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Bud
07-02-2007, 02:33 PM
I know we have not even got a verbal from anyone in the 08 class but I can't stop thinking about how loaded the 09 class is. This is going to be a loaded class trust me and here are some names I here Duke will be recruiting. Reeves Nelson 6"7 PF from CA, Duke has offered him. Kenny Boynton 6"2 PG from FL, he will be getting an offer here soon. Leslie McDonald 6"4 SG from Tenn, Dexter Strickland 6"3 SG from NJ, Terrell Vinson 6"5 F from MD, Daniel Orton 6"8 C from OK, Erik Murphy 6"8 PF from MA, and the guy I really want is Derrick Favors 6"9 PF from GA this guy is nasty. Duke will have a few scholerships to give out in this class I'm hoping for a 4-5 man class these are the names I'm hering if any of you know about any other names please share.

Patrick Yates
07-03-2007, 08:05 AM
...and I love rampant, unfounded, unsupported, and crazy-butt recruiting speculation as much or more than anybody on this board.

I love the question, but it is just way too soon. Normally, here at Duke, we are in a position to speculate about down the road recruiting. That is because Duke is usually more settled, one way or the other. In the past Decade, we have either had a huge incoming class or been really loaded already, or both. Also, the current players were more known quantities than currently exists.

This year, there are simply too many variables to compute. The roster in two years is simply too unknown. There is not a single position where a recruit could look at Duke and say that there will absolutely be a need. In two years, Paulus will definitely be gone (barring injury redshirt), but Nolan Smith could be ready to step in for him.

The post is a possibility, but it could very well be that Zoubek and Thomas have rapidly improved their games and seem poised to gobble up minutes as Seniors (meaning it would be very hard for a freshman, even a supremely talented one, to displace them in Duke's system, simply because the D scheme can be hard to fully grasp immediately). This says nothing of Singler, who could still be at Duke.

Once this year shapes up (ie, we know what BZ and LT's carreer trajectory looks like, and we see how long GH and KS will be in the program) we will have a better grasp on Duke's needs. Also, the recruiting class is murky, later in the summer than in recent memory.

Loathe though we are to admit it, Duke might not get a single recruit this year. Our top two targets, Williams and Monroe, are by no means locks. GM projects as a one year player, so he probably won't factor in to the 2009 class's thinking, but Williams's committment to Duke would all but lock up the perimeter rotation (with Scheyer and Nolan Smith). K might bring in one more, but that would only be in Smith proves completely incapable of running the point, likewise Williams, who looks like a combo guard. If BZ and LT look good this year, the 09 class might take a wait and see approach to see if they were good enough in 08-09 to leave early before committing.

See, there are too many what if's to even wildly speculate about Duke's needs. The only position where Duke might reasonably be thin would be an athletic SF (but any team needs one of those every 1-2 years anyway). Again, our need there depends on recruiting this year and player retention.

I like your list. I would perhaps add Cousins from Bama to the list. Some of the PGs you listed are not currently considering Duke, but that could change in 2 years. The size of your list indicates the very uncertainty of which I speak. Recently, the staff has basically already ID'd the players we will pursue in the Jr class and begun to focus on them. The size of your list indicates that the Staff probably has little more insight on this issue than we do. I predict this will clear up, at least for the staff, after the summer evaluation period.

Let's pick this thread up during the Christmas break, when our needs and targets will be somewhat clearer.

Patrick Yates

ps. I think this year we see a sea change in recruiting. Monroe is taking a wait and see approach. I would not be surprised to see him wait until after the McD's game to make his decision. He is going to wait and see how the entire situation at his top schools play out before committing. If Duke loses nobody early, and BZ and LT develop, and KS delivers on his promise, Duke's front court will be pretty crowded (not to mention GOOD). GM would probably play, a lot, but the others would siphon off shots and minutes from a player who is basically playing to audition for endorsement deals. Sorry folks, but that is the hard cold reality of the recruiting world today.

jimsumner
07-03-2007, 10:42 AM
Highly, highly unlikely that Duke won't sign anyone this season.

kydevil
07-03-2007, 11:02 AM
Agreed, I can't see us not getting one single recruit.

Patrick Yates
07-03-2007, 11:21 AM
Might. Not Won't. Might. Unclench.

Patrick Yates

VaDukie
07-03-2007, 11:22 AM
Highly, highly unlikely that Duke won't sign anyone this season.

Unlikely for certain, but Monroe and Williams are both being heavily targeted. Do you know something about us having an inside track on either one you'd like to share with us? :D

Patrick Yates
07-03-2007, 11:36 AM
Unlikely for certain, but Monroe and Williams are both being heavily targeted. Do you know something about us having an inside track on either one you'd like to share with us? :D

This is my point exactly. We seem to be zeroed in on these two kids, both of whom are highly coveted, and who large, in-state schools are going after hard. Neither one is a cinch.

As for the Olek or Dunigan kids who we may or may not be targeting, who can say when or if we will go after them hard, and what our chances will be with them. If anyone knows something I do not, please speak up.

Patrick Yates

jimsumner
07-03-2007, 01:24 PM
"Do you know something about us having an inside track on either one you'd like to share with us? "

No, I'm not ready to call Ohio for Kerry. :)

My confidence that Duke will sign someone is based on two things. One, when has Duke not signed someone? I can't recall any o-fers. Two, my understanding from multiple sources that Duke is going to be very active and very visible on the summer-camp circuit and that part of that time will be spent evaluating and making contacts with some plan-B candidates.

Williams expects to sign in the fall and it's not impossible that he'll make up his mind sooner, rather than later. Monroe could drag out a bit, which will be good for DBR's spring readership.

In fact, I understand that DBR actually encourages guys like Thomas and Patterson to wait as long as possible in order to generate hits in the down period after the season concludes. BTW, where's the icon for "You know I'm being sardonic, don't you?"

Bud
07-03-2007, 03:57 PM
Patrick not too seem like I'm fighting with you becouse I'm not, becouse your post was good. But most of the player's I listed in 09 Duke is recruiting, you said you were not sure about the list of PG I gave. I only listed one point guard Boynton and Duke is recruiting him and he will be offered soon I believe. You also mentioned Cousins he does list Duke but he is a one and done and is problably a UAB lock, I know that sounds crazy but true. Like I said 09 could be an very important class for Duke, we might not land anybody in 08. Monroe and Williams are the only two targets and many of you think even if we miss on both of them Duke will sign somebody else, problaby not. I like are chances for both of these guys but they are not for sure yet, and buy the time they decide it will be to late for Duke to try to get anybody else. And even if we land Monroe he is more than likley a one and done, and by 09 Henderson and Singler could be gone as well. Like I said I could be wrong but I believe 09 will be an important class for Duke and we will need at least 4 guys from this class

kutter
07-03-2007, 06:24 PM
Maybe this has been discussed a number of times and perhaps we've already got the answer (Nolan Smith) but can I get a pure PG prospect? It seems to me Duke has done best when we have a solid PG or two, ready to run out offense. I'd even argue that Greg isn't really a prototypical PG, but rather more of a combo guy with great vision. Man, we need a PG and we need one bad. I thought K usually recruits a PG to come in when our starting PG is a rising Junior. Well, we didn't get that and I understand, but why aren't there any offers out there for 08? Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I'd at least like to see an offer on the board. What harm could it do and by the way, we need one. Always have.

Mcluhan
07-03-2007, 06:46 PM
Maybe this has been discussed a number of times and perhaps we've already got the answer (Nolan Smith) but can I get a pure PG prospect? It seems to me Duke has done best when we have a solid PG or two, ready to run out offense. I'd even argue that Greg isn't really a prototypical PG, but rather more of a combo guy with great vision. Man, we need a PG and we need one bad. I thought K usually recruits a PG to come in when our starting PG is a rising Junior. Well, we didn't get that and I understand, but why aren't there any offers out there for 08? Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I'd at least like to see an offer on the board. What harm could it do and by the way, we need one. Always have.

Sure, if you're thinking a Hurley or a JWill, we'd be better off!

But I'm not sure we need a PG 'bad'.

For the next couple years I think Greg is it (and I wish he were a bit more "combo guard", but he looks pretty point guard to me). I've been pretty hard on Greg, but I should remind myself that Wojo was considered something of a disappointment halfway through his career. Greg should get better at protecting the ball and making sure everyone knows their roles. With all of these offensive savants coming in, that's what our point guards will need to do.

ACCBBallFan
07-03-2007, 06:49 PM
Highly, highly unlikely that Duke won't sign anyone this season.As usual, gotta agree with Jim.

In fact, with a scholarship sure to open up when Demarcus graduates, I think Duke ought to offer 6' 7" 235 pound Olek Czyz now to have a 4-year big guy, regardless of what happens with Monroe and Williams

Scout.com Player Evaluation:
STRENGTHS
Athleticism
Competitiveness
Plays Facing Basket

AREAS FOR IMPROVEMENT
Perimeter Shot
Post Play


Native of Poland. Power forward has tons of bounce and determination. Thinks everything should be a dunk. Has some face up capabilities. Needs to round out his offense but has the potential to be considered a big conference player.


Biography:
Very bouncy young forward. Shot needs work. Not bad around the basket. Native of Poland has been in the States 3 years. He nips 6-foot-8, bangs what he can inside with surprising athleticism and then tantalizes with a jumper every now and then. Conservatively, he’ll play in a big league. Early love coming from Arizona State, Washington State, Colorado State, Santa Clara, Nevada and Pepperdine.

------------------

Should have plenty of room to recruit in 2009 regardless but bad to have academic class with no players, and Monroe would not be a member for long.

Gotta disagree with others that landing him would not affect 2009 though. It would until recruits are sure he is one and done.

Bud
07-03-2007, 08:44 PM
This will be the roster in 09, sr- Henderson, Scheyer, Thomas, Zoubek. jr- Singler, King, Smith. So- who ever we get in 08, I hope for Monroe, and Williams. Like I said that will leave us at least 3 scholarships for 09. I really believe Henderson will leave after his jr year and if we get Monroe he will be a one and done. If I'm right that means we will have 5 scholarships to give out and will need at least a 4 man class in my opinion. The reason I started this post was to point out how deep the 09 class is, and Duke is recruiting a few of the top players from this class, and we seem to be sitting good with a few of them. My dream class is Boynton, McDonald, Ortan, Reeves, or Favors. That would be the number one class in the nation, problably will never happen but we all can dream. I know a lot of you think it is way to early to be recruiting juniors but today in college basketball you have to recruit these guys this early are you will get in to late for there services.

Bob Green
07-04-2007, 12:34 AM
I enjoy discussing recruiting as it provides me an opportunity to be just as wrong as all the experts. As far as the Class of 2009 goes, yes it is loaded and Duke will be looking at many top prospects. But first, we need to focus on the Class of 2008. Obviously, Greg Monroe and Elliot Williams are the top targets, but as Jim Sumner stated above, the staff will be looking at other prospects over the summer. I expect Duke will sign multiple players from both classes.

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

mgtr
07-04-2007, 06:31 AM
Isn't this the new reality, though? You have to sign the maximum number of players you can, since more guys are leaving early. So, you target two super-good players, but you have your eye on a couple others which you may need to sign.

Saratoga2
07-04-2007, 07:09 AM
Isn't this the new reality, though? You have to sign the maximum number of players you can, since more guys are leaving early. So, you target two super-good players, but you have your eye on a couple others which you may need to sign.

Until Carmelo, some schools would not sign a player that was a sure one and done. Duke seemed to be one of those schools. Now, Monroe is probably one of those players and we are after him as our leading recruit. That is a new reality.

Perhaps another is that Duke has fallen off a little in recruiting power and definitely is not in a position to get just about any recruit. If that was ever the case, it doesn't appear to be that way now.

Bob Green
07-04-2007, 07:21 AM
I'm not convinced that we have lost any recruiting prowess. Over the past two years, we have signed:

Singler, Smith, King, Scheyer, Henderson, Thomas & Zoubek

Currently, we are in the running for Monroe and Williams. The situation with Duke and recruiting is okay.

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

ACCBBallFan
07-04-2007, 09:17 AM
I'm not convinced that we have lost any recruiting prowess. Over the past two years, we have signed:

Singler, Smith, King, Scheyer, Henderson, Thomas & Zoubek

Currently, we are in the running for Monroe and Williams. The situation with Duke and recruiting is okay.

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

Not only would I agree on the double negative, I would say Duke is at or near the top on recruiting the past few years. This is based on one recruiting ranking over several years:

Except in 2007 where there was more data, a score of 21 for example in 2006 means they were rated #5 (26-x); for 2007 use 31-x since there were 30 teams listed. AZ is the only team with a non-zero in all four years,

School 4-yr 2007 2006 2005 2004 School
Duke 68 23 21 24 0 Duke
Kansas 60 0 14 22 24 Kansas
Louisville 57 0 17 21 19 Louisville
Memphis 57 21 0 19 17 Memphis
Texas 55 9 23 0 23 Texas
UCONN 54 0 22 16 16 UCONN
Kentucky 53 18 10 0 25 Kentucky
Washin 53 11 19 23 0 Washington
Arizona 52 26 3 12 11 Arizona
Florida 50 30 6 0 14 Florida
Ohio St 49 25 24 0 0 Ohio State
UCLA 49 20 0 8 21 UCLA
Indiana 44 22 0 0 22 Indiana
Alabama 43 7 0 18 18 Alabama
UNC 42 0 25 17 0 North Carolina
Mich St 40 17 8 0 15 Mich St
Syracuse 31 27 4 0 0 Syracuse
Villanova 31 19 12 0 0 Villanova
GA Tech 29 0 18 6 5 GA Tech
K-State 29 29 0 0 0 K-State
NC State 29 13 0 9 7 NC State
Ms State 28 0 0 20 8 Ms State
Okl State 28 3 0 25 0 Okl State
USC 28 28 0 0 0 USC
Arkansas 24 0 11 0 13 Arkansas
Purdue 24 24 0 0 0 Purdue
Georgetn 21 8 13 0 0 Georgetown
Oregon 20 0 0 0 20 Oregon
Tenness 20 0 20 0 0 Tennessee
Baylor 19 0 9 10 0 Baylor
DePaul 19 15 0 4 0 DePaul
LSU 17 6 0 11 0 LSU
Cincinnai 16 16 0 0 0 Cincinnati
Wake Fot 16 0 16 0 0 Wake Forest
Stanford 15 0 15 0 0 Stanford
UNLV 15 0 0 15 0 UNLV
Georgia 14 0 0 14 0 Georgia
Gonzaga 14 14 0 0 0 Gonzaga
TX Tech 13 0 0 13 0 TX Tech
VA Tech 13 10 0 0 3 VA Tech
AZ State 12 12 0 0 0 AZ State
Misssouri 12 0 0 0 12 Misssouri
Florida S 10 0 0 0 10 Florida State
BYU 9 0 0 0 9 BYU
Maryland 7 0 7 0 0 Maryland
Notre Da 7 0 0 7 0 Notre Dame
Oklahoma 6 4 2 0 0 Oklahoma
Pitt 6 5 0 1 0 Pitt
Vandy 6 0 0 0 6 Vandy
Auburn 5 0 0 5 0 Auburn
TX A&M 5 0 5 0 0 TX A&M
Clemson 4 0 0 0 4 Clemson
Marquett 3 0 0 3 0 Marquette
Dayton 2 0 0 0 2 Dayton
Illinois 2 2 0 0 0 Illinois
Miami FL 2 0 0 2 0 Miami FL
Iowa 1 0 0 0 1 Iowa
St.John's 1 1 0 0 0 St.John's
Wisconsi 1 0 1 0 0 Wisconsin
465 325 325 325 Total

jaimedun34
07-04-2007, 10:03 AM
I think that before the age limit was put into place, schools thought twice about recruiting "one and doners" because there was always the possibility that they would bolt after their SR year in HS. That was a huge waste (I haven't forgiven you, Livingston!):(

jimsumner
07-04-2007, 10:19 AM
"Perhaps another is that Duke has fallen off a little in recruiting power and definitely is not in a position to get just about any recruit. If that was ever the case, it doesn't appear to be that way now."

I don't think that was ever the case. Duke has had some great recruiting classes but Duke has always had misses. During periods of great success, K has missed on high-profile targets like Bryant Stith, Chris Corchianni, Chris Webber, Alan Henderson, Jerry Stackhouse, and Jared Jeffries. K has never "selected" recruits, at least not for very long.

Ignatius07
10-14-2007, 10:17 AM
In the wake of Greg Monroe's commitment to Georgetown, many glass-half-full types have pointed towards the supposedly loaded 09 class as much more important. With that said, what are Duke's priorities in this class? I would think a dominant big man and a true point guard have to be on the list, since Zoubek/Lance would be seniors in fall 09 and Paulus will have graduated.

For ease of use, here (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&pid=88&yr=2009) is Scout.com's Top 100 for 2009.

jimsumner
10-14-2007, 10:54 AM
The two players that we know for certain are high priorities are Kenny Boynton and Hollis Thompson. Duke LOVES both of these kids and will make every effort to bring them in. Duke feels the same way about Leslie McDonald but recognizes that he and Elliott Williams may be mutually exclusive.

Jon Hood a 6'6" perimeter player made an unofficial this past weekend. Combo forwards Reeves Nelson and Jamil Wilson are on the radar. Bigs? Murphy and Echenique. Duke is still evaluating players in this class and the list may well expand. And I may well have forgotten someone.

Despite what you may have read/heard elsewhere, Duke is not currently involved with either Lance Stephenson or Daniel Orton. Could change, of course.

As mentioned on another thread, this a very deep and talented class and Duke probably will look to bring in four players, maybe five if EW goes elsewhere.

Troublemaker
10-14-2007, 10:59 AM
We'll need to get one of everything. Between NBA defections, transfers, and injuries, these days college programs need to get a big class at least every other year. If the '08 class is going to be small, then we'll need at least a 4-man class for '09 and probably a 5 or 6-man class, imo. Let's look at the lineup for the '09-'10 season. Parentheses for Henderson since he might not be here, brackets for Singler since he very likely won't be here.

Jr Smith
Sr Scheyer
(Sr Hendo)
[Jr Singler] Jr King Sr Thomas
Sr Zoubek So Czyz

That's only 6 players that we can count on being here for '09-'10. Throw in the transfer and injury aspects, and it's possibly going to be 5 players. 3 of those 6 players are going to be seniors. We'll need one of everything from the '09 class.

ACCBBallFan
10-15-2007, 08:32 AM
We'll need to get one of everything. Between NBA defections, transfers, and injuries, these days college programs need to get a big class at least every other year. If the '08 class is going to be small, then we'll need at least a 4-man class for '09 and probably a 5 or 6-man class, imo. Let's look at the lineup for the '09-'10 season. Parentheses for Henderson since he might not be here, brackets for Singler since he very likely won't be here.

Jr Smith
Sr Scheyer
(Sr Hendo)
[Jr Singler] Jr King Sr Thomas
Sr Zoubek So Czyz

That's only 6 players that we can count on being here for '09-'10. Throw in the transfer and injury aspects, and it's possibly going to be 5 players. 3 of those 6 players are going to be seniors. We'll need one of everything from the '09 class. The surprising thing about Troublemaker's list is that Duke actually has more depth in front court than in back court, pending what happens with Elliot Williams, as well as with Singler and Henderson.

They need to hope that at least one of Kyle/Gerald is available that year to play the 3 spot.

Ignatius07
10-15-2007, 06:08 PM
Looking at Troublemaker's list, it's clear the big needs are for a 1 and a 5 (yes, I know K doesn't play positions). By most accounts Smith is not a true point guard, and still-our-only-big-man Brian Zoubek would be graduating the same year an 09 recruit is a freshman. I have not seen the complete list of who K is recruiting, but based on what Jim says, it doesn't sound like a burly big man in the Boozer-Brand-Williams mold and a true Duke point guard are the highest priorities, which I think is interesting.

jimsumner
10-15-2007, 06:16 PM
There are some point guards in the class of '10 that Duke likes a great deal. Boynton certainly can play point. He's probably best described as a lead guard in the Dawkins-Jason Williams mold.

Bud
10-17-2007, 11:09 AM
I'm not one who thinks Duke recruiting is down. Believe me I wanted Monroe is bad as anybody he is a great player and would of helped a lot. But like I have stated before on here the 09 class will be the biggest class for Duke recruiting in a long time. Duke will have at least 4 scollerships to give out at least depending on Elliot Williams desicion which we will find out on Nov 2nd. I believe we will have more than 4 but we will have to wait and see I think if Duke does not have a great recruiting class in 09 then this program will be in a mess, this class will make are break are program for a while I promise you. Duke has got of to a quick start recruiting in 09 that should help us. If you look at the probable roster for 09-10 we will have as seniors Zoubek Thomas schyer and Henderson. Juniors Singler Smith King. Soph we only have Czyz right now I'm not counting on Williams. Henderson will not be here and Singler might not be either that only leaves 6 guys. Now guys I know Duke is recruiting in 09 are, Kenny Boynton, Hollis Thopson, Reeves Nelson and Greg Enchenique. Also guys that Duke are evaluating are have shown intrest in Duke are Lance Stephenson, Jamil Wilson, Deshawn Painter, Daniel Orton, Leslie McDonald, Royce White and Erik Murphy. If anybody else has any other names please share. Do you guys agree are disagree with me that the 09 class will be big for are program.

