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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 99, Wake Forest 94 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
02-18-2017, 02:02 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

downeastdad
02-18-2017, 02:04 PM
Phew!!!!

Tripping William
02-18-2017, 02:05 PM
I'll take it, but if Keshawn Woods makes those layups, this is a whole different ballgame. Collins was the second coming of Timmy Duncan.

NM Duke Fan
02-18-2017, 02:09 PM
With the matador defense today too often, hopefully the defense was like the financial markets in an uptrend, but with a brief down day due to a variety of factors. Certainly had some nice offense going, although a bit too dependent on the three for my tastes at times. Was glad to see Luke drive in, also Grayson with the drive and then nice pass to Jefferson. Wake will be a dangerous team in the ACC tourney with that offense.

devildeac
02-18-2017, 02:10 PM
BP 200/100
P 170

davekay around?

:o

InSpades
02-18-2017, 02:10 PM
If someone could explain what Duke was doing on defense to me that would be great... cause I couldn't figure it out.

Always switching off Collins and never trying to switch back. Never doubling him even though he very quickly proved that he can't be guarded 1 on 1.

That was one of the most embarrassing defensive efforts I've seen out of Duke...

On the plus side... the offense was transcendent outside of the 2 missed front end of 1 and 1s.

DukieInKansas
02-18-2017, 02:12 PM
BP 200/100
P 170

davekay around?

:o

Physician heal thyself?

davekay1971
02-18-2017, 02:12 PM
BP 200/100
P 170

davekay around?

:o

Yes but I had two Legion Brewing Juicy Jays to get through that, so take any medical advice you receive from me with a grain of hops...

TKG
02-18-2017, 02:14 PM
In the post game press conference we will hear, "We beat a really good team today"; "They're really good."

Our D was awful this afternoon. Wake missed two lay ups in the final minute that could have changed the outcome. Wake's shot chart must have colored in the entire paint area.

Always great to win and i realize that we are ranked #12 in the country and have a solid chance to capture the regualr season championship but our D is a major weakness.

grossbus
02-18-2017, 02:15 PM
with only one big on the floor, i don't see how hedging and switching is supposed to work. it was like we were giving collins the baskets. why not ice the screen? why not don't switch?

devildeac
02-18-2017, 02:15 PM
Physician heal thyself?

A physician who treats himself has a fool for a patient.

Old, old medical saying. ;)

Bob Green
02-18-2017, 02:15 PM
That was one of the most embarrassing defensive efforts I've seen out of Duke...



I do not agree. It appeared to me the defensive philosophy was to try to force Collins to beat us by himself. He came up short.

Saratoga2
02-18-2017, 02:16 PM
It worked out about the way a few of us had envisioned. A very close an competitive game with Wake a very good and physical team. I thought Wake got the benefit of the foul calls and got a lot of points in that way. They do go inside more than Duke and we often score from the perimeter. I thought the early call on Tatum to take away his driving basket and saddle him with a foul caused later trouble for us as we are a better team with him in the game.

Coach K again used his bigs in the first half but went totally away from them in the second. It worked, so who am I to complain. I thought that we ceded mismatches inside in the second half to try to keep them down on the 3 point line. That appeared to be the rationale for going small.

Looking at the box score, we had 6 double figure scorers in this one with Kennard having another great game. Tatum would have matched him but had to sit. Grayson did better than I expected coming off a sore ankle, but Frank provided good minutes throughout. Amile played very well.

Come Monday, Duke will emerge in the top 10 and deservedly so.

devildeac
02-18-2017, 02:16 PM
Yes but I had two Legion Brewing Juicy Jays to get through that, so take any medical advice you receive from me with a grain of hops...

Hell with the hops, share some of those ABVs! ;)

CharlestonDave
02-18-2017, 02:16 PM
I admit that I have not seen many if any Duke games this year, ( I was at MSG for the Kansas game ) , as I was in the hospital and then recuperating.

I do read th papers and see the scores so I have to ask this question .

I notice that we have never blown out any teams this year. We were close to losing twice to Wake , barely beat Clemson at home and lost to NC State, we didn't even blow out Elon at home. . Other teams in the conference have had blow out games . I noticed that Wake blew away NC State and Clemson also had a blow out game.

What is it with our team? I know a win is a win and we have been winning recently. Even today I see that we were tied at half time. Is it our defense ? When our offense plays well our defense doesn't seem to and vice versa.

I am not trying to be a ," Debbie Downer ", because we are winning but these efforts do not bode well for a good run in the NCAA tournament in my opinion .

TNTDevil
02-18-2017, 02:17 PM
This is one of few games that I can recall us winning when the other team had a player just "go nuts" on us.

Great win.

The ACC Tournament is gonna be completely insane.

dukelifer
02-18-2017, 02:18 PM
In the post game press conference we will hear, "We beat a really good team today"; "They're really good."

Our D was awful this afternoon. Wake missed two lay ups in the final minute that could have changed the outcome. Wake's shot chart must have colored in the entire paint area.

Always great to win and i realize that we are ranked #12 in the country and have a solid chance to capture the regualr season championship but our D is a major weakness.

7196

Lots of points in there

Bob Green
02-18-2017, 02:19 PM
Our D was awful this afternoon. Wake missed two lay ups in the final minute that could have changed the outcome.

We played solid D on both those missed lay ups forcing Crawford to take hard shots. All lay ups are not created equally.

dukelifer
02-18-2017, 02:20 PM
I admit that I have not seen many if any Duke games this year, ( I was at MSG for the Kansas game ) , as I was in the hospital and then recuperating.

I do read th papers and see the scores so I have to ask this question .

I notice that we have never blown out any teams this year. We were close to losing twice to Wake , barely beat Clemson at home and lost to NC State, we didn't even blow out Elon at home. . Other teams in the conference have had blow out games . I noticed that Wake blew away NC State and Clemson also had a blow out game.

What is it with our team? I know a win is a win and we have been winning recently. Even today I see that we were tied at half time. Is it our defense ? When our offense plays well our defense doesn't seem to and vice versa.

I am not trying to be a ," Debbie Downer ", because we are winning but these efforts do not bode well for a good run in the NCAA tournament in my opinion .
Most NCAA games after the first round are close. Duke's ability to win at the end of games with outstanding free throw shooting bodes very well.

Doria
02-18-2017, 02:21 PM
We played solid D on both those missed lay ups forcing Crawford to take hard shots.

Yeah, I thought we came up big in the final minutes when we needed it, but I wish we hadn't had to quite that much. Nice if we'd been able to keep that 12-point lead or so. But always better to be on this side of the score.

BandAlum83
02-18-2017, 02:21 PM
It worked out about the way a few of us had envisioned. A very close an competitive game with Wake a very good and physical team. I thought Wake got the benefit of the foul calls and got a lot of points in that way. They do go inside more than Duke and we often score from the perimeter. I thought the early call on Tatum to take away his driving basket and saddle him with a foul caused later trouble for us as we are a better team with him in the game.

Coach K again used his bigs in the first half but went totally away from them in the second. It worked, so who am I to complain. I thought that we ceded mismatches inside in the second half to try to keep them down on the 3 point line. That appeared to be the rationale for going small.

Looking at the box score, we had 6 double figure scorers in this one with Kennard having another great game. Tatum would have matched him but had to sit. Grayson did better than I expected coming off a sore ankle, but Frank provided good minutes throughout. Amile played very well.

Come Monday, Duke will emerge in the top 10 and deservedly so.

With Louisville winning, unless baylor drops from #4 to outside the top ten, or UNC loses, who do you think will drop out of the top 10 for us to get in?

We most assuredly will get to 11 with Wisconsin losing.

davekay1971
02-18-2017, 02:22 PM
Most NCAA games after the first round are close. Duke's ability to win at the end of games with outstanding free throw shooting bodes very well.

I loved that Amile knocked down both of his. He's not a great FT shooter, but he's a senior, and with the chance to either seal the win or give Wake a wide open window, he sealed the game.

TKG
02-18-2017, 02:22 PM
7196

Lots of points in there

By my count, Wake made 9 baskets outside of the paint today. They scored over 90 points and only 9 buckets came from "beyond" the lane and two of the 9 were within 10-feet of the basket.

BandAlum83
02-18-2017, 02:25 PM
By my count, Wake made 9 baskets outside of the paint today. They scored over 90 points and only 9 buckets came from "beyond" the lane.

They also missed a bunch from 3 (5/17). So our stop the 3 defense seemed to work and help us to victory.

davekay1971
02-18-2017, 02:26 PM
With Louisville winning, unless baylor drops from #4 to outside the top ten, or UNC loses, who do you think will drop out of the top 10 for us to get in?

We most assuredly will get to 11 with Wisconsin losing.

Oregon and WVU currently in very close games. And of course we should all hope for UNC to lose, every game, against every opponent, no matter the situation. It's all irrelevant right now, of course...lots of basketball between now and selection Sunday, but Duke is clearly playing their way into a 3 seed at this point. If our guys keep winning, they could easily play into a 2, or even a 1, seed.

CameronDuke
02-18-2017, 02:26 PM
With Louisville winning, unless baylor drops from #4 to outside the top ten, or UNC loses, who do you think will drop out of the top 10 for us to get in?

We most assuredly will get to 11 with Wisconsin losing.

West Virginia lost to Kansas too. Duke will jump Wisconsin and Kansas.

Bob Green
02-18-2017, 02:27 PM
By my count, Wake made 9 baskets outside of the paint today. They scored over 90 points and only 9 buckets came from "beyond" the lane.

Which means Duke took away Wake's 3 PT shooting. At the start of the broadcast, the commentators named 3 PT shooting as key for Wake to win. Wake was 5-15 from the bonusphere.

devilnfla
02-18-2017, 02:28 PM
Glad to see the Freshman Tatum hit the front end of a one and one because Allen and Jones sure couldn't. That in itself almost cost us the game.

-jk
02-18-2017, 02:28 PM
Phew! (And I still miss flowy hoops!)

-jk

curtis325
02-18-2017, 02:30 PM
We played solid D on both those missed lay ups forcing Crawford to take hard shots. All lay ups are not created equally.

Did Tatum get a piece of that last one? Maybe a fingernail?

CDu
02-18-2017, 02:30 PM
Which means Duke took away Wake's 3 PT shooting. At the start of the broadcast, the commentators named 3 PT shooting as key for Wake to win. Wake was 5-15 from the bonusphere.

I wouldn't characterize anything about our defense as taking things away. Wake got good looks and missed. It was a pretty abysmal performance for us defensively. Thankfully we were great on offense to overcome it.

For perspective, Wake scored on almost 2/3 of their possessions. That is awful.

weezie
02-18-2017, 02:33 PM
Sparky Jackson!

kmspeaks
02-18-2017, 02:34 PM
This week in Duke basketball:
Win a low possession, defensive struggle - check
Win a high scoring affair in which defense is a dirty word - check

Obviously things that need work, but the core eight is learning how to win in different situations.


