I Come in Peace

[Aziggazoomba]

Thought this might be of interest.

http://www.thescore.com/ncaab/news/1226890-roy-williams-grayson-allen-is-a-wonderful-kid

[Passes around olive branches]

Go Heels.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Thought this might be of interest.

http://www.thescore.com/ncaab/news/1226890-roy-williams-grayson-allen-is-a-wonderful-kid

[Passes around olive branches]

Go Heels.

I already like you 10x more than the other UNC poster on this board. Thanks, and you are welcome to post here as long as you show up during Duke wins as well as Duke losses. And I'm sure you're capable of posting your thoughts on UNC players without bashing Duke players.

Question: what's your take on Nate Britt?

[BLPOG]

Thought this might be of interest.

http://www.thescore.com/ncaab/news/1226890-roy-williams-grayson-allen-is-a-wonderful-kid

[Passes around olive branches]

Go Heels.

Very brave of you to post this time of year. Normally, this board is very welcoming to other schools' fans.

In UNC's case, it can be hard to avoid certain topics that inevitably lead to thread derailment and general antagonism.

If you're willing risk it, don't be afraid to post some analysis/perspective on your team in the pre-game thread. Many of us don't have the time to watch a lot of other teams' games, so outside perspective is nice.

[FerryFor50]

Thought this might be of interest.

http://www.thescore.com/ncaab/news/1226890-roy-williams-grayson-allen-is-a-wonderful-kid

[Passes around olive branches]

Go Heels.

Roy Williams has now said two sensible things in the past week.

7153

[Aziggazoomba]

I already like you 10x more than the other UNC poster on this board. Thanks, and you are welcome to post here as long as you show up during Duke wins as well as Duke losses. And I'm sure you're capable of posting your thoughts on UNC players without bashing Duke players.

Question: what's your take on Nate Britt?

Thanks. Don't worry. I'm pretty passionate but also fairly civil (and therefore pretty much out of place in 2017 Amerika).

Nate is a really good kid (or so he seems--but what do I know?), so I am favorably disposed towards him.

He gets a lot of cheap shots from so-called fans, and I admit he's no Joel Berry and he's prone to mishandling the ball and taking a bad shot from time to time. But it's hard for me to slam him.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Thanks. Don't worry. I'm pretty passionate but also fairly civil (and therefore pretty much out of place in 2017 Amerika).

Nate is a really good kid (or so he seems--but what do I know?), so I am favorably disposed towards him.

He gets a lot of cheap shots from so-called fans, and I admit he's no Joel Berry and he's prone to mishandling the ball and taking a bad shot from time to time. But it's hard for me to slam him.

Good luck.

[Aziggazoomba]

Very brave of you to post this time of year. Normally, this board is very welcoming to other schools' fans.

In UNC's case, it can be hard to avoid certain topics that inevitably lead to thread derailment and general antagonism.

If you're willing risk it, don't be afraid to post some analysis/perspective on your team in the pre-game thread. Many of us don't have the time to watch a lot of other teams' games, so outside perspective is nice.

Yep, I understand the dynamic. Certain topics and antagonism are unavoidable.

Mainly my goal is to try to make the point that not all Carolina fans are cretins. I know I'm basically spitting into a gale force wind, but I can't help it.

Thanks and Go Heels.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yep, I understand the dynamic. Certain topics and antagonism are unavoidable.

Mainly my goal is to try to make the point that not all Carolina fans are cretins. I know I'm basically spitting into a gale force wind, but I can't help it.

Thanks and Go Heels.

Welcome! I'm sure you're not all cretins.

Looking forward to a hard played game (clean, of course!).

Go Duke!

[devildeac]

Thought this might be of interest.

http://www.thescore.com/ncaab/news/1226890-roy-williams-grayson-allen-is-a-wonderful-kid

[Passes around olive branches]

Go Heels.

Nice find. Thanks for finding/visiting/sharing. I recognize your screen name from the way back machine. It's been a while.

Beer is better. ;)

[Aziggazoomba]

Nice find. Thanks for finding/visiting/sharing. I recognize your screen name from the way back machine. It's been a while.

Beer is better. ;)

Yes, several years in fact. As in, even before the, uhh, recent unpleasantness.

Congrats on getting your coach back, and have fun on Thursday night (just not too much fun).

Go Heels.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yes, several years in fact. As in, even before the, uhh, recent unpleasantness.

Congrats on getting your coach back, and have fun on Thursday night (just not too much fun).

Go Heels.

You mean UNC making the Final Four last year? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Aziggazoomba]

You mean UNC making the Final Four last year? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Well, yeah, that was pretty freaking unpleasant, now that you mention it.

[devildeac]

Yes, several years in fact. As in, even before the, uhh, recent unpleasantness.

Congrats on getting your coach back, and have fun on Thursday night (just not too much fun).

Go (to hell) Heels.


We do a lot of "post clarification" around here so I took the minor liberty of "correcting" yours a bit. Hope you don't mind. :o:rolleyes:

82-50 would be nice Thursday night (favor of the royal blue guys, of course) but I'll take a 1 point Blue Devil win (with an extra beer or 3, of course).

[Aziggazoomba]

We do a lot of "post clarification" around here so I took the minor liberty of "correcting" yours a bit. Hope you don't mind. :o:rolleyes:

82-50 would be nice Thursday night (favor of the royal blue guys, of course) but I'll take a 1 point Blue Devil win (with an extra beer or 3, of course).

Those are admirable clarification skills on your part, so if things don't work out for you in your current vocation, I'm sure there's a place for you in [politics].

(Couldn't agree more, beer-wise)

[FadedTackyShirt]

Thought this might be of interest.

http://www.thescore.com/ncaab/news/1226890-roy-williams-grayson-allen-is-a-wonderful-kid

[Passes around olive branches]

Go Heels.

Great first post.

Good friend is a UNC grad/dad/season ticket holder. We don't discuss AFAM, but he's very fair in discussing purely Duke and UNC hoops.

Despite last year's F4, he's largely soured on Roy. His complaint is that Roy needs overwhelming talent to win and is no longer recruiting at a high enough level. Is that a mainstream opinion among the UNC fan base?

[Aziggazoomba]

Great first post.

Good friend is a UNC grad/dad/season ticket holder. We don't discuss AFAM, but he's very fair in discussing purely Duke and UNC hoops.

Despite last year's F4, he's largely soured on Roy. His complaint is that Roy needs overwhelming talent to win and is no longer recruiting at a high enough level. Is that a mainstream opinion among the UNC fan base?

Good question.

Roy certainly has his detractors, but I'd say most would say (in response to the alleged recruiting shortcomings) that it's not his fault. AFAM etc. has pretty well tied his hands and because of that backdrop he's simply not able to land the caliber of recruit that he wants and would otherwise be able to secure. I think most would say that under the circumstances, he's done as well as could be expected (and has done a good job with the recruits he has gotten).

[Troublemaker]

Nice find. Thanks for finding/visiting/sharing. I recognize your screen name from the way back machine. It's been a while.

Beer is better. ;)

Yeah, I recognize Zoomba's name as well. He/she predates every poster giving him/her advice in this thread, lol. Might've even posted in the era before the forum became vBulletin.

[FadedTackyShirt]

How popular/beloved are He's Not Here and The Crunkleton? Kinda the alpha and omega of bars, but both great in their niche. Gary Crunkleton is a really good guy and a tremendous bartender.

Have only been to both on weeknights post-Duke games and both have been nearly deserted, but an told both are jammed after UNC football and hoops games.

[BandAlum83]

Thought this might be of interest.

http://www.thescore.com/ncaab/news/1226890-roy-williams-grayson-allen-is-a-wonderful-kid

[Passes around olive branches]

Go Heels.

Thanks for the link. Don't let the door hit you on your way out!


Kidding....Welcome to the board! I admit I've had my share of Carolina friends, but come to think of it, they were all female ;)

Looking forward to your (non-antagonistic) point of view.

BTW, It's America with a "C". I understand, if you went to UNC, but let's see if you can be taught.

[Steven43]

Well, yeah, that was pretty freaking unpleasant, now that you mention it.What?! The UNC v Villanova national final was one of my all-time most enjoyable games. Can't imagine someone not seeing it that way. Weird. And wasn't that final shot amazing? Mike seemed to like it. BTW, just messing with you a little bit.

On a more serious note, how is Brice doing in his rookie year? Boy am I glad THAT guy has moved on. I would say 'graduated', but, well, you know. Just remember, this is Duke-UNC week. We will return to civility after Thursday.

[DU82]

And here I thought this thread was about Jay Bilas's movie career.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099817/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_2

[OldPhiKap]

Thought this might be of interest.

http://www.thescore.com/ncaab/news/1226890-roy-williams-grayson-allen-is-a-wonderful-kid

[Passes around olive branches]

Go Heels.

That is good to read, thanks for posting it.

Rational discussion always welcome here.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

That is good to read, thanks for posting it.

Rational discussion always welcome here.

Wait, when did we start that??

[devildeac]

Those are admirable clarification skills on your part, so if things don't work out for you in your current vocation, I'm sure there's a place for you in [politics].

(Couldn't agree more, beer-wise)

:D

Yea, but they'll have to offer something much safer than food/beer taster. :rolleyes:

[OldPhiKap]

Wait, when did we start that??

Well, it's really more of an aspirational statement.

[devildeac]

What?! The UNC v Villanova national final was one of my all-time most enjoyable games. Can't imagine someone not seeing it that way. Weird. And wasn't that final shot amazing? Mike seemed to like it. BTW, just messing with you a little bit.

On a more serious note, how is Brice doing in his rookie year? Boy am I glad THAT guy has moved on. I would say 'graduated', but, well, you know. Just remember, this is Duke-UNC week. We will return to civility after Thursday.

What you mean we, Lonerider?

[UrinalCake]

Williams told Andrew Carter of The News and Observer that Allen is a "wonderful kid," and said the coverage surrounding him "has been way, way blown out of proportion."

Williams' next sentence was "now please show mercy on me this Thursday, daggumit!"

[weezie]

Ok, party's over. What are you goofballs up to in here? :confused:

[mattman91]

What you mean we, Lonerider?

I think he means that until then it is Pistols at Dawn :cool::rolleyes::o

[BandAlum83]

I think he means that until then it is Pistols at Dawn :cool::rolleyes::o

Zell Miller will be so happy to hear this!

[devildeac]

Ok, party's over. What are you goofballs up to in here? :confused:

Shhh, we're conversing in a civil manner with a reasonable c*rolina fan. And yes, I did link the words reasonable and c*rolina fan in my prior sentence. :o:rolleyes:

[devildeac]

I think he means that until then it is Pistols at Dawn :cool::rolleyes::o

Hoppy Ki Yay, now that was well played/linked. ;)

Question to Aziggazoomba: What do you think about unc's defense thus far this year? Over/underrated or about what you expected?

[duke4ever19]

Yes, several years in fact. As in, even before the, uhh, recent unpleasantness.

Congrats on getting your coach back, and have fun on Thursday night (just not too much fun).

Go Heels.

Ok, you should be posting here more often.

Now hurry and climb up into our tree house and pull up the ladder before Wheat comes back.

[AtlDuke72]

I already like you 10x more than the other UNC poster on this board

I for one also like hearing from the other UNC poster.

[Reilly]

As I understand matters theological and basketball-al:

If you come in peace, you're doing God's work.

If you come in peace and root for Carolina, you're going to Hell.

As Justice Scalia said: "this wolf comes as a wolf." [Insert 'goofy sheep' for 'wolf.']

[Faison1]

Thought this might be of interest.

http://www.thescore.com/ncaab/news/1226890-roy-williams-grayson-allen-is-a-wonderful-kid

[Passes around olive branches]

Go Heels.

