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JBDuke
01-23-2017, 09:15 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2017, 09:16 PM
Ship not righted.

Still plenty of season left. But I can't say that I'm not disappointed thus far.

DinoDuke
01-23-2017, 09:16 PM
A long season just got longer

gocanes0506
01-23-2017, 09:16 PM
Tatum does it again. So much talent...

This group of guys has so much talent but they aren't a team. Cant gaurd tge pick and roll, don't communicate, and play hero ball. Tough to watch.

Coballs
01-23-2017, 09:16 PM
That last play was the epitome of this entire season. What a mess!

FerryFor50
01-23-2017, 09:16 PM
Sigh. Missed FTs. Sloppy offense late in the game. And Dennis Smith is really good.

State has had some of the same problems Duke has; tons of talent, can't seem to put it together consistently. Tonight, they were fortunate that Smith was on.

Still some season left, but the window is closing.

cruxer
01-23-2017, 09:17 PM
Very disappointing execution at the end of each half. So many missed bunnies and open shots. No Bolden during the decisive run and we got killed on pick and roll.

Dr. Rosenrosen
01-23-2017, 09:17 PM
Capel audition going... poorly. I'm legitimately surprised.

curtis325
01-23-2017, 09:17 PM
Smith went off. Duke couldn't answer. Next play.

Karl Beem
01-23-2017, 09:18 PM
Realize that these last 2 teams are bad - as are we.

Coballs
01-23-2017, 09:18 PM
Smith went off. Duke couldn't answer. Next play.

*Next season

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2017, 09:18 PM
Capel audition going... poorly. I'm legitimately surprised.

Ugh. Me too.

Smith is by far the best player on that court. State is lucky to have him.

FerryFor50
01-23-2017, 09:19 PM
Dennis Smith, 35% 3pt shooter goes 8-15 from 3. A lot were well defended.

Indoor66
01-23-2017, 09:19 PM
Hero ball at the end.

gillmic
01-23-2017, 09:20 PM
What is the +/- with Tatum on the floor?

cptnflash
01-23-2017, 09:20 PM
Luckily the schedule gets a lot harder from here on out.

Oh wait...

pamtar
01-23-2017, 09:20 PM
Grayson is not a point guard. He slows us down and kills momentum. His shooting is poor and his defense is questionable. Time to start Frank.

sbroc012
01-23-2017, 09:20 PM
Hate to be this guy....but maybe Tatum was overrated a tad coming into this season. He's 6'8" and plays below the rim and doesn't finish well around the rim because of it. Very frustrating to watch.

heyman25
01-23-2017, 09:21 PM
Tatum does it again. So much talent...

This group of guys has so much talent but they aren't a team. Cant gaurd tge pick and roll, don't communicate, and play hero ball. Tough to watch.

One thing I must say about Tatum loads of talent,but Gets an F on finishing. How many driving layups did he miss?His defense was weak as well. Embarrassing ball handle at end of the game.:mad:

arnie
01-23-2017, 09:21 PM
Sigh. Missed FTs. Sloppy offense late in the game. And Dennis Smith is really good.

State has had some of the same problems Duke has; tons of talent, can't seem to put it together consistently. Tonight, they were fortunate that Smith was on.

Still some season left, but the window is closing.

No indications that this team can or will play solid defense and making the NCAA tourney is very iffy at this point. Absolutely must beat Wake this weekend - but don't know that they can.

cruxer
01-23-2017, 09:21 PM
Hero ball at the end.

If we'd made the hero ball layups we'd have won. Each missed one was like a twofer since Jayson would inevitably not make it down to the defensive end.

Bluedog
01-23-2017, 09:22 PM
Dennis Smith, 35% 3pt shooter goes 8-15 from 3. A lot were well defended.

He went 8-15 from the free throw line. 4-6 from three.

ipatent
01-23-2017, 09:22 PM
The defense is porous and everything is one on one on offense. A good opposing point guard and a few bigs who can convert will give this team fits. They'll get better as they gain experience together, but they're not going far in March unless the assist to field goal ratio gets a lot better.

FerryFor50
01-23-2017, 09:22 PM
One thing I must say about Tatum loads of talent,but Gets an F on finishing. How many driving layups did he miss?His defense was weak as well. Embarrassing ball handle at end of the game.:mad:

Personally wish Frank had gotten the ball at the end. He has the speed and handle to get to the rim to finish.

Kjeffrey
01-23-2017, 09:22 PM
Ugh. Me too.

Smith is by far the best player on that court. State is lucky to have him.

While watching the game my 11 year old son asked, "Why did Smith go to NC State? Doesn't he want to play for a good team?" I thought it was a little funny at the time. Not so funny now.

fuse
01-23-2017, 09:22 PM
Bewildering.

Beyond getting Bootsied by Dennis Smith, Tatum missed a lot of "gimmees" and there were at least two plays where he didn't even bother to get back on defense.

People that want to blame Capel, whatever. The team has to play.
I'd like to believe we are a (much) better team than State.
Didn't show it tonight.

Grumpy after a loss? Absolutely.
Starting to think the whole "we're just in October" mentality really is translating to the reality that this team may never gel and realize its potential.

Have to wonder who is more frustrated- the coaches, the team, or the fans.
This season its hard to predict which Duke team is going to show up.

AtlBluRew
01-23-2017, 09:23 PM
On the plus side, I've never before heard Bilas call a game without talking about how good the Tarheels are.

FerryFor50
01-23-2017, 09:23 PM
He went 8-15 from the free throw line. 4-6 from three.

See? I'm so mad I can't even read straight. lol

Thanks for clearing that up. Point still stands, though. 4-6 is an even better %. :-P

AFL
01-23-2017, 09:24 PM
At this point, a .500 finish in ACC play is looking like the best case scenario. There's absolutely no excuse for losing to NC State @ Cameron. I have run out of excuses, and almost out of patience with this team.

duke4ever19
01-23-2017, 09:24 PM
Ball just got poked away. It happens. Otherwise, I was thinking Tatum could go coast-to-coast.

Two road games next. Oh boy.

DukeWarhead
01-23-2017, 09:24 PM
Was this the pre-season #1 team? Hmmmm. This makes me not care about 2017/2018 recruiting news. 5 star recruits not a guarantee for winning.

duke4life32182
01-23-2017, 09:24 PM
Tatum pass? Yeah right. This team has a lot of problems. No defense, some of the laziest passes I've ever seen. Not fluid on offense. Poor rebounding. Where was Bolden at the end? Got killed on the boards at the end. We could have used him. Grayson is the biggest disappointment on this team though. His offensive game from last year is surely missed on this years team. If the old Grayson doesn't show up soon this team will continue to fall. End of the game giving the ball to TT Tatum turnover is getting old. I know he has a lot of talent but his tunnel vision is killing us. I'm going to try to stay positive by stopping right there.

Kjeffrey
01-23-2017, 09:24 PM
Sigh. Missed FTs. Sloppy offense late in the game. And Dennis Smith is really good.

State has had some of the same problems Duke has; tons of talent, can't seem to put it together consistently. Tonight, they were fortunate that Smith was on.

Still some season left, but the window is closing.

I initially thought their struggles were the result of not being able to play together consistently due to injuries. I am now beginning to wonder if part of the problem is that some of them don't want to play together.

FerryFor50
01-23-2017, 09:24 PM
Ball just got poked away. It happens. Otherwise, I was thinking Tatum could go coast-to-coast.

Two road games next. Oh boy.

Looked like he dribbled it off the back of his foot when trying to avoid Rowan.

TKG
01-23-2017, 09:25 PM
This team is so frustratingly inconsistent. Game to game. Half to half. Possession to possession. They show flashes and then flushes. Not sure I can recall a season like this.

arnie
01-23-2017, 09:25 PM
One thing I must say about Tatum loads of talent,but Gets an F on finishing. How many driving layups did he miss?His defense was weak as well. Embarrassing ball handle at end of the game.:mad:

The pitfalls of the OAD era - must temper excitement over recruiting players with a one year visa.

sbroc012
01-23-2017, 09:25 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Tatum sit one out or at least take some minutes away. I really think he might be the main problem. Reminds me of the Carmelo mentality but without the full ability.

Hancock 4 Duke
01-23-2017, 09:26 PM
As soon as the ball went into Tatum's hands at the end, I knew either a missed layup or turnover was coming. He's so frustrating to watch in clutch time.

kshepinthehouse
01-23-2017, 09:26 PM
This team needs some easy baskets. We don't dump the ball into Giles, Bolden, and Jefferson enough. Too much guard play.

What stinks is if Grayson makes his open looks and Tatum makes his layups we win easy.

rsvman
01-23-2017, 09:26 PM
Ball just got poked away. It happens. Otherwise, I was thinking Tatum could go coast-to-coast.

Two road games next. Oh boy.

No, it didn't get poked away. He dribbled it off his foot. He tried to go behind the back but threw it right into his foot.

gocanes0506
01-23-2017, 09:27 PM
Bewildering.

Beyond getting Bootsied by Dennis Smith, Tatum missed a lot of "gimmees" and there were at least two plays where he didn't even bother to get back on defense.

People that want to blame Capel, whatever. The team has to play.
I'd like to believe we are a (much) better team than State.
Didn't show it tonight.

Grumpy after a loss? Absolutely.
Starting to think the whole "we're just in October" mentality really is translating to the reality that this team may never gel and realize its potential.

Have to wonder who is more frustrated- the coaches, the team, or the fans.
This season its hard to predict which Duke team is going to show up.

Well Capel seemed really frustrated tonight. Maybe its because he knows hes losing his audition to Collins.

J4Kop99
01-23-2017, 09:27 PM
No chemistry whatsoever with this team. Very frustrating to watch. All the talent in the world (aside from a "true" pg) and yet the pieces just do not seem to fit.

The sky is not falling - but rather a hard rain... for now.

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2017, 09:29 PM
This team needs some easy baskets. We don't dump the ball into Giles, Bolden, and Jefferson enough. Too much guard play.

What stinks is if Grayson makes his open looks and Tatum makes his layups we win easy.

Jefferson is injured. Giles has no post game. Bolden's offense is through offensive rebounds and alley-oops. And we don't have legitimate passers on the team.

My God - I can't think of a college basketball team that has had this much talent but can't produce results.

Legitimate question: do we have too much talent? We are clearly overconfident. Scratch that. We're downright cocky. I wonder if that's what it is.

duke4ever19
01-23-2017, 09:29 PM
Looked like he dribbled it off the back of his foot when trying to avoid Rowan.

My bad. I didn't keep the TV set on long enough to see the replay. Jeez that's frustrating.

I still believe this team can come together. We need K back. Giles is getting better before our eyes, and Bolden is giving is starting to figure it out.

cbarry
01-23-2017, 09:30 PM
Looked like he dribbled it off the back of his foot when trying to avoid Rowan.
You are correct. Watched the play on my TiVo-- Tatum definitely dribbled it off his left heel as he went to cut against Rowan. Nobody poked it.

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2017, 09:30 PM
My bad. I didn't keep the TV set on long enough to see the replay. Jeez that's frustrating.

I still believe this team can come together. We need K back. Giles is getting better before our eyes, and Bolden is giving is starting to figure it out.

Really? He had a couple of good plays, but he got in a shoving match with a guy ranked 200 spots below him and got outplayed by that guy 10-fold. Tatum made mistakes, but Giles has been downright disappointing.

duke4ever19
01-23-2017, 09:32 PM
Really? He had a couple of good plays, but he got in a shoving match with a guy ranked 200 spots below him and got outplayed by that guy 10-fold. Tatum made mistakes, but Giles has been downright disappointing.

I definitely think Giles is improving. So is Bolden.

Skydog
01-23-2017, 09:33 PM
State so wanted to give us this game and we just refused to take it.

Tatum really blew it the win in the final 5 minutes or so by refusing to play smart. I guess he just decided he was the man no matter what. It started when we had a 7 pt lead, and NC State was giving up, hanging their heads. Time to pass the ball around, use up time, play smart. But Tatum kept trying to bully his way through, often too early in the clock and misses layup after layup. The final play was a perfect example - he looked confused and never thought to pass it to a wide open Allen. Yeah Allen was off all night but you still have to give him the ball when he is open behind the 3 point line. I know he is a freshman but use your teammates man...

Lots of blame to go around though. Allen still out of whack. And at the end the team reflected Capel. He looked distressed and frazzled and the team played distressed and frazzled. And he should have put Bolden in - we had zero rebounds the last few minutes. Anyway made me appreciate Coach K's demeanor so much more.

Only positives for me were Bolden. And Kennard at least playing smart the whole game. And Giles is looking quicker even if still a non-factor.

But what a bad loss. Such a frustrating team.

jv001
01-23-2017, 09:36 PM
This team really needs a good point guard. If Frank can't make the transition from SG to PG, I feel we are in big trouble. Grayson can play the point against middle of the road teams, but not against good teams. Tatum should be a good point forward, but turns the ball over too much and he get's in too big a hurry. I wish he was a stronger finisher at the rim but he's a finesse player. Well next play!!!!GoDuke!

60's Devil
01-23-2017, 09:37 PM
Very disheartening. Poor defense. We will be on everybody's dunk highlight film.
One of these days, however, we will be glad Capel had this audition

FerryFor50
01-23-2017, 09:37 PM
State so wanted to give us this game and we just refused to take it.

Tatum really blew it the win in the final 5 minutes or so by refusing to play smart. I guess he just decided he was the man no matter what. It started when we had a 7 pt lead, and NC State was giving up. Hanging their heads, time to pass the ball around, use up time, play smart. But Tatum kept trying to bully his way through, often too early in the clock and misses layup after layup. The final play was a perfect example - he looked confused and never thought to pass it to a wide open Allen. Yeah Allen was off all night but you still have to give him the ball when he is open behind the 3 point line. I know he is a freshman but use your teammates man...

Lots of blame to go around though. Allen still out of whack. And at the end the team reflected Capel. He looked distressed and frazzled and the team played distressed and frazzled. Made me appreciate Coach K's demeanor so much more. Only positives for me were Bolden. And Kennard at least playing smart the whole game. And Giles is looking quicker.

But what a bad loss. Such a frustrating team.

I see a lot of blame on Tatum down the stretch, but he was making some solid moves and just missing shots he normally takes. Others also did the hero ball thing. Just so little ball movement. He definitely regressed a bit down the stretch, though. I think he got caught up in the freshman duel with Smith and lost. Badly.

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2017, 09:37 PM
State so wanted to give us this game and we just refused to take it.

Tatum really blew it the win in the final 5 minutes or so by refusing to play smart. I guess he just decided he was the man no matter what. It started when we had a 7 pt lead, and NC State was giving up. Hanging their heads, time to pass the ball around, use up time, play smart. But Tatum kept trying to bully his way through, often too early in the clock and misses layup after layup. The final play was a perfect example - he looked confused and never thought to pass it to a wide open Allen. Yeah Allen was off all night but you still have to give him the ball when he is open behind the 3 point line. I know he is a freshman but use your teammates man...

Lots of blame to go around though. Allen still out of whack. And at the end the team reflected Capel. He looked distressed and frazzled and the team played distressed and frazzled. Made me appreciate Coach K's demeanor so much more. Only positives for me were Bolden. And Kennard at least playing smart the whole game. And Giles is looking quicker.

But what a bad loss. Such a frustrating team.

Couldn't agree more. Bolden was great on D and missed a few solid opportunities on O. Kennard was a stud. Jones's O was, for the second straight game, really good.

Our D is utterly pathetic, though.

fisheyes
01-23-2017, 09:38 PM
For the first time in memory, Duke has assembled a team that is not better than the sum of its parts. This was Coach K's calling card in the past. The OAD era was not kind to Duke this year.

No chemistry whatsoever.

gofurman
01-23-2017, 09:39 PM
No indications that this team can or will play solid defense and making the NCAA tourney is very iffy at this point. Absolutely must beat Wake this weekend - but don't know that they can.

I hate being right. I was the guy who said i had no faith we could beat Wake. You can't convince me we are ten points better than anyone in the league for sure right now. Miami half. State.

Most important injuries - K. Defense. Amile (Bilas thought Amile was gimpy and slow)...

Look, we coulda hit FTs. Could finished layups - but that's not the issue - a total disregard for D and effort is the problem. I don't always agree w Bilas but he noted a lack of effort on D and the Crazies enthusiasm. It's cyclical. Hard to have fans get pumped watching that

How many put back dunks and lay ups did State get. Vermont says hi! We beat them 90-88 a few years back in a year we went out (Jabari?) we lost first round of tourney

Better learn to play D. That was the crappiest D I have seen in years and sadly the worst D I have seen from us this year when having Amile. Why would our D be worse now than several games ago... IE, Have we regressed????? I'm not going totally off a cliff ( I won't mention unc beat state by 50!!!!). Lol at us. The only redeeming factor on D was understanding that Dennis Smith can go off at any time. He is a legit lottery PG. But you could tell he was drooling playing vs us. Like CJ McCollum etc. but dang it was soooooooo easy going to the rim. I haven't seen that many rim runs in a decade...freeing up alley oops and stick back dunks. That was ludicrous. Like watching us play the Warriors

Hopefully we figure it out soon. K has work cut out for him

MaxAMillion
01-23-2017, 09:39 PM
I was really surprised at how many drives Tatum made to the basket without finishing. He doesn't even draw fouls. I think he never learned to finish through traffic in high school. He seems to be able to get to the basket easily, but he just can't score. I also feel bad for Allen. He clearly is not himself as a player. If he commits that foul around the neck, it is a lead story on ESPN. I am not sure he recovers mentally this year. Probably best to go off to the NBA. Jefferson probably isn't 100 percent either. This entire season just seems like one hurdle after another to try and leap over.

I am not giving up though. I still think things can be salvaged...although it will be extremely tough.

cruxer
01-23-2017, 09:39 PM
I'm really trying to imagine what this board would have been like during K's first couple of years.

mgtr
01-23-2017, 09:40 PM
Tatum is talented, but he is the star of team Tatum, not team Duke. Bench him for a game or two. Play the players who play for Duke. Jefferson, Jones, Allen,Kennard, and maybe Jackson as pg, not Allen. Unfortunately, having Allen at point guard is a sort of a throwback to Paulus at PG. Have heart to heart with Giles and Bolden, see who really wants to play. If their primary objective is to get to the NBA, keep them on the bench. I want Duke to do well, but this year may be a lost cause. Sorry.

Kjeffrey
01-23-2017, 09:40 PM
Couldn't agree more. Bolden was great on D and missed a few solid opportunities on O. Kennard was a stud. Jones's O was, for the second straight game, really good.

Our D is utterly pathetic, though.

Kennard is too good to be on the bench. If that decision was made because Capel thinks he plays suspect defense then what about Tatum? I am trying to make sense of the change in lineup.

stillcrazie
01-23-2017, 09:40 PM
I have to think that Coach K would have settled down this team and given Tatum an earful after the first bonehead, showoff miss at the rim. I still see us improving this season, although as optimistic as I am trying to sound, the ceiling appears to be much lower than it did a month ago.

mailman2927
01-23-2017, 09:40 PM
What a disappointing team? I've been a Duke fan for over 30 yrs. and don't remember ever being this down. This team lacks a killer like Tyus, Hurley, Laettner, etc. Right now this team will have a hard time making the NIT and I'm not sure they even deserve that right now. Thought Saturday might have turned things around but boy was I wrong. So frustrating.

