K holds meeting, lays the smack down

[Billy Dat]

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18560249/duke-blue-devils-coach-mike-krzyzewski-bans-players-locker-room-forbids-wearing-school-apparel

My oh my, this year is one for the books

[jwillfan]

Been pretty clear that K has been missed and that this team collectively needs it's butt kicked. Good move, if true. I have heard about the locker-room ban before but can't remember when it was. Any of the DBR historians want to weigh in?

[Devils Librarian]

What I would give to know what was said and who said it in the players-only meeting.

[Bob Green]

Any of the DBR historians want to weigh in?

I'm not a DBR historian but after a road whipping at Clemson in 2008 or 2009 if I recall correctly.

Edit: 2/4/09 Clemson 74, Duke 47

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/seasons/schedule.php?season=2008-09

[NYBri]

"He needs to do more than just take away their jerseys," added another source close to the program. "There are bigger issues that need to be addressed."

Interesting quote.

[hudlow]

I'm looking forward to Saturday's game.

[CDu]

Cory Alexander mentioned in the pre-conference season that it would be difficult to mesh the egos once the superfrosh returned. He was bashed for it. It sounds like he might have been on to something, at least a little.

Hopefully the NC State loss, the players-only meeting, and Coach K's punishments have gotten the team back on the right track.

[rsvman]

Far be it from me to be critical of the most successful basketball coach ever, but this particular story has, at best, bad optics, IMO. It just makes us look more spoiled and entitled, if anything.

I'm not a real believer that negative reinforcement is a great motivator in general. I'm more of a believer that people usually respond to positive reinforcement.

I can see this tactic working, and it apparently has in the past; but I could also see it backfiring in a big way, depending on a player's mindset.

Just my $0.02, and probably not worth that much.

[Indoor66]

Far be it from me to be critical of the most successful basketball coach ever, but this particular story has, at best, bad optics, IMO. It just makes us look more spoiled and entitled, if anything.

I'm not a real believer that negative reinforcement is a great motivator in general. I'm more of a believer that people usually respond to positive reinforcement.

I can see this tactic working, and it apparently has in the past; but I could also see it backfiring in a big way, depending on a player's mindset.

Just my $0.02, and probably not worth that much.

I do not believe that K is into optics. He want results and good results are the result of effort and concentration. I like that he cracked the whip and that it has become public. Maybe some entitlement, if it exists, will be diminished.

[Troublemaker]

Far be it from me to be critical of the most successful basketball coach ever, but this particular story has, at best, bad optics, IMO. It just makes us look more spoiled and entitled, if anything.

I'm not a real believer that negative reinforcement is a great motivator in general. I'm more of a believer that people usually respond to positive reinforcement.

I can see this tactic working, and it apparently has in the past; but I could also see it backfiring in a big way, depending on a player's mindset.

Just my $0.02, and probably not worth that much.

I believe they use both and have a good sense, based on decades of experience, of when to use each.

I'm pretty tired of the lack of hustle in transition D, for example. That most definitely does not conform to the "standards of Duke basketball."

[weezie]

Well I guess we now have a pretty good idea what K was saying to himself during Monday night's game. And to Mickey.
That must have been a fun ride back to campus after the summons... yikes.
Rise Up Devils!

[Devils Librarian]

If I had to guess what at least one of the bullet points was in the players-only meeting, it would be:

"If you miss a layup please don't compound the problem by making the rest of us play 4 on 5 defense while you lay on the baseline and pout."

[jacone21]

From the article...



sources told ESPN
Sources told ESPN
said one source close to the situation
a source close to the program said
sources told ESPN
a source told ESPN
added another source close to the program


Who are these people?

[Billy Dat]

This season is the ultimate Duke crucible because it comes at a time when hot take coverage and social media are fueling an atmosphere that's gone beyond 24/7...it's more like 1440 minutes per day/365 days a year. We were hyped as the best team since 2012 Kentucky, Grayson was a consensus POY candidate bouncing back from controversy, K ended the year with the Dillon Brooks scolding which carried over...and then the injuries, the Santa Ana trip and the K surgery. Nearly every college basketball podcast I listen to, in addition to the dozens of articles, tweets and talking heads on TV, have centered on one or more of the above nearly every week. In the past, if K kicked the team out of the locker room and did some clothing ban, it would get covered locally and go away. Now? It's YUGE! The hordes hungry for Duke, Grayson and K flesh are loving every minute. I have never seen anything like it.

What could possibly be next...K and Grayson brawling against Roy and Joel Berry?

[BandAlum83]

If the players were summoned to K's home, it says to me he hasn't been making even short trips to campus. (I could be way off base on this).

So, by corollary, I will go on the assumption he won't be on the sideline for Saturday's game.

[Devils Librarian]

I believe they use both and have a good sense, based on decades of experience, of when to use each.

I'm pretty tired of the lack of hustle in transition D, for example. That most definitely does not conform to the "standards of Duke basketball."

AMEN! That it has persisted this long into the season is what's puzzling. Nothing compounds a problem like making a mistake on offense and then punishing your teammates further by making them play 4 on 5 on the defensive end. I wonder how many points we have given up this season because guys decided to jog up the court.

[kAzE]

This season is the ultimate Duke crucible because it comes at a time when hot take coverage and social media are fueling an atmosphere that's gone beyond 24/7...it's more like 1440 minutes per day/365 days a year. We were hyped as the best team since 2012 Kentucky, Grayson was a consensus POY candidate bouncing back from controversy, K ended the year with the Dillon Brooks scolding which carried over...and then the injuries, the Santa Ana trip and the K surgery. Nearly every college basketball podcast I listen to, in addition to the dozens of articles, tweets and talking heads on TV, have centered on one or more of the above nearly every week. In the past, if K kicked the team out of the locker room and did some clothing ban, it would get covered locally and go away. Now? It's YUGE! The hordes hungry for Duke, Grayson and K flesh are loving every minute. I have never seen anything like it.

People love stories about successful people/programs falling from the top. Last year, it was Johnny Manziel. This year, it's unfortunately Grayson Allen and Duke.

With 24/7 social media coverage, people now have an insatiable appetite for interesting stories, and we keep feeding them juicy bits like this every week.

We need Johnny Manziel to make a comeback to take some of the heat off. Redemption stories are pretty sexy too.

[jwillfan]

If the players were summoned to K's home, it says to me he hasn't been making even short trips to campus. (I could be way off base on this).

So, by corollary, I will go on the assumption he won't be on the sideline for Saturday's game.

Could be that if he's out on disability that he's not allowed to be at work - however, IANAL and don't know what rules apply. I have a co-worker that took short-term disability as a way to take time off after she had a baby and she was not allowed to come to the office. Or I am wishfully over-thinking it? :)

[hallcity]

If this report is accurate, it means that Coach K thinks this team has the capacity to play at a high level. You wouldn't do this if you expected the team to keep losing. You'd have to give sympathetic support if you expected continued tough times or you'd lose the team entirely.

[weezie]

...The hordes hungry for Duke, Grayson and K flesh are loving every minute. I have never seen anything like it...

Let 'em howl. Louder! We've got the Greatest Coach Of All Time.

When he says cheer, we stand up.

[BandAlum83]

Could be that if he's out on disability that he's not allowed to be at work - however, IANAL and don't know what rules apply. I have a co-worker that took short-term disability as a way to take time off after she had a baby and she was not allowed to come to the office. Or I am wishfully over-thinking it? :)

I'm no expert, but given K's position(s) with the university, (Is he still a special ambassador to the university or university president, or some such thing?) I really doubt he is drawing disability for this absence. I would think he is continuing to draw his salary and working / reviewing tape / making phone calls to the best of his ability.

[Billy Dat]

Let 'em howl. Louder! We've got the Greatest Coach Of All Time.

When he says cheer, we stand up.

Damn skippy, weezie....I'M SPARTACUS!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKCmyiljKo0

[CrazyNotCrazie]

From the article...



Who are these people?

I agree - I'm assuming K wanted this meeting leaked. If not, the team is going to be seeing a whole new level of anger. Personally, I think these types of meetings should stay in house, but I am not the GOAT so what do I know.

The optimist in me says that two years ago there was something wrong on the team, Rasheed was kicked off, and things turned out pretty well...

[dukelifer]

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18560249/duke-blue-devils-coach-mike-krzyzewski-bans-players-locker-room-forbids-wearing-school-apparel

My oh my, this year is one for the books

Something is going on - But this is K's job- he has to fix it. Sometimes chemistry is not there. Hopefully they will get it worked out- otherwise start over next year.

[jacone21]

AMEN! That it has persisted this long into the season is what's puzzling. Nothing compounds a problem like making a mistake on offense and then punishing your teammates further by making them play 4 on 5 on the defensive end. I wonder how many points we have given up this season because guys decided to jog up the court.

You think he called them lollygaggers?

7104

[Dukehky]

This information was on an insider board, and ESPN took it and ran with it, almost verbatim from what Adam Rowe wrote. This is a total hack job by Goodman.

Also, this happens nearly every year at Duke. This is not desperate, it's just a motivational tool, coincidentally, tool is the word that precisely describes Jeff Goodman for ripping off our guys.

[SlapTheFloor]

I agree - I'm assuming K wanted this meeting leaked. If not, the team is going to be seeing a whole new level of anger. Personally, I think these types of meetings should stay in house, but I am not the GOAT so what do I know.

The optimist in me says that two years ago there was something wrong on the team, Rasheed was kicked off, and things turned out pretty well...

I don't know. I don't think we can kick him off again.

[Devils Librarian]

You think he called them lollygaggers?

7104

Hahahaha!!! Knowing K, I'd bet he called them quite a few names. I doubt lollygaggers was one of them.

[Brockt10]

The Wake game seems even more critical now. Probably going to be the make or break point for the season.

[Bob Green]

Also, this happens nearly every year at Duke.

I disagree.

For the record, I'm not a big fan of group punishment as a motivational tool. It backfires more than it works in my experience. During my 30 year U.S. Navy career, group punishment was commonplace especially in the early years and it typically made things worse not better. Lots of folks do not respond favorably to it.

[azzefkram]

Still embracing the optimism, though it's starting to feel like hugging a sea urchin.

[kAzE]

I disagree.

For the record, I'm not a big fan of group punishment as a motivational tool. It backfires more than it works in my experience. During my 30 year U.S. Navy career, group punishment was commonplace especially in the early years and it typically made things worse not better. Lots of folks do not respond favorably to it.

Well, FWIW, Coach K does have a reputation as a disciplinarian, and it's worked out for him to this point. He also knows better than anyone how to motivate players on a case by case basis. Some players need a pick-me-up, and others need a kick in the pants. Everyone knows that he motivates players perhaps better than any other coach. Let's see how the team responds before passing judgment.

[TKG]

Been pretty clear that K has been missed and that this team collectively needs it's butt kicked. Good move, if true. I have heard about the locker-room ban before but can't remember when it was. Any of the DBR historians want to weigh in?

The Battier-Williams-Dunleavy team got whipped, soundly, in Tallahassee. Upon return to Durham, K pulled the nameplates off the lockers and pulled the individual players pictures from the walls of the locker room as well. He told them they needed to earn those privileges.

[uh_no]

If the players were summoned to K's home, it says to me he hasn't been making even short trips to campus. (I could be way off base on this).


You are (fortunately). he was in the locker room at halftime of the miami game, and was in his office for the state game.

[Rich]

The Wake game seems even more critical now. Probably going to be the make or break point for the season.

Critical...yes.

Make or break point for the season...I think that's a little dramatic and somewhat extreme. Although we're running out of time to get it together, we're not quite there yet, especially if we keep improving.

[WiJoe]

I disagree.

For the record, I'm not a big fan of group punishment as a motivational tool. It backfires more than it works in my experience. During my 30 year U.S. Navy career, group punishment was commonplace especially in the early years and it typically made things worse not better. Lots of folks do not respond favorably to it.

No disrespect intended (I'm on probation so I have to make certain I'm not misunderstood), but that was a different time, yes?

[Devils Librarian]

I disagree.

For the record, I'm not a big fan of group punishment as a motivational tool. It backfires more than it works in my experience. During my 30 year U.S. Navy career, group punishment was commonplace especially in the early years and it typically made things worse not better. Lots of folks do not respond favorably to it.

So what you're saying, Bob, is that my idea to take the team to Wallace Wade and have them run the steps while our biggest liability on defense sits at mid field sipping tea at a fancy table, would backfire?

[Bob Green]

Let's see how the team responds before passing judgment.

I'm not passing judgement simply stating this tactic is a gamble. I've seen lots of failure with group punishment/negative reinforcement.

[CDu]

No disrespect intended (I'm on probation so I have to make certain I'm not misunderstood), but that was a different time, yes?

I doubt people are more likely to be accepting of group punishment today than they were back then.

[Bob Green]

No disrespect intended (I'm on probation so I have to make certain I'm not misunderstood), but that was a different time, yes?