NYC Duke Fan
10-27-2007, 07:23 AM
If Elliot Williams does not choose Duke, ( an article indicates he is favoring Memphis and Tennessee over Duke ),who is Coach K looking at for next year ?

JasonEvans
10-27-2007, 07:57 AM
If Elliot Williams does not choose Duke, ( an article indicates he is favoring Memphis and Tennessee over Duke ),who is Coach K looking at for next year ?

It is entirely possible that after 3 consecutive classes all rated among the top 3 or so in the land that we will only get Olek Czyz for the class of 2008. I am not aware of Duke aggressively going after anyone else in that class. We may get involved with someone late if we see a need, but I am not sure there is all that much of a need anyway-- especially when you consider how relatively weak the 2008 high school class is.

--Jason "many recruiting services still list us in the running for Riek, but everything I hear is that Riek is going NBA and Duke is no longer interested" Evans

arnie
10-27-2007, 09:56 AM
If we don't bring any other point guards in next year, it appears imperative that Nolan Smith play numerous minutes at the point this year. We will need his experience after Paulus leaves - if not, we will rely entirely on a freshman point guard in 2009-2010.

mgtr
10-27-2007, 10:21 AM
OK, color me confused. As I figure it, Paulus will definitely be here next year. And, assuming he stays, Smith will be here next year and the year you listed, 09/10, at which point he would be a junior. Possibly I missed something, however. Maybe you figure Smith won't stay beyond two years -- in which case it doesn't matter how much he plays this year.
I do agree, however, that Smith will play a lot of point this year. Certainly all the minutes that Scheyer played at point last year, plus I would think that Paulus' minutes will be cut some since we are going to play a running game.

ACCBBallFan
10-27-2007, 11:01 AM
OK, color me confused. As I figure it, Paulus will definitely be here next year. And, assuming he stays, Smith will be here next year and the year you listed, 09/10, at which point he would be a junior. Possibly I missed something, however. Maybe you figure Smith won't stay beyond two years -- in which case it doesn't matter how much he plays this year.
I do agree, however, that Smith will play a lot of point this year. Certainly all the minutes that Scheyer played at point last year, plus I would think that Paulus' minutes will be cut some since we are going to play a running game.

Jon Scheyer not being forced to play out of position at PG now that Nolan is on board can only help his game. He had a lot thrown at him his freshman year and handled it well til he eventually wore down physically and mentally at end of last season.

Same is true for Nelson being a better defender of fast guards thanks to Nolan and Greg having a viable backup not only in games but also a bona fide PG to practice against every day so each improve their repsective games.

So three guys improve as a result of one recruit and same benefits would accrue if Elliot Williams does commit to Duke both for Elliot and his future teammates.

I suspect one way or the other Elliot Williams is Duke's final 2008 recruit. Other than the downstream impact in senior leadership several years from now, Duke can afford to wait as long as they land a mega class again in class of 2009.

A lot depends on how well Zoubek and Lance play and how well Singler and King and McClure play if the former are not playing well enough.

watzone
10-27-2007, 11:21 AM
I have a complete 2009 update breaking down all the targets in my premium section at BDN. For those who are interested of course ... the list is quite accurate;)

jimsumner
10-27-2007, 12:22 PM
Andre Buckner and Andre Sweet were the most recent fallback recruits for Duke. So somewhere in this great land, there's a high school senior named Andre waiting for the call.

arnie
10-27-2007, 02:15 PM
We are hoping for the same thing - that Nolan Smith can get valuable minutes as PG this year and next. The concern is that maybe he can't really play the point and/or Paulus plays 38 minutes a game at point over the next 2years.

Indoor66
10-27-2007, 05:48 PM
We are hoping for the same thing - that Nolan Smith can get valuable minutes as PG this year and next. The concern is that maybe he can't really play the point and/or Paulus plays 38 minutes a game at point over the next 2years.

I don't have a concern about Paulus playing major minutes this year or for the next 2 years. If he is doing so it means that he is playing well.

novablue4
10-28-2007, 11:01 AM
I have a complete 2009 update breaking down all the targets in my premium section at BDN. For those who are interested of course ... the list is quite accurate;)

Watzone, how can I get to BDN? Is it a pay site? I know from your previous posts that you are very knowledgeable. Would love to see your list, join the site, so on.

Turtleboy
10-28-2007, 02:50 PM
Watzone, how can I get to BDN? Is it a pay site? I know from your previous posts that you are very knowledgeable. Would love to see your list, join the site, so on.http://myblogdevils.eponym.com/blog

OZZIE4DUKE
10-28-2007, 04:26 PM
Andre Buckner and Andre Sweet were the most recent fallback recruits for Duke. So somewhere in this great land, there's a high school senior named Andre waiting for the call.

That's very funny, Jim. Something I would expect from Carlos! :D

SilkyJ
10-28-2007, 05:15 PM
We are hoping for the same thing - that Nolan Smith can get valuable minutes as PG this year and next. The concern is that maybe he can't really play the point and/or Paulus plays 38 minutes a game at point over the next 2years.

I don't think there's any doubt that he can be, at a minimum, capable at the PG right now, which I would only expect to improve year over year. Not to mention his defensive prowess will be HUGE for this team when Zoubek isn't in. Stopping penetration will make or break many games, imo. Glad to hear somewhere else that Paulus looks better defensively

Uncle Drew
10-28-2007, 05:26 PM
The two players that we know for certain are high priorities are Kenny Boynton and Hollis Thompson. Duke LOVES both of these kids and will make every effort to bring them in. Duke feels the same way about Leslie McDonald but recognizes that he and Elliott Williams may be mutually exclusive.

Jon Hood a 6'6" perimeter player made an unofficial this past weekend. Combo forwards Reeves Nelson and Jamil Wilson are on the radar. Bigs? Murphy and Echenique. Duke is still evaluating players in this class and the list may well expand. And I may well have forgotten someone.

Despite what you may have read/heard elsewhere, Duke is not currently involved with either Lance Stephenson or Daniel Orton. Could change, of course.

As mentioned on another thread, this a very deep and talented class and Duke probably will look to bring in four players, maybe five if EW goes elsewhere.


Jim, for the love of Mary PLEASE tell me Duke is targeting players taller than 6'6". Where are the centers and power forwards? Where is the height? Where is the wide body in the lane for rebounding? Everyone sees weaknesses and holes in this years team and to be frank I don't see them being addressed next year or the year after that. I love tallented guards and small forwards as much as the next guy. But unless this Thompson kid has arms as long as telephone poles how is that going to help down low against BIG men?

jimsumner
10-28-2007, 06:07 PM
Greg Echenique and Eric Murphy are the two big men generally acknowledged as Duke targets. Duke is evaluating others.

DukeBlood
10-28-2007, 06:23 PM
This may be a little off topic, but recruiting none the less.

Does anyone know where we stand with John Riek?

and can anyone confirm that Elliot Williams is leaning towards Memphis or Tenn?

kramerbr
10-28-2007, 06:47 PM
Greg Echenique and Eric Murphy are the two big men generally acknowledged as Duke targets. Duke is evaluating others.

From what I have read earlier on this board Echenique is the "raw" big body type and Murphy seems to lack the size to be a significant inside force. If the class of '09 is so much deeper then '08 why are these two guys are top post prospects?

jimsumner
10-28-2007, 07:08 PM
Part of the evaluation process I mentioned is academic.

Echenique is 6'8", 240. Raw? Probably, but we're talking about a player with two years left in high school so it's not like he doesn't have time to refine his skills. He plays in a top program, btw.

Murphy is 6'9", 215 or so. Very skilled. Probably a 4 in most people's system but Duke has a history of using people with his size/skill set effectively as
5s. As with Echenique, keep in mind that we're talking about someone just beginning his junior season in high school, so he should fill out before he shows up for college in the fall of '09.

Part of recruiting is trying to project what will and will not happen to recruits down the road. As players committ earlier and earlier, that component becomes even more important.

JasonEvans
10-28-2007, 09:18 PM
Does anyone know where we stand with John Riek?

and can anyone confirm that Elliot Williams is leaning towards Memphis or Tenn?

According to most sources we have zero interest in Riek at this point and he has only the smallest of interest in even attending college. He is in prep school this year and appears to be elligible for the NBA draft. That is where he wants to go and Duke has no interest in him if that is his attitude about college.

Yes, there is someone who can confirm how Elliot Williams is leaning. Elliot Williams can confirm it. I would imagine that Elliot's mom and dad and perhaps a close friend or two may also have an idea what he is thinking. The rest of us wait until November 2nd to find out. It is not much longer to wait. No big deal.

--Jason "folks, striking out in the 08 class is just not that big a deal for us" Evans

DukeBlood
10-28-2007, 11:01 PM
According to most sources we have zero interest in Riek at this point and he has only the smallest of interest in even attending college. He is in prep school this year and appears to be elligible for the NBA draft. That is where he wants to go and Duke has no interest in him if that is his attitude about college.

Yes, there is someone who can confirm how Elliot Williams is leaning. Elliot Williams can confirm it. I would imagine that Elliot's mom and dad and perhaps a close friend or two may also have an idea what he is thinking. The rest of us wait until November 2nd to find out. It is not much longer to wait. No big deal.

--Jason "folks, striking out in the 08 class is just not that big a deal for us" Evans


Ahh, Alright. I have been gone for a few months now. So i havent been able to keep up on any of the recruiting guru gossip.

Thank you for the info on John Riek. Thats too bad, He would of been a great Center.

As for Elliot Williams.. Of Course he could confirm and a few others. But i meant on this bored(as you know). No need to be a smart... About it. I had no idea he was deciding in a few days. As i said, I have been gone. So im sorry i havent heard anything.

Once again, Thank you for the info.

SilkyJ
10-28-2007, 11:14 PM
i think jason was trying to nip any possible rumor mongering before we get another patrick patterson on our hands...here's to friday...that denzel movie comes out too, pretty psyched for that...

JasonEvans
10-29-2007, 05:31 AM
i think jason was trying to nip any possible rumor mongering before we get another patrick patterson on our hands...here's to friday...that denzel movie comes out too, pretty psyched for that...

Exactly, thanks Silky. My poor attempt at humor could have come off as being rude. I was just trying to say that there is no reason to listen to the rumors at this point because no one really knows and we are quite close to finding out the final result from the only person whose opinion matters. Frankly, recruiting rumors are pretty worthless, as we learned just days ago from Greg Monroe (rumor was it would be hometown LSU vs. childhood favorite Duke with no mention of Gtown).

--Jason "I swear, if one more person asks about Riek I am going to ban them for repetitive ranting ;)" Evans

watzone
11-15-2007, 08:19 AM
Duke is taking a look at several players in the class of 2009. This will give you a little insight into Deshawn Painter or Booker T. Washington High School. You will have to stomach a paragraph which is a pitch for the Blue Devil Nation Premium Newsletter.

2009 Prospect Deshawn Painter (http://myblogdevils.eponym.com/blog/_archives/2007/11/15/3354026.html)

Patrick Yates
11-16-2007, 08:52 AM
http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=740253 scroll down

This could really sting. Apparantly there is some expectation that one of Duke's top targets in 09, the above mentioned Hollis Thompson, is expected to committ any day now. To Georgetown. This is not definite, but Meyer (the above link) is the guy who predicted that G-Town was a surprise co-favorite with Duke for Mr. Monroe, so his stuff is pretty good. He is rarely wrong on his predicitions, but it is a rumor. Not a baseless rumor, but not written in stone either.

IF it is true, Ouch.

G-Town is really emerging as a serious rival to Duke. As a university, they have a similiar academic reputation to Duke. Their campus style is a direct opposite of Duke, but it has its charms. I spent a Summer interning in DC and lived in G-Town, and it was a nice scene.

Losing yet another of our top recruits, and currently Hollis might've been our primary target in 09, to the Hoyas hurts. Especially since Hollis didn't visit Durham. Now, I know he cannot sign for a year, and anything could happen, but K is way too nice to keep recruiting a kid who has already committed. I doubt that K has ever done this, and I doubt he ever will. So, Hollis MAY be off the board. Many on the board were projecting Hollis as a potential replacement for Hendo because Hollis is a very athletic wing in the GH mold. Not quite as athletic, but a little bigger at 6-7. He would have really fit in well at Duke.

Does anyone know what Duke's contingency plans at the wing would be? I know that we have at least 4 guys capable of playing the SG role, with Pocius and Williams being athletic guys who could play the SF role, but a true, athletic WF would not go amiss. Williams and Marty can handle it but neither is above 6-4, so they are a little undersized for the position (and the rail thin Williams too light to step in at the SF for any extended time).

What is the NEXT PLAY, should Hollis be Hoya bound?

Patrick Yates

freedevil
11-16-2007, 08:58 AM
I want 18 big men in the 09 class to commit to Duke. 18 I say!

JasonEvans
11-16-2007, 11:13 AM
If Hollis Thompson is ready to commit I cannot imagine it would be Duke. I am not even sure we have officially offered a scholarship yet, have we?

--Jason "he would be a HUGE get for GTown -- JT III is THE STUD recruiter right now" Evans

Troublemaker
11-16-2007, 11:48 AM
http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=740253 scroll down
Losing yet another of our top recruits, and currently Hollis might've been our primary target in 09, to the Hoyas hurts.

You can't lose what you don't have. As JE mentioned, it's doubtful Hollis even had a schollie offer from Duke. But you're right, if Hollis verbals to G'town, then Duke will stop recruiting him. That goes without saying.

I think Kenny Boynton is Duke's "primary target" if there is one. Within Duke's potential '09 recruiting class, Boynton will probably be the Singler to everyone else's Smith and King, if that makes sense. He's the "special" player that we're recruiting from this class.

watzone
11-16-2007, 01:42 PM
They've already stopped. Hollis to Georgetown. It's in the books. Kenny Boynton is the main target.

jimsumner
11-16-2007, 02:36 PM
I'm wondering if Painter could turn into a 3. Then there's Terrell Vinson, maybe Armwood, maybe Jon Hood. Or maybe Elliott Williams grows into a 6'5", 6'6" wing.

mepanchin
11-16-2007, 03:49 PM
http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=740253 scroll down

Losing yet another of our top recruits, and currently Hollis might've been our primary target in 09, to the Hoyas hurts.

Patrick Yates

My understanding is that this has been known for some time, or at least suspected. I was always under the impression that our two biggest targets were Boynton and Echenique.

Scoring Point
11-16-2007, 04:22 PM
How about Lance Stephenson, a 6-5 wing from Brooklyn who is rated above Thompson by several analysts? I have seen Duke listed in the mix for him in some spots, but not in others.

Duke79UNLV77
11-16-2007, 04:32 PM
Greg Echenique and Eric Murphy are the two big men generally acknowledged as Duke targets. Duke is evaluating others.

For what it's worth, Rivals has these two rated at #'s 45 and 34, respectively. Granted, they're have been a lot of collegiate All-Americans who were rated lower in high school, and we have a great track record for evaluating talent. That being said, I guess I'm surprised that we aren't targeting some top 10-15 bigs, given the impression I had after we missed on Monroe that we were teed up for a monster haul from the loaded class of 2009.

Of course, I know academics and character issues also factor into our selection process. I still prefer our way as opposed to Ol Roy's strategy of offering scholarships to practically every top 10 recruit in the country in years that he's recruiting hard.

jimsumner
11-16-2007, 09:36 PM
I believe a number of evaluators have Echenique much higher than 45.

duketaylor
11-16-2007, 10:41 PM
Seems to me K is somewhat content with his frontcourt as it is and has started focusing more on "athletes" than someone with size.
FWIW, a buddy of mine has met and spoken with Taylor King's dad; Taylor is 6'7.5" and has a wingspan of 7', doesn't mind playing inside and obviously enjoys shooting the ball from deep. He absolutely loves everything about Duke and his dad has rented an apt in Durham so he can attend many games. It appears this is not an unusual occurrence (the apartment part of that).
I also heard part of K's show on XM radio this past Wednesday and he's pumped about this season and this team. He thinks they can be special. Plus, he compares Singler's game to Battier's, and that says an awful lot. Let's hope so;)

Bob Green
11-16-2007, 11:58 PM
Some 2009 rankings according to Scouts.com:

Jamil Wilson - 6
DeShawn Painter - 8
Kenny Boynton - 9
DaShonte Riley - 16
Leslie McDonald - 18
Reeves Nelson - 30
Greg Echenique - 37
Erik Murphy - 41

Carlos
11-17-2007, 07:42 AM
How about Lance Stephenson, a 6-5 wing from Brooklyn who is rated above Thompson by several analysts? I have seen Duke listed in the mix for him in some spots, but not in others.

That's not going to happen. While Stephenson is a great player Duke doesn't have a ton of interest.

Troublemaker
11-17-2007, 10:30 AM
Seems to me K is somewhat content with his frontcourt as it is and has started focusing more on "athletes" than someone with size.

What makes you say that? Echenique is a center with size and not terribly athletic. And Boynton, while a good athlete, is arguably the most skilled player in the class of '09. Those two appear to be major targets for Duke at this point.

heath_harshman4
11-17-2007, 03:50 PM
According to Scout.com Elliot Williams has officially commited to Duke. Good Pickup, replacement in the back court for Demarcus Nelson.

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=2682422

and as far as no interest for Riek, Scout has it as Duke is one of is top 4 schools and has offered him a scholarship...

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3291662

the first link is Elliot Williams,
the second is John Riek

mepanchin
11-17-2007, 04:13 PM
Those aren't always accurate. Scout also lists Boynton as not having an offer from Duke, and he does.

shadycharacter
11-18-2007, 02:00 AM
Why doesn't Czyz get more attention here, and especially as a next year addition to the frontcourt?

I'm on the West Coast, so have never seen him play.....but just from the fact that in 2008 class we offered only Czyz, Monroe, and Williams, seems the staff must have rated all three quite highly for Duke's system, and that likely part of their confidence about the front court in 2008 and 2009 is due to his being aboard.

Thoughts?

Bob Green
11-18-2007, 02:04 AM
I agree with you! Duke fans need to pay more attention to Czyz. He is 6'8" 235 lbs and extremely athletic. IMO, he will be a valuable addition to the team.

Jumbo
11-18-2007, 02:08 AM
According to Scout.com Elliot Williams has officially commited to Duke. Good Pickup, replacement in the back court for Demarcus Nelson.

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=2682422

and as far as no interest for Riek, Scout has it as Duke is one of is top 4 schools and has offered him a scholarship...

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3291662

the first link is Elliot Williams,
the second is John Riek

The Williams news is old (but good). Duke is not recruiting John Riek.

JasonEvans
11-18-2007, 06:59 AM
Why doesn't Czyz get more attention here, and especially as a next year addition to the frontcourt?

I'm on the West Coast, so have never seen him play.....but just from the fact that in 2008 class we offered only Czyz, Monroe, and Williams, seems the staff must have rated all three quite highly for Duke's system, and that likely part of their confidence about the front court in 2008 and 2009 is due to his being aboard.

Thoughts?

I think the consensus is that Czyz, while very athletic and strong, is still quite raw and may need time to adjust to the college game. Still, dude has a strong frame and look like he never misses a session in the weight room. I could see him carving out a niche for himself next season as an energy guy on the inside who just dunks and rebounds and pushes guys off the blocks.

Once a kid gives you a solid verbal, interest in him seems to fade until he gets closer to actually coming to school. With the real basketball season just underway, it is just hard for folks to get too worked up about recruiting, know what I mean?

--Jason "http://www.fullctpress.net/i/m%20All%20American/Olek_Czyz_-_Article.JPG "Evans

Patrick Yates
11-18-2007, 11:22 AM
I agree with you! Duke fans need to pay more attention to Czyz. He is 6'8" 235 lbs and extremely athletic. IMO, he will be a valuable addition to the team.

I have a slight quibble with this evaluation. I just got my new copy of the Prepstars Handbook, and they evaluate Czyz in this edition. I generally trust their evaluations, once you get arround a slight tendancy to build up UNC recruits (and this is starting to recede as Gibbons lessens his workload). The fact that Olek was evaluated in this edition is good, because it means the editors think he is one of the top 50 or so prospects in the nation.

Anyhoo, there is a slight asterix next to the "good athlete" tag. They admit that Olek is a great leaper, but they really questioned his lateral quickness. Also, the consensus is that he is not 6-8, but rather 6-7 and some change. Also, his skills need refinement, as Jason said. He will be great in transition, which will be great next year assuming K continues to run (given our likely roster next year, this is pretty bloody likely).