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2017, 09:42 PM
I was really surprised at how many drives Tatum made to the basket without finishing. He doesn't even draw fouls. I think he never learned to finish through traffic in high school. He seems to be able to get to the basket easily, but he just can't score. I also feel bad for Allen. He clearly is not himself as a player. If he commits that foul around the neck, it is a lead story on ESPN. I am not sure he recovers mentally this year. Probably best to go off to the NBA. Jefferson probably isn't 100 percent either. This entire season just seems like one hurdle after another to try and leap over.

I am not giving up though. I still think things can be salvaged...although it will be extremely tough.

This post, sadly, sums up my thoughts exactly. The wheels came off the bus, and there isn't enough time to put them back on.

I really feel for Grayson. It doesn't matter if you're mentally tough; any college kid in the world would be affected by this.

jipops
01-23-2017, 09:43 PM
This game was not decided by Tatum's error at the end. In no way did this team do anything to earn a win here.

We're just a very bad team with mismatched parts that have no cohesion and are completely out of sorts due to not having much time at all practicing together.

Considering the schedule and how far behind this team will continue to be, Miami and State were must wins. Oh well... We're now underdogs in at least 7 of the remaining games. And that includes the next 2.

sbroc012
01-23-2017, 09:44 PM
The six man rotation they had going at the beginning of the year was better than this garbage. Sit tatum and Giles and play the six man rotation with Bolden since Jeter is out. Can't hurt at this point. And hope K is back on Saturday at Wake, Capel is not good at in game. His body language is atrocious. There is a reason he got axed at Oklahoma. Great recruiter though.

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2017, 09:44 PM
Tatum is talented, but he is the star of team Tatum, not team Duke. Bench him for a game or two. Play the players who play for Duke. Jefferson, Jones, Allen,Kennard, and maybe Jackson as pg, not Allen. Unfortunately, having Allen at point guard is a sort of a throwback to Paulus at PG. Have heart to heart with Giles and Bolden, see who really wants to play. If their primary objective is to get to the NBA, keep them on the bench. I want Duke to do well, but this year may be a lost cause. Sorry.

I don't know what you're talking about; Bolden has shown incredible improvement over the last two games. He's been incredible compared to what he was producing the 8 or so games before.

weezie
01-23-2017, 09:45 PM
Now cruising up 85 in a bad mood. The pace of this game was relentless. Even young men get gassed. They seem to go through periods of not seeing each other at close range. Not getting the intentional was outrageous. Two shots and the ball might have righted the ship. What's with the ability of other teams to lock us out of the paint? Ah geeeeez!

Devilwin
01-23-2017, 09:45 PM
We are one and a half years removed from a national title led by oads. But frankly, give me some top 50s that will mesh as a team over a couple of years. This team is so out of sync. OADS sometimes just audition for the NBA.
Not ready to quit yet, but it ain't looking good for now.

Kjeffrey
01-23-2017, 09:46 PM
I have to think that Coach K would have settled down this team and given Tatum an earful after the first bonehead, showoff miss at the rim. I still see us improving this season, although as optimistic as I am trying to sound, the ceiling appears to be much lower than it did a month ago.

The leash seems to be very long. Based on my observations, others make mistakes and get sent to the bench. Not so much for that one. The team lost this game and I am not blaming one player. Just trying to figure out the coaching and handling of players.

dukelifer
01-23-2017, 09:46 PM
Very disappointing loss. No sugar coating it. Even if Duke had pulled it out- the issues are still there. Just not coming together as a team. Lots of pieces, but no coherence as a team. I want to think they will pull it together soon but something is missing. Still a lot of the season left- but the Miami game was supposed to be a turning point and it turned back. Hard to believe they can beat ND away - Duke has struggled there for a while now- and I am not sure the matchup with UNC is a good one- but you never know. That puts Duke likely at 5-6 (assuming wins against Wake and Pitt) after UNC. Duke hopefully beats Clemson and Wake at home and Miami and Syracuse on the road (no gimmes there), but the rest of the season is very tough, UVa away, Fl State the last home game and then UNC away. Not looking very dream like. Duke has no room for error now and has to hope for at least one unexpected win. Beating state easily would helped this team's confidence but it will be hard to recover from a loss against Wake. Backs officially against the wall.

duke4ever19
01-23-2017, 09:47 PM
The idea that either Giles or Bolden should be a first round NBA draft pick this year is insane. There's not a single team in the NBA right now that either one of them could be a starter on. Tatum frustrates the heck out of me, but he's at least ready to be an NBA role player. Giles and Bolden would both be better suited for the Developmental League. Giles may be the biggest college recruiting bust in history.

I don't think that's why an NBA team would draft either player. Both Bolden and Giles have high upside, but it's highly unlikely that either would be expected to start on day one.


It's been known for some time that if Giles went high in the draft, a team would be banking on him regaining the dominance he showed his junior year in high school, plus him getting healthy at Duke. During the game, Bilas said that Giles probably won't completely show how dominant he can be this year.

WiJoe
01-23-2017, 09:48 PM
Tatum is talented, but he is the star of team Tatum, not team Duke. Bench him for a game or two. Play the players who play for Duke. Jefferson, Jones, Allen,Kennard, and maybe Jackson as pg, not Allen. Unfortunately, having Allen at point guard is a sort of a throwback to Paulus at PG. Have heart to heart with Giles and Bolden, see who really wants to play. If their primary objective is to get to the NBA, keep them on the bench. I want Duke to do well, but this year may be a lost cause. Sorry.

Can't bench Tatum. Impossible. Only hope is that Matt or Amile can take him under their wings and impress upon him that he maybe needs to pick his spots better. Or Coach K. It's hard. Tatum has probably been the center of his team's universes for a long-g-g-g-g time. Some guys are willing to dial it back. Some aren't. At this point, it appears Tatum can't. Judging by what I've seen in this thread, frustrating for a lot of people.

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2017, 09:48 PM
Very disappointing loss. No sugar coating it. Even if Duke had pulled it out- the issues are still there. Just not coming together as a team. Lots of pieces, but no coherence as a team. I want to think they will pull it together soon but something is missing. Still a lot of the season left- but the Miami game was supposed to be a turning point and it turned back. Hard to believe they can beat ND away - Duke has struggled there for a while now- and I am not sure the matchup with UNC is a good one- but you never know. That puts Duke likely at 5-6 (assuming wins against Wake and Pitt) after UNC. Duke hopefully beats Clemson and Wake at home and Miami and Syracuse on the road (no gimmes there), but the rest of the season is very tough, UVa away, Fl State the last home game and then UNC away. Not looking very dream like. Duke has no room for error now and has to hope for at least one unexpected win. Beating state easily would helped this team's confidence but it will be hard to recover from a loss against Wake. Backs officially against the wall.

Duke will make the tournament. But we will be a really, really mediocre seed. And I'm willing to bet the most talented team ever to be that seed. On paper. Cus in reality, we're a mess.

Dukehky
01-23-2017, 09:49 PM
Crap.

I'm still optimistic just based on the talent. This will be the game that does it either way though. Tatum will either figure out that Luke needs to have the ball, or he will still think he's the best player on the team. If the former happens, we'll see, if not, we're screwed.

jv001
01-23-2017, 09:49 PM
Tatum is talented, but he is the star of team Tatum, not team Duke. Bench him for a game or two. Play the players who play for Duke. Jefferson, Jones, Allen,Kennard, and maybe Jackson as pg, not Allen. Unfortunately, having Allen at point guard is a sort of a throwback to Paulus at PG. Have heart to heart with Giles and Bolden, see who really wants to play. If their primary objective is to get to the NBA, keep them on the bench. I want Duke to do well, but this year may be a lost cause. Sorry.

You make some good points but I think Bolden has gotten much better. He just missed some early dunks that he probably makes if he doesn't get injured early in the season. I think Harry looked a little better tonight and he moved better than I've seen him move at this level. I couldn't understand why Coach Capel had Bolden on the bench when the Pack made their run. We got killed on the boards after playing decent defense. My hope now is to get better and by the end of the regular season be good enough to win the ACCT. But to do that, we need someone that can distribute the basketball. This team really needs our G.O.A.T. GoDuke!

mgtr
01-23-2017, 09:50 PM
I don't know what you're talking about; Bolden has shown incredible improvement over the last two games. He's been incredible compared to what he was producing the 8 or so games before.

Right Bolden had what? 2 points and 3 rebounds tonight. Not winning basketball.

DukeWarhead
01-23-2017, 09:51 PM
Really wish I could hit the ffwd button to the NCAA tourney. Don't want to see the rest of this regular season. No idea where Duke will end up, but don't want to endure another 7 weeks of frustration.

FerryFor50
01-23-2017, 09:52 PM
Right Bolden had what? 2 points and 3 rebounds tonight. Not winning basketball.

Winning basketball is more than points and rebounds. Bolden's value is defense, especially hedging and on pick and rolls. Which is where we need the most help.

jv001
01-23-2017, 09:54 PM
Really wish I could hit the ffwd button to the NCAA tourney. Don't want to see the rest of this regular season. No idea where Duke will end up, but don't want to endure another 7 weeks of frustration.

I thought you were through with this team! GoDuke!

Skydog
01-23-2017, 09:56 PM
Right Bolden had what? 2 points and 3 rebounds tonight. Not winning basketball.

But he played some suffocating jump-out defense and forced the ball out of Smith's hands at times early in the game. That's what we needed at the end.

mgtr
01-23-2017, 09:56 PM
Can't bench Tatum. Impossible. Only hope is that Matt or Amile can take him under their wings and impress upon him that he maybe needs to pick his spots better. Or Coach K. It's hard. Tatum has probably been the center of his team's universes for a long-g-g-g-g time. Some guys are willing to dial it back. Some aren't. At this point, it appears Tatum can't. Judging by what I've seen in this thread, frustrating for a lot of people.

He is not, unfortunately, the center of this team. I would guess that K could (and maybe will) straighten that out, but for now Tatum probably hurts us about as much he helps us. He is a great talent, but is playing for the NBA, in my view, not for
Duke. In the countryside they would say he needs to be hit upside the head. Can't wait for K!

Coballs
01-23-2017, 09:56 PM
Good Duke teams don't lose at home to NC State. This team is in complete disarray and it's clearly a group that looked great on paper but simply has no chemistry and do not play well together. Early and multiple injuries, overhyped freshmen more interested in draft status than team victories, the lack of a true PG, Coach K sidelined and apart from the team for a month, the All-American upperclassman who should be leading this squad ends up acting like a jerk and playing poorly, the probable future head coach in waiting flunking what many consider to be his audition for the job...the reasons for this failure of a season are multiple and there's not going to be a fix. I'll continue to watch every game but all expectations are now out the window...I literally have none. Fortunately, in the one-and-done era there's usually a quick turnaround (for better or worse) and hopefully next year's roster comes together like this team has unfortunately failed to do. Oh what could have been..... :/

rocketeli
01-23-2017, 09:58 PM
This year we will see who the spoiled fans are. the "I didn't pay a penny towards this team and I want my money back" or "I have never contributed in any meaningful way to this team, but I'm horribly disappointed and I hate them" fans. Go ahead hate on Tatum (Al Featherston once wrote an article here about how fans always criticize the best players on the team IIRC about Josh McRoberts) so the other schools recruiters will have some bulletin board material--others cost us big with some boneheaded plays down the stretch as well...young team, can't close it out yet. It happens.

This year in no particular order
Giles knee surgery no basketball playing for over a year prior
Bolden, Tatum out for weeks with injuries
Jefferson injured
Allen injured and cyberbullied as well as being beaten up all through every game with no whistles now due to media smear campaign from company run by UNCheat grad
Coach K out for surgery mid season
Jackson injured

This team may not reach it's potential, but we should realize that it's amazing that Duke isn't losing every game by 20 points given what they've gone through

BullBlue
01-23-2017, 09:58 PM
State so wanted to give us this game and we just refused to take it.

Tatum really blew it the win in the final 5 minutes or so by refusing to play smart. I guess he just decided he was the man no matter what. It started when we had a 7 pt lead, and NC State was giving up, hanging their heads. Time to pass the ball around, use up time, play smart. But Tatum kept trying to bully his way through, often too early in the clock and misses layup after layup. The final play was a perfect example - he looked confused and never thought to pass it to a wide open Allen. Yeah Allen was off all night but you still have to give him the ball when he is open behind the 3 point line. I know he is a freshman but use your teammates man...

Lots of blame to go around though. Allen still out of whack. And at the end the team reflected Capel. He looked distressed and frazzled and the team played distressed and frazzled. And he should have put Bolden in - we had zero rebounds the last few minutes. Anyway made me appreciate Coach K's demeanor so much more.

Only positives for me were Bolden. And Kennard at least playing smart the whole game. And Giles is looking quicker even if still a non-factor.

But what a bad loss. Such a frustrating team.


This really bugged me during the game. Capel is so much more demonstrative than Coach K. He shows great enthusiasm when things are going great (second half against Miami), but also projects his frustratioin when things are not going good. And that seems to just snowball with the team.

Devilwin
01-23-2017, 09:58 PM
We are all just frustrated at this point. So much talent, but so little team play. I really don't see us making the NCAAS unless Coach gets well quickly. Please heal up soon Coach.

gocanes0506
01-23-2017, 09:59 PM
I'm really trying to imagine what this board would have been like during K's first couple of years.

Probably high emotions but this team had championship expectations. I don't believe the first 3 years would be as frustrating as this season.

bluenorth
01-23-2017, 10:00 PM
Bolden should be in as often as his fitness allows. His scoring is not a necessity, as there are several other players who can fill that role. But with Bolden and Jefferson on the court I feel much better about our defence. Giles still isn't there, and Tatum can board but only when he gets back on D. Give Bolden all the work he can handle.

Saratoga2
01-23-2017, 10:00 PM
Hard to watch our team lose at home to just an average NC State team, particularly when we twice built nice leads. A lot went wrong for us in the game and it is hard to imagine this team as living up to it's potential.

1. Selection of the starters and substitution methods didn't seem to work. We would build a lead only to see it dissipated when the group chemistry on the floor seemed to be disturbed.

2. Neither Grayson nor Frank are really play makers. They both seem more the SG types, however, neither are shooting efficiently at the present time. The best bet might be to let them bring the ball up the floor and then let Luke take on the play making chore. He seems to have better floor vision more in the order of Jon Scheyer. Not a perfect solution but better than what we are seeing when Grayson or Frank try to act as play makers.

3. Jayson has a ton of talent yet still is making a lot of mistakes. Not finishing through contact. Not getting back on defense. Fouling far from the basket. He needs additional coaching to get past some of his mistakes.

4. Our bigs looked good in flashes. Just not enough. Bolden is a better bet when working against big and physical PFs and Centers.

5. We took quite a few threes early in the clock and missed most of them. It seems to me that we could have attempted to work the ball inside for an easier shot or foul.

After watching this game i have to lower my expectations for this team going forward. Too many issues and too few solutions.

jv001
01-23-2017, 10:01 PM
I do have to admit that I can't compare this team to the 2015 NCAA Champions any longer. Those guys played together and had a great point guard. GoDuke!

tux
01-23-2017, 10:01 PM
I actually thought a lot of Tatum's shots at the rim were pretty good looks. Capel went small and put the ball in Tatum's hands. In retrospect, maybe we needed more size, as State got some easy buckets when our offense stalled.

I thought Giles looked a little more comfortable. Bolden is probably going to be a bit up and down all season, depending on the match ups. That's sorta what young teams do; even in 2015, we had stretches where we struggled. Then we won it all and everyone forgot about all those bad games.

And it wasn't that long ago where, according to this board, Tatum was our primary stud. Now he's an NBA role player and may need a couple games on the bench. The on-again-off-again struggles of this team have nothing on the wild swings of opinion on this board...

Hancock 4 Duke
01-23-2017, 10:02 PM
3-4 of Tatum's plays go right, he's unanimous MOTM. But, they didn't, because he's still raw and tries to play like he's medium-well. He has to be the most frustrating player to watch since Austin Rivers. Even in blue-tinted glasses, this season looks as if it won't get much better unless there is some serious soul searching that goes on between games.

CDu
01-23-2017, 10:04 PM
See? I'm so mad I can't even read straight. lol

Thanks for clearing that up. Point still stands, though. 4-6 is an even better %. :-P

Yes, but Dorn, and Henderson went a combined 0-4 and Rowan went just 2-6. So as a group those four shot 6-16, or 37.5%. State didn't have an inordinately good shooting night from 3.

TruBlu
01-23-2017, 10:04 PM
I'm really trying to imagine what this board would have been like during K's first couple of years.

Well, none of K's first teams were loaded with burger boys, were preseason #1, nor were favored to win the Natty. The disappointment for this year is understandable.

We keep waiting for the corner to be turned, but with our lack of quickness in our guards, the only corners being turned is by opposing quick guards blowing by our defense. Until the coaches come up with some defensive wrinkles to correct this, we will struggle.

DukeWarhead
01-23-2017, 10:07 PM
This team may not reach it's potential, but we should realize that it's amazing that Duke isn't losing every game by 20 points given what they've gone through

I'm sorry, but that's nonsense.

rtnorthrup
01-23-2017, 10:07 PM
Tatum needs to work on finishing with his left hand. Many of his drives were on the left side of the basket but he tried to finish with his right hand. Should have been easy left hand layups.

devilnfla
01-23-2017, 10:08 PM
Duke will make the tournament. But we will be a really, really mediocre seed. And I'm willing to bet the most talented team ever to be that seed. On paper. Cus in reality, we're a mess.

Remember UK as an 8 seed a couple of years ago? Wichita State does.

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2017, 10:09 PM
Well, none of K's first teams were loaded with burger boys, were preseason #1, nor were favored to win the Natty. The disappointment for this year is understandable.

We keep waiting for the corner to be turned, but with our lack of quickness in our guards, the only corners being turned is by opposing quick guards blowing by our defense. Until the coaches come up with some defensive wrinkles to correct this, we will struggle.

It really is. I've never seen a team this talented produce such mediocre results. It's really shocking. And the worst part is that the hardest part of ACC play is coming up.

jv001
01-23-2017, 10:10 PM
Tatum needs to work on finishing with his left hand. Many of his drives were on the left side of the basket but he tried to finish with his right hand. Should have been easy left hand layups.

That's a very good point. If he could use his left hand, he could finish through contact. I yelled that to the TV but Jayson didn't hear me. Must have been because Bilas was talking. :cool:GoDuke!

Devilwin
01-23-2017, 10:11 PM
I'm sorry, but that's nonsense.

I agree they've had it rough, more so than any team we've ever had. But they should be coming around as a team, and they are not.:mad:

CameronBornAndBred
01-23-2017, 10:11 PM
It really is. I've never seen a team this talented produce such mediocre results. It's really shocking. And the worst part is that the hardest part of ACC play is coming up.
When was the last time a pre-season #1 fell out of the top 25? I know it's happened, just don't remember how recently that was.

gofurman
01-23-2017, 10:13 PM
This game was not decided by Tatum's error at the end. In no way did this team do anything to earn a win here.

We're just a very bad team with mismatched parts that have no cohesion and are completely out of sorts due to not having much time at all practicing together.

