Harry Giles minutes..

[dukefan_828]

Is Harry on a minutes limit? Has looked great when he's in lately but seems to stay around the 10mpg vicinity.. if anyone has any insight or info please share. Would love to see the "Big Ticket" get around 20 mpg. Knows how to finish at the basket, good hands, and excellent rebounder. I know his main knock has been ability to defend the p&r on defense, but ive seen some improvements from him defensively during this winning streak. Lets hear it..

[kshepinthehouse]

Who would you like to sit during those 10 extra minutes?

[Kedsy]

Is Harry on a minutes limit?

Unlikely, since in 6 of his 14 games he's exceeded 10 minutes, including 4 games of 17 or more minutes.

[dukefan_828]

Unlikely, since in 6 of his 14 games he's exceeded 10 minutes, including 4 games of 17 or more minutes.
well in 4 of the last 5 he's gone under 10. Just saying he is the most highly coveted player in the last 5yrs and in limited minutes to me he's looked excellent. Came up huge against ND when called upon as well as in NC game.. LETS GO DUKE

[dukefan_828]

Unlikely, since in 6 of his 14 games he's exceeded 10 minutes, including 4 games of 17 or more minutes.

LESS THAN HALF HIS GAMES... come on

[dukefan_828]

Who would you like to sit during those 10 extra minutes?

Amile jefferson and Old man jones split it 5 and 5. AJ who i love has not been the same since injury and matt is all in for the betterment of the team so im sure he wouldnt mind.

[Indoor66]

Amile jefferson and Old man jones split it 5 and 5. AJ who i love has not been the same since injury and matt is all in for the betterment of the team so im sure he wouldnt mind.

Do you watch the games?

[dukefan_828]

Do you watch the games?

Everyone faithfully, whats your argument.

[SCMatt33]

I highly doubt there's any strict limit like, say, Joel Embiid has with the Sixers, but they are clearly being careful with him. I think it was telling that they didn't even think about subbing him in when Amile picked up his 4th foul with nearly 6 minutes to go. Now keep in mind, this game tipped 39 hours after the end of the UNC game which is as short of a turnaround you can get outside of an in season or conference tourney. I think that may have played into it, though we'll find out for sure if we win a game in Brooklyn and have a true back to back.

[dukefan_828]

I highly doubt there's any strict limit like, say, Joel Embiid has with the Sixers, but they are clearly being careful with him. I think it was telling that they didn't even think about subbing him in when Amile picked up his 4th foul with nearly 6 minutes to go. Now keep in mind, this game tipped 39 hours after the end of the UNC game which is as short of a turnaround you can get outside of an in season or conference tourney. I think that may have played into it, though we'll find out for sure if we win a game in Brooklyn and have a true back to back.

Great reply the decision to stick w amile w four fouls is what compelled me to make the thread!

[Indoor66]

Everyone faithfully, whats your argument.

Who would you sit?

[Bob Green]

Amile jefferson and Old man jones split it 5 and 5. AJ who i love has not been the same since injury and matt is all in for the betterment of the team so im sure he wouldnt mind.

Playing Giles at the expense of Jefferson and Jones is an atrocious idea. Jefferson and Jones are the two players who fuel the defense. They can be counted on to always be in the right place to guard their man and provide help to others.

Defense wins championships!

[jipops]

To me it's not so much how many minutes he gets but what we do with him while he is in there. Today he had almost no usage and even with good position our guards looked him off. I'd like to see us get him more involved on the offensive end. It will make him more engaged on the defensive end.

[79-77]

I'd like to see Giles get more minutes too -- because he will only get more minutes by earning them with strong play, which I haven't seen much of from him. He's been pretty much clueless on D and picks up fouls and turnovers on offense like a pre-senior-year Zoubek.

As a related point -- during K's post-game presser today, someone asked him about his plan for Giles' usage over the rest of the season and he got a bit annoyed.

[AFL]

Playing Giles at the expense of Jefferson and Jones is an atrocious idea. Jefferson and Jones are the two players who fuel the defense. They can be counted on to always be in the right place to guard their man and provide help to others.

Defense wins championships!

Playing a projected first round NBA draft pick at the expense of two guys who aren't on any NBA draft boards doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. Also, I don't buy the idea that defense wins championships. If that was the case, then Virginia would win it all this year hands down.

[AFL]

I'd like to see Giles get more minutes too -- because he will only get more minutes by earning them with strong play, which I haven't seen much of from him. He's been pretty much clueless on D and picks up fouls and turnovers on offense like a pre-senior-year Zoubek.

As a related point -- during K's post-game presser today, someone asked him about his plan for Giles' usage over the rest of the season and he got a bit annoyed.

He gets annoyed talking about Harry Giles, while in the preseason, Giles was promoted as being the second coming of Chris Webber. I really feel sorry for Harry, because he came into the season injured, and still had unrealistic expectations placed on him by both the media, and the coaching staff. I would never say that Harry has underachieved. I have the utmost respect for the kid. I'm just saying that he had unrealistic expectations placed on him that he simply is not healthy enough yet to fulfill. I wish the kid nothing but the best.

[Bob Green]

Playing a projected first round NBA draft pick at the expense of two guys who aren't on any NBA draft boards doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.

Apples and oranges. Harry Giles is going to be drafted in the 1st round based on potential. Jefferson and Jones are experienced, talented college ball players.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Playing a projected first round NBA draft pick at the expense of two guys who aren't on any NBA draft boards doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. Also, I don't buy the idea that defense wins championships. If that was the case, then Virginia would win it all this year hands down.

I would say that playing a guy who is projected to do better over the next 12 years of his professional career over two guys who play better today when you likely only have the one player for another six weeks would be folly.

But each to their own.

[AFL]

I would say that playing a guy who is projected to do better over the next 12 years of his professional career over two guys who play better today when you likely only have the one player for another six weeks would be folly.

But each to their own.

Amile Jefferson and Matt Jones are both seniors, so they have the same number of games left in a Duke uniform as Harry Giles. If you insist on recruiting these one-and-done players, then you have to play them, or else it makes you look silly.

[AFL]

To me it's not so much how many minutes he gets but what we do with him while he is in there. Today he had almost no usage and even with good position our guards looked him off. I'd like to see us get him more involved on the offensive end. It will make him more engaged on the defensive end.

Duke's lack of a true point guard is really hurting Harry Giles. He can absolutely finish in the paint, but no one is getting him the ball in the post. His lack of production is not totally his fault.

[OldPhiKap]

Amile Jefferson and Matt Jones are both seniors, so they have the same number of games left in a Duke uniform as Harry Giles. If you insist on recruiting these one-and-done players, then you have to play them, or else it makes you look silly.

Don't you think that if Giles was beating Amile in practice, he would be getting the minutes?

Harry will be an incredible pro. Right now, though, Amile is the better player. It's really kinda that simple.

[CDu]

Amile Jefferson and Matt Jones are both seniors, so they have the same number of games left in a Duke uniform as Harry Giles. If you insist on recruiting these one-and-done players, then you have to play them, or else it makes you look silly.

No, playing the less effective player just because he is a prospect would be silly.

Jefferson and Jones are better college basketball players than Giles is right now. In 2-3 years? No question that Giles should be better. But Coach K should be playing the guys who give Duke the best chance to win today/this year. And right now, that means Jefferson. Because Giles is rusty, possibly not 100%, and doesn't play defense as well as Jefferson does at this point in their careers.

[KandG]

Is Harry on a minutes limit? Has looked great when he's in lately but seems to stay around the 10mpg vicinity.. if anyone has any insight or info please share. Would love to see the "Big Ticket" get around 20 mpg. Knows how to finish at the basket, good hands, and excellent rebounder. I know his main knock has been ability to defend the p&r on defense, but ive seen some improvements from him defensively during this winning streak. Lets hear it..

I'm hoping Harry continues to get increased minutes, but he has to be able to stay on the floor. Prior to today, his foul rate per 40 minutes was 8.1. Needless to say, that's not ideal.

Duke players in the last 15 years who played at least 15 percent of the team's minutes (per KenPom) and had a foul rate of over 7 per 40: Sean Dockery, Nick Horvath, Casey Sanders, Reggie Love, Lance Thomas, Brian Zoubek, Josh Hairston, and Chase Jeter. You could argue that Zoubek and Sanders were the only real contributors of note to their respective teams (2010 and 2003 respectively), and apart from Zoubek these guys fit the description of low usage role players.

The foul issues aren't a theoretical concern either, given one of the notable issues in our slack period in January -- all Grayson drama aside -- was our propensity for getting into the bonus too early in halves. We've cut back on that recently and (what a coincidence!) our play has improved.

Now we're talking about a very small sample size for Harry, and his talent upside is far beyond all the names mentioned here. But it shows you how difficult recovery from a long injury layoff is. Being able to cut back his fouls and improve his defensive awareness will go a long way toward getting him a few more minutes per game. I'd love for him to do that, because one thing I looked forward to before his injuries was the potential for him and Jayson to work together on offense. They've shown an affinity for looking for each other in the (very) limited times they've played together on offense, but it's been rough because of the rust.

[NM Duke Fan]

Personally I felt the number of minutes he played today was just about perfect, as others have stated it was very important for Jefferson to be out there. I dd notice, however, that when he was open in a good position a couple of times the guards either did not see him in a timely manner or were more inclined toward other options. Would have been nice to see him get a nice feed or two, that is an area for further growth, although some games he has received some nice passes in a good spot. Incremental progress is hopefully in the cards for both his minutes and how he becomes an even more integrated part of the tream.

[Dukehky]

Bolden played 2 minutes, Giles didn't get in the second half.

I don't like that at all. Giles at THE VERY LEAST, gives us energy on the boards.

[OldPhiKap]

Bolden played 2 minutes, Giles didn't get in the second half.

I don't like that at all. Giles at THE VERY LEAST, gives us energy on the boards.

Bolden got two fouls in two minutes too.

[Karl Beem]

Amile was -9 while Harry was +7. Amile is injured and has no lift.

[bloodevil]

Mr. Giles came to Duke to get an education, and that is exactly what he is getting. Let us all hope that he learns his lessons.

[Kedsy]

Is Harry on a minutes limit? Has looked great when he's in lately but seems to stay around the 10mpg vicinity.


Unlikely, since in 6 of his 14 games he's exceeded 10 minutes, including 4 games of 17 or more minutes.


LESS THAN HALF HIS GAMES... come on

You know what a "minutes limit" is, right? Your original post suggested he might be on a 10 minute limit (which, in case you weren't sure, would mean that after playing 10 minutes he would be taken out and not put back in). Since he played more than 10 minutes in 43% of his games (significantly more in 29% of his games), he clearly isn't on a 10 minute limit.

Why you thought an all caps response and "come on" were an appropriate response to an obvious answer to your question is beyond me.

[Devilwin]

Playing Giles at the expense of Jefferson and Jones is an atrocious idea. Jefferson and Jones are the two players who fuel the defense. They can be counted on to always be in the right place to guard their man and provide help to others.

Defense wins championships!

You're absolutely correct, defense does win titles. But all you have to do is watch the game today and see how tired the guys were to believe we need some bench help. Bolden and Giles can spell Amile for a few minutes to allow him to catch his breath. We were fortunate to win today, and I believe fatigue had a lot to do with it.
And I believe some of that fatigue was emotional, after the UNC win..And I will say this, albeit a fact that Amile and Uncle Matty fuel the defense, it is a fact that Matt's offensive production has been streaky, Amile's has been virtually non existent. We need at least SOME offense from them, and other than an occasional put back by Amile or a couple of Jones threes, it's just not there. Harry is showing better movement around the basket, and is becoming a better scoring threat than Amile. That being said, we need the leadership Jefferson provides, but it would not hurt to give Giles a few more minutes..

[Bob Green]

But all you have to do is watch the game today and see how tired the guys were to believe we need some bench help. Bolden and Giles can spell Amile for a few minutes to allow him to catch his breath. We were fortunate to win today, and I believe fatigue had a lot to do with it.

It is about philosophy. I'm talking Coach K's philosophy. Coach K's philosophy is to identify your best players and play them maximum number of minutes so he is training the starters to play through fatigue. Coach K does his substituting during the 1st half and shrinks the rotation to six in the 2nd half unless someone fouls out. It's what he does.

Yesterday, eight players played with Bolden seeing two minutes action so we can label it a 7+ man rotation. The rotation will most likely look similar the remainder of the season. Harry Giles will most likely continue to play in the neighborhood of 10 minutes per game.