1977 - 2007. I retired 10 years ago. A different time but not ancient history. From my perspective, young folks today would be less receptive to group punishment.

[NM Duke Fan]

Well, FWIW, Coach K does have a reputation as a disciplinarian, and it's worked out for him to this point. He also knows better than anyone how to motivate players on a case by case basis. Some players need a pick-me-up, and others need a kick in the pants. Everyone knows that he motivates players perhaps better than any other coach. Let's see how the team responds before passing judgment.

This! What has always stood out to me about coach K is his understanding of the individual and group psychology in real time, and as he has stated: "A season is a lifetime." Each season and each player each season may require a different approach depending on so many factors we have little clue about, and he has his finger on the individual and collective pulses. I am glad to hear about this and look forward to Saturday's game all the more now.

[uh_no]

I disagree.

For the record, I'm not a big fan of group punishment as a motivational tool. It backfires more than it works in my experience. During my 30 year U.S. Navy career, group punishment was commonplace especially in the early years and it typically made things worse not better. Lots of folks do not respond favorably to it.

I like to think that K has a number of tools in his discipline toolbox, and from what I've read of his books (sorry...haven't read all of them!) that is likely true. I can't imagine the punishment was not doled out without careful consideration of whether it would achieve its intended effect.

That said, recognizing that different folks respond differently to motivational techniques, especially in light of the whole grayson thing.

[flyingdutchdevil]

...kinda like a bunch of us at DBR.

I applaud Coach K for this. Clearly needed. This team is way more talented than it's record indicates. Work as a team! Be proud to wear Duke! And get your $%# back on defense!

My take: this team is insanely and unjustifiable entitled. I think they think they are still the #1 team in the country. And I think Coach K needs to break em down before he builds them back up.

Go Duke!

[TKG]

It will be interesting to see how the team responds. For some of the players this might be the first time a coach has criticized them as K did, apparently. The older players on the team have probably been on the receiving end of K's temper. The younger fellas not so much. Will the guys respond or bide their time, respectively, to the NBA draft?

[Troublemaker]

WRALSportsFan ‏@WRALSportsFan (https://twitter.com/WRALSportsFan) 4m4 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/WRALSportsFan/status/824734162452180992)
Capel 'disappointed' Duke's dirty laundry airs on ESPN http://wr.al/177iW (https://t.co/XE5b3DwAfZ)


All Capel would say was that he was disappointed to hear Duke's dirty laundry aired on in the national media.

"It's disappointing when stuff that's supposed to stay in the locker room gets out," Capel told Adam and Joe on 99.9 FM The Fan ESPN Radio.

[El_Diablo]

I'm not passing judgement simply stating this tactic is a gamble. I've seen lots of failure with group punishment/negative reinforcement.

But group punishment and negative reinforcement is very routine in team sports (e.g., wind sprints, adding an early morning practice after a bad team performance, etc.). This is a difference in degree, of course, but the concept of being punished as a group is not going to be a foreign one for any of the players.

[DBFAN]

I think it's a great move. It has worked in the past so no reason not to try again. Plus we have no idea if the other motivation ideas haven't already been tried and failed. The one thing that I find to be important is the not being able to wear Duke gear. I could be wrong but I don't remember him doing that in the past. To me that is a huge kick in their collective tails. Pretty much saying you have embarrassed this program and yourselves so badly that you wearing Duke stuff outside of games, makes the coaches embarrassed

[Brockt10]

Critical...yes.

Make or break point for the season...I think that's a little dramatic and somewhat extreme. Although we're running out of time to get it together, we're not quite there yet, especially if we keep improving.

I see where you are coming from but I'm not sure you are right. I'm not sure we can "keep" improving when it feels like we are stagnant at best (I know we are injured). We have 11 acc games left and we will realistically, at this point, be favored in 4 or 5. If we finish the season 19-12 are we in the tournament? We need the turnaround now and I think K knows.

But still...GO DUKE AND LET'S DESTROY WAKE!

[DBFAN]

WRALSportsFan ‏@WRALSportsFan (https://twitter.com/WRALSportsFan) 4m4 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/WRALSportsFan/status/824734162452180992)
Capel 'disappointed' Duke's dirty laundry airs on ESPN http://wr.al/177iW (https://t.co/XE5b3DwAfZ)


No way on earth I can believe that this wasn't leaked on Purpose. If they were able to keep the Sheed situation from getting out then I would imagine this could be kept quiet rather easily

[flyingdutchdevil]

WRALSportsFan ‏@WRALSportsFan (https://twitter.com/WRALSportsFan) 4m4 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/WRALSportsFan/status/824734162452180992)
Capel 'disappointed' Duke's dirty laundry airs on ESPN http://wr.al/177iW (https://t.co/XE5b3DwAfZ)


Well, at least none of the players recorded the meeting live on Facebook.

[Pghdukie]

A good "Ego Busting", my guess some of the players have never had a good I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. chewing. We'll see the results soon. The next practice might be 1 for the ages.
I also tend to think some PT may be affected.

Anyone care to name the starters for the Wake game ?

[cato]

This information was on an insider board, and ESPN took it and ran with it, almost verbatim from what Adam Rowe wrote. This is a total hack job by Goodman.

Also, this happens nearly every year at Duke. This is not desperate, it's just a motivational tool, coincidentally, tool is the word that precisely describes Jeff Goodman for ripping off our guys.

Adam Rowe is the only person getting paid to write about Duke that has sources?

[DukieInKansas]

I just hope they all get their #$@% together so they can wear Duke gear on Saturday.

[flyingdutchdevil]

A good "Ego Busting", my guess some of the players have never had a good I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. chewing. We'll see the results soon. The next practice might be 1 for the ages.
I also tend to think some PT may be affected.

Anyone care to name the starters for the Wake game ?

Matt Jones. Amile Jefferson. Luke Kennard.

One idea about the other two. But, if I were to guess, it would be Bolden and...ummmmm...no idea.

IMO, I'd be SHOCKED to see Tatum or Giles start.

[English]

I think it's a great move. It has worked in the past so no reason not to try again. Plus we have no idea if the other motivation ideas haven't already been tried and failed. The one thing that I find to be important is the not being able to wear Duke gear. I could be wrong but I don't remember him doing that in the past. To me that is a huge kick in their collective tails. Pretty much saying you have embarrassed this program and yourselves so badly that you wearing Duke stuff outside of games, makes the coaches embarrassed

I don't think the message is "don't wear Duke gear because you're embarrassing us." Rather, the message is "you haven't earned the right to wear Duke gear, so until that happens, you can wear street clothes."

[uh_no]

Matt Jones. Amile Jefferson. Luke Kennard.

One idea about the other two. But, if I were to guess, it would be Bolden and...ummmmm...no idea.

IMO, I'd be SHOCKED to see Tatum or Giles start.

Pagliuca
Jack white
Matt Jones
Vrankovic
jefferson

[buddy]

Anyone care to name the starters for the Wake game ?

Is Patrick Davidson available?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Pagliuca
Jack white
Matt Jones
Vrankovic
jefferson

Yeah. I wouldn't bet against that strategy.

Is it me, or is Wake the team we always play with hilarious line-ups?

[WillJ]

Cory Alexander mentioned in the pre-conference season that it would be difficult to mesh the egos once the superfrosh returned. He was bashed for it. It sounds like he might have been on to something, at least a little.

Hopefully the NC State loss, the players-only meeting, and Coach K's punishments have gotten the team back on the right track.

I remember this - Cory was spot on.

[brlftz]

[snip] I also tend to think some PT may be affected.

Anyone care to name the starters for the Wake game ?

This is a fascinating question, and one I've been thinking about. Who would we say has been playing Duke basketball, and how do you define that? For me, I'm looking for team first/playing with passion at all times guys.

If he were healthy, I'd actually put Chase on the list. He's far from our best player, but I feel like he's shown a positive attitude at all times and in situations that might normally get one down, and is always working hard. He's taken disappointment well and really hung in there. Matt and Amile are on my list for sure, and I also would include Frank.

[mr. synellinden]

This is a fascinating question, and one I've been thinking about. Who would we say has been playing Duke basketball, and how do you define that? For me, I'm looking for team first/playing with passion at all times guys.

If he were healthy, I'd actually put Chase on the list. He's far from our best player, but I feel like he's shown a positive attitude at all times and in situations that might normally get one down, and is always working hard. He's taken disappointment well and really hung in there. Matt and Amile are on my list for sure, and I also would include Frank.

I'll predict:

Jackson
Jones
Kennard
Jefferson
Bolden

[Bob Green]

But group punishment and negative reinforcement is very routine in team sports (e.g., wind sprints, adding an early morning practice after a bad team performance, etc.). This is a difference in degree, of course, but the concept of being punished as a group is not going to be a foreign one for any of the players.

I'm going to concede the point after this very last post on the subject:

1. I spent 30 years in the military.
2. Group punishment/negative reinforcement was commonplace.
3. It did not always work. In fact, it routinely made things worse.

Bob Green out.

[gam7]

"It's disappointing when stuff that's supposed to stay in the locker room gets out," Capel told Adam and Joe on 99.9 FM The Fan ESPN Radio.



Maybe when everyone was kicked out of the locker room, that "stuff" thought it was supposed to get out too?

[Indoor66]

Matt Jones. Amile Jefferson. Luke Kennard.

One idea about the other two. But, if I were to guess, it would be Bolden and...ummmmm...no idea.

IMO, I'd be SHOCKED to see Tatum or Giles start.

Vrank & Jack

[buddy]

At first blush I like the move. This team needs some focus. It has been a disruptive season. We had a good start without the freshmen, but the team declined as the freshmen came back. Chemistry? Envy? Lack of practice time together? Who knows, but it hasn't worked as we hoped. Kennard's comment about sharing was an indication of issues.

If Capel's comment about disappointment with the airing of dirty linen is on the level (instead of coach speak to cover an intentional leak) this points to a different problem. That even after the *&# chewing someone didn't get the message means everyone is not on the same page. That would not be good. With respect to Rasheed I expect only K, the coaches (at least some) and 'Sheed know exactly what the precise issue was, so maybe (?) it would be easier to maintain radio silence. But this team needs a wake up call, including virtually every member thereof. Makes me feel even more sorry for Capel. How can he be in charge in K still sets the rules? Makes me think K may be on the bench sooner than we thought.

As for the group punishment, I do echo Bob Green's comment about the effect in the military (in which I served briefly and without distinction). But there you do have a group of people who while they may have all volunteered for service, did not necessarily volunteer for the specific unit or duty. So I can see the distinction. But in K I trust.

[uh_no]

Who would we say has been playing Duke basketball, and how do you define that?

luke matt frank bolden.
I see those guys out busting their butts every time they're on the floor, regardless of how they're playing. I see them executing to the best of their ability, even if their best isn't always good enough. Matt and marques have turned their seasons around in the past few games. Luke's been consistent all season, and frank goes out there and balls.

Not even amile is on my list right now. Despite undeniably being a good leader, far too often I see him not getting back and even worse, arguing calls while he should be getting back.

[Troublemaker]

from another thread:



If we play "Guess the Starters" again for the Wake Forest game, I'm going with:

Grayson - Luke - Matt - Amile - Marques

If Grayson's finger or other body part is bothering him, then swap in Frank.

I'm not as confident about this guess as I was for the NCSU starting lineup. For that one, I said 75% confidence. Here, 51%.

The 4 vets that carried us when we were playing well early in the season with a 6-man rotation. Plus Bolden, who hustles, and was arguably the missing piece against Kansas.

[brlftz]

I'm going to concede the point after this very last post on the subject:

1. I spent 30 years in the military.
2. Group punishment/negative reinforcement was commonplace.
3. It did not always work. In fact, it routinely made things worse.

Bob Green out.

agree with you that it's typically counter productive, but I think that's because it's one of those special tools that should only be used by experts. my son sees it at school all the time, used by a lazy, uninvolved and uninformed teacher, and it's poisonous. in the hands of coach k, who knows a LOT about what's going on, knows exactly what he's trying to achieve and has lots of experience using different tactics, I'm a lot more confident.

[DukeFanSince1990]

But group punishment and negative reinforcement is very routine in team sports (e.g., wind sprints, adding an early morning practice after a bad team performance, etc.). This is a difference in degree, of course, but the concept of being punished as a group is not going to be a foreign one for any of the players.

Yep. Anyone who has played organized sports on a fairly competitive level will tell you this. Everything is done as a unit.

[devildeac]

Is Patrick Davidson available?

How about Jay Heaps?

[Chicago 1995]

At first blush I like the move. This team needs some focus. It has been a disruptive season. We had a good start without the freshmen, but the team declined as the freshmen came back. Chemistry? Envy? Lack of practice time together? Who knows, but it hasn't worked as we hoped. Kennard's comment about sharing was an indication of issues.

