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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 84, Notre Dame 74 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
01-30-2017, 09:14 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

fuse
01-30-2017, 09:16 PM
Pleasantly surprised.
Grit and hustle that had been missing was key to the win.

Luke's out of bounds save to Grayson for the three has to be the play of the game.

Let's Go Duke!!!!

91_92_01_10_15
01-30-2017, 09:16 PM
I was listening to Bob. Did the ESPN announcers comment on the second half officiating?

I'm proud of our guys for fighting through it, but that was miserable to watch.

Wahoo2000
01-30-2017, 09:17 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of potentially bad news, but you may have another really annoying media night:

https://twitter.com/Fijithegreat/status/826245343834677248/video/1

Looks like potentially another uber-analyzed Allen "thing".

91devil
01-30-2017, 09:17 PM
Live by the free throw, die by the free throw.

Great team effort, boys!

flyingdutchdevil
01-30-2017, 09:17 PM
Ship has righted. Now let's raise those masts!!!!!!

DukeFanSince1990
01-30-2017, 09:17 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLCLMEYp9s0

DinoDuke
01-30-2017, 09:18 PM
Great win, I mean that's an understatement. They held it together in the second half, on the road no less. Tatum played so much better, and they battled through a ton of adversity. Especially against a team like ND who have besmirched us in recent history. Proud of the guys.

Troublemaker
01-30-2017, 09:19 PM
Great win. Duke was in control of the game (varying degrees of control) from beginning to end.

Jayson Tatum answered his critics, I hope. Note, though, that he did his damage as the PF in this game. 90% of the pre-game chatter from Duke fans (not necessarily on this board) was that the solution to beating ND was to go uber-big. (Purdue tried that and got spanked before they learned to go small against ND).

Interesting that we basically used the rotation against Florida (http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/stats/2016-17/basketball-m/du1206.htm)* to notch our now biggest win of the season. Florida is #10 in KenPom, but this is a road win against a very good opponent. Advantage, tonight's win.

* Swap Marques for Harry and Chase for Vrank

davekay1971
01-30-2017, 09:19 PM
Great win. Absolutely great win for Duke. Our guys played with incredible toughness on the road in a terrible situation, fighting uphill against officiating that was punishing. They showed grit and earned a great win on the road.

DinoDuke
01-30-2017, 09:19 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of potentially bad news, but you may have another really annoying media night:

https://twitter.com/Fijithegreat/status/826245343834677248/video/1

Looks like potentially another uber-analyzed Allen "thing".

Looked like the dude was holding GA's foot up with his leg, then GA put it down firmly. Then the dude threw himself on the floor for some reason.

gep
01-30-2017, 09:20 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of potentially bad news, but you may have another really annoying media night:

https://twitter.com/Fijithegreat/status/826245343834677248/video/1

Looks like potentially another uber-analyzed Allen "thing".

What was Grayson doing??? Looked like he stomped on "something" :confused:

duketaylor
01-30-2017, 09:20 PM
Just an excellent win tonight, by 10 on the road. I think team is coming together despite the multitude of crappy officiating calls. Missed one FT tonight, right?
Grayson's mojo appears back. Tatum was strong, Giles helped plenty. Very pleasing evening. GO DUKE!!! Very tough stretch in front, but why not. Let's play with a healthy team and coaching staff soon. Feeling re-energized, I am!!

Atldukie79
01-30-2017, 09:20 PM
Gritty performance.
We out shot the ACC leading free throw shooting team from the line. After a 30 - 20 disparity in fouls called in the Wake game, we almost matched that absurdly high total number of fouls with 27-21.

DukieInBrasil
01-30-2017, 09:21 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of potentially bad news, but you may have another really annoying media night:

https://twitter.com/Fijithegreat/status/826245343834677248/video/1

Looks like potentially another uber-analyzed Allen "thing".

dude tripped himself. if anyone makes a deal out of this they're just desperate.

Wahoo2000
01-30-2017, 09:22 PM
What was Grayson doing??? Looked like he stomped on "something" :confused:

Who knows what's happening there. 1,000,000 ways to interpret it. Only one thing is certain:

If it involved anyone else but Allen it wouldn't be looked at twice.

WiJoe
01-30-2017, 09:22 PM
always great to beat the despised domers. man, I dislike them.

gep
01-30-2017, 09:23 PM
So is Coach Capel earning his stripes?:cool:

duke4ever19
01-30-2017, 09:24 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of potentially bad news, but you may have another really annoying media night:

https://twitter.com/Fijithegreat/status/826245343834677248/video/1

Looks like potentially another uber-analyzed Allen "thing".

It will be official when espn decides to post the video. It's only a matter of time. . .

So far espn hasn't caught wind of it. I give it 30 minutes max.

mgtr
01-30-2017, 09:25 PM
Very happy to see Jayson play under control. Maybe he was reading this board!

ChillinDuke
01-30-2017, 09:25 PM
Who knows what's happening there. 1,000,000 ways to interpret it. Only one thing is certain:

If it involved anyone else but Allen it wouldn't be looked at twice.

I'm not objective in this situation. But if I were, this would be a "jump the shark" moment. And I'd be over it.

- Chillin

kshepinthehouse
01-30-2017, 09:26 PM
We went up by thirteen on Matt's steal. Seemed like we had six or seven turnovers after that. Can anyone confirm?

FerryFor50
01-30-2017, 09:26 PM
Great win. Two games in a row, they've faced some adversity in the form of foul trouble, and both games, they haven't wilted.

Tatum came up HUGE on the boards on a night we needed him to, with Giles and Jefferson in foul trouble. I was surprised to see that Bolden got no burn again. Any word if it's injury related? Seems odd he wouldn't play at all when so many players had foul trouble and Vrank played ahead of him.

Also was good to see Tatum get some offense going and make some good passes. Not sure why he gets called for so many offensive fouls, though. It's not like he's a huge kid, so it's hard to believe he'd knock big 250 lb guys like Austin Torres on their rear... unless, of course, opposing players are just flopping. (say it ain't so!)

Great % from the FT line. Matt and Grayson were hitting shots. And they harassed Vasturia into a 1-9 and relatively contained Beachem and Colson. Held ND to 43% from the field. Outrebounded them by around 12. Still need to cut down the turnovers, though. 15 is too many.

lotusland
01-30-2017, 09:26 PM
Only caught the ending but stats indicate that coach Capel failed to heed my recommendation to go with a big lineup. Fortunately Duke played well enough to overcome the lapse in judgement.

arnie
01-30-2017, 09:26 PM
Very happy to see Jayson play under control. Maybe he was reading this board!

He dominated when we needed it - hope he can replicate it next Thursday.

ncexnyc
01-30-2017, 09:27 PM
That was a very impressive win against a solid Irish team. Some really clutch free throw shooting and they had an answer for every Irish run.

Saratoga2
01-30-2017, 09:28 PM
Dont look now but Duke played great defense in the first half, had relatively low turnovers and shared the scoring load. They simply were the better team. I thought the refs broke up the tempo of the game in the second half by their tight calling of fouls, some of which were totally wrong, or makeup calls. One on Harry for over the back was awful. When both Amile and Luke fouled out I thought we might have trouble holding the lead, but the team showed grit. Jayson, Harry, Grayson, Matt and Frank got it done.

Grayson may well have been player of the game but Jayson had a tremendous game and Harry made several plays at the end that were important for us.

A 10 point win on the road against a #20 rated opponent and one that has had our number has got to be satisfying and clearly the team is making progress and guys are getting healthy.

It looks like an 8 member rotation is getting firmed up and Duke is back in the hunt.

Pghdukie
01-30-2017, 09:29 PM
Top 10 Sign of the Year :

The GIPPER vs The TRIPPER !

slower
01-30-2017, 09:30 PM
Top 10 Sign of the Year :

The GIPPER vs The TRIPPER !

The Gipper, however, is dead. :p

91devil
01-30-2017, 09:31 PM
Top 10 Sign of the Year :

The GIPPER vs The TRIPPER !

I laughed at the one "Grayson Allen Drinks O'Douls"

Reminded me of the one three years ago, "Jabari Parker listens to Nickelback"

mgtr
01-30-2017, 09:31 PM
The Gipper, however, is dead. :p

And the guy who played him!

kshepinthehouse
01-30-2017, 09:32 PM
Dont look now but Duke played great defense in the first half, had relatively low turnovers and shared the scoring load. They simply were the better team. I thought the refs broke up the tempo of the game in the second half by their tight calling of fouls, some of which were totally wrong, or makeup calls. One on Harry for over the back was awful. When both Amile and Luke fouled out I thought we might have trouble holding the lead, but the team showed grit. Jayson, Harry, Grayson, Matt and Frank got it done.

Grayson may well have been player of the game but Jayson had a tremendous game and Harry made several plays at the end that were important for us.

A 10 point win on the road against a #20 rated opponent and one that has had our number has got to be satisfying and clearly the team is making progress and guys are getting healthy.

It looks like an 8 member rotation is getting firmed up and Duke is back in the hunt.

Actually looking more like 7 man rotation at this point. I think Allen, Kennard, and jefferson have to play the lions share of minutes. We can beat almost anyone in th country with those three on their game.

TKG
01-30-2017, 09:32 PM
As one the posters giving JT hell these past few days, he sure played well this evening. Hats off to him. GA was tough as nails and seems to be getting that GA edge back to his game. Am really curious why MB saw no action at all.

flyingdutchdevil
01-30-2017, 09:32 PM
I laughed at the one "Grayson Allen Drinks O'Douls"

Reminded me of the one three years ago, "Jabari Parker listens to Nickelback"

That Jabari sign was hilarious. I'be been laughing for the last 5 minutes.

dalmatians98
01-30-2017, 09:34 PM
Random thoughts. Incredible first half. Big gut check late in the second half when ND got it to within one. Giles was key the last couple of minutes. With Jefferson on the bench, his length at both ends was impressive. Grayson looked like he's returning to form. The team is really starting to gel. Thank you, Coach Capel. Not a bad way to exit January. Finally, was I the only one who found Rece Davis annoying?

duke4ever19
01-30-2017, 09:34 PM
The Gipper, however, is dead. :p

The Gipper is dead. Long live the Tripper!

Utley
01-30-2017, 09:34 PM
My man of the match is Capel. He used all the pieces just right today - especially Tatum - that's his game. The first half D was something to behold. I keep saying to myself this looked like a Duke team. Nice to see the team progress under Jeff - definitely helps validate him.

I was disappointed with Harry for the first 36 minutes. He just seemed disappointingly undisciplined - ihe has had enough time to at least be smarter than that. He made up for it at the end. That's clearly his game on the offensive end. He has one of the quickest leaps I can remember. Just ask him to do that and let the rest come over time.

Let's just keep on getting better.

Saratoga2
01-30-2017, 09:36 PM
One other thing I noticed near the end of the game when Harry went to the floor on a rebound and may have been fouled by Coulson. I thought he threw an elbow and hit him in the leg. I think Harry needs to control his emotions as had the refs seen that he might have had a foul called on him and been out of the game.

arnie
01-30-2017, 09:37 PM
As one the posters giving JT hell these past few days, he sure played well this evening. Hats off to him. GA was tough as nails and seems to be getting that GA edge back to his game. Am really curious why MB saw no action at all.

Who's minutes would he get? We weren't going to play 2 bigs at the same time tonite. He might be good enough to be a lottery pick, but not an ACC caliber player yet.

heyman25
01-30-2017, 09:37 PM
Best win of the season. Proud of this team for following a great game plan by Jeff Capel and the coaching staff. Jefferson and Kennard both fouled out with a lot of time left. Not smart and can not happen again. Allen pitched nearly a perfect game. Tatum was great, but still was missing gimmees as well as Giles.We can get much better but we beat a well coached talented team on their home court. We had many wasted possessions where we could not even get a shot off because of traveling or double dribble. Jefferson did not play as smart as he usually does. He started off the game looking like Amile before injury, but made some uncharacteristic errors as the game progressed.

CameronDuke
01-30-2017, 09:38 PM
Are we sure Coach K didn't go to practice yesterday or talk to the team about defensive principles after the game at Wake? Either that or Coach Capel REALLY communicated defensive principles to the team well yesterday after the Wake game. From the tip, Duke looked in the right position on defense way more consistently than they have recently. The team defense light bulbs looked like they were going off in the heads of many players. The help defense way of thinking clicked. Deflections, turnovers, getting into passing lanes, hedging screens, switching, making Notre Dame pass the ball east and west at the top of the key and limiting driving lanes - all things Duke did tremendously well tonight. A sign of the defense finally coming around? Hopefully. We'll see vs Pitt Saturday.

And Tatum, Luke, and Grayson were studs offensively. Whenever ND got close, Duke answered. Two huge clutch shots by Grayson down the stretch. A 3 and a 2 from the top of the key. Beautiful road win.

tbyers11
01-30-2017, 09:40 PM
One other thing I noticed near the end of the game when Harry went to the floor on a rebound and may have been fouled by Coulson. I thought he threw an elbow and hit him in the leg. I think Harry needs to control his emotions as had the refs seen that he might have had a foul called on him and been out of the game.

I believe the refs actually looked at that play on the monitor and declared nothing happened

Pghdukie
01-30-2017, 09:41 PM
It's great to have a few laughs after a huge road win ! We on this board have been alittle tense lately!
A Great Win !

NYBri
01-30-2017, 09:41 PM
Just to temper things a bit.

ND doesn't seem to have the kind of guard play to take advantage of Duke's weakness wth ball screens. They either don't have the talent or chose not to use ball scenes to free their guards to drive the lane.

I recall ND using the high screen only a couple of times where NCS and WF used it time and time again.

However, great win on the road.

Utley
01-30-2017, 09:41 PM
I am guessing this will be controversial but I liked Dakish? as the color guy. He was a little bit of a blowhard but he sprinkled in some interesting inside basketball and seemed reasonably balanced in his color. If nothing else - he did what none of the Duke announcers did and called out the whole thing for the sham it is. I loved Dufners line on the subject - I hadn't heard that one.

Troublemaker
01-30-2017, 09:44 PM
Re: Duke's defense. We held Notre Dame to 105.2 offensive efficiency, which is their 5th-lowest output of the season. Well done. (source: kenpom)

Danke Shane
01-30-2017, 09:44 PM
Can someone correct me if I'm wrong on this, but was Amile's "5th foul" basically the guy with the ball dribbling it off his own foot and then going down on his own after the ball in front of Amile? Because that's what it looked like to me...

heyman25
01-30-2017, 09:44 PM
I am guessing this will be controversial but I liked Dakish? as the color guy. He was a little bit of a blowhard but he sprinkled in some interesting inside basketball and seemed reasonably balanced in his color. If nothing else - he did what none of the Duke announcers did and called out the whole thing for the sham it is. I loved Dufners line on the subject - I hadn't heard that one. I thought his comment about let's find the latest Duke Villain was a money line. He was a good color analyst. My 1st time with him as an announcer for ESPN. I hope he gets more Duke games.

Saratoga2
01-30-2017, 09:44 PM
I believe the refs actually looked at that play on the monitor and declared nothing happened

Take a look again yourself and see what you think. I think he needs to be more careful.

