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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 64, Clemson 62 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
02-11-2017, 03:01 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

Ballboy1998
02-11-2017, 03:01 PM
Great use of our depth in the second half.

fuse
02-11-2017, 03:01 PM
Escaped. Whew!

subzero02
02-11-2017, 03:03 PM
Glad we got the win... let's get some rest. I'll chalk up our second half letdown to fatigue.

DukieInKansas
02-11-2017, 03:03 PM
Much closer than I would have liked but I'll take the W. Way to hang on, Devils.

WVDUKEFAN
02-11-2017, 03:03 PM
We were tired. It was evident

NM Duke Fan
02-11-2017, 03:05 PM
Hmmm ... a really difficult decision it will be as to who was player of the game for Duke. ;)

Survived a choppy second half, including some misses on the front end of one and ones. Fatigue showed with some, Jerfferson did a nice job of staying in the game. There are no easy ACC games.

NYBri
02-11-2017, 03:05 PM
Phew.

Free throws.

Not Jayson's finest.

Won with Grayson scoring 8 points.

Did I mention Phew?

jwillfan
02-11-2017, 03:06 PM
Wasn't fun to watch, but it's a win. Next play! Oh and Luke is my hero

kshepinthehouse
02-11-2017, 03:06 PM
Kind of reminded me of the NC State game. Wish we could have squeaked out a close win in that one too.

ChrisP
02-11-2017, 03:07 PM
Really disheartening but I'm not surprised. I am disheartened because I had hoped that this team might do what a truly great team would do after an emotional win over UNC on Thursday night - i.e. come out focused and play well. Instead, we kinda stunk it up (especially in the 2nd half). With Clemson's abysmal shooting in the 1st (5 made FG's - FIVE) we should have been up by about 20 points. Not so much.

Then, of course, fatigue set in in the 2nd and Clemson started playing much better and making those shots they'd been missing. And we went cold from three for a bit (which was foreseeable after the hot-shooting first half by Duke). Anyway, glad we won and obviously, Clemson, like Pitt, is a better team than their record would indicate. Congrats to them on a hard-fought game and for not hanging their heads. Let's hope Duke can get some rest and be better mentally and emotionally prepared for the next game.

fan345678
02-11-2017, 03:07 PM
Exactly what I expected when I first saw:

Thursday, Feb. 9, 8:00 PM- North Carolina
Saturday, Feb. 11, 1:00 PM- Clemson

Brockt10
02-11-2017, 03:07 PM
Avoided the trap. Get rest. Play again

Troublemaker
02-11-2017, 03:07 PM
Welp, our kenpom D-rank should tick up after this game. Otherwise...well, a win's a win.

Coach needed to go deeper in the 2nd half, imo. With a 36-hour turnaround after a UNC game, it's not a good idea to go Iron 5 in the second half of a game. Can't prove it, but if we had just injected Marques and Frank into the game for a 4-minute segment, we probably win by 10.

dukebluesincebirth
02-11-2017, 03:08 PM
This is Luke's world. We just living in it😀

SCMatt33
02-11-2017, 03:08 PM
Duke played a pretty terrible game. Clemson was just a little worse. The only thing we did well was hit threes in the first half. I can't ever remember a game where we fumbled handoffs, dribbled into turnovers, etc. on offense more. You could see the guys were drained as pretty much no one could be a man one on one on a drive. Like just made some great individual plays.

As bad as they looked though, Clemson helped out by missing so many makeable shots. The one thing I won't knock is the defensive effort. Like as much as Clemson got to the bucket at will in the second and got on the glass, I don't think it was for a lack of effort. Clemson is still a pretty decent team and when you're not going to play anyone bigger than 6'9" by choice in the second half, you're choosing to give up some rebounds. They made a good effort to get a lot of the ones they did and never give up one of those runs where a team scores on 10 or 12 or 14 straight possessions as we've seen in the past few years at times.

arnie
02-11-2017, 03:09 PM
Exactly what I expected when I first saw:

Thursday, Feb. 9, 8:00 PM- North Carolina
Saturday, Feb. 11, 1:00 PM- Clemson

Except that we should be deep. I see nothing wrong substituting Giles and Bolden a few minutes in 2nd halves when we are so tired.

CDu
02-11-2017, 03:09 PM
This one definitely reeked of fatigue (emotional and perhaps physical). Our defense was solid (and helped by Clemson) in the first half, but our guards' legs looked shot on that end in the second. Thankfully we held on.

Hope Allen's ankle is okay. He wasn't effective, and I think the quick turnaround plus the injury was the culprit.

Let's get some rest. Big game in four days.

We are currently in fourth in the conference (would stay there in UVa loses), with a chance to move up if we can win on Wednesday.

-jk
02-11-2017, 03:10 PM
A very physical game, with not too many fouls called.

I still miss flowy hoops!

-jk

Henderson
02-11-2017, 03:10 PM
Saturday in the ACC. That's what it's like. I do love it so.

lotusland
02-11-2017, 03:10 PM
Yay!
Yuck!

FerryFor50
02-11-2017, 03:11 PM
Win's a win. Should have won by double digits but the defense stunk in the 2nd. Recall that UNC only beat Clemson by 3.

Missed FTs on 1-1's hurt, as did stagnant ball movement on offense and lazy, uninspired defense.

Kinda stinks that Duke had to play in 3 days after UNC, but UNC gets nearly a week off.

subzero02
02-11-2017, 03:12 PM
Welp, our kenpom D-rank should tick up after this game. Otherwise...well, a win's a win.

Coach needed to go deeper in the 2nd half, imo. With a 36-hour turnaround after a UNC game, it's not a good idea to go Iron 5 in the second half of a game. Can't prove it, but if we had just injected Marques and Frank into the game for a 4-minute segment, we probably win by 10.

Frank was definitely on the floor some in the second half... I am not sure how long though.

FerryFor50
02-11-2017, 03:13 PM
I will say that Duke gutted out some solid defense on Clemnson's last 12 seconds.

fidel
02-11-2017, 03:13 PM
Lets Go Luke!
Lets Go Luke!

wsb3
02-11-2017, 03:14 PM
I expected a hangover..slow start, but I thought we would recover & win by 10. We had so many chances to put the game away much like the State game & we are most fortunate that it did not end up like the State game..

Whew... Just glad to escape with a win. A very ugly win but still a win..I look forward to Coach K's presser.. I did some lip reading at one point..Grab the ___________ ball..

Fairness to Grayson you could tell his ankle was bothering him. He was not full speed.

jipops
02-11-2017, 03:14 PM
Luke Kennard, best player in the ACC. And it's not even close.

That was ugly, as expected. Every ACC win is huge. Savor this one despite the ugliness.

I really do wish we made the effort to get Harry involved more. Twice he had space in the post and we didn't give it to him. I know he's not at all what he was and never will be anywhere close to it while at Duke, but it would be nice to add another dimension to this team i.e. someone in the paint besides Amile.

MrPoon
02-11-2017, 03:14 PM
It's a W, but it was also just about everything I feared about this game. Clemson played on Tuesday and those two extra days seemed to matter.

No rest for starters, poor execution on simple straight line D, Tatum didn't assert himself. Playing at their tempo rather than our own. Take a lead and didn't build on it. This team is good, it is moving in the right direction but there are times the steps feel very small. Short turn around against a dangous team, no doubt. But the team we need to be pushes through that especially at home.

I just keep hoping to use Giles and Bolden in ways where we can trust them as the games get more meaningful. That dreams appears to be a fleeting one.

Survive and advance. With Louisville down at home to Miami and Syracuse already losing, this could still be a very positive week!

CDu
02-11-2017, 03:15 PM
Frank was definitely on the floor some in the second half... I am not sure how long though.

Jackson played several minutes in the second half. Giles played briefly too.

Saratoga2
02-11-2017, 03:15 PM
We did look tired, especially in the second half. Maybe some of Grayson's loss of effectiveness was due to the early rolling of his ankle or just tiredness. Our defense was compromised in the second half with Jefferson in foul trouble. I noted earlier in the game that Giles gave some good minutes defensively. He forced altered shots and he got some rebounds.

The decision was made to run the offense through Kennard and he again showed what he can do.

We will need to get some rest and prepare for the next opponent. Nothing will come easily in theACC

jacone21
02-11-2017, 03:16 PM
Starters were obviously gassed, but at least the other guys are well rested. That's our K though. Teaching them to play tired. Sometimes it pays off in the Spring. Sometimes it doesn't. Well see what happens.

Coballs
02-11-2017, 03:21 PM
Two thoughts on this game:

-We nearly lost to an inferior opponent because our team was gassed while Coach K refused to use his bench in the second half.

-The quick turnaround is something this team may very likely see again in March. They need to be ready for it next time.

MrPoon
02-11-2017, 03:22 PM
Starters were obviously gassed, but at least the other guys are well rested. That's our K though. Teaching them to play tired. Sometimes it pays off in the Spring. Sometimes it doesn't. Well see what happens.

Agreed. The shallow bench has bitten us a few times. K talked about the turnaround being a lot like the tournament. That doesn't feel great. I guess if it was the tournament, Clemson wouldn't have two extra days of rest and prep.

Karl Beem
02-11-2017, 03:24 PM
Starters were obviously gassed, but at least the other guys are well rested. That's our K though. Teaching them to play tired. Sometimes it pays off in the Spring. Sometimes it doesn't. Well see what happens.

Yes. It's simply unbelievable the we don't play quality subs when the starters are gassed. Giles had 4rbs and 2 blocks in his short spell. Luke won the game.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-11-2017, 03:28 PM
Win's a win. Should have won by double digits but the defense stunk in the 2nd. Recall that UNC only beat Clemson by 3.

Missed FTs on 1-1's hurt, as did stagnant ball movement on offense and lazy, uninspired defense.

Kinda stinks that Duke had to play in 3 days after UNC, but UNC gets nearly a week off.

Picking a nit, but it was closer to a day and a half than to three days.

A win is a win. We ought to take nothing for granted this year.

slower
02-11-2017, 03:30 PM
Recall that UNC only beat Clemson by 3.


Although, that was AT Clemson.

BandAlum83
02-11-2017, 03:31 PM
Great use of our depth in the second half.

Ineffective use of sarcasm in post game thread's first post.

<whistle>

Foul on the play.

dukelifer
02-11-2017, 03:38 PM
Win's a win. Should have won by double digits but the defense stunk in the 2nd. Recall that UNC only beat Clemson by 3.

Missed FTs on 1-1's hurt, as did stagnant ball movement on offense and lazy, uninspired defense.

Kinda stinks that Duke had to play in 3 days after UNC, but UNC gets nearly a week off.

Clemson will make you play ugly and they have lost a bunch of close games. Emotional game on Thursday - guys lost focus after getting the big lead.

Devilwin
02-11-2017, 03:40 PM
They did look tired. Especially after the big UNC win, could be emotional too. I agree with others the bench should see some time in these games. We got McDonald's All Americans sitting on the bench, and they ain't getting no better just sitting there. Now I will go polish my 5 National Championship trophies that I don't have because I obviously know more than K.

Ballboy1998
02-11-2017, 03:46 PM
Ineffective use of sarcasm in post game thread's first post.

<whistle>

Foul on the play.

It was about the nicest way I could put it. I generally don't complain about K's short bench, as I've come to terms with it and it obviously works for him more often than not.

But in a game where I thought the bench gave good minutes in the first half -- Jackson, Giles, and Bolden all gave quality minutes -- and the starters looked like dead men walking in the second half, it seemed like a misstep not to use a bit more depth. Grayson was clearly limited, whether by fatigue, his ankle, or some combination of the two, and I am really hoping this ankle tweak doesn't derail the momentum he gathered over the last few games.

Other than being worried about Grayson's ankle, I don't take much negative away from the game. Duke was clearly and unsurprisingly drained, and the ACC this year is all about just trying to grind out wins. I know scheduling isn't easy, but making Duke play on a less than 48hr turnaround against an opponent who had four days off is weak scheduling.

Doria
02-11-2017, 03:53 PM
Ugly win, but they all look the same in the W-L column. Actually, thought it was great that as gassed as we clearly were late, we held on and won. Not sure we'd have done that at some points in the conference season. It's a valuable skill, too.

Henderson
02-11-2017, 04:01 PM
Ugly win, but they all look the same in the W-L column. Actually, thought it was great that as gassed as we clearly were late, we held on and won. Not sure we'd have done that at some points in the conference season. It's a valuable skill, too.

I think I either don't understand or agree with others' use of the term "ugly win." Do they not watch the game? Do they not find beauty in the game? Is any game that doesn't beat the point spread ugly? How was this an "ugly" win?

Is that how you'd describe it to one of the players? "Hey Luke. Ugly win. Try to make it pretty, ok? Winning isn't good enough. I want pretty, ok?"

BD80
02-11-2017, 04:07 PM
Two thoughts on this game:

-We nearly lost to an inferior opponent because our team was gassed while Coach K refused to use his bench in the second half.

-The quick turnaround is something this team may very likely see again in March. They need to be ready for it next time.

That is EXACTLY why Coach K stayed with his short bench!

In the tournament, a one loss elimination format, Coach K plays his best players as much as possible. This game was great preparation for the tournament, particularly for Luke and Jayson. Now they have done it and will know what to expect in March and April.

camion
02-11-2017, 04:15 PM
This is exactly the type of game I expected with A SHORT TURNAROUND AFTER THE BIGGEST GAME SO FAR THIS YEAR. If I were paranoid I would blame the ACC commissioner's office for that scheduling. But I'm not paranoid, merely cynical.

