PDA

View Full Version : A little love for Jayson Tatum



jcastranio
01-28-2017, 07:32 PM
I don't think Jason is necessarily the problem or a black hole or whatever. I just think we use him incorrectly. I think he should be down on the baseline or in the low post - bouncing out for quick passes and shots. He should be the screener, rolling to the hoop or for a pick and pop. We have three guards who can initiate the action (Luke, Grayson, Frank). Jason isn't the best creator or ball-mover, yet that is where he ends up playing.

Think about it. How many times does Amile, Marques, or Harry end up with the ball after setting a screen and do nothing with it. They are not good mid-range shooters or strong drivers. If that was Jason, he would be an offensive force. Particularly since he would be 5-10 feet closer in than he is now.

Post Jason, darn it!

kAzE
01-28-2017, 07:40 PM
This is a really good call. I'm wholeheartedly on board with this idea. Use him as a real power forward. He's skilled enough to cause problems in the paint even though he's undersized. In the post, he can hit a turnaround fadeaway jumper, make a move to get inside, or find an open shooter/cutter. These are all things that are well within his skill set. Using him as the roll man in the a P&R would also really get him some open looks.

It's a matter of if he's willing to not be a primary ball handler. He's auditioning for a role in the NBA as a perimeter player, so you have to wonder whether or not that is on his mind.

JNort
01-28-2017, 07:46 PM
I think he is being used correctly. His problem has been in "transition" and I say it like that because he seems to consider "transition" offense to mean just scoring in the first 5 seconds after crossing half court. He rushes and forces things and that's his biggest problem. This isn't high school where he can get away with that, he needs to get into the flow of the game and settle down.

Many freshmen have this problem so i dont want to keep picking on him. It's why so many point guards and bigs struggle early. PGs because they have the ball so much and bigs because they can't just rely on superior height and weight. What's really been bothering people I think is that he is a 1 and done guy. If he was a lower prospect we wouldn't be as critical knowing he has another year or 3 to work it out but thats not the case he has around 20 more games to get it right.

PS. Not everything is even close to being his fault, I was just trying to respond solely on the topic of the OP.

TKG
01-28-2017, 07:48 PM
Let's not forget about the defensive end of the court.

Indoor66
01-28-2017, 07:49 PM
Let's not forget about the defensive end of the court.

Why not? He seem to.😕

gam7
01-28-2017, 08:00 PM
I don't think Jason is necessarily the problem or a black hole or whatever. I just think we use him incorrectly. I think he should be down on the baseline or in the low post - bouncing out for quick passes and shots. He should be the screener, rolling to the hoop or for a pick and pop. We have three guards who can initiate the action (Luke, Grayson, Frank). Jason isn't the best creator or ball-mover, yet that is where he ends up playing.

Think about it. How many times does Amile, Marques, or Harry end up with the ball after setting a screen and do nothing with it. They are not good mid-range shooters or strong drivers. If that was Jason, he would be an offensive force. Particularly since he would be 5-10 feet closer in than he is now.

Post Jason, darn it!

Jason Tatum's aight. Just a little frustrated with Jayson Tatum.

JNort
01-28-2017, 08:03 PM
Why not? He seem to.😕

100% agreed! This is his biggest failing and most disappointing one. With his length and athleticism he should be great on defense, however he is the worst on ball defender out of the main group of guys who get pt.

CDu
01-28-2017, 08:03 PM
Let's not forget about the defensive end of the court.

Tatum did kill the team today. His plus/minus was -1 in 21 minutes. He has certainly had rough moments this year, but our struggles today came elsewhere.

NashvilleDevil
01-28-2017, 08:06 PM
Tatum was the player I was most excited to watch in this class. When he's going he is impressive and can carry the team. Trouble is he thinks he has it going all the time and forces the issue. It is no coincidence that Duke's comeback happened after Tatum fouled out. I hope the young man sees what happens when the ball moves around on offense and effort is given on defense.

TKG
01-28-2017, 08:07 PM
Tatum did kill the team today. His plus/minus was -1 in 21 minutes. He has certainly had rough moments this year, but our struggles today came elsewhere.

Amongst the guys who get major minutes, where does he stack/rank in the plus/minus category on a YTD basis?That might temper my reliance on the eye test as indicator because it sure seems like he is atrocious on D.

NYBri
01-28-2017, 08:11 PM
It's shot selection.

And the flow seems to stop when he gets the ball.

He is a talent. Some of his plays are high on the wow-o-meter, but this is a team game.

sagegrouse
01-28-2017, 08:15 PM
I support the title of the thread: we are ebign too harsh on Jayson. Grayson's contributions as a freshman were on one-on-one plays. Luke was an erratic shooter but otherwise savvy abut the game. We may indeed be better with veterans on the floor, but hardly anyone shows up at Duke ready to play well in all or most facets of the game. And.... Jayson is an undeniable talent.

tux
01-28-2017, 08:16 PM
I think we have played some with Tatum at the 4. But we're not using him the way you're describing. Probably our best lineup right now would be Frank, Grayson, Luke, Tatum, and then one of Amile/Giles/Bolden. And then run the offense through Luke as a point forward of sorts. I feel like the Duke staff has been trying to make Tatum the point forward. And, of course, he's had some great stretches of scoring. But he's inconsistent and prone to some suspect decisions with the ball. I.e., he's a freshman...

I have to admit, I was very curious to see how Duke would finish the game with Tatum on the bench. I don't think Tatum is necessarily the problem. He's a great talent, but to your point, I don't think the team has figured out the best way to utilize his skillset.

CDu
01-28-2017, 08:20 PM
Tatum did kill the team today. His plus/minus was -1 in 21 minutes. He has certainly had rough moments this year, but our struggles today came elsewhere.

I obviously meant did NOT kill them today.

Dukehky
01-28-2017, 08:20 PM
Why not? He seem to.😕

This is just not correct.

Jayson has been one of our best efficiency defenders all year. He's the only player in the past 16 years to have over a 3% block and steals rate in the same season. He makes some stupid gambles on defense, but his length and athleticism as well as his shot blocking ability is vastly understated.

By any metric, Jayson has been far better and more efficient on the defensive end than on the offensive end.

I just want this in the record right now. Don't argue this with your eye test, because if the coaches thought that he was as bad at defense as he has been on offense, there is no way in hell that he would be playing the number of minutes he plays. The numbers support Tatum on the defensive end.

CDu
01-28-2017, 08:23 PM
Amongst the guys who get major minutes, where does he stack rank in the plus/minus category on a YTD basis?That might temper my reliance on the eye test as indicator because it sure seems like he is atrocious on D.

It really isn't a fair measure, as Tatum missed many of the early-season patsies. But his numbers are a bit lower than the veterans' numbers, a bit higher than Giles' numbers, and after today probably about the same as Bolden's.

CDu
01-28-2017, 08:25 PM
This is just not correct.

Jayson has been one of our best efficiency defenders all year. He's the only player in the past 16 years to have over a 3% block and steals rate in the same season. He makes some stupid gambles on defense, but his length and athleticism as well as his shot blocking ability is vastly understated.

By any metric, Jayson has been far better and more efficient on the defensive end than on the offensive end.

I just want this in the record right now. Don't argue this with your eye test, because if the coaches thought that he was as bad at defense as he has been on offense, there is no way in hell that he would be playing the number of minutes he plays. The numbers support Tatum on the defensive end.

My only complaints with Tatum on defense are in transition. Especially after he misses a layup. But generally speaking, his half-court defense has been solid.

wsb3
01-28-2017, 08:27 PM
Why not? He seem to.😕

What Indoor said.. I want to be nice here but I have to agree with earlier posts that Tatum fouling out might have been the defining moment in the game. I just don't feel like he has ever unpacked his bags at Durham.

