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vick
02-13-2017, 11:16 AM
With less than three weeks to go in conference play, thought we might speculate a bit on how the ACC awards might turn out. So far I have it:

First team
Luke Kennard (POY) - the rare player whose efficiency skyrockets against the better teams on the schedule
Donovan Mitchell - along with Kennard, the two that I cannot see any reasonable person leaving off their list, highly effective on both ends of the floor
Bonzie Colson - the conference's leading rebounder seems to be showing the potential he has flashed against Duke for some time now on a more consistent basis
John Collins - carries a huge load (nearly 30% of Wake's possessions) and still highly efficient, the best big in the league
Justin Jackson - the best player on the league's best team (by record, if not by efficiency margin)

Second team
London Perrantes - evolved into a heck of a scorer (nearly 16 PPG even at Virginia's pace)
Dennis Smith Jr. - "all in one" stats like win shares aren't as high on him as he is dragged down by NCST's atrocious defense, but Smith carries an almost unprecedented workload--the only ACC player in recent history to have even close to his assist % while still consuming more than 28% of possessions is Greivis Vasquez
Jonathan Isaac - in the media vote, I suspect his teammate Bacon will be higher. In actual performance, Isaac has been perhaps the best "stat stuffer" in the league: #7 in ORTG, #2 in defensive rebounding %, #6 in block %, #10 in steal %, etc.
Jamel Artis - like Smith, a bad defense pulls down his team, but only Kennard and maybe Collins have better offensive numbers
Josh Okogie - maybe the most surprising player on the list, for the most surprising team. Not as efficient as the others, but with much less help around him than most

Third team
Isaiah Wilkins - I doubt he will be on the actual team, as "pacism" and offensive bias still rule the day, but Wilkins has been one of the three best defenders in the league and an efficient and reliable scorer, albeit as a role player. "Box plus minus" absolutely loves him
Davon Reed - Quietly carries a big load with high efficiency
Dwayne Bacon - He will be higher in the actual voting, but he has not been all that efficient to date. Still, a carries a huge load on one of the league's best teams
Jaron Blossomgame - numbers down from last year, but still requires a huge amount of attention from other teams
Andrew White - hardly ever sees the bench for a reason

All-defense
Ben Lammers (DPOY) - and man, I do not like that a potential DPOY may not even make all-ACC, but his defense has been spectacular
Isaiah Wilkins
Donovan Mitchell
Jonathan Isaac
Matt Jones

wgl1228
02-13-2017, 11:53 AM
Kennard should be a lock for ACC Player of the Year. I guess Colson if he has anymore games like the other night might get some votes. I could also see Grayson getting a 2nd or 3rd team if he continues his solid play.

CDu
02-13-2017, 12:10 PM
With less than three weeks to go in conference play, thought we might speculate a bit on how the ACC awards might turn out. So far I have it:

First team
Luke Kennard (POY) - the rare player whose efficiency skyrockets against the better teams on the schedule
Donovan Mitchell - along with Kennard, the two that I cannot see any reasonable person leaving off their list, highly effective on both ends of the floor
Bonzie Colson - the conference's leading rebounder seems to be showing the potential he has flashed against Duke for some time now on a more consistent basis
John Collins - carries a huge load (nearly 30% of Wake's possessions) and still highly efficient, the best big in the league
Justin Jackson - the best player on the league's best team (by record, if not by efficiency margin)

Second team
London Perrantes - evolved into a heck of a scorer (nearly 16 PPG even at Virginia's pace)
Dennis Smith Jr. - "all in one" stats like win shares aren't as high on him as he is dragged down by NCST's atrocious defense, but Smith carries an almost unprecedented workload--the only ACC player in recent history to have even close to his assist % while still consuming more than 28% of possessions is Greivis Vasquez
Jonathan Isaac - in the media vote, I suspect his teammate Bacon will be higher. In actual performance, Isaac has been perhaps the best "stat stuffer" in the league: #7 in ORTG, #2 in defensive rebounding %, #6 in block %, #10 in steal %, etc.
Jamel Artis - like Smith, a bad defense pulls down his team, but only Kennard and maybe Collins have better offensive numbers
Josh Okogie - maybe the most surprising player on the list, for the most surprising team. Not as efficient as the others, but with much less help around him than most

Third team
Isaiah Wilkins - I doubt he will be on the actual team, as "pacism" and offensive bias still rule the day, but Wilkins has been one of the three best defenders in the league and an efficient and reliable scorer, albeit as a role player. "Box plus minus" absolutely loves him
Davon Reed - Quietly carries a big load with high efficiency
Dwayne Bacon - He will be higher in the actual voting, but he has not been all that efficient to date. Still, a carries a huge load on one of the league's best teams
Jaron Blossomgame - numbers down from last year, but still requires a huge amount of attention from other teams
Andrew White - hardly ever sees the bench for a reason

All-defense
Ben Lammers (DPOY) - and man, I do not like that a potential DPOY may not even make all-ACC, but his defense has been spectacular
Isaiah Wilkins
Donovan Mitchell
Jonathan Isaac
Matt Jones

I would find a place for Michael Young and Ben Lammers. Lammers over Okogie on the second team, in my opinion. Also, if we are talking about the media picks, I am confident it will be Berry over Reed on the third team.

My picks?

1st Team:
Kennard
Colson ND)
Mitchell (Louisville)
Jackson (UNC-CH)
Collins (Wake)

2nd Team:
Smith (State)
Perrantes (UVa)
Lammers (Ga Tech)
White (Cuse)
Artis (Pitt)

3rd Team:
Young (Pitt)
Berry (UNC-CH)
Bacon (FSU)
Isaac (FSU)
Allen (Duke)

Honorable Mention:
Blossomgame (Clemson)
Farrell (Notre Dame)
Reed (Miami)
Wilkins (UVa)
Tatum

All-Defense:
Mitchell
Lammers
Jones (Duke)
Wilkins (UVa)
Isaac

All-Freshman:
Isaac
Tatum
Okogie
Jackson (Duke)
Bradley (UNC-CH)

vick
02-13-2017, 01:00 PM
Kennard should be a lock for ACC Player of the Year. I guess Colson if he has anymore games like the other night might get some votes. I could also see Grayson getting a 2nd or 3rd team if he continues his solid play.

I think you're wrong if you think the conference's second-leading scorer, for the team with the best record, and with Carolina on his jersey, wouldn't get significant votes for POY. Agree with you that Grayson can easily move into 3rd or 2nd team discussion with a good finish.

CDu, good picks. Good point on Lammers/Okogie. Lammers' efficiency kinda scares me, especially for someone who isn't his team's first offensive weapon, but I always like seeing a defense-first player on lists. In case it wasn't clear, my list was what I thought was right not what the media will vote. In reality, I think Bacon would be second team at worst (which would be a mistake), and Berry would get in over Reed (which would not be my choice but is reasonable).

jv001
02-13-2017, 01:18 PM
I would find a place for Michael Young and Ben Lammers. Lammers over Okogie on the second team, in my opinion. Also, if we are talking about the media picks, I am confident it will be Berry over Reed on the third team.

My picks?

1st Team:
Kennard
Colson ND)
Mitchell (Louisville)
Jackson (UNC-CH)
Collins (Wake)

2nd Team:
Smith (State)
Perrantes (UVa)
Lammers (Ga Tech)
White (Cuse)
Artis (Pitt)

3rd Team:
Young (Pitt)
Berry (UNC-CH)
Bacon (FSU)
Isaac (FSU)
Allen (Duke)

Honorable Mention:
Blossomgame (Clemson)
Farrell (Notre Dame)
Reed (Miami)
Wilkins (UVa)
Tatum

All-Defense:
Mitchell
Lammers
Jones (Duke)
Wilkins (UVa)
Isaac

All-Freshman:
Isaac
Tatum
Okogie
Jackson (Duke)
Bradley (UNC-CH)

No Dennis Smith? GoDuke!

weezie
02-13-2017, 01:33 PM
[/B]

No Dennis Smith? GoDuke!

No Tatum anywhere? Whoops, sorry, flew down the lists and saw the frosh team

CDu
02-13-2017, 01:40 PM
[/B]

No Dennis Smith? GoDuke!

Oh right. He was on my 2nd Team. But yes, he should be all-frosh (and freshman of the year) and not Jackson.

Olympic Fan
02-13-2017, 04:13 PM
One thing you guys need to take into consideration -- after 63 years of selecting the official All-ACC team, the Atlantic Coast Conference Sports Media Association will no longer do the honors.

The ACC will use a new method to pick its All-ACC teams this year. Every team will control four votes -- the head coach gets one, one of the radio network voices gets one, and the SID gets to designate two local writers for the other votes.

It seems that there were some officials who felt that ACSMA was too dominated by the North Carolina and Virginia media. In terms of numbers, that's true -- but nothing is stopping New York and Florida writers from joining. Also, the idea that geographical bias tilts the vote is ridiculous -- almost every significant voting controversy in the last 60 years has involved a Big Four star getting screwed in favor of the non-Tobacco Road star.

Just an example, the two National Players of the Year who were NOT ACC players of the year (Johnny Dawkins in 1986 and Jason Williams in 2002) were Duke guys who were both beaten out by Maryland guys (Len Bias off a sixth place team in '86 and Juan Dixon in 2002. The worst POY vote in history were the back-to-back votes in 1969 and 1970 when John Roche of South Carolina beat out UNC's Charlie Scott (Scott got significantly more All-America recognition in both years). I could also argue for 2001 when national player of the year Shane Battier was tied by UNC's Joe Forte for ACC POY, but that vote involved two Big Four players.

It's going to be interesting to see this year's selection. I can almost guarantee some howlers -- I just hope the votes are released so we can see where the bias comes in..