I admit that I have not seen many if any Duke games this year, ( I was at MSG for the Kansas game ) , as I was in the hospital and then recuperating.

I do read th papers and see the scores so I have to ask this question .

I notice that we have never blown out any teams this year. We were close to losing twice to Wake , barely beat Clemson at home and lost to NC State, we didn't even blow out Elon at home. . Other teams in the conference have had blow out games . I noticed that Wake blew away NC State and Clemson also had a blow out game.

What is it with our team? I know a win is a win and we have been winning recently. Even today I see that we were tied at half time. Is it our defense ? When our offense plays well our defense doesn't seem to and vice versa.

I am not trying to be a ," Debbie Downer ", because we are winning but these efforts do not bode well for a good run in the NCAA tournament in my opinion .

We beat Georgia Tech 110-57, that one should count as a blowout right?

CameronDuke
02-18-2017, 02:34 PM
I am so proud of this team. Wake played Duke TOUGH twice this year. At 15-5, 3-4, Duke was down but not out. 22-5, 10-4 feels pretty damn good. Cannot wait to see the boys attack the Syracuse zone at the Carrier Dome Wednesday. Not pretty but Duke is finding ways to win. They all count the same in the Win column. Let's Go Duke!

kAzE
02-18-2017, 02:34 PM
Nice team effort in this win (6 guys in double figures), but holy cow we really made a ton of mistakes defensively. We also had no answer for Collins 1 on 1 down low. Amile did by far the best of our bigs on him, but he had his way with anyone who tried to guard him. I dunno why we didn't try to make an adjustment when they kept getting our guards to switch onto him, but we've gotta communicate better in the future to avoid those kinds of mismatches against elite interior scorers. No question Collins was the reason Harry and Marques played a combined 3 seconds in the 2nd half.

That missed box out on the free throw by Harry that lead to a Wake offensive rebound and 3 really kind of hammered home for me why Harry and Marques aren't playing more. Both of them are demonstrably uber-talented, but they aren't quite as locked into those minute details that can win or lose a game down the stretch, and neither of them have learned how to play defense without fouling yet.

subzero02
02-18-2017, 02:39 PM
I admit that I have not seen many if any Duke games this year, ( I was at MSG for the Kansas game ) , as I was in the hospital and then recuperating.

I do read th papers and see the scores so I have to ask this question .

I notice that we have never blown out any teams this year. We were close to losing twice to Wake , barely beat Clemson at home and lost to NC State, we didn't even blow out Elon at home. . Other teams in the conference have had blow out games . I noticed that Wake blew away NC State and Clemson also had a blow out game.

What is it with our team? I know a win is a win and we have been winning recently. Even today I see that we were tied at half time. Is it our defense ? When our offense plays well our defense doesn't seem to and vice versa.

I am not trying to be a ," Debbie Downer ", because we are winning but these efforts do not bode well for a good run in the NCAA tournament in my opinion .

I don't know what your definition of a blowout is but at least some of these winning scores should qualify.


William & Mary Tribe 88-67
App.State Mountaineers 93-58
Maine Black Bears 94-55
UNLV Runnin' Rebels 94-45
Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets 110-57

Indoor66
02-18-2017, 02:41 PM
For all his points, Tatum had a poor game. His defense was pathetic. Out of position as often as in.

CameronBlue
02-18-2017, 02:42 PM
Quick thoughts:

* Entertaining game. Yes Duke missed some defensive rotations and had trouble matching up with Collins inside but Wake played very well, guarded or not. They exploited matchups on the interior against smaller defenders. Don't know what K's plans are for Bolden and Giles but let's hope that they reach a point in their development where K feels comfortable playing them in the 2nd half because Duke's failures on defense were due, in part (but only in part) to mismatches on the interior.

* Wake fans must be ecstatic about the product Manning is putting on the floor. Despite all the tough losses Wake continues to compete. Watch out ACC.

* Loved what we saw from Bolden today. Don't blame him a bit for losing a man on the interior when he double-teamed out beyond the 3 point line. Presumably he was hedging on the double-team by design but it's an issue that needs attention.

grossbus
02-18-2017, 02:42 PM
Most NCAA games after the first round are close. Duke's ability to win at the end of games with outstanding free throw shooting bodes very well.

we missed the front ends of two one and ones. tightened things up.

superdave
02-18-2017, 02:43 PM
I loved that Amile knocked down both of his. He's not a great FT shooter, but he's a senior, and with the chance to either seal the win or give Wake a wide open window, he sealed the game.

Did both Matt and Grayson miss the front end of one and ones late? (Had to stream the game, which was spotty)

Amile was onions! Matt and Grayson need to hit those. That's just not acceptable for old dudes.

BandAlum83
02-18-2017, 02:45 PM
we missed the front ends of two one and ones. tightened things up.

Do they take points away now when you miss a free throw? Or only when it's the front end of a one and one?

I didn't notice the score tighten on the misses, but I was streaming, so maybe it was hard to see points come off the board.

devildeac
02-18-2017, 02:46 PM
Tilting the scale for me today were Amile's 5 blocks, though Luke had another really good game. Tatum had a nice stat line, Grayson had 6A and 2 TO and Frank played very well off the bench with 0 TO.

BandAlum83
02-18-2017, 02:46 PM
Did both Matt and Grayson miss the front end of one and ones late? (Had to stream the game, which was spotty)

Amile was onions! Matt and Grayson need to hit those. That's just not acceptable for old dudes.

It was luke, and then grayson.

CDu
02-18-2017, 02:48 PM
It was luke, and then grayson.

No, it was Jones then Allen. Kennard went 2-2. Jones missed long, Allen short.

dukelifer
02-18-2017, 02:48 PM
Wake is a really good team with two outstanding players. Collins is in the conversation for POY. Duke had no answer for these guys. Wake scored a lot of easy baskets and had a field day from the line. But Duke played very well on the offensive end of the floor. Everyone contributed. Amile, Bolden and Giles scored 24- so they almost matched Collins. Wake got some good production from their other guys- the team was not scared of Duke. As an offensive game- this was a good one. Wake played like a team trying to make the NCAA. Looking at the Box score- Duke was excellent all around. 19 assists is good. Duke allowed too many offensive rebounds- which kept Wake close. But Duke executed at the end. That is how you win games. As long as Duke is close and gets some late separation- they are going to have a chance to win.

porkpa
02-18-2017, 02:48 PM
Even though we are playing much better, I have the feeling that we are not playing near as well as our talent says we should. Every game is close. Some of them shouldn't be. But we are winning and I guess that's what its all about.
I get the feeling that we are only playing up to the level of our competition. It is mostly working. But in the North Carolina State game, it obviously didn't.

Skydog
02-18-2017, 02:50 PM
We gave up 1.38 pts/possession! At home. That may be a record bad defense efficiency for us?

Fortunately we scored 1.46 pts/possession which is incredible.

Glad we won and proud of our guys but our defense made no sense to me. In the 2nd half we quit trying the token half court pressure which was working well for us. We failed to get a stop time after time after time but never made any adjustments than I could tell? Way to many easy layups given up. Hopefully they will look at the tapes and figure it out.

PS - we only forced WF into 4 turnovers for the game? Another record? WF deserves a lot of credit but our poor defense had to play a part in that as well.

sagegrouse
02-18-2017, 02:52 PM
With Louisville winning, unless baylor drops from #4 to outside the top ten, or UNC loses, who do you think will drop out of the top 10 for us to get in?

We most assuredly will get to 11 with Wisconsin losing.

I look at it this way: If the voters think we deserve a "Top-Ten" position, then someone else will be moved out, even if they don't lose.

azzefkram
02-18-2017, 02:54 PM
Hey sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. You don't win many games when the opponent makes 1.38 pts per poss and allow them to grab nearly 42% of their misses. I have no idea what Duke was trying to do on defense. There were a few defensive breakdowns in the first half but for the most part it looked like a really poor scheme. How many times were Collins and Crawford faced with a mismatch? FYI our defense went from 25 to 33 on Kenpom. That has to be a huge drop for this late in the season.

Great offense from everyone who played even Bolden and Giles. Seven in a row is seven in a row no matter how you get there. On to 'Cuse.

jv001
02-18-2017, 02:55 PM
For all his points, Tatum had a poor game. His defense was pathetic. Out of position as often as in.

As was Luke's defense. Part of that may have been fatigue but he was bad on D in the first half as well. As someone(CDu?) said, our defense was awful. GoDuke!

subzero02
02-18-2017, 02:56 PM
I know one thing that kept us from sustaining a comfortable lead was the number of times Wake scored after we fouled the shooter. I think we gave up 3 three point play opportunities and 1 four point play down the stretch.

jv001
02-18-2017, 02:57 PM
we missed the front ends of two one and ones. tightened things up.

First one by Matt, 2nd by Grayson. Over all our FT shooting is pretty good. Amile hit 2 big ones at the end. Go figure. GoDuke!

KandG
02-18-2017, 02:58 PM
Fun game for the neutral...ridiculous offensive performance by both teams. Not so great if you're a Duke fan who was hoping some defense would be played.

Only 11 turnovers total in the game, and only ONE turnover for each team in the second half.

As others have noted, Wake lived in the paint and at the line, while we were outstanding shooting the 3. I did like that we got paint points from Amile...i felt like the trend in recent games was toward the wings dominating and neglecting the post. We do have fantastic perimeter players, of course, but being able to diversify the attack from time to time helps.

Hard to believe, but we actually had a decent defensive run in the second half (similar to the end of the UNC game) where we held Wake to 8 points in a 6 minute 40 second stretch to go up by 12 points. We then gave up 30 points in just under 10 minutes, so...yeah, the screen roll defense still needs work.

Along that line, the real killer to me was allowing Wake to rebound over 40 percent of their misses -- and they didn't even miss that much! We would have spells where we denied Wake good looks and protected the 3 point line, but all the switching and getting off balance after the first screen led to too many offensive rebounds for Wake. Amile in particular is being asked to do too much -- anytime there was a breach created by a Wake screen or a guard blowing by someone in the open court, Amile switches on the perimeter and then we give up mismatches in other areas and/or give up offensive rebounds.

Collins is a stud though, and full credit to him for making life so difficult for us. Grayson had good moments but clearly the ankle is still bothering him -- it's a sign of how much talent we have that the other players could pick up the slack and produce that kind of offensive performance without him. In fact, everyone was going so good that Tatum didn't take any shots in the final ten minutes of the game and didn't have too many touches in the 2nd half generally.

Thought the way the offense was running in stretches of the first and second halves was as good as anything we've done all year. Jayson looks more in control initiating his moves and making decisions on whether to drive, take a jumper, or pass out to a shooter (the charge call on him was terrible). Frank also looks a bit more in control, even though he still favors putting his head down on drives occasionally. Watching our multiple talented offensive options share the ball and demonstrate an awareness of each other can be breathtaking.

