2009 Recruiting

[Kfanarmy]

anyone have any insight into who Duke is seeking, not commits but prospects...any new news for the HS classes of 08 or 09?

[RelativeWays]

I haven't heard anything past Mason Plumlee, though I think we have two other prospects that have visited but not commited.

[NYC Duke Fan]

I haven't heard anything past Mason Plumlee, though I think we have two other prospects that have visited but not commited.

There was a time not so long ago when a recruit came to Duke, loved it on impact and then committed very quickly thereafter.....Aside from Plumlee it hasn't happened.

[johnb]

Williams and Cyzk both signed early, but I guess that was sort-of a while back.

[gofurman]

anyone have any insight into who Duke is seeking, not commits but prospects...any new news for the HS classes of 08 or 09?

08 is Elliot Williams 6'4" and Cyck 6'7"?
09 Plumlee

[vango]

I have read a lot of harping (rightly so) about Duke not having a good big man and not really having a stud recruit in the wings.

The thing to remember is that recruiting is more than us just wanting a player -that player has to want us too. And if I were a big man recruit I would look at Duke and say "hmm . . . my coach will be Wojo."

I know this has been hit on before on this board, but I still can't figure out why Wojo is our big man coach. The party line was that he is excellent at teaching the entry pass or something like that. My response to that is two fold: (1) that is a skill for a guard, not a big man, and (2) did anyone see these great entry passes?

Wojo appears to be woefully underqualified to teach Zoubek how to properly execute a drop step or a baby hook. Notice that I say "appears to be" - because when recruiting big men that is all that matters. What the recruit thinks his coaches will be able to teach him.

There have been three stellar big men at Duke since Wojo has been on staff: Brand, Boozer, and Williams. Looking at those three - I dont think Brand or Boozer necessarily made any huge strides in college. Brand was already a phenomenal player coming into Duke. He was hurt at Duke, and really didnt even have enough time to develop. Boozer improved in college, but he has improved so much more since he got to the pros that it seems like his full potential wasnt even remotely realized at Duke. As for Shelden - I will give Wojo credit there. I think Shel became much better on offense and defense (mainly because he learnt how to not foul out) in his time at Duke.

Anyway, thats my .02. If I were 6'10 and looking to make the NBA as a 4 or a 5 I would want to go to place where I felt I was getting the best coaching and training for my position -and that is not Duke.

Can't we bring in G-man for the summer or something to work with these guys?

Dang. My UNC fan office neighbor believes this to be the case. I agree with him to an extent. If I'm an 18 year old C or PF with NBA aspirations - knowing (rightly or wrongly) about the "Duke cannot develop big men or Duke players fail in the NBA" stigma - I have to be wondering what can I learn at Duke to not be that. Who is my position coach? Now, Coach K is a guard who has had some nice big men in his tenure. Plenty of other big me playing for former guards who are the head coaches. I do not know the expert levels of the asst. coaches at Georgetown (big men academy), UNC (some nice big men over the years), UCLA (etc.) but I would have to guess there is a big man coach there whom a kid can look at and think - I can learn from this person. I don't know - love Wojo and know nothing about his ability to teach this position but just thinking as a kid who has that aspiration and has to - in effect - pick a teacher I wonder how much confidence a kid gets from him (Wojo).

[kramerbr]

Dang. My UNC fan office neighbor believes this to be the case. I agree with him to an extent. If I'm an 18 year old C or PF with NBA aspirations - knowing (rightly or wrongly) about the "Duke cannot develop big men or Duke players fail in the NBA" stigma - I have to be wondering what can I learn at Duke to not be that. Who is my position coach? Now, Coach K is a guard who has had some nice big men in his tenure. Plenty of other big me playing for former guards who are the head coaches. I do not know the expert levels of the asst. coaches at Georgetown (big men academy), UNC (some nice big men over the years), UCLA (etc.) but I would have to guess there is a big man coach there whom a kid can look at and think - I can learn from this person. I don't know - love Wojo and know nothing about his ability to teach this position but just thinking as a kid who has that aspiration and has to - in effect - pick a teacher I wonder how much confidence a kid gets from him (Wojo).

These are some ridiculous assumptions. First of all, go check out UNC's coaching staff and see who they have for a "big man" coach. Second of all what are the qualifications to be a big man coach....was a post player in college, 6'8" or taller?

Wojo is not the only one that works with the post players and just because he was a guard does not mean he can't coach big men or post players don't want to come because Wojo is the "big man" coach.

If low-post player prospects don't come to Duke its because they didn't feel a connection with the coaching stafff (not one assistant coach), didn't feel a connection with players, not a fan of the campus, wanted a certain number of "touches" or just flat out liked another school better.

Lets move on from blaming Wojo for all of this.

As I stated in another thread last night "maybe the boards should of been shut down for longer".

[Duvall]

Dang. My UNC fan office neighbor believes this to be the case. I agree with him to an extent.

That's pretty rich. Roy's big men haven't exactly been tearing up the league - has Williams coached an NBA All-Star post player since Brad Daugherty?

[vango]

Not so much an assumption as I'm wondering what kids think. It's out there. Do they think it - I don't know. Is it a perception? I think it could be. Is it correct? Don't know that either - I don't go to the Duke practices or listen to the recruiting pitches. I know nothing about Wojo's ability to coach. I'm just wondering out loud if kids think that way. As for the schools I have mentioned - they have a history.

[Rudy]

anyone have any insight into who Duke is seeking, not commits but prospects...any new news for the HS classes of 08 or 09?

I look at scout.com
The 08 players of note have all announced. Few of the 09 players have. These ratings are themselves overrated for such young players, but it is a bit ominous that of the top 11 five star players in the PF and C positions rated by scout.com, only one showed interest in Duke (Deshawn Painter) and when you look at the details, he apparently has said he no longer has interest in Duke. The #7 ranked center Greg Echenique at 6-8 240 pounds (still a h.s. junior remember) is a four star player showing medium interest in Duke.

Plumlee is listed as a four star player but not in the top 10 for PF's.

[Duvall]

Not so much an assumption as I'm wondering what kids think. It's out there. Do they think it - I don't know. Is it a perception? I think it could be. Is it correct? Don't know that either - I don't go to the Duke practices or listen to the recruiting pitches. I know nothing about Wojo's ability to coach. I'm just wondering out loud if kids think that way. As for the schools I have mentioned - they have a history.

I have no idea how the minds of teenaged recruits work. But it doesn't make sense to give more credit to coaches for players they never coached because their schools have a history than Wojo gets for players that he has coached.

[Kfanarmy]

Thanks all for the replies. I was curious whether/if there was anything in the rumormill but it appears what is out in the public domain is accurate, or at least not terribly inaccurate.

[vango]

I have no idea how the minds of teenaged recruits work. But it doesn't make sense to give more credit to coaches for players they never coached because their schools have a history than Wojo gets for players that he has coached.

I'll agree with that. Not fair, unfounded, and misguided. I will say that I think programs get reputations for things. We all know those associated with Duke (none of which I agree with and have debated - I think successfully - over the past decade). I'm more of a football guy and in my day playing and with talking with players in the past 15 years or so they knew/know which schools were "linebacker U" (PSU most notably), "OL U" (Pitt back in the day and more USC now), etc. I agree with the earlier poster who mentioned the various reasons recruits do not come - most of those reasons would exceed this theory I would think. I wonder if any kids actually think this however. Not that it is true - but is it considered. I suppose none of us know but it is a theory. Conversely, looking at the new coach for Duke football - would a QB give Duke a look that he normally would not have b/c that coach is reputed to be a great QB coach and that the programs he has been tied to have produced a Manning and others.

[sagegrouse]

There have been three stellar big men at Duke since Wojo has been on staff: Brand, Boozer, and Williams. Looking at those three - I dont think Brand or Boozer necessarily made any huge strides in college. Brand was already a phenomenal player coming into Duke. He was hurt at Duke, and really didnt even have enough time to develop. Boozer improved in college, but he has improved so much more since he got to the pros that it seems like his full potential wasnt even remotely realized at Duke. As for Shelden - I will give Wojo credit there. I think Shel became much better on offense and defense (mainly because he learnt how to not foul out) in his time at Duke.



First, let me say that the best Duke players in the NBA -- and the only candidates for the Olympic team -- are Boozer and Brand. These are men coached by the Duke staff. (I can't remember when Wojo became the big man coach, inasmuch as he graduated only in 1998, when Brand was already on the team). How many other coaches have two men in similar positions?

But lets address how Brand and Boozer developed at Duke vs. in the NBA.

Elton came from a public high school in the Hudson River Valley, not a premier private or prep school. By his soph. year he was the best player in college and was unstoppable (until UConn triple-teamed him in St. Pete). His footwork, which developed at Duke, was every bit as good as his strength. Elton, of course, is a better person than b-ball player (I have only met him once). At Duke the gap was narrowed, however. Elton, of course, was an immediate star in the NBA (co-rookie of the year, IIRC). Are you saying that Elton would have been a candidate for ROY if he had jumped from HS to the NBA?

Boozer's second round draft status was a mystery to me. I thought he was a dominant player in college. (Were you there when he had 20 rebounds against Wake?) I guess the scouts thought he was not skilled enough to play SF and not big and strong enough to play PF. In the NBA -- pretty much from day one -- he demonstrated his strength and skill. He started the majority of his games his rookie year and at 25 min/game averaged 10 pts and 8 RBs. I mean, a second round pick becoming an NBA starter as a rookie! How many times has that happened? Moreover, while his per game numbers improved in his second year, they were about the same as the "per minute" numbers his rookie year. At Duke, I thought he was pretty shaky as a freshman and a formidable force by his third year. I think we have to give Wojo and K a lot of credit. (And, of course, one of his great developments at Duke was finding a wife and Fuqua grad to get him that great contract with the Jazz.)

Shelden was a fouling machine as a freshman and grew more effective every year. Question: Do Wojo and K get extra credit for a big man who was better in college than in the NBA?

Anyway, I totally disagree with your opinions on the big-man coaching at Duke. (Wasn't the diminutive coach Gut the big man coach under El Deano?)

sagegrouse
'Grousier than usual today'

[matrix1686]

With the loss of Echenique, who does Duke turn to next? I know people have mentioned DeShawn Painter and while he seems like a good fit on defense he only weighs 200 lbs. and doesn't seem like he would fit the need for a low post scorer.

Does anybody know who else Duke might target? What about Keith Gallon or Daniel Orton? I think Orton would be really hard to get but he seems aggressive and tough. Gallon plays at Oak Hill (not too far away), and is 290 so obviously he'd be a capable low-post banger. He also seems pretty agile, a lot like Big Baby Davis who put us out a couple of years ago.

Also DaShonte Riley has been mentioned and while he's big I get the feeling he could be another Boateng or Sanders. Especially since it's rumored he doesn't have a great work ethic.

Finally, is John Riek considering college at all and if so would Duke be willing to offer him? While raw offensively, Riek could change the defense entirely by being the shot blocker we are currently missing. In any case I'd like to know everybody's thoughts.

[BlueintheFace]

So the next class is set- Czyz and Williams (another williams in the rafters would be pretty sweet haha)

The real intrigue is with 2009- 4 Scholarships have been offered I believe (not sure if John Riek's offer was ever there/ still is there)

1) Mason Plumlee- 6'11, great rebounder, mobile face up big man- VERBALLY COMMITTED

2) Greg Echenique- COMMITTED TO RUTGERS

3) Kenny Boynton- 6'2" Combo Guard, Big Time Scorer, Big time competitor, cut throat top tier guard (Top 15 talent). Could be the gem of the class if we get him. Think Jay-Will. Also recruited by UConnvicts, Florida, Texas, Louisville...

4) Leslie McDonald- 6'4" SG, Scoring Wing recruited by literally every top 10 program in America. Needs to work a bit on his handles, but is a real leader and winner. My guess is that K has made this kid his #1 priority.

Now that Greg Echenique has decided to stay home for Rutgers, who do we focus on? there don't seem to be many big men on our radar. Thoughts? Maybe Terrell Vinson who came to the Carolina game and has offers from Georgetown, Memphis, and Maryland?

[dukie8]

i'm not sure if this has been covered yet, but is there any chance that k could go the transfer route? obviously, a transfer would not help in 2009 but, after sitting out a year, we would have an experienced low post player (at least 1 year of college ball plus a year of duke practices versus a freshman right out of high school). it seemed to have worked well with mccleod and d jones.

[bfree]

Would any of the mods object to starting a new, "moving forward" thread? This one is kinda unruly.

[CDu]

First, let me say that the best Duke players in the NBA -- and the only candidates for the Olympic team -- are Boozer and Brand. These are men coached by the Duke staff. (I can't remember when Wojo became the big man coach, inasmuch as he graduated only in 1998, when Brand was already on the team). How many other coaches have two men in similar positions?

But lets address how Brand and Boozer developed at Duke vs. in the NBA.

Elton came from a public high school in the Hudson River Valley, not a premier private or prep school. By his soph. year he was the best player in college and was unstoppable (until UConn triple-teamed him in St. Pete). His footwork, which developed at Duke, was every bit as good as his strength. Elton, of course, is a better person than b-ball player (I have only met him once). At Duke the gap was narrowed, however. Elton, of course, was an immediate star in the NBA (co-rookie of the year, IIRC). Are you saying that Elton would have been a candidate for ROY if he had jumped from HS to the NBA?

Boozer's second round draft status was a mystery to me. I thought he was a dominant player in college. (Were you there when he had 20 rebounds against Wake?) I guess the scouts thought he was not skilled enough to play SF and not big and strong enough to play PF. In the NBA -- pretty much from day one -- he demonstrated his strength and skill. He started the majority of his games his rookie year and at 25 min/game averaged 10 pts and 8 RBs. I mean, a second round pick becoming an NBA starter as a rookie! How many times has that happened? Moreover, while his per game numbers improved in his second year, they were about the same as the "per minute" numbers his rookie year. At Duke, I thought he was pretty shaky as a freshman and a formidable force by his third year. I think we have to give Wojo and K a lot of credit. (And, of course, one of his great developments at Duke was finding a wife and Fuqua grad to get him that great contract with the Jazz.)

Shelden was a fouling machine as a freshman and grew more effective every year. Question: Do Wojo and K get extra credit for a big man who was better in college than in the NBA?

Anyway, I totally disagree with your opinions on the big-man coaching at Duke. (Wasn't the diminutive coach Gut the big man coach under El Deano?)

sagegrouse
'Grousier than usual today'

Wojo joined the staff in 1999, so he was not a member of the coaching staff at any point that Brand was there. With regard to Brand's development at Duke, I think he was NBA-ready when he came to school. I think the same development would have happened in the NBA. He'd have been an impact player immediately, though. He was that good.

Boozer might also have been NBA-ready out of high school. He had an NBA body and an NBA skillset. Again, I think he'd have taken a bit of time to develop in the NBA, but he would have been productive almost immediately.

Shelden Williams and Casey Sanders are, in my opinion, the two shining examples of big men who were developed in the Duke system in the 2000s. Sanders went from an uncoordinated big man completely unable to stay on two feet with even the slightest contact as a freshmen to a fully functional, serviceable big man by his senior year. Williams went from a guy with zero offensive game as a freshman into one of the best all-around big men in the country as a senior.

[Huh?]

I've heard Duke has a love affair with Boyton, he IS our #1. They are pitching him as the next J-Will. Other than that we are looking at Terrell Vinson (sp?), McDonald, and Jon hood.
Anyone heard any different?

[dukefan47]

I really think we should go after this guy if we don't get McDonald or offer him now with Ech going to rutgers. he said he enjoyed his visit to the duke unc game also
He is an athletic 3/4 swingman and is rated as a 5 star..
comments?

[chrisheery]

I really think we should go after this guy if we don't get McDonald or offer him now with Ech going to rutgers. he said he enjoyed his visit to the duke unc game also
He is an athletic 3/4 swingman and is rated as a 5 star..
comments?

he came to the game. we are clearly recruiting him. do you mean we should offer him a scholarship now? if so, i can't comment, never seen him play. all i know is, if he is 6'7 or taller, can jump and has some muscle at all, we could use him.

[pless55]

I think Duke could definitely use Vinson if we offer him we could really help shore our rebounding issues. With Plumlee can give us solid minutes and rebound good with Thomas I think we could be a final four contender if everybody returns. Side note does anyone think that Czyk could play center next year. He has a great vertical leap and can rebound?

[dkbaseball]

does anyone think that Czyk could play center next year. He has a great vertical leap and can rebound?

Yes, he does, according to one of his teammates. And I could see it pretty easily. My evaluation is in a thread titled Scouting report on Czyz.

[kydevil]

I really think we should go after this guy if we don't get McDonald or offer him now with Ech going to rutgers. he said he enjoyed his visit to the duke unc game also
He is an athletic 3/4 swingman and is rated as a 5 star..
comments?

Have you seen Vinson play? If so, enlighten us on his game a little, if you would please.

[NCSU&UNCgrad]

Does anyone know anything about Stephan Van Treese or Colin Borchert?

Thanks

[JasonEvans]

Does anyone know anything about Stephan Van Treese or Colin Borchert?


They are both big men in the class of 2009 and I have not heard of either of them considering Duke. Aside from that, I know little about them. Van Tresse is an Indiana kid who is looking at IU, Ohio State, Kansas, Louisville, Purdue, and a few others. Borcheryt is big on USC and is also looking at Cal, UNLV, Nebraska, and perhaps Kentucky.

Do you have any reason to think either of them are Duke targets?

--Jason "hey, random big man is unsigned, are we going after him?" Evans

[kydevil]

--Jason "hey, random big man is unsigned, are we going after him?" Evans

Im right behind you on that Jason. It's getting old everytime I read on a thread about a new post player who is unsigned and they look good on their rivals/scout page.