PS Vick, your suggestions aren't bad, except you've been drinking the Isaac's kool-aid. Nice player, but I very much doubt that he makes even third-team All-ACC and I'll be shocked if he makes all-defense. I agree with Cdu that Lammers will be ahead of Okogie, but Cdu, your all-freshman team is nuts. Okogie, Tatum, and Isaac ... okay, but Bradley and Frank Jackson over Dennis Smith and Ky Bowman? Even Bruce Brown is ahead of those two. Smith is almost certainly rookie of the year.

Player of the year is probably a three-player race ... Kennard, Colson and Jackson are all in position, depending on how it ends up.

And nobody mentioned it, but it's going to be hard to beat out Josh Pastner for coach of the year.

Wander
02-13-2017, 04:27 PM
Just an example, the two National Players of the Year who were NOT ACC players of the year (Johnny Dawkins in 1986 and Jason Williams in 2002) were Duke guys who were both beaten out by Maryland guys (Len Bias off a sixth place team in '86 and Juan Dixon in 2002. The worst POY vote in history were the back-to-back votes in 1969 and 1970 when John Roche of South Carolina beat out UNC's Charlie Scott (Scott got significantly more All-America recognition in both years). I could also argue for 2001 when national player of the year Shane Battier was tied by UNC's Joe Forte for ACC POY, but that vote involved two Big Four players.

Let's not forget a few years ago when a player from the last place Virginia Tech team won it. Although that probably came out at the expense of a Miami player (who did win the Coaches version).

rsvman
02-13-2017, 04:29 PM
I think Grayson slips onto the 2nd or 3rd team, provided his ankle and foot are OK and he can get back up to speed.

jv001
02-13-2017, 04:37 PM
College Basketball Polls are pretty useless when you consider Coach K has never won AP National Coach of the Year. Dean Smith never won that award either, but Roy Williams and wait on it, wait on it..Matt Doherty have won it. Matter of fact Roy " the cheat" Williams won at Kansas and at uncheat. GoDuke!

OldPhiKap
02-13-2017, 04:40 PM
College Basketball Polls are pretty useless when you consider Coach K has never won AP National Coach of the Year. Dean Smith never won that award either, but Roy Williams and wait on it, wait on it..Matt Doherty have won it. Matter of fact Roy the cheat Williams won at Kansas and at uncheat. GoDuke!

K was the Naismith Coach of the Year three times -- 1989, 1992 and 1999.

But I agree with your general point -- it is pretty subjective and silly. K only winning three (and no AP's) is crazy absurd.

He has only been ACC COY five times -- and not since 2000 despite THREE national championships after that year!

Olympic Fan
02-13-2017, 04:44 PM
Just one followup to my suggestion that there may be some crazy bias in the new voting method.

I think the coaches will be fair and unbiased. They've picked a coaches team in recent years and their votes have been fair and rational.

I worry about the radio guys. About 30 years ago, ACSMA had to strip the vote from the radio crews because the votes of some crews were so outrageously biased.

And while there are good, knowledgeable writers all around the league, I get to see the player of the week votes (with one local writer from each school's area) and there are several who only see one team and almost never vote for anybody except their home team. There are some good ones who will probably vote -- Mike Waters at Syracuse, Tom Noies at Notre Dame, some of the Virginia guys -- David Teel, Doug Dougherty, Mike Barber, Jerry Radcliffe ... but there are some really bad ones too, who are almost cheerleaders for the team they cover. With just 30 writers -- hand-selected by the SIDs -- voting, along with 15 radio guys and 15 head coaches, there is a lot of room for bias.

That's why I hope the votes are transparent.

PS ACSMA will continue to pick an All-ACC team -- it just won't be the official team any longer.

jv001
02-13-2017, 04:47 PM
K was the Naismith Coach of the Year three times -- 1989, 1992 and 1999.

But I agree with your general point -- it is pretty subjective and silly. K only winning three (and no AP's) is crazy absurd.

He has only been ACC COY five times -- and not since 2000 despite THREE national championships after that year!

Dean won only one Naismith Coach of the year award. Now that it's become known that the cheating began under his watch, I'm glad he didn't win more than one. I believe John Wooden won 5 AP Coach of the Year awards. I might be wrong on that number. GoDuke!

CDu
02-13-2017, 05:47 PM
One thing you guys need to take into consideration -- after 63 years of selecting the official All-ACC team, the Atlantic Coast Conference Sports Media Association will no longer do the honors.

The ACC will use a new method to pick its All-ACC teams this year. Every team will control four votes -- the head coach gets one, one of the radio network voices gets one, and the SID gets to designate two local writers for the other votes.

It seems that there were some officials who felt that ACSMA was too dominated by the North Carolina and Virginia media. In terms of numbers, that's true -- but nothing is stopping New York and Florida writers from joining. Also, the idea that geographical bias tilts the vote is ridiculous -- almost every significant voting controversy in the last 60 years has involved a Big Four star getting screwed in favor of the non-Tobacco Road star.

Just an example, the two National Players of the Year who were NOT ACC players of the year (Johnny Dawkins in 1986 and Jason Williams in 2002) were Duke guys who were both beaten out by Maryland guys (Len Bias off a sixth place team in '86 and Juan Dixon in 2002. The worst POY vote in history were the back-to-back votes in 1969 and 1970 when John Roche of South Carolina beat out UNC's Charlie Scott (Scott got significantly more All-America recognition in both years). I could also argue for 2001 when national player of the year Shane Battier was tied by UNC's Joe Forte for ACC POY, but that vote involved two Big Four players.

It's going to be interesting to see this year's selection. I can almost guarantee some howlers -- I just hope the votes are released so we can see where the bias comes in..

PS Vick, your suggestions aren't bad, except you've been drinking the Isaac's kool-aid. Nice player, but I very much doubt that he makes even third-team All-ACC and I'll be shocked if he makes all-defense. I agree with Cdu that Lammers will be ahead of Okogie, but Cdu, your all-freshman team is nuts. Okogie, Tatum, and Isaac ... okay, but Bradley and Frank Jackson over Dennis Smith and Ky Bowman? Even Bruce Brown is ahead of those two. Smith is almost certainly rookie of the year.

Player of the year is probably a three-player race ... Kennard, Colson and Jackson are all in position, depending on how it ends up.

And nobody mentioned it, but it's going to be hard to beat out Josh Pastner for coach of the year.

Yes, I already corrected that mistake. Smith (who I had on the second All-ACC team so obviously I liked better than any of the other frosh) in, Jackson out. But good point about Bowman. I forgot he was a frosh. So Bradley goes as well.

vick
02-13-2017, 06:58 PM
PS Vick, your suggestions aren't bad, except you've been drinking the Isaac's kool-aid. Nice player, but I very much doubt that he makes even third-team All-ACC and I'll be shocked if he makes all-defense. I agree with Cdu that Lammers will be ahead of Okogie, but Cdu, your all-freshman team is nuts. Okogie, Tatum, and Isaac ... okay, but Bradley and Frank Jackson over Dennis Smith and Ky Bowman? Even Bruce Brown is ahead of those two. Smith is almost certainly rookie of the year.

Your and CDu's point on Okogie/Lammers is well taken. However, I'm going to have to stick up for Isaac here. Here are a few points in his favor:

1) In win shares, he ranks tied for fourth (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&year_min=2017&year_max=2017&class_is_fr=Y&class_is_so=Y&class_is_jr=Y&class_is_sr=Y&force%3Aclass_is=1&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&conf_id=acc&games_type=C&order_by=ws)

2) As I mentioned, he has a very strong combo of the three main defensive stats (defensive rebounds, steals, blocks). I can go back as far as 1997, and not one player managed 25% defensive rebound %, 6% block rate, and 2% steal rate while playing 60% of his teams' minutes. As of right now, Isaac is comfortably ahead of those three marks

3) As a rough first approximation of player value, I use a formula* with ORTG, DRTG, usage, and minutes played. I was just seeing if I could improve on win shares, but it turns out to be a fairly good predictor of all-ACC teams (on average, 4.0 of the formula's top 5 make first-team all-ACC). Right now Isaac ranks #6. Since 1997, only 1 of 120 top-6 players by this metric failed to make at least third team all-ACC (Boozer '01). You know a heck of a lot more about voting than I do, but a player with Isaac's statistical profile not making all-ACC would be pretty unusual

4) Simpler player value metrics, like the Barry Jacobs formula (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?1865-Player-Effectiveness-Formula), tell the same thing. To be honest, I haven't seen a single metric that doesn't put him in the top-15, and it's not like it's empty numbers for a bad team

* For anyone who cares, the problem I have with win shares is that it undervalues shot creation, in particular players who are forced to carry big offensive loads. Since win shares is based on efficiency over a "replacement value," I just gave players different replacement values based on their usage. E.g., a high-usage player like Jayson Tatum just needs an ORTG of 96.2 to "break even," while a low-usage player like Matt Jones needs 112.0. This winds up producing results that better conform to voters' behavior than win shares, and frankly just make more sense.

jimsumner
02-14-2017, 06:01 PM
Just an example, the two National Players of the Year who were NOT ACC players of the year (Johnny Dawkins in 1986 and Jason Williams in 2002) were Duke guys who were both beaten out by Maryland guys (Len Bias off a sixth place team in '86 and Juan Dixon in 2002. The worst POY vote in history were the back-to-back votes in 1969 and 1970 when John Roche of South Carolina beat out UNC's Charlie Scott (Scott got significantly more All-America recognition in both years). I could also argue for 2001 when national player of the year Shane Battier was tied by UNC's Joe Forte for ACC POY, but that vote involved two Big Four players.

.

Although perhaps not part of the core NPOY awards, Basketball Times named Kenny Smith NPOY in 1987 and Sports Illustrated named Jerry Stackhouse NPOY in 1995. The ACC POY in those years were Horace Grant (Clemson) in 1987 and Joe Smith (Maryland) in 1995, further reinforcing your point.

kmspeaks
02-14-2017, 07:15 PM
Player of the year is probably a three-player race ... Kennard, Colson and Jackson are all in position, depending on how it ends up.