If Capel's comment about disappointment with the airing of dirty linen is on the level (instead of coach speak to cover an intentional leak) this points to a different problem. That even after the *&# chewing someone didn't get the message means everyone is not on the same page. That would not be good. With respect to Rasheed I expect only K, the coaches (at least some) and 'Sheed know exactly what the precise issue was, so maybe (?) it would be easier to maintain radio silence. But this team needs a wake up call, including virtually every member thereof. Makes me feel even more sorry for Capel. How can he be in charge in K still sets the rules? Makes me think K may be on the bench sooner than we thought.

As for the group punishment, I do echo Bob Green's comment about the effect in the military (in which I served briefly and without distinction). But there you do have a group of people who while they may have all volunteered for service, did not necessarily volunteer for the specific unit or duty. So I can see the distinction. But in K I trust.

There are so many ways this could get out that I don't think it can be blamed on guys not keeping it in the locker room. How many managers? How many maintenance folk? How many roommates?

I think this is kind of lame, but it's not like it's new or anything. Been done in the past. Been done other places.

Who starts? Who knows. I think there's not necessarily a right answer, but there are wrong answers.

[grossbus]

Hard for me to understand how K can do this and NOT be on the bench Saturday.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Hard for me to understand how K can do this and NOT be on the bench Saturday.

I'd say at the game. Near his players and next to his assistant coaches. But on the bench? Can they convert a few chairs to a hospital bed? :D

[neemizzle]

from another thread:



The 4 vets that carried us when we were playing well early in the season with a 6-man rotation. Plus Bolden, who hustles, and was arguably the missing piece against Kansas.

I believe this lineup is probably best. I also completely agree with Bolden. His improvement in the last 2 games has been quite honestly miraculous and often overlooked. He's got a fire in his eyes.

Just give me the people who want to give 100%. If that's Pags, I'll take Pags.

[kAzE]

I'd say at the game. Near his players and next to his assistant coaches. But on the bench? Can they convert a few chairs to a hospital bed? :D

I'm sure he's able to walk and sit in a chair. The surgery was on 1/5, after all, and it will have been 23 days by Saturday. His leave of absence was "up to" 4 weeks. Somebody get that man a Phil Jackson-style ergonomic throne.

I hope he's back for this one. We need him. Sometimes, you gotta play hurt.

[duke4ever19]

Far be it from me to be critical of the most successful basketball coach ever, but this particular story has, at best, bad optics, IMO. It just makes us look more spoiled and entitled, if anything.

I'm not a real believer that negative reinforcement is a great motivator in general. I'm more of a believer that people usually respond to positive reinforcement.

I can see this tactic working, and it apparently has in the past; but I could also see it backfiring in a big way, depending on a player's mindset.

Just my $0.02, and probably not worth that much.

I would say in general, it can backfire big time.

But there is a recent example of it working well:

Did you read Capel's piece about his father? He cussed his son out for whining about his treatment by Coach K. Walked off leaving his son with the bill. Smacked him back into reality.

I'd also point you a couple stories Chris Collins' relates about Redick during his interview on the J.J.'s podcast.

I think it can work with the kids that have strong competitive drives.

[Chicago 1995]

I believe this lineup is probably best. I also completely agree with Bolden. His improvement in the last 2 games has been quite honestly miraculous and often overlooked. He's got a fire in his eyes.

Just give me the people who want to give 100%. If that's Pags, I'll take Pags.

Agree with the 100%

I think a six man rotation with the four vets is likely, but is likely one of the wrong answers I alluded to earlier.

[DukieInKansas]

I'm sure he's able to walk and sit in a chair. The surgery was on 1/5, after all, and it will have been 23 days by Saturday. His leave of absence was "up to" 4 weeks. Somebody get that man a Phil Jackson-style ergonomic throne.

I hope he's back for this one. We need him. Sometimes, you gotta play hurt.

If it were a home game, I would say he is there - but the travel to Wake might be hard on his back.

[Steven43]

Far be it from me to be critical of the most successful basketball coach ever, but this particular story has, at best, bad optics, IMO. It just makes us look more spoiled and entitled, if anything.

I'm not a real believer that negative reinforcement is a great motivator in general. I'm more of a believer that people usually respond to positive reinforcement.

I can see this tactic working, and it apparently has in the past; but I could also see it backfiring in a big way, depending on a player's mindset.

Just my $0.02, and probably not worth that much.
Would you mind providing some examples of the positive reinforcement you would use in this situation? Seriously, I would honestly like to know.

[Troublemaker]

Agree with the 100%

I think a six man rotation with the four vets is likely, but is likely one of the wrong answers I alluded to earlier.

To be clear, I expect an 8-man rotation. Was just noting that somehow we were playing better basketball in the 6-man rotation days with those 4 vets leading the way.

Unless one of the 8 is found out to be the leak to the media, I expect them all to play.

[devil84]

I'm going to concede the point after this very last post on the subject:

1. I spent 30 years in the military.
2. Group punishment/negative reinforcement was commonplace.
3. It did not always work. In fact, it routinely made things worse.

Bob Green out.

(Not directed specifically to you Bob, because you definitely have a point -- this is more general.)

It depends upon what the wrongdoing is. Destructively negative comments will always make things worse. "Y'all <expletives> can't play for <expletive>" isn't going to help. It's demoralizing, and it's also demonstratively false, as these guys are clearly talented players.

I would think that the current punishment fits the crime of taking their circumstances for granted. Something like, loafing back on defense after sinking a three because they can get the block, then sink another three. Whining too much or blaming officiating/the other team/teammates for missed shots or missed circumstances. Talking after the game like the loss was no big deal, or otherwise not taking responsibility for their performance. Things that have little to do with the actual skills of actual defense or offense, but how they carry themselves.

And how do we know that K gave a blistering tirade? Did you ever do something wrong, really wrong, and instead of yelling and screaming at you, your parents very calmly said, "You really disappointed me." I'd rather have them yell at me! Here's how my parents would pile on: "So what do you think your punishment should be?" So, was the player's meeting to decide this and decide how to right the identified wrongs? Or were they given the punishment and told to go figure things out?

WE DON'T KNOW. I certainly have no inside information on this, only a vaguely educated guess. I'd guess that while there were some really blistering comments that stung, it may have been challenge issued to rise to the occasion, rather than tearing them down.

[BandAlum83]

You are (fortunately). he was in the locker room at halftime of the miami game, and was in his office for the state game.

That's been verified that he was in the locker room at halftime against Miami? Did he speak to the team?

I thought that was just baseless conjecture.

[Stray Gator]

The Battier-Williams-Dunleavy team got whipped, soundly, in Tallahassee. Upon return to Durham, K pulled the nameplates off the lockers and pulled the individual players pictures from the walls of the locker room as well. He told them they needed to earn those privileges.

My review of the records may be mistaken, so correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that (a) no Duke team on which Shane Battier played ever lost to Florida State, at any location; and (b) no Duke men's basketball team ever lost to Florida State in Tallahassee by more than 5 points before this season. I do recall the disciplinary incident that you've described, but I think that loss must have been to a team other than FSU.

[freshmanjs]

My review of the records may be mistaken, so correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that (a) no Duke team on which Shane Battier played ever lost to Florida State, at any location; and (b) no Duke men's basketball team ever lost to Florida State in Tallahassee by more than 5 points before this season. I do recall the disciplinary incident that you've described, but I think that loss must have been to a team other than FSU.

The 2001-02 team (after Battier's time) did lose @ FSU by 1 point. I am not sure if there was a discipline incident immediately after that or not.

[flyingdutchdevil]

(Not directed specifically to you Bob, because you definitely have a point -- this is more general.)

It depends upon what the wrongdoing is. Destructively negative comments will always make things worse. "Y'all <expletives> can't play for <expletive>" isn't going to help. It's demoralizing, and it's also demonstratively false, as these guys are clearly talented players.

I would think that the current punishment fits the crime of taking their circumstances for granted. Something like, loafing back on defense after sinking a three because they can get the block, then sink another three. Whining too much or blaming officiating/the other team/teammates for missed shots or missed circumstances. Talking after the game like the loss was no big deal, or otherwise not taking responsibility for their performance. Things that have little to do with the actual skills of actual defense or offense, but how they carry themselves.

And how do we know that K gave a blistering tirade? Did you ever do something wrong, really wrong, and instead of yelling and screaming at you, your parents very calmly said, "You really disappointed me." I'd rather have them yell at me! Here's how my parents would pile on: "So what do you think your punishment should be?" So, was the player's meeting to decide this and decide how to right the identified wrongs? Or were they given the punishment and told to go figure things out?

WE DON'T KNOW. I certainly have no inside information on this, only a vaguely educated guess. I'd guess that while there were some really blistering comments that stung, it may have been challenge issued to rise to the occasion, rather than tearing them down.

I assume this happened this year? If so, when? Very interested in reading that article/watching that video.

[Devilwin]

Coach Capel saying he's distressed this went public.

[cato]

Would you mind providing some examples of the positive reinforcement you would use in this situation? Seriously, I would honestly like to know.


The low handing fruit would be: starting the five player who are best meeting the coaches standards.

ETA: I am not disagreeing with K's methods. Just pointing to an example of positive reinforcement.

[uh_no]

That's been verified that he was in the locker room at halftime against Miami? Did he speak to the team?

I thought that was just baseless conjecture.

That's what I was told by a former manager.

[billy]

I think this is kind of lame, but it's not like it's new or anything. Been done in the past. Been done other places

During the interview (I am not sure if it's in the part linked above in the thread) Capel agreed that it happens all the time and that he was aware of it occurring in at a couple of schools right now

[rsvman]

Would you mind providing some examples of the positive reinforcement you would use in this situation? Seriously, I would honestly like to know.

It's an entirely different approach to discipline. It works with your kids, too. What you do is instead of looking for stuff that they do that annoys you, you look for stuff they do that you LIKE, and then you reinforce and reward that behavior. For example, if your middle school kid brings home a report card that says Math A, English A-, Social Studies C, History D, when you look at it you say, "Great work in Math and English!" And then you provide the child with whatever reward you want. The kid gets the message that good work is rewarded.

So, in a case like this, you look for players who exhibited play that you want to encourage. You might then say something like, "Frank, nice job out there. You hustled your butt off the entire time you were in there, dove for loose balls, and played hard on D. That's what Duke basketball is all about. You get the start at Wake." Then you look around the room and say, "Matt, awesome hustle. Great defense, nice steals. Your effort is really appreciated. You get the start at Wake." (Or, to one or both, not just the start but big minutes, or whatever.) Look around again, think of behavior you WANT, find it, reward it. "Luke, you didn't get a lot of minutes, but you made the most of them. Excellent shot selection, good hard D. You'll start and you'll get a LOT more minutes in the Wake game."

And if that's all the good you found, that's it. You're done. Everybody soon learns that if you didn't point them out, you weren't pleased with their play. You don't have to tell them that you weren't pleased. They know it.

Then, during practice this week, whenever somebody does what you want, you reward it. Tell them you're choosing the rest of the starters and the big-minutes players by how well they do in practice. Then reward the ones that do what you want.

Keep this up over the course of the season and people are much more likely to do what you want them to do. It works especially well in parenting, but is unfortunately very, very seldom used, because it's hard to do. "Water the roses, ignore the thorns."

Do I think you could run an entire basketball team at this level this way? Probably not, unless you'd been practicing it for years. But I do believe that, in general, people as a species respond better to rewards than they do to punishment; to bribes better than to threats.

[MaxAMillion]

Coach Capel saying he's distressed this went public.

He should be.,..this is bigger than the punishment itself. Apparently a connection/understanding has not been made within the team to keep everything in house. I think that potentially speaks to everyone not being on the same page.

[El_Diablo]

The 2001-02 team (after Battier's time) did lose @ FSU by 1 point. I am not sure if there was a discipline incident immediately after that or not.

The Free Throw Game (we missed six free throws in the final 90 seconds, and Dunleavy and Williams were a combined 1-10 on FT for the game). Still frustrating to think about.

I am not sure what, if any, coaching punishment was doled out after that loss (it was our first loss of the season, so it may not have been all that drastic), but either way, we went on to win 11 straight after that, crushing FSU by over 30 a month later in Cameron.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I have no idea what is going on in the locker room, but it can't be good with this action.

On thing I have to say...all I've heard for two years is what great talent the freshmen have. Really? I have been patient, waiting to see it, but I simply haven't seen high level talent on the court by anybody on this team beyond Kennard who I think is playing very well over all. It's all been press box hype, and maybe it's gotten to some players heads.

Matt Jones has been solid, as has Amile when he's been healthy. Tatum has shown some nice skill but is playing like freshmen do.

Giles and Bolden just have not shown me anywhere close to a high level ACC quality skill set, yet. Potential has to play at some point.

Allen has talent, but he's been a disappointment this season and just needs to settle down and play. And with young guys sometimes that's easier said than done.

Seasons like this are why I was not prepared to anoint the conference title or national title when all we had seen was star rankings based on potential...I'm too old and have seen this movie before with plenty of teams.