I don't trust this post...

[NYBri]

9F!!!!!!!!!!

[rsvman]

I, too, remember 'zoomba from the way back machine. If I recall correctly, he/she was always civil and thoughtful, even though showing allegiance to the wrong shade of blue.
Welcome back.

[westwall]

Good luck.


Wheat, now that there is another civil UNC poster here, please don't go away. We still love/hate you as always. Stick around, please.

[duke4ever19]

Wheat, now that there is another civil UNC poster here, please don't go away. We still love/hate you as always. Stick around, please.

Sorry, Wheat.


7154

It's time to go. Please get your things.

[BD80]

And here I thought this thread was about Jay Bilas's movie career.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099817/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_2

My first thought as well.

7155

The film was released as "I Come In Peace."

An amusing note, the evil alien would say "I come in peace" throughout the movie, but he never meant it.

[jv001]

I for one also like hearing from the other UNC poster.

You can have him. :cool:GoDuke!

[OldPhiKap]

7155



If Jay Bilas and Seth Greenberg had an illicit love child together, I think that's kinda what it would look like.

And, of course, it would live on a bubble not in it.



My dislike for UNC is limited to their program, not their fans. I always welcome the view of an opposing program through the eyes of their ardent followers, as well as their view from the outside of our team.

[Aziggazoomba]

How popular/beloved are He's Not Here and The Crunkleton? Kinda the alpha and omega of bars, but both great in their niche. Gary Crunkleton is a really good guy and a tremendous bartender.

Have only been to both on weeknights post-Duke games and both have been nearly deserted, but an told both are jammed after UNC football and hoops games.

Both are still much beloved. He's Not is mainly a memory for me and I feel out of place when I go there now. The Crunkleton, on the other hand, fits me nicely. And Gary really is a gem.

[Aziggazoomba]

Thanks for the link. Don't let the door hit you on your way out!


Kidding...Welcome to the board! I admit I've had my share of Carolina friends, but come to think of it, they were all female ;)

Looking forward to your (non-antagonistic) point of view.

BTW, It's America with a "C". I understand, if you went to UNC, but let's see if you can be taught.

Thanks but actually I'm going to stick with the "k"--it seems to fit these days.

(Besides, I thought you folk were favorably inclined towards that letter.)

[Aziggazoomba]

What?! The UNC v Villanova national final was one of my all-time most enjoyable games. Can't imagine someone not seeing it that way. Weird. And wasn't that final shot amazing? Mike seemed to like it. BTW, just messing with you a little bit.

On a more serious note, how is Brice doing in his rookie year? Boy am I glad THAT guy has moved on. I would say 'graduated', but, well, you know. Just remember, this is Duke-UNC week. We will return to civility after Thursday.

Brice hurt his back early on in the season, and I think he may still be out.

["graduated"--yeah--good one.]

[Aziggazoomba]

Hoppy Ki Yay, now that was well played/linked. ;)

Question to Aziggazoomba: What do you think about unc's defense thus far this year? Over/underrated or about what you expected?

Overrated and disappointing. Am very much hoping that changes over the next 36+ hours.

[Aziggazoomba]

As I understand matters theological and basketball-al:

If you come in peace, you're doing God's work.

If you come in peace and root for Carolina, you're going to Hell.

As Justice Scalia said: "this wolf comes as a wolf." [Insert 'goofy sheep' for 'wolf.']

"The path to paradise begins in hell."
--Dante A.

And (with all due respect/may he rest in peace/etc.) I never was a big fan of Justice Scalia.

Cheers and Go Heels.

[UrinalCake]

My dislike for UNC is limited to their program, not their fans.

"Love the sinner, hate the sin."

I actually have several friends and acquaintances with UNC ties who are reasonable, educated people. We can talk respectfully about our teams and playfully rib each other. But when the conversation turns to their decades of academic fraud, they go into complete denial mode. They honestly believe this was just a few easy classes like they have at every school, and think that the NCAA is conducting a witch hunt against them.

[Reilly]

.. My dislike for UNC is limited to their program, not their fans ...

I have no dislike for Carolina fans. I just want them to go to Hell. I think they'll be happier there, or we will be, or something.

[ChillinDuke]

I already like you 10x more than the other UNC poster on this board. Thanks, and you are welcome to post here as long as you show up during Duke wins as well as Duke losses. And I'm sure you're capable of posting your thoughts on UNC players without bashing Duke players.

Question: what's your take on Nate Britt?

I thought the bolded was really funny.


Good luck.

Until I read this. LOL

- Chillin

[FadedTackyShirt]

Both are still much beloved. He's Not is mainly a memory for me and I feel out of place when I go there now. The Crunkleton, on the other hand, fits me nicely. And Gary really is a gem.

At least y'all still have the option to return to a quality college dive if you wish. Not ashamed to admit I got weepy big time when the Hideaway closed.

The Crunkleton is a cozy craft cocktail Yoko among our crew. Awesome spot for a few high end post game pops and a easy walk to the Carolina Inn.

New downtown Durham drinking, dining, and lodging options plus Uber make it a much better option post-Duke games, but can't quit Crunkleton. Freaking bar is sowing discord and chaos among aging mop top royal blue drunks.

[Aziggazoomba]

At least y'all still have the option to return to a quality college dive if you wish. Not ashamed to admit I got weepy big time when the Hideaway closed.

The Crunkleton is a cozy craft cocktail Yoko among our crew. Awesome spot for a few high end post game pops and a easy walk to the Carolina Inn.

New downtown Durham drinking, dining, and lodging options plus Uber make it a much better option post-Duke games, but can't quit Crunkleton. Freaking bar is sowing discord and chaos among aging mop top royal blue drunks.

This really is a significant development (at least relative to my experience in the pleistocene era). My kid lives in Chapel Hill (still in school) and goes to Durham all the time for extracurricular activities. Back in my day no one ever did that, except maybe to go to Bullocks BBQ.

[alteran]

This really is a significant development (at least relative to my experience in the pleistocene era). My kid lives in Chapel Hill (still in school) and goes to Durham all the time for extracurricular activities. Back in my day no one ever did that, except maybe to go to Bullocks BBQ.

I remember living in Durham as a young man and almost ALWAYS having to go to Raleigh or Chapel Hill to have an evening out.

Not anymore.

[BD80]

This really is a significant development (at least relative to my experience in the pleistocene era). My kid lives in Chapel Hill (still in school) and goes to Durham all the time for extracurricular activities. Back in my day no one ever did that, except maybe to go to Bullocks BBQ.

inconceivable

[ricks68]

This really is a significant development (at least relative to my experience in the pleistocene era). My kid lives in Chapel Hill (still in school) and goes to Durham all the time for extracurricular activities. Back in my day no one ever did that, except maybe to go to Bullocks BBQ.

Or the Criterion.😉😈

ricks

[FadedTackyShirt]

This really is a significant development (at least relative to my experience in the pleistocene era). My kid lives in Chapel Hill (still in school) and goes to Durham all the time for extracurricular activities. Back in my day no one ever did that, except maybe to go to Bullocks BBQ.

Our original NC BBQ bwana/classmate introduced us to Bullock's but has since been converted to Allen & Son. Their days/hours have been seriously curtailed, are they winding down?

We closed down Crunkleton recently and Gary said he's opening an outpost in Charlotte. Would simplify my annual pilgrimage travel and keep our royal blue blood pure: fly into CLT, hit up Crunkleton, detour through Lexington on the way to CIS, stay downtown, and fly out of RDU.

[Aziggazoomba]

Our original NC BBQ bwana/classmate introduced us to Bullock's but has since been converted to Allen & Son. Their days/hours have been seriously curtailed, are they winding down?

We closed down Crunkleton recently and Gary said he's opening an outpost in Charlotte. Would simplify my annual pilgrimage travel and keep our royal blue blood pure: fly into CLT, hit up Crunkleton, detour through Lexington on the way to CIS, stay downtown, and fly out of RDU.

Blood purity is overrated.

[Aziggazoomba]

"Love the sinner, hate the sin."

I actually have several friends and acquaintances with UNC ties who are reasonable, educated people. We can talk respectfully about our teams and playfully rib each other. But when the conversation turns to their decades of academic fraud, they go into complete denial mode. They honestly believe this was just a few easy classes like they have at every school, and think that the NCAA is conducting a witch hunt against them.

But imagine how much this would suck if the shoe were on your foot. We are all humans and (to the extent the scenario blows, and I think we can stipulate that this one does, and biblically) are therefore prone to some degree of denial. I guess what i'm suggesting is the appropriateness of empathy here, but I know this is the wrong audience and forum (and time!) for that. so maybe strike that.

For my part, it's been utterly horrific and shameful, and I want nothing more than to have it over with. I'd be inclined to take my medicine and move on.

Beyond that, I really don't think it's really in rest of the world's (read: State or Duke--especially State--I can't even. . . ) best interests that UNC be burned to the ground (which is often what the desire seems to be).

[FadedTackyShirt]

But imagine how much this would suck if the shoe were on your foot. We are all humans and (to the extent the scenario blows, and I think we can stipulate that this one does, and biblically) are therefore prone to some degree of denial. I guess what i'm suggesting is the appropriateness of empathy here, but I know this is the wrong audience and forum (and time!) for that. so maybe strike that.

For my part, it's been utterly horrific and shameful, and I want nothing more than to have it over with. I'd be inclined to take my medicine and move on.

Beyond that, I really don't think it's really in rest of the world's (read: State or Duke--especially State--I can't even. . . ) best interests that UNC be burned to the ground (which is often what the desire seems to be).

Just have to back away slowly when pastel Kellyannes try and spin the whole thing away. Would still suck if it happened at ECU, but they've never even aspired to become a great university.

I'm a Californian, but definitely care about North Carolina, the Triangle, and the ACC. Settle the matter once and for all with appropriate punishment and move on.

[Aziggazoomba]

Just have to back away slowly when pastel Kellyannes try and spin the whole thing away. Would still suck if it happened at ECU, but they've never even aspired to become a great university.

I'm a Californian, but definitely care about North Carolina, the Triangle, and the ACC. Settle the matter once and for all with appropriate punishment and move on.

I hear you and agree 100%. (The only thing I loathe more than kellyanne is the fact that the scandal happened. There really is no defense for it, and it makes me sick every time I think of it.)

(But at the same time I understand one's urge to fight back when the existence of something one dearly loves is at stake.)

ETA: I wish I were a Californian.

[BandAlum83]

Thanks but actually I'm going to stick with the "k"--it seems to fit these days.

(Besides, I thought you folk were favorably inclined towards that letter.)

Only when used in upper case.

Have you been made aware of PPB guidelines?

[Aziggazoomba]

Only when used in upper case.

Have you been made aware of PPB guidelines?

No but I'm pretty sure I know where you are going with that so don't worry, I'll shut up now. Thx.

[BandAlum83]

At least y'all still have the option to return to a quality college dive if you wish. Not ashamed to admit I got weepy big time when the Hideaway closed.

The Crunkleton is a cozy craft cocktail Yoko among our crew. Awesome spot for a few high end post game pops and a easy walk to the Carolina Inn.

New downtown Durham drinking, dining, and lodging options plus Uber make it a much better option post-Duke games, but can't quit Crunkleton. Freaking bar is sowing discord and chaos among aging mop top royal blue drunks.

WAIT........The Hideaway closed?????

[BandAlum83]

This really is a significant development (at least relative to my experience in the pleistocene era). My kid lives in Chapel Hill (still in school) and goes to Durham all the time for extracurricular activities. Back in my day no one ever did that, except maybe to go to Bullocks BBQ.