We were tired physically and emotionally, but we won and I'm happy. :)


On to the next tough game. There aren't many easy ones this year.

jv001
02-11-2017, 04:16 PM
I may be wrong about this, but here goes anyway. I believe for Duke to be a FF team, one of Giles/Bolden will have to play at least 10-12 minutes. I'm hoping that one of them will improve enough that Coach K will be forced to play him. I just don't believe our ceiling is that great without one of them stepping up. I'm not sure Harry trusts his knees enough to play with confidence and play tough hard nosed basketball. If that's true, I hope Marques gets himself ready mentally to get the job. I am liking that Coach is trusting Frank and getting him minutes. In my eye, he's the best ball handler we have and a pretty good on the ball defender. GoDuke!

NYBri
02-11-2017, 04:17 PM
Ineffective use of sarcasm in post game thread's first post.

<whistle>

Foul on the play.

I liked it, but what do I know? :cool:

Henderson
02-11-2017, 04:18 PM
We nearly lost

I'd like to nearly lose every remaining game. Then we can nearly gnash our teeth about how we nearly lost the natty.

alteran
02-11-2017, 04:18 PM
This is exactly the type of game I expected with A SHORT TURNAROUND AFTER THE BIGGEST GAME SO FAR THIS YEAR. If I were paranoid I would blame the ACC commissioner's office for that scheduling. But I'm not paranoid, merely cynical.

We were tired physically and emotionally, but we won and I'm happy. :)


On to the next tough game. There aren't many easy ones this year.

I have no doubt that the scheduling is highly determined by K. He has said repeatedly that he likes to schedule a few tight turnaround games to simulate the tourney. (And he wants his starters to learn to play through fatigue.)

wsb3
02-11-2017, 04:26 PM
I may be wrong about this, but here goes anyway. I believe for Duke to be a FF team, one of Giles/Bolden will have to play at least 10-12 minutes. I'm hoping that one of them will improve enough that Coach K will be forced to play him. I just don't believe our ceiling is that great without one of them stepping up. I'm not sure Harry trusts his knees enough to play with confidence and play tough hard nosed basketball. If that's true, I hope Marques gets himself ready mentally to get the job. I am liking that Coach is trusting Frank and getting him minutes. In my eye, he's the best ball handler we have and a pretty good on the ball defender. GoDuke!

For what it is worth I don't think you are wrong. We have to be able to trust one or both of them for quality minutes to make a deep run. Amile is terrific but undersized in many of his matchups & he will get in foul trouble. Just like today. We will need their size & hopefully one or both will break out on the offensive end..

Kedsy
02-11-2017, 04:34 PM
I believe for Duke to be a FF team, one of Giles/Bolden will have to play at least 10-12 minutes.

Well... Harry played 10 minutes today.

BluDvlsN1
02-11-2017, 04:34 PM
That is EXACTLY why Coach K stayed with his short bench!

In the tournament, a one loss elimination format, Coach K plays his best players as much as possible. This game was great preparation for the tournament, particularly for Luke and Jayson. Now they have done it and will know what to expect in March and April.

Can't spork you again, I agree completely, K's always looking for and finding teaching moments
and with our youth, he can't pass them up.

DrChainsaw
02-11-2017, 04:35 PM
Picking a nit, but it was closer to a day and a half than to three days.

A win is a win. We ought to take nothing for granted this year.

A big and worthy nit to pick.

DukieInBrasil
02-11-2017, 04:46 PM
i didnt watch the game, but i gotta say, i was hoping for a stronger showing from the team today. Like building on the success from Thursday, but that didn't happen. We got the win, and that's good, as far as that goes.

KandG
02-11-2017, 04:47 PM
Oof, that was tough to watch in the second half, feeling Duke was the better team but trying to win while running on fumes.

Thought the first half was an outstanding continuation of the closing minutes of Thursday night, when we held UNC to 8 points in the final 7 minutes. Mostly good defense at the point of attack and in transition (areas we've struggled with all season), though Clemson did get a number of good looks that they just bricked on.

It's pretty clear that while Luke might be our best player this season and Tatum the most skilled and athletic, the team really needs Grayson to be at his best to hit that next level. Think the ankle sprain, the exhaustion, and maybe a little bit of exhaling after the euphoria of Thursday night meant he was ineffective for most of today, especially in the 2nd half. He doesn't need to score a ton, but he needs to be active -- four assists in the first half, only one in the second, and the stagnation in our second half offense showed it.

Duke had 11 of its 13 assists in the first 26:20, only 2 in the final 13:40 (both of which led to 3 pointers). A lot of one on one as Luke tried to single handedly take us to the finish line, and I can't blame him in a way given how the rest of the guys seemed to stop moving. In fairness, starting with Matt's very short missed corner 3 to start the second half, the team's legs really looked shot. Fortunately, we got to the free throw line toward the end and (let's be honest) also got a couple of favorable calls.

Credit to Brownell for that 1-3-1 zone trap look that threw us off as we seemed to be breaking away in the final two minutes. This was the kind of game that I wish we had used a zone for selective possessions to break up their rhythm and keep their straight line drives from killing us.

As others pointed out, the second half felt a lot like the NC State game, where we couldn't seem to hold off a team just rolling downhill on us. Probably the sign of a young team lacking continuity and playing in such a tough conference with no giveaway games, but the second half runs we've given up are interesting:

23-8 run by Clemson to turn 36-22 deficit to 45-44 lead (16:55 to 10:10)
18-6 run by UNC to turn 53-46 deficit to 64-59 lead (16:12 to 11:16)
12-0 run by ND to turn 63-60 lead to 63-62 lead (9:36 to 6:28)
18-9 run by WF to turn 63-62 lead to 81-71 lead (8:54 to 4:01)
20-5 run by NC State to turn 68-59 deficit to 79-73 lead (6:52 to 1:30)
16-4 run by FL State to turn 50-48 deficit to 64-54 lead (15:03 to 9:13)

The good news is, we recovered from the last four of those to win all those games, and in all honesty probably should have won the NC State game as well given how they were trying to give it away at the end. So we clearly have the talent (especially the offense) and coaching to bounce back and pull out games against good teams. But I wondered before the game why comfortable wins are so rare (outside of an anomalous pasting of Georgia Tech), and it's clear we have 4 to 6 minute letdowns that are part mental, part foul-induced, part inconsistent defense, and part simple growing pains.

But as K said after the game, the team keeps growing. As the season continues, I'd love to see more minutes for the other big guys and to see Jayson and Frank and Harry continue to evolve and cut down on the mistakes so that we can start to visualize that upside so many forecast for us at the start of the season. In the meantime, get some rest guys: you deserve it, and the schedule doesn't get any easier.

FadedTackyShirt
02-11-2017, 04:49 PM
That is EXACTLY why Coach K stayed with his short bench!

In the tournament, a one loss elimination format, Coach K plays his best players as much as possible. This game was great preparation for the tournament, particularly for Luke and Jayson. Now they have done it and will know what to expect in March and April.

Team's back on the usual timetable: shorten the rotation for three weeks in February and lengthen it slightly going into March/ACC Tournament.

Barring injury, K's going with a 7 man rotation in the Dance. Bolden's the odd man out.

Nearly blowing a 13 point lead is problematic, but this game was the mirror image of the NCSU game. Clemson doesn't have a Dennis Smith, but K would have still found a way to beat NC State.

Team lacks a killer instinct and plays up or down to their opponent too much. Could spell disaster in the early rounds. UVa on the road will be a big test.

Olympic Fan
02-11-2017, 04:54 PM
I have no doubt that the scheduling is highly determined by K. He has said repeatedly that he likes to schedule a few tight turnaround games to simulate the tourney. (And he wants his starters to learn to play through fatigue.)

I think you are 100 percent wrong.

K has almost total control of Duke's non-conference schedule, but the ACC schedule is handed down from the Greensboro office with little or no input from the coaches.

K has spoken in the past for his distaste for quick turnaround games, especially with the other team has as longer preparation period.

Ultrarunner
02-11-2017, 04:55 PM
I may be wrong about this, but here goes anyway. I believe for Duke to be a FF team, one of Giles/Bolden will have to play at least 10-12 minutes. I'm hoping that one of them will improve enough that Coach K will be forced to play him. I just don't believe our ceiling is that great without one of them stepping up. I'm not sure Harry trusts his knees enough to play with confidence and play tough hard nosed basketball. If that's true, I hope Marques gets himself ready mentally to get the job. I am liking that Coach is trusting Frank and getting him minutes. In my eye, he's the best ball handler we have and a pretty good on the ball defender. GoDuke!

Giles played 10 minutes today, fyi. Frank, 14.

KandG
02-11-2017, 05:13 PM
K has almost total control of Duke's non-conference schedule, but the ACC schedule is handed down from the Greensboro office with little or no input from the coaches.

K has spoken in the past for his distaste for quick turnaround games, especially with the other team has as longer preparation period.

This is correct. I think K generally doesn't have issues with non-conference tournaments where the games are played on consecutive days or have short turnarounds between games: in those situations, he can train the team on playing through fatigue and simulating NCAA tournament conditions. And most importantly, the opponents face the same situation in terms of preparation time and rest.

But I get the sense the unbalanced conference schedule and these short turnaround games where an opponent has more rest and preparation time drive him crazy.

OZ
02-11-2017, 05:30 PM
What an incredible gutty performance by Luke. With everyone else dragging, he took over.

Matty always seems to come through with key defensive plays.

It was a win.

jwillfan
02-11-2017, 05:30 PM
I'd like to nearly lose every remaining game. Then we can nearly gnash our teeth about how we nearly lost the natty.

I :heart: this post!

MrPoon
02-11-2017, 05:33 PM
The good news I guess is that it all balances out. Virginia plays Sunday so they will have one less day of rest and prep.

Not to look forward too much but the Clemson game was a clear trap and Clemson's MO has been very close games against quality opponents. Too bad they spent all their mojo against Alabama! But I am really looking forward to UVA. The UNC game was the most important test so far for a developing team. Passed it. The road game against a quality, difficult opponent is the next test. I really like our chances because of the shot making ability of our "big three" but that will be a big test. Pass that and we can start talking in more hushed voices ....

jipops
02-11-2017, 05:34 PM
There was a feeling after the State game that maybe Capel wasn't going to be the right guy to succeed K. After the way Capel finished in K's absence and yet another tough game against a lesser opponent at home, but with K,...that feeling should exist no longer. Fatigue was the obvious and predictable factor today, but this team is still coming together and figuring out how to compensate for its weaknesses.

Spanarkel
02-11-2017, 05:39 PM
Jackson played several minutes in the second half. Giles played briefly too.


Giles played from 9:57 of the first half until the end of the first half, and was credited with 10 minutes for the entire game. If Giles played in the second half, it was so brief as to escape the detection of the official Duke play-by-play record(see goduke.com).

devildeac
02-11-2017, 05:59 PM
1a)
1b)
1K)

I'd obviously much, much prefer a 64-62 than a 62-64, but my word, that 2nd half defense was painful to watch.

-jk
02-11-2017, 06:18 PM
This is correct. I think K generally doesn't have issues with non-conference tournaments where the games are played on consecutive days or have short turnarounds between games: in those situations, he can train the team on playing through fatigue and simulating NCAA tournament conditions. And most importantly, the opponents face the same situation in terms of preparation time and rest.

But I get the sense the unbalanced conference schedule and these short turnaround games where an opponent has more rest and preparation time drive him crazy.

I rather suspect teaching how to play through fatigue comes from his Army training: sometimes you just have to gut through it. Regardless of whatever "it" may be, "it" happens, you "deal". Or go home...

He always brings that mentality to the team, and it usually works.

-jk

BandAlum83
02-11-2017, 06:32 PM
The good news I guess is that it all balances out. Virginia plays Sunday so they will have one less day of rest and prep.

Not to look forward too much but the Clemson game was a clear trap and Clemson's MO has been very close games against quality opponents. Too bad they spent all their mojo against Alabama! But I am really looking forward to UVA. The UNC game was the most important test so far for a developing team. Passed it. The road game against a quality, difficult opponent is the next test. I really like our chances because of the shot making ability of our "big three" but that will be a big test. Pass that and we can start talking in more hushed voices ...

The road win against a quality ND team was the first midterm test, and we aced it!

UVA will be our second midterm. UNC will be the final. :)

AFL
02-11-2017, 06:44 PM
Great use of our depth in the second half.

I totally agree with you.

AFL
02-11-2017, 06:48 PM
I may be wrong about this, but here goes anyway. I believe for Duke to be a FF team, one of Giles/Bolden will have to play at least 10-12 minutes. I'm hoping that one of them will improve enough that Coach K will be forced to play him. I just don't believe our ceiling is that great without one of them stepping up. I'm not sure Harry trusts his knees enough to play with confidence and play tough hard nosed basketball. If that's true, I hope Marques gets himself ready mentally to get the job. I am liking that Coach is trusting Frank and getting him minutes. In my eye, he's the best ball handler we have and a pretty good on the ball defender. GoDuke!

I have been very impressed with Frank Jackson this season. He has exceeded my expectations.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-11-2017, 06:49 PM
The road win against a quality ND team was the first midterm test, and we aced it!

UVA will be our second midterm. UNC will be the final. :)

UNC players do not understand your metaphor.

AFL
02-11-2017, 06:50 PM
Luke Kennard, best player in the ACC. And it's not even close.

That was ugly, as expected. Every ACC win is huge. Savor this one despite the ugliness.

I really do wish we made the effort to get Harry involved more. Twice he had space in the post and we didn't give it to him. I know he's not at all what he was and never will be anywhere close to it while at Duke, but it would be nice to add another dimension to this team i.e. someone in the paint besides Amile.

Duke's lack of a true point guard is really hurting Harry Giles. He can absolutely finish in the paint, but no one is getting him the ball in the post. His lack of production is not totally his fault.

azzefkram
02-11-2017, 07:01 PM
A win is a win but I can't help but feel a tad disheartened about this one.

CDu
02-11-2017, 07:07 PM
A win is a win but I can't help but feel a tad disheartened about this one.