Ya gotta play the games.

[flyingdutchdevil]

It's an entirely different approach to discipline. It works with your kids, too. What you do is instead of looking for stuff that they do that annoys you, you look for stuff they do that you LIKE, and then you reinforce and reward that behavior. For example, if your middle school kid brings home a report card that says Math A, English A-, Social Studies C, History D, when you look at it you say, "Great work in Math and English!" And then you provide the child with whatever reward you want. The kid gets the message that good work is rewarded.

So, in a case like this, you look for players who exhibited play that you want to encourage. You might then say something like, "Frank, nice job out there. You hustled your butt off the entire time you were in there, dove for loose balls, and played hard on D. That's what Duke basketball is all about. You get the start at Wake." Then you look around the room and say, "Matt, awesome hustle. Great defense, nice steals. Your effort is really appreciated. You get the start at Wake." (Or, to one or both, not just the start but big minutes, or whatever.) Look around again, think of behavior you WANT, find it, reward it. "Luke, you didn't get a lot of minutes, but you made the most of them. Excellent shot selection, good hard D. You'll start and you'll get a LOT more minutes in the Wake game."

And if that's all the good you found, that's it. You're done. Everybody soon learns that if you didn't point them out, you weren't pleased with their play. You don't have to tell them that you weren't pleased. They know it.

Then, during practice this week, whenever somebody does what you want, you reward it. Tell them you're choosing the rest of the starters and the big-minutes players by how well they do in practice. Then reward the ones that do what you want.

Keep this up over the course of the season and people are much more likely to do what you want them to do. It works especially well in parenting, but is unfortunately very, very seldom used, because it's hard to do. "Water the roses, ignore the thorns."

Do I think you could run an entire basketball team at this level this way? Probably not, unless you'd been practicing it for years. But I do believe that, in general, people as a species respond better to rewards than they do to punishment; to bribes better than to threats.

My mother would say, "What the hell happened in Social Studies and History?!?!?!" I'd definitely get a lecture, probably a smack on the butt, and likely grounded.

But you know what? My mother's mentality made me work my butt off, which subsequently made me go to Duke. No way in hell I get into Duke without that negative reinforcement.

I agree that positive reinforcement works, but so does negative reinforcement.

[TKG]

My review of the records may be mistaken, so correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that (a) no Duke team on which Shane Battier played ever lost to Florida State, at any location; and (b) no Duke men's basketball team ever lost to Florida State in Tallahassee by more than 5 points before this season. I do recall the disciplinary incident that you've described, but I think that loss must have been to a team other than FSU.

Mea culpa on the Duke team and opponent, Stray. For some reason, I have a memory of Dunleavy being on the team that was on the receiving end of K's "frustration".

[Edouble]

The Battier-Williams-Dunleavy team got whipped, soundly, in Tallahassee. Upon return to Durham, K pulled the nameplates off the lockers and pulled the individual players pictures from the walls of the locker room as well. He told them they needed to earn those privileges.

NO NO NO !!!!!

They most certainly did not! That team won in Tallahassee 99-72 and beat the Seminoles again in Cameron 100-58.

The 2001 National Championship team had 3 ACC losses: UNC at Cameron, UVA at UHall, and Maryland at Cameron (Boozer breaks his foot).
Battier would never have allowed the team to get to the point where they needed their nameplates taken off of their lockers.

The nameplates coming off of the lockers was the next season. And the "sound whipping" was a one point loss (76-77), BTW.

[Steven43]

It's an entirely different approach to discipline. It works with your kids, too. What you do is instead of looking for stuff that they do that annoys you, you look for stuff they do that you LIKE, and then you reinforce and reward that behavior. For example, if your middle school kid brings home a report card that says Math A, English A-, Social Studies C, History D, when you look at it you say, "Great work in Math and English!" And then you provide the child with whatever reward you want. The kid gets the message that good work is rewarded.

So, in a case like this, you look for players who exhibited play that you want to encourage. You might then say something like, "Frank, nice job out there. You hustled your butt off the entire time you were in there, dove for loose balls, and played hard on D. That's what Duke basketball is all about. You get the start at Wake." Then you look around the room and say, "Matt, awesome hustle. Great defense, nice steals. Your effort is really appreciated. You get the start at Wake." (Or, to one or both, not just the start but big minutes, or whatever.) Look around again, think of behavior you WANT, find it, reward it. "Luke, you didn't get a lot of minutes, but you made the most of them. Excellent shot selection, good hard D. You'll start and you'll get a LOT more minutes in the Wake game."

And if that's all the good you found, that's it. You're done. Everybody soon learns that if you didn't point them out, you weren't pleased with their play. You don't have to tell them that you weren't pleased. They know it.

Then, during practice this week, whenever somebody does what you want, you reward it. Tell them you're choosing the rest of the starters and the big-minutes players by how well they do in practice. Then reward the ones that do what you want.

Keep this up over the course of the season and people are much more likely to do what you want them to do. It works especially well in parenting, but is unfortunately very, very seldom used, because it's hard to do. "Water the roses, ignore the thorns."

Do I think you could run an entire basketball team at this level this way? Probably not, unless you'd been practicing it for years. But I do believe that, in general, people as a species respond better to rewards than they do to punishment; to bribes better than to threats.
Thanks for the thoughtful post. My wife is always telling me to parent this way, but I don't know how to do it well. It's just feels so new agey, know what I mean? I'm trying, but it seems so antithetical to what I have always thought of as good parenting. I feel you show your kids what to do through your example and also with your words and if they don't follow through you correct (reprimand) them. Not with physicality; with words. Maybe I've had it wrong these past 16 years (the age of my eldest).

Coach K seems to be kind of old school as far as this subject goes. Maybe REALLY old school. I've known his daughter, Debbie, for 15 years and she has always said only positive things about dad. So who knows? I trust Coach to figure this out. Can't think of anyone more qualified for this Herculean task.

[mgtr]

Based mainly on info in this thread, plus the evidence of my eyes, I think the only sure starters are Matt, Amile, and Luke. Maybe Frank. Beyond that, it is a wag -- maybe you could say not X, not Y, but I don't know that K sees things the way I do.
Should be an interesting game.

[sagegrouse]

Could be that if he's out on disability that he's not allowed to be at work - however, IANAL and don't know what rules apply. I have a co-worker that took short-term disability as a way to take time off after she had a baby and she was not allowed to come to the office. Or I am wishfully over-thinking it? :)

K has a mega contract with some lifetime components -- I don't think sick leave, or short-term disability, figures into it.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Based mainly on info in this thread, plus the evidence of my eyes, I think the only sure starters are Matt, Amile, and Luke. Maybe Frank. Beyond that, it is a wag -- maybe you could say not X, not Y, but I don't know that K sees things the way I do.
Should be an interesting game.

I think it's easier to say who won't start than who will. And I've identified two players who I'm 99.99% confident will not start.

[TKG]

NO NO NO !!!!!

They most certainly did not! That team won in Tallahassee 99-72 and beat the Seminoles again in Cameron 100-58.

The 2001 National Championship team had 3 ACC losses: UNC at Cameron, UVA at UHall, and Maryland at Cameron (Boozer breaks his foot).
Battier would never have allowed the team to get to the point where they needed their nameplates taken off of their lockers.

The nameplates coming off of the lockers was the next season. And the "sound whipping" was a one point loss (76-77), BTW.

I guess I was wrong..... .

[53n206]

I'm sure he's able to walk and sit in a chair. The surgery was on 1/5, after all, and it will have been 23 days by Saturday. His leave of absence was "up to" 4 weeks. Somebody get that man a Phil Jackson-style ergonomic throne.

I hope he's back for this one. We need him. Sometimes, you gotta play hurt.

Play hurt Ok, But you want to live healed.

[mgtr]

I think it's easier to say who won't start than who will. And I've identified two players who I'm 99.99% confident will not start.

Agree with your point, and your two players.

[Jeffrey]

I'm not a real believer that negative reinforcement is a great motivator in general. I'm more of a believer that people usually respond to positive reinforcement.


I would have failed as a CEO, if I did not have positive & negative tools in my box. IMO, all CEOs need both and the skill to utilize each. Clearly, Coach K has the skill.

[DukieInKansas]

What is the status of Justin Robinson? Will he get a chance to play?

[DukieInKansas]

It's an entirely different approach to discipline. It works with your kids, too. What you do is instead of looking for stuff that they do that annoys you, you look for stuff they do that you LIKE, and then you reinforce and reward that behavior. For example, if your middle school kid brings home a report card that says Math A, English A-, Social Studies C, History D, when you look at it you say, "Great work in Math and English!" And then you provide the child with whatever reward you want. The kid gets the message that good work is rewarded.

So, in a case like this, you look for players who exhibited play that you want to encourage. You might then say something like, "Frank, nice job out there. You hustled your butt off the entire time you were in there, dove for loose balls, and played hard on D. That's what Duke basketball is all about. You get the start at Wake." Then you look around the room and say, "Matt, awesome hustle. Great defense, nice steals. Your effort is really appreciated. You get the start at Wake." (Or, to one or both, not just the start but big minutes, or whatever.) Look around again, think of behavior you WANT, find it, reward it. "Luke, you didn't get a lot of minutes, but you made the most of them. Excellent shot selection, good hard D. You'll start and you'll get a LOT more minutes in the Wake game."

And if that's all the good you found, that's it. You're done. Everybody soon learns that if you didn't point them out, you weren't pleased with their play. You don't have to tell them that you weren't pleased. They know it.

Then, during practice this week, whenever somebody does what you want, you reward it. Tell them you're choosing the rest of the starters and the big-minutes players by how well they do in practice. Then reward the ones that do what you want.

Keep this up over the course of the season and people are much more likely to do what you want them to do. It works especially well in parenting, but is unfortunately very, very seldom used, because it's hard to do. "Water the roses, ignore the thorns."

Do I think you could run an entire basketball team at this level this way? Probably not, unless you'd been practicing it for years. But I do believe that, in general, people as a species respond better to rewards than they do to punishment; to bribes better than to threats.

I thought Coach K already rewarded play in practice with playing time.

Perhaps the positive approach wasn't working as well as it should this time.

[norduck]

How about Jay Heaps?

That'll work and take some of the heat off Grayson.

[DukieInKansas]

That'll work and take some of the heat off Grayson.

Is Ted Cruz available? He could take some heat of Grayson.

[subzero02]

(Not directed specifically to you Bob, because you definitely have a point -- this is more general.)

It depends upon what the wrongdoing is. Destructively negative comments will always make things worse. "Y'all <expletives> can't play for <expletive>" isn't going to help. It's demoralizing, and it's also demonstratively false, as these guys are clearly talented players.

I would think that the current punishment fits the crime of taking their circumstances for granted. Something like, loafing back on defense after sinking a three because they can get the block, then sink another three. Whining too much or blaming officiating/the other team/teammates for missed shots or missed circumstances. Talking after the game like the loss was no big deal, or otherwise not taking responsibility for their performance. Things that have little to do with the actual skills of actual defense or offense, but how they carry themselves.

And how do we know that K gave a blistering tirade? Did you ever do something wrong, really wrong, and instead of yelling and screaming at you, your parents very calmly said, "You really disappointed me." I'd rather have them yell at me! Here's how my parents would pile on: "So what do you think your punishment should be?" So, was the player's meeting to decide this and decide how to right the identified wrongs? Or were they given the punishment and told to go figure things out?

WE DON'T KNOW. I certainly have no inside information on this, only a vaguely educated guess. I'd guess that while there were some really blistering comments that stung, it may have been challenge issued to rise to the occasion, rather than tearing them down.

There are very few absolutes when dealing with individual players and this isn't one of them. I would say this tactic works with a significant portion of players. I have seen teams and individuals react quite positively to being verbally berated with the most profane and in some instances, illogical insults. IIRC, Bobby Knight had quite a bit of success on the collegiate level and I seriously doubt he has ever used the words positive and reinforcement together in the same sentence... unless he stated my negative reinforcement had a positive impact on the team.

[Chicago 1995]

I think it's easier to say who won't start than who will. And I've identified two players who I'm 99.99% confident will not start.

I think you're probably right about those two.

But who the third guy that sits is key I think.

[Indoor66]

I think it's easier to say who won't start than who will. And I've identified two players who I'm 99.99% confident will not start.

X can't jump and Y can't shoot. Good riddance! 😈😂😎

[WVDUKEFAN]

He's the guy with 5 titles. I trust him. Whatever he decides is best without question in my mind.

[jv001]

I have no idea what is going on in the locker room, but it can't be good with this action.

On thing I have to say...all I've heard for two years is what great talent the freshmen have. Really? I have been patient, waiting to see it, but I simply haven't seen high level talent on the court by anybody on this team beyond Kennard who I think is playing very well over all. It's all been press box hype, and maybe it's gotten to some players heads.

Matt Jones has been solid, as has Amile when he's been healthy. Tatum has shown some nice skill but is playing like freshmen do.

