Go to hole, Grayson, go to the hole

[SilkyJ]

I'm not one to give Seth Greenberg props, but let's face it: Grayson has not been himself this year. We can speculate on what's causing it: is the tripping stuff in his head? it probably was for a while. Is moving to the point affecting his play? Changing positions to become Coach K's PG is no small task. Lack of continuity for the team? changing pieces/lineups doesn't make it easier.

But what's really going on? Grayson has become a jump shooter and has lost his driving ability, which made him much more dangerous last year:

- In 2016 42% of his FGA were 3 pointers versus 58% 2 pointers
- In 2017 that ratio has really flipped: he's shooting 60% of his shots from 3 and 40% from 2 pt land

To make matters worse, his 3 point shooting has been very mediocre: he's only shooting 34% from 3 this year, versus an excellent 42% last year. (His 2 pt % has dipped a bit, but not as bad: he's shooting 48.4% from 2 this year versus 50.2% last year)

The answer would seem to be simple: drive, Grayson, drive! But in watching the games, I see defense collapsing on him, taking away driving lanes, and frankly I haven't seen enough quickness from Grayson to prove that he can penetrate consistently against good defenders. We've seen him go to the hole and overpass. We've seen him commit offensive fouls. We've seen him miss makeable layups.

In my mind, we need Grayson to become more efficient on offense to go deep in March. We have other problems to solve, including our defense, post-rotation (who is going to guard UNC's frontline tonight?? Amile and Jason will get eaten up--just watch), but getting Grayson's offense going is a piece we have to get sorted out.

In K we trust.

(BTW I could write another whole post on how we have to get Harry going and playing him 8-10mpg is limiting our ceiling, but let's go one at a time. My guess is we'll get eaten alive by UNC's bigs tonight and K will move Harry into the starting lineup shortly thereafter.)

[Edouble]

(BTW I could write another whole post on how we have to get Harry going and playing him 8-10mpg is limiting our ceiling, but let's go one at a time. My guess is we'll get eaten alive by UNC's bigs tonight and K will move Harry into the starting lineup shortly thereafter.)

Doubt it. The Duke-unc games rarely go according to script. We'll probably outrebound them while they make 20 three pointers.

[Bob Green]

Grayson has not been himself this year.

While I am not totally dismissing impacts from the tripping incident and position change, I fully believe Grayson's changed style of play has been mostly due to his injuries. He had a hurt shoulder in preseason. Then the turf toe followed by the dislocated finger. The turf toe is a type injury which has a big impact on planting and cutting plus it tends to linger.

Grayson has looked pretty good the last three games.

[Bluedog]

I think Grayson last season was looking to drive and score more. This year, he's looking to drive and kick to the open man. I agree that he should look for his shot more, but I think that's been the primary reason for the difference. He sees himself as more of a facilator and has tried to get other guys involved more.

[bluedev_92]

While I am not totally dismissing impacts from the tripping incident and position change, I fully believe Grayson's changed style of play has been mostly due to his injuries. He had a hurt shoulder in preseason. Then the turf toe followed by the dislocated finger. The turf toe is a type injury which has a big impact on planting and cutting plus it tends to linger.

Grayson has looked pretty good the last three games.

Yep - agree on all points. Turf toe can linger for a long time. Grayson's vertical is slowly coming back...

[DavidBenAkiva]

In the last 3 games, Grayson seems to have found his footing again. He's shooting well from 3 (13-29/44.8%) and handing out 4 assists per game. There were a number of instances in which his teammates failed to convert on open shots or moved in the wrong direction. His 3 turnovers a game are a little misleading. He is also getting to the free throw line, making all 14 of his attempts during this span. The free throw rate also helps to excuse the below average 40% shooting inside the arc. He's driving to score or get to the line and converting his free throws. He's playing - and behaving - in control and the team has won. I think we're going to see the real Grayson Allen tonight and hopefully for the rest of the season.

[SilkyJ]

While I am not totally dismissing impacts from the tripping incident and position change, I fully believe Grayson's changed style of play has been mostly due to his injuries. He had a hurt shoulder in preseason. Then the turf toe followed by the dislocated finger. The turf toe is a type injury which has a big impact on planting and cutting plus it tends to linger.

Grayson has looked pretty good the last three games.

I hope this is the case. 3 games is hardly a real sample though. The fact that 60% of his shots are coming from deep is concerning. He needs to stop being so one dimensional and hopefully getting healthy allows him to do that.

[UrinalCake]

I think he's been struggling to figure out how to be more of a distributor while simultaneously being aggressive in looking for his own shot. Last year he went to the hole and shot every time. This year he came into the season wanting to develop his PG skills and showcase them to the NBA, so he's been too deferential at times and passed when he needed to be more selfish. This is especially apparent in transition, when he's had some open looks that became turnovers.

I do think all the media attention plays a role too; he knows every time he goes barreling to the basket there's a potential for a scrum to result or for opponents to clobber him because they know he can't retaliate and there will probably be no foul call. But mostly I think it's him developing from a 2/3 to a 1/2.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I think he's been struggling to figure out how to be more of a distributor while simultaneously being aggressive in looking for his own shot. Last year he went to the hole and shot every time. This year he came into the season wanting to develop his PG skills and showcase them to the NBA, so he's been too deferential at times and passed when he needed to be more selfish. This is especially apparent in transition, when he's had some open looks that became turnovers.

