on with Javin? I know Chase was recovering from back surgery. Is Javin injured?








"I'm not afraid of the dark, I just light candles."

[uh_no]

What's going on with Javin? I know Chase was recovering from back surgery. Is Javin injured?





they are both healthy by now, AFAIK.

DNP-CD. They're not ready to contribute relative to the other personnel

[flyingdutchdevil]

they are both healthy by now, AFAIK.

DNP-CD. They're not ready to contribute relative to the other personnel

Yeah.

If Giles plays ~12 min a game and Bolden <5 min, then understanding why Delaurier and Jeter aren't playing is pretty self-explanatory.

[DukesJayAsh]

We gone small ball. Thats all. Coach has his rotation or lack there of.

[Troublemaker]

We gone small ball. Thats all. Coach has his rotation or lack there of.

I'm wondering if there will be some changes to reduce Grayson and Amile's minutes starting tonight. I mean, Coach did make a big deal in the Wake postgame presser about trying some new things to get them healthy.

Please let it be so. Please substitute liberally, Coach. Don't allow the Devil on your shoulder to win the argument with the Angel on your other shoulder.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I'm wondering if there will be some changes to reduce Grayson and Amile's minutes starting tonight. I mean, Coach did make a big deal in the Wake postgame presser about trying some new things to get them healthy.

Please let it be so. Please substitute liberally, Coach. Don't allow the Devil on your shoulder to win the argument with the Angel on your other shoulder.

The Devil has been winning that argument for a while now. I mean, that battle over the last 10 years makes Duke-UNC look competitive!

I too hope Allen and Amile rest, but not because I want to see a deeper bench. Rather, I want Duke to have the best change of winning a natty (even at the expense of an ACC reg season/tournament title), and that likely requires a healthy starting line-up.

[DukesJayAsh]

You will see 1 game a possible rest day or really pull back minutes for both. Maybe see Giles/Bolden in more for Amile and then Frank Jackson in a lot more for Grayson. I do think Coach wants to secure a top 4 seed in the ACCT. I was thinking maybe the Miami game you might see the minutes for these guys get pulled back. We shall see. We still haven't seen the full potential for these guys yet which is encouraging. You never want to see your team peak right now...you always want more room to grow going into March. I think you see a lot of teams already hit there peak. Duke...not yet. :D:):):D:

[Indoor66]

The regular season championship moniker was invented to reward Clemson in 1990. The ACC was petitioned to recognize their unexpected achievement. THE ACC Champion has always been and remains the winner of the ACC Tournament. But yes, there is a set of three words, regular season champion, that has "recently" become recognized by the league. As an "old-ish" timer, winning always matters, but if you want to talk about ACC Championship records, only the tournament counts.

Wrong. The regular season championship was a creature of and invented by Dean Smith (like his cheating schemes). He talked about it when his teams did not win the Tournament but had the best regular season record. The League, from its inception, only recognized the Tournament Champion as the League Champion. After the NCAA broadened tournament participation beyond one team per league, there became impetus to recognize the regular season best record as a champion of some sort and this was formalized in about 1990.

[uh_no]

Wrong. The regular season championship was a creature of and invented by Dean Smith (like his cheating schemes). He talked about it when his teams did not win the Tournament but had the best regular season record. The League, from its inception, only recognized the Tournament Champion as the League Champion. After the NCAA broadened tournament participation beyond one team per league, there became impetus to recognize the regular season best record as a champion of some sort and this was formalized in about 1990.

when will DBR learn that the only true championship is the walton belt?

[cato]

The regular season championship moniker was invented to reward Clemson in 1990. The ACC was petitioned to recognize their unexpected achievement. THE ACC Champion has always been and remains the winner of the ACC Tournament. But yes, there is a set of three words, regular season champion, that has "recently" become recognized by the league. As an "old-ish" timer, winning always matters, but if you want to talk about ACC Championship records, only the tournament counts.

The ACC recognizes a regular season championship. To say otherwise is wrong. When people repeat the falsehood, others start believing it.

I miss the old ACC and the double round robin. But having a regular season championship is not new any more.

[BandAlum83]

Wrong. The regular season championship was a creature of and invented by Dean Smith (like his cheating schemes). He talked about it when his teams did not win the Tournament but had the best regular season record. The League, from its inception, only recognized the Tournament Champion as the League Champion. After the NCAA broadened tournament participation beyond one team per league, there became impetus to recognize the regular season best record as a champion of some sort and this was formalized in about 1990.

This argument is growing tiresome.