Giles and Bolden just have not shown me anywhere close to a high level ACC quality skill set, yet. Potential has to play at some point.

Allen has talent, but he's been a disappointment this season and just needs to settle down and play. And with young guys sometimes that's easier said than done.

Seasons like this are why I was not prepared to anoint the conference title or national title when all we had seen was star rankings based on potential...I'm too old and have seen this movie before with plenty of teams.

Ya gotta play the games.

Now what was the title to this thread? Yeh that's right K hold meeting. Just another chance for you to pile on the Duke players. I know you get tired of the insults given to your uncheat players, but this is a Duke site. You better hope this action by the G.O.A.T. doesn't get this team on a role. Wouldn't that be a hoot. GoDuke!

[jv001]

My mother would say, "What the hell happened in Social Studies and History?!?!?!" I'd definitely get a lecture, probably a smack on the butt, and likely grounded.

But you know what? My mother's mentality made me work my butt off, which subsequently made me go to Duke. No way in hell I get into Duke without that negative reinforcement.

I agree that positive reinforcement works, but so does negative reinforcement.

Too bad I can't spork you. Must spread some around. That's the way I was brought up as well. I turned out ok. GoDuke!

[Im4howdy]

I'm going to concede the point after this very last post on the subject:

1. I spent 30 years in the military.
2. Group punishment/negative reinforcement was commonplace.
3. It did not always work. In fact, it routinely made things worse.

Bob Green out.

Bob- as a practicing psychologist (mostly with kids and delinquent teens) I understand your point and support your well thought out opinion about the possible downside. My sense though, is that K's education at West Point taught him that everyone is responsible for each other and that it did work and made things better.

[bob blue devil]

My mother would say, "What the hell happened in Social Studies and History?!?!?!" I'd definitely get a lecture, probably a smack on the butt, and likely grounded.

But you know what? My mother's mentality made me work my butt off, which subsequently made me go to Duke. No way in hell I get into Duke without that negative reinforcement.

I agree that positive reinforcement works, but so does negative reinforcement.

yep. think about how many of the best motivate themselves - the old imagined slight. they know they respond best to negative reinforcement. imo, humans are more motivated by their insecurities than their dreams. sorry fairy dust millennials. i've seen it in a professional setting - you tell someone they are doing something good and you see modest results; you tell someone they are not doing something good and you see panicked attention to improvement. of course, you can go to the positive reinforcement well much more liberally than the negative one, so the negative one is usually better reserved for serious issues. i think the current duke team has a serious issue and i'm glad coach took them to task.

[OZ]

To me, two of the most disturbing aspects of this entire situation are these quotes... "He needs to do more than just take away their jerseys," added another source close to the program. "There are bigger issues that need to be addressed."

When asked about the situation on WRAL-FM radio on Thursday, acting coach Jeff Capel said: "Really can't speak on it. Disappointing when stuff that's supposed to stay in the locker room gets out."

If Capel is upset about things being leaked that "should have stayed in the locker room," you can imagine how happy Coach K is. You address your team and someone "LEAKS IT?" Find out who that is and check their hearing; if that's OK buy them a bus ticket home.

Secondly, who is saying "There are bigger issues that need to be addressed?" Someone (a coach... a player?) thinks Coach K left a lot unaddressed. Who might that be; and what might that be?

It just sounds like, even with all that has been said and done, there remains a lot that still needs to be said and done. I'm not sure this matter is settled.

[Clay Feet POF]

I'm not passing judgement simply stating this tactic is a gamble. I've seen lots of failure with group punishment/negative reinforcement.
ight be the exception but Last year Wojo won the Gamble, he took their Jerseys, Locker room and other things away. Made them practice in Plain White T Shirts in a Brooklyn Park (Under the Lights). They won that early season tourney in MSG.

[cato]

yep. think about how many of the best motivate themselves - the old imagined slight. they know they respond best to negative reinforcement. imo, humans are more motivated by their insecurities than their dreams. sorry fairy dust millennials. i've seen it in a professional setting - you tell someone they are doing something good and you see modest results; you tell someone they are not doing something good and you see panicked attention to improvement. of course, you can go to the positive reinforcement well much more liberally than the negative one, so the negative one is usually better reserved for serious issues. i think the current duke team has a serious issue and i'm glad coach took them to task.

YMMV. Certainly mine has. Some respond well if you tell them they are not doing a good job; others, not so much.

[Tripping William]

To me, two of the most disturbing aspects of this entire situation are these quotes... "He needs to do more than just take away their jerseys," added another source close to the program. "There are bigger issues that need to be addressed."

When asked about the situation on WRAL-FM radio on Thursday, acting coach Jeff Capel said: "Really can't speak on it. Disappointing when stuff that's supposed to stay in the locker room gets out."

If Capel is upset about things being leaked that "should have stayed in the locker room," you can imagine how happy Coach K is. You address your team and someone "LEAKS IT?" Find out who that is and check their hearing; if that's OK buy them a bus ticket home.

Secondly, who is saying "There are bigger issues that need to be addressed?" Someone (a coach... a player?) thinks Coach K left a lot unaddressed. Who might that be; and what might that be?

It just sounds like, even with all that has been said and done, there remains a lot that still needs to be said and done. I'm not sure this matter is settled.

Hammer, meet nailhead. This is where I'm at as well.

[Atlanta Duke]

The G-man was on a Charlotte sports talk show this afternoon does not regard this as an unprecedented shocker

Gminski says Duke taking away the gear has probably happened 50 times.
https://twitter.com/BobbyRosinski/status/824725948130095104?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/acc/2017/01/26/duke-players-ban-locker-rooom-apparel-mike-krzyzewski/97099500/

[NM Duke Fan]

To me, two of the most disturbing aspects of this entire situation are these quotes... "He needs to do more than just take away their jerseys," added another source close to the program. "There are bigger issues that need to be addressed."

When asked about the situation on WRAL-FM radio on Thursday, acting coach Jeff Capel said: "Really can't speak on it. Disappointing when stuff that's supposed to stay in the locker room gets out."

If Capel is upset about things being leaked that "should have stayed in the locker room," you can imagine how happy Coach K is. You address your team and someone "LEAKS IT?" Find out who that is and check their hearing; if that's OK buy them a bus ticket home.

Secondly, who is saying "There are bigger issues that need to be addressed?" Someone (a coach... a player?) thinks Coach K left a lot unaddressed. Who might that be; and what might that be?

It just sounds like, even with all that has been said and done, there remains a lot that still needs to be said and done. I'm not sure this matter is settled.

What keeps coming back to me are the very direct words that Luke uttered earlier in the season ... even then they really got my attention regarding team dynamics, etc.

[weezie]

You are (fortunately). he was in the locker room at halftime of the miami game, and was in his office for the state game.

Knew SOMETHING happened. Knew it!



.. Group punishment/negative reinforcement was commonplace.
It did not always work. In fact, it routinely made things worse.


We have no choice but to trust K.


The G-man was on a Charlotte sports talk show this afternoon does not regard this as an unprecedented shocker


Nice to hear something un-blowhardy and reasonable from a former Duke great. Unlike two other extreme blowhardy types.

[jv001]

Knew SOMETHING happened. Knew it!




We have no choice but to trust K.



Nice to hear something un-blowhardy and reasonable from a former Duke great. Unlike two other extreme blowhardy types.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh how I wanted to send you a spork, must spread those little things around. I trust Coach K. He is the all-time leader in college bb wins. GoDuke!

[duketaylor]

Hard for me to understand how K can do this and NOT be on the bench Saturday.

Completely agree, K is back. And pissed. And getting team's attention. Let's move on and do something special!!

[Steven43]

If we finish the season 19-12 are we in the tournament? We need the turnaround now and I think K knows.
Umm.......it doesn't matter if Duke finishes 19-12, 18-13, or 17-14. Remember that little thing called the ACC tournament? Win and you're in.

[AZLA]

Would you mind providing some examples of the positive reinforcement you would use in this situation? Seriously, I would honestly like to know.

Blue ribbons, everyone is a winner

[Neals384]

I agree - I'm assuming K wanted this meeting leaked. If not, the team is going to be seeing a whole new level of anger. Personally, I think these types of meetings should stay in house, but I am not the GOAT so what do I know.

The optimist in me says that two years ago there was something wrong on the team, Rasheed was kicked off, and things turned out pretty well...

I do hope you're not suggesting that someone will get kicked off the team. There's no evidence of that being likely.

[hsheffield]

Mea culpa on the Duke team and opponent, Stray. For some reason, I have a memory of Dunleavy being on the team that was on the receiving end of K's "frustration".

I also thought I remembered Dunleavy being on the team w/ the name tag removal....Or was it removing chairs???

[weezie]

Bob- as a practicing psychologist (mostly with kids and delinquent teens) I understand your point and support your well thought out opinion about the possible downside. My sense though, is that K's education at West Point taught him that everyone is responsible for each other and that it did work and made things better.


Agreed.

Does anyone think that the players all started crying when K lowered the boom? Think maybe one or two of them might have felt bad? That's the point! Stop the sulking and whining and toughen the heck up. Shoot the rock, defend, watch and listen.
And while you're at it, count your blessings. You are where thousands of other players can only dream of being. Shape up!

[duketaylor]

I do hope you're not suggesting that someone will get kicked off the team. There's no evidence of that being likely.

Might help take some of the heat off the stupid obsession with Grayson by some media-types.

Not surprised by this move, at all, as it happens every so often. I'll pass on another example of this as told to a friend of mine through Coach Capel back in the day.

[mkirsh]

This sort of punishment is fairly common, and it often leaks out so I don't think there is any cause for alarm here. And on the comments about the ills of group punishment, they are largely right, but K needs this group to function as a unit, and individual punishment or reward runs counter to his desire to build cohesion. If they don't respond well as a team, they aren't likely to get there this year

[Brockt10]

Umm...it doesn't matter if Duke finishes 19-12, 18-13, or 17-14. Remember that little thing called the ACC tournament? Win and you're in.

While I have the same optimism about winning the acc tournament as you I am also a realist. You think K is going to take his chances on winning a tournament with as much talent as the acc has this year to make the big tournament? He knows what the Wake game means to this team. It's do or die time for this team.

[weezie]

Might help take some of the heat off the stupid obsession with Grayson by some media-types....

Nice thought but not bloody likely!

[wallyman]

Umm....it doesn't matter if Duke finishes 19-12, 18-13, or 17-14. Remember that little thing called the ACC tournament? Win and you're in.

Great! That's all it takes? Pretty sure we can count on winning the ACC Tournament.

[mgtr]

Great! That's all it takes? Pretty sure we can count on winning the ACC Tournament.

Right! Just call us UConn 2, but without the stolen computers.

[OZ]

This sort of punishment is fairly common, and it often leaks out so I don't think there is any cause for alarm here. And on the comments about the ills of group punishment, they are largely right, but K needs this group to function as a unit, and individual punishment or reward runs counter to his desire to build cohesion. If they don't respond well as a team, they aren't likely to get there this year


Why would you not be concerned if this was to be kept within group? Someone among your brothers is not very trustworthy. Capel's reaction suggest the intent was to keep this in-house. He certainly seemed to be pi$$ed about it. I'm also curious as to the intention of the one who leaked it. What did they hope to accomplish?

[rsvman]

It's the lead story on Yahoo news right now, and, as you can imagine, it's going over like a lead balloon.

[Fish80]

This isn't about ACC tournament. Or win loss record. This is about behavior one can control.

[bluedev_92]

I doubt people are more likely to be accepting of group punishment today than they were back then.

I believe that good leaders know when "group punishment" would be beneficial. They also likely know how & when to best combine that with individual discussions. I believe K is an exemplary leader, so I trust he knows this team & has more experience than almost anyone in figuring out how to motivate young athletes.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Too bad I can't spork you. Must spread some around. That's the way I was brought up as well. I turned out ok. GoDuke!

Whoa now! I never said I turned out okay, only that I went to Duke.

:D

[sagegrouse]

To me, two of the most disturbing aspects of this entire situation are these quotes... "He needs to do more than just take away their jerseys," added another source close to the program. "There are bigger issues that need to be addressed."

When asked about the situation on WRAL-FM radio on Thursday, acting coach Jeff Capel said: "Really can't speak on it. Disappointing when stuff that's supposed to stay in the locker room gets out."

If Capel is upset about things being leaked that "should have stayed in the locker room," you can imagine how happy Coach K is. You address your team and someone "LEAKS IT?" Find out who that is and check their hearing; if that's OK buy them a bus ticket home.

Secondly, who is saying "There are bigger issues that need to be addressed?" Someone (a coach... a player?) thinks Coach K left a lot unaddressed. Who might that be; and what might that be?

It just sounds like, even with all that has been said and done, there remains a lot that still needs to be said and done. I'm not sure this matter is settled.
And, of course, the leaker could be Coach K.