FerryFor50
01-30-2017, 09:46 PM
Can someone correct me if I'm wrong on this, but was Amile's "5th foul" basically the guy with the ball dribbling it off his own foot and then going down on his own after the ball in front of Amile? Because that's what it looked like to me...

Pretty much. While trying to split a double team, out of control. Naturally, a Duke foul.

AFL
01-30-2017, 09:48 PM
I am guessing this will be controversial but I liked Dakish? as the color guy. He was a little bit of a blowhard but he sprinkled in some interesting inside basketball and seemed reasonably balanced in his color. If nothing else - he did what none of the Duke announcers did and called out the whole thing for the sham it is. I loved Dufners line on the subject - I hadn't heard that one.

Dan Dakich is one of my favorite announcers. He tells it like it is, whether you like it or not. He also took up for Grayson Allen tonight. What a tremendous road win tonight. This was definitely the biggest win of the season thus far. Maybe this team has finally turned the corner, and is starting to gel. I have nothing negative to say tonight. The entire team played well.

CDu
01-30-2017, 09:50 PM
Pre-game I said it would take our best game of the season to win. That is what we got. Our defense in the first half was stifling. And it could have been worse. We blew a couple of fast breaks and allowed them points on the other end instead.

This was the first game in which we showed our scoring depth. Kennard went for 16. But he was matched by Jones, while Tatum and Allen combined for 40. Four guys put up 16+ points.

Kudos to Tatum for his best game of the season. He abused whichever little Notre Dame tried on him. And he owned the glass. A huge 18 and 14 from him. And it could have been even more, but he started slowly.

Awesome performance from Allen too. 21 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists.

And not to be lost is that Giles played the last 2+ minutes - with 4 fouls - brilliantly. He did his job defensively, and still crashed the boards. He and Tatum were monsters on the glass tonight. Giles had 5 rebounds in 9 minutes!

How about the free throw shooting? Only one miss, by Jefferson for Tatum.

And about that so-called reliance on the 3? Only 12 of our 54 shots were 3s.

This was a VERY enjoyable win. My only concern is the absence of Bolden entirely. I hope it is nothing serious. We could certainly use him down the stretch of the season.

CDu
01-30-2017, 09:52 PM
Re: Duke's defense. We held Notre Dame to 105.2 offensive efficiency, which is their 5th-lowest output of the season. Well done. (source: kenpom)

Our first half was incredibly impressive. Second half defense? Less so (gave up almost 50). But the offense stepped up too.

tbyers11
01-30-2017, 09:52 PM
Take a look again yourself and see what you think. I think he needs to be more careful.

Sure Harry is better off not doing anything that could possibly be interpreted as a flagrant, but I agree with the refs that it was nothing worthy of a flagrant.

Furniture
01-30-2017, 09:52 PM
Will it be ok for Duke to go to the tourney now? Can Tatum go too? Or will it be the NIT with Jayson losing his scholarship?

arnie
01-30-2017, 09:53 PM
I thought his comment about let's find the latest Duke Villain was a money line. He was a good color analyst. My 1st time with him as an announcer for ESPN. I hope he gets more Duke games.

I guess you're too young to remember the greatest non-Duke bball game ever. Dakich shuts down 23 in NCAA tourney game held in Charlotte of all places. Last college game for Jordan, I believe and undermanned Indiana trashes no. 1 heels.

-jk
01-30-2017, 09:56 PM
With Amile and Luke out down the stretch, the rest of the team finishes quite well. I'll take it any day!

-jk

dukelifer
01-30-2017, 09:58 PM
Pre-game I said it would take our best game of the season to win. That is what we got. Our defense in the first half was stifling. And it could have been worse. We blew a couple of fast breaks and allowed them points on the other end instead.

This was the first game in which we showed our scoring depth. Kennard went for 16. But he was matched by Jones, while Tatum and Allen combined for 40. Four guys put up 16+ points.

Kudos to Tatum for his best game of the season. He abused whichever little Notre Dame tried on him. And he owned the glass. A huge 18 and 14 from him. And it could have been even more, but he started slowly.

Awesome performance from Allen too. 21 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists.

And not to be lost is that Giles played the last 2+ minutes - with 4 fouls - brilliantly. He did his job defensively, and still crashed the boards. He and Tatum were monsters on the glass tonight. Giles had 5 rebounds in 9 minutes!

How about the free throw shooting? Only one miss, by Jefferson for Tatum.

And about that so-called reliance on the 3? Only 12 of our 54 shots were 3s.

This was a VERY enjoyable win. My only concern is the absence of Bolden entirely. I hope it is nothing serious. We could certainly use him down the stretch of the season.

Team responded in a big way after the huge run by Notre Dame. Tatum had a huge advantage over Vasturia and he took advantage. The young guys responded nicely in crunch time with Jefferson and Kennard on the bench. An excellent win and much pointing upward. Still need a little more production from the bench but that may come. The team needs to maintain the focus, but this looked like a Duke team playing with poise in critical moments of a big game. Make no mistake- ND needed this game and Duke took it from them.

jacone21
01-30-2017, 09:59 PM
Will it be ok for Duke to go to the tourney now? Can Tatum go too? Or will it be the NIT with Jayson losing his scholarship?

7122

WiJoe
01-30-2017, 10:01 PM
Just to temper things a bit.

ND doesn't seem to have the kind of guard play to take advantage of Duke's weakness wth ball screens. They either don't have the talent or chose not to use ball scenes to free their guards to drive the lane.

I recall ND using the high screen only a couple of times where NCS and WF used it time and time again.

However, great win on the road.

I have no authority, but THIS IS THE POST OF THE NIGHT !!!!!

Spanarkel
01-30-2017, 10:02 PM
I guess you're too young to remember the greatest non-Duke bball game ever. Dakich shuts down 23 in NCAA tourney game held in Charlotte of all places. Last college game for Jordan, I believe and undermanned Indiana trashes no. 1 heels.

Atlanta

OldPhiKap
01-30-2017, 10:03 PM
Will it be ok for Duke to go to the tourney now? Can Tatum go too? Or will it be the NIT with Jayson losing his scholarship?

Until the next loss.

WiJoe
01-30-2017, 10:04 PM
Until the next loss.

hilarious ... and true

:cool:

MaxAMillion
01-30-2017, 10:06 PM
Are we sure Coach K didn't go to practice yesterday or talk to the team about defensive principles after the game at Wake? Either that or Coach Capel REALLY communicated defensive principles to the team well yesterday after the Wake game. From the tip, Duke looked in the right position on defense way more consistently than they have recently. The team defense light bulbs looked like they were going off in the heads of many players. The help defense way of thinking clicked. Deflections, turnovers, getting into passing lanes, hedging screens, switching, making Notre Dame pass the ball east and west at the top of the key and limiting driving lanes - all things Duke did tremendously well tonight. A sign of the defense finally coming around? Hopefully. We'll see vs Pitt Saturday.

And Tatum, Luke, and Grayson were studs offensively. Whenever ND got close, Duke answered. Two huge clutch shots by Grayson down the stretch. A 3 and a 2 from the top of the key. Beautiful road win.

I think it is just another example of the team learning how to play. I think a lot of us are not used to seeing Duke play inconsistent basketball. Meanwhile MSU seems to struggle every year then turn it on in late February and March. Maybe Duke will do the same thing.

WHOneedsSOX
01-30-2017, 10:07 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of potentially bad news, but you may have another really annoying media night:

https://twitter.com/Fijithegreat/status/826245343834677248/video/1

Looks like potentially another uber-analyzed Allen "thing".

I've watched that 10 times and still can't figure out what's going on there. Another flop it looks like to me.

Officiating is just insane. Just throw yourself to the ground in a non-theatrical way when someone touches you and it'll be called a foul.

NashvilleDevil
01-30-2017, 10:07 PM
Just to temper things a bit.

ND doesn't seem to have the kind of guard play to take advantage of Duke's weakness wth ball screens. They either don't have the talent or chose not to use ball scenes to free their guards to drive the lane.

I recall ND using the high screen only a couple of times where NCS and WF used it time and time again.

However, great win on the road.

How wet is that blanket you're holding?

Ballboy1998
01-30-2017, 10:10 PM
Really big win for the good guys. I don't think Notre Dame is that good this year, and they seem to be reverting to the mean a bit of late, but given the problem Brey's offenses normally cause Duke, it was a subjectively great, great win. Add to it winning two gritty road games in a row after not having notched any road wins prior, and this was a huge stretch for the team's season.

I thought everyone who played made some very valuable contributions at different moments.

Grayson is a bit mercurial and could easily face a setback, but over these last few games it looks like he has learned how to embrace the hate and start having some fun out there again. One of my favorite moments of the game was when the fans were being especially obnoxious while Grayson was at the line after getting fouled on a jumper and he swished both free throws, got subbed out, and walked over to the bench just holding his follow through the whole way. He could save a busload of orphans every day for the rest of the year and all the haters would still be there, so he might as well just lean into it a bit. Relatedly, I thought the 3 and subsequent pull-up 2 he hit back-to-back after ND cut it to two were the biggest plays of the game.

BandAlum83
01-30-2017, 10:13 PM
I laughed at the one "Grayson Allen Drinks O'Douls"

Reminded me of the one three years ago, "Jabari Parker listens to Nickelback"

Did anyone notice the "Grayson Allen has a right to life" sign?

I took it as a sign of support, but it was in the student section, so I doubt it.

I just figure it was a fail.

Troublemaker
01-30-2017, 10:15 PM
Actually looking more like 7 man rotation at this point. I think Allen, Kennard, and jefferson have to play the lions share of minutes. We can beat almost anyone in th country with those three on their game.

Yeah, this won't be the final rotation. But, relying on your reliables to snatch a big road win at this time (and because it made sense matchup-wise as well) is something I fully support.

We will get more from Harry, Frank, and Marques down the line, though, but tonight was a night for the vets + Tatum.

CDu
01-30-2017, 10:19 PM
Did anyone notice the "Grayson Allen has a right to life" sign?

I took it as a sign of support, but it was in the student section, so I doubt it.

I just figure it was a fail.

I am guessing it was suggesting that Allen is a fetus. Classy stuff.

Channing
01-30-2017, 10:19 PM
After the first four minutes it looked like Tatum was heading for another subpar game. I think there was a blown d assignment, silly turnover, and forced fadeaway that led to a runout. But boy did he turn it around. Played within the offense and had some big rebounds.

Ima Facultiwyfe
01-30-2017, 10:24 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of potentially bad news, but you may have another really annoying media night:

https://twitter.com/Fijithegreat/status/826245343834677248/video/1

Looks like potentially another uber-analyzed Allen "thing".

To quote one of my favorite Crazie chants, "It doesn't matter! It just doesn't matter!"
Love, Ima

Emerrick
01-30-2017, 10:26 PM
7123

egr88
01-30-2017, 10:37 PM
favorite sign "Looking forward to the 'I Hate Grayson Allen' 30 for 30 special"

Newton_14
01-30-2017, 10:37 PM
I think it is just another example of the team learning how to play. I think a lot of us are not used to seeing Duke play inconsistent basketball. Meanwhile MSU seems to struggle every year then turn it on in late February and March. Maybe Duke will do the same thing.
Bingo.
For the first time since the 3 freshman joined us post injury, we looked like a well coached Duke Basketball Team. We have now played 3 good halves in a row. Duke Basketball halves. I also feel like tonight is the baseline of who we are (good enough to beat a ranked team on the road on two days rest with a ton of foul trouble). From here it is about how much we can build upon that baseline and improve. More on that in a minute.

Tatum played well offensively tonight because he played off of Luke and Grayson beautifully vs trying to be Option 1. That was the very clear design from the opening tip and lots of credit to 0 because he flourished in that role. He also played inside out which he absolutely needs to do. He is a good catch an shoot 3 Pointer shooter, much like Matt, when he catches with plenty of space, sets his feet, squares those shoulders and goes straight up. Outside of that, he needs to attack attack attack the rack, and live at the foul line.

The defense was really good in the first half and I agree with those (Saratoga?) who opined that the refs interjected themselves into the 2nd half. Even late in the first half. After the two bad calls against ND in a row (Tatum block/charge followed by ND and-1 that was called on the floor leading to the Brey T) there seemed like about 5 "make up" calls in a row. It got ridiculous. ND might not have guards that are great at attacking or not use ball screens a lot but they still have darn good guards and a really good offensive team so please don't make the mistake of pooh poohing our defensive performance. Just think back to our defense last Monday Night for example.


I don't fully trust this team yet, but I am close. They are figuring each other out, learning how to play together and have success. If they can maintain a minimum of the level we saw tonight, and start building on it by adding in new wrinkles, and also integrating Bolden, we may see a glimpse of what we originally expected with this group. Like CDu, I am worried about Bolden. I hope there is some undisclosed nagging injury or something rather than DNP-CD situation. I thought he could have had success against Colsen tonight. Getting no run at all was concerning.

However, great effort by the 8 guys that did play and a big win in a lot of ways. Grayson has much of his mojo back, and the team is starting to believe again after getting knocked back and obviously losing confidence in their collective abilities.

Big win. Back to Cameron for Pitt and hopefully Coach K will walk out of that locker room about 3 minutes prior to tip!

Atldukie79
01-30-2017, 10:37 PM
Regarding Bolden's minutes...whatever else is wrong with him physically, The hulking Geben played 7 minutes and was abused by Amile. ND was generally small and we played small also. In any case he was not needed tonight. Methinks he will be when we play the Heels.

devildeac
01-30-2017, 10:46 PM
Gritty performance.
We out shot the ACC leading free throw shooting team from the line. After a 30 - 20 disparity in fouls called in the Wake game, we almost matched that absurdly high total number of fouls with 27-21.

And it was 25-15 or 26-16 at one point. Thankfully we led so they had to foul, evening up the ridiculous disparity and proving again, we get all the calls. :rolleyes:

duketaylor
01-30-2017, 10:47 PM
At what point do we move on to what could be a sensational finish to this year? We've heard plenty of negative things, now we've won 2 road games in a row and have 3 of next 4 games at home. Yes, I know the road game's at UVA and one of the home games is uncheats. Still, chance for a good run, IMO. K should, I think, be back Saturday, and we're closer to full-strength. Smells like Duke's time to make a push and define ourselves. I liked what I saw tonight despite some officiating. Defense much better, IMO. Energy level much better. Grayson with confidence. I like!!

devildeac
01-30-2017, 10:52 PM
So is Coach Capel earning his stripes?:cool:

Please don't mention stripes...

...or whistles.


:mad:

weezie
01-30-2017, 10:56 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of potentially bad news, but you may have another really annoying media night:

Looks like potentially another uber-analyzed Allen "thing".


Fiji the Great must be so proud! Sitting at home in the dim light of his screen, rocking back and forth, wearing a bed sheet and muttering about how awful Duke is.

It's a beautiful thing!

Billy Dat
01-30-2017, 10:58 PM
I thought the first half was as good as we have looked all season when you factor in the importance of the game, the quality of the opponent and the fact that this particular foe has owned us for the past 3 years. I thought ND knocked us back with their intensity to start the second half but we weathered every run.

Jones' quick thinking flash to the hoop on the baseline out of bounds and then his steal and lay-up killed one run. Grayson had the 3 and 2 when they had cut it to 1, and Harry's put back and 2-2 from the line put the nail in the coffin. All 3 "reponses" were vitally important.