"Joke" commonly said during my years:

Q: What's there to do in Durham on a Saturday night?
A: Go to Chapel Hill

I learned to shag at Purdy' s on Franklin Street.

Here's a bit of nostalgia for you:

Chapel Hill Fans Paint Town Blue (https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1982/03/30/chapel-hill-fans-paint-town-blue/52128f84-c4aa-4817-9575-eed2c2b4f404/?utm_term=.3ad08d57261d)

I was there that night with spray-paint can in hand, wearing the UNC sweatshirt of a girlfriend's brother. She lived in Chapel Hill, but went to UNC. She came home for the game and I watched the game at her house with her family.

I did things that night that would get me arrested for vandalism or destruction of property on any other night.

Fun times!

[FadedTackyShirt]

WAIT....The Hideaway closed?????

Closed ~5-7 years ago, RIP. Thanks for reopening an old wound.

[Aziggazoomba]

"Joke" commonly said during my years:

Q: What's there to do in Durham on a Saturday night?
A: Go to Chapel Hill

I learned to shag at Purdy' s on Franklin Street.

Here's a bit of nostalgia for you:

Chapel Hill Fans Paint Town Blue (https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1982/03/30/chapel-hill-fans-paint-town-blue/52128f84-c4aa-4817-9575-eed2c2b4f404/?utm_term=.3ad08d57261d)

I was there that night with spray-paint can in hand, wearing the UNC sweatshirt of a girlfriend's brother. She lived in Chapel Hill, but went to UNC. She came home for the game and I watched the game at her house with her family.

I did things that night that would get me arrested for vandalism or destruction of property on any other night.

Fun times!

Thanks for posting that!

Yes, I was out there that night--it was my sophomore year. I remember being half-covered in blue paint, sitting on the rock wall at McCorkle Place watching the street-cleaning crew roll in around 4:00 am. I went to my 8:00 class (I figured I was awake so may as well), and the professor sent home the ten of us that showed up. (I suppose some wisenheimers here might see in that--the class cancellation--a harbinger of certain things to come. ; ] )

[BandAlum83]

Thanks for posting that!

Yes, I was out there that night--it was my sophomore year. I remember being half-covered in blue paint, sitting on the rock wall at McCorkle Place watching the street-cleaning crew roll in around 4:00 am. I went to my 8:00 class (I figured I was awake so may as well), and the professor sent home the ten of us that showed up. (I suppose some wisenheimers here might see in that--the class cancellation--a harbinger of certain things to come. ; ] )

Don't think this means we can get all chummy, or something. My GF was hot, and it was fun to paint sh#*. ;)

I was on the brickyard the next year. That was fun also. I wish I could have been on campus for one of our FIVE championships.

So looks like you're one year behind my year.

[OldPhiKap]

Closed ~5-7 years ago, RIP. Thanks for reopening an old wound.

Wow. Next you're gonna tell me that they closed the bar and grille in the basement of Gilbert-Adams on East.

[Fish80]

inconceivable

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

[dukebluesincebirth]

Thanks for posting that!

Yes, I was out there that night--it was my sophomore year. I remember being half-covered in blue paint, sitting on the rock wall at McCorkle Place watching the street-cleaning crew roll in around 4:00 am. I went to my 8:00 class (I figured I was awake so may as well), and the professor sent home the ten of us that showed up. (I suppose some wisenheimers here might see in that--the class cancellation--a harbinger of certain things to come. ; ] )

As long as the class was offered to non-athletes, I see no problem at all.

[jv001]

But imagine how much this would suck if the shoe were on your foot. We are all humans and (to the extent the scenario blows, and I think we can stipulate that this one does, and biblically) are therefore prone to some degree of denial. I guess what i'm suggesting is the appropriateness of empathy here, but I know this is the wrong audience and forum (and time!) for that. so maybe strike that.

For my part, it's been utterly horrific and shameful, and I want nothing more than to have it over with. I'd be inclined to take my medicine and move on.
Beyond that, I really don't think it's really in rest of the world's (read: State or Duke--especially State--I can't even. . . ) best interests that UNC be burned to the ground (which is often what the desire seems to be).

Sporks for not trying to whitewash the issue like some Carolina fans. The old "everyone does it" doesn't ring true. Most of those that have done it, have paid the price and got on with their lives. If Duke had done this for as long as Unc, I probably would have chosen another team/school or would have stopped watching college basketball all together. Good to have one tarheel fan on this site that admits they did something wrong and should pay the price. GoDuke!

[UNCfan]

I think most UNC fans are sad and embarrassed about this. We want it to be over, but we do not want UNC sports to disappear. I do not think that any punishment will be enough for the ABC crowd. Its been a long few years. Reputation has taken a major hit, recruiting is way down, and a penalty has yet to be given. Don't fool yourself and say you wouldn't be a fan of your university if it had the same trouble.

[TKG]

Wow. Next you're gonna tell me that they closed the bar and grille in the basement of Gilbert-Adams on East.

Well, at least we can still buy beer with points!

[BD80]

I think most UNC fans are sad and embarrassed about this. We want it to be over, but we do not want UNC sports to disappear. I do not think that any punishment will be enough for the ABC crowd. Its been a long few years. Reputation has taken a major hit, recruiting is way down, and a penalty has yet to be given. Don't fool yourself and say you wouldn't be a fan of your university if it had the same trouble.

We WOULDN'T have the same AD, coach and president!

[BandAlum83]

I think most UNC fans are sad and embarrassed about this. We want it to be over, but we do not want UNC sports to disappear. I do not think that any punishment will be enough for the ABC crowd. Its been a long few years. Reputation has taken a major hit, recruiting is way down, and a penalty has yet to be given. Don't fool yourself and say you wouldn't be a fan of your university if it had the same trouble.

Let me make something very clear here. I won't claim to speak for every diploma holding Dukie, but I imagine 99.9% would agree with what I am about to say:

I would be utterly APPALLED if this were to happen at Duke! I value my degree infinitly more than I value championships. I do not want my diploma devalued at the feet of the sports gods.

I would pull any and all financial support and call for a house cleaning and even a withdrawal from Division 1 sports.

The Model I would look to in the future would be similar to an Emory University.

While Sports is entertaining and something to rally around and be proud of, cheating has no place in my university.

[FadedTackyShirt]

Like Duke hoops, but love the University. Would be way more pissed about the academic side of the equation than the athletic part. Sat through a lot of crappy Duke football because of my friends than the quality of the game day experience. Had that happened at Duke, we'd take our meager talents (talking trash and getting sloppy weepy drunk) on the road to MLB, NFL, or NBA rather than support a-holes who hosed the University.

[UNCfan]

I 100% believe you feel this way. If it ever does, we can revisit this conversation.

[Stray Gator]

I think most UNC fans are sad and embarrassed about this. We want it to be over, but we do not want UNC sports to disappear. I do not think that any punishment will be enough for the ABC crowd. Its been a long few years. Reputation has taken a major hit, recruiting is way down, and a penalty has yet to be given. Don't fool yourself and say you wouldn't be a fan of your university if it had the same trouble.

I applaud your candor, and understand that it must be painful to witness the damage that this scandal has caused to the reputation of the school you love. As a rival fan, but a native of North Carolina with many friends and family members who are UNC alumni, I don't want to see debilitating penalties imposed; but I do believe that there should be punishment commensurate with the severity of the violations. First, it's not so much a "punishment" as a "rectification of the record," but I believe that at a minimum the NCAA must vacate any wins and titles that were obtained by the use of players who would have been ineligible to compete but for the fraudulent classes and other academic improprieties. While I also believe that the sports involved should in fairness be prohibited from participating in postseason competition for for a reasonable period and should suffer reduced scholarships as a penalty, it won't bother me a great deal if that does not happen, because I can comprehend -- even though I don't agree with -- the rationale that present-day players and coaches shouldn't be punished, and that fewer scholarships hurts potential future students. But one thing I would demand: That the UNC administration and athletic department make a public admission of wrongdoing and apologize to other members of the NCAA who were thereby deprived of the opportunity for fair competition.

Finally, regarding your statement about remaining a fan of your university, I can honestly say that I would continue to love Duke if there were a disclosure of similar transgressions. But I can also emphatically state that because of that love, and the sense of pride that goes with it, I would demand that those responsible for the misconduct be summarily dismissed; and with all due respect, I would call for the resignation or termination of any administrators or athletic department officials who engaged in the kind of shameless denial and deliberate obstruction of justice that we've seen (and continue to see) from the powers that be in Chapel Hill.

[Troublemaker]

Let me make something very clear here. I won't claim to speak for every diploma holding Dukie, but I imagine 99.9% would agree with what I am about to say:

I would be utterly APPALLED if this were to happen at Duke! I value my degree infinitly more than I value championships. I do not want my diploma devalued at the feet of the sports gods.


Maybe I'm cynical but there's no way that number is even close to accurate, even with your diploma stipulation. I think I agree with Zoomba below:


But imagine how much this would suck if the shoe were on your foot. We are all humans and (to the extent the scenario blows, and I think we can stipulate that this one does, and biblically) are therefore prone to some degree of denial. I guess what i'm suggesting is the appropriateness of empathy here, but I know this is the wrong audience and forum (and time!) for that. so maybe strike that.

We are all human, and so there are not typically going to be dramatic differences in reaction from school to school to the same situation.

However, BD80 brings up a great pertinent point below:


We WOULDN'T have the same AD, coach and president!

I think for most schools, the alumni/fans would follow the lead of the leaders. If the leaders handle it much differently from what UNC did, then the fans will tag along (or perhaps get dragged along, if one is cynical like me).

[arnie]

I think most UNC fans are sad and embarrassed about this. We want it to be over, but we do not want UNC sports to disappear. I do not think that any punishment will be enough for the ABC crowd. Its been a long few years. Reputation has taken a major hit, recruiting is way down, and a penalty has yet to be given. Don't fool yourself and say you wouldn't be a fan of your university if it had the same trouble.

I read your statement several times. So fans are sad, embarrassed and want it to be over. But I see nothing in your statement that you think that the athletic programs should be penalized. What penalties, if any, do think would be fair?

[Indoor66]

If a scheme involving academic fraud was discovered at Duke, I can almost guarantee that the entire top Administration would resign or be dismissed, as well as involved Academics, within days of the discovery.

The feckless behavior over on the Dump would NEVER be accepted by the INDEPENDENT Duke Board of Trustees.

[weezie]

...Reputation has taken a major hit, recruiting is way down, BUT a penalty has yet to be given...

Straightened that out for you.

Did I not warn you party people that the noise was getting out of hand on this thread, yea, pages ago?

Listen to your weezie when she is scolding you...

[UNCfan]

I wish the University would have been more proactive and gotten in front of this mess. The penalty for not doing so has made things worse in many ways. Loss of reputation and the reduction of landing elite basketball recruits. Also, hearing rival fans go on and on and on about it is tough to digest. No penalty will make that go away. You guys have this to hold over UNC forever.

So, it is difficult to say what penalties I find fair. UNC is doing everything they can to clear the mens basketball team. If the university is successful, then mens basketball will not be hit with a penalty. This will not sit well with rival fan bases and the negativity will grow and grow.

As the poster said above, the fans/alumni do not get to make these decisions, so I will not give you a hypothetical answer because it serves no purpose. Just know I am embarrassed and wish it never happened. Not just embarrassed that we were caught.

[Aziggazoomba]

I wish the University would have been more proactive and gotten in front of this mess. The penalty for not doing so has made things worse in many ways. Loss of reputation and the reduction of landing elite basketball recruits. Also, hearing rival fans go on and on and on about it is tough to digest. No penalty will make that go away. You guys have this to hold over UNC forever.