[OZ]

And, of course, the leaker could be Coach K.

I'm going to assume that is sarcasm, or perhaps, you must know another Coach K.

[mkirsh]

Why would you not be concerned if this was to be kept within group? Someone among your brothers is not very trustworthy. Capel's reaction suggest the intent was to keep this in-house. He certainly seemed to be pi$$ed about it. I'm also curious as to the intention of the one who leaked it. What did they hope to accomplish?

Obviously I don't have any inside information, but since this type of punishment has happened a few times before, and has also become public a few times before, I don't see this as a breaking omerta. Duke rarely if ever comments publicly about player discipline, so Capel's response seems to me at least to be a way of ending the conversation, and not sure what else he would say. That said, I can't be certain here, and I can see the argument the other way. I think you can see what you want to see in this; and not sure we will ever know the true story.

[alteran]

The low handing fruit would be: starting the five player who are best meeting the coaches standards.

ETA: I am not disagreeing with K's methods. Just pointing to an example of positive reinforcement.
That's Duke's professed Plan A.

Which, I might add, is not working.

[Steven43]

While I have the same optimism about winning the acc tournament as you I am also a realist. You think K is going to take his chances on winning a tournament with as much talent as the acc has this year to make the big tournament? He knows what the Wake game means to this team. It's do or die time for this team.
Certainly, you are correct about Coach. He is not going to take ANY game lightly, whether his team is undefeated or at .500. And no, he won't want to put all his eggs in one basket and bank on winning the ACC tournament. I'm just saying that even if the team does finish poorly at, say, 17-14, there is still another way. And if this team plays to its capabilities winning the ACC tournament is certainly well within reach. Don't forget also that with a mediocre ACC conference and overall record Duke would have much more motivation to win than many of its potential opponents who might already be NCAA tourney locks.

[cato]

That's Duke's professed Plan A.

Which, I might add, is not working.

Well, yeah. That's why it's low hanging fruit. But someone asked for an example of positive reinforcement.

[ncexnyc]

I disagree.

For the record, I'm not a big fan of group punishment as a motivational tool. It backfires more than it works in my experience. During my 30 year U.S. Navy career, group punishment was commonplace especially in the early years and it typically made things worse not better. Lots of folks do not respond favorably to it.

Since this thread has taken on a military theme as we are discussing discipline, let borrow a line from the movie, "A Few Good Men" and say, " I strenuously object."

I'll also whip out my DD214, as it shows I served in the Army from 1972, until I retired in 1992.

This move by Coach K. is exactly what you'd see Drill Instructors do in Basic Training. In Basic they break you down as an individual and force you to think and act as a member of a unit. I'm fairly certain most of us would agree that we haven't seen a lot of cohesive team play on either end of the floor from this group of young men. It's a shame that Coach K. has to go back to square one with this group, but then in Basic Training there were recruits who had to be recycled. Hopefully they'll get the message and respond in a positive manner.

[ricks68]

IMO, I think a lot of posters (and the same lame media we keep hearing from) are missing the point of taking away the jerseys, etc. by Coach K. I think that Coach is appealing to their pride in being a Duke Basketball player, and that he is disappointed in their play as individuals and as a team. When someone that you look up to (Coach K) lets it be known that he is disappointed in you, then you would naturally want to regain his respect by turning your play around. Coach K then reinforced his disappointment by appealing to their pride as representatives of one of the greatest basketball programs in history. IMHO, it is not really a punishment issue, but an opportunity for self and team evaluation. Does anyone on this board seriously think that the players-only meeting afterwards was centered around complaining about losing privileges? I would believe that they are pissed at themselves for what has been happening and want badly to be respected by Coach K again. I also think that the starting line-up will not be based so much on how skillfully you play at practice as much as how hard you play.

They may or may not win games from now on, but I would expect that they are now going to bust their butts trying.

(Unfortunately, I am also going to repeat what I said before the State game, that Amile may not be able to play. No new information, but he was more than just not himself in that game. He is seriously injured.:()

ricks

[LasVegas]

The main issue to me is we just don't have an idea of what the roles are on this team. You look at years past of virtually any national title contender and you could define the roles of each player pretty easily if you followed the team. It just seems that this year roles change on a game to game basis. Heck, even a first half to second half basis. At one point, this team will either overcome all the hardships they have faced, gel together, and become a TEAM.........or they won't. I think you can break it down as simple as that. It all comes back to the fist. You either come together and hit hard or "spirit finger" your way home.

[jv001]

The G-man was on a Charlotte sports talk show this afternoon does not regard this as an unprecedented shocker

Gminski says Duke taking away the gear has probably happened 50 times.
https://twitter.com/BobbyRosinski/status/824725948130095104?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/acc/2017/01/26/duke-players-ban-locker-rooom-apparel-mike-krzyzewski/97099500/

If it has happened fifty times, then it must have happened in fifty years. Now I don't think it's happened every year or has happened two times in any one year. So, what the last seventy years, fifty times. I think the G-Man was a little off on those fifty times. Or maybe he was saying it tongue in cheek. :cool:Go-Duke!

[Indoor66]

IMO, I think a lot of posters (and the same lame media we keep hearing from) are missing the point of taking away the jerseys, etc. by Coach K. I think that Coach is appealing to their pride in being a Duke Basketball player, and that he is disappointed in their play as individuals and as a team. When someone that you look up to (Coach K) lets it be known that he is disappointed in you, then you would naturally want to regain his respect by turning your play around. Coach K then reinforced his disappointment by appealing to their pride as representatives of one of the greatest basketball programs in history. IMHO, it is not really a punishment issue, but an opportunity for self and team evaluation. Does anyone on this board seriously think that the players-only meeting afterwards was centered around complaining about losing privileges? I would believe that they are pissed at themselves for what has been happening and want badly to be respected by Coach K again. I also think that the starting line-up will not be based so much on how skillfully you play at practice as much as how hard you play.

They may or may not win games from now on, but I would expect that they are now going to bust their butts trying.

(Unfortunately, I am also going to repeat what I said before the State game, that Amile may not be able to play. No new information, but he was more than just not himself in that game. He is seriously injured.:()

ricks

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner.

To all others, I, too, am concerned about the horror of it all.

[MarkD83]

The main issue to me is we just don't have an idea of what the roles are on this team. You look at years past of virtually any national title contender and you could define the roles of each player pretty easily if you followed the team. It just seems that this year roles change on a game to game basis. Heck, even a first half to second half basis. At one point, this team will either overcome all the hardships they have faced, gel together, and become a TEAM.....or they won't. I think you can break it down as simple as that. It all comes back to the fist. You either come together and hit hard or "spirit finger" your way home.

I agree! It starts with what has been mentioned ad nauseum on this board, no true point guard. Since the team is at the point of desperation it may be time to just give the ball to Frank J, have Luke or Grayson be off-guard scorers and Matt for D on the perimeter.

Down low playing time is based on defending the pick and roll...the Amile and Marques duo seems to handle this best right now, so the group that starts vs Wake is Frank, Matt, Luke, Marques and Amile.

[weezie]

Swell...the meeting made the Today Show Nitwit Chatty news round up.

[szstark]

IMO, I think a lot of posters (and the same lame media we keep hearing from) are missing the point of taking away the jerseys, etc. by Coach K. I think that Coach is appealing to their pride in being a Duke Basketball player, and that he is disappointed in their play as individuals and as a team. When someone that you look up to (Coach K) lets it be known that he is disappointed in you, then you would naturally want to regain his respect by turning your play around. Coach K then reinforced his disappointment by appealing to their pride as representatives of one of the greatest basketball programs in history. IMHO, it is not really a punishment issue, but an opportunity for self and team evaluation. Does anyone on this board seriously think that the players-only meeting afterwards was centered around complaining about losing privileges? I would believe that they are pissed at themselves for what has been happening and want badly to be respected by Coach K again. I also think that the starting line-up will not be based so much on how skillfully you play at practice as much as how hard you play.

They may or may not win games from now on, but I would expect that they are now going to bust their butts trying.


ricks

I agree with you. I also believe that one of his major points must have been that we are not playing as a team and maybe this "team punishment" will help them realize they are all in this together.

[Jeffrey]

And, of course, the leaker could be Coach K.

That's very possible and frequently successful. The pride button usually works.

[Sir Stealth]

My main takeaway from this story is to be in awe of the media hype and attention that Duke basketball gets in 2017. As has been discussed, while not a "50 times" kind of occurrence, this is hardly an unprecedented action for K to take when the team is not living up to standard. Every step taken by Grayson gets broken down like the Zapruder film on the front page of ESPN.com. This particular team admittedly still has a collection of talent that merits attention even though it's performance has been fringe Top 25 at best, and no doubt it's been a whacky season, but seeing every detail as a front page national sports story is still pretty wild.

[mgtr]

My main takeaway from this story is to be in awe of the media hype and attention that Duke basketball gets in 2017. As has been discussed, while not a "50 times" kind of occurrence, this is hardly an unprecedented action for K to take when the team is not living up to standard. Every step taken by Grayson gets broken down like the Zapruder film on the front page of ESPN.com. This particular team admittedly still has a collection of talent that merits attention even though it's performance has been fringe Top 25 at best, and no doubt it's been a whacky season, but seeing every detail as a front page national sports story is still pretty wild.

This is a very good point. I wonder if this junk on GA keeps up, the reference in the future will be "as analyzed as a Grayson Allen trip?"

[Jeffrey]

....seeing every detail as a front page national sports story is still pretty wild.

.... and, IMO, very valuable!

[bluenorth]

IMO, I think a lot of posters (and the same lame media we keep hearing from) are missing the point of taking away the jerseys, etc. by Coach K. I think that Coach is appealing to their pride in being a Duke Basketball player, and that he is disappointed in their play as individuals and as a team. When someone that you look up to (Coach K) lets it be known that he is disappointed in you, then you would naturally want to regain his respect by turning your play around. Coach K then reinforced his disappointment by appealing to their pride as representatives of one of the greatest basketball programs in history. IMHO, it is not really a punishment issue, but an opportunity for self and team evaluation. Does anyone on this board seriously think that the players-only meeting afterwards was centered around complaining about losing privileges? I would believe that they are pissed at themselves for what has been happening and want badly to be respected by Coach K again. I also think that the starting line-up will not be based so much on how skillfully you play at practice as much as how hard you play.

They may or may not win games from now on, but I would expect that they are now going to bust their butts trying.

(Unfortunately, I am also going to repeat what I said before the State game, that Amile may not be able to play. No new information, but he was more than just not himself in that game. He is seriously injured.:()

ricks

I hope that Amile is not hurt too badly. I agree that he was not operating at 100% in the last game. But I do think that he'll play. Time is running out on his college career, and his leadership is needed. Unless he's wearing a boot, I expect to see him on the floor.

As far as the loss of privileges goes, I like the move. Sometimes coaching and/or leadership demands a bit of acting. A group, whether it's employees or players, that hears the same voice and tone all the time tends to tune out. Then the leader needs to change things up. Whatever the staff had been doing wasn't working, so this change in tone just may have the desired effect. I guess we'll know if the offence is more controlled and all five players sprint back on D.

[TruBlu]

I don't remember for sure, but in previous instances of Coach K's "motivational" actions, at least some of them were made public. Even if not, this is not something that could not be kept secret for long.

Astute students, employees, reporters, spies, etc. would soon notice that something was not proceeding normally as far as dress code, locker room use, and practice uniforms.

Just curious, but wondering whether the uniforms for the WF game will be Duke uniforms. . . complete with player names.

[duketaylor]

Does Duke come out tomorrow afternoon with no names on the back of their jersey? Very possible, IMO.

[duke79]

I don't remember for sure, but in previous instances of Coach K's "motivational" actions, at least some of them were made public. Even if not, this is not something that could not be kept secret for long.

Astute students, employees, reporters, spies, etc. would soon notice that something was not proceeding normally as far as dress code, locker room use, and practice uniforms.

Just curious, but wondering whether the uniforms for the WF game will be Duke uniforms. . . complete with player names.

This may have been answered already (I haven't read the whole thread), but what exactly does it mean that the players can't use the locker room (they have to dress for practice in the Card Gym locker room?) and they can't wear Blue Devil apparel? They can't wear a "Duke" sweatshirt on campus? They can't wear anything that says "Duke" on it when practicing? Etc.

[Steven43]

Great! That's all it takes? Pretty sure we can count on winning the ACC Tournament.
Wow, thank you so much, Wallyman! Sarcasm is very welcome here. Thanks again, buddy. 😝

Now let's go win this Wake game.

[Steven43]

Right! Just call us UConn 2, but without the stolen computers.

Now THAT was funny. I never thought I'd see a more renegade program than UConn under evil Calhoun (though he was a damn good coach). And then UNC's systematic cheating over more than two decades has come along and made sometime scandalous and dirty programs like UConn, Kentucky and Kansas seem like innocent babes in the woods. Finally, UNC is best at something!