[MChambers]

It is about philosophy. I'm talking Coach K's philosophy. Coach K's philosophy is to identify your best players and play them maximum number of minutes so he is training the starters to play through fatigue. Coach K does his substituting during the 1st half and shrinks the rotation to six in the 2nd half unless someone fouls out. It's what he does.

Yesterday, eight players played with Bolden seeing two minutes action so we can label it a 7+ man rotation. The rotation will most likely look similar the remainder of the season. Harry Giles will most likely continue to play in the neighborhood of 10 minutes per game.

I have to believe that if the coaching staff thought that Harry was playing as well as the top six are, he'd get more minutes. I don't know the degree to which they base their evaluation of Harry's play on practice, or how he's doing in a particular game, but I'm sure his limited minutes are based on what they see as his current level of play. If Harry were playing better, I don't think Coach K would have a problem playing 7 players in the second half.

[arnie]

You're absolutely correct, defense does win titles. But all you have to do is watch the game today and see how tired the guys were to believe we need some bench help. Bolden and Giles can spell Amile for a few minutes to allow him to catch his breath. We were fortunate to win today, and I believe fatigue had a lot to do with it.
And I believe some of that fatigue was emotional, after the UNC win..And I will say this, albeit a fact that Amile and Uncle Matty fuel the defense, it is a fact that Matt's offensive production has been streaky, Amile's has been virtually non existent. We need at least SOME offense from them, and other than an occasional put back by Amile or a couple of Jones threes, it's just not there. Harry is showing better movement around the basket, and is becoming a better scoring threat than Amile. That being said, we need the leadership Jefferson provides, but it would not hurt to give Giles a few more minutes..

Devilwin, I think you are spot on. Yes, Giles isn't the player we hoped for yet, but he's a very strong rebounder and catches the ball/finishes around the basket. With Amile bothered/limited by his foot injury, I can't understand why K won't rest Amile a little more in 2nd halves. The drop off from a tired/hurt Amile to Giles isn't significant. I guess we will just disagree with others (that's what message boards are for) that think K should essentially play his starters 35-40 minutes a game.

[Bob Green]

I have to believe that if the coaching staff thought that Harry was playing as well as the top six are, he'd get more minutes. I don't know the degree to which they base their evaluation of Harry's play on practice, or how he's doing in a particular game, but I'm sure his limited minutes are based on what they see as his current level of play. If Harry were playing better, I don't think Coach K would have a problem playing 7 players in the second half.

I do not disagree with you. It appears to me we are saying "almost" the same thing in our posts. My viewpoint is slightly less flexible than yours in regard to the 2nd half rotation but we certainly are not communicating polar opposite opinions.


I guess we will just disagree with others (that's what message boards are for) that think K should essentially play his starters 35-40 minutes a game.

I am not saying Coach K "should" play his starters 35-40 minutes per game, I am saying Coach K "does" play his starters 35-40 minutes per game.

[jv001]

Over the years I've grown accustomed to Coach K's rotation minutes. It's brought Duke University 5 National titles, so I'm not going to question him. But to many the question is would it be better to play a tired Amile a lot of minutes or give Harry some of Amile's minutes. I realize Coach K played Giles and Bolden in the first half but Clemson is a rugged team and I think it's ok to ask the question should Harry have played more minutes in the 2nd half. Not only was Amile tired, he had 4 fouls and played less than stellar defense in the 2nd half. Amile wasn't the only gassed player yesterday. Grayson was running on fumes and playing on bum ankle. The defense suffered in the 2nd half from being worn out physically and mentally. But, the main thing is we got a win yesterday. We'll just have to wait and see how Coach's rotations work for the remainder of the season. I'm more concerned about Grayson's ankle injury. GoDuke!

[Saratoga2]

Over the years I've grown accustomed to Coach K's rotation minutes. It's brought Duke University 5 National titles, so I'm not going to question him. But to many the question is would it be better to play a tired Amile a lot of minutes or give Harry some of Amile's minutes. I realize Coach K played Giles and Bolden in the first half but Clemson is a rugged team and I think it's ok to ask the question should Harry have played more minutes in the 2nd half. Not only was Amile tired, he had 4 fouls and played less than stellar defense in the 2nd half. Amile wasn't the only gassed player yesterday. Grayson was running on fumes and playing on bum ankle. The defense suffered in the 2nd half from being worn out physically and mentally. But, the main thing is we got a win yesterday. We'll just have to wait and see how Coach's rotations work for the remainder of the season. I'm more concerned about Grayson's ankle injury. GoDuke!

I an older fan and not too big on stats, preferring to watch the games closely. I don't see how to differentiate between an individual players defense from the team defense. In the second half the team defense was sloppy due to all the tired players, even though when Harry was in during the first half the team defense was excellent.

I did notice Harry bothered a lot of shots in close and also got 5 rebounds in 10 minutes and had one PF, while Amile got 9 rebounds in 29 minutes. That is not a knock on Amile, who played well defensively but a plus for Harry's defense. When Amile was playing very tired with 4 fouls it is reasonable of people to ask if Harry may have done the job well in the second half.

Coach K knows what he is doing so I will be satisfied with his decision making and hope if he sees what I saw that Harry will get additional time.

[-jk]

Remember that defense is a team effort, and Amile is the best communicator facilitating that defense. Harry has a lot to learn in that regard...

-jk

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Remember that defense is a team effort, and Amile is the best communicator facilitating that defense. Harry has a lot to learn in that regard...

-jk

Amile is a fifth year senior, so of course he's going to be able to interpret and then communicate what K wants on defense.

I believe the issue is Amile is miscast as a Center on this team, as he's more naturally a PF. He should be playing the 4 spot with Giles at the 5, which is clearly his natural position in college.

The 6th man would be Tatum or Jones with Kennard and Allen in the backcourt. Jackson and Bolden would be your 7th and 8th guys.

My guess is if everyone had been healthy to start the season, this is the rotation we would be seeing now.

But due to injuries, the team is behind the curve and K's had to improvise.

By March, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Giles/Jefferson front court, depending on matchups.

[Saratoga2]

Amile is a fifth year senior, so of course he's going to be able to interpret and then communicate what K wants on defense.

I believe the issue is Amile is miscast as a Center on this team, as he's more naturally a PF. He should be playing the 4 spot with Giles at the 5, which is clearly his natural position in college.

The 6th man would be Tatum or Jones with Kennard and Allen in the backcourt. Jackson and Bolden would be your 7th and 8th guys.

My guess is if everyone had been healthy to start the season, this is the rotation we would be seeing now.

But due to injuries, the team is behind the curve and K's had to improvise.

By March, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Giles/Jefferson front court, depending on matchups.

Matchups do matter and against a smaller team like UVA, I think our current starters matchup best. When Giles starts we have to face the problem of who do you sit. Grayson Luke, Jayson and Matt have all earned starting spots and Amile is definitely a starter.

About the only argument that makes much sense is if we face a really big team like FSU we might need to put in a front line with both Amile and Harry in with Marques also subbing. But then if comes down to who do we sit?

[budwom]

Devilwin, I think you are spot on. Yes, Giles isn't the player we hoped for yet, but he's a very strong rebounder and catches the ball/finishes around the basket. With Amile bothered/limited by his foot injury, I can't understand why K won't rest Amile a little more in 2nd halves. The drop off from a tired/hurt Amile to Giles isn't significant. I guess we will just disagree with others (that's what message boards are for) that think K should essentially play his starters 35-40 minutes a game.

I agree. And apropos to the never ending argument/discussion about how a player has to practice well to play, I saw an interesting comment
from lacrosse coach Danowski, who is clearly one of the very best coaches at Duke in recent decades.

Before a recent game (the opener I believe) he said and I paraphrase: We've practice a whole lot, but the only way you get better is to play in games.
I couldn't agree more.
Yeah, I understand the whole Ya Gotta Practice Well notion, I really do....but in a team practice you go up against the same several players, month after month, same style,
without refs. In games a player has to deal with different guys all the time, different teams have different styles, and refs play a major role, unlike in practice.

Assuming (and I do) that Duke's not going to win it all playing only six guys, I see a major benefit in getting Giles and Bolden more minutes ASAP.

[CDu]

Matchups do matter and against a smaller team like UVA, I think our current starters matchup best. When Giles starts we have to face the problem of who do you sit. Grayson Luke, Jayson and Matt have all earned starting spots and Amile is definitely a starter.

About the only argument that makes much sense is if we face a really big team like FSU we might need to put in a front line with both Amile and Harry in with Marques also subbing. But then if comes down to who do we sit?

FSU isn't a big team either. They play most of the game with a 4-out approach. UNC and Louisville are the only upper-tier teams that play two-big lineups the majority of the time.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Matchups do matter and against a smaller team like UVA, I think our current starters matchup best. When Giles starts we have to face the problem of who do you sit. Grayson Luke, Jayson and Matt have all earned starting spots and Amile is definitely a starter.

About the only argument that makes much sense is if we face a really big team like FSU we might need to put in a front line with both Amile and Harry in with Marques also subbing. But then if comes down to who do we sit?

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said, however, I do think that had Giles been healthy to start the season he too would have "earned" a starting spot by now.

I also believe to use Amile to his best potential, it's putting him at the 4 next to a Center as opposed to banging down low with opposing 5's. Since his injury, Jefferson has been overpowered at times due to his lack of size and strength.

[CDu]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said, however, I do think that had Giles been healthy to start the season he too would have "earned" a starting spot by now.

I also believe to use Amile to his best potential, it's putting him at the 4 next to a Center as opposed to banging down low with opposing 5's. Since his injury, Jefferson has been overpowered at times due to his lack of size and strength.

Jefferson sure didn't look overpowered at the 5 against UNC.

[kshepinthehouse]

Jefferson sure didn't look overpowered at the 5 against UNC.

Also, having Jefferson at the 5 allows us our own mismatches at the offensive end. Most notably there aren't a lot of 4s in the country who can matchup with Tatum. Duke exploit d these matchups beautifully against UNC in which Meeks or Mabe had to defend against a guard driving. Didn't work out to well for them. If Giles and Jefferson were in that game at the same time, I suspect UNC is able to play much better defense against us.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Jefferson sure didn't look overpowered at the 5 against UNC.

I wasn't as impressed with Amile's performance verses the CHeats as many others were.


Also, having Jefferson at the 5 allows us our own mismatches at the offensive end. Most notably there aren't a lot of 4s in the country who can matchup with Tatum. Duke exploit d these matchups beautifully against UNC in which Meeks or Mabe had to defend against a guard driving. Didn't work out to well for them. If Giles and Jefferson were in that game at the same time, I suspect UNC is able to play much better defense against us.

And having a 6'8" Tatum at SF wouldn't give us mismatches too?

I remember Kyle Singler being pretty darn effective in 2010 playing at the 3 spot with Lance and Zoubek at the PF and Center positions.

I believe Jefferson would thrive in the "Lance Thomas" role with Giles focused on rim protection and rebounding, similar to Z's 2010 role.

Matt would be your 6th Starter and Jackson and Bolden round out the bench.

A starting lineup of 6'5" Allen, 6'7" Kennard, 6'8" Tatum, 6'8" Jefferson, and 6'11" Giles would create a lot of problems for opposing defenses while giving us extra length and athleticism on defense.

[kshepinthehouse]

I wasn't as impressed with Amile's performance verses the CHeats as many others were.



And having a 6'8" Tatum at SF wouldn't give us mismatches too?

I remember Kyle Singler being pretty darn effective in 2010 playing at the 3 spot with Lance and Zoubek at the PF and Center positions.

I believe Jefferson would thrive in the "Lance Thomas" role with Giles focused on rim protection and rebounding, similar to Z's 2010 role.

Matt would be your 6th Starter and Jackson and Bolden round out the bench.

A starting lineup of 6'5" Allen, 6'7" Kennard, 6'8" Tatum, 6'8" Jefferson, and 6'11" Giles would create a lot of problems for opposing defenses while giving us extra length and athleticism on defense.

Actually Singler struggled more than predicted that year. I, along with many others, felt he played better at the 4 his junior year.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Actually Singler struggled more than predicted that year. I, along with many others, felt he played better at the 4 his junior year.

2010 was his junior year, when he played primarily SF.

He struggled with shooting his Senior year, in 2011.

