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CrazyNotCrazie
02-21-2017, 08:47 AM
Interesting update on Alex Murphy - it sounds like he is playing well at Northeastern - I'm glad things seem to be working out for him. It seems like ages ago that he was at Duke. The article also features Dylan Ennis, who I believe we were recruiting as a grad transfer before Thornton signed and was able to reclassify.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/21/sports/ncaabasketball/northeastern-alex-murphy-oregon-dylan-ennis.html?hpw&rref=sports&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

duke79
02-21-2017, 01:14 PM
Interesting update on Alex Murphy - it sounds like he is playing well at Northeastern - I'm glad things seem to be working out for him. It seems like ages ago that he was at Duke. The article also features Dylan Ennis, who I believe we were recruiting as a grad transfer before Thornton signed and was able to reclassify.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/21/sports/ncaabasketball/northeastern-alex-murphy-oregon-dylan-ennis.html?hpw&rref=sports&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

Thanks for the link and glad to hear Alex Murphy is enjoying a good, injury-free last year of college eligibility. He seems like a good kid and I always felt like he had a star-crossed career at both Duke and Florida, with the recurring injuries. I'm also glad to read that he has no regrets or bitterness about coming to Duke after HS. I remember that many people felt he could be a star at Duke...but that never panned out (not sure if it was because of his injuries or that he simply didn't have the talent to compete at the highest levels of Div. 1 BB?). I hope he can continue his career somewhere after college.

wsb3
02-21-2017, 01:41 PM
Interesting update on Alex Murphy - it sounds like he is playing well at Northeastern - I'm glad things seem to be working out for him. It seems like ages ago that he was at Duke. The article also features Dylan Ennis, who I believe we were recruiting as a grad transfer before Thornton signed and was able to reclassify.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/21/sports/ncaabasketball/northeastern-alex-murphy-oregon-dylan-ennis.html?hpw&rref=sports&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

Wow. I really appreciate this information. I confess I thought his college career was behind him. Ironically I will see him play this Saturday at the UNCW game.

Thanks again for sharing.

CDu
02-21-2017, 01:52 PM
Thanks for the link and glad to hear Alex Murphy is enjoying a good, injury-free last year of college eligibility. He seems like a good kid and I always felt like he had a star-crossed career at both Duke and Florida, with the recurring injuries. I'm also glad to read that he has no regrets or bitterness about coming to Duke after HS. I remember that many people felt he could be a star at Duke...but that never panned out (not sure if it was because of his injuries or that he simply didn't have the talent to compete at the highest levels of Div. 1 BB?). I hope he can continue his career somewhere after college.

Murphy really didn't have injury issues at Duke. He had a concussion prior to the season, but that didn't seem to be a lingering problem (note the video of him at the preseason tournament pool). He really only had the one season lost due to injury (his last year at UF).

At Duke, he just wasn't good enough. His true freshman year, he was behind Rivers, Dawkins, and Gbinije on the wings and not yet strong enough to be an option at PF. The next year, Sulaimon beat him out on the wing and Amile Jefferson beat him out at PF. And then Rodney Hood and Jabari Parker arrived and Andre Dawkins returned, which eliminated any opportunity for minutes as Sulaimon and Jefferson remained as well.

Murphy was just an unfortunate casualty of not being quite good enough either as a wing or as a forward. Good athlete, but the skill set just wasn't there. Northeastern seems like a perfect place for him. He can be close to home and as a 6'8" athlete with some range, he can be a star at PF.

duke79
02-21-2017, 02:15 PM
Murphy really didn't have injury issues at Duke. He had a concussion prior to the season, but that didn't seem to be a lingering problem (note the video of him at the preseason tournament pool). He really only had the one season lost due to injury (his last year at UF).

At Duke, he just wasn't good enough. His true freshman year, he was behind Rivers, Dawkins, and Gbinije on the wings and not yet strong enough to be an option at PF. The next year, Sulaimon beat him out on the wing and Amile Jefferson beat him out at PF. And then Rodney Hood and Jabari Parker arrived and Andre Dawkins returned, which eliminated any opportunity for minutes as Sulaimon and Jefferson remained as well.