I know that the staff will improve Olek's lateral movement, and his skills, but I really see Olek as the kind of guy who is really quiet next year. For better or worse, he is a little undersized for a true post (at least height wise), and his skill set is probably not yet adequate in the half court. And, we know nothing of his defensive prowess, which is a key for getting PT at Duke. So I doubt he will be a great help to Duke in the post next year. We need to back off that thought, cause it will lead to unwarranted disappointment.

That said, Olek is the kind of Diamond in the rough that Duke really has not had in the last Decade, or more. He is a guy that might barely help next year, but who then turns into an All-ACC player by his Jr and Sr year as his skills catch up with his body/athleticism.

But, we need to stop expecting him to be a stud athlete from day 1. Simply jumping high does not a great athlete make. Straight-line speed, and lateral quickness, are key components in the great athlete mix. I don't know if Olek has those things, but they can be developed.

Patrick Yates

Bob Green
11-18-2007, 02:20 PM
I agree with you! Duke fans need to pay more attention to Czyz. He is 6'8" 235 lbs and extremely athletic. IMO, he will be a valuable addition to the team.


I have a slight quibble with this evaluation.

I admit I went overboard by using the word "extremely." I modify my statement to read "He is 6'8" 235 lbs and athletic."


...Olek is the kind of Diamond in the rough that Duke really has not had in the last Decade, or more. He is a guy that might barely help next year, but who then turns into an All-ACC player by his Jr and Sr year as his skills catch up with his body/athleticism.

But, we need to stop expecting him to be a stud athlete from day 1. Simply jumping high does not a great athlete make. Straight-line speed, and lateral quickness, are key components in the great athlete mix. I don't know if Olek has those things, but they can be developed.

Patrick Yates

I agree with you 100 percent. I did not mean to imply that Olek Czyz would be an impact player as a freshman. However, he is a recruit that Duke fans should be excited about for the future.

NYC Duke Fan
11-20-2007, 04:43 PM
I know that this has been asked before, but I do not remember the answers.Sorry for having to repeat the post.

I assume that 2008 recruiting is done for Coach K.

Who are his targets for 2009?

VaDukie
11-20-2007, 04:45 PM
For big men, it sounds like Reeves Nelson and DeShawn Painter are our main targets.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=18166

watzone
11-20-2007, 04:53 PM
For big men, it sounds like Reeves Nelson and DeShawn Painter are our main targets.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=18166

Uhh, no. Echenique, Painter and Murphy. Nelson is out.

gofurman
01-20-2008, 05:38 PM
tell me again Duke's targets for the next year - Ater Mojak / Echinique (Sp?) / Murphy - committed to where ? / others ? If you could list them with heights , weights I would most appreciate it .... thanks!

MikeS
01-20-2008, 07:23 PM
I was wondering if we are done recruiting for next year? Is there any chance we could add another big before 2009?

watzone
01-20-2008, 07:37 PM
I was wondering if we are done recruiting for next year? Is there any chance we could add another big before 2009?


Elliot Williams and Olek Czyz are likely to be the only two players Duke will get in 2008. However, there is always a chance, or should I say a slim chance that one more guy will suddenly appear.

gofurman
01-20-2008, 07:49 PM
Boynton and Echinique (sp?) and Painter and Riley and Mojak? Are those our 5 targets now that Murphy has gone to Florida ...is that right?

jimsumner
01-20-2008, 08:01 PM
Kenny Boynton (6'2"), Greg Echenique (6'9"), and Leslie McDonald (6'4") all have scholarship offers. DeShawn Painter is one of a number of 4/5s who is on the radar. I think it is premature at best to consider Majok to be a target. A lot of questions need to be answered regarding his academics.

Ignatius07
01-20-2008, 09:58 PM
Majok is in the class of 2008, if I'm not mistaken.

gofurman
01-20-2008, 09:58 PM
Kenny Boynton (6'2"), Greg Echenique (6'9"), and Leslie McDonald (6'4") all have scholarship offers. DeShawn Painter is one of a number of 4/5s who is on the radar. I think it is premature at best to consider Majok to be a target. A lot of questions need to be answered regarding his academics.


Thanks for the info...go duke

tommy
01-20-2008, 10:49 PM
Uhh, no. Echenique, Painter and Murphy. Nelson is out.

With all the hand-wringing, justified or not, re: recruiting on these boards recently, the one thing everyone seemingly agrees on is that at this point Echenique is a crucial recruit. So the question is: has he given any indication when he's going to announce a decision --early like Murphy did, or is he going to wait awhile? Thanks.

watzone
01-21-2008, 10:57 AM
With all the hand-wringing, justified or not, re: recruiting on these boards recently, the one thing everyone seemingly agrees on is that at this point Echenique is a crucial recruit. So the question is: has he given any indication when he's going to announce a decision --early like Murphy did, or is he going to wait awhile? Thanks.

It will likely be in the late Spring of this year. Could go longer.

Patrick Yates
01-21-2008, 04:24 PM
http://duke.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=764288

Previously, I have been "somewhat down" on K's recruiting strategy when it comes to bigs.

For the record, I would still prefer the staff to cast a wider net, and to pursue the crem de la crem bigs, even if those players project as 1 and dones.

Still, I have to give credit when it is due.

Echenique might turn into a steal, if he does commit soon. Several people, me included, have been skeptical regarding Echenique, given his relatively low ranking. That ranking could really change over the next year and a half.

Currently, he plays on the same HS team as Semardo Samuels. Both are wide body, low post bangers. Samuels is older, and he has been the focus of the team's low post efforts. Given how most College coaches can't use two low posts together, it is not surprising that a HS coach might not excell at it. Nevertheless, Echenique is putting up solid numbers.

Without Samuels, I think Greg might be putting up very good HS numbers and be firmly esconed in the top 20 or so prospects. Samuels is gobbling up shots and boards that Echenique might otherwise get.

Echenique's modest ranking is not entirely due to the presence of an older, similiar post player. Something that I had been hesitant to post about was Echenique's conditioning. Getting in shape is hard, and I wasn't going to pubilicly castigate a kid for carrying arround a few extra pounds. But, privately I did worry that it would hold him back, or adversly affect his ranking, ability to contribute, etc.

I now bring this up because the article makes it clear that Echenique is really working on this aspect of his game. This was something that affected Brand as well. He was so good, and naturally talented, that it was never apparant, but he had never lifted weights before hitting Duke. At least, not seriously. The summer after his frosh year, he hit the weights hard, and his soph year was a thing of beauty.

If, and it looks more and more likely, Echenique gets into shape, he could solve a lot of Duke's problems when/if he gets here. I think a lot of scouts/evaluators seem to have had the same qualms as me, thus his modest ranking. He has tons of promise, but conditioning has derailed kids with much more talent than him. As he gets into shape, and Semardo graduates, I really expect Echenique to shoot up the rankings. He may or may not crack the top 10, but I expect him to be solidly in the top 15 or so by the end of next year.

So, again, while I think that there are some flaws in the overall recruiting strategy, Echenique is starting to look like a kid who can handle the load. For those who have questioned his low ranking, that could soon change in a real big way.

Patrick Yates

Bob Green
01-21-2008, 04:44 PM
http://duke.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=764288

Currently, he plays on the same HS team as Semardo Samuels. Both are wide body, low post bangers. Samuels is older, and he has been the focus of the team's low post efforts. Given how most College coaches can't use two low posts together, it is not surprising that a HS coach might not excell at it. Nevertheless, Echenique is putting up solid numbers.

Patrick Yates

I agree with you that Echenique's ranking will improve. As far as playing alongside another big man, St. Benedict's Prep actually starts three big men. Class of 2010 forward Tristan Thompson is the third one.

yancem
01-22-2008, 08:49 AM
It will likely be in the late Spring of this year. Could go longer.

I thought I read that he was going to wait until fall. Of course I can't remember where I read it (I think its was one of the articles about his possible interest in Miami) so who knows if that's accurate.

yancem
01-22-2008, 08:54 AM
http://duke.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=764288

Previously, I have been "somewhat down" on K's recruiting strategy when it comes to bigs.

For the record, I would still prefer the staff to cast a wider net, and to pursue the crem de la crem bigs, even if those players project as 1 and dones.

Still, I have to give credit when it is due.

Echenique might turn into a steal, if he does commit soon. Several people, me included, have been skeptical regarding Echenique, given his relatively low ranking. That ranking could really change over the next year and a half.

Currently, he plays on the same HS team as Semardo Samuels. Both are wide body, low post bangers. Samuels is older, and he has been the focus of the team's low post efforts. Given how most College coaches can't use two low posts together, it is not surprising that a HS coach might not excell at it. Nevertheless, Echenique is putting up solid numbers.

Without Samuels, I think Greg might be putting up very good HS numbers and be firmly esconed in the top 20 or so prospects. Samuels is gobbling up shots and boards that Echenique might otherwise get.

Echenique's modest ranking is not entirely due to the presence of an older, similiar post player. Something that I had been hesitant to post about was Echenique's conditioning. Getting in shape is hard, and I wasn't going to pubilicly castigate a kid for carrying arround a few extra pounds. But, privately I did worry that it would hold him back, or adversly affect his ranking, ability to contribute, etc.

I now bring this up because the article makes it clear that Echenique is really working on this aspect of his game. This was something that affected Brand as well. He was so good, and naturally talented, that it was never apparant, but he had never lifted weights before hitting Duke. At least, not seriously. The summer after his frosh year, he hit the weights hard, and his soph year was a thing of beauty.

If, and it looks more and more likely, Echenique gets into shape, he could solve a lot of Duke's problems when/if he gets here. I think a lot of scouts/evaluators seem to have had the same qualms as me, thus his modest ranking. He has tons of promise, but conditioning has derailed kids with much more talent than him. As he gets into shape, and Semardo graduates, I really expect Echenique to shoot up the rankings. He may or may not crack the top 10, but I expect him to be solidly in the top 15 or so by the end of next year.

So, again, while I think that there are some flaws in the overall recruiting strategy, Echenique is starting to look like a kid who can handle the load. For those who have questioned his low ranking, that could soon change in a real big way.

Patrick Yates

4-4 from the lines sounds pretty good as well!

freedevil
01-22-2008, 08:57 AM
The article linked on the DBR front page about Kenny Boynton made me with nervous with excitement. This kid sounds incredible.

2001dukechamps
01-22-2008, 09:28 AM
Yea I just read the article, I seriously think we can make a run to a couple of NCAA titles with that kid. He reminds so much of J-Will on and off the court. The scary part about that article is he said he is looking for a good relationship with a coach and he and his parents are looking for a good school academically. And he said he is looking for a place where he can run and push the pace. He is PERFECT for Duke.

Patrick Yates
01-22-2008, 02:00 PM
As we have no committments yet, lets not get ahead of ourselves.

Based on what is available, from credible sources, I agree that we are in good shape with Boynton. I am less sure of our standing with Echenique. I think we are one of his leaders, but he is almost 8 months from making a binding commitment.

But we need to realize our priorities. Boynton would probably be the best player that we bring in. But a few points:

1. He is not a J-Will clone. I don't really think he compares to any player that Duke has ever had before. He is apparantly a better shooter now than J-Will was when he left, and much better than when J-Will arrived. He seems to be quicker than J-Will. But Kenny is nowhere near as strong as J-Will, who was a 195lb rock when he arrived. J-Will used that strength to create a wedge with his upper body to get past his opponent, and then drove hard. Whereas J-Will would finish with a dunk, Boynton seems to be more of a pull up jumper or twisting lay up kind of guy. He is fast, but is not a spectacular leaper. He is very successful, but he is a different type of player than J-Will. Really different. J-Will's pg skills were more refined, whereas Boynton is more of a pure scorer at this point. He is working on his PG skills, as his size kind of dictates that he has to play there in the NBA.

But, again, different game than J-Will. Maybe better, maybe not. But different. Really, the two names shouldn't be mentioned together unless some member of the staff says otherwise.

2. We need a post. Boynton may be the best player we bring in, should it happen. He might be the best by a very wide margin. But he is not the most important. We need a post from the 09 class. Period. We have problems in the inside, and a wide body is the cure for what ails us. Thomas and Zoubs might never be the guys in the post. LT looked good last game, but we need that consistently. And still, he is too small to be the low post banger that would push us over the top. Echenique is the most important player in the class, barring our involvement with a superior post player.

Boynton is probably a impact player, but he is a guard. When he arrives, we will have, at worst, Smith, Scheyer, Williams, and Pocius. We don't really need any more than that. I will take those three guys and go to war against anybody. But we will NEED help in the post. Cause even if Zoubs and LT are getting it done, they will be seniors in 09-10. We need to already have their heir apparants on campus for continuity going forward.

We all like Boynton, and he is no doubt good. But he isn't the must get from the 09 HS class. Guards we got, or can get. Posts are getting a bit thin on the ground in Durham. If we were to get only 2 players out of the 09 class, and they were Boynton and Macdonald, the class would be a dissappointment, regardless of its ranking. Conversely, a class consisting of Echenique and another quality forward would be a huge success, despite the certainty that such a class would be ranked far lower than the class with Boynton and Macdonald. The Echenique class would fill a need, whereas the guard heavy class would simply be stockpiling talent at positions where we are pretty set. I think we will get some combination, but the posts are the keystones of Duke's future success.

Patrick Yates

Classof06
01-22-2008, 02:16 PM
We need a post. Boynton may be the best player we bring in, should it happen. He might be the best by a very wide margin. But he is not the most important. We need a post from the 09 class. Period.

Yes, yes, yes. To be honest, I don't even really want to talk about Duke's recruiting efforts until we have a legit post prospect signed. I'm glad Boynton's really good but he's not the missing piece in this program. I don't get shudders from the thought of losing out on Boynton; I get the shudders everytime that #54 fella from Kentucky drops another double-double in another losing effort.

freedevil
01-22-2008, 02:17 PM
I didn't say he was a must get, I'm saying he sounds like THE man.

2001dukechamps
01-22-2008, 04:23 PM
.

But, again, different game than J-Will. Maybe better, maybe not. But different. Really, the two names shouldn't be mentioned together unless some member of the staff says otherwise.




Actually Coach K told him that he his game is similar to J-Will's and that he wanted to use him like he did J-Will. Based what I've seen his game is very smiliar in terms passing,scoring,quickness, crossover, and the ability to penetrate. But I do agree with you on that he is not the most important player, Echenique is but Boynton is IMO THE best and most talented player by a pretty good margin. That is one of the reasons why many of us want him just as bad as Echenique.

Patrick Yates
01-22-2008, 04:29 PM
Free, I am not taking shots or anything, this is merely an attempt at constructive criticism.

Boynton is not THE man. There are very few of those guys, and for Duke, Boynton is not THE man. He is a very good player, no doubt, but he plays a position where we are loaded. Indeed, he plays the position that is arguably the most loaded position in HS, and college, athletics. Shooting guards, good ones, are pretty thick on the ground.

Now, Boynton is very good, and may be one of the best SGs available. But, realistically, he is short, he needs the ball in his hands, and he takes a lot of shots. While reportedly very fast, he is also reportedly not a great leapers. I don't take this to mean that he is earthbound, merely not a GREAT leaper. Ty Lawson seems to be a somewhat comparable player, only whereas Lawson is a great PG with questionable shooting, Boynton is a great shooter with developing PG skills. Both are able to get to the lane at will, and finish, but not with a Dunk.

My point is that Boynton's size and game will probably prevent him from dominating from day one. At Duke he will face excellant defenders most nights. Those guys will be big, strong, and fast. As good as Boynton sounds, guys like Nelson or Hendo would eat his game for lunch. Not every team has defenders like those guys, but they are out there. Unlike a Gordon or Mayo, Boynton does not have the size/leaping ability to explode from day one. By the time he leaves, probably sooner rather than later, Boynton should be great. He has all the tools if he works hard. But, when he arrives, there will be at least, probably, a Jr PG in Smith, a Sr. SG in Scheyer, a soph SG in Elliot Williams, and a Sr. SG in Pocius. Smith, Scheyer, and Williams are all capable of handling either guard position.

Given all that, I doubt Boynton will be THE man at Duke. Given his size/game, I doubt he would be THE man at any high major team with serious national title asperations. He would be key role player, and eventual superstar, but he does not have instant stud written anywhere on him. Still, the thought of Boynton as a super sub comming in with King to launch daggers is tantalizing. Think Corey Maggette with more jumper and less dunker. It would set him up for a monster soph year.

We are pinning too may hopes on a kid who is a Jr, and not committed. I think he could be the next great Duke guard, but K has no problems getting good guards. Bigs we need. Boynton we would really, really like.

Patrick Yates

watzone
01-22-2008, 04:34 PM
Gee! I wonder why anybody else bothers to post at all:) KB knows his pro future is at the point. Duke will play him as a scoring point should they get him. And we are loaded with scoring PG's?

Carlos
01-22-2008, 04:52 PM
Flashback to a few years ago:

Jason Williams is not THE man. There are very few of those guys, and for Duke, JWill is not THE man. He is a very good player, no doubt, but he plays a position where we are loaded. Indeed, he plays the position that is arguably the most loaded position in HS, and college, athletics. Shooting guards, good ones, are pretty thick on the ground.

Now, JWill is very good, and may be one of the best SGs available. But, realistically, he is short, he needs the ball in his hands, and he takes a lot of shots. While reportedly very fast, he is also reportedly not a great leapers. I don't take this to mean that he is earthbound, merely not a GREAT leaper. Ty Lawson seems to be a somewhat comparable player, only whereas Lawson is a great PG with questionable shooting, JWill is a great shooter with developing PG skills. Both are able to get to the lane at will, and finish, but not with a Dunk.

My point is that JWill’s size and game will probably prevent him from dominating from day one. At Duke he will face excellant defenders most nights. Those guys will be big, strong, and fast. As good as JWill sounds, guys like Carrawell or Nate James would eat his game for lunch. Not every team has defenders like those guys, but they are out there. Unlike a Steve Francis or Gilbert Arenas, JWill does not have the size/leaping ability to explode from day one. By the time he leaves, probably sooner rather than later, JWill should be great. He has all the tools if he works hard. But, when he arrives, there will be at least, probably, a Jr PG in Avery, a Sr. SG in Carrawell, and a Sr. SG in Nate James.

Given all that, I doubt JWill will be THE man at Duke. Given his size/game, I doubt he would be THE man at any high major team with serious national title asperations. He would be key role player, and eventual superstar, but he does not have instant stud written anywhere on him.

2001dukechamps
01-22-2008, 05:02 PM
He looks like a good leaper to me... http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=1293598717

2001dukechamps
01-22-2008, 05:05 PM
Oh and did I mention his sparq testing has him with a 34 inch vertical so thats not bad. I'll get the link in a few.

kramerbr
01-22-2008, 05:08 PM
Is Echenique from the same high school as Lance Thomas? And if so, could this connection along with the Hurley connection benefit Duke in its pursuit?

johnb
01-22-2008, 05:17 PM
Flashback to a few years ago:

Jason Williams is not THE man. There are very few of those guys, and for Duke, JWill is not THE man. He is a very good player, no doubt, but he plays a position where we are loaded. Indeed, he plays the position that is arguably the most loaded position in HS, and college, athletics. Shooting guards, good ones, are pretty thick on the ground.

Now, JWill is very good, and may be one of the best SGs available. But, realistically, he is short, he needs the ball in his hands, and he takes a lot of shots. While reportedly very fast, he is also reportedly not a great leapers. I don't take this to mean that he is earthbound, merely not a GREAT leaper. Ty Lawson seems to be a somewhat comparable player, only whereas Lawson is a great PG with questionable shooting, JWill is a great shooter with developing PG skills. Both are able to get to the lane at will, and finish, but not with a Dunk.

My point is that JWill’s size and game will probably prevent him from dominating from day one. At Duke he will face excellant defenders most nights. Those guys will be big, strong, and fast. As good as JWill sounds, guys like Carrawell or Nate James would eat his game for lunch. Not every team has defenders like those guys, but they are out there. Unlike a Steve Francis or Gilbert Arenas, JWill does not have the size/leaping ability to explode from day one. By the time he leaves, probably sooner rather than later, JWill should be great. He has all the tools if he works hard. But, when he arrives, there will be at least, probably, a Jr PG in Avery, a Sr. SG in Carrawell, and a Sr. SG in Nate James.

Given all that, I doubt JWill will be THE man at Duke. Given his size/game, I doubt he would be THE man at any high major team with serious national title asperations. He would be key role player, and eventual superstar, but he does not have instant stud written anywhere on him.

touche

Turtleboy
01-22-2008, 05:38 PM
Oh and did I mention his sparq testing has him with a 34 inch vertical so thats not bad. I'll get the link in a few.Well, he's 6'2", and he got his head up to 9 feet or so, so that seems about right.

SilkyJ
01-22-2008, 05:46 PM
Cause even if Zoubs and LT are getting it done, they will be seniors in 09-10. We need to already have their heir apparants on campus for continuity going forward.

This is the most important point about the 09-10 class. People forget that they are TWO years from stepping on campus and so we are going to be real, real thin at the 4/5 spot by then as Zoubs and LT will be seniors, and I dont think we can bank on Kyle being around as a Junior although it possible. Even then, he's much better suited at the 4 or 3 if we go big (ha).