[vick]

I wasn't as impressed with Amile's performance verses the CHeats as many others were.



And having a 6'8" Tatum at SF wouldn't give us mismatches too?

I remember Kyle Singler being pretty darn effective in 2010 playing at the 3 spot with Lance and Zoubek at the PF and Center positions.

I believe Jefferson would thrive in the "Lance Thomas" role with Giles focused on rim protection and rebounding, similar to Z's 2010 role.

Matt would be your 6th Starter and Jackson and Bolden round out the bench.

A starting lineup of 6'5" Allen, 6'7" Kennard, 6'8" Tatum, 6'8" Jefferson, and 6'11" Giles would create a lot of problems for opposing defenses while giving us extra length and athleticism on defense.

You want to replace Jones, by far our best perimeter defender, with Giles in the starting lineup? That gives you extra length, sure, but is pretty clearly a huge downgrade in defensive skill. We'd get shredded on the wing.

[kshepinthehouse]

I wasn't as impressed with Amile's performance verses the CHeats as many others were.



And having a 6'8" Tatum at SF wouldn't give us mismatches too?

I remember Kyle Singler being pretty darn effective in 2010 playing at the 3 spot with Lance and Zoubek at the PF and Center positions.

I believe Jefferson would thrive in the "Lance Thomas" role with Giles focused on rim protection and rebounding, similar to Z's 2010 role.

Matt would be your 6th Starter and Jackson and Bolden round out the bench.

A starting lineup of 6'5" Allen, 6'7" Kennard, 6'8" Tatum, 6'8" Jefferson, and 6'11" Giles would create a lot of problems for opposing defenses while giving us extra length and athleticism on defense.

There were a lot more 3s in the country that could matchup with Singler vs 4s. The same is true of Tatum in my opinion. The second half of the UNC game Duke did a great job of exploiting the Mabe vs Tatum matchup, as evidenced by his 19 second half points. If Giles and Jefferson were both in the game at the same time, Mabe switches over to one of them, a matchup that is less of an advantage for Duke considering Jefferson and Giles haven't touched the ball in a lot of one on one situations in the post. On paper it would be pretty good for them, but I'm not sure either would have completely dominated Mabe the way Tatum did.

[cbarry]

You want to replace Jones, by far our best perimeter defender, with Giles in the starting lineup? That gives you extra length, sure, but is pretty clearly a huge downgrade in defensive skill. We'd get shredded on the wing.

I would take that starting lineup all day, every day. There would be much more help defense down low with both Giles and Jefferson in the lineup. I'm not saying don't play Matt, but for most games, I think we'd be better served by having Giles start at the 5, and move Jefferson to 4 and Tatum to 3 (more natural positions for Jefferson and Tatum). Bring Matt, Frank, and Marques off the bench.

[uh_no]

I agree. And apropos to the never ending argument/discussion about how a player has to practice well to play, I saw an interesting comment
from lacrosse coach Danowski, who is clearly one of the very best coaches at Duke in recent decades.
...
Assuming (and I do) that Duke's not going to win it all playing only six guys, I see a major benefit in getting Giles and Bolden more minutes ASAP.

The insinuation here is that K should listen to D because D has had enormous success in recent decades. I'm not sure I agree with that insinuation.

What I do agree with is that there is more than one way to be successful. Coach K does it one way, D does it another. Boeheim plays zone, UK gets long players and blocks shots...

[KandG]

I believe Jefferson would thrive in the "Lance Thomas" role with Giles focused on rim protection and rebounding, similar to Z's 2010 role.

Matt would be your 6th Starter and Jackson and Bolden round out the bench.

A starting lineup of 6'5" Allen, 6'7" Kennard, 6'8" Tatum, 6'8" Jefferson, and 6'11" Giles would create a lot of problems for opposing defenses while giving us extra length and athleticism on defense.


You want to replace Jones, by far our best perimeter defender, with Giles in the starting lineup? That gives you extra length, sure, but is pretty clearly a huge downgrade in defensive skill. We'd get shredded on the wing.

Can't really say I'm feeling a Jones-less lineup with Giles at the 5 either. Jones is the only perimeter player we have who can keep guards/wings in front of him and put some pressure at the point of attack (though Frank is evolving). Allen & Kennard tend to allow their guys to get past them, and Tatum at the 3 would pose the same risk since he would be opposite a quicker player in many cases.

If we had to play Amile at the 4 with a big, I might even prefer Bolden at the 5, because he at least uses his size to wall off opponents a bit better than Giles and shows more polish on hedging and recovering. (He has the same issues as Harry when it comes to fouling, though).

Note: I would love to be wrong about Harry in 2-3 weeks when he takes that next step forward and can spot Amile for more minutes and capably defend. But any lineup without our best perimeter defender is a no-no unless we're playing a team with slow guards and lots of size (not too many teams like that out there), or we're committed to winning a shootout.

[Edouble]

Amile is a fifth year senior, so of course he's going to be able to interpret and then communicate what K wants on defense.

I believe the issue is Amile is miscast as a Center on this team, as he's more naturally a PF. He should be playing the 4 spot with Giles at the 5, which is clearly his natural position in college.

The 6th man would be Tatum or Jones with Kennard and Allen in the backcourt. Jackson and Bolden would be your 7th and 8th guys.

My guess is if everyone had been healthy to start the season, this is the rotation we would be seeing now.

But due to injuries, the team is behind the curve and K's had to improvise.

By March, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Giles/Jefferson front court, depending on matchups.

I agree that Amile is a natural PF. He has played center a lot over his Duke career, which is unfortunate, IMO. FWIW, Coach K said that pre-injury, Bolden was the starting center during the preseason.



I wasn't as impressed with Amile's performance verses the CHeats as many others were.

And having a 6'8" Tatum at SF wouldn't give us mismatches too?

I remember Kyle Singler being pretty darn effective in 2010 playing at the 3 spot with Lance and Zoubek at the PF and Center positions.

I believe Jefferson would thrive in the "Lance Thomas" role with Giles focused on rim protection and rebounding, similar to Z's 2010 role.

Matt would be your 6th Starter and Jackson and Bolden round out the bench.

A starting lineup of 6'5" Allen, 6'7" Kennard, 6'8" Tatum, 6'8" Jefferson, and 6'11" Giles would create a lot of problems for opposing defenses while giving us extra length and athleticism on defense.

This is my dream lineup... the one I thought we were going to be embarrassing people with. It is the lineup that we started for our 110-57 beatdown of Ga Tech, BTW.

There are some problems with this lineup, as I see it:

1) Only two shooters to spread the floor. Jayson's 3 point shooting, at way-sub-40%, just isn't the weapon that we like to see from a Blue Devil who can open up the lane by hoisting threes.

2) Giles has not shown that he can operate in the post to create his own shot.

3) We can't switch as much on defense with this lineup. Bolden's defense is probably what had him pegged as the starting center early on. He is a beast with the strong hedge/double and recovery. Bolden actually got minutes before Harry in yesterday's game but committed a really dumb over the back foul plus another foul (can't remember what it was) in two minutes, and then didn't see anymore action.

Harry, as several posters have noted, is lacking lateral quickness, so I'm not sure he can pull off the kind of defense that Bolden can. Harry is a better rebounder than Bolden, and doesn't foul at such a high rate. If we could somehow Frankenstein their games together, we might have our starting center, but since we can't, you get Amile.

4) Tatum seems to be better at the Stretch 4 position than the 3 position on offense. He is a matchup issue at the 3, but a matchup nightmare at the 4. Having this matchup nightmare, alongside a defensive specialist in Matt Jones on the other side of the ball, is currently outweighing the benefits that come along with starting Harry at the 5.

Amile is a natural PF, but not really a natural Duke PF. Coach K loves the Stretch 4, so Amile's next best position is at the 5. Harry hasn't shown enough, it would seem, to force Coach K's hand to go with the "dream lineup" listed above.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

You want to replace Jones, by far our best perimeter defender, with Giles in the starting lineup? That gives you extra length, sure, but is pretty clearly a huge downgrade in defensive skill. We'd get shredded on the wing.

We got shredded on the wing in the 2nd half yesterday vs Clemson, with Matt on the floor.

Having someone out there in Giles that can alter shots and provide more rebounding would be huge to this team.

And Jones would still get minutes, as the first guy off the bench for either Tatum, Kennard, or Allen.

The bottom line is this year's squad has potential very similar to the 2010 team if K set the lineups with a focus on utilizing our size and athleticism, in my opinion.

Just my $.02

[budwom]

The insinuation here is that K should listen to D because D has had enormous success in recent decades. I'm not sure I agree with that insinuation.

What I do agree with is that there is more than one way to be successful. Coach K does it one way, D does it another. Boeheim plays zone, UK gets long players and blocks shots...

Utterly absurd perceived "insinuation" on your part. I make no such suggestion that "K should listen to D." Talk about a straw man...

No, I'm merely pointing out that there are others out there besides casual fans who look at the practice vs play relationship differently.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

I agree that Amile is a natural PF. He has played center a lot over his Duke career, which is unfortunate, IMO. FWIW, Coach K said that pre-injury, Bolden was the starting center during the preseason.




This is my dream lineup... the one I thought we were going to be embarrassing people with. It is the lineup that we started for our 110-57 beatdown of Ga Tech, BTW.

There are some problems with this lineup, as I see it:

1) Only two shooters to spread the floor. Jayson's 3 point shooting, at way-sub-40%, just isn't the weapon that we like to see from a Blue Devil who can open up the lane by hoisting threes.

2) Giles has not shown that he can operate in the post to create his own shot.

3) We can't switch as much on defense with this lineup. Bolden's defense is probably what had him pegged as the starting center early on. He is a beast with the strong hedge/double and recovery. Bolden actually got minutes before Harry in yesterday's game but committed a really dumb over the back foul plus another foul (can't remember what it was) in two minutes, and then didn't see anymore action.

Harry, as several posters have noted, is lacking lateral quickness, so I'm not sure he can pull off the kind of defense that Bolden can. Harry is a better rebounder than Bolden, and doesn't foul at such a high rate. If we could somehow Frankenstein their games together, we might have our starting center, but since we can't, you get Amile.

4) Tatum seems to be better at the Stretch 4 position than the 3 position on offense. He is a matchup issue at the 3, but a matchup nightmare at the 4. Having this matchup nightmare, alongside a defensive specialist in Matt Jones on the other side of the ball, is currently outweighing the benefits that come along with starting Harry at the 5.

Amile is a natural PF, but not really a natural Duke PF. Coach K loves the Stretch 4, so Amile's next best position is at the 5. Harry hasn't shown enough, it would seem, to force Coach K's hand to go with the "dream lineup" listed above.

All good points...

And your last sentence is the key: It's up to Giles to show K he's ready. Let's hope that he does force K's hand, as that would be a great problem to have.

[vick]

I agree that Amile is a natural PF. He has played center a lot over his Duke career, which is unfortunate, IMO. FWIW, Coach K said that pre-injury, Bolden was the starting center during the preseason.




This is my dream lineup... the one I thought we were going to be embarrassing people with. It is the lineup that we started for our 110-57 beatdown of Ga Tech, BTW.

There are some problems with this lineup, as I see it:

1) Only two shooters to spread the floor. Jayson's 3 point shooting, at way-sub-40%, just isn't the weapon that we like to see from a Blue Devil who can open up the lane by hoisting threes.

2) Giles has not shown that he can operate in the post to create his own shot.

3) We can't switch as much on defense with this lineup. Bolden's defense is probably what had him pegged as the starting center early on. He is a beast with the strong hedge/double and recovery. Bolden actually got minutes before Harry in yesterday's game but committed a really dumb over the back foul plus another foul (can't remember what it was) in two minutes, and then didn't see anymore action.

Harry, as several posters have noted, is lacking lateral quickness, so I'm not sure he can pull off the kind of defense that Bolden can. Harry is a better rebounder than Bolden, and doesn't foul at such a high rate. If we could somehow Frankenstein their games together, we might have our starting center, but since we can't, you get Amile.

4) Tatum seems to be better at the Stretch 4 position than the 3 position on offense. He is a matchup issue at the 3, but a matchup nightmare at the 4. Having this matchup nightmare, alongside a defensive specialist in Matt Jones on the other side of the ball, is currently outweighing the benefits that come along with starting Harry at the 5.