So, it is difficult to say what penalties I find fair. UNC is doing everything they can to clear the mens basketball team. If the university is successful, then mens basketball will not be hit with a penalty. This will not sit well with rival fan bases and the negativity will grow and grow.

As the poster said above, the fans/alumni do not get to make these decisions, so I will not give you a hypothetical answer because it serves no purpose. Just know I am embarrassed and wish it never happened. Not just embarrassed that we were caught.

I didn't mean to start a row. (Actually I guess someone else brought it up. I also suppose it's unavoidable.)

I think UNCfan and I are pretty much on the same page. Beyond that, as far as school presidents, ADs and coaches go, in many respects I live in the past and in this regard especially--I long for the days of William Friday and folks of his ilk, when this never would have had a chance of happening.

Looking forward to tomorrow. Good luck (which I say because good manners compel it) and Go Heels.

[FadedTackyShirt]

Personally only avidly follow 4 college sports rivalries: Cal/Stanford, Duke/Carolina, Army/Navy, and Harvard/Yale because it's way more than just sports in all of those rivalries. Have personal skin in the game at three of the four rivalries, but have multiple friends (family, friends, high school, college, grad school, work) from all of those schools. UNC done f'ed up and the screw up affects way more than just UNC sports. Couldn't care less if NC State or Clemson were involved and certainly didn't wish this on UNC.

[RPS]

Personally only avidly follow 4 college sports rivalries: Cal/Stanford, Duke/Carolina, Army/Navy, and Harvard/Yale because it's way more than just sports in all of those rivalries. Have personal skin in the game at three of the four rivalries, but have multiple friends (family, friends, high school, college, grad school, work) from all of those schools. UNC done f'ed up and the screw up affects way more than just UNC sports. Couldn't care less if NC State or Clemson were involved and certainly didn't wish this on UNC.
I follow the same four but have personal skin in only two. But my youngest appears in this video.


https://youtu.be/uPTfsgHTiFY

[Aziggazoomba]

Personally only avidly follow 4 college sports rivalries: Cal/Stanford, Duke/Carolina, Army/Navy, and Harvard/Yale because it's way more than just sports in all of those rivalries. Have personal skin in the game at three of the four rivalries, but have multiple friends (family, friends, high school, college, grad school, work) from all of those schools. UNC done f'ed up and the screw up affects way more than just UNC sports. Couldn't care less if NC State or Clemson were involved and certainly didn't wish this on UNC.

The only other one I follow (for family reasons) is UCLA/USC.

Go Bruins.

[FadedTackyShirt]

I follow the same four but have personal skin in only two. But my youngest appears in this video.


https://youtu.be/uPTfsgHTiFY

Heartwarming video. That memorable Big Game was marred by the delayed overreaction by the honorary Captain's wife. Mrs Tiger should have gone after Luck with a golf club for the untimely late interception.

Poor form, but completely understandable to favor the golden child. The Brokaw model is much more empathetic and inspiring. They love their cardinal colored skeleton every bit as much as the more virtuous/scholarly daughters in various shades of blue.

Tom and the one-time Miss Rocky Raccoon were sitting with Mr and Mrs Roger Staubach at a parents' weekend football game while I was at Duke.

[FadedTackyShirt]

The only other one I follow (for family reasons) is UCLA/USC.

Go Bruins.

Perfectly fine JV rivalry. Your family must really be into pastel Easter eggs. The Condoms were/are the undisputed Great Satan of the Pac 8/10/12.

[Steven43]

Heartwarming video. That memorable Big Game was marred by the delayed overreaction by the honorary Captain's wife. Mrs Tiger should have gone after Luck with a golf club for the untimely late interception.

Poor form, but completely understandable to favor the golden child. The Brokaw model is much more empathetic and inspiring. They love their cardinal colored skeleton every bit as much as the more virtuous/scholarly daughters in various shades of blue.

Tom and the one-time Miss Rocky Raccoon were sitting with Mr and Mrs Roger Staubach at a parents' weekend football game while I was at Duke.

Would you mind translating your mysterious words in order to provide actual meaning to those of us not in the know?

[Aziggazoomba]

Perfectly fine JV rivalry. Your family must really be into pastel Easter eggs. The Condoms were/are the undisputed Great Satan of the Pac 8/10/12.

A Trojan is good only once, but a Bruin is good forever.

(In fairness, in football it rates better than a JV rivalry.)

[PackMan97]

I think most UNC fans are sad and embarrassed about this. We want it to be over, but we do not want UNC sports to disappear. I do not think that any punishment will be enough for the ABC crowd. Its been a long few years. Reputation has taken a major hit, recruiting is way down, and a penalty has yet to be given. Don't fool yourself and say you wouldn't be a fan of your university if it had the same trouble.

Your fracking Athletic Director is saying you guys did nothing wrong and shouldn't be punished! The corruption at UNC goes so deep that you guys lie, cheat, deflect, deny, obfuscate and do anything for one more season. I am a fan of NC State because when faced with the same choices we made the hard choices, the choices that harmed us competitively, yet we cleaned house and changed our culture. Unlike UNC which continues to embrace playing it fast and loose academically.

There is no punishment that will be enough because there literally is no punishment that can be harsh enough for the cheating you guys have done. Should it be found out that NC State has run a fraudulent academic department for the sole purpose of keeping athletes elibile through fake classes I would drop NC State sports like a rock.

[Aziggazoomba]

Your fracking Athletic Director is saying you guys did nothing wrong and shouldn't be punished! The corruption at UNC goes so deep that you guys lie, cheat, deflect, deny, obfuscate and do anything for one more season. I am a fan of NC State because when faced with the same choices we made the hard choices, the choices that harmed us competitively, yet we cleaned house and changed our culture. Unlike UNC which continues to embrace playing it fast and loose academically.

There is no punishment that will be enough because there literally is no punishment that can be harsh enough for the cheating you guys have done. Should it be found out that NC State has run a fraudulent academic department for the sole purpose of keeping athletes elibile through fake classes I would drop NC State sports like a rock.

I find it amusing that up until now this was a civil and measured discussion between two diametrically opposed camps with sharply diverging views. Pretty nice, really. Thanks to the forum's hosts for the moderate tone and good humor (which I appreciate).

But I guess the good stuff never lasts forever.

Good luck tonite, guys.

Go Heels.

[OldPhiKap]

I find it amusing that up until now this was a civil and measured discussion between two diametrically opposed camps with sharply diverging views. Pretty nice, really. Thanks to the forum's hosts for the moderate tone and good humor (which I appreciate).

But I guess the good stuff never lasts forever.

Good luck tonite, guys.

Go Heels.

PackMan, as you might guess from the name, is from a third camp.

Hope we have a clean, injury-free game, and may the best team win. Thanks for your posts, and again you are welcome back any time. (Okay, right after the game tonight one way or the other might be a little touchy -- as I am sure you understand!)

-- OPK

[Steven43]

Brice hurt his back early on in the season, and I think he may still be out.

["graduated"--yeah--good one.]

I wish Brice had hurt his back prior to each of the last 5 or 6 games versus Duke--that dude freaking killed us! Played like an NBA top 5 pick whenever he saw Duke blue. And It seemed like he was never going to leave school.

Y'all don't have a player like that on the current roster. That's probably the main reason I'm confident Duke will prevail tonight. I would wish you good luck, but I wouldn't mean it.😃

[Aziggazoomba]

PackMan, as you might guess from the name, is from a third camp.

Hope we have a clean, injury-free game, and may the best team win. Thanks for your posts, and again you are welcome back any time. (Okay, right after the game tonight one way or the other might be a little touchy -- as I am sure you understand!)

-- OPK

Yes, I noted that, and thanks (and totally understand--though I'm thinking you all will come away from Round #1 with smiles on your faces).

[OldPhiKap]

Yes, I noted that, and thanks (and totally understand--though I'm thinking you all will come away from Round #1 with smiles on your faces).

We shall see. I generally figure on a season split every year. It's just a matter of who draws first blood.

[Steven43]

I am a fan of NC State because when faced with the same choices we made the hard choices, the choices that harmed us competitively, yet we cleaned house and changed our culture.
Hey Pack, my daughter is a junior at a private school in Durham. She's strong academically, but not one of those 100% grade-focused, elite-school-obsessed kids. Nothing against those kids; in fact I admire their single-mindedness and willingness to do whatever it takes (as long as it's ethical) to get what they want. It's the way the game at the highest level is played these days.

Anyway, Duke is almost assuredly out of her reach😂, but she probably has a decent shot at UNC. What do you honestly think of NC State for a prospective student? Do you have first-hand knowledge? Whenever I am around State it seems like a pretty cool environment.

By the way, I get where you're coming from with your comments about UNC's cheating. If true, it is both appalling and disillusioning. I'm not sure how I would handle it were I the one to mete out punishment. One of my main goals would be to deal with it in a way to where they would never want to risk doing something like that again.

I really want UNC to be great academically. I had always believed they were. This cheating scandal has shaken me. I hope for the sake of the state of North Carolina that UNC comes to their senses and puts the goal of great academics at the forefront of every decision they make going forward.

[devildeac]

Hey Pack, my daughter is a junior at a private school in Durham. She's strong academically, but not one of those 100% grade-focused, elite-school-obsessed kids. Nothing against those kids; in fact I admire their single-mindedness and willingness to do whatever it takes (as long as it's ethical) to get what they want. It's the way the game at the highest level is played these days.

Anyway, Duke is almost assuredly out of her reach��, but she probably has a decent shot at UNC. What do you honestly think of NC State for a prospective student? Do you have first-hand knowledge? Whenever I am around State it seems like a pretty cool environment.

By the way, I get where you're coming from with your comments about UNC's cheating. If true, it is both appalling and disillusioning. I'm not sure how I would handle it were I the one to mete out punishment. One of my main goals would be to deal with it in a way to where they would never want to risk doing something like that again.

I really want UNC to be great academically. I had always believed they were. This cheating scandal has shaken me. I hope for the sake of the state of North Carolina that UNC comes to their senses and puts the goal of great academics at the forefront of every decision they make going forward.

I've got second hand info on the NCSU student thing if that helps. Really good friends and former neighbors of ours just finished sending their son through the 5 yr/coop CE (?) program at NCSU and were highly impressed. Fine young man now working in an engineering/accounting job in Atlanta and values his NCSU degree greatly. His sister went to unc a few years earlier and none of his family hold that against her. :p

[BD80]

A Trojan is good only once, ...

Never heard the story of the Scots Guardsman that walked into the pharmacy ...

[UNCfan]

Your fracking Athletic Director is saying you guys did nothing wrong and shouldn't be punished! The corruption at UNC goes so deep that you guys lie, cheat, deflect, deny, obfuscate and do anything for one more season. I am a fan of NC State because when faced with the same choices we made the hard choices, the choices that harmed us competitively, yet we cleaned house and changed our culture. Unlike UNC which continues to embrace playing it fast and loose academically.

There is no punishment that will be enough because there literally is no punishment that can be harsh enough for the cheating you guys have done. Should it be found out that NC State has run a fraudulent academic department for the sole purpose of keeping athletes elibile through fake classes I would drop NC State sports like a rock.

Your rage and frustration is obvious. As you state above, no punishment will satisfy you. UNC's AD has a job and it is to resolve the NCAA issue with as little penalty as possible. Every AD would do the same. It is their job. I know in your perfect world, a University would act honorably at any cost, but that isn't the case. You will continue to be angry and fight some sort of battle with UNC as long as you are a fan of NCSU.

