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JBDuke
01-14-2017, 02:14 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

CDu
01-14-2017, 02:15 PM
We miss Jefferson. Not much more to say.

YmoBeThere
01-14-2017, 02:16 PM
This team is still missing on court leadership.

Indoor66
01-14-2017, 02:17 PM
Outside of Allen & Kennard, this is a very average team.

CameronDuke
01-14-2017, 02:17 PM
I appreciate everyone playing hard and the effort but Duke is undermanned right now. With Amile and Coach K back, they'll be a more cohesive unit. No one quit today though. Every game from here on out will be a battle. We will win more games and lose more games but the effort has to still show up.

DaleDuke7
01-14-2017, 02:18 PM
This team is like buying a brand new car, and constantly having it break down on you.

Bay Area Duke Fan
01-14-2017, 02:19 PM
Our one and done lottery picks don't look like college star players. Very disappointing.

lmb
01-14-2017, 02:19 PM
Tatum has been really disappointing. His decision-making needs a lot of work.
Grayson played tough. Glad to see him being more aggressive in looking for his shot. A bunch of his turnovers were because our bigs have hands of stone

jwillfan
01-14-2017, 02:19 PM
End of February with Amile back and K on the bench. If that doesn't happen we are an average team at best. Bolden is a big mystery to me. DeLaurier getting more minutes was odd. Not much more to say - Tatum tries to do too much, Giles still not up to speed and looks overwhelmed, Jackson ditto. Still - a road ACC loss by < 10 pts and terrible officiating isn't an awful thing. Next play. Go Duke!

fuse
01-14-2017, 02:19 PM
What was the line on this game?

I feel better about how we played regardless of the loss.

Likely a different thread (and I know the answer is yes anyway) not sure how either Giles or Bolden will be one and done.

In the way limited burn he got, I thought Bolden looked good.

Get healthy Amile- we are a different and better team with you.

Tatum plays to his averages and we win.

Still going to hold to the optimistic belief that there is enough season left for the team to come together and realize its potential.

Let's Go Duke!

TKG
01-14-2017, 02:20 PM
As a team we are still in October.
Just wait till Amile get's back.
Just wait till K gets back.
Just wait till Harry gets in game shape.

All is well.

Whatever gets you through the night.

As Indoor said above, we are a very avaerage basketball team.

AFL
01-14-2017, 02:20 PM
Outside of Allen & Kennard, this is a very average team.

I will second that.

NashvilleDevil
01-14-2017, 02:21 PM
Didn't lose by double digits on the road. That's something.

Giles continues to flash what made him so highly regarded.

Tatum is the player I am little disappointed in. He takes the Kobe emulation pretty serious. He needs to realize this is not his team and start playing within the team concept. Many on this board had talked about him being a blackhole on offense and me being an optimist thought once he got to Duke that would change.

Kjeffrey
01-14-2017, 02:21 PM
Outside of Allen & Kennard, this is a very average team.

The criticism seems to center on the defense but I think offense is also an issue for most of the team also. They just don't play as a team. Perhaps that is due to the injuries but maybe they just aren't gelling for other reasons.

mattman91
01-14-2017, 02:21 PM
Soft team.

Haven't lost faith yet, but we better turn it around FAST.

sagegrouse
01-14-2017, 02:21 PM
IMHO (where the H ran away with the spoon), the key part of the game was the spell in the first half when Louisville couldn't make a basket -- lots of bricks. We had a chance to pull out to a double-digit lead, which could have made the difference in the game, but we went cold as well.

Kfanarmy
01-14-2017, 02:21 PM
First Ive seen in a cpl weeks. Coaches and team combined, two decent performances: Kennard and Allen. I'm not sure any of the freshmen are as advertised. Complete inability to maintain focus on D. Another year where defense is a stark weakness. Know the injuries have impact, but don't see a lot of potential to fix the D this year.

devilnfla
01-14-2017, 02:21 PM
This might need the most disappointed I've ever been with a Duke team. With the exception of Kennard and Jefferson, coaching, upper class man and the one and dones have all underachieved.

DukeWarhead
01-14-2017, 02:22 PM
Capels audition not going well. This sucks. Most disappointing team in a while, so far.

Spanarkel
01-14-2017, 02:22 PM
This team is still missing on court leadership.



I legitimately question several aspects of the coaching effort: allowing 20+ seconds to be run off of the clock with one minute remaining in the game/somewhat random substitution pattern throughout the contest. Give Lousville credit: they played their desired hard-nosed game and knocked down shots all game. Somewhat alarmed by the report of UL's having 3 players wear helmets in practice due to concussion protocol(according to the announcers).

DBFAN
01-14-2017, 02:23 PM
I just don't know how a team that was expected to be so great, could be this bad when one player goes down. And what's worse, they don't get any better from game to game. Same old same old, play well first half, the play horrible right at the end of first half, only to come out in 2nd half and play just as bad. There has been no improvement from anyone. Giles still looks like he needs another entire year to be ready, Tatum can't figure out how to play on a team (to be fair I don't think coaches have given him too much to work with). Bolden for whatever reason just isn't allowed to play. I just don't know how having Jefferson would make that big of a difference

Bob Green
01-14-2017, 02:23 PM
This team has a couple of deficiencies which stand out to me:

1. No bench production. Frank Jackson made one 3 PT FG today and that is all the points produced by the bench.

2. Our young big men: Giles, Bolden, Jeter do not play good defense.

It's January, and I'm optimistic Jefferson will be back, so there is plenty of time for the team to develop.

AFL
01-14-2017, 02:23 PM
Our one and done lottery picks don't look like college star players. Very disappointing.

Jayson Tatum reminds me a lot of Carmelo Anthony. He is a great scorer, but a ball-stopper and a terrible teammate. He seems to be more concerned about getting his points, than he is about the success of the team.

Devilwin
01-14-2017, 02:24 PM
So much to fix here. Not sure if it's possible. If anyone can, K can. But this team has been snake bit all year. And frankly I don't see how even he can. Losing to teams like FSU and Louisville is nothing to be ashamed of, but we keep making the same mistakes over and over. And Tatum needs to quit trying to do so much. He's a great talent, but he's hurting us at times.. Just so, so disappointed with this team..

mattman91
01-14-2017, 02:24 PM
Didn't lose by double digits on the road. That's something.

Giles continues to flash what made him so highly regarded.

Tatum is the player I am little disappointed in. He takes the Kobe emulation pretty serious. He needs to realize this is not his team and start playing within the team concept. Many on this board had talked about him being a blackhole on offense and me being an optimist thought once he got to Duke that would change.

Bench Jah?

Bench...Tatum?

weezie
01-14-2017, 02:24 PM
I'm kind of weirded out.

kmspeaks
01-14-2017, 02:24 PM
Hopefully Troublemaker will hit us with some gifs, but to my untrained eye I thought Duke did better on ball screen defense for maybe the first 25 minutes. Still not a good job, but better. I think with all the injuries and discontinuity the best we can hope is the younger bigs continue to improve over the course of the year, Amile and K come back, and we're one of those "underseeded" teams whose season long record doesn't reflect the level they're playing at in March. The want to is there so I'll keep believing the execution will come, and if not I'll be back next year cheering for whoever is still in Durham.

SkyBrickey
01-14-2017, 02:24 PM
One positive note - I thought Bolden was aggressive and moving a lot better. I still believe the ceiling on this team is with a front court rotation of a healthy Jefferson, Giles and Bolden.

I'm far from giving up on this team. With Jefferson I think we win today and probably lose a close one at FSU. We will be a much, much better team at the end of the season if we can keep everyone healthy - including our Coach!

NashvilleDevil
01-14-2017, 02:24 PM
Capels audition not going well. This sucks. Most disappointing team in a while, so far.

Hold on. While 1-2 is not ideal let's not forget that 13 minutes into his first game he lost the heart and soul of the team. Then they had back to back road games against extremely tough teams in FSU and Louisville and he's had to rely on freshman who are still getting into shape and figuring out the college game.

OZZIE4DUKE
01-14-2017, 02:25 PM
Now come neither Grayson nor Luke took any 3's in the last minute when we still had a chance to come back? Driving to the hoop to miss a contested layup certainly wasn't working.

AFL
01-14-2017, 02:25 PM
I just don't know how a team that was expected to be so great, could be this bad when one player goes down. And what's worse, they don't get any better from game to game. Same old same old, play well first half, the play horrible right at the end of first half, only to come out in 2nd half and play just as bad. There has been no improvement from anyone. Giles still looks like he needs another entire year to be ready, Tatum can't figure out how to play on a team (to be fair I don't think coaches have given him too much to work with). Bolden for whatever reason just isn't allowed to play. I just don't know how having Jefferson would make that big of a difference

I totally agree. We would not have won today with Amile in the line-up.

Kfanarmy
01-14-2017, 02:27 PM
This team has a couple of deficiencies which stand out to me:

1. No bench production. Frank Jackson made one 3 PT FG today and that is all the points produced by the bench.

2. Our young big men: Giles, Bolden, Jeter do not play good defense.

It's January, and I'm optimistic Jefferson will be back, so there is plenty of time for the team to develop.

They also don"t play good offense.

azzefkram
01-14-2017, 02:28 PM
This team can really use a week off. Louisville is good but there were a boatload of unforced errors.

Indoor66
01-14-2017, 02:28 PM
Bench Jah?

Bench...Tatum?

Seems like a start to me. We had poor movement all day. As a result the ball stagnates and passing had no crispness. IMO, Tatum had a lot to do with that. Maybe some bench time would help his perspective.

Kfanarmy
01-14-2017, 02:29 PM
Hold on. While 1-2 is not ideal let's not forget that 13 minutes into his first game he lost the heart and soul of the team. Then they had back to back road games against extremely tough teams in FSU and Louisville and he's had to rely on freshman who are still getting into shape and figuring out the college game.

His sideline presence seems really sort of nonexistent.

DBFAN
01-14-2017, 02:30 PM
I wish there was some form of protest that the students could pull off next week when ESPN comes to Cameron

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-14-2017, 02:30 PM
This is a fascinating and frustrating season. So many obstacles have been placed in our way. We could go .500 from here out, or we could get some air in the tires and run the table from late February.

I would put even odds on both those scenarios.

Karl Beem
01-14-2017, 02:30 PM
I totally agree. We would not have won today with Amile in the line-up.

We need Amile back and Giles to take it to another level.

DukieInBrasil
01-14-2017, 02:33 PM
Be nice if somebody other than Kennard and Allen showd up to play today. Matt Jones gets a pass, as he played within his limitations and did pretty well.
Color me unimpressed by the entirety of our Fr. class in this game. Tatum was a huge net negative. His defense was atrocious and the laziness of his passes is really starting to get to me. Better put, i hope it's starting to get to his teammates so they can get him out of that habit. Doesn't seem like it's dawned on him yet that NCAA DI players know how to play.
Couple of games in a row that while the result is un-surprising due to lack of Sr captain and lack of coach, yet frustrating b/c lack of execution by our Fr. had a huge hand in the loss.

du_bb1
01-14-2017, 02:33 PM
This team has a couple of deficiencies which stand out to me:

1. No bench production. Frank Jackson made one 3 PT FG today and that is all the points produced by the bench.

2. Our young big men: Giles, Bolden, Jeter do not play good defense.

It's January, and I'm optimistic Jefferson will be back, so there is plenty of time for the team to develop.

The above--offense very stagnant today-certainly in part to great Louisville D--=-really need a true point guard-way too
many unforced errors/TOs and only 8 assists

getting Amile back will help on several levels and we will get better-but not as fast as we would like

AFL
01-14-2017, 02:34 PM
I hate to say it, but this year's team reminds me of the 2014 team with Jabari Parker and Rodney Hood. That team was loaded with talent, but never developed good chemistry together, and lost in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. I sure hope we don't see a similar result this year.

jipops
01-14-2017, 02:34 PM
10-8 conference finish still looking realistic with this team. But it is going to take some big turnarounds.

scottdude8
01-14-2017, 02:36 PM
Three thoughts:

-It's becoming clear to me that Giles, Tatum and Bolden missing a lot of pre-season and early season practice time has had much more of a negative impact on their development than anyone could have imagined. Giles and Bolden both seem lost on the court at times, while Tatum never seems to get shots in the flow of the offense.

-The offensive issues are things that can be fixed and I'm not overly concerned about, especially since a lot I think would be solved by having a reliable pair of hands inside (i.e. Amile). However, the fact that we are STILL struggling with ball-screen defense, which seems to have been our achilles heel for going on 3-4 years now, is unfathomable to me. The issue is no longer that we aren't athletic or long enough on the perimeter, which was the primary issue in the past. At this point I've got to think it's something that just isn't getting through to the team, which given how much K takes pride in man-to-man defense just doesn't make sense to me. The defensive effort is really lacking or the team just isn't learning the principles in practice, both of which are concerning.

-Regardless of those flaws, I think we would've won at least one of the two last games with Amile in the lineup. Today alone I saw easily three baskets on dump-offs downlow that were dropped or missed by our young bigs, but would've been a guaranteed basket with Amile. And Amile also masks a ton of the defensive issues mentioned above. Despite the final scores, both games were competitive through the first 30 minutes until our bigs got worn down. With Amile we're still a National Title contender. Without him once again we're going to struggle to get a Top 4 seed. Gotta get him healthy.

NashvilleDevil
01-14-2017, 02:36 PM
Bench Jah?

Bench...Tatum?

Ingram got benched last year and it worked.

fraggler
01-14-2017, 02:38 PM
This might need the most disappointed I've ever been with a Duke team.

This is the most disappointed I've been with fellow Duke fans since they booed Capel as a player.

DukieInBrasil
01-14-2017, 02:39 PM
I just don't know how a team that was expected to be so great, could be this bad when one player goes down. And what's worse, they don't get any better from game to game. Same old same old, play well first half, the play horrible right at the end of first half, only to come out in 2nd half and play just as bad. There has been no improvement from anyone. Giles still looks like he needs another entire year to be ready, Tatum can't figure out how to play on a team (to be fair I don't think coaches have given him too much to work with). Bolden for whatever reason just isn't allowed to play. I just don't know how having Jefferson would make that big of a difference

Because Louisville scored at will over Bolden. 3 possessions in the 2nd half in a row that they scored right over Bolden, including a +1.
Unless something big happens, i don't see how Bolden is a OAD. Giles is looking iffy at this point. I know everyone's in love with Tatum's game, but he's been a net negative too.

MaxAMillion
01-14-2017, 02:39 PM
I just don't know how a team that was expected to be so great, could be this bad when one player goes down. And what's worse, they don't get any better from game to game. Same old same old, play well first half, the play horrible right at the end of first half, only to come out in 2nd half and play just as bad. There has been no improvement from anyone. Giles still looks like he needs another entire year to be ready, Tatum can't figure out how to play on a team (to be fair I don't think coaches have given him too much to work with). Bolden for whatever reason just isn't allowed to play. I just don't know how having Jefferson would make that big of a difference

Really? If you told me before the season started that the head coach would miss weeks of time with surgery, the senior leader of the defense would go down injured, the starting PG would be suspended and have to deal with being enemy number one all year, and 3 of the top 4 freshmen would miss a month with injury, I would have predicted plenty of losses.

This is not a video game where players are given defined attributes and they play to those skills. A team has to be formed on both ends of the floor and that requires time, coaching, and repetition. These players have not received any of this for all the reasons already listed. You can expect more losses and disjointed play but I think you will eventually see improvement if K and Jefferson can come back healthy the rest of the year.

I personally don't get that bothered about the losing. This program has been as good as any in the country for 30 plus years. A down year every now and then can be expected. Plus I like seeing some of the disappointment in one of the most entitled fan bases in sports. You can go on other Duke boards and see K and the players get knocked routinely (as if the team didn't just win another title two years ago).

BobBender
01-14-2017, 02:40 PM
This team is still missing on court leadership.

More likely missing a pure facilitator at PG. I believe losing Thornton to transfer has hurt, Jackson is another all-star but he's a SG in reality. And PG is not Grayson's position.
Also, the OAD approach makes for spotty defense, especially the first half of the season

porkpa
01-14-2017, 02:42 PM
After the Florida State game, I thought we could be all done. Now I've got more hope.
Our defense is abysmal. When Amile gets back, it will be considerably better.
Grayson, Luke and Matt each played around 35 minutes or so the against a tough, physical, pressing defense. They were exhausted, but they never gave up.
I think that when and if everybody gets healthy, we will still be a force to be reckoned with.

Devilwin
01-14-2017, 02:43 PM
I firmly believe the talent is there, but time is running out on this bunch. Someone needs a light to go on in their head, and get this team to jell. That's all they need. If it doesn't happen soon, well, I don't want to see a team pre season number one not even make the Dance..And laugh if you must, but it is possible if we don't right the ship..

DukieInBrasil
01-14-2017, 02:43 PM
I totally agree. We would not have won today with Amile in the line-up.

totally disagree. With Amile, we probably don't suffer the weak play of Bolden or Jeter. This team was destroying fools with Amile in the lineup. Substituting an experienced leader with overwhelmed Fr. and an overwhelmed So. will cause big drop-off in productivity.

heyman25
01-14-2017, 02:46 PM
As a Duke Fan this team is a huge disappointment. Yes injuries and Coach K out does not help. Everyone on the team needs to play smarter. Louisville is really not that good, but they hustled more than Duke and won the game. If our team does not shape up soon, we will be in the bottom half of the ACC. I think Kennard and Allen were ok today, but not great. Jefferson is missed, but we were supposed to be great with out him coming back. Tatum did not finish any drives today. Jackson kept missing wide open 3's.Giles and Bolden look like they are in game shape, so hopefully the rest of their skills will start develop. It needs to happen against Miami. We are running out of time to right this sinking ship. Road games are tough, but Duke does not play very smart basketball. It is possible we will be very good in March and I get to eat crow. I hope so. Our 1st 10 players need a lot of practice time next week.

Indoor66
01-14-2017, 02:47 PM
I firmly believe the talent is there, but time is running out on this bunch. Someone needs a light to go on in their head, and get this team to jell. That's all they need. If it doesn't happen soon, well, I don't want to see a team pre season number one not even make the Dance..And laugh if you must, but it is possible if we don't right the ship..

The Press on our freshmen far exceeds their performance, even taking the injuries into account.

Spanarkel
01-14-2017, 02:50 PM
Because Louisville scored at will over Bolden. 3 possessions in the 2nd half in a row that they scored right over Bolden, including a +1.Unless something big happens, i don't see how Bolden is a OAD. Giles is looking iffy at this point. I know everyone's in love with Tatum's game, but he's been a net negative too.