[duke.kahanamoku]

I watched the Xavier game. It was the first game I watched this year that did not feature Duke. It got me thinking about post skills.

It was weird watching the big guys on xavier. They would stand near the basket and even if they didn't have the ball they would start jumping up and down and grabbing it and a lot of times they even got it.

Sometimes they would have the ball and they would gradually move a little bit closer to the basket until they thought they could reach it and then they would shoot. A lot of times it went in. It was like they knew that they could make the shot easily if they were near the hoop- I thought that was a good strategy. It seemed like it was hard for the defense to stop the big guys from shooting when they were really close to the basket.

I think if I were a coach I would get one of those big guys and tell him to get near the basket and shoot whenever possible.

My friend says I should do a "big man" camp this summer. I like smores so I might do it. But I would invite girls too and maybe even first graders.

Duke
Age 7 1/2

[Duke79UNLV77]

I think most people assume that, sitting here in March of 08, we won't just give up already on power players from the class of 09. It's natural for people to be curious as to whether anyone has information on potential recruits. This is, after all, an information board. This does not mean that people don't trust the coaching staff or want Duke to forget about non-basketball criteria.

As context, some posters suggested that missing on Monroe was not a big deal because we had lots of options in 09, but that missing on those options would be a big deal. For example, this is from Jumbo at the time:

"1) The Class of 2008 is historically bad. Monroe is a very good player, but it's not like Duke just lost the next Kevin Durant. Recruiting rankings don't have the benefit of context -- Monroe might not have cracked the top-10 in several other classes.

3) Duke can go hard after bigs in the talent-rich Class of 2009. Long-term, that might be a blessing.

9) Finally, as Jim Sumner said, the Class of 2009 is key. It's loaded. Duke is after a lot of prospects (as opposed to the Class of 2008, which presented very few viable options). If Duke lands a couple of key guys in the 2009 class, we shouldn't worry, and we should just hope that the guys we were sweating as recruits just two years ago pan out as veterans. If Duke somehow gets shut out in the Class of 2009, given the number of players we're chasing and the opportunities available to them, then I will join some of you in worrying about the overall state of Duke's recruiting. But right now, the evidence just isn't there to reach any grand conclusions."

[watzone]

In short, Duke will evaluate some players in the coming month. When they find what they are looking for and offer will be made. John Reik? Maybe we should pin that he is not an option at the top of the board.

[OZ]

In short, Duke will evaluate some players in the coming month. When they find what they are looking for and offer will be made. John Reik? Maybe we should pin that he is not an option at the top of the board.



When one establishes the yardstick by which to "evaluate" players and when we raise questions about Duke's inside size, we might keep in mind that Davidson has no McDonald AA's and no one taller than 6'8". They have no "wide bodies" nor great "leapers." What they do have other than Curry is a smart "four year" experienced point guard and team cohesiveness.
We might do well by taking a chance on some kids who are just below the radar but end up giving four years of experience.

[chrisheery]

When one establishes the yardstick by which to "evaluate" players and when we raise questions about Duke's inside size, we might keep in mind that Davidson has no McDonald AA's and no one taller than 6'8". They have no "wide bodies" nor great "leapers." What they do have other than Curry is a smart "four year" experienced point guard and team cohesiveness.
We might do well by taking a chance on some kids who are just below the radar but end up giving four years of experience.

that would be completely true. however, you are forgetting one thing. while everyone loves this story of davidson and is happy for them, no one thinks they will actually win the national championship.

also, lets not forget that we beat davidson and the only reason they are playing now and we are not is that they are shooting the ball well still and we were not. we also beat wisconsin by more than 20 when we were playing well. all i am saying is that davidson is not the model after which duke should follow.

[nyr484]

When one establishes the yardstick by which to "evaluate" players and when we raise questions about Duke's inside size, we might keep in mind that Davidson has no McDonald AA's and no one taller than 6'8". They have no "wide bodies" nor great "leapers." What they do have other than Curry is a smart "four year" experienced point guard and team cohesiveness.
We might do well by taking a chance on some kids who are just below the radar but end up giving four years of experience.

I think that's been the strategy. IMO, Coach K has been going after 4 year players since the Livingston/Deng period. This is especially true for big men, who are more likely to make the jump to the Association early. Duke has put emphasis recently on trying to find big men who might stay more than one year. I think the idea has been to mix in 4-year players with 1 super-talent who might just stay 1 year. (i.e. McBobs - but that didn't work out.)

Also, you don't have to go "below the radar" to find 4-year players. Paulus, Scheyer, McClure, King, Smith, Zoubek, Thomas, Pocius --> All 4-year players. Even Singler and Henderson have a chance to stay 4 years.

[Saratoga2]

When one establishes the yardstick by which to "evaluate" players and when we raise questions about Duke's inside size, we might keep in mind that Davidson has no McDonald AA's and no one taller than 6'8". They have no "wide bodies" nor great "leapers." What they do have other than Curry is a smart "four year" experienced point guard and team cohesiveness.
We might do well by taking a chance on some kids who are just below the radar but end up giving four years of experience.

Kansas has an abundance of athletic players with good shooters and lots of size inside. Lots of depth. If they have a weakness it is with the point guard position and they will turn the ball over.

UNC we know have a lot of athleticism, a dominant big man with lots of back up inside, a very good point guard and good shooters.

UCLA has an excellent big man. After watching him, I was very impressed with how he lets the game come to him, nothing rushed. They have back up big men and have solid athletic guards. Collison is not as good as some people paint him to be but is definitely one of the better ones.

Memphis is also loaded with good sized athletic guards, including a very proficient if young point guard. They have an athletic and strong front court.

Shouldn't Duke look to build a team that is capable in all areas, as these teams have become through recruiting and experience?

Duke seems to be getting the good sized athletic guards that can compete with anyone, with Scheyer, Henderson, Smith, Williams and Pocius. We have a good tough kid in Paulus who is an assest but can't be called good sized, nor particularly athletic, but he can shoot.

Coach K and all of us know that we are deficient in the front court, if we are to play at the top level. Singler is definitely very high quality and is already and excellent 4. The problem is that neither McClure, King, Zoubek or Thomas are very high caliber front court players. Can they match up with the better teams? These guys will improve by next year, but it may not be sufficient to match the very best front courts. I doubt if there is anyone left in 2008 or 2009 that we can get to help us. I hope some magic can be pulled out of the hat, since if we are to be a final four team, we will need more help in the front court.

[DavidBenAkiva]

Now that Echenique has committed to Rutgers, who else are we looking at?

I don't think there is anyone in '08
We have a committment from Mason Plumlee for '09 and have offered scholarships to guards Kenny Boynton and Leslie McDonald. Have we offered to any of the following:
Terrell Vinson
Steven Van Tresse
DeShonte Riley
DeShawn Painter

I've heard about a few kids from 2010:
Brandon Knight (PG)
Nate Lubick (F/C)

Have I missed anyone?

Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana

[AtlDuke72]

I know this has been hit on before on this board, but I still can't figure out why Wojo is our big man coach.

Reading this post and many others has convinced me that Coach K should not only be in the Hall of Fame, they should name it for him based on this season's record. When the year started it was obvious the Devils were undersized and very young. Despite that they went 28-6 and beat UNC in Chapel Hill . What we know now, which I learned from reading the posts on DBR, was that Duke also:
1) Had no quickness
2) Had no slashers
3) Could not shoot under pressure
4) Had no fun and played with no heart

Coach K was also saddled with inadequate assistant coaches and a point guard with too many deficiencies to list. Future years look just as hopeless based on the inability to recruit.

I hope the voters for national coach of the year are aware of what Coach K was faced with. Thanks to all who participated on this board for enlightening the rest of us who thought the team played great through most of the year and were a joy to watch and would still be playing if we had not had an unbelievably cold spell shooting the ball against WVU.

[mgtr]

^ This is not post of the day, it is post of the decade. Sadly, all these slams will be trotted out repeatedly during the offseason.

[SilkyJ]

First, let me say that the best Duke players in the NBA -- and the only candidates for the Olympic team -- are Boozer and Brand.

And Battier. and technically JJ, though not really.


Thanks to all who participated on this board for enlightening the rest of us who thought the team played great through most of the year and were a joy to watch and would still be playing if we had not had an unbelievably cold spell shooting the ball against WVU.

I understand your post as a whole and appreciate the point you are making. But with regard to this last part, wouldn't you say that "cold shooting" became a bit of a theme late in the year this year (and was a serious factor in our losses), and has become a bit of a theme in the last 4-5 NCAA tournaments and the associated losses that knocked us out? I've noticed it. Winning the NCAAs require good guard play but also requires having that post presence that you can rely on for defensive stops and for easy buckets when the jumpers aren't falling.

To draw a comparison to the NBA, and I know the styles are very different, but all the serious title contenders in the NBA have a guy in the post who they can rely on to dump the ball down into and get a good look from 5-8 feet as opposed to a 18-22 foot jumper. Lots of teams with great guard/wing play will win in the regular season, but in the postseason having that bigman that you can dump it into is what wins playoff games and Championships. Thats why the spurs have won so many titles recently with duncan, why the lakers traded for Pau Gasol (and why they were immediately considered title contenders after that trade).

I think the most illustrative example, though, is the Suns and Shaq. For the last 3 years or so the Suns have had Nash the league MVP for at least 2 of those years running the show with a stellar supporting cast of Marion (all-star) and Stoudemire (all-star). They would win a ton of games during the regular season, but always lost in the playoffs b/c come crunch time they had to no one to matchup with or match baskets with duncan, nowtizki, boozer, brand, etc. So they bring in Shaq. People will argue that the Suns traded for Shaq for his Defense b/c Amare can't guard Duncan, Nowitzki, Ming, Garnett, etc., but that just illustrates my points further by showing that when you have that reliable big guy it really make a difference: I mean the Suns traded an all-star who is one of the best defenders in the NBA and averages a double-double (Marion) for an injured and washed up shaq b/c that's how much difference it makes in the post-season. (we're still waiting to see whether it works out or not, but its clear that the even the vaunted Suns offense realizes they can't reach the pinnacle of success without that elite post presence)

So in the end, going 26-4 in the regular season is a great, great accomplishment, and I am proud of our team and the staff, and yes its probably s testament to Krzyzewski that he could go 26-4 given the players he had to work with, but we all want to win come march, and it is my opinion that a serious post presence is needed to do that.

Related to that: a PG who is a serious slasher and has some athleticism is another key ingredient b/c, much like that reliable big man I am talking about above, he can get his own shot from closer in (to say nothing of drive and kicks and dishing to wide open big men when the center has to rotate on defense)

[mk76]

And Battier. and technically JJ, though not really.



I understand your post as a whole and appreciate the point you are making. But with regard to this last part, wouldn't you say that "cold shooting" became a bit of a theme late in the year this year (and was a serious factor in our losses), and has become a bit of a theme in the last 4-5 NCAA tournaments and the associated losses that knocked us out? I've noticed it. Winning the NCAAs require good guard play but also requires having that post presence that you can rely on for defensive stops and for easy buckets when the jumpers aren't falling.

To draw a comparison to the NBA, and I know the styles are very different, but all the serious title contenders in the NBA have a guy in the post who they can rely on to dump the ball down into and get a good look from 5-8 feet as opposed to a 18-22 foot jumper. Lots of teams with great guard/wing play will win in the regular season, but in the postseason having that bigman that you can dump it into is what wins playoff games and Championships. Thats why the spurs have won so many titles recently with duncan, why the lakers traded for Pau Gasol (and why they were immediately considered title contenders after that trade).

I think the most illustrative example, though, is the Suns and Shaq. For the last 3 years or so the Suns have had Nash the league MVP for at least 2 of those years running the show with a stellar supporting cast of Marion (all-star) and Stoudemire (all-star). They would win a ton of games during the regular season, but always lost in the playoffs b/c come crunch time they had to no one to matchup with or match baskets with duncan, nowtizki, boozer, brand, etc. So they bring in Shaq. People will argue that the Suns traded for Shaq for his Defense b/c Amare can't guard Duncan, Nowitzki, Ming, Garnett, etc., but that just illustrates my points further by showing that when you have that reliable big guy it really make a difference: I mean the Suns traded an all-star who is one of the best defenders in the NBA and averages a double-double (Marion) for an injured and washed up shaq b/c that's how much difference it makes in the post-season. (we're still waiting to see whether it works out or not, but its clear that the even the vaunted Suns offense realizes they can't reach the pinnacle of success without that elite post presence)

So in the end, going 26-4 in the regular season is a great, great accomplishment, and I am proud of our team and the staff, and yes its probably s testament to Krzyzewski that he could go 26-4 given the players he had to work with, but we all want to win come march, and it is my opinion that a serious post presence is needed to do that.

Related to that: a PG who is a serious slasher and has some athleticism is another key ingredient b/c, much like that reliable big man I am talking about above, he can get his own shot from closer in (to say nothing of drive and kicks and dishing to wide open big men when the center has to rotate on defense)
We absolutely need a post player a la Laettner who is willing to stomp on an opposing player's chest. Ya gotta have a little nasty.

[Channing]

Reading this post and many others has convinced me that Coach K should not only be in the Hall of Fame, they should name it for him based on this season's record. When the year started it was obvious the Devils were undersized and very young. Despite that they went 28-6 and beat UNC in Chapel Hill . What we know now, which I learned from reading the posts on DBR, was that Duke also:
1) Had no quickness
2) Had no slashers
3) Could not shoot under pressure
4) Had no fun and played with no heart

Coach K was also saddled with inadequate assistant coaches and a point guard with too many deficiencies to list. Future years look just as hopeless based on the inability to recruit.

I hope the voters for national coach of the year are aware of what Coach K was faced with. Thanks to all who participated on this board for enlightening the rest of us who thought the team played great through most of the year and were a joy to watch and would still be playing if we had not had an unbelievably cold spell shooting the ball against WVU.

This is exactly the type of response that seems to stifle conversation. I was pointing out what I believe to be a weakness in Duke's team - i.e. Wojo as our big man coach. Rather than getting a response that "no - look at the history - Boozer got better, Brand got better etc etc. A point guard big man is well suited to teach a young big man A, B, and C," there is a response that in essence defers back to K. Like many on this board - I am extremely passionate about the team. That doesn't mean I cant question things - and I come here to see counter points to my point.

I know that Duke support is rampant, but in light of recent conversations on this board - I personally don't see what the response added to the conversation.

[Ignatius07]

Related to that: a PG who is a serious slasher and has some athleticism is another key ingredient b/c, much like that reliable big man I am talking about above, he can get his own shot from closer in (to say nothing of drive and kicks and dishing to wide open big men when the center has to rotate on defense)

Well thought-out post, Silky. I don't agree with all of it, but there are some really good points in there. I used to be totally in your camp on this one, but I'm starting to think differently. Certainly Davidson (missed 3 from a Final Four) doesn't have a big man they can turn to for a needed bucket, and their point guard - while very good - is not an incredible scoring threat. They played great defense and (obviously) have a phenomenal scorer... at the 2 position.

I do agree that having an athletic 1 who can break down the defense is important, but not just because he can get a close shot, and thus creating the equivalent of a high-percentage post shot. It's because he can dish out for a wide open 3 or dump off to a post man for a close, high-percentage shot. Lance has shown the ability to convert on changes like these, from very close in, even jumping over the defender for a close shot off the basket. Sure it is great to have a post guy who can create his own shot, but if a PG can do it for him, that's great too.

And I also think that having a good team of slashers can make up for this a great deal, if they are good ball handlers with decent court vision. DeMarcus never really developed anything more than decent court vision, and his ball handling was never superb. If Gerald and Nolan can continue to improve in these capacities (whether or not Nolan is able to become the PG we want him to), and if Elliot is able to step in and contribute in this way, then I think we don't NEED elite post guys. Zoubek and/or LT will still have to improve, but it's simply not a requisite to have elite scoring big men to win on the big stage. Defense is more important in this area, and I think we are decent here and will improve if Zoubek sees more time, as he did at the end of this season.

That said, when you both lack elite scoring big men and an athletic PG who can break defenses down off the dribble, it ultimately limits how far you can go. We saw this year that the loads of talent that we have can take us quite far in the regular season, but we still fell short in the tournaments.

I think it is illustrative that the last time we had a great post player, in 2006, we lost in the Sweet 16.

[KandG]

This is exactly the type of response that seems to stifle conversation. I was pointing out what I believe to be a weakness in Duke's team - i.e. Wojo as our big man coach.


The problem is that this argument is trotted out on this board and other boards endlessly, and yet it is rarely backed up with any real reasoning, or any examples of the "big man coaches" at other schools and their stellar and consistent record of development.

I don't have a laundry list of "big man coaches" from other schools who wipe the floor with Wojo. i never even used to think about "big man coaches" until suddenly, this topic seemed to flare up like crazy over the last two years. I'm wondering what poor Wojo did to deserve such enmity.

I'm assuming it's the dubious record of tall people wearing a Duke uniform who've either played or transferred over the last four years? This is of course, treading on dead horse territory, but I've never seen the "problem" as linearly as other people have seen it --- "bad" big men, therefore blame it on "bad" big man coach. I've never believed that Casey Sanders, Eric Boateng or Shavlik Randolph could become Kevin Love with better coaching...but again, are other schools doing this? Please cite examples.

I don't remember thinking that we had a "good" big man coach all the years we were going to the Final Four between 1988 and 1994, when we didn't really have any more bangers than we do now, but suddenly, the "bad big man coach" theory just will not die.

I am really not trying to be snippy, I just see this theory being espoused by the majority of its adherents in a very knee-jerk manner, with little explanation. I would be more convinced if there were successful examples at other schools that could serve as a model. But I mostly see finger pointing at the perceived weaknesses of Duke's organization, with little evidence.