I enjoyed following the numbers over the last month or so of the season last year for Grayson Allen vs Malcolm Brogdon, let's see how these 3 stack up. The first 7 numbers are per 100 possessions and in conference play only. If one of you stat nerds thinks per 40 numbers would be better I could get those numbers too. PER = Player Efficiency Rating, TS% = True Shooting Percentage



Player
Points
Assists
Turnovers
Steals
Rebounds
O rtg
D rtg
PER
TS%


Luke Kennard
33
3.7
2.7
1.1
7.2
134.6
109.9
25.2
.678


Bonzie Colson
30.8
2.8
2.3
1.7
20.5
123.3
99.9
29.6
.586


Justin Jackson
33.8
3.4
3.1
0.6
8.1
120.4
112.4
21.3
.555

vick
02-27-2017, 10:50 AM
One week to go, and I think there's a pretty strong top-5 for first team: Donovan Mitchell, Justin Jackson, Luke Kennard, Bonzie Colson, and John Collins. Right now, I'd have to say Mitchell deserves POY. Compared to who I guess is his main competitor (Jackson), he's statistically a bit better on offense--more efficient (ORTG 123 vs. 119, but using a bit fewer possessions) but a much better defender. The case for Jackson depends on how much you weight a two-game lead. Luke is probably behind those two, but not out of the running if he finishes very strong. Sadly, Grayson seems out of the running for all-ACC honors at this point.

Other trends: Jayson Tatum's great play against Virginia and Wake should put in the all-ACC discussion. Likewise, Kennedy Meeks has definitely moved up the board. I'd move Michael Young and Tyler Lydon ahead of their teammates (Jamel Artis and Andrew White respectively), who have slumped some in the last couple of weeks. Dwayne Bacon has played poorly of late and if he gets any honors it will be on his reputation and not performance in my opinion.

First team
Donovan Mitchell (POY)
Justin Jackson
Luke Kennard
John Collins
Bonzie Colson

Second team
London Perrantes
Jonathan Isaac (I will continue to maintain this as long as (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&year_min=2017&year_max=2017&class_is_fr=Y&class_is_so=Y&class_is_jr=Y&class_is_sr=Y&force%3Aclass_is=1&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&conf_id=acc&games_type=C&order_by=ws) it is true (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&year_min=2017&year_max=2017&class_is_fr=Y&class_is_so=Y&class_is_jr=Y&class_is_sr=Y&force%3Aclass_is=1&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&conf_id=acc&games_type=C&c1stat=mp_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=25&order_by=per)!)
Davon Reed
Kennedy Meeks (I would bet heavily on Berry finishing ahead of him in the actual vote, though. Chunky-looking big men rarely in my experience get the breaks vs. players who "look" more like better players)
Dennis Smith Jr.

Third team
Ben Lammers
Jayson Tatum
Joel Berry
Michael Young
Tyler Lydon

All-defense
Ben Lammers (DPOY)
Donovan Mitchell
Isaiah Wilkins
Jonathan Isaac
Matt Jones

All-freshman
Jonathan Isaac (Freshman of the year, though I know perfectly well Smith will likely win. But the fact remains Smith is a below average offensive efficiency player)
Dennis Smith Jr.
Jayson Tatum
Josh Okogie
Bruce Brown

Olympic Fan
02-27-2017, 03:34 PM
I talked to several ACC coaches today and asked them about defensive standouts.

If the coaches prevail, Ben Lammers of Georgia Tech is not only going to be DPOY, he's going to be unanimous. He was the first player mentioned by the six coaches I was able to ask.

After him, I got a wide variety of choices, but the No. 2 guy was a surprise -- FSU's Xavier Rathan-Mayes. Two coaches said he was the best on-the-ball defender in the league.

One coach touted Donovan Mitchell, but Pitino said that while he had great anticipation, which made him good on steals, and was a strong defensive rebounder (a big defensive plus for a guard), he said Mitchell was not that good defensively overall. In fact, he said with the current freedom of movement rules in effect, the days of the great one-on-one perimeter defender are gone.

Interesting that only one coach mentioned Virginia's defense and that was Pitino, who said it was a great team defense without any particularly outstanding defenders.

I think that Luke Kennard's chances of POY have faded with Duke's two-game slide. Actually, I think if the vote were today, UNC's Justin Jackson would win. We'll see after this weekend.

Again, the outcome is hard to predict this year because of the new voting system (four votes per school). I can tell you that at several schools, the two designated writers will be guys who haven't seen any ACC game other than their home team this season ... and that's true for most of the radio guys (that's three-fourths of the vote). And the individual vote will NOT be released, so we're going to see a LOT of hometown cooking.

Wander
02-27-2017, 04:11 PM
This is a pretty weak year for ACC POY considering the overall strength of the conference. I don't think there's anyone in the ACC who's going to be in strong contention for 1st team All-American overall.

English
02-27-2017, 04:25 PM
This is a pretty weak year for ACC POY considering the overall strength of the conference. I don't think there's anyone in the ACC who's going to be in strong contention for 1st team All-American overall.

Based on a reasonably extensive sampling of ACC and national hoops analysts, Justin Jackson is becoming more and more popular as the pick for ACC POY. This could be largely irrelevant with the new voting system, but the noise surrounding this outcome is rising. Suboptimal, to be sure, but it's there.

Tappan Zee Devil
02-27-2017, 07:55 PM
Based on a reasonably extensive sampling of ACC and national hoops analysts, Justin Jackson is becoming more and more popular as the pick for ACC POY. This could be largely irrelevant with the new voting system, but the noise surrounding this outcome is rising. Suboptimal, to be sure, but it's there.

Jackson just scored 7 points 0n 3 for 10 shooting (1 for 6 from 3) in the Virginia game with unc-chEAT losing by 10 - Does that affect this at all?

vick
02-27-2017, 08:01 PM
Jackson just scored 7 points 0n 3 for 10 shooting (1 for 6 from 3) in the Virginia game with unc-chEAT losing by 10 - Does that affect this at all?

It should, although I don't know how much it will. The bigger factor, IMO, is that UNC lost. If we beat them Saturday, and UL wins out, then Mitchell will very likely have better numbers for a team with an identical record to Jackson's. As Olympic Fan noted, who knows what happens with the new voting though.

CDu
02-27-2017, 08:12 PM
It should, although I don't know how much it will. The bigger factor, IMO, is that UNC lost. If we beat them Saturday, and UL wins out, then Mitchell will very likely have better numbers for a team with an identical record to Jackson's. As Olympic Fan noted, who knows what happens with the new voting though.

And if we beat them and ND wins out, Colson has a strong case as well.

Basically, if we beat UNC then either Mitchell or Colson (whoever is victorious next weekend) stands a good chance.

But if UNC wins Saturday, Jackson will win it.

91devil
02-27-2017, 08:33 PM
Joel Berry is a terrific player and, IMO, the most important guy on the UNC basketball team. Now, that certainly doesn't translate to All-ACC honors, but I'd be very surprised if he isn't at least Second Team. We beat UNC a few weeks ago in large part because Berry had a very poor game.

vick
02-27-2017, 08:54 PM
And if we beat them and ND wins out, Colson has a strong case as well.

Basically, if we beat UNC then either Mitchell or Colson (whoever is victorious next weekend) stands a good chance.

But if UNC wins Saturday, Jackson will win it.

Yeah, sounds plausible to me. I'm not personally a huge fan of best-player-on-best-team arguments (e.g., I had no problem with Erick Green in '13), but the distance between Mitchell, Colson, and Jackson (or Kennard) isn't huge here.

CDu
02-27-2017, 09:28 PM
Yeah, sounds plausible to me. I'm not personally a huge fan of best-player-on-best-team arguments (e.g., I had no problem with Erick Green in '13), but the distance between Mitchell, Colson, and Jackson (or Kennard) isn't huge here.

Just to be clear, I don't think any of the three SHOULD win it. Especially not Jackson or Mitchell. I think Collins should win it. I just don't think he will.

Doria
03-01-2017, 10:08 AM
This isn't an ACC award, but I saw that Luke was named one of ten semifinalists for the Naismith today, along with his contention for the Wooden and Jerry West awards. Link here. (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=211509989)

Gooch
03-01-2017, 11:42 AM
Interesting "blind" stat view shown on the telecast last night. Luke's "counting" stats stand up to Jackson for certain and Collins' profile looked strong. Interesting to see how the voting goes this year...

CDu
03-01-2017, 11:45 AM
Interesting "blind" stat view shown on the telecast last night. Luke's "counting" stats stand up to Jackson for certain and Collins' profile looked strong. Interesting to see how the voting goes this year...

Yeah Jackson would not really be in the conversation if UNC had Duke's record. At least no more so than Kennard is.

Olympic Fan
03-01-2017, 11:46 AM
Interesting "blind" stat view shown on the telecast last night. Luke's "counting" stats stand up to Jackson for certain and Collins' profile looked strong. Interesting to see how the voting goes this year...

Just be aware that there will be TWO All-ACC teams this year -- ACSMA, which has picked the official team for 67 years, is picking it again. However, it won't be the official team -- the one recognized by the ACC. That one will be picked by a committee made up of four voters from each of the 15 teams (a coach, a radio guy and two designated writers).

You can bet no matter which team the ACC designates as official, the schools will publicize the one that makes their guys look best.

English
03-01-2017, 11:49 AM
This isn't an ACC award, but I saw that Luke was named one of ten semifinalists for the Naismith today, along with his contention for the Wooden and Jerry West awards. Link here. (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=211509989)

As a further note, indeed Luke Kennard has been included in the 10 semifinalists for the POY award, along with Justin Jackson of the vocational school eight miles away. No sign of Bonzi Colson. Again, not really relevant to ACC awards speculation, but just sayin'...