[mgtr]

when will DBR learn that the only true championship is the walton belt?

If I understand things correctly, then as long as the current holder of the Walton Belt qualifies for the NCAA tournament, then the NCAA champ and the Walton Belt champ will coincide.

[NYBri]

Yeah, but UNC is 11-3 and Louisville is 10-4. If you care about the #1 seed that much, you should be rooting for Louisville. Like I wrote elsewhere, it becomes a little too clever to look at their remaining schedules and decide Duke would be better off with UNC winning. There's been too much parity and too many surprises to just write in Ws for Louisville the rest of the way. Wake, for example, is a desperate team that needs to beat Louisville to get in the tournament and they'll be playing at home.

Also, with UVA in a late season swoon, UNC's remaining schedule (@Pitt, @UVA, Duke) might not be that much tougher than Louisville's.

Also, Duke is very unlikely to win out. Rooting for UNC tomorrow is basically rooting for them to win the regular season title outright. Which does exist. Even though the tournament champ is the official champ, the conference also recognizes the regular season champ.

Also, never root for UNC. Not against Louisville, not against ISIS.

I've never given ISIS sporks and would if the software would let me. :cool:

[Utley]

Like the way you're thinking about this overall. Not sure about the winning big part, but would like to see it. Syracuse hasn't really let any games get out of hand at home since December vs. St. Johns & have only lost once at home since December (4pt. loss to Louisville) My initial thoughts are a 5 to 10 point win...

Great point about how tough The Cuse has been at home the last couple of months. Combine that with how just about every one of our games is tight and i fully expect another nail biter.

Perhaps our greatest strength has been the way we've been able to close during the streak - let's hope that continues.

[mark34]

The ACC recognizes a regular season championship. To say otherwise is wrong. When people repeat the falsehood, others start believing it.

I miss the old ACC and the double round robin. But having a regular season championship is not new any more.

Yep, and you quoted me saying that the ACC recognizes that there is a regular season champion it and has done so since 1990.

And you really hit the nail on the head as to why it will never have the same weight as the ACC Championship, since the regular season is no longer an even schedule. it's brutal slog (especially this year) for everyone, but you cannot say that everyone has had the same hill to climb in any given year.

[uh_no]

If I understand things correctly, then as long as the current holder of the Walton Belt qualifies for the NCAA tournament, then the NCAA champ and the Walton Belt champ will coincide.

you should read the walton belt thread. we had all sorts of theories about interesting scenarios, interim holders, and reunification bouts.

[mark34]

and by the way... Beat Syracuse tonight! (getting back on point)

[Indoor66]

This argument is growing tiresome.

Not an argument. It is a recital of history.

[uh_no]

Yep, and you quoted me saying that the ACC recognizes that there is a regular season champion it and has done so since 1990.

And you really hit the nail on the head as to why it will never have the same weight as the ACC Championship, since the regular season is no longer an even schedule. it's brutal slog (especially this year) for everyone, but you cannot say that everyone has had the same hill to climb in any given year.

which i don't get....since if leagues weren't lazy, and most people could understand anything other than w-l, we could fix all uneven schedules by simply normalizing to one recorded game per opponent...

2-0 -> 1-0
1-1 -> .5-.5
0-2 -> 0-1

tada. I'll probably do that by hand at the end of the acc season to figure out the normalized ACC regular season champion....the uh_no_ title holder, if you will.

[-jk]

DBR Chat (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/misc.php?do=cchatbox) is open!

If it gets a bit slow, refresh the page. If you're on a mobile device, you'll need to select "Blue" at the bottom.

As always - please follow the DBR Posting Guidelines.

Let's Go Duke!

-jk

[Skydog]

which i don't get...since if leagues weren't lazy, and most people could understand anything other than w-l, we could fix all uneven schedules by simply normalizing to one recorded game per opponent...

2-0 -> 1-0
1-1 -> .5-.5
0-2 -> 0-1

tada. I'll probably do that by hand at the end of the acc season to figure out the normalized ACC regular season champion...the uh_no_ title holder, if you will.

This board makes us spread rep too much. I would rep most of your posts because they tend to thoughtful and to the point. Like this one - your solution to the unbalanced schedule issue is both elegant and simple to implement. Which of course means it will never be adopted.

[sagegrouse]

Wrong. The regular season championship was a creature of and invented by Dean Smith (like his cheating schemes). He talked about it when his teams did not win the Tournament but had the best regular season record. The League, from its inception, only recognized the Tournament Champion as the League Champion. After the NCAA broadened tournament participation beyond one team per league, there became impetus to recognize the regular season best record as a champion of some sort and this was formalized in about 1990.