I wouldn't. We were coming off a very hard-fought and emotionally draining win just 40 hours prior. The tanks were likely running low. And on top of that, Allen got hurt early in the game, and it appeared to affect his performance.

Also, Clemson is s top-50 team. They have talent. They have played the 6th toughest schedule in the nation, which has hurt their record. But they are a very solid team.

moonpie23
02-11-2017, 07:09 PM
helloooooo......just got off work....did not get to see one second of the game..


i watched the espn highlight and saw the last play....how did we NOT get called for a foul on that??? matt was amazing..


thank goodness for luke!!

a win is a win....i'll take it...

gofurman
02-11-2017, 07:20 PM
We were tired. It was evident

Credit to Clemson. Lost to Unc in.OT. lost to us by 2. Lost to Notre Dame by 4 and Syracuse by 1. Just heartbreaking. Beat Pitt on road. Beat GT and .. Wake on road.

That said this was a lot about Duke surviving a 40 hour turn. From 8 pm Thursday to 1 pm Saturday is silly. At least give us the evening game or Sunday. Our Second half it showed. I thought K pulling Kennard after Luke missed some free throws said a lot. They were tired. Tatum taking that three scared me w tired legs but he hit it.

Great D by our guys at times. Also liked the apparent 'walk the ball up the court' theory to save tired legs. Only other note is I thought Tatum was a little hesitant - we need those unstoppable drives that he can provide. Not sure if he was tired or defended well but I didn't see many of the aggressive moves he can provide

mgtr
02-11-2017, 07:32 PM
A win is a win is a win, but it felt like a loss to me. Glad that it counts as a win, and I hope that our players learned something today.

Pghdukie
02-11-2017, 07:42 PM
I have been quoted in theses threads as saying I did not see much team unity. My opinion was that I seen too much individual play instead of TEAM PLAY. I have seen, and acknowledge, that I've seen this TEAM grow leaps and bounds in the last few weeks.

MChambers
02-11-2017, 07:49 PM
Duke's lack of a true point guard is really hurting Harry Giles. He can absolutely finish in the paint, but no one is getting him the ball in the post. His lack of production is not totally his fault.
Harry's weak defense is hurting him more than anything. All the time not playing, and missing the preseason practice time, have left him way behind on defense. If he played better D, he'd get more minutes, and he'd get more touches and his teammates would look for him more.

Seems like a great kid, and I'm rooting for him in a big way, but he's just not fully back yet. If Bobby Hurley walked through that door, Harry wouldn't get any more minutes.

Saratoga2
02-11-2017, 08:08 PM
Harry's weak defense is hurting him more than anything. All the time not playing, and missing the preseason practice time, have left him way behind on defense. If he played better D, he'd get more minutes, and he'd get more touches and his teammates would look for him more.

Seems like a great kid, and I'm rooting for him in a big way, but he's just not fully back yet. If Bobby Hurley walked through that door, Harry wouldn't get any more minutes.

Harry played primarily in the first half and early on I noted a number of shots he altered and rebounds he got. i think talking about his weak defense is doing him a disservice for those times he is really making his presence felt defensively.

Troublemaker
02-11-2017, 08:15 PM
A win is a win is a win, but it felt like a loss to me. Glad that it counts as a win, and I hope that our players learned something today.

There was no lesson to be learned today. The players left it all on the court. Proud of them. They just needed some reinforcements in the 2nd half, which never came.

There was no letdown, just massive fatigue.

BandAlum83
02-11-2017, 08:19 PM
UNC players do not understand your metaphor.

They would also have a hard time using a computer to read fan boards, so I don't think they would even see this.

They probably only use computers and Google for the images and videos. (make of that what you will)

BlueDevilWildcat
02-11-2017, 08:21 PM
It's hard to make the argument that it's smarter in the short- or long-term to play gassed starters @ 60% than a fresh bench @ 100%. To the few folks to whom the argument does make sense, the performance on the court disproved it. While I don't have 5 titles, I do have common sense and a pair of eyes.

Neals384
02-11-2017, 08:38 PM
Welp, our kenpom D-rank should tick up after this game. Otherwise...well, a win's a win.

Coach needed to go deeper in the 2nd half, imo. With a 36-hour turnaround after a UNC game, it's not a good idea to go Iron 5 in the second half of a game. Can't prove it, but if we had just injected Marques and Frank into the game for a 4-minute segment, we probably win by 10.

this.


Except that we should be deep. I see nothing wrong substituting Giles and Bolden a few minutes in 2nd halves when we are so tired.

and this.


Two thoughts on this game:

-We nearly lost to an inferior opponent because our team was gassed while Coach K refused to use his bench in the second half.


and this


Yes. It's simply unbelievable the we don't play quality subs when the starters are gassed. Giles had 4rbs and 2 blocks in his short spell. Luke won the game.

and this


It was about the nicest way I could put it. I generally don't complain about K's short bench, as I've come to terms with it and it obviously works for him more often than not.

But in a game where I thought the bench gave good minutes in the first half -- Jackson, Giles, and Bolden all gave quality minutes -- and the starters looked like dead men walking in the second half, it seemed like a misstep not to use a bit more depth. Grayson was clearly limited, whether by fatigue, his ankle, or some combination of the two, and I am really hoping this ankle tweak doesn't derail the momentum he gathered over the last few games.


and this

Jefferson was -10 for the game. Giles +7 and Bolden +5. We got killed in the paint int he 2nd half. K is the coach and it's up to him to choose who plays (duh), but I take it as a very big negative that he doesn't trust Giles and Bolden enough to give Jefferson a 2nd half breather.

SFDukie
02-11-2017, 08:55 PM
this.



and this.



and this



and this



and this

Jefferson was -10 for the game. Giles +7 and Bolden +5. We got killed in the paint int he 2nd half. K is the coach and it's up to him to choose who plays (duh), but I take it as a very big negative that he doesn't trust Giles and Bolden enough to give Jefferson a 2nd half breather.

I am in the camp that is frustrated that quality subs were on the bench while the starting five was playing fatigued. Over the years we have gotten used to it, but that was when there wasn't as much talent on the bench. But I'll take the win!

dukelifer
02-11-2017, 08:56 PM
It's hard to make the argument that it's smarter in the short- or long-term to play gassed starters @ 60% than a fresh bench @ 100%. To the few folks to whom the argument does make sense, the performance on the court disproved it. While I don't have 5 titles, I do have common sense and a pair of eyes.

K coaches by feel. Doesn't always make sense until he gets the win.

Olympic Fan
02-11-2017, 09:34 PM
Re-watching after I got home, I saw one officiating situation that I don't understand.

In the first half, Jaron Blossomgame put up a shot that ticked the rim, but the shot cock didn't reset. Clemson rebounded, but Grantham ended forcing a bad shot just before the buzzer that Duke rebounded.

Then they went to timeout and the refs went to the monitor. After the timeout, they gave the ball to Clemson with 19 seconds left on the shot clock.

Okay, two things -- one that has me confused and one that I know was wrong.

Can the refs go back and reset the game, even after play continued and Clemson gave up the ball? Didn't we recently have a game decided when a shot clock malfunction cost the trailing team a chance at the game-winning shot? The refs acknowledged the error, but explained that since play continued before the violation was discovered, the trailing team was out of luck.

So how does Clemson get the ball back -- even after the shot clock mistake caused a rushed shot that shouldn't have been rushed?

And even if resetting the game at the point where Blossomgame's shot hit the run (with 10 seconds on the shot clock) how did they decide that Clemson gets 19 seconds on the shot clock?

This situation had absolutely no impact on the game, but I'm still confused by the handling.

PS I haven't read the whole thread, but has anybody acknowledged Matt Jones' second strong defensive performance in a row? Two days after slowing Justin Jackson (Roy mentioned his defense Thursday night, K mentioned it today), he holds Blossomgame to his worst offensive game of the season.

91_92_01_10_15
02-11-2017, 09:39 PM
PS I haven't read the whole thread, but has anybody acknowledged Matt Jones' second strong defensive performance in a row? Two days after slowing Justin Jackson (Roy mentioned his defense Thursday night, K mentioned it today), he holds Blossomgame to his worst offensive game of the season.

Just watched the Coach K post-game presser, and he did.

sagegrouse
02-11-2017, 09:48 PM
Clemson scored 18 in the first half. Yeah, the Tigers couldn't make a thing.

Then scored 44 in the second half. There's gotta be a defensive component in the difference.

NM Duke Fan
02-11-2017, 09:58 PM
Clemson scored 18 in the first half. Yeah, the Tigers couldn't make a thing.

Then scored 44 in the second half. There's gotta be a defensive component in the difference.

A major part of tenacious D is simply hard work. Like a certain coach says: "Just do your Job!" I always loved playing defense, it takes a lot of energy to hustle and communicate. And if there was one essence missing in the second half it was energy. As has been noted, some games you just have to keep slogging through the fatigue in the heat of the battle.

What does strike me is the fatigue. I know when I would play in church league tournaments in my early twenties, I would have to play 3 games in 3 days, rarely being subbed. Full court, full length games. Can't remember ever being very fatigued. Must have been all that organic food from my garden or something ... fatigue and injuries both seem greater these days at times to me in college ball, maybe I am just being subjective!

Rich
02-11-2017, 10:12 PM
What does strike me is the fatigue. I know when I would play in church league tournaments in my early twenties, I would have to play 3 games in 3 days, rarely being subbed. Full court, full length games. Can't remember ever being very fatigued. Must have been all that organic food from my garden or something ... fatigue and injuries both seem greater these days at times to me in college ball, maybe I am just being subjective!

Pretty sure when Coach K talks about fatigue, it's mostly the mental fatigue that comes from playing a tense, emotionally draining game, in a charged arena, against a high quality opponent, where every possession is significant. I doubt you have that experience in your church league.

jv001
02-11-2017, 10:16 PM
Well... Harry played 10 minutes today.

I'm raising my minutes for Harry and Marques to 25 between the two. :cool: Especially after looking at Neals +/-. GoDuke!

BlueDevilWildcat
02-11-2017, 10:32 PM
K coaches by feel. Doesn't always make sense until he gets the win.
Well I can't imagine a business environment where 'feel' would be an acceptable approach to management. As for the 'win', should a business accept 1% growth when its potential was much more? I think this 2-point win should be unacceptable to all of us, including the staff, and that the solution is to use one of our strengths - serious depth.

jv001
02-11-2017, 10:33 PM
Two things that come to mind.
1) As I said in the MOTM Thread, Matt Jones just turned in 2 games in a row with great defense. The man is so tough and smart. He's not the fastest or jumps the highest, but he sure is one valuable player for the good guys.
2) It seemed to me after Grayson turned his ankle, he was not even close to 100%. Part of that was probably mental fatigue and the other was his ankle. He lost his quickness and got no lift on his shots. I believe that Frank could have played more in the 2nd half to give Grayson more rest. I think Grayson had 32 minutes and Frank 14 minutes. I hate saying that because Grayson is one of my favorite Duke players but the truth is the truth. GoDuke!

devilnfla
02-11-2017, 10:38 PM
Anyone else tire of seeing Brownell complain about every call that went Duke's way? Nearly every call was obvious but he came off as someone who has been drinking the "Duke gets all the calls kool aid".

As I've said in the past, thought Giles and Bolden deserved more minutes. Amile is clearly not the player he has been in the past. All the guys looked gas, and Grayson was not nearly as effective after the ankle injury.

weezie
02-11-2017, 10:45 PM
Anyone else tire of seeing Brownell complain about every call that went Duke's way?

Yeah, that affliction seems to take hold of visiting coaches in Cameron more often than not.

It was great to see K up and carrying on, coat off, moving pretty well. Same for Chase Jeter in warm ups. Jeter looks noticeably thinner (if that's possible on his already lanky frame) but he seems cheerful and mobile.

weezie
02-11-2017, 10:48 PM
Well I can't imagine a business environment where 'feel' would be an acceptable approach to management. As for the 'win', should a business accept 1% growth when its potential was much more? I think this 2-point win should be unacceptable to all of us, including the staff, and that the solution is to use one of our strengths - serious depth.


Don't worry so much!


NEXT PLAY!!!

ncexnyc
02-11-2017, 11:00 PM
Silly me. I thought winning would cure everything, but after four straight wins it hasn't done much for some members of this forum.

Devilwin
02-11-2017, 11:24 PM
1a)
1b)
1K)

I'd obviously much, much prefer a 64-62 than a 62-64, but my word, that 2nd half defense was painful to watch.

Only got to see the last four minutes (work) but from what I saw, the team looked gassed and foot slow. I am watching it tonight. I sure hope we aren't going back to matador defense in the paint. Guy blew by Grayson like he was nailed to the floor...:eek:

Kedsy
02-11-2017, 11:26 PM
Jefferson was -10 for the game. Giles +7 and Bolden +5.

I, like presumably most of the people here, appreciate your efforts on the plus/minus front. But quoting +/- numbers for a two-minute stint is kinda ridiculous. Marques played two minutes, he made a layup and committed two fouls, one of which led directly to points (well, point, anyway) by the opponent. During those two minutes, Duke happened to hit a couple three-pointers that had absolutely nothing to do with Marques's play. Citing his +5 (pretty much exclusively due to the three-pointers) as evidence that he should have played more is misleading at best.


It's hard to make the argument that it's smarter in the short- or long-term to play gassed starters @ 60% than a fresh bench @ 100%. To the few folks to whom the argument does make sense, the performance on the court disproved it. While I don't have 5 titles, I do have common sense and a pair of eyes.

Sounds to me like you're trying to push against a tide. If you root for Duke, this is what you get. If, as you say, you have common sense, you must know there's no point complaining about it.

Stray Gator
02-11-2017, 11:40 PM
Well I can't imagine a business environment where 'feel' would be an acceptable approach to management. As for the 'win', should a business accept 1% growth when its potential was much more? I think this 2-point win should be unacceptable to all of us, including the staff, and that the solution is to use one of our strengths - serious depth.