Kansas is the only team with multiple semifinalists--Frank Mason III & Josh Jackson.

English
03-01-2017, 11:52 AM
Interesting "blind" stat view shown on the telecast last night. Luke's "counting" stats stand up to Jackson for certain and Collins' profile looked strong. Interesting to see how the voting goes this year...

Our own JayWill went on record (again) that he'd select Justin Jackson as the ACC POY on the telecast, in response to those blind stats. Seth Greenberg, of the perennial NIT berth, chose his hypothetical ACC POY as the one and only Luke Kennard.

All meaningless in this year's actual voting, but as interesting as anything those two have said in awhile.

dukelifer
03-01-2017, 12:33 PM
I enjoyed following the numbers over the last month or so of the season last year for Grayson Allen vs Malcolm Brogdon, let's see how these 3 stack up. The first 7 numbers are per 100 possessions and in conference play only. If one of you stat nerds thinks per 40 numbers would be better I could get those numbers too. PER = Player Efficiency Rating, TS% = True Shooting Percentage



Player
Points
Assists
Turnovers
Steals
Rebounds
O rtg
D rtg
PER
TS%


Luke Kennard
33
3.7
2.7
1.1
7.2
134.6
109.9
25.2
.678


Bonzie Colson
30.8
2.8
2.3
1.7
20.5
123.3
99.9
29.6
.586


Justin Jackson
33.8
3.4
3.1
0.6
8.1
120.4
112.4
21.3
.555



jackson wins this- with Luke coming in second

Olympic Fan
03-02-2017, 12:13 PM
One interesting tidbit -- the ACC scoring title is up for grabs.

As of today (March 2), Pitt's Michael Young, who has led all season, is still in first with 20.1 points a game. But Duke's Luke Kennard is a close second with 19.8 ppg.

They've both played 30 games and Young has outscored Kennard by eight points (603 to 595).

But there's much more to it than that. Young built a huge lead in the pre-conference season and has seen it dwindle during ACC play. He's averaged just 18.1 ppg in ACC play ... Kennard is at 19.4

The race continues into postseason -- Pitt has a game Saturday against Virginia, then they have a game or two in the ACC Tournament. They are not likely to play in postseason. So Young has 2-3 games left. Kennard, of course, has the UNC game and likely far more postseason games (at least two, one in the ACC and one in the NCAA Tournaments -- probably more).

Can he make up the eight point difference?

BTW: Wake's John Collins is third at 19.3 ppg.

One other oddity. So far, Jayson Tatum has not showed up in the ACC overall stats. The league has a rule that players must play in three-fourths of a team's games. Jayson had played in 22 of Duke's 30 games -- not quite enough. He'll show up in the stats after the first ACC Tournament game (that will be 24 or 32 for him). If listed today, he would be No. 12 in ACC scoring -- just behind FSU's Dwayne Bacon ... just ahead of Louisville's Donovan Mitchell (how much did his stinker of a performance last night hurt his first-team chances?)

Dukehky
03-02-2017, 01:33 PM
If Justin Jackson wins this thing... He's gotten so much better, but he would be the 3rd best player on Duke's team, 4th depending on a healthy Grayson Allen

vick
03-02-2017, 02:16 PM
One interesting tidbit -- the ACC scoring title is up for grabs.

As of today (March 2), Pitt's Michael Young, who has led all season, is still in first with 20.1 points a game. But Duke's Luke Kennard is a close second with 19.8 ppg.

They've both played 30 games and Young has outscored Kennard by eight points (603 to 595).

But there's much more to it than that. Young built a huge lead in the pre-conference season and has seen it dwindle during ACC play. He's averaged just 18.1 ppg in ACC play ... Kennard is at 19.4

The race continues into postseason -- Pitt has a game Saturday against Virginia, then they have a game or two in the ACC Tournament. They are not likely to play in postseason. So Young has 2-3 games left. Kennard, of course, has the UNC game and likely far more postseason games (at least two, one in the ACC and one in the NCAA Tournaments -- probably more).

Can he make up the eight point difference?

BTW: Wake's John Collins is third at 19.3 ppg.

One other oddity. So far, Jayson Tatum has not showed up in the ACC overall stats. The league has a rule that players must play in three-fourths of a team's games. Jayson had played in 22 of Duke's 30 games -- not quite enough. He'll show up in the stats after the first ACC Tournament game (that will be 24 or 32 for him). If listed today, he would be No. 12 in ACC scoring -- just behind FSU's Dwayne Bacon ... just ahead of Louisville's Donovan Mitchell (how much did his stinker of a performance last night hurt his first-team chances?)

I think it would have hurt Mitchell more if there were more viable contenders. The question is, who replaces him? Dennis Smith, an often-indifferent defender on a 14-loss team who leads the league in turnovers? Maybe Perrantes would have done it if his shot hadn't totally vanished during UVa's four-game losing streak. One of Pitt's duo? Given the strength of the league, the list of top players is surprisingly soft.

DukeTrinity11
03-02-2017, 02:43 PM
Luke's got this in the bag if he does well at the Dean Dome on Saturday.

English
03-02-2017, 02:54 PM
Luke's got this in the bag if he does well at the Dean Dome on Saturday.

Based on the trend of analysts giving their opinions lately, I'd actually say Luke is in a distant third for ACC POY. He'd need some massive performance on Saturday to make up ground. Not impossible, but it's looking like it's Justin Jackson's award to lose to-date.

And as much as it pains me to say, it seems Roy is a top-two candidate for COY with GaTech's Josh Pastner. Here's hoping JP takes it home with his incredible over-achievement this season.

Of course, this all marginalizes the impact that the new voting system will have on the official ACC awards, so take it FWIW.

flyingdutchdevil
03-02-2017, 02:56 PM
Based on the trend of analysts giving their opinions lately, I'd actually say Luke is in a distant third for ACC POY. He'd need some massive performance on Saturday to make up ground. Not impossible, but it's looking like it's Justin Jackson's award to lose to-date.

And as much as it pains me to say, it seems Roy is a top-two candidate for COY with GaTech's Josh Pastner. Here's hoping JP takes it home with his incredible over-achievement this season.

Of course, this all marginalizes the impact that the new voting system will have on the official ACC awards, so take it FWIW.

I agree that Luke is a distant third, but I think Collins is in the driver's seat. He's been the most dominant player in the ACC and is reason 1, 2, and 3 that Wake Forest may get into the tournament. I obviously want Luke to get it, but Collins deserves it.

SirIronDuke
03-02-2017, 04:45 PM
I think it's down to Collins and Colson.

royalblue
03-02-2017, 08:38 PM
Luke still has a Shot (pun intended)

kmspeaks
03-05-2017, 07:03 AM
per 100 possessions, in conference play



Player
Points
Assists
Turnovers
Steals
Rebounds
O Rtg
D Rtg
PER
TS%


Luke Kennard
30.2
3.7
2.6
1.0
7.9
129.1
111.8
24.6
.635


Justin Jackson
33.1
4.1
3.2
0.8
8.0
118.6
109.1
20.8
.542


Bonzie Colson
31.4
2.6
2.2
1.7
18.9
125.4
100.5
29.5
.567


John Collins
41.6
1.1
4.0
1.1
19.2
130.6
108.9
37.1
.672



and Jackson is supposedly the favorite to win it??:confused:

UNCfan
03-05-2017, 07:16 AM
per 100 possessions, in conference play



Player
Points
Assists
Turnovers
Steals
Rebounds
O Rtg
D Rtg
PER
TS%


Luke Kennard
30.2
3.7
2.6
1.0
7.9
129.1
111.8
24.6
.635


Justin Jackson
33.1
4.1
3.2
0.8
8.0
118.6
109.1
20.8
.542


Bonzie Colson
31.4
2.6
2.2
1.7
18.9
125.4
100.5
29.5
.567


John Collins
41.6
1.1
4.0
1.1
19.2
130.6
108.9
37.1
.672



and Jackson is supposedly the favorite to win it??:confused:

We do not know how this new system will vote this year, but usually the best player on the best team has a really good shot at winning it.

vick
03-05-2017, 08:17 AM
We do not know how this new system will vote this year, but usually the best player on the best team has a really good shot at winning it.

Sure. But the inconsistency is maddening. Consider these two players:



Player
Points
Assists
Turnovers
Steals
Rebounds
ORTG
DRTG
PER
TS%


Justin Jackson
33.1
4.1
3.2
0.8
8.0
118.6
109.1
20.8
54.2


Mystery player
29.9
6.5
1.9
2.6
11.7
129.1
90.5
25.8
57.3



It's almost impossible to argue that Jackson is better than the mystery player, who scores slightly less (though significantly more efficiently) but does everything else better. Mystery player was on an even better team than Jackson, which also won the conference by two games, but with two fewer losses and a much better efficiency margin. Yet this player--Malcolm Brogdon in 2014--not only got zero votes for POY, he didn't even get first team all-ACC. Why the difference? The reality, it seems to me, is that best player/best team works if you have the hype machine cranked up by January and play at a pace to give you good count stats. I'm not saying Jackson winning would be a travesty, but we should try to be consistent here.

Moving on, my final picks (who I think should get it):

First team
John Collins (POY)
Donovan Mitchell
Bonzie Colson
Luke Kennard
Justin Jackson

Second team
London Perrantes
Davon Reed
Joel Berry
Jonathan Isaac
Ben Lammers

Third team
Jayson Tatum
Dennis Smith Jr.
Kennedy Meeks
Tyler Lydon
Michael Young

All-defense
Ben Lammers (DPOY)
Isaiah Wilkins
Donovan Mitchell
Jonathan Isaac
Matt Jones

All-freshman
Jonathan Isaac (Freshman of the year)
Dennis Smith Jr.
Jayson Tatum
Josh Okogie
Bruce Brown

In the actual voting, I guess Jackson will win POY but the first team will be the same. I also predict Smith will be on second team ahead of Isaac (and also win freshman of the year).