[davekay1971]

I'm not a real believer that negative reinforcement is a great motivator in general. I'm more of a believer that people usually respond to positive reinforcement.

On the other hand, as my father-in-law says, with the profound wisdom typical of rural North Carolina guys who stopped school to start truck driving at an early age, "Every once in a while, some son of a (reacted) just needs to get his (euphemism for donkey) kicked."

[sagegrouse]

That's very possible and frequently successful. The pride button usually works.

Coach K as leaker? It changes the topic from "Grayson Allen trips."

[devildeac]

Coach K as leaker? It changes the topic from "Grayson Allen trips."

Guess maybe it's not called wiKi leaks for nothing. :o

[ricks68]

Guess maybe it's not called wiKi leaks for nothing. :o

I think you need to spend more time with your patients.😜

ricks

[devildeac]

I think you need to spend more time with your patients.��

ricks

I had just finished AM clinic when I posted that :p.

No sporks for you! :p

[ricks68]

I had just finished AM clinic when I posted that :p.

No sporks for you! :p

And all the other posts all day prior to that one post?😜😜

(Try one of the new beers I brought you tonight and give us a report.)

ricks

[Indoor66]

I think you need to spend more time with your patients.😜

ricks

Couldn't s.p.o.r.k. a great post! 😂

[ricks68]

Couldn't s.p.o.r.k. a great post! 😂

Thanks. You've done enough already.

ricks

[devildeac]

And all the other posts all day prior to that one post?����

(Try one of the new beers I brought you tonight and give us a report.)

ricks

1. Who are you, my post-mother? :rolleyes:

2. Not this weekend-on call-no tasting. Watch out Monday night though. :o

3. I did divide a w00tstout over the last 2 night and will post later today when not seeing patients or contemplating cantankerous posts from Indoor66.
:p

[ricks68]

1. Who are you, my post-mother? :rolleyes:

2. Not this weekend-on call-no tasting. Watch out Monday night though. :o

3. I did divide a w00tstout over the last 2 night and will post later today when not seeing patients or contemplating cantankerous posts from Indoor66.
:p

Good laughs are always appreciated. Thanks, guys.😊

ricks

[Indoor66]

1. Who are you, my post-mother? :rolleyes:

2. Not this weekend-on call-no tasting. Watch out Monday night though. :o

3. I did divide a w00tstout over the last 2 night and will post later today when not seeing patients or contemplating cantankerous posts from Indoor66.
:p

I am cantankerous with all my Cardiologists. 😁😈😎

[Saratoga2]

Having read the 9 pages of this thread, I feel that there is very little actually known.

Here's what I take from the threads
1. Coach K called a meeting with the players and presumably his coaches at his home.
2. He reportedly took away some privileges from his players.
3. A minor amount of information about the meeting leaked out and involved locker room privileges.

My take on this is a follows:

Item 1 Coach K either thought he should not make the trip to the basketball facility for health reasons, he thought the setting at his home was a more dramatic and change of pace way of talking to the players or perhaps he thought the home would be more secure from leaks.

Item 2/3 While we have heard the locker story and coach Capel sort of verified it by regretting the leak, we did not hear about the more important parts of the conversation he had with the team. What he said has only been raised as conjecture on this site.

I would guess this team has the talent to be competitive in the ACC and coach K doesn't believe it has lived up to it's talent level. Is it because the team doesn't try hard enough, is too inexperienced, lacks a true point guard, has injuries or lacks cohesiveness?

It is probably some of each of these although I have never believed in the Rah Rah school of coaching, meaning if you only try harder you will succeed. I believe playing smarter will will every time if the talent is equal.

A number of players are inexperienced and that is obvious every time we watch them play. But we have recently seen a team with key OADs that did very well. At any rate, game by game the experience is being gained.

Our lack of an experienced and talented playmaking PG has hurt us with TO's, lack of hitting open players, slow developing offensive situations. But we went to Jon Scheyer in the past and overcame a similar situation.

Yes, we have and still have injuries which no doubt have slowed development of the team. That is a hazard of the game but we have a lot more depth this year to get us through these rough periods.

The lack of cohesiveness seems to stand out as one of our key problems. Playing together as a team and puttng individual objectives on the back burner in favor of team results seems to be lacking on the team at times. Perhaps coach Capel/K can address this in the upcoming game.

I don't think any of us know what the coaches have in mind for Wake and we will need to await game time to get a better understanding of the direction. Lets hope we see an attempt to make some improvements in how hard we try and how smart we play, we deal with the experience issue and find a way to improve our point guard play but most importantly see the team play together with a single objective of winning the game.

[Indoor66]

Having read the 9 pages of this thread, I feel that there is very little actually known.

Here's what I take from the threads
1. Coach K called a meeting with the players and presumably his coaches at his home.
2. He reportedly took away some privileges from his players.
3. A minor amount of information about the meeting leaked out and involved locker room privileges.

My take on this is a follows:

Item 1 Coach K either thought he should not make the trip to the basketball facility for health reasons, he thought the setting at his home was a more dramatic and change of pace way of talking to the players or perhaps he thought the home would be more secure from leaks.

Item 2/3 While we have heard the locker story and coach Capel sort of verified it by regretting the leak, we did not hear about the more important parts of the conversation he had with the team. What he said has only been raised as conjecture on this site.

I would guess this team has the talent to be competitive in the ACC and coach K doesn't believe it has lived up to it's talent level. Is it because the team doesn't try hard enough, is too inexperienced, lacks a true point guard, has injuries or lacks cohesiveness?

It is probably some of each of these although I have never believed in the Rah Rah school of coaching, meaning if you only try harder you will succeed. I believe playing smarter will will every time if the talent is equal.

A number of players are inexperienced and that is obvious every time we watch them play. But we have recently seen a team with key OADs that did very well. At any rate, game by game the experience is being gained.

Our lack of an experienced and talented playmaking PG has hurt us with TO's, lack of hitting open players, slow developing offensive situations. But we went to Jon Scheyer in the past and overcame a similar situation.

Yes, we have and still have injuries which no doubt have slowed development of the team. That is a hazard of the game but we have a lot more depth this year to get us through these rough periods.

The lack of cohesiveness seems to stand out as one of our key problems. Playing together as a team and puttng individual objectives on the back burner in favor of team results seems to be lacking on the team at times. Perhaps coach Capel/K can address this in the upcoming game.

I don't think any of us know what the coaches have in mind for Wake and we will need to await game time to get a better understanding of the direction. Lets hope we see an attempt to make some improvements in how hard we try and how smart we play, we deal with the experience issue and find a way to improve our point guard play but most importantly see the team play together with a single objective of winning the game.

That was a lot of conjecture.

[fan345678]

But we have recently seen a team with key OADs that did very well.

The difference is that Jones and Winslow did not go into the season-- and perhaps not even the 2015 NCAA tournament-- knowing that they would be OADs. They became OADs because they played their best basketball during the team's biggest moments.

[53n206]

Having read the 9 pages of this thread, I feel that there is very little actually known.

Here's what I take from the threads
1. Coach K called a meeting with the players and presumably his coaches at his home.
2. He reportedly took away some privileges from his players.
3. A minor amount of information about the meeting leaked out and involved locker room privileges.

My take on this is a follows:

Item 1 Coach K either thought he should not make the trip to the basketball facility for health reasons, he thought the setting at his home was a more dramatic and change of pace way of talking to the players or perhaps he thought the home would be more secure from leaks.

Item 2/3 While we have heard the locker story and coach Capel sort of verified it by regretting the leak, we did not hear about the more important parts of the conversation he had with the team. What he said has only been raised as conjecture on this site.

I would guess this team has the talent to be competitive in the ACC and coach K doesn't believe it has lived up to it's talent level. Is it because the team doesn't try hard enough, is too inexperienced, lacks a true point guard, has injuries or lacks cohesiveness?

It is probably some of each of these although I have never believed in the Rah Rah school of coaching, meaning if you only try harder you will succeed. I believe playing smarter will will every time if the talent is equal.

A number of players are inexperienced and that is obvious every time we watch them play. But we have recently seen a team with key OADs that did very well. At any rate, game by game the experience is being gained.

Our lack of an experienced and talented playmaking PG has hurt us with TO's, lack of hitting open players, slow developing offensive situations. But we went to Jon Scheyer in the past and overcame a similar situation.

Yes, we have and still have injuries which no doubt have slowed development of the team. That is a hazard of the game but we have a lot more depth this year to get us through these rough periods.

The lack of cohesiveness seems to stand out as one of our key problems. Playing together as a team and puttng individual objectives on the back burner in favor of team results seems to be lacking on the team at times. Perhaps coach Capel/K can address this in the upcoming game.

I don't think any of us know what the coaches have in mind for Wake and we will need to await game time to get a better understanding of the direction. Lets hope we see an attempt to make some improvements in how hard we try and how smart we play, we deal with the experience issue and find a way to improve our point guard play but most importantly see the team play together with a single objective of winning the game.

I wonder if Coach K's feelings and reactions to our recent losses may be affected by his desire to have Coach Capel succeed. By succeeding I mean that he will favorably Impress those who choose Coach K successor. A number of losses with what seems to be good talent may not be in Coach Cables favor. Just wondering.

[sagegrouse]

That was a lot of conjecture.

You have just captured the essence of the internet.

[Jeffrey]

Coach K as leaker? It changes the topic from "Grayson Allen trips."

.... and, hits the public pride button, instead of the private one. A public spanking can really wake kids up.

[Jeffrey]

I think you need to spend more time with your patients.😜

ricks

Not possible.... the authorization form was denied.

[Kedsy]

Our lack of an experienced and talented playmaking PG has hurt us with TO's...

Why do people say stuff like this? Right now Duke has the 45th fewest turnovers in the country, which is hardly liability territory. Our number of turnovers per possession (0.1647) is almost exactly the same as in 2015 (0.1630) and 2010 (0.1654). From which I conclude that our "lack of an experienced and talented playmaking PG" hasn't "hurt us with TO's" at all. Not a bit.

[alteran]

Why do people say stuff like this? Right now Duke has the 45th fewest turnovers in the country, which is hardly liability territory. Our number of turnovers per possession (0.1647) is almost exactly the same as in 2015 (0.1630) and 2010 (0.1654). From which I conclude that our "lack of an experienced and talented playmaking PG" hasn't "hurt us with TO's" at all. Not a bit.

No dog in this fight, but I keep reading that our team assists are very low. Do your stats confirm or refute that?

If it's true-- and I'm sure hearing it a lot-- it probably explains the comment.

[CDu]

No dog in this fight, but I keep reading that our team assists are very low. Do your stats confirm or refute that?

If it's true-- and I'm sure hearing it a lot-- it probably explains the comment.

Right. One could argue that - despite a multitude of capable scorers - our offense isn't nearly as efficient as it should be. And one could certainly make the argument that the reason why is the lack of a PG. But that has more to do with not getting efficient enough shots rather than too many turnovers.

[Kedsy]

No dog in this fight, but I keep reading that our team assists are very low. Do your stats confirm or refute that?

If it's true-- and I'm sure hearing it a lot-- it probably explains the comment.


Right. One could argue that - despite a multitude of capable scorers - our offense isn't nearly as efficient as it should be. And one could certainly make the argument that the reason why is the lack of a PG. But that has more to do with not getting efficient enough shots rather than too many turnovers.

CDu is right. Here are the numbers for the three seasons:



Year Poss TOs Assts TO/poss A/poss A/to ratio
2015 2581.7 421 588 0.163 0.228 1.397
2010 2660 440 555 0.165 0.209 1.261
2017 1433.3 236 273 0.165 0.190 1.157


The difference between 2015 A/poss and 2017 A/poss comes out to about 2.5 assists per game. The difference between 2010 A/poss and 2017 A/poss is about 1.3 assists per game. Significant, but I'm not sure how much practical difference there is, especially between 2010 and 2017.

I would also note that (a) a relative lack of assists just means you're running a different kind of offense; efficiency (points per possession) is all that should matter (and, yes, our offensive efficiency has been down lately, but I don't see any clear evidence that it's due to not having a "true" PG; it might be, or it might not); and (b) in my previous post I was simply responding to the erroneous notion that our "lack" of a true PG hurt us because of excessive turnovers, which is clearly untrue. I did not make a blanket argument that there is no difference between having a pass-first PG and not having one.

[Fish80]

So, since it's a little chilly today, when I got home I put on a sweatshirt. A very comfortable well broken in Duke sweatshirt. And then it hit me.

Should I be wearing Duke clothes? Or does the ban apply to me too?

[NSDukeFan]

So, since it's a little chilly today, when I got home I put on a sweatshirt. A very comfortable well broken in Duke sweatshirt. And then it hit me.

Should I be wearing Duke clothes? Or does the ban apply to me too?

I feel your posts have been worthy of the board and you should be able to continue to wear the gear. IMO

[Brockt10]

So, since it's a little chilly today, when I got home I put on a sweatshirt. A very comfortable well broken in Duke sweatshirt. And then it hit me.