Sometimes the offensive player actually makes a good play that can't always be stopped. Given the physicality of the modern game, I feel that over the course of the season to come Bolden gives us a better chance with interior defense than does Jeter, but I like others am waiting for Bolden to start making some plays: I believe that he ultimately can.

YmoBeThere
01-14-2017, 02:53 PM
Really? If you told me before the season started that the head coach would miss weeks of time with surgery, the senior leader of the defense would go down injured, the starting PG would be suspended and have to deal with being enemy number one all year, and 3 of the top 4 freshmen would miss a month with injury, I would have predicted plenty of losses.

This is not a video game where players are given defined attributes and they play to those skills. A team has to be formed on both ends of the floor and that requires time, coaching, and repetition. These players have not received any of this for all the reasons already listed. You can expect more losses and disjointed play but I think you will eventually see improvement if K and Jefferson can come back healthy the rest of the year.

I personally don't get that bothered about the losing. This program has been as good as any in the country for 30 plus years. A down year every now and then can be expected. Plus I like seeing some of the disappointment in one of the most entitled fan bases in sports. You can go on other Duke boards and see K and the players get knocked routinely (as if the team didn't just win another title two years ago).

There are other Duke boards?

duke4ever19
01-14-2017, 02:53 PM
totally disagree. With Amile, we probably don't suffer the weak play of Bolden or Jeter. This team was destroying fools with Amile in the lineup. Substituting an experienced leader with overwhelmed Fr. and an overwhelmed So. will cause big drop-off in productivity.

I disagreed with you about Vrank in the live thread (thinking the coaching staff must have a reason to have him on the bench . . . such is my blind faith in them), but heck, I think you might be right. It certainly can't hurt to give him a look in live-game situations.


Also, did ESPN take the day off from updating games on their website? None of the live games are updating. Even the Duke v. Louisville game is still in pre-game mode.

Troublemaker
01-14-2017, 02:56 PM
Hopefully Troublemaker will hit us with some gifs, but to my untrained eye I thought Duke did better on ball screen defense for maybe the first 25 minutes. Still not a good job, but better. I think with all the injuries and discontinuity the best we can hope is the younger bigs continue to improve over the course of the year, Amile and K come back, and we're one of those "underseeded" teams whose season long record doesn't reflect the level they're playing at in March. The want to is there so I'll keep believing the execution will come, and if not I'll be back next year cheering for whoever is still in Durham.

Yes, I probably will make some GIFs during Duke's bye week. I have a different take from you on the ball screen defense. In the middle twenty minutes of the game, Louisville burned us just as badly as FSU did, just in a different way because of the different technique we were using on ball screen defense, i.e. we hedged instead of iced today. When icing isn't performed correctly, you will have guards beating your big men inside the paint for layups and for short lobs, which is what occurred against FSU. When hedging (and the choreography behind it) isn't performed correctly, you will give up long passes to rolling big men running free, which is what occurred against Louisville. So even though Louisville didn't burn us with as many layups from guards, they were still burning us.

However, in the final 8 minutes or so of the game, I thought our choreography on ball-screen defense was better. Score-wise, the Cardinals kept us at arm's length by making some tough outside shots. If they had shot poorly, I thought we had a chance to make it an interesting game there.

I was encouraged that Harry looked more athletic down the stretch of the game. I thought Marques did a nice job hedging in his brief stint.

But we can't turn the ball over 18 times. Once again, I thought the offense was a slightly bigger culprit than the defense. I give the offense a D and I give the defense a C-.

Long-term, I still expect this team to get much better, and I still expect that I'll be able to read this thread later on in the season and laugh.

TKG
01-14-2017, 03:00 PM
Interesting piece on BleacherReport quoting Capel as saying something to the effect of , Harry Giles might not be up to speed for us this year.

Heaven's Guardian
01-14-2017, 03:02 PM
On a positive note, Javin got some minutes and gave real effort on the floor. He had a couple of mistakes, but he moves his feet on defense and gives effort that we aren't seeing from Harry and Marques. For all the injury issues, I was hoping to see improvement from those two on the defensive end by now, and it just isn't there. I'd drop Marques from the rotation entirely and put Harry on notice that we have other guys who are ready to take minutes. Our ceiling isn't as high without them, but we don't need dominant bigs to win a title this year. We just need willing and capable defenders, and I see no value in giving minutes to one-year players who aren't producing, as we won't get any future benefit.

fuse
01-14-2017, 03:05 PM
One other thought- Tatum is expecting superstar calls and then whining when it doesn't come.
He'd benefit from a "Hurley video".

Devilwin
01-14-2017, 03:05 PM
Yes, I probably will make some GIFs during Duke's bye week. I have a different take from you on the ball screen defense. In the middle twenty minutes of the game, Louisville burned us just as badly as FSU did, just in a different way because of the different technique we were using on ball screen defense, i.e. we hedged instead of iced today. When icing isn't performed correctly, you will have guards beating your big men inside the paint for layups and for short lobs, which is what occurred against FSU. When hedging (and the choreography behind it) isn't performed correctly, you will give up long passes to rolling big men running free, which is what occurred against Louisville. So even though Louisville didn't burn us with as many layups from guards, they were still burning us.

However, in the final 8 minutes or so of the game, I thought our choreography on ball-screen defense was better. Score-wise, the Cardinals kept us at arm's length by making some tough outside shots. If they had shot poorly, I thought we had a chance to make it an interesting game there.

I was encouraged that Harry looked more athletic down the stretch of the game. I thought Marques did a nice job hedging in his brief stint.

But we can't turn the ball over 18 times. Once again, I thought the offense was a slightly bigger culprit than the defense. I give the offense a D and I give the defense a C-.

Long-term, I still expect this team to get much better, and I still expect that I'll be able to read this thread later on in the season and laugh.

I swear I hope you do get to laugh at this..

NashvilleDevil
01-14-2017, 03:10 PM
I swear I hope you do get to laugh at this..

I think we will be laughing at this and your posts in particular will be highlighted when Duke has another bad stretch in the future.

Saratoga2
01-14-2017, 03:12 PM
I will take the opportunity to see some good coming from this loss. We are getting our starters and our young bigs some valuable experience against teams with large athletic and well coached players. Its hard to gauge how valuable this will be for Grayson, Luke, Jayson, Harry, Matt and Frank. I think it will show up later on since we will not face more difficult defensive teams than FSU and Louisville, especially on the road. My takeaways on the positive side

Grayson has become our playmaking leader and had a very good day against a really tough defense. He has handled the constant booing in stride. He appears fully healthy.
Luke continues to find ways to score despite being a focal point of the Louisville defense. he really had no opportunities for 3 point shots today but still got 17. His switching and defense is improving.
A lot of negatives in the thread regarding Jayson but I see a freshman who can score against a very good and aggressive defense and who got stuck in rebounding and blocking shots. He is already the most advanced freshman on the team and will learn from his mistakes. His upside is tremendous.
Harry had a good day and has offensive potential and is a good rebounder. The PT he is getting will get him in better shape. Like all or freshmen big men, he has a lot to learn and I presume this game today will further his development and understanding.
Matt preformed about as well as he is likely to do but perhaps a game like this can advance his leadership skill. He can become another coach on the floor along with Amile when he returns.
Frank was put under pressure constantly when he brought the ball up and was trying to make plays. While he was largely unsuccessful today, he will get a lot more coaching moments and perhaps will play smarter going forward.

I don't think either Chase or Marques did enough to feel they are more than backup players at this point, and DeLaurier is enough of a project that his value may not be felt until next season, but he does have potential.

I would think we have a solid starting team of Grayson, Luke, Jayson, Harry and Matt going forward with Amile taking a starting role back upon return and Frank coming off the bench and getting solid playing time. Chase and Marques will be needed but shouldn't be expected to contribute much more than big bodies and fouls to give. We are going to win a lot of games going forward, especially as Jayson figures how to channel his special talent and Harry becomes the player we had hoped for. We have the makings of a team that could make a deep run in March.

gofurman
01-14-2017, 03:16 PM
totally disagree. With Amile, we probably don't suffer the weak play of Bolden or Jeter. This team was destroying fools with Amile in the lineup. Substituting an experienced leader with overwhelmed Fr. and an overwhelmed So. will cause big drop-off in productivity.

This. Don't get discouraged - IF WE CAN HAVE AMILE. Amile can take 7+ points away from Louisville on rotation D and adds 7 to Dukes score. Do the math. Things don't occur in a vacuum. W Amile our tie in second half today could easily have been a 7 point lead? Maybe more. Should a team w so many OADs be that ordinary without Amile? Probably not. I agree. I too doubt the talent of Bolden etc as OAD. Not long term , but OAD??? that said I really believe we are top ten w Amile easily. Have to have Grayson. Luke. Amile. No Grayson. Lose to vt. Everyone playing ? Crush GT and beat BC (.first half w amile). No amile? Losses at fsu and Louisville due to horrible D inside. It's that simple. With Amile in we probably win today. Not sure v FSU in Tallahassee ?

On another side, maybe we have Bolden and Jackson next year which is nice. Look at Kennard. Best thing about Freshman?? They become sophomores

Pray for Amile's return. - are we sure he coming back ??? At least by February????

A positive? Good to have a week off now probably

Devilwin
01-14-2017, 03:16 PM
I think we will be laughing at this and your posts in particular will be highlighted when Duke has another bad stretch in the future.

Meaning?

gofurman
01-14-2017, 03:19 PM
totally disagree. With Amile, we probably don't suffer the weak play of Bolden or Jeter. This team was destroying fools with Amile in the lineup. Substituting an experienced leader with overwhelmed Fr. and an overwhelmed So. will cause big drop-off in productivity.

Plus w Amile it's not just D and more O points for us but the team has more confidence! We have all noted how the team at times seems hesitant to dish the ball to Jeter on the drive... Think how that changes w Amile ..... Everything
Changes

NashvilleDevil
01-14-2017, 03:19 PM
Meaning?

Meaning that this happens every year and every year posters get really negative about the team's prospects and Duke always ends up fine. Just like they did last year and the title year.

kshepinthehouse
01-14-2017, 03:22 PM
I think two things hurt us today, both of which Amile can help with. I haven't checked the stats but it really seemed that we had very few offensive rebounds. As great a rebounder as Giles is it seems he doesn't get many offensively. Amile getting a few adds more to our point total.

We don't get easy baskets. When Amile is playing, you can dump it into him and get an easy two. Seems like we have to work really hard to get tough baskets without him.

Monmouth77
01-14-2017, 03:23 PM
Looking for silver linings, I'd say that Louisville and FSU are two of the longest/tallest and best defensive teams we'll face all year. They neutralized our best weapons: overall team size and 3 point shooting. From a matchup standpoint, those two games on the road, seem like they could be our toughest tests all year, and they came at a bad time for the team's development. We now have two weeks straight where we play winnable games and don't have to travel further than Winston Salem. Now is the time to get it turned around, and I think we will.

Devilwin
01-14-2017, 03:26 PM
Meaning that this happens every year and every year posters get really negative about the team's prospects and Duke always ends up fine. Just like they did last year and the title year.

You're right for the most part, but something just feels different, like we cannot get over the oncoming rush of injuries and Coach's surgery, and the distraction of Grayson Allen. Seems like we are always looking over our shoulder.

DukeWarhead
01-14-2017, 03:26 PM
Just crazy that with all these great recruiting classes of late, we can't seem to win the ACC regular season, much less the ACC tourney. Pffffft. Sure, 2015 was awesome but this team isn't in that team's league. (not yet, and doubt it will ever be.)

DBFAN
01-14-2017, 03:27 PM
So I posted my negative sky is falling post earlier, but I did notice some positive stuff too. First, they were able to compete a little longer today than FSU game. We should be fair about the fact that BOTH GAMES between FSU and UL were pretty close for the majority of the game, then the wheels came off. I imagine that each game they will compete a little more and more. So that tells me that the Physical conditioning and mental conditioning are getting better each time out. I would love for it to evolve quicker, but I will take what I can get. Right now this team just needs this week off, and a little home cooking. I really think Duke wins the next 3 games, but right now we just need the next one. It's hard sometimes to remember that as great of talents these kids are, they are still just kids. They say they don't pay attention to media but that's not possible. Right now I bet those players are more down on themselves than we think. They know what the expectations were and are, and they know they haven't been able to live up to them YET, but if they are competing longer that tells me that injuries may not be that much of an issue anymore, now it's simply the repetition of playing together. I truly believe that something will click for them in the next few games. The same thing happened with Zoubek and the entire season changed. I will be honest tho I am as perplexed as anyone about Bolden, but he may have/be taking longer to heal than the others. We saw him play healthy early in season and he looked pretty flipping good. He hasn't lost his skill set but his body isn't quite right yet which makes him panic a little and make bad decisions.

OZ
01-14-2017, 03:29 PM
Capels audition not going well. This sucks. Most disappointing team in a while, so far.

After ONE week and THREE games, you really think this is on Capel?

kAzE
01-14-2017, 03:31 PM
I'm not sure why there's THIS much negativity in this thread . . . we lost by single digits on the road without Coach K and Amile Jefferson, and they shot much better from 3 than they usually do. It's okay . . . . just relax . . . this is not what we will look like in a month. If Louisville doesn't hit 2 of those long bombs, it's a 1 point game with less than a minute. We were missing our two most important team leaders. I think it's a bit silly to have expected this Duke team to win this particular game.

That said, our defensive effort was still very lacking. Communication on ball screen needs to improve, and I think that particularly will improve immensely if and when Amile returns.

The other major problem from this contest was the turnovers. Louisville took 59 shots to our 47. Many of those extra possessions came off our sloppy ball handling and decision making. A good example was the inbounds steal that led to an easy Louisville layup. They had 3 guys back pressing and we had only one guy in the back court to receive the inbound. That just can't happen. These are just bad mental mistakes. Grayson putting up 3 assists to 6 turnovers is not going to win us many games. We can't have only 29 points combined outside of him and Luke. Even though Grayson himself had some nice scoring numbers, he has to get the other guys involved in order for us to win games, and that starts with taking care of the ball.

This was probably the best defense we will face this year, with all due respect to Virginia. It's not surprising that we had one of our worst offensive showings. The freshmen simply need to get better, and they will. We have an entire week to get better before the Miami game. Hopefully Amile gets healthy in the next 7 days, and hopefully everyone has some great practices. I'm not that concerned over this Louisville game, but it will definitely be disappointing if we don't show some progress against Miami with an entire week to prepare and improve.

Spanarkel
01-14-2017, 03:32 PM
I think two things hurt us today, both of which Amile can help with. I haven't checked the stats but it really seemed that we had very few offensive rebounds. As great a rebounder as Giles is it seems he doesn't get many offensively. Amile getting a few adds more to our point total.
We don't get easy baskets. When Amile is playing, you can dump it into him and get an easy two. Seems like we have to work really hard to get tough baskets without him.


Counting today's game, HG has 16 OR in 93 minutes and MJ has 42 in 477 minutes. I feel that Harry is on the verge of bustin' loose for the Devils.

DukeWarhead
01-14-2017, 03:33 PM
After ONE week and THREE games, you really think this is on Capel?

You really think the head coach has no bearing on the last three games? Duke hasn't played well in the past 5 of 6 halves. So no, Capel's audition isn't going well This far, but let's hope it gets better. Coaches are judged by wins and losses.

weezie
01-14-2017, 03:34 PM
One other thought- Tatum is expecting superstar calls and then whining when it doesn't come.
He'd benefit from a "Hurley video".

Yeah, but I might disagree a tad when obvious calls are overlooked. Then again, we get all the calls so what's the beef? :(

Bob Green
01-14-2017, 03:34 PM
I think two things hurt us today, both of which Amile can help with. I haven't checked the stats but it really seemed that we had very few offensive rebounds. As great a rebounder as Giles is it seems he doesn't get many offensively. Amile getting a few adds more to our point total.

We don't get easy baskets. When Amile is playing, you can dump it into him and get an easy two. Seems like we have to work really hard to get tough baskets without him.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/gametracker/boxscore/NCAAB_20170114_DUKE@LVILLE

Giles had six rebounds today with three being offensive.

DukeWarhead
01-14-2017, 03:35 PM
At least Grayson didn't trip anybody. So there's that...

budwom
01-14-2017, 03:36 PM
One other thought- Tatum is expecting superstar calls and then whining when it doesn't come.
He'd benefit from a "Hurley video".

I was thinking the same thing. He needs to change his mind set a bit...

OZ
01-14-2017, 03:43 PM
You really think the head coach has no bearing on the last three games? Duke hasn't played well in the past 5 of 6 halves. So no, Capel's audition isn't going well This far, but let's hope it gets better. Coaches are judged by wins and losses.


Why stop at 5/6 halves, lets go back to 9/10 halves ago - possibly our worse play in years? Who was that Coach?

Judge by wins and losses? In that case, Coach K gets the praise/condemnation for these.

gofurman
01-14-2017, 03:43 PM
You really think the head coach has no bearing on the last three games? Duke hasn't played well in the past 5 of 6 halves. So no, Capel's audition isn't going well This far, but let's hope it gets better. Coaches are judged by wins and losses.

Two road games v fsu and Louisville without our all-acc center? ONE half at home w Amile vs BC ... And Capel looked liked a genius - Coincidence ? I think not

As a friend said- it ain't just Xs and Os, it's Jimmys and Joe's. And we are missing Jimmy at the 5

NashvilleDevil
01-14-2017, 03:48 PM
Just crazy that with all these great recruiting classes of late, we can't seem to win the ACC regular season, much less the ACC tourney. Pffffft. Sure, 2015 was awesome but this team isn't in that team's league. (not yet, and doubt it will ever be.)

You kidding with this? They are 2 years removed from a title and you post this? This team's race is not even over and you're packing it in? You should probably sit the next couple plays out.

drummerdevil
01-14-2017, 03:49 PM
At least Grayson didn't trip anybody. So there's that...

No, but did you see when he grabbed someone's arm? I get that he took a lot of contact before that, but he took a lot of contact before the tripping incidents, too. Grabbing someone's arm like that and pulling them to the floor with you can be considered tripping, too, and I can tell he knew that because he looked very ticked off at himself sitting on the bench shortly afterwards.

(Sorry, someone's gotta play the [light blue] devil's advocate. Sorry it had to be me. I've been one of the biggest Grayson fans since his freshman year, when he made even more mistakes than the freshman we seem to love to hate on this year.)

devildeac
01-14-2017, 03:49 PM
At least Grayson didn't trip anybody. So there's that...

Yea, but he did get his face of front of this guy's hand/arm. Twice. Once before he went down and then another after he's on the ground. You make the call:

https://twitter.com/CorkGaines?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp% 7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

And did bilas actually have the audacity to say it was Allen's fault and/or deserved what he got? If so, then jay really is pathetic.