[CALVET]

When one establishes the yardstick by which to "evaluate" players and when we raise questions about Duke's inside size, we might keep in mind that Davidson has no McDonald AA's and no one taller than 6'8". They have no "wide bodies" nor great "leapers." What they do have other than Curry is a smart "four year" experienced point guard and team cohesiveness.
We might do well by taking a chance on some kids who are just below the radar but end up giving four years of experience.


Lovedale has obscene hops.

[rickshack]

It feels as tho more than 1000 of Silkys posts have had the same big man slasher point guard rant. This is dicussion? No its just bludging a subject .We understand how you feel. We truly do

[AtlDuke72]

This is exactly the type of response that seems to stifle conversation. I was pointing out what I believe to be a weakness in Duke's team - i.e. Wojo as our big man coach. Rather than getting a response that "no - look at the history - Boozer got better, Brand got better etc etc. A point guard big man is well suited to teach a young big man A, B, and C," there is a response that in essence defers back to K. Like many on this board - I am extremely passionate about the team. That doesn't mean I cant question things - and I come here to see counter points to my point.

I know that Duke support is rampant, but in light of recent conversations on this board - I personally don't see what the response added to the conversation.


It is hard to discuss or question a "belief" that has not been supported by any facts. Is it Wojo's height or his former position that supports your opinion? Has any recruit ever commented on this, or any player ever voiced that opinion that the coaching is not adequate. Any coach or talking head ever suggested it? Absent some facts, deferring to Coach K seems to me to be the only reasonable answer.

There is no doubt that Duke was undersized this year.Also the major improvement needs to occur from Thomas and Zoubek or the team is unlikely to be an elite team next year. The problem is that Patrick Patterson and several others chose to go elsewhere. It happened to Carolina for years. Duke had no where to turn when the shots did not fall against WVU. If they make 5 0ut of 15 ownd the stretch, Duke wins by 9. If our best player had played his average game we also win easily. The point is that there were a lot of things done right. Does knee jerk criticism on this, and several other points mentioned in my original post, without and factual support really promote a conversation? If so, I think I will pass on participating in it.

[eddiehaskell]

Isn't Elliot Williams a slasher that can dunk well? Hopefully he can be effective as a freshman....moreso than DeMarcus at the end of the year! If he can get inside, he'll be able to kick it out for 3s.

At the least, I'd like to see Lance Thomas gain 15 pounds of muscle and for Zoubeck to atleast not look like his feet are moving through wet cement.

[3rd Dukie]

Reading this post and many others has convinced me that Coach K should not only be in the Hall of Fame, they should name it for him based on this season's record. When the year started it was obvious the Devils were undersized and very young. Despite that they went 28-6 and beat UNC in Chapel Hill . What we know now, which I learned from reading the posts on DBR, was that Duke also:
1) Had no quickness
2) Had no slashers
3) Could not shoot under pressure
4) Had no fun and played with no heart

Coach K was also saddled with inadequate assistant coaches and a point guard with too many deficiencies to list. Future years look just as hopeless based on the inability to recruit.

I hope the voters for national coach of the year are aware of what Coach K was faced with. Thanks to all who participated on this board for enlightening the rest of us who thought the team played great through most of the year and were a joy to watch and would still be playing if we had not had an unbelievably cold spell shooting the ball against WVU.

How cool is this?!
Thanks for the great summation.

[Skitzle]

There's been a lot of talk (on this board/in the media) about k's downswing in recruiting and his inability to put together and effective athletic team.

Now that the season is over, all personality issues aside: How much different/better would this team have been if McRoberts sticks around for 1 more year.

Coach K still has it, just hasn't worked out perfectly.

UNC isn't a championship team this year if either lawson or hansborough left last year....

[AtlDuke72]

There's been a lot of talk (on this board/in the media) about k's downswing in recruiting and his inability to put together and effective athletic team.

Now that the season is over, all personality issues aside: How much different/better would this team have been if McRoberts sticks around for 1 more year.

Coach K still has it, just hasn't worked out perfectly.

UNC isn't a championship team this year if either lawson or hansborough left last year....

It is hard to guess at the answer the way you posed the question since the issue with McRoberts appears to have been his personality. There has been a lot of speculation about how he got along with his teammates etc. etc. and some of the posters may have reliable information about that. Most of us are limited to what we saw of his body language which wasn't always good. I don't think there is any doubt that he would have been a huge asset if those problems would have been overcome. About 15 points a game in the middle and 8 rebounds out of the spot opposite Singler, and the added strength on the bench, would have solved most of our problems. IMO there is a good chance we would still be playing.

[SilkyJ]

Certainly Davidson (missed 3 from a Final Four) doesn't have a big man they can turn to for a needed bucket, and their point guard - while very good - is not an incredible scoring threat. They played great defense and (obviously) have a phenomenal scorer... at the 2 position.

I think using davidson as a measuring stick is pretty ridiculous. Midmajor cinderellas happen every year with similar personnel and styles but look who's in the final four: all chalk. Last year was 3 #1's and a #2. But that's not even the point: we simply can't start comparing ourselves against whatever flavor of the week cinderella team happens to get hot in the tourney.

(for the record, not a knock on davidson. had them in the sweet 16 actually)



I do agree that having an athletic 1 who can break down the defense is important, but not just because he can get a close shot, and thus creating the equivalent of a high-percentage post shot. It's because he can dish out for a wide open 3 or dump off to a post man for a close, high-percentage shot. Lance has shown the ability to convert on changes like these, from very close in, even jumping over the defender for a close shot off the basket. Sure it is great to have a post guy who can create his own shot, but if a PG can do it for him, that's great too.

And I also think that having a good team of slashers can make up for this a great deal, if they are good ball handlers with decent court vision. DeMarcus never really developed anything more than decent court vision, and his ball handling was never superb. If Gerald and Nolan can continue to improve in these capacities (whether or not Nolan is able to become the PG we want him to), and if Elliot is able to step in and contribute in this way, then I think we don't NEED elite post guys. Zoubek and/or LT will still have to improve, but it's simply not a requisite to have elite scoring big men to win on the big stage. Defense is more important in this area, and I think we are decent here and will improve if Zoubek sees more time, as he did at the end of this season.


I agree to a certain extent here, that having a good slashing team requires only good but not necessarily great big men to dish to, get putbacks, etc. I would only argue that one of the main qualities I would want in a big man in this regard is that he be a good finisher. Lance is solid to good, I think, and getting better I presume...Zoubek still has much work to do but is also getting better. I certainly have not given up on either guy and think both can develop into good to very good post players, but I'm not ready to take it to the bank, at least for next year.

[dukeblue1215]

For '09 i believe that getting Kenny Boynton is an absolute must. I play AAU basketball myself and was in a tournament at the Disney Wide World Of Sports last week, and i got to see Boynton play in one of the games before my own. One word to describe him would be amazing. He hit at least 6 three's and had some very nice dunks and alley-oop passes as well. Oh yeah his team also won by 93 points! Watching him reminded me a lot of J-Will.

[Ignatius07]

All these J-Will comparisons are confusing me - and let me preface this by I know nobody is promising he will turn out to be as good as J-Will, etc.

I have seen Boynton play just once, in a televised game on ESPNU - I can't remember who his team was playing. But while I thought he showed good handle, quickness, and a real nice pull-up game, I didn't see the upper body strength (in fact he looked quite small to me) or ability/willingness to take it to the rack like J-Will did. Perhaps someone who has seen him more can comment, but even in terms of style I thought the J-Will comparison was odd.

[Coballs]

In a bit of positive news, TDD is reporting that Duke is now pursuing Derrick Favors. This is the first time I've seen Duke and Favors mentioned together. I hope the interest is mutual.

[AtlDuke72]

In a bit of positive news, TDD is reporting that Duke is now pursuing Derrick Favors. This is the first time I've seen Duke and Favors mentioned together. I hope the interest is mutual.

Bring Favors and Boynton into the mix and everything will be right in the world of college basketball!

[watzone]

In a bit of positive news, TDD is reporting that Duke is now pursuing Derrick Favors. This is the first time I've seen Duke and Favors mentioned together. I hope the interest is mutual.

Duke has never crossed Favors off their list since last July. Some of you guys need to subscribe:) I have told my members for a long time that if Favors wanted to come to Durham, a ship is there for him. He's been on every 2009 prospect list I've put out for more than a year running. The bottom line is he has yet to trim his list and is just now starting to take serious looks at schools.

[pless55]

I think we should start to look at Daniel Orton from Oklahoma and give him a scholarship. Don't no much about but if you think about it I don't how much of a chance we have at getting Favors. But if Favors wants to come to Duke he can!:D

[yancem]

Does anyone know where we stand with Painter and Riley? I know that Favors is now in the mix but I'm not sure what our chances are with him. Painter seemed interested at one point (not sure about Riley, didn't read much about his situation) but haven't heard anything recently.

As much as it would be great to sign Favors, I would be pretty happy with Painter or Riley. Regardless, it would be nice to read some positive recruiting news right about now.

[dukeimac]

I'm not sure the new plan will be adopted but I'll go with a no.

Thus, I think it is time for Coach K to take a long hard look at some 4 star recruits. They would come with the idea of staying at least 3 if not 4 years. And could mature very nicely. The 4 star guys wouldn't think they need a lot of playing time right away either. The 5 star and McD's guys are coming and going too much.

This year almost all of the top 10 drafts picks look to be underclassman.

[Ignatius07]

What are you talking about?

Virtually half of team next year (Singler, Henderson, Paulus, Scheyer, Thomas, Williams, Smith) were 5-star recruits. Of those, 1 will be a senior, 3 will be juniors, and 2 will be sophomores. The next iteration of Duke will not exactly have been hit hard by early entrants.

Besides, I think Coach K is already doing what you are describing, but in a better way. He is getting the 5-star recruits who are likely to be 3- or 4-year players. You do sacrifice a huge shot in the arm like a Rose, Beasley, or Mayo, but I don't think K has given up on the one-and-dones either.

[JasonEvans]

This year almost all of the top 10 drafts picks look to be underclassman.

Ummm, please find me the last time that was not the case in the NBA draft.

Have you been paying attention to the draft the past decade or so?

-Jason "granted, 2008 seems to tilt even more to freshmen and sophs than usual, but it is not like there have been tons of seniors dominating the draft since the mid-1990s at least" Evans

[Charles Wicker]

Not another great three point shooter!!! We're loaded already. Say slasher, dunker, creater of his own shot, banger, tough; but please, pretty please, don't say our prospect is a, "lights out shooter from the perimeter! Please. No more! Please! By the way, I thought all our recruits were five star, All Americans, Nike ABCD, Gibbons top 20, Blue-chips.

Perhaps we need to go even lower than 4 star.

[kramerbr]

In the article on the main page, Mcdonald mentions that he loves to draw and would like to major in Achitecture. Could someone fill me in on if Duke has a program for that or similar to it?

[JasonEvans]

In the article on the main page, Mcdonald mentions that he loves to draw and would like to major in Achitecture. Could someone fill me in on if Duke has a program for that or similar to it?

I may be wrong, but Architecture is a graduate-level thing, not a UGrad major. It is sorta like saying, does Duke allow you to major in Medicine?

Duke does have a very fine Art, Art History, and Visual Studies department (http://www.duke.edu/web/art/ugrad/major.html) with a variety of majors there which could easily lead one to post-graduate studies in Architecture, if that is what you want.

--Jason "any architects want to correct me?" Evans

[CDu]

I may be wrong, but Architecture is a graduate-level thing, not a UGrad major. It is sorta like saying, does Duke allow you to major in Medicine?

Duke does have a very fine Art, Art History, and Visual Studies department (http://www.duke.edu/web/art/ugrad/major.html) with a variety of majors there which could easily lead one to post-graduate studies in Architecture, if that is what you want.

--Jason "any architects want to correct me?" Evans

I have a friend who majored in architecture at a state school. Well, he did so for a semester and a half, maybe, before switching to one of his seven different "majors of the week." It took him like 6-7 years to graduate.

Also, I believe I remember one of the players in the NCAA tourney majoring in psychology and architecture, because one of the play-by-play guys made a terrible joke about how "he could design a house for you and explain to you how you feel about it."

Duke may or may not have an architecture major, but it is definitely available at the undergrad level.

[JasonEvans]

I have a friend who majored in architecture at a state school. Well, he did so for a semester and a half, maybe, before switching to one of his seven different "majors of the week." It took him like 6-7 years to graduate.

Also, I believe I remember one of the players in the NCAA tourney majoring in psychology and architecture, because one of the play-by-play guys made a terrible joke about how "he could design a house for you and explain to you how you feel about it."

Duke may or may not have an architecture major, but it is definitely available at the undergrad level.

Like I said, "I may be wrong..."

Thanks for correcting me.

-JE

[bdh21]

As you all saw, in the front page article on Leslie McDonald he said that he'd "probably major in architecture" in college. Is anyone else worried that Duke's lack of an architecture program could be a big knock against us in the recruitment of Leslie?

-Concerned Citizen

(Note: Tongue is in cheek!)

[Indoor66]

As you all saw, in the front page article on Leslie McDonald he said that he'd "probably major in architecture" in college. Is anyone else worried that Duke's lack of an architecture program could be a big knock against us in the recruitment of Leslie?

-Concerned Citizen

(Note: Tongue is in cheek!)

Quite frankly, the lack of an architecture program does not concern me. If that program is a primary criteria for his college selection then we are not in the running. So be it and best wishes to him.

[Jarhead]

Quite frankly, the lack of an architecture program does not concern me. If that program is a primary criteria for his college selection then we are not in the running. So be it and best wishes to him.
Architecture at the ugrad level isn't that big of a deal, anyhow. If that's his ambition, he could easily set a program that gets him into one of the elite design grad schools. Or he could wait until his NBA career is over, and then buy one of those elites.

[Devilsfan]

He could help redo east campus or that mythical new central campus.

[hondoheel]

Does that mean he'll put up a lot of bricks?

[mgtr]

Here's a concrete suggestion -- maybe he will have a lot of blocks.

[prefan21]

As you all saw, in the front page article on Leslie McDonald he said that he'd "probably major in architecture" in college. Is anyone else worried that Duke's lack of an architecture program could be a big knock against us in the recruitment of Leslie?

-Concerned Citizen

(Note: Tongue is in cheek!)

Ah, but at Duke, you can design your own major.

He could create an architecture major beyond other schools' wildest dreams.

[SilkyJ]

He could help redo east campus or that mythical new central campus.

Gothic Village, please.

[chrisheery]

NC State also has an architecture and landscape architecture school. Both undergrad degrees are considered pre-professional degrees. Different states have different requirements, but most places require either a Master's or a Bachelor's degree of Architecture. (1 and 2 extra years if you have an undergrad degree respectively).

resources for those interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architect#United_States
http://ncsudesign.org/content/index.cfm/fuseaction/page/filename/master_architecture.html


Regardless, an undergrad at Duke can take the requirements needed in design, math, etc to qualify to apply for a Masters in Architecture.

[dyedwab]

Regardless, an undergrad at Duke can take the requirements needed in design, math, etc to qualify to apply for a Masters in Architecture.

Don't know if it is still true, but back when I was in school, students who were interested in being architect were encouraged to do course work in Civil Engineering.

A guy who lived on my hall freshman year and wanted to be an architect all his life went the route of a CE major, and then got a master's and has been a practicing architect for years.

So, my point is that Leslie McDonald's desired academic path is not so unusual that Duke wouldn't be able to accommodate it.

[Duke79UNLV77]

"Jerry, you know I always wanted to pretend to be an architect."

[Cormac]

There is an article on the front page of rivals.com titled Real Deal: Youngsters Take Over Saturday Night. Here's the link:
http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=799362

If you scroll down a little bit, there is a blurb on the Boynton - Stephenson matchup. It sounds like Boynton lit him up, going for 21 (including 5 3's) in the last 15 minutes of the game. They basically say he may be the best scoring guard in his class. Hopefully K works his magic on him!!

[freedevil]

"I don't think there's too many programs in the country where if you don't get to the Sweet 16 every year it's considered a down year," Plumlee said. "I like that."

I like this kid's mentality already.

[dukefan47]

i dont have a link but i know a guy who is in the recruiting buisness near georgia and he says that the top 3 for Favors is Duke, GT, and GU

[Bob Green]

Kenny Boynton was named MVP (http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/content.asp?cid=799483) of The Real Deal on the Hill tournament this past weekend in Fayetteville, Arkansas. Boynton's best game was in the semi-finals where he exploded against the New York Gauchos and Lance Stephenson. In the finals, super-sophomore Brandon Knight was the star with 25 points.

[Channing]

i dont have a link but i know a guy who is in the recruiting buisness near georgia and he says that the top 3 for Favors is Duke, GT, and GU

for GU do you mean Georgetown and are you sure its not UGA? The only reason I ask is Favors has said from the beginning he wants to stay home.

[dukefan47]

for GU do you mean Georgetown and are you sure its not UGA? The only reason I ask is Favors has said from the beginning he wants to stay home.

sorry i meant UGA as in georgia

[JasonEvans]

Favors choice is:

1) Stay home and make one of the local teams good for a season -- perhaps good enough to make the NCAA tourney but almost certainly not good enough to be a consistent Top 25 team or at all a Final Four contender -- while appearing on national TV maybe 3 or 4 times all season...

or 2) Go to Duke and be a key factor on a team that is likely to be one of the top contenders for the national title and play on national TV in every single game.

Damn, that's a tough choice ;)

-Jason "Duke does not have a great history of signing kids from Atlanta, I think " Evans

[gvtucker]

-Jason "Duke does not have a great history of signing kids from Atlanta, I think " Evans
Now that you mention it, Jason, I don't think Coach K has EVER signed a kid from the state of Georgia. Closest we could probably get would be walk-ons Mark Causey and Pat Johnston.

[Duvall]

Now that you mention it, Jason, I don't think Coach K has EVER signed a kid from the state of Georgia. Closest we could probably get would be walk-ons Mark Causey and Pat Johnston.