Games like this happen over the course of a season with this young a team. I think a healthy Grayson and one of the other bigs giving us better minutes would have made this a more comfortable win. Giles in particular had a really rough game: 4 minutes, 3 fouls, 2 points, one turnover, minus 8. The game just looked too fast for him today, unlike against Virginia. Two steps forward, one step back.

superdave
02-18-2017, 02:58 PM
* Loved what we saw from Bolden today. Don't blame him a bit for losing a man on the interior when he double-teamed out beyond the 3 point line. Presumably he was hedging on the double-team by design but it's an issue that needs attention.

The help never came. Not Bolden's fault.

If he can avoid fouls, Bolden would be on the floor more.

superdave
02-18-2017, 03:02 PM
We gave up 1.38 pts/possession! At home. That may be a record bad defense efficiency for us?


Vermont a few years ago?

dukelifer
02-18-2017, 03:05 PM
we missed the front ends of two one and ones. tightened things up.

Matt's miss was bad as Duke was up 5 and they came down to score. But when Grayson missed- Wake missed on their end and Tatum got the rebound with 31 seconds only up 1. Duke made 6 in a row from that point on.

jv001
02-18-2017, 03:07 PM
Fun game for the neutral...ridiculous offensive performance by both teams. Not so great if you're a Duke fan who was hoping some defense would be played.

Only 11 turnovers total in the game, and only ONE turnover for each team in the second half.

As others have noted, Wake lived in the paint and at the line, while we were outstanding shooting the 3. I did like that we got paint points from Amile...i felt like the trend in recent games was toward the wings dominating and neglecting the post. We do have fantastic perimeter players, of course, but being able to diversify the attack from time to time helps.

Hard to believe, but we actually had a decent defensive run in the second half (similar to the end of the UNC game) where we held Wake to 8 points in a 6 minute 40 second stretch to go up by 12 points. We then gave up 30 points in just under 10 minutes, so...yeah, the screen roll defense still needs work.

Along that line, the real killer to me was allowing Wake to rebound over 40 percent of their misses -- and they didn't even miss that much! We would have spells where we denied Wake good looks and protected the 3 point line, but all the switching and getting off balance after the first screen led to too many offensive rebounds for Wake. Amile in particular is being asked to do too much -- anytime there was a breach created by a Wake screen or a guard blowing by someone in the open court, Amile switches on the perimeter and then we give up mismatches in other areas and/or give up offensive rebounds.

Collins is a stud though, and full credit to him for making life so difficult for us. Grayson had good moments but clearly the ankle is still bothering him -- it's a sign of how much talent we have that the other players could pick up the slack and produce that kind of offensive performance without him. In fact, everyone was going so good that Tatum didn't take any shots in the final ten minutes of the game and didn't have too many touches in the 2nd half generally.

Thought the way the offense was running in stretches of the first and second halves was as good as anything we've done all year. Jayson looks more in control initiating his moves and making decisions on whether to drive, take a jumper, or pass out to a shooter (the charge call on him was terrible). Frank also looks a bit more in control, even though he still favors putting his head down on drives occasionally. Watching our multiple talented offensive options share the ball and demonstrate an awareness of each other can be breathtaking.Games like this happen over the course of a season with this young a team. I think a healthy Grayson and one of the other bigs giving us better minutes would have made this a more comfortable win. Giles in particular had a really rough game: 4 minutes, 3 fouls, 2 points, one turnover, minus 8. The game just looked too fast for him today, unlike against Virginia. Two steps forward, one step back.

Some very good points. Amile is having to do a lot, but I don't know if it's all on the coaches. It seemed like he could have avoided switching onto one of Wake's guards a few times without giving up a 3 pointer. Frank came in for Grayson early when Grayson drove into the defense and made a bad pass. Frank then made some very good plays. He seems to be our 3rd best defender behind Matt and Amile.
A fun game to watch if you like offense with very little defense. GoDuke!

BD80
02-18-2017, 03:08 PM
... Collins was the second coming of Timmy Duncan.

And Childress was the second coming of ... Childress.

There must be something in that family's DNA that enjoys playing in Cameron.

DukieInKansas
02-18-2017, 03:10 PM
West Virginia lost to Kansas too. Duke will jump Wisconsin and Kansas.

I'm assuming you mean Duke will jump Wisconsin and West Virginia. KU managed to come back from a 14 point deficit with about 2minutes left to go on and win in OT. Some "fans" saw the parking lots & traffic instead of the end of the game.

superdave
02-18-2017, 03:11 PM
What was going on defensively today? Someone suggested Duke was playing Collins straight up and forcing the rest of Wake to win the game. Also, Duke was guarding the 3pt line.

Duke guarded the PNR ok at times. I love Bolden's hedging. I thought the 1-2-2 helped control the pace. I think the issue was Duke just didnt want it bad enough on D, until late. Couple that with a few bailout foul calls by the refs and Duke was lucky to escape.

These games happen, and it's great to learn a new way to win, but I would love to see our guys exert their will on lesser teams. May not be in the cards for this year.

Super "Just Win, Baby!" Dave

Skydog
02-18-2017, 03:14 PM
Vermont a few years ago?

Impressive - you are right of course: 196th ranked Vermont had same 1.38pt/poss against us. We won 91-90 with our 1.40 pt/poss. Smoked 'em! :)

arnie
02-18-2017, 03:14 PM
Nice team effort in this win (6 guys in double figures), but holy cow we really made a ton of mistakes defensively. We also had no answer for Collins 1 on 1 down low. Amile did by far the best of our bigs on him, but he had his way with anyone who tried to guard him. I dunno why we didn't try to make an adjustment when they kept getting our guards to switch onto him, but we've gotta communicate better in the future to avoid those kinds of mismatches against elite interior scorers. No question Collins was the reason Harry and Marques played a combined 3 seconds in the 2nd half.

That missed box out on the free throw by Harry that lead to a Wake offensive rebound and 3 really kind of hammered home for me why Harry and Marques aren't playing more. Both of them are demonstrably uber-talented, but they aren't quite as locked into those minute details that can win or lose a game down the stretch, and neither of them have learned how to play defense without fouling yet.

I had the exact same thoughts. Watching Harry and Bolden closeup and playing several minutes each, it's obvious to me neither player is ready. Kind of doubt will see either make a huge contribution this year, but at least they're protection if Amile fouls out. I think K will play 6 + a few minutes of relief for Amile rest of the way. It's what it is.

MB in MD
02-18-2017, 03:15 PM
This is one of few games that I can recall us winning when the other team had a player just "go nuts" on us.




http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/terps/tracking-the-terps/bal-sp-bias-01.dfrmlerml43o43043-043jpg-20010329-photo.html

Coach K: "Best performance ever by an opposing player in Durham" Of course that was 30 years ago but I'll bet it stands the test of time.

jv001
02-18-2017, 03:19 PM
What was going on defensively today? Someone suggested Duke was playing Collins straight up and forcing the rest of Wake to win the game. Also, Duke was guarding the 3pt line.

Duke guarded the PNR ok at times. I love Bolden's hedging. I thought the 1-2-2 helped control the pace. I think the issue was Duke just didnt want it bad enough on D, until late. Couple that with a few bailout foul calls by the refs and Duke was lucky to escape.

These games happen, and it's great to learn a new way to win, but I would love to see our guys exert their will on lesser teams. May not be in the cards for this year.

Super "Just Win, Baby!" Dave

I don't want to play Wake in the ACCT. We just don't match up very well with the Deacs. I know we won both games in the regular season, but we could have easily lost both games. The defense we ran today gave up too many easy baskets to Collins and they missed some open 3 pointers. They hit most of their free throws and there were a lot of them. They got the "and one" several times, where we got the basket and "play on". GoDuke!

Kedsy
02-18-2017, 03:19 PM
This is one of few games that I can recall us winning when the other team had a player just "go nuts" on us.

FWIW, we won the Bootsy game. I haven't checked, but I think we actually win most of the games when some opponent goes off for a career high.

BandAlum83
02-18-2017, 03:20 PM
I'm assuming you mean Duke will jump Wisconsin and West Virginia. KU managed to come back from a 14 point deficit with about 2minutes left to go on and win in OT. Some "fans" saw the parking lots & traffic instead of the end of the game.

WVU down 2 with 1:29 to go against Texas Tech - At home.

Even if they pull it out, I agree they move down after losing to Kansas also earlier in the week.

ETA: This is in overtime. WVU with ball, down one. 34 seconds on clock, 22 seconds on the shot clock

FadedTackyShirt
02-18-2017, 03:21 PM
Will always wonder where this team would be if Harry and Bolden had been healthy all season. Didn't see either in high school, but both have shown flashes. Sadly neither plays good defense and both foul too much. Team would have a much higher ceiling if even one of them were up to speed.

Doubt that Harry returns, but hopeful Bolden does. K does play a short rotation and he can get the production he needs from other players (Amile, Tatum), so both get quick hooks. Understand Harry's draft dilemma, but neither are ready for the NBA yet.

BandAlum83
02-18-2017, 03:27 PM
FWIW, we won the Bootsy game. I haven't checked, but I think we actually win most of the games when some opponent goes off for a career high.

Nervous Pervis say hi :(

BandAlum83
02-18-2017, 03:28 PM
WVU down 2 with 1:29 to go against Texas Tech - At home.

Even if they pull it out, I agree they move down after losing to Kansas also earlier in the week.

ETA: This is in overtime. WVU with ball, down one. 34 seconds on clock, 22 seconds on the shot clock

Double overtime now

slower
02-18-2017, 03:30 PM
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/terps/tracking-the-terps/bal-sp-bias-01.dfrmlerml43o43043-043jpg-20010329-photo.html

Coach K: "Best performance ever by an opposing player in Durham" Of course that was 30 years ago but I'll bet it stands the test of time.

Len Bias also stands the test of time. My favorite college player ever.

jv001
02-18-2017, 03:30 PM
Will always wonder where this team would be if Harry and Bolden had been healthy all season. Didn't see either in high school, but both have shown flashes. Sadly neither plays good defense and both foul too much. Team would have a much higher ceiling if even one of them were up to speed.

Doubt that Harry returns, but hopeful Bolden does. K does play a short rotation and he can get the production he needs from other players (Amile, Tatum), so both get quick hooks. Understand Harry's draft dilemma, but neither are ready for the NBA yet.

Duke's defense isn't easy to play and when you're a freshman that misses a lot of time due to injury, it's really hard to catch up. Both Marques and Harry seem to be a step behind where they should be. Some of it is having to think rather than react. Amile, Grayson, Luke and especially Matt have practiced it and even better have played it against some very good college players. Bolden and Harry have played it against high school players. We need to remember Harry missed almost 2 high school years. I wouldn't be surprised if one or both help us win a game before the seasons done. GoDuke!

Indoor66
02-18-2017, 03:31 PM
What is the"PNR"?

slower
02-18-2017, 03:32 PM
Nervous Pervis say hi :(

Is he related to NEVER Nervous Pervis? :p

jv001
02-18-2017, 03:32 PM
What is the"PNR"?