Spanarkel
01-14-2017, 03:52 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/gametracker/boxscore/NCAAB_20170114_DUKE@LVILLE

Giles had six rebounds today with three being offensive.



Counting today's game, HG has 16 OR in 93 minutes and MJ has 42 in 477 minutes. I feel that Harry is on the verge of bustin' loose for the Devils(post no. 75 in this thread)

devildeac
01-14-2017, 03:52 PM
No, but did you see when he grabbed someone's arm? I get that he took a lot of contact before that, but he took a lot of contact before the tripping incidents, too. Grabbing someone's arm like that and pulling them to the floor with you can be considered tripping, too, and I can tell he knew that because he looked very ticked off at himself sitting on the bench shortly afterwards.

(Sorry, someone's gotta play the [light blue] devil's advocate. Sorry it had to be me. I've been one of the biggest Grayson fans since his freshman year, when he made even more mistakes than the freshman we seem to love to hate on this year.)


Yea, but he did get his face of front of this guy's hand/arm. Twice. Once before he went down and then another after he's on the ground. You make the call:

https://twitter.com/CorkGaines?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp% 7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

And did bilas actually have the audacity to say it was Allen's fault and/or deserved what he got? If so, then jay really is pathetic.

It's a shame that twitter link doesn't show him getting hit in the face/nose first. Maybe that's why he has his hand covering his nose as he goes down/hits the floor.

weezie
01-14-2017, 03:55 PM
Where's MOTM?!

vick
01-14-2017, 03:56 PM
And did bilas actually have the audacity to say it was Allen's fault and/or deserved what he got? If so, then jay really is pathetic.

No. He said, correctly, that players who make a habit of "selling" calls as much as Grayson does aren't very likely to get the benefit of the doubt.

NashvilleDevil
01-14-2017, 03:58 PM
No. He said, correctly, that players who make a habit of "selling" calls as much as Grayson does aren't very likely to get the benefit of the doubt.

That's not a great take by Bilas either.

tulsuduke
01-14-2017, 03:58 PM
The struggles of the past three weeks are primarily a symptom of the season long lack of continuity. There's not been a single constant on this team other than Kennard's elite play on offense. And now the team is missing not only it's most critical defensive player in AJ, but the G.O.A.T. coach. You just hope that the team can get all of the pieces back in time and get some reps in before the ACC tournament so a clear identity and team hierarchy can be established.

CDu
01-14-2017, 04:01 PM
That's not a great take by Bilas either.

Actually it is spot-on. I am sure officials spent a decent chunk of the offseason getting lectured on not buying players' selling/faking fouls. Allen flails his body about as much as anyone to sell calls. It worked great last year. Officials seem much more reluctant to give him calls this year.

Bluedog
01-14-2017, 04:08 PM
Just crazy that with all these great recruiting classes of late, we can't seem to win the ACC regular season, much less the ACC tourney. Pffffft. Sure, 2015 was awesome but this team isn't in that team's league. (not yet, and doubt it will ever be.)

That team didn't win the ACC regular season or tournament either...(or maybe that's your point).

DBFAN
01-14-2017, 04:12 PM
Actually it is spot-on. I am sure officials spent a decent chunk of the offseason getting lectured on not buying players' selling/faking fouls. Allen flails his body about as much as anyone to sell calls. It worked great last year. Officials seem much more reluctant to give him calls this year.

Not even close. If Allens horrible crimes of tripping is means for punishment then why is slapping a kid in face not. Bleacher Report now jumping on it with Allen pulls down guy, gets slapped in the face, and deserved it. If Duke fans feel the same way then I feel bad for Grayson. Believe it or not every team has been given a green light to do what ever they want to Grayson, and people like Bilas and ESPN who excuse it are wretched for doing so

Spanarkel
01-14-2017, 04:18 PM
Not even close. If Allens horrible crimes of tripping is means for punishment then why is slapping a kid in face not. Bleacher Report now jumping on it with Allen pulls down guy, gets slapped in the face, and deserved it. If Duke fans feel the same way then I feel bad for Grayson. Believe it or not every team has been given a green light to do what ever they want to Grayson, and people like Bilas and ESPN who excuse it are wretched for doing so

Amen. The New York Post website proclaims "Grayson Allen Karma Slaps Him in the Face." I would like to see anyone who thinks that this slap was unintentional post just that here on this thread. Donovan Mitchell clearly intentionally slapped Grayson Allen today.

CDu
01-14-2017, 04:24 PM
Not even close. If Allens horrible crimes of tripping is means for punishment then why is slapping a kid in face not. Bleacher Report now jumping on it with Allen pulls down guy, gets slapped in the face, and deserved it. If Duke fans feel the same way then I feel bad for Grayson. Believe it or not every team has been given a green light to do what ever they want to Grayson, and people like Bilas and ESPN who excuse it are wretched for doing so

You are conflating different things.

Bilas was talking about Allen's flailing to draw fouls costing him the call in the live-ball play. It had nothing to do with his tripping incidents or the slap in the face.

The slap in the face was unacceptable. But that isn't what I am or Bilas was talking about.

Troublemaker
01-14-2017, 04:24 PM
Not even close. If Allens horrible crimes of tripping is means for punishment then why is slapping a kid in face not. Bleacher Report now jumping on it with Allen pulls down guy, gets slapped in the face, and deserved it. If Duke fans feel the same way then I feel bad for Grayson. Believe it or not every team has been given a green light to do what ever they want to Grayson, and people like Bilas and ESPN who excuse it are wretched for doing so


Amen. The New York Post website proclaims "Grayson Allen Karma Slaps Him in the Face." I would like to see anyone who thinks that this slap was unintentional post just that here on this thread. Donovan Mitchell clearly intentionally slapped Grayson Allen today.

I most definitely do not agree with Bleacher Report or the NY Post.

I hope that thread taking suggestions for how the Duke community can show its support for Grayson will prove fruitful. He could use some support and love, for sure. I'll try to add some of my own ideas.

Edouble
01-14-2017, 04:25 PM
Amen. The New York Post website proclaims "Grayson Allen Karma Slaps Him in the Face." I would like to see anyone who thinks that this slap was unintentional post just that here on this thread. Donovan Mitchell clearly intentionally slapped Grayson Allen today.

The only karma in today's game was Donovan Mitchell having to go to the locker room with an ankle injury a few plays after slapping Grayson in the face. One of the rare times I have not felt at all bad about a player on the opposing team going down. The slap was as intentional as it gets, which is to say it was a play, not on the ball, above the neck. Mitchell should have had to stay in the locker room for the entire remainder of the game.

Kfanarmy
01-14-2017, 04:28 PM
That's not a great take by Bilas either.

Bilas is tiresome to listen to.

DukieInBrasil
01-14-2017, 04:31 PM
I'm not sure why there's THIS much negativity in this thread . . . we lost by single digits on the road without Coach K and Amile Jefferson, and they shot much better from 3 than they usually do. It's okay . . . . just relax . . . this is not what we will look like in a month. If Louisville doesn't hit 2 of those long bombs, it's a 1 point game with less than a minute. We were missing our two most important team leaders. I think it's a bit silly to have expected this Duke team to win this particular game.

That said, our defensive effort was still very lacking. Communication on ball screen needs to improve, and I think that particularly will improve immensely if and when Amile returns.

The other major problem from this contest was the turnovers. Louisville took 59 shots to our 47. Many of those extra possessions came off our sloppy ball handling and decision making. A good example was the inbounds steal that led to an easy Louisville layup. They had 3 guys back pressing and we had only one guy in the back court to receive the inbound. That just can't happen. These are just bad mental mistakes. Grayson putting up 3 assists to 6 turnovers is not going to win us many games. We can't have only 29 points combined outside of him and Luke. Even though Grayson himself had some nice scoring numbers, he has to get the other guys involved in order for us to win games, and that starts with taking care of the ball.

This was probably the best defense we will face this year, with all due respect to Virginia. It's not surprising that we had one of our worst offensive showings. The freshmen simply need to get better, and they will. We have an entire week to get better before the Miami game. Hopefully Amile gets healthy in the next 7 days, and hopefully everyone has some great practices. I'm not that concerned over this Louisville game, but it will definitely be disappointing if we don't show some progress against Miami with an entire week to prepare and improve.

Turnovers were a big problem, i would be hesitant about putting much blame on Grayson. I remember at least a couple of nice passes from him that got fumbled by the receiver, Bolden in particular. The drive and dish to inside players just didn't work as our interior players don't know where to be and passes to the perimeter weren't yielding assists due to UL's defense. Grayson tried to get others involved, realized nobody was able to anything and then started scoring himself, as he was much more efficient than anyone else, well alongside Luke.

Spanarkel
01-14-2017, 04:31 PM
Amen. The New York Post website proclaims "Grayson Allen Karma Slaps Him in the Face." I would like to see anyone who thinks that this slap was unintentional post just that here on this thread. Donovan Mitchell clearly intentionally slapped Grayson Allen today.

You can see the intentionality of the slap just prior to its occurring by looking at the photo of Allen and Mitchell on the floor on the SB/DBR Home Page accompanying the article "So, what happens when Allen gets hit"(or words to that effect). The sneer in Mitchell's face and the hyperextension of his fingers declare his intentionality.

freshmanjs
01-14-2017, 04:32 PM
This is now 5 of the last 7 seasons that have been badly derailed by injury. It's a stunning and remarkable run of bad luck. What can you do?

JMarley50
01-14-2017, 04:34 PM
The above--offense very stagnant today-certainly in part to great Louisville D--=-really need a true point guard-way too
many unforced errors/TOs and only 8 assists

getting Amile back will help on several levels and we will get better-but not as fast as we would like

I don't get the obsession with a "true point guard." Grayson has been performing beautifully at point. He had what, 9 assists in the first half the other day? Had people knocked down open shots and caught the ball in the paint, he could have easily surpassed Hurley's single game record. But ultimately, it doesn't matter who you have running point when everyone is being lazy and standing around away from the ball. Also we have one or two guys who seem to care more about their stats than passing to get a better shot. In regards to turnovers, there have been a number of turnovers in the last two games that were not even remotely Grayson's fault, i.e. Bolden's stone hands underneath the basket today.

CDu
01-14-2017, 04:35 PM
This is now 5 of the last 7 seasons that have been badly derailed by injury. It's a stunning and remarkable run of bad luck. What can you do?

At least this year there is at least time for this season to get back on track.

NashvilleDevil
01-14-2017, 04:38 PM
This is now 5 of the last 7 seasons that have been badly derailed by injury. It's a stunning and remarkable run of bad luck. What can you do?

Well it's good to know that those 2 years not plagued by injuries were banner hangers.

Bob Green
01-14-2017, 04:38 PM
You can see the intentionality of the slap just prior to its occurring by looking at the photo of Allen and Mitchell on the floor on the SB/DBR Home Page accompanying the article "So, what happens when Allen gets hit"(or words to that effect). The sneer in Mitchell's face and the hyperextension of his fingers declare his intentionality.

Really? I can't tell anything from the picture. Seeing as I have no idea whether it was intentional or not, I opt to give the young man the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps Mitchell did it on purpose but I don't know that.

DukieInBrasil
01-14-2017, 04:42 PM
Duke missed 8 FTs today, including the front end of a 1-n-1, for a chance at 9 points in a 9 point loss.
It may be unreasonable to expect to make 100% of FTs, but Duke left several points on the floor. Grayson, once near automatic at the line, has now missed 7 in his last 3 games and is under 80% for the year. Several of the FT misses came at inopportune times as they killed momentum, i'm thinking of Giles 3 strait misses the most.
Overall we shot 71.4% for the game, which is pretty good, but it always hurts when the number of FTs missed is equal to or more than the margin of victory.

freshmanjs
01-14-2017, 04:42 PM
Well it's good to know that those 2 years not plagued by injuries were banner hangers.

One of them was (2015). The other was not close to a banner hanger (2014).

Spanarkel
01-14-2017, 04:42 PM
Really? I can't tell anything from the picture. Seeing as I have no idea whether it was intentional or not, I opt to give the young man the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps Mitchell did it on purpose but I don't know that.

I respectfully disagree with you. I am stating my opinion(which may be incorrect).

Ima Facultiwyfe
01-14-2017, 04:51 PM
This may be the first year that our most valuable player was determined by his absence.
Love, Ima

rocketeli
01-14-2017, 04:51 PM
Some people better not laugh at IC after a Carolina loss anymore...honestly I'm surprised (I don't know why) at all the bellyaching on this thread. The team was playing a team ranked 14th at their arena, after losing a key starter and the coach to injuries recently and they played hard and didn't get embarrassed in any way. Giles is super rusty,but you can already see he is an upgrade in interior defense and rebounding over Jeter and the committee. Tatum does still try to do high school things at times--coaches need to address this, but remember he's only played a few games. It was a game we could have won--we weren't outclassed and I did not see any "soft" play either--like all winnable but not won games there are things that hurt so caused a loss-in this case free throws and turnovers, time to work on these things and come out strong for some easier games in the next two weeks.

CameronBlue
01-14-2017, 04:52 PM
I respectfully disagree with you. I am stating my opinion(which may be incorrect).

We've all been irritated by the media's rush to label Grayson unfairly, but at game speed and on replay it looked intentional to me. That stated hopefully Pitino apologized to Grayson after the game. Pitino took a little bit of time to "explain" something during the handshake lineup it seems.

rsvman
01-14-2017, 04:59 PM
To me they looked a lot better today.
Louisville D was smothering and we gave up too many turnovers, for sure.

But Louisville also shot much better than they usually do from 3 down the stretch when we were trying to make up the deficit. Some days are just not our day. Today was one of them.

Several key missed free throws, too, as mentioned above in the thread.

I think with Jefferson in the lineup we win this game. I'm seeing some improvement in the other guys, which I hope will continue.

Allen plays chippy pretty much all the time and he is going to have to be more careful. Did anyone else worry what the slow motion replay would show when Grayson made the wide open three and Mitchell had the ankle injury? Thank goodness Mitchell had just inadvertently stepped on Bolden's foot.

I an cautiously optimistic about this team's chances for greatness come March and April.

CoachJ10
01-14-2017, 04:59 PM
* Discipline.
Taking care of the basketball on offense and playing team defense (awareness, rotations, fouls). The execution of the X's and O's HAS to be tightened up.
* Mental Toughness.
The crown is heavy for the king...we get everyone's best shot and then some. The pressure that each of the current rotational players has for their own expectations is high. Combining those two...there is some serious weight on this team's shoulders. Responding to those challenges will require players to step up to the spotlight and own it.
* Having fun.
While losses are not every enjoyable, these guys have to take a step back and enjoy the ride. The ACC is more competitive this year than its been in awhile (which presents more challenges...but all in...its a good thing)...bumps are going to come. Our guys need to learn from their mistakes, grow as players...and remember...to love the game of basketball. Show it on the court.

DukeWarhead
01-14-2017, 05:03 PM
I an cautiously optimistic about this team's chances for greatness come March and April.

Well, hats off to you for keeping the faith. I am having a hard time keeping it myself. Glad somebody is seeing the glass half full.

Skydog
01-14-2017, 05:10 PM
Ok, for a change I'm focusing on the positive.

Grayson was 4 of 8 for 2 pointers, 2 of 3 from behind the arc, 9-12 at the ft line (drawing a lot of fouls is good, right?) and had 9 rebounds, so there's that. Also Luke was 5 of 7 inside the arc, made all 4 of his fts and had 4 rebounds and 3 assists. So there's that too. And no one got injured and that's real good, right?

Next play.

ipatent
01-14-2017, 05:15 PM
Eighteen turnovers, unlike the '15 team this team lacks a floor general and it shows on the road against a top flight defense. Plenty of depth up front, but it also lacks a post player like Okafor who can force a double team.

I think they will get better by March, but there's a potential cohesion problem when they are under defensive pressure.

MartyClark
01-14-2017, 05:19 PM
I was at the game, haven't read all the posts so my thoughts may have been said by others.

1.Grayson had a really good game. He brought the ball up court, scored, rebounded and generally outhustled everybody on the court.

2. Luke had a good first half and Louisville kept him from getting the ball much in the 2nd half.

3. Our big guys were not good. We had no inside scoring presence. Defensively, our bigs got lost a lot, leading to a good game for the Egyptian kid.

4. Duke played hard but Kennard and Allen were the only difference makers.

Parenthetically, I ran into the family of one of the Duke players last night at dinner and again today at breakfast. Great family ( it doesn't seem right to identify anybody in this setting). Last night, one of the relatives mentioned how brutal the Florida State crowd had been to Grayson and that he hoped today's game would be better. I was sitting amidst Louisville fans, although not near the student section. The crowd booed Grayson every time he had the ball but I thought it was kind of mindless, white noise. I couldn't hear what was yelled to Grayson from the student section.

Pitino said some good things about Grayson is the post game press conference.

Go Duke!

Indoor66
01-14-2017, 05:28 PM
I think this team can progress from here and now forward to March and April. As I see it there needs to be better concentration on the court. Less worry about what is going on and more attention and concentration about what is going on. Additionally, I think this team needs a reminder of Coach Wooden's admonition to "be quick but don't hurry."

I see a lot of hurry out there.

brevity
01-14-2017, 05:36 PM
Pitino said some good things about Grayson is the post game press conference.

As well he should.

Whether they boo or cheer him, all college basketball fans owe a huge debt of gratitude to Grayson Allen. He is the ONLY reason national sports media (and even national news media) are paying any attention to the sport. Normally it would be sidelined by the real enemy: the NFL, with college football and the NBA consuming any leftover oxygen.

But if you want to be thin-skinned and make a plea to be ignored again until March, be my guest.

Edouble
01-14-2017, 05:36 PM
I was at the game, haven't read all the posts so my thoughts may have been said by others.

1.Grayson had a really good game. He brought the ball up court, scored, rebounded and generally outhustled everybody on the court.

2. Luke had a good first half and Louisville kept him from getting the ball much in the 2nd half.

3. Our big guys were not good. We had no inside scoring presence. Defensively, our bigs got lost a lot, leading to a good game for the Egyptian kid.

4. Duke played hard but Kennard and Allen were the only difference makers.

Parenthetically, I ran into the family of one of the Duke players last night at dinner and again today at breakfast. Great family ( it doesn't seem right to identify anybody in this setting). Last night, one of the relatives mentioned how brutal the Florida State crowd had been to Grayson and that he hoped today's game would be better. I was sitting amidst Louisville fans, although not near the student section. The crowd booed Grayson every time he had the ball but I thought it was kind of mindless, white noise. I couldn't hear what was yelled to Grayson from the student section.

Pitino said some good things about Grayson is the post game press conference.

Go Duke!