Just because you are the best NBA talent on a college team does not necessarily mean you are the best college player. We are better with the offense running through Luke & Grayson IMHO..

smvalkyries
01-28-2017, 08:27 PM
Give Jayson a break- he is still 18 and has played less than 1/2 a year and practiced even less than that. You don't expect a lawyer or doctor without a residency to practice their craft perfectly in their first half year and they are 25 or 26 and aren't carrying a full academic load or working through injuries at the same time. In addition we can't really say he has been working in a stable situation where he can establish his rrole and work on it. I will also add one more observation- I haven't seen any player been called for more mystery fouls than Jayson. I men its every game he gets one or two that neither he nor I can understand. Maybe they are obvious on tape but for whatever reason Jayson seems to get a tougher deal from the refs on both ends of the court than any other Duke player. It takes time to sort all these things out. I know as a one and done we don't really have the benefit of that time but then again one of us would turn down multi-million dollar contracts to learn for 2-3 years even if it might be more fun and we might learn even faster staying in school. Accepting that one and done contract extracts a price too both in terms of present expectations and future life style.

Dukehky
01-28-2017, 08:28 PM
My only complaints with Tatum on defense are in transition. Especially after he misses a layup. But generally speaking, his half-court defense has been solid.

That's fair, although today it was the fact that he was in foul trouble and he just wanted to get in the way. Granted, he did that extremely poorly. Letting them get by and then slapping at the ball.

He also doesn't really hustle back, but I think that's more of a product of not wanting to take a charge/getting a chance to have a LeBron chase down block.

Tripping William
01-28-2017, 08:30 PM
I have a feeling that Jayson Tatum's "problem" 'round these parts is that he's no Justise Winslow. But, then again, who is?

Devilwin
01-28-2017, 08:32 PM
Jayson is a great talent, and has played very well in some games..But he to work on defense and decision making on offense. I get on him sometimes, but realize his ability, and believe he will begin to get into the flow. Duke needs for Luke to be the first option, let the offense flow through him. Jayson will get his in that scenario, as will everyone else.:cool:

JNort
01-28-2017, 08:35 PM
Give Jayson a break- he is still 18 and has played less than 1/2 a year and practiced even less than that. You don't expect a lawyer or doctor without a residency to practice their craft perfectly in their first half year and they are 25 or 26 and aren't carrying a full academic load or working through injuries at the same time. In addition we can't really say he has been working in a stable situation where he can establish his rrole and work on it. I will also add one more observation- I haven't seen any player been called for more mystery fouls than Jayson. I men its every game he gets one or two that neither he nor I can understand. Maybe they are obvious on tape but for whatever reason Jayson seems to get a tougher deal from the refs on both ends of the court than any other Duke player. It takes time to sort all these things out. I know as a one and done we don't really have the benefit of that time but then again one of us would turn down multi-million dollar contracts to learn for 2-3 years even if it might be more fun and we might learn even faster staying in school. Accepting that one and done contract extracts a price too both in terms of present expectations and future life style.
But that's the thing. If he's was a projected 3 or 4 year player then the complaints would be smaller and less vocalized because you expect him to improve and help the team later on. This isn't the case however, we have (Imma still your analogy here) gone to the doctor to have surgery done and as we are being put to sleep we find out the doctor doesn't know what he's doing. He is fairly or unfairly been billed as a one and done top level guy and hasn't lived up to it in the eyes of many so far.

JNort
01-28-2017, 08:38 PM
This is just not correct.

Jayson has been one of our best efficiency defenders all year. He's the only player in the past 16 years to have over a 3% block and steals rate in the same season. He makes some stupid gambles on defense, but his length and athleticism as well as his shot blocking ability is vastly understated.

By any metric, Jayson has been far better and more efficient on the defensive end than on the offensive end.

I just want this in the record right now. Don't argue this with your eye test, because if the coaches thought that he was as bad at defense as he has been on offense, there is no way in hell that he would be playing the number of minutes he plays. The numbers support Tatum on the defensive end.
Steals and blocks don't actually mean you are a great defender. It can also mean you gamble a lot on defense. I'd rather have a guy keep in front of his man and contest every shot over a guy who is consistently out of position trying to get steals or blocks.

Dukehky
01-28-2017, 08:40 PM
Steals and blocks don't actually mean you are a great defender. It can also mean you gamble a lot on defense. I'd rather have a guy keep in front of his man and contest every shot over a guy who is consistently out of position trying to get steals or blocks.

But he does all of them. His defensive efficiency is really high in addition to having those rates. That makes for a good defender. He's not Battier, but he's a better defender than everyone else on the team except healthy Amile and Matt when he's playing well.

Indoor66
01-28-2017, 08:47 PM
Tatum was the player I was most excited to watch in this class. When he's going he is impressive and can carry the team. Trouble is he thinks he has it going all the time and forces the issue. It is no coincidence that Duke's comeback happened after Tatum fouled out. I hope the young man sees what happens when the ball moves around on offense and effort is given on defense.

Tatum appears to me to want to be THE alpha dog in a pack of Alphas. I've said before, IMO he needs to accept that he has to defer to experience.

NashvilleDevil
01-28-2017, 08:51 PM
Tatum appears to me to want to be THE alpha dog in a pack of Alphas. I've said before, IMO he needs to accept that he has to defer to experience.

100%. After today everyone should realize this is Luke's team.

Bay Area Duke Fan
01-28-2017, 08:59 PM
Jayson may be a lottery pick this year, but he hasn't played that great so far. There are at least 10 college freshmen playing better this season.

UrinalCake
01-28-2017, 09:21 PM
I'm with JNort, I think he is being used correctly and I think he needs to be at the 3, not the 4. He can take his man off the dribble really well, he just doesn't finish well through contact. I don't think posting up against an opposing 4 is his strength. In those situations he reverts to his fadeaway jumpshot, which looks great on camera but is a low percentage shot. Again, just my opinion from what I've seen of him and I respect the opinions of those who disgree.

I also agree 100% that he's bad in transition. Overall he just doesn't make good decisions with the ball, which I think some fans interpret as selfishness. There's still time for him to develop, but not a LOT of time at least for our purposes as Duke fans. Defensively I think he can be a really good individual defender when he wants to be, but he doesn't bring the same effort every possession. Once his man beats him he tends to give up on the play, and he doesn't play good help/team defense at all.

westwall
01-28-2017, 09:34 PM
I obviously meant did NOT kill them today.


Thanks for the correction. I was puzzled.

MaxAMillion
01-28-2017, 09:39 PM
What evidence is there that Tatum can play in the post? Is he supposed to be able to hold position and get the ball thrown into him with no problem? Tatum has two problems in my estimation. One, he can't finish at the basket. Two, his jumper is hit and miss. Well guess what, that makes for an inconsistent offensive player. Tatum is the kind of player that I believe will continue to improve in all areas as he matures and gets involved in a strength and conditioning program. Unfortunately his main improvement will be in the NBA.

killerleft
01-28-2017, 09:40 PM
Jayson Tatum is a very, very talented freshman. He's learning how to play major college basketball on the fly. Makin' plays, makin' mistakes.

He has less than two months to learn all he can. Let's support him. I think he'll git' 'er done.

For those who want this young phenom benched? I just got new glasses at Costco a couple weeks ago. 'Nuff said.

weezie
01-28-2017, 09:58 PM
^^^^ What killerleft said.

I love Jayson. He's the only legit freshman prospect on the team. He's a big, strong man and yes, I've said that before. Thunderous approach to the basket. Who else ya gonna put in, seriously?
This isn't Daisy Chain 101. They play that kind of ball down the road in Dumphole.

Furniture
01-28-2017, 10:14 PM
I just want this in the record right now. Don't argue this with your eye test, because if the coaches thought that he was as bad at defense as he has been on offense, there is no way in hell that he would be playing the number of minutes he plays. The numbers support Tatum on the defensive end.

I emphatically agree. He must be playing well in practice too or he would not keep on starting.

OldPhiKap
01-28-2017, 10:49 PM
I am sure the coaches want Jayson to attack and shoot. That's K's philosophy, and Jayson would be on the bench if that was not the case.

Jayson missed the early part of the year with an injury, and is trying to battle the learning curve in the teeth of the toughest ACC in a generation.

If we want him to be good in March, he needs to take his lumps now. That's how it works. Or at least, that's the race he was given to run.

I'm behind him 100%.

willywoody
01-28-2017, 10:51 PM
But why does he look like a poor man's Corey Magette? Seriously, he's about half as good at this point.

And as I know I misspelled everything I am a BS grad so there.

killerleft
01-28-2017, 10:56 PM
But why does he look like a poor man's Corey Magette? Seriously, he's about half as good at this point.

And as I know I misspelled everything I am a BS grad so there.