Amile is a natural PF, but not really a natural Duke PF. Coach K loves the Stretch 4, so Amile's next best position is at the 5. Harry hasn't shown enough, it would seem, to force Coach K's hand to go with the "dream lineup" listed above.

FWIW, here are the +/- and minutes played from this lineup, from Neals384

Tenn State: 0, 0:29
Georgia Tech: +5, 8:02
BC: -5, 3:18
Miami: -2, 3:01
NC State: 0, 2:13
Clemson: -2, 2:15

Total is -4 over 19:18. Now, one combined half of basketball is not much for a lineup (it's basically useless for a player), but still, I would not call that encouraging.

[fuse]

Offensive stats are comparable to Lance Thomas.
Defensively, Giles isn't there yet.

Situation appears inverted from Bolden- decent defense, raw offense.

If Giles can up his defense, the offensive opportunities will come.

It was said in another thread - if Amile and Matt are our foundation on defense, and Kennard, Allen and Tatum on offense, if you want PT, you need to find your niche.

I think Frank has figured it out, and hope Bolden and Giles will in the next month.

[devilnfla]

To me it's obvious. If Giles and Bolden can get a few minutes each in the 1st half, then why not in the second half? I get Amile is the better option right now, but Amile playing the entire second half, injured as well, doesn't bode well for Duke in the long run. In my opinion, a rested Amile in the last 7 minutes of the game yesterday would have worked better than the final result, which featured Clemson having the ball on the last possession with a chance to win.

The team was damn fortunate to win that one.

[jv001]

To me it's obvious. If Giles and Bolden can get a few minutes each in the 1st half, then why not in the second half? I get Amile is the better option right now, but Amile playing the entire second half, injured as well, doesn't bode well for Duke in the long run. In my opinion, a rested Amile in the last 7 minutes of the game yesterday would have worked better than the final result, which featured Clemson having the ball on the last possession with a chance to win.The team was damn fortunate to win that one.

When Amile received his 4th foul, I thought he was coming out but instead Coach K left him in. I've seen Coach do this many times with his star players. However it's usually a good offensive player and not a the good defensive player. I've never played college basketball and never coached college basketball, but my eye test says it would be easier for the offensive player to not get the quick foul. I know Grayson fouled out against the cheats, but that was a terrible call. The refs are quick to blow the whistle if one of Duke's bigs touches the player he's guarding. Plus Amile is still not 100% and was tirred. Just my 2 cents. GoDuke!

[BandAlum83]

Matchups do matter and against a smaller team like UVA, I think our current starters matchup best. When Giles starts we have to face the problem of who do you sit. Grayson Luke, Jayson and Matt have all earned starting spots and Amile is definitely a starter.

About the only argument that makes much sense is if we face a really big team like FSU we might need to put in a front line with both Amile and Harry in with Marques also subbing. But then if comes down to who do we sit?

I believe K played Harry, Amile and Jayson together for about 4 minutes between the under 8 and under four timeouts. I think it was with Grayson and Luke.

I could be wrong about the total time and when, but I remember noting it and pointing it out on DBR chat.

K was wanting to take a look at something different, it seemed.

[azzefkram]

FWIW, here are the +/- and minutes played from this lineup, from Neals384

Tenn State: 0, 0:29
Georgia Tech: +5, 8:02
BC: -5, 3:18
Miami: -2, 3:01
NC State: 0, 2:13
Clemson: -2, 2:15

Total is -4 over 19:18. Now, one combined half of basketball is not much for a lineup (it's basically useless for a player), but still, I would not call that encouraging.

I don't think you can call that anything. GTech is about 13-15 possessions total. TState might not even of had the lineup on defense. The rest are probably less than ten possessions per game.

[Bob Green]

I know Grayson fouled out against the cheats, but that was a terrible call.

I have to disagree. Grayson's 5th foul was a good call. His 4th foul was a missed call, Meeks fouled Grayson before Grayson fouled Berry.

[vick]

I don't think you can call that anything. GTech is about 13-15 possessions total. TState might not even of had the lineup on defense. The rest are probably less than ten possessions per game.

I mostly agree--I was mainly pointing out that the Ga Tech "beatdown" lineup point is a bit misleading, as it wasn't even one of the more effective lineups in that game, let alone in others. The argument in favor of it has to be theoretical and speculative, as the actual evidence we have for it is negative, albeit inconclusively.

[superdave]

Recall the outsized role that Grayson played in the Final Four in 2015. No one would have thought it until it happened. Perhaps the same will be said for Harry - he's looking better, and pretty good at times, but just has not put it all together for long stretches.

We will need him at some point this season because of foul trouble or matchups. I assume he will be ready.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Recall the outsized role that Grayson played in the Final Four in 2015. No one would have thought it until it happened. Perhaps the same will be said for Harry - he's looking better, and pretty good at times, but just has not put it all together for long stretches.

We will need him at some point this season because of foul trouble or matchups. I assume he will be ready.

Spot on.

[Dukehky]

Bolden got two fouls in two minutes too.

1 of which was a bad call. He also played really good defense and got a tip out for a Matt Jones 3. Amile is hurt, AND had 4 fouls and we were essentially playing a back to back.

There is more than one way to win a game. I understand that K shortens his bench in dicey moments, but there's always a part of me that feels like things would be less dicey if he opened it up a little more. Bolden and Giles are not as good as Jefferson and Tatum at the moment, but they are better than Thomas and Djitte.

Also, Grayson hurt his ankle yesterday, was not playing well, and I thought Frank was really good, thought frank should have played more in the second half yesterday.



I know the way K does things, I know that they usually work, but that doesn't mean I always have to agree, and it doesn't mean that I'm an idiot when I think there is another way to do things (we've seen Cape and K go the other way on this stuff and have it work). I thought yesterday would have been a good time to expand the rotation a little bit.

[uh_no]

1 of which was a bad call. He also played really good defense and got a tip out for a Matt Jones 3. Amile is hurt, AND had 4 fouls and we were essentially playing a back to back.

There is more than one way to win a game. I understand that K shortens his bench in dicey moments, but there's always a part of me that feels like things would be less dicey if he opened it up a little more. Bolden and Giles are not as good as Jefferson and Tatum at the moment, but they are better than Thomas and Djitte.

Also, Grayson hurt his ankle yesterday, was not playing well, and I thought Frank was really good, thought frank should have played more in the second half yesterday.



I know the way K does things, I know that they usually work, but that doesn't mean I always have to agree, and it doesn't mean that I'm an idiot when I think there is another way to do things (we've seen Cape and K go the other way on this stuff and have it work). I thought yesterday would have been a good time to expand the rotation a little bit.

I don't think he played all that poorly. yeah, another 3 would have been nice and he was less aggressive, but he still had 5 A vs 3 TO, and grabbed 3 boards. He's fortunately still finding ways to contribute even when his shot's not falling.

Also on a side note, is there a trainers room out behind the duke bench? I suppose I should know these things, but just curious.

[Kedsy]

FWIW, Coach K said that pre-injury, Bolden was the starting center during the preseason.

I would note that Harry Giles wasn't available at that time. My guess is when both were healthy, there was never a time when Marques was considered a starter ahead of Harry.


Bolden's defense is probably what had him pegged as the starting center early on.

Maybe. I thought Marques had one really good game on D (Miami or State, can't remember which), and other than that (including yesterday), has only looked so-so on defense, though I say that with the caveat that it's hard to look really good at anything when you only get to play two minutes.


Harry is a better rebounder than Bolden, and doesn't foul at such a high rate.

Harry is a MUCH better rebounder than Marques, who has actually been a very poor rebounder for his size (his defensive rebounding rate (7.9%) is a fair amount worse than Luke's (12.9%) and Grayson's (13.1%), and only a little better than Frank's (7.1%); Harry's DR%, on the other hand, is a team-leading 24.6%, just ahead of Amile's 24.3%).

However, Harry's foul rate (8.0 fouls per 40 for season; 8.1 fouls per 40 in conference) is actually worse than Marques's (7.4 fouls per 40 for season; 7.7 fouls per 40 in conference).


Having someone out there in Giles that can alter shots and provide more rebounding would be huge to this team.

I haven't seen any stats on altering shots, but Harry's block percentage (4.5%) is a tad worse than Amile's (4.6%) and barely better than Jayson's (4.4%). Marques's block percentage is an abysmal 2.3%. The real shot-blocker on our bench is Chase (6.8%).

Again, Harry has been an outstanding rebounder, but there's no evidence so far that he'd be an advantage on defense as a guy who can block and alter shots. He especially hasn't been an advantage over Amile.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

I haven't seen any stats on altering shots, but Harry's block percentage (4.5%) is a tad worse than Amile's (4.6%) and barely better than Jayson's (4.4%). Marques's block percentage is an abysmal 2.3%. The real shot-blocker on our bench is Chase (6.8%).

Again, Harry has been an outstanding rebounder, but there's no evidence so far that he'd be an advantage on defense as a guy who can block and alter shots. He especially hasn't been an advantage over Amile.

And those stats actually prove my point, because my suggestion is playing all three of Tatum, Jefferson, and Giles at the same time. Further, pairing Tatum and Jefferson against(theoretically) smaller opponents would likely increase their defensive production.

If those three(excluding the injured Jeter) are our best shot blockers, how could starting all three not help our rim protection and rebounding?

[kshepinthehouse]

And those stats actually prove my point, because my suggestion is playing all three of Tatum, Jefferson, and Giles at the same time. Further, pairing Tatum and Jefferson against(theoretically) smaller opponents would likely increase their defensive production.

If those three(excluding the injured Jeter) are our best shot blockers, how could starting all three not help our rim protection and rebounding?

Will it help our offense and spacing? And what happens when Giles gets out in the pick and roll, he's been decimated by opposing guards on that play. Giles is a good player to fill in off the bench, I think you're only looking at one area and not seeing the big picture. Regardless, even if they trotted that lineup out there it wouldn't be long til Matt Jones would sub in for Giles. I agree that this would be the best NBA lineup in a couple years, but currently I don't think this is our best lineup.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Will it help our offense and spacing? And what happens when Giles gets out in the pick and roll, he's been decimated by opposing guards on that play. Giles is a good player to fill in off the bench, I think you're only looking at one area and not seeing the big picture. Regardless, even if they trotted that lineup out there it wouldn't be long til Matt Jones would sub in for Giles. I agree that this would be the best NBA lineup in a couple years, but currently I don't think this is our best lineup.

When you have Allen, Kennard, and Tatum out there, I'm not worried about the offense, to be honest.

Is Matt out there for his offense? I think not.

And, yes, Matt should play, as I see him as a "6th starter", whether that's subbing in to go "small" or subbing one of the backcourt players.

And I most definitely am looking at the big picture, as playing the 6 guys we are now almost exclusively will eventually cut off our nose to spite our face, imo.

[kshepinthehouse]

When you have Allen, Kennard, and Tatum out there, I'm not worried about the offense, to be honest.

Is Matt out there for his offense? I think not.

And, yes, Matt should play, as I see him as a "6th starter", whether that's subbing in to go "small" or subbing one of the backcourt players.

And I most definitely am looking at the big picture, as playing the 6 guys we are now almost exclusively will eventually cut off our nose to spite our face, imo.

Matt Jones is out there for offensive spacing. It gives more room for Allen, Tatum, and Kennard to find the matchup they want and attack. Giles and Jefferson together would cause us to lose some of that and would clog the lane.

[MChambers]

And those stats actually prove my point, because my suggestion is playing all three of Tatum, Jefferson, and Giles at the same time. Further, pairing Tatum and Jefferson against(theoretically) smaller opponents would likely increase their defensive production.

If those three(excluding the injured Jeter) are our best shot blockers, how could starting all three not help our rim protection and rebounding?

It might, but more likely the perimeter players on other teams would have a field day.

[CDu]

It might, but more likely the perimeter players on other teams would have a field day.

Bingo. We have trouble staying in front of perimeter players as is. Taking away our best perimeter defender and replacing him with a guy who has limited mobility would lead to more driving layups and more open 3s.

And it would hurt our offense, as what makes it work is the floor spacing.

If Tatum and Jefferson (or Giles) were better shooters, and if Allen/Kennard/Tatum were better perimeter defenders, we might be able to make it work with Giles and Jefferson on the floor together. But against teams who play 4-out, 1-in, Giles and Jefferson aren't a good pairing together. And most teams these days play 4-out, 1-in.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Matt Jones is out there for offensive spacing. It gives more room for Allen, Tatum, and Kennard to find the matchup they want and attack. Giles and Jefferson together would cause us to lose some of that and would clog the lane.