Indoor66
03-05-2017, 08:22 AM
Sure. But the inconsistency is maddening. Consider these two players:



Player
Points
Assists
Turnovers
Steals
Rebounds
ORTG
DRTG
PER
TS%


Justin Jackson
33.1
4.1
3.2
0.8
8.0
118.6
109.1
20.8
54.2


Mystery player
29.9
6.5
1.9
2.6
11.7
129.1
90.5
25.8
57.3



It's almost impossible to argue that Jackson is better than the mystery player, who scores slightly less (though significantly more efficiently) but does everything else better. Mystery player was on an even better team than Jackson, which also won the conference by two games, but with two fewer losses and a much better efficiency margin. Yet this player--Malcolm Brogdon in 2014--not only got zero votes for POY, he didn't even get first team all-ACC. Why the difference? The reality, it seems to me, is that best player/best team works if you have the hype machine cranked up by January and play at a pace to give you good count stats. I'm not saying Jackson winning would be a travesty, but we should try to be consistent here.

Moving on, my final picks (who I think should get it):

First team
John Collins (POY)
Donovan Mitchell
Bonzie Colson
Luke Kennard
Justin Jackson

Second team
London Perrantes
Davon Reed
Joel Berry
Jonathan Isaac
Ben Lammers

Third team
Jayson Tatum
Dennis Smith Jr.
Kennedy Meeks
Tyler Lydon
Michael Young

All-defense
Ben Lammers (DPOY)
Isaiah Wilkins
Donovan Mitchell
Jonathan Isaac
Matt Jones

All-freshman
Jonathan Isaac (Freshman of the year)
Dennis Smith Jr.
Jayson Tatum
Josh Okogie
Bruce Brown

In the actual voting, I guess Jackson will win POY but the first team will be the same. I also predict Smith will be on second team ahead of Isaac (and also win freshman of the year).

Who, besides unCheat, has a journalism school?

kmspeaks
03-05-2017, 08:42 AM
We do not know how this new system will vote this year, but usually the best player on the *best team has a really good shot at winning it.

*top tier team with the most favorable schedule since that's who usually wins a giant league with an unbalanced schedule

I know many people use them interchangeably, but for me there is a difference between a Player of the Year and a Most Valuable Player. Team success should have very little, if any, weight in a POY discussion. I'm having a hard time looking at the numbers and figuring out how you could reasonably argue Justin Jackson was the best player in the ACC this year.

vick
03-05-2017, 10:07 AM
Who, besides unCheat, has a journalism school?

To be fair, I don't actually think the voters have historically been (very much) biased toward UNC, for the reasons stated by Olympic Fan and Jim Sumner earlier in the thread. I do think they have a bias toward "locking in" to a narrative early in the season and refusing to update it enough as the season progresses. Hence why Dwayne Bacon will get some second-team support despite performance not even close to justifying it.

Also, on the "how voters will vote" thread, I suspect Andrew White will poll on the third team, maybe bumping Lydon off. This is a reasonable opinion, though IMO White's count stats (and to a lesser extent Lydon's) are inflated by Boeheim's rotation. He's an odd case, a player with a somewhat-above-average per-minute statistical profile (e.g., .126 win shares/40 minutes, where .100 is average) who plays basically every minute--I would guess he set an ACC conference-game record for minutes played. I expect he'll have one of the bigger "spreads" in how different voters evaluate him.

In other opinions, kenpom's all-ACC team, which takes into account the whole season, has, in order, Collins, Colson, Mitchell, Kennard, and Meeks. I'm pretty sure he had Jackson in the fifth spot before last night's game.

Some others:

Andrew Carter (https://twitter.com/_andrewcarter/status/838418291395817472): Jackson, Kennard, Collins, Colson, Mitchell
Luke DeCock (https://twitter.com/LukeDeCock/status/838257168520478720): Collins, Colson, Jackson, Kennard, Mitchell
David Glenn (https://twitter.com/DavidGlennShow/status/838237499269001220): Jackson, Kennard, Colson, Mitchell, Collins (anyone seeing a pattern?)

Wander
03-05-2017, 10:11 AM
Yet this player--Malcolm Brogdon in 2014--not only got zero votes for POY, he didn't even get first team all-ACC. Why the difference?

Part of the difference is that comparing across years is problematic. Individual play in the ACC is not great at the top this year (despite the conference being great overall).

vick
03-05-2017, 10:23 AM
Part of the difference is that comparing across years is problematic. Individual play in the ACC is not great at the top this year (despite the conference being great overall).

Agreed--and I think the voters got it correct on 2014's POY--but the difference is still striking (actually, Collins compares quite well to Warren's 2014 season--a little bit better on a per-minute basis, but only playing 27 MPG vs. Warren's 35).

Olympic Fan
03-05-2017, 01:08 PM
First, I have no idea how the new All-ACC voting will turn out.

But ACSMA, which has picked the team for 67 years, will pick an All-ACC team this year (it won't be the official team for the first time).

I would be willing to bet big money that Justin Jackson will win ACC POY. But should he?

Jackson and Kennard play almost the same position -- a wing guard/forward.

Kennard scores more points (20.1 -- first in the ACC -- to 18.3), shoots a significantly better percentage from the floor (50.4 percent to 45.0 percent), almost 100 points higher from the foul line (84.7 to 75.5) and significantly better from the 3-point line (45.0 -- first in the ACC -- to 38.5). The 6-6 Kennard has more rebounds (5.3 as game) than the 6-8 Jackson (4.7 a game). In fact, Kennard barely trails UNC Isaiah Hicks (5.4) as a rebounder). Kennard has more steals and more blocked shots than Jackson.

Jackson has a very slight edge in assists (2.6 to 2.5), but also has two more turnovers on the season.

Pomeroy rates Kennard at 129.9 to Jackson's 122.2. Yes, Kennard plays 35.1 minutes a game to just 31.5 for Jackson -- but the ability to play more minutes is a plus too.

What makes Jackson the player of the year? Note -- its not MVP, so to me that removes the fact that the Cheats won the regular season title (thanks to the unbalanced schedule).

Dukehky
03-05-2017, 01:41 PM
First, I have no idea how the new All-ACC voting will turn out.

But ACSMA, which has picked the team for 67 years, will pick an All-ACC team this year (it won't be the official team for the first time).

I would be willing to bet big money that Justin Jackson will win ACC POY. But should he?

Jackson and Kennard play almost the same position -- a wing guard/forward.

Kennard scores more points (20.1 -- first in the ACC -- to 18.3), shoots a significantly better percentage from the floor (50.4 percent to 45.0 percent), almost 100 points higher from the foul line (84.7 to 75.5) and significantly better from the 3-point line (45.0 -- first in the ACC -- to 38.5). The 6-6 Kennard has more rebounds (5.3 as game) than the 6-8 Jackson (4.7 a game). In fact, Kennard barely trails UNC Isaiah Hicks (5.4) as a rebounder). Kennard has more steals and more blocked shots than Jackson.

Jackson has a very slight edge in assists (2.6 to 2.5), but also has two more turnovers on the season.

Pomeroy rates Kennard at 129.9 to Jackson's 122.2. Yes, Kennard plays 35.1 minutes a game to just 31.5 for Jackson -- but the ability to play more minutes is a plus too.

What makes Jackson the player of the year? Note -- its not MVP, so to me that removes the fact that the Cheats won the regular season title (thanks to the unbalanced schedule).



There is 0 statistical reason why Justin Jackson should win this award over Luke Kennard. If you wanna give it to Collins or Bonzie ,whatever, but Jackson is not this type of player. Plus he's soft, I don't want none of that.

Whatever the outcome of this vote though, it won't be nearly as bad as Erik Greene over Mason Plumlee, so whatever. This just isn't a Duke year, so we may as well get over it and accept that Kennard isn't winning this.

NashvilleDevil
03-05-2017, 03:07 PM
Jackson POY, Dennis Smith ROY. Luke only unanimous 1st team ACC selection. If Kevin Knox wants to be ACC POY he should go to UNC and play for 3 years.

Dukehky
03-05-2017, 03:13 PM
This was a freaking travesty of a vote for Duke.

BigZ
03-05-2017, 03:18 PM
Wow the UNC boards were saying Luke should win after last nights gaame

BigZ
03-05-2017, 03:21 PM
What a joke

UNCfan
03-05-2017, 03:26 PM
Jackson POY, Dennis Smith ROY. Luke only unanimous 1st team ACC selection. If Kevin Knox wants to be ACC POY he should go to UNC and play for 3 years.

Not sure why people keep bringing up the fact that Jackson stayed 3 years as if it is a negative? Allen stayed three years and his sophomore year was much better than Jackson's second year. If Kennard comes back next year, it's because he loves school and wants to accomplish something with his team. Jackson had a great year and his team won the regular season. Balanced schedule or not, UNC played the schedule they were given. Put an asterisk by it if you want, it will not change the result.

dukelifer
03-05-2017, 03:26 PM
Jackson POY, Dennis Smith ROY. Luke only unanimous 1st team ACC selection. If Kevin Knox wants to be ACC POY he should go to UNC and play for 3 years.

Unanimous choice but only 5 POY votes- odd. Must say though that I want Luke to come back and get it next year-averaging 30!

NashvilleDevil
03-05-2017, 03:28 PM
Not sure why people keep bringing up the fact that Jackson stayed 3 years as if it is a negative? Allen stayed three years and his sophomore year was much better than Jackson's second year. If Kennard comes back next year, it's because he loves school and wants to accomplish something with his team. Jackson had a great year and his team won the regular season. Balanced schedule or not, UNC played the schedule they were given. Put an asterisk by it if you want, it will not change the result.

It's more a knock on Roy and the potential OADs he's recruited who have not been OADs.