Agree. On TV it seemed like the Louisville fan's hearts weren't really in it. Like it was just some obligatory Grayson booing. Overall, I was not impressed with the crowd.

FadedTackyShirt
01-14-2017, 05:37 PM
Parenthetically, I ran into the family of one of the Duke players last night at dinner and again today at breakfast. Great family ( it doesn't seem right to identify anybody in this setting). Last night, one of the relatives mentioned how brutal the Florida State crowd had been to Grayson and that he hoped today's game would be better. I was sitting amidst Louisville fans, although not near the student section. The crowd booed Grayson every time he had the ball but I thought it was kind of mindless, white noise. I couldn't hear what was yelled to Grayson from the student section

White noise is a good description of the non-stop booing Grayson will hear on the road. Booing is much better than the abuse heaped on Laettner @ LSU in '92 or whenever JJ played @ Maryland.

ipatent
01-14-2017, 05:37 PM
1.Grayson had a really good game. He brought the ball up court, scored, rebounded and generally outhustled everybody on the court.

Six turnovers, three assists. Great talent and competitor, but he's playing out of position as lead guard.

CDu
01-14-2017, 05:40 PM
White noise is a good description of the non-stop booing Grayson will hear on the road. Booing is much better than the abuse heaped on Laettner @ LSU in '92 or whenever JJ played @ Maryland.

Allen got the JJ treatment in Tallahassee.

CDu
01-14-2017, 05:50 PM
The good news? We get a week off to rest, regroup, take a look at what went wrong, and work on how to fix it. And, we get a week to heal.

Then, we have two very winnable home games and a very winnable road game. We have 16 days before we face another top-30 team (Notre Dame on the road). This is the time to do what it takes to right the ship.

tbyers11
01-14-2017, 05:55 PM
Six turnovers, three assists. Great talent and competitor, but he's playing out of position as lead guard.

I agree that Grayson is not a natural PG. However, I think that summing up his performance with solely his assist and turnover totals does not remotely show how good of a game he had against a strong Louisville defense. At least 2 of his turnovers were direct results of big men not catching the ball. He was also forced to handle nearly all of the ball handling duties against nearly full court pressure as Frank Jackson had another poor performance in an ACC road game. He called his own number more than in previous games and finding the right balance between scoring and distributing will be key to his growth.

I think that the offense runs much more efficiently when he initiates it. He is not Tyus Jones or Bobby Hurley but I think he is by far our best option at lead guard, and a pretty good one.

freshmanjs
01-14-2017, 05:57 PM
The good news? We get a week off to rest, regroup, take a look at what went wrong, and work on how to fix it. And, we get a week to heal.

Then, we have two very winnable home games and a very winnable road game. We have 16 days before we face another top-30 team (Notre Dame on the road). This is the time to do what it takes to right the ship.

Our next game is against a top 30 team. Not sure if that is "very winnable" or not. I'm sure we will be favored but not by much.

Last time we had a long stretch off, the team got materially worse. Hopefully this break will be very different.

Forde has an article using words like free-fall, dumpster fire, blowing the season.

Hard to imagine this is where we are with a team that had so much potential.

Yes there is still time...

JMarley50
01-14-2017, 05:59 PM
Six turnovers, three assists. Great talent and competitor, but he's playing out of position as lead guard.

Are you just completely ignoring the 3 games prior to today? This team had its best game with Grayson leading the point. He's not the problem.

NashvilleDevil
01-14-2017, 05:59 PM
Our next game is against a top 30 team. Not sure if that is "very winnable" or not. I'm sure we will be favored but not by much.

Last time we had a long stretch off, the team got materially worse. Hopefully this break will be very different.

Forde has an article using words like free-fall, dumpster fire, blowing the season.

Hard to imagine this is where we are with a team that had so much potential.

Yes there is still time...

Of course Forde has an article up like that. He's a huge Louisville homer and dislikes Duke. Media has been getting their licks in since the Elon game and it will be sweet if they are eating all these words in April.

Spanarkel
01-14-2017, 06:05 PM
I agree that Grayson is not a natural PG. However, I think that summing up his performance with solely his assist and turnover totals does not remotely show how good of a game he had against a strong Louisville defense. At least 2 of his turnovers were direct results of big men not catching the ball. He was also forced to handle nearly all of the ball handling duties against nearly full court pressure as Frank Jackson had another poor performance in an ACC road game. He called his own number more than in previous games and finding the right balance between scoring and distributing will be key to his growth.

I think that the offense runs much more efficiently when he initiates it. He is not Tyus Jones or Bobby Hurley but I think he is by far our best option at lead guard, and a pretty good one.

In my opinion, Grayson's pass to Marques on the baseline was really too low(it looked to be at about his knees)to be easily catchable. I am not saying that it was uncatchable. I agree with all of your other points.

dyedwab
01-14-2017, 06:08 PM
Of course Forde has an article up like that. He's a huge Louisville homer and dislikes Duke. Media has been getting their licks in since the Elon game and it will be sweet if they are eating all these words in April.

Agreed re: Forde. i will NEVER forget hearing him on a pre-tournament radio show in 2010 saying that Duke was the top seed most likely to lose early.

That said, the biggest issue I see facing this team right now is that they don't really know what to do when things go poorly in a game. Lots of hero ball, lots of confusion on defense, and a loss of focus on both end of the floor. This will be helped by greater continuity, Amile's return (whenever it comes), and Coach K's return (whenever it comes).

tbyers11
01-14-2017, 06:21 PM
In my opinion, Grayson's pass to Marques on the baseline was really too low(it looked to be at about his knees)to be easily catchable. I am not saying that it was uncatchable. I agree with all of your other points.

I watched that play several times on replay and while it wasn't clear because of a bad angle I thought it was OK, but you may be right. I was also going off Steve Wiseman's twitter feed, the Durham Sun Duke reporter who was at the game, when he said (https://twitter.com/stevewisemanNC/status/820338379153928192)

Stephen Wiseman
‏@stevewisemanNC
Good pass by Allen, bad hands by Bolden leads to Duke turnover. Louisville up 47-43 with 11:53 to play

devildeac
01-14-2017, 06:23 PM
No. He said, correctly, that players who make a habit of "selling" calls as much as Grayson does aren't very likely to get the benefit of the doubt.

Then he's still pathetic because getting hit in the face with a backhand slap doesn't fall into the category of "benefit of the doubt," Grayson or any other player. Drop your double standard/hypocrisy, jay. If Grayson had backhanded someone in the face/head, the play would be most likely be reviewed, an F1 (or even F2) would likely be assessed, he'd be ejected and suspended for x game/s. And es(uck)pn would want him imprisoned. (Well, the last scenario is probably not likely :rolleyes:.)

Spanarkel
01-14-2017, 06:28 PM
I watched that play several times on replay and while it wasn't clear because of a bad angle I thought it was OK, but you may be right. I was also going off Steve Wiseman's twitter feed, the Durham Sun Duke reporter who was at the game, when he said (https://twitter.com/stevewisemanNC/status/820338379153928192)

Stephen Wiseman
‏@stevewisemanNC
Good pass by Allen, bad hands by Bolden leads to Duke turnover. Louisville up 47-43 with 11:53 to play

Just watched the replay and it looks like a hard but decently positioned pass. Thanks!

Duke76
01-14-2017, 06:30 PM
I was at the game, haven't read all the posts so my thoughts may have been said by others.

1.Grayson had a really good game. He brought the ball up court, scored, rebounded and generally outhustled everybody on the court.

2. Luke had a good first half and Louisville kept him from getting the ball much in the 2nd half.

3. Our big guys were not good. We had no inside scoring presence. Defensively, our bigs got lost a lot, leading to a good game for the Egyptian kid.

4. Duke played hard but Kennard and Allen were the only difference makers.

Parenthetically, I ran into the family of one of the Duke players last night at dinner and again today at breakfast. Great family ( it doesn't seem right to identify anybody in this setting). Last night, one of the relatives mentioned how brutal the Florida State crowd had been to Grayson and that he hoped today's game would be better. I was sitting amidst Louisville fans, although not near the student section. The crowd booed Grayson every time he had the ball but I thought it was kind of mindless, white noise. I couldn't hear what was yelled to Grayson from the student section.

Pitino said some good things about Grayson is the post game press conference.

Go Duke!


I think Grayson and especially Luke were too unselfish today...they are our best shooters and I think should have take more than 9 and 10 shots. Too many times Luke passed up 3's to dribble around and pass. Only 12 3 pointers were taken to their 19

ChillinDuke
01-14-2017, 06:30 PM
For those posters that are genuinely surprised by all the negativity in this thread (and every thread after a loss), this post is for you...

It's called recency bias. Generally speaking, human beings have a tendency to put too much weight on a recent outcome and assume that it implies a high probability that that outcome will occur again. Said differently, Duke's performance today makes a significant subset of stakeholders (viewers, fans, message board posters, etc) think Duke is a flawed (perhaps significantly flawed) team. That's just human nature. So don't overreact to those that are falling victim to human habits.

My personal take is that Duke played OK today. Better than FSU, to my eye. We still have a ways to go, but I thought we were somewhat better - which is at least moving in the right direction.

Unfortunately, I think Tatum, Giles, and Bolden have issues right now. Tatum needs to figure out the college game as fast as possible. He's still trying to dominate in ways that are not practical - I agree with the parallels to Carmelo that someone made up thread. Luckily, I think there's time to change that and integrate better, but we need to start seeing him try to change - both in his actions and in his body language. Giles needs to get healthy. I, personally, thought he'd be able to dominate at this stage, but it's clear he's nowhere near up to speed. Shame on me - I've had an ACL surgery myself so should have understood the uphill battle he'd to be a high impact player this year. That said, he can still do it - it's just going to be hard. Bolden I don't even know what's up. He doesn't seem ready to contribute - which is kind of shocking given his ranking and his body type. Again, there's time to get there - but we need to start seeing the progress creep forward which we haven't seen in weeks, if at all. Shades of Chase Jeter as a freshman perhaps he's just going to need more time - but with his body type, we could really use at least someone that can alter shots near the rim and pull down boards.

Allen and Kennard still look great. Jones was himself today. Jackson was sort of freshman-like with a nice three but some open misses and a bit tentative when initiating the offense. Jeter I thought was OK - he's gotta correct that baseline lurker play where he steps on the end line when receiving the pass. That's at least the second time this year he's messed up that play which should've been a dunk.

Finally, the league is so deep this year that I just don't even know if Allen and Kennard can carry us alone. We need a few other players to step up, if even for singular games at a time. And we're just not getting that. Especially needed in the event that Allen or Kennard have an off night. This ain't the 2010 ACC landscape, folks. These teams are all good and ready to play. We need to match that and we need to be ready for that. There's a reason coaches like Larranaga, Buzz, Stallings, Pastner got in. I don't think coaches like Brownell or Turgeon (at that time) would be the hires for those teams if the vacancies were right now (and MD was still around). This is THE league in college basketball right now.

- Chillin

dukelifer
01-14-2017, 06:31 PM
This was a very tough stretch at full strength, but almost impossible with K and Amile out. You need your seniors and K's steady hand on the road with a young team. Right now this team is out of sorts- but I think they have the ability to get it together. Just need to get into a groove. I am just waiting to see it happen- but it could be until February. Sorry folks that this is not a once in a lifetime season. The injuries early made that almost impossible and now we see that Giles is simply not ready- not his fault- you can't miss a year and a half as a very good high schooler and jump to the next level without time. Bolden is more of a mystery- I did expect more from him- either injury or the game is too fast. Can't win at this level without scoring from inside. Duke had that with Amile and the committee of centers is not doing the job now. Tough to watch and teams like Louisville and Virginia will make the games ugly. Tough out there on the road- tougher without a center and a more natural point guard. It has been a successful recipe for K- but it is not there this year. Back to the drawing board.

devildeac
01-14-2017, 06:31 PM
To me they looked a lot better today.
Louisville D was smothering and we gave up too many turnovers, for sure.

But Louisville also shot much better than they usually do from 3 down the stretch when we were trying to make up the deficit. Some days are just not our day. Today was one of them.

Several key missed free throws, too, as mentioned above in the thread.

I think with Jefferson in the lineup we win this game. I'm seeing some improvement in the other guys, which I hope will continue.

Allen plays chippy pretty much all the time and he is going to have to be more careful. Did anyone else worry what the slow motion replay would show when Grayson made the wide open three and Mitchell had the ankle injury? Thank goodness Mitchell had just inadvertently stepped on Bolden's foot.

I an cautiously optimistic about this team's chances for greatness come March and April.

So, tripping is an infectious/contagious disease being spread among teammates now. :rolleyes:

uh_no
01-14-2017, 06:34 PM
For those posters that are genuinely surprised by all the negativity in this thread (and every thread after a loss), this post is for you...

It's called recency bias.

in one of DBR's ears and out the other.

Kfanarmy
01-14-2017, 06:44 PM
Then he's still pathetic because getting hit in the face with a backhand slap doesn't fall into the category of "benefit of the doubt," Grayson or any other player. Drop your double standard/hypocrisy, jay. If Grayson had backhanded someone in the face/head, the play would be most likely be reviewed, an F1 (or even F2) would likely be assessed, he'd be ejected and suspended for x game/s. And es(uck)pn would want him imprisoned. (Well, the last scenario is probably not likely :rolleyes:.)

Not sure why that wasnt reviewed. Certainly would have been completely reliant on the refs noticing it.

ncexnyc
01-14-2017, 06:47 PM
Having cut the cable cord late last year I finally broke down and picked up Sling TV last weekend. Having watched the last three games I've got the following things on my mind.

1. I see a number of people saying there's plenty of time to right the ship. I'm wondering at what point is it too late to make changes?

2. Is Grayson staying for his senior year? I ask this because if he is I don't have a problem with him staying at the PG slot, however if he isn't wouldn't, the team be better served by having Frank Jackson cutting his teeth in that role, despite the bumps and bruises he'd take.

3. Is Harry Giles staying with us next year? If he is then by all means let him continue getting the starting minutes, however if he is just rehabbing his knee for the NBA then maybe the kids who can go at 100% should get the lions share of the playing time.

4. If Amile is the heart and soul of this team, what does that say about the rest of the players? Does anyone on this forum actually think that the opposition draws up their game plan based on Amile's availability?

5. Is Jayson Tatum the second coming of Austin Rivers? If he is I hope he at least comes with one, "The Shot", in his bag of tricks.

I realize I've been harsh with some of my words and possibly my views are tainted my our play the past three games, but I'm left sitting here wondering if we put to much stock into our supposed OaD players.

Bob Green
01-14-2017, 06:48 PM
Per Andy Katz:


ACC official tells us the league reviewed Louisville's Donovan Mitchell's contact to Duke's Grayson Allen's face when the two dove for a loose ball and determined the slap was inadvertent.

devildeac
01-14-2017, 06:56 PM
Per Andy Katz:

Thanks, swofford:mad:. Change the jerseys on the players and see if the acc orifice has a different take.

MPandolfi
01-14-2017, 06:57 PM
Per Andy Katz:

Of course they did. Could you imagine the outcry if they had found it intentional and reprimanded him?

devildeac
01-14-2017, 06:59 PM
Of course they did. Could you imagine the outcry if they had found it intentional and reprimanded him?

There's duck season, deer season and Allen season. For 2 of those, I think permits/licenses are required. :rolleyes:

jipops
01-14-2017, 07:06 PM
The good news? We get a week off to rest, regroup, take a look at what went wrong, and work on how to fix it. And, we get a week to heal.

Then, we have two very winnable home games and a very winnable road game. We have 16 days before we face another top-30 team (Notre Dame on the road). This is the time to do what it takes to right the ship.

The next 3 games are of important for this team to find itself. And I really don't think we can afford to drop any of them, else the outlook for even making the tournament starts to look bleak. This team desperately needs some confidence. Once Amile comes back things will most certainly improve, but he isn't the answer to all of the problems. This team has to grow up, it is behind most everyone in that regard.

There are personnel challenges here. I don't think the roster is really a very good mix of players. The lack of pg has already been harped on. Excluding Matt Jones our guards are ball dominant players. But without Amile, we are largely void of front court talent. Giles is a normal freshman right now. It was completely unrealistic to expect him to be the player advertised after being out for more than a year during a time that is crucial to a player's development. And as I have said repeatedly, Jeter is just not an ACC level talent at this point. Unfortunately it looks like that could be the case with Bolden as well. No way that kid will be playing in the NBA next year. Hopefully we'll see him again at Duke though. And it appears the staff has no confidence in Vrank's ability to defend, despite being a better offensive option than Jeter. And as for Frank Jackson, well he's playing like a normal talented freshman too.

So we have all of these available front court players yet unfortunately we just don't have the kind of front court talent to make much of a difference in high level games besides Amile. Tatum is mostly the only other option yet he has switched to pounding the air out of the ball since Amile went out.

I think it is wrong to lay any of this at the hands of Capel. It's been one thing after another and the team lost all opportunity for cohesion before this point. I do believe things will get better. But coming anywhere close to fulfilling the extremely high preseason expectations looks bleak.

SilkyJ
01-14-2017, 07:06 PM
We miss Jefferson. Not much more to say.

I haven't seen the game so can someone offer up why Giles only played 19 mins? I know we've been easing him back in, but he played 24 mins against BC, so I thought he was ready for increased action. Not to mention he's the #1 recruit in the country and should command big minutes now that he's been back for almost a month.

With Amile out, we really need to lean on Giles for defense and rebounding. Even with his rust he's our best rebounder averaging 15.6 reb/40 mins compared to only 8/40 for marques and 7/40 for chase).

In general we need Giles to emerge as a program changing player, which #1 recruits are supposed to be, or our ceiling is likely capped this year. He's still shaking off the rust, but if he's not consistently scoring in double digits and snaggin double doubles in another 3-4 weeks, then we wont get far. Time will tell..

BTW, we still are hurting from not having a PG. Getting Amile back won't fix 18 turnovers. But having two guys who can get double digit rebounds each game down low (amile and Giles) including a lot of o-boards, we can mask some our deficiencies that way. At the end of the day we shouldn't be too worried about our offense. We can score. We need post presence for easy buckets, 2nd chance points, and rebounding.

Devilwin
01-14-2017, 07:08 PM
I've watched it three times. Inadvertent my big old butt.

DukieInKansas
01-14-2017, 07:19 PM
One of the comments after a column about GA and the arm across his face/takedown of the Louisville player/slap to GAs face "AND when Mitchell sprained his ankle -Allen caused it---even tho he was twenty feet away...:

NashvilleDevil
01-14-2017, 07:21 PM
Having cut the cable cord late last year I finally broke down and picked up Sling TV last weekend. Having watched the last three games I've got the following things on my mind.