Pick Nose Right, :cool: Pick N Roll, I think. GoDuke!

CDu
02-18-2017, 03:32 PM
Well, I won't say that was good defense by us. Because, well, it wasn't. We were awful defensively. By the play-by-play, we allowed Wake to score or get to the line or both on 43 of 65 contested possessions. That is awful. Sure, Wake is good, but you simply should not allow a team to score on 2 of every three possessions. We tried hedge and recover in the first half and we tried switching on screens in the second. Neither worked.

Thankfully Wake couldn't defend us either. And extra-thankfully, we were amazing from 3. I will take the win, but we really need to be better defensively.

Offensively, everything worked. Everyone shot well except Allen, and even he got 6 assists. Great game by the team on one end, awful game by the team on the other. Thankfully Wake missed a couple of late layups, and thankfully we didn't miss much.

BandAlum83
02-18-2017, 03:33 PM
Is he related to NEVER Nervous Pervis? :p

He wasn't nervous in THAT game, for sure

jv001
02-18-2017, 03:34 PM
Well, I won't say that was good defense by us. Because, well, it wasn't. We were awful defensively. By the play-by-play, we allowed Wake to score or get to the line or both on 43 of 65 contested possessions. That is awful. Sure, Wake is good, but you simply should not allow a team to score on 2 of every three possessions. We tried hedge and recover in the first half and we tried switching on screens in the second. Neither worked.

Thankfully Wake couldn't defend us either. And extra-thankfully, we were amazing from 3. I will take the win, but we really need to be better defensively.

Offensively, everything worked. Everyone shot well except Allen, and even he got 6 assists. Great game by the team on one end, awful game by the team on the other. Thankfully Wake missed a couple of late layups, and thankfully we didn't miss much.

I agree on all you said but would add that we played our best defense on those couple of missed layups. I was expecting to hear the whistle blow as it had through out the game. GoDuke!

dukelifer
02-18-2017, 03:35 PM
FWIW, we won the Bootsy game. I haven't checked, but I think we actually win most of the games when some opponent goes off for a career high.

Bootsy won the second time with a double double in Cameron.

budwom
02-18-2017, 03:36 PM
What was going on defensively today? Someone suggested Duke was playing Collins straight up and forcing the rest of Wake to win the game. Also, Duke was guarding the 3pt line.

Duke guarded the PNR ok at times. I love Bolden's hedging. I thought the 1-2-2 helped control the pace. I think the issue was Duke just didnt want it bad enough on D, until late. Couple that with a few bailout foul calls by the refs and Duke was lucky to escape.

These games happen, and it's great to learn a new way to win, but I would love to see our guys exert their will on lesser teams. May not be in the cards for this year.

Super "Just Win, Baby!" Dave

It seemed to me that Amile switched off of Collins at least a dozen times, leaving guys like Kennard, Jones and Jackson to guard him...Collins spent half the game
waving for the ball due to mismatches. At some point I thought we might try another approach...but yes, a win is a win. However that was some ugly defense.

Ggallagher
02-18-2017, 03:37 PM
I think someone in the chat today said they thought Grayson was still playing hurt. The locker room picture would suggest that he's still playing with a busted wheel.

7199

uh_no
02-18-2017, 03:38 PM
i'm not sure which round it will be in, but whoever beats us in the tournament will score the deciding bucket on either an uncontested layup, or with frank jackson guarding a big man.

hoping we outscore these kinds of opponents is a huge die to roll. the defense has to be better. period.

jv001
02-18-2017, 03:40 PM
I think someone in the chat today said they thought Grayson was still playing hurt. The locker room picture would suggest that he's still playing with a busted wheel.

7199

Great picture and it looks like Grayson's ankle is still giving him trouble. Good to see Tyus and Oak there today. Shoes you can be a one and done and still be a big Duke fan. The 2015 team really liked each other and that helped them to come together just at the right time. GoDuke!

jv001
02-18-2017, 03:44 PM
i'm not sure which round it will be in, but whoever beats us in the tournament will score the deciding bucket on either an uncontested layup, or with frank jackson guarding a big man.

hoping we outscore these kinds of opponents is a huge die to roll. the defense has to be better. period.

I wish Harry or Marques would step up so that Coach K would have confidence to play them with Amile when we play a team that has a good front court. We shall see. Never the less, I'm very happy with the win even though defense was lacking from both teams. GoDuke!

Bob Green
02-18-2017, 03:46 PM
Nervous Pervis say hi :(

Correction - it is Never Nervous Pervis.

dukejim1
02-18-2017, 03:48 PM
Our spurt that took us to a double figure lead had a significant defense adjustment to it. Each time (about 3 or 4 straight stops) they ran the high pick and roll with Collins, Jefferson stayed on the ball with Matt or Frank fronting Collins as he rolled preventing the pass to him from the top and then when they would swing it to the side Jefferson was sloughing off his guy to allow him to get behind Collins while the shorter defender was still fronting him. To his credit, Manning made a change in his offense where they went to other options instead of forcing it inside to Collins. Jefferson had to recover back and the shorter defender was left on an island with Collins. Then we had to adjust back and the layup line started again. Wake is a tough offense to stop but we needed to contend better off the dribble so we didn't have to leave Collins as much. The unplanned strategy was that we gave them so many layups in a row that they either got tired or overconfident that caused them to miss the most two crucial ones of the game.
Keep working keep getting better

TKG
02-18-2017, 03:52 PM
From K's press conference: "Our ball screen defense stinks!"

While praising MB's minutes K did explain that if he played Marques in the second half, Marques would have been forced to defend the ball screen and AJ was doing a better job of that in the second half.

jv001
02-18-2017, 03:53 PM
Our spurt that took us to a double figure lead had a significant defense adjustment to it. Each time (about 3 or 4 straight stops) they ran the high pick and roll with Collins, Jefferson stayed on the ball with Matt or Frank fronting Collins as he rolled preventing the pass to him from the top and then when they would swing it to the side Jefferson was sloughing off his guy to allow him to get behind Collins while the shorter defender was still fronting him. To his credit, Manning made a change in his offense where they went to other options instead of forcing it inside to Collins. Jefferson had to recover back and the shorter defender was left on an island with Collins. Then we had to adjust back and the layup line started again. Wake is a tough offense to stop but we needed to contend better off the dribble so we didn't have to leave Collins as much. The unplanned strategy was that we gave them so many layups in a row that they either got tired or overconfident that caused them to miss the most two crucial ones of the game.
Keep working keep getting better

I don't think it was our not defending the dribble drive, it was we switched on almost every possession and Wake ran the play until Collins was guarded by one of our perimeter players. I think it was the scheme rather than execution on our part. Maybe Troublemaker or CDu can give us a better explanation. GoDuke!

Troublemaker
02-18-2017, 03:54 PM
Here's the full locker room picture.

Pretty cool that Okafor, Winslow, and TJones would spend their All-Star Break at Duke. Says a lot about the program, imo.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4-fPJzWMAE9Hlg.jpg

NashvilleDevil
02-18-2017, 04:05 PM
For all his points, Tatum had a poor game. His defense was pathetic. Out of position as often as in.

And yet his defense on the layup at the end caused the miss.

uh_no
02-18-2017, 04:08 PM
And yet his defense on the layup at the end caused the miss.

to me it looked more like a simple inopportune time to finally miss a layup more than anything tatum did especially well.

And maybe K asked the '15 trio to come by and teach them how to step up their defense for the run to march....

arnie
02-18-2017, 04:09 PM
And yet his defense on the layup at the end caused the miss.

Plus he had a growth spurt after the game.

ipatent
02-18-2017, 04:09 PM
Didn't see the game, but not a good sign shooting 48% from three and still squeaking by Wake at home.

Skydog
02-18-2017, 04:09 PM
It seemed to me that Amile switched off of Collins at least a dozen times, leaving guys like Kennard, Jones and Jackson to guard him...Collins spent half the game
waving for the ball due to mismatches. At some point I thought we might try another approach...but yes, a win is a win. However that was some ugly defense.

Sounds like that was done on purpose, due to K's adjustment at halftime:

"... In the second half we just switched everything. We thought we could not go zone. Our ball screen defense stinks. Let's switch and if they want to take advantage of us at least they will not be driving and they'll be two-point shots. "

So K decided to try to switch every time even if it resulted in mismatches - he thought it was better than trying and failing to fight through picks and giving up open lanes. That's why we kept seeing Kennard and even Allen on Collins (!). In any case it the adjustment didn't work - our D still sucked.

Troublemaker
02-18-2017, 04:09 PM
I don't think it was our not defending the dribble drive, it was we switched on almost every possession and Wake ran the play until Collins was guarded by one of our perimeter players. I think it was the scheme rather than execution on our part. Maybe Troublemaker or CDu can give us a better explanation. GoDuke!

I think CDu and others already explained it well. Duke tried standard pick and roll coverages in the 1st half (mostly hedge, some ice) and they didn't work. In the 2nd half, we switched everything and hoped that our 3-pointers, 2-pointers, and free throws could beat their 2-pointers. It was closer than comfortable because we missed a couple of key 1-and-1s AND we fouled too much, including a couple of key And-1s for them. (So it wasn't just 2-pointers for Wake. It was 2s and FTs).

We have three upcoming opponents that will continue to test our pick and roll defense: @Cuse, @Miami, FSU.

Credit to Wake, too, as they probably have the best personnel for spread pick-and-roll in the conference.

weezie
02-18-2017, 04:10 PM
Here's the full locker room picture.

Pretty cool that Okafor, Winslow, and TJones would spend their All-Star Break at Duke. Says a lot about the program, imo.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4-fPJzWMAE9Hlg.jpg


Mason must be the one taking the picture.

And whoever says Tatum's defense was "pathetic" is utterly and completely wrong and blind. That's a terrible nasty thing to say.

uh_no
02-18-2017, 04:11 PM
Sounds like that was done on purpose, due to K's adjustment at halftime:

"... In the second half we just switched everything. We thought we could not go zone. Our ball screen defense stinks. Let's switch and if they want to take advantage of us at least they will not be driving and they'll be two-point shots. "

So K decided to try to switch every time even if it resulted in mismatches - he thought it was better than trying and failing to fight through picks and giving up open lanes. That's why we kept seeing Kennard and even Allen on Collins (!). In any case it the adjustment didn't work - our D still sucked.

did he expound on why they thought zone was out?

WHOneedsSOX
02-18-2017, 04:12 PM
I completely forgot about Jeter. Is he still hurt?

Saratoga2
02-18-2017, 04:17 PM
Here's the full locker room picture.

Pretty cool that Okafor, Winslow, and TJones would spend their All-Star Break at Duke. Says a lot about the program, imo.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4-fPJzWMAE9Hlg.jpg

Great picture. I am reminded by it that we have additional players that might be used in a pinch but probably not this year. Javin and Jack both are good athletes and should get their chance next year.

