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View Full Version : I now have justification for my irrational hatred of Tom Izzo (tripping scandal)



scottdude8
02-08-2017, 11:19 AM
For anyone who isn't aware, Michigan and Michigan State dislike each other, a lot. Last night, the good guys (i.e. Michigan) demolished MSU in Ann Arbor while I happily sat in the student section (one of the benefits of being a grad student, haha). I was sitting in the second row quite near the MSU bench, and I made my hatred for Tom Izzo known, even though, rationally speaking, I've always had to acknowledge that he is one of the best non-K coaches in the game and he's generally run a upstanding program.

But after last night, I (and by extension all of us) have more than ample justification to dislike Izzo.

To recap: late in the first half, at which point Michigan was already up by around 20, MSU freshman Nick Ward clearly tripped Michigan's Mo Wagner (a player who, if you haven't seen him play, is criminally underused by Coach Beilein and criminally underrated on the national stage). After the timeout and a review, Ward was rightly awarded a tech. But the fireworks came after the game: Ward said nothing even remotely close to an apology (he said something along the lines of "I didn't think I tripped him on purpose, but the refs thought I did"), and Izzo actually tried to deflect blame onto Wagner (his quote was something along the lines of "yeah, Ward tripped him and that's unacceptable, but Wagner is kind of a pain, so things happen").

Can you imagine the furor that would've ensued if K had reacted that way to any of Grayson's trips, even the Louisville one which was arguably the most innocuous? Can you imagine if Grayson had shown no hint of any sort of remorse or apology like Ward did, and K didn't reprimand him for it?

I was flying high after the Michigan victory last night, and now I'm even happier that we all have a concrete example of how Izzo pales in comparison to the class of Coach K.

(On a funny side note, I had a first-time experience last night, including my time in Cameron: I actually got one of the refs to have a conversation with me as I was yelling at him during a timeout about Miles Bridges' tendency to hook people in the post. The ref stared right at me and mouthed "who?" to me, and I signaled back Bridges number. It was all very facetious and the ref laughed it off, but still pretty awesome. And more offensive fouls were called against the Sparties after that so I'm taking credit, hahaha.)

JasonEvans
02-08-2017, 11:31 AM
When I saw the video, it really didn't look clearly 100% intentional to me. It sorta looked like Ward was maybe just putting his foot forward in a normal walking motion as Wagner was walking. Maybe I missed some aspect of it, but it did not look like that bad of a trip to me.

Worth noting that because both players were moving at the relatively slow pace of walking the chance of this incident actually resulting in Wagner getting hurt is pretty darn small.

-Jason "Maybe he changes his gait a little bit... I can't really say. Judge for yourself..." Evans


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INaOB918SZw

scottdude8
02-08-2017, 11:47 AM
When I saw the video, it really didn't look clearly 100% intentional to me. It sorta looked like Ward was maybe just putting his foot forward in a normal walking motion as Wagner was walking. Maybe I missed some aspect of it, but it did not look like that bad of a trip to me.

Worth noting that because both players were moving at the relatively slow pace of walking the chance of this incident actually resulting in Wagner getting hurt is pretty darn small.

-Jason "Maybe he changes his gait a little bit... I can't really say. Judge for yourself..." Evans


I agree Jason... like I said, the trip was more akin to Grayson's against Louisville, when he was on the ground rolling over so any intentionality was a guess, as opposed to his later two which were a different story. But as is often the case, I think the response was far worse than the incident itself.

Like I said, imagine if after the Louisville trip, K's response was along the lines of what Izzo did, which was essentially saying, "I'm not sure if it was purposeful, but if it was, the other guy was being a bit of a pest so he deserved it." The internet may very well have exploded. That's what upset me more than the action itself. Especially calling out Wagner, who is an awesome kid who plays with an amazing intensity every night (even as many of his teammates *cough cough Zak Irvin cough cough* don't).

To be clear, point very well taken that the trip itself wasn't that bad in itself. It's Izzo's response that I think was ridiculous, and I thought it was well worth mentioning here because the comparison to K's reaction in a similar situation shows how lucky we are to have such a class act as our head coach.

OldPhiKap
02-08-2017, 11:56 AM
I don't think the two situations are in any way analogous, and not sure how one coach's reaction in this case reflects in any way upon the other.

If we want other people to let the whole Allen thing go, we've got to let it go first.

$.02

Reisen
02-08-2017, 12:07 PM
I think you're on the right track that your hatred is irrational. Izzo is one of my favorite coaches in the game, although I admit I'm biased as some of his siblings / family members are long time family friends (although I've never met him in person).