Considering the schedule and how far behind this team will continue to be, Miami and State were must wins. Oh well... We're now underdogs in at least 7 of the remaining games. And that includes the next 2.

right. Tatum at the end doesn't excuse 37 minutes of bad D.

jv001
01-23-2017, 10:14 PM
I just thought of something. Wonder when Wheat will stop by and give us some encouraging praise or suggestions to get the Duke team going. :cool: Can't wait! GoDuke!

Troublemaker
01-23-2017, 10:14 PM
Because I have thick skin, I will take on the haterade and downsporks I'll receive for making a positive post, even though I know nobody wants to hear it.

We are still on the path of improvement.

NCSU played at a really high level tonight -- their best game of the season -- and Duke should've beaten them by 10. The reason we didn't beat them by 10 was because of all the missed layups and free throws and threes and other blown opportunities that, in the end, caused us to lose the game.

I feel better after this loss than after the losses at FSU and at Louisville. Seriously. Even though it was at home and against a heretofore bad team in State. Well, my feeling "better" after this loss is conflicted. I'm very frustrated that we blew a game we should've won by 10, but I think the team that played @FSU and @Lville would've lost to State by 10 tonight. Duke is still getting better and making strides, even though taking the L at home against State won't make it feel that way.

I'm looking forward to Neals' plus-minus post. I have a feeling Coach Capel underplayed Marques Bolden tonight.

Billy Dat
01-23-2017, 10:14 PM
That is one of the most frustrating, dispiritng losses in recent memory. Every time we had a chance to break them, whether the poor end of the first half, the first 9 point lead of the second half, or the 9 point lead we had woth 6 to go, we showed zero poise and zero smarts. We took bad shots, missed easy shots, threw the ball away and generally looked not locked in.

I tend to put this one on the coaches. I could point to some players but we win and lose as a team. I don't think the coaches reacted quicly or strongly enough to our lapses and the line-ups were all over the place. Capel is in a tough spot, If he gets creit for Miami he can take some heat for this one.

That one really really hurts. K can't return fast enough.

jipops
01-23-2017, 10:16 PM
Tatum made freshman mistakes that we so commonly see in one. At the same time he is a selfish player. That was a part of the scouting report coming in to the season.

I keep looking at the schedule. Where exactly are we going to get the 10 wins needed to get into the tournament? It's just hard to see it now.

There are no more delusions of this team having a ceiling that puts them in the national title game. The ceiling is simply making the tournament. And that's now a stretch.

But the worst thing is losing again with Capel. I don't put these losses on him but after this he's not going to be the guy after K.

uh_no
01-23-2017, 10:16 PM
My God - I can't think of a college basketball team that has had this much talent but can't produce results.


Perhaps you don't watch UNC enough most years.

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2017, 10:18 PM
Perhaps you don't watch UNC enough most years.

Wait, you think UNC has had this much talent on their teams, especially in recent years? Not a chance...

gofurman
01-23-2017, 10:18 PM
Hard to watch our team lose at home to just an average NC State team, particularly when we twice built nice leads. A lot went wrong for us in the game and it is hard to imagine this team as living up to it's potential.

1. Selection of the starters and substitution methods didn't seem to work. We would build a lead only to see it dissipated when the group chemistry on the floor seemed to be disturbed.

2. Neither Grayson nor Frank are really play makers. They both seem more the SG types, however, neither are shooting efficiently at the present time. The best bet might be to let them bring the ball up the floor and then let Luke take on the play making chore. He seems to have better floor vision more in the order of Jon Scheyer. Not a perfect solution but better than what we are seeing when Grayson or Frank try to act as play makers.

3. Jayson has a ton of talent yet still is making a lot of mistakes. Not finishing through contact. Not getting back on defense. Fouling far from the basket. He needs additional coaching to get past some of his mistakes.

4. Our bigs looked good in flashes. Just not enough. Bolden is a better bet when working against big and physical PFs and Centers.

5. We took quite a few threes early in the clock and missed most of them. It seems to me that we could have attempted to work the ball inside for an easier shot or foul.

After watching this game i have to lower my expectations for this team going forward. Too many issues and too few solutions.

Noted this too at end of game. Not only early threes but then all State players on the glass. As if our team wasn't expecting the early three. No one in a duke jersey even under the glass.

CDu
01-23-2017, 10:20 PM
We didn't play great, but if we don't miss so many 3s (28.6%), layups, and FTs (66.7%) we win.

I thought Bolden continued his good defense. As did Jones. Giles was effective (8 and 7 in just 14 minutes) and did bet on ball screens. Rough night for Allen who missed a TON of open 3s.

Awful loss ultimately. Some positive signs, but losing a game we needed to win ain't good.

jipops
01-23-2017, 10:20 PM
I'll finally say something semi-positive. We're in desperation mode from here on out. And I kind of like watching us play like that.

FerryFor50
01-23-2017, 10:21 PM
Because I have thick skin, I will take on the haterade and downsporks I'll receive for making a positive post, even though I know nobody wants to hear it.

We are still on the path of improvement.

NCSU played at a really high level tonight -- their best game of the season -- and Duke should've beaten them by 10. The reason we didn't beat them by 10 was because of all the missed layups and free throws and threes and other blown opportunities that, in the end, caused us to lose the game.

I feel better after this loss than after the losses at FSU and at Louisville. Seriously. Even though it was at home and against a heretofore bad team in State. Well, my feeling "better" after this loss is conflicted. I'm very frustrated that we blew a game we should've won by 10, but I think the team that played @FSU and @Lville would've lost to State by 10 tonight. Duke is still getting better and making strides, even though taking the L at home against State won't make it feel that way.

I'm looking forward to Neals' plus-minus post. I have a feeling Coach Capel underplayed Marques Bolden tonight.

I think you left out "Dennis Smith went bananas" in why Duke lost. He's really, really good. Also, Allen shooting 1-9 from 3? Several were wide open. Yuck.

I actually felt better after the L'ville loss, since they're a vastly better team and Duke was missing Amile and still almost was able to pull it out on the road.

jv001
01-23-2017, 10:21 PM
Because I have thick skin, I will take on the haterade and downsporks I'll receive for making a positive post, even though I know nobody wants to hear it.

We are still on the path of improvement.

NCSU played at a really high level tonight -- their best game of the season -- and Duke should've beaten them by 10. The reason we didn't beat them by 10 was because of all the missed layups and free throws and threes and other blown opportunities that, in the end, caused us to lose the game.

I feel better after this loss than after the losses at FSU and at Louisville. Seriously. Even though it was at home and against a heretofore bad team in State. Well, my feeling "better" after this loss is conflicted. I'm very frustrated that we blew a game we should've won by 10, but I think the team that played @FSU and @Lville would've lost to State by 10 tonight. Duke is still getting better and making strides, even though taking the L at home against State won't make it feel that way.

Will add this: Hurry back Coach K because I'm afraid Coach Capel is going to have a stroke on the bench. He looks bad. GoDuke!
I'm looking forward to Neals' plus-minus post. I have a feeling Coach Capel underplayed Marques Bolden tonight.

I kept thinking about your comments regarding our offense not being very efficient(other threads). That's how I felt tonight. Our offense really let us down with those missed layups and wide open 3s that we clunked. Not to mention our terrible ball handling. Plus, we made some boneheaded fouls(see Jayson Tatum). I agree with your comment regarding Bolden. We could have used him for better defense and really could have used him for rebounding late in the game. GoDuke!

newclasspack
01-23-2017, 10:23 PM
Because I have thick skin, I will take on the haterade and downsporks I'll receive for making a positive post, even though I know nobody wants to hear it.

We are still on the path of improvement.

NCSU played at a really high level tonight -- their best game of the season -- and Duke should've beaten them by 10. The reason we didn't beat them by 10 was because of all the missed layups and free throws and threes and other blown opportunities that, in the end, caused us to lose the game.

I feel better after this loss than after the losses at FSU and at Louisville. Seriously. Even though it was at home and against a heretofore bad team in State. Well, my feeling "better" after this loss is conflicted. I'm very frustrated that we blew a game we should've won by 10, but I think the team that played @FSU and @Lville would've lost to State by 10 tonight. Duke is still getting better and making strides, even though taking the L at home against State won't make it feel that way.

I'm looking forward to Neals' plus-minus post. I have a feeling Coach Capel underplayed Marques Bolden tonight.we def. didn't play our best game of teh season but we played really good for like 80 percent of that game

jipops
01-23-2017, 10:25 PM
Seth Greenberg says Grayson should step away from the game for awhile. This has to be one of the most asinine things I have ever heard.

moonpie23
01-23-2017, 10:25 PM
unc beat state by what? 50?


coaching is on display here as much as anything......Capel is good, K is a master....

jv001
01-23-2017, 10:25 PM
we def. didn't play our best game of teh season but we played really good for like 80 percent of that game

Would love to have that point guard of yours. He was the best player on the court tonight. GoDuke!

Bluegrassdevil1
01-23-2017, 10:28 PM
unc beat state by what? 50?


coaching is on display here as much as anything...Capel is good, K is a master...

In fairness, DSJ got in quick foul trouble, during which UNC went bonkers; very similar to Duke's game against Georgia Tech.

CDu
01-23-2017, 10:28 PM
I kept thinking about your comments regarding our offense not being very efficient(other threads). That's how I felt tonight. Our offense really let us down with those missed layups and wide open 3s that we clunked. Not to mention our terrible ball handling. Plus, we made some boneheaded fouls(see Jayson Tatum). I agree with your comment regarding Bolden. We could have used him for better defense and really could have used him for rebounding late in the game. GoDuke!

Bolden is the worst rebounder of our available bigs though.

jv001
01-23-2017, 10:29 PM
Seth Greenberg says Grayson should step away from the game for awhile. This has to be one of the most asinine things I have ever heard.

I don't think he should step aside from the game but I think he needs a Coach K talking to and I'm not talking about the tough kind of talk. Grayson looks to have lost his confidence and if he doesn't get his mojo back, we're in trouble. GoDuke!

duke1983
01-23-2017, 10:29 PM
I kept thinking about your comments regarding our offense not being very efficient(other threads). That's how I felt tonight. Our offense really let us down with those missed layups and wide open 3s that we clunked. Not to mention our terrible ball handling. Plus, we made some boneheaded fouls(see Jayson Tatum). I agree with your comment regarding Bolden. We could have used him for better defense and really could have used him for rebounding late in the game. GoDuke!

On another positive note, the last two times duke lost to state we won the national championship. Good omen...

wallyman
01-23-2017, 10:30 PM
Raise your hand if you predicted the Duke women would be having a better season than the Duke men by this point.

FerryFor50
01-23-2017, 10:31 PM
I don't think he should step aside from the game but I think he needs a Coach K talking to and I'm not talking about the tough kind of talk. Grayson looks to have lost his confidence and if he doesn't get his mojo back, we're in trouble. GoDuke!

Getting benched out of the starting line up can kill your confidence.

dukelifer
01-23-2017, 10:31 PM
Because I have thick skin, I will take on the haterade and downsporks I'll receive for making a positive post, even though I know nobody wants to hear it.

We are still on the path of improvement.

NCSU played at a really high level tonight -- their best game of the season -- and Duke should've beaten them by 10. The reason we didn't beat them by 10 was because of all the missed layups and free throws and threes and other blown opportunities that, in the end, caused us to lose the game.

I feel better after this loss than after the losses at FSU and at Louisville. Seriously. Even though it was at home and against a heretofore bad team in State. Well, my feeling "better" after this loss is conflicted. I'm very frustrated that we blew a game we should've won by 10, but I think the team that played @FSU and @Lville would've lost to State by 10 tonight. Duke is still getting better and making strides, even though taking the L at home against State won't make it feel that way.

I'm looking forward to Neals' plus-minus post. I have a feeling Coach Capel underplayed Marques Bolden tonight.

All this is true. Duke was the better team for most of the night and simply blew the game. Too many mistakes. Good teams don't make those mistakes. The D was not strong enough when it mattered and there were many instances where Duke took a bad shot or showed a lack of poise. Smith is a talent and played his best game against his buddies. Still I don't see this Duke team as coming together. Can Duke make some kind of magical run- perhaps. But right now this group of Freshman is playing like Freshman and Allen is not having close to the season anyone expected. In my mind- this is the real issue with Duke. His three point shooting is very poor right now. He is having a sophomore slump as a junior. Unless he can turn it around-I am not sure who will lead this Duke team going forward.

jv001
01-23-2017, 10:31 PM
Bolden is the worst rebounder of our available bigs though.

Yeh I guess he's behind Amile and Giles, but he looks to be a better defender than Giles right now. But Harry did look better tonight. GoDuke!

FerryFor50
01-23-2017, 10:33 PM
Yeh I guess he's behind Amile and Giles, but he looks to be a better defender than Giles right now. But Harry did look better tonight. GoDuke!

What I noticed about Harry was that he stopped reaching so much on the hedges. He'll get better.

jv001
01-23-2017, 10:34 PM
Getting benched out of the starting line up can kill your confidence.

Yes that's happened in the last two games if you count the 2nd half to the Miami game. GoDuke!

MaxAMillion
01-23-2017, 10:35 PM
I'm sorry, but that's nonsense.

Not really...well losing each game by 20 points is hyperbole but the struggles on the floor should be expected. This team is not close to 100% so why should you expect better results? I have never seen a team have so many off court issues at one time. I don't expect them to be cohesive for some time (if at all). I also don't see anything close to an elite team with Giles, Jefferson, and Allen being shells of themselves. The pre-season expectations were built on the idea of having a healthy team and coach. Right now Duke has neither so they will continue to play inconsistent ball.

flyingdutchdevil
01-23-2017, 10:35 PM
Seth Greenberg says Grayson should step away from the game for awhile. This has to be one of the most asinine things I have ever heard.

I don't think it's asinine at all. I truly believe Grayson is struggling, in one form or another. Any college kid would. This isn't a toughness question. He's been berated by the media, by fans (both Duke and opponents), by prominent Duke alums (the Jays), by everyone!!! You know something is really bad when the most public support he gets is from opposing coaches (FSU assistant coach, Pitino).

I just want Grayson to be happy. He really doesn't look happy.

dudog84
01-23-2017, 10:38 PM
I was in Cameron for the first time in over 30 years for an exhibition game last fall. Are all the seats behind the benches non-student during the regular season now? I thought the price for an exhibition was pretty high, what is the energy like on that side of Cameron?

Maybe we've lost our home court advantage, which we need. Confidence builds on confidence both home and away. TV only shows the far side (students), and they must have shown half a dozen celebrities tonight that must have been sitting behind the benches. Just head shots, no way to know if they were in one small area.

Would hate if that is what has happened. Cameron was so special.

devildeac
01-23-2017, 10:40 PM
Seth Greenberg says Grayson should step away from the game for awhile. This has to be one of the most asinine things I have ever heard.

Consider the source. What a @#$%.

jv001
01-23-2017, 10:40 PM
Not really...well losing each game by 20 points is hyperbole but the struggles on the floor should be expected. This team is not close to 100% so why should you expect better results? I have never seen a team have so many off court issues at one time. I don't expect them to be cohesive for some time (if at all). I also don't see anything close to an elite team with Giles, Jefferson, and Allen being shells of themselves. The pre-season expectations were built on the idea of having a healthy team and coach. Right now Duke has neither so they will continue to play inconsistent ball.

You make a good point regarding those 3 players and tonight it was apparent Amile was not close to 100%. We are a better offensive team when we go to Amile in the low post. He's shown he can use the glass and be a force. In the 2 games back from his foot injury, I don't remember him making but one of those shots. GoDuke!

jv001
01-23-2017, 10:42 PM
I don't think it's asinine at all. I truly believe Grayson is struggling, in one form or another. Any college kid would. This isn't a toughness question. He's been berated by the media, by fans (both Duke and opponents), by prominent Duke alums (the Jays), by everyone!!! You know something is really bad when the most public support he gets is from opposing coaches (FSU assistant coach, Pitino).

I just want Grayson to be happy. He really doesn't look happy.

And he's not getting any calls from the refs. Tonight's mugging was proof of that. GoDuke!

Duke79UNLV77
01-23-2017, 10:43 PM
I was in Cameron for the first time in over 30 years for an exhibition game last fall. Are all the seats behind the benches non-student during the regular season now? I thought the price for an exhibition was pretty high, what is the energy like on that side of Cameron?

Maybe we've lost our home court advantage, which we need. Confidence builds on confidence both home and away. TV only shows the far side (students), and they must have shown half a dozen celebrities tonight that must have been sitting behind the benches. Just head shots, no way to know if they were in one small area.

Would hate if that is what has happened. Cameron was so special.

Most of the bench side is non-students. A darn shame. The buffer zone for opposing teams also is significantly bigger, including where BOG used to torment the opponents' bench.

Olympic Fan
01-23-2017, 10:44 PM
Miserable night, but I'm not going to join some of the suicidal fans on this thread ...

A lot of things had to go wrong to lose this game ... a lot of them did.

I think the biggest reasons for Duke's downfall were:

(1) Duke's poor 3-point shooting. NC State is one of the worst 3-point defenses in the ACC. Before tonight, their opponents were hitting better than 44 percent from 3-point range. In the first half tonight, Duke was right at that, hitting 6-14 (42.9). In the second half, Duke missed 12 of 14 (14.3 percent) -- and all except the last two which were forced up in the final seconds, were basically wide open shots. Grayson was 1-of-9 from 3 and almost all of them ere wide open shots. With Duke up 70-63 with just under five minutes to play, Jayson Tatum missed a layup, Grayson missed a wide open 3 from the corner, Matt missed a wide open 3 .. . shoot a normal percentage on uncontested 3s and none of the other problems matter.

(2) Jayson's problems finishing. Those were all terrific moves, but he missed four times at the rim. Hit a couple of those and the 3-point misses don't hurt so much.

(3) Free throw shooting. Okay. 14 of 21 is not terrible, but it's well below Duke's average. You might expect Giles to miss and Jefferson to go 1-fpr-2 (he ALWAYS goes 1-for-2), but four of the misses were from Luke, Grayson and Jayson -- all three career 80 percent FT shooting. Luke missed the first shot of a 1-and-1 in the first half. Those wasted points hurt.

(4) A career game from Ted Kaptika. Look, as good as Dennis Smith was, he's done that before in Wolfpack losses. He had 31 (with 8 rebounds and 6 assists) in the home loss to Georgia Tech. Overall, State players did offensively what they had been doing in their losses -- with one exception. Ted Kapita had a total of four points and eight rebounds in State's first seven ACC games. He didn't get off the bench in the last two Pack games. Against Duke, he had 14 points and 10 rebounds in 19 minutes. He hit 6-of-7 from the floor and 2-of-2 from the foul line. THAT was the factor that we hadn't expected.

(5) Duke botched the end of the first half, giving State real life. With 36.6 seconds left, Duke was up 44-32 with Luke Kennard standing at the foul line with one more free throw. He missed. State came down and Smith hit a 3 -- 44-35. Duke calls timeout with 22.3 seconds left to set up a last shot. But with 6.4 seconds left, Matt Jones is called for traveling (the call looked pretty questionable to me, but I'm biased). Smith pushesd it up the court and hits a 3 at the buzzer -- and State runs off like they won the game (even though Duke was still up 44-38).