Maybe you can't get the Maggette-Os out of your eyes?:)

duke4ever19
01-28-2017, 11:07 PM
But why does he look like a poor man's Corey Magette? Seriously, he's about half as good at this point.

And as I know I misspelled everything I am a BS grad so there.

You only misspelled Maggette's last name name, however, a couple commas in your last sentence would have helped. :p

On a more serious note, I never thought of Maggette as a comparison. Interesting. I've got some video to watch.

OldPhiKap
01-28-2017, 11:09 PM
But why does he look like a poor man's Corey Magette? Seriously, he's about half as good at this point.

And as I know I misspelled everything I am a BS grad so there.

I'm not even sure what this means.

CoachJ10
01-28-2017, 11:14 PM
I tend to agree that on this team, putting Jayson in the p&r would be a more efficient use of his skills. Isolating him on the 3 point lane does not help with our offensive flow, or put him in the best position to be efficient.

He is not like Brandon Ingram, who was an incredibly efficient offensive player.

We have weapons in Luke and Grayson (and Frank) that can be used with Jayson to really put pressure on teams.

Rich
01-28-2017, 11:20 PM
I am sure the coaches want Jayson to attack and shoot. That's K's philosophy, and Jayson would be on the bench if that was not the case.

Jayson missed the early part of the year with an injury, and is trying to battle the learning curve in the teeth of the toughest ACC in a generation.

If we want him to be good in March, he needs to take his lumps now. That's how it works. Or at least, that's the race he was given to run.

I'm behind him 100%.

It's the curse of DBR...we want players who are benched (because they're not ready to play according to the coaches based on practice) to play so they're ready to play in March and we want players who are playing (because they're ready to play according to the coaches based on practice) to be benched because they're really not ready to play.

brlftz
01-28-2017, 11:33 PM
i'm pretty unhappy about all the judging going on in other threads. i think it's fair to critique his contributions, but i get super irritated when i see people assign motives or judge character. we don't know what is being coached, and we don't know what feedback he's getting from the staff. it could very well be that they are encouraging him to work on scoring in isolation, and he's trying to execute the game plan. against state he made some brilliant moves, and if those very makeable layups had gone down i'm imagining the tone would be different. i saw a guy trying to win. let's not eat our own here.

jv001
01-29-2017, 12:32 AM
I can't get on Jayson for his play in this game. He seemed to defer to Grayson and Luke most of the game. I saw him play hard and get a couple of questionable calls. I may be wrong in this, but I believe Coach K and Coach Capel had a word with not only Jayson but with the whole team about going through Grayson and Luke first. I liked the new offensive sets and had Matt been on, we would have been up double digits and not just 2 points at the end. The thing that Matt, Amile, Jayson, and Harry need to work on his get over the call or no call and get back down court. This is something that should be easy to improve on. Then next learn to communicate better on defense. That takes a little more effort but can be put in to practice next game. GoDuke!

heyman25
01-29-2017, 01:01 AM
I did not see the game. The criticism of Jayson is justified and I think he got the message. That play in the closing seconds against State has to sting still. Jayson I am sure will blow our minds in a breakout game later this season. I have not seen the Gatorade Player of the Year put it together yet in 1 game. When the other teams shut down Luke or Grayson, Jayson can and will be option 3 for scoring. His defense has to improve dramatically. Jefferson and Jones need to scream at him when they are on the court together.If he shores up the defense, the offense will get better.

BD80
01-29-2017, 07:22 AM
It's the curse of DBR...we want players who are benched (because they're not ready to play according to the coaches based on practice) to play so they're ready to play in March and we want players who are playing (because they're ready to play according to the coaches based on practice) to be benched because they're really not ready to play.

Well, yeah ...

And the second string quarterback is always the fan favorite

OldPhiKap
01-29-2017, 07:53 AM
It's the curse of DBR...we want players who are benched (because they're not ready to play according to the coaches based on practice) to play so they're ready to play in March and we want players who are playing (because they're ready to play according to the coaches based on practice) to be benched because they're really not ready to play.

I see Jayson as a rich man's Olek Czyz.

fuse
01-29-2017, 08:10 AM
I wish I could play basketball like Jayson Tatum.

Jayson doesn't play through contact well, and doesn't see the court well.
That does not mean he is not a highly talented, capable and valuable member of the team.

If I may, allow me to compare Jayson and Grant Hill's situation freshman year.
Grant came in as an incredibly talented freshman who bought into the team concept. Grant didn't need to be the man.

I don't see much evidence that Jayson recognizes anyone but himself as "the man" and there is no Laettner on this year's team to put Jayson in his place.
If Jayson can play in the team concept, the team's potential is so much greater.

Indoor66
01-29-2017, 08:15 AM
Jayson Tatum is a very, very talented freshman. He's learning how to play major college basketball on the fly. Makin' plays, makin' mistakes.

He has less than two months to learn all he can. Let's support him. I think he'll git' 'er done.

For those who want this young phenom benched? I just got new glasses at Costco a couple weeks ago. 'Nuff said.

...And I root for Duke to win games, not develop NBA talent. He is under performing. He has talent but the talent is still raw. He does not need to be the center of the offense. He needs to have enough talent to recognize that he has talented teammates. He needs enough talent to learn to pass the ball to open teammates. He needs to sit more and observe more and learn team basketball concepts.

I am sure he is a great kid. I have no doubt he will succeed in the long run but he has, apparently, chosen the short run at Duke and I don't have to be accepting of his less than stellar results....

slower
01-29-2017, 08:42 AM
I have no problem with Tatum on D.

But on offense, he's like Kobe. When he's good, he's like good Kobe, and that's very good.

But when he's bad, he's like bad Kobe, and that's VERY bad.

Hopefully, K and Capel will tell him to play as part of the team or sit him.

CDu
01-29-2017, 08:48 AM
I have no problem with Tatum on D.

But on offense, he's like Kobe. When he's good, he's like good Kobe, and that's very good.

But when he's bad, he's like bad Kobe, and that's VERY bad.

Hopefully, K and Capel will tell him to play as part of the team or sit him.

He took only six shots in this game and very clearly deferred to Allen and Kennard. So I would guess that the message has been sent. As I mentioned earlier, my issues with Tatum's play are in transition defense, where he previously didn't put in enough effort to get back on defense. His half-court defense was fine. He isn't close to the most efficient offensive player right now. But hopefully he is learning.

FadedTackyShirt
01-29-2017, 09:01 AM
Jayson may be a lottery pick this year, but he hasn't played that great so far. There are at least 10 college freshmen playing better this season.

It's the curse of the OAD era. I saw Ingram and Jaylen Brown play in person last season and Dennis Smith, Fultz, Tatum, Giles, and Bolden this season. Ingram and Smith were the only polished players (Fultz had an unusually bad game), but the NBA doesn't care. OAD is bad for both the NCAA and the NBA.

slower
01-29-2017, 09:03 AM
He took only six shots in this game and very clearly deferred to Allen and Kennard.

Pretty sure he would have taken more if not for foul trouble. Not so sure that he "very clearly" deferred to Allen and Kennard.

CDu
01-29-2017, 09:14 AM
Pretty sure he would have taken more if not for foul trouble. Not so sure that he "very clearly" deferred to Allen and Kennard.

He took notably fewer shots per minute than Kennard and Allen. He shot only as frequently as Jackson and Giles. He deferred.

slower
01-29-2017, 09:24 AM
He took notably fewer shots per minute than Kennard and Allen. He shot only as frequently as Jackson and Giles. He deferred.

I'll watch again. Deferring is certainly not in his nature, unless he was instructed to do so. He'll need to get used to that, for the remainder of this season, at least.

TKG
01-29-2017, 09:40 AM
...And I root for Duke to win games, not develop NBA talent. He is under performing. He has talent but the talent is still raw. He does not need to be the center of the offense. He needs to have enough talent to recognize that he has talented teammates. He needs enough talent to learn to pass the ball to open teammates. He needs to sit more and observe more and learn team basketball concepts.

I am sure he is a great kid. I have no doubt he will succeed in the long run but he has, apparently, chosen the short run at Duke and I don't have to be accepting of his less than stellar results...

What Indoor wrote.......

Indoor66
01-29-2017, 09:47 AM
He took notably fewer shots per minute than Kennard and Allen. He shot only as frequently as Jackson and Giles. He deferred.