1. I see a number of people saying there's plenty of time to right the ship. I'm wondering at what point is it too late to make changes?

2. Is Grayson staying for his senior year? I ask this because if he is I don't have a problem with him staying at the PG slot, however if he isn't wouldn't, the team be better served by having Frank Jackson cutting his teeth in that role, despite the bumps and bruises he'd take.

3. Is Harry Giles staying with us next year? If he is then by all means let him continue getting the starting minutes, however if he is just rehabbing his knee for the NBA then maybe the kids who can go at 100% should get the lions share of the playing time.

4. If Amile is the heart and soul of this team, what does that say about the rest of the players? Does anyone on this forum actually think that the opposition draws up their game plan based on Amile's availability?

5. Is Jayson Tatum the second coming of Austin Rivers? If he is I hope he at least comes with one, "The Shot", in his bag of tricks.

I realize I've been harsh with some of my words and possibly my views are tainted my our play the past three games, but I'm left sitting here wondering if we put to much stock into our supposed OaD players.

Let's think about this. Duke brought in one of the top classes in Duke history. All of us based our predictions on this season on the talent of Duke's returning players mixed with the newcomers. Then:

1. Harry has the scope on the first knee he injured. Misses several games.
2. Jayson has the foot injury. Misses several games.
3. Marques has the lower leg injury. Misses several games.
4. Grayson is bothered by the toe early. Misses a game.
5. Frank has a lingering foot injury early. Misses a game.
6. Grayson has the incident. Misses a game.
7. Javin is injured. Misses games
8. Chase is injured. Misses games.
9. Coach K has back surgery. Misses games.
10. Amile gets injured. Misses games.

In addition to that you have the media and Duke haters going through every Duke game frame by frame to see if there is anything they can get Grayson on. All of that may play on a team that is relying on several freshman to contribute.

dukelifer
01-14-2017, 07:22 PM
Having cut the cable cord late last year I finally broke down and picked up Sling TV last weekend. Having watched the last three games I've got the following things on my mind.

1. I see a number of people saying there's plenty of time to right the ship. I'm wondering at what point is it too late to make changes?

2. Is Grayson staying for his senior year? I ask this because if he is I don't have a problem with him staying at the PG slot, however if he isn't wouldn't, the team be better served by having Frank Jackson cutting his teeth in that role, despite the bumps and bruises he'd take.

3. Is Harry Giles staying with us next year? If he is then by all means let him continue getting the starting minutes, however if he is just rehabbing his knee for the NBA then maybe the kids who can go at 100% should get the lions share of the playing time.

4. If Amile is the heart and soul of this team, what does that say about the rest of the players? Does anyone on this forum actually think that the opposition draws up their game plan based on Amile's availability?

5. Is Jayson Tatum the second coming of Austin Rivers? If he is I hope he at least comes with one, "The Shot", in his bag of tricks.

I realize I've been harsh with some of my words and possibly my views are tainted my our play the past three games, but I'm left sitting here wondering if we put to much stock into our supposed OaD players.

Amile is obviously not the focus of any team but he is having an outstanding year on the glass and scoring. At the moment, there is no one better down low and gives Duke options. I am not sure who the best comp is for Tatum but he is not a transcendent talent. Maybe a Michael Kidd-Gilchrist type of career. I can see why he dominated in high school but the next level is very different. He is not great at any one thing, but good at many. At the next level he needs to either improve his shot (a lot) or become a tenacious, elite defender. He is just a good player who will get better in the college game in time. He would be better off staying but I doubt that happens as I expect he will improve markedly come February and March.

CDu
01-14-2017, 07:23 PM
I must have missed that team. I don't recall them playing together.

Am I missing a joke here?

DukieInKansas
01-14-2017, 07:25 PM
Am I missing a joke here?

No - removed the quote. I didn't recall them playing together and first roster I called up didn't include Rodney Hood for some strange reason.

Spanarkel
01-14-2017, 07:27 PM
Per Andy Katz:

Not surprised at the reaction from the ACC office. Other reasonable basketball aficionados have a much different take on the incident. Seth Davis(yes, I KNOW he went to Duke) states on his twitter: "The video clearly shows what happened...(Mitchell)intentionally slapped Allen on the forehead." Accepting the ACC's opinion as truth as to what happened in this incident is pathetic. It was a "b...h." slap and "b...h" slaps are not inadvertent(no, I've never given nor received one fortunately).

Wander
01-14-2017, 07:35 PM
4. If Amile is the heart and soul of this team, what does that say about the rest of the players? Does anyone on this forum actually think that the opposition draws up their game plan based on Amile's availability?


Yes, I would guess opponents absolutely draw up their game plans based on Amile's availability. For example, they might run a ton of ball screens to take advantage of our not having a big man who can really switch easily. I'm not sure why you think it would be surprising to learn that game plans would change based on the opposing team having or not having their best defensive player.

grad_devil
01-14-2017, 07:35 PM
Pitino said some good things about Grayson is the post game press conference.

Agree with this wholeheartedly. He also said some good things about K. Full press conference is here (http://www.courier-journal.com/videos/sports/college/louisville/2017/01/14/full-pitino-presser-after-cards-beat-duke/96590054/), but if you're too busy/lazy to watch the 8 minute video, I've transcribed the parts about K and Grayson:


Reporter: <unintelligible>

Pitino: "I happen to think - I'm in the minority - I happen to think he's a terrific young man. I think it's a reflex action, like somebody throwing an elbow. Because, he's a highly, highly intelligent young man, so why would you do it? I think he's a terrific young man who made a mistake - made three of them. I think it's a reflex action when he does something wrong, he'll lunge out or trip somebody. But he's a good person - I know he's a good person, I checked it out.

"And a lot of people question Coach K. And Mike doesn't need to win any more games. And the bottom line is he's a West Point grad that over
disciplines. And everybody says he only sat one game - well, you can bury a young man. You see the way everyone treats him on the road - he got that at Florida State - you can bury a young man. So, this is all about preserving a young man and I happen to think - I happen to know - he's a terrific young man that keeps making these mistakes of lashing out when he does something wrong, ya know, and he'll cure it. He's a terrific player - a terrific guy - and he just made a mistake. But he's not, I mean - he tripped one of my players - it's wrong, no question about it. But the one thing I don't do is I know Mike, he's an over-discipline guy, believe me, that kid's paying the price in other ways. You hear the crowds everywhere he goes, it buries him - he's the modern day Christian Laettner right now. I think he's a happens to be a terrific person whose made some mistakes, and I don't think he'll do it again. That's my opinion."

Reporter: "What did you say to him?"

Pitino: "You're a terrific young man, don't get down about that. It's behind you, just keep on going"


Not that I consider Pitino this paragon of virtue, or even the ideal person to be sticking up for K and Grayson, but I'm still glad that somebody is sticking up for our guys.

DukieInBrasil
01-14-2017, 07:37 PM
In my opinion, Grayson's pass to Marques on the baseline was really too low(it looked to be at about his knees)to be easily catchable. I am not saying that it was uncatchable. I agree with all of your other points.

that pass hit Bolden in the belly, as i remember it.

AvlDukie
01-14-2017, 07:37 PM
Capel in post game presser on Giles:"I'm not sure that he will be up to speed for us this year."

DBFAN
01-14-2017, 07:50 PM
Capel in post game presser on Giles:"I'm not sure that he will be up to speed for us this year."

If that's the case then why play him at all. Would be better to develop continuity with players who can play at full speed

grossbus
01-14-2017, 07:51 PM
Capel in post game presser on Giles:"I'm not sure that he will be up to speed for us this year."

I have been thinking the same thing. For Bolden, too.

Not enough time to play into game shape.

jv001
01-14-2017, 07:57 PM
One other thought- Tatum is expecting superstar calls and then whining when it doesn't come.
He'd benefit from a "Hurley video".

Not a bad idea that Hurley video. It helped Bobby become a much better player. Probably Duke's best point guard. GoDuke!

DBFAN
01-14-2017, 07:57 PM
I just don't know why if Capel said that, why even play them at all. The team we had a start of season was much better than this one.

DBFAN
01-14-2017, 08:00 PM
A part of me just hopes that this is a bit of motivation for Giles.

WHOneedsSOX
01-14-2017, 08:32 PM
What's the deal with Bolden? I thought he had decent post moves. Why not give him a few touches? He never touches the ball on offense in a scoring position. He looks so checked out of this team. Wonder what he does after this season. Draft stock has to be really low but it also doesn't look like he's having any fun. Just looks mad all the time.

CDu
01-14-2017, 08:34 PM
I just don't know why if Capel said that, why even play them at all. The team we had a start of season was much better than this one.

Well, of course it is. We had a fifth-year senior and relied on only one freshman early in the year. Currently we don't have that senior and now rely on 3-4 freshman, 2-3 of whom missed a bunch of time.

jv001
01-14-2017, 08:36 PM
Thanks, swofford:mad:. Change the jerseys on the players and see if the acc orifice has a different take.

Swofford wants the spot light on Grayson and not on his be-loved cheats. If they couldn't see that play as intentional after reviewing it, they need eye surgery with me doing it. No, I don't know anything about eye surgery and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn either. I hate to say what I really think about the play. I would get a demerit from DBR. All I will say, is did you see the same player(I think it was the same L'ille player) give a helping hand to Harry after fouling him? And Jay Bilas is a moron even if he did play for the Blue Devils. GoDuke!

Spanarkel
01-14-2017, 08:38 PM
that pass hit Bolden in the belly, as i remember it.


Not sure that I see your point. For the same reason that big men(and Bolden qualifies)are taught not to bring the ball down to their waist area after making a rebound because it's negating the big's height advantage, it's not ideal to throw a pass to a big's midsection right under the basket in traffic. Additionally, location is not the be all/end all of a successful pass: it looked to be a hard(fast)pass without that much distance between Allen and Bolden. As other posters have commented on, some of the players(not just Bolden)seem to have trouble catching passes from Allen. Would you rather it have been Jeter in the game who unfortunately would most likely not be able to do anything positive with the ball had it been thrown to him? My memory of the play is probably not perfect either. Go Duke!

Bluegrassdevil1
01-14-2017, 08:38 PM
There is a great deal of comparisons between Tatum and Carmelo Anthony...

Is this the same Carmelo Anthony that played at Syracuse in '02-'03?

The same Carmelo Anthony that ended his freshman year with confetti and a big gold trophy?

jv001
01-14-2017, 08:42 PM
Agree with this wholeheartedly. He also said some good things about K. Full press conference is here (http://www.courier-journal.com/videos/sports/college/louisville/2017/01/14/full-pitino-presser-after-cards-beat-duke/96590054/), but if you're too busy/lazy to watch the 8 minute video, I've transcribed the parts about K and Grayson:



Not that I consider Pitino this paragon of virtue, or even the ideal person to be sticking up for K and Grayson, but I'm still glad that somebody is sticking up for our guys.

It's pretty bad when two opposing coaches have said more nice things about Grayson than some of our fellow Duke fans on DBR. Get over it....next play. GoDuke!

AFL
01-14-2017, 08:44 PM
There is a great deal of comparisons between Tatum and Carmelo Anthony...

Is this the same Carmelo Anthony that played at Syracuse in '02-'03?

The same Carmelo Anthony that ended his freshman year with confetti and a big gold trophy?

But what has Carmelo Anthony accomplished since then, other than in the Olympics? Has he ever even been part of a team that has won a playoff series? He's a great scorer, but certainly not an elite teammate. I think the comparison of Tatum to Carmelo is spot-on.

DBFAN
01-14-2017, 08:47 PM
Well, of course it is. We had a fifth-year senior and relied on only one freshman early in the year. Currently we don't have that senior and now rely on 3-4 freshman, 2-3 of whom missed a bunch of time.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. If Capel truly has doubt that Giles will be up to speed then why not Play Jeter, or any of the other guys the entire time. They would have their bumps but they would be better by the end of the season. If we are only playing them just to spot Giles then it seems counter productive, because Giles isn't going to ever be up to speed. Now I am basing that on Capel saying he doesn't think Giles will be up to speed. I am sure Giles is a great kid and will one day be back to form, but the team should be first and not one kid. But this is also why I stated that I'm hoping it's a little tough love from Capel, some motivation if you will

mgtr
01-14-2017, 08:47 PM
We have four good players ( a soph, a junior, a senior and a grad student, one of whom is injured). Except for Jeter, the rest of the players are freshmen. So, assuming Amile returns, who is the best freshman to play with those four? That is the basket into which we should place our eggs. Based on time played, Tatum looks like the guy, but I am not sure that is the right choice. Hard to say.

dukelifer
01-14-2017, 08:52 PM
But what has Carmelo Anthony accomplished since then, other than in the Olympics? Has he ever even been part of a team that has won a playoff series? He's a great scorer, but certainly not an elite teammate. I think the comparison of Tatum to Carmelo is spot-on.

I would love if Tatum was Carmello. Averaged over 22 in college and 25 in the NBA with highs of over 28 per game. Carmello is an elite shooter. The only similarity between Tatum and Carmello is that they are both great FT shooters. I think it is too early to judge Tatum as a teammate. K loves Carmello- he must know something.

DukieInBrasil
01-14-2017, 08:53 PM
Not sure that I see your point. For the same reason that big men(and Bolden qualifies)are taught not to bring the ball down to their waist area after making a rebound because it's negating the big's height advantage, it's not ideal to throw a pass to a big's midsection right under the basket in traffic. Additionally, location is not the be all/end all of a successful pass: it looked to be a hard(fast)pass without that much distance between Allen and Bolden. As other posters have commented on, some of the players(not just Bolden)seem to have trouble catching passes from Allen. Would you rather it have been Jeter in the game who unfortunately would most likely not be able to do anything positive with the ball had it been thrown to him? My memory of the play is probably not perfect either. Go Duke!

i was responding to the idea that the pass was below Bolden's knees.
I agree that a pass to the belly is not the best place for a big to receive it, but it is a catchable pass. It was a decent pass, Bolden was thinking something different than Grayson, but Bolden needs to be ready for a pass in that situation.
I don't think Chase would have been able to do anything with it.
Grayson is far from a perfect PG, but he's the best one this team's got, and he is pretty good at getting in the paint. He's had some nifty passes to bigs, to start the game at FSU comes to mind. His best passes are to 3pt shooters though.

DukieInBrasil
01-14-2017, 08:58 PM
We have four good players ( a soph, a junior, a senior and a grad student, one of whom is injured). Except for Jeter, the rest of the players are freshmen. So, assuming Amile returns, who is the best freshman to play with those four? That is the basket into which we should place our eggs. Based on time played, Tatum looks like the guy, but I am not sure that is the right choice. Hard to say.

i would start Giles over Tatum if the goal is to re-establish the mojo the team had earlier. Tatum needs the ball too much to get along with our more efficient scorers, and his defense has been suspect lately.
If Tatum keeps growing as a player, which i suspect he will, he will still be a tremendous asset to the team. From my perspective, he needs to grow as a teammate more than he needs to grow as a player for this team to be the best that it can.

jv001
01-14-2017, 08:59 PM
No Duke player was a plus in Assists to Turnovers. Grayson had the most turnovers, but as others have said, if our bigs didn't have stone hands today, he would have had 5 assist and 4 turnovers. I think Jayson's 0 assists and 3 turnovers were the worst because he was forcing things. Grayson led the way in rebounding with 9 with 2 offensive rebounds. Jeter had 2 rebounds in 17 minutes. That's really bad because he's not giving us anything on offense. As Cdu said in another post, offense is as bad or worse than our defense. Someone mentioned showing Jayson some video of his last two games where he has really begged the refs for calls. He will be better served by trying to get into the flow of the game and not force shots. Another observation: it really looked like Giles woke up in the last few minutes and played very good basketball. I'm hoping he can be that active at the beginning of games. As for Bolden, he seemed to move better today and maybe this be the beginning of some good things for the young man. There is so much for a freshmen to learn that it causes players to think too much and not just react. One other thing, Frank didn't play much down the stretch after making that bonehead play to get his 3rd foul. Amile gave him the riot act over that. GoDuke!

Sgt. Dingleberry
01-14-2017, 09:03 PM
There is a great deal of comparisons between Tatum and Carmelo Anthony...

Is this the same Carmelo Anthony that played at Syracuse in '02-'03?

The same Carmelo Anthony that ended his freshman year with confetti and a big gold trophy?

I think the Melo comp is spot on. Their college stats are very similar too. Both shot around 45% from 2 and low 30s from 3. Melo was a better rebounder though. I believe Melo went crazy in the tournament though. It's been a long time...

weezie
01-14-2017, 09:03 PM
i would start Giles over Tatum if the goal is to re-establish the mojo the team had earlier...

Oh DiB! Much respect and deference but that just ain't gonna happen. Tatum is the arms on this team. Yeah, maybe frustrated but he's our only big man's body out there.

Do refs have to review game tape? Would they be required to watch to see what they missed?
A girl can dream...

DUKIE V(A)
01-14-2017, 09:05 PM
This is now 5 of the last 7 seasons that have been badly derailed by injury. It's a stunning and remarkable run of bad luck. What can you do?

What happened the other two? :rolleyes:

jv001
01-14-2017, 09:05 PM
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. If Capel truly has doubt that Giles will be up to speed then why not Play Jeter, or any of the other guys the entire time. They would have their bumps but they would be better by the end of the season. If we are only playing them just to spot Giles then it seems counter productive, because Giles isn't going to ever be up to speed. Now I am basing that on Capel saying he doesn't think Giles will be up to speed. I am sure Giles is a great kid and will one day be back to form, but the team should be first and not one kid. But this is also why I stated that I'm hoping it's a little tough love from Capel, some motivation if you will

I'd rather have Giles at 80% over Jeter at 100%. Chase has the experience but he makes a lot of mistakes as well. He's not very explosive and cannot finish over guys his size. Harry on the other hand is explosive and seems to be improving. Chase didn't improve much at all last year. He did improve over the summer but is still not the six or seventh guy you want on a championship caliber team. Just my thoughts. GoDuke!

freshmanjs
01-14-2017, 09:08 PM
What happened the other two? :rolleyes:

One was a NC. The other was a 1st round loss. Point?

Devilwin
01-14-2017, 09:10 PM
i would start Giles over Tatum if the goal is to re-establish the mojo the team had earlier. Tatum needs the ball too much to get along with our more efficient scorers, and his defense has been suspect lately.
If Tatum keeps growing as a player, which i suspect he will, he will still be a tremendous asset to the team. From my perspective, he needs to grow as a teammate more than he needs to grow as a player for this team to be the best that it can.

I cannot agree more on Tatum...Excellent post.

rsvman
01-14-2017, 09:10 PM
Tatum is a better defender than Carmelo, imo. And Tatum actually seems interested in playing defense.