Will Avery, but he was from Augusta, not Atlanta, and via Oak Hill.

[wilson]

Perhaps the Atlanta Mafia should bust out and put the screws to this kid?

[Blueequalslife23]

Does anybody know who we've offered for 2009 with TK gone i believe we have 1 more so we have 4 or 5 but can anybody tell me the players we have offered?

[kramerbr]

i dont have a link but i know a guy who is in the recruiting buisness near georgia and he says that the top 3 for Favors is Duke, GT, and GU

Any reason why in the article on the main recruiting page about Favors, there is still no mention as Duke as a possible suitor?

Mentions several teams such as UConn, UNC, GT, and UGA but no Duke. A little strange if we are "rumored" to be one of his top 3.

[dukefan47]

i was thinking that too...and why havent we been put on his lists?
weird...have we officially offered him?

[kramerbr]

It must be some information that only a premium membership can get....

[Bob Green]

It must be some information that only a premium membership can get....

There is much recruiting information available on DBR. We have offered:

Kenny Boynton - http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=24745 the article contains this quote:


This is the latest honor for Boynton, who is on the wish list of Texas, Duke, Memphis, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Florida, Florida State and Miami, among others.

Leslie McDonald - http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=24772 the article contains this quote:


In no specific order, Memphis, North Carolina, Duke, Tennessee and Georgetown make up McDonald's top five schools. All have offered scholarships. McDonald said he would make a decision "sometime near the end of the summer and the beginning of the school year."

[kramerbr]

There is much recruiting information available on DBR. We have offered:

Kenny Boynton - http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=24745 the article contains this quote:



Leslie McDonald - http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=24772 the article contains this quote:


And what good recruiting information that is. However, it doesn't have anything to do with the original question regarding Favors' list.

[watzone]

And what good recruiting information that is. However, it doesn't have anything to do with the original question regarding Favors' list.


Favors list is a work in progress. And yes, if you get into specific questions or levels of information you may find a subscription site handy.

[novablue4]

Favors list is a work in progress. And yes, if you get into specific questions or levels of information you may find a subscription site handy.

Mark has a very good site, I would not stop coming to DBR, but a premium scrpt to his site may be to your liking. Also, Scouts has a recruiting page that offers some interesting reading, finally ZAGSBLOG was the only site or seemly person in the world who knew that Duke was not even in the mix for Echenique and I THINK the coaches believed they were right in there with the young man.

Wat has mentioned a new name recently that Duke has some interest in, might remind you of a situation at Maryland not long ago.

But you need to find the site and join up, i can't give away hard won information obviously.

I just wish we would try for Terrence Shannon, I know he is only 6'6" or a little taller, but seems he is not afraid to play in the paint at all.

One last thing, I have seen Montrose Christian several times and DC Assault once. Tristan Spurlock has a college ready body right now and plays outside in. I like him and he grew up a Duke fan.

But I know b-ball, I won't explain who taught me but it was knowledgeable people (one was Tom Young who I spent three summers with in the Pocono's and he selected me for the camp All-Star team and I will never forget that, there seemed so many better PG's there) and although I know a lot I don't have the information Watzone or others work so hard to get.

I mean I thought Danny Ferry would be sort of middle of the road college player and I was certain Travis Garrison would be a mid-first round pick in the NBA by his junior year. I thought that Hayes at Maryland should have gone to Davidson or Marshall, not the ACC. So, I have been pretty far off at times.:o

[Ignatius07]

I mean I thought Danny Ferry would be sort of middle of the road college player and I was certain Travis Garrison would be a mid-first round pick in the NBA by his junior year. I thought that Hayes at Maryland should have gone to Davidson or Marshall, not the ACC. So, I have been pretty far off at times.

Hayes has actually not done that well, so perhaps you're not as far off as you think. There were some rumblings a while back that he might transfer, FWIW.

[CMS2478]

But they are all giddy on IC bc some Memphis radio talk show host said Leslie McDonald is headed to UNC. Hope that's not true. :(

[crimsonandblue]

Just saw Miles Plumlee (2008) asked out of his LOI at Stanfurd. Any chance you guys go after another Plumlee boy?

[kramerbr]

Just saw Miles Plumlee (2008) asked out of his LOI at Stanfurd. Any chance you guys go after another Plumlee boy?

You have a link for that?

[toughbuff1]

http://stanford.scout.com/

[Cormac]

http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=801514

The writer answers a question about Boynton with regards to what position he would play in college. He also discusses Duke's chances of landing him......sorta. Is it just me or does Duke not usually whiff on the guards they want? I mean, I know the big man issue, but I never really thought K had a problem landing the guards he wanted, especially the ones he recruits hard and for a long time. Am I wrong? Also, anybody else really think this kid will be really, really good? I don't know much about him short of some game tape and what's written in the papers, but he seems fearless and has that "I want the big shot and I'll bury you" kind of mentality a la JWill. I know, not fair to compare him to JWill yet, but he kind of reminds me in the way he plays. Sorry, I'll stop rambling now.

[Skitzle]

http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=801514

The writer answers a question about Boynton with regards to what position he would play in college. He also discusses Duke's chances of landing him......sorta. Is it just me or does Duke not usually whiff on the guards they want? I mean, I know the big man issue, but I never really thought K had a problem landing the guards he wanted, especially the ones he recruits hard and for a long time. Am I wrong? Also, anybody else really think this kid will be really, really good? I don't know much about him short of some game tape and what's written in the papers, but he seems fearless and has that "I want the big shot and I'll bury you" kind of mentality a la JWill. I know, not fair to compare him to JWill yet, but he kind of reminds me in the way he plays. Sorry, I'll stop rambling now.

No, its not just you. I also believe Duke has a very good track record with guards. At the end of the day though, recruiting depends upon the whims of high school kids, so anything is possible. I'm also sure a couple people here can list high profile guard whiffs.

[Bob Green]

According to this article:

http://www.courier-journal.com/blogs/demling/blog.html

Duke is looking at Jordan Hulls a point guard out of Indiana who was impressive last weekend at the Pittsburgh Jam Fest. Hulls plays his AAU ball for Indiana Elite alongside Mason Plumlee and Stephen Van Treese.

[superdave]

Do we lose major ground with any recruits in particular with Dawkins' departure?

[JasonEvans]

Do we lose major ground with any recruits in particular with Dawkins' departure?

Hard to say but Dawkins was not a big part of our recruiting. Collins and Wojo were the designated recruiters among the assistant coaches.

--Jason

[Bob Green]

With the addition of Miles Plumlee to the 2008 class, and Mason Plumlee already committed in 2009, we have two scholarships remaining to give in 2009. Kenny Boynton and Leslie McDonald are our top two targets for those spots with backup options being evaluated. I'm happy with the players who have signed and optimistic we will bring in a couple of more quality players and thought it was time to kick this thread back to the front page and continue the conversation.

[Duke09]

I thought we had 4 to offer even before King left. The elder plumblee take his , the younger plumblee gets one, and shouldn't we still have 3 left? For a big guy like Favors, Riley, ect., McDonald and Boynton?

[Bob Green]

I thought we had 4 to offer even before King left. The elder plumblee take his , the younger plumblee gets one, and shouldn't we still have 3 left? For a big guy like Favors, Riley, ect., McDonald and Boynton?

Nope. We currently have two 2009 scholarships available. You are allowed 13:

2009: Mason Plumlee
2008: E. Williams, O. Czyz, & Miles Plumlee
2007: K. Singler & N. Smith
2006: B. Zoubek, L. Thomas, J. Scheyer, G. Henderson & M. Pocius

That is 11, which leaves two more available unless someone leaves early for the NBA.

[Troublemaker]

Bob is correct, of course. Keep in mind, though, that both Gerald and Kyle might be early-entry candidates, and Marty might elect to graduate and play ball. In the end, there will likely be flexibility to offer 4 guys in '09, if needed.

[Indoor66]

Nope. We currently have two 2009 scholarships available. You are allowed 13:

2009: Mason Plumlee
2008: E. Williams, O. Czyz, & Miles Plumlee
2007: K. Singler & N. Smith
2006: B. Zoubek, L. Thomas, J. Scheyer, G. Henderson & M. Pocius

That is 11, which leaves two more available unless someone leaves early for the NBA.

Kinda takes me to Birds and Bushes thoughts! :)

[Duke09]

so we are recruiting 2 guards, Boynton and McDonald, and no bigs? Please tell me we are courting a big and expecting someone to leave.

[Jumbo]

so we are recruiting 2 guards, Boynton and McDonald, and no bigs? Please tell me we are courting a big and expecting someone to leave.

Just read this thread. You only have to go back a page. We are courting several bigs. And we aren't "expecting" someone to leave -- why would anyone hope that Henderson or Singler would depart, for example? Would losing them and gaining ANY freshman be a positive tradeoff? Geez.

[kramerbr]

so we are recruiting 2 guards, Boynton and McDonald, and no bigs? Please tell me we are courting a big and expecting someone to leave.

Sometimes these recruiting threads tend to be similar to the movie "Groundhog Day".

[Duke09]

With the addition of Miles Plumlee to the 2008 class, and Mason Plumlee already committed in 2009, we have two scholarships remaining to give in 2009. Kenny Boynton and Leslie McDonald are our top two targets for those spots with backup options being evaluated. I'm happy with the players who have signed and optimistic we will bring in a couple of more quality players and thought it was time to kick this thread back to the front page and continue the conversation.

If we land Boynton and McDonald, the class cannot accommodate at big such as Favors without someone leaving. Am I wrong? If Favors wants to come, we have to find space for him.

[Festus13]

If we land Boynton and McDonald, the class cannot accommodate at big such as Favors without someone leaving. Am I wrong? If Favors wants to come, we have to find space for him.

As a fan of over 40 years, and especially after watching Coach K, I've learned to let them do the painting of the picture ..... I'll just enjoy their masterpieces both as they happen and through memories ...... life is too short to try to control what one cannot control.

[Bob Green]

If we land Boynton and McDonald, the class cannot accommodate at big such as Favors without someone leaving. Am I wrong? If Favors wants to come, we have to find space for him.

We have two scholarships available and it is my understanding that Kenny Boynton and Leslie McDonald are our top targets. As far as finding room for Derrick Favors, I agree with Jumbo:


Just read this thread. You only have to go back a page. We are courting several bigs. And we aren't "expecting" someone to leave -- why would anyone hope that Henderson or Singler would depart, for example? Would losing them and gaining ANY freshman be a positive tradeoff? Geez.

and with Festus13:


As a fan of over 40 years, and especially after watching Coach K, I've learned to let them do the painting of the picture ..... I'll just enjoy their masterpieces both as they happen and through memories ...... life is too short to try to control what one cannot control.

A 2009 recruiting class of Mason Plumlee, Kenny Boynton, and Leslie McDonald would be extremely strong. If we miss on Boynton and/or McDonald, Duke has backup plans. Obviously, Derrick Favors is extremely talented and I'd love to see him in a Duke uniform, but I haven't read anything on the internet that leads me to believe he is seriously considering Duke. As it currently stands, we will have Kyle Singler, Brian Zoubek, Lance Thomas, Olek Czyz, Miles Plumlee, and Mason Plumlee as a frontcourt at the start of the 2009 season. That's not shabby! IMO, the serious recruiting junkies should be looking to the Class of 2010 for Duke's next frontcourt target.

[gotham devil]

Obviously, Derrick Favors is extremely talented and I'd love to see him in a Duke uniform, but I haven't read anything on the internet that leads me to believe he is seriously considering Duke.
There is a web site that recently (last weekend at the King James Shootings Stars Classic) conducted an interview with him in which he discussed his feelings towards Duke, but, since the web site can't be linked directly without something reading, "http://www.pottymouth!", etc., you can p/m me for a link.

[ice-9]

It would be great if you could provide a short summary? :D

[91.92.01DUKE]

I was under the impression thst favors was not considering duke.

[dkbaseball]

Well, here's one approach to recruiting: Wisconsin just wrapped up theirs through 2010. They like to identify early and get them in the truck before they start climbing the rankings (though that wasn't the case with the latest signee, Evan Anderson, currently ranked 5 in Rivals and 10 in Scout for the class of 2010). Their recruiting is also notable for a perfect balance of guards, wings and bigs. And they do like big. Anderson is already 6-11 and fairly wide for a high school sophomore; next year they bring in 6-11 and 7-1 players as freshmen.

Wisconsin would have to take away someone's scholly for a year or have Trevon Hughes go early to the NBA, in order to offer Jamil Wilson for the class of 2009. This kid is supposed to be the real deal, a tremendous athlete, and Duke may have a great opportunity to make him forget about the in-state schools when he comes to visit this spring.

[Uncle Drew]

This is a litle off the subject but on the subject as well, and it had crossed my mind long before I saw Jason's location now listed as "Derrick Favors' hometown". I know there are NCAA rules determining how much contact a school can contact a potential recruit that deal with everything from phone calls, to visits to even text messages. And I think we all learned how bad things can go with "boosters" at Michigan durring the Fab 5 era.

I wanted to leave a post telling Jason, "and umm why are you not in his driveway right now extolling Duke virtues and begging him to come to Durham'? I don't know if Jason is an Iron Duke or rich enough to be considered a booster. But are there NCAA rules for fans determining how much contact they can have with a recruit? I remember when Jameson Curry was so sought after here in Alamance County North Carolina before he went all Josh Howard and got busted. He had family telling him to go to one school or another and even walking down the street or down the halls in school he got opinions from people left and right. Duke got put on probabtion because someone gave David Thompson a coat and happened to be a Duke fan back in the 1970's. So I know anything that could remotely be considered a bribe to go to a certain school is a no no. But what is to stop Jason (besides dignity, sanity and ethics) from finding Favors and giving him his two cents worth about coming to Duke. And since Jason isn't a coach and as far as I know a booster couldn't he do it every day until the kid decides where to go?


One other question, while it is very clear to everyone financial (or any other kind of) bribes to get a player to go to a certain school is an NCAA violation. But an old Duke fan once told me if they won the lottery they would pay any recruit considering UNC to go ANYWHERE other than Chapel Hill. I always thought it was an interesting concept, yet one of many reasons why I have yet to win the lottery. Would that be against NCAA rules? And if the NCAA didn't know where you graduated from or who you pulled for, who would they punish. By that I mean if a rich Wake Forrest fan tried to steer players from making the mistake of wearing baby blue, could Wake Forrest get punished for that?


And if memory serves me correctly Ed Martin never got charged with any crime (because apparently it wasn't a legal crime) that had to do with Michigan. He was charged with racketeering and tax evasion, but the judicial system either did nothing or could do nothing about his bribes to players. Michigan on the other hand was slammed so hard they haven't recovered to this day. I am not suggestig that any rich Duke fan do anything like pay players not to go to UNC. I have no doubt if it worked rich UNC grads such as Jordan would pay players not to atend Duke. I'm just asking would it be an NCAA infraction? And could it hypothetically hurt Duke.

[Bob Green]

Okay, back to 2009 Recruiting: what's the story with Elijah Johnson? The story from KU Sports linked on DBR front page says Duke is on Johnson's list. Johnson, from Las Vegas, is the 35th player (#4 point guard) in the Class of 2009. I had not heard any Duke - Johnson talk prior to this weekend and the Jayhawk Invitational AAU tournament. Is Duke interested in Johnson? Is Johnson interested in Duke?

Calling on dkbaseball to provide the Nevada perspective.

[BD80]

But an old Duke fan once told me if they won the lottery they would pay any recruit considering UNC to go ANYWHERE other than Chapel Hill.

Nah, the real fun would be to take a few classes at CH (they wouldn't be hard), join the boosters club, and then start paying kids to GO to UNC. You could make it a great sociology experiment, seeing what the price point is for various teen agers of various skill levels. Also spend some cash going to booster events and get some good photos with Ol' Roy and the various assistants.

Once a couple of "your" kids are in the starting line-up, announce your remorse and confess your sins and declare that God has told you to abandon carolina and its evil ways and go over to the devils!

[Uncle Drew]

Nah, the real fun would be to take a few classes at CH (they wouldn't be hard), join the boosters club, and then start paying kids to GO to UNC. You could make it a great sociology experiment, seeing what the price point is for various teen agers of various skill levels. Also spend some cash going to booster events and get some good photos with Ol' Roy and the various assistants.

Once a couple of "your" kids are in the starting line-up, announce your remorse and confess your sins and declare that God has told you to abandon carolina and its evil ways and go over to the devils!

Okay first Bob, I'm sorry for bringing up something that didn't exactly pertain to 2009 recruiting other than Jason being within easy driving distance of a recruit.

As for you BD80 that is devious and genius all at the same time. But I don't think i have it in me to joing the Rams club under any circumstances. I've often said if I drop dead and anyone wats to bring me back to life, put a UNC shirt on me. I'd come back to life, rip it off and probably drop dead again in total shame.

[CMS2478]

Anybody heard anything new about McDonald? I have heard some say it is between us and Tennessee, others say Memphis is in the running and now leads, and now on IC they are saying UNC is the leader. (I know, bad source there). But does anybody really know who the leader is at this point? I have heard 4 schools mentioned........are there any of those that seem to be the "leader" at this point?

[Bluedawg]

He could help redo east campus or that mythical new central campus.

Or possibly Wally Wade

[Bluedawg]

Now that you mention it, Jason, I don't think Coach K has EVER signed a kid from the state of Georgia. Closest we could probably get would be walk-ons Mark Causey and Pat Johnston.

Why is that??

[CMS2478]

Why is that??

My Dad is from Georgia and this is what his answer would be........."Boy, the only guys that play basketball in Georgia are the ones who ain't tough enough to make the football team." :D

[Uncle Drew]

Why is that??

Yes I am crazy. But wasn't Will Avery from GA?