Dukehky
03-05-2017, 03:30 PM
It's more a knock on Roy and the potential OADs he's recruited who have not been OADs.

That's the only knock. JJ was too soft his first two years to go and he couldn't shoot. He was smart to come back, but he was held back developmentally by that system.

dukelifer
03-05-2017, 03:30 PM
Not sure why people keep bringing up the fact that Jackson stayed 3 years as if it is a negative? Allen stayed three years and his sophomore year was much better than Jackson's second year. If Kennard comes back next year, it's because he loves school and wants to accomplish something with his team. Jackson had a great year and his team won the regular season. Balanced schedule or not, UNC played the schedule they were given. Put an asterisk by it if you want, it will not change the result.

Jackson was deserving - best player on best team. Just hoping his shooting slump continues ;)

NashvilleDevil
03-05-2017, 03:33 PM
Not sure why people keep bringing up the fact that Jackson stayed 3 years as if it is a negative? Allen stayed three years and his sophomore year was much better than Jackson's second year. If Kennard comes back next year, it's because he loves school and wants to accomplish something with his team. Jackson had a great year and his team won the regular season. Balanced schedule or not, UNC played the schedule they were given. Put an asterisk by it if you want, it will not change the result.

I also never watched a Carolina game and thought of Jackson as the best player in the ACC. Kennard, Collins, Colson, Smith when I watched them I saw best player in the ACC. Congrats to Justin but I think there were several players that should have been POY over him.

BigZ
03-05-2017, 03:35 PM
Well Jackson was ranked higher than Winslow and I'm sure Winslow would be a lot better than Jackson if he was in college. Jackson is a classic underachiever who got better by just time

Troublemaker
03-05-2017, 04:36 PM
Awards announced (http://www.theacc.com/news/acc-announces-all-conference-team-postseason-awards-03-05-2017)

Luke - 1st Team ACC. (Also 4th in ACC POY voting)
Jayson - 3rd Team ACC. (Also All-Freshman Team)

Matt - All Defensive Team. (Also 4th in ACC DPOY voting)


Luke got 1 vote for Most Improved
Frank got 3 votes for 6th-man

Troublemaker
03-05-2017, 04:50 PM
http://i.imgur.com/gTUkwvC.png


http://i.imgur.com/bDKy3q4.png

jwillfan
03-05-2017, 05:08 PM
From the link http://www.theacc.com/news/acc-announces-all-conference-team-postseason-awards-03-05-2017

"Duke’s Kennard is the only unanimous selection to this year’s All-ACC first team and leads the conference in scoring at 20.1 points per game. The Franklin, Ohio, sophomore ranks second among ACC players in 3-point field goal percentage (.450), sixth in overall field goals percentage (.504) and fourth in free-throw percentage (.847). He has scored in double figures in 30 of Duke’s 31 game, eclipsing the 20-point mark a team-high 16 times and registering three games of 30-or-more points."

That's a pretty dadgum good season. And interesting that the voting for 1st team was separate from POY? Is that new? I thought top vote getter for 1st team was POY.

Geez I hope he comes back.

jwillfan
03-05-2017, 05:10 PM
Ok wow - Pastner won coach of the year running away. Wasn't even close - he had 24 votes and the next had 8 (Roy). Stuff it, Roy!

Tripping William
03-05-2017, 05:11 PM
I see Justin Jackson has won the Joseph Forte Award. Congrats to him ....

rsvman
03-05-2017, 05:29 PM
Wow. Predictable but stupid.

If you had come from Mars and had never seen a single game this year, and somebody told you that a front-runner for player of the year was on each of last night's teams, which guys would you have guessed they were? Yep. Berry and Kennard.

Now, if you had watched the entire season and thought that Jackson and Kennard were about tied, or even if you thought Jackson was slightly ahead, and then you watched that game, which player would you say deserved it after the game was over?

rsvman
03-05-2017, 05:30 PM
Ok wow - Pastner won coach of the year running away. Wasn't even close - he had 24 votes and the next had 8 (Roy). Stuff it, Roy!

They crowned Pastner about a month and a half ago, at least. There was no way that train was going to be stopped.

royalblue
03-05-2017, 05:33 PM
I also never watched a Carolina game and thought of Jackson as the best player in the ACC. Kennard, Collins, Colson, Smith when I watched them I saw best player in the ACC. Congrats to Justin but I think there were several players that should have been POY over him.

Was Justin even the best Jackson on the court
Last night?

Luke top in points for all ACC first team but only 5 of 53 votes for POY. Collins would have been a fine choice also.

To the victor goes the spoils
Justin Jackson's last 2 games
9-27 from the field
2-13 from 3point line
Must have been the strong finish that gave him the edge

rsvman
03-05-2017, 05:47 PM
Was Justin even the best Jackson on the court
Last night?

Luke top in points for all ACC first team but only 5 of 53 votes for POY. Collins would have been a fine choice also.

To the victor goes the spoils
Justin Jackson's last 2 games
9-27 from the field
2-13 from 3point line
Must have been the strong finish that gave him the edge

LOL. Last night he was definitely bested by our own Jackson.

jipops
03-05-2017, 06:00 PM
There is a difference between best player on the best team in the conference and best player in the conference. The latter did not win acc poy.

DBFAN
03-05-2017, 06:02 PM
So if Jackson won because he was on the top team. Then why doesn't same logic apply to Smith winning ROY for State, over Tatum

dukelifer
03-05-2017, 06:03 PM
I see Justin Jackson has won the Joseph Forte Award. Congrats to him ...

Here is hoping that he ends his season in Forte like fashion.

vick
03-05-2017, 06:19 PM
Honestly, these are not very surprising votes. The first team was predicted by pretty much everyone (and in my opinion, they got it right). Bacon on second team is the only one that in my opinion just cannot be supported by the stats, but that also is not a surprise.

The new voting system doesn't seem to have worked out as badly as some of us, myself included, feared. There are a few silly votes--I'm looking at you, Person Who Voted Dennis Smith Defensive Player of the Year--but honestly, I don't think any votes are as bad as the first-team votes for Angel Rodriguez last year, just to pick one example.

Tripping William
03-05-2017, 06:20 PM
There is a difference between best player on the best team in the conference and best player in the conference. The latter did not win acc poy.

Neither did the former, IMHO (the "H" being of the sagegrouse variety).

Dukehky
03-05-2017, 07:47 PM
Luke got jobbed. I mean, if we beat State and Miami or Syracuse, I think Luke wins pretty handily, but you know who is pissed off about this? Luke Kennard. Good luck defense.

arnie
03-05-2017, 07:52 PM
I see Justin Jackson has won the Joseph Forte Award. Congrats to him ...

Gonna make Roy's attempts to keep Jackson around next year a little harder, but I trustinRoy that Justin shows up for year 4.

Olympic Fan
03-05-2017, 08:01 PM
Not surprising -- just disappointing ... as I noted earlier, Luke was superior to Justin Jackson in every category ... except assists, where they were about even.

Interesting to compare the "official" team, picked by a panel, with the ACSMA team, which is picked by the full voting membership of the ACC media.

They also picked Jackson as POY ... same first five ...

Coach of the year was different -- Pastner won, but he only beat Roy by one vote.

ACSMA ACC All-Conference Teams
First Team
1--2—3
Points
Justin Jackson, North Carolina (Jr.)
49--0--0
*147
Luke Kennard, Duke (Soph.)
49--0--0
*147
John Collins, Wake Forest (Soph.)
45--4--0
143
Bonzie Colson, Notre Dame (Jr.)
42--6--1
139
Donovan Mitchell, Louisville (Soph.)
35--9--1
124
*unanimous
Second Team
1--2—3
Points
Dennis Smith, Jr., NC State (Fr.)
5--33--7
88
Michael Young, Pittsburgh (Sr.)
6--28--10
84
Dwayne Bacon, Florida State (Soph.)
4--25--13
75
Joel Berry, II, North Carolina (Jr.)
2--25--13
69
Jaron Blossongame, Clemson (RS-Sr.)
1--17--20
57
Third Team
1--2—3
Points
Ben Lammers, Georgia Tech (Jr.)
0--16--18
52
London Perrantes, Virginia (Sr.)
2--15--15
51
Andrew White, III, Syracuse (Gr. Transfer)
1--9--17
38
Kennedy Meeks, North Carolina (Sr.)
2--11--8
36
Jerome Robinson, Boston College (Soph.)
1--5—14
27
Honorable Mention
1--2—3
Points
Jamel Artis, Pittsburgh (Sr.)
0--5—9
19
Davon Reed, Miami (Sr.)
0--4—10
18
Zach LeDay, Virginia Tech (RS-Sr.)
0--0—17
17
Jayson Tatum, Duke (Fr.)
0--5—5
15
Matt Farrell, Notre Dame (Jr.)
0--3—9
15
Jonathan Isaac, Florida State (Fr)
0--4—6
14
Grayson Allen, Duke (Jr.)
0--3—8
14
Bryant Crawford, Wake Forest (Jr.)
0--3—5
11
Tyler Lydon, Syracuse (Soph.)
0--2—7
11
Seth Allen, Virginia Tech (RS-Sr.)
0--3—4
10
Defensive Team
Votes
Ben Lammers, Georgia Tech (Jr.)
46
Donovan Mitchell, Louisville (Soph.)
37
Isaiah Wilkins , Virginia (Jr.)
26
Bonzie Colson, Notre Dame (Jr.)
18
John Collins, Wake Forest (Jr.)
13
(continued)
Freshman Team
Votes
Jonathan Isaac, Florida State
49
Dennis Smith, Jr., NC State
49
Josh Okogie, Georgia Tech
43
Jayson Tatum, Duke
42
Bruce Brown, Miami
29
Player of the Year
Votes
Justin Jackson, North Carolina (Jr.)
20
John Collins, Wake Forest (Soph.)
14
Luke Kennard, Duke (Soph.)
9
Bonzie Colson, Notre Dame (Jr.)
4
Donovan Mitchell, Louisville (Soph.)
1
Michael Young, Pittsburgh (Sr.)
1
Coach of the Year
Votes
Josh Pastner, Georgia Tech
15
Roy Williams, UNC
14
Leonard, Hamilton, Florida State
8
Buzz Williams, Virginia Tech
4
Danny Manning, Wake Forest
4
Mike Brey, Notre Dame
2
Rick Pitino, Louisville
2
Defensive Player of the Year
Votes
Ben Lammers, Georgia Tech (Jr.)
28
Donovan Mitchell, Louisville (Soph.)
8
Bonzie, Colson, Notre Dame (Jr.)
5
Freshman of the Year
Votes
Dennis Smith, Jr.
41
Jayson Tatum, Duke
4
Most Improved
Votes
John Collins, Wake Forest (Jr.)
23
Ben Lammers, Georgia Tech (Jr.)
9
Matt Farrell, Notre Dame (Jr.)
6
Sixth Man