Being a lifelong soccer player and fan, I find this whole tripping thing (whether Greyson Allen, or anyone else) one of the stupidest stories in sports. I think ONLY because it was a white Duke player has this turned into "a thing". Players fall, trip, and flop in any contact sport. Soccer, football, hockey, basketball, lacrosse, you name it. It happens every single game, usually multiple times.

It's a foul in every sport, too, for good reason. But to somehow say we should care more about it than a hand check, a push-off, a moving pick, etc? It makes ZERO sense. There are, and have been, a ton of big men that constantly set moving screens, often called for it multiple times per game. How is that any better? There are players that constantly throw elbows in the post, undercut dunking players, shove a player while they're in the air, etc. Yet somehow we're supposed to be up in arms over someone tripping someone, which most of the time is hard to tell if it was purposeful or incidental???

Back to Izzo, with all of the sketch balls and shady characters coaching in college ball, Izzo is one of the few good guys.

Troublemaker
02-08-2017, 12:10 PM
Can you imagine the furor that would've ensued if K had reacted that way to any of Grayson's trips, even the Louisville one which was arguably the most innocuous? Can you imagine if Grayson had shown no hint of any sort of remorse or apology like Ward did, and K didn't reprimand him for it?

I was flying high after the Michigan victory last night, and now I'm even happier that we all have a concrete example of how Izzo pales in comparison to the class of Coach K.



Like I said, imagine if after the Louisville trip, K's response was along the lines of what Izzo did, which was essentially saying, "I'm not sure if it was purposeful, but if it was, the other guy was being a bit of a pest so he deserved it." The internet may very well have exploded. That's what upset me more than the action itself. Especially calling out Wagner, who is an awesome kid who plays with an amazing intensity every night (even as many of his teammates *cough cough Zak Irvin cough cough* don't).

To be clear, point very well taken that the trip itself wasn't that bad in itself. It's Izzo's response that I think was ridiculous, and I thought it was well worth mentioning here because the comparison to K's reaction in a similar situation shows how lucky we are to have such a class act as our head coach.

I dunno. Coach K's been coaching for 4 decades, so you're always going to be able to find some similar situation. For example, a lot of Carolina fans are still rankled that after Gerald broke Hansbrough's nose, Coach K said that Gerald was the victim.

Which I was on board with, mind you. Gerald had to continue to go to school and reside in a state where most of the natives and media would call him a thug for that incident.

Ima Facultiwyfe
02-08-2017, 12:12 PM
Boys will be boys.
Love, Ima

ChillinDuke
02-08-2017, 12:13 PM
When I saw the video, it really didn't look clearly 100% intentional to me. It sorta looked like Ward was maybe just putting his foot forward in a normal walking motion as Wagner was walking. Maybe I missed some aspect of it, but it did not look like that bad of a trip to me.

Worth noting that because both players were moving at the relatively slow pace of walking the chance of this incident actually resulting in Wagner getting hurt is pretty darn small.

-Jason "Maybe he changes his gait a little bit... I can't really say. Judge for yourself..." Evans


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INaOB918SZw

Generally agree. Tough to tell.

I'd say it's on a similar level as the Grayson trip with Louisville. Grayson's was maybe just slightly worse in terms of how clear it was. But Grayson's was also (like all of his) live ball - not saying that makes it right, just that it changes the context. My issue with Ward's trip is that it was completely avoidable. Now I assume players are taught to get to their bench directly and as quickly as possible on a time out (because everyone does it that way). But in situations like this, why not just let the guy go? He's jogging and it will only take a fraction of a second to let him pass. IMO, if I'm a ref, that's my rationale for the tech - because a completely avoidable situation was not avoided.

- Chillin

jacone21
02-08-2017, 12:13 PM
I dunno. Coach K's been coaching for 4 decades, so you're always going to be able to find some similar situation. For example, a lot of Carolina fans are still rankled that after Gerald broke Hansbrough's nose, Coach K said that Gerald was the victim.

Which I was on board with, mind you. Gerald had to continue to go to school and reside in a state where most of the natives and media would call him a thug for that incident.

And actually attend class!

cato
02-08-2017, 12:34 PM
When did tripping become a capital offense? It is about 1000% less risky than undercutting someone or throwing an elbow. (Also less stylish than kicking a Carolina player in the chest).

The only good thing Michigan has done was hiring Tommy, and they even screwed that up.

dukebluesincebirth
02-08-2017, 12:41 PM
When did tripping become a capital offense? It is about 1000% less risky than undercutting someone or throwing an elbow. (Also less stylish than kicking a Carolina player in the chest).

The only good thing Michigan has done was hiring Tommy, and they even screwed that up.