(6) Every State fan in the world thinks they always getting screwed by the refs. As I said, I'm biased, but I thought it was the makeup game for the bad calls that went against State in the Wake game -- the next time you hear a State fan complain about Jamie Luckie's missed out of bounds call against Henderson in the Wake game, remind them of the play with 14 minutes left tonight. Duke had Smith trapped in front of the State bench, when he elbowed Grayson in the face and called timeout. The refs gave him the timeout, then went to review the elbow ... they decided not to call a flagrant foul on Smith -- but while looking at the replay, they had to see that Smith's foot was out of bounds the whole time. But that's not reviewable, so State kept the ball. They reviewed Abu's takedown from behind as Grayson was going for a layup, but decided not to call a flagrant foul. One foul on Tatum after a defensive rebound by State was absolutely bogus -- Tatum was standing behind the State player when a State teammate reached in and knocked the ball away. Somehow that was a foul on Tatum.

I'm not blaming the refs, just pointing out the odd sequence of events that led to this loss.

Overall, I am disappointed, not just with the Duke team that came up short tonight, but with some of the fair weather fans who are deserting the ship in the wake of the loss. There is still a long way to go and a lot of time to fix this team's problems. This is a volatile season ... not just for Duke, but for a lot of ACC teams. Be patient and give this Duke team time to gel.

CameronBornAndBred
01-23-2017, 10:44 PM
On another positive note, the last two times duke lost to state we won the national championship. Good omen...

The last time we lost to State in CIS, we didn't have a post season. :rolleyes:

(We'll be playing, this year, though...)

Duke76
01-23-2017, 10:44 PM
Jefferson is injured. Giles has no post game. Bolden's offense is through offensive rebounds and alley-oops. And we don't have legitimate passers on the team.

My God - I can't think of a college basketball team that has had this much talent but can't produce results.

Legitimate question: do we have too much talent? We are clearly overconfident. Scratch that. We're downright cocky. I wonder if that's what it is.

I think Grayson should have demanded the ball back from Tatum....but Giles looked like he had a post game tonight....4-5 from field in 14 minutes why in the world didn't he play more....I think Capel coaches based on hunches...clearly Luke should have started and played his usual 39 minutes a game...he's the only one consistent with his outside shot,,,he just doesn't shoot enough and now we are losing him for 10 minutes a game

uh_no
01-23-2017, 10:45 PM
Wait, you think UNC has had this much talent on their teams, especially in recent years? Not a chance...

fair point :)

Anyway,

I kind of wanted to play a game called "what happened if we made the last shot?" I think it would be something like "oh man this team is gelling, they showed so much heart to come back at the end when it looked lost, we're on the upswing, yay tatum he's a god....bla bla bla"

But it didn't and we get "oh god, I quit duke basketball, this team shows no heart (funny how often teams success or failure is blamed on "heart" and not their actual play....), we're awful, worst team ever, K can't coach...bla bla bla"

Anyway, lets take the middle road of "it is what it is"

1) I was happy to see that there hasn't been a ton of posts saying "refs suck they're why we lost." I make a point of never blaming the refs for a loss, unless you played perfectly otherwise (which obviously never happens). I'm happy to talk about calls I agreed with or disagreed with, but never reach for the refs when trying to come up with excuses. It's the easy way out. So well done DBR for finding the things we CAN actually control and focusing on them instead.

2) There were a lot of good things today again. There were positive contributions from everyone on the floor at one point or another. Bolden showed he is still getting better, matt stayed pretty hot, grayson and luke knocked down some shots. That doesn't mean there was nothing bad...everyone has many things to work on....just that everyone did at least something good.

3) The team fought back at the end despite blowing what should have been a cruise home win. We almost stole the game back. I thought it was over. Many people thought it was over. To only need 2 to tie there at the end was a feat in itself. One more TO would have been nice.

now moving off the back side
4) Personnel decisions. I think capel did a very poor job with his personnel decisions in the second half. We're getting knocked back on the glass, yet still hanging on, and we make the decision to pull bolden and go small with amile at the 5??? 3 pick and rolls/easy put backs we're on the wrong end of a free throw shooting contest. And holy crap...luke had 20 points in 27 minutes. how that kid only sees 27 minutes in that game? The fact that jayson tatum got more minutes that grayson or luke is mind boggling. I'm sorry Coach, that was not a well coached game, and I think it had a major impact on the outcome. (also...if you needed more reason to think going small was wrong....look at bolden's +/- relative to everyone else on the team....+16...nobody else was higher than +4....would have been +22 if he hadn't missed all his dunks....)

5) offensive rebounding. The numbers don't show it, but down the stretch they had some key offensive boards. all of them went for points, I think. Amile appeared to not be 100% to me....he got outgunned for several boards he normally would own.

6) grayson. I love grayson, I thought other than <SPOILTER> he played decently. he found some nice open shots, hit 3-4 from inside the arc....but <SPOILER> grayson is in a MAJOR slump from outside the arc. 1-9? It might as well have been 1-50 with how wide open some of those are. I don't know if it's related to the time he missed with his toe....but man....we really need him to bust out of this. matt finally did, now it's your turn.

7) jayson. Now, a heard a lot of negative things about him, and yes, I thought he took some ill advised shots....but he got himself some really really good looks. The last play aside (that doesn't bother me so much), the biggest issue was the few missed layups...and his reaction to them...and his defense. Gotta make your layups. gotta get back. his offensive rating is lowest of the rotation guys but for marques. He's shooting .295 from 3....worse than the seriously slumping grayson. When the defense is letting us down, we can't afford such low % possessions. jayson doesn't need to be taking 4 3Pters a game. He needs to be making his layups.


That's all I got...lets hope amile gets back closer to 100% and coach K and retake the reigns.

uh_no
01-23-2017, 10:47 PM
Seth Greenberg says Grayson should step away from the game for awhile. This has to be one of the most asinine things I have ever heard.


Listen to my advice, and you, too, can miss the tournament every year!

rekt.

devildeac
01-23-2017, 10:48 PM
And he's not getting any calls from the refs. Tonight's mugging was proof of that. GoDuke!

Plus, he got an elbow from Smith and, after further review, no call. Let Grayson elbow someone or horse collar someone and it's an F1 or F2, 2 shots, possession to the other team, perhaps an ejection and suspension. Pathetic.

gofurman
01-23-2017, 10:50 PM
Just to depress you more. That was the game w the highest chance of Duke winning of all remaining games per RPI. Good site here-


http://www.rpiforecast.com/teams/Duke.html


Next is Pitt at home and wake at home as two easiest. Interesting site

jipops
01-23-2017, 10:51 PM
I don't think it's asinine at all. I truly believe Grayson is struggling, in one form or another. Any college kid would. This isn't a toughness question. He's been berated by the media, by fans (both Duke and opponents), by prominent Duke alums (the Jays), by everyone!!! You know something is really bad when the most public support he gets is from opposing coaches (FSU assistant coach, Pitino).

I just want Grayson to be happy. He really doesn't look happy.

Sports media is not going to decide to leave Grayson alone just because he took a break. You don't get your shot back by not shooting. He's forced to play out of position at pg. That is not going to change.

Yes, it is asinine.

heyman25
01-23-2017, 10:55 PM
One step forward , 2 steps back.NCSU deserves credit for the win,but our team let a W slip away.I heard Jeff Capel say they practiced all last week working on finishing. Today that finishing effort was lousy and the defense was porous. Still time to turn it around, but this loss stings this team and me as a fan. Wake up call for Tatum. Making great drives and not finishing and not getting back on defense is a major flaw Jayson needs to correct. Grayson was not too sharp today as well.I for one will hope for the best, but the season thus far has been perplexing and disappointing. Kennard , Jones , and Bolden are improving. Jackson's decisions tonight have led to transition baskets for State. Oh well, just hope next game the team improves. We need some 40 consistent minutes games. Too many lapses every game.

DU82
01-23-2017, 10:55 PM
Plus, he got an elbow from Smith and, after further review, no call. Let Grayson elbow someone or horse collar someone and it's an F1 or F2, 2 shots, possession to the other team, perhaps an ejection and suspension. Pathetic.

On the one from Smith, it appeared to be below the shoulders, and not a flagrant I (and not a reviewable call at that point, including Smith stepping out of bounds.) On the second, however, it should have been two shots for the first (common) foul, two for the horse collar and the ball after those free throws.

I was thinking the same thing as OF: This was a makeup game for having Jamie Luckie on Saturday.

LastRowFan
01-23-2017, 10:59 PM
Was there any discussion of Amile in the post game?

He played early and seemed to be visibly limping in the second half. I think we missed him down the stretch ...

I worry that his foot may have kept him out towards the end and worry about losing him for more games.

This morning's paper quoted him as saying his foot was hurting after the Miami game, but despite the pain he expects to be ready to go tonight ...
(http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article128097434.html)

dukelifer
01-23-2017, 10:59 PM
Sports media is not going to decide to leave Grayson alone just because he took a break. You don't get your shot back by not shooting. He's forced to play out of position at pg. That is not going to change.

Yes, it is asinine.

Duke needs Allen to find himself. I think the chances of winning with Bolden, Tatum, Giles and Jackson getting many minutes is pretty slim. Those guys in 2-3 years will be great but they are freshman and playing like freshman. Right now- this Duke team with last year's Grayson Allen could be pretty good. I suspect we have one league loss. But he is not that player and that is really the difference. We expected Grayson to be Grayson and he came back down to earth- a bit like Marcus Paige. Duke is not as good and neither was UNC. Kennard looked like he could make up the difference but he too has struggled in league play. If those guys are average players or below- and Duke does not have enough and has no margin for error.

dudog84
01-23-2017, 11:02 PM
Most of the bench side is non-students. A darn shame. The buffer zone for opposing teams also is significantly bigger, including where BOG used to torment the opponents' bench.

Do you (or anyone) know when and why that happened? I know we still have a good home record, but a young team especially needs a full dose of Crazie.

uh_no
01-23-2017, 11:03 PM
I heard Jeff Capel say they practiced all last week working on finishing. Today that finishing effort was lousy and the defense was porous. I was proud of the team for how they came back at the end when it looked dire. people were heading for the lots. Capel was complicit at putting them in that position with some of his personnel decisions. I thought they actually "finished" alright....it was the first 18 minutes of the second half that was the issue....unless "finishing" means at the rim, in which case, they still need a lot more practice.


Making great drives and not finishing and not getting back on defense is a major flaw Jayson needs to correct. I would have hoped it landed him on the bench, but it seemed to go unchecked. I hope K brings back a shorter leash with him. We have too much talent to allow one person to control such low efficiency possessions. In some other thread, people said that one of the reasons we let Austin have at it despite similar issues was because of a lack of personnel around him. Whether true or not, this team absolutely does. There are too many other parts wanting run to let one guy force his shot when he wants to. 35 minutes was wayyyy too long a leash tonight in my opinion....especially when you have Luke "20 points in 27 minutes" kennard in the wings.

Duke76
01-23-2017, 11:07 PM
I don't think he should step aside from the game but I think he needs a Coach K talking to and I'm not talking about the tough kind of talk. Grayson looks to have lost his confidence and if he doesn't get his mojo back, we're in trouble. GoDuke!

he needs a shot doctor, that's what he needs...whats the Duke guy's name that works with pro players, cant believe i cant remember his name...as soon as i hit send i will remember...Chip England, or is it with 2 g's

anyway or he needs to look at film of his shot...it is way off...he's son back to a set shot again..which look all off with release etc

SupaDave
01-23-2017, 11:08 PM
This team needs some easy baskets. We don't dump the ball into Giles, Bolden, and Jefferson enough. Too much guard play.

What stinks is if Grayson makes his open looks and Tatum makes his layups we win easy.

Give State some credit for that.

gofurman
01-23-2017, 11:09 PM
Our RPI just went from 15 to,24.

SupaDave
01-23-2017, 11:10 PM
Jefferson is injured. Giles has no post game. Bolden's offense is through offensive rebounds and alley-oops. And we don't have legitimate passers on the team.

My God - I can't think of a college basketball team that has had this much talent but can't produce results.

Legitimate question: do we have too much talent? We are clearly overconfident. Scratch that. We're downright cocky. I wonder if that's what it is.

Can't be cocky with all these losses.

Furniture
01-23-2017, 11:10 PM
Nothing to say but I will be at the game on Saturday supporting the lads!

aaron100s
01-23-2017, 11:11 PM
I hate to say this but as a fan that watches EVERY minute of EVERY game I now find myself not wanting to watch this team play Saturday. I think for the first time in as long as I can remember I'll just catch the score after its over. I find myself so frustrated I cant stand it. I've tried to stay positive about this team and keep expecting them to turn it around but am finding it harder and harder to keep any kind of positive mentality.

gofurman
01-23-2017, 11:12 PM
Was there any discussion of Amile in the post game?

He played early and seemed to be visibly limping in the second half. I think we missed him down the stretch ...

I worry that his foot may have kept him out towards the end and worry about losing him for more games.

This morning's paper quoted him as saying his foot was hurting after the Miami game, but despite the pain he expects to be ready to go tonight ...
(http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article128097434.html)

Bilas noted this. Amile was gimpy. Like I said. Don't bring him back until 100%. Not wortH lingering injury all year. If he needs to skip Wake so be it. Skip it. Take a loss He is that important for later

Chicago 1995
01-23-2017, 11:13 PM
Not popular, I realize, but I think there's some merit to Greenberg's suggestion. I don't think coming back as quickly as he did and having the plays against BC and FSU taken apart like the Zapruder film were the re-entry he needed, and it's showing in his attitude and play.

MaxAMillion
01-23-2017, 11:19 PM
he needs a shot doctor, that's what he needs...whats the Duke guy's name that works with pro players, cant believe i cant remember his name...as soon as i hit send i will remember...Chip England, or is it with 2 g's

anyway or he needs to look at film of his shot...it is way off...he's son back to a set shot again..which look all off with release etc

It is more than his shot. He is not playing the same spirited basketball he played last year. Just look at how he reacted to getting wrapped up around the neck when going to the basket. Most players would be agitated, but Grayson had to throw his hands up like he didn't do anything wrong. I think it has taken a toll on him mentally. I am not sure he can come back from this and I don't blame him one bit. Every bit of contact he is involved in is a news story.

That is why I say that it makes sense that the team is struggling. Two of you main upperclassmen are playing at far less than 100 percent. Throw in freshmen trying to find themselves after missing time with injury, and that leaves you with major problems to overcome. All we can do is cheer them on...I will gladly do it all season.

elvis14
01-23-2017, 11:19 PM
Well, that was embarrassing. NC State is not good. This is a really bad loss.

Every game it's something or someone different. No consistency or sense of urgency. I'm a big Grayson fan but I'd rather have him playing all out, tripping guys and getting suspended than playing like he's not allowed to try.

Coballs
01-23-2017, 11:21 PM
I hate to say this but as a fan that watches EVERY minute of EVERY game I now find myself not wanting to watch this team play Saturday. I think for the first time in as long as I can remember I'll just catch the score after its over. I find myself so frustrated I cant stand it. I've tried to stay positive about this team and keep expecting them to turn it around but am finding it harder and harder to keep any kind of positive mentality.

I know what you're saying and I'm pretty much with you. I have no doubt that I can definitely find something much better to do with my Saturday afternoon. But...I'm still going to tune in. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad, and I'm going to stick with it even though this team stinks and is painful to watch. They'll probably lose to Wake...and again to ND on Monday. And they'll probably get smoked twice by UNC. And they'll probably get eliminated early from the NCAA tourney IF they even make it. But when things eventually get turned around (hopefully as soon as next season) sticking with the team during these times will make future success much sweeter and nobody can ever accuse me or you of being fair weather fans.

Duke76
01-23-2017, 11:21 PM
Plus, he got an elbow from Smith and, after further review, no call. Let Grayson elbow someone or horse collar someone and it's an F1 or F2, 2 shots, possession to the other team, perhaps an ejection and suspension. Pathetic.

add to it when he was driving down the baseline line and was called for a charge when the state guys was clearly moving into him

Duke76
01-23-2017, 11:23 PM
It is more than his shot. He is not playing the same spirited basketball he played last year. Just look at how he reacted to getting wrapped up around the neck when going to the basket. Most players would be agitated, but Grayson had to throw his hands up like he didn't do anything wrong. I think it has taken a toll on him mentally. I am not sure he can come back from this and I don't blame him one bit. Every bit of contact he is involved in is a news story.

That is why I say that it makes sense that the team is struggling. Two of you main upperclassmen are playing at far less than 100 percent. Throw in freshmen trying to find themselves after missing time with injury, and that leaves you with major problems to overcome. All we can do is cheer them on...I will gladly do it all season.

well, I do agree it is a lot of issues.....when was the last time you saw him drive to the basket and dunk the ball .... he just doesn't want any contact at all when he has the ball it seems....not wanting to get any lift...think he is still hurt

elvis14
01-23-2017, 11:24 PM
add to it when he was driving down the baseline line and was called for a charge when the state guys was clearly moving into him

You guys do realize that GA will not get a call until he leaves for the NBA, right? Tonight was not the first time he refs have turned a blind eye, I'm already used to it.

Furniture
01-23-2017, 11:28 PM
Dukes press conference was 1.54. Capel was gracious and well spoken but I think there were only two questions from the journalists. A bit surreal actually....

Duke76
01-23-2017, 11:30 PM
You guys do realize that GA will not get a call until he leaves for the NBA, right? Tonight was not the first time he refs have turned a blind eye, I'm already used to it.

I'm not used to Luke playing 27 minutes, end of story...those 5 guys played great against Miami in the second half...but I wonder if K would have started them and I wonder he would've played Luke only 27 minutes?

Utley
01-23-2017, 11:31 PM
I hope I am not too raw to objectively post here. This is just utter shock. This is a game we always win - hwe ad them just about beaten several times and somehow didn't. Duke home games against teams like State just don't turn out this way.

I can't remember who said it after the Miami game but the thing I like most about being a Duke fan (winning is a close second) is that we play harder than everyone else and our will is stronger than everyone else. That's just hasn't been the case this year. Perhaps what was most disappointing about the loss was that we feel into a lot of the bad defensive habits in the 2nd half - and increasingly towards the end. That's when our effort - and our will - takes over and we win. If we don't find that - I don't think we go far. I think Quinn brought that in '15 and Singler in '10 - I don't know where it comes from this year. I don't think it will be Grayson and I worry that we won't have a fully healthy Amile for awhile - it ever again.

I am also starting to wonder if the incoming freshman weren't a little overrated. I still give Giles a pass given what he is coming off of. You can see that even though the game slowed down for him some tonight, he is just a little wild and out of control - he's just missed too much time. Marques is coming a long - and I think will be great - but isn't there yet and won't reach elite level this year. Tatum has been the most solid of the three but not spectacular - none of these kids seem to be Kyrie, Jabari, Tyus, Justise, Jah or Brandon (again Harry may get there). No bad dogs - just wondering if it is time to adjust their ceilings a little.

I think the pain in the gut is much less about just this loss and more about maybe finally having to adjust the ceiling down on this team. I do agree with Troublemaker that there is progress, but it seems really incremental and gradual, when it feels like we need something more akin to breakthrough to reach the level we need.