I do think all the media attention plays a role too; he knows every time he goes barreling to the basket there's a potential for a scrum to result or for opponents to clobber him because they know he can't retaliate and there will probably be no foul call. But mostly I think it's him developing from a 2/3 to a 1/2.

The kid just needs to play on and not worry all the time about the refs or other players. He really needs to adopt Kennard's mindset, focus on his game and the next play.

He's a really good player, but he's creating much of the drama with his own actions. (Then the media over sells it).

[madscavenger]

One thing unmentioned is that Grayson needs the ball a lot to capitalize on his versatility. This year we have a more diversified offense. Luke needs his touches (and his performance more than justifies it). So does Jason. Though Jason gets his points, he takes a lot of shots to get there. When not injured Jefferson has upped his need to get the ball, as well. The team needs production from his position, and he delivers when he can get the ball. All of these players need touches and, as mentioned, as point guard Grayson is the primary distributor. Spreading things around to those who deliver has to be done, and Grayson has to be the party that makes the sacrifice. Playing point guard does not optimize his talents. Nevertheless, being blessed with several alternative sources of reliable offense requires that he share the ball a lot more than he has done in the past.

[JNort]

Playing point imo I'd why his play is suffering. Grayson like to hunt his shot and it's what makes him so good. Playing pg means he doesn't get to do that near as often since he has to try to set up his teammates instead. The solution? He can either find a balance which I don't think will be possible or we put him back in the situation he was comfortable with.

This is why I'd like to try Luke at point. Let's see if it hinders his play. If not then we now got old Grayson back plus the ever so steady Luke of this year. If Luke does worse than Grayson then go back to Grayson.

[rsvman]

Disagree. I think he's doing great, especially in the past few games.

Last year, if anything, he drove to the hole and took the shot MORE than he should have, IMO. He would go at it no matter what, sometimes to the detriment of the team. Anybody remember the Kentucky game?

This year when driving he has often kicked out to an open jump shooter and with good success. For awhile I think he was a bit too deferential, but lately he seems to be doing it just right: going to the hole when it's there, passing to the open shooter when it's not. I, for one, hope he continues to do that.

Oh, and his 3-point shooting is on the uptick, as well, now that his finger is healing up.

[MartyClark]

Yeah, I'd like to see him drive more. He's doing a good job of ringing the ball down and looking for the pass.

If he drives against Carolina, somebody needs to be back to prevent an easy fast break basket. I'll trust K with the X and O's but an unsuccessful drive by the Duke point guard could lead to easy points by Carolina.

Go Duke!

[devilsince1977]

Although Duke doesn't run a lot of P&R, they do rely on the bigs to set screens to free the wings. Last year Grayson had MP3 setting those screens. This year he has had Amile, JT, Chase, HG, and MB. None of them are nearly as good as MP3 at setting screens; or running a P&R. Marshall was also good a sealing off post defenders as they tried to get to Grayson. Amile is a good screener, but he is just not that wide. Grayson's defenders are also able to get "into his legs" more this year. Part of it is his injuries are slowing him down just enough for defenders to stay close. Considering all he has gone through, I am more than pleased with Grayson's season. Give me 5 Grayson Allens and I'll kick you butt or die trying.

[Kedsy]

I don't know, I kinda like it when he sits back and takes three-pointers, too. ;)

[jacone21]

7165

Okay bruh!
Love,
Grayson

[camion]

I don't know, I kinda like it when he sits back and takes three-pointers, too. ;)

Those threes were very dagger-like tonight. :)

[SilkyJ]

Grayson stuck to his ways (just shooting 3s) for the UNC game when 12 of his 15 shots came from 3. Fortunately, he made 7-12, maybe his best game this year (UNLV was great, but competition should matter).

Since then, he's continued to stick to his ways--actually he's taking even more of his shots from 3. Entering the UNC game 60% of his shots came from 3, now that's gone up to 63% with just 5 more games. After UNC he's gone:

Clemson: 2-10, 2-7 from 3
Virginia: 2-10, 1-6 from 3
Wake Forest: 3-8, 3-6 from 3
Syracuse: 2-11, 1-8 from 3

That's 9-39 or 23% overall, 7-27 from 3 (26%), with 69% of his shots coming from 3. Whatever he's doing, or the coaches are doing, isn't working. If he's hurt then let him get healthy. He isn't very effective right now. Hopefully this loss catalyzes a change.

BTW- he's cracked double figures once since UNC, and it was a barn burning 11 at home vs WFU...

[Reddevil]

He is only a spot up shooter at this point. They aren't even jump shots. He can barely run. His explosiveness is what makes him special. He is hurt. I know it must be frustrating for him and the staff. I do wish they would rest him.

[English]

He is only a spot up shooter at this point. They aren't even jump shots. He can barely run. His explosiveness is what makes him special. He is hurt. I know it must be frustrating for him and the staff. I do wish they would rest him.

K has been explicit that Amile & Grayson are injured, but he doesn't have the luxury to sit them down the stretch.