WHOneedsSOX
02-18-2017, 04:18 PM
Here's the full locker room picture.

Pretty cool that Okafor, Winslow, and TJones would spend their All-Star Break at Duke. Says a lot about the program, imo.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4-fPJzWMAE9Hlg.jpg

Great to see Tyus, Justise, and Jahlil still hang out together. They'll always be bonded by that championship. Such great chemistry that team had.

jv001
02-18-2017, 04:19 PM
I think CDu and others already explained it well. Duke tried standard pick and roll coverages in the 1st half (mostly hedge, some ice) and they didn't work. In the 2nd half, we switched everything and hoped that our 3-pointers, 2-pointers, and free throws could beat their 2-pointers. It was closer than comfortable because we missed a couple of key 1-and-1s AND we fouled too much, including a couple of key And-1s for them.

We have three upcoming opponents that will continue to test our pick and roll defense: @Cuse, @Miami, FSU.

Credit to Wake, too, as they probably have the best personnel for spread pick-and-roll in the conference.

Wake Forest has in Collins the best post player in the conference. He can hurt you around the basket(low-post) and mid-range. Their back court players are good as well. Crawford and Woods are really good and they bring capable back ups off the bench. Their defense seems to be holding them back. When Matt and Grayson missed the front end of 1-1s, I remembered the game in Winston Salem where I believe Wake missed some key FTs at the end. I was hoping that wouldn't be the case for us. GoDuke!

dukelifer
02-18-2017, 04:20 PM
I think someone in the chat today said they thought Grayson was still playing hurt. The locker room picture would suggest that he's still playing with a busted wheel.

7199

That would have been me. In the pregame- K said that Grayson and Amile are not practicing to try to keep them from further injury. Grayson was healthy for the first time two weeks ago and finally started to play well. His ankle is gimpy now- affecting his push off. Subtle change in mechanics can have a big effect on shooters. K said that the post season will define this team and he wants everyone ready to go.

MaxAMillion
02-18-2017, 04:29 PM
I love Coach K's press conferences. I always learn things even when he tries not to be forthcoming. He talked about how in the second half they decided to switch everything. That would at least limit some drives and make them basically a two point shooting team rather than three point shooting. He said that Bolden played well in the first half but he didn't play him in the second half because they would have to change their defense. He felt the switching defense made their offense tougher even though the defense still struggled (I thought that was interesting).

You can see the injuries bother K a lot. He stated he would bench Jefferson and Allen for a couple of weeks if this was the NBA. Allen struggles because his body doesn't allow him to do the things he wants to do and he is learning. K talked about how he has to figure out how to get them healthy (not really sure how you do that if they already don't practice). Maybe he sits them or reduces minutes.

I really wish there was a way to get all these guys healthy at once. I really think they could develop into something if that happened.

sagegrouse
02-18-2017, 04:36 PM
Great to see Tyus, Justise, and Jahlil still hang out together. They'll always be bonded by that championship. Such great chemistry that team had.

Not so great to see the wrap on Grayson's ankle and that he appears not to be putting weight on his left foot.

jv001
02-18-2017, 04:37 PM
I love Coach K's press conferences. I always learn things even when he tries not to be forthcoming. He talked about how in the second half they decided to switch everything. That would at least limit some drives and make them basically a two point shooting team rather than three point shooting. He said that Bolden played well in the first half but he didn't play him in the second half because they would have to change their defense. He felt the switching defense made their offense tougher even though the defense still struggled (I thought that was interesting).

You can see the injuries bother K a lot. He stated he would bench Jefferson and Allen for a couple of weeks if this was the NBA. Allen struggles because his body doesn't allow him to do the things he wants to do and he is learning. K talked about how he has to figure out how to get them healthy (not really sure how you do that if they already don't practice). Maybe he sits them or reduces minutes. I really wish there was a way to get all these guys healthy at once. I really think they could develop into something if that happened.

With Grayson, he has a good back up in Frank. Matter of fact it looked like Frank got us going when he subbed for Grayson early in the first half. But Amile doesn't have a good back up player in Harry and Marques. Well, at least not yet. I would like to see them both be like Grayson in 2015. He stepped up when Rasheed was dismissed from the team and we know how that turned out. GoDuke!

Skydog
02-18-2017, 04:39 PM
did he expound on why they thought zone was out?

I just posted what was quoted in the N&O - don't know what else he said. Maybe it was as simple as "they have great a bunch of great 3 pt shooters (38.5% as a team) - we can't risk them lighting it up if we go zone"?

I also never understood why we completely abandoned our 3/4 court "slow'em down soft zone" after our made baskets. It seems to help us every time we do it (and it really turned the VA game around) but we completely quit using it in the 2nd half (well until the final 30 secs or so).

Finally I don't understand why we our weak side help is so often absent these days. Several times Jefferson was in position to step over just a few feet to contest a driver with an open lane to the basket but instead stayed with his guy even though it meant WF would get a completely uncontested layup. I understand it is a difficult skill to know when to step up and when to stay on your man but in some of the cases it just seemed obvious.

It's just an impression but it seems to me that in the last few seasons we've lost the great weak side help skills Duke used to be known for. In days of old if our perimeter player got beat a teammate would be there to take his place - contesting the shot or drawing a charge. I know charges are harder to draw these days and I know we have OAD's that are just learning defense but it seems like more than that. For example today's defensive laps weren't just on the freshmen.

kmspeaks
02-18-2017, 04:49 PM
I just posted what was quoted in the N&O - don't know what else he said. Maybe it was as simple as "they have great a bunch of great 3 pt shooters (38.5% as a team) - we can't risk them lighting it up if we go zone"?

I also never understood why we completely abandoned our 3/4 court "slow'em down soft zone" after our made baskets. It seems to help us every time we do it (and it really turned the VA game around) but we completely quit using it in the 2nd half (well until the final 30 secs or so).

Finally I don't understand why we our weak side help is so often absent these days. Several times Jefferson was in position to step over just a few feet to contest a driver with an open lane to the basket but instead stayed with his guy even though it meant WF would get a completely uncontested layup. I understand it is a difficult skill to know when to step up and when to stay on your man but in some of the cases it just seemed obvious.

It's just an impression but it seems to me that in the last few seasons we've lost the great weak side help skills Duke used to be known for. In days of old if our perimeter player got beat a teammate would be there to take his place - contesting the shot or drawing a charge. I know charges are harder to draw these days and I know we have OAD's that are just learning defense but it seems like more than that. For example today's defensive laps weren't just on the freshmen.

I could be wrong, and would have to look at a play-by-play or re-watch to be sure, but it felt like Wake Forest shredded that pressure in the first half. We started the game in it and they got some very easy scores after breaking it.

Rich
02-18-2017, 04:51 PM
Finally I don't understand why we our weak side help is so often absent these days. Several times Jefferson was in position to step over just a few feet to contest a driver with an open lane to the basket but instead stayed with his guy even though it meant WF would get a completely uncontested layup. I understand it is a difficult skill to know when to step up and when to stay on your man but in some of the cases it just seemed obvious.

Just guessing, but to keep Amile out of foul trouble.

jv001
02-18-2017, 04:52 PM
I just posted what was quoted in the N&O - don't know what else he said. Maybe it was as simple as "they have great a bunch of great 3 pt shooters (38.5% as a team) - we can't risk them lighting it up if we go zone"?

I also never understood why we completely abandoned our 3/4 court "slow'em down soft zone" after our made baskets. It seems to help us every time we do it (and it really turned the VA game around) but we completely quit using it in the 2nd half (well until the final 30 secs or so).

Finally I don't understand why we our weak side help is so often absent these days. Several times Jefferson was in position to step over just a few feet to contest a driver with an open lane to the basket but instead stayed with his guy even though it meant WF would get a completely uncontested layup. I understand it is a difficult skill to know when to step up and when to stay on your man but in some of the cases it just seemed obvious.

It's just an impression but it seems to me that in the last few seasons we've lost the great weak side help skills Duke used to be known for. In days of old if our perimeter player got beat a teammate would be there to take his place - contesting the shot or drawing a charge. I know charges are harder to draw these days and I know we have OAD's that are just learning defense but it seems like more than that. For example today's defensive laps weren't just on the freshmen.

With Amile knowing the Duke defense like he does, I would say it's a matter of quickness. Coach K mentioned that Amile is not 100% and that would surely affect his quickness. GoDuke!

MChambers
02-18-2017, 04:54 PM
FWIW, we won the Bootsy game. I haven't checked, but I think we actually win most of the games when some opponent goes off for a career high.
Not in 1978, unfortunately, but i think you're correct as to the Coach K era.

wsb3
02-18-2017, 05:15 PM
Not in 1978, unfortunately, but i think you're correct as to the Coach K era.

You just had to bring that one up didn't you? I was almost over it...;)

Neals384
02-18-2017, 05:58 PM
I thought it was really cool that K gave Capel's dad a spot on the bench.

MChambers
02-18-2017, 06:23 PM
You just had to bring that one up didn't you? I was almost over it...;)
You and I and many others will never be over it!

duketaylor
02-18-2017, 06:24 PM
Glad y'all got to watch the game as we here in Richmond were shut out unless streaming; I went to my sports bar to watch and they couldn't get it or the Baylor/KU game thru Directv. Very disappointing; will let the ACC I disapprove of their control of games. Pathetic. This should never happen these days.
Any ideas about how to rectify this other than driving to NC to avoid watching VT versus Duke via the ACCNetwork?

wsb3
02-18-2017, 06:30 PM
I thought it was really cool that K gave Capel's dad a spot on the bench.

Class act...And the game ball..

Newton_14
02-18-2017, 07:02 PM
BP 200/100
P 170

davekay around?

:o
Mine was just as bad or worse along with my texting buddies Superdave, GreenWaveDukie, an NashvilleDevil. Geez wheeze Louise. Just a bizarre game. Every once in awhile the basketball gods throw us one of these games where neither team can stop a toilet up let alone prevent a basket. It was just maddening from the opening tip to the final layup by Wake at the buzzer. We scored 99 with Grayson at about 40%, and with the two frontend 1 and 1 misses that almost bit us. We defended and rebounded just well enough to force the two layup misses by Wood (Both attempts were defended well at the point of release) to pull out the win.

Several including myself were hoping for a beatdown today, and the offense for sure held up their end of the bargain for that goal, but my gosh our defense was just awful today. Down the stretch I thought both teams were worn slam out and running of fumes. Tatum was gassed, Collins was gassed, others weren't far behind those two. However, our man Matt whose has played so wonderfully lately really hurt us with one bonehead play when he fouled on the 3 pointer that went in. We were rolling at that point and Cameron had gotten really loud, and that one play turned the game. From 12 down to 8 in a blink of an eye and suddenly Wake got their mojo back. I think we run away and hide from them if that play doesn't happen. Later on with 2 mins left we miss out on a rebound then the defense gets scrambled and Childress gets a wide open 3 pointer which he drained to cut it to I believe 1. Two small defensive lapses and Wake gets 7 points on two possessions.