[PackMan97]

Hey Pack, my daughter is a junior at a private school in Durham. She's strong academically, but not one of those 100% grade-focused, elite-school-obsessed kids. Nothing against those kids; in fact I admire their single-mindedness and willingness to do whatever it takes (as long as it's ethical) to get what they want. It's the way the game at the highest level is played these days.

Anyway, Duke is almost assuredly out of her reach😂, but she probably has a decent shot at UNC. What do you honestly think of NC State for a prospective student? Do you have first-hand knowledge? Whenever I am around State it seems like a pretty cool environment.

Congrats on raising what sounds like a great kid.

Keep in mind, my information is 20 years out of date. I will say of NC State the same I'll say of almost any university. It is what the student makes of it. If a student wants to party, slack off and just get a degree there is likely a place for that. If a student wants to work hard, take challenging courses and excel, there is a place for that. I was a double major in computer science and computer engineering and went out of my way to take hard courses. I enjoyed the heck out of it. I made life long friends, met my future spouse (as a freshmen, though we didn't start dating until she went off to law schoo almost a decade later) and the past two jobs I've gotten have been through folks I met at NC State. NC State graduates have founded some of the biggest companies in the area...Red Hat, SAS, CREE among others.

I will say that one of the things that is often overlooked for a school is the strength of the peer network you develop. In that regards a place like Duke excels. They pull students nationally, they are typically more affluent, have better contacts in the business world, etc. If you daughter is wanting to put down roots in NC, or even in VA/SC then NC State has a strong network for those purposes.

Among public universities, an NC State education has one of the best Returns on Investments in the southeast (I think GT has the best in this region).

[devil84]

Hey Pack, my daughter is a junior at a private school in Durham. She's strong academically, but not one of those 100% grade-focused, elite-school-obsessed kids. Nothing against those kids; in fact I admire their single-mindedness and willingness to do whatever it takes (as long as it's ethical) to get what they want. It's the way the game at the highest level is played these days.

Anyway, Duke is almost assuredly out of her reach😂, but she probably has a decent shot at UNC. What do you honestly think of NC State for a prospective student? Do you have first-hand knowledge? Whenever I am around State it seems like a pretty cool environment.

My daughter and son-in-law both have degrees from NCSU, daughter in Psychology (now has her Master's in speech language pathology at UNC-G) and my son-in-law in industrial design. Both had a high quality education and a fantastic collegiate experience. My son went to State his first year before transferring to Wake Forest (was premed, got his Masters from UNC and is now studying for his PhD in sports and exercise science at UNC-G). State didn't have the course of study/environment he desired.

All of the aforementioned schools will provide a fantastic educational experience. It really depends on your course of study. While State has a good pre-med program, other schools may or may be better suited based on the student's needs (unless the rest of the environment is a good fit); likewise, if you want to be in industrial design, State will be your absolute best bet of the schools.

Pick the school based on the program of study. PM me if you want more info; I don't want to derail this thread. :)

[BD80]

... UNC's AD has a job and it is to resolve the NCAA issue with as little penalty as possible. ...

Aha! We may have found the root of the problem!

Many believe that an AD's job to ensure that the athletic department OF AN EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTION operates within the governing rules AND in keeping with the goals and principles OF THE EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTION.

Too many (everyone?) at unc believe the Athletic Department is a branch of the university (if that term even applies to unc any more) independent of the "educational" branch. They would argue that happens with respect to athletes has no bearing on the education side of the university and should have no bearing on the academic reputation or accreditation of the university.

To unc fans, the AD's SOLE job is to hang as many banners as possible (even if they have to be cooked up in a bakery).

I disagree

[OldPhiKap]

Your rage and frustration is obvious. As you state above, no punishment will satisfy you. UNC's AD has a job and it is to resolve the NCAA issue with as little penalty as possible. Every AD would do the same. It is their job. I know in your perfect world, a University would act honorably at any cost, but that isn't the case. You will continue to be angry and fight some sort of battle with UNC as long as you are a fan of NCSU.

Isn't compliance part of the job?

State fans have a right to be pissed. Thirty years ago, they got caught in a scandal; came clean; and took their medicine like big boys. UNC, well, not so much.

But since the OP came to talk hoops, I've tried to avoid this side argument.

[Aziggazoomba]

OK, I'm getting the medicine over with.

Good game. Allen/Kennard/Tatum are really special. A much deserved win, so way to go.

Looking forward to March 4.

Go Heels.

[CameronBlue]

OK, I'm getting the medicine over with.

Good game. Allen/Kennard/Tatum are really special. A much deserved win, so way to go.

Looking forward to March 4.

Go Heels.

Easy to say now that Duke has prevailed but Justin Jackson was a beast and Maye is another in a long line of UNC bigs that should be middling D-1 pine riders that UNC has coached into stalwart contributors. (But you guys shouldn't have cheated.) Still, great game and (I hate the word) classy post.

[flyingdutchdevil]

OK, I'm getting the medicine over with.

Good game. Allen/Kennard/Tatum are really special. A much deserved win, so way to go.

Looking forward to March 4.

Go Heels.

I really like you. Thanks for doing that. Great game.

Go duke.

[JBDuke]

OK, I'm getting the medicine over with.

Good game. Allen/Kennard/Tatum are really special. A much deserved win, so way to go.

Looking forward to March 4.

Go Heels.

Thanks for the classy gesture. I think there's some good news here for you guys. Pinson looks like he's gonna be just fine, and he'll be a big part of the Heels' future success. Jackson looked every bit the all-conference player I suspect he'll be. And you guys had some folks step up nicely to fill in for Hicks. I won't wish the team well, but I don't like seeing anyone injured. Here's hoping he's back soon - but I'll be fine if he chokes away the game for you guys when we come to Chapel Hill. :-)

As an opponent, I don't think it's a winning strategy to count on Carolina hitting just about 50% from the line. We won't see that much more.

[elvis14]

OK, I'm getting the medicine over with.

Good game. Allen/Kennard/Tatum are really special. A much deserved win, so way to go.

Looking forward to March 4.

Go Heels.

Stop by sometime and talk hoops in some of the non-UNC threads if you see something interesting. Have a good night, your boys played well tonight.

[weezie]

See ya agrozimmbazooza! Until we meet again...

[Law Prof]

OK, I'm getting the medicine over with.

Good game. Allen/Kennard/Tatum are really special. A much deserved win, so way to go.

Looking forward to March 4?



Did you just say, "Please sir, may I have another?":cool:

[throatybeard]

I moved away from North Carolina thirteen years ago and I could swear that during every single one of them somebody or another told me Allen & Sons was closing soon. I'm glad to hear it isn't accurate yet, even though I don't eat critters anymore.

Aziggazoomba has always been an awesome, non-trolling poster, back to the Sagarmatha dual-codes-to-post days.

[Indoor66]

OK, I'm getting the medicine over with.

Good game. Allen/Kennard/Tatum are really special. A much deserved win, so way to go.

Looking forward to March 4.

Go Heels.

Via con Dios. It was a good game. It took me back to a time before I knew that there was rampant cheating going on over there. Oh, what could have been. So sad.

[OldPhiKap]

OK, I'm getting the medicine over with.

Good game. Allen/Kennard/Tatum are really special. A much deserved win, so way to go.

Looking forward to March 4.

Go Heels.

Pretty evenly-matched game. Chapel Hill in a few weeks should be equally entertaining.

[BD80]

Pretty evenly-matched game. Chapel Hill in a few weeks should be equally entertaining.

I hope so, but we shot lights out and the heels couldn't hit free throws and it was still a close game.

[OldPhiKap]

I hope so, but we shot lights out and the heels couldn't hit free throws and it was still a close game.

Yup. And I would not bank on outrebounding the Heels again either.

[Troublemaker]

Pretty evenly-matched game. Chapel Hill in a few weeks should be equally entertaining.


I hope so, but we shot lights out and the heels couldn't hit free throws and it was still a close game.


Yup. And I would not bank on outrebounding the Heels again either.

Duke's going to continue to improve -- maybe at a very fast pace -- in the intervening 3+ weeks, though.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I hope so, but we shot lights out and the heels couldn't hit free throws and it was still a close game.

Heels shot "light out"-er tho too.

[Aziggazoomba]

Thanks for all of the kind responses. I appreciate it.

I'm still smarting, but to be honest I wasn't disheartened and demoralized (to use Justice Gorsuch's words) with the loss. It was a really good game ("Both teams played hard" to quote one of your favorites, Rasheed Wallace) and in any event life goes on.

I can't resist making one rejoinder (with all due respect) regarding the reference to all the cheating going on on Chapel Hill. I shouldn't allow myself to be baited, but I can't help myself.

I'm not defending what happened (as I've said before, I'm utterly sickened by it), and I would never suggest that there shouldn't be consequences/punishment for it (it's obvious to me that there should be--I just wish we could get on with it), but I do hope and wish that the negative statements made (by ABCers generally) are expressed with the acknowledgement that the cheating isn't going on now and hasn't been for several years.

That's not to trivialize it--again, it was disgraceful. Justice needs to be done. But sometimes the vitriol suggests a reaction to current behavior, which isn't right.

I suppose there might be a reaction to the school's current strategy in dealing with it. That, I sort of understand. But the current administration is (as UNCFAN said) is doing what it is charged to do--to navigate the University through the situation with as little damage as possible. (I myself would have taken a path of less resistance to put things behind--but let's face it--no one in this day and age really ever does that anymore--everything is a grand battle--especially where dollars are at stake, to say nothing of the culture of conflict that has taken hold in our society.) It's not realistic anymore to expect anyone to just lay down and take what's coming to them.

Anyway, mainly I just want to underscore what I would hope is obvious--there isn't an issue regarding current compliance. I suspect the school now (and for the last X years) is being and has been run about as cleanly as is possible.

That's all I'm going to say about it (and with all due respect I likely won't return any time soon because I don't want to get drawn into a discussion of it--again, it makes my stomach hurt). Though I hate what was done, I love the institution and can't help being an advocate for it where it's appropriate.

Again, great game and congratulations.

Go Heels.

[BD80]

...

That's all I'm going to say about it (and with all due respect I likely won't return any time soon because I don't want to get drawn into a discussion of it--again, it makes my stomach hurt). Though I hate what was done, I love the institution and can't help being an advocate for it where it's appropriate.

Again, great game and congratulations.

Go Heels.

You came in peace, go heel, in peace.

I, for one, welcome your return.

[devildeac]

Thanks for all of the kind responses. I appreciate it.

I'm still smarting, but to be honest I wasn't disheartened and demoralized (to use Justice Gorsuch's words) with the loss. It was a really good game ("Both teams played hard" to quote one of your favorites, Rasheed Wallace) and in any event life goes on.

I can't resist making one rejoinder (with all due respect) regarding the reference to all the cheating going on on Chapel Hill. I shouldn't allow myself to be baited, but I can't help myself.

I'm not defending what happened (as I've said before, I'm utterly sickened by it), and I would never suggest that there shouldn't be consequences/punishment for it (it's obvious to me that there should be--I just wish we could get on with it), but I do hope and wish that the negative statements made (by ABCers generally) are expressed with the acknowledgement that the cheating isn't going on now and hasn't been for several years.

That's not to trivialize it--again, it was disgraceful. Justice needs to be done. But sometimes the vitriol suggests a reaction to current behavior, which isn't right.

I suppose there might be a reaction to the school's current strategy in dealing with it. That, I sort of understand. But the current administration is (as UNCFAN said) is doing what it is charged to do--to navigate the University through the situation with as little damage as possible. (I myself would have taken a path of less resistance to put things behind--but let's face it--no one in this day and age really ever does that anymore--everything is a grand battle--especially where dollars are at stake, to say nothing of the culture of conflict that has taken hold in our society.) It's not realistic anymore to expect anyone to just lay down and take what's coming to them.