How do you figure that? Jayson played 21 minutes and took 6 shots = 3.5 shots per minute. Luke played 33 minutes and took 14 shots = 2.36 shots per minute. Grayson played 33 minutes and took 13 shots = 2.54 shots per minute.

Where is the deferral?

budwom
01-29-2017, 09:47 AM
He took notably fewer shots per minute than Kennard and Allen. He shot only as frequently as Jackson and Giles. He deferred.

Yeah, it seems to me that ESPN isn't the only entity that can create a BS narrative about someone. Tatum took all of six shots yesterday, and as someone on the Devil's Den
noted, his defense (by one allegedly advanced statistical measure) was the best on the team. Meanwhile, Matt Jones (whom I love) shot horrendously yesterday, that's the way it goes some time.

Tatum is a freshman who missed a bunch of time and he makes some mistakes. Big deal. I think he's learning and he's trying (as yesterday's deferring indicated, at least to me).

One of our enduring problems is that two of our best offensive players, Allen and Kennard (third and second year players respectively) are NOT good defenders. I doubt it's because of a lack of effort.

The composition of this team is very unusual....I continue to find this a very fascinating season (if exasperating) and look forward to seeing what K can do with these parts which are clearly
talented but don't seem to fit together.

freshmanjs
01-29-2017, 09:49 AM
How do you figure that? Jayson played 21 minutes and took 6 shots = 3.5 shots per minute. Luke played 33 minutes and took 14 shots = 2.36 shots per minute. Grayson played 33 minutes and took 13 shots = 2.54 shots per minute.

Where is the deferral?

You calculated minutes per shot, not shots per minute. The deferral is right there in your numbers.

azzefkram
01-29-2017, 10:40 AM
Jayson is fine. Put a little more effort in transition D and pass a bit more and everything will be right as rain.

CDu
01-29-2017, 10:48 AM
How do you figure that? Jayson played 21 minutes and took 6 shots = 3.5 shots per minute. Luke played 33 minutes and took 14 shots = 2.36 shots per minute. Grayson played 33 minutes and took 13 shots = 2.54 shots per minute.

Where is the deferral?

Your math is exactly backwards. Tatum took 1 shot per 3.5 minutes. Not the other way around. Allen and Kennard took 1 shot per 2.5 minutes. They each shot a good 30% more often than Tatum.

ETA: looks like freshmanjs beat me to it.

Edouble
01-29-2017, 10:57 AM
It's the curse of DBR...we want players who are benched (because they're not ready to play according to the coaches based on practice) to play so they're ready to play in March and we want players who are playing (because they're ready to play according to the coaches based on practice) to be benched because they're really not ready to play.

You must spread some Comments around before commenting on Rich again.

I was about to say something very similar. So many seasons where posters want certain guys to play, even if it means taking a few losses, because these players have the most potential/upside. Complaints about needing PT in actual games to work out the kinks. Then Tatum gets behind a few months due to injury, gets thrown into the fire, and everyone prefers that he gets put on the bench... for Matt Jones, I suppose, who has taken a whole lotta heat himself around these parts.

I've never gotten the feeling that Tatum has not unpacked his bags. I support him getting minutes. He started out of the gates with a bang back in December, but has understandably had some freshman issues.

ricks68
01-29-2017, 11:20 AM
It's the curse of DBR...we want players who are benched (because they're not ready to play according to the coaches based on practice) to play so they're ready to play in March and we want players who are playing (because they're ready to play according to the coaches based on practice) to be benched because they're really not ready to play.

Excellent observation.

ricks

slower
01-29-2017, 12:32 PM
Jayson is fine. Put a little more effort in transition D and pass a bit more and everything will be right as rain.

Uh - yeah. Now let's see if it happens.

Indoor66
01-29-2017, 12:47 PM
Your math is exactly backwards. Tatum took 1 shot per 3.5 minutes. Not the other way around. Allen and Kennard took 1 shot per 2.5 minutes. They each shot a good 30% more often than Tatum.

ETA: looks like freshmanjs beat me to it.

Never was worth a darn at Math.

Hancock 4 Duke
01-29-2017, 12:52 PM
Just can't seem to get on the optimism train with this one...obviously Capel and K know more about Tatum than we do, but he is just so frustrating to watch and I can't help but feel as if he is the center of the "selfish" talk from Luke and the reason for a few of our losses. He seems to play for himself, and not for Duke...however, I need not to delve into that because others on this board who are better with words and analyzing have hashed it out in enough ways.

wsb3
01-29-2017, 01:12 PM
.obviously Capel and K know more about Tatum than we do, but he is just so frustrating to watch and I can't help but feel as if he is the center of the "selfish" talk from Luke.

I agree with both these points. Coach K & Capel know way more & I wonder if he is not the center of the talk. He would be my guess..Yes we need him to make a run in March..I was surprised that he started yesterday. There is a difference between benching someone & burying them at the end of the bench & trying to get their attention..

Who knows what this team does going forward. I am not going to say this was the moment it turned around when I hoped last week in the second half vs Miami was that moment. I sure would like to get on the high side of this 500 mark but we are going to have to beat some really good teams to do it..

If we play with the guts this team did yesterday..when it seemed every thing went Wake's way..That bank shot was the moment I thought we won't make it back...We can be a serious contender at the end..But we can't turn it on & turn it off... We have to bring it...every game...because you know we are going to get everyone's A game.

JNort
01-29-2017, 05:42 PM
It's the curse of DBR...we want players who are benched (because they're not ready to play according to the coaches based on practice) to play so they're ready to play in March and we want players who are playing (because they're ready to play according to the coaches based on practice) to be benched because they're really not ready to play.


Perhaps for most on here. However I want him to continue playing significant minutes I would just prefer him to lose a few of those minutes each game to someone who is playing better in said game. I don't have a set number of what I think he should play, it just depends on how well he is doing and/or how well the others are doing. K is usually much tighter on the leash than this for freshman, not sure why the difference now.

Skydog
01-29-2017, 06:22 PM
Some rather long-winded thoughts about the discussions of Jayson from one of his occasional critics.

(Note: I don't mean to pick on any particular posters with the examples I give below. I don't even pay attention to who posted them - they are just some recent examples that I happen to remember and that fit the points I'm trying to make.)

1. To start I should say that I don't think critiquing a player's playing style is personal. That should go without saying but some have seemed to argue that Jayson's critics should lay off here because he is just a young kid. I would understand that if this were Twitter or Sports Center. But it's a Duke bball discussion board created specifically for discussing the players and the team. Criticism of young players (they are all young) is going to be part of that discussion - it comes with the territory. I don't know whether the players read this board -- I doubt they have either the time or interest to listed to mostly old-fogies pontificate. But whether they do or not - I'm not going to censor myself on a bball discussion board because a player might get his feelings hurt.

2. I appreciate specific counterpoints to any criticism I (or others) may make of Jayson or any other player's play- such responses often provide opportunities for me to learn. Plus they often morph into discussions of related issues which in turn give more insight into the team. In fact this thread started with a question about whether Jaysons struggles on the court might be a function of where and how he is being used on the court which started an interesting discussion of alternative ways to play and use him. Another example was the debate about whether Jayson started to defer more to his teammates in the Wake game, data was brought to bear and a conclusion was reached - if you look at shots/min he actually did dial down his shooting rate.

3. On the other hand there are also overly general responses that are not specific to the criticism being made that I don't see how they help. To me they just come across as defensive - like I'm saying he's a bad guy and so someone has to stand up for him. I guess that's a good trait but not so sure if it applies here. As an example some (many) of us have pointed out that we think "Jayson plays too selfishly and we think he should look to work with his teammates more." Some have responded to the actual issue - kudos to them. But others have argued that he's just a freshman and so we shouldn't be so hard on him. Others point out that he isn't the first player to struggle his first year. How is that helpful? It's not like I or others who have brought up this point are unaware he is a freshman or don't realize the transition from HS to college is very difficult. Having watched Duke and the ACC for 35+ years I am acutely aware of that.

I think I understand the motivation behind the "Leave him alone, he's just a freshman" argument - its that some think we are piling on too much. But if that is the case then I think that argument should be made directly. Then we could discuss that.