If we all didn't learn something with 2.3 seconds left some 25 years ago and 53? seconds left about 15 years ago is never give up on Duke or K, but its getting ever harder to believe it for this team.

devildeac
01-23-2017, 11:35 PM
On the one from Smith, it appeared to be below the shoulders, and not a flagrant I (and not a reviewable call at that point, including Smith stepping out of bounds.) On the second, however, it should have been two shots for the first (common) foul, two for the horse collar and the ball after those free throws.

I was thinking the same thing as OF: This was a makeup game for having Jamie Luckie on Saturday.

Just looked up those rules. Man, they look awful. So, a player can elbow someone in the chest/back/abdomen/Hodge zone, and not be called for an F1?

Hey, I'm greedy, but how would/could we get 4 FT out of the second scenario? It appears looking at the rules it should have been an F1 (fka intentional foul), which should have been 2 FT and possession.:confused:

uh_no
01-23-2017, 11:38 PM
I'm not used to Luke playing 27 minutes, end of story...those 5 guys played great against Miami in the second half...but I wonder if K would have started them and I wonder he would've played Luke only 27 minutes?

I would be surprised if K wasn't involved with the decision of who to start, though perhaps he ultimately left it up to jeff. I'm also shocked that luke got so few minutes. Head shakingly so. The comparison I can draw off the top of my head is giving kyle singler only 27 minutes so all day dre can get some run. Yeah dre is productive, but you don't bench the guy who's paying the bills.

Among other things, we win this game with K on the sidelines.

DU82
01-23-2017, 11:41 PM
Just looked up those rules. Man, they look awful. So, a player can elbow someone in the chest/back/abdomen/Hodge zone, and not be called for an F1?

Hey, I'm greedy, but how would/could we get 4 FT out of the second scenario? It appears looking at the rules it should have been an F1 (fka intentional foul), which should have been 2 FT and possession.:confused:

I thought when seeing the replay on the scoreboard was that the first State player fouled him going to the basket. The second State player then collared him. A flagrant foul can be called as a dead ball foul, and would be administered separately. Hence two fouls, four free throws and the ball on the F1.

NYBri
01-23-2017, 11:47 PM
If we go 8-10 in the Regular season and lose in the ACCT in the first round, we may not make the dance.

Need to turn this around quick.

uh_no
01-23-2017, 11:48 PM
I thought when seeing the replay on the scoreboard was that the first State player fouled him going to the basket. The second State player then collared him. A flagrant foul can be called as a dead ball foul, and would be administered separately. Hence two fouls, four free throws and the ball on the F1.

would have to read more carefully, but not sure a dead ball technical gives you the ball as well.

Neals384
01-23-2017, 11:48 PM
Grayson is not a point guard. He slows us down and kills momentum. His shooting is poor and his defense is questionable. Time to start Frank.

Well, Frank did start tonight.


The defense is porous and everything is one on one on offense. A good opposing point guard and a few bigs who can convert will give this team fits. They'll get better as they gain experience together, but they're not going far in March unless the assist to field goal ratio gets a lot better.

In the first half, Duke had 12 assists on 17 field goals. Your point is a good one for the poor second half - just 4 assists on 13 FGs.


Tatum pass? Yeah right. This team has a lot of problems. No defense, some of the laziest passes I've ever seen. Not fluid on offense. Poor rebounding. Where was Bolden at the end? Got killed on the boards at the end. We could have used him. Grayson is the biggest disappointment on this team though. His offensive game from last year is surely missed on this years team. If the old Grayson doesn't show up soon this team will continue to fall. End of the game giving the ball to TT Tatum turnover is getting old. I know he has a lot of talent but his tunnel vision is killing us. I'm going to try to stay positive by stopping right there.

Tatum had 3 assists in the first 10 minutes...and none thereafter. He played the entire second half...a bit of rest and some sideline coaching seemed like a good idea at the time (to me).


Good Duke teams don't lose at home to NC State. This team is in complete disarray and it's clearly a group that looked great on paper but simply has no chemistry and do not play well together. Early and multiple injuries, overhyped freshmen more interested in draft status than team victories, the lack of a true PG, Coach K sidelined and apart from the team for a month, the All-American upperclassman who should be leading this squad ends up acting like a jerk and playing poorly, the probable future head coach in waiting flunking what many consider to be his audition for the job...the reasons for this failure of a season are multiple and there's not going to be a fix. I'll continue to watch every game but all expectations are now out the window...I literally have none. Fortunately, in the one-and-done era there's usually a quick turnaround (for better or worse) and hopefully next year's roster comes together like this team has unfortunately failed to do. Oh what could have been... :/

If you are correct and there will be no magic turnaround, we will have a very long offseason with lots of time for hand-wringing and getting hopeful about 2018. Not now, please.


This year we will see who the spoiled fans are. the "I didn't pay a penny towards this team and I want my money back" or "I have never contributed in any meaningful way to this team, but I'm horribly disappointed and I hate them" fans. Go ahead hate on Tatum (Al Featherston once wrote an article here about how fans always criticize the best players on the team IIRC about Josh McRoberts) so the other schools recruiters will have some bulletin board material--others cost us big with some boneheaded plays down the stretch as well...young team, can't close it out yet. It happens.

This year in no particular order
Giles knee surgery no basketball playing for over a year prior
Bolden, Tatum out for weeks with injuries
Jefferson injured
Allen injured and cyberbullied as well as being beaten up all through every game with no whistles now due to media smear campaign from company run by UNCheat grad
Coach K out for surgery mid season
Jackson injured

This team may not reach it's potential, but we should realize that it's amazing that Duke isn't losing every game by 20 points given what they've gone through

This.

devildeac
01-23-2017, 11:50 PM
I thought when seeing the replay on the scoreboard was that the first State player fouled him going to the basket. The second State player then collared him. A flagrant foul can be called as a dead ball foul, and would be administered separately. Hence two fouls, four free throws and the ball on the F1.

Ok, that makes sense, but then again, we're dealing with acc "refs" here so all we get is the common foul, whether it was on the first NCSU player, or ignore the obvious first foul there and assess a common foul on the horse collar, ignoring its intent/F1 nature (IOW, no play whatsoever on the ball). Either way, complete garbage.

Neals384
01-23-2017, 11:51 PM
According to the play-by-play, Duke was 14 for 23 (61%) on layups and dunks. Tatum 5 for 9, Bolden 0 for 3.
State was 16 for 23 on layups and dunks (69%). Abu and Kapita were 9 for 9.

MaxAMillion
01-23-2017, 11:52 PM
I would be surprised if K wasn't involved with the decision of who to start, though perhaps he ultimately left it up to jeff. I'm also shocked that luke got so few minutes. Head shakingly so. The comparison I can draw off the top of my head is giving kyle singler only 27 minutes so all day dre can get some run. Yeah dre is productive, but you don't bench the guy who's paying the bills.

Among other things, we win this game with K on the sidelines.

Didn't Capel just get credit for putting Luke on the bench and going with a quicker more defensive lineup? I think Coaches get credit when the moves work more so than the choice itself. Either way I agree about seeing the team win of K was on the bench. I said when he went to have surgery that people won't truly have an appreciation for him until he is gone. Duke's aura of invincibility will quickly leave when K retires. That mystique was part of what got Duke through a lot of tough games. I believe K's greatest strength is his ability to get players to play for the name on the jersey. The players don't just play hard, but they also play with confidence because they believe in the system. You could tell tonight that the fight was there but a lot of the confidence is missing.

devildeac
01-23-2017, 11:56 PM
would have to read more carefully, but not sure a dead ball technical gives you the ball as well.

https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/102003-duke-vs-elon-administration-dead-ball-techincal-foul.html

"Under NCAA-M rules, contact dead ball technical fouls and flagrant 2 technical fouls result in two shots and the throw in at the division line. Thus you'll shoot free throws in the order they occur."

Sure looks like it could have been called as DU82 thinks, but, then again, it's open season on Grayson and it's acc "refs" reviewing the play. :mad:

Wander
01-24-2017, 12:05 AM
We didn't play great, but if we don't miss so many 3s (28.6%), layups, and FTs (66.7%) we win.




(1) Duke's poor 3-point shooting.


Our 3 point shooting was below average, but 28.6% isn't some totally crazy unheard of outlier. We've won plenty of games over the years - against better teams - with similar or worse 3 point shooting percentages. For example: wins in the Final Four against Michigan State and Butler in 2010 and 2015.

Gotta learn to play well when the shots aren't falling.

uh_no
01-24-2017, 12:11 AM
Didn't Capel just get credit for putting Luke on the bench and going with a quicker more defensive lineup? I think Coaches get credit when the moves work more so than the choice itself.

I said before the game I thought that while doing something different (benching luke/grayson) against miami was the spark we needed, I didn't think it would extend necessarily to other teams. Thus I was slightly surprised frank started and thought it somewhat a mild overreaction to a very small sample of good play. That's not what I was worried about...I was worried about how a few minutes of good play against a not great miami team lead to one of the top offensive players in the country only getting 27 minutes of play when a far less efficient freshman is getting major run. There is simply no excuse for that. none. Luke may not be wojo levels of defense, but he's not college JJ either. If we can't find a way with the other pieces we have to keep him on the floor for 30 minutes a game against a not good NCSU team, then that's a major coaching failure.


https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/102003-duke-vs-elon-administration-dead-ball-techincal-foul.html

"Under NCAA-M rules, contact dead ball technical fouls and flagrant 2 technical fouls result in two shots and the throw in at the division line. Thus you'll shoot free throws in the order they occur."

Sure looks like it could have been called as DU82 thinks, but, then again, it's open season on Grayson and it's acc "refs" reviewing the play. :mad:

This is correct. contact dead ball technicals are a special case:


When the technical is a single flagrant 2 foul
or a contact dead ball technical foul, the ball is awarded to the offended team....

DUKIE V(A)
01-24-2017, 12:18 AM
I tend to be a glass half-full kind of guy and did see some positives in tonight's game. However, this is by far the most frustrating of our five losses this season, and I doubt I will sleep much tonight. NC State is a talented team, but a very weak defensive team for their talent level. We missed quite a few layups, open 3's (8-28), and too many free throws (14-21 including several front end of 1-and-1's). We also lacked poise and patience offensively both when we had a shot to put the game away and down the stretch when the game was in question. A more poised, patient offense would have resulted in much better percentage shots down the stretch. We panicked and paid for it. The game reminded me of a football game in which an offense stopped itself with penalties and lack of execution rather than anything special done by the defense.

A few thoughts:

1. I actually don't have a problem with the missed shots at the rim by Tatum. That happens and finishing is tougher than it is given credit for. I like that Tatum is able to get to the rim. That said, I am hopeful that he becomes a bit more selective offensively (less forced fadeaway jumpers early in the shot clock) and uses his ability to penetrate to get his teammates open looks more often (a la Grant Hill). The thing that to me is infuriating about Tatum's game right now is his consistent failure to get back on defense after he misses shots at the rim. I don't see a guy committed to making the next play. I am shocked he was not given a rest and a scolding after a series of consecutive failures to get back on D. This is damaging to a team from the lowest level of basketball to the highest level, and there is no excuse for it. It's about effort and is completely controllable. While I am at it, and I love Amile, but he has also been guilty of this throughout the season (though not that I saw today). Missed shots at the rim and non-calls are disappointing but part of the game. Time to get mentally tougher and move forward for the team. Poor body language and defensive effort will never ever get it done.

2. Grayson is a terrific shooter, but he seems to be pushing/guiding the ball a bit rather than just shooting it confidently. I may be wrong, but it seems that he outside shooting stance has narrowed a bit with his right foot nearly behind his left foot. At times, it almost looks as if he is shooting (somewhat) sideways instead of fully squaring himself to the basket. Like I said, I could be wrong and just not noticed that he always has shot this way.

3. I don't care so much about his stats today, Bolden continues to look stronger, healthier, and more confident and aggressive. This bodes well.

4. Giles also looks improved (on the offensive ends especially). He is rebounding at a high rate and scored well tonight in limited minutes. He looked improved on defense tonight compared to previous games as well. To me, he appears to be making a high level of effort and is trying to do all the right things (even if he is not always executing). It's hard to go from the nation's top recruit to a role player, but Giles seems to be a willing unselfish, team-first guy on a team desperate for more team-first play.

5. The best five defenders need to play more period. I would not mind seeing Javin and Jack get in the game some (I realize Javin got in a tiny but today). Those guys consistently play hard and playing hard is one thing the team needs. Often heart is more important than talent (not that those guys are not talented).

brlftz
01-24-2017, 12:26 AM
some thoughts:
- after losing to va tech i just said that i hope we remember this game when we're dealing whoever replaces k, and the rush to blame capel emphasizes my point: we're going to be absolutely awful to whoever replaces K
- speaking of being awful to people in the program: jayson tatum missed a bunch of shots at the rim, but sheesh, sometimes that happens. he made great moves and was at least fighting and getting to the rim. i didn't see anyone else stepping up and generating offense. tatum makes those most of the time, and for the first 2/3 of the game he was pretty brilliant.
- i also said after the va tech that this looks like a "what if" season. still looks that way to me. i don't think this team is nearly as talented as we thought, and on top of that all the injuries and controversy...i'm rooting for them all the way, and have reset my expectations. i'll be pleasantly surprised if we manage to make any noise in march.
- possible dark horse scenario: kentucky 2014. i've been thinking about this a lot this season. aside from having k rather than calipari, we're a lot like what kentucky has been over the last 5 years or so. bringing in a new crop of stud freshmen every year leads to these frustrations.

BandAlum83
01-24-2017, 12:28 AM
Because I have thick skin, I will take on the haterade and downsporks I'll receive for making a positive post, even though I know nobody wants to hear it.

We are still on the path of improvement.

NCSU played at a really high level tonight -- their best game of the season -- and Duke should've beaten them by 10. The reason we didn't beat them by 10 was because of all the missed layups and free throws and threes and other blown opportunities that, in the end, caused us to lose the game.

I feel better after this loss than after the losses at FSU and at Louisville. Seriously. Even though it was at home and against a heretofore bad team in State. Well, my feeling "better" after this loss is conflicted. I'm very frustrated that we blew a game we should've won by 10, but I think the team that played @FSU and @Lville would've lost to State by 10 tonight. Duke is still getting better and making strides, even though taking the L at home against State won't make it feel that way.

I'm looking forward to Neals' plus-minus post. I have a feeling Coach Capel underplayed Marques Bolden tonight.

I can't spork you, but I genuinely thank you for posting a positive, hopeful message.

Kedsy
01-24-2017, 12:38 AM
And he should have put Bolden in - we had zero rebounds the last few minutes.

A lot of people made essentially this same comment, which I don't understand at all. Marques played decent defense tonight, and he played very well against Miami, but tonight he got 3 rebounds (2 offensive) in 18 minutes. That brings his season rebound per minute rate to 7.21 per 40, worse than Chase Jeter and every other Duke player taller than 6'6 who's played more than 10 minutes this season. I assume he'll improve over time, but if you want rebounds, Marques is not currently the player you'd plug into the lineup.


Right now this team will have a hard time making the NIT and I'm not sure they even deserve that right now.


I really don't see us making the NCAAS unless Coach gets well quickly. Please heal up soon Coach.

I guarantee you Duke will make the NCAA tournament. Guarantee.


We're just a very bad team with mismatched parts that have no cohesion and are completely out of sorts due to not having much time at all practicing together.

We do seem out of sorts and having everyone healthy will no doubt help, but we are not "just a very bad team." Even after tonight's loss Pomeroy calls us the #17 team in the country. Which granted is not the #1 team a lot of us expected, but it isn't "very bad" by any stretch.


Really wish I could hit the ffwd button to the NCAA tourney. Don't want to see the rest of this regular season. No idea where Duke will end up, but don't want to endure another 7 weeks of frustration.

So don't. Nobody's forcing you to watch.


Good Duke teams don't lose at home to NC State.

I hate statements like this. The 2015 team lost to a middling Miami team at home. By 16, and it wasn't that close.


I'm really trying to imagine what this board would have been like during K's first couple of years.

Exactly. The board's attitude makes me ill sometimes.


I don't believe the first 3 years would be as frustrating as this season.

I was a student during those years, and anybody who says this is worse is out of their mind.

buddy
01-24-2017, 01:11 AM
I am most disappointed in Capel's actions in benching Kennard and Allen to start the game. While I think it was tactically wise to bench them at the start of the second half against Miami--the team needed a spark--by not starting them tonight, he sends the message that he thinks they are responsible for the team's funk. Particularly with respect to Allen, who has had a difficult year, who played hurt when the team needed him early, and who more than anything just needs a hug, I think this move not only may alienate him, but will make it much harder for the putative OADs to afford him any respect. Allen is obviously not having fun; however, he usually plays hard and has submerged his game to attempt to play the point. In this regard I believe that Allen has demonstrated he is much more of a team player than Tatum, yet apparently is to blame for the team's poor performance. The NBA may not be calling Grayson after this year, or may be calling him in the second round; however, I will not be surprised if the NBA think doesn't work out that he takes his degree and departs for another program for a year. And I really wouldn't blame him. Grayson has been good for Duke--I think it is time for Duke to be good for Grayson

Kedsy
01-24-2017, 01:15 AM
2. Neither Grayson nor Frank are really play makers. They both seem more the SG types, however, neither are shooting efficiently at the present time.

Not sure exactly what "the present time" means, but Frank's eFG% over the past two games is 68.2%, which is very efficient.

Grayson, not so much, but personally I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt, since we've seen what he can do and know what he is capable of.


Luke may not be wojo levels of defense, but he's not college JJ either.

Honestly, I think Luke's defense is worse than college JJ, at least junior or senior year JJ. Luke's offense is really good, though. It's a balancing act.


Tatum made freshman mistakes that we so commonly see in one. At the same time he is a selfish player. That was a part of the scouting report coming in to the season.

While I agree that was the scouting report, I'm not sure why everyone's so down on Jayson tonight. I thought it was one of his better games this season, more assists than turnovers and his eFG% of 53.5% was his third best eFG% performance in ACC play.


I keep looking at the schedule. Where exactly are we going to get the 10 wins needed to get into the tournament? It's just hard to see it now.

Just like we lose sometimes to teams we "should" beat, we often beat teams we "should" lose to. I still expect 11 wins, maybe more.


There are no more delusions of this team having a ceiling that puts them in the national title game. The ceiling is simply making the tournament. And that's now a stretch.

Oh, please.


But the worst thing is losing again with Capel. I don't put these losses on him but after this he's not going to be the guy after K.

Come on. His record now is going to have very little bearing on whether he becomes Duke's coach five (give or take) years from now.


I hate to say this but as a fan that watches EVERY minute of EVERY game I now find myself not wanting to watch this team play Saturday.

So don't watch, then. Nobody's forcing you. My senior year the team was 10-17. I still watched every minute of every game. That's what fans do.

uh_no
01-24-2017, 01:20 AM
A lot of people made essentially this same comment, which I don't understand at all. Marques played decent defense tonight, and he played very well against Miami, but tonight he got 3 rebounds (2 offensive) in 18 minutes. That brings his season rebound per minute rate to 7.21 per 40, worse than Chase Jeter and every other Duke player taller than 6'6 who's played more than 10 minutes this season. I assume he'll improve over time, but if you want rebounds, Marques is not currently the player you'd plug into the lineup.


I think there are two responses to that, and yes, we have the benefit of hindsight, but i have the arm-chair high ground (for once!) of thinking it was the wrong decision before we saw the outcome!