To state the obvious I thought all 8 of our guys played really well offensively today, but our individual and team defense just was not there. I chalk it up to just one of those wild games where the offensive execution is just so high the defense just can't withstand the onslaught by either team. An anomaly. I expect our defense to be back up to par the next time out.

7 in a row! Like Brockt10? I think that's close to the posters name, for games where I watch on Tv I started wearing my Black JJ/Boozer #4 jersey the first time we played Wake in a very much superstitious move, then switched to my black Grant Hill #33 Jersey starting with the uncCheat game. So far so good!!!

Go Duke!

Wander
02-18-2017, 07:17 PM
Several including myself were hoping for a beatdown today


Is our inability to blow anybody out (aside from one game against GT) an early warning sign concerning our ability to win a national championship, or reflective of how good the middle and bottom of the ACC is this year? Tough to tell...

slower
02-18-2017, 07:26 PM
Just finished watching the game and it confirmed my feelings about Crawford. He's a complete punk. My dislike has evolved into loathing. Not gonna say that I wish injury upon him, but I won't give a crap if somebody elbows him in the mouth. I'd actually kind of enjoy it.

slower
02-18-2017, 07:30 PM
Is our inability to blow anybody out (aside from one game against GT) an early warning sign concerning our ability to win a national championship, or reflective of how good the middle and bottom of the ACC is this year? Tough to tell...

Gonna vote for early warning sign. If Wake can do this to us at home, it does not bode well for championship aspirations. Still room for improvement, though.

gofurman
02-18-2017, 07:43 PM
We shot 59% and 13-27 from three !! Tell me that pre game I think Duke won by 20. We escaped. Win is a win. Conference win. But dang we can't win easy on anyone ... I know. The Acc is crazy hard but the Clemson and Wake games were our best shots at 'easy wins

I want D.

And health. Those two things will determine post-season. I see my thoughts are in line w Ks comments. We just can't get fully healthy. Everyone is available but Allen and Amile are gimpy

Regardless we need better more consistent D

WVDUKEFAN
02-18-2017, 07:46 PM
What was going on defensively today? Someone suggested Duke was playing Collins straight up and forcing the rest of Wake to win the game. Also, Duke was guarding the 3pt line.

Duke guarded the PNR ok at times. I love Bolden's hedging. I thought the 1-2-2 helped control the pace. I think the issue was Duke just didnt want it bad enough on D, until late. Couple that with a few bailout foul calls by the refs and Duke was lucky to escape.

These games happen, and it's great to learn a new way to win, but I would love to see our guys exert their will on lesser teams. May not be in the cards for this year.

Super "Just Win, Baby!" Dave

I was wondering the same thing. I thought our defense had really improved. It didn't show it today. I also thing they may have taken Wake a little light. It's still a win.

NashvilleDevil
02-18-2017, 07:47 PM
Is our inability to blow anybody out (aside from one game against GT) an early warning sign concerning our ability to win a national championship, or reflective of how good the middle and bottom of the ACC is this year? Tough to tell...

Gonna vote that the ACC is really good and this helps Duke in March and April. Think about the 99 team and all the blowouts they had. Their one close game the last part of the year was against St. John's and they didn't have the reps in close games like UConn had. Also what teams are elite defensively? Is their a team that can stop a healthy Duke if guys are playing offense like they did today? Wake played lights out offensively (with some fortunate calls that gave them free points) and Duke still hung 99 on them.

weezie
02-18-2017, 07:51 PM
Class act...And the game ball..

And K embraced Jeff Sr. and gave him a kiss after the game. Then he embraced Jeff Jr.

Our K has a huuuuuge heart.

TruBlu
02-18-2017, 07:56 PM
What is the"PNR"?


Pick Nose Right, :cool: Pick N Roll, I think. GoDuke!

"Pick Nose Right" might be a more accurate description of our defense of the PNR. Bless their hearts, I'm sure the players are trying, and the coaches are trying to come up with a plan, but it sure is frustrating to see so many layups.

On the bright side, if you discount the layups and free throws for both teams, we won this game by a score of approximately 81 to 25:o. (Yes, I know that someone is going to do a complete study of the play by play to come up with a more accurate computation, but I'm too busy pulling for UVA against the cheaters.)

As others have stated, a win is a win, and we now have 7 in a row.

Go Duke, and GTHC!

dukelifer
02-18-2017, 07:58 PM
We shot 59% and 13-27 from three !! Tell me that pre game I think Duke won by 20. We escaped. Win is a win. Conference win. But dang we can't win easy on anyone ... I know. The Acc is crazy hard but the Clemson and Wake games were our best shots at 'easy wins

I want D.

And health. Those two things will determine post-season. I see my thoughts are in line w Ks comments. We just can't get fully healthy. Everyone is available but Allen and Amile are gimpy

Regardless we need better more consistent D

Every game is different. Every matchup is different. This Duke team can win different ways. That is more important than a 20 or victory. The only advantage of those is that the bench gets to play more minutes.

WillJ
02-18-2017, 08:52 PM
Was at my only game this year. Wake was really good, IMO, especially Collins, but also Crawford.
We played well on offense, but obviously we didn't play great defense as a team.....they got a lot of layups.

Ultrarunner
02-18-2017, 08:54 PM
i'm not sure which round it will be in, but whoever beats us in the tournament will score the deciding bucket on either an uncontested layup, or with frank jackson guarding a big man.

hoping we outscore these kinds of opponents is a huge die to roll. the defense has to be better. period.

Nonsense. The last game of the season, Grayson, Luke, and Jayson will all shot lights-out in the same game, Harry will break out and bounce back to the top draft pick, Amile will shut down the inside and double-double the other big guy, Matt goes 5-6 from three with three sick steals, Frank breaks out a la Grayson versus the Badgers.

Vrank get three minutes and four fouls, Jeter with six minutes and two blocks and one not-quite a three-second violation.

We win, btw.

JD for Three!
02-18-2017, 09:10 PM
Just a few thoughts from a perspective of many years close to the game...
Giles and Bolden are going to be awesome at some point. Right now, they both come in and make a couple of positive plays, but then they brain fart and each commit a couple of fairly dumb fouls. That's a freshman thing. You learn to get past those with enough coaching and growth. Sometimes it's the enthusiasm of getting in after sitting for so long, but for a coach, you can't afford to have guts giving away cheap fouls. Not in a league as tight as the ACC this year.
Next, without meaning to complain about refs, sometimes they just call the game or see the game out of balance. That causes situations like today where one team shoots way too many free throws. My perspective on our defense today is related to this. I think we got two early charges/offensive fouls today that were total bs. A small push off to create space. A prEtty common part of the game today. I say that because Collins, as well as he played, had a habit, it you watch the replays, of dropping his shoulder to push off our defender just enough to get space to get his shot off. My opinion is the refs call them all, or swallow the whistle on them all. I think we got enough tricky-tick/bad calls against us early that we started giving up space on defense.
I will finish with my ref I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. call of the day. Second half, Frank is dribbling out between the three point line and mid-court. He's bumped, pushed and pawed at five or six times. Finally, he gets a little pi$$ed off and pushes off a bit. He's called for an offensive foul, but the ref behind the play overrides the call and says he was fouled first by the defender. My question is was it the first, second...fifth contact that was the foul, and why didn't this second ref call a Gould on the defense until after there was a reAlly poor call against Frank?
I don't like to complain about refs. I like to think all of the horrible calls even out over time. My concern is just that there are so many horrible calls.

Olympic Fan
02-18-2017, 09:23 PM
Second half, Frank is dribbling out between the three point line and mid-court. He's bumped, pushed and pawed at five or six times. Finally, he gets a little pi$$ed off and pushes off a bit. He's called for an offensive foul, but the ref behind the play overrides the call and says he was fouled first by the defender. My question is was it the first, second...fifth contact that was the foul, and why didn't this second ref call a Gould on the defense until after there was a reAlly poor call against Frank?
I don't like to complain about refs. I like to think all of the horrible calls even out over time. My concern is just that there are so many horrible calls.

It was Jamie Luckie overriding Tony Greene (the gray-haired black ref). Moments later, Luckie came in to overrule Greene again in an out-of-bounds call (G5reene had called it Dule's ball, but Luckie got it right).

It was obvious at the end, Luckie had no faith in Greene -- nor should he. Greene was the source of most of the bad calls, including the ridiculous charge on Tatum -- a play that should have been no call (Tatum slid sideways past the defender, who flopped straight backwards. Several other calls that ticked me off. When Arians got the 4-point play it was like two possessions after Van Horn knocked down Grayson on almost exactly the same play -- with no call. And twice down the stretch, Duke scored driving layups vs. Collins when the Wake big man used his body to bump the driver -- the exact same thing that Duke was getting called for at the other end.

At one point, Wake had outshot Duke 17-4 from the foul line. I felt like I was watching a game being called under two rules -- when Wake had the ball, the new freedom of movement rules were in effect ... when Duke had the ball, it was the old no blood, no foul approach.

BTW: My rule of thumb -- you can only complain about the refs after a win ... complain after a loss (even if warranted) and if comes across as whining. That said, Bruce Benedict can rot in you-know-where.

JD for Three!
02-18-2017, 09:28 PM
Thanks. I am an '80 grad. Long-term lurker. Lost a user I'd...whatever. I am amazed at how the editing came into play on my post when I used a word that describes an orifice and even used two dollar signs in it! Pretty incredible.

Anyway, I agree with you. Particularly about the Tatum charge. The defender had to lean to swing his arm into making contact!

Newton_14
02-18-2017, 09:36 PM
Is our inability to blow anybody out (aside from one game against GT) an early warning sign concerning our ability to win a national championship, or reflective of how good the middle and bottom of the ACC is this year? Tough to tell...

I honestly think it's a combo of the league being so tough top to bottom along with injuries and tripgate stunting our growth. We are still a really good basketball team as is, but we could have been so much better had all the stuff not happened. There would have been no loss to State and some of these wins would have been by wider margins.

My two cents.

BandAlum83
02-18-2017, 10:08 PM
Maybe I'm oblivious, but I never really felt the outcome of this game was in doubt, even at halftimes.

Fairly early in the second half we went on a 9-0 / 17-5 run. Sure, they got close-really close- but I never worried. My pulse and BP were just fine.

FerryFor50
02-18-2017, 10:13 PM
It was Jamie Luckie overriding Tony Greene (the gray-haired black ref). Moments later, Luckie came in to overrule Greene again in an out-of-bounds call (G5reene had called it Dule's ball, but Luckie got it right).

It was obvious at the end, Luckie had no faith in Greene -- nor should he. Greene was the source of most of the bad calls, including the ridiculous charge on Tatum -- a play that should have been no call (Tatum slid sideways past the defender, who flopped straight backwards. Several other calls that ticked me off. When Arians got the 4-point play it was like two possessions after Van Horn knocked down Grayson on almost exactly the same play -- with no call. And twice down the stretch, Duke scored driving layups vs. Collins when the Wake big man used his body to bump the driver -- the exact same thing that Duke was getting called for at the other end.