Tatum was a man tonight and, if you notice, he rarely caught or handled the ball at the top of the key. He had mismatches and was driving on fools! His board work was glorious and he played smarter than he has shown.

Luke had some now trademark filthy offensive sequencea, but he did commit some dimb fouls, especially his 4th. He and Grayson handled the rock a lot, and Grayson's overall performance was extremely good. Amile is getting there again, Frank was trustworthy, Vrank must be thrilled (wither Chase?)

Very very very solid win, maybe this team has turned a corner. Psyched for Capel!

-bdbd
01-30-2017, 11:03 PM
I really tend to disdain conspiracy theories in general, and in particular ones about how "they" - in this case ESPN - are out to get us. But, swelling with pride I went to their website, originally for the box score. But then I looked at their 1.5 minute video "game summary." Despite Duke's great, season best performance, beating a top-20 team on their home court, they actually are showing more ND highlights than Duke ones -- 4 ND made baskets to 3 for Duke. One of the ND buckets shown is the one the refs 'somehow' took away from them (drawing a T from the apparently righteously outraged Brey)...". Geeez!

The theme could be "Irish fight back, overcome terrible reffing, with near-miracle comeback."

rsvman
01-30-2017, 11:04 PM
I don't know for sure but somebody commented that Chase was out because of a back problem or something along those lines. As if we haven't had enough injuries already!

jimsumner
01-30-2017, 11:06 PM
I don't know for sure but somebody commented that Chase was out because of a back problem or something along those lines. As if we haven't had enough injuries already!

Jeter had a procedure for a herniated disk in his back last week. A timeline for his return has not been announced.

weezie
01-30-2017, 11:06 PM
Anybody else think that K will be at RDU when the plane lands tonight?

mkirsh
01-30-2017, 11:08 PM
Regarding Bolden's minutes...whatever else is wrong with him physically, The hulking Geben played 7 minutes and was abused by Amile. ND was generally small and we played small also. In any case he was not needed tonight. Methinks he will be when we play the Heels.

Duke has played small the last few games, rarely going with the double big look of Amile with Giles/Bolden. Not sure if that is due to injury (Chase appeared to be is street clothes tonight), or recent matchups, or if the coaches think the team plays better small. Guess we will find out against UNC if Duke goes back to the bigger line up, or tries to force the Heels to go small.

Amile is looking more and more like himself. He's clearly not 100%, but seems to be getting better each game (despite short rest and travel this week). Not surprisingly, the defense is much better when he is in the line up and mobile.

After a lot of criticism, Capel was great tonight. He mixed in some presses to get ND out of rhythm, and put Tatum in the mid post where he is much better than when he faces up from the 3 point line. He gambled a bit leaving amile in with 4, but Giles was great the last few minutes so it paid off.

Starting to gell as a team - great step forward tonight.

rsvman
01-30-2017, 11:16 PM
I don't think for a minute that Coach K didn't have any impact on this game. My guess is that Capel and K have been in close communication with regards to defensive unity, offensive roles, lineups, etc throughout this process, but especially in the past week or so. Not to take anything away from Capel, but I think it was a joint coaching effort.

gofurman
01-30-2017, 11:18 PM
How wet is that blanket you're holding?

His post is not a wet blanket. ( post 66) It's a great win. Superb! First half D was tremendous. Awesome. I heard the guys yelling 'ice'etc as they rotated... The post was just noting that (interestingly) Notre D doesn't run ball-screen O which is a valid point to watch going forward vs Pitt etc. if we struggle w our next ball-screen O team then we should wonder ...have we improved on D or was Brey just not willing to run ball-screen O to take advantage of us? If we look good going forward in our next few games - AND I HOPE WE DO -then the answer is we turned a corner. I hope Wake and ND are season defining games.

Hope Bolden is ok. I suspect it was working w Amile and Tatum so well that a few minutes for Giles (ESP when Amile fouled ) were all that were needed.

Want to note I was so glad - and it worked !!! - to see us go to Amile early in the game on purpose. He scored a layup or two inside easily. Set up our outside O. Wouldn't have minded going to him a few more times. He missed a chippy we set for him later. He seemed to get a pretty easy shot the few times we fed it to him. Granted, nd is a smallish team. AJ has skills around the basket. I like seeing him purposely used 5+ times a game. Keeps a D honest

Great win

gotoguy
01-30-2017, 11:21 PM
I guess you're too young to remember the greatest non-Duke bball game ever. Dakich shuts down 23 in NCAA tourney game held in Charlotte of all places. Last college game for Jordan, I believe and undermanned Indiana trashes no. 1 heels.

That game was at the old Omni in Atlanta on my birthday and I was there. One of my favorite birthday presents.

NashvilleDevil
01-30-2017, 11:22 PM
His post is not a wet blanket. It's a great win. Superb! First half D was tremendous. Awesome. I heard the guys yelling 'ice'etc as they rotated... The post was just noting that (interestingly) Notre D doesn't run ball-screen O which is a valid point to watch going forward vs Pitt etc. if we struggle w our next ball-screen O team then we should wonder ...have we improved on D or was Brey just not willing to run ball-screen O to take advantage of us? If we look good going forward in our next few games - AND I HOPE WE DO -then the answer is we turned a corner. I hope Wake and ND are season defining games.

Hope Bolden is ok. I suspect it was working w Amile and Tatum so well that a few minutes for Giles (ESP when Amile fouled ) were all that were needed.

Want to note I was so glad - and it worked !!! - to see us go to Amile early in the game on purpose. He scored a layup or two inside easily. Set up our outside O. Wouldn't have minded going to him a few more times. He missed a chippy we set for him later. He seemed to get a pretty easy shot the few times we fed it to him. Granted, nd is a smallish team. AJ has skills around the basket. I like seeing him purposely used 5+ times a game. Keeps a D honest

Great win

It is a great win and considering the struggles Duke has had with Notre Dame since they entered the league I do think the post was a little wet in the blanket area.

Olympic Fan
01-30-2017, 11:25 PM
That game was at the old Omni in Atlanta on my birthday and I was there. One of my favorite birthday presents.

I was there too ... beautiful weekend, especially since 48 hours after stuffing UNC, Indiana lost to a Virginia team that finished 6-8 in the ACC and were 17-11 on selection sunday.

ricks68
01-30-2017, 11:31 PM
Pleasantly surprised.
Grit and hustle that had been missing was key to the win.

Luke's out of bounds save to Grayson for the three has to be the play of the game.

Let's Go Duke!!!!

Second thing you noted on the board that I strongly agree with tonight, but I will also add that our free throw accuracy locked it down for sure.:D Real concentration and desire to win the game.

ricks

jv001
01-30-2017, 11:34 PM
A great road win on short rest and against a team that had our number for the last few games. A few observations on our guys tonight: Matt was very good and on top of his game. Hit a 3, a steal and layup, played good defense on a very good swing man, made his FTs, kept the team under control and scored 16 points. Grayson with his second game in a row that made me think he's getting close to the Grayson of 2016 and once again kept his emotions under control. His 21 points led the way. Luke..ND tried their best to contain him but he played under control without forcing the issue. A solid 16 points. Jayson played under control the majority of the game. The first 3 or 4 minutes were not so good but give him credit for turning it around quickly. We needed the 18 and 14 he gave us tonight. Especially the 14 rebounds. I liked the way he played off Luke and Grayson. This is what we need from #0. Amile played a steady game and for the first part of the game played a good low post game. I don't know why we went away from that for the rest of the game. Maybe he was hurting and couldn't push off his injured foot. But it was a great team victory and now let's beat Pitt. GoDuke!

CoachJ10
01-30-2017, 11:35 PM
We got contributions from everyone tonight. It was fun to see good old fashioned team basketball. ND is somehow an incredibly efficient offense, and we did a very nice job on defense making them take difficult shots. Colson is machine...w/o him making a ton of very difficult shots tonight, we win this going away.

Really impressed with Jayson and Matt tonight. They both played their roles to perfection.

I don't want to...but I have to say this....can the ACC just have an intervention with these refs? Not only are they incredibly inconsistent, they also are simply just making a lot of bad calls. I have often wondered how the best college basketball conference in the country can employ such subpar officials.

ricks68
01-30-2017, 11:39 PM
I laughed at the one "Grayson Allen Drinks O'Douls"

Reminded me of the one three years ago, "Jabari Parker listens to Nickelback"

After seeing all the clever signs out there tonight, I think the Crazies have a lot of work to do. IMHO, we have fallen waaaaaay back in that department.:o

ricks

killerleft
01-30-2017, 11:41 PM
I really tend to disdain conspiracy theories in general, and in particular ones about how "they" - in this case ESPN - are out to get us. But, swelling with pride I went to their website, originally for the box score. But then I looked at their 1.5 minute video "game summary." Despite Duke's great, season best performance, beating a top-20 team on their home court, they actually are showing more ND highlights than Duke ones -- 4 ND made baskets to 3 for Duke. One of the ND buckets shown is the one the refs 'somehow' took away from them (drawing a T from the apparently righteously outraged Brey)...". Geeez!

The theme could be "Irish fight back, overcome terrible reffing, with near-miracle comeback."

If they're not showing a Duke game, why go there at all? Way too much chaff, very little wheat. Wheat? Wait, that doesn't sound too bad...

The Gipper is dead. Long live the Tripper.

ricks68
01-30-2017, 11:45 PM
Until the next loss.

Gotta agree with this, too.:rolleyes:

ricks

NYBri
01-31-2017, 12:15 AM
How wet is that blanket you're holding?

"Truth? You can't handle the truth." :cool:

JMarley50
01-31-2017, 12:20 AM
Hope Bolden is ok. I suspect it was working w Amile and Tatum so well that a few minutes for Giles (ESP when Amile fouled ) were all that were needed.

I think everyone that keeps mentioning the small lineup being the possible reason for Bolden not playing is forgetting something. Vrank has played over him the last two games. I'm puzzled. He appeared to be healthy in the clips of warmups. His demeanor looked fine on the sidelines, and in the locker room after. His play against Miami was solid and showed he was ready for more minutes.

I saw where someone on Twitter mentioned a couple of the guys had the flu, but it seemed like he wouldn't even dress if that were the case. It almost seems like he is getting that Sheed doghouse treatment. Hopefully it is something minor like the flu or a pulled muscle that hasn't been reported and not something off-court or locker room related. He seems like a solid kid, who was finally getting his legs back under him, now he's benched...

westwall
01-31-2017, 12:21 AM
With Amile and Luke out down the stretch, the rest of the team finishes quite well. I'll take it any day! -jk

I'll take it EVERY day!

duke4ever19
01-31-2017, 01:26 AM
It will be official when espn decides to post the video. It's only a matter of time. . .

So far espn hasn't caught wind of it. I give it 30 minutes max.

Well, I was wrong by a couple hours, but the newest chapter in the Allen tripping saga was finally posted to the homepage of espn.

BigWayne
01-31-2017, 03:32 AM
Well, I was wrong by a couple hours, but the newest chapter in the Allen tripping saga was finally posted to the homepage of espn.

Neil Everett covered it with glee on the LA version of Sportscenter. Not my favorite anchor.

SlapTheFloor
01-31-2017, 05:44 AM
Neil Everett covered it with glee on the LA version of Sportscenter. Not my favorite anchor.

Don't care. ESPN isn't going to ruin this for me. We've just had our biggest win of the season, our second straight road win, and are back on the positive side of .500 in conference play. Plus, it feels like we're starting to establish an offensive and defensive identity. We have a very winnable game at home coming up against Pitt and then the foul horde on Thursday. Go Duke!

duke74
01-31-2017, 06:00 AM
To quote one of my favorite Crazie chants, "It doesn't matter! It just doesn't matter!"
Love, Ima

As noted by Bill Murray in "Meatballs". https://youtu.be/e9mf3Bypyk8

Indoor66
01-31-2017, 07:35 AM
As one the posters giving JT hell these past few days, he sure played well this evening. Hats off to him. GA was tough as nails and seems to be getting that GA edge back to his game. Am really curious why MB saw no action at all.

As one who gave him serious hell, I am happy to see him play in a manner that allowed the game to come to him. He did not force it. More importantly, the team had movement tonight - not a lot of standing around waiting for someone to do something. There are a lot more driving and shooting opportunities when there is movement. Jason took advantage of those that were his. This is the key. Also, the constant movement allows better opportunity for rebounds as the defense is not in a set position. It all goes together.

Indoor66
01-31-2017, 07:44 AM
Will it be ok for Duke to go to the tourney now? Can Tatum go too? Or will it be the NIT with Jayson losing his scholarship?

Give it a rest. Tatum deserved all of the criticism and still needs to do it again and again. Also, Duke did not look like a tourney team for a stretch. Their record during that stretch was also not tourney worthy. That said, evaluation of the team and individuals is a season long issue (KenPom aside!)

Indoor66
01-31-2017, 07:47 AM
Really big win for the good guys. I don't think Notre Dame is that good this year, and they seem to be reverting to the mean a bit of late, but given the problem Brey's offenses normally cause Duke, it was a subjectively great, great win. Add to it winning two gritty road games in a row after not having notched any road wins prior, and this was a huge stretch for the team's season.

I thought everyone who played made some very valuable contributions at different moments.

Grayson is a bit mercurial and could easily face a setback, but over these last few games it looks like he has learned how to embrace the hate and start having some fun out there again. One of my favorite moments of the game was when the fans were being especially obnoxious while Grayson was at the line after getting fouled on a jumper and he swished both free throws, got subbed out, and walked over to the bench just holding his follow through the whole way. He could save a busload of orphans every day for the rest of the year and all the haters would still be there, so he might as well just lean into it a bit. Relatedly, I thought the 3 and subsequent pull-up 2 he hit back-to-back after ND cut it to two were the biggest plays of the game.

To me it looks like he may be nearly healthy and able to move, cut and play. No more injury and he will become 100% and then watch out.

Indoor66
01-31-2017, 07:51 AM
We got contributions from everyone tonight. It was fun to see good old fashioned team basketball. ND is somehow an incredibly efficient offense, and we did a very nice job on defense making them take difficult shots. Colson is machine...w/o him making a ton of very difficult shots tonight, we win this going away.

Really impressed with Jayson and Matt tonight. They both played their roles to perfection.

I don't want to...but I have to say this...can the ACC just have an intervention with these refs? Not only are they incredibly inconsistent, they also are simply just making a lot of bad calls. I have often wondered how the best college basketball conference in the country can employ such subpar officials.

Remember the points of emphasis for this year. We are seeing the results and it ain't pretty. The refs are continuing to call things to clean up play and reduce contact - like we all wanted them to do....:confused:

rocketeli
01-31-2017, 08:10 AM
Oh look, the coaches simplified the defense, went more to the inside, and told Matt Jones (with love I'm sure) that he is not in fact a member of the Curry family and needs to play his game, and the result was better play and a nice win. Nobody tell dutchbluebieber.

Ggallagher
01-31-2017, 08:20 AM
I thought his comment about let's find the latest Duke Villain was a money line. He was a good color analyst. My 1st time with him as an announcer for ESPN. I hope he gets more Duke games.