It's stark how Grayson's driving ability--even in transition, like last night's five gakked fast breaks in a row--has abandoned him. Wow. That was painful to watch and likely cost the team a road win. Grayson is in his own head at this point. Fundamentally, Grayson's go-to distribution method, the drive into the heart of the defense then throw a no-look pass behind you out to the perimeter is, politely, ineffective and dangerous. I'd venture to guess that he's turned it over on that move more than successfully assisted in a bucket.

Also, I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere, but why is Grayson only taking catch-and-shoot NBA-length 3pts? Is that worth 4pts in college? Is he trying to showcase his NBA shooting for the draft?

[CDu]

Allen has had multiple lower-body injuries this year, most prominently:
- turf toe, which may or may not have healed by now
- sprained ankle against Clemson
- sprained ankle against UVa

The combination of these injuries is no doubt affecting his ability to drive and elevate. And without the athleticism advantage, he's just not an effective driver.

I thought last night was telling in that Allen just settled for floating around the perimeter. He's especially not effective against a zone if his athleticism is hampered. But unless he gets right physically, I don't think we're going to see Allen be getting to the rim any time soon.

[kAzE]

Allen has had multiple lower-body injuries this year, most prominently:
- turf toe, which may or may not have healed by now
- sprained ankle against Clemson
- sprained ankle against UVa

The combination of these injuries is no doubt affecting his ability to drive and elevate. And without the athleticism advantage, he's just not an effective driver.

I thought last night was telling in that Allen just settled for floating around the perimeter. He's especially not effective against a zone if his athleticism is hampered. But unless he gets right physically, I don't think we're going to see Allen be getting to the rim any time soon.

He was destroying everyone for about a 4 game stretch including this game (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400915431), then he had the injury early in the Clemson game and has terrible ever since. His ankle's health is the key to a deep postseason run.

[Jeffrey]

I believe Grayson should come back next year, have a solid season, earn a master's degree, and then cash in. He would have been a solid 1st round pick last year. This is a strong draft and Grayson is probably a 2nd rounder this year.

[Edouble]

I believe Grayson should come back next year, have a solid season, earn a master's degree, and then cash in. He would have been a solid 1st round pick last year. This is a strong draft and Grayson is probably a 2nd rounder this year.

That's what he was planning on doing this year. You can't really plan for having a solid season.

I'm more concerned with Grayson healing and having a strong March than about what he does next year.

[CDu]

That's what he was planning on doing this year. You can't really plan for having a solid season.

I'm more concerned with Grayson healing and having a strong March than about what he does next year.

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath for Allen to be back next year. I think he will impress in workouts, and will be able to point to the ankle injuries as the reason why. I can't imagine this year has been fun for him. And I can't imagine another year under the media microscope at Duke is something he's interested in.

If for some reason he does decide to come back, great. But I would consider that a very unlikely turn of events.

[Jeffrey]

That's what he was planning on doing this year. You can't really plan for having a solid season.


Of course, it was. However, there have been many things which have derailed that plan. Odds are he would have a strong senior season. He was most people's preseason NPOY for a good reason.

We all play the game differently. I prefer to win a few consecutive hands, with substantial pots, and then take the cash. Some lose a few consecutive hands, with substantial pots, and then take what's left of the cash.

[SilkyJ]

K has been explicit that Amile & Grayson are injured, but he doesn't have the luxury to sit them down the stretch.


Sure he does! He even admitted he could sit them after the Wake game, but he clearly doesn't want to. Everyone focuses on how he said "I would sit them if this was the pros," well he also said "I could sit them now, b/c we have qualified for the NCAA tournament at this point" or something to that effect. He just doesn't want to sit them b/c the team is still finding its identity as they've only played ~10-15 games together as a full unit.

I would have sat them vs Cuse, and sat them vs Miami giving them 10 days to heal up before FSU/UNC to close the season. We have bodies and it would be great minutes for Harry & Frank (I also want Harry to get more mins). K obviously disagrees, and I have no idea if 10 days is enough to get them healthy or if that would have no real effect, but if there's a scenario where 1-2 weeks of rest gets them healthy for March, then we need to jump on that oppty.

[NM Duke Fan]

I also would have sat Grayson for at least this game and preferably the next one as well; he is obviously limited, and what is more important is the NCAA tournament.

Change the title of this thread to: Go lay down and rest, Grayson, go lay down and rest!

[UrinalCake]

I have been assuming Grayson is gone after this season ever since reading that he is taking five classes per semester and took two classes each summer session in order to graduate in three years. It was a great plan for him to get his degree and also develop some point guard skills to showcase himself for the next level. But after the non-stop list of injuries, the tripping incident and ensuing media onslaught, and him struggling to handle the PG role, I'm coming around to the idea that he may have to readjust his expectations. He's not in any draft boards right now and who knows if he will be fully healthy when the combine comes around.

He came back to get his degree, and he's busted his tail in the classroom. For that he should be applauded. I am fine with whatever he decides and am grateful for his contributions to Duke. Right now though he's kind of a mess, needs to get healthy and hope there's still enough time in the season to get things rolling again.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I have been assuming Grayson is gone after this season ever since reading that he is taking five classes per semester and took two classes each summer session in order to graduate in three years. It was a great plan for him to get his degree and also develop some point guard skills to showcase himself for the next level. But after the non-stop list of injuries, the tripping incident and ensuing media onslaught, and him struggling to handle the PG role, I'm coming around to the idea that he may have to readjust his expectations. He's not in any draft boards right now and who knows if he will be fully healthy when the combine comes around.