Anyway, mainly I just want to underscore what I would hope is obvious--there isn't an issue regarding current compliance. I suspect the school now (and for the last X years) is being and has been run about as cleanly as is possible.

That's all I'm going to say about it (and with all due respect I likely won't return any time soon because I don't want to get drawn into a discussion of it--again, it makes my stomach hurt). Though I hate what was done, I love the institution and can't help being an advocate for it where it's appropriate.

Again, great game and congratulations.

Go Heels.

I've already sporked you for a "welcome back to DBR" and can't do so again for this very thoughtful post. Thanks for visiting in a sane, polite, rational, controlled, civil, non-trolling manner. Please visit again soon. It was quite a game last PM. Not sure if an espn classic-type contest but pretty well played on both sides, and of course, I'm happier this AM with the proper shade of blue prevailing.

[bluedev_92]

Duke's going to continue to improve -- maybe at a very fast pace -- in the intervening 3+ weeks, though.

Agreed. Don't forget UNC also shot lights out, albeit not as many threes. They may be hard pressed to shoot that same % again as well. However, the points may come in a different fashion...

[rasputin]

Thanks for all of the kind responses. I appreciate it.

I'm still smarting, but to be honest I wasn't disheartened and demoralized (to use Justice Gorsuch's words) with the loss. It was a really good game ("Both teams played hard" to quote one of your favorites, Rasheed Wallace) and in any event life goes on.

I can't resist making one rejoinder (with all due respect) regarding the reference to all the cheating going on on Chapel Hill. I shouldn't allow myself to be baited, but I can't help myself.

I'm not defending what happened (as I've said before, I'm utterly sickened by it), and I would never suggest that there shouldn't be consequences/punishment for it (it's obvious to me that there should be--I just wish we could get on with it), but I do hope and wish that the negative statements made (by ABCers generally) are expressed with the acknowledgement that the cheating isn't going on now and hasn't been for several years.

That's not to trivialize it--again, it was disgraceful. Justice needs to be done. But sometimes the vitriol suggests a reaction to current behavior, which isn't right.

I suppose there might be a reaction to the school's current strategy in dealing with it. That, I sort of understand. But the current administration is (as UNCFAN said) is doing what it is charged to do--to navigate the University through the situation with as little damage as possible. (I myself would have taken a path of less resistance to put things behind--but let's face it--no one in this day and age really ever does that anymore--everything is a grand battle--especially where dollars are at stake, to say nothing of the culture of conflict that has taken hold in our society.) It's not realistic anymore to expect anyone to just lay down and take what's coming to them.

Anyway, mainly I just want to underscore what I would hope is obvious--there isn't an issue regarding current compliance. I suspect the school now (and for the last X years) is being and has been run about as cleanly as is possible.

That's all I'm going to say about it (and with all due respect I likely won't return any time soon because I don't want to get drawn into a discussion of it--again, it makes my stomach hurt). Though I hate what was done, I love the institution and can't help being an advocate for it where it's appropriate.

Again, great game and congratulations.

Go Heels.

The thoughtful response is appreciated. I should say that I was among those who bristled at the notion that the AD's job was to extract the program from whatever trouble it was in, rather than fix the trouble. In any event, even if, as you contend, there isn't a compliance issue going forward, this wouldn't have been the case if the program hadn't gotten caught.

Welcome back to DBR. I also remember you from the prehistoric times on this board.

[OldPhiKap]

I suppose there might be a reaction to the school's current strategy in dealing with it.

I think that's the main thing for a lot of folks. The administration strenuously argues that what it did was permissible and proper. Ergo, there is little reason to think that they accept the magnitude of what they did, or even why it was wrong.

It would be different if they came out; said they were wrong; and that they are willing to accept punishment (reserving the right to argue that the punishment should be on the low end of the spectrum). It is hard to find a belief that the problem has been rooted out, though, when there is little to no contrition from the administration.

That's my two cents, at least. Again, I have avoided the issue on this thread given the OP's positive posting and obvious desire to talk hoops -- not controversy. I too hope to see you posting on other issues and threads going forward as the mood hits you.

Peace. Until March 4, of course. ;-)

[alteran]

I think most UNC fans are sad and embarrassed about this. We want it to be over, but we do not want UNC sports to disappear. I do not think that any punishment will be enough for the ABC crowd. Its been a long few years. Reputation has taken a major hit, recruiting is way down, and a penalty has yet to be given. Don't fool yourself and say you wouldn't be a fan of your university if it had the same trouble.

My impression as well. There's a few yahoos that don't care, but most fans I know seem to feel UNC shouldn't have fought against the NCAA but rather accepted significant sanctions and then put this behind them both athletically and reputationally.

[Indoor66]

My impression as well. There's a few yahoos that don't care, but most fans I know seem to feel UNC shouldn't have fought against the NCAA but rather accepted significant sanctions and then put this behind them both athletically and reputationally.

I agree with most of what you say. But the actions and attitudes displayed by the administration (both athletic and academic - and I don't separate them in this case) say to me that there is no remorse, no acceptance of any wrong and no assurance that such activities might be continued. For these reasons, I feel they deserve the most sever punishment available to the NCAA. unCheat has arrogantly thumbed its nose at all other schools that have faced and accepted their punishment for doing wrong. It is a repeat offending institution - as disclosed in the 1961 and 2010 or there about punishments. Yet they continued a scheme which, by their own admission, which continued for over 22 years.

unCheat fans can and may love their school but that does not excuse their school's behavior.

[PackMan97]

But sometimes the vitriol suggests a reaction to current behavior, which isn't right.

I suppose there might be a reaction to the school's current strategy in dealing with it.

[..snip..]

Anyway, mainly I just want to underscore what I would hope is obvious--there isn't an issue regarding current compliance. I suspect the school now (and for the last X years) is being and has been run about as cleanly as is possible.


I don't know who authored the original quote, but I think this quote sums up my feelings on the subject of Carolina, their honor, integrity and whether they are currently playing by the rules:


“We change our behavior when the pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of changing. Consequences give us the pain that motivates us to change.”


The only consequence UNC has faced over the past three decades is unparalled success across their athletic department.

I enjoyed the game as well :cool:

[ricks68]

I applaud your candor, and understand that it must be painful to witness the damage that this scandal has caused to the reputation of the school you love. As a rival fan, but a native of North Carolina with many friends and family members who are UNC alumni, I don't want to see debilitating penalties imposed; but I do believe that there should be punishment commensurate with the severity of the violations. First, it's not so much a "punishment" as a "rectification of the record," but I believe that at a minimum the NCAA must vacate any wins and titles that were obtained by the use of players who would have been ineligible to compete but for the fraudulent classes and other academic improprieties. While I also believe that the sports involved should in fairness be prohibited from participating in postseason competition for for a reasonable period and should suffer reduced scholarships as a penalty, it won't bother me a great deal if that does not happen, because I can comprehend -- even though I don't agree with -- the rationale that present-day players and coaches shouldn't be punished, and that fewer scholarships hurts potential future students. But one thing I would demand: That the UNC administration and athletic department make a public admission of wrongdoing and apologize to other members of the NCAA who were thereby deprived of the opportunity for fair competition.

Finally, regarding your statement about remaining a fan of your university, I can honestly say that I would continue to love Duke if there were a disclosure of similar transgressions. But I can also emphatically state that because of that love, and the sense of pride that goes with it, I would demand that those responsible for the misconduct be summarily dismissed; and with all due respect, I would call for the resignation or termination of any administrators or athletic department officials who engaged in the kind of shameless denial and deliberate obstruction of justice that we've seen (and continue to see) from the powers that be in Chapel Hill.

IMHO maybe one of the best Stray posts ever-----and that is really, really saying more than a lot. Wish this solution was forwarded to every member of the COI.

ricks

[alteran]

I agree with most of what you say. But the actions and attitudes displayed by the administration (both athletic and academic - and I don't separate them in this case) say to me that there is no remorse, no acceptance of any wrong and no assurance that such activities might be continued. For these reasons, I feel they deserve the most sever punishment available to the NCAA. unCheat has arrogantly thumbed its nose at all other schools that have faced and accepted their punishment for doing wrong. It is a repeat offending institution - as disclosed in the 1961 and 2010 or there about punishments. Yet they continued a scheme which, by their own admission, which continued for over 22 years.


This is totally true and I wish I had thought to include that earlier.

One of the worst parts of this whole fiasco at UNC as an institution is their total lack of meaningful remorse. I mean, sure, they've said, "ain't it awful," but then they expect there to be no realistic repercussions. If they played with ineligible players for 20+ years, they have an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM obligation to vacate all the games they illictly prevailed in. Never offered. (Not to mention making things up academically to the affected parties).

In terms of optics, they have chosen to allow this whole thing to unfold entirely in reference to athletics. Virtually no effort at all to root into academics and reform across the institution, merely clean up the AFAM mess that is on the public record, and NOTHING ELSE. Furthermore, the near total silence of the academic arm of the university here (you know, the part that represents their ostensible core mission) is incredibly damming. This implicitly proves something that is even worse-- at UNC, athletics calls the shots in all the ways that matter.

Period.

And they are doing absolutely nothing to change that.

Finally, if there are any UNC fans still reading, mark my words-- if they don't clean up all the stuff I've mentioned above, something like this happening again is almost inevitable.

[jv001]

This is totally true and I wish I had thought to include that earlier.

One of the worst parts of this whole fiasco at UNC as an institution is their total lack of meaningful remorse. I mean, sure, they've said, "ain't it awful," but then they expect there to be no realistic repercussions. If they played with ineligible players for 20+ years, they have an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM obligation to vacate all the games they illictly prevailed in. Never offered. (Not to mention making things up academically to the affected parties).

In terms of optics, they have chosen to allow this whole thing to unfold entirely in reference to athletics. Virtually no effort at all to root into academics and reform across the institution, merely clean up the AFAM mess that is on the public record, and NOTHING ELSE. Furthermore, the near total silence of the academic arm of the university here (you know, the part that represents their ostensible core mission) is incredibly damming. This implicitly proves something that is even worse-- at UNC, athletics calls the shots in all the ways that matter.

Period.

And they are doing absolutely nothing to change that.

Finally, if there are any UNC fans still reading, mark my words-- if they don't clean up all the stuff I've mentioned above, something like this happening again is almost inevitable.

Especially at UNCheat Prep school. Oh, I'm sorry, that's degrading all Prep Schools. GoDuke!

[duke80]

Thanks for all of the kind responses. I appreciate it.

I'm still smarting, but to be honest I wasn't disheartened and demoralized (to use Justice Gorsuch's words) with the loss. It was a really good game ("Both teams played hard" to quote one of your favorites, Rasheed Wallace) and in any event life goes on.

I can't resist making one rejoinder (with all due respect) regarding the reference to all the cheating going on on Chapel Hill. I shouldn't allow myself to be baited, but I can't help myself.

I'm not defending what happened (as I've said before, I'm utterly sickened by it), and I would never suggest that there shouldn't be consequences/punishment for it (it's obvious to me that there should be--I just wish we could get on with it), but I do hope and wish that the negative statements made (by ABCers generally) are expressed with the acknowledgement that the cheating isn't going on now and hasn't been for several years.

That's not to trivialize it--again, it was disgraceful. Justice needs to be done. But sometimes the vitriol suggests a reaction to current behavior, which isn't right.