I thought Dakich did a good job covering the game too ---- BUT, he kind of really stepped up and gave what I thought was a pretty good commentary in support of Grayson. I'm not sure that's the kind of thing the chiefs at ESPN want to be hearing from their employees.

My first thought at the end of that Grayson speech was, "Well, that's the last time ESPN let's him do a Duke game"

Billy Dat
01-31-2017, 08:27 AM
Oh look, the coaches simplified the defense, went more to the inside, and told Matt Jones (with love I'm sure) that he is not in fact a member of the Curry family and needs to play his game, and the result was better play and a nice win. Nobody tell dutchbluebieber.

Matt had an incredible game, 16 points, 5-5 from the line, 5 boards, and 3 huge buckets at key moments. For the first time ever that I can recall, the coaches called his number to drive on a mismatch at the end of the first half. When we were reeling a bit at the end of the first half with mounting foul trouble, he ran point, just like he did for huge chunks of last year and early this year. I think he also played a game high 38 minutes. The kid has a knack for making big plays, enough that I think we have to live with the games when he shoots poorly on open 3s, which he is instructed to take. Also, despite his always having a tough defensive assignment, he is rarely in foul trouble. He started last night and we got our biggest win of the year. I am writing these notes as much to remind myself of what he does as to counter anti Matt sentiment. He may be the most Duke player on the roster.

Saratoga2
01-31-2017, 08:30 AM
I thought the first half was as good as we have looked all season when you factor in the importance of the game, the quality of the opponent and the fact that this particular foe has owned us for the past 3 years. I thought ND knocked us back with their intensity to start the second half but we weathered every run.

Jones' quick thinking flash to the hoop on the baseline out of bounds and then his steal and lay-up killed one run. Grayson had the 3 and 2 when they had cut it to 1, and Harry's put back and 2-2 from the line put the nail in the coffin. All 3 "reponses" were vitally important.

Tatum was a man tonight and, if you notice, he rarely caught or handled the ball at the top of the key. He had mismatches and was driving on fools! His board work was glorious and he played smarter than he has shown.

Luke had some now trademark filthy offensive sequencea, but he did commit some dimb fouls, especially his 4th. He and Grayson handled the rock a lot, and Grayson's overall performance was extremely good. Amile is getting there again, Frank was trustworthy, Vrank must be thrilled (wither Chase?)

Very very very solid win, maybe this team has turned a corner. Psyched for Capel!

Not only wither Chase (is he still nursing a back injury?) and wither Bolden (not played due to a small opponent? or then why was Vrank played?), wither Javin (he is raw but just may be our best athlete with a high motor) and wither Jack (certainly not needed last night). The point being, we have a deep bench gaining in capability through practice. Some of them may be needed down the line in matchup situations, through foul trouble or further injuries. Not are we coming together but we are deep.

Matches
01-31-2017, 08:51 AM
Agreed with others this was our best win so far this season. Very solid team effort. Loved the adjustment to use Tatum more as a slasher rather than him shooting 18-foot fadeaways. Grayson looked more like himself. Giles showed improvement and made some nice plays at game's end. Strong effort all around and a good win over a quality opponent.

bluenorth
01-31-2017, 08:59 AM
We got contributions from everyone tonight. It was fun to see good old fashioned team basketball. ND is somehow an incredibly efficient offense, and we did a very nice job on defense making them take difficult shots. Colson is machine...w/o him making a ton of very difficult shots tonight, we win this going away.

Really impressed with Jayson and Matt tonight. They both played their roles to perfection.

I don't want to...but I have to say this...can the ACC just have an intervention with these refs? Not only are they incredibly inconsistent, they also are simply just making a lot of bad calls. I have often wondered how the best college basketball conference in the country can employ such subpar officials.

I have to agree. It is bewildering to try to make sense of some of the calls that have been made, especially over the past two games. For referees, being assigned a game between two teams that are ranked in the top 25 is a reward for work well done earlier in the season, as well as an audition for the post season. One could therefore reasonably expect to see a good crew on the floor. Definitely not the case. These three guys were guessing far too often for this level of play. It's a bit of a reminder that come tournament time strange calls can and will be made. All you can do is hope that not too many of them will go against your team.

As far as the actual play, loved to see the improved defence. The game plan was well done, so kudos to the coaches for putting it together and to the players for implementing it.

uh_no
01-31-2017, 09:06 AM
Not only wither Chase (is he still nursing a back injury?)

he had back surgery last week...it seems unlikely he'd be back that quickly.

Troublemaker
01-31-2017, 09:10 AM
His post is not a wet blanket. ( post 66) It's a great win. Superb! First half D was tremendous. Awesome. I heard the guys yelling 'ice'etc as they rotated... The post was just noting that (interestingly) Notre D doesn't run ball-screen O which is a valid point to watch going forward vs Pitt etc. if we struggle w our next ball-screen O team then we should wonder ...have we improved on D or was Brey just not willing to run ball-screen O to take advantage of us? If we look good going forward in our next few games - AND I HOPE WE DO -then the answer is we turned a corner. I hope Wake and ND are season defining games.

ND ran plenty of ball-screen offense. (And that's how they killed us last season, incidentally). It's actually quite possible that if you tallied up how much PNR they ran, it was MORE than recent opponents because Notre Dame would often run several PNRs on the same possession. (Duke's defense would successfully snuff out the first or second attempts!)

Don't let the fact that they have a bunch of white guys fool you into thinking that they only ran off-ball screens for shooters. In fact, Farrell and Vasturia are accomplished drivers and PNR ball-handlers.

If there is a word of caution to be thrown about this game, it would be that we played a vet-heavy rotation, similar to the minutes against Florida, as I noted upthread. We already knew that the vets could play good D and good O. It was the integration of the freshmen that was the issue, and we will have to play Harry and Marques more going forward, most likely.


Oh look, the coaches simplified the defense, went more to the inside, and told Matt Jones (with love I'm sure) that he is not in fact a member of the Curry family and needs to play his game, and the result was better play and a nice win. Nobody tell dutchbluebieber.

There was no "simplified defense." Lol. It was the same stuff. And Matt would've shot 8 open threes again if he had received 8 open threes. Terrible post by you.

flyingdutchdevil
01-31-2017, 09:35 AM
1) Matt Jones had another super Matt Jones-y game. What is a Matt Jones-y game, you ask? It's when Matt Jones plays stellar defense and has either an atrocious offensive game or a superb offensive game. Matt Jones scoring 8 points on 3-7 shooting is not a Matt Jones-y game. Matt Jones is not capable of shooting around ~40%; he either needs to shoot lights out or go stone cold. It's really funny, actually. And note - this isn't a knock on Matt Jones. The dude is essential to this team. I hope the coaching staff realized their massive mistake by temporarily removing Matt Jones from the starting line-up.

2) What is happening to our half-court defense? There did that come from? It's sooooooooooo much better than anything we've seen this year against such a strong opponent. Well come to Capel - and the starting 5 - for executing that. Kennard didn't look overmatched. Tatum was all over the place. Jefferson was Jefferson and Jones was Jones.

3) Tatum was spectacular. I wrote a pretty lengthy post on Tatum, saying he's at his best when he puts the ball on the floor or he's in motion. And that was on full display yesterday. Against a pro-typical 4, Tatum is unbelievable. He can get anywhere he wants. And this is the Tatum that we want to see. By far his best ACC game thus far this year. And as far as the TOs go? I also think that is Tatum. He's gonna turn the ball over. A lot. He needs to work on it, but don't expect a massive reduction in TOs.

4) Allen is getting it back! His shot is falling. He's active on offense. He's solid on defense. He's not getting baited. I don't wanna say this is vintage Allen, but he's in the process of becoming vintage Allen. And that's a beautiful thing.

5) Tatum at the 3 was a nice experiment. When given options, Coach K will opt for a spread 4. 'Nuf said.

6) Giles still needs plenty of time. Like others have said, he had a great last 4 mins. The first 36? Not good. Some players - like Matt Jones - have plenty of phantom fouls. Not Giles. You know when he fouls. It's really obvious. He needs to stop being so opportunistic on the defensive end and just play solid man-to-man and help D.

7) We have righted the ship. My horrible analogy lives on! (well, I am the only using it...) Let's raise those %$#@ masts against Pitt.

Kfanarmy
01-31-2017, 09:53 AM
I really tend to disdain conspiracy theories in general, and in particular ones about how "they" - in this case ESPN - are out to get us. But, swelling with pride I went to their website, originally for the box score. But then I looked at their 1.5 minute video "game summary." Despite Duke's great, season best performance, beating a top-20 team on their home court, they actually are showing more ND highlights than Duke ones -- 4 ND made baskets to 3 for Duke. One of the ND buckets shown is the one the refs 'somehow' took away from them (drawing a T from the apparently righteously outraged Brey)...". Geeez!

The theme could be "Irish fight back, overcome terrible reffing, with near-miracle comeback."

In fairness, the call that drew the T was a close call. The ND faithful were sure that their player was in the act ...and a coach getting T'd up shows emotion that sells advertising. Fortunately the officials were evenly crappy a few minutes later when they did the same to Duke (Kennard?) and ND fouled him going to the rim. You really counted how many plays for each team on the highlight?

szstark
01-31-2017, 10:11 AM
In fairness, the call that drew the T was a close call. The ND faithful were sure that their player was in the act ...and a coach getting T'd up shows emotion that sells advertising. Fortunately the officials were evenly crappy a few minutes later when they did the same to Duke (Kennard?) and ND fouled him going to the rim. You really counted how many plays for each team on the highlight?

I really thought it was a terrible call at the time and that we had really dodged a bullet, but watching it again this morning, the actual foul that was called takes place when Matt puts two hands on the ND player at the foul line, long before the shot. He is fouled again on the shot, but the called foul was first.

dyedwab
01-31-2017, 10:12 AM
I want to point out a lot good things that happened last night, since I have been a little down about us this year

1) The focus, energy and decision making was really good tonight. Even during Notre Dame's early second half run, I thought we were playing with energy and focus - they were just making good plays. And when they closed almost all of our 13 point lead, we didn't let it snowball and showed more composure than we had in other games this season. And we were much better at decision-making - a lot fewer hero-ball drives, more extra passing, better communication on defense, etc. Sure, there were lapses, but not as often as they had been

2) We run out offense through Luke and Grayson. It seems that the Wake game solidified that decision and made it easier on everybody and, IMHO, was what allowed Jayson to have a good a game as he did. He didn't need to be the person handling the ball, and creating the shot, and deciding whether to pass. I think that helped

3) We played really good defense. Notre Dame is a really good offensive team, and for the most part, we made them work for what they got. They just are better at making plays than a lot of the other teams we play

4) Henry Giles can rebound. When he wasn't in foul trouble, you could see that he really has an ability for pulling down boards. Hopefully, he can stay on the court longer...

4) This feels like the Louisville game in 2015. I'm not gonna draw further analogies, but like that game, we went into a difficult road environment a little bit unsure about how we would respond, especially on the defensive end. And then we played extremely well, controlled a game against a quality opponent, and started to figure our what our identity was. Again, I refuse to draw further conclusion, but this feels pretty good.

MCFinARL
01-31-2017, 10:14 AM
Matt had an incredible game, 16 points, 5-5 from the line, 5 boards, and 3 huge buckets at key moments. For the first time ever that I can recall, the coaches called his number to drive on a mismatch at the end of the first half. When we were reeling a bit at the end of the first half with mounting foul trouble, he ran point, just like he did for huge chunks of last year and early this year. I think he also played a game high 38 minutes. The kid has a knack for making big plays, enough that I think we have to live with the games when he shoots poorly on open 3s, which he is instructed to take. Also, despite his always having a tough defensive assignment, he is rarely in foul trouble. He started last night and we got our biggest win of the year. I am writing these notes as much to remind myself of what he does as to counter anti Matt sentiment. He may be the most Duke player on the roster.

Yes--Matt does so many things so well, and so quietly--he is easy to undervalue, especially when what we most notice are the nights when his shot is off. And I don't think there is ever a moment when he is giving less than his best, most focused effort on the court.


1)
6) Giles still needs plenty of time. Like others have said, he had a great last 4 mins. The first 36? Not good. Some players - like Matt Jones - have plenty of phantom fouls. Not Giles. You know when he fouls. It's really obvious. He needs to stop being so opportunistic on the defensive end and just play solid man-to-man and help D.


Yes, he has a lot to learn. But to be fair, last night his fourth foul may have been the biggest phantom foul of the night--he went straight up, there was virtually no contact at all, and he was called for over the back. That is the kind of foul call you get, unfortunately, when the refs expect you to foul.


In fairness, the call that drew the T was a close call. The ND faithful were sure that their player was in the act ...and a coach getting T'd up shows emotion that sells advertising. Fortunately the officials were evenly crappy a few minutes later when they did the same to Duke (Kennard?) and ND fouled him going to the rim. You really counted how many plays for each team on the highlight?

I actually didn't think it was that close; on replay it looked like Brey and the ND fans were clearly right--their player had started up and was in the act of shooting. I'm not sure it was the best idea for Brey to get T'd up there, though, ad revenues notwithstanding--Duke hit both of those technical foul shots and they came at an important time in the game. Show emotion, yes, but a coach has to know where to draw the line so he doesn't hurt his team.

CDu
01-31-2017, 10:16 AM
3) Tatum was spectacular. I wrote a pretty lengthy post on Tatum, saying he's at his best when he puts the ball on the floor or he's in motion. And that was on full display yesterday. Against a pro-typical 4, Tatum is unbelievable. He can get anywhere he wants. And this is the Tatum that we want to see. By far his best ACC game thus far this year. And as far as the TOs go? I also think that is Tatum. He's gonna turn the ball over. A lot. He needs to work on it, but don't expect a massive reduction in TOs.

It's worth noting that Tatum didn't play against a 4 very much tonight. Yes, he played as OUR 4. But Notre Dame played the VAST majority of this game small. Colson, Gebben, Torres, and Ryan combined for just ~50 minutes in the 39:27 before Brey threw in the towel and subbed in Burns, Mooney, and Ryan for the final 33 seconds. They had VJ Beacham (a 3) playing the vast majority of the game as the 4.

Hancock 4 Duke
01-31-2017, 10:20 AM
Give it a rest. Tatum deserved all of the criticism and still needs to do it again and again. Also, Duke did not look like a tourney team for a stretch. Their record during that stretch was also not tourney worthy. That said, evaluation of the team and individuals is a season long issue (KenPom aside!)

100% agree with this. Just because some problems seem to be in the process of being solved, it doesn't mean the problems didn't deserve scrutiny in the beginning.

As a big critique of Tatum, he played exactly the way we needed him to last night. Acted as if he knew his limitations, posted up, was HUGE on the boards, and was an overall net positive.

Ballboy1998
01-31-2017, 10:22 AM
1) Matt Jones had another super Matt Jones-y game. What is a Matt Jones-y game, you ask? It's when Matt Jones plays stellar defense and has either an atrocious offensive game or a superb offensive game. Matt Jones scoring 8 points on 3-7 shooting is not a Matt Jones-y game. Matt Jones is not capable of shooting around ~40%; he either needs to shoot lights out or go stone cold. It's really funny, actually. And note - this isn't a knock on Matt Jones. The dude is essential to this team. I hope the coaching staff realized their massive mistake by temporarily removing Matt Jones from the starting line-up.