But the "he's a freshman, all freshmen make mistakes" defense doesn't address the specific criticisms being made - which wasn't "he should be further along" but instead that he is a ball stopper who often decides early in the play that he is going to do it all himself and take the ball to the hoop come hell or high water. This is not something that all - or even most - freshmen do. Austin Rivers did this and Jayson does this and it seem both may end up being polarizing players. Both were very high usage players with low offensive efficiencies, and thats a combination that significantly hurts the team's functioning imo. Now if someone disagrees or has specific counterpoints that's good discussion material. Some have argued that maybe he's been told by the coaches to play this way - that in itself is an interesting discussion because it brings up a lot of other questions. But just pointing out that he's young and inexperience so we should lay off him doesn't make sense to me.

4. Another non-helpful response is the old "defending the player by patronizing the critic" approach. It's easy to dismiss someone's point of view with comments like "fans always over-react when the team has recently lost" or "fans always think the player on the bench is better." While both of those responses have a lot truth behind them it isn't helpful to assume this is what's going on just because you disagree with or just don't like what's being said. Those type of responses are basically saying "I don't believe that you are really observing what you say you are. Instead I'll go with alternate explanation - you are just another deluded, shallow-thinking fan." One problem with these condescending responses is that they are "one size fits all" arguments that can be thrown out against any player/coach criticism you don't want to hear. They really have no inherent information value themselves. A second problem is they are an easy way to avoid doing the work of coming up with any contrary evidence or any real counter argument. Finally they often lead to an "all heat, no light" pissing match.

I'm going to stray a bit from bball here : Dismissing the critic out of hand rather than addressing what he has to say has unfortunately become the rule rather than the exception in the tribalism that passes for political discourse these days. All you have to do in the face of a critique of your favored candidate or party or policy is just make blind assumptions about the critic that will invalidate his or her criticism. "Who cares what he says - he's just a naive, bleeding heart liberal. Of course she would say that - she's just another one who wants freebies from the government." "Why should I read this - its just a bunch of dumb, uneducated tea-partiers spouting nonsense as they are being led around like sheep. " All of these are lazy ways to dismiss the source - which is a lot easier than listening to and thinking about something you don't want to hear and think about. The end result is that statements are parsed only in terms of "you for us or you agin' us?" rather than listening to the content.

Ok all that is far from basketball but the same principles apply on this board, albeit in a milder form. I just wish that posters who see my criticisms of Jayson's play don't automatically assume its because I don't like him, or that I don't realize he is a freshman or that I'm just a naive "grass is always greener" type of fan. At least briefly entertain the possibility that the specific criticisms that many have made are valid. And if after that you still don't agree then fine - throw out specific counter evidence or specific counter arguments.

5. Final question - Why does Jayson keep playing defense with his hands? The reach in fouls are a common mistake - its so tempting to go for the steal. But he also keeps swiping his arms down on defense. He's in position in front of the basket, arms straight up, then last second he swipes down.) Those handsy moves are almost always going to get called and seldom work He needs to at least remove the swipe down from his repertoire if he wants to stay on the floor.

Indoor66
01-29-2017, 07:05 PM
What is your point in that tome?

sagegrouse
01-29-2017, 07:12 PM
Some rather long-winded thoughts about the discussions of Jayson from one of his occasional critics.


1. To start I should say that I don't think critiquing a player's playing style is personal.

2. I appreciate specific counterpoints to any criticism I (or others) may make of Jayson or any other player's play- such responses often provide opportunities for me to learn.

3. On the other hand there are also overly general responses that are not specific to the criticism being made that I don't see how they help.

I think I understand the motivation behind the "Leave him alone, he's just a freshman" argument - its that some think we are piling on too much.

But the "he's a freshman, all freshmen make mistakes" defense doesn't address the specific criticisms being made - which wasn't "he should be further along" but instead that he is a ball stopper who often decides early in the play that he is going to do it all himself and take the ball to the hoop come hell or high water. T

4. Another non-helpful response is the old "defending the player by patronizing the critic" approach.

I'm going to stray a bit from bball here : Dismissing the critic out of hand rather than addressing what he has to say has unfortunately become the rule rather than the exception in the tribalism that passes for political discourse these days.

Ok all that is far from basketball but the same principles apply on this board, albeit in a milder form.

5. Final question - Why does Jayson keep playing defense with his hands?
Along the lines of Indoor66's comment, I have stripped the initial sentence, which is often the "theme" sentence, out of each of your paragraphs. I really don't understand your points, until we get to the last para. If that's the essence, you could have handled it in a lot fewer words.

hudlow
01-29-2017, 07:40 PM
He's just a kid...and he's our kid.

Go Duke!

miramar
01-29-2017, 07:51 PM
I will also add one more observation- I haven't seen any player been called for more mystery fouls than Jayson. I mean it's every game he gets one or two that neither he nor I can understand. Maybe they are obvious on tape but for whatever reason Jayson seems to get a tougher deal from the refs on both ends of the court than any other Duke player.

I have a question on the fifth foul. While the two announcers were yammering on and on about how he hit the guy as he swung his elbows, I watched the replay over and over and what he really did was accidentally hit the defender with the ball as he moved his hands from left to right. While Tatum really smacked the guy unintentionally with a Spalding to the kisser, the elbows were down and made no contact at all.

Is it really a foul to hit someone with the basketball like that? I don't recall seeing that before.

JNort
01-29-2017, 07:51 PM
What is your point in that tome?


Along the lines of Indoor66's comment, I have stripped the initial sentence, which is often the "theme" sentence, out of each of your paragraphs. I really don't understand your points, until we get to the last para. If that's the essence, you could have handled it in a lot fewer words.
I thought it was well said and 100% spot on.

MChambers
01-29-2017, 07:59 PM
I have a question on the fifth foul. While the two announcers were yammering on and on about how he hit the guy as he swung his elbows, I watched the replay over and over and what he really did was accidentally hit the defender with the ball as he moved his hands from left to right. While Tatum really smacked the guy unintentionally with a Spalding to the kisser, the elbows were down and made no contact at all.

Is it really a foul to hit someone with the basketball like that? I don't recall seeing that before.

I think it could be, but it certainly wasn't called a foul when Derek Williams did it to Kyle Singler in 2011. Not that I'm still bitter about that loss.

devilsince1977
01-29-2017, 08:29 PM
I think it could be, but it certainly wasn't called a foul when Derek Williams did it to Kyle Singler in 2011. Not that I'm still bitter about that loss.

I read the information at the beginning of the season on rule changes and points of emphasis for this season. I believe that in the strictest interpretation of the rules, it could have been considered a foul. If the refs felt that the ball was below Jayson's shoulders; then he is not allowed to use it to create space. The ball has to be below the waist or above the chest when you "swing it through". If it is not, and there is contact with the defensive player in his "vertical space"; whether is it with an elbow or the ball: it is supposed to be a foul on the offensive player. So, if you ignore the fact that Jayson was being hacked prior to the swing of the ball. It was a foul on Jayson. And we all know the refs ignored most of Wake's fouls all night.

I don't agree with this rule change and I might not be accurate on the details, but I am pretty sure that it was supposed to be called a foul on Jayson. It was put in to reduce head injuries and to keep players from using the ball to push off like the NBA guy did in the playoffs last year. I think it was an OKC player on an in bounds play late in the game. I think it was Deion Waiters against the Spurs.

It would not have been a foul in 2011.

Skydog
01-29-2017, 08:39 PM
...you could have handled it in a lot fewer words.

Can't argue with that. I missed the brevity memo - but at least I warned everyone it was long-winded, right? :)

westwall
01-29-2017, 09:11 PM
Can't argue with that. I missed the brevity memo - but at least I warned everyone it was long-winded, right? :)


Yes, you did warn us but, sorry, I still fell asleep

killerleft
01-29-2017, 09:32 PM
...And I root for Duke to win games, not develop NBA talent. He is under performing. He has talent but the talent is still raw. He does not need to be the center of the offense. He needs to have enough talent to recognize that he has talented teammates. He needs enough talent to learn to pass the ball to open teammates. He needs to sit more and observe more and learn team basketball concepts.

I am sure he is a great kid. I have no doubt he will succeed in the long run but he has, apparently, chosen the short run at Duke and I don't have to be accepting of his less than stellar results...