1) the other and arguably more important reason many (me?) of us wanted bolden in was his success in guarding high ball screens. it may not be pretty, but it was getting the job done, at least far more than we had in games past. As soon as bolden went out, they ran ball screens on 3 straight plays and scored (if memory serves). At least one of them was on a put back. We saw maybe that many the entire rest of the game...at least with that degree of ease, anyway.

2) rebounding isn't always about the number. there is value to being a body to box out the other guy, even if you don't pull it down yourself. If bolden's body on a guy can free up amile to actually go grab the ball without fighting someone else off, there is massive value to that. Instead, amile was kind of left to fend for himself down there. Now, whether bolden would have actually helped here is far less certain than the other point, but I have a hard time believing that a lineup with marques bolden in it is NOT better at rebounding than one with frank jackson in it.

CharlestonDave
01-24-2017, 01:21 AM
I am not that sure we are guaranteed to make the tournament and even if we do we could go out in the first round . Right now I see us as a 6 or 7 seed at the most.

Why is it so terrible to say that we are not that good of a team. Ok , I will say it , we are not that good of a team. We are overrated and probably will drop out of the top 25 next week.

We recruited the top 2 or 3 high school players in the country as well as one of the better guards. We also brought back a player who was in the running for POY, who in my mind has been the biggest disappointment this year. Please stop alibiing for him that refs don't give him the calls. If I were him , I wouldn't think of leaving for the NBA .If he wants to play in Spain or Greece or Israel, then OK, but he is not ready for the NBA . He will be a D-League player at best.

Nothing has worked out . Why did anyone think that Giles would be a dominant player this year after the injury he suffered prior to coming to Duke. We read comparisons to Chris Webber , that is a joke.

There is something missing from this team and I believe someone else on the Board pointed it out . There is no one who when playing will not let us lose close games. We do not have that .

Didn't UNC destroy State recently and we cannot beat them on our home court? I am sure the UNC fans are licking their chops to play us.

Is Capel to take some of the blame here ? Can this team only win and play hard when Coach K is there although we did get destroyed by Va Tech when he was coaching. .

One last thought , were we ever in the running or did we ever recruit either of the freshman guards at Kentucky?

Kedsy
01-24-2017, 01:28 AM
rebounding isn't always about the number. there is value to being a body to box out the other guy, even if you don't pull it down yourself. If bolden's body on a guy can free up amile to actually go grab the ball without fighting someone else off, there is massive value to that. Instead, amile was kind of left to fend for himself down there. Now, whether bolden would have actually helped here is far less certain than the other point, but I have a hard time believing that a lineup with marques bolden in it is NOT better at rebounding than one with frank jackson in it.

Maybe. I can't say I've noticed that Marques is especially good at boxing out, but maybe I've just missed that. As far as your last comment, it's hard to imagine that a lineup with Chase Jeter in it wouldn't be better at rebounding than a lineup with Frank Jackson in it, but you don't see many posts around here that mention Chase but don't mention his poor rebounding rate (which as I mentioned before, is better than Marques's rate).

uh_no
01-24-2017, 01:37 AM
Maybe. I can't say I've noticed that Marques is especially good at boxing out, but maybe I've just missed that. As far as your last comment, it's hard to imagine that a lineup with Chase Jeter in it wouldn't be better at rebounding than a lineup with Frank Jackson in it, but you don't see many posts around here that mention Chase but don't mention his poor rebounding rate (which as I mentioned before, is better than Marques's rate).

sounds like we need per-lineup team rebounding numbers. add it to the list of things for DBR's summer intern to do

KandG
01-24-2017, 01:55 AM
I caught the end of the game (pretty much all of the fateful collapse after the team went up 70-63), read the first 7 or so pages of comments here (including several that the moderators thankfully intercepted quickly), then went back and watched the whole game on DVR.

I have to say I was very surprised at how much I saw that was actually encouraging, especially most of the first half and a couple of chunks of the second half after we squandered the lead and proceeded to build it back up. Better ball movement (albeit against a very bad defense), better communication on defense (in the first half), good stretches of very lively play. The problem, of course, is that the bad parts were pretty bad, and NC State got a couple of very explosive performances that allowed them to quickly erase the modest leads we built. Basically, Duke blew it by putting themselves in a position to have Smith take over in crucial end of half stretches.

I'm with the folks that don't think Jayson's finishing was as big an issue as people made it out to be (several of his looks were quite good and they just didn't go down), with the qualifier (that many people have shared) that he needs to improve his attention to detail, and get back on defense period. He's not a natural playmaker, but he made more of an effort to look for teammates, which paid off with assists or near-assists in the first half. He still has 3 or 4 "drive into a wall of four defenders" moments a game that need to be cut out, but on offense I saw small steps forward. I had more issues with his gambles & reaching on defense.

The most alarming thing to me is Amile's health. He really didn't have much lift or lateral quickness in the second half and his defense and rebounding suffered as a result. State got back in the game with some key offensive rebounds down the stretch when our bigs just weren't cleaning up the glass they way they did against Miami in the second half.

But i was encouraged by both Bolden and Giles, and the talk of Giles being a "bust" is way overstated. We may not see his true upside until he becomes a pro, but he's going to be a really good player. Right now, he's just a bit too frenetic on defense, but he's making quick strides for someone recovering from major surgery who hasn't played a year and a half. I might be an irrational optimist on this issue, but I think he may be the player who improves more rapidly than anyone else on the roster by the time the tournament arrives.

This was a bad loss, no question. Even John Gasaway, who was very bullish on this team, seems to have jumped ship (https://johngasaway.com/2017/01/24/tuesday-truths-statistically-extreme-edition-2/).

Might Tatum, on the other hand, fall into the “high draft pick, so-so college impact” side of this synapse? His season stats are fine, but his game-ending turnover felt a little too unsurprising. He’s a freshman who shoots long fadeaway twos lovingly, with little apparent understanding that, if he’s as good as we thought, he can get a better look.

Amile Jefferson may still be injured. Harry Giles has scored 49 points this season.

Duke’s 15-5, it’s still January, and anything can happen in the postseason. But right now this team looks so lost and unimposing that even people who say they hate Duke must be having a hard time working up the effort. No road crowds will storm the floor after beating this rotating cast of five disparate and passive free-agents. It would be superfluous.


I'm not ready to jump ship. But it's time to get an unexpected good win on the road to wash the stench of this one away.

uh_no
01-24-2017, 01:58 AM
sounds like we need per-lineup team rebounding numbers. add it to the list of things for DBR's summer intern to do

also meant to add in terms of making the team around him better while not showing up in the numbers....bolden was +16 on the night. nobody else came close. I'm not a fan of +- in general due to its susceptibility to be misinterpreted, but it's hard not to take notice when you're so much better than everyone else on the team.

buddy
01-24-2017, 02:11 AM
Right now our only hope of the NCAA is to win the ACC Tournament. We will have a losing regular season record (how bad yet to be determined). More likely, if we finish above .500 for the entire season our best hope is an NIT bid. Vast amount of underachievement for staff and players. Losing Thornton may have preordained this result. It is clear the coaches got blindsided when Tyus went pro and no viable Plan B. Therefore they enticed a very young Thornton to reclassify. Whether we told him fables to convince him, or whether he heard fables to be convinced, he came and thus a significant coach/player miscommunication was born. When Thornton left we were once again left without a Plan B for the point. It is now too late to rectify for this season. Allen can play point but has obvious limitations, not least of which is that it detracts from his slash and burn style of play. Jackson is a shoot first guard. We could try Tatum as a point forward, but Tatem always believe the shot he can make is better than one that any teammate can make. So we are stuck with the remainder of this train wreck of a season. Fortunately it will soon be over. With luck every so-called OAD will be one, and the upper classmen will either graduate or take their marbles to the NBA. Next year we will have a few freshmen to scrimmage with Vrank, White, Robinson and Jeter, and so it will go on disappointing year after disappointing year. This season shows the limitations of depending on OADs when significant injuries occur. Having a stable of 4 star 4 year players can leven the disappointment of a season in which all the Burger Boys go down, but I don't expect the current administration to change

PackMan97
01-24-2017, 03:12 AM
Didn't UNC destroy State recently and we cannot beat them on our home court? I am sure the UNC fans are licking their chops to play us.

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. There is no transitive property in basketball. For some reason NC State has ALWAYS laid an egg either in Durham or Chapel Hill during the season. This season it was in Chapel Hill. For whatever reason, State has been in Roy Williams crosshairs lately. I don't think he likes us very much. Not to mention we've beaten Duke TWICE in Durham in the past 22 years. Both times are when Coach K was out with back problems. If you can ever get healthy (including your coach) you will be a different team.

NC State has been Jekyl and Hyde all season long...tonight you guys just saw the evil Mr. Hyde instead of the nice sweet Dr. Jekyl. Both Duke and State have very talented rosters, what neither of us have yet are very good teams. :/

accfanfrom1970
01-24-2017, 03:37 AM
I thought the end of the 1st half was very telling.
To go from 12 up to only up 6 gave them too much
confidence.

I too will continue to watch and root. When your first
game ever at Cameron was during the Neill
McGeachy era, you appreciate things today.

subzero02
01-24-2017, 03:49 AM
Grayson's stroke looked very good; the ball just wasn't going through the hoop. GILES was awesome on the boards at times... he is moving much better and is starting to play more instinctively. He's going to have an undeniably dominant game before march if his health continues to improve. I think tonight's let down was due to a lack of K and a truly great opposing player having an outstanding game.

evrim
01-24-2017, 03:53 AM
I am not that sure we are guaranteed to make the tournament and even if we do we could go out in the first round . Right now I see us as a 6 or 7 seed at the most.

Why is it so terrible to say that we are not that good of a team. Ok , I will say it , we are not that good of a team. We are overrated and probably will drop out of the top 25 next week.

We recruited the top 2 or 3 high school players in the country as well as one of the better guards. We also brought back a player who was in the running for POY, who in my mind has been the biggest disappointment this year. Please stop alibiing for him that refs don't give him the calls. If I were him , I wouldn't think of leaving for the NBA .If he wants to play in Spain or Greece or Israel, then OK, but he is not ready for the NBA . He will be a D-League player at best.

Nothing has worked out . Why did anyone think that Giles would be a dominant player this year after the injury he suffered prior to coming to Duke. We read comparisons to Chris Webber , that is a joke.

There is something missing from this team and I believe someone else on the Board pointed it out . There is no one who when playing will not let us lose close games. We do not have that .

Didn't UNC destroy State recently and we cannot beat them on our home court? I am sure the UNC fans are licking their chops to play us.

Is Capel to take some of the blame here ? Can this team only win and play hard when Coach K is there although we did get destroyed by Va Tech when he was coaching. .

One last thought , were we ever in the running or did we ever recruit either of the freshman guards at Kentucky?


Yup! other than Matt Jones, I do not feel like anybody is playing with confidence and strength. It feels like we are just an average team that is not trying that hard and already gave up.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-24-2017, 04:19 AM
I think Grayson should have demanded the ball back from Tatum...but Giles looked like he had a post game tonight...4-5 from field in 14 minutes why in the world didn't he play more...

No, you clearly haven't been paying attention to this thread. Giles isn't improving at all, and Tatum is only auditioning for the NBA.

:)

I see the light coming on for Giles, but it's more like turning on one of those dimmer switches. He might explode for 20/10 next week, but it feels more like a slow burn to me where he gets to 16/8 by March.

Bolden is earning his minutes and starting to show what he can bring to our team - big body underneath, smart, quick feet on defense. Still a bit of a spaz with the ball underneath - needs to make confident and deliberate moves with the ball in his hands.

Tatum - well, what can you say? He has a ton of talent, and NBA-ready body, and plays like he knows it.

I bet you dollars to doughnuts that K is scribbling notes like mad - not strategizing for game play, but looking for that key to crack into this team's potential.

It is time to flip the script. Beginning of the season we were preseason number one, target on our backs, the heir apparent. Now, we're an afterthought - written off as underacheiving headcases. Let's go earn back our swagger.

Bob Green
01-24-2017, 04:47 AM
With freshmen one has to take the good with the bad...

Jayson Tatum with the ball in his hands and the game on the line had the killer instinct to push the ball and attack, that's the good; he dribbled the ball off his foot, that's the bad.

Next play!

CharlestonDave
01-24-2017, 05:13 AM
Right now our only hope of the NCAA is to win the ACC Tournament. We will have a losing regular season record (how bad yet to be determined). More likely, if we finish above .500 for the entire season our best hope is an NIT bid. Vast amount of underachievement for staff and players. Losing Thornton may have preordained this result. It is clear the coaches got blindsided when Tyus went pro and no viable Plan B. Therefore they enticed a very young Thornton to reclassify. Whether we told him fables to convince him, or whether he heard fables to be convinced, he came and thus a significant coach/player miscommunication was born. When Thornton left we were once again left without a Plan B for the point. It is now too late to rectify for this season. Allen can play point but has obvious limitations, not least of which is that it detracts from his slash and burn style of play. Jackson is a shoot first guard. We could try Tatum as a point forward, but Tatem always believe the shot he can make is better than one that any teammate can make. So we are stuck with the remainder of this train wreck of a season. Fortunately it will soon be over. With luck every so-called OAD will be one, and the upper classmen will either graduate or take their marbles to the NBA. Next year we will have a few freshmen to scrimmage with Vrank, White, Robinson and Jeter, and so it will go on disappointing year after disappointing year. This season shows the limitations of depending on OADs when significant injuries occur. Having a stable of 4 star 4 year players can leven the disappointment of a season in which all the Burger Boys go down, but I don't expect the current administration to change

I could not have said it any better. You hit in on the head and maybe Coach K and his recruiting staff have to look in the mirror and maybe re-evaluate the players they recruit .

wavedukefan70s
01-24-2017, 05:36 AM
With the multiple injuries and our young guys just starting to come around some if we can make the tourney we xan have a good season.
It seems we are behind a month.i see the young guys getting better.
It takes time which is a luxury we dont have.plus our coach is out.
Different line ups work in different situations.no sweat.next game.

Hkhawkins
01-24-2017, 05:54 AM
Tatum is an incredibly frustrating player. He's selfish but can't finish and seemingly unable to get back on defense. The team chemistry was better when he was injured.

Also, this team in general just doesn't play defense. Like at all.

Kjeffrey
01-24-2017, 06:11 AM
Tatum is an incredibly frustrating player. He's selfish but can't finish and seemingly unable to get back on defense. The team chemistry was better when he was injured.

Also, this team in general just doesn't play defense. Like at all.

It would be interesting to watch the Kansas game again to see the differences in how the team played then and now. Duke almost won and the Jayhawks are a very good team.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-24-2017, 06:24 AM
Right now our only hope of the NCAA is to win the ACC Tournament. We will have a losing regular season record (how bad yet to be determined). More likely, if we finish above .500 for the entire season our best hope is an NIT bid.

What the what? There literally are not enough games on our schedule for us to finish below .500 on the season. You need to recalibrate your PanicMeter.

David Bunkley
01-24-2017, 07:30 AM
Tatum is an incredibly frustrating player. He's selfish but can't finish and seemingly unable to get back on defense. The team chemistry was better when he was injured.

Also, this team in general just doesn't play defense. Like at all.

He is supremely gifted, but at time his decision-making and unwillingness to move the ball seem more selfish than just aggressive. My biggest concern, though, is with some of Capel's rotation decisions. I thought his decision to go small for the last 8 minutes (particularly with Giles at the 5 at around 4 minutes) cost us the game. I am not sure why we continue to go small with anyone other than Amile at the 5. All other lineups should be bigger. I know traditionally we play a lot of small ball, but this team does not seem built for it.

On the plus side, Bolden's defense against the pick and roll has gotten so much better. I would like to see him continue to start with Amile, Luke, Matt, and Grayson. Let Jayson, Frank, and Giles bring energy off the bench.

Sorry so scattered, but there's a lot I don't like right now. Luckily, it's all fixable before March.

CDu
01-24-2017, 07:37 AM
Do you (or anyone) know when and why that happened? I know we still have a good home record, but a young team especially needs a full dose of Crazie.

The student section was struggling to fill up Cameron for non-marquee games even back when I was in school in the Battier years. So after years of that, the powers that be decided to find another way to fill those seats. It started with the bench side but has expanded to the "TV" side. The back rows of the TV side have been filled with non-students in lesser-tier games since at least 2010. The bench side longer than that.

The team may need more "Crazies" (I don't think that is the real problem though), but for too many years the Crazies just weren't doing their part to fill up the place.

Indoor66
01-24-2017, 07:40 AM
The pitfalls of the OAD era - must temper excitement over recruiting players with a one year visa.

More realistic is to temper the OAD players expectations with some reality that High School & AAU are not always a good predictor.

Indoor66
01-24-2017, 07:47 AM
This post, sadly, sums up my thoughts exactly. The wheels came off the bus, and there isn't enough time to put them back on.

I really feel for Grayson. It doesn't matter if you're mentally tough; any college kid in the world would be affected by this.

I believe that Grayson's heart was wounded. I feel so sorry for the young man and wish him well. He will heal.

Indoor66
01-24-2017, 07:51 AM
He is not, unfortunately, the center of this team. I would guess that K could (and maybe will) straighten that out, but for now Tatum probably hurts us about as much he helps us. He is a great talent, but is playing for the NBA, in my view, not for
Duke. In the countryside they would say he needs to be hit upside the head. Can't wait for K!

He compares favorable with Melo in the pros. Stats and no wins. Except right now he is not getting the stats.

CDu
01-24-2017, 07:51 AM
https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/102003-duke-vs-elon-administration-dead-ball-techincal-foul.html

"Under NCAA-M rules, contact dead ball technical fouls and flagrant 2 technical fouls result in two shots and the throw in at the division line. Thus you'll shoot free throws in the order they occur."

Sure looks like it could have been called as DU82 thinks, but, then again, it's open season on Grayson and it's acc "refs" reviewing the play. :mad:

The problem with this logic is that it was not a dead ball situation. Allen was in "continuation" mode (hell, I am not even sure if they had called the foul by the time he took off) when Abu got his shoulder. No way that gets called a dead ball foul for a tech, ever.

That play is a tricky call. Abu was making a play on the ball, which bled into contact on the shoulder. That would put it in the border of common foul and flagrant 1. But notice that the bench didn't react shockedly or upset at the call of common foul. It is just the fans that reacted wanting more.

As for the elbow by Smith, no way that warrants a tech. No moreso than the forearm by Henderson. Allen flailed to try to draw the call, but that was a correct no-call.

CDu
01-24-2017, 08:02 AM
What the what? There literally are not enough games on our schedule for us to finish below .500 on the season. You need to recalibrate your PanicMeter.

Actually there ARE enough games left to finish uner .500. We have, at minimum, 12 games left. We are 10 games over .500. Now, obviously we aren'going to lose all of them, so we won't finish under .500. But it is technically (mathematically) possible to do so.

WillJ
01-24-2017, 08:07 AM
Per Aaron Rodgers, Everybody needs to RELAX.
We might still get better and, if not, well sometimes it's just not your year. And remember, we've had a remarkable number of injuries, including to Coach K.

buddy
01-24-2017, 08:16 AM
What the what? There literally are not enough games on our schedule for us to finish below .500 on the season. You need to recalibrate your PanicMeter.