Funny, but I can't imagine why any Duke fan should feel that any win was "unacceptable" -- particularly given the strength of the ACC this season, the demonstrated ability of today's opponent to pose a difficult challenge for other ranked teams with talented players, and the foreseeable difficulties that our guys would encounter due to mental and physical fatigue as the game wore on. While I'm sure we would all have preferred a more comfortable margin of victory, I found it encouraging that during the first half, when our players could still match the energy level of a group that was playing on four days' rest, Duke was able to build a double-digit lead even with Grayson Allen obviously impaired by the ankle injury; and I was equally encouraged by the toughness our team showed in fighting through their fatigue to withstand and ultimately overcome a couple of second-half runs by Clemson that would likely have resulted in a loss just a few weeks ago.

Of course, it is the inherent right of every fan to question the coaching staff's personnel decisions. As for me, I've seen K use this approach successfully for so many seasons now that I no longer worry about the length of the bench or the potential of the talent that may seem to be languishing there. By mid-February, Coach K typically starts forcing his best 5 or 6 players to evolve into the "fighting unit" he believes they'll need to become by March, keeping them on the floor to create effective chemistry, cultivate cohesion, and acquire the ability to endure and maintain communication through increasing levels of exhaustion and adversity. Some seasons, we may conclude in retrospect that it might have been a better strategy to trade off some of those "bonding and building" minutes to develop greater depth; but given his track record, I think it's difficult to argue with K's approach and instincts. He is a fierce competitor who is focused on doing what's necessary to win games, for himself and his players; and at this point in his career, he trusts his "feel" for which players are going to be capable, within the next few weeks, to become reliable contributors on the floor during the tough contests that lie ahead.

In any event, I don't agree with your statement that "this 2-point win should be unacceptable to all of us." In fact, I believe it is the attitude of fans who fail to appreciate the enormous amount of effort required of our players and staff to produce that 2-point win that should be unacceptable.

Devilwin
02-12-2017, 12:01 AM
In this weird season, we should revel in every win. Should we have played better? Certainly. But we won against a tough, better rested opponent. We'll take it. Now comes UVA. Get some rest guys, this ain't Clemson....

camion
02-12-2017, 12:01 AM
Funny, but I can't imagine why any Duke fan should feel that any win was "unacceptable" -- particularly given the strength of the ACC this season, the demonstrated ability of today's opponent to pose a difficult challenge for other ranked teams with talented players, and the foreseeable difficulties that our guys would encounter due to mental and physical fatigue as the game wore on. While I'm sure we would all have preferred a more comfortable margin of victory, I found it encouraging that during the first half, when our players could still match the energy level of a group that was playing on four days' rest, Duke was able to build a double-digit lead even with Grayson Allen obviously impaired by the ankle injury; and I was equally encouraged by the toughness our team showed in fighting through their fatigue to withstand and ultimately overcome a couple of second-half runs by Clemson that would likely have resulted in a loss just a few weeks ago.

Of course, it is the inherent right of every fan to question the coaching staff's personnel decisions. As for me, I've seen K use this approach successfully for so many seasons now that I no longer worry about the length of the bench or the potential of the talent that may seem to be languishing there. By mid-February, Coach K typically starts forcing his best 5 or 6 players to evolve into the "fighting unit" he believes they'll need to become by March, keeping them on the floor to create effective chemistry, cultivate cohesion, and acquire the ability to endure and maintain communication through increasing levels of exhaustion and adversity. Some seasons, we may conclude in retrospect that it might have been a better strategy to trade off some of those "bonding and building" minutes to develop greater depth; but given his track record, I think it's difficult to argue with K's approach and instincts. He is a fierce competitor who is focused on doing what's necessary to win games, for himself and his players; and at this point in his career, he trusts his "feel" for which players are going to be capable, within the next few weeks, to become reliable contributors on the floor during the tough contests that lie ahead.

In any event, I don't agree with your statement that "this 2-point win should be unacceptable to all of us." In fact, I believe it is the attitude of fans who fail to appreciate the enormous amount of effort required of our players and staff to produce that 2-point win that should be unacceptable.

Nicely stated. Given the circumstances I am pleased to accept a win.

Ultrarunner
02-12-2017, 01:01 AM
Well I can't imagine a business environment where 'feel' would be an acceptable approach to management. As for the 'win', should a business accept 1% growth when its potential was much more? I think this 2-point win should be unacceptable to all of us, including the staff, and that the solution is to use one of our strengths - serious depth.

I treat a 2 point win with gratitude. It is a challenging league and a Duke team that continues to find its way.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-12-2017, 01:12 AM
In this weird season, we should revel in every win. Should we have played better? Certainly. But we won against a tough, better rested opponent. We'll take it. Now comes UVA. Get some rest guys, this ain't Clemson...

Seriously... three weeks ago we were discussing making the tournament, yay or nay, and whether we would finish over .500 in league.

It's a win, in a year that wins don't come easy.

brevity
02-12-2017, 01:15 AM
If you root for Duke, this is what you get. If, as you say, you have common sense, you must know there's no point complaining about it.

As far as I am concerned, this statement should be the last word in any DBR thread that calls into question Coach K's use of his starters and bench.

The comparison is unflattering, but sometimes Coach K reminds me of the cinematic version of architect Mike Brady: for every project he is assigned, whether residential or commercial, he designs the exact same house. While Coach K is adaptable on other parts of the game, and has been more democratic with minutes for an Olympic squad, he is settled and steadfast on the subject of Duke depth.

Kedsy put forth a much nicer version of a harsh but similar statement I made in DBR a few years ago: if you want to root for a team that distributes minutes to the whole roster, there's one just 8 miles away.

Troublemaker
02-12-2017, 03:01 AM
Well I can't imagine a business environment where 'feel' would be an acceptable approach to management. As for the 'win', should a business accept 1% growth when its potential was much more? I think this 2-point win should be unacceptable to all of us, including the staff, and that the solution is to use one of our strengths - serious depth.

Lol at putting 'win' in quotes and calling it unacceptable. Don't take yourself so seriously, buddy.

This game is probably the first time in years* that I've taken serious issue** with the bench usage. I expect/hope to go several years more before complaining again.

But a win is a win, and at the very least, you should appreciate the fight the players showed in gutting out a win in difficult circumstances. As others have mentioned, for the 4th consecutive game, Duke outplayed the opponent down the stretch. This time while dead tired.


* Of course, the fact that I've gone a long time doesn't necessarily make me correct in this instance

** For anyone wondering about the difference b/w this game and the Pitt game... besides the quick turnaround for Clemson, Pitt's "big men" all shoot threes so it makes sense for Duke to play switchable bigs, which meant Amile. Against Clemson, there were only traditional bigs.

jimmiles
02-12-2017, 05:20 AM
:):):)
Funny, but I can't imagine why any Duke fan should feel that any win was "unacceptable" -- particularly given the strength of the ACC this season, the demonstrated ability of today's opponent to pose a difficult challenge for other ranked teams with talented players, and the foreseeable difficulties that our guys would encounter due to mental and physical fatigue as the game wore on. While I'm sure we would all have preferred a more comfortable margin of victory, I found it encouraging that during the first half, when our players could still match the energy level of a group that was playing on four days' rest, Duke was able to build a double-digit lead even with Grayson Allen obviously impaired by the ankle injury; and I was equally encouraged by the toughness our team showed in fighting through their fatigue to withstand and ultimately overcome a couple of second-half runs by Clemson that would likely have resulted in a loss just a few weeks ago.

Of course, it is the inherent right of every fan to question the coaching staff's personnel decisions. As for me, I've seen K use this approach successfully for so many seasons now that I no longer worry about the length of the bench or the potential of the talent that may seem to be languishing there. By mid-February, Coach K typically starts forcing his best 5 or 6 players to evolve into the "fighting unit" he believes they'll need to become by March, keeping them on the floor to create effective chemistry, cultivate cohesion, and acquire the ability to endure and maintain communication through increasing levels of exhaustion and adversity. Some seasons, we may conclude in retrospect that it might have been a better strategy to trade off some of those "bonding and building" minutes to develop greater depth; but given his track record, I think it's difficult to argue with K's approach and instincts. He is a fierce competitor who is focused on doing what's necessary to win games, for himself and his players; and at this point in his career, he trusts his "feel" for which players are going to be capable, within the next few weeks, to become reliable contributors on the floor during the tough contests that lie ahead.

In any event, I don't agree with your statement that "this 2-point win should be unacceptable to all of us." In fact, I believe it is the attitude of fans who fail to appreciate the enormous amount of effort required of our players and staff to produce that 2-point win that should be unacceptable.

sagegrouse
02-12-2017, 06:15 AM
Silly me. I thought winning would cure everything, but after four straight wins it hasn't done much for some members of this forum.

It's even worse than you think -- FIVE straight:

@ WAKE W 85-83
@ 20 ND W 84-74
vs PITT W 72-64
vs 8 UNC W 86-78
vs CLEM W 64-62

The human emotion of dissatisfaction must find its outlet. And, where better than the internet?

Furniture
02-12-2017, 06:20 AM
I am sitting in Heathrow reading all these posts and after a week away I am really relishing getting home and watching the UNC game tonight. I'll probably watch the Clemson game tomorrow!

MChambers
02-12-2017, 07:12 AM
Funny, but I can't imagine why any Duke fan should feel that any win was "unacceptable" -- particularly given the strength of the ACC this season, the demonstrated ability of today's opponent to pose a difficult challenge for other ranked teams with talented players, and the foreseeable difficulties that our guys would encounter due to mental and physical fatigue as the game wore on. While I'm sure we would all have preferred a more comfortable margin of victory, I found it encouraging that during the first half, when our players could still match the energy level of a group that was playing on four days' rest, Duke was able to build a double-digit lead even with Grayson Allen obviously impaired by the ankle injury; and I was equally encouraged by the toughness our team showed in fighting through their fatigue to withstand and ultimately overcome a couple of second-half runs by Clemson that would likely have resulted in a loss just a few weeks ago.

Of course, it is the inherent right of every fan to question the coaching staff's personnel decisions. As for me, I've seen K use this approach successfully for so many seasons now that I no longer worry about the length of the bench or the potential of the talent that may seem to be languishing there. By mid-February, Coach K typically starts forcing his best 5 or 6 players to evolve into the "fighting unit" he believes they'll need to become by March, keeping them on the floor to create effective chemistry, cultivate cohesion, and acquire the ability to endure and maintain communication through increasing levels of exhaustion and adversity. Some seasons, we may conclude in retrospect that it might have been a better strategy to trade off some of those "bonding and building" minutes to develop greater depth; but given his track record, I think it's difficult to argue with K's approach and instincts. He is a fierce competitor who is focused on doing what's necessary to win games, for himself and his players; and at this point in his career, he trusts his "feel" for which players are going to be capable, within the next few weeks, to become reliable contributors on the floor during the tough contests that lie ahead.

In any event, I don't agree with your statement that "this 2-point win should be unacceptable to all of us." In fact, I believe it is the attitude of fans who fail to appreciate the enormous amount of effort required of our players and staff to produce that 2-point win that should be unacceptable.

Apparently I must spread the love around, but this is a great post.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-12-2017, 07:26 AM
Apparently I must spread the love around, but this is a great post.

I am thankful that there are posters here who tell me how a true fan "should" feel. Very helpful to us busy types.

slower
02-12-2017, 07:34 AM
A major part of tenacious D is simply hard work.
And Jack Black.

slower
02-12-2017, 07:35 AM
What does strike me is the fatigue. I know when I would play in church league tournaments in my early twenties, I would have to play 3 games in 3 days, rarely being subbed. Full court, full length games. Can't remember ever being very fatigued. Must have been all that organic food from my garden or something ... fatigue and injuries both seem greater these days at times to me in college ball, maybe I am just being subjective!

Or maybe you just weren't playing against high-level competition.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-12-2017, 07:36 AM
And Jack Black.

Have to learn to communicate and call out the Pick of Destiny.

slower
02-12-2017, 07:42 AM
In any event, I don't agree with your statement that "this 2-point win should be unacceptable to all of us." In fact, I believe it is the attitude of fans who fail to appreciate the enormous amount of effort required of our players and staff to produce that 2-point win that should be unacceptable.

In any event, "the fans" who populate this site pretty much guarantee its existence. The day there's any kind of loyalty oath required around here is the day that many of us bail. The concerns about Giles sitting out the second half and almost losing a close game are just as valid as any others. Don't tell us what we should or shouldn't be dissatisfied about.

dukelifer
02-12-2017, 07:54 AM
Well I can't imagine a business environment where 'feel' would be an acceptable approach to management. As for the 'win', should a business accept 1% growth when its potential was much more? I think this 2-point win should be unacceptable to all of us, including the staff, and that the solution is to use one of our strengths - serious depth.

Two point wins are just fine. If we get that from here on out I will be very happy, and the Championships that result will be very acceptable. You don't get bonus points for being 10-20% better than your opponent. Any positive delta is good in this business.

OldPhiKap
02-12-2017, 08:01 AM
We've gone from 3-4 in the conference and folks concerned about making the tourney, to 8-4 in the conference and complaining about a tight win on a 39-hour turnaround. This place will give you whiplash.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-12-2017, 08:05 AM
We've gone from 3-4 in the conference and folks concerned about making the tourney, to 8-4 in the conference and complaining about a tight win on a 39-hour turnaround. This place will give you whiplash.

"Hot takes" - welcome to 2017.