Murphy was just an unfortunate casualty of not being quite good enough either as a wing or as a forward. Good athlete, but the skill set just wasn't there. Northeastern seems like a perfect place for him. He can be close to home and as a 6'8" athlete with some range, he can be a star at PF.

Thanks for clarifying what happened with Alex. For some reason, I thought he had some other injuries beside the concussion during his time at Duke that restricted his development. I always wondered if, perhaps, he could have starred at an Ivy League school or maybe Stanford or, at least, somewhere maybe one level down from the Duke's of the BB world. I know he came out of HS highly regarded (top 15 or 20 in his class, at the time?)

vfefrenzy
02-21-2017, 02:31 PM
Thanks for clarifying what happened with Alex. For some reason, I thought he had some other injuries beside the concussion during his time at Duke that restricted his development. I always wondered if, perhaps, he could have starred at an Ivy League school or maybe Stanford or, at least, somewhere maybe one level down from the Duke's of the BB world. I know he came out of HS highly regarded (top 15 or 20 in his class, at the time?)

41 overall according to ESPN. 11 at his position.

Edouble
02-21-2017, 02:31 PM
Thanks for clarifying what happened with Alex. For some reason, I thought he had some other injuries beside the concussion during his time at Duke that restricted his development. I always wondered if, perhaps, he could have starred at an Ivy League school or maybe Stanford or, at least, somewhere maybe one level down from the Duke's of the BB world. I know he came out of HS highly regarded (top 15 or 20 in his class, at the time?)

Nope, #49 Final 2011 RSCI. And he moved up after he committed to Duke. Alex was not listed on the previous Summer Top 100 RSCI.

LasVegas
02-21-2017, 02:42 PM
Nope, #49 Final 2011 RSCI. And he moved up after he committed to Duke. Alex was not listed on the previous Summer Top 100 RSCI.

I think the OP was talking about his original class.

"That's also brought a shakeup in the ESPNU rankings, where Murphy was the No. 15 overall player in the Class of 2012. Now as a member of 2011, he sits at No. 40 overall."


http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/high-school/post/_/id/6884/st-marks-murphy-to-reclassify-to-2011

CDu
02-21-2017, 02:43 PM
Thanks for clarifying what happened with Alex. For some reason, I thought he had some other injuries beside the concussion during his time at Duke that restricted his development. I always wondered if, perhaps, he could have starred at an Ivy League school or maybe Stanford or, at least, somewhere maybe one level down from the Duke's of the BB world. I know he came out of HS highly regarded (top 15 or 20 in his class, at the time?)


41 overall according to ESPN. 11 at his position.


Nope, #49 Final 2011 RSCI. And he moved up after he committed to Duke. Alex was not listed on the previous Summer Top 100 RSCI.

Murphy reclassified. Prior to reclassifying, he was in the top-20 in his class as a junior. But he came to Duke "a year early" (actually his true age-based class, but he could have gone a year later). When he reclassified, he dropped to the 40s.

There's no guarantee that he we would have remained a top-20 prospect in his class had he waited the extra year. Those rankings can be fungible prior to the year of interest. But he dropped from the teens to the 40s by reclassifying.

To duke79's question, yeah, Murphy was ultimately a mid-major talent. He had really good athleticism for a 6'8" guy, but didn't really have the skills to play the perimeter or the strength to play inside. Sort of a classic "tweener." But against mid-major competition, he could be a force at PF, where his combination of size and athleticism isn't as common as it is at the power-5 level.

I find it interesting to compare Murphy to his older brother. Erik Murphy was a lot less athletic than Alex. But he was a bit bigger, and thus had a defined position of PF/C. And he developed as a shooter as well. Had Alex been an inch or two taller or had he developed Erik's shooting touch, he'd have had a chance to be a stud at the major college level. Instead, he bounced around as a reserve, whereas Erik became a key starter and All-SEC caliber player for UF (and even landed an NBA job briefly).

flyingdutchdevil
02-21-2017, 03:19 PM
Murphy reclassified. Prior to reclassifying, he was in the top-20 in his class as a junior. But he came to Duke "a year early" (actually his true age-based class, but he could have gone a year later). When he reclassified, he dropped to the 40s.