[CMS2478]

Yes I am crazy. But wasn't Will Avery from GA? And for that matter the kid who's parents died in the car wreck when he was young that were Duke grads and he ended up going to Duke. I'm pretty sure he was a walk on, but wasn't he from Atlanta. The name escapes me but it was only a few years back. Johnson maybe?

I think Avery was from Gerogia but transferred to Oak Hill in Virginia where he was recruited, so technically K didn't recruit him from Georgia. (if my memory serves me correctly).

[Uncle Drew]

My Dad is from Georgia and this is what his answer would be........."Boy, the only guys that play basketball in Georgia are the ones who ain't tough enough to make the football team." :D

My mom is from Georgia and she'd say any guys playing sports were either ugly or too blind to see all the beautiful women (aka peaches) the state of Georgia has. Who'd of thought a penal colony could yield so many Scarlet O'Hara's?

[Bluedawg]

My Dad is from Georgia and this is what his answer would be........."Boy, the only guys that play basketball in Georgia are the ones who ain't tough enough to make the football team." :D

He has a good point. Being born and bred in GA I do know that football is king.

[Channing]

My Dad is from Georgia and this is what his answer would be........."Boy, the only guys that play basketball in Georgia are the ones who ain't tough enough to make the football team." :D

growing up my friends' mothers always used to keep a picture of their son from peewee football picture day in their wallets. Since I didnt play football my mom never got to participate in that exercise.

When I went to spend a semester in Glasgow Scotland I played for their football team (meaning I actually played college football for the tigers ... not the Clemson or LSU but rather the Glasgow) and finally got my mom her picture. She never said it directly, but I knew she was proud.

true story.

[Indoor66]

Yes I am crazy. But wasn't Will Avery from GA? And for that matter the kid who's parents died in the car wreck when he was young that were Duke grads and he ended up going to Duke. I'm pretty sure he was a walk on, but wasn't he from Atlanta. The name escapes me but it was only a few years back. Johnson maybe?

Jim Suddath ('78-'81) was from East Point, GA.

[dkbaseball]

Okay, back to 2009 Recruiting: what's the story with Elijah Johnson? The story from KU Sports linked on DBR front page says Duke is on Johnson's list. Johnson, from Las Vegas, is the 35th player (#4 point guard) in the Class of 2009. I had not heard any Duke - Johnson talk prior to this weekend and the Jayhawk Invitational AAU tournament. Is Duke interested in Johnson? Is Johnson interested in Duke?

Calling on dkbaseball to provide the Nevada perspective.

I haven't heard anything about his recruiting. I did see him play in the state final against Olek's team. Johnson is extremely athletic, and looks to have a tremendous upside. 6-2 and seems to play like a 6-6 wing. He was outplayed in the state final by the junior guard on Olek's team, Austin Morgan, who went for 37 and took over the game in the 4th quarter. Johnson doesn't play point guard for his high school team, so it's hard to evaluate him in that role based on what I saw. But just incredible athleticism, perhaps similar to Kemba Walker, who will be a freshman at UConn this year, and who I think is going to be a dominant college player.

That game elevated Morgan's recruiting status from mid major to interest from schools such as Stanford (at least under Johnson) and Oregon. He may be more of a Duke type player than Johnson, as he is supposed to be a very solid, hard-working student. A four-year starter who may well have three state championships under his belt when he's done. He's a 5-11 shoot first point guard, in case Kenny Boynton isn't interested in that role at Duke. Tremendous balance that helps him getting his own shot and taking it to the rack. I love his defensive stance and how hard he works in it. In fairness re: his shoot first tendencies, Reno High's point guard went down with an ACL days before the season started and Morgan moved over from shooting guard. That probably led to some of the early trouble the team had. If Morgan were more inclined to pass, he would remind me very much of D.J. Augustin. Duke might want to have a look at him this summer, because I think they're really going to like the Reno High product already in the truck, and this one could have tremendous potential also.

[CMS2478]

It seems that according to Tennessee sights, Leslie McDonald will visit Duke and UNC the same weekend. (June 6)

[Cormac]

Duke's site on rivals is also reporting that he has visits for BOTH unc and Duke set up. No this is not premium information, its the first few lines of one of their premium articles that they let you see for free, so hopefully this won't get me banned!

[SilkyJ]

A 2009 recruiting class of Mason Plumlee, Kenny Boynton, and Leslie McDonald would be extremely strong. If we miss on Boynton and/or McDonald, Duke has backup plans. Obviously, Derrick Favors is extremely talented and I'd love to see him in a Duke uniform, but I haven't read anything on the internet that leads me to believe he is seriously considering Duke. As it currently stands, we will have Kyle Singler, Brian Zoubek, Lance Thomas, Olek Czyz, Miles Plumlee, and Mason Plumlee as a frontcourt at the start of the 2009 season. That's not shabby! IMO, the serious recruiting junkies should be looking to the Class of 2010 for Duke's next frontcourt target.

Would definitely be a strong class, but only lead to another year of "where's that beast in the paint we are looking for." The 2009 class seems to have several very, very good prospects that fit that description so I'm hopeful that as you and Fetus say, "things work themselves out," and in this case, work themselves out and leave us with one more big man.

[Classof06]

Would definitely be a strong class, but only lead to another year of "where's that beast in the paint we are looking for." The 2009 class seems to have several very, very good prospects that fit that description so I'm hopeful that as you and Fetus say, "things work themselves out," and in this case, work themselves out and leave us with one more big man.

Adding Mason in '09 will leave Duke's frontcourt in a very strong situation. Obviously, given the great talent we have on the perimiter, I'd take another 09 big man on top of Mason Plumlee, not getting that additional recruit is not the end of the world (not after last week :)).

Like I've said, there's the notion that Duke needs that Brand/Boozer/Shelden - type banger that will get 20 and 10. While that would be ideal, all Duke really needs is active big men that can defend and rebound. Duke's toughest losses this past year were directly tied to us getting dominated on the backboards (either the whole game or at crucial junctures of the game). As long as the Olek and the Brothers Plumlee can rebound (which I suspect they can), we'll be in good shape.

[SilkyJ]

Like I've said, there's the notion that Duke needs that Brand/Boozer/Shelden - type banger that will get 20 and 10. While that would be ideal, all Duke really needs is active big men that can defend and rebound. Duke's toughest losses this past year were directly tied to us getting dominated on the backboards (either the whole game or at crucial junctures of the game). As long as the Olek and the Brothers Plumlee can rebound (which I suspect they can), we'll be in good shape.

I agree that we dont have to have a sheld who gets 20/10, but rather someone who can just get us 10/8 and play good defense. But we don't have that yet, and while the plumlees look to be good players, we shall see.

As for your final sentence, given the fact that King played sparingly last year behind Kyle, Lance, and Zoubek, who should improve (not to mention McClure as a 5th yr senior), and given where most gurus have them ranked within a very average class, I dont expect to see Olek or Miles playing major minutes this coming year, though maybe you are talking about in the longer term...

[jimsumner]

Maybe this is a function of age or how long one has been following Duke but all too many people seem to think that Duke can only be successful with an Elton Brand-Carlos Boozer-Shelden Williams analog in the post. Don't get me wrong, I'll gladly take that.

But if either or both of the Plumlees can play effectively in the 230-240 pound range, that would put them in the Mark Alarie, Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner, Cherokee Parks universe and they managed effectively inside.

More than one path to the top of the mountain.

[CDu]

Maybe this is a function of age or how long one has been following Duke but all too many people seem to think that Duke can only be successful with an Elton Brand-Carlos Boozer-Shelden Williams analog in the post. Don't get me wrong, I'll gladly take that.

But if either or both of the Plumlees can play effectively in the 230-240 pound range, that would put them in the Mark Alarie, Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner, Cherokee Parks universe and they managed effectively inside.

More than one path to the top of the mountain.

I'm not sure that comparisons to the mid-80s or the early 90s are relevant. The game has changed a fair amount since the era in which those guys were really really good. 230 lbs 15-25 years ago isn't the same as 230 lbs today.

[camion]

The game has changed in another way in that most of the athletically gifted big men that would have been juniors and seniors in years past are headed to the NBA after their freshman or sophomore years.

[Dukebacker]

I always thought i had heard that Kenny seemed to have a Duke lean. Is that still true or was it even true at all?

[jimsumner]

You may be right CDu. But I remember Alarie and Bilas going up against Brad Daugherty, Chris Washburn, and David Robinson. I remember Ferry and J.R. Reid squaring off in no-blood, no-foul sumo wrestling contests. I remember Laettner matching up effectively against Shaq and Eric Montross and Chris Webber, and Parks going against 260-pound Darnell Robinson in the '94 title game.

There were in fact, big men in those days and, as camion points out, some good ones were juniors and seniors.

[CDu]

You may be right CDu. But I remember Alarie and Bilas going up against Brad Daugherty, Chris Washburn, and David Robinson. I remember Ferry and J.R. Reid squaring off in no-blood, no-foul sumo wrestling contests. I remember Laettner matching up effectively against Shaq and Eric Montross and Chris Webber, and Parks going against 260-pound Darnell Robinson in the '94 title game.

There were in fact, big men in those days and, as camion points out, some good ones were juniors and seniors.

Daugherty was 7'0" 245 lbs. Washburn was 6'11" 225 lbs. David Robinson was 7'1" 235 lbs. JR Reid was 6'9" 245 lbs. Webber was 6'9" 245 lbs. So aside from Reid and Webber, none of those guys really support the idea that 230-235 was undersized.

Sure, Shaq and Robinson were really big, but they were the exceptions, not the rule. I would be pretty shocked if there wasn't a 10-15 lb difference between the average post player 15-25 years ago and the average post player today.

[DukeBlood]

I dont think Duke has any offers to any bigs in '09. I know they have a couple of kids on radar but as of right now Kenny Boynton and Leslie McDonald are the main targets. I dont believe we have any other offers in '09 since we only have 2 scholarships available..

Anyway, It would be a good idea if we all just relax and be happy with the 6 scholarship bigs we have. Zoubek, Thomas, Czyz, Plumlee, McClure(SF), Singler(SF).

I dont know why all of you say "we need a banger down low". Zoubek IS that guy, He just needs to develope a little more. Be patient, we will survive untill he does develope.

[CDu]

I dont think Duke has any offers to any bigs in '09. I know they have a couple of kids on radar but as of right now Kenny Boynton and Leslie McDonald are the main targets. I dont believe we have any other offers in '09 since we only have 2 scholarships available..

Anyway, It would be a good idea if we all just relax and be happy with the 6 scholarship bigs we have. Zoubek, Thomas, Czyz, Plumlee, McClure(SF), Singler(SF).

I dont know why all of you say "we need a banger down low". Zoubek IS that guy, He just needs to develope a little more. Be patient, we will survive untill he does develope.

Counting on Zoubek to be the post presence we've been waiting for us is a very risky thing. The guy has yet to show he can contribute regularly at the collegiate level, and on top of that he's suffered repeated foot injuries. That's a bad sign for a big man.

Also, we do have a commitment for a "big" in 2009: Mason Plumlee. He's apparently not a prototypical big man (doesn't post up), but he is 6'11",. which constitutes being a "big."

[dkbaseball]

I would be pretty shocked if there wasn't a 10-15 lb difference between the average post player 15-25 years ago and the average post player today.

I'm not sure why you'd think that. Weigh training was pretty routine in basketball by then. If anything the game has gotten smaller. Very few college teams play three big guys across the front any more.

[SilkyJ]

Maybe this is a function of age or how long one has been following Duke but all too many people seem to think that Duke can only be successful with an Elton Brand-Carlos Boozer-Shelden Williams analog in the post. Don't get me wrong, I'll gladly take that.

But if either or both of the Plumlees can play effectively in the 230-240 pound range, that would put them in the Mark Alarie, Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner, Cherokee Parks universe and they managed effectively inside.

More than one path to the top of the mountain.

I definitely agree. Its worth noting though that guys like the ones you mention, especially ferry and laettner, were very, very skilled both in the post and on the perimeter.

We've been working with guys like Lance and Zoubek who are average in the post and ineffective on the perimeter, so the sentiment from folks is somewhat understandable. If zoubek can play 22mpg and give us 8pts/8reb/2blks, that would be AWESOME.



I dont know why all of you say "we need a banger down low". Zoubek IS that guy, He just needs to develope a little more. Be patient, we will survive untill he does develope.

I'm happy that you are optimistic WRT his development. I'm optimistic as well, but A) given his track record, its little more than "hope" and the knowledge that we have the best coaching staff in the country that you/I/we are using to be optimistic and B) we only get two more years of Zoubek, so we'd be talking about recruiting a "banger" for Zoubek's senior year, so we're more discussing someone who would replace him once he is gone.

[jimsumner]

CDu,

Where, pray tell did you get the idea that Chris Washburn was 225? Try 255.
Brad Daugherty would slice and dice the RaSean Dickey's and Ben McCauleys of todays ACC.

Would you settle for Darrell Arthur? All 225 pounds of him? Kansas seemed to get by okay. Sasha Kaun, btw, is listed as 6' 10", 250, so we're talking ten pounds here and Kaun's pretty much a bruiser. David Padgett is 245, Brian Butch 245, Cal's Ryan Anderson is 6'10", 235. How many 260-pounders did Davidson have? Or Tennessee?

Sure, there are great college posts at 260 but there are great college posts at 240. I have absolutely no doubt that a skilled 6'10", 240-pounder can more than hold his own in today's college-basketball world. We don't know yet if the Plumlees will be sufficiently skilled but they should be big enough.

[CDu]

I'm not sure why you'd think that. Weigh training was pretty routine in basketball by then.

I disagree completely. Watch tapes of the players from the mid 80s. They were absolutely smaller. Weight training really started to pick up in the early-to-mid 90s. That's the back end of the era that we're discussing here. Things may have hit a peak since then, but as I said, I'd be shocked if players from 1983-1993 were as big on average as they are today.



If anything the game has gotten smaller. Very few college teams play three big guys across the front any more.

Your point here isn't really relevant. Firstly, I'm talking about the matchup of 4s and 5s against other 4s and 5s and the size of individual post players, not the combined size of an entire team.

[CDu]

CDu,

Where, pray tell did you get the idea that Chris Washburn was 225? Try 255.
Brad Daugherty would slice and dice the RaSean Dickey's and Ben McCauleys of todays ACC.

I have no idea where you're coming up with 255. Here are two sites that I've referenced for my estimate of 225:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Washburn
http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=WashbCh01
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/washbch01.html

If you can enlighten me with evidence that he's 255, then we can discuss the merits of websites estimating weights of players from 20+ years ago I guess. But I'll stick with the stats I've seen on this.

And yes, Brad Daugherty would still dominate. He was also 7 feet tall with great post skill and shooting touch. And if he played today, he'd probably be 260, not 240.


Would you settle for Darrell Arthur? All 225 pounds of him? Kansas seemed to get by okay. Sasha Kaun, btw, is listed as 6' 10", 250, so we're talking ten pounds here and Kaun's pretty much a bruiser. David Padgett is 245, Brian Butch 245, Cal's Ryan Anderson is 6'10", 235. How many 260-pounders did Davidson have? Or Tennessee?

Sure, there are great college posts at 260 but there are great college posts at 240. I have absolutely no doubt that a skilled 6'10", 240-pounder can more than hold his own in today's college-basketball world. We don't know yet if the Plumlees will be sufficiently skilled but they should be big enough.

Kaun is no bruiser, and neither is Arthur. Neither is Anderson for that matter. Arthur succeeded because he had great athleticism, and because he had a big body next to him (Jackson) to do the banging. If we had Jackson to stand alongside our thinner post players, I'd be just fine. Kaun isn't really a bruiser, either. He's a decent backup big man, but he's very much a secondary player. And again, he had Jackson to do the heavy lifting if necessary. Butch is a finesse player who had a 260lb banger (Steimsma) next to him. Anderson also played the "4" next to a bigger "5".

So I'm not sure I see your point. If we had a big banger that could free our guys up to play the "4", then yes, a 6'11", 230 lb guy would do fine. Without that big banger, I can see our bigs getting tossed around, much moreso than in the golden era.

[jimsumner]

Kaun not a bruiser? I see we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

BTW, I've got a half-a-dozen reference works that show Washburn in the 250-255 range. More importantly, I saw him play and he was nowhere near 225. Believe me or not.

[slower]

I have no idea where you're coming up with 255. Here are two sites that I've referenced for my estimate of 225:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Washburn
http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=WashbCh01
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/washbch01.html

If you can enlighten me with evidence that he's 255, then we can discuss the merits of websites estimating weights of players from 20+ years ago I guess. But I'll stick with the stats I've seen on this.

Well, here's another opinion or three:

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1126915/index.htm
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1120175/index.htm
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122861/index.htm

I remember, back in the day, thinking that Washburn was an absolute beast. There's no way he was only 225.

[Karl Beem]

Well, here's another opinion or three:

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1126915/index.htm
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1120175/index.htm
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122861/index.htm

I remember, back in the day, thinking that Washburn was an absolute beast. There's no way he was only 225.

An amphibious beast.:)

[jimsumner]

http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/individual.stats/player_stats/player1952.txt

Unfortunately, my 1986 NCSU media guide is not on line.

Just curious, but if Kaun is not a brusier and Arthur is not a bruiser and Jackson is most certainly not a bruiser, then how was Kansas able to win the NCAA title, since it is evidently not possible for a team to be successful in today's NCAA without having a bruiser anchoring the middle?

[CDu]

http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/individual.stats/player_stats/player1952.txt

Unfortunately, my 1986 NCSU media guide is not on line.

Just curious, but if Kaun is not a brusier and Arthur is not a bruiser and Jackson is most certainly not a bruiser, then how was Kansas able to win the NCAA title, since it is evidently not possible for a team to be successful in today's NCAA without having a bruiser anchoring the middle?