Indoor66
02-12-2017, 08:24 AM
As my daddy always said: "It ain't how, it's how many." We got just enough.:cool:

OldPhiKap
02-12-2017, 08:26 AM
As my daddy always said: "It ain't how, it's how many." We got just enough.:cool:

Or as Coach Cutcliffe tells younger head coaches, "never forget how to count to six"

camion
02-12-2017, 08:49 AM
In any event, "the fans" who populate this site pretty much guarantee its existence. The day there's any kind of loyalty oath required around here is the day that many of us bail. The concerns about Giles sitting out the second half and almost losing a close game are just as valid as any others. Don't tell us what we should or shouldn't be dissatisfied about.

Good grief, that's a bit overly dramatic in IMO.

In any event, any time someone deems a tough win unacceptable I will feel free to deem that opinion unacceptable.

You may feel free to disagree with me and you have.

sagegrouse
02-12-2017, 09:00 AM
In any event, "the fans" who populate this site pretty much guarantee its existence. The day there's any kind of loyalty oath required around here is the day that many of us bail. The concerns about Giles sitting out the second half and almost losing a close game are just as valid as any others. Don't tell us what we should or shouldn't be dissatisfied about.

Stray didn't scold you -- he said "I don't agree with," which is different.

revmel53
02-12-2017, 09:17 AM
Trying to catch up in Africa before returning late this week. Can't wait to watch both Carolina and Clemson, though Clem may be hard to watch. Hopefully UVA is a good watch as well. Though several of the games have perhaps left us feeling a bit discouraged, I remember that our championship years had some of the same slugfests. And I'm not certain we had as much unrealized potential then as now. Go Devils!!!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-12-2017, 09:19 AM
Or as Coach Cutcliffe tells younger head coaches, "never forget how to count to six"

Six wins is usually requisite for winning the NCAA tournament, but this team will likely need seven, thanks to the play-in game.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-12-2017, 09:23 AM
In any event, "the fans" who populate this site pretty much guarantee its existence. The day there's any kind of loyalty oath required around here is the day that many of us bail. The concerns about Giles sitting out the second half and almost losing a close game are just as valid as any others. Don't tell us what we should or shouldn't be dissatisfied about.

Well, the initial frustrating comment was from a fan stating that no fan "should" be happy/satisfied. There's no law on either side of this that requires us to be always carping or always blissed out with a victory.

I'd wager none of us appreciate being told how we "should" feel about any situation.

So, I guess we are saying the same thing.

/waste of a post
//Go Duke!

slower
02-12-2017, 09:53 AM
Good grief, that's a bit overly dramatic in IMO.

In any event, any time someone deems a tough win unacceptable I will feel free to deem that opinion unacceptable.

You may feel free to disagree with me and you have.

Sure. Strangely enough, I wasn't even replying to a post of yours. :p

slower
02-12-2017, 09:54 AM
Stray didn't scold you -- he said "I don't agree with," which is different.
Pretty sure it was the NEXT sentence in his post that pinged me. But yeah - noted.

dyedwab
02-12-2017, 10:24 AM
A couple of quick thoughts...


1) Game was hard to watch, and fatigue was clearly the X factor, but we pulled it out even though we got Bootsied by Shelton Mitchell

2) What was the best outcome of this game, to me, was that, when everything was going poorly, the whole team bought into our offensive plan, which was get the ball to Luke Kennard. We didn't have the one-on-one hero ball that we saw earlier in the season when things went bad. Knowing what to do when things aren't going well is a discovery for any team's championship hopes.

3) All in all, the game was hard to watch for various reasons, but the outcome was excellent, and the way we ended up getting there bodes well for the future.

Troublemaker
02-12-2017, 10:37 AM
Silly me. I thought winning would cure everything, but after four straight wins it hasn't done much for some members of this forum.

After the Louisville loss, you were suggesting we should start planning for next season (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?39239-MBB-Duke-69-Louisville-78-Post-Game-Thread&p=941870#post941870) based on which players would still be around.

If there was a "cure" needed for "some members of this forum," I gotta say, I think you would've been one of the people in quarantine, my friend. :D

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-12-2017, 10:41 AM
After the Louisville loss, you were suggesting we should start planning for next season (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?39239-MBB-Duke-69-Louisville-78-Post-Game-Thread&p=941870#post941870) based on which players would still be around.

If there was a "cure" needed for "some members of this forum," I gotta say, I think you would've been one of the people in quarantine, my friend. :D

Don't worry, we are a big tent party... when champagne is served in April, we will let everyone back in.

weezie
02-12-2017, 10:45 AM
How many times has K said that he's a "teacher"? Sometimes it's easy to teach a person, sometimes it is nearly impossible.
K tells us every season that each team is different and has to learn to take the journey together. For all his temper on the court (and boy, was that second half chewing out a good one,) he has deep wells of patience and belief.

Time to go shock the conference and learn to deal with London Perrantes. I hope the mojo of Tyus Jones will be in the JPJ.

Troublemaker
02-12-2017, 11:00 AM
Nice short espn article on Matt Jones (http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/117658/on-a-team-stacked-with-scorers-dukes-matt-jones-understands-value-of-defense). Getting recognition for his D.

I love this doe-eyed freshman kinda-lacking-perspective quote from Jayson:


“Matt is the best defensive player in the country in my book,” Tatum said. “His stats may not always show up, but he’s always, if not the most important, the second-most important guy every game.”

While I've always been a big Matt fan, I wouldn't go that far personally. But, I do hope Matt gets on to the ACC All-Defensive Team. Don't know if he'll make it but there are 5 slots, and all 5 guys from last season graduated or left. Additionally, both Duke coaches and players have been vocally drawing attention to Matt's defense this season, so hopefully the ACC media have noticed.

As for ACC DPOY? There are probably 3 major contenders that he's way behind. Georgia Tech's Ben Lammers, who has anchored the middle of a terrific zone. UVA's Isaiah Wilkins, and Louisville's Donovan Mitchell. If Duke were ranked higher as a team on defense, Matt could get into their rear-view mirror a bit.

richardjackson199
02-12-2017, 11:01 AM
Duke's lack of a true point guard is really hurting Harry Giles. He can absolutely finish in the paint, but no one is getting him the ball in the post. His lack of production is not totally his fault.

Agreed. Giles was open in the post and we need to look for him more. He is improving and capable.

richardjackson199
02-12-2017, 11:04 AM
Oof, that was tough to watch in the second half, feeling Duke was the better team but trying to win while running on fumes.

Thought the first half was an outstanding continuation of the closing minutes of Thursday night, when we held UNC to 8 points in the final 7 minutes. Mostly good defense at the point of attack and in transition (areas we've struggled with all season), though Clemson did get a number of good looks that they just bricked on.

It's pretty clear that while Luke might be our best player this season and Tatum the most skilled and athletic, the team really needs Grayson to be at his best to hit that next level. Think the ankle sprain, the exhaustion, and maybe a little bit of exhaling after the euphoria of Thursday night meant he was ineffective for most of today, especially in the 2nd half. He doesn't need to score a ton, but he needs to be active -- four assists in the first half, only one in the second, and the stagnation in our second half offense showed it.

Duke had 11 of its 13 assists in the first 26:20, only 2 in the final 13:40 (both of which led to 3 pointers). A lot of one on one as Luke tried to single handedly take us to the finish line, and I can't blame him in a way given how the rest of the guys seemed to stop moving. In fairness, starting with Matt's very short missed corner 3 to start the second half, the team's legs really looked shot. Fortunately, we got to the free throw line toward the end and (let's be honest) also got a couple of favorable calls.

Credit to Brownell for that 1-3-1 zone trap look that threw us off as we seemed to be breaking away in the final two minutes. This was the kind of game that I wish we had used a zone for selective possessions to break up their rhythm and keep their straight line drives from killing us.

As others pointed out, the second half felt a lot like the NC State game, where we couldn't seem to hold off a team just rolling downhill on us. Probably the sign of a young team lacking continuity and playing in such a tough conference with no giveaway games, but the second half runs we've given up are interesting:

23-8 run by Clemson to turn 36-22 deficit to 45-44 lead (16:55 to 10:10)
18-6 run by UNC to turn 53-46 deficit to 64-59 lead (16:12 to 11:16)
12-0 run by ND to turn 63-60 lead to 63-62 lead (9:36 to 6:28)
18-9 run by WF to turn 63-62 lead to 81-71 lead (8:54 to 4:01)
20-5 run by NC State to turn 68-59 deficit to 79-73 lead (6:52 to 1:30)
16-4 run by FL State to turn 50-48 deficit to 64-54 lead (15:03 to 9:13)

The good news is, we recovered from the last four of those to win all those games, and in all honesty probably should have won the NC State game as well given how they were trying to give it away at the end. So we clearly have the talent (especially the offense) and coaching to bounce back and pull out games against good teams. But I wondered before the game why comfortable wins are so rare (outside of an anomalous pasting of Georgia Tech), and it's clear we have 4 to 6 minute letdowns that are part mental, part foul-induced, part inconsistent defense, and part simple growing pains.

But as K said after the game, the team keeps growing. As the season continues, I'd love to see more minutes for the other big guys and to see Jayson and Frank and Harry continue to evolve and cut down on the mistakes so that we can start to visualize that upside so many forecast for us at the start of the season. In the meantime, get some rest guys: you deserve it, and the schedule doesn't get any easier.

I could not agree more with this entire post. Duke will need much better ball movement on offense to get good shots against UVA's pack line. Share the ball.

Stray Gator
02-12-2017, 11:11 AM
Pretty sure it was the NEXT sentence in his post that pinged me. But yeah - noted.

I regret that you felt "pinged" by the statement of my belief that when a fan proclaims Duke's 2-point win over Clemson yesterday "should be unacceptable to all of us, including the staff," it is that attitude -- reflecting a lack of appreciation for the efforts of the players and staff to earn that win -- that should itself be unacceptable. I don't know how you managed to transform that statement into what you've mischaracterized as denying or disputing that "[t]]he concerns about Giles sitting out the second half and almost losing a close game are just as valid as any others." As I clearly acknowledged, "it is the inherent right of every fan to question the coaching staff's personnel decisions."

Just to clarify for you and anyone else whom I may have inadvertently "pinged," I believe it's perfectly fine for a fan to express disagreement with the coaches' distribution of minutes, or disappointment with what he or she considers the failure of the staff to adequately develop the bench. But in my opinion, declaring that other fans and the staff should find a 2-point win "unacceptable" -- particularly when the team had to overcome adverse circumstances against a tough conference opponent -- is a different thing altogether. It is, in my view, disdainful of, if not downright insulting to, the players and coaches who, so far as I can tell, are giving everything they have to win these games -- not just for themselves, but for the enjoyment and pride of Duke fans.

I can only speak for myself, but the fact that those players and coaches have consistently and enthusiastically voiced their appreciation for the support of Duke fans makes me feel that we as Duke fans should reciprocate by appreciating the hard work required to produce all those wins and banners that we are fortunate to celebrate. It is understandable that fans will be "disappointed" with losses, and may have "valid concerns" about certain aspects of the team's or an individual player's performance or the coaches' personnel decisions even in games that are won. But for a fan to claim that a hard-earned win "should be unacceptable to us all" is -- in my opinion -- a presumptuous statement that not only deserves, but demands, an answer from those of us who disagree.

Saratoga2
02-12-2017, 11:12 AM
I could not agree more with this entire post. Duke will need much better ball movement on offense to get good shots against UVA's pack line. Share the ball.
Yes, UVA has an excellent defense and beat Louisville rather easily. I believe Tony Bennett is one of the top 5 coaches in the league and his teams are always competitive. The next game we face them on the road and they are more highly rated. they match up pretty well with us so it should be a real test. I hope that Grayson's ankle will be close to normal because we will need him.

Virginia will put experienced guards against us with Marial Shayak and London Ferrantes and Devon Hall playing minutes. Don't know who Matt will defend. Enough of this, I will save it for the pregame thread with UVA.

ncexnyc
02-12-2017, 11:17 AM
After the Louisville loss, you were suggesting we should start planning for next season (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?39239-MBB-Duke-69-Louisville-78-Post-Game-Thread&p=941870#post941870) based on which players would still be around.

If there was a "cure" needed for "some members of this forum," I gotta say, I think you would've been one of the people in quarantine, my friend. :D

Touche!

However as a fan I reserve the right to flip flop on any position I take.:D

OldPhiKap
02-12-2017, 11:51 AM
I regret that you felt "pinged" by the statement of my belief that when a fan proclaims Duke's 2-point win over Clemson yesterday "should be unacceptable to all of us, including the staff," it is that attitude -- reflecting a lack of appreciation for the efforts of the players and staff to earn that win -- that should itself be unacceptable. I don't know how you managed to transform that statement into what you've mischaracterized as denying or disputing that "[t]]he concerns about Giles sitting out the second half and almost losing a close game are just as valid as any others." As I clearly acknowledged, "it is the inherent right of every fan to question the coaching staff's personnel decisions."

Just to clarify for you and anyone else whom I may have inadvertently "pinged," I believe it's perfectly fine for a fan to express disagreement with the coaches' distribution of minutes, or disappointment with what he or she considers the failure of the staff to adequately develop the bench. But in my opinion, declaring that other fans and the staff should find a 2-point win "unacceptable" -- particularly when the team had to overcome adverse circumstances against a tough conference opponent -- is a different thing altogether. It is, in my view, disdainful of, if not downright insulting to, the players and coaches who, so far as I can tell, are giving everything they have to win these games -- not just for themselves, but for the enjoyment and pride of Duke fans.

I can only speak for myself, but the fact that those players and coaches have consistently and enthusiastically voiced their appreciation for the support of Duke fans makes me feel that we as Duke fans should reciprocate by appreciating the hard work required to produce all those wins and banners that we are fortunate to celebrate. It is understandable that fans will be "disappointed" with losses, and may have "valid concerns" about certain aspects of the team's or an individual player's performance or the coaches' personnel decisions even in games that are won. But for a fan to claim that a hard-earned win "should be unacceptable to us all" is -- in my opinion -- a presumptuous statement that not only deserves, but demands, an answer from those of us who disagree.