He can score a lot, but sometimes forces things when he ought not to. I think he can learn when to go and when to pass. Carmelo is never going to learn.

Overall, Tatum is a plus. As the session goes on he'll fit into the offense better. He has elite skills but just needs to learn how to make them mesh.

DBFAN
01-14-2017, 09:12 PM
I'd rather have Giles at 80% over Jeter at 100%. Chase has the experience but he makes a lot of mistakes as well. He's not very explosive and cannot finish over guys his size. Harry on the other hand is explosive and seems to be improving. Chase didn't improve much at all last year. He did improve over the summer but is still not the six or seventh guy you want on a championship caliber team. Just my thoughts. GoDuke!

I just wonder if 80% is an achievable percent for him. Obviously i don't know where he is at but he may only be at 40 and may not get to 50 by the end of the year. Ugh I dunno, just too many questions I suppose

Troublemaker
01-14-2017, 09:13 PM
Having cut the cable cord late last year I finally broke down and picked up Sling TV last weekend. Having watched the last three games I've got the following things on my mind.

1. I see a number of people saying there's plenty of time to right the ship. I'm wondering at what point is it too late to make changes?

2. Is Grayson staying for his senior year? I ask this because if he is I don't have a problem with him staying at the PG slot, however if he isn't wouldn't, the team be better served by having Frank Jackson cutting his teeth in that role, despite the bumps and bruises he'd take.

3. Is Harry Giles staying with us next year? If he is then by all means let him continue getting the starting minutes, however if he is just rehabbing his knee for the NBA then maybe the kids who can go at 100% should get the lions share of the playing time.

4. If Amile is the heart and soul of this team, what does that say about the rest of the players? Does anyone on this forum actually think that the opposition draws up their game plan based on Amile's availability?

5. Is Jayson Tatum the second coming of Austin Rivers? If he is I hope he at least comes with one, "The Shot", in his bag of tricks.

I realize I've been harsh with some of my words and possibly my views are tainted my our play the past three games, but I'm left sitting here wondering if we put to much stock into our supposed OaD players.

Let's continue playing for this season and not worry about next season. Don't give up yet.

jv001
01-14-2017, 09:17 PM
i would start Giles over Tatum if the goal is to re-establish the mojo the team had earlier. Tatum needs the ball too much to get along with our more efficient scorers, and his defense has been suspect lately.
If Tatum keeps growing as a player, which i suspect he will, he will still be a tremendous asset to the team. From my perspective, he needs to grow as a teammate more than he needs to grow as a player for this team to be the best that it can.

This could be a wake up call for Jayson. Better than that, it might be a good idea to bring Jayson off the bench and play with a couple of other guys that don't have the offensive make up that Jayson has. He would be a good scoring option with Frank, Jeter and Bolden. But I guess we'd better leave that up to our great coaching staff. GoDuke!

DBFAN
01-14-2017, 09:19 PM
This could be a wake up call for Jayson. Better than that, it might be a good idea to bring Jayson off the bench and play with a couple of other guys that don't have the offensive make up that Jayson has. He would be a good scoring option with Frank, Jeter and Bolden. But I guess we'd better leave that up to our great coaching staff. GoDuke!

Bolden only plays 15 seconds a game...😜 We wouldn't ever see Tatum play lol

JNort
01-14-2017, 10:45 PM
Bolden needs fewer minutes, he can't play defense nor is he a reliable option on offense. Jeter is a definite upgrade at both.

Tatum is still imo the worst defender on the team who gets decent minutes. He also makes way to many bad decisions on offense.

Matt is who he has been just more consistent.

Luke is a beast and I wish we would give him more opportunities to run point so Grayson can be freed up to "look for his".

Grayson is also still a beast but I'd like to see him play a little more off ball.

Giles I'm holding out hope for since he missed so much time. To me he is the key to this team making a run.

Frank I think has a bright bright future and could be the next superstar guard at Duke but he is a year away from being a difference maker. Right now he just needs to learn to adjust his speed on offense and let things come to him more naturally.

Jeter is a good rim protector and average team defender. His offense I think is average to slightly above average for being a sophomore big man in the ACC.

Amile. You can tell we really need him back. He is the anchor on defense and helps the guards by calling out rotations. This is what I think is hurting us the most because our other big are all young and don't understand the rotations as well nor are they as vocal.

JNort
01-14-2017, 10:52 PM
5. Is Jayson Tatum the second coming of Austin Rivers? If he is I hope he at least comes with one, "The Shot", in his bag of tricks.

So is Tatum the only guy who can play defense, create off the dribble, attack the rim and get a shot off without a play?

Nah this team has much more talent and Tatum can't really defend.

gofurman
01-14-2017, 11:50 PM
Let's continue playing for this season and not worry about next season. Don't give up yet.
There was a comment about Jayson being Austin Rivers... I'll take Jayson every day of the week - his length etc provides much more D than Austin. He often gets a few blocks and deflections and alters what an opposing player wants to do

sagegrouse
01-14-2017, 11:59 PM
But what has Carmelo Anthony accomplished since then, other than in the Olympics? Has he ever even been part of a team that has won a playoff series? He's a great scorer, but certainly not an elite teammate. I think the comparison of Tatum to Carmelo is spot-on.

Well, Carmelo Anthony has tricked NBA teams into paying him more than $200 million (by the end of the season). Does that count? (And what, pray tell, is an "elite teammate?")

Kedsy
01-15-2017, 12:04 AM
There was a comment about Jayson being Austin Rivers... I'll take Jayson every day of the week - his length etc provides much more D than Austin. He often gets a few blocks and deflections and alters what an opposing player wants to do

People seem to forget that Austin Rivers was 1st team All ACC. He was a lot better than some people remember.

That said, Jayson has the potential to be better. But right now he's not the most efficient offensive player and notwithstanding his blocks and steals, both his individual and team defense need work. His injury set him back a little. He'll get there.

gofurman
01-15-2017, 12:08 AM
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. If Capel truly has doubt that Giles will be up to speed then why not Play Jeter, or any of the other guys the entire time. They would have their bumps but they would be better by the end of the season. If we are only playing them just to spot Giles then it seems counter productive, because Giles isn't going to ever be up to speed. Now I am basing that on Capel saying he doesn't think Giles will be up to speed. I am sure Giles is a great kid and will one day be back to form, but the team should be first and not one kid. But this is also why I stated that I'm hoping it's a little tough love from Capel, some motivation if you will

Hate to say it but maybe you play Giles etc so as to better recruit more OADs. If Giles nor Bolden plays then maybe you lose a little a credibility in recruiting one and dones for the future? In other words you do it for the big picture?

Kedsy
01-15-2017, 12:16 AM
Regarding all the negativity in this thread, rather than call out individual posts, I'll just say this: it was stupid in 2010, it was really stupid in 2015 -- frankly it's been stupid pretty much every season -- but considering all the adversity this year's team has been through, it might be stupidest of all now.

Spanarkel
01-15-2017, 06:45 AM
Bolden needs fewer minutes, he can't play defense nor is he a reliable option on offense. Jeter is a definite upgrade at both.

Tatum is still imo the worst defender on the team who gets decent minutes. He also makes way to many bad decisions on offense.

Matt is who he has been just more consistent.

Luke is a beast and I wish we would give him more opportunities to run point so Grayson can be freed up to "look for his".

Grayson is also still a beast but I'd like to see him play a little more off ball.

Giles I'm holding out hope for since he missed so much time. To me he is the key to this team making a run.

Frank I think has a bright bright future and could be the next superstar guard at Duke but he is a year away from being a difference maker. Right now he just needs to learn to adjust his speed on offense and let things come to him more naturally.

Jeter is a good rim protector and average team defender. His offense I think is average to slightly above average for being a sophomore big man in the ACC. Amile. You can tell we really need him back. He is the anchor on defense and helps the guards by calling out rotations. This is what I think is hurting us the most because our other big are all young and don't understand the rotations as well nor are they as vocal.


Chase has scored 1 point in 48 minutes of ACC play this season.

arnie
01-15-2017, 08:07 AM
People seem to forget that Austin Rivers was 1st team All ACC. He was a lot better than some people remember.

That said, Jayson has the potential to be better. But right now he's not the most efficient offensive player and notwithstanding his blocks and steals, both his individual and team defense need work. His injury set him back a little. He'll get there.

Agree; and until Tatum matches "The Shot" by Rivers this discussion is moot.

bludev
01-15-2017, 08:08 AM
Regarding all the negativity in this thread, rather than call out individual posts, I'll just say this: it was stupid in 2010, it was really stupid in 2015 -- frankly it's been stupid pretty much every season -- but considering all the adversity this year's team has been through, it might be stupidest of all now.

Have to agree ... these guys ain't pros (yet) ... and we posters aren't always qualified to be so critical.

jimmiles
01-15-2017, 09:08 AM
Regarding all the negativity in this thread, rather than call out individual posts, I'll just say this: it was stupid in 2010, it was really stupid in 2015 -- frankly it's been stupid pretty much every season -- but considering all the adversity this year's team has been through, it might be stupidest of all now.

absolutely how quickly we forget..no team I am aware of has had such adversity..and just so we don't forget these other teams don't just lay down..they actually are tryingto beat us we have to bring our AAA team..but have not been able to all season

freshmanjs
01-15-2017, 09:19 AM
absolutely how quickly we forget..no team I am aware of has had such adversity..and just so we don't forget these other teams don't just lay down..they actually are tryingto beat us we have to bring our AAA team..but have not been able to all season

I don't think anyone is unaware of the fact that adversity has made it hard for the team to win. I also haven't seen much criticism at all of the people involved. What I have seen is frustration that the team many (including Coach K) thought would be "special" isn't playing up to potential right now (for many reasons, some of which are just bad luck).

AtlDuke72
01-15-2017, 09:19 AM
Bilas is tiresome to listen to.

There should be term limits on announcers

superdave
01-15-2017, 09:35 AM
Chase has scored 1 point in 48 minutes of ACC play this season.

Yeah, but it was real and it was spectacular!

jimmiles
01-15-2017, 09:38 AM
I don't think anyone is unaware of the fact that adversity has made it hard for the team to win. I also haven't seen much criticism at all of the people involved. What I have seen is frustration that the team many (including Coach K) thought would be "special" isn't playing up to potential right now (for many reasons, some of which are just bad luck).

surely you jest when you say you have not seen much criticism of the people involved..the board is becoming replete with it..which is ridiculous when you realize that we are playing kids who are trying to figurewhere they fit in to the overall scheme of things..and our coaching staff is also playing with serious injury..I sure am glad some of the posters aren't enemies..good grief, under the circumstances it is a wonder we are where we are..and just a tincture of patience might be in order

superdave
01-15-2017, 09:42 AM
I am far from an x and o guy, but I would have Tatum work the foul lane area on offense. Run a half court set a lot with him so he can catch the ball closer to the hoop. I think that would eliminate some of his inefficient tendencies, like drives starting 30 feet out and long 2 point attempts.

The offense this season has been a lot of motion but seemingly very few set plays. I could be wrong about that, but this season seems far more fluid, and without a natural pg, I am a little wary of it. I would think doing something like scripting the first few offensive plays would be helpful to this young team.

DukieInBrasil
01-15-2017, 09:46 AM
Bolden needs fewer minutes, he can't play defense nor is he a reliable option on offense. Jeter is a definite upgrade at both.
Tatum is still imo the worst defender on the team who gets decent minutes. He also makes way to many bad decisions on offense.
Matt is who he has been just more consistent.
Luke is a beast and I wish we would give him more opportunities to run point so Grayson can be freed up to "look for his".
Grayson is also still a beast but I'd like to see him play a little more off ball.
Giles I'm holding out hope for since he missed so much time. To me he is the key to this team making a run.
Frank I think has a bright bright future and could be the next superstar guard at Duke but he is a year away from being a difference maker. Right now he just needs to learn to adjust his speed on offense and let things come to him more naturally.
Jeter is a good rim protector and average team defender. His offense I think is average to slightly above average for being a sophomore big man in the ACC.
Amile. You can tell we really need him back. He is the anchor on defense and helps the guards by calling out rotations. This is what I think is hurting us the most because our other big are all young and don't understand the rotations as well nor are they as vocal.

Do you consider 0.3 ppg to be slightly above average for ACC big men in their So. season? That's what Jeter has given us in ACC play. Essentially nothing. I don't know where you get this notion of rim protecor, and while 1.3 bpg isn't bad, it isn't good. He's averaging 7.3 r/40 in ACC play, which is really poor for a C. I know he's trying his best and playing as well as he can, but i'm not sure i see what you're seeing.
I would like to see Luke freed up to "look for his" at the expense of Tatum. The only place Tatum scores well from is at the rim, and he's been getting stuffed at the rim a lot lately, likely due to both FSU and UL having good height inside.
I agree with your take on Amile, and look forward to many of the problems you (and i) are pointing out to get masked by his return.

CDu
01-15-2017, 09:58 AM
Do you consider 0.3 ppg to be slightly above average for ACC big men in their So. season? That's what Jeter has given us in ACC play. Essentially nothing. I don't know where you get this notion of rim protecor, and while 1.3 bpg isn't bad, it isn't good. He's averaging 7.3 r/40 in ACC play, which is really poor for a C. I know he's trying his best and playing as well as he can, but i'm not sure i see what you're seeing.
I would like to see Luke freed up to "look for his" at the expense of Tatum. The only place Tatum scores well from is at the rim, and he's been getting stuffed at the rim a lot lately, likely due to both FSU and UL having good height inside.
I agree with your take on Amile, and look forward to many of the problems you (and i) are pointing out to get masked by his return.

It probably isn't best to use per-game numbers for a guy who plays limited minutes. Jeter's block rate is quite good. His scoring is indeed nonexistent though, and his rebound rate is indeed poor for a center.

dukelifer
01-15-2017, 10:24 AM
Well, Carmelo Anthony has tricked NBA teams into paying him more than $200 million (by the end of the season). Does that count? (And what, pray tell, is an "elite teammate?")

The model of an elite teammate is likely to be Lebron James unless you hate Lebron- then he is the devil.

duketaylor
01-15-2017, 10:51 AM
I'm responding to any posts, just my thoughts on watching the game sans announcers.

Duke's D was much improved, much more active and we contested nearly everything and gave up virtually no dribble-drives for easy lay-ups. A few easy put-backs and alley-oops, yes. Had the Cardinals not got hot shooting late in the game the outcome could've been different. They shot 58% in the 2nd half, way above their norm and 47.5% for the game (they avg. 43.8). Snider and Mitchell were 6-13 from 3, well above their average (about 35%).

Duke's O ran in spurts; I thought Kennard passed up too many open looks and Grayson did as well. Louisville played hard on D even at the end when the outcome was decided. Props to them. I think we just need to keep rotating the freshmen in, and as they get used to the size and speed at this level, the game will slow down some and come to them.

I saw much improvement yesterday, now we get a week off, then a couple home games to hopefully right things. Duke always seems to have Jan. or Feb. stretches like this. Even with Amile and K out, I think we'll come together.

SupaDave
01-15-2017, 11:48 AM
The model of an elite teammate is likely to be Lebron James unless you hate Lebron- then he is the devil.

Actually - Lebron is more than an elite teammate - he is an elite team LEADER.

An elite teammate would be Robert Horry. I might even include Battier in this category bc while not an elite athlete he was all around elite. Possibly Bruce Bowen. It's not something that really exists in this age of free agency. In today's NBA - the only player that could really carry that title is Kevin Durant - he's a #2 guy with #1 skills.

NM Duke Fan
01-15-2017, 11:51 AM
I'm responding to any posts, just my thoughts on watching the game sans announcers.

Duke's D was much improved, much more active and we contested nearly everything and gave up virtually no dribble-drives for easy lay-ups. A few easy put-backs and alley-oops, yes. Had the Cardinals not got hot shooting late in the game the outcome could've been different. They shot 58% in the 2nd half, way above their norm and 47.5% for the game (they avg. 43.8). Snider and Mitchell were 6-13 from 3, well above their average (about 35%).

Duke's O ran in spurts; I thought Kennard passed up too many open looks and Grayson did as well. Louisville played hard on D even at the end when the outcome was decided. Props to them. I think we just need to keep rotating the freshmen in, and as they get used to the size and speed at this level, the game will slow down some and come to them.

I saw much improvement yesterday, now we get a week off, then a couple home games to hopefully right things. Duke always seems to have Jan. or Feb. stretches like this. Even with Amile and K out, I think we'll come together.

Thanks for posting, I was not able to see the game and this at least gives me a different perspective than many of the other comments. Encouraging that the dribble drive D was improved, a major achille's hell or heel many years! It is the rare freshman like Winslow who is a great defender by previous training and/or instinct. Most take time to adapt, and the lack of health and continuity has only delayed that process. I look forward to hopefully seeing some of what you outlined next weekend!

uh_no
01-15-2017, 12:02 PM
Duke's D was much improved, much more active and we contested nearly everything and gave up virtually no dribble-drives for easy lay-ups. A few easy put-backs and alley-oops, yes.
This is true, at least early...but UL adjusted and started taking the more open outside shots which lead to:

They shot 58% in the 2nd half, way above their norm and 47.5% for the game (they avg. 43.8).
Many of those shots were not closely contested. Sure, probably better than layups, but good teams are going to knock down those shots...and UL did.


Snider and Mitchell were 6-13 from 3, well above their average (about 35%).

6-13 is well within the range of expected outcomes from 35% shooting. It amounts to a 1 shot difference. Would you say someone shooting 1-1 or 2-2 is "well above their average?" Yes it's technically correct, but also statistically meaningless.



Duke's O ran in spurts; I thought Kennard passed up too many open looks and Grayson did as well. Louisville played hard on D even at the end when the outcome was decided. Props to them. I think we just need to keep rotating the freshmen in, and as they get used to the size and speed at this level, the game will slow down some and come to them. We need to eliminate the low efficiency possessions...we can't have 15+ turnovers a game as we've had the past 3. We can't have tatum and jones making absolutely atrocious decisions routinely. We're not good enough otherwise to get away with it. Golden State thought they were good enough to get away with it...and they got away with it 73 times...and then durant almost, and lebron did make them pay....and boy are we not golden state right now. I'm disappointed very much in jones making those decisions, and less so in tatum, who is a freshman, but one who I'd hoped would have started to be a bit smarter by this point.

SupaDave
01-15-2017, 12:03 PM
Beyond all the chicken littles around here, I would like to highlight what I thought was a very key moment in the game.

2nd half - Annas Mahomound gets the put back dunk. Louisville goes crazy. The team doesn't get down - they immediately get out and push the ball down the court. Giles in particular is at full speed. We throw up a missed shot in transition and then BOOM - Giles with the put back dunk.