At one point, Wake had outshot Duke 17-4 from the foul line. I felt like I was watching a game being called under two rules -- when Wake had the ball, the new freedom of movement rules were in effect ... when Duke had the ball, it was the old no blood, no foul approach.

BTW: My rule of thumb -- you can only complain about the refs after a win ... complain after a loss (even if warranted) and if comes across as whining. That said, Bruce Benedict can rot in you-know-where.

Glad I wasn't the only one who noticed this. I was yelling at the exact plays mentioned. Lots of uncalled contact on Duke drives. Been a trend all season.

NashvilleDevil
02-18-2017, 10:24 PM
Maybe I'm oblivious, but I never really felt the outcome of this game was in doubt, even at halftimes.

Fairly early in the second half we went on a 9-0 / 17-5 run. Sure, they got close-really close- but I never worried. My pulse and BP were just fine.

I was worried until Tatum made his free throws. At the under 4 it was 89-81, Duke. Then:
3:41 - Childress makes 3 (89-84)
3:20 - Matt misses front end
3:06 - Collins makes jumper and 1 (89-87)
2:44 - Amile layup (91-87)
2:29 - Childress layup and 1 (91-90)
2:11 - Luke layup (93-90)
1:53 - Childress misses 3
1:27 - Matt misses 3
1:17 - Crawford layup (93-92)
1:00 - Grayson misses front end
:34 - Crawford misses layup
:31 - Tatum makes both (95-92)
:19 - Crawford misses layup
:14 - Amile makes both (97-92)

My blood pressure may have gone up just a touch during that 3 minute sequence and the way Wake was getting to the basket I was waiting for them to get another and 1.

Olympic Fan
02-18-2017, 11:11 PM
Just got back from visiting the two main Wake Forest message boards out there.

I was curious to see why they thought Duke won.

To my surprise, their almost unanimous take was that Duke got all the calls ... they were screwed by the refs.

kmspeaks
02-19-2017, 02:22 AM
I don't like to complain about refs. I like to think all of the horrible calls even out over time. My concern is just that there are so many horrible calls.

This is the problem. I don't really think, even though I like to joke about how Hansbrough was officiated or the ridiculousness that UVA gets away with on both defense and offense, that referees have some inherent bias or they intentionally call things for or against a certain team. I just think they're not very good at their job. I watch games in which I have no rooting interest and still think the refs are bad. I'll never understand how a profession that should have a surplus of people who want to do the job still employs people who are just hopelessly incompetent.

smvalkyries
02-19-2017, 03:07 AM
Well our defense was atrocious but just perhaps it wasn't the players or coaches fault. In general we don't do very well when Jaime Lucky's crew or any crew tightly enforcing the no contact defense rule for that matter. In addition its especially hard coming afer the UVA (or Caolina) game where the refs let them play. Obviously defense negating tight calls hurt us a lot more than Wake as Wake plays no defense to start with and after our adjustment to the calls neither did we. Fortunately we out shot them. This really does not bode well for tournament play. If you negate defense any team can beat anyone else on any given night and we are bound to get some more Jaime Lucky like crews.
I am not sure whether our bad defense is really totally attributable to the style of the refs or if I prefer this explanation to the fact that our guys just can't defend under the no contact rules (but then again who can). If the later is the case I guess we really need to play a lot more functional zone a solution which also negates much of the effectiveness of our game. We have the best coaches in the game so if anyone can determine the cause and take the necessary actions to minimize the adverse effect of Lucky crews on our team they can. I do wish that they would do it pretty quickly though.
By the way I didn't really enjoy watching the game today with Wake constantly streaming to the basket and us countering with a barrage of threes. That was worse than the NBA game which I can't even watch anymore. As comparison I loved the UVA game. I am sure I am in the minority on both counts but I love basketball but not when perimeter defense is taken out of the game.

Bob Green
02-19-2017, 03:56 AM
To my surprise, their almost unanimous take was that Duke got all the calls ... they were screwed by the refs.

I'm surprised this surprises you. Fan bases are always like that.

I missed the majority of the VT game last Saturday because I played golf but I did see a few minutes at the start of the 2nd half in the club house. My golf partners were a Carolina fan and a Michigan fan who spent the entire few minutes carping about the refs not calling anything on Duke. "Allen pushed off there...Jefferson changed his pivot foot that's a walk...over the back on the rebound...geez these refs are handing the game to Duke..."

The same goes for fan base perspective on announcers. My Carolina fan co-workers hate Jay Bilas and Jay Williams claiming they do nothing but bad mouth Carolina and praise Duke. Their take on ESPN, "It's sickening the way ESPN loves Duke."

All fan bases believe the refs and announcers hate their team.

FadedTackyShirt
02-19-2017, 03:58 AM
Just got back from visiting the two main Wake Forest message boards out there.

I was curious to see why they thought Duke won.

To my surprise, their almost unanimous take was that Duke got all the calls ... they were screwed by the refs.

Not from North Carolina so don't know too many Wake grads, but their online persona is passive aggressive at best. Solid school and have had some very good teams and players, but can never get over the hump. Fine in person, but unusually bitter online.

Some really nasty schadenfreude about Giles. He's hurt and may never fully recover, but some serious butt hurt over spurning Wake. Collins is a really good player, but not like Harry would be a sure fire star at Wake. Can't imagine how much venom there would have been had hometown hero Chris Paul played for Duke or UNC.

NCSU and Maryland fans are nasty in person, so no surprise they're a mess online. UVa and Georgia Tech are also solid schools with inconsistent success, but much more reasonable. Really weird and sad dynamic with Wake. Would much rather have UVa than Wake as Duke's second permanent ACC hoops "rival", even though it wouldn't be as competitively advantageous as Wake.

Furniture
02-19-2017, 04:53 AM
K and the team.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/833128121587138562/video/1

Amile, Justice, Stones and Jahill plus a glimpse of Mason in the crowd.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/833105766307479553/video/1

Furniture
02-19-2017, 05:22 AM
I couldn't watch the game live but I was determined to watch it without knowing the score. At about 2 mins out I couldn't take it and had the check. Phew!

Devilwin
02-19-2017, 05:24 AM
There were (as per usual) bad calls both ways, although I think Wake got the most benefit from those (especially that charge on Tatum). That being said, we do need to fix the interior defense. But, I think having these tough scrapes now can only help us come tournament time. Wake, despite their record, is a solid team. It's the recent Clemson game that bothers me. I felt that we would win that one in the 13-20 point range. Someone said we hung 99 on Wake. True, but they hung 94 on us. Gotta do better than that. Fix the defense, we can win it all..
Oh, and win at UNC. Sweeping them would be terrific.

hsheffield
02-19-2017, 06:15 AM
Will always wonder where this team would be if Harry and Bolden had been healthy all season. Didn't see either in high school, but both have shown flashes. Sadly neither plays good defense and both foul too much. Team would have a much higher ceiling if even one of them were up to speed.

Doubt that Harry returns, but hopeful Bolden does. K does play a short rotation and he can get the production he needs from other players (Amile, Tatum), so both get quick hooks. Understand Harry's draft dilemma, but neither are ready for the NBA yet.

I think it's possible that both Giles and Bolden return. Giles seems pretty young for the NBA and could decide he needs another year to get healthy in what I suspect is a more supportive environment.

It's also possible (though perhaps less so) that Grayson comes back-they keep saying that 2018 NBA draft is less competitive. GA may want to try to drive his draft stock up into the lottery. I'm assuming that he's not really a lottery pick now unless he has a killer NCAA.

What do the rest of you think?

CDu
02-19-2017, 06:43 AM
I think it's possible that both Giles and Bolden return. Giles seems pretty young for the NBA and could decide he needs another year to get healthy in what I suspect is a more supportive environment.

It's also possible (though perhaps less so) that Grayson comes back-they keep saying that 2018 NBA draft is less competitive. GA may want to try to drive his draft stock up into the lottery. I'm assuming that he's not really a lottery pick now unless he has a killer NCAA.

What do the rest of you think?

Almost anything is possible. But I highly, highly doubt that Giles or Allen come back.

sagegrouse
02-19-2017, 06:58 AM
I think it's possible that both Giles and Bolden return. Giles seems pretty young for the NBA and could decide he needs another year to get healthy in what I suspect is a more supportive environment.

It's also possible (though perhaps less so) that Grayson comes back-they keep saying that 2018 NBA draft is less competitive. GA may want to try to drive his draft stock up into the lottery. I'm assuming that he's not really a lottery pick now unless he has a killer NCAA.

What do the rest of you think?

Re Grayson: Lessee.... What about this season makes another year of college hoops seem attractive? The injuries? The incident against Elon? The media storm over -- basically -- nothing? The suspension? The lack of need for more credits to graduate? If he needs more seasoning for the NBA, how about a year in Spain or Italy, a la Kyle and Danny?

Re Harry and Marques: Lessee.... They played ten minutes combined yesterday against Wake and had five fouls, although I thought one of Harry's was bogus. Both would be at the end of the bench in the NBA and probably spend a bunch of time in the Gatorade League, although at NBA rookie salaries. Both would benefit from another year of college ball in an environment like Duke, where they could develop their games and confidence. I doubt that Harry stays; in fact, his injury history suggests that he should start earning a paycheck as soon as possible. Marques? It depends on the interest shown by the league.

Ima Facultiwyfe
02-19-2017, 06:59 AM
I do not agree. It appeared to me the defensive philosophy was to try to force Collins to beat us by himself. He came up short.

He sure is tall to come up short.
Love, Ima

lotusland
02-19-2017, 07:28 AM
Just got back from visiting the two main Wake Forest message boards out there.

I was curious to see why they thought Duke won.

To my surprise, their almost unanimous take was that Duke got all the calls ... they were screwed by the refs.

I read this post as a bit of snark against dukies terping about the refs and announcers. Maybe I'm wrong but seems funny to read follow up posts about the general online character of wake fans.

azzefkram
02-19-2017, 08:21 AM
Glad I wasn't the only one who noticed this. I was yelling at the exact plays mentioned. Lots of uncalled contact on Duke drives. Been a trend all season.

The calls on Duke are definitely fouls, if a bit ticky-tacky. When Duke is going to the rim or even just dribbling with the ball, there appears to be a boatload of similar contact with no whistle. I'd be pulling my hair out if I had any left.

azzefkram
02-19-2017, 08:24 AM
I was worried until Tatum made his free throws. At the under 4 it was 89-81, Duke. Then:
3:41 - Childress makes 3 (89-84)
3:20 - Matt misses front end
3:06 - Collins makes jumper and 1 (89-87)
2:44 - Amile layup (91-87)
2:29 - Childress layup and 1 (91-90)


I take the blame for this. My WatchESPN app brainfarted and by the time I was able to get back to the game I got to see Childress shoot his and 1. Totally my bad,

WillJ
02-19-2017, 08:38 AM
Another trivia note from an attendee. Jay Bilas's son 6'2" Anthony, who seems buried deep on the WF bench, can dunk with two hands. The athleticism of these kids is amazing.

weezie
02-19-2017, 09:22 AM
Just got back from visiting the two main Wake Forest message boards out there.