FWIW, K said in the post-game press conference that this was our "best win of the season." He obviously did not get the memo that he should be disappointed, nay deeply concerned.

But what does he know.

(As usual, Stray leads the Sporkz/post ratio on the board, though I must spread some first . . . .)

vick
02-12-2017, 12:21 PM
Nice short espn article on Matt Jones (http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/117658/on-a-team-stacked-with-scorers-dukes-matt-jones-understands-value-of-defense). Getting recognition for his D.

I love this doe-eyed freshman kinda-lacking-perspective quote from Jayson:



While I've always been a big Matt fan, I wouldn't go that far personally. But, I do hope Matt gets on to the ACC All-Defensive Team. Don't know if he'll make it but there are 5 slots, and all 5 guys from last season graduated or left. Additionally, both Duke coaches and players have been vocally drawing attention to Matt's defense this season, so hopefully the ACC media have noticed.

As for ACC DPOY? There are probably 3 major contenders that he's way behind. Georgia Tech's Ben Lammers, who has anchored the middle of a terrific zone. UVA's Isaiah Wilkins, and Louisville's Donovan Mitchell. If Duke were ranked higher as a team on defense, Matt could get into their rear-view mirror a bit.

Agree those would be the top three. As for the other slots on all-defense...maybe Jonathan Isaac, who is #2 in defensive rebounding percentage, #6 in block percentage, and #10 in steal (!) percentage in conference play, for the fourth-best defense in the league. I'm a huge fan of Anas Mahmoud's defense too but he doesn't play enough (19 MPG) to justify a slot. Jones seems a worthy pick for the fifth slot.

Hmm...maybe time for an all-acc speculation thread. Might start it later.

arnie
02-12-2017, 12:44 PM
Agree those would be the top three. As for the other slots on all-defense...maybe Jonathan Isaac, who is #2 in defensive rebounding percentage, #6 in block percentage, and #10 in steal (!) percentage in conference play, for the fourth-best defense in the league. I'm a huge fan of Anas Mahmoud's defense too but he doesn't play enough (19 MPG) to justify a slot. Jones seems a worthy pick for the fifth slot.

Hmm...maybe time for an all-acc speculation thread. Might start it later.

I think Matt will make the All-ACC defensive team;unless they put all five NCSU starters on the team.

Olympic Fan
02-12-2017, 12:45 PM
Six wins is usually requisite for winning the NCAA tournament, but this team will likely need seven, thanks to the play-in game.

I seriously don't get this comment.

You think Duke will go from a four seed (as they officially were before the Clemson game) to a 12 seed in the next month? You think Duke will lose out (which is about the only way Duke could drop that far).

Or were you making some kid of joke that flew over my head?

But seriously the odds of Duke playing in the play-in game are infinitesimal.

uh_no
02-12-2017, 12:57 PM
I don't have a problem with a 2 point win. I have a problem with blowing a 14 point lead and giving up 27 points in 8 minutes (for those counting, it was a stunning 170 defensive efficiency for that stretch...). I have a problem with a highly mediocre offensive showing given that clemson's defense is extremely average.

I find K's call to not get harry in in the second half dubious, but his reasons there may be unknown to me (thinking bigger than today? giles rest?).

I should be clear that "have a problem with" is more "have a concern with" than "the team owes it to me not to do those things" or any sort of derision. Clemson is still a very good team (KP 30's), and for 30 minutes we played some really good ball against them. The fact that it was still a two point game indicates how horrendously bad the other 10 minutes were.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-12-2017, 01:27 PM
I seriously don't get this comment.

You think Duke will go from a four seed (as they officially were before the Clemson game) to a 12 seed in the next month? You think Duke will lose out (which is about the only way Duke could drop that far).

Or were you making some kid of joke that flew over my head?

But seriously the odds of Duke playing in the play-in game are infinitesimal.

Yes, I was making a joke. The football coach's 6 wins comment is about bowls. I bastardized it and flipped as a comment about how three weeks ago some people on the board considered us unlikely to make the big dance. I am decidedly not one of those people - I am enjoying this season, growing pains and all.

A bad joke fell flat.

NSDukeFan
02-12-2017, 01:29 PM
Well I can't imagine a business environment where 'feel' would be an acceptable approach to management. As for the 'win', should a business accept 1% growth when its potential was much more? I think this 2-point win should be unacceptable to all of us, including the staff, and that the solution is to use one of our strengths - serious depth.
If a 1000 win coach who is considered by many to be the best ever wants to sometimes manage by feel, I believe he has earned the benefit of the doubt after another victory in a very tough conference.

We've gone from 3-4 in the conference and folks concerned about making the tourney, to 8-4 in the conference and complaining about a tight win on a 39-hour turnaround. This place will give you whiplash.
I find it acceptable that this team is looking like it will prove my 11-7 prediction on that thread pessimistic.

Good grief, that's a bit overly dramatic in IMO.

In any event, any time someone deems a tough win unacceptable I will feel free to deem that opinion unacceptable.

You may feel free to disagree with me and you have.
I agree. I accept the team is doing the best they can.


Nice short espn article on Matt Jones (http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/117658/on-a-team-stacked-with-scorers-dukes-matt-jones-understands-value-of-defense). Getting recognition for his D.

I love this doe-eyed freshman kinda-lacking-perspective quote from Jayson:



While I've always been a big Matt fan, I wouldn't go that far personally. But, I do hope Matt gets on to the ACC All-Defensive Team. Don't know if he'll make it but there are 5 slots, and all 5 guys from last season graduated or left. Additionally, both Duke coaches and players have been vocally drawing attention to Matt's defense this season, so hopefully the ACC media have noticed.

As for ACC DPOY? There are probably 3 major contenders that he's way behind. Georgia Tech's Ben Lammers, who has anchored the middle of a terrific zone. UVA's Isaiah Wilkins, and Louisville's Donovan Mitchell. If Duke were ranked higher as a team on defense, Matt could get into their rear-view mirror a bit.
Thanks for sharing your opinion on top defensive players in the conference as I didn't know who would be in contention.

FWIW, K said in the post-game press conference that this was our "best win of the season." He obviously did not get the memo that he should be disappointed, nay deeply concerned.

But what does he know.

(As usual, Stray leads the Sporkz/post ratio on the board, though I must spread some first . . . .)
I keep getting that same message with Stray's posts.

Agree those would be the top three. As for the other slots on all-defense...maybe Jonathan Isaac, who is #2 in defensive rebounding percentage, #6 in block percentage, and #10 in steal (!) percentage in conference play, for the fourth-best defense in the league. I'm a huge fan of Anas Mahmoud's defense too but he doesn't play enough (19 MPG) to justify a slot. Jones seems a worthy pick for the fifth slot.

Hmm...maybe time for an all-acc speculation thread. Might start it later.

Thanks for your all-defensive speculation.

jv001
02-12-2017, 02:41 PM
Getting away from Coach K's distribution of minutes. Here are some takeaways from yesterday's game.

Blossomgame, Clemson's best player's stats: 7 points on 3/12 attempts, 2 assists and 2 turnovers in 39 minutes. A shoutout for Matt Jones. Way to go Matt.

Thomas, big guy for Clemson: 15 points on 5/9 attempts, FTs 5/7 (40% FT shooter), 9 rebounds, 1 assist, 0 turnovers and 2 blocks. A very good game and I didn't expect he would play this well.

Mitchell, Clemson guard: 23 points on 8/15 attempts, 2/2 on 3 pointers, FTs 5/6 attempts, 1 assist and 0 turnovers. A good performance and he was terrific in the 2nd half.

Duke held Clemson to 38% FGs, 22% on 3pointers.

Clemson won the rebound battle 38-34.

Clemson only had 6 assists.

My eye test told me that Mitchell and Thomas were the Clemson players that gave Duke fits yesterday. I would have figured it to be Blossomgame.

On to the Cavaliers. GoDuke!

Indoor66
02-12-2017, 02:57 PM
Isn't Coach K's approach to take away the other Teams best player and make the others beat us? We did that but the offense failed to produce in the second half.

Troublemaker
02-12-2017, 03:18 PM
Agree those would be the top three. As for the other slots on all-defense...maybe Jonathan Isaac, who is #2 in defensive rebounding percentage, #6 in block percentage, and #10 in steal (!) percentage in conference play, for the fourth-best defense in the league. I'm a huge fan of Anas Mahmoud's defense too but he doesn't play enough (19 MPG) to justify a slot. Jones seems a worthy pick for the fifth slot.

Hmm...maybe time for an all-acc speculation thread. Might start it later.

Those would be my five. We have the same affinity for Mahmoud as well. Lville's center spot likely becomes a 30/10 split next season (since Mathiang will graduate) instead of this season's 20/20 split, so Mahmoud is a serious contender for DPOY next season. Both Lville and UVA project to be awesome next season and completely suffocating on D. (Duke could be up there as well but we have to hit on some recruiting targets in the spring).

uh_no
02-12-2017, 03:42 PM
Isn't Coach K's approach to take away the other Teams best player and make the others beat us? We did that but the offense failed to produce in the second half.

eh, the offense didn't degrade that much. it put up 15 points in the first 10 minutes of the half, which isn't too horrible for a slow game, and is almost exactly in line with what the team did for the first half. Sure we'd want a couple more points in that stretch, but the offense in that stretch wasn't the main issue. Now, the fact that we played mediocre on offense all game, I'll grant you...but it was really the defense that let up in that 10 minutes stretch.

and if that is the case, we certainly took away their best player, but we also didn't adjust when they came out at halftime and the others started beating us to the tune of 27 points in 8 minutes. I don't know if K was inspired by roy on thursday, but allowing the lead to dwindle to 1 before calling a timeout I think was a mistake. Now, to be fair, there were two media timeouts and a clemson timeout interspersed, but I think calling TO sends a message to the team that what's happening is unacceptable, rather than the passive waiting for the next TO to come.

K banked 2 TO last night

Ggallagher
02-12-2017, 03:49 PM
Isn't Coach K's approach to take away the other Teams best player and make the others beat us? We did that but the offense failed to produce in the second half.

I was curious as to how much Blossomgame got shut down - by Matt or whoever happened to be on him yesterday. Looks like he got REAL shut down. He scored 0.18 pts./min-played yesterday. That's the lowest production he's had in the last three years. During the last two years, he's averaging about 0.53pts./min-played. That 0.18 number is a real outlier for him, so it looks likes you're right that the defense did as requested.

BlueDevilWildcat
02-12-2017, 03:50 PM
I can only speak for myself, but the fact that those players and coaches have consistently and enthusiastically voiced their appreciation for the support of Duke fans makes me feel that we as Duke fans should reciprocate by appreciating the hard work required to produce all those wins and banners that we are fortunate to celebrate. It is understandable that fans will be "disappointed" with losses, and may have "valid concerns" about certain aspects of the team's or an individual player's performance or the coaches' personnel decisions even in games that are won. But for a fan to claim that a hard-earned win "should be unacceptable to us all" is -- in my opinion -- a presumptuous statement that not only deserves, but demands, an answer from those of us who disagree.I'm genuinely curious - did you find this game acceptable? If you truly did, then we're on completely different wavelengths, and hey, that happens.

But no, I don't find consistent effort sufficient to claim a game or team a success. Is that effort well-directed so that the outcome is the best possible outcome? If it is, then while we can complain about the team not performing as well as we thought, we have no room to critique either effort or execution. In this case, I appreciate the effort but found the performance unacceptable because of (lack of) substitution patterns.

Coach K is a great coach - maybe not at the Geno or Pop level anymore, but certainly one of the best. But to get to their level, I think he'd need to be more flexible with his entire approach.

Lastly, I've noticed that there are some 'board police' on this board that aren't in evidence on other boards. I suspect that's a source of pride for the community here, but I think it also detracts from the overall quality of the discussion. To each their own of course.

uh_no
02-12-2017, 03:55 PM
Coach K is a great coach - maybe not at the Geno or Pop level anymore

i guess 2 titles and 2 olympic golds in the past 7 seasons just doesn't cut the mustard? You could argue the other two are better coaches if you like (though you might not get much love here), but I think arguing that K has somehow fallen off is nuts.

Troublemaker
02-12-2017, 04:11 PM
I'm genuinely curious - did you find this game acceptable? If you truly did, then we're on completely different wavelengths, and hey, that happens.

Did you read ANY of Stray's tremendous, level-headed posts? If you did, you wouldn't have to ask.

I know it's soooooo hard to believe that people could find a win to be acceptable, but nobody here is trying to fool you.

CDu
02-12-2017, 04:21 PM
eh, the offense didn't degrade that much. it put up 15 points in the first 10 minutes of the half, which isn't too horrible for a slow game, and is almost exactly in line with what the team did for the first half. Sure we'd want a couple more points in that stretch, but the offense in that stretch wasn't the main issue. Now, the fact that we played mediocre on offense all game, I'll grant you...but it was really the defense that let up in that 10 minutes stretch.

and if that is the case, we certainly took away their best player, but we also didn't adjust when they came out at halftime and the others started beating us to the tune of 27 points in 8 minutes. I don't know if K was inspired by roy on thursday, but allowing the lead to dwindle to 1 before calling a timeout I think was a mistake. Now, to be fair, there were two media timeouts and a clemson timeout interspersed, but I think calling TO sends a message to the team that what's happening is unacceptable, rather than the passive waiting for the next TO to come.

K banked 2 TO last night

Yeah, the offense was actually slightly better in the second half than in the first. It was our defense that failed us in the second. We shut down Blossomgame but gave up 44 points in the second half anyway.

Stray Gator
02-12-2017, 05:10 PM
I'm genuinely curious - did you find this game acceptable? If you truly did, then we're on completely different wavelengths, and hey, that happens.