That play said a lot to me. Be patient people. It's coming.

Right now the scouting report on us is pretty simple: play physical, blow by the guards, attack the bigs.

The coaches see it and I'm sure it will be worked on.

Currently Bolden reminds me of Zoubek and Mason in their freshmen years - lots of potential but the game is just too much right now.

The game has slowed down some for Jeter - however the competition has ratcheted up a notch and he simply doesn't have the lower body strength to be a force. A zone defense plays more to Jeter's strengths.

When it comes to Tatum - I'm taking a wait and see approach. He's no Rivers - Rivers actually had a spot on the floor he was unstoppable from and absolutely confident in (and yes - it is the spot of the "shot") - but with Tatum the talent is there but so is the mindset that he should be dominating. He has Rasheed moments - which troubles me and correlates to his overall play at times (doesn't get call - doesn't get back on D). He's almost overthinking the game at this point - as witnessed by his charging call when he decided a wide open 3 pointer just was too easy a shot and he needed to up the difficulty for some reason. He's not soft - he likes contact - however it's quite apparent he's not used to calls not going his way. That needs to be fixed.

But again - Giles - getting his bounce. A week off. Some game tape. Quiet time with K. The season is far from over.

"Every team runs their own race." - Coach K

Bob Green
01-15-2017, 12:04 PM
An elite teammate would be Robert Horry.

Really? Horry always came across as a malcontent to me but I admit I don't watch much NBA.

SupaDave
01-15-2017, 12:07 PM
Really? Horry always came across as a malcontent to me but I admit I don't watch much NBA.

You don't get rings with three teams being a malcontent - especially the Spurs.

lotusland
01-15-2017, 12:59 PM
I'm responding to any posts, just my thoughts on watching the game sans announcers.

Duke's D was much improved, much more active and we contested nearly everything and gave up virtually no dribble-drives for easy lay-ups. A few easy put-backs and alley-oops, yes. Had the Cardinals not got hot shooting late in the game the outcome could've been different. They shot 58% in the 2nd half, way above their norm and 47.5% for the game (they avg. 43.8). Snider and Mitchell were 6-13 from 3, well above their average (about 35%).

Duke's O ran in spurts; I thought Kennard passed up too many open looks and Grayson did as well. Louisville played hard on D even at the end when the outcome was decided. Props to them. I think we just need to keep rotating the freshmen in, and as they get used to the size and speed at this level, the game will slow down some and come to them.

I saw much improvement yesterday, now we get a week off, then a couple home games to hopefully right things. Duke always seems to have Jan. or Feb. stretches like this. Even with Amile and K out, I think we'll come together.

Well said - I was about to post something very similar. Despite the outcome, I thought Duke defended much better against Louisville than FSU. As you said the layups were mostly contested and they made long threes at crucial times. Tatum had a poor game. Add Amile and just an average game from Tatum and It's probably a different outcome. I tend to discount the hype about incoming freshmen and expect more from the guys returning than many duke fans so I never had an expectation that we would blow the doors off good teams or go undefeated. The veterans - GA, Luke, Matt, Chase and Amile when he gets back - are playing well. To he a contender, we need Tatum to be ACC ROY candidate and Giles and/Bolden to defend and board consistently.

That's certainly not a given but also not beyond possibility given their raw talent. Giles and Bolden took baby steps forward and Tatum had a teaching moment. We're probably not going to be a 1 seed so Duke needs to focus on getting better and finding a way to win tough games in the meant time.

In another note I will not be at all surprised to see Delaurier play 4 years and be a dominate player as a senior.

FerryFor50
01-15-2017, 01:32 PM
Really? Horry always came across as a malcontent to me but I admit I don't watch much NBA.

He was only a malcontent to opposing teams with his dagger threes and hip checks on opposing point guards. Horry was a consummate teammate. Knew his role and stayed in his lane without complaining.

JMarley50
01-15-2017, 01:45 PM
Not surprised at the reaction from the ACC office. Other reasonable basketball aficionados have a much different take on the incident. Seth Davis(yes, I KNOW he went to Duke) states on his twitter: "The video clearly shows what happened...(Mitchell)intentionally slapped Allen on the forehead." Accepting the ACC's opinion as truth as to what happened in this incident is pathetic. It was a "b...h." slap and "b...h" slaps are not inadvertent(no, I've never given nor received one fortunately).

Bilas chimed in on Seth's take on twitter today. I commented and surprisingly ended up in a back and forth with Bilas. He believes the initial arm to the face was a common foul (which was missed) and the slap would have been a flagrant 1 (if refs saw it). He basically said that stuff happens all the time in basketball and people are being over-sensitive. I respect Jay and really appreciate him engaging with me but I have to disagree on this one. I just want to see someone from mainstream sports media come out and say, yeah Grayson messed up more than once, but it does not excuse retaliation, and officials "missing" these calls are suspect. I have a feeling that won't be the last "incidental slap" this season.

kmspeaks
01-15-2017, 02:13 PM
Bilas chimed in on Seth's take on twitter today. I commented and surprisingly ended up in a back and forth with Bilas. He believes the initial arm to the face was a common foul (which was missed) and the slap would have been a flagrant 1 (if refs saw it). He basically said that stuff happens all the time in basketball and people are being over-sensitive. I respect Jay and really appreciate him engaging with me but I have to disagree on this one. I just want to see someone from mainstream sports media come out and say, yeah Grayson messed up more than once, but it does not excuse retaliation, and officials "missing" these calls are suspect. I have a feeling that won't be the last "incidental slap" this season.

I actually agree with Bilas on this one. This is the same scenario that happened in each of Grayson's trips and happens a lot in basketball. It gets a little chippy, there's a foul(s) committed, and then one guy crosses the line and does something that goes beyond a common foul. It should be a flagrant 1 and then the world should move on.

Now for some reason in Bristol if you cross the line with your feet and trip someone that makes you the devil incarnate whereas if you hit, push, or grab someone it's no big deal, but that's a different story. I am curious as to why there was no review. The game didn't stop so maybe Capel was unable to ask or didn't know to ask for one because he couldn't see the slap.

JMarley50
01-15-2017, 02:34 PM
I actually agree with Bilas on this one. This is the same scenario that happened in each of Grayson's trips and happens a lot in basketball. It gets a little chippy, there's a foul(s) committed, and then one guy crosses the line and does something that goes beyond a common foul. It should be a flagrant 1 and then the world should move on.

Now for some reason in Bristol if you cross the line with your feet and trip someone that makes you the devil incarnate whereas if you hit, push, or grab someone it's no big deal, but that's a different story. I am curious as to why there was no review. The game didn't stop so maybe Capel was unable to ask or didn't know to ask for one because he couldn't see the slap.

I guess that is my biggest gripe and what I was trying to convey to Bilas. There should have been a whistle one way or the other. It was pretty blatant that there was a foul or something. I have a hard time believing that they just "missed" it. I get that basketball is a physical, contact sport and chippy/cheap shots happen. But the idea that a trip is somehow worse than a punch, slap, elbow, or shove is beyond me.

Sgt. Dingleberry
01-15-2017, 02:37 PM
When it comes to Tatum - I'm taking a wait and see approach. He's no Rivers - Rivers actually had a spot on the floor he was unstoppable from and absolutely confident in (and yes - it is the spot of the "shot") - but with Tatum the talent is there but so is the mindset that he should be dominating. He has Rasheed moments - which troubles me and correlates to his overall play at times (doesn't get call - doesn't get back on D). He's almost overthinking the game at this point - as witnessed by his charging call when he decided a wide open 3 pointer just was too easy a shot and he needed to up the difficulty for some reason. He's not soft - he likes contact - however it's quite apparent he's not used to calls not going his way. That needs to be fixed.

Overall, I thought yesterday was a slight improvement over the FSU game. Louisville is a better team than us right now, but we'll see what happens over the next two months.

I kept waiting for us to make a run in the second half. UL kept pushing the lead out and then we would climb right back in it. We fought well yesterday, at the end of the day we just couldn't get stops down the stretch.

With that being said, there were 2 moments in the game where I literally facepalmed....

-The first one was the one you described above where Tatum had Luke open in the corner for three and decided to drive it into two UL defenders and drew the charge.
-The second was Snider came down on a fast break one on one and pulled up and took a three point jump shot which missed really short, the rebound landed in Matt Jones' hands, but he just couldn't hold onto the ball, UL got the loose ball and passed it back around to Snider who drilled a 3.

arnie
01-15-2017, 03:11 PM
In another note I will not be at all surprised to see Delaurier play 4 years and be a dominate player as a senior.

Agree - just hope he does this at Duke.

sagegrouse
01-15-2017, 03:17 PM
Now for some reason in Bristol if you cross the line with your feet and trip someone that makes you the devil incarnate whereas if you hit, push, or grab someone it's no big deal, but that's a different story. I am curious as to why there was no review. The game didn't stop so maybe Capel was unable to ask or didn't know to ask for one because he couldn't see the slap.

You left out three qualifiers I might add:

If you play for Duke (or another of the Bluebloods)
If you are a highly recognized or celebrated player
If it happens three times

And, I might offer a guess that, at the end of the day, all publicity is good.

ncexnyc
01-15-2017, 04:23 PM
Let me clarify my Austin Rivers/Jayson Tatum comment by stating that there are many on this board who blame Austin for the woes of the 2011 team. I believe that Austin brought a shot of much needed attitude to the team and was a very good player for Duke. Any problems associated with the 2011 squad are the result of upper classmen who couldn't or wouldn't assume the necessary leadership role the team needed. I also feel that while that team had talent, it is a lot like our current squad in that we have a number of mismatched parts (loaded backcourt, very thin frontcourt). I'll also say that Austin wasn't a bona fide OAD, let alone a lottery pick, but then I guess it helps when your father is a high ranking management figure in the NBA.

Jayson Tatum has a lot of talent, that is obvious from watching the kid play. Unfortunately, we've had many young men who've exhibited a boatload of talent only to leave us asking after their stay at Duke why weren't they a bigger star. Hopefully Jayson is going through the high school to college transition and within the next few weeks that switch will turn on and his game will go up to the next level.

sagegrouse
01-15-2017, 05:03 PM
Let me clarify my Austin Rivers/Jayson Tatum comment by stating that there are many on this board who blame Austin for the woes of the 2011 team. I believe that Austin brought a shot of much needed attitude to the team and was a very good player for Duke. Any problems associated with the 2011 squad are the result of upper classmen who couldn't or wouldn't assume the necessary leadership role the team needed. I also feel that while that team had talent, it is a lot like our current squad in that we have a number of mismatched parts (loaded backcourt, very thin frontcourt). I'll also say that Austin wasn't a bona fide OAD, let alone a lottery pick, but then I guess it helps when your father is a high ranking management figure in the NBA.

Jayson Tatum has a lot of talent, that is obvious from watching the kid play. Unfortunately, we've had many young men who've exhibited a boatload of talent only to leave us asking after their stay at Duke why weren't they a bigger star. Hopefully Jayson is going through the high school to college transition and within the next few weeks that switch will turn on and his game will go up to the next level.

NCEXNYC: Austin played the 2012 season.

ncexnyc
01-15-2017, 05:09 PM
NCEXNYC: Austin played the 2012 season.

It's listed as 2011-2012, if that makes you feel better and if that discounts what I wrote.

WiJoe
01-15-2017, 05:12 PM
Regarding all the negativity in this thread, rather than call out individual posts, I'll just say this: it was stupid in 2010, it was really stupid in 2015 -- frankly it's been stupid pretty much every season -- but considering all the adversity this year's team has been through, it might be stupidest of all now.

what about '11, '12, '13, '14 & '16? Was it stupid then?

Just askin'

Ultrarunner
01-15-2017, 05:17 PM
what about '11, '12, '13, '14 & '16? Was it stupid then?

Just askin'

Pretty much.

sagegrouse
01-15-2017, 05:26 PM
what about '11, '12, '13, '14 & '16? Was it stupid then?

Just askin'


Pretty much.

This is a public site, and we need to make sure that we don't get mired down in anti-Duke and anti-team wrangles. Think of it as NOT having a food fight among employees in the window display at Neiman-Marcus.

Kjeffrey
01-15-2017, 08:05 PM
Agree - just hope he does this at Duke.

Yeah it makes me think of Semi Ojeleye. Hope Javin sticks around rather than being a superstar somewhere else. Btw, I think we could use Semi right now.

Saratoga2
01-15-2017, 08:52 PM
I'm responding to any posts, just my thoughts on watching the game sans announcers.

Duke's D was much improved, much more active and we contested nearly everything and gave up virtually no dribble-drives for easy lay-ups. A few easy put-backs and alley-oops, yes. Had the Cardinals not got hot shooting late in the game the outcome could've been different. They shot 58% in the 2nd half, way above their norm and 47.5% for the game (they avg. 43.8). Snider and Mitchell were 6-13 from 3, well above their average (about 35%).

Duke's O ran in spurts; I thought Kennard passed up too many open looks and Grayson did as well. Louisville played hard on D even at the end when the outcome was decided. Props to them. I think we just need to keep rotating the freshmen in, and as they get used to the size and speed at this level, the game will slow down some and come to them.

I saw much improvement yesterday, now we get a week off, then a couple home games to hopefully right things. Duke always seems to have Jan. or Feb. stretches like this. Even with Amile and K out, I think we'll come together.

Kennard knows pretty much when he has a shot. In my view, he was closely guarded throughout and had few opportunities for open shots. He had to work hard to score the 17 he got. Opponents are going to stay with him as a way to neutralize a big part of Duke scoring. The way to discourage that defensive approach is to get some scoring in the front court. So far that has been missing except for Amile.

CameronBlue
01-15-2017, 09:03 PM
Kennard knows pretty much when he has a shot. In my view, he was closely guarded throughout and had few opportunities for open shots. He had to work hard to score the 17 he got. Opponents are going to stay with him as a way to neutralize a big part of Duke scoring. The way to discourage that defensive approach is to get some scoring in the front court. So far that has been missing except for Amile.

I agree pretty much with this observation. Kennard must catch and shoot in rhythm. Fortunately he has a quick release and it doesn't take him long to find his "space". But L-Ville, aggressive on defense, closed quickly on Duke's outside shooters when they were open. It's to Kennard's credit that he didn't shoot when rushed. Both the FSU and the Lville games show that he needs to work a bit harder moving without the ball and Duke screeners need to create a bit more space for him. Another problem that Amile's return can help fix.

gofurman
01-15-2017, 10:01 PM
I agree pretty much with this observation. Kennard must catch and shoot in rhythm. Fortunately he has a quick release and it doesn't take him long to find his "space". But L-Ville, aggressive on defense, closed quickly on Duke's outside shooters when they were open. It's to Kennard's credit that he didn't shoot when rushed. Both the FSU and the Lville games show that he needs to work a bit harder moving without the ball and Duke screeners need to create a bit more space for him. Another problem that Amile's return can help fix.

Right. And don't forget Louisville is or was the number one ranked D. Number one! Let's give. Credit to the opponent. FSU and especially Louisville are great D teams.

So there is that. This wasn't GT we were playing

Skydog
01-15-2017, 10:50 PM
Let me clarify my Austin Rivers/Jayson Tatum comment by stating that there are many on this board who blame Austin for the woes of the 2011 team. I believe that Austin brought a shot of much needed attitude to the team and was a very good player for Duke. Any problems associated with the 2011 squad are the result of upper classmen who couldn't or wouldn't assume the necessary leadership role the team needed. I also feel that while that team had talent, it is a lot like our current squad in that we have a number of mismatched parts (loaded backcourt, very thin frontcourt). ...
Ok this is off topic and probably a waste of time - but I disagree. Austin was not a "very good" player for Duke and the rest of the class weren't the source of all problems. Austin led the team in minutes played (88%) and possessions used (24%) but that was about it. His offensive efficiency of 104.7 pts/100 possessions was 8th out of 10 players on his own team and one of the worst averages for a starting guard ever at Duke. Yes he could create his own shot - he just wasn't very good at making it once he did. His true shooting percentage was 8th place on the team and much worse than his fellow starters. His best trait was that he drew a lot of fouls. But again that was offset somewhat by the fact that at 65% he was the worst ft shooter on the team not named Plumlee.

But his worst trait (and the one that made me and a lot of others not a fan) was that as a playmaker he was a black hole - once he got the ball his teammates were unlikely to ever see it again. I'm pretty sure he is the only Duke pg in modern times to average more turnovers (2.3) than assists (2.1). Not 100% sure that last statement is true. Yes he ended up all-ACC but mainly because he led the team in scoring. Not difficult when you are taking by far the most shots.

And the Lehigh game was a typical Austin Rivers game. High volume, inefficient shooting? Check - 5 of 14 from the field. Good at getting to the line? Check, 7 of 10 from the line. No playmaking? Check - 1 assist and 2 turnovers. Those were typical and are not "very good" stats. Especially not against a Lehigh team on a neutral floor. Btw in the same game Mason was 9 of 9 from the floor with 12 rebounds and 3 blocks. But in true form the rest of our team was pretty invisible - no one else scored more than 7.

Can you be a mediocre player and have a shot of a lifetime? Hell yes! And I will always be grateful for that. But otherwise, nah.

uh_no
01-15-2017, 11:11 PM
Ok this is off topic and probably a waste of time - but I disagree. Austin was not a "very good" player for Duke and the rest of the class weren't the source of all problems. Austin led the team in minutes played (88%) and possessions used (24%) but that was about it. His offensive efficiency of 104.7 pts/100 possessions was 8th out of 10 players on his own team and one of the worst averages for a starting guard ever at Duke. Yes he could create his own shot - he just wasn't very good at making it once he did. His true shooting percentage was 8th place on the team and much worse than his fellow starters. His best trait was that he drew a lot of fouls. But again that was offset somewhat by the fact that at 65% he was the worst ft shooter on the team not named Plumlee.

But his worst trait (and the one that made me and a lot of others not a fan) was that as a playmaker he was a black hole - once he got the ball his teammates were unlikely to ever see it again. I'm pretty sure he is the only Duke pg in modern times to average more turnovers (2.3) than assists (2.1). Not 100% sure that last statement is true. Yes he ended up all-ACC but mainly because he led the team in scoring. Not difficult when you are taking by far the most shots.

And the Lehigh game was a typical Austin Rivers game. High volume, inefficient shooting? Check - 5 of 14 from the field. Good at getting to the line? Check, 7 of 10 from the line. No playmaking? Check - 1 assist and 2 turnovers. Those were typical and are not "very good" stats. Especially not against a Lehigh team on a neutral floor. Btw in the same game Mason was 9 of 9 from the floor with 12 rebounds and 3 blocks. But in true form the rest of our team was pretty invisible - no one else scored more than 7.