Perhaps he can be assimilated. I'm assuming that the coaches believe his race will be short.

Skydog
01-29-2017, 09:33 PM
Yes, you did warn us but, sorry, I still fell asleep

You were supposed to save it for later in the evening, when you needed it.

Neals384
01-29-2017, 11:26 PM
Tatum did kill the team today. His plus/minus was -1 in 21 minutes. He has certainly had rough moments this year, but our struggles today came elsewhere.

Let me insert a brief commercial here. If you are using scacchoops for +/- data, please be advised they are frequently wrong. Tatum was +4 yesterday. I'd be happy to detail this if you like, but save yourself the trouble and always go the +/- thread at the top of this forum.

Neals384
01-29-2017, 11:59 PM
Let me insert a brief commercial here. If you are using scacchoops for +/- data, please be advised they are frequently wrong. Tatum was +4 yesterday. I'd be happy to detail this if you like, but save yourself the trouble and always go the +/- thread at the top of this forum.

Details (whether you want them or not):

Here are Tatum's shifts vs. Wake:
1) Tatum started, and went to the bench with Duke leading 12-10. +2
2) Enters at 12:55, Duke leading 14-12. Back to the bench at 10:11. Duke trails 19-18 after two free throws by Crawford, -3
(Note, as always, subs happen after the first of two free throw, but Tatum is charged with both points since he was in the game when the foul occurred.)
3) Back in at 5:01. Duke trail 31-25 after two more Crawford free throws. Back to the bench at 3:45, Duke trailing 34-28. 0
4) Tatum starts 2nd half, Duke trailing by 10, 42-32. Tatum to bench with his 4th foul at 13:59, Duke trailing 52-47 after Woods sinks 1 of 2 free throws, +5.
5) Reenters at 12:16 (right after the Allen T). Duke trails 59-53 after 2 more Crawford free throw. He gets his 5th foul at 6:58. Duke trails 71-65 0

Sum it up: +2 -3 +0 +5 +0 = +4
Or, Duke outscored Wake 46 - 42 with Tatum on the court.

Play - by - play and substitutions taken from goduke.com

(If someone from scacchoops would like to detail how they arrived at -1, have at it!)

A much easier one to fact check is Jones. He had only one rest all game, from 8:08 to 6:43 of the first half. Trailing by 2 when he went out, trailing by 2 when he came back in. So Matt gets the game result, +2. Yet somehow scacc gives him a +4.

CDu
01-30-2017, 07:23 AM
(If someone from scacchoops A much easier one to fact check is Jones. He had only one rest all game, from 8:08 to 6:43 of the first half. Trailing by 2 when he went out, trailing by 2 when he came back in. So Matt gets the game result, +2. Yet somehow scacc gives him a +4.

I am not with SCACCHoops, but I can answer that question easily. They appear to have credited Jones with the two free throws by Jackson at 6:43. So my suspicion is that the difference is mainly (if not entirely) in methodology in how they handle free throws with subs.

budwom
01-30-2017, 08:38 AM
Details (whether you want them or not):

Here are Tatum's shifts vs. Wake:
1) Tatum started, and went to the bench with Duke leading 12-10. +2
2) Enters at 12:55, Duke leading 14-12. Back to the bench at 10:11. Duke trails 19-18 after two free throws by Crawford, -3
(Note, as always, subs happen after the first of two free throw, but Tatum is charged with both points since he was in the game when the foul occurred.)
3) Back in at 5:01. Duke trail 31-25 after two more Crawford free throws. Back to the bench at 3:45, Duke trailing 34-28. 0
4) Tatum starts 2nd half, Duke trailing by 10, 42-32. Tatum to bench with his 4th foul at 13:59, Duke trailing 52-47 after Woods sinks 1 of 2 free throws, +5.
5) Reenters at 12:16 (right after the Allen T). Duke trails 59-53 after 2 more Crawford free throw. He gets his 5th foul at 6:58. Duke trails 71-65 0

Sum it up: +2 -3 +0 +5 +0 = +4
Or, Duke outscored Wake 46 - 42 with Tatum on the court.

Play - by - play and substitutions taken from goduke.com

(If someone from scacchoops would like to detail how they arrived at -1, have at it!)

A much easier one to fact check is Jones. He had only one rest all game, from 8:08 to 6:43 of the first half. Trailing by 2 when he went out, trailing by 2 when he came back in. So Matt gets the game result, +2. Yet somehow scacc gives him a +4.

Please do not interrupt the Jayson Tatum is Snidely Whiplash narrative with mere facts! :cool:

flyingdutchdevil
01-30-2017, 08:54 AM
I like Jayson. Love his Kobe-esque game. My thoughts on the subject:

1) Jayson likes to shoot. A lot. He's averaging 12.2 shots a game. Luke is averaging 12.5. Grayson is averaging 11.2. There is no way Tatum should be averaging more shots than Grayson and only 0.3 less shots than Luke. Jayson is also shooting less than 30% from deep and 43% from the field.

2) I see Jayson as a reverse-Winslow when it comes to offense: excellent FT shooter, mediocre 3pt shooter, okay mid-range shooter. The good news for Jayson is that NBA 3pt shooting is more correlated with college FT shooting than college 3pt shooting (sidenote: this correlation explains why Winslow is gawd awful at shooting in the NBA).

3) When Jayson is on the move and has the ball, he's very difficult to stop. This, IMO, is where Jayson is at his best. During fast breaks, during cuts, during drives when he has his man beat. Yes, he has a few issues finishing at the rim. Yes, he gets blocked a decent amount. But I love Jayson when he's in this position.

4) When Jayson is around the 3pt line with the ball in his hands, I cringe. One of three things will happen. He'll drive into the lane and either shoot and turn in over (50%). He'll shoot a 3pt shot or a midrange with low success (30%). He'll pass it out on the perimeter to a teammate with solid success (20%). Yes, these percentages are estimates. But my point still holds: Jayson needs to pass to teammates on the perimeter more.

5) Jayson is a terrible passer. He's averaging 1.9 assists vs 2.7 TOs. Very bad ratio. IMO, he forces way too many passes and, like his shots, his passes are extremely difficult. His best passes come from driving and finding an open man UNDER the basket. When there is an open man on the wing, the defense reads Tatum perfectly and often steals the ball. I'd love to see Jayson drive more with Giles or Jefferson under the rim.

6) Jayson's defense is okay. His rebounding is really solid. His ability to do one-on-one D is not bad. But in two areas Jayson gets an F: transition D (or lack thereof) and help defense. Jayson doesn't rotate well. He doesn't communicate. And he doesn't understand how defense is played as a unit.

IMO, if Jayson can reduce his bad shots (pretty easy to accomplish), stop forcing bad passes (pretty easy to accomplish), get back on transition D (pretty easy to accomplish), and get better at team defense (very difficult to accomplish), then Jayson becomes the player we've always thought he could be.

Indoor66
01-30-2017, 08:57 AM
/- is hardly a definitive metric. There 5 players at any one time. Anyone's wild shot can change the +/_ "score" in any one short perod. It proves nothing - either for or against player efficiency.

flyingdutchdevil
01-30-2017, 09:02 AM
/- is hardly a definitive metric. There 5 players at any one time. Anyone's wild shot can change the +/_ "score" in any one short perod. It proves nothing - either for or against player efficiency.

One a game-by-game basis, I'll agree. But over time, it proves a ton. Shane Battier made millions because of this metric.

CDu
01-30-2017, 10:08 AM
/- is hardly a definitive metric. There 5 players at any one time. Anyone's wild shot can change the +/_ "score" in any one short perod. It proves nothing - either for or against player efficiency.

I agree with you about +/-. However, in the context of discussing whether or not Tatum was the problem in that game, having a +4 is pretty compelling evidence that he wasn't. That's not to say he was the cause of the +4. Just that his presence on the floor didn't ultimately hurt us.

Indoor66
01-30-2017, 10:09 AM
One a game-by-game basis, I'll agree. But over time, it proves a ton. Shane Battier made millions because of this metric.

I don't disagree with you here. My point is the prior post's defense of Tatum based on that metric over minutes of a full game. Bringing in Battier is like bringing an M1A1 to a knife fight.