But no, I don't find consistent effort sufficient to claim a game or team a success. Is that effort well-directed so that the outcome is the best possible outcome? If it is, then while we can complain about the team not performing as well as we thought, we have no room to critique either effort or execution. In this case, I appreciate the effort but found the performance unacceptable because of (lack of) substitution patterns.

Coach K is a great coach - maybe not at the Geno or Pop level anymore, but certainly one of the best. But to get to their level, I think he'd need to be more flexible with his entire approach.

Lastly, I've noticed that there are some 'board police' on this board that aren't in evidence on other boards. I suspect that's a source of pride for the community here, but I think it also detracts from the overall quality of the discussion. To each their own of course.

To answer your initial question, I can assure you that I found the team's win over Clemson "acceptable." In fact, I was glad to walk out of Cameron with the W, because over the years I've learned what it feels like to emerge from the Indoor Stadium on the losing end of such games.

I don't know whether you're as new to the Duke basketball community as you are to this forum, but for me -- and I suspect for many others here who have followed the program through decades of ups and downs -- any win, especially against an ACC opponent, is not only "acceptable," but is something to be appreciated. That certainly doesn't mean that I would not have preferred a more comfortable victory; nor does it mean that I don't sometimes "complain about the team not performing as well as we thought," and "critique either effort or execution." Look around and you'll see plenty of that criticism tolerated here. But as a Duke fan, I will never say that a win was "unacceptable."

Frankly, I find it difficult to comprehend how any Duke fan could feel so entitled that they would adopt and express such an attitude. In effect, you seem to be saying to our players and coaches: "Winning games isn't good enough for me. You owe me 'the best possible outcome' every time out. And if I believe that your performance was unsatisfactory, then regardless of the players' efforts and regardless of the coaches' reasons for using or not using the substitution patterns that I think would work best, I will deem your victory unacceptable." That must sound mighty harsh to members of the team or the staff or their families or friends who happen to read this board -- not to mention potential recruits and their families and friends. And we know from experience that some of the aforementioned folks do, in fact, read this board.

As for your statement that Coach K is "maybe not at the Geno or Pop level anymore," and your complaint about what you characterize as "board police," I'll merely say that you're welcome to express your opinions here, but you also need to be willing and prepared to defend what you say when your positions are challenged by others. We do have moderators to monitor the discussions for the purpose of ensuring that no one engages in personal attacks or otherwise violates the forum rules, which are designed to maintain a civil and mutually respectful tone in the exchanges. We sometimes like to analogize this board to a neighborhood pub, where the regulars take pride in being relative knowledgeable, try to be friendly and hospitable to visitors, and endeavor to conduct themselves in accordance with standards of behavior that reflect our collective sense of pride in being alumni and fans of the Duke program. If you are interested in becoming part of an online community like that, and you're willing to subject your opinions to challenge by other fans who may sometimes beg to differ, then welcome to the DBR.

NashvilleDevil
02-12-2017, 05:27 PM
I'm genuinely curious - did you find this game acceptable? If you truly did, then we're on completely different wavelengths, and hey, that happens.

But no, I don't find consistent effort sufficient to claim a game or team a success. Is that effort well-directed so that the outcome is the best possible outcome? If it is, then while we can complain about the team not performing as well as we thought, we have no room to critique either effort or execution. In this case, I appreciate the effort but found the performance unacceptable because of (lack of) substitution patterns.

Coach K is a great coach - maybe not at the Geno or Pop level anymore, but certainly one of the best. But to get to their level, I think he'd need to be more flexible with his entire approach.

Lastly, I've noticed that there are some 'board police' on this board that aren't in evidence on other boards. I suspect that's a source of pride for the community here, but I think it also detracts from the overall quality of the discussion. To each their own of course.

Not at the Geno or Pop level anymore? Really? K has won a title more recently than Pop and it's dicey comparing men's coaches to women's. Geno dominates women's basketball but what schools are challenging UConn?

As for acceptability of the win, I find the statement ridiculous that a win against a top 40 KenPom team is unacceptable because Duke won by 2. Let's not even take into account that Duke was coming off the Carolina game only a day and a half prior and had to get ready against a physical Clemson team. Duke cannot win every game by 20, I think grinding wins out will help this team in the long run.

Did you find the win vs Va. Tech in 14-15 unacceptable because they went into overtime? Was the 92 East Regional Final and unacceptable win because Duke gave up a double digit lead and needed one of the greatest shots in basketball history to beat Kentucky?

As Stray said be prepared to back up your statements when members of this board respond to your posts.

Neals384
02-12-2017, 05:48 PM
I, like presumably most of the people here, appreciate your efforts on the plus/minus front. But quoting +/- numbers for a two-minute stint is kinda ridiculous. Marques played two minutes, he made a layup and committed two fouls, one of which led directly to points (well, point, anyway) by the opponent. During those two minutes, Duke happened to hit a couple three-pointers that had absolutely nothing to do with Marques's play. Citing his +5 (pretty much exclusively due to the three-pointers) as evidence that he should have played more is misleading at best.



Sounds to me like you're trying to push against a tide. If you root for Duke, this is what you get. If, as you say, you have common sense, you must know there's no point complaining about it.

You're right, of course, about +/-. Not very useful in the short term. But I'll stick to my main point. In the 2nd half, Duke was getting scorched in the paint 26-12, and on 2nd chance points, 9-0. And yet coach does not trust Giles or Bolden enough to play them. Instead he plays a less-than-100%-healthy Jefferson the entire 2nd half (except part of the last minute). I'm not saying it was the wrong coaching decision. I'm saying the fact the the bench is not used when the need is great is a huge problem for this team going forward.

weezie
02-12-2017, 07:19 PM
...Coach K is a great coach - maybe not at the Geno or Pop level anymore, but certainly one of the best. But to get to their level, I think he'd need to be more flexible with his entire approach...

:D:D:D Haha, just got through cleaning out the basement and THIS is the best post/laugh of the day. GENO??!!!

WVDUKEFAN
02-12-2017, 07:31 PM
:D:D:D Haha, just got through cleaning out the basement and THIS is the best post/laugh of the day. GENO??!!!

Right on, Weez! What Coach K has done over the pat 40 years is incredible. And he isn't done!

moonpie23
02-12-2017, 09:14 PM
I think this 2-point win should be unacceptable to all of us, including the staff, and that the solution is to use one of our strengths - serious depth.

unless you can provide some references showing us your long and tenured coaching pedigree, i'll file this under " a lot of phooey".

"unacceptable" ???

so, fire K, the staff? Put out an executive order to all the team members that no more 2point wins will be accepted?


it's fine to disagree with the coaching, it's another thing to posture yourself with such absurd ultimatums...


sheesh...

moonpie23
02-12-2017, 09:18 PM
To answer your initial question, I can assure you that I found the team's win over Clemson "acceptable." In fact, I was glad to walk out of Cameron with the W, because over the years I've learned what it feels like to emerge from the Indoor Stadium on the losing end of such games.

I don't know whether you're as new to the Duke basketball community as you are to this forum, but for me -- and I suspect for many others here who have followed the program through decades of ups and downs -- any win, especially against an ACC opponent, is not only "acceptable," but is something to be appreciated. That certainly doesn't mean that I would not have preferred a more comfortable victory; nor does it mean that I don't sometimes "complain about the team not performing as well as we thought," and "critique either effort or execution." Look around and you'll see plenty of that criticism tolerated here. But as a Duke fan, I will never say that a win was "unacceptable."

Frankly, I find it difficult to comprehend how any Duke fan could feel so entitled that they would adopt and express such an attitude. In effect, you seem to be saying to our players and coaches: "Winning games isn't good enough for me. You owe me 'the best possible outcome' every time out. And if I believe that your performance was unsatisfactory, then regardless of the players' efforts and regardless of the coaches' reasons for using or not using the substitution patterns that I think would work best, I will deem your victory unacceptable." That must sound mighty harsh to members of the team or the staff or their families or friends who happen to read this board -- not to mention potential recruits and their families and friends. And we know from experience that some of the aforementioned folks do, in fact, read this board.

As for your statement that Coach K is "maybe not at the Geno or Pop level anymore," and your complaint about what you characterize as "board police," I'll merely say that you're welcome to express your opinions here, but you also need to be willing and prepared to defend what you say when your positions are challenged by others. We do have moderators to monitor the discussions for the purpose of ensuring that no one engages in personal attacks or otherwise violates the forum rules, which are designed to maintain a civil and mutually respectful tone in the exchanges. We sometimes like to analogize this board to a neighborhood pub, where the regulars take pride in being relative knowledgeable, try to be friendly and hospitable to visitors, and endeavor to conduct themselves in accordance with standards of behavior that reflect our collective sense of pride in being alumni and fans of the Duke program. If you are interested in becoming part of an online community like that, and you're willing to subject your opinions to challenge by other fans who may sometimes beg to differ, then welcome to the DBR.

You must spread some Comments around before commenting on Stray Gator again.

Utley
02-12-2017, 09:25 PM
I think this was a game that is best evaluated from a did we win or lose standpoint. The noise from the ludicrously tight turnaround obscures everything else.

I can see why K said this was the best win of the season. Sometimes it's mainly about your will to win.

uh_no
02-12-2017, 09:37 PM
I think this was a game that is best evaluated from a did we win or lose standpoint.

why? wins and losses in close games have little predictive value.

jv001
02-12-2017, 09:39 PM
why? wins and losses in close games have little predictive value.

Are we talking about major league starting pitchers? The stat guys say wins don't matter. GoDuke!

Emerrick
02-12-2017, 09:43 PM
2OT VA loss to Tech

VA had nothing at the end.
http://www.gobblercountry.com/2017/2/12/14593936/virginia-tech-outlasts-12-virginia-in-double-ot-80-78

I wonder if they'll be a little low on fuel on Wed.

duke4ever19
02-12-2017, 09:56 PM
I'm genuinely curious - did you find this game acceptable? If you truly did, then we're on completely different wavelengths, and hey, that happens.

But no, I don't find consistent effort sufficient to claim a game or team a success. Is that effort well-directed so that the outcome is the best possible outcome? If it is, then while we can complain about the team not performing as well as we thought, we have no room to critique either effort or execution. In this case, I appreciate the effort but found the performance unacceptable because of (lack of) substitution patterns.

I'm going to meet you half way (I think).

Duke's win over Clemson certainly wasn't aesthetically pleasing. I desperately wanted them to get out of the gate fast and put Clemson in the rear-view mirror by midway through the first half, partly because I thought it would be a great statement ("What let-down?"), but also because I suspected that fatigue would be a factor in the second half. It wasn't to be, and I'll admit I was a bit "meh" about it . . . until I listened to Coach K's postgame presser. He politely explains why this game wasn't going to go that way. He already knew that the opponent + physical/emotional fatigue = tough game. I would highly recommend giving it a listen if you haven't.

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=5954414

vick
02-12-2017, 10:04 PM
why? wins and losses in close games have little predictive value.

Sure, that's absolutely right as an analyst. What I, and I think others, find strange is when people have the same mentality as fans. As a fan, I enjoy winning and hate losing, even though I know perfectly well as an "analyst" that losing by 1 at Gonzaga would be a "better" result than winning by 1 at home against UNC. I mean, everyone should be a fan in his or her own way, but being a Nick Saban clone just doesn't seem fun.

tbyers11
02-12-2017, 10:04 PM
why? wins and losses in close games have little predictive value.

From the probability POV I agree that a close win or loss is frequently heavily influenced by semi-random events.

However, from a team morale and confidence POV, winning a close game is, IMO, immeasurably preferable to losing a close game.

uh_no
02-12-2017, 10:20 PM
From the probability POV I agree that a close win or loss is frequently heavily influenced by semi-random events.

However, from a team morale and confidence POV, winning a close game is, IMO, immeasurably preferable to losing a close game.

and from a fan perspective!

But that doesn't mean that other evaluation should be discarded, as is being suggested.

rsvman
02-12-2017, 10:40 PM
My suggestion is to stop feeding the troll.

MrPoon
02-12-2017, 11:33 PM
My suggestion is to stop feeding the troll.

Your suggestion is unacceptable...

sorry couldn't help myself. :p

SlapTheFloor
02-13-2017, 12:54 AM
I don't think I've ever seen the board meltdown over a win. Against a conference opponent (who isn't half bad). And the fifth game in a win streak.

uh_no
02-13-2017, 01:06 AM
I don't think I've ever seen the board meltdown over a win. Against a conference opponent (who isn't half bad). And the fifth game in a win streak.

you must be new here :)

BandAlum83
02-13-2017, 01:19 AM
I don't think I've ever seen the board meltdown over a win. Against a conference opponent (who isn't half bad). And the fifth game in a win streak.

That's what one experienced and motivated troll can do to a community, unfortunately.

Kfanarmy
02-13-2017, 01:48 AM
I'm genuinely curious - did you find this game acceptable? If you truly did, then we're on completely different wavelengths, and hey, that happens.

But no, I don't find consistent effort sufficient to claim a game or team a success. Is that effort well-directed so that the outcome is the best possible outcome? If it is, then while we can complain about the team not performing as well as we thought, we have no room to critique either effort or execution. In this case, I appreciate the effort but found the performance unacceptable because of (lack of) substitution patterns.

Coach K is a great coach - maybe not at the Geno or Pop level anymore, but certainly one of the best. But to get to their level, I think he'd need to be more flexible with his entire approach.

Lastly, I've noticed that there are some 'board police' on this board that aren't in evidence on other boards. I suspect that's a source of pride for the community here, but I think it also detracts from the overall quality of the discussion. To each their own of course.
Funny post. Stirring the pot just to stir the pot.

jimmiles
02-13-2017, 03:15 AM
Funny post. Stirring the pot just to stir the pot.

I think I will reserve judgement on Pop and Gino when each has had the experience and success of
coach K

jv001
02-13-2017, 09:36 AM
That's what one experienced and motivated troll can do to a community, unfortunately.