Matt is playing because of his effective team defense and experience. If he happens to knock down a couple 3's that's simply a bonus. Team's most certainly aren't concerned with his scoring.

And while Giles obviously doesn't have the shooting range of Jones, he is quite effective at setting screens and, with playing time, could be useful in pick & roll situations.

Look, I think in this situation we'll just have to agree to disagree because much of this discussion is hypothetical due to all the unfortunate injuries this year.

[kshepinthehouse]

What's not hypothetical is that Jones helps open up the floor for the other guys considering he can hit open threes. I will agree that if Giles was injury free, that you may be onto something.

[Indoor66]

K's defensive scheme has been to take away the three and defend the oppositions best offensive weapon. Analyze from that perspective.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Bingo. We have trouble staying in front of perimeter players as is. Taking away our best perimeter defender and replacing him with a guy who has limited mobility would lead to more driving layups and more open 3s.

And it would hurt our offense, as what makes it work is the floor spacing.

If Tatum and Jefferson (or Giles) were better shooters, and if Allen/Kennard/Tatum were better perimeter defenders, we might be able to make it work with Giles and Jefferson on the floor together. But against teams who play 4-out, 1-in, Giles and Jefferson aren't a good pairing together. And most teams these days play 4-out, 1-in.

But we're not putting Giles out on the perimeter in place of Jones.

I'm simply suggesting moving Tatum and Amile down a spot to their most natural positions, while letting Giles man the 5 spot.

I believe, while possibly decreasing the perimeter defense some, you'd be increasing the interior defense to compensate, resulting in greater overall depth while adding athleticism and rebounding.

[Devilwin]

I have been reading these lineups posted here, and most leave Matt on the bench. I just cannot see not starting our best defender, especially when he is liable to go off with some big 3s. He's streaky, give you that, but he is third in the league in steals and our best lock down guy. It's a dilemma for sure. Still, a way must be figured out to get more minutes from our bench, heck, UNC went 9 or ten deep the other night. And before someone chimes in with "well, they lost," remember they are 21 and 5.:confused:

[Emerrick]

I have been reading these lineups posted here, and most leave Matt on the bench. I just cannot see not starting our best defender, especially when he is liable to go off with some big 3s. He's streaky, give you that, but he is third in the league in steals and our best lock down guy. It's a dilemma for sure. Still, a way must be figured out to get more minutes from our bench, heck, UNC went 9 or ten deep the other night. And before someone chimes in with "well, they lost," remember they are 21 and 5.:confused:

Matt is Charlie Hustle. He sets the tone for much of the team. He's the Pete Rose of Duke (without the legal issues). He's a mature, effective leader on the court. There is no way he sits for Harry.

Grayson, Matt and Amile are our court leaders, full stop. I, too, wish Harry was played more. He has incredible potential. He just hasn't shown to me that he deserves to be in over Amile or Matt. I'm hopeful Harry and Marques explode soon - but, sadly, I don't expect them to do so based on what I've seen thus far.

[Kedsy]

Still, a way must be figured out to get more minutes from our bench, heck, UNC went 9 or ten deep the other night. And before someone chimes in with "well, they lost," remember they are 21 and 5.:confused:

Not the best argument, IMO. In 2010, UNC had 11 players who averaged 10+ mpg. They finished 10th in the ACC and missed the NCAA tournament. Roy Williams is famous for going deep into his bench. Coach K is famous for the opposite. Doesn't mean one way is necessarily better or worse than the other. While people here complain about K not playing our bench guys, I believe people at IC complain about Roy wasting minutes on guys who aren't nearly as good as his starters. I guess the moral of the story is fans are never satisfied.

[Devilwin]

Not the best argument, IMO. In 2010, UNC had 11 players who averaged 10+ mpg. They finished 10th in the ACC and missed the NCAA tournament. Roy Williams is famous for going deep into his bench. Coach K is famous for the opposite. Doesn't mean one way is necessarily better or worse than the other. While people here complain about K not playing our bench guys, I believe people at IC complain about Roy wasting minutes on guys who aren't nearly as good as his starters. I guess the moral of the story is fans are never satisfied.

You're right on us never being satisfied, but remember, we salivate over these great recruiting classes we get, then for one reason or another these kids roll the dice and they ride the bench? There has to be something there, else they would not have been so highly regarded. Are we just not getting the best out of them? And I ask, how long will it be when it begins to hurt recruiting (don't go to Duke, you'll never see much playing time)? Kids pay attention to stuff like that.
I am not asking for a revamp here, just a few minutes here and there to develop our big guys is all. Time will come when we need them, and they may not be ready to answer the bell...

[CDu]

But we're not putting Giles out on the perimeter in place of Jones.

I'm simply suggesting moving Tatum and Amile down a spot to their most natural positions, while letting Giles man the 5 spot.

I believe, while possibly decreasing the perimeter defense some, you'd be increasing the interior defense to compensate, resulting in greater overall depth while adding athleticism and rebounding.

You are putting Giles on the floor in place of Jones. So, as I said, we are taking our best (and, to be honest, only good) perimeter defender off the floor, and putting a guy who isn't mobile on the floor. Yes, you are moving Tatum to the 3 and Jefferson to the 4. But that doesn't seem to be a smart stategy when our problem is defending dribble penetration. By taking away a perimeter defender and replacing him with a post defender, we now have one fewer guy (and our best guy at that) to defend guards. That means more dribble penetration, more guys chasing and being forced to help/switch, and thus more open 3s. We might see another block or two, but I don't think that offsets the increase in attempts in the lane and the increase in open looks from 3.

Also, Jefferson's natural position in college is in the post. Tatum's natural position in college is the 4. Their natural NBA positions would be the PF and SF, respectively. But not in college.

[kshepinthehouse]

You're right on us never being satisfied, but remember, we salivate over these great recruiting classes we get, then for one reason or another these kids roll the dice and they ride the bench? There has to be something there, else they would not have been so highly regarded. Are we just not getting the best out of them? And I ask, how long will it be when it begins to hurt recruiting (don't go to Duke, you'll never see much playing time)? Kids pay attention to stuff like that.
I am not asking for a revamp here, just a few minutes here and there to develop our big guys is all. Time will come when we need them, and they may not be ready to answer the bell...

Giles is a shadow of himself at the moment. Had he not been injured he might not come off the floor lol

[jv001]

You are putting Giles on the floor in place of Jones. So, as I said, we are taking our best (and, to be honest, only good) perimeter defender off the floor, and putting a guy who isn't mobile on the floor. Yes, you are moving Tatum to the 3 and Jefferson to the 4. But that doesn't seem to be a smart stategy when our problem is defending dribble penetration. By taking away a perimeter defender and replacing him with a post defender, we now have one fewer guy (and our best guy at that) to defend guards. That means more dribble penetration, more guys chasing and being forced to help/switch, and thus more open 3s. We might see another block or two, but I don't think that offsets the increase in attempts in the lane and the increase in open looks from 3.

Also, Jefferson's natural position in college is in the post. Tatum's natural position in college is the 4. Their natural NBA positions would be the PF and SF, respectively. But not in college.

You have hit the nail squarely on the head. Matt is our best perimeter defender by far and we need him on the court. Had he not played great defense the past two games we would be 6-6 in the ACC. I know Grayson and Luke had great offensive games in those games, but had Matt not defended like he did, Grayson and Luke's offense would have been in vain. If the roles were reversed, Matt's defense would have been in vain. So, that shows we need: Grayson, Luke, Matt, Amile and Jayson getting the most minutes and starting. We need to have a sizeable lead at the 4 minute mark in every game we have. I'm a firm believer in hitting the other team with our best effort in those first four minutes because it does something to both teams confidence. GoDuke!

[flyingdutchdevil]

You have hit the nail squarely on the head. Matt is our best perimeter defender by far and we need him on the court. Had he not played great defense the past two games we would be 6-6 in the ACC. I know Grayson and Luke had great offensive games in those games, but had Matt not defended like he did, Grayson and Luke's offense would have been in vain. If the roles were reversed, Matt's defense would have been in vain. So, that shows we need: Grayson, Luke, Matt, Amile and Jayson getting the most minutes and starting. We need to have a sizeable lead at the 4 minute mark in every game we have. I'm a firm believer in hitting the other team with our best effort in those first four minutes because it does something to both teams confidence. GoDuke!

I don't get the "Harry should start" or "Harry needs more minutes" discussion, especially the former.

It would be nice if Harry started, especially if 6 players are allowed on the floor. So the question is, who the hell do you take off?

5) Case for Harry over Amile: Need more offense. That's about it. Amile is an excellent defender and competent rebounder. His rebounding numbers are only okay because he does a lot of boxing out, allowing Tatum to clean up. With Harry over Amile, you give up defense, leadership, and intangibles. Can't do it.

4) Case for Harry over Tatum: Need a bigger line-up. I'm not sure if Harry does anything better than Tatum, outside of rebounding and shot-selection. I'd take Tatum's offense, Tatum's defense, and Tatum's versatility over Harry any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Harry may have more potential (I still don't see it), but Tatum is performing so well right now. Also, Tatum is the perfect Coach K 4. And he plays defense! Did I mention that?

3) Case for Harry over Matt: Need more offense. Matt Jones's offense is erratic, and he shoots a lot of open shots that just never go in. Plus, Matt Jones isn't very efficient from inside the arc, whereas Giles has really improved in this area. And, with 3 3-pointers in the line-up (Kennard, Allen, Tatum), there is enough outside shooting. But I have two many issues with this move. First, it pushes Tatum to the 3, where he hasn't played a minute in the last 5 games. And that's a good thing, because Tatum is a nightmare at the 4. Also, it clogs up the interior, especially when Tatum drives (his bread-and-butter). Second, and more importantly, this move drastically erodes out defense. Jones is the team's best defender, bar none. He guards the best guard/wing, often with excellent results. Removing him means Tatum gets the best wing, which isn't ideal. As for guards? Dear lord; Allen and/or Kennard will get murdered. With Harry over Amile, you give up spacing and defense. Oh, you also give up defense. And defense.

2) Case for Harry over Luke: hahahahahahahahaha

1) Case for Harry over Grayson: Need a bigger line-up. I can't really defend this, but at least it makes a tab bit more sense than Luke Kennard. With Harry over Allen, you add rebounding and...um...height? With Harry over Allen, you give up spacing, our best/second best 3pt shooter, offense, defense, and intensity. No way in hell should this happen.

[Dukehky]

I don't get the "Harry should start" or "Harry needs more minutes" discussion, especially the former.

It would be nice if Harry started, especially if 6 players are allowed on the floor. So the question is, who the hell do you take off?

5) Case for Harry over Amile: Need more offense. That's about it. Amile is an excellent defender and competent rebounder. His rebounding numbers are only okay because he does a lot of boxing out, allowing Tatum to clean up. With Harry over Amile, you give up defense, leadership, and intangibles. Can't do it.

4) Case for Harry over Tatum: Need a bigger line-up. I'm not sure if Harry does anything better than Tatum, outside of rebounding and shot-selection. I'd take Tatum's offense, Tatum's defense, and Tatum's versatility over Harry any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Harry may have more potential (I still don't see it), but Tatum is performing so well right now. Also, Tatum is the perfect Coach K 4. And he plays defense! Did I mention that?

3) Case for Harry over Matt: Need more offense. Matt Jones's offense is erratic, and he shoots a lot of open shots that just never go in. Plus, Matt Jones isn't very efficient from inside the arc, whereas Giles has really improved in this area. And, with 3 3-pointers in the line-up (Kennard, Allen, Tatum), there is enough outside shooting. But I have two many issues with this move. First, it pushes Tatum to the 3, where he hasn't played a minute in the last 5 games. And that's a good thing, because Tatum is a nightmare at the 4. Also, it clogs up the interior, especially when Tatum drives (his bread-and-butter). Second, and more importantly, this move drastically erodes out defense. Jones is the team's best defender, bar none. He guards the best guard/wing, often with excellent results. Removing him means Tatum gets the best wing, which isn't ideal. As for guards? Dear lord; Allen and/or Kennard will get murdered. With Harry over Amile, you give up spacing and defense. Oh, you also give up defense. And defense.