CDu
01-30-2017, 10:10 AM
One a game-by-game basis, I'll agree. But over time, it proves a ton. Shane Battier made millions because of this metric.

Actually, this is also not entirely true. At least not over a sample size of 30-40 games, and probably not for a sample size even a good bit larger. Pomeroy wrote an article on this very topic. Just way too many variables for it to show whether or not a player played well.

What it can do, though, is show you whether or not the team suffered (or succeeded) with a player on the court. But it can't really capture that player's contribution to the team's success or failure during that time.

Matches
01-30-2017, 10:23 AM
What it can do, though, is show you whether or not the team suffered (or succeeded) with a player on the court. But it can't really capture that player's contribution to the team's success or failure during that time.

IMO the shorter college game can cause some misleading results as well. Matt Jones was +2 Saturday - because he played essentially the whole game and we won by 2. That tells us nothing about whether Jones was a net positive or a net negative for us.

superdave
01-30-2017, 10:23 AM
4) When Jayson is around the 3pt line with the ball in his hands, I cringe. One of three things will happen. He'll drive into the lane and either shoot and turn in over (50%). He'll shoot a 3pt shot or a midrange with low success (30%). He'll pass it out on the perimeter to a teammate with solid success (20%). Yes, these percentages are estimates. But my point still holds: Jayson needs to pass to teammates on the perimeter more.


I agree with this. Jayson is less effective a long way from the basket. He often takes one too many dribbles or puts his head down and gets in trouble. He would be much better off catching on the move, with one dribble or less to shoot.

Duke has regressed into a lot of one on one play this season and it makes Tatum less efficient. If we ran a few more set plays, I think he'd a be a lot more efficient. He should gets looks curing around the elbows and flashing in the past after a baseline cut. The offense just has not been playing to his strengths very well lately.

SupaDave
01-30-2017, 01:33 PM
IMO the shorter college game can cause some misleading results as well. Matt Jones was +2 Saturday - because he played essentially the whole game and we won by 2. That tells us nothing about whether Jones was a net positive or a net negative for us.

1 for 8 from the three point line... 1-10 from the field. But he had six assists. Crazy stat line.

For all the talk about Tatum - who needs to learn what a swing pass is - if Matt Jones had a more dependable shot I truly think we would be in a different place. He gets left wide open on a pretty regular basis - and also shoots sometimes when he shouldn't.

Matt Jones. Second most minutes on the team, 35 of 103 3-pointers made, and only 12 free throw attempts all year. He's 3rd on the team in assists and has an insane amount of steals however.

A quick look at the season stats also indicate that Luke should never ever be on the bench.

SupaDave
01-30-2017, 01:36 PM
I agree with this. Jayson is less effective a long way from the basket. He often takes one too many dribbles or puts his head down and gets in trouble. He would be much better off catching on the move, with one dribble or less to shoot.

Duke has regressed into a lot of one on one play this season and it makes Tatum less efficient. If we ran a few more set plays, I think he'd a be a lot more efficient. He should gets looks curing around the elbows and flashing in the past after a baseline cut. The offense just has not been playing to his strengths very well lately.

I wish someone would tell him. If I see another shot where he has picked up his dribble and still fires up a long two or three with a defender in his face I'm gonna lose it.

And I think he should only spell Luke or Matt Jones - 10-15 mins a game tops. Then we he comes in the game he could be used a little like Redick was used back in the day - b/c he aint passing it and we don't need Luke standing on the perimeter Tatum watching.

elvis14
01-30-2017, 02:59 PM
Interesting thread that went pretty much where I thought it would. I really like Jayson and see a ton of potential in his game (no s**t Captain Obvious). I think it's this huge potential that has us looking at Jayson with a more critical lens than we do other players. And perhaps we are more critical of him because he gets a lot of playing time and takes a lot of shots so we expect a lot. It's probably both. I don't consider myself overly critical of Jayson but I do think he could make a couple of small adjustments which would make him a more efficient and more effective player:


Better shot selection.

A long 2 point shot is just about the worst shot in basketball. Avoid those.
A well contested shot isn't a great shot either


Dish a little more off your drives

Jasyon drives well, doesn't always finish with contact. I'd like to see him dish to shooters or cutters a bit more when the defense roatates/collapses on him


Keep the ball moving on offense. If it's there, attack, if not move it, it'll come back if a good shot isn't found
Always go hard to get back on defense (he usually does)
And I think the whole team is working on team/help/p+r defense


Those are really just adjustments and it's really just a handful of plays a game. I'm assuming that the coaching staff sees what we see (and more) and is working with him on all of this. Again, I don't think people would be frustrated with him if we didn't believe that he has the ability to do more.

Neals384
01-30-2017, 07:01 PM
I am not with SCACCHoops, but I can answer that question easily. They appear to have credited Jones with the two free throws by Jackson at 6:43. So my suspicion is that the difference is mainly (if not entirely) in methodology in how they handle free throws with subs.

I think a more likely methodology (not that I agree), is to charge/credit the player standing on blocks when the free throw is attempted. Thus Jones would not be charged with Ariens' 2nd free throw at 8:08 and would get credit for the first of Jackson's free throws at 6:43, gaining him +2 compared to my methodology.

This difference in methodology can make a significant difference over the course of a game. Vs. Wake, Tatum is either +4 or -1 depending on which method is used. Let's look at just one shift: the lineup Tatum Jones Kennard Jackson Vrankovich played from 12:16 to 7:42 of the second half.

At 12:16, you have Allen's Technical foul, and Tatum replaces Allen to create this lineup. The score before the free throws was 57-53 Wake, and after Crawford sank 2, 59-53 Wake.

At 7:42, with the score 68-62 Wake, Kennard was fouled by Wilbekin while shooting a 3, then the media TO, then Jefferson replaces Vrank and Kennard cans all 3 free throws. 68-65 Wake.

My method is to not charge the Tatum - Vrank lineup with either of Crawford's free throws (since Tatum was on the bench when the foul occurred and the free throws were earned). But I do credit the lineup with the 3 Kennard free throws (since Vrank was in the game when the free throws were earned).
My delta is 59-53 start, 68-65 end, +3 for Duke. (I have Tatum at +1 for the rest of the game.)

It appears that scacchoops gives credit to the player physically in the game at the time the free throws were attempted. In this case, charge one of Crawford's two free throws to the Vrank - Tatum lineup (even though Tatum was on the bench when the foul occurred). And then don't credit the Tatum-Vrank lineup with any of Kennards free throws, since Vrankovich was not in the lineup coming out of the TO. Scored that way, you have 58 - 53 start and 68 - 62 finish, -1 for Duke.

One final note: scacchoops has an incorrect total + for the game:



Player
+/-


Luke Kennard (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_player_page.asp?reporttype=Details&total=yes&hleague=&howner=all&hplayer=958&pp=yes)
3


Grayson Allen (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_player_page.asp?reporttype=Details&total=yes&hleague=&howner=all&hplayer=860&pp=yes)
9


Frank Jackson (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_player_page.asp?reporttype=Details&total=yes&hleague=&howner=all&hplayer=1055&pp=yes)
5


Jayson Tatum (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_player_page.asp?reporttype=Details&total=yes&hleague=&howner=all&hplayer=1052&pp=yes)
-1


Harry Giles (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_player_page.asp?reporttype=Details&total=yes&hleague=&howner=all&hplayer=1053&pp=yes)
15


Amile Jefferson (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_player_page.asp?reporttype=Details&total=yes&hleague=&howner=all&hplayer=680&pp=yes)
-12


Matt Jones (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_player_page.asp?reporttype=Details&total=yes&hleague=&howner=all&hplayer=753&pp=yes)
4


Antonio Vrankovic (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_player_page.asp?reporttype=Details&total=yes&hleague=&howner=all&hplayer=961&pp=yes)
-2


Marques Bolden (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_player_page.asp?reporttype=Details&total=yes&hleague=&howner=all&hplayer=1056&pp=yes)
-3


Jack White (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_player_page.asp?reporttype=Details&total=yes&hleague=&howner=all&hplayer=1057&pp=yes)
-3



15


DIVIDE BY 5
3



Adds up to 15, divided by 5 gives you +3.