Should I be wearing Duke clothes? Or does the ban apply to me too?

As a Duke fan relocated to Atlanta, I am currently wearing my (embarassingly new) falcons sweats for this exact reason (not because of the superbowl)... but I feel dirty.

[Indoor66]

As a Duke fan relocated to Atlanta I am currently wearing my (embarassingly new) falcons sweats for this exact reason (not because of the superbowl)... but I feel dirty.

Nah. Falcons gear is OK for a while. Go Falcons, Beat the Cheats

[mgtr]

I wore my Duke hat in public all day, but I kept my eyes open for possible "hat police."

[Brockt10]

Nah. Falcons gear is OK for a while. Go Falcons, Beat the Cheats

I also have a singler jersey i bought in 2010 for the Duke unc game and had it on for every game thereafter. The team went undefeated and we won the national championship. I retired the jersey and it currently hangs in my man cave. It's is referred to by me and my wife as "the unbeatable." Just let me know when you guys want me to start wearing it and we are sure to win all games from there on out.

[Fish80]

You have just captured the essence of the internet.

Also, when is Indoor going to give the internet it's essence back? We cannot thrive with an essence-less internet.

Maybe that's part of the punishment too.

[Indoor66]

also, when is indoor going to give the internet it's essence back? We cannot thrive with an essence-less internet.

Maybe that's part of the punishment too.

n e v e r 😁😈😎

[Wheat/"/"/"]

IMO, I think a lot of posters (and the same lame media we keep hearing from) are missing the point of taking away the jerseys, etc. by Coach K. I think that Coach is appealing to their pride in being a Duke Basketball player, and that he is disappointed in their play as individuals and as a team. When someone that you look up to (Coach K) lets it be known that he is disappointed in you, then you would naturally want to regain his respect by turning your play around. Coach K then reinforced his disappointment by appealing to their pride as representatives of one of the greatest basketball programs in history. IMHO, it is not really a punishment issue, but an opportunity for self and team evaluation. Does anyone on this board seriously think that the players-only meeting afterwards was centered around complaining about losing privileges? I would believe that they are pissed at themselves for what has been happening and want badly to be respected by Coach K again. I also think that the starting line-up will not be based so much on how skillfully you play at practice as much as how hard you play.

They may or may not win games from now on, but I would expect that they are now going to bust their butts trying.

(Unfortunately, I am also going to repeat what I said before the State game, that Amile may not be able to play. No new information, but he was more than just not himself in that game. He is seriously injured.:()

ricks

I've followed Duke basketball for a long time and I can never recall coach K doing anything like this before. If former players are saying it's happened before, then I'm sure it has, but is this the first time it's become public?

A few on this board would be screaming how this would be "throwing the team under the bus" if 'Ol Roy drew the line like coach K evidently has...I'd just say it's a coach coaching.

[Karl Beem]

Nah. Falcons gear is OK for a while. Go Falcons, Beat the Cheats

They're not playing UNC.

[bluedev_92]

I've followed Duke basketball for a long time and I can never recall coach K doing anything like this before. If former players are saying it's happened before, then I'm sure it has, but is this the first time it's become public?

A few on this board would be screaming how this would be "throwing the team under the bus" if 'Ol Roy drew the line like coach K evidently has...I'd just say it's a coach coaching.

Not sure how long you've been following, but I definitely remember stories like this. I think one of the other posters recounted a story earlier that I remembered as well - with players names being taken off of lockers, etc...

[Ultrarunner]

I've followed Duke basketball for a long time and I can never recall coach K doing anything like this before. If former players are saying it's happened before, then I'm sure it has, but is this the first time it's become public?

A few on this board would be screaming how this would be "throwing the team under the bus" if 'Ol Roy drew the line like coach K evidently has...I'd just say it's a coach coaching.

First, on why this becomes public now - welcome to the age of the internet.

Second, comparing K and Roy on the 'under the bus' scenario is almost as valid as comparing their team's respective academic performances for the last two decades.

[weezie]

I also have a singler jersey i bought in 2010 for the Duke unc game and had it on for every game thereafter. The team went undefeated and we won the national championship. I retired the jersey and it currently hangs in my man cave. It's is referred to by me and my wife as "the unbeatable." Just let me know when you guys want me to start wearing it and we are sure to win all games from there on out.

Hop to it! Like we have to ask?!

[Brockt10]

Hop to it! Like we have to ask?!

I will wear it for the Wake game. I hope you all understand the potential consequences. If we lose I will have to burn it in a beautiful ceremony. I will lose a piece of myself and my marriage. All for the better good. Let's go DUKE!!!

[johnb]

I'm unimpressed. The team with the most elite talent in the country has been disappointing because of injuries, an overreliance on freshmen, the lack of a recruited point guard, and K's injury. Capel is the coach, and, at exactly the same time as it's announced that his dad is going to die of a really tough illness, K decides to step in and strong arm one of his motivational techniques. I'm not at practice, but these guys seem full of effort. I think K screwed up (to protect Capel, his legacy?), even if they go on a long win streak.

[duke80]

I'm unimpressed. The team with the most elite talent in the country has been disappointing because of injuries, an overreliance on freshmen, the lack of a recruited point guard, and K's injury. Capel is the coach, and, at exactly the same time as it's announced that his dad is going to die of a really tough illness, K decides to step in and strong arm one of his motivational techniques. I'm not at practice, but these guys seem full of effort. I think K screwed up (to protect Capel, his legacy?), even if they go on a long win streak.

I was following you until the last sentence. Isn't winning the point of his statement to the team? This is exactly what he is challenging, the lack of team effort/team pride, however you want to put it. The very fact that reportedly the team met right after is a sign that his 'speech' had an effect. What would you have him do, and by that I mean all the coaches. I for one am glad that they are not wringing their hands but moving forward with with the approach that makes Duke basketball the best team it can be. After all is said and done, it is about excelling and unified effort. It is up to the team to find this for themselves, or not. It is up to the coach to put the right players out there with the best shot at accomplishing the team's goals. I don't have a problem with demanding excellence. We will see what happens tomorrow. Nuff said.

[duketaylor]

Wheat, this has happened several times that I'm aware of, some has been documented here, but I don't have time to find it. I know Capel had it happen when he was playing and at least a few other times. Nothing new, just the first time that I know of that it hit mainstream media. I was glad to hear of this; need to wake some players up to what's expected of them. Demanded of them. I sincerely hope Duke players have no names on the back of their jerseys tomorrow.

[Neals384]

I'm unimpressed. The team with the most elite talent in the country has been disappointing because of injuries, an overreliance on freshmen, the lack of a recruited point guard, and K's injury. Capel is the coach, and, at exactly the same time as it's announced that his dad is going to die of a really tough illness, K decides to step in and strong arm one of his motivational techniques. I'm not at practice, but these guys seem full of effort. I think K screwed up (to protect Capel, his legacy?), even if they go on a long win streak.

I've been watching different games than you. "These guys seem full of effort" doesn't remotely describe what I've been seeing. Think of Grayson in the championship game. Has anyone on the team (not just Grayson) come remotely close to that level of hustle? I think not. K wants results, and with total buy-in, this team has the talent to deliver.

[Steven43]

I'm unimpressed. The team with the most elite talent in the country has been disappointing because of injuries, an overreliance on freshmen, the lack of a recruited point guard, and K's injury. Capel is the coach, and, at exactly the same time as it's announced that his dad is going to die of a really tough illness, K decides to step in and strong arm one of his motivational techniques. I'm not at practice, but these guys seem full of effort. I think K screwed up (to protect Capel, his legacy?), even if they go on a long win streak.

Don't mean to be rude, but I'm not sure what the point of your post is. What does Jeff Capel's father have to do with Coach K using motivational techniques completely unrelated to said father? And 'these guys seem full of effort'? I've seen some loafing on defense, quite a bit of jogging up the court, too much hero ball, many lost rebounds, and yes, some strong effort by most of the players most of the time. Let's see how the Wake game goes. It's a can't miss game for all Duke fans, as the season might just hang in the balance.

[WVDUKEFAN]

I've been watching different games than you. "These guys seem full of effort" doesn't remotely describe what I've been seeing. Think of Grayson in the championship game. Has anyone on the team (not just Grayson) come remotely close to that level of hustle? I think not. K wants results, and with total buy-in, this team has the talent to deliver.

I totally agree.

[NM Duke Fan]

Here is a quote I saved long ago from Coach K himself.

What could be said to this year's edition is, if the shoe fits, wear it! How much of these 5 qualities will we witness today and the rest of the season?

“There are five fundamental qualities that make every team great: communication, trust, collective responsibility, caring and pride. I like to think of each as a separate finger on the fist. Any one individually is important. But all of them together are unbeatable.”

[ricks68]

Here is a quote I saved long ago from Coach K himself.

What could be said to this year's edition is, if the shoe fits, wear it! How much of these 5 qualities will we witness today and the rest of the season?

“There are five fundamental qualities that make every team great: communication, trust, collective responsibility, caring and pride. I like to think of each as a separate finger on the fist. Any one individually is important. But all of them together are unbeatable.”

WORD. Post of the season, in my book.

ricks

[BandAlum83]

As a Duke fan relocated to Atlanta, I am currently wearing my (embarassingly new) falcons sweats for this exact reason (not because of the superbowl)... but I feel dirty.

That's the "Dirty Bird" effect!

Go Falcons! Rise up!!!

[BandAlum83]

I also have a singler jersey i bought in 2010 for the Duke unc game and had it on for every game thereafter. The team went undefeated and we won the national championship. I retired the jersey and it currently hangs in my man cave. It's is referred to by me and my wife as "the unbeatable." Just let me know when you guys want me to start wearing it and we are sure to win all games from there on out.

In case of emergency, break glass....

[Edouble]

Don't mean to be rude, but I'm not sure what the point of your post is. What does Jeff Capel's father have to do with Coach K using motivational techniques completely unrelated to said father? And 'these guys seem full of effort'? I've seen some loafing on defense, quite a bit of jogging up the court, too much hero ball, many lost rebounds, and yes, some strong effort by most of the players most of the time. Let's see how the Wake game goes. It's a can't miss game for all Duke fans, as the season might just hang in the balance.

I bolded the above, as I am in complete agreement.

I think this is the crux of the problem with this team and the reason that so many posters have varying opinions on the effort level this year. "Most" isn't going to get it done, particularly in this year's ACC.

This team has not had the chance to grow at the pace of a normal season, due to the unbelievable number of injuries, but now that we are all together and pretty much healthy, we need maximum effort by all of our guys all of the time.

[Doria]

I bolded the above, as I am in complete agreement.

I think this is the crux of the problem with this team and the reason that so many posters have varying opinions on the effort level this year. "Most" isn't going to get it done, particularly in this year's ACC.

This team has not had the chance to grow at the pace of a normal season, due to the unbelievable number of injuries, but now that we are all together and pretty much healthy, we need maximum effort by all of our guys all of the time.

As to effort, I do think we have played hard at times, but what's frustrating to me is that, for the past 6 weeks, I haven't seen one complete game of effort.

[IrishDevil]

I'm unimpressed. The team with the most elite talent in the country has been disappointing because of injuries, an overreliance on freshmen, the lack of a recruited point guard, and K's injury. Capel is the coach, and, at exactly the same time as it's announced that his dad is going to die of a really tough illness, K decides to step in and strong arm one of his motivational techniques. I'm not at practice, but these guys seem full of effort. I think K screwed up (to protect Capel, his legacy?), even if they go on a long win streak.



Don't mean to be rude, but I'm not sure what the point of your post is. What does Jeff Capel's father have to do with Coach K using motivational techniques completely unrelated to said father? And 'these guys seem full of effort'? I've seen some loafing on defense, quite a bit of jogging up the court, too much hero ball, many lost rebounds, and yes, some strong effort by most of the players most of the time. Let's see how the Wake game goes. It's a can't miss game for all Duke fans, as the season might just hang in the balance.


I bolded the above, as I am in complete agreement.

I think this is the crux of the problem with this team and the reason that so many posters have varying opinions on the effort level this year. "Most" isn't going to get it done, particularly in this year's ACC.

This team has not had the chance to grow at the pace of a normal season, due to the unbelievable number of injuries, but now that we are all together and pretty much healthy, we need maximum effort by all of our guys all of the time.

I agree that this is the crux, but I think there is more to it than this, particularly in the discussion of K's meeting with the team. While it is certainly distasteful to fans to see our team lose while not giving total effort, as Edouble acknowledges, recall that Coach K has said repeatedly that Duke basketball is about standards. Whether the ACC is up or down, whether Duke is winning or losing, K demands a certain kind of basketball, and that includes 100% effort, not loafing, jogging, etc. So yes, we want them to at least lose with effort if they must lose, but K wants them to play basketball the Duke way, regardless of the result, and IMO that has more to do with this meeting than the W-L record to date.