Missing on Brandan Wright, PP, and Monroe has left our front line looking thiiiiiiiiiiiin for the near to mid future.

I hope Olek can be productive down low, but even he is 6'7"/6'8" 220/230 so we really need a big body down there.


Ty Lawson seems to be a somewhat comparable player, only whereas Lawson is a great PG with questionable shooting, JWill is a great shooter with developing PG skills. Both are able to get to the lane at will, and finish, but not with a Dunk.


in fairness to patrick, Jwill could throw down while driving to the hoop and he did say several times that he doesn't think KB's leaping ability compares to JWill's...so he might have a point there.

Nonetheless, very well played with the comparison. The circumstances surrounding the team when Jwill arrived and when KB would arrive are almost uncanny.

Patrick Yates
01-22-2008, 06:19 PM
When, I mean if, Kenny Boynton arrives for the 09-10 season, Nolan Smith, Jon Scheyer, and Elliot Williams will almost certainly still be on campus. Hendo will probably be gonzo.

So, who would you sit for the incoming frosh? Smith? Scheyer? Williams? Elliot is the only unknown, but he is a 6-4 combo who will have whole year under K, and a summer spent working on whatever flaws show up during his frosh year. Really, who would you sit of those three? Certainly Scheyer and Smith play, as a Sr and Jr respectively. Unless we go 4 guard. Which, unless we get Echenique or Riley or Painter, could be a real, ie the only, possibility.

When J-Will arrived we had Avery, and Maggette, and...Oh yeah. Nobody. J-Will got to start at the pg by dint of nobody else who could do it. I mean nobody. We had no quality guards when he arrived. Nate Dog and C-Well were forward/guards, but neither was a primary ball handler.

So that is a little different from Boynton's stituation. I asked earlier, and I await replies. Who will sit to make way for Boynton? With those three guys, where is the desparate need for perimeter scoring, ball handling, or Defense?

Conversely, I think Echenique, or any other post, finds it pretty smooth sailing to the starting lineup simply by showing up at CIS. I think we can all project a need in the post more than yet another combo guard.

And I stand behind my comment about SG's being thick on the ground. Maybe not as good as Boynton, but pretty darned close. Look at VCU and Marquette. They each have undersized SGs, who were not highly rated, that ate us up. UMD has some guards not nearly as highly rated as UNC's. That worked out pretty well for them last weekend. Pitt had some guards nobody here even considered recruiting, and they held up OK against us.

The separation between shooting, or combo (really shooting, you can either play the pg or you cannot) guards is much narrower than at the forward or post position. What separates SG's is size and athleticism. KB is undersized for the SG. I don't know about his jumping, but that is not listed as one of his strengths in any of his evaluations. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, post it.

Patrick Yates

Indoor66
01-22-2008, 06:20 PM
Missing on Brandan Wright, PP, and Monroe has left our front line looking thiiiiiiiiiiiin for the near to mid future.

How long do you think they would be around?

SilkyJ
01-22-2008, 06:58 PM
How long do you think they would be around?

we'll never know, but I'll take the bait. Presumably, you are suggesting they wouldn't have stayed very long had they come.

So let's say they all stayed one year (one extreme), well last year we would have had someone to help out mcbob in wright, but not that big of a deal cause we werent winning anything (in terms of a national or ACC title) last year, but at least we win a couple more games and hopefully get out of the 1st round of the NCAAs.

This year we'd have PP at the 5, probably starting, and moving singler to the 4 where he is PERFECT FOR OUR SYSTEM (i mean can't u see him inbounding the ball and then following the play for the trailing 3 from the top of the key like battier...if only). The way we are playing, if we had PP in post defending and rebounding, GOOD-NIGHT. We'd have final four written all over us.

So let's say he goes, but we got Monroe for next year. I think we'd have final four written all over us again...

So even if they didnt stay more than a year, at least we have two very, very legit shots at the FF and NC.

also, the point of my post was simply to point out that we have no one in the pipeline other than The Czyz to fill the void we are going to have in a couple years down low...if we landed those guys at least we have a chance ("so you're saying theres a chance") of having someone in there

Madrasdukie
01-22-2008, 08:15 PM
I found an old (06/07) Olek Czyz article while surfing the web. It has a very positive spin and is also probably the longest and most descriptive article I have read on Czyz.
So in line with posters like Bob who recently said what a good free throw shooter Olek is, here are some Olek intangibles as seen by a Kentucky sports radio writer:

http://blog.kentuckysportsradio.com/?p=2684

watzone
01-22-2008, 08:47 PM
For the life of me Patrick I cannot figure out where you think KB will play. Should he come, who is our point in that mind of yours?

Let's not act as if others can't play the SF in the same three guard lineup we use now. And Scheyer doesn't start this year, so is it uncommon to sit a good player or have a "sixth starter" as his team refers to him?

KB is the 09 class version of Eric Gordon or is comparable that feller Los wuz talkin about. It really isn't an argument at all. It's a wall.

I haven't the energy for the rest .... it's so bizzaro.

I owe Los a beer tho.

_Gary
01-22-2008, 08:50 PM
we'll never know, but I'll take the bait. Presumably, you are suggesting they wouldn't have stayed very long had they come.

So let's say they all stayed one year (one extreme), well last year we would have had someone to help out mcbob in wright, but not that big of a deal cause we werent winning anything (in terms of a national or ACC title) last year, but at least we win a couple more games and hopefully get out of the 1st round of the NCAAs.

This year we'd have PP at the 5, probably starting, and moving singler to the 4 where he is PERFECT FOR OUR SYSTEM (i mean can't u see him inbounding the ball and then following the play for the trailing 3 from the top of the key like battier...if only). The way we are playing, if we had PP in post defending and rebounding, GOOD-NIGHT. We'd have final four written all over us.

So let's say he goes, but we got Monroe for next year. I think we'd have final four written all over us again...

So even if they didnt stay more than a year, at least we have two very, very legit shots at the FF and NC.

For whatever it's worth, I agree completely. The loss of those three front court players has left us, and will continue to leave us, very thin down low. And I too think we'd have been out and out locks for a Final Four this year if we had Patterson, and the next couple of years with a combo of him and/or Monroe. It can not be overstated just how costly those misses were.

Look, we are very solid team that can beat anyone on any given night (if our shots are falling). But we are also very weak in the low block offensively and defensively, even though Lance performed phenomenally this past weekend in that position - a position he really shouldn't be playing in a perfect world. We need help down low, and we had darn well better secure an interior stud this time around or we will simply be a mirror image of what we are this season for years to come. That might be ok on many, even most, nights, but I'd rather have some inside help so that on nights when the outside shot isn't going, we still have a shot with great interior play.

I was watching the UNC/Duke game from '98 the other day and I just marveled at how incredible it was to see us have a post presence that could take over a game like Elton did in the 2nd half. It was a thing of beauty, and I'd really like to see us have something similar in the near future.


Gary

Jumbo
01-22-2008, 09:14 PM
When, I mean if, Kenny Boynton arrives for the 09-10 season, Nolan Smith, Jon Scheyer, and Elliot Williams will almost certainly still be on campus. Hendo will probably be gonzo.

So, who would you sit for the incoming frosh? Smith? Scheyer? Williams?
Not ever recruit expects to play 30 minutes as a freshman. This has been a common theme in your posts, and it is flawed. Duke has brought in plenty of top recruits who have learned the system as freshmen and moved on to bigger roles the following year.

Troublemaker
01-22-2008, 09:35 PM
Boynton is as important a recruit as Echenique if you actually project out the '09-'10 roster, which I'd do again here if I hadn't already done so several times over the past few months in these recruiting threads. There'd be a dearth of guards on the roster if Duke doesn't sign one from the '09 class. Pocius' medical redshirt helps a bit with that but he'd be the only projected guard coming off the bench, and he might never be ready for consistent rotation minutes due to either a propensity for injury or skill.

Duke needs guards from the '09 class. Duke needs big men as well but they're equally important. '09 needs to be a big class because '08 was a two-man class (EWill/Czyz) and you can't have two small classes in a row this day and age.

freedevil
01-22-2008, 09:41 PM
Watzone and Troublemaker, I'm with ya.

Kenny Boynton would be a fantastic get for Duke University. I would love to see him playing in Cameron Indoor, for one year or four. I'd hope for 4, but I'm not getting greedy. I will hope that if KB reads internet message boards, that he doesn't read PY's posts.

yancem
01-22-2008, 10:55 PM
Free, I am not taking shots or anything, this is merely an attempt at constructive criticism.

Boynton is not THE man. There are very few of those guys, and for Duke, Boynton is not THE man. He is a very good player, no doubt, but he plays a position where we are loaded. Indeed, he plays the position that is arguably the most loaded position in HS, and college, athletics. Shooting guards, good ones, are pretty thick on the ground.

Now, Boynton is very good, and may be one of the best SGs available. But, realistically, he is short, he needs the ball in his hands, and he takes a lot of shots. While reportedly very fast, he is also reportedly not a great leapers. I don't take this to mean that he is earthbound, merely not a GREAT leaper. Ty Lawson seems to be a somewhat comparable player, only whereas Lawson is a great PG with questionable shooting, Boynton is a great shooter with developing PG skills. Both are able to get to the lane at will, and finish, but not with a Dunk.

My point is that Boynton's size and game will probably prevent him from dominating from day one. At Duke he will face excellant defenders most nights. Those guys will be big, strong, and fast. As good as Boynton sounds, guys like Nelson or Hendo would eat his game for lunch. Not every team has defenders like those guys, but they are out there. Unlike a Gordon or Mayo, Boynton does not have the size/leaping ability to explode from day one. By the time he leaves, probably sooner rather than later, Boynton should be great. He has all the tools if he works hard. But, when he arrives, there will be at least, probably, a Jr PG in Smith, a Sr. SG in Scheyer, a soph SG in Elliot Williams, and a Sr. SG in Pocius. Smith, Scheyer, and Williams are all capable of handling either guard position.

Given all that, I doubt Boynton will be THE man at Duke. Given his size/game, I doubt he would be THE man at any high major team with serious national title asperations. He would be key role player, and eventual superstar, but he does not have instant stud written anywhere on him. Still, the thought of Boynton as a super sub comming in with King to launch daggers is tantalizing. Think Corey Maggette with more jumper and less dunker. It would set him up for a monster soph year.

We are pinning too may hopes on a kid who is a Jr, and not committed. I think he could be the next great Duke guard, but K has no problems getting good guards. Bigs we need. Boynton we would really, really like.

Patrick Yates

I'm sorry but have you seen this kid play? I totally agree that Duke needs a big post player more than and athletic pg/sg, even if he were to be less talented. But to say that Boyton is not THE man seems rather incorrect. I realize that you can never truly tell how a kid's (especially a junior) game is going to translate at the college or pro level but again have you seen him play? I've seen two games (granted not a huge sampling) on ESPN U and have been extremely impressed. He can score from anywhere on the court and while his outside jumper isn't picture perfect, it goes in. I also think that you are underestimating his jumping and point guard abilities. In both games a watched he showed very solid ups and passed the ball pretty effectively. I honestly think that comparing Boyton to JWill is on target. I hate to but unrealistic expectations on a kid but the sky is the limit for this one. I don't think its even really about reaching potential as much as simple growing and learning the game. He already has sick skills. My only concern is can he play nice with the rest of the team. In other words is he going to be happy if he doesn't get 20 shots a night? I think that he'll be an big time impact freshman pretty much anywhere he goes.

cameroncrazed23
01-23-2008, 01:32 PM
Let's look a little down the road here. If all of our recruiting wishes come true and we land Brandon Knight, Kenny Boynton, and Greg Echenique all come to Duke in the next 3 years look at this starting 5.


Brandon Knight-PG FR
Kenny Boynton-SG SO
Elliot Williams-SF JR
Kyle Singler-PF SR
Greg Echenique-C SO

I mean i know probably Nolan Smith will be starting but it's always fun to imagine.

wilson
01-23-2008, 01:46 PM
Let's look a little down the road here. If all of our recruiting wishes come true and we land Brandon Knight, Kenny Boynton, and Greg Echenique all come to Duke in the next 3 years look at this starting 5.


Brandon Knight-PG FR
Kenny Boynton-SG SO
Elliot Williams-SF JR
Kyle Singler-PF SR
Greg Echenique-C SO

I mean i know probably Nolan Smith will be starting but it's always fun to imagine.

Keeping Singler around for four years may be a bit of a challenge too.

cameroncrazed23
01-23-2008, 01:52 PM
Yeah i thought about that but hey you never know what can happen.

shadowfax336
01-23-2008, 01:54 PM
this is productive/constructive how?
C'mon we don't have any idea what that will be like, or even if those are the best players for us at this point.
Lets focus on this year, or if we absolutely have to look ahead, next year when we at least have an idea about what some of our players will look like and what the general state of the ACC will be...

cameroncrazed23
01-23-2008, 02:04 PM
alright relax it may not be constructive but that's exactly why i said it's fun to imagine.

Indoor66
01-23-2008, 02:06 PM
alright relax it may not be constructive but that's exactly why i said it's fun to imagine.

Why not "visualize" reality and enjoy today and the quality team we have playing at the moment.

Singlernation019
01-23-2008, 02:12 PM
Yeah let's come it down with the future yes it is always nice to get recruits but we are #3 in the nation and first in the ACC let's take it one step at a time.

yancem
01-23-2008, 10:28 PM
Some 2009 rankings according to Scouts.com:

Jamil Wilson - 6
DeShawn Painter - 8
Kenny Boynton - 9
DaShonte Riley - 16
Leslie McDonald - 18
Reeves Nelson - 30
Greg Echenique - 37
Erik Murphy - 41

So Nelson and Murphy are now of the market. I know that Duke is strongly recruiting Boyton, McDonald and Echenique. I've heard that we have interest in Painter but haven't offfered. This is the first I've read about interest in Wilson and Riley. Does anyone know how interested we are in them or them in us?

Bob Green
01-24-2008, 12:45 AM
So Nelson and Murphy are now of the market. I know that Duke is strongly recruiting Boyton, McDonald and Echenique. I've heard that we have interest in Painter but haven't offfered. This is the first I've read about interest in Wilson and Riley. Does anyone know how interested we are in them or them in us?

I've read that it will be next to impossible to get Wilson out of the state of Wisconsin.

vango
01-24-2008, 08:00 AM
....according to this (grain of salt) Plumlee is on our radar now too....

http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=8&c=1&nid=2856191

novablue4
01-24-2008, 10:56 AM
When, I mean if, Kenny Boynton arrives for the 09-10 season, Nolan Smith, Jon Scheyer, and Elliot Williams will almost certainly still be on campus. Hendo will probably be gonzo.

So, who would you sit for the incoming frosh? Smith? Scheyer? Williams? Elliot is the only unknown, but he is a 6-4 combo who will have whole year under K, and a summer spent working on whatever flaws show up during his frosh year. Really, who would you sit of those three? Certainly Scheyer and Smith play, as a Sr and Jr respectively. Unless we go 4 guard. Which, unless we get Echenique or Riley or Painter, could be a real, ie the only, possibility.

When J-Will arrived we had Avery, and Maggette, and...Oh yeah. Nobody. J-Will got to start at the pg by dint of nobody else who could do it. I mean nobody. We had no quality guards when he arrived. Nate Dog and C-Well were forward/guards, but neither was a primary ball handler.

So that is a little different from Boynton's stituation. I asked earlier, and I await replies. Who will sit to make way for Boynton? With those three guys, where is the desparate need for perimeter scoring, ball handling, or Defense?

Conversely, I think Echenique, or any other post, finds it pretty smooth sailing to the starting lineup simply by showing up at CIS. I think we can all project a need in the post more than yet another combo guard.

And I stand behind my comment about SG's being thick on the ground. Maybe not as good as Boynton, but pretty darned close. Look at VCU and Marquette. They each have undersized SGs, who were not highly rated, that ate us up. UMD has some guards not nearly as highly rated as UNC's. That worked out pretty well for them last weekend. Pitt had some guards nobody here even considered recruiting, and they held up OK against us.

The separation between shooting, or combo (really shooting, you can either play the pg or you cannot) guards is much narrower than at the forward or post position. What separates SG's is size and athleticism. KB is undersized for the SG. I don't know about his jumping, but that is not listed as one of his strengths in any of his evaluations. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, post it.

Patrick Yates

I agree with your post and watzone is usually a very good poster on this board. We would love to get Boyton, I think he is an absolute definite top 5 player in his class, but Greg E. or if we actually pukll out all the stuff we have and make a successful run at Riley, that is what we need the most.

There is a kid at Raleigh Ravenscroft named Ryan Kelly that is really rising up the rankings, I wish we'd really give that young man a shot as well. He is 6'10" but I don't think he is a "Banger" on the boards. We need that.

Was it JWill's class that we signed Andre Buckner away from Eastern Kentucky and Murray State, I think the only two schools really looking at him, because we wwere so thin at the point?

novablue4
01-24-2008, 11:04 AM
I've read that it will be next to impossible to get Wilson out of the state of Wisconsin.

I have seen on other sites where Jamil Wilson no longer even lists us as a school of interest.

SilkyJ
01-24-2008, 02:19 PM
Look, we are very solid team that can beat anyone on any given night (if our shots are falling). But we are also very weak in the low block offensively and defensively, even though Lance performed phenomenally this past weekend in that position - a position he really shouldn't be playing in a perfect world.

You know what else I noticed and have been wanting to post: Kyle Singler is a really good defender. You are absolutely right about Lance's performance this past week, but Kyle is way underrated as a defender. He's doing a solid job defending these guys that are way bigger and more athletic than him AND he's doing it without getting into foul trouble, which is HUGE. No, he's not out blocking a ton of shots or altering shots, but he has good fundamentals, holds his ground, and I think that given our situation in the post and the fact that Kyle is essential to this team's success, his ability to stay out of foul trouble should be heavily weighted into any evaluation of him as a defender.


Boynton is as important a recruit as Echenique if you actually project out the '09-'10 roster, which I'd do again here if I hadn't already done so several times over the past few months in these recruiting threads. There'd be a dearth of guards on the roster if Duke doesn't sign one from the '09 class. Pocius' medical redshirt helps a bit with that but he'd be the only projected guard coming off the bench,

I disagree that there would be a "dearth" if we project. If we assume hendo is gone,

we still have

Guards: Nolan, Elliot, Marty, Scheyer
Forwards: King, Lance, Singler, Olek,
Center: Zoubek

Thats a 9 deep rotation with four guards, without including any incoming freshman. And just as Scheyer and Marty can play the 2/3, so can King play the 3/4 (and he trims down a bit and gets a bit quicker, he could even play the 2...and he projects as a 2 on the pro level) So that gives us 1 pure PG, and two people that can sub for him in Elliot or Schyer and 4 wing guards in Elliott, Scheyer, and King. (also, if you want you can say singler will be gone by then, but its completely irrelevant cause we are talking about guards)

Now if you want to say that we need another PG in there, and KB would certainly develop into one just like nolan is, then thats fine. But to say we have a "dearth" of "guards" (you didn't specify PGs) is WAY over the top.

Troublemaker
01-24-2008, 02:45 PM
I disagree that there would be a "dearth" if we project. If we assume hendo is gone,

we still have

Guards: Nolan, Elliot, Marty, Scheyer
Forwards: King, Lance, Singler, Olek,
Center: Zoubek

Thats a 9 deep rotation with four guards, without including any incoming freshman. And just as Scheyer and Marty can play the 2/3, so can King play the 3/4 (and he trims down a bit and gets a bit quicker, he could even play the 2...and he projects as a 2 on the pro level) So that gives us 1 pure PG, and two people that can sub for him in Elliot or Schyer and 4 wing guards in Elliott, Scheyer, and King. (also, if you want you can say singler will be gone by then, but its completely irrelevant cause we are talking about guards)

Now if you want to say that we need another PG in there, and KB would certainly develop into one just like nolan is, then thats fine. But to say we have a "dearth" of "guards" (you didn't specify PGs) is WAY over the top.

Dearth, dearth, dearth. As I said previously, Pocius is the only guard off the bench when you project the roster. Smith, Scheyer, and EWill would all start. Pocius has never been a regular part of the rotation and it's at least questionable that he ever will be. Factor in that both Scheyer and Pocius would be seniors and, well, dearth, dearth, dearth ;-). Duke absolutely needs to get a guard or two from the class of 2009. Duke needs to get a big man in there as well but the guard need is no less of a need.

_Gary
01-24-2008, 03:02 PM
Duke needs to get a big man in there as well but the guard need is no less of a need.

Ohhh. I wouldn't go that far. Yes, we can definitely use a guard in that class, but if we are comparing positions I'd still say we are more in need of a big. Maybe by only a little, or maybe by a lot. But the need is greater down low for sure.

Gary

Troublemaker
01-24-2008, 03:30 PM
Ohhh. I wouldn't go that far. Yes, we can definitely use a guard in that class, but if we are comparing positions I'd still say we are more in need of a big. Maybe by only a little, or maybe by a lot. But the need is greater down low for sure.