I suppose there might be a reaction to the school's current strategy in dealing with it. That, I sort of understand. But the current administration is (as UNCFAN said) is doing what it is charged to do--to navigate the University through the situation with as little damage as possible. (I myself would have taken a path of less resistance to put things behind--but let's face it--no one in this day and age really ever does that anymore--everything is a grand battle--especially where dollars are at stake, to say nothing of the culture of conflict that has taken hold in our society.) It's not realistic anymore to expect anyone to just lay down and take what's coming to them.

Anyway, mainly I just want to underscore what I would hope is obvious--there isn't an issue regarding current compliance. I suspect the school now (and for the last X years) is being and has been run about as cleanly as is possible.

That's all I'm going to say about it (and with all due respect I likely won't return any time soon because I don't want to get drawn into a discussion of it--again, it makes my stomach hurt). Though I hate what was done, I love the institution and can't help being an advocate for it where it's appropriate.

Again, great game and congratulations.

Go Heels.

A UNC fan coming out and voicing disapproval over not only what happened but how it's been handled. Now this is a breath of fresh air. The deep respect I used to have for UNC appeared to go by the wayside with all the denying and deflection on UNC's part, the personal insults of our coach and wishing certain of our players personal harm. I actually went on I.C. and asked them to dial it back and was treated better than I expected and it seemed to have a slightly positive effect for a time, but no more. The mud slinging and insults are back in full force. If one UNC fan like you can in start a positive dialogue and re-instill mutual respect, what would 100 or even 1000 do. Both schools and the rivalry would be better for it.

[jv001]

I don't know who authored the original quote, but I think this quote sums up my feelings on the subject of Carolina, their honor, integrity and whether they are currently playing by the rules:



The only consequence UNC has faced over the past three decades is unparalled success across their athletic department.

I enjoyed the game as well :cool:

Well said PackMan97. As I've said in the past, I don't hate the present players, coaches and fans, but I do hate the uncheat athletic programs. It was built on dishonesty beginning with Dean. For years I respected Dean and thought he was as honest as they come, but now I find out the academic/athletic fraud began under his watch. He had to know about it because he was on top of his players. He was concerned about them on the court and off the court. Why did he think the program had to cheat to win, because there was an up and coming coach down the road about 8 miles from his university that had the Duke program on the rise. If unc is not punished by taking away wins that were made using players that should have been ineligible and scholarship reductions, I hope the schools that have been punished, sue the NCAA for millions of dollars. GoDuke!

[BD80]

I think that's the main thing for a lot of folks. The administration strenuously argues that what it did was permissible and proper. Ergo, there is little reason to think that they accept the magnitude of what they did, or even why it was wrong.

It would be different if they came out; said they were wrong; and that they are willing to accept punishment (reserving the right to argue that the punishment should be on the low end of the spectrum). It is hard to find a belief that the problem has been rooted out, though, when there is little to no contrition from the administration.

...

To quote Bubba:

"I'm telling you what happened was bad, but it's not against the rules," Cunningham said of the UNC case.

http://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/north-carolina-ad-lays-out-academic-fraud-defense-ncaa-overcharged-tar-heels/

[wsb3]

I am glad to hear that there are UNC fans who are ashamed & embarrassed over years of cheating. As for myself living in the southeastern part of NC I have yet to encounter such a fan. My experience has been that they deflect, defend,excuse & of course say, "Roy didn't know..."

[jv001]

I am glad to hear that there are UNC fans who are ashamed & embarrassed over years of cheating. As for myself living in the southeastern part of NC I have yet to encounter such a fan. My experience has been that they deflect, defend,excuse & of course say, "Roy didn't know..."

Here in the NC Piedmont, it's well, every team does it. I'm so sick of hearing that, I could upchuck. GoDuke!

[UNCfan]

As a UNC fan, at some point you get tired of hearing it and start to get defensive. Maybe this is what a lot of ABC fans experience? I can say I am embarrassed, but other than that, what can I do? I am not jumping ship and I am not turning my back on a family tradition of pulling for UNC sports. I cannot be expected to throw up may hands and let and ABC'er ruin every bit of my fun. I am going to fight back, cause that is what we do. I may bring up things from your teams past and I may downplay things that UNC is accused of doing, but I will not bow and be bullied into submission. You wouldn't do it, why expect me to do it?

As a life long UNC fan, it has been a difficult time. Losing the NC on a last second shot sucks. Losing 12 of 16 to Duke sucks. Not landing 5* recruits sucks. Losing the mythical "Carolina Way" sucks. We cannot get that back for a long, long time, if ever. I hope in 30 years I am not as miserable as PackMan and clinging to this NCAA ruling as my only hope of being one up on UNC.

[Aziggazoomba]

This is totally true and I wish I had thought to include that earlier.

One of the worst parts of this whole fiasco at UNC as an institution is their total lack of meaningful remorse. I mean, sure, they've said, "ain't it awful," but then they expect there to be no realistic repercussions. If they played with ineligible players for 20+ years, they have an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM obligation to vacate all the games they illictly prevailed in. Never offered. (Not to mention making things up academically to the affected parties).

In terms of optics, they have chosen to allow this whole thing to unfold entirely in reference to athletics. Virtually no effort at all to root into academics and reform across the institution, merely clean up the AFAM mess that is on the public record, and NOTHING ELSE. Furthermore, the near total silence of the academic arm of the university here (you know, the part that represents their ostensible core mission) is incredibly damming. This implicitly proves something that is even worse-- at UNC, athletics calls the shots in all the ways that matter.

Period.

And they are doing absolutely nothing to change that.

Finally, if there are any UNC fans still reading, mark my words-- if they don't clean up all the stuff I've mentioned above, something like this happening again is almost inevitable.


Sigh. I said I wouldn't allow myself to be drawn in. (Willpower never was one of my more salient attributes.)

I don't think the statements above are entirely accurate. Mainly I would want to be sure you were aware of this: http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/
and http://www.dailytarheel.com/section/unc-scandal-reforms

Maybe you were aware of this stuff but think it doesn't go far enough (say, in terms of expressing abject contrition?). Anyway, I don't think it's the case that there has been no recognition of the need for academic reform as a result of all of this.

Not that the University deserves a trophy for any of this. Like someone said, probably nothing would have happened had the school not gotten caught. Plus, these reforms were a precondition to re-accreditation. It was a matter of utter necessity.

For what it's worth, Chancellor Folt doesn't seem to be one to get steamrolled by the athletic department, and ultimately I think she has her eye on what's important (while at the same time trying to present a strong position on behalf of the University--which she is duty bound to do). Of course she has millions of dollars of high-priced legal and PR talent that she has to rely on--see my comment way above regarding culture of conflict, yada yada. (Yes, I know, when lawyers and PR people are involved you know you've lost your way--I agree.)

Anyway, it's easy to see how with all the posturing and public relations BS flowing out of this, information suggesting efforts at legitimate reform could get lost in the mix. So I just wanted to make sure it didn't and that your judgements are fair, if I might (not that you don't have the unfettered right to think and judge as you wish, regardless--of course you do!).

OK, this time I really am peace-ing out.

Cheers, Go Heels, have a great weekend and thanks again for welcoming the enemy through the gates.

[duke80]

Sigh. I said I wouldn't allow myself to be drawn in. (Willpower never was one of my more salient attributes.)

I don't think the statements above are entirely accurate. Mainly I would want to be sure you were aware of this: http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/
and http://www.dailytarheel.com/section/unc-scandal-reforms

Maybe you were aware of this stuff but think it doesn't go far enough (say, in terms of expressing abject contrition?). Anyway, I don't think it's the case that there has been no recognition of the need for academic reform as a result of all of this.

Not that the University deserves a trophy for any of this. Like someone said, probably nothing would have happened had the school not gotten caught. Plus, these reforms were a precondition to re-accreditation. It was a matter of utter necessity.

For what it's worth, Chancellor Folt doesn't seem to be one to get steamrolled by the athletic department, and ultimately I think she has her eye on what's important (while at the same time trying to present a strong position on behalf of the University--which she is duty bound to do). Of course she has millions of dollars of high-priced legal and PR talent that she has to rely on--see my comment way above regarding culture of conflict, yada yada. (Yes, I know, when lawyers and PR people are involved you know you've lost your way--I agree.)

Anyway, it's easy to see how with all the posturing and public relations BS flowing out of this, information suggesting efforts at legitimate reform could get lost in the mix. So I just wanted to make sure it didn't and that your judgements are fair, if I might (not that you don't have the unfettered right to think and judge as you wish, regardless--of course you do!).

OK, this time I really am peace-ing out.

Cheers, Go Heels, have a great weekend and thanks again for welcoming the enemy through the gates.


Why are UNC fans not calling for resolution of this situation? Seriously. It is getting old and pathetic. UNC was caught cooking the books, so why is your university trying to win and treat this as some kind of trial? Everyone knows what happened including the COI, who is made up of adults and not rabid fans. At first UNC tried to hide what was happening, then you denied it, then you produced reports that were wrong, then you went for broke and plead not guilty for the most part, and now you are trying to get off on a technicality. This strategy probably won't work either. You are dying the death of a thousand cuts and don't even realize it. I'm saying all this not to rub your nose in it as no one wants to see the good people of UNC or the current players suffer. I think everyone is just tired of your ridiculous positions and statements. Why don't you try to minimize the damage and self impose as soon as the tournament is over? But that would require some level of pain and responsibility. You got caught. Cheating is a no win situation and your best path is to get this over with as soon as possible, or would you disagree?

[alteran]

Sigh. I said I wouldn't allow myself to be drawn in. (Willpower never was one of my more salient attributes.)

I don't think the statements above are entirely accurate. Mainly I would want to be sure you were aware of this: http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/
and http://www.dailytarheel.com/section/unc-scandal-reforms

Maybe you were aware of this stuff but think it doesn't go far enough (say, in terms of expressing abject contrition?). Anyway, I don't think it's the case that there has been no recognition of the need for academic reform as a result of all of this.

Not that the University deserves a trophy for any of this. Like someone said, probably nothing would have happened had the school not gotten caught. Plus, these reforms were a precondition to re-accreditation. It was a matter of utter necessity.

For what it's worth, Chancellor Folt doesn't seem to be one to get steamrolled by the athletic department, and ultimately I think she has her eye on what's important (while at the same time trying to present a strong position on behalf of the University--which she is duty bound to do). Of course she has millions of dollars of high-priced legal and PR talent that she has to rely on--see my comment way above regarding culture of conflict, yada yada. (Yes, I know, when lawyers and PR people are involved you know you've lost your way--I agree.)

Anyway, it's easy to see how with all the posturing and public relations BS flowing out of this, information suggesting efforts at legitimate reform could get lost in the mix. So I just wanted to make sure it didn't and that your judgements are fair, if I might (not that you don't have the unfettered right to think and judge as you wish, regardless--of course you do!).

OK, this time I really am peace-ing out.

Cheers, Go Heels, have a great weekend and thanks again for welcoming the enemy through the gates.

Zigs (can I call you Zigs? ;-),

I honestly assumed you had moved on from this thread. You've been a gracious guest and have said more than enough about the scandal. Please feel free not to read a single word of the following, honestly. I'll just throw out that I am actually a UNC graduate (raised in Durham), and really loved it there. I have been following this story very carefully from that perspective.

Just, for the record, I don't think any of my assertions are remotely wrong, and I believe I would more than hold my own in any debate trying to prove them. I'm sure you feel the same from your perspective.

Regarding Carolina Commitment, while some significant reforms have undoubtedly been undertaken, I personally don't think it or anything/anyone else has rectified the superiority of the athletic machine to the academic mission of UNC. CC looks LARGELY (but not entirely) like a PR effort to me. Regarding Folt, while I was initially hopeful that Folt would be a part of the solution, her actions WRT to Willingham quickly demonstrated her to be someone more interested in containing reputational damage then fixing the actual problems. I'm just going to leave it there.