Actually, there we have 11 regular season conference games and at least one game in the ACC Tournament left to play, which makes 12 in all. So it i literally possible for us to finish below .500. I know math is hard. I will accept the apology that I know you are going to offer.

More importantly, we are 3-4 in the conference. Unless something dramatic happens, I do not see us winning 6 more regular season conference games, so that it is likely that our regular season conference record will be below .500. (You do agree that it is literally possible to finish below .500 in the conference, don't you?) So far we do not have a signature win. (Maybe Michigan State.) Without a signature win, and with a losing regular season conference record, I think it is reasonable to expect that we would have to win the ACC Tournament, or at least get to the final game, to be selected. That was my point.

cruxer
01-24-2017, 08:18 AM
The problem with this logic is that it was not a dead ball situation. Allen was in "continuation" mode (hell, I am not even sure if they had called the foul by the time he took off) when Abu got his shoulder. No way that gets called a dead ball foul for a tech, ever.

That play is a tricky call. Abu was making a play on the ball, which bled into contact on the shoulder. That would put it in the border of common foul and flagrant 1. But notice that the bench didn't react shockedly or upset at the call of common foul. It is just the fans that reacted wanting more.

As for the elbow by Smith, no way that warrants a tech. No moreso than the forearm by Henderson. Allen flailed to try to draw the call, but that was a correct no-call.

Frankly I didn't think either situation warranted a flagrant foul. The elbow was only marginal contact and I really thought Abu was half going for the ball half trying to grab Grayson to keep him going down. Neither play was dirty, regardless of what the rulebook says.

I think we Duke fans are rightly a bit sensitive when it comes to GA. I think most here are correct in that if GA had been on the other side of either of those plays, the big disney would have tried printing $$$ on that for at least a week. And then the ACC would have been forced to review it. And exonerate. Further fueling the fire......

Atldukie79
01-24-2017, 08:19 AM
This team is so frustratingly inconsistent. Game to game. Half to half. Possession to possession. They show flashes and then flushes. Not sure I can recall a season like this.

1979

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-24-2017, 08:20 AM
Actually there ARE enough games left to finish uner .500. We have, at minimum, 12 games left. We are 10 games over .500. Now, obviously we aren'going to lose all of them, so we won't finish under .500. But it is technically (mathematically) possible to do so.

10 regular season games, plus one and done in the ACC would not have us under .500 and ineligible for the NIT.

Sorry, I am being a bit pedantic here, but on a board full of gloom and doom, I picked out the most absurd, which suggested Duke would be fortunate to be over .500 and make the NIT. That was literally the post I was replying to. My point was that it is mathematically impossible for Duke to miss the NIT due to being under .500 because there aren't enough games.

I would also like to point out that I find it very likely that we might find at least one win on the balance of the schedule, guaranteeing a winning season.

freshmanjs
01-24-2017, 08:22 AM
10 regular season games, plus one and done in the ACC would not have us under .500 and ineligible for the NIT.

There actually are 11 regular season games left.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-24-2017, 08:25 AM
There actually are 11 regular season games left.

Huh, if that's true, I take it all back. ESPN app is showing me ten. I got paranoid and triple checked.

Duke79UNLV77
01-24-2017, 08:27 AM
The problem with this logic is that it was not a dead ball situation. Allen was in "continuation" mode (hell, I am not even sure if they had called the foul by the time he took off) when Abu got his shoulder. No way that gets called a dead ball foul for a tech, ever.

That play is a tricky call. Abu was making a play on the ball, which bled into contact on the shoulder. That would put it in the border of common foul and flagrant 1. But notice that the bench didn't react shockedly or upset at the call of common foul. It is just the fans that reacted wanting more.

As for the elbow by Smith, no way that warrants a tech. No moreso than the forearm by Henderson. Allen flailed to try to draw the call, but that was a correct no-call.

I think it is charitable to say Abu was going for the ball, and he actually got Allen by the neck. If it had been the other way, there would be a national call for Allen to be suspended for the rest of the season.

buddy
01-24-2017, 08:27 AM
10 regular season games, plus one and done in the ACC would not have us under .500 and ineligible for the NIT.

Let's take this really slow. We are 15-5. Ten regular season games plus one and done in the ACC Tournament is ELEVEN games. ELEVEN and FIVE equals SIXTEEN. That would make our record 15-16, which is below .500. (And if you check the schedule you will see that there are TWELVE games left--eleven regular season and at least one ACC Tournament.) Please stop digging.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-24-2017, 08:30 AM
Let's take this really slow. We are 15-5. Ten regular season games plus one and done in the ACC Tournament is ELEVEN games. ELEVEN and FIVE equals SIXTEEN. That would make our record 15-16, which is below .500. (And if you check the schedule you will see that there are TWELVE games left--eleven regular season and at least one ACC Tournament.) Please stop digging.

You win.

We will be fortunate to make the NIT with one more victory. I hope the boys can pull it off.

lifelongdevil
01-24-2017, 08:36 AM
Tatum is an incredibly frustrating player. He's selfish but can't finish and seemingly unable to get back on defense. The team chemistry was better when he was injured.

Also, this team in general just doesn't play defense. Like at all.

To that end, interesting that ex-beat writer Laura Keeley said after the game regarding Tatum "In my four years on the beat, was not anyone even close to him in me-first mentality to the detriment of the team."

freshmanjs
01-24-2017, 08:36 AM
Huh, if that's true, I take it all back. ESPN app is showing me ten. I got paranoid and triple checked.

Sat, Jan 28 Wake Forest - - at Winston-Salem, N.C. 3:00 p.m. ACC Network
Mon, Jan 30 Notre Dame - - at South Bend, Ind. 7:00 p.m. ESPN
Sat, Feb 04 Pittsburgh - - Durham, N.C. 1:00 p.m. CBS
Thu, Feb 09 North Carolina - - Durham, N.C. 8:00 p.m. ESPN/ACC Network
Sat, Feb 11 Clemson - - Durham, N.C. 1:00 p.m. ACC Network
Wed, Feb 15 Virginia - - at Charlottesville, Va. 9:00 p.m. ESPN2
Sat, Feb 18 Wake Forest - - Durham, N.C. 1:00 p.m. ACC Network
Wed, Feb 22 Syracuse - - at Syracuse, N.Y. 7:00 p.m. ESPN
Sat, Feb 25 Miami - - at Coral Gables, Fla. 4:00 p.m. CBS
Tue, Feb 28 Florida State - - Durham, N.C. 7:00 p.m. ESPN2
Sat, Mar 04 North Carolina - - at Chapel Hill, N.C. 8:00 p.m. ESPN

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-24-2017, 08:39 AM
Sat, Jan 28 Wake Forest - - at Winston-Salem, N.C. 3:00 p.m. ACC Network
Mon, Jan 30 Notre Dame - - at South Bend, Ind. 7:00 p.m. ESPN
Sat, Feb 04 Pittsburgh - - Durham, N.C. 1:00 p.m. CBS
Thu, Feb 09 North Carolina - - Durham, N.C. 8:00 p.m. ESPN/ACC Network
Sat, Feb 11 Clemson - - Durham, N.C. 1:00 p.m. ACC Network
Wed, Feb 15 Virginia - - at Charlottesville, Va. 9:00 p.m. ESPN2
Sat, Feb 18 Wake Forest - - Durham, N.C. 1:00 p.m. ACC Network
Wed, Feb 22 Syracuse - - at Syracuse, N.Y. 7:00 p.m. ESPN
Sat, Feb 25 Miami - - at Coral Gables, Fla. 4:00 p.m. CBS
Tue, Feb 28 Florida State - - Durham, N.C. 7:00 p.m. ESPN2
Sat, Mar 04 North Carolina - - at Chapel Hill, N.C. 8:00 p.m. ESPN

Got it. My list was paginated for some reason.

Yes, I concede. It is possible Duke can finish the season under.500 by losing every game. After our subsequent victory, we can celebrate the end of that possibility.

So glad we cleared this up. Let's go Duke! Get one more W!

CDu
01-24-2017, 08:41 AM
Huh, if that's true, I take it all back. ESPN app is showing me ten. I got paranoid and triple checked.

We are 3-4 in the ACC. There are 18 regular season games. So 11 are left.

Also, even if there were only 10 left (plus the ACC tourney), we could still technically end up under .500 by losing them all.

We won't lose them all. But it is mathematically possible for us to end up 2 games under .500.

NashvilleDevil
01-24-2017, 08:44 AM
Let's take this really slow. We are 15-5. Ten regular season games plus one and done in the ACC Tournament is ELEVEN games. ELEVEN and FIVE equals SIXTEEN. That would make our record 15-16, which is below .500. (And if you check the schedule you will see that there are TWELVE games left--eleven regular season and at least one ACC Tournament.) Please stop digging.

So why bother playing the rest of the year right?

CDu
01-24-2017, 08:46 AM
I think it is charitable to say Abu was going for the ball, and he actually got Allen by the neck. If it had been the other way, there would be a national call for Allen to be suspended for the rest of the season.

No, I've watched it numerous times now. Abu didn't get Allen by the neck. Abu's left hand is on the ball and then Allen's left forearm. Abu's right arm goes to Allen's shoulder.

It was, at best, a flagrant 1.

Matches
01-24-2017, 08:49 AM
He is supremely gifted, but at time his decision-making and unwillingness to move the ball seem more selfish than just aggressive. My biggest concern, though, is with some of Capel's rotation decisions. I thought his decision to go small for the last 8 minutes (particularly with Giles at the 5 at around 4 minutes) cost us the game. I am not sure why we continue to go small with anyone other than Amile at the 5. All other lineups should be bigger. I know traditionally we play a lot of small ball, but this team does not seem built for it.



Amile's health probably played a role there though. He was visibly limping on the court and was not especially effective. If he's out of the game, we're more or less forced to either go small or play Giles and Bolden together (which neither K nor Capel seems to want to do much).

buddy
01-24-2017, 08:57 AM
So why bother playing the rest of the year right?

Where did that come from? At what point did I say we should not play out the season? My point was, that without a serious course correction, we will need a very strong performance in the ACC Tournament to make the NCAA Tournament. My point about the number of games was to refute the mathematically incorrect comment that "there were literally not enough games in the season to finish below .500." If you can't tell the difference that is your problem, not mine.

FerryFor50
01-24-2017, 09:16 AM
No, I've watched it numerous times now. Abu didn't get Allen by the neck. Abu's left hand is on the ball and then Allen's left forearm. Abu's right arm goes to Allen's shoulder.

It was, at best, a flagrant 1.

On top of that, ESPN has a tagline for a segment at 9:26AM called "Another Misstep" and has a graphic of Allen getting pushed by Dennis Smith after trying to tie him up on the sidelines as Smith calls a timeout.

Grasping for straws now, aren't they?

Jackson
01-24-2017, 09:17 AM
The pitfalls of the OAD era - must temper excitement over recruiting players with a one year visa.

What has been so frustrating is that at face value we should have the perfect mix of veterans to go along with the group of talented freshmen. I can deal with the missed open shots because that happens, but the lack of defensive intensity and inability or lack of will to defend ball screens is worrisome for the remainder of the season.

JNort
01-24-2017, 09:18 AM
I've been saying it for awhile now. Tatum plays the worst defense on the team, has close to 0 basketball IQ, can't finish and is a ball hog.

Still he can turn it around, we've seen glimpses of his ability but he seems to make 2 mistakes for every 1 good play.

Saratoga2
01-24-2017, 09:23 AM
This team has not met our expectations but it is still Duke's team and it is comprised of young men who are giving it their best efforts. My view is that constructive criticism of them might be helpful but bad mouthing their individual efforts is going too far and is probably counter productive. These kids probably read these threads as do the coaches. While Duke lost a game it should have won, we lost by 2 points and the sky has not completely fallen.

What can be done to move this team forward so that we get wins when we are expected to lose? We have a great deal of talent on the team and it needs to be guided and can be guided to make improvements game to game. There are a number of areas that we have talked about that should be our focus going forward.

1. Lack of a playmaking PG.

In my view, neither Grayson or Frank are playmakers despite having good handles, being athletic and such but don't seem to have the court vision and game understanding to be efficient with the ball. Frank may well improve with experience but as of now he is still a freshman and makes freshman mistakes. Both Grayson and Frank are SGs first. When we had a similar situation in the past coach K came up with Jon Scheyer to handle the point and while not a speed burner, he didn't make mistakes and the team was more efficient offensively. Perhaps its time to look for the equivalent of Scheyer on this team. Two candidates are Jayson and Luke. Jayson is a freshman and while he is good with the ball, shows few signs of being a pllaymaker for others. That leaves Luke who has a lot of traits similar to Scheyer. Good handle, good floor vision, willingness to involve team mates and the experience to remain cool under pressure.

My approach is to have Frank and or Grayson bring the ball up the floor and then have all of the plays go through Luke. It wouldn't be perfect, but it is worth a try at this point.


2. Better use of our interior players

I have seen a significant improvement in the play of both Bolden and Giles. We need to have one of them in the game at all times. Bolden seems to get how to hedge his man and then retreat to cover his man inside. He has the big body and reach and moves his feet well. I think he is better at handling the big tough opponents inside to keep them off the boards. Marques still doesn't show the soft hands and touch around the basket to be a big scorer but can dunk and will play hard while in the game. Harry seems to be more of a finesse guy who has moves inside and has the length and quickness to rebound well. I am unsure if he doesn't block out well or doesn't handle the big tough inside players well, but there is a lot to like about him going forward.

3. Tatum needs coaching

I have seen enough of him now to realize he has exceptional talent. The question is how should he be utilized. He can get his 3 point shot whenever he wants, but has not shown himself to be efficient from that distance. He gets to the basket well but his finishing needs improvement, particularly with his left hand. He probably can get his mid range to be efficient but his fade away (an NBA move) may not be the most efficient in his arsenal. His foul shooting is very good.

Let him move without the ball more and set screens for him. Encourage him to get to the basket and finish, draw a foul, pull up for a mid range or drop off. He is capable of 20 points a game if he goes with his strength.

4. Avoid silly fouls

Last night was typical in that several of our player drew fouls in our own offensive end that were the result of trying too hard to get a ball away from an opponent coming up the court. Drop back instead and play defense. Those fouls add to the total and cause a player to have to sit when they are needed. Kind of a freshman move to make a mistake and then compound it by fouling when there is no threat on our basket. Play defense with their feet first and keep your hands up. Even when we do that a talented and hot opponent will make some plays. The trick is to minimize those with good defense.

5. Coaching

We have excellent coaches with experience. guys who have played the game at a high level and have been instrumental in recruiting our players. They know the system and know how things are going in practice. Perhaps the only issue is how caught up they might get in the minute. Passion is a good thing, but clear headedness is better. They need to look not only at the player performances but also their own to eliminate mistakes they may have made. What seems to be critical at this juncture is team chemistry and individual player egos. Help these kids achieve their very high capability.

We have a team that is capable of more and may well start to show that in future games. We all need to support and encourage them to do their best.

rocketeli
01-24-2017, 09:25 AM
I've been saying it for awhile now. Tatum plays the worst defense on the team, has close to 0 basketball IQ, can't finish and is a ball hog.

Still he can turn it around, we've seen glimpses of his ability but he seems to make 2 mistakes for every 1 good play.

You're on the wrong forum--you need to post this kind of thing on Inside Cryolina

Brockt10
01-24-2017, 09:31 AM
I think our best lineup for the future is limited freshman (compared to what we have been playing). With a healthy Amile I think we should be allocating close to:

Luke-35 mins
Allen - 35 mins
Matt - 35 mins
Amile - 35 mins
Bolden - 25 mins
Frank - 12 mins
Giles - 12 mins
Tatum - 11 mins

These can be adjusted as the season and freshmen develop. Tatum playing the most minutes and taking the most shots just isn't a winning formula, right now. The freshman aren't playing up to what we thought they would be. In fact, I would rate them all towards the lower end of the "impact" freshman we have recruited during the one and done era. Obviously this can change by the end of the season but we need stability right now with defined roles.

daveduke76
01-24-2017, 09:32 AM
I see a lot of blame on Tatum down the stretch, but he was making some solid moves and just missing shots he normally takes. Others also did the hero ball thing. Just so little ball movement. He definitely regressed a bit down the stretch, though. I think he got caught up in the freshman duel with Smith and lost. Badly.

I thought Grayson's 40', or how ever far it was, attempt at 3 was equally bad

Steven43
01-24-2017, 09:33 AM
Do you (or anyone) know when and why that happened? I know we still have a good home record, but a young team especially needs a full dose of Crazie.

When I first started attending games in CIS in October of 2000 I would usually be in the student section directly across from the Duke bench, occasionally in the student section under the basket, and sometimes in the student section behind the Duke bench. The student sections across from the Duke bench and under the basket were always completely packed with no room at all for any additional students and were extremely LOUD the entire game.

By the end of those games I was worn out and my ears would hurt from standing and shouting for two straight hours. It was so loud you had to shout to even have a prayer of being heard by the student next to you. The bleachers on the side of the Duke bench were generally just as full although there might be a spot or two at the top left behind the Duke bench.

Players' families and other VIPs sat behind the Duke bench just as today. However, most of the rest of the bleachers, save for the small visitor section behind the opposing bench, were filled with students (many of them grad students, I believe). The Duke fans in those bleachers were almost as loud and into the game as the students under the basket and in the bleachers on the other side. Cameron was so loud and intimidating that you really could see the negative effect it was having on the opposing team. It was almost scary.

There were times I felt just a tiny bit of sympathy for the opposition because it seemed like they were in the middle of a den of angry lions. They often looked nervous and jittery and would repeatedly miss easy shots, misfire on easy passes and lose the handle on their dribble seemingly because the noise was so deafening and right on top of them. I think you had to be there and be in those student sections to understand. I have never experienced anything remotely similar in any of the other stadiums I have ever attended. Not close.

Sometime around the 2002-2003 season things began to change a bit. All of a sudden MANY non-students began to appear in the bleachers on the side of the team benches. I remember hearing that Duke was selling season tickets to non-students in bleacher areas where they had never been before.

Before I knew it nearly the entire bleachers on that side were filled with non-students who would generally sit for most of the game and would not engage in any organized cheers as they had always done before. It was an obvious change that clearly diminished the noise level as well as the intimidation factor for the opposition. You really could see that visiting players now seemed less nervous, less intimidated, and more confident than they had been before the change.

I was shocked and disillusioned that Duke would willingly gave up a big part of their home court advantage, ostensibly to make more money. I used to hold out hope that they would realize the folly in what had been done and go back to the way it had been. Well, it's been close to 15 years and nothing has changed. I kind of doubt it ever will, and it makes me very sad.

Spanarkel
01-24-2017, 09:40 AM
To that end, interesting that ex-beat writer Laura Keeley said after the game regarding Tatum "In my four years on the beat, was not anyone even close to him in me-first mentality to the detriment of the team."

Ex-beat writer Laura Keeley(10/3/16): "I always got a vibe that would lead me to be shocked if Harry Giles averages more than 10 min/game this year."

FerryFor50
01-24-2017, 09:42 AM
Ex-beat writer Laura Keeley(10/3/16): "I always got a vibe that would lead me to be shocked if Harry Giles averages more than 10 min/game this year."

I feel like there have been others that were in the same boat as Tatum. He's just not been terribly effective at it.