There's no guarantee that he we would have remained a top-20 prospect in his class had he waited the extra year. Those rankings can be fungible prior to the year of interest. But he dropped from the teens to the 40s by reclassifying.

To duke79's question, yeah, Murphy was ultimately a mid-major talent. He had really good athleticism for a 6'8" guy, but didn't really have the skills to play the perimeter or the strength to play inside. Sort of a classic "tweener." But against mid-major competition, he could be a force at PF, where his combination of size and athleticism isn't as common as it is at the power-5 level.

I find it interesting to compare Murphy to his older brother. Erik Murphy was a lot less athletic than Alex. But he was a bit bigger, and thus had a defined position of PF/C. And he developed as a shooter as well. Had Alex been an inch or two taller or had he developed Erik's shooting touch, he'd have had a chance to be a stud at the major college level. Instead, he bounced around as a reserve, whereas Erik became a key starter and All-SEC caliber player for UF (and even landed an NBA job briefly).

This is really interesting. I can recall 3 players in the last 10 years who reclassified to come to Duke: Andre Dawkins, Alex Murphy, and Derryck Thornton. Of those three, two transferred out of Duke. The third was a decent support player who never truly improved after his sophomore season (I know there are underlying reasons for this).

So, this begs the question: is reclassifying dangerous? Or is it a small sample size with Duke that makes reclassifying unattractive for Duke?

CDu
02-21-2017, 03:41 PM
This is really interesting. I can recall 3 players in the last 10 years who reclassified to come to Duke: Andre Dawkins, Alex Murphy, and Derryck Thornton. Of those three, two transferred out of Duke. The third was a decent support player who never truly improved after his sophomore season (I know there are underlying reasons for this).

So, this begs the question: is reclassifying dangerous? Or is it a small sample size with Duke that makes reclassifying unattractive for Duke?

Well, think about it this way: by reclassifying, you come to college one year less physically/mentally/emotionally developed. So you are inherently less likely to be as productive in your first year as you would if you waited that extra year. Depending on the program, that might not matter. But if you play as a freshman at 18 instead of playing as a freshman at 19, it's hard not to think that your freshman year would be better at 19 than at 18 (all else equal).

Of course, one could also make the argument that coming early, redshirting, and then playing as a redshirt freshman could be better for development than playing that extra year in high school. This was essentially the route that Murphy took at Duke, and the hope was that, as a redshirt freshman, he'd be ready to contribute. But it all depends on the player and the program. For Murphy, he took the "right" path in theory, but was just in over his head and couldn't quite cut it at the major-conference level. So I think Murphy is a case study in the risk of reclassifying and going to a program that is over his talent level. By coming early and redshirting, Murphy took away his ability to transfer later without penalty. So once he realized that it wasn't meant to be, he transferred mid-year and went to UF. He found that it wasn't meant to be there, either, and was fortunate to get a sixth year of eligibility. But by going to Duke (and then to UF), he arguably cost himself a couple of years of significant playing time. Had he not reclassified, maybe he transfers after his true freshman or true sophomore season, then goes the grad transfer route. So if you are going to take the "reclassify and redshirt" route, you need to be really sure that you are going to be a player for the team you commit to. Otherwise, you could end up like Murphy, who has basically had 1.5 seasons of meaningful playing time over a 6-year period.

The other two examples are of course different. Dawkins and Thornton both reclassified very late in the game. Both had to take summer school in high school in order to become eligible. That put them behind in terms of development with the team. In Dawkins' case, it was a veteran team that would win a title, and so his role was limited behind the 3 "S" guys. In Thornton's case, it was a young team without experience, but it really handcuffed his progression.

Where the two differed is that Dawkins had a huge family tragedy that just destroyed him personally for a few years. He ultimately had to take a year off from the program to try to get right. I don't think his development suffered inherently from coming to college early - it was just thrown off by a fluke tragedy. I don't think he is a meaningful case study in any meaningful way. And thankfully his case is an extremely rare one. I can't imagine going through what he went through.