This is a very funny observation that I definitely agree with. I think part of why the coaches love Matt and the fans often get frustrated is that he doesn't let the results of given shots impact his game plan, which (within reason) is what you want. If he gets what is considered a good look in the offense -- for him this generally means either an open, set 3 or a drive when the defense is closing out in an out of control way (though I realize how a lot of folks around here feel about Matt's drives -- he will take it whether he missed the last 8 or made the last 8. Similarly, even if he made the last 8, he generally wont take any "heat check" or bad shots that are outside his normal game. Most importantly, whether he hits every shot or misses every shot, his effort on the defensive end is unaffected, which is something that will hopefully be contagious with our younger players over time.

Funnily enough, Matt made at least one play last night that I think cuts against my above analysis when he took a dribbling step-back jumper from the top of the key, which he swished. That is definitely not one of his normal offensive shots, and I will admit that I was yelling "what are you doi... good shot!" at the TV.

Billy Dat
01-31-2017, 10:23 AM
Yes, he has a lot to learn. But to be fair, last night his fourth foul may have been the biggest phantom foul of the night--he went straight up, there was virtually no contact at all, and he was called for over the back. That is the kind of foul call you get, unfortunately, when the refs expect you to foul.

When he picked up that foul, I was in a bad mental place, saying to myself something along the lines of "he has a foul for every minute he has played!!!"...but then Amile fouls out, the coaches go back to him, and he beats Colson, the ACC's leading rebounder, for the key board and putback of the game, and then he magically hits two huge FTs. Big, clutch plays for big HG. Much like the Kennard 3 against Wake erased a poor outing by Duke, Harry erased a subpar outing with a few epic minutes of play.


I actually didn't think it was that close; on replay it looked like Brey and the ND fans were clearly right--their player had started up and was in the act of shooting. I'm not sure it was the best idea for Brey to get T'd up there, though, ad revenues notwithstanding--Duke hit both of those technical foul shots and they came at an important time in the game. Show emotion, yes, but a coach has to know where to draw the line so he doesn't hurt his team.

It was an explosion that started on the completely botched call where Vasturia was set for roughly 30 minutes before Tatum bowled him over on the prior play. Those two sequences were adjacent and, as you say, ND was mounting a serious run at that point. The whistle certainly favored us on that sequence, but, as others have said, they made up for it eventually. Two of our starters fouled out with a lot of time on the clock. Remarkable that we go 23-24 from the line...more of that, please.

CDu
01-31-2017, 10:23 AM
Yes, he has a lot to learn. But to be fair, last night his fourth foul may have been the biggest phantom foul of the night--he went straight up, there was virtually no contact at all, and he was called for over the back. That is the kind of foul call you get, unfortunately, when the refs expect you to foul.

I think he had two pretty bad foul calls. The over the back and a phantom call on a box-out. That said, he does get handsy a lot, and most of his fouls are earned. But last night I think he got the short end of the stick.



I actually didn't think it was that close; on replay it looked like Brey and the ND fans were clearly right--their player had started up and was in the act of shooting. I'm not sure it was the best idea for Brey to get T'd up there, though, ad revenues notwithstanding--Duke hit both of those technical foul shots and they came at an important time in the game. Show emotion, yes, but a coach has to know where to draw the line so he doesn't hurt his team.

Yeah, I don't have much problem at all admitting we got at least one break in that sequence. The play before that was clearly a charge by Tatum, but went for an and-1 for us. Then, there is the foul on Gibbs' drive to the basket. I'm 50/50 on this one. The announcers made a big deal about when the whistle itself was blown. But that's irrelevant. Whistles can be late. If the official called a hand-check on the drive (and there was certainly contact prior to Gibbs picking up the dribble), then the correct call was made. If the official was calling the contact after Gibbs picked up his dribble (and there was definitely contact after he picked up the dribble), then the call of "on the floor" was bogus. I THINK that the official was calling the hand check. But I am not 100% certain. Either way, it sure LOOKED bad.

That being said, I agree that Brey hurt the team with his tech there.

Ballboy1998
01-31-2017, 10:31 AM
Yeah, I don't have much problem at all admitting we got at least one break in that sequence. The play before that was clearly a charge by Tatum, but went for an and-1 for us. Then, there is the foul on Gibbs' drive to the basket. I'm 50/50 on this one. The announcers made a big deal about when the whistle itself was blown. But that's irrelevant. Whistles can be late. If the official called a hand-check on the drive (and there was certainly contact prior to Gibbs picking up the dribble), then the correct call was made. If the official was calling the contact after Gibbs picked up his dribble (and there was definitely contact after he picked up the dribble), then the call of "on the floor" was bogus. I THINK that the official was calling the hand check. But I am not 100% certain. Either way, it sure LOOKED bad.

That being said, I agree that Brey hurt the team with his tech there.

Not so sure, it seemed to me that the refs definitely let Brey and the crowd's reaction get to them there and followed up with a string of weak makeup calls, which then got them moving downhill in feeling a need to call every slight contact they saw for the rest of the game for consistency's sake. I thought the first portion of the game was adequately officiated and it was about as clear example I've seen of an officiating crew getting a bit discombobulated by one bad sequence that put them in reaction/overcompensation mode for for the rest of the game.

kAzE
01-31-2017, 10:40 AM
1) Matt Jones had another super Matt Jones-y game. What is a Matt Jones-y game, you ask? It's when Matt Jones plays stellar defense and has either an atrocious offensive game or a superb offensive game. Matt Jones scoring 8 points on 3-7 shooting is not a Matt Jones-y game. Matt Jones is not capable of shooting around ~40%; he either needs to shoot lights out or go stone cold. It's really funny, actually. And note - this isn't a knock on Matt Jones. The dude is essential to this team. I hope the coaching staff realized their massive mistake by temporarily removing Matt Jones from the starting line-up.

Love it . . . I've always thought that our starting lineup for this game would be the best starting 5, until Giles is ready. But even then, how do you take Matt Jones off the floor? He's the best glue guy you could possibly have. Even with with 3 freshmen playing crunch time with Matt and Grayson, it never felt like we were in danger. Matt just never gets rattled and is the best guy to have in a huddle. You can see it. Even Amile gets worked up sometimes, but Matt is just poker face all day every day. Doesn't matter if he's shooting lights out or can't throw it in the ocean.

That said, I was extremely impressed with the way those 3 freshmen played after Amile and Luke fouled out. They've come a long way since 2 weeks ago. I'm extremely confident that we will continue to improve. We turned the corner last game, and now it's time to step on the gas.

flyingdutchdevil
01-31-2017, 10:44 AM
Love it . . . I've always thought that our starting lineup for this game would be the best starting 5, until Giles is ready. But even then, how do you take Matt Jones off the floor? He's the best glue guy you could possibly have. Even with with 3 freshmen playing crunch time with Matt and Grayson, it never felt like we were in danger. Matt just never gets rattled and is the best guy to have in a huddle. You can see it. Even Amile gets worked up sometimes, but Matt is just poker face all day every day. Doesn't matter if he's shooting lights out or can't throw it in the ocean.

That said, I was extremely impressed with the way those 3 freshmen played after Amile and Luke fouled out. They've come a long way since 2 weeks ago. I'm extremely confident that we will continue to improve. We turned the corner last game, and now it's time to step on the gas.

Whoa. Amile gets worked up ALL THE TIME. Whether it's arguing to refs or chewing out Frank Jackson (and it really only seems to be Frank Jackson), Amile gets worked up like crazy.

But agree with you on Matt. Love the dude.

kAzE
01-31-2017, 10:50 AM
Whoa. Amile gets worked up ALL THE TIME. Whether it's arguing to refs or chewing out Frank Jackson (and it really only seems to be Frank Jackson), Amile gets worked up like crazy.

But agree with you on Matt. Love the dude.

Yeah, you're actually kind of right. But I feel like this type of behavior wasn't typical of Amile until this year. I think he and Matt are a bad cop/good cop duo in practice, and that definitely shows in games.

I'd wager a good sum of cash that Amile was not a pleasant guy in the player's only meeting that took place after the meeting with Coach K last week.

CDu
01-31-2017, 10:51 AM
Yeah, you're actually kind of right. But I feel like this type of behavior wasn't typical of Amile until this year though. I think he and Matt are a bad cop/good cop duo in practice, and that definitely shows in games.

I'd wager a good sum of cash that Amile was not a pleasant guy in the player's only meeting that took place after the meeting with Coach K last week.

I think Jefferson did this last year, too. We just forget because it happened really early in the season. And prior to last year, Jefferson was not one of the primary leaders on the team. So of course we didn't see it from him earlier in his career.

Billy Dat
01-31-2017, 10:53 AM
We have righted the ship. My horrible analogy lives on! (well, I am the only using it...) Let's raise those %$#@ masts against Pitt.

I thought that they were angels but to my surprise
They climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies
Singing come sail away come sail away
Come sail away with me
Come sail away come sail away
Come sail away with me!!!!!!!

tbyers11
01-31-2017, 10:53 AM
Whoa. Amile gets worked up ALL THE TIME. Whether it's arguing to refs or chewing out Frank Jackson (and it really only seems to be Frank Jackson), Amile gets worked up like crazy.

But agree with you on Matt. Love the dude.

Agree that Amile does need work on the frequency (with the refs) and the tone (with his teammates) of his getting worked up. He is the vocal leader but needs to pick his spots a bit more.

However, I was surprised that we didn't get a bigger reaction from him when he got his fifth foul on a really bad call by an out-of-position ref. He walked straight to the sideline and I thought it was key that he maintained his poise at that time.

DukieInBrasil
01-31-2017, 11:05 AM
I actually didn't think it was that close; on replay it looked like Brey and the ND fans were clearly right--their player had started up and was in the act of shooting. I'm not sure it was the best idea for Brey to get T'd up there, though, ad revenues notwithstanding--Duke hit both of those technical foul shots and they came at an important time in the game. Show emotion, yes, but a coach has to know where to draw the line so he doesn't hurt his team.

I think the ref called the foul on the body bump during the drive. Just cuz the whistle sounded while he was in the act of shooting doesn't mean that is when the ref spotted the foul. In the NBA that's clearly a continuation call. I suspect the ref called the foul for contact while driving.

COYS
01-31-2017, 11:09 AM
I think the ref called the foul on the body bump during the drive. Just cuz the whistle sounded while he was in the act of shooting doesn't mean that is when the ref spotted the foul. In the NBA that's clearly a continuation call. I suspect the ref called the foul for contact while driving.

The referees were awful for both teams. After that particular call, Duke got whistled for a barrage of touch fouls. Also, the fact that Tatum was not called for a charge on the play right before this particular continuation no-call made up for the time he didn't get and and-one when he was smacked in the face after sinking a shot in the lane earlier.

There's actually a really interesting article on fivethirtyeight that demonstrates that home-field advantage is real and it's mostly due to more favorable officiating. The article focuses on football, but the results presumably carry over to other sports.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nfl-coaches-yell-at-refs-because-it-freakin-works/

Ballboy1998
01-31-2017, 11:16 AM
The referees were awful for both teams. After that particular call, Duke got whistled for a barrage of touch fouls. Also, the fact that Tatum was not called for a charge on the play right before this particular continuation no-call made up for the time he didn't get and and-one when he was smacked in the face after sinking a shot in the lane earlier.

There's actually a really interesting article on fivethirtyeight that demonstrates that home-field advantage is real and it's mostly due to more favorable officiating. The article focuses on football, but the results presumably carry over to other sports.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nfl-coaches-yell-at-refs-because-it-freakin-works/

Refs are human too, and I have no doubt that at the margin knowing that making a call one way will lead to boos raining down can impact them at times, even if subconsciously.

One of my favorite moments as a Cameron Crazy was one game where I was in the front row at the top of the key and was yelling to the ref positioned nearby that a particular player on the other team was hooking with his elbow every time down the floor. While it was surely a coincidence, one of the next couple trips down the floor that ref called the guy for an offensive foul which led directly into a TV timeout. As he trotted down the floor with it relatively quiet for the TV timeout I yelled out towards him "now that's some high quality officiating!" and he grinned and nodded at me.

Rich
01-31-2017, 11:22 AM
2) What is happening to our half-court defense? There did that come from? It's sooooooooooo much better than anything we've seen this year against such a strong opponent. Well come to Capel - and the starting 5 - for executing that. Kennard didn't look overmatched. Tatum was all over the place. Jefferson was Jefferson and Jones was Jones.

I honestly think these last two Saturday-Monday games in a row have helped us because we've essentially had a whole week of practice in between. We finally have a full crew (sans Jeter now) that can practice and learn their defensive assignments, which we all know from the gifs are really, really hard and take a lot of work. What's coming together now usually comes together in October-November.

brlftz
01-31-2017, 11:28 AM
Give it a rest. Tatum deserved all of the criticism and still needs to do it again and again. (KenPom aside!)

I strongly disagree. People weren't just questioning his play, they were questioning his character and attitude. He absolutely did not deserve that.

duketaylor
01-31-2017, 11:33 AM
I honestly think these last two Saturday-Monday games in a row have helped us because we've essentially had a whole week of practice in between. We finally have a full crew (sans Jeter now) that can practice and learn their defensive assignments, which we all know from the gifs are really, really hard and take a lot of work. What's coming together now usually comes together in October-November.

I agree with that, the extended period of time for practice, then back-to-back games seems to have helped. Now we have another 5-day wait for the next game before finishing out the season with a more traditional schedule. Three straight Saturday home games at 1PM. Nice.

We looked so much more team-like last night. Let's finish strong and have a magical post-season!!

brlftz
01-31-2017, 11:38 AM
7) We have righted the ship. My horrible analogy lives on! (well, I am the only using it...)

Not at all! Your invention, but I kept thinking about that during the game. Thought it was interesting and plausible. Hope it continues to be correct!

FerryFor50
01-31-2017, 11:41 AM
I think he had two pretty bad foul calls. The over the back and a phantom call on a box-out. That said, he does get handsy a lot, and most of his fouls are earned. But last night I think he got the short end of the stick.


The over the back call was terrible not just because it was a bad call, but because the official that made it was at half court, BEHIND the play. How is he going to see a foul on Giles from there? X-ray vision?

As for the box out call, I believe it was actually Giles in the lane with both hands up trying to keep post position and not really moving. The ND player moved right into Giles' arm, which caused the ref to call the foul. Pretty awful call.

Kfanarmy
01-31-2017, 11:48 AM
I strongly disagree. People weren't just questioning his play, they were questioning his character and attitude. He absolutely did not deserve that.


Balance: He had several plays over the past few weeks where upon missing a shot, making a bad pass, or complaining about a foul, he stood/sauntered up court putting the entire defense at risk....He played very well in the 2nd half yesterday and Duke doesn't win without his contributions. OTOH, he had several pretty bad misses, turnovers, and fouls in the first half that enabled ND to stay in the game. All-in-all a work in progress that gets better with each passing game!