2) Case for Harry over Luke: hahahahahahahahaha

1) Case for Harry over Grayson: Need a bigger line-up. I can't really defend this, but at least it makes a tab bit more sense than Luke Kennard. With Harry over Allen, you add rebounding and...um...height? With Harry over Allen, you give up spacing, our best/second best 3pt shooter, offense, defense, and intensity. No way in hell should this happen.


Ummmmmmm.... Harry should get more minutes when Amile is playing on a broken ankle, we're up by 6 and coming off a back to back, and its the minute and a half in the second half leading up to a TV timeout.

I'm not arguing he needs to start, but playing him more strategically, even if he's not super contributing is not some asinine thing.

[Henderson]

I don't get the "Harry should start" or "Harry needs more minutes" discussion, especially the former.

It would be nice if Harry started, especially if 6 players are allowed on the floor. So the question is, who the hell do you take off?

5) Case for Harry over Amile: Need more offense. That's about it. Amile is an excellent defender and competent rebounder. His rebounding numbers are only okay because he does a lot of boxing out, allowing Tatum to clean up. With Harry over Amile, you give up defense, leadership, and intangibles. Can't do it.

4) Case for Harry over Tatum: Need a bigger line-up. I'm not sure if Harry does anything better than Tatum, outside of rebounding and shot-selection. I'd take Tatum's offense, Tatum's defense, and Tatum's versatility over Harry any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Harry may have more potential (I still don't see it), but Tatum is performing so well right now. Also, Tatum is the perfect Coach K 4. And he plays defense! Did I mention that?

3) Case for Harry over Matt: Need more offense. Matt Jones's offense is erratic, and he shoots a lot of open shots that just never go in. Plus, Matt Jones isn't very efficient from inside the arc, whereas Giles has really improved in this area. And, with 3 3-pointers in the line-up (Kennard, Allen, Tatum), there is enough outside shooting. But I have two many issues with this move. First, it pushes Tatum to the 3, where he hasn't played a minute in the last 5 games. And that's a good thing, because Tatum is a nightmare at the 4. Also, it clogs up the interior, especially when Tatum drives (his bread-and-butter). Second, and more importantly, this move drastically erodes out defense. Jones is the team's best defender, bar none. He guards the best guard/wing, often with excellent results. Removing him means Tatum gets the best wing, which isn't ideal. As for guards? Dear lord; Allen and/or Kennard will get murdered. With Harry over Amile, you give up spacing and defense. Oh, you also give up defense. And defense.

2) Case for Harry over Luke: hahahahahahahahaha

1) Case for Harry over Grayson: Need a bigger line-up. I can't really defend this, but at least it makes a tab bit more sense than Luke Kennard. With Harry over Allen, you add rebounding and...um...height? With Harry over Allen, you give up spacing, our best/second best 3pt shooter, offense, defense, and intensity. No way in hell should this happen.

Good analysis. Cases 5 and 1 make the most sense, yet neither does right now. Why? Because Harry Giles is good, but he's not so good that you'd want to give up either Amile's or Grayson's minutes. In my view, Harry's minutes are not indicative of how good he it but rather how important the people ahead of him are to this team.

[Spanarkel]

You're right on us never being satisfied, but remember, we salivate over these great recruiting classes we get, then for one reason or another these kids roll the dice and they ride the bench? There has to be something there, else they would not have been so highly regarded. Are we just not getting the best out of them? And I ask, how long will it be when it begins to hurt recruiting (don't go to Duke, you'll never see much playing time)? Kids pay attention to stuff like that.
I am not asking for a revamp here, just a few minutes here and there to develop our big guys is all. Time will come when we need them, and they may not be ready to answer the bell...

Agree totally. There are a number of top teams this season that regularly play two bigs for the majority of the game: Arizona, Baylor, Purdue, to name just a few, along with UNC(yes, we did well against them recently without their having Hicks)and Louisville in our league. I agree with Devilwin that some of our bigs won't have had the seasoning they need. Some players take a full season's worth of regular minutes to learn to avoid the "questionable"(over the back, reaching, etc)fouls, and to learn the defense, and both HG and MB have played in the 100-150 minutes range 25 games into the season.

[Indoor66]

Harry at 80% or so does not replace anyone starting or playing big minutes on this team. He has talent, so I am told and so it appears, but he is not able to produce with that talent at the present time. Duke cannot operate on potential.

[jv001]

Good analysis. Cases 5 and 1 make the most sense, yet neither does right now. Why? Because Harry Giles is good, but he's not so good that you'd want to give up either Amile's or Grayson's minutes. In my view, Harry's minutes are not indicative of how good he it but rather how important the people ahead of him are to this team.

Harry taking away any of the starting five's minutes doesn't make any sense at all. However I would like to see Harry be able to spell Amile when he's hurting/injured or in foul trouble. Harry's just now able to play meaningful minutes since his return to actual games and I don't think it's realistic for him to get more minutes than our starters. But for Duke to advance deep in the NCAAT, I believe he will need to be ready when he's called on to play at a high level. I'm through saying I want to see Harry improve gradually. I think Harry is as physically ready as he's going to be, but I think he can improve mentally over these next months and that could be a big help in achieving the preseason goals that the team, coaches and us fans had at the beginning of the year. GoDuke!

[kAzE]

I don't get the "Harry should start" or "Harry needs more minutes" discussion, especially the former.

It would be nice if Harry started, especially if 6 players are allowed on the floor. So the question is, who the hell do you take off?

5) Case for Harry over Amile: Need more offense. That's about it. Amile is an excellent defender and competent rebounder. His rebounding numbers are only okay because he does a lot of boxing out, allowing Tatum to clean up. With Harry over Amile, you give up defense, leadership, and intangibles. Can't do it.

I don't even agree with the bolded. Amile is a better offensive player, and he proved that beyond all doubt when he was 100% healthy this season. Even in the Clemson game, our offense was so much better when Amile touched the ball in the post.

In the first half, Amile got the ball in the post on the left block, got doubled, and immediately found Luke open at the free throw line for a wide open jumper.

In the 2nd half, he got the ball on the right block. No one was in the right corner, and no double came. Spin move to the baseline and banked it in for 2.

Later in the 2nd half, caught it in the high post, took 1 dribble, saw the defense shading toward him and found Jayson for a wide open 3.

Sure, Harry is great when you can get him a lob (although he's missed quite a few dunks for some strange reason) or a wide open dump off in the paint, but he's been really inefficient going 1 on 1 in the post, and pretty much turns it over anytime he puts it on the floor. Amile is our best post player, even on offense. Almost every time he gets the ball in the post, something good happens.

2016 Harry Giles is not 2014 Harry Giles. He's way, way slower and less explosive than that guy right now, and isn't half of the defensive communicator that Amile is. I have zero doubts that if he continues to get healthier, he will start to show why he was so highly regarded, but that is looking like it won't happen until he's in the NBA.

Frankly, I think any minutes posts where the poster believes that he/she has a better grasp of what is good for the team than our all-world coaching staff who do this 24/7, and with way better data/video/SportsVU analytical tools, is laughable.

[CDu]

Ummmmmmm... Harry should get more minutes when Amile is playing on a broken ankle, we're up by 6 and coming off a back to back, and its the minute and a half in the second half leading up to a TV timeout.

I'm not arguing he needs to start, but playing him more strategically, even if he's not super contributing is not some asinine thing.

I would be perfectly fine with Giles getting, say, 2-3 minutes in the second half of that game. Especially when Djitte was in the game (Giles struggled with Thomas). That would have likely helped Jefferson down the stretch.

Though again the bigger issue was our perimeter defense. In that regard, I think getting Jackson a few more minutes would have been preferable. Especially with Allen struggling and likely hurting on the ankle.

But in terms of a "typical" game? Yeah, I think it is hard to argue that Giles should be playing major minutes over any of our perimeter guys right now.

[Masterduff]

The reason to play Giles, Bolden and Jackson more minutes is to help keep the starters out of foul trouble. If you have either Jefferson, Tatum or Allen or some combination thereof playing with 4 fouls late in tight games, that's when teams start taking it to the rim and scoring with ease. Yes Jefferson can probably play with 4 fouls and not foul out but he's not going to be effective on defense while he's trying not to foul out.

Giving Giles and Bolden 5-7 minutes a half also helps keep Jefferson from getting overly tired which can be another reason he fouls. It's a win-win, a more effective Jefferson and you're preparing his back-ups for the inevitable day when you're going to need them earlier in the game than you might have wanted.

[flyingdutchdevil]

The reason to play Giles, Bolden and Jackson more minutes is to help keep the starters out of foul trouble. If you have either Jefferson, Tatum or Allen or some combination thereof playing with 4 fouls late in tight games, that's when teams start taking it to the rim and scoring with ease. Yes Jefferson can probably play with 4 fouls and not foul out but he's not going to be effective on defense while he's trying not to foul out.

Giving Giles and Bolden 5-7 minutes a half also helps keep Jefferson from getting overly tired which can be another reason he fouls. It's a win-win, a more effective Jefferson and you're preparing his back-ups for the inevitable day when you're going to need them earlier in the game than you might have wanted.

This has never been Coach K's tactic. Coach K doesn't believe in playing your bench for fatigue or foul trouble. Now, when our starters are fatigued or in foul trouble, then you go to the bench. The bench is an insurance policy, not a strategy.

[Spanarkel]

Harry at 80% or so does not replace anyone starting or playing big minutes on this team. He has talent, so I am told and so it appears, but he is not able to produce with that talent at the present time. Duke cannot operate on potential.

IF Harry is not able to produce with his talent at the present time, why did Coach K play Harry for ten consecutive minutes in the first half of the Clemson game(from 9:57 to the end of the first half)? Did Coach K forget Harry was in the game all that time? He must have been doing a good bit right in Coach K's eyes to stay in that long. Even though it wasn't Harry's best game to date, he did get 4 rebounds and block two shots. The multiple Clemson rim runs primarily occurred in the second half.

[azzefkram]

I would be perfectly fine with Giles getting, say, 2-3 minutes in the second half of that game. Especially when Djitte was in the game (Giles struggled with Thomas). That would have likely helped Jefferson down the stretch.

Though again the bigger issue was our perimeter defense. In that regard, I think getting Jackson a few more minutes would have been preferable. Especially with Allen struggling and likely hurting on the ankle.

But in terms of a "typical" game? Yeah, I think it is hard to argue that Giles should be playing major minutes over any of our perimeter guys right now.

Couldn't agree more. Mitchell was 8-11 in the second half (5-5 on layups and 2-2 on threes). Matt can't guard everyone on the wing. Frank makes his freshman mistakes but I think his man D (phrasing) is more solid than Grayson's and especially Luke's. Luke is our best, most consistent offensive player and it's not particularly close, so he's not taking seat. Given Grayson's ankle, a little more Frank time might have helped.

Amile wasn't doing such a great job slowing down Thomas (3-4 with 5 boards in the second half). Clemson was 11-18 in the paint in the second half. I don't think Harry is the player Amile is when Amile is at 100% but Amile wasn't at 100% in the second half. Maybe Harry coming in just before the TV timeouts keeps Amile fresher for the end of the game.

It's a bit disheartening to have all this talent and still be in the 300's for bench minutes. Was I expecting us to be near the top? No, Coach K is who he is. I did expect us to be closer to the middle of the pack with respect to bench minutes.

[jv001]

I would be perfectly fine with Giles getting, say, 2-3 minutes in the second half of that game. Especially when Djitte was in the game (Giles struggled with Thomas). That would have likely helped Jefferson down the stretch.

Though again the bigger issue was our perimeter defense. In that regard, I think getting Jackson a few more minutes would have been preferable. Especially with Allen struggling and likely hurting on the ankle.
But in terms of a "typical" game? Yeah, I think it is hard to argue that Giles should be playing major minutes over any of our perimeter guys right now.

I made the comment during the 2nd half, I believe Frank should be subbing for Grayson because it was evident Grayson wasn't moving well enough to guard Mitchell. That's hard for me to say, because Grayson is my favorite player on this year's team. Frank has been coming on and played a good first half. So, I believe he would have been a better defender against Mitchell. GoDuke!

[kAzE]

It's a bit disheartening to have all this talent and still be in the 300's for bench minutes. Was I expecting us to be near the top? No, Coach K is who he is. I did expect us to be closer to the middle of the pack with respect to bench minutes.

No question we have a lot of talent, but I'm going to defer to the guy who's done this for 40+ years, won 1000+ games, and 5 national championships. He plays his best players as many minutes as they can handle. That's how he does it, and that's how he's done it for a long, long time. Who are we to doubt this man?