I think that'd be true if we were talking about the class of 2008. But with the class of 2009, you have to start thinking about how Scheyer and Pocius will be seniors in '09-'10 and how it's certainly not outside the realm of possibility that Smith is 3-and-done. That's why Duke hasn't emphasized big man over guard in scholarship offers. Duke has 2 offers out to guards and 2 offers out to bigs (or will once again when the staff finds a replacement for Murphy's offer).

The way Silky broke down the roster is fine but isn't relevant to the lineup Duke has put on the court for a few years now, which includes 3 guards, 1 combo-forward, and 1 center. I find the possibility of Thomas, King, or Singler (if he's still around) ever seeing minutes at the 3 to be remote, so what we're basically talking about is four players (the four guards) for three positions, one of whom (Pocius) is questionable to ever be part of the rotation, two of whom are seniors, and one of whom (Smith) could be gone as well. That's why Duke has offered as many guards as big men in the class of 2009.

SilkyJ
01-24-2008, 03:33 PM
Dearth, dearth, dearth. As I said previously, Pocius is the only guard off the bench when you project the roster. Smith, Scheyer, and EWill would all start. Pocius has never been a regular part of the rotation and it's at least questionable that he ever will be. Factor in that both Scheyer and Pocius would be seniors and, well, dearth, dearth, dearth ;-). Duke absolutely needs to get a guard or two from the class of 2009. Duke needs to get a big man in there as well but the guard need is no less of a need.

where to begin....How many guards do we have right now: Paulus, Smith, Scheyer, Henderson, Nelson. Thats 5.

So let me get this straight. You think that b/c we'll have one less guard than a team that is currently billed as "guard-heavy" we'll have a Dearth of guards? No. Course not.

what you must be trying to say is this: that we WILL have a dearth of guards AFTER that year cause Scheyer & Marty will be gone so we'd only be left with 2 guards IF we didn't land anyone from the HS class of '09. (I am arriving at this conclusion based on your statement that " Factor in that both Scheyer and Pocius would be seniors and, well, dearth, dearth, dearth." You must be talking about the fact that they will graduate after the 09-10 season so the NEXT season we will have a dearth. If thats not what u were trying to say, then I must ask whats your point about them being seniors? Whether they are seniors or freshman is irrelevant to the argument of the # of guards we have. If they are on that roster that year than they count.)

(sidenote: I apologize if I lack your clairvoyance, but I dont see how you can definitively state that Ewill would start. To project that is crazy at this point. If singler is still around, our starting lineup could just as easily be Smith, Scheyer, King, Singler, Zoubek....or Smith, Scheyer,Singler, Lance, Zoubek) Moreover, its really irrelevant because the # of guards coming off the bench obviously is related to whether you play a 2 or 3 or 4 guard lineup, so thats not really as important as how many guards you have total. So we'd have 4 guards TOTAL (NOT counting King as a G/F combo, which is completely legit, imho, but just in case you don't agree, I won't even go there).)

SilkyJ
01-24-2008, 03:37 PM
The way Silky broke down the roster is fine but isn't relevant to the lineup Duke has put on the court for a few years now, which includes 3 guards, 1 combo-forward, and 1 center. I find the possibility of Thomas, King, or Singler (if he's still around) ever seeing minutes at the 3 to be remote, so what we're basically talking about is four players (the four guards) for three positions

Coach K has always stated that he caters his system and lineup to the players he has. We have had guard heavy teams recently so he has played guard heavy lineups.

After reading this post I think I see what the problem is. You seem to think that having 4 guards instead of 5 constitutes a dearth. So then what does having 5 guards mean?

MChambers
01-24-2008, 03:46 PM
plethora

Troublemaker
01-24-2008, 04:00 PM
where to begin....How many guards do we have right now: Paulus, Smith, Scheyer, Henderson, Nelson. Thats 5.

So let me get this straight. You think that b/c we'll have one less guard than a team that is currently billed as "guard-heavy" we'll have a Dearth of guards? No. Course not.
what you are clearly trying to say is this: that we WILL have a dearth of guards AFTER that year cause Scheyer & Marty will be gone so we'd only be left with 2 guards IF we didn't land anyone from the HS class of '09. (I am arriving at this conclusion based on your statement that " Factor in that both Scheyer and Pocius would be seniors and, well, dearth, dearth, dearth." You must be talking about the fact that they will graduate after the 09-10 season so the NEXT season we will have a dearth. Either that or you threw that in there for no reason)

(sidenote: I apologize if I lack your clairvoyance, but I dont see how you can definitively state that Ewill would start. To project that is crazy at this point. If singler is still around, our starting lineup could just as easily be Smith, Scheyer, King, Singler, Zoubek....or Smith, Scheyer,Singler, Lance, Zoubek) Moreover, its really irrelevant because the # of guards coming off the bench obviously is related to whether you play a 2 or 3 or 4 guard lineup, so thats not really as important as how many guards you have total. So we'd have 4 guards TOTAL (NOT counting King as a G/F combo, which is completely legit, imho, but just in case your twisted logic doesn't agree, I won't even go there).)

My "twisted logic" seems to be heavy-handed language for what I thought was a friendly discussion. But yes, I think that if Duke failed to sign a guard from the class of 2009, we would be dearly in need of one, enough for me to call it a dearth. While it's true that part of my reasoning is the effect on seasons following '09-'10 because I value class balance, I ALSO think the '09-'10 roster would require another guard at least. Answer this: why do you think Duke has as many offers out to guards as big men (actually, currently more, but we'll assume that the Murphy offer will be given to another big)?

It's not as simple as 5 vs 4. 5 good guards that can all play is good depth at guard, but let's say you take the 5 guards from this year's team, subtract Nelson and Henderson, and add Pocius. I would say that team needs another guard, and that situation is similar to what we're talking about in '09-'10. If the '09-'10 roster had a true college small forward and the four guards could split time at two positions instead of three, then there'd be less of a problem. But given K's preference for quickness, there is almost zero chance that given the projected '09-'10 roster we're discussing, anyone but Smith, Scheyer, and Ewill would start at the 1, 2, and 3. That's where we'll have to agree to disagree. I give it a snowball's chance in hell that King will ever play the 3 for Duke. You disagree. I also think your suggested Singler/Thomas/Zoubek lineup is extremely unlikely to ever occur.

watzone
01-24-2008, 05:37 PM
Well, Duke is recruiting two guards in 2009, like it or not. And they want to sign both of them.

SilkyJ
01-24-2008, 06:02 PM
My "twisted logic" seems to be heavy-handed language for what I thought was a friendly discussion. But yes, I think that if Duke failed to sign a guard from the class of 2009, we would be dearly in need of one, enough for me to call it a dearth. While it's true that part of my reasoning is the effect on seasons following '09-'10 because I value class balance, I ALSO think the '09-'10 roster would require another guard at least. Answer this: why do you think Duke has as many offers out to guards as big men (actually, currently more, but we'll assume that the Murphy offer will be given to another big)?

It's not as simple as 5 vs 4. 5 good guards that can all play is good depth at guard, but let's say you take the 5 guards from this year's team, subtract Nelson and Henderson, and add Pocius. I would say that team needs another guard, and that situation is similar to what we're talking about in '09-'10. If the '09-'10 roster had a true college small forward and the four guards could split time at two positions instead of three, then there'd be less of a problem. But given K's preference for quickness, there is almost zero chance that given the projected '09-'10 roster we're discussing, anyone but Smith, Scheyer, and Ewill would start at the 1, 2, and 3. That's where we'll have to agree to disagree. I give it a snowball's chance in hell that King will ever play the 3 for Duke. You disagree. I also think your suggested Singler/Thomas/Zoubek lineup is extremely unlikely to ever occur.

My apologies on the twisted logic comment, as you can see I edited it out promptly after posting. It was probably as you were typing your repsonse...

Don't get me wrong, I agree that if we don't sign at least one or two guards from the HS class of '09, then the following year (after scheyer and marty are gone) we will have a dearth. So to answer your question about "why do we have as many offers out to guards as we do bigs" I think its because we do need to sign guards that year cause if we don't we will be screwed in the following season(s).

That said, your next point is very good, about the "quality" of the depth. You are obviously right that taking out Hendo and demarc, and adding pocious isn't exactly a fair trade. But if we're comparing today's 5 guards against 4 guards 1.5 years from now, and we're factoring in quality, then we have to factor in that John and Nolan should be significantly better than they are now (obviously we don't know, but if we're gonna "project" then its definitely fair to project that they will be better, and should be one of the best backcourts in the country by that time). In fact, I would expect by that time for the Nolan/John combo to be better than any other current PG/SG combo we currently have.

WRT projecting the starting lineup, I still maintain that its irrelevant, but I'll discuss anyways since we're having so much fun ;) I also maintain that its too tough to predict entirely (Nolan at PG is obvious, as is Scheyer at SG but they will be upperclassmen without much competition for their spots), and while I would tend to lean towards your viewpoint that ewill will be the 3rd starter, there are multiple things that give me doubt. Before I even get to that, I am surprised you don't think King would ever play the 3 for us. He's undersized to play the 4, and you can usually only get away with that if you have good athleticism or just being heady like McClure. He projects as a 2/3 in the pros, so I dont see why he couldn't play the wing for us. Not to mention that this is 1.5 years down the road, and I expect him to lose weight and gain quickness over the next 2 off seasons.

As for the doubts I have about ewill starting, especially at the 3, as you project:

1) he's as skinny as scheyer. yea, he can jump higher, but the guy is 6'4" 185 or something. He's skinny for a SG, so for a SF...I'm not saying he can't, I'm just saying thats one factor.

2) The development of King. I touched on it above. I think king will improve markedly this year and next year and will have a real shot at starting at the 3. If he loses 10 lbs and gains some quickness he should be quick enough to guard a 3 on the perimeter and we already know he can down low.

3) how good is Ewill. He's definitely good, but coming from such a weak class I think its tough to project. Taylor came from a strong class and was an all-american so I hope you can see why I at least have my doubts about penciling Ewill into the starting lineup 1.5 years from now.

Not to mention its just so tough to project what a kid will do in his soph year before he's even finished with his senior year of HS!!

SilkyJ
01-24-2008, 06:07 PM
Well, Duke is recruiting two guards in 2009, like it or not. And they want to sign both of them.

I do like it!!

yancem
01-24-2008, 08:44 PM
WRT projecting the starting lineup, I still maintain that its irrelevant, but I'll discuss anyways since we're having so much fun ;) I also maintain that its too tough to predict entirely (Nolan at PG is obvious, as is Scheyer at SG but they will be upperclassmen without much competition for their spots), and while I would tend to lean towards your viewpoint that ewill will be the 3rd starter, there are multiple things that give me doubt. Before I even get to that, I am surprised you don't think King would ever play the 3 for us. He's undersized to play the 4, and you can usually only get away with that if you have good athleticism or just being heady like McClure. He projects as a 2/3 in the pros, so I dont see why he couldn't play the wing for us. Not to mention that this is 1.5 years down the road, and I expect him to lose weight and gain quickness over the next 2 off seasons.

As for the doubts I have about ewill starting, especially at the 3, as you project:

2) The development of King. I touched on it above. I think king will improve markedly this year and next year and will have a real shot at starting at the 3. If he loses 10 lbs and gains some quickness he should be quick enough to guard a 3 on the perimeter and we already know he can down low.

Not to mention its just so tough to project what a kid will do in his soph year before he's even finished with his senior year of HS!!

The problem with King at the 3 is that it negates his advantage at the four offensively. Opposing team's 4 will have trouble guarding him on the perimeter while their 3's will be able to blanket him. Conversely on the defensive end, he is a solid rebounder and can hold his own in the post better than he can on the perimeter against quick athletic 3's. He will probably play some 3 if we are successful at recruiting some really athletic mobile bigs but maybe be more effective at the 4.

NYC Duke Fan
01-25-2008, 02:21 AM
In 2 years Duke will lose the following 6 players to graduation: Henderson, Scheyer, Zoubek, Thomas, Pocius, McClure. If Singler decides to leave for the NBA that would make 7. How do you replace 7 scholorship players in one year, and if it is possible to do so, how do you contend the following year with 7 freshmen ?

crote
01-25-2008, 02:42 AM
In 2 years Duke will lose the following 6 players to graduation: Henderson, Scheyer, Zoubek, Thomas, Pocius, McClure. If Singler decides to leave for the NBA that would make 7. How do you replace 7 scholorship players in one year, and if it is possible to do so, how do you contend the following year with 7 freshmen ?

Dave will be a red shirt senior next year and will likely graduate alongside Paulus next year. So that's six leaving in 2010, tops.

And to answer your question, you sign a big recruiting class. Duke did that in 2002 (JJ, Shelden, Shav, Dock, Lee, Mike Thompson) and again in 2005 (Greg, McBob, Boykin, Boateng, Marty). Arkansas is in a similar situation next season, graduating six seniors. They're also bringing in a six man class.

Even in your scenario, though, Duke would have two seniors (Nolan and Taylor), at least two juniors (Czyz and Williams), and around three or four sophs. That gives the team seven or eight experienced players, about what this year's team has. And I wouldn't say we're having any problems competing this season. Add in two or three or four talented Frosh, and you're looking at a really good team.

2001dukechamps
01-25-2008, 03:55 AM
Reload. And start it with locking up Brandon Knight...

Bob Green
01-25-2008, 05:01 AM
In 2 years Duke will lose the following 6 players to graduation: Henderson, Scheyer, Zoubek, Thomas, Pocius, McClure. If Singler decides to leave for the NBA that would make 7. How do you replace 7 scholorship players in one year, and if it is possible to do so, how do you contend the following year with 7 freshmen ?

Elliot Williams
Olek Czyz
Kenny Boynton, Jr.
Greg Echenique
Leslie McDonald
Jon Hood
DeShawn Painter
Mason Plumlee
DaShonte Riley
Brandon Knight

The answer to your question is that we recruit, recruit, recruit!!!

ivduke
01-25-2008, 06:40 AM
Please for the love of all things the right color of blue:

Enjoy THIS season would ya?

Bob Green
01-25-2008, 06:49 AM
Please for the love of all things the right color of blue:

Enjoy THIS season would ya?

Your post is spot on and I'm definitely enjoing this year! I was just responding to the questions raised by NYC Duke Fan.

ivduke
01-25-2008, 07:15 AM
My post was 100% directed at NYC.....

From reading you other posts I know that you are enjoying this season.... I may well have stolen the line from you :)

EarlJam
01-25-2008, 08:34 AM
In 2 years Duke will lose the following 6 players to graduation: Henderson, Scheyer, Zoubek, Thomas, Pocius, McClure. If Singler decides to leave for the NBA that would make 7. How do you replace 7 scholorship players in one year, and if it is possible to do so, how do you contend the following year with 7 freshmen ?

After reading the subject line, I thought this was going to be a thread about the unbelievable potential of this team to be astronomically great. The potential is there.

-EarlJam

revmel53
01-25-2008, 09:05 AM
I see this as not a time of worry, but opportunity. BTW, does anyone know about the injury reported several weeks ago to Elliott Willians? Is he all right?

Jumbo
01-25-2008, 10:31 AM
[King] projects as a 2/3 in the pros, so I dont see why he couldn't play the wing for us.

This is the second time you've mentioned that, so I felt I needed to respond. Taylor King doesn't project as a 2 at any level. He simply doesn't have the ball-handling skills or remotely enough quickness to play that spot. If he ever makes it to the NBA, you're right in asserting that he'll have to play the 3. That's why it's so dicey -- even if he loses a little weight, players just don't get that much quicker over the course of their career. It's hard to imagine him ever guarding NBA players on the perimeter.

And in college, where teams are smaller and the game is even more perimeter-oriented, King could not play anything other than the 4/5 at Duke. And, quite frankly, it doesn't make sense to play him anywhere else. The advantage gained by pulling a bigger guy away from the basket is far greater than his going against a smaller guy.

SilkyJ
01-25-2008, 02:53 PM
The problem with King at the 3 is that it negates his advantage at the four offensively. Opposing team's 4 will have trouble guarding him on the perimeter while their 3's will be able to blanket him. Conversely on the defensive end, he is a solid rebounder and can hold his own in the post better than he can on the perimeter against quick athletic 3's. He will probably play some 3 if we are successful at recruiting some really athletic mobile bigs but maybe be more effective at the 4.

Yea but wait til we have to play a team like UNC were he has to guard either thompson or hansblah if he plays the 4. He'll get eaten alive.


This is the second time you've mentioned that, so I felt I needed to respond. Taylor King doesn't project as a 2 at any level. He simply doesn't have the ball-handling skills or remotely enough quickness to play that spot. If he ever makes it to the NBA, you're right in asserting that he'll have to play the 3. That's why it's so dicey -- even if he loses a little weight, players just don't get that much quicker over the course of their career. It's hard to imagine him ever guarding NBA players on the perimeter.

I don't think he'd play a lot at the 2, I definitely think he's more a 3, but against a bigger team or depending on personel, I could see him sliding and playing the 2. Luol played the 4 for us a lot if not most of the time and is a prototypical SF (in the pros), but even he slides and plays SG every so often (in the pros)

Also, let me say that playing "pro" does not equate to playing the NBA (in my mind, and for the purposes of this post. Definitely a fair assumption to think that is what I meant, though). I don't know that Taylor ever will play in the NBA, but I don't doubt his ability to play professional basketball overseas.

I agree that his skills at this moment in time are not where they need to be to play the 2 in the pros, but he has 3.5 years under coach K to develop, so I think ball-handling skills will improve. Think of JJ...his ball-handling skills were never great but were adequate by his senior year. I also think his weight will drop and he will get a bit quicker, but you are right, thats an area where you can't make GREAT strides, but he can still improve somewhat. I definitely see him more as a 3, but I think its completely reasonable (given that he improves in the aforementioned areas) to think that he couldn't slide over and play a little SG (again, this is in the pros, not in college). Different teams have different matchup problems so I'm sure he'd see some time there...Not to mention, I don't think he's athletic enough or tall enough to play down low in the pros, so he'll HAVE to develop those skills.



And in college, where teams are smaller and the game is even more perimeter-oriented, King could not play anything other than the 4/5 at Duke. And, quite frankly, it doesn't make sense to play him anywhere else. The advantage gained by pulling a bigger guy away from the basket is far greater than his going against a smaller guy.

I agree a lot with the last sentence and think that this is huge part of taylor's effectiveness on the court. But in the post you quoted, I believe I said I could see him starting at the 3 in the 09-10 season and my reasoning was that we could have Zoubek at the 5, Singler at the 4 (if he's still here), and then Taylor at the 3. If by that time Taylor is a better player than Ewill (who knows at this point, but thats not an outrageous assumption) then I don't see why its unreasonable to think he might start at the 3 instead of benching him for an inferior player just so you can sub him in at the 4 or 5...

DukeBlood
01-25-2008, 03:39 PM
I for one am LOVING this season. Watching such a team grow, fight and bond together as a team. Whats not to love.

With that being said, I also love recruiting. It interests me very much. Love talking about it, reading about it and hearing about it. I dont think its unreasonable to talk about future teams and not enjoy this season. If you dont like what you are reading.. You could stop, Unless of course you are a mod ;) Gotta make sure everyone is following the rules.

In two years... A question NYC brought up.

Nolan Smith- We all have seen what he can do in the 17-20 mins he's getting a game. Two years from now, He can be capable of alot more if he makes the usually improvements. He's a very hard worker so I have no problem believing he will make those improvements and a little extra.

Taylor King- Obviously will be a deep threat. With some improvements will offer more of a inside presence, be a better defender and a very good rebounder. Should be a good player from 2 years from now.

Kyle Singler- Biggest question is if he will still be a Devil? I hope so! If he is well he will most likely be Dukes best player. Im guessing he will have more of a consistent outside shot, be stronger and be a leader.

Elliot Williams- Hasn't finished his HS career yet. Its always fun to ponder about these things though :). Everything I have read/seen is that he is one of the best scoring guards in a weak class. I have heard he is a above average defender and he is obvoiusly very athletic. I believe he will start as a SO.

Olek Czyz- He could be a lotto winner. His HS ranking is barely in the Top-100(or was, havent checked recently). A very hard worker with lots of upside. Good FT shooter and 6'8 with a 40'' verticle. Should help out in the rebounding department.

Other recruits- Gotta hope we land a couple. Main targets start with Boynton and Echenique. Then hope we land another big whether its Painter or Riley and McDonald. Heard this kid was a clone to E-Will?? Someone correct me if im wrong.

Bob Green
01-25-2008, 04:22 PM
I see this as not a time of worry, but opportunity. BTW, does anyone know about the injury reported several weeks ago to Elliott Willians? Is he all right?

This article contains an update (http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/jan/25/bowers-keeps-gryphons-rolling/)on Elliot Williams' health.