Umm, where did you get the idea that Jackson isn't a bruiser? The guy is 6'8" 250lb. He did the "heavy lifting" inside, guarding the other team's big man. Arthur played the "4". Kaun came in off the bench. He was certainly more of a bruiser than Arthur, but he was a backup - he didn't have to be a dominant player (and he certainly wasn't). And he weighted 250lb as well.

Kansas had one true bruiser (Jackson), a finesse big man with great athleticism (Arthur), a solid backup that could shoot a little and bang a little (Kaun), and phenomenal defense on the perimeter from basically all of their guards. They won because they could match up with anybody and play any style they wanted to play (banging inside in the halfcourt, run-and-gun, shoot from the perimeter, you name it).

[Scoring Point]

I have no idea where you're coming up with 255. Here are two sites that I've referenced for my estimate of 225:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Washburn
http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=WashbCh01
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/washbch01.html

If you can enlighten me with evidence that he's 255, then we can discuss the merits of websites estimating weights of players from 20+ years ago I guess. But I'll stick with the stats I've seen on this.

And yes, Brad Daugherty would still dominate. He was also 7 feet tall with great post skill and shooting touch. And if he played today, he'd probably be 260, not 240.



Kaun is no bruiser, and neither is Arthur. Neither is Anderson for that matter. Arthur succeeded because he had great athleticism, and because he had a big body next to him (Jackson) to do the banging. If we had Jackson to stand alongside our thinner post players, I'd be just fine. Kaun isn't really a bruiser, either. He's a decent backup big man, but he's very much a secondary player. And again, he had Jackson to do the heavy lifting if necessary. Butch is a finesse player who had a 260lb banger (Steimsma) next to him. Anderson also played the "4" next to a bigger "5".

So I'm not sure I see your point. If we had a big banger that could free our guys up to play the "4", then yes, a 6'11", 230 lb guy would do fine. Without that big banger, I can see our bigs getting tossed around, much moreso than in the golden era.

As noted in the SI articles, and as anyone who actually saw Chris Washburn play for State would tell you, the guy was definitely 250+ as a collegian. He probably hasn't weighed 225 since junior high.

Also, I guess you didn't watch Wisco very much this year. Steimsma only averaged 11 or so mpg, primarily as Butch's backup. Butch started at center, generally playing alongside a pair of guys - Landry and Krabbenhoft - in the 6'7" 220 range.

[dkbaseball]

I Butch is a finesse player who had a 260lb banger (Steimsma) next to him.

This one won't work as an example. Butch and Steimsma started together a handful of games at the beginning of the season while Michael Flowers was rounding back into shape, but for the season I don't think they averaged playing together more than about a minute or two a game. Steimsma was Butch's backup most of the season and didn't play more than 8-10 minutes a game, sometimes far less. Butch is a good counter example to your point. He is indeed a finesse player whose body never responded much to weight training and they finally just took 20 lbs off of him for his senior year after spending his first four years trying to put it on him, but he was a very effective rebounder for Wisconsin because of technique, positioning and pure height.

As to how widespread weightlifting was in college basketball prior to the '90s, it depended on the coach. Bobby Knight never got with it, and I think that's one reason he started to win a little less. But strength training of some sort has always been a consideration. Duke never had a better banger than Mike Lewis in the late '60s. Alan Shaw, '73, may have been as strong in the weight room as any Duke big man (or at least I remember him curling freakish amounts). Whatever merit there may be to your point that big men spend more time in the weight room these days, I think it is offset simply by the fact that the best big men stayed in school four years back then, getting stronger and more effective in their technique. I honestly don't see any more strength in today's game, but maybe I'm not remembering clearly enough.

[CDu]

As noted in the SI articles, and as anyone who actually saw Chris Washburn play for State would tell you, the guy was definitely 250+ as a collegian. He probably hasn't weighed 225 since junior high.

Also, I guess you didn't watch Wisco very much this year. Steimsma only averaged 11 or so mpg, primarily as Butch's backup. Butch started at center, generally playing alongside a pair of guys - Landry and Krabbenhoft - in the 6'7" 220 range.

My statement was that the average post player is 10-15 pounds heavier (and thus stronger) today than 15-25 years ago. So even if Washburn was a legit 250+ (and it's certainly possible that the websites I checked got it wrong) that doesn't change my view on the matter.

And you're right - I didn't watch much of Wisconsin basketball this year. And I'd again say that pointing out one example on a team that wasn't that great (they played in a very watered-down Big Ten and got trounced by us) doesn't disprove my argument at all that 6'11" 230 isn't the same today as it was 15-25 years ago.

[arnie]

As noted in the SI articles, and as anyone who actually saw Chris Washburn play for State would tell you, the guy was definitely 250+ as a collegian. He probably hasn't weighed 225 since junior high.

Also, I guess you didn't watch Wisco very much this year. Steimsma only averaged 11 or so mpg, primarily as Butch's backup. Butch started at center, generally playing alongside a pair of guys - Landry and Krabbenhoft - in the 6'7" 220 range.

Because I am a complete loser, I have kept all the Street and Smith's publications and Parade AA High School lists since the 70's. Washburn is listed as 6-11, 245 pounds in the 84-84 SS yearbook prior to his senior year of high school. He was certainly that heavy or heavier at UNCR.

[Festus13]

http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/individual.stats/player_stats/player1952.txt

Unfortunately, my 1986 NCSU media guide is not on line.

Just curious, but if Kaun is not a brusier and Arthur is not a bruiser and Jackson is most certainly not a bruiser, then how was Kansas able to win the NCAA title, since it is evidently not possible for a team to be successful in today's NCAA without having a bruiser anchoring the middle?

I don't know why anyone would even talk about this loser (Washburn, as I remember, was the NCS player caught stealing underwear or something similar), but my ACC Basketball Handbook of '85-'86 lists him at 6'11" and 253 lbs. (sophmore).

[jimsumner]

We're talking about Washburn because he was effectively defended by much smaller Duke players in 1986, including Mark Alarie, Jay Bilas, and Danny Ferry, which seemed relevant to the topic at hand.

Washburn was an extradordinarily gifted basketball talent. He missed much of his freshman season because of an on-campus theft of stereo equipment. He played well enough as a sophomore to be drafted third, after Daugherty and Bias. He displayed more of a penchant for drugs than hoops in the pros and didn't last long.

And no, he wasn't much of a student and most likely never would have been near a college classroom were it not for the peculiar amateur sports system we've developed in this country.

[kramerbr]

I don't think this puffing out the chest match has much to do with 2009 recruiting...

One person thinks players are bigger now, another doesn't think so. Is anyone really going to change the other person's mind?

[gvtucker]

This one won't work as an example. Butch and Steimsma started together a handful of games at the beginning of the season while Michael Flowers was rounding back into shape, but for the season I don't think they averaged playing together more than about a minute or two a game. Steimsma was Butch's backup most of the season and didn't play more than 8-10 minutes a game, sometimes far less. Butch is a good counter example to your point. He is indeed a finesse player whose body never responded much to weight training and they finally just took 20 lbs off of him for his senior year after spending his first four years trying to put it on him, but he was a very effective rebounder for Wisconsin because of technique, positioning and pure height.

As to how widespread weightlifting was in college basketball prior to the '90s, it depended on the coach. Bobby Knight never got with it, and I think that's one reason he started to win a little less. But strength training of some sort has always been a consideration. Duke never had a better banger than Mike Lewis in the late '60s. Alan Shaw, '73, may have been as strong in the weight room as any Duke big man (or at least I remember him curling freakish amounts). Whatever merit there may be to your point that big men spend more time in the weight room these days, I think it is offset simply by the fact that the best big men stayed in school four years back then, getting stronger and more effective in their technique. I honestly don't see any more strength in today's game, but maybe I'm not remembering clearly enough.

All I know is that weightlifting was a regular part of Coach K's conditioning routine when he came to Duke in 1980. And it was also a regular part of the conditioning for Dean Smith's UNC team in 1980. It was distinct impression that this was standard practice throughout college basketball at the time.

[dkbaseball]

All I know is that weightlifting was a regular part of Coach K's conditioning routine when he came to Duke in 1980. And it was also a regular part of the conditioning for Dean Smith's UNC team in 1980. It was distinct impression that this was standard practice throughout college basketball at the time.

There you have it, CDu. From someone who played in the Duke program in the '80s. My recollection certainly is that weight training was common in basketball by the time of the nautilus vogue in the mid '70s. I'm certain it was in the NBA. I can remember Elvin Hayes doing some monstrous total on the leg extension machine circa 1978.

To the kramer: This discussion is directly related to how Duke recruits in 2009, the particular question being: Can Duke get by now with bigs such as the Plumlees who don't appear likely to be dominant physically, but with proper technique might be as effective as similar Duke big men in the '80s, e.g., Alarie, Bilas and Ferry?

[topps coach]

As a golden I remember reading either a SI or Sport magazine article in 1967 which stated that Bobby Verga worked out extensively with weights in order to improve his vertical. I was a college athelete in the early seventies and we started an extensive weight program in our freshman year. Weight training has been prevalent in college sports for at least thirty five years.

[arnie]

There you have it, CDu. From someone who played in the Duke program in the '80s. My recollection certainly is that weight training was common in basketball by the time of the nautilus vogue in the mid '70s. I'm certain it was in the NBA. I can remember Elvin Hayes doing some monstrous total on the leg extension machine circa 1978.

To the kramer: This discussion is directly related to how Duke recruits in 2009, the particular question being: Can Duke get by now with bigs such as the Plumlees who don't appear likely to be dominant physically, but with proper technique might be as effective as similar Duke big men in the '80s, e.g., Alarie, Bilas and Ferry?

I actually think it's praying for a miracle to think that the Plumlee's will be anywhere close to Ferry or Alarie. There is a reason they are not as highly touted and either one could have the same impact as Horvath or Buckley. Hopefully, we will get some real production from them, but don't expect a miracle here.

[Ignatius07]

Would it be possible for a mod to move the weight training discussion to a different threat? I realize it is related to 2009 recruiting, but it is a bit tangential considering the previous posts.

[Scoring Point]

My statement was that the average post player is 10-15 pounds heavier (and thus stronger) today than 15-25 years ago. So even if Washburn was a legit 250+ (and it's certainly possible that the websites I checked got it wrong) that doesn't change my view on the matter.

And you're right - I didn't watch much of Wisconsin basketball this year. And I'd again say that pointing out one example on a team that wasn't that great (they played in a very watered-down Big Ten and got trounced by us) doesn't disprove my argument at all that 6'11" 230 isn't the same today as it was 15-25 years ago.

I don't want to get into a pissing match with you on this, because your posts are generally thoughtful and often insightful. But I think you are really oversimplifying this a bit, mainly by assuming that 10-15 pounds heavier automatically equals stronger. I don't dispute players today are heavier on average. But I would say that weightlifting is not the only, or even the primary reason (as others have since posted, weight training has been a part of college hoops conditioning for some time, now). As much is probably explained by lifestyle differences - Americans in general are heavier/fatter than they were 20 years ago, and the kids who play college hoops these days have usually spent a ton of time on the road with the AAU circuit, with a lot of fast food, pizza, Big Gulps and Red Bulls consumed and video games played in their spare time. Also, FWIW, there is also a whole strain of training that has developed around building strength without adding bulk - just look at Gerald this year versus last, or Hansbrough for that matter.

It also goes without saying that strength is only part of the package for any post player. You also have to consider length, mobility, skills, jumping ability and intensity/intangibles, among others. It seems to me that strength is the only dimension in which Miles MAY be considered below average; it sounds as though he may be above average in many others, most of which would be harder to change than his strength.

[El_Diablo]

Kentucky snags Hood....

http://kentucky.scout.com/2/753198.html

[Bluedawg]

I realize everyone is supposed to be "giddy" over the hiring of Coach James, and I do think he will do a great job and fill a need, but i also have some concerns.

The majority opinion on this board seems to be that the measure of a head coach is recruiting. I found this in today's N&O:


James joins the staff during a transition period. Krzyzewski, Collins and Wojciechowski are completing a three-year commitment with USA Basketball.

Because James will be available to recruit and travel, he'll be available to cover a late July evaluation period that the others will miss as they head to the 2008 Summer Olympics in Beijing, China.

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/1065021.html

Here we have an unexperienced coach evaluating talent for a team as elite as Duke. Does anyone know if he has any experience in evaluating talent? Shouldn't he be under the tutelage of Coaches Collins or Wojciechowski before going out on his own?

[Duke09]

I'm not worried about his evaluating skills, just because it isn't a one man thing. I'd be more worried about how polished his pitch is to recruits and parents. Then again, I'm sure K knows what he is doing

[kramerbr]

I realize everyone is supposed to be "giddy" over the hiring of Coach James, and I do think he will do a great job and fill a need, but i also have some concerns.

The majority opinion on this board seems to be that the measure of a head coach is recruiting. I found this in today's N&O:



Here we have an unexperienced coach evaluating talent for a team as elite as Duke. Does anyone know if he has any experience in evaluating talent? Shouldn't he be under the tutelage of Coaches Collins or Wojciechowski before going out on his own?

Coach K isn't going to delegate any more power than he thinks James can handle. He is most likely going to watch some AAU games and camps that have Duke prospects participating in.

Can we please have a little faith in the HOF coach?

[BD80]

Here we have an unexperienced coach evaluating talent for a team as elite as Duke. Does anyone know if he has any experience in evaluating talent? Shouldn't he be under the tutelage of Coaches Collins or Wojciechowski before going out on his own?

I don't believe Duke makes an offer until Coach K see the player in action in person. Coach K is the "closer".

Nate will be phenomenal in the initial part of recruiting, developing a relationship with the recruit. Watch his press conference if you have forgotten how engaging he is. He is cocky and self-deprecating in the same breath. He has instant credibility and fire and intensity, and yet he is laid back. I can see a bunch of recruits and other coaches gathering around just to listen to Nate talk. With his size and build and demeanor, recruits will know he is in the building. Parents are going to immediately sense their kids will be safe in Nate's care. Doors will open at his mere approach .... sorry, I do get a might carried away.

[jimsumner]

Duke press release on Plumlee

"Miles Plumlee Signs Financial Aid Agreement With Duke

DURHAM, N.C. – The Duke men’s basketball team added another member to its 2008 signing class when Miles Plumlee signed a financial aid agreement to play for the Blue Devils next season. Plumlee originally signed a national letter of intent with Stanford but asked for and was granted his release after Trent Johnson left Stanford to take the head coaching job at LSU in early April. Duke received the paperwork to make the announcement official on Thursday.

“We are fortunate to land a player of Miles’ caliber this late in the recruiting process,” said head coach Mike Krzyzewski. “He is a versatile player that continues to grow and mature physically. Miles gives us another skilled big man that can be an impact player of both ends of the floor.”

Plumlee, a 6’10”, 230-pound power forward from Christ School in Arden, N.C., joins Elliot Williams and Olek Czyz as incoming freshmen for Duke. Plumlee averaged 15.8 points, 6.9 rebounds and 2.5 blocks while leading Christ School to its second straight NCISAA State Championship as a senior. The Greenies went 34-2 on the season and defeated Greensboro Day 50-41 in the state finals. Plumlee was named to the NCISAA 3A All-State team and was a All-Western North Carolina first team selection by the Asheville Citizen-Times for the second straight season.

Originally from Warsaw, Ind., Plumlee started prep school at Christ School in 2006-07. He guided the Greenies to a pair of state championships and a 63-6 overall record in two seasons. He was ranked as the No. 17 power forward in the 2008 class by scout.com and No. 58 overall. ESPN.com rated him No. 22 among power forwards and the 68th best player in the country. Rivals.com listed him the No. 29 power forward and No. 101 overall prospect."

[Bob Green]

Here we have an unexperienced coach evaluating talent for a team as elite as Duke. Does anyone know if he has any experience in evaluating talent?

You should listen to the interview from WRAL that is linked on the front page. Coach James participated in the summer camps all four years of high school and all five years at Duke. He has been mentored by some of the best in the business at evaluating talent.

[Bluedog]

Duke press release on Plumlee

"Miles Plumlee Signs Financial Aid Agreement With Duke

DURHAM, N.C. – The Duke men’s basketball team added another member to its 2008 signing class when Miles Plumlee signed a financial aid agreement to play for the Blue Devils next season.""

Sorry to ask a stupid question, but I have never heard of a recruit signing a "financial aid agreement." Is this just because he had rescinded a LOI, so he couldn't sign another one? Or it's too late to sign a LOI now? "Financial aid" makes it sound like he's getting need-based aid instead of a basketball scholarship, but obviously that's not the case. Seems like weird terminology to me....

[El_Diablo]

Sorry to ask a stupid question, but I have never heard of a recruit signing a "financial aid agreement." Is this just because he had rescinded a LOI, so he couldn't sign another one? Or it's too late to sign a LOI now? "Financial aid" makes it sound like he's getting need-based aid instead of a basketball scholarship, but obviously that's not the case. Seems like weird terminology to me....

I think all scholarship players sign a financial aid agreement the summer before matriculating.

[sagegrouse]

I
Here we have an unexperienced coach evaluating talent for a team as elite as Duke. Does anyone know if he has any experience in evaluating talent? Shouldn't he be under the tutelage of Coaches Collins or Wojciechowski before going out on his own?

I don't want to be a complete toady for our HOF coach, but I really do think he knows how to build a staff -- including assignment of responsibilities -- and evaluate assistants.

sagegrouse

[JasonEvans]

The majority opinion on this board seems to be that the measure of a head coach is recruiting.

Ummm, I am not sure I know anyone who thinks the measure of a head coach is recruiting. Is there anyone on this board who thinks recruiting is the most important part of being a head coach? Sure, it matters, perhaps even matters a lot, but there are a heck of a lot of coaches who were great recruiters but lousy at all other aspects of the game who are currently unemployed.

Put another way-- would you want Bobby Cremins or Pete Carril to be your head coach?