It was put in place at the behest of Coach Cliff Ellis after Clemson won the regular season championship in 1991 and argued that it should be recognized, in part, because Clemson had never won anything in hoops. Everyone liked Cliff, and therefore, a regular season championship was added. The official "champion," however, is the winner of the tournament. Duke has banners in the rafters for regular season championships.

[riverside6]

Live tempo-based stats for Duke/Syracuse, starters posted...

http://www.scacchoops.com/duke-at-syracuse-basketball-live-stats-02222017

[pfrduke]

We skipped a media timeout! No whistles from the entire 16:00-12:00 span. Almost makes up for blowing a 4-on-1 that would have put us up 8 but turned into a 7-0 Syracuse run. Almost.

[Indoor66]

For the love of God, shut up Dick.

[barjwr]

Unfortunately Karl Ravech is not really any better. He has been obnoxious the last couple of Duke games he has covered.

[kshepinthehouse]

Decent half, if it wasn't for our horrifying transition offense in this game we would be up 15.

[pfrduke]

Nice to be up as much as we are with so many blown transition opportunities. But would prefer to have converted the transition opportunities and be up 16 rather than 8.

[devilnfla]

Grayson does not know how to run a fast break.

[kshepinthehouse]

Grayson does not know how to run a fast break.

Shouldn't be hard, just pass the ball.

[gocanes0506]

Decent half, if it wasn't for our horrifying transition offense in this game we would be up 15.

I second that. I guess its too hard to pass the ball on 2-on-1 or 3-on-2. Terrible.

[arnie]

Unfortunately Karl Ravech is not really any better. He has been obnoxious the last couple of Duke games he has covered.

May be the worst play-by-play coverage I've ever heard. No interest by either "announcer" in explaining fouls or to's or anything. Vitale didn't even realize Boeheim fouling strategy at end. ESPN keeps falling off the cliff.

[Tripping William]

First half double-double for Tatum, and solid defensively. That fast-break O, tho .....

[dukefan_828]

I love Grayson but those who say he's bolting to the nba after the season are laughable. He didnt leave last year w guaranteed 1st rd money, so why would he leap now? Possibly undrafted and sure to be playing in front of less than 500 ppl in the newly found "Gatorade" dleague. I dont see it, his family isnt hurting he loves duke were there treated like celebrities on campus and around the city. Hes coming back for a healthy sr campaign were he has a chance to reup his stock and have his jersey retired if they do something special. Could also possibly have 3 rings if things go as i wish.:cool:

OPINIONS?

Also i think Tatum is shaping up to be the best OAD to play (most of a season) in a duke uniform.

[mph]

As good as Tatum has been (very), he'd take his game to the next level if he learned to finish with his left. He consistently switches to his right even when it makes the shot more difficult or easier to block.

[rsvman]

So many blown opportunities in transition offense....

BUT, the "game within the game" is Matt's defense. He is putting.on.a.master.class! It's fascinating to watch. Had his guy scored at all? I think he's only touched the ball twice. Sensational.

[kmspeaks]

ESPN producers are absolutely brilliant. Not many could anticipate my desire to see Dick Vitale's meaningless list of coach of the year candidates rather than the basketball game being played.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

No easy games left. Every game is earned.

[Indoor66]

Thank God for mute.

[kshepinthehouse]

Grayson does not know how to run a fast break.

Shouldn't be hard, just pass the ball.

[kshepinthehouse]

31 points by Syracuse in the first 10 minutes of the second half. Only scored 25 in the first half.

[pfrduke]

Every time someone breathes on a Syracuse player it's a foul. For goodness sake.

[gocanes0506]

31 points by Syracuse in the first 10 minutes of the second half. Only scored 25 in the first half.

Dudes are tired on D.

On top of that this terrible foul calls are getting the team in serious foul trouble.

[rsvman]

Officiating is really getting tight.

[kshepinthehouse]

9-11 field goals for syracuse. 15-17 from the free throw line in second half.

[rsvman]

Why are we out there on number 4? Back the defense off him a bit. We're giving him layups by going out too far!

[BigZ]

So are they going to correct the score?

[WakeDevil]

Two piss ant shots cost the game.

This is what you get when you run the clock down and can't find a shot.

[InSpades]

The one thing you can't do against the zone is hold the ball and then try to get a shot. So what do we do twice in a row? Hold the ball and then try to get a shot. So dumb.

[Fish80]

That bites