UrinalCake
03-05-2017, 08:20 PM
No reasonable human being could argue that Jackson had a better year. Here are their stats, with rank among all ACC players shown:

Points per game
1. Kennard 20.10
7. Jackson 18.3

Rebounds per game
27. Kennard 5.3
35. Jackson 4.7

Field goal percentage
18. Kennard 50.4%
37. Jackson 45.2%

3-pt percentage
6. Kennard 45.0%
28. Jackson 38.5%

Assists
27. Jackson 2.6
29. Kennard 2.5

Free throw percentage
4. Kennard 84.7%
25. Jackson 75.5%


I also pulled these advanced stats off of sports-reference.com:

PER
Kennard 25.4
Jackson 21.7

Effective FG%
Kennard 59.8%
Jackson 54.3%

Free throw rate
Kennard 38.3%
Jackson 21.7%

Total rebound percentage
Kennard 8.5%
Jackson 8.0%

Assist percentage
Kennard 13.9%
Jackson 14.8%

Steal percentage
Kennard 1.3%
Jackson 1.0%

Turnover percentage
Kennard 9.2%
Jackson 9.1%

Win shares
Kennard 6.5
Jackson 5.0

Furniture
03-05-2017, 08:25 PM
Can't believe Josh Jackson won. Well...who cares anyway...

Dukehky
03-05-2017, 08:58 PM
No reasonable human being could argue that Jackson had a better year. Here are their stats, with rank among all ACC players shown:

Points per game
1. Kennard 20.10
7. Jackson 18.3

Rebounds per game
27. Kennard 5.3
35. Jackson 4.7

Field goal percentage
18. Kennard 50.4%
37. Jackson 45.2%

3-pt percentage
6. Kennard 45.0%
28. Jackson 38.5%

Assists
27. Jackson 2.6
29. Kennard 2.5

Free throw percentage
4. Kennard 84.7%
25. Jackson 75.5%


I also pulled these advanced stats off of sports-reference.com:

PER
Kennard 25.4
Jackson 21.7

Effective FG%
Kennard 59.8%
Jackson 54.3%

Free throw rate
Kennard 38.3%
Jackson 21.7%

Total rebound percentage
Kennard 8.5%
Jackson 8.0%

Assist percentage
Kennard 13.9%
Jackson 14.8%

Steal percentage
Kennard 1.3%
Jackson 1.0%

Turnover percentage
Kennard 9.2%
Jackson 9.1%

Win shares
Kennard 6.5
Jackson 5.0



Let's not forget that Luke's adjusted defensive efficiency is better than Jackson's. This is some BS.

rsvman
03-05-2017, 09:45 PM
No reasonable human being could argue that Jackson had a better year. Here are their stats, with rank among all ACC players shown:

Points per game
1. Kennard 20.10
7. Jackson 18.3

Rebounds per game
27. Kennard 5.3
35. Jackson 4.7

Field goal percentage
18. Kennard 50.4%
37. Jackson 45.2%

3-pt percentage
6. Kennard 45.0%
28. Jackson 38.5%

Assists
27. Jackson 2.6
29. Kennard 2.5

Free throw percentage
4. Kennard 84.7%
25. Jackson 75.5%


I also pulled these advanced stats off of sports-reference.com:

PER
Kennard 25.4
Jackson 21.7

Effective FG%
Kennard 59.8%
Jackson 54.3%

Free throw rate
Kennard 38.3%
Jackson 21.7%

Total rebound percentage
Kennard 8.5%
Jackson 8.0%

Assist percentage
Kennard 13.9%
Jackson 14.8%

Steal percentage
Kennard 1.3%
Jackson 1.0%

Turnover percentage
Kennard 9.2%
Jackson 9.1%

Win shares
Kennard 6.5
Jackson 5.0

Other than that, though, Jackson is better, right?

NashvilleDevil
03-05-2017, 10:07 PM
Other than that, though, Jackson is better, right?

I mean it's what Bilas says so it must be so.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-06-2017, 05:35 AM
That's the only knock. JJ was too soft his first two years to go and he couldn't shoot. He was smart to come back, but he was held back developmentally by that system.

That's a ridiculous statement. Sure he had a high *rating and had great upside, but Jackson came from a home schooled environment where he played against weak competition, was physically immature, he need structure and time to fulfill his promise.

He got great coaching and developed as expected...and will now go high in the NBA draft.

That is a weak and inaccurate narrative you continue to try and float.

plimnko
03-06-2017, 05:48 AM
Can't believe Josh Jackson won. Well...who cares anyway...

one could get the feeling they're playing with a stacked deck

weezie
03-06-2017, 06:13 AM
Can't believe Josh Jackson won. Well...who cares anyway...

Same exact words I said upon hearing the news.

Troublemaker
03-06-2017, 06:17 AM
That's a ridiculous statement. Sure he had a high *rating and had great upside, but Jackson came from a home schooled environment where he played against weak competition, was physically immature, he need structure and time to fulfill his promise.

He got great coaching and developed as expected...and will now go high in the NBA draft.

That is a weak and inaccurate narrative you continue to try and float.

Wait, what? When they were freshmen, you thought Jackson was a better player than Winslow:


<snip>I don't think Winslow can stay in front of Jackson and he has a quick first step, a nice mid range game that he will have to bring for UNC to be successful.<snip>

<snip>Jackson's going to get Winslow and will have keep in front of him, denying the drive, which I think he can.<snip>

What happened? Obviously with Winslow becoming an OAD lottery pick and Jackson ending up stuck at UNC for at least 3 years, you had to change your narrative.

UrinalCake
03-06-2017, 07:53 AM
That's a ridiculous statement. Sure he had a high *rating and had great upside, but Jackson came from a home schooled environment where he played against weak competition, was physically immature, he need structure and time to fulfill his promise.

He got great coaching and developed as expected...and will now go high in the NBA draft.

That is a weak and inaccurate narrative you continue to try and float.


An NBA scout said this about Jackson at last year's NBA Combine:

"He kind of became one-dimensional at North Carolina. I'm not a Hall of Fame coach, but I think a lot of his offensive instincts got suppressed within that system, or within his head. He just wasn't the same guy."

Furthermore,

"Said an ACC coach: "I think he's a good shooter. Their system is so different. Everything they do is a little bit different. A lot doesn't translate from their system to the NBA, other than they learn to play with other good players."

Everybody seems to know that UNC isn't developing pros. Except for UNC fans.

Reference:
http://www.nba.com/news/features/david_aldridge/david-aldridge-big-board-small-forwards-2016-nba-draft/

MartyClark
03-06-2017, 04:18 PM
That's a ridiculous statement. Sure he had a high *rating and had great upside, but Jackson came from a home schooled environment where he played against weak competition, was physically immature, he need structure and time to fulfill his promise.

He got great coaching and developed as expected...and will now go high in the NBA draft.

That is a weak and inaccurate narrative you continue to try and float.

Wheat,

There was an article cited on IC about Justin Jackson where he talked about the high level of competition for his home schooled team. Maybe he was just being respectful but it sounded like good competition.

At any rate, I like the kid. He's has had a good year and seems like a really decent kid. I would have voted for Kennard but, of course, I don't have a vote.

WillJ
03-06-2017, 05:13 PM
On a side note, I was surprised that Wake's Bryant Crawford didn't at least make honorable mention. He played very well against us in Cameron.

UNCfan
03-06-2017, 05:39 PM
An NBA scout said this about Jackson at last year's NBA Combine:

"He kind of became one-dimensional at North Carolina. I'm not a Hall of Fame coach, but I think a lot of his offensive instincts got suppressed within that system, or within his head. He just wasn't the same guy."

Furthermore,

"Said an ACC coach: "I think he's a good shooter. Their system is so different. Everything they do is a little bit different. A lot doesn't translate from their system to the NBA, other than they learn to play with other good players."

Everybody seems to know that UNC isn't developing pros. Except for UNC fans.

Reference:
http://www.nba.com/news/features/david_aldridge/david-aldridge-big-board-small-forwards-2016-nba-draft/


A lot of good kids have made a lot of money in the NBA coming out of Kansas and UNC under Roy Williams. We have not had a OAD in a several years, but we have sent kids to the league. USA Basketball has paid off incredibly well for Duke. I remember when HB signed with UNC, the uproar was that K was distracted and was not able to focus on recruiting. That criticism was short sighted.

A coach cannot take credit for the success of OAD, IMHO. The kid has it or he doesn't. UNC has had some highly ranked recruits that didn't live up to the hype. I do not think it is fair to blame our coach, but it fits the narrative that other coaches use in their recruiting pitches. If Okafor flames out in the NBA, is that Dukes fault? Kyrie was going to be a superstar, playing 14 games in a Duke uniform didn't make or break him. Where is Tyus Jones? If these kids make it, its up to their individual talent and the head on their shoulders. Big program exposure is what they need to make that happen. USA Basketball and recent OAD success provides that for your program.