He came back to get his degree, and he's busted his tail in the classroom. For that he should be applauded. I am fine with whatever he decides and am grateful for his contributions to Duke. Right now though he's kind of a mess, needs to get healthy and hope there's still enough time in the season to get things rolling again.

This is my thinking exactly.

Grayson's stock has been drastically eroded. This has "Kyle Singler should have left after his junior year" written all over it. I feel bad for the kid, but the poor play - compared to last year - is on him.

On the other hand, the media onslaught and the fan-targeting isn't going to get any better if he comes back. Fans loooove to hate Grayson, and it's easy to see why. If there were a Grayson Allen-type player coming to Cameron, the Crazies would go nuts.

I see arguments for Grayson leaving and Grayson staying. If I'm Grayson - and I'm clearly not - I'm bolting. A second round pick is okay, and I'll have to prove myself in the Summer League / D-League, but at least I won't be targeted anymore.

[jv001]

This is my thinking exactly.

Grayson's stock has been drastically eroded. This has "Kyle Singler should have left after his junior year" written all over it. I feel bad for the kid, but the poor play - compared to last year - is on him.
On the other hand, the media onslaught and the fan-targeting isn't going to get any better if he comes back. Fans loooove to hate Grayson, and it's easy to see why. If there were a Grayson Allen-type player coming to Cameron, the Crazies would go nuts.

I see arguments for Grayson leaving and Grayson staying. If I'm Grayson - and I'm clearly not - I'm bolting. A second round pick is okay, and I'll have to prove myself in the Summer League / D-League, but at least I won't be targeted anymore.

I think his poor play is mostly on being injured. As for the tripping incidents, he seemed to be coming around to the old Grayson until his ankle sprains. But you could say it's on him for returning this season. GoDuke!

[weezie]

... Right now though he's kind of a mess, needs to get healthy and hope there's still enough time in the season to get things rolling again.

Ouch. I understand that you mean this with great affection and that you have always been a fine poster to read but whew, this is a kid we're talking about. One of ours. We weren't saying this after the hole of tar game.
He looked pretty good after hoo game too. Five courses plus this long season, geez, I don't know how he's pulled it all off.

[DukeTrinity11]

This is my thinking exactly.

Grayson's stock has been drastically eroded. This has "Kyle Singler should have left after his junior year" written all over it. I feel bad for the kid, but the poor play - compared to last year - is on him.

On the other hand, the media onslaught and the fan-targeting isn't going to get any better if he comes back. Fans loooove to hate Grayson, and it's easy to see why. If there were a Grayson Allen-type player coming to Cameron, the Crazies would go nuts.

I see arguments for Grayson leaving and Grayson staying. If I'm Grayson - and I'm clearly not - I'm bolting. A second round pick is okay, and I'll have to prove myself in the Summer League / D-League, but at least I won't be targeted anymore.
Grayson needs to embrace the scrutiny-after all, every good story needs a villain.

I just don't see him having a future in the NBA and I think it would be in his best interest to come back to Duke for his senior season, win a national championship, get his jersey hung up in the Cameron rafters and then go to work on Wall Street or something like that. :cool:

[flyingdutchdevil]

Grayson needs to embrace the scrutiny-after all, every good story needs a villain.

I just don't see him having a future in the NBA and I think it would be in his best interest to come back to Duke for his senior season, win a national championship, get his jersey hung up in the Cameron rafters and then go to work on Wall Street or something like that. :cool:

I'd been thinking about this for a while. I don't think this is happening. Had Grayson had a similar year to last year, then no doubt. But not now. I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I just don't see it. And it's not just the antics/tripping, but the play isn't there. If Scheyer/Nolan don't have their jerseys up, no change in hell Grayson does.

[kAzE]

Ouch. I understand that you mean this with great affection and that you have always been a fine poster to read but whew, this is a kid we're talking about. One of ours. We weren't saying this after the hole of tar game.
He looked pretty good after hoo game too. Five courses plus this long season, geez, I don't know how he's pulled it all off.

I assume you're talking about the UVA game, where he went 2 for 10 from the floor, had 5 points and 1 rebound in 33 minutes? Not sure what you mean. He's been really bad for 4 straight games now. He might look like Grayson Allen and he might wear a #3 jersey for Duke, but he hasn't been the real Grayson Allen since he destroyed his ankle in the first half against Clemson.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I assume you're talking about the UVA game, where he went 2 for 10 from the floor, had 5 points and 1 rebound in 33 minutes? Not sure what you mean. He's been really bad for 4 straight games now. He might look like Grayson Allen and he might wear a #3 jersey for Duke, but he hasn't been the real Grayson Allen since he destroyed his ankle in the first half against Clemson.

To be completely fair, he also has the confidence of Grayson. But I agree - that isn't Grayson out there.

[devilnfla]

I understand all the talk about his injuries this year and how it's hampering his game. In my opinion his decision making is what hurts the most. It's not just the multiple fast breaks he destroyed last night, it's much more.

I know he's not a true PG and a lot of us were hoping he could develop into one. I equate his struggles to the same thing Matt Jones faced earlier this year. Since K has taken Matt out of that role, he's reverted back to the player we all knew prior to the PG experiment. At this point, it's time to move Grayson over to the 2 and let Luke and Frank run the point.