--Jason "the notion that Nate is running all our recruiting effforts this summer seems ludicrous to me" Evans

[Indoor66]

Ummm, I am not sure I know anyone who thinks the measure of a head coach is recruiting. Is there anyone on this board who thinks recruiting is the most important part of being a head coach? Sure, it matters, perhaps even matters a lot, but there are a heck of a lot of coaches who were great recruiters but lousy at all other aspects of the game who are currently unemployed.

Put another way-- would you want Bobby Cremins or Pete Carril to be your head coach?

--Jason "the notion that Nate is running all our recruiting effforts this summer seems ludicrous to me" Evans

Actually, Pete Carril had a pretty good run as a game coach. He retired in 1996 at age 66.

"One of the most successful collegiate basketball coaches in the history of the game, Carril is known for coaching Princeton University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_University) between 1967 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967) and 1996 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996), where he compiled a 514-261 (.658 winning percentage) record as the best record of any coach in Ivy League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League) basketball history."

"His career collegiate coaching record, including one season at Lehigh, was 525-273. He was enshrined in the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball_Hall_of_Fame) in 1997, following his retirement from Princeton."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Carril

[Jumbo]

Actually, Pete Carril had a pretty good run as a game coach. He retired in 1996 at age 66.

"One of the most successful collegiate basketball coaches in the history of the game, Carril is known for coaching Princeton University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_University) between 1967 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967) and 1996 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996), where he compiled a 514-261 (.658 winning percentage) record as the best record of any coach in Ivy League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League) basketball history."

"His career collegiate coaching record, including one season at Lehigh, was 525-273. He was enshrined in the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball_Hall_of_Fame) in 1997, following his retirement from Princeton."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Carril

That's exactly what Jason was saying. Cremins was the recruiter. Carril was the game coach.

[yancem]

What in the world is going on with the recruiting ranking for the '09 class? I just looked at Rivals updated rankings:

http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/viewrank.asp?SID=910&Year=2009&ra_key=1642

and they have dropped Erik Murphy down to 63, Deshawn Painter to 110 and DeShonte Riley to 111. All three were in the top 30 (the latter were top 20) last go around. Contrast that with Scout:

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&pid=88&yr=2009

who has Rile at 15 and Painter at 16 and things seem even more weird. I know that recruiting ranking are highly subjective and not always accurate but almost a 100 position difference seems rather strange to me!

As an aside, and for what its worth, Mason Plumlee is not ranked higher than both Wier twins and Murphy by both recruiting services.

[BD80]

As an aside, and for what its worth, Mason Plumlee is not ranked higher than both Wier twins and Murphy by both recruiting services.

Mason Plumlee is now ranked higher than both Wier twins and Murphy by both recruiting services. What a difference a letter can make.

Big grain of salt - Rivals lists Czyz at 113, and 2008 isn't a great class. Scouting services are most important to agents in convincing potential clients to forgo college eligibility. Otherwise, useless.

Now, when the reports from summer pick-up games start rolling in, we can plan the jersey retirement ceremonies :D

[Bluedawg]

Ummm, I am not sure I know anyone who thinks the measure of a head coach is recruiting. Is there anyone on this board who thinks recruiting is the most important part of being a head coach? Sure, it matters, perhaps even matters a lot, but there are a heck of a lot of coaches who were great recruiters but lousy at all other aspects of the game who are currently unemployed.

Put another way-- would you want Bobby Cremins or Pete Carril to be your head coach?

--Jason "the notion that Nate is running all our recruiting effforts this summer seems ludicrous to me" Evans

Maybe I should have said Women's Head Coaches. After a first year that most 1st year coaches would kill for, on the women's bball threads all that I read is "yes, but can she recruit."

[yancem]

Mason Plumlee is now ranked higher than both Wier twins and Murphy by both recruiting services. What a difference a letter can make.

Yeah, I need to have a talk with my proof reader. He obviously dropped the ball on that one!

[matrix1686]

Rivals is reporting that Florida has gotten a commitment from 6'9" big man DeShawn Painter. Duke supposedly had been recruiting Painter some (not sure how much interest).

While another potential big man recruit is gone, I don't think it's a huge blow. Painter seemed really raw from what I had read and also didn't always play hard. Rivals dropped him from a 5 star to a 3 star recruit last week due to his motor. Florida is probably a better fit for him than Duke anyway as they do better work with raw athletic posts than Duke seems to do (Casey Sanders).

[SilkyJ]

Florida is probably a better fit for him than Duke anyway as they do better work with raw athletic posts than Duke seems to do (Casey Sanders).

Sheld was pretty raw when he entered and we definitely improved his footwork, post moves, and jumper...

[jimsumner]

K watched Painter quite a few times and Painter didn't play especially well in any of them. He has absolutely plumetted in the rankings, going from a consensus top-20 player to someone who has dropped out of the top 100 in some rankings.

He's got some athletic ability but he's skinny and definitely not a 5. He has not been on Duke's radar for some time now.

[matrix1686]

Even more big man recruiting news now as 6'10" DaShonte Riley has committed to Georgetown according to ESPN. Riley like Painter was a name that had been possibly mentioned as a Duke target.

Like Painter, not landing Riley is not a big blow. Riley also plummeted in the Rivals rankings much like Painter did and it was also due to his lack of a motor. Riley had a bigger frame and more physical tools than Painter but supposedly played with even less heart and energy. Last thing Duke needs is a heartless big man who plays with no energy no matter how big he is.

It will be interesting to see how Riley fits at Georgetown. I'm not sure he fits the Princeton system especially not as well as Monroe does.

Too an earlier comment about Shelden being raw. While Shelden was raw he's never been a particularly great athlete. Sanders was very very athletic and raw, but never had much strength much like DeShawn Painter. Sheld had a very solid build even in HS and I think Duke just has had a lot more success with those wide-body types like Brand, Boozer, and Sheld as opposed to raw, skinny athletes like Sanders and so far Lance Thomas.

[SilkyJ]

Too an earlier comment about Shelden being raw. While Shelden was raw he's never been a particularly great athlete. Sanders was very very athletic and raw, but never had much strength much like DeShawn Painter. Sheld had a very solid build even in HS and I think Duke just has had a lot more success with those wide-body types like Brand, Boozer, and Sheld as opposed to raw, skinny athletes like Sanders and so far Lance Thomas.

I think you're being too acute in your analysis and its leading to gaps. For one you say sheld wasn't a great athlete, but then lump him in with brand and boozer, both of whom were very athletic. Additionally, Lance is shorter than casey (6'8 vs 6'11) and does not have anywhere near the leaping ability that Casey did, though he is quick.

To say nothing of the fact that we're looking at a very small data set. Coach K et al. are pretty smart and know a thing or too about bball. I think they can develop raw talent with the best of them, period.

[matrix1686]

I think you're being too acute in your analysis and its leading to gaps. For one you say sheld wasn't a great athlete, but then lump him in with brand and boozer, both of whom were very athletic. Additionally, Lance is shorter than casey (6'8 vs 6'11) and does not have anywhere near the leaping ability that Casey did, though he is quick.

To say nothing of the fact that we're looking at a very small data set. Coach K et al. are pretty smart and know a thing or too about bball. I think they can develop raw talent with the best of them, period.

I don't agree with you all that much on the fact that Boozer and Brand are very athletic. Brand is athletic but not an elite athlete. Brand's huge wingspan and hands are really what makes him play bigger than 6'8", not necessarily his athleticism.

Boozer isn't much of an athlete at all. That was one of his biggest knocks in the NBA Draft and why he slipped. Boozer is very strong and a hard worker but his athleticism isn't all that great. That's why he doesn't block many shots and sometimes struggles with longer defenders. Boozer is a better athlete than Shel who plays very robotic.

Lance is shorter and not as great a leaper as Casey, but Lance was known as a very good athlete in HS and either he just hasn't developed or his athleticism was just overstated. It's really a combination of both.

I do agree with you in that I'm sure Coach K can develop raw talent with the best of them. But you also have to look at the fact that he has recruited many McD's all-americans and many of those kids are not very raw. Raw athletic kids are not a group Coach K has really targeted over the years especially lately, instead he has went with more proven players and not always the most athletic kids. That's not saying most of the Duke recruits can't improve or are finished products but they don't usually need to overhaul their game much which also means they are less likely to become busts. It will be interesting to see how Olek Czyk does considering he is a very, very raw athlete unlike many Duke recruits lately.

[gw67]

Defining an athlete by just his running/jumping is very limiting, IMO. For his height and weight, Williams was a very good athlete in college. Not a super jumper or the fastest player but anyone who has the combination of jumping ability, quickness and timing to be a superb shot blocker like Shel is a very good athlete. Similarly, Magic would have never won any races or jumping contests but his coordination, peripheral vision and timing made him an outstanding athlete.

gw67

[gvtucker]

I don't agree with you all that much on the fact that Boozer and Brand are very athletic. Brand is athletic but not an elite athlete. Brand's huge wingspan and hands are really what makes him play bigger than 6'8", not necessarily his athleticism.
Elton Brand was and is a freakish athlete. He was the second fastest man on Duke's team, and he was also one of the quickest. His leaping ability, while not at the level of his speed, is also very good.

Now with Boozer, I'll agree with you that he isn't a great athlete in terms of speed or leaping ability.

[matrix1686]

Defining an athlete by just his running/jumping is very limiting, IMO. For his height and weight, Williams was a very good athlete in college. Not a super jumper or the fastest player but anyone who has the combination of jumping ability, quickness and timing to be a superb shot blocker like Shel is a very good athlete. Similarly, Magic would have never won any races or jumping contests but his coordination, peripheral vision and timing made him an outstanding athlete.

gw67

I agree slightly that Williams might have been a good or decent athlete for a big man in college. Unfortunately, he certainly isn't a good athlete for a big man in the NBA though. Most of his blocks were due to excellent timing and his wingspan which I believe was 7'2".

Also I agree that defining an athlete by their running/jumping ability is limiting as there is also strength, quickness, agility, flexibility, and other things. However, timing & peripheral vision I belive have more to do with basketball IQ than athleticism.

[SilkyJ]

Elton Brand was and is a freakish athlete. He was the second fastest man on Duke's team, and he was also one of the quickest. His leaping ability, while not at the level of his speed, is also very good.

Now with Boozer, I'll agree with you that he isn't a great athlete in terms of speed or leaping ability.

Boozer and Brand are both quite athletic and Boozer was/is known for his leaping ability. He had a ridiculous vertical coming out of high school. He has shorter arms, which is why he isnt a great shot blocker.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/archive/index.php/t-35778.html

He was rated the #32 athlete overall in the pre-draft camp out of 83 (which favors guards/swingmen over big men) and had a 28.5 inch vertical

Matrix - if you dont believe both of them are very athletic, you simply dont know what you are talking about. They are all-star caliber players in the NBA, and frankly a little undersized for their position considering we have 7 footers like KG, Dirk, and Duncan playing PF. They are both world class athletes and make up for being a short with a good bball IQ and that athleticism.

[matrix1686]

Matrix - if you dont believe both of them are very athletic, you simply dont know what you are talking about. They are all-star caliber players in the NBA, and frankly a little undersized for their position considering we have 7 footers like KG, Dirk, and Duncan playing PF. They are both world class athletes and make up for being a short with a good bball IQ and that athleticism.

Both Boozer and Brand are athletic but they are not VERY athletic as you say. If you ask most people about Boozer or Brand they are not going to mention they're athleticism when talking about either one of them. They'll mention their strength, work ethic, basketball IQ, but probably not their athleticism. Neither are known for their athleticism. This goes back to the original origin of this which was saying DeShawn Painter and DaShonte Riley are raw athletes and that Duke goes for stronger, more polished big men that are not quite as athletic. Neither Boozer or Brand have ever been identified first and foremost by their athleticism like Painter or Riley are.

Now not every all-star player is a great athlete. Look at John Stockton. I mean look at that list of seven-footers you gave. Duncan is not a great athlete and is probably on the same level as Boozer and Brand. Dirk isn't exactly known for his athleticism either as it's his shooting skills that are his calling card. Garnett--well now that's an elite athlete. While everybody in the NBA is probably a "world-class athlete" considering how many people are in the world and how many actually play professional sports, it is you SilkyJ that doesn't know what they are talking about if you consider Boozer and Brand to be elite NBA athletes.

[SilkyJ]

While everybody in the NBA is probably a "world-class athlete" considering how many people are in the world and how many actually play professional sports, it is you SilkyJ that doesn't know what they are talking about if you consider Boozer and Brand to be elite NBA athletes.

I would say they are very athletic basketball players. Not elite, but definitely very athletic.



Both Boozer and Brand are athletic but they are not VERY athletic as you say. If you ask most people about Boozer or Brand they are not going to mention they're athleticism when talking about either one of them. They'll mention their strength, work ethic, basketball IQ, but probably not their athleticism. Neither are known for their athleticism.

I don't put much value in what "most people" say. I consider myself to be much smarter and know much more (particularly with regards to basketball) than "most people."

I also consider strength to be part of being an athlete/athleticism, which is the first criteria you say people would "mention" when discussing them. (incidentally, the pre-draft athlete "rankings" factor in strength as well. Their metric: # of reps of 185lbs on the bench press)

we're also getting into seriously silly semantics here. what defines "athletic" vs "pretty athletic" vs. "very athletic" etc. etc.

[kramerbr]

^^^^^^^All irrelevant to 2009 recruiting.

[matrix1686]

I would say they are very athletic basketball players. Not elite, but definitely very athletic.

I also consider strength to be part of being an athlete/athleticism, which is the first criteria you say people would "mention" when discussing them. (incidentally, the pre-draft athlete "rankings" factor in strength as well. Their metric: # of reps of 185lbs on the bench press)

we're also getting into seriously silly semantics here. what defines "athletic" vs "pretty athletic" vs. "very athletic" etc. etc.

I agree that strength definitely factors in and that Boozer, Brand, and Shel are probably among the strongest big men in the league. Anyway, I also definitely agree that we are getting into silly semantics, and that this has evolved into nothing about 2009 recruiting. Finally, I think we can all agree that the most elite athlete to hit the NBA will be the Shelden Williams/Candice Parker baby.

[El_Diablo]

He was rated the #32 athlete overall in the pre-draft camp out of 83 (which favors guards/swingmen over big men) and had a 28.5 inch vertical.

28.5 inches isn't that high for a basketball player.

And the athleticism tests don't really "favor" guards/swingmen...5 out of the top 6 listed players are big men (Nene-2, Wilcox-5, Stoudemire-12, Humphrey-13, Haislip-17). Jay Williams (#7) is the only guard listed in the top 20.

Maybe all the unlisted players were actually guards/swingmen...I don't know.

[mgtr]

^^^^^^^All irrelevant to 2009 recruiting.

It appears that you didn't get through to a lot of people. Probably dealing here with a bunch of UNC dropouts.

[mgtr]

Now actually speaking about 2009 recruiting, we have one M. Plumlee in the big (dark blue) truck. What others are realistically in the sights of Coach K and his team? It seems as if names which have been mentioned from time to time are now declaring for other schools, while we say ahhh, we didin't want them anyway. Any sense of who we really do want (other than another Kareem or Bill Walton)?
It is my understanding that there is yet another Plumlee on the horizon -- one Marshall, who is a high school freshman? Is that right? I assume we are all over that guy. How good is he? And is there a Junior High Schooler by the name of Michael Plumlee who we are watching? Just kidding, I made that up. Apparently an infinite supply of Plumlees woudl be a good thing.

With all the Plumlee hype, where does that leave Zoubek? I mean seriously, here is a very bright kid who has some basketball skills, but has been limited by foot injuries. He should, by all rights, start blooming this upcoming (Junior) year. What are the odds of this happening. I would love to see it.

[roywhite]

2009 recruiting---with 12 scholarship players this year and a good distribution by class and position, seems to me there is no one position that presents a glaring need. To join Mason Plumlee in this class, the main targets are Leslie McDonald (a friend of Elliot Williams from Tennessee, and about the same size) and Kenny Boynton, a shoot-and-pass PG/WG from Florida, who has drawn some comparisons to our Jason Williams.

On the wish list would be Derrick Favors, a dominating 6'9" big man from Atlanta, who is rated #1 in the class and considered a one-and-done player, and a longshot for Duke. And perhaps Jamil Wilson, a versatile 6'7" player from Wisconsin, also probably a longshot. With 12 scholarships currently and only 2 seniors, we may have to be careful about the 13 scholarship limit, but who knows for sure if all the current underclassmen will return the following year.

Zoubs---hope he is healthy; I think he'll get every opportunity to be our #1 inside guy, but there'll be competition from Lance Thomas and freshmen Czyz and Miles Plumlee for playing time.

[roywhite]

The updated ranking of 2009 basketball recruits by scout.com is out (Scout.com for basketball and rivals.com for football are preferred sources for recruiting geeks IMO)

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&pid=88&yr=2009

Of Duke targets (rank in the entire class):

Derrick Favors #1
Kenny Boynton #8
Mason Plumlee #15 (he has risen majorly over last year)
Jamil Wilson #16
Leslie McDonald #27


With Plumlee in hand, and good contacts with some others, this could be (another) strong recruiting year for Coach K and the Blue Devils. We'll see how it plays out.

[Classof06]

The updated ranking of 2009 basketball recruits by scout.com is out (Scout.com for basketball and rivals.com for football are preferred sources for recruiting geeks IMO)

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&pid=88&yr=2009

Of Duke targets (rank in the entire class):

Derrick Favors #1
Kenny Boynton #8
Mason Plumlee #15 (he has risen majorly over last year)
Jamil Wilson #16
Leslie McDonald #27


With Plumlee in hand, and good contacts with some others, this could be (another) strong recruiting year for Coach K and the Blue Devils. We'll see how it plays out.