The lack of OAD timeline also fits with the NCAA trouble. UNC has no one to blame but themselves for that. I don't expect to change anyones opinions, just had to get that off my chest.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-06-2017, 06:49 PM
Wait, what? When they were freshmen, you thought Jackson was a better player than Winslow:



What happened? Obviously with Winslow becoming an OAD lottery pick and Jackson ending up stuck at UNC for at least 3 years, you had to change your narrative.

Not sure where in my quotes you came up with where I ever said Jackson was "better" than Winslow.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-06-2017, 06:57 PM
An NBA scout said this about Jackson at last year's NBA Combine:

"He kind of became one-dimensional at North Carolina. I'm not a Hall of Fame coach, but I think a lot of his offensive instincts got suppressed within that system, or within his head. He just wasn't the same guy."

Furthermore,

"Said an ACC coach: "I think he's a good shooter. Their system is so different. Everything they do is a little bit different. A lot doesn't translate from their system to the NBA, other than they learn to play with other good players."

Everybody seems to know that UNC isn't developing pros. Except for UNC fans.

Reference:
http://www.nba.com/news/features/david_aldridge/david-aldridge-big-board-small-forwards-2016-nba-draft/

Everybody has an opinion, as weak as it may be, and anybody who thinks Justin's game is one dimensional is not watching him play.

If UNC can't develop pros, how do you explain that in just the last NBA draft, UNC was represented by Brice Johnson as a first round pick? As a freshman, nobody expected him to develop into a first round pick. Roy coached him there.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-06-2017, 07:08 PM
Wheat,

There was an article cited on IC about Justin Jackson where he talked about the high level of competition for his home schooled team. Maybe he was just being respectful but it sounded like good competition.

At any rate, I like the kid. He's has had a good year and seems like a really decent kid. I would have voted for Kennard but, of course, I don't have a vote.

My understanding was he didn't see quality competition until he started playing AAU stuff. And I think I've seen every interview he's done at UNC, and he does come across as a quality kid.

I have been very impressed with Kennard's play all season. Like I said in another post, I felt Jackson was deserving as POY for leading the best team in the conference as its best player. But had Kennard been selected, I would not have challenged him as the pick. He's also had that good of a season and has been right there with Jackson for that award the whole way. There can only be one, however, and I think Jackson being on the #1 team put him over the top with voters.

Furniture
03-06-2017, 07:44 PM
To me this argument is getting silly. None of you will agree on this one.

Troublemaker
03-06-2017, 07:53 PM
Not sure where in my quotes you came up with where I ever said Jackson was "better" than Winslow.

Right. All you wrote was that Winslow couldn't guard Jackson, but Jackson could guard Winslow. I don't know how I could've drawn that conclusion.

That said, all you had to say was that your initial assessment of Jackson was wrong, Wheat. As it turns out, you learned that Jackson needed a lot more seasoning than you believed at the time, and you figured out you should not have mentioned him in the same breath as Winslow. Therefore, Jackson made a good choice to stay 3+ years at UNC because he needed that time to develop. That's all you had to say. No big deal. I think I would've bought it, too.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-06-2017, 08:05 PM
Right. All you wrote was that Winslow couldn't guard Jackson, but Jackson could guard Winslow. I don't know how I could've drawn that conclusion.

That said, all you had to say was that your initial assessment of Jackson was wrong, Wheat. As it turns out, you learned that Jackson needed a lot more seasoning than you believed at the time, and you figured out you should not have mentioned him in the same breath as Winslow. Therefore, Jackson made a good choice to stay 3+ years at UNC because he needed that time to develop. That's all you had to say. No big deal. I think I would've bought it, too.

After seeing Jackson as a freshman, I never thought he was a threat to be OAD.

I did think that Jackson's quickness was going to give Winslow more trouble that first Duke game, but Winslow strength won out and Jackson had a poor game.

The second game was much more even, with Jackson actually out scoring Winslow by one.

But for the record, as freshmen, Winslow was a better, more mature player than Jackson. I hope that satisfies you.

Troublemaker
03-06-2017, 08:14 PM
After seeing Jackson as a freshman, I never thought he was a threat to be OAD.

I did think that Jackson's quickness was going to give Winslow more trouble that first Duke game, but Winslow strength won out and Jackson had a poor game.

The second game was much more even, with Jackson actually out scoring Winslow by one.

But for the record, as freshmen, Winslow was a better, more mature player than Jackson. I hope that satisfies you.

Unfortunately, no. But look, your purpose on this forum should not be to satisfy me.

Jackson vs Winslow wasn't some sort of quickness vs strength battle. Winslow was stronger, yes, but he was also much quicker than Jackson. Your assessment was just wrong. And that's okay. It's okay to be wrong.

jipops
03-06-2017, 08:17 PM
A lot of good kids have made a lot of money in the NBA coming out of Kansas and UNC under Roy Williams. We have not had a OAD in a several years, but we have sent kids to the league. USA Basketball has paid off incredibly well for Duke. I remember when HB signed with UNC, the uproar was that K was distracted and was not able to focus on recruiting. That criticism was short sighted.

A coach cannot take credit for the success of OAD, IMHO. The kid has it or he doesn't. UNC has had some highly ranked recruits that didn't live up to the hype. I do not think it is fair to blame our coach, but it fits the narrative that other coaches use in their recruiting pitches. If Okafor flames out in the NBA, is that Dukes fault? Kyrie was going to be a superstar, playing 14 games in a Duke uniform didn't make or break him. Where is Tyus Jones? If these kids make it, its up to their individual talent and the head on their shoulders. Big program exposure is what they need to make that happen. USA Basketball and recent OAD success provides that for your program.

The lack of OAD timeline also fits with the NCAA trouble. UNC has no one to blame but themselves for that. I don't expect to change anyones opinions, just had to get that off my chest.

I agree with this 100%. Preach!

In general, way WAY too much stock is put into what coaches do with their players and how it translates to them being nba players. Like you said, either a kid has it or he doesn't. I would add this applies to more than just the oad's too.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-06-2017, 08:34 PM
Unfortunately, no. But look, your purpose on this forum should not be to satisfy me.

Jackson vs Winslow wasn't some sort of quickness vs strength battle. Winslow was stronger, yes, but he was also much quicker than Jackson. Your assessment was just wrong. And that's okay. It's okay to be wrong.

My purpose is to correct your incorrect statements :)

I don't think you will find many objective observers that think Winslow is quicker than Jackson.

Kjeffrey
03-06-2017, 08:44 PM
My purpose is to correct your incorrect statements :)

I don't think you will find many objective observers that think Winslow is quicker than Jackson.

My husband, a Wake alum, disagrees and I think he is pretty objective.

Dukehky
03-06-2017, 09:46 PM
UNC has a journalism school right? Local media has a lot to do with ACC POY voting right? Cool.

Trinity_93
03-07-2017, 12:38 AM
...Jackson came from a home schooled environment...

So he's going to graduate college without having attended ANY class EVER?

Troublemaker
03-07-2017, 06:43 AM
My purpose is to correct your incorrect statements :)

I don't think you will find many objective observers that think Winslow is quicker than Jackson.

Ha, forget objective observers. I'm not sure you'll find 5 UNC fans who think Jackson is quicker. If Jackson were quicker than Winslow, then Roy actually did hold him back.

UNCfan
03-07-2017, 07:56 AM
I think Winslow had more "dog" in him than Jackson. That mentality is missing from all of the UNC players on this current team. I think they are soft too. Berry showed toughness the other day and UNC made winning plays, but they were at home. If they can find the right mentality over the next month, they have as good of a shot as anyone to win it all.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-07-2017, 09:43 AM
I think Winslow had more "dog" in him than Jackson. That mentality is missing from all of the UNC players on this current team. I think they are soft too. Berry showed toughness the other day and UNC made winning plays, but they were at home. If they can find the right mentality over the next month, they have as good of a shot as anyone to win it all.

I agree. Who desperately wants the ball in game winning situations on that team?

Berry showed some moxie the other night, but that seemed unprecedented.

UNCfan
03-07-2017, 10:44 AM
I agree. Who desperately wants the ball in game winning situations on that team?

Berry showed some moxie the other night, but that seemed unprecedented.

Berry played really well at the end of last year. He was ACC Tournament MVP and he scored 20 points in the championship game. 4 for 4 from three. He has not been consistently great this year. The games UNC lost on the road were his worst games. I think he comes back next year and contends for ACC POY.

I think Jackson wants the ball at the end of the game. He can make plays for himself and for others. UNC only lost two games this season that were close in the last few minutes. UK and Duke. He played well in both of those games. UVA, GT, Miami, and Indiana games were not close, so no clutch moments to speak of.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-08-2017, 08:23 AM
I think Jackson wants the ball at the end of the game. He can make plays for himself and for others.

See, it's the "think" that makes me feel like no one has established themselves in the role at UNC. Last year, Paige WANTED the ball and the big shot. This year, Tatum wants it for us, though if it comes down to it, Grayson may wrestle it out of his hands coming down the floor to take it himself.

sagegrouse
03-08-2017, 09:00 AM
I think Winslow had more "dog" in him than Jackson. That mentality is missing from all of the UNC players on this current team. I think they are soft too. Berry showed toughness the other day and UNC made winning plays, but they were at home. If they can find the right mentality over the next month, they have as good of a shot as anyone to win it all.

The defining memory I have of Winslow is racing up the court with the ball, shedding defenders as if they were kindergartners. I can't think of anyone else in college being able to do that, unless Barkley had that kind of handle.

Bay Area Duke Fan
03-08-2017, 11:44 AM
The defining memory I have of Winslow is racing up the court with the ball, shedding defenders as if they were kindergartners. I can't think of anyone else in college being able to do that, unless Barkley had that kind of handle.

Art Heyman and Jabari Parker.