We disagree. Not surprising.

As I said before, you're a great poster, a great representative of your chosen school, and I hope you stick around.

[UNCfan]

If I say I want Roy and any other coach at UNC that had a player in the AFAM classes to be fired, the banners to be pulled down and forfeited, players who took the classes have their degrees stripped until they retake classes to satisfy the requirements, and UNC to have scholarship restrictions and be banned from post season play for 4 years across all guilty sports, what would you say? Is that enough?

[jv001]

If I say I want Roy and any other coach at UNC that had a player in the AFAM classes to be fired, the banners to be pulled down and forfeited, players who took the classes have their degrees stripped until they retake classes to satisfy the requirements, and UNC to have scholarship restrictions and be banned from post season play for 4 years across all guilty sports, what would you say? Is that enough?

On my list I left off Roy and other coaches to be fired. Yes, I'd certainly be satisfied if the school named all guilty parties in addition to the things you listed. GoDuke!

[duke79]

If I say I want Roy and any other coach at UNC that had a player in the AFAM classes to be fired, the banners to be pulled down and forfeited, players who took the classes have their degrees stripped until they retake classes to satisfy the requirements, and UNC to have scholarship restrictions and be banned from post season play for 4 years across all guilty sports, what would you say? Is that enough?

LOL, it's a good start! What would you propose for phase two of the punishment?

[alteran]

If I say I want Roy and any other coach at UNC that had a player in the AFAM classes to be fired, the banners to be pulled down and forfeited, players who took the classes have their degrees stripped until they retake classes to satisfy the requirements, and UNC to have scholarship restrictions and be banned from post season play for 4 years across all guilty sports, what would you say? Is that enough?

YOU don't have to say that. UNC does. As long as UNC tries to dodge EVERY. SINGLE. CONSEQUENCE. of their actions, no one is going to take them seriously.

Nor do you have to take on their sins, my friend. You've already said you don't care for what they've done and are doing. Personally, rooting interest around here in NC is very much tied to identity (I think a lot of Duke fans who don't hail from NC don't fully get that), and I get why they're still your team.

[PackMan97]

LOL, it's a good start! What would you propose for phase two of the punishment?

A man after my own heart. :o

To be hoenst, if the University came out with those suggestions, I'd be ok with them...but the chances of Carolina coming out and self-imposing any punishment is absolutely zero. They are all-in on the "we did nothing", "the NCAA is broke", "we are the victim" defenses.

[duke80]

If I say I want Roy and any other coach at UNC that had a player in the AFAM classes to be fired, the banners to be pulled down and forfeited, players who took the classes have their degrees stripped until they retake classes to satisfy the requirements, and UNC to have scholarship restrictions and be banned from post season play for 4 years across all guilty sports, what would you say? Is that enough?

I would say the '05 banner, 1-2 years post season ban, 5 years probabtion, and a pretty large financial penalty. That would hopefully serve as a deterrent from this ever happening again. I agree that some will never be satisfied but that is always the case. What do you think should happen? Why doesn't UNC self impose instead of keep posturing? Serious question

[alteran]

BTW, how ironic is this thread title at this point? ;-)

[duke80]

A man after my own heart. :o

To be hoenst, if the University came out with those suggestions, I'd be ok with them...but the chances of Carolina coming out and self-imposing any punishment is absolutely zero. They are all-in on the "we did nothing", "the NCAA is broke", "we are the victim" defenses.

Unfortunately, I agree with you about UNC never self imposing. I just want to know what a reasonable UNC fan would say.

[OldPhiKap]

As a UNC fan, at some point you get tired of hearing it and start to get defensive. Maybe this is what a lot of ABC fans experience? I can say I am embarrassed, but other than that, what can I do? I am not jumping ship and I am not turning my back on a family tradition of pulling for UNC sports. I cannot be expected to throw up may hands and let and ABC'er ruin every bit of my fun. I am going to fight back, cause that is what we do. I may bring up things from your teams past and I may downplay things that UNC is accused of doing, but I will not bow and be bullied into submission. You wouldn't do it, why expect me to do it?

As a life long UNC fan, it has been a difficult time. Losing the NC on a last second shot sucks. Losing 12 of 16 to Duke sucks. Not landing 5* recruits sucks. Losing the mythical "Carolina Way" sucks. We cannot get that back for a long, long time, if ever. I hope in 30 years I am not as miserable as PackMan and clinging to this NCAA ruling as my only hope of being one up on UNC.

This is also an excellent and well-reasoned post. Most of my UNC alum friends are in this camp.

I think both of our UNC posters on this thread have addressed the game, and the scandal, with rational decorum. I appreciate both of your comments and contributions.

[FadedTackyShirt]

If I say I want Roy and any other coach at UNC that had a player in the AFAM classes to be fired, the banners to be pulled down and forfeited, players who took the classes have their degrees stripped until they retake classes to satisfy the requirements, and UNC to have scholarship restrictions and be banned from post season play for 4 years across all guilty sports, what would you say? Is that enough?

Fair enough. Hardcore UNC fans will protest bigly about the 2005 and 2009 banners coming down. Just ease Roy out and pretend it didn't start on Dean's watch. Know that many here hate Dean, but he did a lot of great things for North Carolina in the '60s when it wasn't exactly convenient or popular. The academic wink and nod were much worse than athletic cheating, but the NCAA has no jurisdiction.

Not a fan of the NCAA, but lost a lot of respect for Boeheim and Syracuse for the ceremony around his alleged 1000th win. Even Bobby Bowden/FSU took their punishment with minimal whining.

[PackMan97]

As a life long UNC fan, it has been a difficult time. Losing the NC on a last second shot sucks. Losing 12 of 16 to Duke sucks. Not landing 5* recruits sucks. Losing the mythical "Carolina Way" sucks.

As a rebuttal I submit this article from 2010. Carolina fans have a really odd perspective on how important the sportsball is. To think, losing in the national CHAMPIONSHIP game is a hardship they've had to endure because of the scandal...:rolleyes:

edited for slightly less inflamatory link :)

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/news/story?id=4907670

[UNCfan]

As a rebuttal I submit this article from 2010. Carolina fans have a really odd perspective on how important the sportsball is. To think, losing in the national CHAMPIONSHIP game is a hardship they've had to endure because of the scandal...:rolleyes:

edited for slightly less inflamatory link :)

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/news/story?id=4907670

You are the last person I would think I could share an opposing perspective with. I was pointing out that the scandal has had a big affect on UNC fans. I listed the NC game as an example of a disappointment from the last few years. Maybe it isn't a good idea to lump it in with the NCAA stuff, but it was a major disappointment.

Ok, I am done too. I have received enough PM's advising me not to add oxygen to the fire.

[Devilwin]

Most of the UNC fans I know when the subject is mentioned, give a wink and say, "you know we'll get a slap on the wrist if anything", type of answer.
I don't think they appreciate just how bad this could be for them.
Thank God there's at least two rational ones here among us.

[UNCfan]

"and you wonder why we hate you. No shame. No remorse. No change."

from Packman

Thanks!

[Ultrarunner]

Thanks for all of the kind responses. I appreciate it.

I'm still smarting, but to be honest I wasn't disheartened and demoralized (to use Justice Gorsuch's words) with the loss. It was a really good game ("Both teams played hard" to quote one of your favorites, Rasheed Wallace) and in any event life goes on.

I can't resist making one rejoinder (with all due respect) regarding the reference to all the cheating going on on Chapel Hill. I shouldn't allow myself to be baited, but I can't help myself.

I'm not defending what happened (as I've said before, I'm utterly sickened by it), and I would never suggest that there shouldn't be consequences/punishment for it (it's obvious to me that there should be--I just wish we could get on with it), but I do hope and wish that the negative statements made (by ABCers generally) are expressed with the acknowledgement that the cheating isn't going on now and hasn't been for several years.

That's not to trivialize it--again, it was disgraceful. Justice needs to be done. But sometimes the vitriol suggests a reaction to current behavior, which isn't right.

I suppose there might be a reaction to the school's current strategy in dealing with it. That, I sort of understand. But the current administration is (as UNCFAN said) is doing what it is charged to do--to navigate the University through the situation with as little damage as possible. (I myself would have taken a path of less resistance to put things behind--but let's face it--no one in this day and age really ever does that anymore--everything is a grand battle--especially where dollars are at stake, to say nothing of the culture of conflict that has taken hold in our society.) It's not realistic anymore to expect anyone to just lay down and take what's coming to them.

Anyway, mainly I just want to underscore what I would hope is obvious--there isn't an issue regarding current compliance. I suspect the school now (and for the last X years) is being and has been run about as cleanly as is possible.

That's all I'm going to say about it (and with all due respect I likely won't return any time soon because I don't want to get drawn into a discussion of it--again, it makes my stomach hurt). Though I hate what was done, I love the institution and can't help being an advocate for it where it's appropriate.

Again, great game and congratulations.

Go Heels.

Wondering if DBR would consider not chasing off people like Aziggazoomba by pinning the sins of the Cheater program on their shoulders and demanding a renunciation of the Cheaters and woe to them if it does not meet the Hammer of Doom standard that the DBR posters fervently desire. They're fans of the program, stated up front that they are distraught at the cheating, and would like to discuss the game. I could live with that.

[Ultrarunner]

It appears a certain letter is wanking up the messages. Amusing.

[Brockt10]

It appears a certain letter is wanking up the messages. Amusing.

It's the letter after n and before p

[-jk]

Something is certainly going on with the wankerizer.

I deleted the 3 and D thread for the same reason. We're looking into it!

-jk

[devildeac]

And JB Duke was scolding a poster or two in chat a couple weeks ago for trying to avoid the language filters for typing something like sh*t, IIRC. :o

There's gonna be a lotta folks "on holiday" after this wankerization tonight. :rolleyes:

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Well, this thread escalated quickly.

[moonpie23]

But sometimes the vitriol suggests a reaction to current behavior, which isn't right.


a very articulate post. You speak more sanely than the horde of heels fans who's only salvation is to retain the titles.

however, the "current behavior" cannot (nor should it be) disconnected from past behavior. the current behavior is, as it HAS always been the entire time. The sheer arrogance from unc, as it was formed, as it grew, as it has evolved, has mitigated ANY attempt to avoid the exact vitriol you speak of.

the "carolina way" was a lie. pure and simple, yet, it was smeared in the face, and shoved down the throats of everyone from the beginning SO venomously, the blowback is so richly deserved.

indeed, unc just "rolling over and taking it" is the light version of what they deserve.

[moonpie23]

If I say I want Roy and any other coach at UNC that had a player in the AFAM classes to be fired, the banners to be pulled down and forfeited, players who took the classes have their degrees stripped until they retake classes to satisfy the requirements, and UNC to have scholarship restrictions and be banned from post season play for 4 years across all guilty sports, what would you say? Is that enough?

YES!!!!!!! THANK YOU!!! YES.......finally....


when can we expect that ?? I'll pencil it in on the calendar for the 12th.....

[devildeac]

YES!!!!!!! THANK YOU!!! YES....finally...


when can we expect that ?? I'll pencil it in on the calendar for the 12th....

You're forgetting the financial penalties that can/should be levied, too;). They've been posted very, very early in this ongoing discussion, waaaaay predating this thread, perhaps 2 years ago, and are fairly clearly stated in NCAA guidelines. Could/should amount to millions and millions of illicitly earned $$$. Otherwise, I'm with UNCfan's proposal and moonpie's endorsement thereof. :D

[throatybeard]

BTW, how ironic is this thread title at this point? ;-)

Well he came in peace. Then we happened.