FerryFor50
01-31-2017, 11:53 AM
Balance: He had several plays over the past few weeks where upon missing a shot, making a bad pass, or complaining about a foul, he stood/sauntered up court putting the entire defense at risk...He played very well in the 2nd half yesterday and Duke doesn't win without his contributions. OTOH, he had several pretty bad misses, turnovers, and fouls in the first half that enabled ND to stay in the game. All-in-all a work in progress that gets better with each passing game!

Yea, but there were people cheering that he fouled out and saying he shouldn't be playing at all. It's silly.

flyingdutchdevil
01-31-2017, 11:54 AM
I strongly disagree. People weren't just questioning his play, they were questioning his character and attitude. He absolutely did not deserve that.

I'm not so sure. Tatum has always had a positive attitude. He only gets mad at himself. Posters were criticizing his offensive and defensive mentality, which I think is different from character and attitude.

I - amongst others - have criticized Amile's attitude, especially towards refs and teammates. But no one questions Amile's offensive and defensive mentality.

Tatum has dropped anchor during the ND game. Let's see if he can right the ship during Pitt.

kAzE
01-31-2017, 11:57 AM
I'm not so sure. Tatum has always had a positive attitude. He only gets mad at himself. Posters were criticizing his offensive and defensive mentality, which I think is different from character and attitude.

I - amongst others - have criticized Amile's attitude, especially towards refs and teammates. But no one questions Amile's offensive and defensive mentality.

Tatum has dropped anchor during the ND game. Let's see if he can right the ship during Pitt.

To be fair, I screamed at my TV (towards Tatum) a couple of times in the first half because of some bad turnovers and horrible, contested shot attempts, but he quickly won me over with his dominant play in the 2nd half. I'm sure he will continue to frustrate and exhilarate us all at once for many games to come.

Troublemaker
01-31-2017, 12:02 PM
I'm not so sure. Tatum has always had a positive attitude. He only gets mad at himself. Posters were criticizing his offensive and defensive mentality, which I think is different from character and attitude.

I - amongst others - have criticized Amile's attitude, especially towards refs and teammates. But no one questions Amile's offensive and defensive mentality.

Tatum has dropped anchor during the ND game. Let's see if he can right the ship during Pitt.

People were definitely calling him selfish. It didn't help that a former N&O beat writer was piling on via twitter (https://twitter.com/laurakeeley/status/823716682380222464) as well. Really piling on (https://twitter.com/laurakeeley/status/823717774988079104).

wsb3
01-31-2017, 12:29 PM
Forgive me if this has been posted...Link to Capel's Post Game.. I found it pretty interesting.


http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200

flyingdutchdevil
01-31-2017, 12:31 PM
People were definitely calling him selfish. It didn't help that a former N&O beat writer was piling on via twitter (https://twitter.com/laurakeeley/status/823716682380222464) as well. Really piling on (https://twitter.com/laurakeeley/status/823717774988079104).

Damn, Laura! Harsh words!

I don't think of Tatum as selfish but more misguided.

NSDukeFan
01-31-2017, 12:41 PM
Is it time yet for my 35-5 tattoo or should I wait a bit? 😀

kAzE
01-31-2017, 12:41 PM
People were definitely calling him selfish. It didn't help that a former N&O beat writer was piling on via twitter (https://twitter.com/laurakeeley/status/823716682380222464) as well. Really piling on (https://twitter.com/laurakeeley/status/823717774988079104).


I think you could accurately describe his performance on the court for that 4 game stretch as selfish. He may not have been thinking "me first," and he may really just not have seen the open guys on the court when he put his head down and tried to score. That's fine. That can be corrected through good coaching.

He had a few "selfish" plays in the first half of the Notre Dame game, too. He was posted up on the left block at one point in the first half with plenty of time on the shot clock, and inexplicably decided to take a horrendous turnaround fadeaway jumper that was woefully short, and led directly to a fast break layup going the other way, when any other player would have passed it back to the perimeter.

There's different ways to describe that play, but I don't think it's out of bounds to just call it selfish. And that's really okay, as long as this type of stuff doesn't lose us games. He's a freshman who's been the absolute star of stars on every team he's ever played for until now. He will learn to trust his teammates as he gets more games under his belt.

But to me, saying someone played selfishly is not the same thing as saying he's a selfish person who only cares about his personal highlight reel or stats, or that he only cares about getting to the NBA. That's taking it too far.

SlapTheFloor
01-31-2017, 12:48 PM
The over the back call was terrible not just because it was a bad call, but because the official that made it was at half court, BEHIND the play. How is he going to see a foul on Giles from there? X-ray vision?

As for the box out call, I believe it was actually Giles in the lane with both hands up trying to keep post position and not really moving. The ND player moved right into Giles' arm, which caused the ref to call the foul. Pretty awful call.

Not to take away from Bonzie, he plays with a lot of heart, but, to some extent, he gets away with being an undersized 4/5 because of the way the college game is officiated now. It's almost impossible to post someone up. Any attempt to back a guy down, e.g. the way Shaq used to in the NBA, gets called a charge. I remember Okafor doing it to him two years ago and getting called for the foul and it feels like they've gotten even tighter this year. And, most of the time if you grab a rebound over someone who is in position, you get called for an over the back as Giles was. As a fan of post play, I really hate it.

Troublemaker
01-31-2017, 12:50 PM
I think you could accurately describe his performance on the court for that 4 game stretch as selfish. He may not have been thinking "me first," and he may really just not have seen the open guys on the court when he put his head down and tried to score. That's fine. That can be corrected through good coaching.

He had a few "selfish" plays in the first half of the Notre Dame game, too. He was posted up on the left block at one point in the first half with plenty of time on the shot clock, and took a horrendous turnaround fadeaway jumper that was woefully short, when any other player would have passed it back to the perimeter. There's different ways to describe that play, but I don't think it's out of bounds to just call it selfish. And that's really okay, as long as this type of stuff doesn't lose us games. He's a freshman who's been the absolute star of stars on every team he's ever played for until now. He will learn to trust his teammates as he gets more games under his belt.

But to me, saying someone played selfishly is not the same thing as saying he's a selfish person who only cares about his personal highlight reel or stats, or that he only cares about getting to the NBA. That's taking it too far.

Agreed. That's a good distinction to make, KaZe. Thanks! My feeling is that some people were taking it too far, Ms. Keeley included.

cato
01-31-2017, 01:04 PM
People were definitely calling him selfish. It didn't help that a former N&O beat writer was piling on via twitter (https://twitter.com/laurakeeley/status/823716682380222464) as well. Really piling on (https://twitter.com/laurakeeley/status/823717774988079104).

Dang Laura. I missed those, since I stopped following her went she went full 1L. But her prediction back in the fall that Giles would not crack 10 minutes is starting to feel spot on.

kAzE
01-31-2017, 01:09 PM
Dang Laura. I missed those, since I stopped following her went she went full 1L. But her prediction back in the fall that Giles would not crack 10 minutes is starting to feel spot on.

Really? I dunno about that. He's just gotta learn how to defend without fouling, that's all. Hopefully he learns how to do it faster than the Plumlees did. All 3 of those guys were foul machines early in their careers. I'd say outside of his fouls, he was very good last night. No one can compete with him on rebounds. He's the best rebounder I've seen in a Duke uniform since the Landlord was patrolling the paint. I believe his per-40 rebounding numbers also back that up. Once he puts some muscle on that frame, he will be a major problem for anyone trying to box him out.

jimmymax
01-31-2017, 01:15 PM
Funny how a win has folks singing Capel's and Tatum's praises, after tearing them apart after a loss.

Guess I'm a half-empty guy because I'm not sold. Overall the second-half D was not very good, and I think the first-half was more about ND being bad.

Once again we have a seven-man rotation: OK if Giles can play smart. Guess that means no more depth/minutes threads -- time to crank up the transfer talk!

And was that the best ESPN has to offer? That Dakich guy had me longing for Dick Vitale, Al McGuire, even Digger. He was unbearable at any volume.

Matches
01-31-2017, 01:17 PM
Agreed. That's a good distinction to make, KaZe. Thanks! My feeling is that some people were taking it too far, Ms. Keeley included.

Yea I don't know that Keeley would ever even have had occasion to meet Tatum, since she was off the beat by the time he arrived on campus. Maybe during a visit or an interview or something. More likely she was basing her opinion on what she's seeing on the court, the way most of us are, and that's tricky. Tatum isn't a particularly good passer, no question he's a ball-stopper and he takes some bad shots. But going from there to "he's selfish" or "he only cares about his NBA prospects" is a huge leap that's probably unwarranted.

And he was terrific last night. Not just good - terrific. IMO the best game he's played at Duke.

NM Duke Fan
01-31-2017, 01:22 PM
Really? I dunno about that. He's just gotta learn how to defend without fouling, that's all. Hopefully he learns how to do it faster than the Plumlees did. All 3 of those guys were foul machines early in their careers. I'd say outside of his fouls, he was very good last night. No one can compete with him on rebounds. He's the best rebounder I've seen in a Duke uniform since the Landlord was patrolling the paint. I believe his per-40 rebounding numbers also back that up. Once he puts some muscle on that frame, he will be a major problem for anyone trying to box him out.

I will be surprised if he is not up past 10 minutes by sometime in February myself.

CDu
01-31-2017, 01:32 PM
Really? I dunno about that. He's just gotta learn how to defend without fouling, that's all. Hopefully he learns how to do it faster than the Plumlees did. All 3 of those guys were foul machines early in their careers. I'd say outside of his fouls, he was very good last night. No one can compete with him on rebounds. He's the best rebounder I've seen in a Duke uniform since the Landlord was patrolling the paint. I believe his per-40 rebounding numbers also back that up. Once he puts some muscle on that frame, he will be a major problem for anyone trying to box him out.

He can certainly earn more than 10 mpg. But if we are going to go with Tatum primary at the 4, there is a definite cap on his minutes. Jefferson is going to play 30+ minutes if he is healthy and out of foul trouble. Tatum is going to play 30+ minutes if he is out of foul trouble. That leaves less than 20 mpg for any other bigs. So unless Tatum spends more time at the 3 (which he hasn't done recently) or Jefferson plays less, there aren't a ton of minutes to be had for Giles. Even if he cuts down on his fouls.

And his per-40 rebounding numbers are actually even better than Williams' numbers.

Kedsy
01-31-2017, 01:47 PM
He's the best rebounder I've seen in a Duke uniform since the Landlord was patrolling the paint. I believe his per-40 rebounding numbers also back that up.


And his per-40 rebounding numbers are actually even better than Williams' numbers.

Indeed. Shelden's best rebound-per-minute season was his junior year, when he had 13.3 rebs per 40. Harry currently grabs 15.5 rebs per 40. But that does not make Harry the best Duke rebounder since the Landlord, because Brian Zoubek in 2010 had 16.6 rebs per 40.

If you like rebounding percentage better, I don't have those numbers for Shelden, but Z was still a little better than Harry:

Brian Zoubek: 21.5% OR%; 24.6 DR%; 23.1% overall rebounding %
Harry Giles: 19.2% OR%; 24.2 DR%; 21.8% overall

Still, pretty good company for Harry from a rebounding standpoint.

CDu
01-31-2017, 01:49 PM
Indeed. Shelden's best rebound-per-minute season was his junior year, when he had 13.3 rebs per 40. Harry currently grabs 15.5 rebs per 40. But that does not make Harry the best Duke rebounder since the Landlord, because Brian Zoubek in 2010 had 16.6 rebs per 40.

If you like rebounding percentage better, I don't have those numbers for Shelden, but Z was still a little better than Harry:

Brian Zoubek: 21.5% OR%; 24.6 DR%; 23.1% overall rebounding %
Harry Giles: 19.2% OR%; 24.2 DR%; 21.8% overall

Still, pretty good company for Harry from a rebounding standpoint.

Yeah, the one thing Giles has consistently done at an elite level in college is rebound. On both ends of the floor, he has been utterly fantastic on the glass. There are still a lot of holes to his game right now as he regains his confidence and adjusts to the college game. But he's a stud on the glass.

flyingdutchdevil
01-31-2017, 01:51 PM
Indeed. Shelden's best rebound-per-minute season was his junior year, when he had 13.3 rebs per 40. Harry currently grabs 15.5 rebs per 40. But that does not make Harry the best Duke rebounder since the Landlord, because Brian Zoubek in 2010 had 16.6 rebs per 40.

If you like rebounding percentage better, I don't have those numbers for Shelden, but Z was still a little better than Harry:

Brian Zoubek: 21.5% OR%; 24.6 DR%; 23.1% overall rebounding %
Harry Giles: 19.2% OR%; 24.2 DR%; 21.8% overall

Still, pretty good company for Harry from a rebounding standpoint.

Damn. Harry Long Arms can rebound. Thanks for the stats. Really interesting.

kAzE
01-31-2017, 01:54 PM
Indeed. Shelden's best rebound-per-minute season was his junior year, when he had 13.3 rebs per 40. Harry currently grabs 15.5 rebs per 40. But that does not make Harry the best Duke rebounder since the Landlord, because Brian Zoubek in 2010 had 16.6 rebs per 40.

If you like rebounding percentage better, I don't have those numbers for Shelden, but Z was still a little better than Harry:

Brian Zoubek: 21.5% OR%; 24.6 DR%; 23.1% overall rebounding %
Harry Giles: 19.2% OR%; 24.2 DR%; 21.8% overall

Still, pretty good company for Harry from a rebounding standpoint.

Ooh, you got me there. Still, Harry's not bad for a 18 year old freshman who hasn't played basketball in 2 years. Just imagine what he would do in a college game if he was 100% back from his injuries and as physically matured as Big Z was when he was a senior. I don't think it would be a contest. Based on potential, Harry might be the best rebounder we've ever had. But I know, that's like saying Kyrie Irving is the best ball handler we've ever had. It's true, but OAD is OAD :(

snowdenscold
01-31-2017, 01:58 PM
I am guessing this will be controversial but I liked Dakish? as the color guy.


And was that the best ESPN has to offer? That Dakich guy had me longing for Dick Vitale, Al McGuire, even Digger. He was unbearable at any volume.

I'm with Utley here - I really enjoyed Dakich and would happily have him again for future games.
Had shades of Bobby Knight (where I felt I was gaining actual insights into the game)... without the curmudgeonliness.

cato
01-31-2017, 02:04 PM
He can certainly earn more than 10 mpg. But if we are going to go with Tatum primary at the 4, there is a definite cap on his minutes. Jefferson is going to play 30+ minutes if he is healthy and out of foul trouble. Tatum is going to play 30+ minutes if he is out of foul trouble. That leaves less than 20 mpg for any other bigs. So unless Tatum spends more time at the 3 (which he hasn't done recently) or Jefferson plays less, there aren't a ton of minutes to be had for Giles. Even if he cuts down on his fouls.

And his per-40 rebounding numbers are actually even better than Williams' numbers.

Indeed. January is done. I would not be surprised to see Tatum logging most of his minutes at the 4 for the last 1.5 - 2 months of the season.

Matchups and foul trouble will dictate a lot, but based on recent performance, we are going to see a lot of Grayson, Luke, Matt, Jayson and Amile (please, please no more injuries).