Delaware
01-26-2008, 04:21 AM
Not sure if they were looking at Ryan Kelly of Ravenscroft, but not sure who else on either squad they would be recruiting. He had 31 points and scored his 1000th point in his HS career during the game.

yancem
01-26-2008, 05:33 PM
Yea but wait til we have to play a team like UNC were he has to guard either thompson or hansblah if he plays the 4. He'll get eaten alive.

I've never understood why people think so highly of Thompson. He's a solid player and may develop into a stud but he is far from one now. I think that King on the perimeter is just as much of a mismatch for Thompson as Thompson on the interior is for King. Of course Hansolo will certainly eat King alive but he does that to just about everyone. Also, how comfortable to think he will be 25 ft from the basket trying to cover King?

Ignatius07
01-27-2008, 12:14 AM
I think you can rest assured that Hansbrough will never guard King except on switch-outs. We wouldn't want that anyway - it would mean King would be our acting 5 and would be guarding Hansbrough on the other end.

DavidBenAkiva
01-27-2008, 04:10 AM
I was just thinking through stuff about recruiting, and rather than starting a new thread, thought that I would add to this thread.

In the 2005 recruting class, Duke was ranked #2 behind Kansas: Brandon Rush, Juilan Wright, Micah Downs, and Mario Chalmers. Wright's in the NBA, Downs transfered to Gonzaga, and Rush and Chalmers are in their Junior year. (that was the year we had Josh McRoberts, Greg Paulus, Eric Boateng, Martynas Pocius, and Jamal Boykin.

Since then, we've brought in seven new guys, all of whom are still with the team and playing significant mintues.

We constantly fret and worry about losing recruits to other schools (Patrick Patterson comes to mind) and guys transferring away or going pro. This happens elswhere, too.

Sometimes, the best recruiting is done by going for the right player (Chris Duhon, Daniel Ewing, Luol Deng, etc.), not just a lot of players.

Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana

Ignatius07
01-27-2008, 10:03 AM
I definitely agree that attrition affects every top program, and I am certainly not a sky-is-falling type in terms of current Duke recruiting (at least not yet - let's see what happens with 09), but I think Kansas is a bad comparison.


In the 2005 recruting class, Duke was ranked #2 behind Kansas: Brandon Rush, Juilan Wright, Micah Downs, and Mario Chalmers. Wright's in the NBA, Downs transfered to Gonzaga, and Rush and Chalmers are in their Junior year. (that was the year we had Josh McRoberts, Greg Paulus, Eric Boateng, Martynas Pocius, and Jamal Boykin.

Kansas's 05 class is more or less what a coach should expect from an elite-level recruiting class. Wright was the consensus #6 prospect in that class - so Self cannot have been shocked when he left. He gave Kansas two solid years and his potential was clear. Micah Downs is obviously a disappointment since he left, but, as you say, this happens to top programs. And then there is Rush and Chalmers. Both are averaging 12 points, while Rush has 5rpg and Chalmers has 5apg. Both will probably leave for the NBA after this season.

Duke's 05 recruiting class, on the other hand, is the true cause of the recruiting angst on these boards. Paulus is having his first good year, McRoberts had two solid but less-than-expected years, Pocius has been injury-plagued, and Boykin and Boateng both left before they could contribute. All the whining about missing on post prospects would not be as shrill if this class had somewhat lived up to expectations.

Yes, every good school suffers from transfers and departures for the NBA, but the only thing keeping Duke's 05 class from being an unmitigated disaster is the veteran leadership, savvy, and 3-point shooting of Greg Paulus.

DavidBenAkiva
01-27-2008, 11:31 AM
You make some good points Ignatious, but I think what I am trying to get at is that every school has "problems" from time to time. What I like is that we have really solid kids right now. We don't need to recruit a top-tier 4 or 5 for this team.

I think that it's better that we have seven guys recruited in the last few years that are going to develop over the course of their college careers. Look at Florida! I think that I like this situation better than a "top" class. I/m excited about this team, the underclassmen, and the two recruits we have coming in next year. I don't think that we will lose any of them to the draft (maybe after their third year?) or transfer and if they continue to make strides, we could have a really good team.

Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana

Bob Green
01-27-2008, 04:35 PM
This article (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080127/COL08/801270649/1057) is about the #1 rated football recruit Pryor, but the message fits into this thread perfectly. We all need to control our expectations of high school players. Some turn out to be much better than advertised, while others do not live up to the general public's expectations.

gotham devil
01-27-2008, 11:21 PM
http://www.hoopscooponline.com/visitors/free-visitors.html

Johnson also tells us that it now appears to be a five way race among Michigan, Michigan State, Xavier, Georgetown, and Ohio State for 6'11 DaShonte Riley from Birmingham (Detroit Country Day) MI, who is ranked #13 nationally in the junior class by the HOOP SCOOP, and that North Carolina, Michigan, Michigan State, and Maryland already have the early jump on 6'9 Frosh Amir Williams from Birmingham (Detroit Country Day) MI, who has emerged as one of the top freshmen in the state and better freshmen in the nation this winter.

freedevil
01-28-2008, 08:14 AM
^ Ech.

hondoheel
01-29-2008, 09:25 AM
Kenny Boynton update:

http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/Jonathan-Givony

phaedrus
01-29-2008, 09:44 AM
I think you can rest assured that Hansbrough will never guard King except on switch-outs. We wouldn't want that anyway - it would mean King would be our acting 5 and would be guarding Hansbrough on the other end.

Doesn't really matter if Hansbrough is guarding King on the perimeter, Singler on the wing, or J-Davidson down low. All of these are mismatches in our favor. Hansbrough can't guard anyone.

CMS2478
01-29-2008, 09:53 AM
Not sure if they were looking at Ryan Kelly of Ravenscroft, but not sure who else on either squad they would be recruiting. He had 31 points and scored his 1000th point in his HS career during the game.

That had to be who they were looking at, nobody else on their team is good enought to play at Duke.....I don't think. My question is.........Is Kelly good enough to play at Duke? I saw him play at the Glaxo and he is talented but is slow and skinny and really needs to put on some muscle to compete in the ACC. Not sure if he is Duke caliber, but our "big guy" situation may require them to take someone we normally wouldn't. I will leave that up to the coaching staff.

RepoMan
01-29-2008, 10:19 AM
Kenny Boynton update:

http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/Jonathan-Givony

Surprisingly harsh critique of intangible qualities, though I guess that's why our Tar Heel friend posted it.

whereinthehellami
01-29-2008, 10:22 AM
Kenny Boynton update:

http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/Jonathan-Givony

Someone sure likes to be the bearer of bad news. I was looking at your posting history and you sure do chime in alot on the negative side of all things Duke. Kinda of like a slow troll. Good heel? Bad heel? Hmmm.

kramerbr
01-29-2008, 05:43 PM
I've been doing a little searching on the wondeful world wide web and came across an article from Scout.com that mentioned Terrell Vinson as a 2009 Duke recruit. From what I understood was that he was either at the Duke/Maryland game or was watching it on tv because he is interested in both schools(I'm not a member so it was very vague).

Until now I hadn't really heard much about him as a big target. The main talk seems to be about Echenique, Boynton, Riley, and Painter. Is there any word on an official visit to Duke in the near future?

freedevil
01-29-2008, 07:13 PM
Kenny Boynton update:

http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/Jonathan-Givony

I can't wait for a thread sent down from the mods on why hondoheel, like PY, had to be let go :D

dukefan47
02-18-2008, 05:34 PM
Any news on the recruitment of Leslie McDonald?
Also I hear that we are the frontrunner for Kenny Boynton and we have a good shot at Greg Echinique.
Are these true?
thanks

speedevil
02-18-2008, 10:45 PM
duke has just offered some guy from nc named mason plumlee.
as for mcdonald, boynton, and echinique: theres no new news.

where did u hear that duke's the frontrunner for boynton?

everyone has a good shot at echinique.

dont believe the hype, until it happens

TwoDukeTattoos
02-20-2008, 09:38 PM
Does anyone know if we have a legit center coming in next year?

Ignatius07
02-20-2008, 10:56 PM
Yes, I know. No, we do not. A "true center" would hardly be a panacea, though. This team won 22 of its first 23 without one.

Bob Green
02-20-2008, 11:43 PM
where did u hear that duke's the frontrunner for boynton?



From the best source (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=24423) for Duke basketball news.

heyman25
02-21-2008, 12:37 AM
I don't know why or what reasons this staff can't get a power forward or center that can help Kyle in the paint. They aren't looking hard enough. I like Lance, but he is never going to have the frame to contend with Dwayne Collins or James Johnson or Tyler Hansborough. Zoubek was better but he is almost finishing his 2nd year.Maybe by his Senior year he will be a force. For a program like Duke don't understand why we can't find a good 4 or 5 position player. Echenique would be good but we have about a 25% chance of getting him.And I heard he was at Miami tonight though that may be a rumour.

Icarus09
02-21-2008, 08:17 AM
Admissions standards and intangible personality characteristics probably narrow the field.

Icarus09
02-21-2008, 08:22 AM
Doesn't really matter if Hansbrough is guarding King on the perimeter, Singler on the wing, or J-Davidson down low. All of these are mismatches in our favor. Hansbrough can't guard anyone.

Hansbrough has become a more polished D player I think especially this year. True, he is not as athletic as some but he can move his feet well. He also appears smart enough to stay out of foul trouble nearly every game; a pretty amazing feet considering how physical his game is. Didn't he also draw something like 2-3 charges in the first 10 minutes against Duke?

slower
02-21-2008, 08:27 AM
Anybody have any opinion on how a win or loss will affect the decisions of McDonald and the rest of our honored guests at the Holes game? It just seems that another performance like last night might leave a sour taste for some of our recruits.

bluedev_92
02-21-2008, 08:58 AM
Or it might make them feel that they could help the team. Realistically, it's going to be about the recruits chemistry with the team & coaches...

slower
02-21-2008, 09:10 AM
Or it might make them feel that they could help the team. Realistically, it's going to be about the recruits chemistry with the team & coaches...

Good point - thanks. I know it's impossible for us to get inside their heads and to really know what motivates them. Anyway, I hope you're right!

Icarus09
02-21-2008, 09:21 AM
McDonald find the 15 million dollar Center for Athletic Excellence pleasing too.

kramerbr
02-24-2008, 08:13 AM
I'm just going on a hunch and thinking that he was probably at the Memphis/UT game last night. If thats the case I hope the Duke/UNC game he attends next month will be equally if not more impressive and he will see the caliber of play that the ACC has to offer.

Ignatius07
02-24-2008, 11:15 AM
It will certainly show the drastic difference of playing in a large, NBA arena and the more old-school college feel of Cameron. Different people go for different things.

JasonEvans
02-24-2008, 01:00 PM
For all the handwringing over big man recruits lately, I'd just like to point out the play of our current soph bigs, Lance and Zoub, lately. They have been very capable in the post. As many of us mentioned before the season even began, by next year it is pretty reasonable to think they will be better than just about anyone we would have brought in as a post in the current high school class. Perhaps that is why K targetted Monroe and no one else for bigs in this class.

--Jason "Zoub was DA MAN yesterday and you have to admire the energy Thomas plays with-- full speed ahead!!" Evans

kcduke75
02-24-2008, 10:04 PM
I assume one was Plumlee, but I thought I saw another one. Any ideas?

And who will be visiting for the UNC game?

thanks

Ignatius07
02-24-2008, 10:28 PM
For all the handwringing over big man recruits lately, I'd just like to point out the play of our current soph bigs, Lance and Zoub, lately. They have been very capable in the post. As many of us mentioned before the season even began, by next year it is pretty reasonable to think they will be better than just about anyone we would have brought in as a post in the current high school class. Perhaps that is why K targetted Monroe and no one else for bigs in this class.

Right. But there is reason for a certain degree of urgency in landing bigs in 09, since even if the last few games is indicative of the improvement we will see in Z and LT, they will be seniors when a HS junior steps on campus.

BD80
02-24-2008, 11:15 PM
I assume one was Plumlee, but I thought I saw another one. Any ideas?



May have been one of Mason's two brothers, each of whom plays on the same high school team.

Uncle Drew
02-24-2008, 11:32 PM
For all the handwringing over big man recruits lately, I'd just like to point out the play of our current soph bigs, Lance and Zoub, lately. They have been very capable in the post. As many of us mentioned before the season even began, by next year it is pretty reasonable to think they will be better than just about anyone we would have brought in as a post in the current high school class. Perhaps that is why K targetted Monroe and no one else for bigs in this class.

--Jason "Zoub was DA MAN yesterday and you have to admire the energy Thomas plays with-- full speed ahead!!" Evans

Jason you make a valid point about the improved play of Lance and Brian. As one of the "handwringers" (you sure that's one word?) I for one was not at all convinced we'd get much improvement out of either one. Just the increased fluid movement of both players has made me want to stand up and cheer like a JJ 3.

A lot of us were REALLY concerned Zoub was going to end up being a Newton, Randolph or Domzalski. And Lance perhaps a Casey "Hand Of Stone" Sanders. And to be fair at the start of the season I for one didn't see much improvement in either guy. But I think since the UNC game Lance has showed how athletic he really is. And since Brian came back from his injury he seems more fundamentally sound AND coordinated. (Is there any chance Zoubek was already hurt before they discovered it, because I've never seen a player improve so much after being out with an injury?)

I'm not sure who made the point after we lost out on Monroe, perhaps it was you; that perhaps having Zoubek served to deter Monroe from committing from Duke. If Zoub and Lance keep improving I can see what Greg was timid for. That being said we'd all like to see some verbals coming in from the next class, just to know what we have lined up for the future.

Blueequalslife23
02-24-2008, 11:33 PM
Ok everybody it looks like we almost have Mason Plumlee and Kenny Boynton locked up. So let's talk otherwise we are in need of 2 more. As of now no one has a clue about Mcdonald he is a toss up but maybe the unc game might persuade him. As for Echenique it looks like we are slim on getting him but i suspect that is why Coach K had Kenny Hall visit with Plumlee for a back up plan. Any thoughts?

Uncle Drew
02-24-2008, 11:36 PM
Ok everybody it looks like we almost have Mason Plumlee and Kenny Boynton locked up. So let's talk otherwise we are in need of 2 more. As of now no one has a clue about Mcdonald he is a toss up but maybe the unc game might persuade him. As for Echenique it looks like we are slim on getting him but i suspect that is why Coach K had Kenny Hall visit with Plumlee for a back up plan. Any thoughts?

Great questions, and I'm not going to even pretend to know. Heck I don't know why you say Echenique looks like he won't be attending Duke, I'm that far out of the loop right now. Wait until Jim Sumner gets the time to explain. And I'm also intrested in knowing who IU had coming in and due to their LOI releases if any might be candidates to play for Duke?

yancem
02-24-2008, 11:40 PM
Ok everybody it looks like we almost have Mason Plumlee and Kenny Boynton locked up. So let's talk otherwise we are in need of 2 more. As of now no one has a clue about Mcdonald he is a toss up but maybe the unc game might persuade him. As for Echenique it looks like we are slim on getting him but i suspect that is why Coach K had Kenny Hall visit with Plumlee for a back up plan. Any thoughts?

And you know any of this how? While I think that we are probably in good shape with both Plumlee and Boynton (it is especially encouraging that Plumlee has been to two games in the last couple of weeks and is going to be at the UNC game) but until the commit, I would place them in the win column just yet. As for McDonald and Echenique, do you have any information to back up your statements? If so, please provide links.

watzone
02-25-2008, 07:53 AM
And you know any of this how? While I think that we are probably in good shape with both Plumlee and Boynton (it is especially encouraging that Plumlee has been to two games in the last couple of weeks and is going to be at the UNC game) but until the commit, I would place them in the win column just yet. As for McDonald and Echenique, do you have any information to back up your statements? If so, please provide links.

What Yancey said ... links? It's fair to say that we impressed Plumlee greatly and that we have recruited Botnton hard and that he always mentions Duke, but as has been said, lets not count anything done until it actually is or at least has been made public by the prospect.

Unrelated to this message, but concerning questions on this thread - It's funny how so many people are suddenly seen experts on recruiting on this board. Especially after all they do is read others hard work on premium boards. Folks, if you don't call, seek out and talk to prospects, go to AAU events, games, network sources which are years in the making not to mention staffs of different schools, check out a guy at least twice before you comment on his abilities, or just simply get the information firsthand, you are not a recruiting expert nor do some qualify to seemingly make themselves be seen as such. There are far too many enjoying or wanting that status who do not do the work. I get tickled to see someone make authoratative comments from what they have read. Speculate and talk all you want, but don't make yourself out to be all knowing by commenting as a spert when you couldn't pick out the prospect you are talking about in a room of four people. Leave some of that part of Duke to us who work this area hard. Please. Rant over;)

yancem
02-25-2008, 08:02 AM
What Yancey said ... links? It's fair to say that we impressed Plumlee greatly and that we have recruited Botnton hard and that he always mentions Duke, but as has been said, lets not count anything done until it actually is or at least has been made public by the prospect.

Unrelated to this message, but concerning questions on this thread - It's funny how so many people are suddenly seen experts on recruiting on this board. Especially after all they do is read others hard work on premium boards. Folks, if you don't call, seek out and talk to prospects, go to AAU events, games, network sources which are years in the making not to mention staffs of different schools, check out a guy at least twice before you comment on his abilities, or just simply get the information firsthand, you are not a recruiting expert nor do some qualify to seemingly make themselves be seen as such. There are far too many enjoying or wanting that status who do not do the work. I get tickled to see someone make authoratative comments from what they have read. Speculate and talk all you want, but don't make yourself out to be all knowing by commenting as a spert when you couldn't pick out the prospect you are talking about in a room of four people. Leave some of that part of Duke to us who work this area hard. Please. Rant over;)

Amen brother!

BluDvil03
02-25-2008, 10:12 AM
Unrelated to this message, but concerning questions on this thread - It's funny how so many people are suddenly seen experts on recruiting on this board. Especially after all they do is read others hard work on premium boards. Folks, if you don't call, seek out and talk to prospects, go to AAU events, games, network sources which are years in the making not to mention staffs of different schools, check out a guy at least twice before you comment on his abilities, or just simply get the information firsthand, you are not a recruiting expert nor do some qualify to seemingly make themselves be seen as such. There are far too many enjoying or wanting that status who do not do the work. I get tickled to see someone make authoratative comments from what they have read. Speculate and talk all you want, but don't make yourself out to be all knowing by commenting as a spert when you couldn't pick out the prospect you are talking about in a room of four people. Leave some of that part of Duke to us who work this area hard. Please. Rant over;)So...what time does the bus leave for the airport?

NYC Duke Fan
02-26-2008, 01:19 AM
Is Duke recruiting both or is it one or the other ? If it is both how much playing time would there be with Williams and Smith ahead of them ? If it is both do either of them play PG ?

NYC Duke Fan
02-26-2008, 01:20 AM
Is Coach K recruiting him ? If the answer is no, then why not ?

JasonEvans
02-26-2008, 08:18 AM
Is Coach K recruiting him (Lance Stephenson)? If the answer is no, then why not ?

I think we are generally listed among his schools but I don't think we are all that actively involved with him at this point. Our wing-guard focus seems to largely be on Kenny Boynton and Leslie McDonald.

As for why we are not going harder after Stephenson -- I have no idea. Coach K makes decisions based on a lot more than who is the highest ranked kid available. He tries to get a sense of how the kid would fit in at Duke and on the team. I have no idea about what kind of person Stephenson is as a student, how he works with his teammates, his attitude about playing time, what kind of family/friends he has surrounding him, how quickly he is looking to get to the NBA, or a thousand other factors that could be a source of concern for Coach K.

It is also worth noting that K frequently sees something in a kid that the recruiting gurus do not. K almost certainly feels that Boynton and McDonald are better fits at Duke and who knows why he feels that way. He may get to know Stephenson better and change his mind too.

It seems like a silly and simplistic refrain but I really find it best to trust K's instincts when it comes to recruiting. Yeah, he makes some bad calls, but he generally does a pretty decent job of getting it right.

-Jason "I think that last graph is the way I close 90% of my comments on recruiting" Evans

freedevil
02-26-2008, 08:24 AM
What I'm interested in is how the recruitment of Kenny Boynton and Leslie McDonald affects our potential recruiting of Brandon Knight. That kid, Knight, seems insanely talented.

JasonEvans
02-26-2008, 08:43 AM
What I'm interested in is how the recruitment of Kenny Boynton and Leslie McDonald affects our potential recruiting of Brandon Knight. That kid, Knight, seems insanely talented.

Knight is a pure PG while Boynton and McDonald are more wings. I don't see any problem/overlap there.

--Jason "if K could make JWill and Duhon work so well, he can handle these kids" Evans

NYC Duke Fan
02-26-2008, 09:06 AM
I think we are generally listed among his schools but I don't think we are all that actively involved with him at this point. Our wing-guard focus seems to largely be on Kenny Boynton and Leslie McDonald.