I was curious to see why they thought Duke won.

To my surprise, their almost unanimous take was that Duke got all the calls ... they were screwed by the refs.

Same with reactions to the hoo game. Pick a game, any game. Wear a Duke shirt on the street and folks will come right up and make the same statement. So, I just go with it and agree with them. Absolutely, K has gotten every call over the last 37 years. That's why we win the Olys too. Every single call. Nod my head and agree.

Sometimes, other people don't like it when you agree with them.

WVDUKEFAN
02-19-2017, 09:30 AM
Coach said GA's still having issues with his foot. What's changed since the UNC game where he was the "old Grayson "?

szstark
02-19-2017, 09:39 AM
Coach said GA's still having issues with his foot. What's changed since the UNC game where he was the "old Grayson "?

He has rolled his ankle twice since that statement.

jimsumner
02-19-2017, 10:07 AM
Let me note that at one point in the second half, Wake Forest had attempted 18 free throws, Duke had attempted four.

A value-neutral fact.

westwall
02-19-2017, 10:40 AM
Gonna vote that the ACC is really good and this helps Duke in March and April. Think about the 99 team and all the blowouts they had. Their one close game the last part of the year was against St. John's and they didn't have the reps in close games like UConn had.


This seems to me a good point. I recall (I think) hearing that near the end of the '91 game with Las Vegas, K told the Duke team "They have never been in a close game, and don't know how to handle it; we will win!" And Vegas did not handle that situation well.

KandG
02-19-2017, 11:36 AM
Several other calls that ticked me off. When Arians got the 4-point play it was like two possessions after Van Horn knocked down Grayson on almost exactly the same play -- with no call. And twice down the stretch, Duke scored driving layups vs. Collins when the Wake big man used his body to bump the driver -- the exact same thing that Duke was getting called for at the other end.

At one point, Wake had outshot Duke 17-4 from the foul line. I felt like I was watching a game being called under two rules -- when Wake had the ball, the new freedom of movement rules were in effect ... when Duke had the ball, it was the old no blood, no foul approach.


I personally don't like to focus too much on calls after a win or loss, even though I might definitely quibble with one or two terrible ones (like the Jayson charge referenced by several people). Even in atrociously officiated games like the Notre Dame game, at least you could say the officials saddled both teams with the same tight whistle in the second half, meaning both teams got in the bonus super early. Ultimately, the teams have to adapt, no matter how brutal it is for players (and the viewer) to deal with.

But I'd agree that the whistle was oddly inconsistent yesterday. I especially disliked the fouls being called on the slight arm bars/arm extensions being used by players like Kennard or Collins. You extend your arm like a weapon, yes it's an offensive foul. But the slight bumps that come as you're making a move being called offensive fouls were really cheap and inconsistently called. And as Olympic fan noted, it was hard to get a handle on what was "good" defense on drives and what was a bump.

devildeac
02-19-2017, 12:33 PM
Let me note that at one point in the second half, Wake Forest had attempted 18 free throws, Duke had attempted four.

A value-neutral fact.

And, Wake fans probably thought they should have shot 28 (or more) FT and we should have shot 0. Pure speculation, of course:rolleyes:. And then, they still likely would not have been satisfied. :rolleyes:

BandAlum83
02-19-2017, 12:53 PM
Same with reactions to the hoo game. Pick a game, any game. Wear a Duke shirt on the street and folks will come right up and make the same statement. So, I just go with it and agree with them. Absolutely, K has gotten every call over the last 37 years. That's why we win the Olys too. Every single call. Nod my head and agree.

Sometimes, other people don't like it when you agree with them.

I think they call it being passive aggressive, I'm not sure.

Otherwise, the thread I read on a wake board had tons of in-game posts. I guess they don't do a chat room like we do. There were lots of complaints about the refs there, but post game was mostly a different story.

They are frustrated at not going to the dance so many years. They think they have 2 really good players with no one to support them. They think Collins was the best player and Crawford the 3rd best, but you can't win with that when Duke has 8 of the other top 10 players.

They whined about their last shot at the hoop that crawfors had the ball instead of Collins. (actually some pointed out that Collins was covered and they couldn't get the ball to him.)

It generally seemed they recognize they just don't have the talent and aren't good enough.

But they would love to play in the NCAAT and make some waves away from a really tough conference.

And oh yeah, they definitely don't have a wankerizer. I wouldn't want my kids reading the board (when they were young). There are an awful lot of F bombs. Thanks, mods, for making this a family friendly place to hang out.

Rich
02-19-2017, 01:44 PM
And oh yeah, they definitely don't have a wankerizer.

I think we have our next idea for a t-shirt graphic: I've Been Wankerized By DBR...How 'Bout You?

BandAlum83
02-19-2017, 01:48 PM
I think we have our next idea for a t-shirt graphic: I've Been Wankerized By DBR...How 'Bout You?

Flip side....


And I've been sporked more times than I can count

-jk
02-19-2017, 04:16 PM
Fun!

I've forwarded your ideas to Julian...

-jk

lotusland
02-19-2017, 04:41 PM
Every team's fan base thinks refs and announcers are biased against them. Duke has a fan base.

84Duke
02-19-2017, 04:42 PM
I don't like the fact that I am 54 years old. But I do love the fact that Wake Forest has not been in a Final Four in my lifetime. And their fans always act like their team is somehow different and better than teams that actually win something. They have had a ton of great players, and win nothing. Tim Duncan, Rodney Rogers, Randolph Childress, Chris Paul. Zero Final Fours combined.

JohnJ
02-19-2017, 06:30 PM
Flip side...

And I have been sporked more times than I can count.


I dream of the day......

BandAlum83
02-19-2017, 06:36 PM
I dream of the day...

I almost gave you a pity spork, but saw you've posted only 62 times in 4 years? Come on in the water's fine!

Join the conversation and post away! The sporks will come. :)

So my spork wasn't one out of pity, rather out of encouragement!

Tripping William
02-19-2017, 06:47 PM
I don't like the fact that I am 54 years old. But I do love the fact that Wake Forest has not been in a Final Four in my lifetime. And their fans always act like their team is somehow different and better than teams that actually win something. They have had a ton of great players, and win nothing. Tim Duncan, Rodney Rogers, Randolph Childress, Chris Paul. Zero Final Fours combined.

I have been surrounded by Deacs for 20+ years. The inferiority complex is strong in these parts.

mgtr
02-19-2017, 06:53 PM
A good friend once said about me "He doesn't have an inferiority complex, he is just inferior." I didn't believe him, but the thought has always remained with me. Always raise this question with yourself.

JohnJ
02-19-2017, 07:32 PM
I almost gave you a pity spork, but saw you've posted only 62 times in 4 years? Come on in the water's fine!

Join the conversation and post away! The sporks will come. :)

So my spork wasn't one out of pity, rather out of encouragement!

Meant to be humorous....and it's even worse than you think - I have been reading since it was juliovision...

UrinalCake
02-19-2017, 08:46 PM
Lots of negative posts about our defense, most of which I totally agree with, but I did want to say on a positive note that our offense was really good and really balanced. If there's one "criticism" that could be said of our offense leading into this game it's that we'd become too dependent on one player having a monster performance - Luke in the first Wake game and Clemson, Tatum against UVA and the second half of UNC. In this game we had six players in double figures, and it felt like we did a great job of spreading the ball and taking the best shot. Guys trusted each other and didn't have to hold onto the ball or take bad shots in order to get their own shots, and we did look to work the ball inside more.

Also it shouldn't be overlooked how challenging it can be to go from playing UVA and their physical, grinding style where the ball is walked back and forth every possession... to now playing a complete opposite style where both teams almost scored 100. Early on it felt to me like we were expecting them to play slowly and they didn't and so we got caught off-guard.

Bay Area Duke Fan
02-20-2017, 02:11 AM
I don't like the fact that I am 54 years old. But I do love the fact that Wake Forest has not been in a Final Four in my lifetime. And their fans always act like their team is somehow different and better than teams that actually win something. They have had a ton of great players, and win nothing. Tim Duncan, Rodney Rogers, Randolph Childress, Chris Paul. Zero Final Fours combined.

You missed by one year. Wake played in 1962 Final Four, with team stars being Len Chappell and Billy Packer. Wake lost to Ohio State in semi-final, then beat UCLA in the consolation game.

Bob Green
02-20-2017, 04:10 AM
Every team's fan base thinks refs and announcers are biased against them. Duke has a fan base.

Absolutely! And anyone who reads DBR knows we complain about the refs and announcer all the time.

WVDUKEFAN
02-20-2017, 04:58 AM
It was a good win because it was a win. Wins build confidence. i though that when we built the lead to 12, we were going to blow the doors off. I know Wake shouldn't be taken lightly, but I expected a win and maybe expected too much by thinking it would be by a larger margin.

I also had it in my mind that Giles was going to be more of a factor in the offense at this point. We have 4 regular season games plus the ACC tournament before we hit the NCAAs. I'm eagerly and patiently waiting for a breakout game, but I'm not sure that is going to happen.

rsvman
02-20-2017, 08:56 AM
Does anybody besides me see the irony in the "wankerizer"? Does anybody besides me know what the word "wanker" means?

In my opinion, it is occasionally a more vulgar word than the one it replaces.

jimsumner
02-20-2017, 09:58 AM
Absolutely! And anyone who reads DBR knows we complain about the refs and announcer all the time.

Only when they're lying, cheating scumbags.

Ultrarunner
02-20-2017, 10:07 AM
You missed by one year. Wake played in 1962 Final Four, with team stars being Len Chappell and Billy Packer. Wake lost to Ohio State in semi-final, then beat UCLA in the consolation game.

I'm the same age, but born in December, so the original statement stands for me - and for anyone born after March 24th, 1962.

IrishDevil
02-20-2017, 10:11 AM
Does anybody besides me see the irony in the "wankerizer"? Does anybody besides me know what the word "wanker" means?

In my opinion, it is occasionally a more vulgar word than the one it replaces.

After having a bit of fun with the filter using the preview post function, I can confirm that DBR considers British English vulgarity simply bollocks.

jimsumner
02-20-2017, 10:19 AM
Does anybody besides me see the irony in the "wankerizer"? Does anybody besides me know what the word "wanker" means?

In my opinion, it is occasionally a more vulgar word than the one it replaces.

This seems like a classic Catch-22. The only way we can discuss the word "wanker" and its variants is to run the risk of invoking the Wanker Filter.

BandAlum83
02-20-2017, 10:36 AM
This seems like a classic Catch-22. The only way we can discuss the word "wanker" and its variants is to run the risk of invoking the Wanker Filter.

Would you rather be called a tosser?