I'm sure if he sees something that tells him X player deserves more minutes, that player will get more minutes. His goal is always to put the 5 best guys to help us win on the floor at all times. There is no other agenda.

[Masterduff]

I made the comment during the 2nd half, I believe Frank should be subbing for Grayson because it was evident Grayson wasn't moving well enough to guard Mitchell. That's hard for me to say, because Grayson is my favorite player on this year's team. Frank has been coming on and played a good first half. So, I believe he would have been a better defender against Mitchell. GoDuke!

Grayson was hurt. As time ran out he was barely moving. That was a nasty sprain.
So is that 3 starters with one bad wheel now?

[bluedev_92]

[/FONT]

IF Harry is not able to produce with his talent at the present time, why did Coach K play Harry for ten consecutive minutes in the first half of the Clemson game(from 9:57 to the end of the first half)? Did Coach K forget Harry was in the game all that time? He must have been doing a good bit right in Coach K's eyes to stay in that long. Even though it wasn't Harry's best game to date, he did get 4 rebounds and block two shots. The multiple Clemson rim runs primarily occurred in the second half.

Good point...

[Indoor66]

I always wonder at amateurs questioning professionals about the Professional's field. I tend to trust the professional.

[Matches]

[/FONT]

IF Harry is not able to produce with his talent at the present time, why did Coach K play Harry for ten consecutive minutes in the first half of the Clemson game(from 9:57 to the end of the first half)?

Because Amile was in foul trouble.

Amile only played 29 minutes. His minutes were limited in the first half, leaving him fresher (more fresh?) in the 2nd. Would this board be as up in arms in Giles had played 5 minutes in each half, rather than 10 in the 1st and none in the 2nd? I just don't see much difference.

K's short benches can be frustrating at times (though not surprising - you'd think we'd all be used to it by now), but to me it's more frustrating when we beat a team by 17 and the starters all played 37-38 minutes - because then you think "well couldn't we have let Bolden/ Dawkins/ Pocius/ pickaguy get his feet wet for a few minutes?" I get that. But in what was literally a one-possession game, shouldn't we play the best players as much as humanly possible?

[Henderson]

I always wonder at amateurs questioning professionals about the Professional's field. I tend to trust the professional.

Oops, I think you just killed all of sports talk radio, most water-cooler discussions and dinner table discussions, and half the internet... including this site.

[gam7]

I always wonder at amateurs questioning professionals about the Professional's field. I tend to trust the professional.

You clearly did not live in San Francisco during the Jim Tomsula era.

[kAzE]

Oops, I think you just killed all of sports talk radio, most water-cooler discussions and dinner table discussions, and half the internet... including this site.

That's not really true . . . When it comes to Duke basketball, I just tend to focus my criticisms of the team on the performance of players, rather than coaching. Coach K is the G.O.A.T., and he knows what he's doing. Until he shows signs of decline, I'm not going to question his decisions. But that's because I'm a Duke fan, and he is Coach K. IMO, plenty of other coaches are fair game for criticism.

I would say only 4 coaches in all of major american sports deserve this treatment from their own team's fans: Krzyzewski, Belichick, Popovich, and Saban. That's it. For example, I would certainly not blame UNC fans for criticizing their coach for questionable coaching decisions.

[Devilwin]

I certainly do not want to second guess the greatest coach in the game. I merely think a few more minutes for Giles and Bolden can be a good thing. We've got a very tough end to the regular season, and need to be hitting on all cylinders. If Jayson and Amile both get into foul trouble early, then it would be great to put in a seasoned big player that knows the system in the game, rather than playing guards and expect them to cover 6'10" players. I am just looking at possible scenarios that could arise. And that Clemson game? We looked beat, and could have easily lost that game.
Everything I read about Giles and Bolden were they were both rim protectors. And we get beat constantly by guards driving the lane for layups. I want to see that ended, some way, somehow. We are far too easy to score on...

[bluedev_92]

Because Amile was in foul trouble.

Amile only played 29 minutes. His minutes were limited in the first half, leaving him fresher (more fresh?) in the 2nd. Would this board be as up in arms in Giles had played 5 minutes in each half, rather than 10 in the 1st and none in the 2nd? I just don't see much difference.

K's short benches can be frustrating at times (though not surprising - you'd think we'd all be used to it by now), but to me it's more frustrating when we beat a team by 17 and the starters all played 37-38 minutes - because then you think "well couldn't we have let Bolden/ Dawkins/ Pocius/ pickaguy get his feet wet for a few minutes?" I get that. But in what was literally a one-possession game, shouldn't we play the best players as much as humanly possible?

Who exactly is "up in arms"??

[Edouble]

I certainly do not want to second guess the greatest coach in the game. I merely think a few more minutes for Giles and Bolden can be a good thing. We've got a very tough end to the regular season, and need to be hitting on all cylinders. If Jayson and Amile both get into foul trouble early, then it would be great to put in a seasoned big player that knows the system in the game, rather than playing guards and expect them to cover 6'10" players. I am just looking at possible scenarios that could arise. And that Clemson game? We looked beat, and could have easily lost that game.
Everything I read about Giles and Bolden were they were both rim protectors. And we get beat constantly by guards driving the lane for layups. I want to see that ended, some way, somehow. We are far too easy to score on...

If the goal is still a National Championship, which Coach K said was the goal in the pre-season and I have no reason to believe is not still the goal for this group, then we will have to face a team better than Clemson as the second game in 48 hours in both the Regional Finals and on Monday Night (and possibly to reach the Sweet 16).

This group seemed to be fatigued at the end of the Clemson game, injuries not withstanding... even Luke missed the front end of a 1-and-1.

A few more bench minutes could prove to be helpful in this regard.

[Kedsy]

Everything I read about Giles and Bolden were they were both rim protectors.

That may have been true in high school. So far, college stats don't bear that out.


And we get beat constantly by guards driving the lane for layups. I want to see that ended, some way, somehow. We are far too easy to score on...

Stats say neither of these guys would be any better at "rim protection" than Amile, and much worse than Chase. Eye test says both Amile and Chase rotate better on guard penetration than either freshman big. So playing Harry or Marques more minutes wouldn't seem to alleviate your issue.

I get people's frustration on this topic -- personally, I'd rather see both Harry and Marques earn more playing time -- but I just think it's futile to complain about it.

I've also never been convinced that a few more minutes per game now will make these kids any better prepared if we need them a month from now. Does anyone really think playing Harry 15 mpg instead of the 12 mpg he's gotten so far would make any appreciable difference in how ready he'll be to contribute in March?

[OldPhiKap]

k is not infallible. K is not above criticism.

K has also won 1,000+ more games and five more national championships than anyone on this board.

Thus, although I do not always agree with K I recognize that he likely knows a bit more about the subject than I do. Due deference is therefore given.

[kAzE]

k is not infallible. K is not above criticism.

K has also won 1,000+ more games and five more national championships than anyone on this board.

Thus, although I do not always agree with K I recognize that he likely knows a bit more about the subject than I do. Due deference is therefore given.

Fair. I'm not dumb enough to think that he makes no mistakes. He's human. (I think).

But I also recognize the man's ability to make adjustments both in games and in practice that have made Duke arguably the #1 basketball program in the country, and unarguably the most successful program of the past 20 years. If there are changes that need to be made, I trust that he or one of the other coaches will make them.

If Marques and Harry aren't playing extended minutes, then they simply haven't earned them, or for some other reason, their presence on the floor doesn't give us the best possible chance to win. That doesn't mean they won't be important contributors later on, in the right match up. Grayson hardly played at all in 2014-15, until he did. I'll let the coaches figure that stuff out. It's their job to get the most out of their players.

[OldPhiKap]

Fair. I'm not dumb enough to think that he makes no mistakes. He's human. (I think).

But I recognize the man's ability to make adjustments both in games and in practice that have made Duke arguably the #1 basketball program in the country, and unarguably the most successful program of the past 20 years. If there are changes that need to be made, I trust that he or one of the other coaches will make them.

If Marques and Harry aren't playing extended minutes, then they simply haven't earned them, or for some reason, their presence on the floor doesn't give us the best possible chance to win. That doesn't mean they won't be important contributors later on. Grayson hardly played at all in 2015, until he did. I'll let the coaches figure that stuff out. It's their job to get the most out of their players.

Agreee 100%.

[Eakane]

I certainly do not want to second guess the greatest coach in the game. I merely think a few more minutes for Giles and Bolden can be a good thing. We've got a very tough end to the regular season, and need to be hitting on all cylinders. If Jayson and Amile both get into foul trouble early, then it would be great to put in a seasoned big player that knows the system in the game, rather than playing guards and expect them to cover 6'10" players. I am just looking at possible scenarios that could arise. And that Clemson game? We looked beat, and could have easily lost that game.
Everything I read about Giles and Bolden were they were both rim protectors. And we get beat constantly by guards driving the lane for layups. I want to see that ended, some way, somehow. We are far too easy to score on...

THIS. It is no secret that neither Giles nor Bolden have been what we all hoped they would be. If that's due to injury, then it's understandable, as would their behind behind the development curve. But for a team that looked as tired as we did on Saturday, especially in the second half, then it made no sense for them not to get some run, if for no other reason than to give Amile and Jayson a short breather. My concern isn't that they aren't healthy; it's more that they've looked lost, especially on defense. I still hold out hope to see one or both of them have a breakout game. Think back to Zoubs during February of his senior season; he was just not getting it and then one day, the light went on, and a few weeks later we won the NC.

[Kedsy]

Think back to Zoubs during February of his senior season; he was just not getting it and then one day, the light went on, and a few weeks later we won the NC.

In my opinion, this characterization is entirely inaccurate. Pretty much the only difference between senior Brian Zoubek pre-"breakout game" and senior Brian Zoubek post-"breakout game" was he played more minutes in the latter period. He "got it" all along and was playing great for 15 mpg before he entered the starting lineup against Maryland. It's possible that a light bulb went on and he suddenly knew how to get called for fewer fouls, but I doubt even that is true.

[jv001]

k is not infallible. K is not above criticism.

K has also won 1,000+ more games and five more national championships than anyone on this board.

Thus, although I do not always agree with K I recognize that he likely knows a bit more about the subject than I do. Due deference is therefore given.

I agree with this entire post. Coach K has for all most his entire career, cut his rotation down to 7 players. Maybe once or twice that number could have been 8 players. We may not always agree with him, but what can we do about it? NOTHING! I think it's time to move on to discussion of our next very important game with the Cavaliers. GoDuke!

[Eakane]

In my opinion, this characterization is entirely inaccurate. Pretty much the only difference between senior Brian Zoubek pre-"breakout game" and senior Brian Zoubek post-"breakout game" was he played more minutes in the latter period. He "got it" all along and was playing great for 15 mpg before he entered the starting lineup against Maryland. It's possible that a light bulb went on and he suddenly knew how to get called for fewer fouls, but I doubt even that is true.

He may have "gotten it" whatever that means, but was unable to apply it. Z figured out a way to help the team in a way he was not able to previously. It wasn't just the single game when he scored like never before (or after), and I'm surprised your opinion is so narrow on that point. His scoring in the Maryland game was an aberration. His ability to contribute with rebounding and kickouts to open shooters, and yes, to avoid foul trouble, was different. Use the Maryland game as a point of demarcation if you must, but recognize it was not about his scoring.

[BandAlum83]

That may have been true in high school. So far, college stats don't bear that out.



Stats say neither of these guys would be any better at "rim protection" than Amile, and much worse than Chase. Eye test says both Amile and Chase rotate better on guard penetration than either freshman big. So playing Harry or Marques more minutes wouldn't seem to alleviate your issue.

I get people's frustration on this topic -- personally, I'd rather see both Harry and Marques earn more playing time -- but I just think it's futile to complain about it.

I've also never been convinced that a few more minutes per game now will make these kids any better prepared if we need them a month from now. Does anyone really think playing Harry 15 mpg instead of the 12 mpg he's gotten so far would make any appreciable difference in how ready he'll be to contribute in March?

What did Grayson's minutes, by comparison, look like at this point in the 2015 season? How did his minutes trend through February and in the post season tournaments?

Seems to me, he was ready by the final.

As for this last game, doesn't K forge his primary rotation with steel through the pre-ACC season and make adjustments through the ACC schedule? Don't forget, he's probably at a mid-January stage just now between player absences and his own.