A bit of a detailed explanation, but I think you can see why I don't use numbers from scacchoops.

dukefan_828
01-30-2017, 07:29 PM
not a complete jayson hater but as dan who i've actually been proud of for actually siding on duke saga a bit him bringing up the ball spells for complete disaster! Want him to pick up 2 quickies so he can watch how the offense runs w/o him! AJ looks healthy!! Cant believe that one rolled out, lets see HJ get bigger minutes. Want bolden or Vrank to get a 5 min stretch..

SupaDave
01-30-2017, 08:04 PM
not a complete jayson hater but as dan who i've actually been proud of for actually siding on duke saga a bit him bringing up the ball spells for complete disaster! Want him to pick up 2 quickies so he can watch how the offense runs w/o him! AJ looks healthy!! Cant believe that one rolled out, lets see HJ get bigger minutes. Want bolden or Vrank to get a 5 min stretch..

Here is the chat link...

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/misc.php?do=cchatbox

fuse
01-30-2017, 09:15 PM
Tatum's best game as a Blue Devil.
Love to see more games the way he played against Notre Dame.

devilsince1977
01-30-2017, 09:19 PM
Thanks Jayson!!!!!

DukieInBrasil
01-30-2017, 09:35 PM
maybe watching how his teammates played and won down the stretch made an impact on Jayson, b/c he put up an excellent stat line vs. ND. 14 rebounds, man, that's nice. I am kinda surprised that Jayson doesn't take more FTs given his style of play. He's a great FT shooter, so if he could use his body position better or use more shot fakes or change of pace to draw fouls more often, he would become that much more effective.
I've been pretty low on Jayson lately, but vs ND he played very well.

-jk
01-30-2017, 09:41 PM
Lots of love to Jayson! He played thoughtfully!

-jk

TKG
01-30-2017, 09:53 PM
Lots of love to Jayson! He played thoughtfully!

-jk

Agree with you, jk and I was one of the folks riding JT pretty hard. Hope he builds off this game and comes to understand that he and each of his teammates have a role to play for us to be successful. Perhaps it is part of the growth process, so it will be interesting to see if this growth continues or if the ND game was an aberration.

devildeac
01-30-2017, 10:41 PM
Whole Lotta Love. Bet that goes over like a...


...never mind

;)

OldPhiKap
01-30-2017, 10:43 PM
Whole Lotta Love. Bet that goes over like a...


...never mind

;)

My Sporkz message to you was supposed to say "Zep Sporkz," not whatever autocorrect changed it to (which I noticed as hitting send)).

stevoflurane
01-30-2017, 10:46 PM
Tatum was awesome tonight.

Is it me or was every foul of his garbage? 2 of them were offensive fouls that were absolutely terrible calls (not that the refs were great tonight).

devildeac
01-30-2017, 10:49 PM
My Sporkz message to you was supposed to say "Zep Sporkz," not whatever autocorrect changed it to (which I noticed as hitting send)).

Well, I'm gonna send you back to schoolin',

;)

Thanks!

OldPhiKap
01-30-2017, 10:52 PM
Well, I'm gonna send you back to schoolin',

;)

Thanks!

{20 minute drum solo back at you}

elvis14
01-30-2017, 11:01 PM
Looks like Tatum read my post on this thread before the game. You guys let me know if you need me to pass anything else along to the team. :-)

ricks68
01-30-2017, 11:10 PM
Please do not interrupt the Jayson Tatum is Snidely Whiplash narrative with mere facts! :cool:

Hmmmmmmmm.... Would you consider Luke as Dudley Do-Right, then?:p

ricks

ricks68
01-30-2017, 11:20 PM
Lots of love to Jayson! He played thoughtfully!

-jk

Yes, as fuse also said, his best game (after the first two predicted turnovers by me right before they happened. I just dread it when he takes the ball down the court.) While he still had some poor shot selections, they are becoming less and less. Much, much more patience and much, much better effort. He is definitely catching on. Good coaching by the staff looks like it is finally paying off. Go Jayson!:)

ricks

Indoor66
01-31-2017, 07:14 AM
Jayson, where have you been? Tonight he played within himself and let the game come to him. For me, that was his first step to becoming a quality Duke level ball player. I hope he can keep it up. Rarely did he move out of the flow of the game. He passed and he defended - not always well - but always with purpose. I'm glad he seems to be "getting" it .

WillJ
01-31-2017, 07:45 AM
Tatum was awesome tonight.

Is it me or was every foul of his garbage? 2 of them were offensive fouls that were absolutely terrible calls (not that the refs were great tonight).

It's not you.

DukieInBrasil
01-31-2017, 08:15 AM
watching the game on replay, i noticed that Tatum really did a much better job of keeping the ball moving when receiving a pass or getting the ball going to the rim. He took a couple of crappy fade-aways but in general played a very smart game. His passing remains suspect though. He just doesn't have a good sense of the right moment to pass or have a sense that the other team wants to steal the ball. Good job rebounding too.

wsb3
01-31-2017, 10:11 AM
Great game by Tatum tonight..Dan Dakich was on point talking about the offense running first through Luke & Grayson..I hope this is a great sign going forward..Things sure look a lot better than they did a week ago.

Article about Tatum's role..

http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/117433/duke-shows-it-can-thrive-with-jayson-tatum-accepting-new-role

Dukehky
01-31-2017, 10:53 AM
I'm just gonna say that Tatum gives that same kind of defensive and rebounding effort nearly every night. I know he got more boards, but he always goes hard after those things. This is not his first good game in a while, his defense and rebounding have been very, very good for a while now. This IS his first efficient offensive performance, and if he can figure out how to make that consistent, people need to look out.

Big ups to Dakich last night for being ESPN's resident contrarian. For once his contrarianism was pro-Duke!!!

CDu
01-31-2017, 10:59 AM
I'm just gonna say that Tatum gives that same kind of defensive and rebounding effort nearly every night. I know he got more boards, but he always goes hard after those things. This is not his first good game in a while, his defense and rebounding have been very, very good for a while now. This IS his first efficient offensive performance, and if he can figure out how to make that consistent, people need to look out.

Big ups to Dakich last night for being ESPN's resident contrarian. For once his contrarianism was pro-Duke!!!

With the exception of transition defense, I agree with you. But Tatum had previously been atrocious (or nonexistent) in transition defense.

Kedsy
01-31-2017, 01:33 PM
This IS his first efficient offensive performance...

This statement is patently untrue. The Notre Dame game was not only NOT his first efficient offensive performance, it's only his third-most efficient performance of the season:



Game eFG% TS%
BC 0.7222 0.8000
Florida 0.6364 0.7432
ND 0.5714 0.6159
Miami 0.5000 0.5907
Ga Tech 0.5667 0.5784
UNLV 0.5000 0.5439
Fla St 0.5000 0.5419
NCSU 0.5357 0.5351
Va Tech 0.5000 0.5341
Tenn St 0.4545 0.5234
Wake 0.4167 0.5063


Jayson has had a true shooting percentage above 50% in 11 of his 14 games, and an effective field goal percentage of 50% or better in 9 of 14 games. At the very least, the top 5 games in the table above should be considered "efficient offensive performances," and the next four or five, while not super-efficient, shouldn't be considered especially inefficient, either.

I didn't take turnovers into account in determining efficiency, but since he had 2 assists against 5 turnovers at Notre Dame, I don't think that went into your analysis, either.

In any event, the Notre Dame game was not Jayson's first efficient offensive performance, but at least his fifth.

Turk
02-04-2017, 10:15 PM
Time for a bit more love for Jayson Tatum....

Remarkable turnaround from that trainwreck of the Wake game....

He had a great game against ND, and I thought he played another solid game against Pitt today - chipped in a couple big 3's early in the second half; finished with 12 and 6, and nothing really forced or looking like hero ball. Let's hope he can keep playing that way, being a nice 3rd option behind Luke and / or Grayson. Pick your poison!!

UrinalCake
02-04-2017, 10:52 PM
If anything, you might say he was TOO passive today, as he didn't look to attack nearly as much as he did against ND. But it's great to see him playing within the flow of the offense. I really thought that our best option when facing the 2-3 zone would have been putting Tatum at the free throw line and letting him shoot the other jumper, attack the rim, or kick out to another shooter. We did that with Rodney Hood fairly effectively three years ago. But we didn't really do this very much against Pitt, opting instead to use the drive-and-kick to find open threes.