He/She is not the only troll on board, and I'm not talking about you.:cool: GoDuke!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-13-2017, 09:45 AM
He/She is not the only troll on board, and I'm not talking about you.:cool: GoDuke!

No, but s/he is the loudest and most recent.

Also, to clarify a few comments I received... I made my comment replying wayyyy upthread replying to a comment that I agreed with, but responding to the troll. Upon reflection, it wasn't as clear as I intended - I haven't been sleeping very well. Anyway, for the record, I agree 100% with StrayGator.

jv001
02-13-2017, 09:53 AM
No, but s/he is the loudest and most recent.

Also, to clarify a few comments I received... I made my comment replying wayyyy upthread replying to a comment that I agreed with, but responding to the troll. Upon reflection, it wasn't as clear as I intended - I haven't been sleeping very well. Anyway, for the record, I agree 100% with StrayGator.

Agree and I wasn't talking about you either as a troll :cool: GoDuke!

plimnko
02-13-2017, 10:14 AM
i don't get it......a WIN not being acceptable?? by whose standards? a win is a win is a win....... especially a conference win. i think when you consider less than 48 hrs after a tough emotional win against the cheats, to come out and win against a tough physical team like clemson. the team was obviously not well rested, BUT hung on down the stretch to secure a VERY acceptable 2 point win.

elvis14
02-13-2017, 10:34 AM
I attended the game on Saturday and watched it TV/DVR as well. This morning, I read this thread. Both left me feeling a little crappy. Let's start with the game. Yes it was a win, an ACC win and I always appreciate a win. But lets not sugarcoat what we saw because you can play poorly and still win and that's exactly what we did, especially in the second half. Saying that playing poorly is OK as long as it's a win just doesn't help much. They played decent, although uninspired, in the first half and since Clemson couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, an 11 point halftime lead was a good thing. That second half was really just not good basketball on either end of the floor. I would have liked to see a higher quality of play. Why? Because this big game/short turnaround is a perfect precursor to the NCAA tournament I don't think we beat too many teams in the tournament playing like we did Saturday. I do want to point out the two positives for this game. Matt's defense on Clemson's best player was huge and Luke recognizing the need and taking over the scoring lead was also a great thing.

As for this thread, I always hate it when the team plays poorly, and people that mention the poor play (or poor coaching) get grief. Yes, we all know that Coach K is fantastic, knows what he's doing, is considered the GOAT by many (including me). But that doesn't mean that we can't criticize his decision making and it doesn't mean that he doesn't make mistakes. We have won many games because he's done a wonderful job in so many ways. We've also lost games where he's either made mistakes or been out coached. So it's the opinion of some (including me) that Coach K made a mistake by playing a short bench in the second half Saturday. Just because we won doesn't mean we are wrong. We won mostly because the lead we built up using more players in the first half. We all know Coach K likes a short bench but I happen to think the talent we have on the bench is better than in the past and I'd like to see it used, especially when the team is tired and not playing well. For example, Clemson's center had a pretty good day. I would have liked to have seen us send Bolden out there for a while to bang on that big guy. Sure, Bolden may have fouled out but if he's not going to be used anyway, what difference does it make if he fouls out.

Anyway, I'm happy that we won. I hope I can find a ticket to another game. That's the only game I've made it into this year and it makes me want to see another (better) game. The good news is, that my streak continues.....Duke has never lost a game at CIS that I've attended (which is why people should gift me Duke/UNC tix every year). I did enjoy standing with the students in section 17 (even if I was late to the game and stuck in the corner) although I will at admit that being about 30 years older than the students and having played soccer in the morning, I was pretty tired and oh so happy to sit down at halftime.

Anyone have news about Grayson's ankle? In person that didn't look too bad but when I watched in TV...ouch!!

Billy Dat
02-13-2017, 10:50 AM
I didn't get to watch the game in real time and my attempted replay watch on ACC Network was so choppy that I bailed at halftime. It's a lot easier to watch unpretty basketball knowing that we won.

As to the pockets of negativity on the board, this season has been so crazy that it doesn't surprise me. The election season was so contentious and nasty that I think many, I include myself, were looking forward to a jewel of a Duke season based on the preseason expectations. Instead, we've gotten an unprecedented roller coaster which has only recently calmed down. But, with that calm, I think there is a desire to jump to the team we all thought we'd be seeing, which included an extremely effective and impactful Harry Giles. The lack of #1 projected draft pick Harry, and Marquese to a lesser extent, is fueling these unsatisfied feelings because I think many believed we'd be so much better on defense because of the potential for rim protection.

But, the upside is we got a POY candidate Luke Kennard that we didn't anticipate and we've still got some time to get better. But, the repeated mantra of "We won't see the Harry that we thought we'd see" means that we won't see the team we all fantasized about. Still, with the KenPom top 10 littered with 5 and 6 loss teams, I am not scared of Duke playing anyone (doesn't mean I'll be over confident) and we are right in the hunt for major March success (knock wood)

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-13-2017, 11:07 AM
I attended the game on Saturday and watched it TV/DVR as well. This morning, I read this thread. Both left me feeling a little crappy. Let's start with the game. Yes it was a win, an ACC win and I always appreciate a win. But lets not sugarcoat what we saw because you can play poorly and still win and that's exactly what we did, especially in the second half. Saying that playing poorly is OK as long as it's a win just doesn't help much.

Agree 100% - we all have a right to critique as we like. However, what I and many other took umbrage at was the suggestion that Duke fans "should" feel a certain way about the game, and that feeling was dissatisfaction.


I have about ten years experience posting here, and lurked for a long time before that. I know Coach K has earned a lot of leeway, and that some threads devolve into "you can't suggest Coach K should do something different because he has 1k wins." I agree that isn't productive dialogue.

But, a more and more common conversation here seems to he about how fans "should" feel about ESPN/Grayson/UNC/OADs. Perhaps it is just another facet of the polarization of America, but I prefer it when it feels like we are all rooting for the same team.

Indoor66
02-13-2017, 11:25 AM
Agree 100% - we all have a right to critique as we like. However, what I and many other took umbrage at was the suggestion that Duke fans "should" feel a certain way about the game, and that feeling was dissatisfaction.


I have about ten years experience posting here, and lurked for a long time before that. I know Coach K has earned a lot of leeway, and that some threads devolve into "you can't suggest Coach K should do something different because he has 1k wins." I agree that isn't productive dialogue.

But, a more and more common conversation here seems to he about how fans "should" feel about ESPN/Grayson/UNC/OADs. Perhaps it is just another facet of the polarization of America, but I prefer it when it feels like we are all rooting for the same team.

Take "should" out of your vocabulary unless preceded by "I" and leave the last clause off every sentence when you are upset or angry or feeling hurt and your life will go a lot better. Think about it.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-13-2017, 11:35 AM
Take "should" out of your vocabulary unless preceded by "I" and leave the last clause off every sentence when you are upset or angry or feeling hurt and your life will go a lot better. Think about it.

Well stated.

BluDvlsN1
02-13-2017, 11:36 AM
The scoreboad never says How, only how many!
If that doesn't work ..revert to post #47.

elvis14
02-13-2017, 11:41 AM
Agree 100% - we all have a right to critique as we like. However, what I and many other took umbrage at was the suggestion that Duke fans "should" feel a certain way about the game, and that feeling was dissatisfaction.


I have about ten years experience posting here, and lurked for a long time before that. I know Coach K has earned a lot of leeway, and that some threads devolve into "you can't suggest Coach K should do something different because he has 1k wins." I agree that isn't productive dialogue.

But, a more and more common conversation here seems to he about how fans "should" feel about ESPN/Grayson/UNC/OADs. Perhaps it is just another facet of the polarization of America, but I prefer it when it feels like we are all rooting for the same team.

Yeah, I saw your earlier post and this one and I agree with you. I obviously came away happy with the win but unsatisfied with the level of play. I hope that my post doesn't read "you should be unsatisfied because" but that *I* was...that was intent. Telling others that they should be OK with it because it was a win (and/or telling them they are spoiled) or telling them that they should be horrified because of the level of play (and/or calling them an apologist) just isn't necessary/appropriate.

jv001
02-13-2017, 11:44 AM
The scoreboad never says How, only how many!
If that doesn't work ..revert to post #47.

Like the scorecard in golf, you're never asked to draw a picture on the card. You just put down the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 strokes you took on each hole or in the case of some of my playing partners 8,9 or 10. Just win baby, win. GoDuke!

91_92_01_10_15
02-13-2017, 11:56 AM
Take "should" out of your vocabulary unless preceded by "I" and leave the last clause off every sentence when you are upset or angry or feeling hurt and your life will go a lot better. Think about it.

"You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later."

What I was going to say with my spork was, "Good advice."

Indoor66
02-13-2017, 12:01 PM
Like the scorecard in golf, you're never asked to draw a picture on the card. You just put down the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 strokes you took on each hole or in the case of some of my playing partners 8,9 or 10. Just win baby, win. GoDuke!

What about the guys who can't count over six?😂😎

Hancock 4 Duke
02-13-2017, 12:52 PM
Alright now...calling a poster a "troll" for offering an unpopular opinion or failing to successfully delineate said opinion is cancerous to discussion and only perpetuates an echo chamber of sorts...however I have noticed that civil disagreements take place in here a good bit, so it's probably a non-issue.

However, I would like to say that I like our chances against Virginia, as I had a dream about the game during my midday nap and the outcome was in our favor. On a real note, I feel like Matt has a really good shot at shutting Perrantes down, and we can play small ball with them too assuming our defense plays like it did against Carolina. Nervously excited to see how it plays out.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-13-2017, 02:05 PM
What about the guys who can't count over six?😂😎

I doubt there are many Tar Heel athletes on this site.

BluDvlsN1
02-13-2017, 02:12 PM
However, I would like to say that I like our chances against Virginia, as I had a dream about the game during my midday nap and the outcome was in our favor. On a real note, I feel like Matt has a really good shot at shutting Perrantes down, and we can play small ball with them too assuming our defense plays like it did against Carolina. Nervously excited to see how it plays out.

VT won shooting ill advised,ill timed 3's at the net scorching 30.8% rate.
This was accomplished while committing 17 turnovers.

We match up very well with VA I believe and have multiple ways to win.
That said:
Duke is showing up and it's all bets off...;)
We still have to show up, play it well, and close it out!
No easy road wins in the ACC as we are all aware.

VA will be extra dangerous coming off that loss

jv001
02-13-2017, 02:13 PM
I doubt there are many Tar Heel athletes on this site.

They don't worry about the scorecard because they cheat by breaking the rules of golf. Oh, wait that was basketball and football. GoDuke!

DukieInKansas
02-13-2017, 02:33 PM
They don't worry about the scorecard because they cheat by breaking the rules of golf. Oh, wait that was basketball and football. GoDuke!

Can we really count the golf team out? They, too, may have taken the attendance free/assistant graded classes.

Hancock 4 Duke
02-13-2017, 02:41 PM
VT won shooting ill advised,ill timed 3's at the net scorching 30.8% rate.
This was accomplished while committing 17 turnovers.

We match up very well with VA I believe and have multiple ways to win.
That said:
Duke is showing up and it's all bets off...;)
We still have to show up, play it well, and close it out!
No easy road wins in the ACC as we are all aware.

VA will be extra dangerous coming off that loss
Agreed! Worried about UVA coming off of the loss, but if we show up then it'll be great...I feel more confident in our ability to close out games now than I did a few games ago.

BandAlum83
02-13-2017, 02:54 PM
Agreed! Worried about UVA coming off of the loss, but if we show up then it'll be great...I feel more confident in our ability to close out games now than I did a few games ago.

Coming off a loss ain't no big thing. Let's turn coming of a loss to our advantage. Go up early and get them playing tight and questioning themselves.

All we need to do is score 8 or so in our first 3 possessions and the game can take on a GT feel more than an VT feel.

ChillinDuke
02-13-2017, 02:58 PM
Seriously... three weeks ago we were discussing making the tournament, yay or nay, and whether we would finish over .500 in league.

It's a win, in a year that wins don't come easy.

Hahahahaha

So shockingly true. How quick everyone forgets.

- Chillin

OldPhiKap
02-13-2017, 03:05 PM
Can we really count the golf team out? They, too, may have taken the attendance free/assistant graded classes.

We all know that this was only about the women's basketball team. The rest of this is just flibber-flobber.

Atlanta Duke
02-13-2017, 05:08 PM
i don't get it...a WIN not being acceptable?? by whose standards? a win is a win is a win.... especially a conference win. i think when you consider less than 48 hrs after a tough emotional win against the cheats, to come out and win against a tough physical team like clemson. the team was obviously not well rested, BUT hung on down the stretch to secure a VERY acceptable 2 point win.

It just goes with how this team is evaluated, with each game being viewed in isolation by some.

Matt Norlander of CBSSports.com made a very good observation

Duke has basically reached the status of an NFL team, in that many feel compelled to critically evaluate the team based on every single game.

http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/race-to-march-madness-the-20-games-left-in-the-season-you-wont-want-to-miss/

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-13-2017, 05:38 PM
Coming off a loss ain't no big thing. Let's turn coming of a loss to our advantage. Go up early and get them playing tight and questioning themselves.

All we need to do is score 8 or so in our first 3 possessions and the game can take on a GT feel more than an VT feel.

If we had really been committed to turning it into an advantage, we would have let Clemson eke out the win on Saturday so we could have that same advantage of coming off a loss.

BandAlum83
02-13-2017, 07:03 PM
If we had really been committed to turning it into an advantage, we would have let Clemson eke out the win on Saturday so we could have that same advantage of coming off a loss.

Well based on what some out here are saying, it seems that K tried to do exactly that. The kids wouldn't cooperate, though. ;)