I think it became a capital offense when a talented, white, accomplished Duke player did it. Seriously.

kAzE
02-08-2017, 12:44 PM
Didn't look intentional to me. Wagner looked like he was walking and then suddenly broke into a jog right as he and Ward crossed paths, causing the tangle up. Ward's walking motion looked completely normal to me, and he wasn't even looking at Wagner. I was surprised he got a tech for that. If that had happened in the middle of a play off the ball, I'm not sure that even gets looked at.

Tom B.
02-08-2017, 12:47 PM
On a tangential note, Duke's early-season win over Michigan State is looking less and less impressive. Michigan State is now 14-10 (6-5 in the B1G), unranked in the AP and coaches' polls, #57 in KenPom, #45 in Sagarin, and #49 in the RPI.

Our best non-conference win is our win over Florida in New York, back in December. Florida is #17 in the AP and coaches' polls, #6 in KenPom, #9 in Sagarin, and #8 in the RPI.

OldPhiKap
02-08-2017, 12:52 PM
When did tripping become a capital offense?

It became a felony in the late 1960's

kAzE
02-08-2017, 12:52 PM
On a tangential note, Duke's early-season win over Michigan State is looking less and less impressive. Michigan State is now 14-10 (6-5 in the B1G), unranked in the AP and coaches' polls, #57 in KenPom, #45 in Sagarin, and #49 in the RPI.

Our best non-conference win is our win over Florida in New York, back in December. Florida is #17 in the AP and coaches' polls, #6 in KenPom, #9 in Sagarin, and #8 in the RPI.

The Spartans have had some huge injury issues, almost as many as us. They will make a run at some point when the team gels. Does anybody really doubt that Izzo will get things under control and probably still make a deep run in the tournament? I just assume that's what will happen every year at this point. I don't hate Izzo at all. IMO, he's the 2nd best coach in college basketball.

Tripping William
02-08-2017, 12:54 PM
It became a felony in the late 1960's

I was born "back in the Summer of '69." Coincidence?

OldPhiKap
02-08-2017, 12:56 PM
I was born back in the Summer of 1969. Coincidence?

Do you happen to have a sister named Sunshine?

scottdude8
02-08-2017, 02:01 PM
Hmm, seems based on the responses here that I may have let my MSU hatred cloud my judgement here. I would've thought the Izzo response would have ruffled a few feathers, even though I knew the trip itself wouldn't... but the consensus seems to be that it isn't that big of a thing. Interesting. I always love to see what Duke fans think of my Michigan fandom, and vice-versa, and I was really hoping I could use this incident to bring those two sides together, haha. Nevertheless, interesting stuff!

OldPhiKap
02-08-2017, 02:05 PM
Hmm, seems based on the responses here that I may have let my MSU hatred cloud my judgement here. I would've thought the Izzo response would have ruffled a few feathers, even though I knew the trip itself wouldn't... but the consensus seems to be that it isn't that big of a thing. Interesting. I always love to see what Duke fans think of my Michigan fandom, and vice-versa, and I was really hoping I could use this incident to bring those two sides together, haha. Nevertheless, interesting stuff!

I'll join you in a hearty "suck walnuts, tOSU" if that helps.

Bluedog
02-08-2017, 02:21 PM
Hmm, seems based on the responses here that I may have let my MSU hatred cloud my judgement here. I would've thought the Izzo response would have ruffled a few feathers, even though I knew the trip itself wouldn't... but the consensus seems to be that it isn't that big of a thing. Interesting. I always love to see what Duke fans think of my Michigan fandom, and vice-versa, and I was really hoping I could use this incident to bring those two sides together, haha. Nevertheless, interesting stuff!

I agree that if Coach K did what Izzo did, the media would probably freak out, but I would then consider the media freakout irrational...Not Izzo's fault the media doesn't treat everybody the same. The "trip" didn't look that bad to me too and I agree with other commenters about why all of a sudden it's seen as the worst foul in basketball, when clearly it's not. As the ESPN article so nicely reminds us, though (paraphrasing) "tripping has been a hotbed issue this season after Grayson Allen of Duke has tripped multiple people and was suspended..." Seems like every incident report on ESPN is a comparison to Grayson. Even the article about Dillon Brooks' intentionally kicking a guy in the nuts mentioned Grayson somehow and what he had done. I honestly think (some) players themselves are probably looking for their opponents to put out their legs and intentionally tripping over them to get cheap fouls/T's if they can. Not saying that necessarily happened here, but could see it in the realm of possibility happening throughout the season. Not much different than a flop.

InSpades
02-08-2017, 02:28 PM
Being somewhat of an expert on intentional vs. unintentional tripping (thanks to Grayson!)...

This looks like absolutely nothing. I'm surprised they called anything.