[Kedsy]

I know he's not a true PG and a lot of us were hoping he could develop into one. I equate his struggles to the same thing Matt Jones faced earlier this year. Since K has taken Matt out of that role, he's reverted back to the player we all knew prior to the PG experiment. At this point, it's time to move Grayson over to the 2 and let Luke and Frank run the point.

I don't understand your reasoning. If moving a "natural" SG to the point screwed up both Matt and Grayson, why in the world would you want to risk doing the same to our best offensive player?

[devilnfla]

I don't understand your reasoning. If moving a "natural" SG to the point screwed up both Matt and Grayson, why in the world would you want to risk doing the same to our best offensive player?

I'd prefer Frank, and bench Grayson.

[devilnfla]

Also, might add assuming Luke couldn't share that role with Frank might not be a safe assumption. Nolan and John did pretty well in 2010.

[kAzE]

Also, might add assuming Luke couldn't share that role with Frank might not be a safe assumption. Nolan and John did pretty well in 2010.

You're talking about completely changing the identity of the team in late February. We will be FINE if everyone can get healthy. A massive role change for our best offensive player will create way more problems than solve anything. Besides, our offense is not the problem. Our point guard can barely play and we're still the #7 offense according to KenPom.

[Jeffrey]

Wow, some amazing posts recently on this thread. Grayson will not have a future in the NBA, he should be benched, etc. We are still talking about Grayson Allen, most people's preseason NPOY, correct?

IMO, Grayson will have a solid and lucrative NBA career and would have gone in the mid-1st round last year. I believe if he comes back for his senior season, he will have a strong senior campaign and go in the mid-1st round. However, I'm not sure he should enter this year's draft when thoughts like the recent posts are circulating.

[Indoor66]

I believe that when healthy he is absolutely an NBA level talent. Nobody that is a Slasher can perform with a weak\sore ankle. Such an injury affects all aspects of a players game. I hope that he can heal before the tournament.

[lotusland]

I'd prefer Frank, and bench Grayson.

Was it Frank's 15 minutes last night with 4PFs a TO and 0-4 shooting that sold you on him?

Apologies for the snark and I don't mean to trash Frank. Just seems like a knee jerk reaction to one game where neither guy played their best.

[devilnfla]

Was it Frank's 15 minutes last night with 4PFs a TO and 0-4 shooting that sold you on him?

Apologies for the snark and I don't mean to trash Frank. Just seems like a knee jerk reaction to one game where neither guy played their best.

Not at all. This isn't just about last night's game. This is about Grayson's performance, hurt or not at PG. I beleive Frank is the closest thing on this roster to a true pg. Grayson has had some absolutely terrible moments this year. I lost count last night at how many blown 2, 3 and 4 on one's he totally screwed up. Most if not all in the 1st half when the game was theirs to close out.

I like Grayson and wish him the best including a speedy recovery to whatever ailments he might have. I've met the kid and he was an absolute gentleman. I truley believe he will have to perform much better if this team has any hopes of going deep in the NCAA's. However, him running this team right now is not working (IMO).

I'll grant you Frank was off last night, but I didn't see him blow transition after transition play like Grayson. His defense (when not making silly fouls 50' from the basket) is better too.

[devilnfla]

You're talking about completely changing the identity of the team in late February. We will be FINE if everyone can get healthy. A massive role change for our best offensive player will create way more problems than solve anything. Besides, our offense is not the problem. Our point guard can barely play and we're still the #7 offense according to KenPom.

How would that be changing the complete identity? As much as I love Luke, I'm not even sure he's our best player right now. I'll give you he's been the best throughout the year, but I believe Tatum is now equal to Luke if not better. Putting the ball in Luke's hand from the start could enhance Luke's game and remove the liability of poor decisions by Grayson. Also, I'm actually in favor of Frank taking that role before Luke. I believe that's the 2nd time I've said that.

[Jeffrey]

How would that be changing the complete identity? As much as I love Luke, I'm not even sure he's our best player right now. I'll give you he's been the best throughout the year, but I believe Tatum is now equal to Luke if not better. Putting the ball in Luke's hand from the start could enhance Luke's game and remove the liability of poor decisions by Grayson. Also, I'm actually in favor of Frank taking that role before Luke. I believe that's the 2nd time I've said that.

In our last 7 games, we have just gone 6-1, in the toughest conference. Our sole loss was a buzzer beater, on an away court, where the home team has gone 7-1, while beating three top 10 teams, in the toughest conference. And, you truly advise we now make a significant change?

[RPS]

In our last 7 games, we have just gone 6-1, in the toughest conference. Our sole loss was a buzzer beater, on an away court, where the home team has gone 7-1, while beating three top 10 teams, in the toughest conference. And, you truly advise we now make a significant change?

Exactly. Remember, folks, this isn't Inside Carolina.

[devilnfla]

In our last 7 games, we have just gone 6-1, in the toughest conference. Our sole loss was a buzzer beater, on an away court, where the home team has gone 7-1, while beating three top 10 teams, in the toughest conference. And, you truly advise we now make a significant change?