It's not like Coach K is going to come back and expand the rotation. And it's not like the competition in the post is going to get a whole lot easier.

cato
01-31-2017, 02:10 PM
Ooh, you got me there. Still, Harry's not bad for a 18 year old freshman who hasn't played basketball in 2 years. Just imagine what he would do in a college game if he was 100% back from his injuries and as physically matured as Big Z was when he was a senior. I don't think it would be a contest. Based on potential, Harry might be the best rebounder we've ever had. But I know, that's like saying Kyrie Irving is the best ball handler we've ever had. It's true, but OAD is OAD :(

The things was -- we got to see Kyrie at full strength. At this point, it just doesn't look like we will see Giles competing at the height of his ability. There just isn't time left in the season.

The two most remarkable statements by frosh after January that I can remember were Elliot Williams and Grayson Allen, both of whom were healthy and had had months working full speed in the system.

ETA: I don't know if adding CDu to the starting lineup counts, but he also closed his freshman year on a remarkable run. Again, he had a lot to build on.

English
01-31-2017, 02:20 PM
Yeah, the one thing Giles has consistently done at an elite level in college is rebound. On both ends of the floor, he has been utterly fantastic on the glass. There are still a lot of holes to his game right now as he regains his confidence and adjusts to the college game. But he's a stud on the glass.

Also of note, rebounding in college tends to be one of the elements of the game that NBA scouts consider fungible to the League. I expect Harry to continue improving and showing flashes throughout the rest of the season, but even if he doesn't fully hit his potential, his rebounding (and pre-injury potential itself) is likely to keep him in the lottery.

Edouble
01-31-2017, 02:23 PM
He can certainly earn more than 10 mpg. But if we are going to go with Tatum primary at the 4, there is a definite cap on his minutes. Jefferson is going to play 30+ minutes if he is healthy and out of foul trouble. Tatum is going to play 30+ minutes if he is out of foul trouble. That leaves less than 20 mpg for any other bigs. So unless Tatum spends more time at the 3 (which he hasn't done recently) or Jefferson plays less, there aren't a ton of minutes to be had for Giles. Even if he cuts down on his fouls.

And his per-40 rebounding numbers are actually even better than Williams' numbers.

Yeah, it appears that Giles will get minutes somewhere in the 12-18 range. All of Tatum's minutes appear to be earmarked for the 4 going forward. When Jayson's on the bench, looks like Amile slides down to the 4 and Harry comes in at the 5. When Amile is on the bench, Harry covers him at the 5, with Tatum still in at the 4.

Equation for Harry's minutes:

80 - (Amile's minutes + Jayson's minutes) = Harry's minutes

This assumes that Vrank is not part of the rotation.

Not sure if Bolden will work his way back in. I would not be surprised either way. If he does, it's possible we run some of the "big" lineup with Amile at the 4, Jayson at the 3, and Harry/Marques at the 5, although our defense does not seem to work as well with this lineup, Ga Tech game notwithstanding. At that point you can throw out the above equation.

Very interested to see the minutes distribution against "big" tarheel lineup.

Devilwin
01-31-2017, 02:39 PM
Our best win, in my humble opinion. Team showed a ton of fight under very adverse conditions (refs, hostile crowd , Real good Notre Dame team that fought til the end.)
Matt, Luke, Grayson, and Jayson were just nails to the end. Harry and Amile were victimized by phantom fouls, but oh well, we won in an impressive fashion. Proud of the guys this trip. Very..:cool:

kAzE
01-31-2017, 03:21 PM
The things was -- we got to see Kyrie at full strength. At this point, it just doesn't look like we will see Giles competing at the height of his ability. There just isn't time left in the season.

Sure, there is. We're still a full month away from March. Just look at how far he's come in 11 games. I wouldn't be shocked if he blew up for 20 points and 20 rebounds in a game. He's that special of a talent. He could potentially end the season with the best per 40 rebounding numbers in Duke history. It's just a matter of how far his knees progress.

English
01-31-2017, 03:44 PM
Sure, there is. We're still a full month away from March. Just look at how far he's come in 11 games. I wouldn't be shocked if he blew up for 20 points and 20 rebounds in a game. He's that special of a talent. He could potentially end the season with the best per 40 rebounding numbers in Duke history. It's just a matter of how far his knees progress.

And let's not forget, Harry went for his first double-double (10 & 12 in 17min) in his fourth game back. He's a major talent.

cato
01-31-2017, 03:49 PM
Sure, there is. We're still a full month away from March. Just look at how far he's come in 11 games. I wouldn't be shocked if he blew up for 20 points and 20 rebounds in a game. He's that special of a talent. He could potentially end the season with the best per 40 rebounding numbers in Duke history. It's just a matter of how far his knees progress.

Sure, he could get a double double (no way is he getting 20 and 20 -- but if you would like to share your stash, let me know). And then he could follow that up with a DNP.

A few games ago it looked like Marques had passed Harry in the lineup. Now it has flip flopped. But the constant has been Amile and Tatum getting as many minutes as possible, and the team being unable to defend/dropping in offensive efficiency with Amile, Jayson and Harry on the floor at the same time.

The issue isn't whether Giles is capable of playing a larger role. The issue is that the coaches need to define the best lineup and then get them as much time together on the court.

How many Duke teams do you recall where a player that had been on the outside looking in suddenly jumped up to more than 20 minutes a game in February? Maybe add Zoubek to my prior list (a senior who was not recovering from in-season surgery and did not have a senior captain and potential lottery pick at the 4 and 5 ahead of him in the rotation).

cato
01-31-2017, 03:51 PM
And let's not forget, Harry went for his first double-double (10 & 12 in 17min) in his fourth game back. He's a major talent.

Indeed he is. He is a major talent who is recovering from major injuries and competing for minutes substituting for a 5th year senior captain and another major talent.

English
01-31-2017, 03:58 PM
Sure, he could get a double double (no way is he getting 20 and 20 -- but if you would like to share your stash, let me know). And then he could follow that up with a DNP.

A few games ago it looked like Marques had passed Harry in the lineup. Now it has flip flopped. But the constant has been Amile and Tatum getting as many minutes as possible, and the team being unable to defend/dropping in offensive efficiency with Amile, Jayson and Harry on the floor at the same time.

The issue isn't whether Giles is capable of playing a larger role. The issue is that the coaches need to define the best lineup and then get them as much time together on the court.

How many Duke teams do you recall where a player that had been on the outside looking in suddenly jumped up to more than 20 minutes a game in February? Maybe add Zoubek to my prior list (a senior who was not recovering from in-season surgery and did not have a senior captain and potential lottery pick at the 4 and 5 ahead of him in the rotation).

Odds are, you're probably right that Harry will continue to get his 12-18mpg, assuming his foul rate drops...but if you want to throw precedent around, how many Duke teams had a lottery pick returning from a major knee injury around the start of conference play? Tough to really predict what's going to happen when we're in uncharted territory for the season.

*ETA: I actually agree with you that we likely won't see Giles at the peak of his abilities this season, which is a shame. ACLs typically zap a player's mobility (and mental confidence in game/body) for the first year back. Historically, players tend to return to 100%, or close to it, in Year 2. That would put Giles on schedule in the first year or so of his NBA career. And, of course, that doesn't account for the time & development he lost while rehabbing. My only point, which I suppose was talking past you a bit (apologies), was to echo Kaze that Giles still has time to become a consistent and impactful contributor to the team.

MrPoon
01-31-2017, 04:17 PM
Indeed he is. He is a major talent who is recovering from major injuries and competing for minutes substituting for a 5th year senior captain and another major talent.

It's interesting because I thought Tatum would be best served at the three spot, using his size the way Singler did (his Jr yr I think). But offensively, and to a degree defensively, Tatum's shot selection and rebounding fall at the three. At the four his athleticism is way too much for college players.

So really Giles is fighting Tatum to some degree for PT. Because Amil is staying in and Amil can play the 4 or 5. Giles can't and Tatum seemed to need to be at the 4. It isn't really Amil, but Tatum playing his best at the 4 which is stopping Giles.

To me the ideal would be Tatum learning better shot selection at the 3, going big with an effective Giles at the 5. Jones and Jackson then come in as subs that can help on D, add grit and a different type of scoring. Plus then Tatum could shift in to the 4. All that to say, we are still working to greater flexability. That should scare the hell out of everyone.

What I liked about last night: D in first half, efficient offense the entire game, but especially in the second half. While close and I still don't trust this team, the game never felt in doubt to me. The efficiency of scoring and rebounding was really impressive. And there was a confidence on our scouring, we just knew the points would come. Don't know how to better explain it than that.

Lastly really thought Capel was sharp last night. Really great idea on what he wanted from the team and how to stay ahead of ND. Would have liked a TO around the 8 min. mark. When we wern't getting stops. But that is about it. Oh, and I really worry about Bolden. But that may be for a different post.

MCFinARL
01-31-2017, 04:26 PM
I think he had two pretty bad foul calls. The over the back and a phantom call on a box-out. That said, he does get handsy a lot, and most of his fouls are earned. But last night I think he got the short end of the stick.




Yeah, I don't have much problem at all admitting we got at least one break in that sequence. The play before that was clearly a charge by Tatum, but went for an and-1 for us. Then, there is the foul on Gibbs' drive to the basket. I'm 50/50 on this one. The announcers made a big deal about when the whistle itself was blown. But that's irrelevant. Whistles can be late. If the official called a hand-check on the drive (and there was certainly contact prior to Gibbs picking up the dribble), then the correct call was made. If the official was calling the contact after Gibbs picked up his dribble (and there was definitely contact after he picked up the dribble), then the call of "on the floor" was bogus. I THINK that the official was calling the hand check. But I am not 100% certain. Either way, it sure LOOKED bad.

That being said, I agree that Brey hurt the team with his tech there.

Very good point about the Tatum call, which seemed clearly wrong. And you are right that, in the second case, it depends which foul they meant to call--when watching I was more focused on the later contact, and that was probably easiest for the ND coaches and fans to see as well.

CDu
01-31-2017, 04:30 PM
It's interesting because I thought Tatum would be best served at the three spot, using his size the way Singler did (his Jr yr I think). But offensively, and to a degree defensively, Tatum's shot selection and rebounding fall at the three. At the four his athleticism is way too much for college players.

I have a slightly different take. I think Tatum is a better run/jump/strength athlete at his size than the vast majority of college 3s too. I think the real reason that Tatum has played better at the 4 is because his skills just aren't quite right for a college 3. He's a good but not great ballhandler. He's only a so-so (at best) perimeter shooter. And he's not the quickest guy around (though he can certainly jump and has long arms). So he's better suited to play the 4 with 3 perimeter guards around him. That allows him to post up with a less congested lane. It allows him more driving lanes (few post defenders off ball). And yes, some of the time it allows him to match up against inferior athletes.

Tatum's great game last night came largely against college 3s being asked to play up a spot as Notre Dame played the vast majority of the game with 4 guards. So while it is true he played at the 4, it wasn't like he was playing against typical college 4s. That's what makes his game all the more impressive: he torched guys who should have been able to stay in front of him.

CDu
01-31-2017, 04:33 PM
Very good point about the Tatum call, which seemed clearly wrong. And you are right that, in the second case, it depends which foul they meant to call--when watching I was more focused on the later contact, and that was probably easiest for the ND coaches and fans to see as well.

Yeah, that's the thing that I think most people (including Dakich, who otherwise did well) missed: Gibbs was fouled twice on the play by the same guy. One of those fouls was a non-shooting foul, the other was. The official didn't blow the whistle until Gibbs was shooting, which is what caused Brey's reaction and Dakich's reaction. But if the official was calling the first foul then it wasn't an incorrect call; instead, just a late whistle.

Edouble
01-31-2017, 04:58 PM
I have a slightly different take. I think Tatum is a better run/jump/strength athlete at his size than the vast majority of college 3s too. I think the real reason that Tatum has played better at the 4 is because his skills just aren't quite right for a college 3. He's a good but not great ballhandler. He's only a so-so (at best) perimeter shooter. And he's not the quickest guy around (though he can certainly jump and has long arms). So he's better suited to play the 4 with 3 perimeter guards around him. That allows him to post up with a less congested lane. It allows him more driving lanes (few post defenders off ball). And yes, some of the time it allows him to match up against inferior athletes.

Tatum's great game last night came largely against college 3s being asked to play up a spot as Notre Dame played the vast majority of the game with 4 guards. So while it is true he played at the 4, it wasn't like he was playing against typical college 4s. That's what makes his game all the more impressive: he torched guys who should have been able to stay in front of him.

Can you reconcile this?

CDu
01-31-2017, 05:01 PM
Can you reconcile this?

College 3s are ideally better perimeter shooters than Tatum. With the shorter line, you really want your 3 to hit 3s. Tatum isn't that guy.

Tatum's skill set is that of a college 4. Can he play well as a college 3? Sure. But his skill set is that of a college 4.

I think the reason it worked was because we have the floor spaced more with him at the 4. So when he did sneak by those 3s, there was less traffic waiting for him. Against the same guys but with Tatum at the 3? I don't know that he finishes so well.

sagegrouse
01-31-2017, 05:04 PM
I have a slightly different take. I think Tatum is a better run/jump/strength athlete at his size than the vast majority of college 3s too. I think the real reason that Tatum has played better at the 4 is because his skills just aren't quite right for a college 3. He's a good but not great ballhandler. He's only a so-so (at best) perimeter shooter. And he's not the quickest guy around (though he can certainly jump and has long arms). So he's better suited to play the 4 with 3 perimeter guards around him. That allows him to post up with a less congested lane. It allows him more driving lanes (few post defenders off ball). And yes, some of the time it allows him to match up against inferior athletes.

Tatum's great game last night came largely against college 3s being asked to play up a spot as Notre Dame played the vast majority of the game with 4 guards. So while it is true he played at the 4, it wasn't like he was playing against typical college 4s. That's what makes his game all the more impressive: he torched guys who should have been able to stay in front of him.

Let me put it differently: Amile, Luke and Grayson are gonna play. So is Tatum. So, as the fifth starter, you are comparing Giles, Bolden, Frank Jackson and Matt. If you start Giles, then you sit both Matt and Frank. So, who adds more to the team? Thus far, we seem to be saying that Matt Jones does. Ideally, we would have a rotation that provided minutes for all of these guys.

jv001
01-31-2017, 05:04 PM
I think you could accurately describe his performance on the court for that 4 game stretch as selfish. He may not have been thinking "me first," and he may really just not have seen the open guys on the court when he put his head down and tried to score. That's fine. That can be corrected through good coaching.

He had a few "selfish" plays in the first half of the Notre Dame game, too. He was posted up on the left block at one point in the first half with plenty of time on the shot clock, and inexplicably decided to take a horrendous turnaround fadeaway jumper that was woefully short, and led directly to a fast break layup going the other way, when any other player would have passed it back to the perimeter.
There's different ways to describe that play, but I don't think it's out of bounds to just call it selfish. And that's really okay, as long as this type of stuff doesn't lose us games. He's a freshman who's been the absolute star of stars on every team he's ever played for until now. He will learn to trust his teammates as he gets more games under his belt.

But to me, saying someone played selfishly is not the same thing as saying he's a selfish person who only cares about his personal highlight reel or stats, or that he only cares about getting to the NBA. That's taking it too far.