Wahoo2000
02-08-2017, 02:41 PM
I'm not seeing that being a purposeful trip. At least, not beyond a reasonable doubt. IF he has recurring issues with it (a la Allen), he loses the benefit of the doubt.

As to Izzo? I definitely think he's one of the good guys, and being a Virginia fan, I have as good a reason as anyone to dislike him. Huge respect for the guy (I like Michigan a lot too though).

Selover
02-08-2017, 03:14 PM
I'll join you in a hearty "suck walnuts, tOSU" if that helps.

O-H!! :cool:

kmspeaks
02-08-2017, 03:31 PM
Didn't look intentional to me. Wagner looked like he was walking and then suddenly broke into a jog right as he and Ward crossed paths, causing the tangle up. Ward's walking motion looked completely normal to me, and he wasn't even looking at Wagner. I was surprised he got a tech for that. If that had happened in the middle of a play off the ball, I'm not sure that even gets looked at.

The bolded is probably true. My guess is it was called a technical because it was a dead ball contact situation so it has to be called that way, not because the refs thought that play warranted a technical.

rsvman
02-08-2017, 03:34 PM
I don't know what video y'all are watching, but it kind of looks intentional to me.

One thing I can guarantee is that if Grayson did that, people would be calling for a lifetime ban!

Spanarkel
02-08-2017, 03:40 PM
Generally agree. Tough to tell.

I'd say it's on a similar level as the Grayson trip with Louisville. Grayson's was maybe just slightly worse in terms of how clear it was. But Grayson's was also (like all of his) live ball - not saying that makes it right, just that it changes the context. My issue with Ward's trip is that it was completely avoidable. Now I assume players are taught to get to their bench directly and as quickly as possible on a time out (because everyone does it that way). But in situations like this, why not just let the guy go? He's jogging and it will only take a fraction of a second to let him pass. IMO, if I'm a ref, that's my rationale for the tech - because a completely avoidable situation was not avoided.

- Chillin

Respectfully disagree. The trip in the Elon game occurred very shortly AFTER both the baseline and the sideline officials signalled a common foul had been called on Grayson.

flyingdutchdevil
02-08-2017, 03:43 PM
I don't know what video y'all are watching, but it kind of looks intentional to me.

One thing I can guarantee is that if Grayson did that, people would be calling for a lifetime ban!

First point disagree (I think it's way too ambiguous).

Second point wholeheartedly agree. If Grayson did that, he could single-handedly save ESPN's financial situation with all the TV/internet traffic going ESPN's way.

DukieInKansas
02-08-2017, 04:32 PM
I'll join you in a hearty "suck walnuts, tOSU" if that helps.

I'll join that chorus. But I like to leave off the t. :D

OldPhiKap
02-08-2017, 05:03 PM
I'll join that chorus. But I like to leave off the t. :D

Why would you tell someone to suck walnus?

moonpie23
02-08-2017, 05:09 PM
negative....that was on purpose.....he even diverted his gaze upward ( so as not to be looking at the deliberate trip) to head fake anyone that may have been watching......

deliberate....

Reisen
02-08-2017, 05:43 PM
I honestly think (some) players themselves are probably looking for their opponents to put out their legs and intentionally tripping over them to get cheap fouls/T's if they can. Not saying that necessarily happened here, but could see it in the realm of possibility happening throughout the season. Not much different than a flop.

I've told this story in soccer threads on these boards, but I grew up in Europe, and came up through the British, Spanish, Dutch, and German soccer systems. I vividly remember, as a little kid, practicing running at our coaches outstretched leg, intentionally tripping over them, and how to fall without getting hurt. I further remember viewing a defender's outstretched leg when dribbling by him exactly how a three point shooter in basketball views a defender that jumps at them. Why avoid contact when you can get a free foul?

scottdude8
02-09-2017, 01:36 PM
I'll join you in a hearty "suck walnuts, tOSU" if that helps.

Haha it always does! Worst mascot in sports. A Buckeye is a poisonous nut, meaning the only way it possibly can damage you, intimidate you, etc. is if you're dumb enough to eat it... and even still THE BUCKEYE IS THEN CRUSHED AND DEAD. Such an awful mascot. End rant.

WiJoe
02-09-2017, 03:20 PM
Izzo has Napoleon syndrome. Not a fan, AT ALL. He was one of the first, maybe THE first, coaches to have his team use all the over-the-top physical bs you see in the college game these days. Blocking pads in practice. How theory: If we're not as talented as you, we'll beat your *ss up. What a load of crap.

Plus, he's the biggest whiner ever. Makes Boeheim look like a priest.

bluebeagle
02-09-2017, 03:32 PM
I lost all respect for Izzo after hearing him whine after the loss to Duke in the 2015 game. Then next game the coach from Wisconsin topped him with the whinefest.