Yes Duke has just gone 6-1. Let's not pretend that 6-1 couldn't have very easily been 5-2, 4-3 or 3-4 with 3 very underwhelming wins against non top 25 teams. All of those at home (Pitt, Clemson & Wake).

I was very excited after the UVA win and to a lesser degree the ND win since they were road games with one of those being against a team that's had our number the last few years. Of course it's always sweet to beat Carolina, but they were a bit shorthanded as well.

Again, no one has explained to me why this is such a radical change. Grayson is clearly struggling physically and in my opinion with his decision making process as well. Does anyone really think that's a recipe for long term success? Especially considering that the schedule will not get any easier?

Frank and Luke have played in the back court numerous times this year. One or both have run the point. I'm simply saying make the adjustment by sitting Grayson. Why should his leash be so much longer than others who make similar mistakes at a lower rate? Let him get healthy and earn his PT back in practice when he demonstrates that he can be more consistent, run a fast break like it's not a new concept and play a little defense.

[jbay201]

how about have frank run point till grayson allen is fully healthy giving him plenty of experience for the tourney in case grayson struggles or gets injured again. No point to keep playing grayson while he is clearly injured and unable to drive with his ankle injury. I'd take a couple more losses this season and losing in the ACC tournament if it means that allen will be fully healthy for NCAA.

[Troublemaker]

In our last 7 games, we have just gone 6-1, in the toughest conference. Our sole loss was a buzzer beater, on an away court, where the home team has gone 7-1, while beating three top 10 teams, in the toughest conference. And, you truly advise we now make a significant change?

Despite the record, it does feel like Duke has hit a ceiling here these past couple of games, and it's a relatively low ceiling compared to the program's goal of hunting banners.

I definitely wouldn't mind a little shakeup. For one thing, let's get Grayson healthy. He has a sprained ankle. Don't let that sink his production for the rest of the season. Rest him. And I wouldn't mind giving Amile the day off against Miami, either. Let's give Marques, Frank, and Harry some extended run and see how they'll do. Maybe they rise to the occasion, and this helps to fasttrack their development. Or maybe they play horribly. Either way, you learn something, and you're still allowing key players to heal.

[Indoor66]

Yes Duke has just gone 6-1. Let's not pretend that 6-1 couldn't have very easily been 5-2, 4-3 or 3-4 with 3 very underwhelming wins against non top 25 teams. All of those at home (Pitt, Clemson & Wake).

...And our record could be 0'fer if we did not win any games. You make a specious argument.

[bluedev_92]

Yes Duke has just gone 6-1. Let's not pretend that 6-1 couldn't have very easily been 5-2, 4-3 or 3-4 with 3 very underwhelming wins against non top 25 teams. All of those at home (Pitt, Clemson & Wake).

I was very excited after the UVA win and to a lesser degree the ND win since they were road games with one of those being against a team that's had our number the last few years. Of course it's always sweet to beat Carolina, but they were a bit shorthanded as well.
Again, no one has explained to me why this is such a radical change. Grayson is clearly struggling physically and in my opinion with his decision making process as well. Does anyone really think that's a recipe for long term success? Especially considering that the schedule will not get any easier?

Frank and Luke have played in the back court numerous times this year. One or both have run the point. I'm simply saying make the adjustment by sitting Grayson. Why should his leash be so much longer than others who make similar mistakes at a lower rate? Let him get healthy and earn his PT back in practice when he demonstrates that he can be more consistent, run a fast break like it's not a new concept and play a little defense.

And we were not shorthanded with 2 starters playing hurt & one of the most highly recruited players in the country (Giles) not fully recovered from his injuries??

[weezie]

I assume you're talking about the UVA game, where he went 2 for 10 from the floor, had 5 points and 1 rebound in 33 minutes...he hasn't been the real Grayson Allen since he destroyed his ankle in the first half against Clemson.


...If moving a "natural" SG to the point screwed up both Matt and Grayson...

These two, taken together. His court vision seemed to be improving until the orange game. Of course, the team needs his scoring but his PG instincts were looking better until Wed night. Tough lesson hopefully being learned.

[Indoor66]

These two, taken together. His court vision seemed to be improving until the orange game. Of course, the team needs his scoring but his PG instincts were looking better until Wed night. Tough lesson hopefully being learned.

Different opponent and different defensive scheme. That affects court vision. Experience only comes with experience.

[jv001]

How would that be changing the complete identity? As much as I love Luke, I'm not even sure he's our best player right now. I'll give you he's been the best throughout the year, but I believe Tatum is now equal to Luke if not better. Putting the ball in Luke's hand from the start could enhance Luke's game and remove the liability of poor decisions by Grayson. Also, I'm actually in favor of Frank taking that role before Luke. I believe that's the 2nd time I've said that.

Some thoughts: 1) Rest Grayson for 2 or 3 games. Coach K said he and Amile are not practicing to help with their injuries. So, the injury to Grayson is severely limiting him. 2) Let Frank be the primary ball handler with Luke and Jayson getting lot's of touches. 3) Also, get the ball down low to Amile and Harry. I wish we had gone to Amile at the end of the Cuse game. He had made shots and even hit his FTs. 4) Please improve the defense against the PNR. Defense cost us the Cuse game along with the wasted fast break blunders in the first half. To win the ACCT and be elite in the NCAAT, we're going to need Grayson near 100% and our defense must be better. GoDuke!