I agree. K has a solid cornerstone to the class in MP2 (the only way I can distinguish--I forget which one's Mason and which one's Miles) and I think/hope landing him will set the tone for the class. IMO, this has a chance to be Duke's best recruiting class in quite some time (at least the past few years). The '08 class is certainly solid, even moreso with the addition of MP1 but in MP2, it appears we already have a player unlike anyone in the '08 class.

It seems like Boynton and McDonald are giving us serious consideration, and even if we don't land either, our backcourt is set for at least the next two seasons, probably even 3 (with Nolan and EW). Duke's positioned very well for the future and if done right, the '09 class could be a thing of beauty.

[kramerbr]

www.nj.com/rutgers/ledger/inde....xml&coll=1

This would of been HUGE had he come to Duke. Either way him and Mike Rosario should help out the Rutgers basketball program.

Miles probably fits our system better anyways. Everything seems to work out in the long run.

[SilkyJ]

www.nj.com/rutgers/ledger/inde....xml&coll=1

This would of been HUGE had he come to Duke. Either way him and Mike Rosario should help out the Rutgers basketball program.

Miles probably fits our system better anyways. Everything seems to work out in the long run.

link won't work for me cause of the "...." in the middle, presumably. can you post or PM the full link?

[Double DD]

link won't work for me cause of the "...." in the middle, presumably. can you post or PM the full link?

I haven't read the article, but I would make an educated guess that it likely has to do with Echenique moving from a 2009 recruit into the 2008 class.

[Kfanarmy]

Perhaps I'm suspicious by nature, but discovering college transferrable credits once serious recruiting begins just smells fishy...especially given the likelihood of someone checking Venezuelan school records and qualifications...

http://www.nj.com/rutgers/ledger/

[Blueequalslife23]

Is Duke Kenny Boynton front runner? Any Leslie Mcdonald updates? If Duke misses out on either of these two does anybody know the next person in line for an offer?

[kramerbr]

Is Duke Kenny Boynton front runner? Any Leslie Mcdonald updates? If Duke misses out on either of these two does anybody know the next person in line for an offer?

Two Possibilities
Jamil Wilson
Terrell Vinson

[dkbaseball]

Is Duke Kenny Boynton front runner? Any Leslie Mcdonald updates? If Duke misses out on either of these two does anybody know the next person in line for an offer?

Nick Russell of Texas is supposed to be the backup wing prospect if Duke misses on these two. Some recruiting guru types think he's better than McDonald.

[watzone]

Russell had some good things to say about Duke

http://myblogdevils.eponym.com/blog/_archives/2008/5/26/3713378.html

[kramerbr]

Was Mason offered after Echenique picked Rutgers or before? It he was offered before then does this mean we still have a scholarsip that could be offered even with the offers out to Boynton and McDonald?

I believe Miles will be getting King's scholarship....

[SilkyJ]

Was Mason offered after Echenique picked Rutgers or before? It he was offered before then does this mean we still have a scholarsip that could be offered even with the offers out to Boynton and McDonald?

I believe Miles will be getting King's scholarship....

No we only have 3 scholarships available for that class, including the one Plumlee has snagged, so we have 2 left.

Scholarship players that we will have to start '09-'10 season (you are allowed 13 and this assumes that everyone stays)


Pocious
Thomas
Zoubek
Scheyer
Henderson
Singler
Smith
Williams
Czyz
Miles Plumlee
Mason Plumlee*
BLANK (boynton hopefully)
BLANK (mcdonlad hopefully)


*Verbal commit (can't sign LOI til fall)

[dukeblue1215]

is there any chance at all we land derrick favors?

[SilkyJ]

I think the general consensus is that we are in the running but don't get your hopes up.

(of course, that is sort of the mentality with most top recruits, but I guess here you REALLY shouldn't get your hopes up, if that makes sense...)

[JasonEvans]

No we only have 3 scholarships available for that class, including the one Plumlee has snagged, so we have 2 left.

Scholarship players that we will have to start '09-'10 season (you are allowed 13 and this assumes that everyone stays)


Pocious
Thomas
Zoubek
Scheyer
Henderson
Singler
Smith
Williams
Czyz
Miles Plumlee
Mason Plumlee*
BLANK (boynton hopefully)
BLANK (mcdonlad hopefully)


*Verbal commit (can't sign LOI til fall)

While your numbers are correct, I think Duke would have a scholarship for another player in the 2009 class. Most folks think there will be some attrition from the projected 2009 roster -- perhaps a transfer or someone going pro. Itr is also possible that Pocius could choose to leave Duke to pursue a pro career in Europe.

No one knows what will happen, but I believe the Duke staff is operating under the assumption that we will have 4 scholarships to give to members of the 2009 class.

--Jason "I think we are targetting another big man with that 4th scholarship too, but I am no recruiting guru" Evans

[SilkyJ]

--Jason "I think we are targetting another big man with that 4th scholarship too, but I am no recruiting guru" Evans

I sure hope so. But then again, unless Marty goes to Europe, I hope we DON'T have that 4th scholarship available because that probably means Gerald or Kyle turn pro. (transfer is another fairly likely option too, I guess)

[Ignatius07]

I sure hope so. But then again, unless Marty goes to Europe, I hope we DON'T have that 4th scholarship available because that probably means Greg or Kyle turn pro. (transfer is another fairly likely option too, I guess)

I don't think we have to worry about Greg turning pro! Gerald, on the other hand...

Just kidding, I know that's what you meant. I do hope Duke at least offers four slots, whether or not they are all taken. We shouldn't lower our standards just to fill the slots, that is. If we were to land Boynton and McDonald (or other guards), I hope we go after a bigger (6'6"+) guy to complement Mason Plumlee in the class.

[SilkyJ]

I don't think we have to worry about Greg turning pro! Gerald, on the other hand...

Just kidding, I know that's what you meant. I do hope Duke at least offers four slots, whether or not they are all taken. We shouldn't lower our standards just to fill the slots, that is. If we were to land Boynton and McDonald (or other guards), I hope we go after a bigger (6'6"+) guy to complement Mason Plumlee in the class.

Thanks for the correction. Total brain fart.

Its my understanding that Duke doesn't offer more slots than it has at the time, meaning we wouldn't offer 4 kids and "hope" one slot opens up. Then again, we've been adjusting our approach to recruiting in recent years, primarily due to types of attrition other than graduation (a relatively new phenomena for us) so that would seem like a logical tweak.

[Ignatius07]

Thanks for the correction. Total brain fart.

Its my understanding that Duke doesn't offer more slots than it has at the time, meaning we wouldn't offer 4 kids and "hope" one slot opens up. Then again, we've been adjusting our approach to recruiting in recent years, primarily due to types of attrition other than graduation (a relatively new phenomena for us) so that would seem like a logical tweak.

But what if the staff knew somebody (most likely person is probably Gerald) was going to go pro no matter what after this year? Add to that the annual potential that a team with top talent filled almost to capacity will endure attrition through early-entry and transfer. Supposedly McRoberts told the coaches prior to his sophomore year that it was his last season at Duke, and why we went after Patterson so hard.

Personally I would be very surprised - given the fact that we will have 12 recruited scholarship players next year - to see no turnover due to transfer or early-entry from 08/09 to 09/10.

[El_Diablo]

Its my understanding that Duke doesn't offer more slots than it has at the time, meaning we wouldn't offer 4 kids and "hope" one slot opens up.

Didn't we do that for 2002-2003? Lee Melchionni paid his way for his freshman year before the scholarship opened up.

[Bob Green]

Didn't we do that for 2002-2003? Lee Melchionni paid his way for his freshman year before the scholarship opened up.

The situation with Lee is completely different than offering more scholarships than are available. With Lee, the staff knew his family was capable of paying the expenses so a deal was brokered up front. Gary M. would foot the bill freshman year with a guaranteed scholarship covering the last three years. What is being discussed here is offering more than are available with those players being offered understanding that it is first come first served. You snooze you lose. The two scenarios are apples and oranges.

[Blueequalslife23]

seems as if Leslie Mcdonald is EAGER for a visit to only North Carolina this probably means their his top choice. Does anybody know how many scholarships they have left i can't tell consider old Roy likes handing out offers like candy.

[CMS2478]

I am reading a lot of stuff that is saying that Kenny's visit with UF went good and that Billy D. and the gators are coming on strong in the recruitment of Boynton. Do you guys see Florida as a real possibility for Kenny. :confused:

[dukeballer2294]

I am reading a lot of stuff that is saying that Kenny's visit with UF went good and that Billy D. and the gators are coming on strong in the recruitment of Boynton. Do you guys see Florida as a real possibility for Kenny. :confused:

i dont becasue from wat ive heard it doesnt seem like he is a 1 and done guy which would mean he would want to go with a school with a good chance to win. also if we does this could totally skrew up our recruting the next couple of years becasue if he goes to florida and mcdonald goes to unc then we lose our two top prospects left for 09 and we would prbabaly lose our #1 for 2010 brandon knight becasue he wants to play with boynton

[mgtr]

dukeballer2294-
Ar yu by eny chance a florida gradat? Sertinly not Duke!

[kramerbr]

i dont becasue from wat ive heard it doesnt seem like he is a 1 and done guy which would mean he would want to go with a school with a good chance to win. also if we does this could totally skrew up our recruting the next couple of years becasue if he goes to florida and mcdonald goes to unc then we lose our two top prospects left for 09 and we would prbabaly lose our #1 for 2010 brandon knight becasue he wants to play with boynton

It would be super if anyone could provide a link that states where Knight wants to play college ball with Boynton. I just don't buy it.

[Ignatius07]

i dont becasue from wat ive heard it doesnt seem like he is a 1 and done guy which would mean he would want to go with a school with a good chance to win. also if we does this could totally skrew up our recruting the next couple of years becasue if he goes to florida and mcdonald goes to unc then we lose our two top prospects left for 09 and we would prbabaly lose our #1 for 2010 brandon knight becasue he wants to play with boynton

What makes you think Boynton wants to play with Knight or vice versa? I've read nothing to that effect. Besides, even when people do say those things (aka the package deal), they rarely happen, unless those people are brothers.

[devildeac]

What makes you think Boynton wants to play with Knight or vice versa? I've read nothing to that effect. Besides, even when people do say those things (aka the package deal), they rarely happen, unless those people are brothers.

And hopefully, that trend will continue 2-3 years from now;):D

[SilkyJ]

But what if the staff knew somebody (most likely person is probably Gerald) was going to go pro no matter what after this year? Add to that the annual potential that a team with top talent filled almost to capacity will endure attrition through early-entry and transfer. Supposedly McRoberts told the coaches prior to his sophomore year that it was his last season at Duke, and why we went after Patterson so hard.


So if the mcbob case repeated itself (i.e. Gerald TOLD the staff he was going pro this year no matter what) then yes, I could see us offering that 4th spot even though its possible gerald could get hurt or have a bad year and change his mind.

The issue, I believe, is one of "principle" for Coach K in that he's not going to offer a kid and then rescind later even if the kid "took too long" or whatever. That just goes against K's values. So in the above case, he wouldn't be doing anything against those values b/c he "knows" that gerald is going pro and knows that the 4th scholarship is available. If unforseen circumstances arise, like an injury, well then he'll cross that bridge when he comes to it...

To be honest I just don't know, I'm just guessing based the kind of man Krzyzewski is.


dukeballer2294-
Ar yu by eny chance a florida gradat? Sertinly not Duke!

haha. well played!

[mgtr]

Silky-
Thanks.

[dukeballer2294]

first off im a die hard duke fan and dont know anyone who went to florida and i read somewhere on scout.com that knight would take into his consideration where boynton plays next year because they are both on team breakdown now

[kydevil]

i dont becasue from wat ive heard it doesnt seem like he is a 1 and done guy which would mean he would want to go with a school with a good chance to win. also if we does this could totally skrew up our recruting the next couple of years becasue if he goes to florida and mcdonald goes to unc then we lose our two top prospects left for 09 and we would prbabaly lose our #1 for 2010 brandon knight becasue he wants to play with boynton

If Boynton is a likely one and done guy like you say then it wouldn't matter where he goes in relation to Brandon Knight seeing that Boynton would be gone the time Knight goes to school?

[dukeballer2294]

Here are some quotes saying that if boynton comes knight could come too.

"Focus on Kenny Boynton...if and when he comes to Duke, so will
Brandon Knight."

"I think Kenny is one and done but who cares. We still need him awfully bad.
K just needs to work on bringing in Brandon Knight right after him."

Im not saying its true (i hope it is) but im just repeating wat i heard

[kydevil]

Here are some quotes saying that if boynton comes knight could come too.

"Focus on Kenny Boynton...if and when he comes to Duke, so will
Brandon Knight."

"I think Kenny is one and done but who cares. We still need him awfully bad.
K just needs to work on bringing in Brandon Knight right after him."

Im not saying its true (i hope it is) but im just repeating wat i heard

Are these quotes from posters here? If so, I seem to have missed them. If not, do you have any links?

[dukeballer2294]

Are these quotes from posters here? If so, I seem to have missed them. If not, do you have any links?

no their not from posters their commetns from people on scout.com like i said i was just passing on info i didnt mean to upset so many people and i just found them by looking under forums with brandon knight on scout.com

[DukeBlood]

Here are some quotes saying that if boynton comes knight could come too.

"Focus on Kenny Boynton...if and when he comes to Duke, so will
Brandon Knight."

"I think Kenny is one and done but who cares. We still need him awfully bad.
K just needs to work on bringing in Brandon Knight right after him."

Im not saying its true (i hope it is) but im just repeating wat i heard

What?

Maybe you did read that, and honestly believe that. I haven't heard, or read anywhere about it being a packaged deal. However I wouldn't be surprised either. I wont argue this at all. Maybe its true, maybe its not.

But how does that work? Brandon Knight wants to play with Kenny Boynton you say.. But then how does that work if Kenny goes pro after one? You make no sense.

Now the part where you say "I think Kenny is a one and done but who cares".. Are you joking? Or do you seriously believe what you are saying? Have you read the articles of him saying "Academics is the most important thing". One and dones dont say that. This is a kid who goes out of his way to talk to 8-12 year olds and hangs out with them to make them feel good about them selves.

Im not sure where you are getting your sources, but its not scout.com

[dukeballer2294]

What?

Maybe you did read that, and honestly believe that. I haven't heard, or read anywhere about it being a packaged deal. However I wouldn't be surprised either. I wont argue this at all. Maybe its true, maybe its not.

But how does that work? Brandon Knight wants to play with Kenny Boynton you say.. But then how does that work if Kenny goes pro after one? You make no sense.

Now the part where you say "I think Kenny is a one and done but who cares".. Are you joking? Or do you seriously believe what you are saying? Have you read the articles of him saying "Academics is the most important thing". One and dones dont say that. This is a kid who goes out of his way to talk to 8-12 year olds and hangs out with them to make them feel good about them selves.

Im not sure where you are getting your sources, but its not scout.com

ok i didnt write this i found this and pssed it on to you guys and it isnt a package deal for sure knight could be more intrested where boynton goes

[bdh21]

Here are some quotes saying that if boynton comes knight could come too.

"Focus on Kenny Boynton...if and when he comes to Duke, so will
Brandon Knight."

"I think Kenny is one and done but who cares. We still need him awfully bad.
K just needs to work on bringing in Brandon Knight right after him."

Im not saying its true (i hope it is) but im just repeating wat i heard

The blind leading the blind...

[kramerbr]

I think what he's trying to say is that he heard it from his uncle's, cousin's, girlfriends, niece's, brother's , best friend.

If it is just hearsay or information from a forum, it is hardly credible and is basically a rumor. It would be a very interesting bit of information IF true...

[Jumbo]

ok i didnt write this i found this and pssed it on to you guys and it isnt a package deal for sure knight could be more intrested where boynton goes

If that is information from a scout.com article and you are passing it along, you are probably violating copyright law and need to stop now. If you are quoting posters on a scout.com message board, the information is meaningless. And please, please, please take the time to throw in a comma, a period or two and a few correctly spelled words. Your messages would go over much better if you put a little more thought into them before posting.

[Duke79UNLV77]

although it's not my legal specialty, i believe factual information, as opposed to writing style, etc., is not so easy to protect. for example, cnn can't have exclusive rights to the facts behind one of its stories.

[SilkyJ]

although it's not my legal specialty, i believe factual information, as opposed to writing style, etc., is not so easy to protect. for example, cnn can't have exclusive rights to the facts behind one of its stories.

i'm not a lawyer, but i did smoke the LSATs (irrelevant, I know), but I think it may be a contractual issue since you have to pay for the information and when you pay you enter into some sort of contract/agreement to not distribute the info.

And actually, I'm not sure if you are right b/c at the end of every NFL game it says any recordings or ACCOUNTS of the game cannot be distributed without the "express written consent of the NFL." So wouldn't the "account" of the game just be the "facts" of what occurred?

This is all totally off the top of my head...

silky "welcome to the offseason at DBR" j

[Duke79UNLV77]

if you can't print the facts of the game, i don't know what i've been seeing in box scores all these years. i think accounts has more to do with play-by-play and analysis.

you pay for a subscription to Newsweek or The New York Times, but that doesn't mean they have exclusive rights to facts. They make their money by being the first to print stories, having the best writing and presentation, and being referenced as sources when others also publish the information.

I'm not sure of what contracts are involved, but i think it's hard to copyright facts.

[SilkyJ]

you pay for a subscription to Newsweek or The New York Times, but that doesn't mean they have exclusive rights to facts. They make their money by being the first to print stories, having the best writing and presentation, and being referenced as sources when others also publish the information.

I'm not sure of what contracts are involved, but i think it's hard to copyright facts.

Great points.

should have been more clear on the subscription front: I'm thinking of the "terms and conditions" box that you check. I could easily imagine them putting some clause in there that says "cannot distribute any info garnered through the premium sections of the website, etc. etc"