As for Thornton, I think he'd have potentially become a stud this year had he stayed. I think his freshman year went about as well as one should have reasonably hoped. But I think he had some folks in his ear that had unreasonable expectations, and was pressured to go elsewhere. Maybe he also had unrealistic expectations as well. Thornton's case is definitely a case study though. His freshman year is almost exactly what should have been expected, and wasn't a bad year at all. There just wasn't enough patience, and now he's lost a year of play as a result. Hopefully it works out for him at USC next year. He should have all the opportunity he wants to run the show there.

So I guess that is a long way of saying that it all depends on the player. If used properly, there can be a real benefit to it. But it does come with risks. And if you don't take the long view, it can really throw a wrench into a player's development.

Indoor66
02-21-2017, 04:35 PM
Well, think about it this way: by reclassifying, you come to college one year less physically/mentally/emotionally developed. So you are inherently less likely to be as productive in your first year as you would if you waited that extra year. Depending on the program, that might not matter. But if you play as a freshman at 18 instead of playing as a freshman at 19, it's hard not to think that your freshman year would be better at 19 than at 18 (all else equal).

Of course, one could also make the argument that coming early, redshirting, and then playing as a redshirt freshman could be better for development than playing that extra year in high school. This was essentially the route that Murphy took at Duke, and the hope was that, as a redshirt freshman, he'd be ready to contribute. But it all depends on the player and the program. For Murphy, he took the "right" path in theory, but was just in over his head and couldn't quite cut it at the major-conference level. So I think Murphy is a case study in the risk of reclassifying and going to a program that is over his talent level. By coming early and redshirting, Murphy took away his ability to transfer later without penalty. So once he realized that it wasn't meant to be, he transferred mid-year and went to UF. He found that it wasn't meant to be there, either, and was fortunate to get a sixth year of eligibility. But by going to Duke (and then to UF), he arguably cost himself a couple of years of significant playing time. Had he not reclassified, maybe he transfers after his true freshman or true sophomore season, then goes the grad transfer route. So if you are going to take the "reclassify and redshirt" route, you need to be really sure that you are going to be a player for the team you commit to. Otherwise, you could end up like Murphy, who has basically had 1.5 seasons of meaningful playing time over a 6-year period.

The other two examples are of course different. Dawkins and Thornton both reclassified very late in the game. Both had to take summer school in high school in order to become eligible. That put them behind in terms of development with the team. In Dawkins' case, it was a veteran team that would win a title, and so his role was limited behind the 3 "S" guys. In Thornton's case, it was a young team without experience, but it really handcuffed his progression.

Where the two differed is that Dawkins had a huge family tragedy that just destroyed him personally for a few years. He ultimately had to take a year off from the program to try to get right. I don't think his development suffered inherently from coming to college early - it was just thrown off by a fluke tragedy. I don't think he is a meaningful case study in any meaningful way. And thankfully his case is an extremely rare one. I can't imagine going through what he went through.

As for Thornton, I think he'd have potentially become a stud this year had he stayed. I think his freshman year went about as well as one should have reasonably hoped. But I think he had some folks in his ear that had unreasonable expectations, and was pressured to go elsewhere. Maybe he also had unrealistic expectations as well. Thornton's case is definitely a case study though. His freshman year is almost exactly what should have been expected, and wasn't a bad year at all. There just wasn't enough patience, and now he's lost a year of play as a result. Hopefully it works out for him at USC next year. He should have all the opportunity he wants to run the show there.

So I guess that is a long way of saying that it all depends on the player. If used properly, there can be a real benefit to it. But it does come with risks. And if you don't take the long view, it can really throw a wrench into a player's development.

Nice summary and hard to disagree with any of it. Yours sets forth why a small sample can lead to fallacious conclusions.👺😎

FerryFor50
02-21-2017, 05:02 PM
I'll always remember Alex Murphy for this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k_XIunhrEE