[Spanarkel]

Different opponent and different defensive scheme. That affects court vision. Experience only comes with experience.

Marques Bolden says hello.

[Indoor66]

Marques Bolden says hello.

Different situation; different issues; different solutions.

[duketaylor]

Some thoughts: 1) Rest Grayson for 2 or 3 games. Coach K said he and Amile are not practicing to help with their injuries. So, the injury to Grayson is severely limiting him. 2) Let Frank be the primary ball handler with Luke and Jayson getting lot's of touches. 3) Also, get the ball down low to Amile and Harry. I wish we had gone to Amile at the end of the Cuse game. He had made shots and even hit his FTs. 4) Please improve the defense against the PNR. Defense cost us the Cuse game along with the wasted fast break blunders in the first half. To win the ACCT and be elite in the NCAAT, we're going to need Grayson near 100% and our defense must be better. GoDuke!

I'm in this camp, with 3 regular season games left, we're in the tourney and we need to be as healthy in mid-March as we can get. Can't imagine we'd drop much lower than a 6th seed at worse. Wisky lost last night which is helpful. Purdue has some toughies coming up including @Mich and @NW. Still gonna be cannibalism within conferences, my point being we're not gonna slip but so much because the committee will see what we're doing and why. Without a healthy GA I think we suffer an early out.

[Indoor66]

IMO, seeding does not matter IF WE ARE HEALTHY.
🏹😎

[jv001]

I'm in this camp, with 3 regular season games left, we're in the tourney and we need to be as healthy in mid-March as we can get. Can't imagine we'd drop much lower than a 6th seed at worse. Wisky lost last night which is helpful. Purdue has some toughies coming up including @Mich and @NW. Still gonna be cannibalism within conferences, my point being we're not gonna slip but so much because the committee will see what we're doing and why. Without a healthy GA I think we suffer an early out.

Coach K made a big point in his post game interview(Cuse game) of being in the NCAAT. He made it sound like it wasn't the end of the world because we lost the game. He said that Syracuse on the other hand really needed that win. With that in mind, I hope he sits Grayson Saturday and even longer if necessary to get him close to 100%. GoDuke!

[flyingdutchdevil]

Coach K made a big point in his post game interview(Cuse game) of being in the NCAAT. He made it sound like it wasn't the end of the world because we lost the game. He said that Syracuse on the other hand really needed that win. With that in mind, I hope he sits Grayson Saturday and even longer if necessary to get him close to 100%. GoDuke!

I'd venture a guess that Coach K will not sit any player for the rest of season. I really want him to, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Sad.

[jv001]

I'd venture a guess that Coach K will not sit any player for the rest of season. I really want him to, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Sad.

You're probably right FDD. GoDuke!

[kAzE]

Well, the good news is that it's been 8 days since Grayson last hurt his ankle in the UVA game. He did not appear to be in any major discomfort in either the Wake or Syracuse game, although his level of play suffered enormously. Grayson probably hasn't practiced at all. Here's to hoping he shows some improvement tomorrow.

Even if he has a bad game, I just want to see him moving around like he usually does, and being the decisive player he usually is.

[Jeffrey]

Despite the record, it does feel like Duke has hit a ceiling here these past couple of games, and it's a relatively low ceiling compared to the program's goal of hunting banners.

I definitely wouldn't mind a little shakeup. For one thing, let's get Grayson healthy. He has a sprained ankle. Don't let that sink his production for the rest of the season. Rest him. And I wouldn't mind giving Amile the day off against Miami, either. Let's give Marques, Frank, and Harry some extended run and see how they'll do. Maybe they rise to the occasion, and this helps to fasttrack their development. Or maybe they play horribly. Either way, you learn something, and you're still allowing key players to heal.

Resting Grayson (a concept I strongly agree with) was not the issue I was trying to address. I was addressing the concept below of shifting Luke to the PG role instead of Grayson. When healthy, I'd stick with Grayson and Frank in the PG role. Do you also think we should shift Luke to PG, instead of Grayson?


Putting the ball in Luke's hand from the start could enhance Luke's game and remove the liability of poor decisions by Grayson.

[duketaylor]

I like the idea of no true PG and have Frank, Luke and Tatum handling the ball a lot out front and bringing it upcourt between them. All three will get their looks as long as they're moving the ball around quickly and this team has demonstrated some excellent ball-movement lately.

[kAzE]

Resting Grayson (a concept I strongly agree with) was not the issue I was trying to address. I was addressing the concept below of shifting Luke to the PG role instead of Grayson. When healthy, I'd stick with Grayson and Frank in the PG role. Do you also think we should shift Luke to PG, instead of Grayson?


How would that be changing the complete identity? As much as I love Luke, I'm not even sure he's our best player right now. I'll give you he's been the best throughout the year, but I believe Tatum is now equal to Luke if not better. Putting the ball in Luke's hand from the start could enhance Luke's game and remove the liability of poor decisions by Grayson. Also, I'm actually in favor of Frank taking that role before Luke. I believe that's the 2nd time I've said that.

You want to know why Luke is shooting 46% from 3 and 52% overall? Because Grayson and other players have been finding him in his spots, especially open from 3, where he is very likely one of the top 5 guys in the country at catching and shooting. If you put the ball in his hands to initiate offense, you're taking away probably our single most effective option on offense. Luke should never have to play point guard. If Grayson is not in the game, Frank will run point, as he has done all year.