DBGoins
01-24-2017, 09:44 AM
My thoughts....And first post so go easy on me.

There were a lot of things that could have been done differently last night from the players to the coaches.

To start I would have like to seen a little more full court pressure to see if we could force a few turn overs with a freshman point guard coming into Cameron.

We were up by 9 at least 2 times last night and let State back in the game. We have to put teams away, the good/great Duke teams did that (especially in Cameron). This includes the 2nd game in a row where we did not close out the half well.

I haven't really seen anything about Capel calling the timeout with about 2:30 minutes left in the 2nd half after we hit a 3 to take the lead. To me that was a terrible timeout, our crowd in going nuts lets play it out and see if we can get a stop. Instead we call a timeout and State gets a back screen for an easy bucket?

Also I'm agree Tatum is a great talent but I would like to see a little more hard nose play and less show if that makes sense. There were a few times he ended up in the stands after missed layups leaving out defense out mans for easy baskets on the other end. Shot selections need to improve. I remember on time last night where Bolden come out in the corner and set a screen, State switched and we had a mismatch down low, Tatum didn't get him the ball for a basket instead passed it back out top after dribbling a few times.

Our offense needs to run through Kennard, 9 shots is not enough for him.

Matt Jones doesn't need to play 34 minutes for this team, I know he had a great game Saturday but he's someone that needs to be coming off the bench. If you want to start him tonight as a reward for Saturday I don't mind that but he still doesn't need 34 minutes.

With all that being said, I'm still positive this team still has a chance to make a run. We just need to continue to grow as a team.

#GoDuke

OldPhiKap
01-24-2017, 10:00 AM
My thoughts...And first post so go easy on me.

There were a lot of things that could have been done differently last night from the players to the coaches.

To start I would have like to seen a little more full court pressure to see if we could force a few turn overs with a freshman point guard coming into Cameron.

We were up by 9 at least 2 times last night and let State back in the game. We have to put teams away, the good/great Duke teams did that (especially in Cameron). This includes the 2nd game in a row where we did not close out the half well.

I haven't really seen anything about Capel calling the timeout with about 2:30 minutes left in the 2nd half after we hit a 3 to take the lead. To me that was a terrible timeout, our crowd in going nuts lets play it out and see if we can get a stop. Instead we call a timeout and State gets a back screen for an easy bucket?

Also I'm agree Tatum is a great talent but I would like to see a little more hard nose play and less show if that makes sense. There were a few times he ended up in the stands after missed layups leaving out defense out mans for easy baskets on the other end. Shot selections need to improve. I remember on time last night where Bolden come out in the corner and set a screen, State switched and we had a mismatch down low, Tatum didn't get him the ball for a basket instead passed it back out top after dribbling a few times.

Our offense needs to run through Kennard, 9 shots is not enough for him.

Matt Jones doesn't need to play 34 minutes for this team, I know he had a great game Saturday but he's someone that needs to be coming off the bench. If you want to start him tonight as a reward for Saturday I don't mind that but he still doesn't need 34 minutes.

With all that being said, I'm still positive this team still has a chance to make a run. We just need to continue to grow as a team.

#GoDuke

Great first post, spot on. Other than I think Matt needs to play those minutes; defense is killing us and he is one of the few I trust out there. Matt and Amile were not the reason we lost, although Amile clearly was not at 100% or even close. Matt and Amile are the reason we didn't lose by more. IMO.

jv001
01-24-2017, 10:01 AM
This team has not met our expectations but it is still Duke's team and it is comprised of young men who are giving it their best efforts. My view is that constructive criticism of them might be helpful but bad mouthing their individual efforts is going too far and is probably counter productive. These kids probably read these threads as do the coaches. While Duke lost a game it should have won, we lost by 2 points and the sky has not completely fallen.

What can be done to move this team forward so that we get wins when we are expected to lose? We have a great deal of talent on the team and it needs to be guided and can be guided to make improvements game to game. There are a number of areas that we have talked about that should be our focus going forward.

1. Lack of a playmaking PG.

In my view, neither Grayson or Frank are playmakers despite having good handles, being athletic and such but don't seem to have the court vision and game understanding to be efficient with the ball. Frank may well improve with experience but as of now he is still a freshman and makes freshman mistakes. Both Grayson and Frank are SGs first. When we had a similar situation in the past coach K came up with Jon Scheyer to handle the point and while not a speed burner, he didn't make mistakes and the team was more efficient offensively. Perhaps its time to look for the equivalent of Scheyer on this team. Two candidates are Jayson and Luke. Jayson is a freshman and while he is good with the ball, shows few signs of being a pllaymaker for others. That leaves Luke who has a lot of traits similar to Scheyer. Good handle, good floor vision, willingness to involve team mates and the experience to remain cool under pressure.

My approach is to have Frank and or Grayson bring the ball up the floor and then have all of the plays go through Luke. It wouldn't be perfect, but it is worth a try at this point.



2. Better use of our interior players

I have seen a significant improvement in the play of both Bolden and Giles. We need to have one of them in the game at all times. Bolden seems to get how to hedge his man and then retreat to cover his man inside. He has the big body and reach and moves his feet well. I think he is better at handling the big tough opponents inside to keep them off the boards. Marques still doesn't show the soft hands and touch around the basket to be a big scorer but can dunk and will play hard while in the game. Harry seems to be more of a finesse guy who has moves inside and has the length and quickness to rebound well. I am unsure if he doesn't block out well or doesn't handle the big tough inside players well, but there is a lot to like about him going forward.

3. Tatum needs coaching

I have seen enough of him now to realize he has exceptional talent. The question is how should he be utilized. He can get his 3 point shot whenever he wants, but has not shown himself to be efficient from that distance. He gets to the basket well but his finishing needs improvement, particularly with his left hand. He probably can get his mid range to be efficient but his fade away (an NBA move) may not be the most efficient in his arsenal. His foul shooting is very good.

Let him move without the ball more and set screens for him. Encourage him to get to the basket and finish, draw a foul, pull up for a mid range or drop off. He is capable of 20 points a game if he goes with his strength.

4. Avoid silly fouls

Last night was typical in that several of our player drew fouls in our own offensive end that were the result of trying too hard to get a ball away from an opponent coming up the court. Drop back instead and play defense. Those fouls add to the total and cause a player to have to sit when they are needed. Kind of a freshman move to make a mistake and then compound it by fouling when there is no threat on our basket. Play defense with their feet first and keep your hands up. Even when we do that a talented and hot opponent will make some plays. The trick is to minimize those with good defense.

5. Coaching

We have excellent coaches with experience. guys who have played the game at a high level and have been instrumental in recruiting our players. They know the system and know how things are going in practice. Perhaps the only issue is how caught up they might get in the minute. Passion is a good thing, but clear headedness is better. They need to look not only at the player performances but also their own to eliminate mistakes they may have made. What seems to be critical at this juncture is team chemistry and individual player egos. Help these kids achieve their very high capability.

We have a team that is capable of more and may well start to show that in future games. We all need to support and encourage them to do their best.

Sporks. I agree with all your points. One of those points is the use of Luke at the point. Like Scheyer on the 2010 team. When someone mentioned it earlier in the season, I was not for it. I thought Grayson could handle the job, but it's taken away his aggressiveness and his shot. Well, that and all the media attention to his tripping. I would be all in for that unless it causes Luke to get less shots. Sure will be glad to see Coach K back on the sidelines. GoDuke!

NM Duke Fan
01-24-2017, 10:05 AM
Hard to watch our team lose at home to just an average NC State team, particularly when we twice built nice leads. A lot went wrong for us in the game and it is hard to imagine this team as living up to it's potential.

1. Selection of the starters and substitution methods didn't seem to work. We would build a lead only to see it dissipated when the group chemistry on the floor seemed to be disturbed.

2. Neither Grayson nor Frank are really play makers. They both seem more the SG types, however, neither are shooting efficiently at the present time. The best bet might be to let them bring the ball up the floor and then let Luke take on the play making chore. He seems to have better floor vision more in the order of Jon Scheyer. Not a perfect solution but better than what we are seeing when Grayson or Frank try to act as play makers.

3. Jayson has a ton of talent yet still is making a lot of mistakes. Not finishing through contact. Not getting back on defense. Fouling far from the basket. He needs additional coaching to get past some of his mistakes.

4. Our bigs looked good in flashes. Just not enough. Bolden is a better bet when working against big and physical PFs and Centers.

5. We took quite a few threes early in the clock and missed most of them. It seems to me that we could have attempted to work the ball inside for an easier shot or foul.

After watching this game i have to lower my expectations for this team going forward. Too many issues and too few solutions.

Going through this thread Tuesay AM, this and the above quoted post also by Saratoga2 to me were some of the best and most realistic summaries of the situation and some possible remedies!

grad_devil
01-24-2017, 10:06 AM
Don't mind me; I'm just here for the SPHMs. Good to see they're out in force after the game.

I'm really enjoying this team's development. Yes, I said it. And yes, I had hoped we would be more reminiscent of the '99 juggernaut, but as the injuries and missed games piled up, I've tried to remain focused on the team's progression, as well as that of each player. I see progress, as some of you do.

Will we put it all together to make a run this year? Who knows. What I do know, is it's easy to become maddeningly frustrated with the losses. My recommendation? Take a deep breath, find a good beverage (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?3840-Ymm-Beer), and enjoy the journey. I still am confident that it's going to be a good one.

DukeWarhead
01-24-2017, 10:16 AM
Don't mind me; I'm just here for the SPHMs. Good to see they're out in force after the game.

I'm really enjoying this team's development. Yes, I said it. And yes, I had hoped we would be more reminiscent of the '99 juggernaut, but as the injuries and missed games piled up, I've tried to remain focused on the team's progression, as well as that of each player. I see progress, as some of you do.

Will we put it all together to make a run this year? Who knows. What I do know, is it's easy to become maddeningly frustrated with the losses. My recommendation? Take a deep breath, find a good beverage (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?3840-Ymm-Beer), and enjoy the journey. I still am confident that it's going to be a good one.

I applaud your optimism. Wish I could get on board, but this season has me thinking of Oregon's football season this year. Tons of talent, just can't put it together. Oh, and really poor defense...

OldPhiKap
01-24-2017, 10:20 AM
We led 68-59 with 6 1/2 minutes to go, and gave up 25 points. We can talk about missed shots and all, but there's the ball game right there. No answer for Smith, no answer for Abu. Both teams went through a stretch just prior where they both looked really really tired. State rallied, we did not.

I don't have a problem with Tatum trying to take over, I imagine that's what the coaches want him to do. (Otherwise he'd be on the bench). He will learn to finish through contact and play in the big moments. Yes, it's frustrating to watch learning curves sometimes but Tatum missed the early part of the season and is forced to learn against tough competition instead of some early season opponents. I get the frustration pointed at him but I think a bunch of it is undeserved. IMHO, FWIW. If a few of those chippies fall, we're talking about why he might be the MOTM.

rsvman
01-24-2017, 10:21 AM
It was disappointing, but I don't think it signals the end of the world.

One of the things that hasn't been mentioned in the thread was Matt's horrible decision to toss up a very long 3 early in the shot clot with nobody under the basket when we were up 7-ish with about 5-ish minutes left to play. People have said it was "freshmen making freshmen mistakes." But this was a senior making a freshman mistake. That was the beginning of the end. His miss resulted in a long rebound which led to a freebie basket for State on the other end, virtually no time going off the clock. I have NEVER been critical of Matt on this board, and I still think he is one of the most valuable players on this team, but that was a huge mistake by a veteran player. (I'm still not being critical of Matt; just critical of that particular decision.)

Otherwise, I saw signs of life in the team and I think they are still coming around and have room to grow and become much better than they currently are. Grayson had an off night. Amile was obviously nowhere near his usual self. Jackson made freshman mistakes, but he plays hard and seems to get what playing for Duke means.

We will continue to be vulnerable to teams with really good point guards. Smith is really good and had a great game. I was actually worried about this game before it was played specifically because of him.


Honestly, though, I think this team will surprise a lot of people with some unexpected wins; maybe even a road win at ND and/or Carolina. We'll be a tough out as the 6- or 7-seed that nobody wants to see in their bracket come March.

kAzE
01-24-2017, 10:25 AM
I'm still optimistic. We've shown flashes this year of what we can be when it all comes together. It's just not consistent yet. The criticism of Jayson Tatum and Jeff Capel might be warranted, but in my opinion, they were not the only ones at fault for this loss. Say what you want about Tatum, he still shot 50%, and lead the team in rebounds and blocked shots. He was not the major problem. It was still our defense, or lack thereof. And that's on everyone.

We couldn't stop Dennis Smith if our lives depended on it. He got whatever he wanted, and he actually missed about 3 wide open layups and a bunch of free throws. He probably should have had 40. Not sure how we deal with a guard like that. And since about 5-10 contending teams have a guy like that, it's going to take a lot of work before we can really call ourselves contenders.

In some ways, it was just a really unlucky game. Grayson Allen probably missed about 6 or 7 WIDE OPEN threes last night. He's usually much better than that, but I'm not sure why he's been shooting it from NBA 3 point range so much lately. At some point, if you're not hitting, you gotta just stop shooting those. As a team, we shot 28.6% from deep, and MANY of those looks were wide open. We also shot well below our season average at the free throw line.

It's a long road to get to where we need to be, but I have confidence that Coach K can bring us back. Stay positive, everyone.

weezie
01-24-2017, 10:29 AM
...
I don't have a problem with Tatum trying to take over, I imagine that's what the coaches want him to do. (Otherwise he'd be on the bench). He will learn to finish through contact and play in the big moments. Yes, it's frustrating to watch learning curves sometimes but Tatum missed the early part of the season and is forced to learn against tough competition instead of some early season opponents. I get the frustration pointed at him but I think a bunch of it is undeserved. IMHO, FWIW. If a few of those chippies fall, we're talking about why he might be the MOTM.

THIS!

I said upstream that we had seats close to the action last night. It's another ball game at eye level. Tatum is the strongest slasher on the team. He's a man out there. The contact under the basket is unreal, much goes uncalled. I can't fault Tatum. He's taking a fierce pounding.

weezie
01-24-2017, 10:31 AM
...We couldn't stop Dennis Smith if our lives depended on it. He got whatever he wanted, and he actually missed about 3 wide open layups and a bunch of free throws. He probably should have had 40...

And now it's time to resurrect the spectre of Goose Givens...

FerryFor50
01-24-2017, 10:31 AM
I'm still optimistic. We've shown flashes this year of what we can be when it all comes together. It's just not consistent yet. The criticism of Jayson Tatum and Jeff Capel might be warranted, but in my opinion, they were not the only ones at fault for this loss. Say what you want about Tatum, he still shot 50%, and lead the team in rebounds and blocked shots. He was not the major problem. It was still our defense, or lack thereof. And that's on everyone.

We couldn't stop Dennis Smith if our lives depended on it. He got whatever he wanted, and he actually missed about 3 wide open layups and a bunch of free throws. He probably should have had 40. Not sure how we deal with a guard like that. And since about 5-10 contending teams have a guy like that, it's going to take a lot of work before we can really call ourselves contenders.

In some ways, it was just a really unlucky game. Grayson Allen probably missed about 6 or 7 WIDE OPEN threes last night. I'm not sure why Grayson has been shooting it from NBA 3 point range so much lately. At some point, if you're not hitting, you gotta just stop shooting those. As a team, we shot 28.6% from deep, and MANY of those looks were wide open. We also shot well below our season average at the free throw line.

It's a long road to get to where we need to be, but I have confidence that Coach K can bring us back. Stay positive, everyone.

Several of his wide open 3s were in the corner, and right near the line. He just hasn't been hitting. Would be nice to see more games with 2-4 of the offensive threats on their game at the same time.

Jeffrey
01-24-2017, 10:31 AM
I'm not currently as concerned as most. Harry and Marques have improved substantially this past week. Amile should be healthy soon. This will be a much better team when they get their coach back. I think Coach K may have won 3 of the last 4 games (certainly the last 2 games). Our team will be solid come March.

My concern is when Coach K retires. Unlike many, I think these are important games for Coach Capel and his probability of replacing Coach K is decreasing. Duke expectations are very high and I doubt most would want 4 years of what we have experienced the last 4 games.

DBFAN
01-24-2017, 10:31 AM
Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but I have to wonder how much of an effect did playing 2 games in 3 days have on this team. Only a couple of players are still at full strength. Long rest beat Miami, short rest lose at home to State even tho there were stretches that we looked good. Just don't have the physical strength to keep it up yet. They looked pretty tired throughout the entire game. If that is the case then it's not really that worrisome because the conditioning will come. Hopefully sooner than later

jv001
01-24-2017, 10:34 AM
I'm still optimistic. We've shown flashes this year of what we can be when it all comes together. It's just not consistent yet. The criticism of Jayson Tatum and Jeff Capel might be warranted, but in my opinion, they were not the only ones at fault for this loss.

Look at it this way, Grayson Allen probably missed about 6 or 7 WIDE OPEN threes last night. I'm not sure why Grayson has been shooting it from NBA 3 point range so much lately. At some point, if you're not hitting, you gotta just stop shooting those. As a team, we shot 28.6% from deep, and MANY of those looks were wide open. We also shot well below our season average at the free throw line.

The one thing I'm pretty concerned about at this point is our defense. We couldn't stop Dennis Smith if our lives depended on it. He got whatever he wanted, and he actually missed about 3 wide open layups and a bunch of free throws. He probably should have had 40. Not sure how we deal with a guard like that. And since about 5-10 contending teams have a guy like that, it's going to take a lot of work before we can really call ourselves contenders.

It's a long road to get to where we need to be, but I have confidence that Coach K can bring us back. Stay positive, everyone.

Yes, you point regarding our inability to guard Smith was and is troubling. We had what many of us think is our best on the ball defender guarding him(Matt). After the game, Matt fell on his sword and took the blame for the loss because of that inability to guard Mr. Smith. Dennis is a talent, but as you stated there are many teams with guards similar to him. At one point in time, we were blaming Giles and Bolden and now we're blaming Tatum, Grayson, and Matt. I can't wait for Coach K to get back. If he can't get the team together playing good offense and good defense, I don't know who can. GoDuke!

jv001
01-24-2017, 10:38 AM
Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but I have to wonder how much of an effect did playing 2 games in 3 days have on this team. Only a couple of players are still at full strength. Long rest beat Miami, short rest lose at home to State even tho there were stretches that we looked good. Just don't have the physical strength to keep it up yet. They looked pretty tired throughout the entire game. If that is the case then it's not really that worrisome because the conditioning will come. Hopefully sooner than later

I'm sure the short turn around affected Amile. He was evidently hurting. Good point. GoDuke!

OldPhiKap
01-24-2017, 10:39 AM
Yes, you point regarding our inability to guard Smith was and is troubling. We had what many of us think is our best on the ball defender guarding him(Matt). After the game, Matt fell on his sword and took the blame for the loss because of that inability to guard Mr. Smith. Dennis is a talent, but as you stated there are many teams with guards similar to him. At one point in time, we were blaming Giles and Bolden and now we're blaming Tatum, Grayson, and Matt. I can't wait for Coach K to get back. If he can't get the team together playing good offense and good defense, I don't know who can. GoDuke!

Dennis Smith Jr. is a projected lottery pick and one of the top guards in his class -- if not the country.