As for why we are not going harder after Stephenson -- I have no idea. Coach K makes decisions based on a lot more than who is the highest ranked kid available. He tries to get a sense of how the kid would fit in at Duke and on the team. I have no idea about what kind of person Stephenson is as a student, how he works with his teammates, his attitude about playing time, what kind of family/friends he has surrounding him, how quickly he is looking to get to the NBA, or a thousand other factors that could be a source of concern for Coach K.

It is also worth noting that K frequently sees something in a kid that the recruiting gurus do not. K almost certainly feels that Boynton and McDonald are better fits at Duke and who knows why he feels that way. He may get to know Stephenson better and change his mind too.

It seems like a silly and simplistic refrain but I really find it best to trust K's instincts when it comes to recruiting. Yeah, he makes some bad calls, but he generally does a pretty decent job of getting it right.

-Jason "I think that last graph is the way I close 90% of my comments on recruiting" Evans

I gather then that Coach K is recruiting BOTH Boynton AND McDonald. Do you see any problem with playing time for both with Williams and Smith ahead of them? If Coach K does recruit Knight as a pure PG, is there enough minutes for 5 back court players?

As to Plumlee...didn't I read that his father did not envision him putting on 30 pounds and then playing under the basket. He wants him to take advantage of his passing and outside shooting skills. That said, aside from Esch,( Don't know the spelling of his last name ..sorry ), is there any other true center that is being recruited ?

Icarus09
02-26-2008, 09:31 AM
I gather then that Coach K is recruiting BOTH Boynton AND McDonald. Do you see any problem with playing time for both with Williams and Smith ahead of them? If Coach K does recruit Knight as a pure PG, is there enough minutes for 5 back court players?

As to Plumlee...didn't I read that his father did not envision him putting on 30 pounds and then playing under the basket. He wants him to take advantage of his passing and outside shooting skills. That said, aside from Esch,( Don't know the spelling of his last name ..sorry ), is there any other true center that is being recruited ?

Kenny Hall was at the St. John's game, although we can't offer to him right now.

NYC Duke Fan
02-26-2008, 09:58 AM
Kenny Hall was at the St. John's game, although we can't offer to him right now.

Sorry, but I do not know who Kenny Hall is. Can you tell me something about him and why can't we offer him now ?

thank you

Icarus09
02-26-2008, 10:07 AM
Sorry, but I do not know who Kenny Hall is. Can you tell me something about him and why can't we offer him now ?

thank you

I'm afraid I don't know that much about him, I don't have a premium membership anywhere to read the new stuff about his comments about his visit. I saw that scout.com finally put him on Duke's list of recruits. As for why we can't offer him, we have four scholarship offers out now for KB, McDonald, Echenique, and Plumlee. I think four is all we have available. I'm not sure if Coach K ever offers more scholarships then what he'll have room for. Does anyone know why we're more interested in Hall than Painter?

SilkyJ
02-26-2008, 10:36 AM
I assume one was Plumlee, but I thought I saw another one. Any ideas?

And who will be visiting for the UNC game?

thanks

Others mentioned this but I dont think anyone responded directly: it was Kenny Hall, a 6'9 (ish) 215 (ish) center. Scout has him ranked 50-75 ish, but rivals has him much higher, like 20-30ish (I think)




Unrelated to this message, but concerning questions on this thread - It's funny how so many people are suddenly seen experts on recruiting on this board. Especially after all they do is read others hard work on premium boards. Folks, if you don't call, seek out and talk to prospects, go to AAU events, games, network sources which are years in the making not to mention staffs of different schools, check out a guy at least twice before you comment on his abilities, or just simply get the information firsthand, you are not a recruiting expert nor do some qualify to seemingly make themselves be seen as such.... Rant over;)

Luckily, I think there are enough members here that know we know who to listen to (like you) and who's just regurgitating info or rumor mongering etc.

We got your back watman.



It seems like a silly and simplistic refrain but I really find it best to trust K's instincts when it comes to recruiting. Yeah, he makes some bad calls, but he generally does a pretty decent job of getting it right.

-Jason "I think that last graph is the way I close 90% of my comments on recruiting" Evans

I couldn't agree more. I am happy with that explanation 95% of the time with regard to ANY topic involving Coach K. The guy knows what he is doing. Period.


Sorry, but I do not know who Kenny Hall is. Can you tell me something about him and why can't we offer him now ?

thank you

See above for a bit of info.

Its no that we CAN'T offer him, its that our policy is if we have 4 scholarship slots, we only offer 4 people. Then if one of the four commits elsewhere, we offer his scholarship to someone else (like when Murphy when to FL and then we offered Plumlee).

As Jim Sumner explained it to me in another thread, other schools do not follow this practice and will instead give out 10 scholarships for 4 slots, and just say "first come, first serve." This is allowed, and I believe UNC does this. We, however, do not.

Jumbo
02-26-2008, 10:42 AM
What Yancey said ... links? It's fair to say that we impressed Plumlee greatly and that we have recruited Botnton hard and that he always mentions Duke, but as has been said, lets not count anything done until it actually is or at least has been made public by the prospect.

Unrelated to this message, but concerning questions on this thread - It's funny how so many people are suddenly seen experts on recruiting on this board. Especially after all they do is read others hard work on premium boards. Folks, if you don't call, seek out and talk to prospects, go to AAU events, games, network sources which are years in the making not to mention staffs of different schools, check out a guy at least twice before you comment on his abilities, or just simply get the information firsthand, you are not a recruiting expert nor do some qualify to seemingly make themselves be seen as such. There are far too many enjoying or wanting that status who do not do the work. I get tickled to see someone make authoratative comments from what they have read. Speculate and talk all you want, but don't make yourself out to be all knowing by commenting as a spert when you couldn't pick out the prospect you are talking about in a room of four people. Leave some of that part of Duke to us who work this area hard. Please. Rant over;)

I'd like to say this is one of the most obnoxious things I've read in a long time, which is saying a lot, since this board includes posts from me.

watzone
02-26-2008, 11:29 AM
I'd like to say this is one of the most obnoxious things I've read in a long time, which is saying a lot, since this board includes posts from me.

I fully admit to it being obnoxious, especially in hindsight. The editing features here do not allow you to retract or erase anything. Yeah, I know - think twice. It's okay to remove the rant should you see fit to do so. It is admitedly quite arrogant sounding. If you were sitting in my shoes and knew all the details which set me off, you might understand better Jumbo/others. Still, it was horribly worded and I realize not many here care. It just bothers me that the very people who do not pay for the information, yet are given it are most often the ones who seemingly can't remember that they got their schtick/take from knowledge gained only at premium sites. It's sorta like they feel everybody must know what they have read and it is okay to talk it up. With that talk being news to most, they are then seen as in the know and another (I hate this term) insider is born. Then there is rumor mongering .. I heard, she said. OMG, I did it again;) I had my say and promise to be quite congenial from here on. I will save the forum from further rants past this one.

watzone
02-26-2008, 12:29 PM
Others mentioned this but I dont think anyone responded directly: it was Kenny Hall, a 6'9 (ish) 215 (ish) center. Scout has him ranked 50-75 ish, but rivals has him much higher, like 20-30ish (I think)

He is getting better every time out. He didn't start balling until the eigth grade.



Its no that we CAN'T offer him, its that our policy is if we have 4 scholarship slots, we only offer 4 people. Then if one of the four commits elsewhere, we offer his scholarship to someone else (like when Murphy when to FL and then we offered Plumlee).

As Jim Sumner explained it to me in another thread, other schools do not follow this practice and will instead give out 10 scholarships for 4 slots, and just say "first come, first serve." This is allowed, and I believe UNC does this. We, however, do not.

This is the general rule, but in anything can happen in recruiting. Echenique's April visit (UNC game too) is a situation where he will he "might" have two players desitiny in his hands. As for UNC's style of recruiting that Jim mentioned, well, the good thing is that you get one of the Wears, but the bad thing is you get both. IOW, you can't take one without the other, thus Plumlee may fall to Duke and that's fine by me.

Madrasdukie
02-26-2008, 05:15 PM
That's what this link says:

http://www.rivals.com/barrier_noentry.asp?sid=&script=content.asp&cid=778964&fid=&tid=&mid=&rid=

topps coach
02-26-2008, 09:40 PM
I have to agree with watzone regarding commenting on recruits that u have only seen on a 2 minute video. Up until three tears ago ,I coached some pretty good AAU teams and was at a aau tourney practically every week .Then I could give a halfway intelligent opinion on most top-flite players,but even then I could not accurately tell u what a 17 yr old kid was going to do. As I sugested in aprevios thread. let K evaluate who is the best fit for DUKE .

Madrasdukie
02-27-2008, 04:10 PM
This board has discussed alternate big men prospects for 2009 (Painter, Riley, Hall...) in the event that Echenique doesn't sign. I was wondering if anyone knows of alternate guard prospects that Duke may be considering for 2009, in the event that Boynton &/ McDonald don't sign.

dukefan47
02-27-2008, 06:49 PM
Any chance that Duke throws out a fifth scholly for 2009?
say to Kenny Hall, Jon Hood, DeShonte Riley, Derrick Favors, or someone else?

watzone
02-27-2008, 07:56 PM
Any chance that Duke throws out a fifth scholly for 2009?
say to Kenny Hall, Jon Hood, DeShonte Riley, Derrick Favors, or someone else?

Not unless A- they kick somebody off the team (jest) or B- or offer on a first come first serve basis. As Jim Sumner said earlier in this thread that is improbable, but not impossible come Spring time or so.

watzone
03-02-2008, 09:33 PM
Kenny Hall commited to Tennessee today.

Faison1
03-02-2008, 09:46 PM
Hey Watzone.....any feeling about Leslie M.? Is his change of schedule for the UNC-Duke game mean anything at all? Besides affordability, that is? If this is info that only goes on your site, I understand. Thanks for all of your great insight.

DukeBlood
03-02-2008, 10:02 PM
Hey Watzone.....any feeling about Leslie M.? Is his change of schedule for the UNC-Duke game mean anything at all? Besides affordability, that is? If this is info that only goes on your site, I understand. Thanks for all of your great insight.

He talks about it in the Thread called "Plumlee commitment to Duke". As do a few other posters.

Not quite sure if i can copy and paste what he said?? Anyway, its on the 2nd page of DBR and on the 3rd page of the thread.

NYC Duke Fan
03-03-2008, 10:43 AM
Is Duke Recruiting any of the following:


Daniel Orton from Oklahoma City

Demarcus Cousins from Mobile Alabama

Derrick Favors from Atlanta, Georgia

Renardo Sidney from Los Angeles

Keith Gallon from Oak Hill

Have any of the above verbally committed to a school ?

Madrasdukie
03-03-2008, 11:19 AM
Kenny Hall commited to Tennessee today.

Thanks. I guess it's Echenique or Painter/Riley...

Madrasdukie
03-03-2008, 11:22 AM
He talks about his plans on visiting Duke....

http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=780530

Faison1
03-03-2008, 12:49 PM
He talks about his plans on visiting Duke....

http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=780530

Thanks for the link. I also asked Watzone in the Plumlee thread to ease my fears, but i didn't get a response. I guess I'm feeling a little sensitive about recruiting these days. Just like another poster stated above....when you see your neighbor get a sweet car, or an addition to the house, one might become a little introspective.

Madrasdukie
03-03-2008, 01:21 PM
Thanks for the link. I also asked Watzone in the Plumlee thread to ease my fears, but i didn't get a response. I guess I'm feeling a little sensitive about recruiting these days. Just like another poster stated above....when you see your neighbor get a sweet car, or an addition to the house, one might become a little introspective.

I hear you. I'm sure most Duke fans, if not all feel the same way more or less. However, trust in K's capability and track record is always assuaging.

As far as Watzone's response, he gives a lot of recruiting information to this board as soon as it becomes public (as you may have noticed), however, one of the reasons for his silence to certain questions may be the fact that he runs a premium site and has to be fair to his paying members. I guess there could be other reasons as well, unbeknownst to me....

Duke79UNLV77
03-03-2008, 04:07 PM
Is Duke Recruiting any of the following:


Daniel Orton from Oklahoma City
Demarcus Cousins from Mobile Alabama
Derrick Favors from Atlanta, Georgia
Renardo Sidney from Los Angeles
Keith Gallon from Oak Hill
Have any of the above verbally committed to a school ?


Cousins is listed as committed to UAB. I don't know about the others, but I haven't heard that we are actively recruiting them either. Plumlee seems to be a solid recruit, but we also clearly need an inside-oriented player. Not sure if we are actively pursuing anyone beside Echnique who fits that mold right now. I'm a little suprised with the predictions of "just wait until the 2009 class!" that currently we have signed a perimeter-oriented PF ranked #65 in the country and offered one other player ranked #45, at least according to Rivals.

watzone
03-03-2008, 05:20 PM
Kenny Boynton has cancelled his visit for the UNC game. It was due to a family situation. Remember, it was an unofficial. It's really sad he will miss the best atmosphere and rivalry in college hoops.

Blueequalslife23
03-03-2008, 05:23 PM
that really sucks the two biggest names we had going to that game arn't going any more!

Madrasdukie
03-03-2008, 06:18 PM
Kenny Boynton has cancelled his visit for the UNC game. It was due to a family situation. Remember, it was an unofficial. It's really sad he will miss the best atmosphere and rivalry in college hoops.

Thanks again. The fact that these are unofficials does lessen the disappointment. Not that this may matter much but this cancelled visit also means that Boynton and McDonald don't get to visit Duke together (and meet Echenique and Plumlee at the same visit).

gofurman
03-03-2008, 07:39 PM
Thanks again. The fact that these are unofficials does lessen the disappointment. Not that this may matter much but this cancelled visit also means that Boynton and McDonald don't get to visit Duke together (and meet Echenique and Plumlee at the same visit).

SO which recruits ARE coming to Duke / UNC game ?

Madrasdukie
03-04-2008, 08:57 AM
SO which recruits ARE coming to Duke / UNC game ?

From what I recall from Watzone's post on this board awhile ago, Echenique and Plumlee will be at the game.

duke211
03-04-2008, 11:29 AM
there are major back up plans, we cant be waiting until next June for these guys, like we did with Monroe and Fracturson Patterson

Ignatius07
03-04-2008, 11:37 AM
Monroe decided in the fall of his senior year, before the national signing date. Not late by any standard.

mgtr
03-04-2008, 05:53 PM
there are major back up plans, we cant be waiting until next June for these guys, like we did with Monroe and Fracturson Patterson

I think that PP turned out to be a much better player than expected. I was sorry to him injured, even though he playing for another team. That may have put paid to UK's season. With PP, they may well have been able to beat Tennessee, which would really have stirred things up in the SEC.

CatfiveCane
03-04-2008, 10:30 PM
He was scheduled to visit this weekend, but rumor is he canceled his visit.

Is this true? Will he reschedule? Or is Duke out of the running?

DukeBlood
03-04-2008, 10:45 PM
He was scheduled to visit this weekend, but rumor is he canceled his visit.

Is this true? Will he reschedule? Or is Duke out of the running?

Dont mean to step on any toe's.

However Watzone already said it was due to family reasons. Said nothing about it being a black eye against Duke or any of the sort.

Maybe watzone or someone else will comment further but I dont see it as any big deal.

yancem
03-05-2008, 10:18 AM
Is Duke Recruiting any of the following:

Daniel Orton from Oklahoma City
Demarcus Cousins from Mobile Alabama
Derrick Favors from Atlanta, Georgia
Renardo Sidney from Los Angeles
Keith Gallon from Oak Hill

Have any of the above verbally committed to a school ?


Cousins is listed as committed to UAB. I don't know about the others, but I haven't heard that we are actively recruiting them either. Plumlee seems to be a solid recruit, but we also clearly need an inside-oriented player. Not sure if we are actively pursuing anyone beside Echnique who fits that mold right now. I'm a little suprised with the predictions of "just wait until the 2009 class!" that currently we have signed a perimeter-oriented PF ranked #65 in the country and offered one other player ranked #45, at least according to Rivals.

Does anyone have any of the specifics as to why we never seemed to target Orton, Cousins, Favors or Sidney? I'm sure that there are decent reasons but it seems a bit odd that with the need for post players and the number of quality ones in the '09 class, we seem to have ignored the top 4-5. Maybe they don't fit the Duke mold or already seem to have strong leans toward other schools. I wonder why the only 5 star post players we seem to be interested in are Painter and Riley and even they seem to be only be getting moderate attention.

I know that we are actively recruiting Echenique and the staff seem to be very high on him but the other big men we have shown a lot of interest in have been more perimeter oriented. Plumlee is 6'10" but seems to be in line to replace Singler and not to addressing our inside weaknesses.

I'm not trying to discount the staffs efforts, I'm just curious as to why the above never seemed to make the wish list. Any insight would be appreciated.

Indoor66
03-05-2008, 10:26 AM
Does anyone have any of the specifics as to why we never seemed to target Orton, Cousins, Favors or Sidney? I'm sure that there are decent reasons but it seems a bit odd that with the need for post players and the number of quality ones in the '09 class, we seem to have ignored the top 4-5. Maybe they don't fit the Duke mold or already seem to have strong leans toward other schools. I wonder why the only 5 star post players we seem to be interested in are Painter and Riley and even they seem to be only be getting moderate attention.

I know that we are actively recruiting Echenique and the staff seem to be very high on him but the other big men we have shown a lot of interest in have been more perimeter oriented. Plumlee is 6'10" but seems to be in line to replace Singler and not to addressing our inside weaknesses.

I'm not trying to discount the staffs efforts, I'm just curious as to why the above never seemed to make the wish list. Any insight would be appreciated.

I am curious as to who and when any one of us has seen the coaching staff's "wish list." All of the info on the board is, with very little exception, pure speculation.

Jumbo
03-05-2008, 10:27 AM
Does anyone have any of the specifics as to why we never seemed to target Orton, Cousins, Favors or Sidney? I'm sure that there are decent reasons but it seems a bit odd that with the need for post players and the number of quality ones in the '09 class, we seem to have ignored the top 4-5. Maybe they don't fit the Duke mold or already seem to have strong leans toward other schools. I wonder why the only 5 star post players we seem to be interested in are Painter and Riley and even they seem to be only be getting moderate attention.

I know that we are actively recruiting Echenique and the staff seem to be very high on him but the other big men we have shown a lot of interest in have been more perimeter oriented. Plumlee is 6'10" but seems to be in line to replace Singler and not to addressing our inside weaknesses.

I'm not trying to discount the staffs efforts, I'm just curious as to why the above never seemed to make the wish list. Any insight would be appreciated.

First, of all, you can find a lot of those answers earlier in this therad. Secondly, there is more to recruiting than Rival/Scout rankings. Do you know anything about Renardo Sidney? Had you ever read this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/05/AR2006070501676.html) article? Do you know anything about his academic standing?

I'm not going to bother getting specific with each of the other players. But every year, there is only a certain percentage of the top recruits that Duke can even consider. A lot of the top kids just couldn't cut it academically at Duke. Then add the fact that K considers a lot of other qualities in recruiting, such as character, how a player fits, etc., and it's ridiculous to assume that Duke would chase every top recruit.

RepoMan
03-05-2008, 11:25 AM
it's ridiculous to assume that Duke would chase every top recruit.

Nor would we want it to do so. For most Duke fans, I suspect that a significant portion of their enjoyment of the team is the fact that, while achieveing great success, Duke recruits high caliber people who it hopes will be (and who usually are) great representatives of the University.

yancem
03-05-2008, 01:25 PM
I am curious as to who and when any one of us has seen the coaching staff's "wish list." All of the info on the board is, with very little exception, pure speculation.

I don't claim to have access to the coaches "wish list" but feel that it is safe to say, if Duke is contacting a recruit or actively evaluating a recruit than he isn't on their "wish list". And I haven't read anything to make me believe that any of Cousins, Favors, Sidney or Orton are currently being contacted or evaluated by the staff. I could be wrong but I think there would be some gossip if we were recruiting these guys.


First, of all, you can find a lot of those answers earlier in this therad. Secondly, there is more to recruiting than Rival/Scout rankings. Do you know anything about Renardo Sidney? Had you ever read this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/05/AR2006070501676.html) article? Do you know anything about his academic standing?

I'm not going to bother getting specific with each of the other players. But every year, there is only a certain percentage of the top recruits that Duke can even consider. A lot of the top kids just couldn't cut it academically at Duke. Then add the fact that K considers a lot of other qualities in recruiting, such as character, how a player fits, etc., and it's ridiculous to assume that Duke would chase every top recruit.

Actually, I did a "search this thread" for each of these guys and there is very little mention of any of them in this thread. There is a little, "this guys is great", "I hope we're recruiting that guy" but nothing of remote substance.

I know that there is more to recruiting than rivals/scout rankings. They certainly have their flaws but for the most part they're as good an indicator of a recruit's talent as anything else I have access to. I realize that recruiting is very subjective but for those of us that can't make it to all of the aau events to make our own evaluations we have to look to something for some guidance.

Do you know anything about Renardo Sidney? The article you link was interesting but I'm not sure what conclusions you think I should draw from it. The not playing high school basketball is odd but the article is from his freshman year. What is he doing now? Also, he says that he decided against a couple of schools that tried to get him to play for them because their players said they didn't have to do their own school work to get good grades. That seem like an admirable trait to me and might speak to his academic standing.