[Troublemaker]

Resting Grayson (a concept I strongly agree with) was not the issue I was trying to address. I was addressing the concept below of shifting Luke to the PG role instead of Grayson. When healthy, I'd stick with Grayson and Frank in the PG role. Do you also think we should shift Luke to PG, instead of Grayson?

I agree with you. Luke should stay in his current role, which has been great for the offense. It wouldn't make sense for him to be the PG in our sets. For example, instead of curling into the lane and receiving the pass, he'd be the one throwing the entry pass.

[devilnfla]

And we were not shorthanded with 2 starters playing hurt & one of the most highly recruited players in the country (Giles) not fully recovered from his injuries??

Yes, if you consider Jeter, we were also shorthanded. However, we had all of our starters available.

Your missing my point. Simply looking at overall record of 6-1 doesn't tell the entire story. In my opinion there were several red flags raised over that course. Call me pessimistic, but that's my opinion.

[Troublemaker]

Yes, if you consider Jeter, we were also shorthanded. However, we had all of our starters available.

Your missing my point. Simply looking at overall record of 6-1 doesn't tell the entire story. In my opinion there were several red flags raised over that course. Call me pessimistic, but that's my opinion.

That's reasonable. During Duke's 7-game win streak, we played like a top-15 team that made the clutch plays down the stretch to win close games, but not like a top-5 team. And it's now late enough in the season to wonder if this team CAN take it up another level.

I think if we do level up from here, it'll probably involve the young bigs playing a much larger role. Whether that means "breaking out" and "earning Coach K's trust," or Coach just playing them more because they're ready already.

[cato]

That's reasonable. During Duke's 7-game win streak, we played like a top-15 team that made the clutch plays down the stretch to win close games, but not like a top-5 team. And it's now late enough in the season to wonder if this team CAN take it up another level.

I think if we do level up from here, it'll probably involve the young bigs playing a much larger role. Whether that means "breaking out" and "earning Coach K's trust," or Coach just playing them more because they're ready already.

You may be right. Alternately, maybe all the team needs is for Grayson to play at an All-ACC level. Not sure there is time left for that, but it is possible.

[devilnfla]

That's reasonable. During Duke's 7-game win streak, we played like a top-15 team that made the clutch plays down the stretch to win close games, but not like a top-5 team. And it's now late enough in the season to wonder if this team CAN take it up another level.

I think if we do level up from here, it'll probably involve the young bigs playing a much larger role. Whether that means "breaking out" and "earning Coach K's trust," or Coach just playing them more because they're ready already.

I agree with you and will add, in order for us to "level up from here" we're going to have to expect better play from Grayson.

[KandG]

That's reasonable. During Duke's 7-game win streak, we played like a top-15 team that made the clutch plays down the stretch to win close games, but not like a top-5 team. And it's now late enough in the season to wonder if this team CAN take it up another level.

I think if we do level up from here, it'll probably involve the young bigs playing a much larger role.

I keep vacillating on this point myself, and flashing back to 2014. Is this team going to be 2014 Kentucky (championship game finalist)? Or 2014 Duke (first round exit to Mercer)? Both very talented, flawed teams like this one.

I don't hold out quite as much hope of the bigs making more than a single game contribution here or there beyond what they've done to date, unfortunately, which I guess makes me a pessimist. (At one point, I expected Harry to take that next step, but I think his defensive issues on the perimeter are just too limiting for K to trust him). My hope for the team leveling up would be Grayson and Amile getting up to 75-90% and the team figuring some things out on defense by the time the tournament rolls around.

[Brian913]

I believe Grayson should come back next year, have a solid season, earn a master's degree, and then cash in. He would have been a solid 1st round pick last year. This is a strong draft and Grayson is probably a 2nd rounder this year.

Being at the Carrier Dome, and hearing what he goes through every game - I'd rather play in the Ethiopian League than another year of that. He may play through the abuse, but it's got to take a lot of the fun out of it. And, if he were to come back, he would again be ESPN's enemy #1.

[Jeffrey]

Fortunately, since it's hard to be successful and happy otherwise, I'm definitely an optimist.

I expect Harry to continue to substantially improve. His lateral quickness has recently improved and is a key part of his game. He is capable of great D, as his lateral quickness improves.

I strongly believe a healthy Grayson plays All-ACC level and we know he can excel in the tournament.

Luke has had an All-American year and I suspect he will have an All-American tournament.

Jayson is consistently improving and will be a top 5 draft pick.

When 100%, Amile and Matt are almost certain to play well in the tournament.

[Jeffrey]

Being at the Carrier Dome, and hearing what he goes through every game - I'd rather play in the Ethiopian League than another year of that. He may play through the abuse, but it's got to take a lot of the fun out of it. And, if he were to come back, he would again be ESPN's enemy #1.

I certainly understand your point! Everyone handles it differently. Laettner loved it and Redick did well with it. Learning to play against it effectively would be a great asset for a future NBA player.

[Brian913]

Redick and Laettner went through nothing in comparison with the hate the media has orchestrated against Grayson.
Admittedly, there were double the usual number of hostile fans on Wednesday, but I never saw/heard anything like it at an away game before.