I think I'm correct that this is the play that after missing the shot, Jayson made a half hearted swipe at the ball. But as you say, it was a run out the other way. Jayson needed to get back down court. Man, did he turn it around after that. Matter of fact I gave him my vote in MOTM over a great Matt Jones game and a very good Grayson game. GoDuke!

kAzE
01-31-2017, 05:04 PM
Can you reconcile this?

My take is not that he's a bad college 3, I just think Matt, Grayson, and Luke are so good and so essential to this team, that putting Jayson at the 4 just allows us to have our best players on the floor. Having Jayson at the 4 with Amile or Harry at the 5 essentially gives us 4 guards and a big to space the floor on offense, while still having 3 guards and 2 bigs on defense. Jayson's versatility allows us to switch more on defense and create more mismatches on offense.

Last night's game was a great example. No matter who they used to guard Luke, Grayson, and Jayson, there was always a mismatch to exploit, and we did that to perfection. They could not stop us from scoring, so they went ultra-small, which allowed Jayson to grab a ton of boards and score over them in the paint. Brey's decision to play 4-5 guards in the 2nd half really allowed Jayson to dominate the game.

jv001
01-31-2017, 05:30 PM
He can certainly earn more than 10 mpg. But if we are going to go with Tatum primary at the 4, there is a definite cap on his minutes. Jefferson is going to play 30+ minutes if he is healthy and out of foul trouble. Tatum is going to play 30+ minutes if he is out of foul trouble. That leaves less than 20 mpg for any other bigs. So unless Tatum spends more time at the 3 (which he hasn't done recently) or Jefferson plays less, there aren't a ton of minutes to be had for Giles. Even if he cuts down on his fouls.

And his per-40 rebounding numbers are actually even better than Williams' numbers.

I would like to see Harry earn minutes so Amile can get back close to 100%. If both can be at 100% come ACCT time, then the team can be that much better. I'm not advocating playing both together unless Harry plays his way into that role. I really liked the way we went to Amile in the low post at the beginning of the game. He made some of the moves he made earlier in this season and last season(pre-injury). I wonder if the reason we quit going there had any thing with Amile hurting as the game went on. GoDuke!

English
01-31-2017, 05:39 PM
I would like to see Harry earn minutes so Amile can get back close to 100%. If both can be at 100% come ACCT time, then the team can be that much better. I'm not advocating playing both together unless Harry plays his way into that role. I really liked the way we went to Amile in the low post at the beginning of the game. He made some of the moves he made earlier in this season and last season(pre-injury). I wonder if the reason we quit going there had any thing with Amile hurting as the game went on. GoDuke!

This stood out to me, as well. Amile scored six quick points in the first 3-4min of the game on his slithering offense around the hoop. He attempted one more of these moves all game, which happened in the second-half stretch that ND ripped off 12 unanswered points (a decent enough effort that just didn't fall, guarded by Colson). Amile finished the game with six points.

It's unclear if they went away from it because the defense was sufficiently stretched after the initial Amile 6pts or what, but it was working like magic, and then it was gone. After the first five minutes of game action, I was reveling in the early season Amile's return. I even had to explain to my wife why Amile doesn't score like that more often.

InSpades
01-31-2017, 05:45 PM
For all the critique of the refs on the block/charge call on Jayson's drive... the most egregious missed call of the game was on Jayson's 1st half layup where he was slapped in the head/face while taking the shot. With all the ticky-tacky calls we got this game (and there were plenty) to miss a shooter getting hit in the head is really bad. What were they watching if not the shooter?

The breakdown of the fouls was really weird too... the 1st half saw Duke get called for 9 and ND get called for 6. However in the 2nd half Duke got called for 18 fouls! Nearly 1 per minute. ND was called for 15 but about 6 of those were intentional fouls late in the game.

The start of the 2nd half was especially foul filled. With 6:03 gone in the 1st half there had been 14 fouls called. The longest stretch of the 2nd half w/out a foul called was 2:19. Only 2 of the 20 minutes in the 2nd half saw no foul called.

There were 9 fouls called in the span of 2:12 (and this was not at the end of the 2nd half, 16:09 to 13:57).

I'm not saying the refs were biased in any way but... 33 fouls in the 2nd half seems excessive (even 27 if you discount the 6 intentional fouls).

English
01-31-2017, 05:54 PM
For all the critique of the refs on the block/charge call on Jayson's drive... the most egregious missed call of the game was on Jayson's 1st half layup where he was slapped in the head/face while taking the shot. With all the ticky-tacky calls we got this game (and there were plenty) to miss a shooter getting hit in the head is really bad. What were they watching if not the shooter?

The breakdown of the fouls was really weird too... the 1st half saw Duke get called for 9 and ND get called for 6. However in the 2nd half Duke got called for 18 fouls! Nearly 1 per minute. ND was called for 15 but about 6 of those were intentional fouls late in the game.

The start of the 2nd half was especially foul filled. With 6:03 gone in the 1st half there had been 14 fouls called. The longest stretch of the 2nd half w/out a foul called was 2:19. Only 2 of the 20 minutes in the 2nd half saw no foul called.

There were 9 fouls called in the span of 2:12 (and this was not at the end of the 2nd half, 16:09 to 13:57).

I'm not saying the refs were biased in any way but... 33 fouls in the 2nd half seems excessive (even 27 if you discount the 6 intentional fouls).

Duke biases and all that aside, but it was tough to ignore the period when the refs collectively lost their minds after the Brey T. That has to account for some of the disparity. I'm pretty sure there was a stretch of five or six possessions in a row with a Duke touch foul (some legit, some very questionable).

Another particularly odd call was Amile's fifth (which, I suppose, could've also been a phantom Kennard fifth). Farrell tried to split a double team of Jefferson & Kennard, seemed to dribble off Kennard's foot, began to dive for the loose ball, and Jefferson was whistled for the foul and the DQ. I rewound the sequence probably four times trying to figure out how this was an Amile foul to no satisfaction. Eh, thems the breaks, I guess.

slower
01-31-2017, 05:57 PM
Henry Giles

Really?

English
01-31-2017, 06:01 PM
Really?

You like that one better than this one?


So really Giles is fighting Tatum to some degree for PT. Because Amil is staying in and Amil can play the 4 or 5. Giles can't and Tatum seemed to need to be at the 4. It isn't really Amil, but Tatum playing his best at the 4 which is stopping Giles.

jv001
01-31-2017, 06:05 PM
Duke biases and all that aside, but it was tough to ignore the period when the refs collectively lost their minds after the Brey T. That has to account for some of the disparity. I'm pretty sure there was a stretch of five or six possessions in a row with a Duke touch foul (some legit, some very questionable).

Another particularly odd call was Amile's fifth (which, I suppose, could've also been a phantom Kennard fifth). Farrell tried to split a double team of Jefferson & Kennard, seemed to dribble off Kennard's foot, began to dive for the loose ball, and Jefferson was whistled for the foul and the DQ. I rewound the sequence probably four times trying to figure out how this was an Amile foul to no satisfaction. Eh, thems the breaks, I guess.

The tech on Brey cost ND two points, but after that sequence, the refs reverted to make up calls against Duke. The two points ND gave away was a slight cost to them. Duke ending up losing Amile and Luke on fouls and had more players in foul trouble. GoDuke!

MChambers
01-31-2017, 06:11 PM
This stood out to me, as well. Amile scored six quick points in the first 3-4min of the game on his slithering offense around the hoop. He attempted one more of these moves all game, which happened in the second-half stretch that ND ripped off 12 unanswered points (a decent enough effort that just didn't fall, guarded by Colson). Amile finished the game with six points.

It's unclear if they went away from it because the defense was sufficiently stretched after the initial Amile 6pts or what, but it was working like magic, and then it was gone. After the first five minutes of game action, I was reveling in the early season Amile's return. I even had to explain to my wife why Amile doesn't score like that more often.

I think he attempted at least three more of those moves, but none fell. Luckily, on at least two occasions, another Duke player got the tip-in.

Skydog
01-31-2017, 08:27 PM
I have a slightly different take. I think Tatum is a better run/jump/strength athlete at his size than the vast majority of college 3s too. I think the real reason that Tatum has played better at the 4 is because his skills just aren't quite right for a college 3. He's a good but not great ballhandler. He's only a so-so (at best) perimeter shooter. And he's not the quickest guy around (though he can certainly jump and has long arms). So he's better suited to play the 4 with 3 perimeter guards around him. That allows him to post up with a less congested lane. It allows him more driving lanes (few post defenders off ball). And yes, some of the time it allows him to match up against inferior athletes.

Tatum's great game last night came largely against college 3s being asked to play up a spot as Notre Dame played the vast majority of the game with 4 guards. So while it is true he played at the 4, it wasn't like he was playing against typical college 4s. That's what makes his game all the more impressive: he torched guys who should have been able to stay in front of him.

I think you hit the nail on the head. His particular type of athleticism (great reach and long, quick first step) and "high dribble" ball handling style serve him better when he receives the ball closer to the basket. We saw the amazing amount of ground he could cover with a single dribble/stride last night. But that same long, high dribble is a liability when he starts from the perimeter and has to work his way through traffic - it's too easy to pick off.

Jayson getting the ball closer to the basket should help us on defense as well. He's still turnover prone but obviously a turnover is not nearly as costly when it happens close to the basket and we have 3 guards able to recover quickly on defense. The perimeter turnovers kill us though.

As a team we've obviously improved a lot but it will be interesting to see how effective we are against teams with strong interior players. Can Jefferson and Tatum continue to show so well when we face bigger/better front courts? This is where I think Giles development will be important. With more confidence and improving health he should be able to rebound and score inside against anyone.

DukieInKansas
01-31-2017, 08:28 PM
Very good point about the Tatum call, which seemed clearly wrong. And you are right that, in the second case, it depends which foul they meant to call--when watching I was more focused on the later contact, and that was probably easiest for the ND coaches and fans to see as well.

And I remember watching that play thinking they were going to give him the NBA continuation for the basket. Interesting how two people watch the same play and see two different things. (I must admit, half the time I'm not sure I even see the fouls - and that isn't just the phantom fouls that get called, either.)

DukieInKansas
01-31-2017, 08:30 PM
For all the critique of the refs on the block/charge call on Jayson's drive... the most egregious missed call of the game was on Jayson's 1st half layup where he was slapped in the head/face while taking the shot. With all the ticky-tacky calls we got this game (and there were plenty) to miss a shooter getting hit in the head is really bad. What were they watching if not the shooter?

The breakdown of the fouls was really weird too... the 1st half saw Duke get called for 9 and ND get called for 6. However in the 2nd half Duke got called for 18 fouls! Nearly 1 per minute. ND was called for 15 but about 6 of those were intentional fouls late in the game.

The start of the 2nd half was especially foul filled. With 6:03 gone in the 1st half there had been 14 fouls called. The longest stretch of the 2nd half w/out a foul called was 2:19. Only 2 of the 20 minutes in the 2nd half saw no foul called.

There were 9 fouls called in the span of 2:12 (and this was not at the end of the 2nd half, 16:09 to 13:57).

I'm not saying the refs were biased in any way but... 33 fouls in the 2nd half seems excessive (even 27 if you discount the 6 intentional fouls).

If nothing else, a player holding their face might case the refs to take a look at the monitor. They seem to look at everything else.

moonpie23
01-31-2017, 08:32 PM
free throw shooting iced it...

Furniture
01-31-2017, 09:25 PM
Another nice piece from Duke planet. Player and Chapel interviews.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/826437409785073664/video/1

DU82
01-31-2017, 09:32 PM
Another nice piece from Duke planet. Player and Chapel interviews.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/826437409785073664/video/1

They interviewed a building?

(Yea, auto-correct sucks.)

Newton_14
01-31-2017, 09:41 PM
It's interesting because I thought Tatum would be best served at the three spot, using his size the way Singler did (his Jr yr I think). But offensively, and to a degree defensively, Tatum's shot selection and rebounding fall at the three. At the four his athleticism is way too much for college players.

So really Giles is fighting Tatum to some degree for PT. Because Amil is staying in and Amil can play the 4 or 5. Giles can't and Tatum seemed to need to be at the 4. It isn't really Amil, but Tatum playing his best at the 4 which is stopping Giles.

To me the ideal would be Tatum learning better shot selection at the 3, going big with an effective Giles at the 5. Jones and Jackson then come in as subs that can help on D, add grit and a different type of scoring. Plus then Tatum could shift in to the 4. All that to say, we are still working to greater flexability. That should scare the hell out of everyone.

What I liked about last night: D in first half, efficient offense the entire game, but especially in the second half. While close and I still don't trust this team, the game never felt in doubt to me. The efficiency of scoring and rebounding was really impressive. And there was a confidence on our scouring, we just knew the points would come. Don't know how to better explain it than that.

Lastly really thought Capel was sharp last night. Really great idea on what he wanted from the team and how to stay ahead of ND. Would have liked a TO around the 8 min. mark. When we wern't getting stops. But that is about it. Oh, and I really worry about Bolden. But that may be for a different post.

Great points on line ups and potential, and I also worry about Bolden. However the game felt very much in doubt to me when ND cut it to 1, crowd going crazy, all the momentum, an we were in heavy foul trouble. I feared we were fixing to get paid back for stealing the Wake game, as well as blowing another sort of big lead to ND. That's why I feel the two buckets by Grayson were so critical and instrumental in the win. Just huge, dagger shots that totally stunted the ND run and in my opinion deflated them in a big way.

alteran
01-31-2017, 09:52 PM
I strongly disagree. People weren't just questioning his play, they were questioning his character and attitude. He absolutely did not deserve that.

This.

It's one thing to say, "he isn't getting back in transition defense." It's another to say, "he isn't getting back in transition because he's auditioning for the NBA." The first is reasonable. The second is speculative, insulting BS.

Not everybody said things like the latter, but enough did that other folks spoke up.

Furniture
01-31-2017, 10:57 PM
They interviewed a building?

(Yea, auto-correct sucks.)

Bloody hell! How did I miss that?

NM Duke Fan
02-01-2017, 07:51 AM
Great points on line ups and potential, and I also worry about Bolden. However the game felt very much in doubt to me when ND cut it to 1, crowd going crazy, all the momentum, an we were in heavy foul trouble. I feared we were fixing to get paid back for stealing the Wake game, as well as blowing another sort of big lead to ND. That's why I feel the two buckets by Grayson were so critical and instrumental in the win. Just huge, dagger shots that totally stunted the ND run and in my opinion deflated them in a big way.

The fate of the game was indeed hanging on the edge of the cliff, and those two shots reversed the momentum, maybe the critical pivot point of the game.

elvis14
02-01-2017, 09:38 AM
The fate of the game was indeed hanging on the edge of the cliff, and those two shots reversed the momentum, maybe the critical pivot point of the game.

That's the reason I gave GA my MOTM match of JT. Sometimes it's not just the totals but how/when you get them.

It's amazing what a couple of wins can do to change the way I feel about the team/season (Hi, I'm recency bias, nice to meet you).

BandAlum83
02-01-2017, 11:48 AM
That's the reason I gave GA my MOTM match of JT. Sometimes it's not just the totals but how/when you get them.

It's amazing what a couple of wins can do to change the way I feel about the team/season (Hi, I'm recency bias, nice to meet you).

My favorite team is still the 1986 team. (Hi, I'm nostalgia, nice to meet you as well)