If you read my post you should have seen that I said that "maybe they don't fit the Duke mold" which I meant to cover academics, character, work ethic, etc. I don't have any information nor have I seen anyone mention any information about these kids other than they are great players. That is why I posted my question. I don't think that "Duke should chase every top recruit" but we usually target at least a couple of the top top players and from what I can tell, Boyton and McDonald are the only 5 star recruits that we are involves with and neither of them are post players. I was wondering if anyone had some information that could shed some light on this.

Bob Green
03-05-2008, 01:43 PM
... but we usually target at least a couple of the top top players and from what I can tell, Boyton and McDonald are the only 5 star recruits that we are involves with and neither of them are post players. I was wondering if anyone had some information that could shed some light on this.

Coach K has watched 5 Star recruit DeShawn Painter from Booker T. Washighton HS in Norfolk, VA. Painter is a PF and ranked by Scout.com as the # 8 player in the Class of 2009. However, Painter had a disappointing Junior season and I expect his ranking will drop when the Spring updates are published.

Greg Echenique is currently a 4 Star recruit but his stock is rising and his ranking will probably be higher on the new list.

gotham devil
03-05-2008, 03:03 PM
Plumlee is 6'10" but seems to be in line to replace Singler and not to addressing our inside weaknesses.

I'm not trying to discount the staffs efforts, I'm just curious as to why the above never seemed to make the wish list. Any insight would be appreciated.

It would be a major mistake to assume that Plumlee will be the impact player that Kyle Singler is.

Jumbo
03-05-2008, 03:52 PM
It would be a major mistake to assume that Plumlee will be the impact player that Kyle Singler is.

It would also be a major mistake to dismiss a kid's potential when he hasn't finished his junior year in high school. FWIW, the people who are still gnashing their teeth about Plumlee not being big enough are misguided. Duke has won big with plenty of skinny 6'10" kids, and obviously he's going to get stronger. But length combined with quickness down low is often as effective as brute strength, and he should have the former qualities.

SilkyJ
03-05-2008, 03:56 PM
But every year, there is only a certain percentage of the top recruits that Duke can even consider. A lot of the top kids just couldn't cut it academically at Duke. Then add the fact that K considers a lot of other qualities in recruiting, such as character, how a player fits, etc., and it's ridiculous to assume that Duke would chase every top recruit.

It seems to me that lots of people that have issues with our recruiting fail to grasp the above concept, and it is an EXTREMELY important one.

Coach K cares about academics and character A LOT, and so we start with a much shorter list of potential recruits than other schools do. We don't seriously consider half of the top 50-100 simply because they either don't make the cut academically or are too selfish/flashy/etc. Like OJ Mayo for example. We wouldn't have touched him with a 100 ft. pole. Just cause a guy is good, or even ridiculously good, doesn't mean you make our short list of recruits.

gotham devil
03-05-2008, 04:11 PM
It would also be a major mistake to dismiss a kid's potential when he hasn't finished his junior year in high school. FWIW, the people who are still gnashing their teeth about Plumlee not being big enough are misguided. Duke has won big with plenty of skinny 6'10" kids, and obviously he's going to get stronger. But length combined with quickness down low is often as effective as brute strength, and he should have the former qualities.

If you actually believe that it's too early to project whether Plumlee will have the same impact as Kyle Singler, that's your business.
You're the moderator.

yancem
03-05-2008, 04:34 PM
It would be a major mistake to assume that Plumlee will be the impact player that Kyle Singler is.

Oh, I agree. Singler was a top 5 recruit in one of the strongest classes in years. I just meant that Plumlee would be utilized in a similar way. He seems to be a tall player with guard like skills and won't be tied to the blocks, kind of like Singler.

BD80
03-05-2008, 04:47 PM
I haven't read anything to make me believe that any of Cousins, Favors, Sidney or Orton are currently being contacted or evaluated by the staff. I could be wrong but I think there would be some gossip if we were recruiting these guys. ...

I know that there is more to recruiting than rivals/scout rankings. They certainly have their flaws but for the most part they're as good an indicator of a recruit's talent as anything else I have access to. I realize that recruiting is very subjective but for those of us that can't make it to all of the aau events to make our own evaluations we have to look to something for some guidance. ...

... I don't think that "Duke should chase every top recruit" but we usually target at least a couple of the top top players and from what I can tell, Boyton and McDonald are the only 5 star recruits that we are involves with and neither of them are post players. I was wondering if anyone had some information that could shed some light on this.

There is an implied criticism of the Duke staff in your question,or, at least many here, including me, infer it as such. To defend the staff's decisions in culling targets, we would have to criticize some of the top recruits. Suffice it to say the staff knows what it is doing, and generally knows a lot more than the so called scouting "experts" (no offense Wat). There is a reason recruits rise in the rankings when signed by high profile programs - those coaches generally know a lot more and are better at evaluating talent or potential.

The Duke staff has limited resources, and directs those resources as will best benefit the program. They may eliminate a kid from consideration if he is rude or if he displays little enthusiasm for Duke or for school or for playing defense. Maybe they believe that targeting one big man and showing a commitment to that kid (Greg Echenique) is the best approach, given their options. Coach K is unequaled as an administrator. Guessing about his reasoning is silly and unproductive.

Leave or I shall taunt you again. Oops, no taunting allowed. I'll waive instead.

Jumbo
03-05-2008, 04:53 PM
If you actually believe that it's too early to project whether Plumlee will have the same impact as Kyle Singler, that's your business.
You're the moderator.

That's not what I said. And moderating doesn't make my opinion any more valuable than yours. Kyle Singler had much stronger credentials at this point in his high school career, and I'm generally not a fan of putting expectations on recruits at all. I'm just saying that there is no need to limit what a kid might do down the road (or overrate what a kid might do, for that matter).

yancem
03-05-2008, 04:58 PM
It seems to me that lots of people that have issues with our recruiting fail to grasp the above concept, and it is an EXTREMELY important one.

Coach K cares about academics and character A LOT, and so we start with a much shorter list of potential recruits than other schools do. We don't seriously consider half of the top 50-100 simply because they either don't make the cut academically or are too selfish/flashy/etc. Like OJ Mayo for example. We wouldn't have touched him with a 100 ft. pole. Just cause a guy is good, or even ridiculously good, doesn't mean you make our short list of recruits.

I'm not sure that the problem is people failing to grasp this concept (although I am sure that some do) its that when you read about recruits, usually their strengths (and not just on the court) are highlighted so it is sometimes hard to tell for what reason a kid isn't being recruited. Some recruiting experts discuss grades but sometimes only in the context of ncaa qualifications which doesn't help much since Duke requires higher standards. The too selfish/flashy stuff comes through in some reports but is very subjective and hard to pick through. Boynton is a good example. I have read articles that would make you think that he is a bit of a ball hog and jacks up too many shots. I've also read stories about how good of a student he is and about his solid character. So depending on which reports you stumble on, it can be difficult to figure out why Duke does or doesn't recruit certain guys.

There seems to be a fair number of people on this board that have good sources or inside information (although some only think that they do) about many Duke targets specifically and other recruits in general. This is why people like me seek out others' knowledge. I don't see any harm in asking about a certain recruit(s) nor do I think that asking means that you don't understand the necessary qualifications that K is looking for.

Some say just trust in the coaches, and that's fine, I trust them but that doesn't satisfy my curiosity. And what is the point of the message boards if we don't exchange information and feed each others interest in all things Duke?

yancem
03-05-2008, 05:17 PM
There is an implied criticism of the Duke staff in your question,or, at least many here, including me, infer it as such. To defend the staff's decisions in culling targets, we would have to criticize some of the top recruits. Suffice it to say the staff knows what it is doing, and generally knows a lot more than the so called scouting "experts" (no offense Wat). There is a reason recruits rise in the rankings when signed by high profile programs - those coaches generally know a lot more and are better at evaluating talent or potential.

The Duke staff has limited resources, and directs those resources as will best benefit the program. They may eliminate a kid from consideration if he is rude or if he displays little enthusiasm for Duke or for school or for playing defense. Maybe they believe that targeting one big man and showing a commitment to that kid (Greg Echenique) is the best approach, given their options. Coach K is unequaled as an administrator. Guessing about his reasoning is silly and unproductive.

Leave or I shall taunt you again. Oops, no taunting allowed. I'll waive instead.

In what way have I criticized the staff. All I am saying is, here are some really good basketball players, does anyone have any knowledge as to why Duke has decided to not recruit them? Someone mentioned that Cousins was probably going to go to UAB. Fine that's all I'm looking for. Recruit A grew up a fan of college x, recruit B is looking for a college closer to home, recruit C's style of play doesn't really match Duke's style. Maybe its grades or controlling parents or personality conflicts or a dozen other reasons. Maybe no one has an answer, that's fine too. Am I wrong for being curious?

You say to defend the staff's decision you have to criticize some of the top recruits. Why? I just listed 3 valid reasons why Duke wouldn't want to recruit a player that where in no way critical of the player (unless college x ends up being UNC). As I have stated in my other posts, I'm not complaining about who were recruiting nor do I not confidence in the staff and their abilities. I simply would like more information.

kramerbr
03-05-2008, 06:15 PM
It would be a major mistake to assume that Plumlee will be the impact player that Kyle Singler is.

I don't think anyone is assuming that Plumlee is going to be the same player as Singler. Unfortunately Kyle will not play at Duke forever and someone else needs to step in and play where Kyle did. Much like Elliot Williams is being brought in to "replace" Nelson.

bfree
03-23-2008, 12:24 PM
Instead of starting a new thread, I figured I'd bump this one instead (even though reading through it, it is pretty flawed and misses the point most of the time...).

Is there any news which can be shared? What is the schedule looking like for the pre-Beijing summer? Is a solid backup plan to Greg E developing? Who could still emerge as a target? Thanks in advance!

Go Duke!

(I had a long discussion about expectations over a few beers with some fellow Duke alums last night, it helped immensely)

Channing
03-23-2008, 01:05 PM
I have read a lot of harping (rightly so) about Duke not having a good big man and not really having a stud recruit in the wings.

The thing to remember is that recruiting is more than us just wanting a player -that player has to want us too. And if I were a big man recruit I would look at Duke and say "hmm . . . my coach will be Wojo."

I know this has been hit on before on this board, but I still can't figure out why Wojo is our big man coach. The party line was that he is excellent at teaching the entry pass or something like that. My response to that is two fold: (1) that is a skill for a guard, not a big man, and (2) did anyone see these great entry passes?

Wojo appears to be woefully underqualified to teach Zoubek how to properly execute a drop step or a baby hook. Notice that I say "appears to be" - because when recruiting big men that is all that matters. What the recruit thinks his coaches will be able to teach him.

There have been three stellar big men at Duke since Wojo has been on staff: Brand, Boozer, and Williams. Looking at those three - I dont think Brand or Boozer necessarily made any huge strides in college. Brand was already a phenomenal player coming into Duke. He was hurt at Duke, and really didnt even have enough time to develop. Boozer improved in college, but he has improved so much more since he got to the pros that it seems like his full potential wasnt even remotely realized at Duke. As for Shelden - I will give Wojo credit there. I think Shel became much better on offense and defense (mainly because he learnt how to not foul out) in his time at Duke.

Anyway, thats my .02. If I were 6'10 and looking to make the NBA as a 4 or a 5 I would want to go to place where I felt I was getting the best coaching and training for my position -and that is not Duke.

Can't we bring in G-man for the summer or something to work with these guys?

The1Bluedevil
03-23-2008, 02:01 PM
I know recruiting rankings have become even more meaningless then before, but looking at all the Duke players who haven't lived up to their high school hype I can see why Duke hasn't made the 2nd weekend in two years.

According to RSCI:

Nelson 18th- Great senior year and injury plagued for two years but in my opinion he simply was over ranked.

Paulus 13th - I think most people on this board believe this ranking is extremely high.

Pocius 53- Unfortunate career due to injuries but does anyone think in the time he has played he was a huge impact?

Thomas 20th- Very nice role guy but 20th ranked players should never be a role player. Obviously he is too small to play in the paint but I can't see him playing the 3 at an effective level either.

Z 25th- Yes he has been hurt and yes he hasn't played much but I don't see significant improvement to warrant that ranking.

Henderson 10th- Of course the talent is their, he shows flashes of brilliance and toughing out the wrist injury to win for over a month to make an impact shows why I love the guy. However he is an average ball handler at best and disappears in games quite often. Obviously next year this is his team so this ranking will be answered next year. (Hope it is)

Jon 28th- This one is clear cut. What he does for this team is worth the ranking. Of course he lacks premier athleticism but does so much for the team.

Singler 5th- Are their players below him that are better? Yes. But he has proven he is worth the hype and should fight for first team all league next year. (I hope he plays the 3 next years)

King 24th- It maybe to early to call him a bust, but he is a defensive liability and has to play the 4 to sniff the floor. I hope he turns into a player but don't see the ranking even close to being accurate.

Smith 19th- Like Henderson showed flashes of brilliance then other times was a turnover machine. My opinion is that he will turn into a player that justifies this ranking. Confidence is a biggie with him.

I hate to use rankings for anything but from my opinion Singler and Jon are the only guys I can honestly say has/will live to the billing as of now. Henderson and Smith should but you never know.

Z, LT, and King I don't believe ever will.

Greg is a solid player but has already proven he was over hyped.

I didn't even mention McRoberts, Boykin and Boateng.

I'm not trying to hammer anyone of these guys for their careers. I'm just a huge Duke fan like you trying to find answers for the recent struggles. When I scroll down these rankings and see all the misses it makes it difficult to win at the level all fans want.

Saratoga2
03-23-2008, 02:47 PM
I know recruiting rankings have become even more meaningless then before, but looking at all the Duke players who haven't lived up to their high school hype I can see why Duke hasn't made the 2nd weekend in two years

Henderson 10th- Of course the talent is their, he shows flashes of brilliance and toughing out the wrist injury to win for over a month to make an impact shows why I love the guy. However he is an average ball handler at best and disappears in games quite often. Obviously next year this is his team so this ranking will be answered next year. (Hope it is)

Jon 28th- This one is clear cut. What he does for this team is worth the ranking. Of course he lacks premier athleticism but does so much for the team.

Singler 5th- Are their players below him that are better? Yes. But he has proven he is worth the hype and should fight for first team all league next year. (I hope he plays the 3 next years)

Smith 19th- Like Henderson showed flashes of brilliance then other times was a turnover machine. My opinion is that he will turn into a player that justifies this ranking. Confidence is a biggie with him.


According to RSCI:
I'm not trying to hammer anyone of these guys for their careers. I'm just a huge Duke fan like you trying to find answers for the recent struggles. When I scroll down these rankings and see all the misses it makes it difficult to win at the level all fans want.

You have done some homework on these and other players who I deleted because being mainly interested in the four above. All of these guys may wind up being pros and two are sophomores while two are freshmen. Elliot Williams may also have the pro potential and that waits to be seen. We have some really outstanding players and some role players. It wouldn't take much more than one or two front court players to turn this team into a final four team. If that doesn't happen, then that will be okay too.

johnb
03-23-2008, 03:04 PM
I still can't figure out why Wojo is our big man coach... Wojo appears to be woefully underqualified to teach Zoubek how to properly execute a drop step or a baby hook. Notice that I say "appears to be" - because when recruiting big men that is all that matters. What the recruit thinks his coaches will be able to teach him.

By "appears," do you mean that the recruits are taller than Wojo? Do you really think that the height of the coaching staff is the determining factor in regards to whether recruits will choose Duke? One factor might be the success of previous, similar players. Who might that be?

[
There have been three stellar big men at Duke since Wojo has been on staff: Brand, Boozer, and Williams.

Wow, guys should be flocking to us


Looking at those three - I dont think Brand or Boozer necessarily made any huge strides in college

Hmmm. That seems odd that guys move from being high school players competing against 16 year olds in upstate NY and Alaska to a waystation in which they didn't develop any skills to being NBA All Stars, but that's just me.


Brand was already a phenomenal player coming into Duke. He was hurt at Duke, and really didnt even have enough time to develop.

I'm not sure what this means. Are you saying that his foot injury was the reason Brand was such a bust at Duke? Or that he was dominating despite the foot injury and the poor quality of coaching?


Boozer improved in college, but he has improved so much more since he got to the pros that it seems like his full potential wasnt even remotely realized at Duke.

In terrms of learning the basics, where do you think players get the most individual attention?


As for Shelden - I will give Wojo credit there. I think Shel became much better on offense and defense

Nice to see that you can be upbeat.


(mainly because he learnt how to not foul out) in his time at Duke.

Oh, I guess the snarkiness needs to sneak in between parens


Anyway, thats my .02. If I were 6'10 and looking to make the NBA as a 4 or a 5 I would want to go to place where I felt I was getting the best coaching and training for my position

An admittedly difficult determination. Leaving aside all the social/educational/team variables, I might look to see which school had produced the most NBA starters at my position. I think that's Duke


-and that is not Duke.

Oops. I guess I was wrong.


Can't we bring in G-man for the summer or something to work with these guys?

or something? Maybe a really tall blow up doll.

Coaches are paid professionals, so Wojo should suck up criticism, even on a fan's site. As long as guys don't go after the players when they get sad after a game. But surely no one would do that.


I know recruiting rankings have become even more meaningless then before, but looking at all the Duke players who haven't lived up to their high school hype I can see why Duke hasn't made the 2nd weekend in two years.

Oh oh


According to RSCI:

Nelson 18th- Great senior year and injury plagued for two years but in my opinion he simply was over ranked.

Yeah, he was first team all ACC, captain of a top 10 team, conference defensive player of the year, and had lots of injuries about which he didn't whine, but did you look at the puny little sticks that he calls arms? if only he had tried...



Paulus 13th - I think most people on this board believe this ranking is extremely high.
It is high. Given his injury last year, his leadership and toughness, his outside shot, and his solid performance this year, please name the point guards that you would rather have.


Pocius 53- Unfortunate career due to injuries but does anyone think in the time he has played he was a huge impact?

If we are only going by these rankings, #53 should not get off the bench, even if he were healthy.


Thomas 20th- Very nice role guy but 20th ranked players should never be a role player. Obviously he is too small to play in the paint but I can't see him playing the 3 at an effective level either.

I may be confused, but there was a starter whose jersey had a "THOMAS" on it. Same guy? I think so, and I also seem to recall that he sucked it up and didn't complain despite playing out of position.


Z 25th- Yes he has been hurt and yes he hasn't played much but I don't see significant improvement to warrant that ranking.
Look closer, big guy.


Henderson 10th- Of course the talent is their (sic), he shows flashes of brilliance and toughing out the wrist injury to win for over a month to make an impact shows why I love the guy. However he is an average ball handler at best and disappears in games quite often. Obviously next year this is his team so this ranking will be answered next year. (Hope it is)

I'm a little confused, you love him or you don't love him?



Jon 28th- This one is clear cut. What he does for this team is worth the ranking. Of course he lacks premier athleticism but does so much for the team.

Singler 5th- Are their players below him that are better? Yes. But he has proven he is worth the hype and should fight for first team all league next year. (I hope he plays the 3 next years)

Finally softening a bit?



King 24th- It maybe to early to call him a bust, but he is a defensive liability and has to play the 4 to sniff the floor. I hope he turns into a player but don't see the ranking even close to being accurate.

Yeah, well he is a freshman, so maybe we shouldn't feed him to the hounds just yet.


Smith 19th- Like Henderson showed flashes of brilliance then other times was a turnover machine. My opinion is that he will turn into a player that justifies this ranking. Confidence is a biggie with him.

"A turnover machine?" At least he can gain confidence knowing that his fans have his back.


I hate to use rankings for anything but from my opinion Singler and Jon are the only guys I can honestly say has/will live to the billing as of now. Henderson and Smith should but you never know.

Z, LT, and King I don't believe ever will.

Greg is a solid player but has already proven he was over hyped.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and that includes people who hate to use rankings and whose primary response to disappointment is disparagement.


I didn't even mention McRoberts, Boykin and Boateng.
That's reasonable, since they are not actually on the team.


I'm not trying to hammer anyone of these guys for their careers.

Tough love?


I'm just a huge Duke fan like you trying to find answers for the recent struggles.

Depending on your religious background, you could try celebrating today. I hear it's a holiday that celebrates an event that involves times of similar struggle.


When I scroll down these rankings and see all the misses it makes it difficult to win at the level all fans want.

I hope the guys can live up to your standards. Maybe next year.

NashvilleDevil
03-24-2008, 10:24 AM
Are Eliot Williams and Olek Cyzk the only players in Duke's incoming class? I have done the search and these are the only 2 guys that I see as commits. Also in 2009 is it just Plumlee who is a commit right now? I take it that Boynton has not committed to a school yet.

I remember when DBR used to have all the players in the class on the recruiting page. Is there an easier way to find out who Duke is targeting and who is committed?