Sure, he could have played Harry in the second half, but forging the steel fist, even at the risk of an "L" just may have been more important to him.

Wouldn't many out here believe that a tremendous amount of team building and trust was gained throughout the Clemson 2nd half?

[jv001]

What did Grayson's minutes, by comparison, look like at this point in the 2015 season? How did his minutes trend through February and in the post season tournaments?
Seems to me, he was ready by the final.

As for this last game, doesn't K forge his primary rotation with steel through the pre-ACC season and make adjustments through the ACC schedule? Don't forget, he's probably at a mid-January stage just now between player absences and his own.

Sure, he could have played Harry in the second half, but forging the steel fist, even at the risk of an "L" just may have been more important to him.

Wouldn't many out here believe that a tremendous amount of team building and trust was gained throughout the Clemson 2nd half?

Grayson stepped in for Rasheed when he was dismissed from that team. I'm glad Grayson was ready because without him we don't win #5. GoDuke!

[Nugget]

What did Grayson's minutes, by comparison, look like at this point in the 2015 season? How did his minutes trend through February and in the post season tournaments?

Seems to me, he was ready by the final.

As for this last game, doesn't K forge his primary rotation with steel through the pre-ACC season and make adjustments through the ACC schedule? Don't forget, he's probably at a mid-January stage just now between player absences and his own.

Sure, he could have played Harry in the second half, but forging the steel fist, even at the risk of an "L" just may have been more important to him.

Wouldn't many out here believe that a tremendous amount of team building and trust was gained throughout the Clemson 2nd half?

As noted, Grayson's minutes in 2014-2015 varied significantly before/after Rasheed was dismissed. And, the post-Rasheed dismissal minutes were themselves bolstered by the fact that once the team got rolling in the second half of that year there were a number of blowouts (5 conference wins with margins over 20 points) that enabled Coach K to more "safely" expand the rotation. For example, I think if we hadn't handled the beginning of the second half against Clemson so badly and extended/maintained the lead, Coach K might have felt like he could rest Amile in favor of Giles or Bolden or Grayson or Matt Jones, in favor of Frank Jackson, a bit more.

Grayson Allen playing time 2014-2015

Pre-Rasheed Dismissal:
Mich St. - 1
Temple - 6
Stanford – DNP
Furman – 13
Army – 10
@ Wisconsin – DNP
Elon – 8
U.Conn – 2
Toledo – 3
Wofford – 4
BC – 6
Wake – 1
@ NC St. – 2
Miami – 8
@ Louisville - DNP
Pitt – 0
St. John’s – 3
@ Notre Dame – DNP

Avg. – 3.7 mpg.

Post-Rasheed Dismissal:
@ Virginia – 11
Ga Tech – 3
Notre Dame – 16 (in a 30 point blowout)
@ Fla St. – 11
@ Syracuse – 8
UNC – 4
Clemson – 18 (in a 22 point blowout)
Va Tech - 7
Syracuse - 8
Wake – 24 (in a 30 point blowout)
@ UNC - 11
NC St. – 21 (in a 24 point blowout)
Notre Dame – 11
Robert Morris – 12
San Diego St. -9
Utah – 9
Gonzaga – 3
Mich St. – 17 (in a 20 point blowout)
Wisc – 21

Avg. – 11.8 mpg,
Avg. – 8.2 in the 13 non-blowout games before the Wisconsin game

[arnie]

I always wonder at amateurs questioning professionals about the Professional's field. I tend to trust the professional.

You'd be the talk of Pack Pride if you posted the above line in defense of Gott.

[Kedsy]

He may have "gotten it" whatever that means, but was unable to apply it. Z figured out a way to help the team in a way he was not able to previously. It wasn't just the single game when he scored like never before (or after), and I'm surprised your opinion is so narrow on that point. His scoring in the Maryland game was an aberration. His ability to contribute with rebounding and kickouts to open shooters, and yes, to avoid foul trouble, was different. Use the Maryland game as a point of demarcation if you must, but recognize it was not about his scoring.

His rebounding percentages and per minute were pretty much the same, before and after. I believe the same is true for his assist rates, and pretty much all his other stats, too. Only thing that was significantly different before and after was his foul rate. I really don't think this was a light bulb moment.

[Spanarkel]

I always wonder at amateurs questioning professionals about the Professional's field. I tend to trust the professional.

Hope you weren't one of Bernie Madoff's clients. Lots of misplaced trust there. Isn't "amateurs questioning professionals" kind of what "working for the public" is all about?

[Indoor66]

Hope you weren't one of Bernie Madoff's clients. Lots of misplaced trust there. Isn't "amateurs questioning professionals" kind of what "working for the public" is all about?

Hard cases make bad law. My points stands.

[Lar77]

His rebounding percentages and per minute were pretty much the same, before and after. I believe the same is true for his assist rates, and pretty much all his other stats, too. Only thing that was significantly different before and after was his foul rate. I really don't think this was a light bulb moment.

Statistically, you are correct, but Z emerged as a force that day. Whether confidence, better positioning, or whatever, he was different after that and the team got better.

Kind of like Grayson's Wake game (Grayson's Winning!"). Before then, he was tentative. After that game, he was a weapon:cool:

[bluedev_92]

Oops, I think you just killed all of sports talk radio, most water-cooler discussions and dinner table discussions, and half the internet... including this site.

Agreed.
I don't believe there is anything wrong with discussing playing time. It's perfectly normal for fans to wonder about it and I enjoy reading the various responses/perspectives on the issue. To imply that it shouldn't be discussed, under the guise that Coach K is the GOAT doesn't seem right. Perhaps that's not what was meant & if so, then I took it out of context. Don't believe Coach, being the great leader that he is, would advocate that approach to discussion. Of course Coach gets the benefit of the doubt and I didn't really say much on the topic, so I have no axe to grind - just my two cents...

[Fish80]

Agreed.
I don't believe there is anything wrong with discussing playing time. It's perfectly normal for fans to wonder about it and I enjoy reading the various responses/perspectives on the issue. To imply that it shouldn't be discussed, under the guise that Coach K is the GOAT doesn't seem right. Perhaps that's not what was meant & if so, then I took it out of context. Don't believe Coach, being the great leader that he is, would advocate that approach to discussion. Of course Coach gets the benefit of the doubt and I didn't really say much on the topic, so I have no axe to grind - just my two cents...

I do have an axe to grind... I need a major shakeup in minutes to hit my projections for the year. I think I have Chase for ~20 per game.

[OldPhiKap]

Statistically, you are correct, but Z emerged as a force that day. Whether confidence, better positioning, or whatever, he was different after that and the team got better.

Kind of like Grayson's Wake game (Grayson's Winning!"). Before then, he was tentative. After that game, he was a weapon:cool:

This was (and is) my impression as well. I can't speak to the statistics but I know what I saw. Zoobs was maybe a bit quicker; a bit more precise in his positioning; a bit more detailed in his execution; a bit more passionate as his career reached its finale, whatever. He came alive in the Maryland game and was a force to be dealt with inside after that game. It's like he grew three inches or something and got a step quicker to the spot.

[vick]

This was (and is) my impression as well. I can't speak to the statistics but I know what I saw. Zoobs was maybe a bit quicker; a bit more precise in his positioning; a bit more detailed in his execution; a bit more passionate as his career reached its finale, whatever. He came alive in the Maryland game and was a force to be dealt with inside after that game. It's like he grew three inches or something and got a step quicker to the spot.

I basically agree with this. I think the Zoubek breakout is a bit exaggerated sometimes by fans who think that players might struggle for 3+ years and just "turn on the switch," whereas in fact he was an all-time great rebounder before and after the "switch." That said, from the Maryland game, his foul rate plummeted from 8.8 per 40 minutes to 6.0/40, and of course, that's against on-average better teams as it includes the ACC and NCAA tournaments. That's an important change in the ability to stay on the floor, and to have less time where you are forced to be tentative. So I think it's very fair to call it an important improvement, and it's also fair to not expect players to radically transform their basic talents for shooting, rebounding, etc. late in their careers.

[OldPhiKap]

I basically agree with this. I think the Zoubek breakout is a bit exaggerated sometimes by fans who think that players might struggle for 3+ years and just "turn on the switch," whereas in fact he was an all-time great rebounder before and after the "switch." That said, from the Maryland game, his foul rate plummeted from 8.8 per 40 minutes to 6.0/40, and of course, that's against on-average better teams as it includes the ACC and NCAA tournaments. That's an important change in the ability to stay on the floor, and to have less time where you are forced to be tentative. So I think it's very fair to call it an important improvement, and it's also fair to not expect players to radically transform their basic talents for shooting, rebounding, etc. late in their careers.

The only caveat I would make to this excellent post is: I do think that some seniors get a certain sense of urgency as the clock starts winding down on their careers and they find a gear they did not know they had. That's one of the things that makes the NCAA tournament so special for me.

[Eakane]

The only caveat I would make to this excellent post is: I do think that some seniors get a certain sense of urgency as the clock starts winding down on their careers and they find a gear they did not know they had. That's one of the things that makes the NCAA tournament so special for me.

Maybe Z was the wrong analogy for me to draw. I think one of the things that may be holding both Giles and Bolden back is the lack of a true point guard. Okafor, for instance, was doubly blessed because not only could he get his own shot, he had two point guards, one of whom (Tyus) was just a great interior passer, and could get him the ball in a position where Jah had the edge positionally over his defender. I think the three-headed monster has done a great job of not getting turned over, bringing the ball up, and starting the offense (and lately driving and dishing); but how much better would we be, and in particular Giles and Bolden, if we still had D. Thornton?

Can anybody think of a situation where a big struggled for a year or three, and came into his own when a PG arrived?

[CDu]

Maybe Z was the wrong analogy for me to draw. I think one of the things that may be holding both Giles and Bolden back is the lack of a true point guard. Okafor, for instance, was doubly blessed because not only could he get his own shot, he had two point guards, one of whom (Tyus) was just a great interior passer, and could get him the ball in a position where Jah had the edge positionally over his defender. I think the three-headed monster has done a great job of not getting turned over, bringing the ball up, and starting the offense (and lately driving and dishing); but how much better would we be, and in particular Giles and Bolden, if we still had D. Thornton?

Can anybody think of a situation where a big struggled for a year or three, and came into his own when a PG arrived?

Mason Plumlee struggled to score his first three years until Cook (as a soph) was able to get him going. Not a perfect analogy, as he also had Smith when he was a soph. But that is the idea at least. Of course, a lot of what made Plumlee great as a senior was that he really improved his post game and his FT shooting.

[OZ]

Maybe Z was the wrong analogy for me to draw.

I'm not sure if we have had a player, with whom, we can compare Giles and his situation. He came to Duke not having played in organized competition since the beginning of his senior year. He missed his sophomore year with an injury and was injured again in his first scrimmage game, of his senior year. That would mean, unlike his teammates, he didn't have the experience of his senior year, the scrimmage times during the summer, or the regular practice schedule of this year. He also has been rehabbing his knees since his sophomore year in high school. The player I have seen on the floor has shown brief glances of the player he used to be and the player he might some day become. But, he is no where near that player now. He is inexperienced at this level both physically and mentally. It is my opinion, that he is weakest on defense, because it is more difficult to learn and because of lack of leg strength. Too many times, I have watched big men move him out of the way. I don't know what his physical or emotional state might be; I don't know if his knees are acting up; but, what I do know is if he were able and capable, he would be playing.

[Indoor66]

I'm not sure if we have had a player, with whom, we can compare Giles and his situation. He came to Duke not having played in organized competition since the beginning of his senior year. He missed his sophomore year with an injury and was injured again in his first scrimmage game, of his senior year. That would mean, unlike his teammates, he didn't have the experience of his senior year, the scrimmage times during the summer, or the regular practice schedule of this year. He also has been rehabbing his knees since his sophomore year in high school. The player I have seen on the floor has shown brief glances of the player he used to be and the player he might some day become. But, he is no where near that player now. He is inexperienced at this level both physically and mentally. It is my opinion, that he is weakest on defense, because it is more difficult to learn and because of lack of leg strength. Too many times, I have watched big men move him out of the way. I don't know what his physical or emotional state might be; I don't know if his knees are acting up; but, what I do know is if he were able and capable, he would be playing.

But there has to be a pigeon hole. There is one for everyone around here. 😂😎