Can you be a mediocre player and have a shot of a lifetime? Hell yes! And I will always be grateful for that. But otherwise, nah.

I think any comment absolving austin rivers of a lions share of responsibility for that team is borderline revisionist history. If I recall, Seth Curry pretty much came out and said he had been an issue, both on the court and in terms of team chemisty. The shot at UNC, I think, epitomizes that. no way coach K drew up a pull up 3 in that situation....and the fact that Seth was waving him to make a play (maybe the play that was drawn up in the huddle) at least provides some evidence to that fact.

It's no surprise, at least to me, that the team the next year, playing largely the same personnel (sheed for austin) was perhaps a ryan kelly injury away from the final four.

JNort
01-15-2017, 11:14 PM
Ok this is off topic and probably a waste of time - but I disagree. Austin was not a "very good" player for Duke and the rest of the class weren't the source of all problems. Austin led the team in minutes played (88%) and possessions used (24%) but that was about it. His offensive efficiency of 104.7 pts/100 possessions was 8th out of 10 players on his own team and one of the worst averages for a starting guard ever at Duke. Yes he could create his own shot - he just wasn't very good at making it once he did. His true shooting percentage was 8th place on the team and much worse than his fellow starters. His best trait was that he drew a lot of fouls. But again that was offset somewhat by the fact that at 65% he was the worst ft shooter on the team not named Plumlee.

But his worst trait (and the one that made me and a lot of others not a fan) was that as a playmaker he was a black hole - once he got the ball his teammates were unlikely to ever see it again. I'm pretty sure he is the only Duke pg in modern times to average more turnovers (2.3) than assists (2.1). Not 100% sure that last statement is true. Yes he ended up all-ACC but mainly because he led the team in scoring. Not difficult when you are taking by far the most shots.

And the Lehigh game was a typical Austin Rivers game. High volume, inefficient shooting? Check - 5 of 14 from the field. Good at getting to the line? Check, 7 of 10 from the line. No playmaking? Check - 1 assist and 2 turnovers. Those were typical and are not "very good" stats. Especially not against a Lehigh team on a neutral floor. Btw in the same game Mason was 9 of 9 from the floor with 12 rebounds and 3 blocks. But in true form the rest of our team was pretty invisible - no one else scored more than 7.

Can you be a mediocre player and have a shot of a lifetime? Hell yes! And I will always be grateful for that. But otherwise, nah.
Well at the time he wasn't a pg, he came in as a scoring 2 guard. Yes he was inefficient but that was once again due to a lack of help from just about anyone on that team and being the focus of a defense as a freshman. Yes he shot a ton but again it's because he was the only one who could actually get a shot off on that team at the time. Yes I will agree to an extent that he didn't pass enough but once again A) Freshmen B) Lack of talent around him C) Scoring guard and not a pg.

uh_no
01-15-2017, 11:29 PM
Well at the time he wasn't a pg, he came in as a scoring 2 guard. Yes he was inefficient but that was once again due to a lack of help from just about anyone on that team and being the focus of a defense as a freshman. Yes he shot a ton but again it's because he was the only one who could actually get a shot off on that team at the time. Yes I will agree to an extent that he didn't pass enough but once again A) Freshmen B) Lack of talent around him C) Scoring guard and not a pg.

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Duke&y=2012

There were four players on that team in the top 300 in the country for offensive rating.
Among them:
Seth Curry #279
Ryan Kelly #87
Andre Dawkins #236
Miles Plumlee #138

Austin had a better rating than exactly one person on the team: Josh Hairston.

With three fantastic three point shooters on the team in Kelly, All Day Dre, and Curry, it's inexplicable that Austin took so many shots. Saying he got no help from anyone else is disingenuous. "getting a shot off" is both a team and an individual skill. Yeah he could create space....but that means he should have been able to create for his more efficient teammates as well.

Lack of talent around him? Really? The same guys went to the elite 8 the next year without him. I mean, it's not like there weren't 4 other NBA players on that team or anything (plumlee, plumlee, curry, kelly).

The distinction between scoring and point guard is really not a good attribution. He could have distributed if he wanted to. Look at what grayson's done this year, or what jon did a few years earlier. You can't excuse selfishness in a guard by saying "well i'm a scoring guard." That's simply rationalizing a major weakness in one's game.

Steven43
01-16-2017, 12:11 AM
Ok this is off topic and probably a waste of time - but I disagree. Austin was not a "very good" player for Duke and the rest of the class weren't the source of all problems. Austin led the team in minutes played (88%) and possessions used (24%) but that was about it. His offensive efficiency of 104.7 pts/100 possessions was 8th out of 10 players on his own team and one of the worst averages for a starting guard ever at Duke. Yes he could create his own shot - he just wasn't very good at making it once he did. His true shooting percentage was 8th place on the team and much worse than his fellow starters. His best trait was that he drew a lot of fouls. But again that was offset somewhat by the fact that at 65% he was the worst ft shooter on the team not named Plumlee.

But his worst trait (and the one that made me and a lot of others not a fan) was that as a playmaker he was a black hole - once he got the ball his teammates were unlikely to ever see it again. I'm pretty sure he is the only Duke pg in modern times to average more turnovers (2.3) than assists (2.1). Not 100% sure that last statement is true. Yes he ended up all-ACC but mainly because he led the team in scoring. Not difficult when you are taking by far the most shots.

And the Lehigh game was a typical Austin Rivers game. High volume, inefficient shooting? Check - 5 of 14 from the field. Good at getting to the line? Check, 7 of 10 from the line. No playmaking? Check - 1 assist and 2 turnovers. Those were typical and are not "very good" stats. Especially not against a Lehigh team on a neutral floor. Btw in the same game Mason was 9 of 9 from the floor with 12 rebounds and 3 blocks. But in true form the rest of our team was pretty invisible - no one else scored more than 7.

Can you be a mediocre player and have a shot of a lifetime? Hell yes! And I will always be grateful for that. But otherwise, nah.

Yes, yes, and yes. Rivers' shot to beat UNC was my favorite in the history of basketball. And he did make some other plays of note during his one season at Duke. However, his lack of leadership traits, abysmal shot selection, terrible shooting form, below average passing ability, poor free throw shooting, often negative disposition, and perhaps the consistently worst decision-making I have ever seen by a Duke guard combined to make him one of the most disappointing players ever to wear the Blue Devil uniform.

I hate to be so negative these days, but it seems there isn't a whole heck of a lot to feel good about. The massively depressing election outcome combined with my concern for Coach, my wariness of Jeff Capel taking over the reins, the unbelievable spate of injuries to our guys, the whole one-and-done thing, and worst of all, the Dallas Cowboys providing the most gut-wrenching football loss of my entire life have all combined to bring on some serious blues. But hey, maybe things will start to turn around beginning with the upcoming Miami game. I'm all in on that.

richardjackson199
01-16-2017, 03:31 AM
Yes, yes, and yes. Rivers' shot to beat UNC was my favorite in the history of basketball. And he did make some other plays of note during his one season at Duke. However, his lack of leadership traits, abysmal shot selection, terrible shooting form, below average passing ability, poor free throw shooting, often negative disposition, and perhaps the consistently worst decision-making I have ever seen by a Duke guard combined to make him one of the most disappointing players ever to wear the Blue Devil uniform.

I hate to be so negative these days, but it seems there isn't a whole heck of a lot to feel good about. The massively depressing election outcome combined with my concern for Coach, my wariness of Jeff Capel taking over the reins, the unbelievable spate of injuries to our guys, the whole one-and-done thing, and worst of all, the Dallas Cowboys providing the most gut-wrenching football loss of my entire life have all combined to bring on some serious blues. But hey, maybe things will start to turn around beginning with the upcoming Miami game. I'm all in on that.

Yes, if you truly love Duke please stop trashing all current and former Duke players on this board. I see you also just disparaged Harry in the 2017 recruiting thread. Harry is giving his all to this team, despite some advising him not to. Harry was ranked the #1 player in the loaded 2016 class for a reason, and by the end of this year you're going to see why.

I'm also not happy with the outcome of any of the sporting events this weekend. Chalk it up to Friday the 13 weekend. I just think Duke fans should support our current and former players. They chose Duke and have given us some pretty incredible memories. And if we support them, they just might give us some more.

Devilwin
01-16-2017, 06:27 AM
Yes, if you truly love Duke please stop trashing all current and former Duke players on this board. I see you also just disparaged Harry in the 2017 recruiting thread. Harry is giving his all to this team, despite some advising him not to. Harry was ranked the #1 player in the loaded 2016 class for a reason, and by the end of this year you're going to see why.

I'm also not happy with the outcome of any of the sporting events this weekend. Chalk it up to Friday the 13 weekend. I just think Duke fans should support our current and former players. They chose Duke and have given us some pretty incredible memories. And if we support them, they just might give us some more.
Ok. Agreed, we're all Duke fans. A lot of us are bent because this never ending streak of bad luck won't end, it seems. Let's give it a little more time. Surely Amile and K will be back soon, and all will be well.
Go Packers!!

jimmiles
01-16-2017, 06:46 AM
Yes, if you truly love Duke please stop trashing all current and former Duke players on this board. I see you also just disparaged Harry in the 2017 recruiting thread. Harry is giving his all to this team, despite some advising him not to. Harry was ranked the #1 player in the loaded 2016 class for a reason, and by the end of this year you're going to see why.

I'm also not happy with the outcome of any of the sporting events this weekend. Chalk it up to Friday the 13 weekend. I just think Duke fans should support our current and former players. They chose Duke and have given us some pretty incredible memories. And if we support them, they just might give us some more.

Amen and
amen..I just do not see the value of continuing to beat up Duke kids, who just happen to be representing all of us. As it was pointed out on an earlier entry this is a public site and do not believe the kids themselves don't read the comments, and the prospects do as well. Now considering this can someone please explain to me the benefit of trashing our players?? We need to "cool it" and let the best coaching staff in America work out the kinks..meanwhile be thankful for our program. One of the posters recently discussed where Tatum should be playing. These kind of comments are comical. As if Coach Capel needs his advice. Good Grief..give me a break!!

Matches
01-16-2017, 07:38 AM
Well, I liked Rivers. Definitely he had some weaknesses in his game but he was a very good player for us - you don't become 1st team All ACC just by jacking up a lot of shots. AR was a fierce competitor. It's true that he was a ball-stopper on offense but I never thought he was an unwilling passer, just not a particularly good one. He's refined that skill as he's gotten older but he was a work-in-progress at Duke, as most freshmen are. The 2012 team did have some chemistry/ personality issues but that wasn't all about AR, and though that team did indeed have four other NBA players on it (5 if you count Dawkins' cup of coffee), AR was the only one who remotely resembled one at the time.

The AR/ Tatum comparisons are not unfair but Tatum has more talent around him than AR did, and Tatum's not playing a playmaking position really. He's a better defender than Rivers was at that stage, not as good a shooter. Clearly we need better efficiency from Tatum and the body language after foul calls has got to improve. (Actually the whole team could use a Hurley Video IMO - as a group we spend more time aghast at foul calls than any Duke team I can remember.)

Spanarkel
01-16-2017, 08:58 AM
Right. And don't forget Louisville is or was the number one ranked D. Number one! Let's give. Credit to the opponent. FSU and especially Louisville are great D teams.

So there is that. This wasn't GT we were playing


I agree with your observation about UL's defense. Tough/relentless. I know it's early in the season but one has to admire what GT has done in the league so far(3-2 having played UNC, UL, DU). Doubt that GT continues to win 60% of their games, however.

JNort
01-16-2017, 10:34 AM
http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Duke&y=2012

There were four players on that team in the top 300 in the country for offensive rating.
Among them:
Seth Curry #279
Ryan Kelly #87
Andre Dawkins #236
Miles Plumlee #138

Austin had a better rating than exactly one person on the team: Josh Hairston.

With three fantastic three point shooters on the team in Kelly, All Day Dre, and Curry, it's inexplicable that Austin took so many shots. Saying he got no help from anyone else is disingenuous. "getting a shot off" is both a team and an individual skill. Yeah he could create space...but that means he should have been able to create for his more efficient teammates as well.

Lack of talent around him? Really? The same guys went to the elite 8 the next year without him. I mean, it's not like there weren't 4 other NBA players on that team or anything (plumlee, plumlee, curry, kelly).

The distinction between scoring and point guard is really not a good attribution. He could have distributed if he wanted to. Look at what grayson's done this year, or what jon did a few years earlier. You can't excuse selfishness in a guard by saying "well i'm a scoring guard." That's simply rationalizing a major weakness in one's game.

I think you just completely ignored most everything in my previous post...

Steven43
01-16-2017, 11:39 AM
Yes, if you truly love Duke please stop trashing all current and former Duke players on this board. I see you also just disparaged Harry in the 2017 recruiting thread. Harry is giving his all to this team, despite some advising him not to. Harry was ranked the #1 player in the loaded 2016 class for a reason, and by the end of this year you're going to see why.

I'm also not happy with the outcome of any of the sporting events this weekend. Chalk it up to Friday the 13 weekend. I just think Duke fans should support our current and former players. They chose Duke and have given us some pretty incredible memories. And if we support them, they just might give us some more.

I understand where you're coming from and I basically agree with it, but I'm not on board with the sermon. I said deserved negative things about Jason Williams' OFF THE COURT character assassination of Grayson Allen. Surely you don't have an issue with me defending Grayson?

The comments about Rivers were par for the course. Haven't personally met a Duke fan that disagreed with the general assessment I gave. But I also complimented Rivers some.

My comments about Harry Giles were in relation to the possibility of him leaving Duke after this season based on what I've been reading and hearing about his current draft assessment. I like Harry and I'm very happy he is on the team. For that matter I hope he stays another year or more. There is no way I would wish for that if I did not like and appreciate him and the potential of what he can bring to the team.

You may wish to take a pause and refrain from the personal attacks on other posters. I love Duke Basketball, as do the vast majority of us on this board. That does not mean we need to all think and write in lockstep and not even be allowed to voice occasional criticism. Is that really what you want this board to become? I hope not.

sagegrouse
01-16-2017, 11:47 AM
Yes, if you truly love Duke please stop trashing all current and former Duke players on this board. I see you also just disparaged Harry in the 2017 recruiting thread. Harry is giving his all to this team, despite some advising him not to. Harry was ranked the #1 player in the loaded 2016 class for a reason, and by the end of this year you're going to see why.

I'm also not happy with the outcome of any of the sporting events this weekend. Chalk it up to Friday the 13 weekend. I just think Duke fans should support our current and former players. They chose Duke and have given us some pretty incredible memories. And if we support them, they just might give us some more.


I understand where you're coming from and I basically agree with it, but I'm not on board with the sermon. I said deserved negative things about Jason Williams' OFF THE COURT character assassination of Grayson Allen. Surely you don't have an issue with me defending Grayson?

The comments about Rivers were par for the course. Haven't personally met a Duke fan that disagreed with the general assessment I gave. But I also complimented Rivers some.

My comments about Harry Giles were in relation to the possibility of him leaving Duke after this season based on what I've been reading and hearing about his current draft assessment. I like Harry and I'm very happy he is on the team. For that matter I hope he stays another year or more. There is no way I would wish for that if I did not like and appreciate him and the potential of what he can bring to the team.

You may wish to take a pause and refrain from the personal attacks on other posters. I love Duke Basketball, as do the vast majority of us on this board. That does not mean we need to all think and write in lockstep and not even be allowed to voice occasional criticism. Is that really what you want this board to become? I hope not.

Steven43: Richard Jackson did not make a "personal attack" on you. He asked you to stop so many negative comments on present and former Duke players.

uh_no
01-16-2017, 11:51 AM
Steven43: Richard Jackson did not make a "personal attack" on you.


Yes, if you truly love Duke please stop trashing all current and former Duke players on this board.

Questioning someone's fandom is absolutely a personal attack.

Bob Green
01-16-2017, 12:13 PM
Please keep it civil folks. This thread is starting to get a bit testy.

Thanks!

BandAlum83
01-16-2017, 12:28 PM
i would start Giles over Tatum if the goal is to re-establish the mojo the team had earlier. Tatum needs the ball too much to get along with our more efficient scorers, and his defense has been suspect lately.
If Tatum keeps growing as a player, which i suspect he will, he will still be a tremendous asset to the team. From my perspective, he needs to grow as a teammate more than he needs to grow as a player for this team to be the best that it can.

I said this in chat. It wasn't a joke, it is serious.

Tatum shoots when he should pass, passes when he should drive, and drives when he should either pass or shoot.

He is extremely talented, and may very well be the best player and athlete on the floor at any given point in time if not for his decision making. He his alternately over-confident and lacking in confidence each trip down the floor which seems to impact his decision making.

On defense, I personally believe he has been outstanding. He has been disrupting the passing lanes, making steals, and getting his share of blocked or altered shots. His length has been an asset.

Like any freshman, he seems to let the officiating disrupt his focus and confidence.

As the season progresses, I believe the coaches will help him with his decision making, focus and understanding of how he fits in with the team dynamic. By post-season, I do believe Tatum will be a super scintillating diaper dandy superstar.

Just one man's opinion.

ncexnyc
01-16-2017, 12:50 PM
It appears the Austin Rivers comments I've made on this thread have resurrected the haters on this forum. While I realize Austin wasn't a complete player and his game had some holes in it, the haters should do some serious soul searching and ask why a player like that became the face of the 2011-12 team.

Let's start with the Freshman class for that year. The class consisted of Rivers, who was the only 5 star rated player in the group. Quinn Cook, who basically rehabbed his knee that year. Michael Gbinije and Alex Murphy who both eventually bailed on the program and MP3 who ended up being a 5 year player who played well in his last year. So basically you had one player out of an incoming class of five who actually contributed to the team that year.

Now let's look at the 2nd year players from that squad. We have the Bash Brothers, Tyler Thornton and Josh Hairston. Both kids were 100% heart and soul type of players and Tyler was one player I defended tooth and nail on this board, but neither kid was a big contributor during the 2011-12 season.

That leaves us with the upper classmen, the kids that I believe were truly responsible for the woes of that team. The lone senior was Miles Plumlee, a nice role player, but never a leader let alone a star. Then there were the four juniors. Andre Dawkins, whose story is well documented on this board and really doesn't need to be discussed any further. And then we have the group of Seth Curry, Ryan Kelly, and Mason Plumlee. Now all three of these players had previously been minor role players prior to the season in question. It's also true that they would go onto shine in their senior season, but this was their first taste of primetime and of being the man. I honestly don't believe any of them were ready or willing to accept that role, which is why Austin with his Alpha Dog mentality took over that club.

The last piece of this puzzle is the GOAT, Coach K. Now the haters would have you believe that this freshman could in and impose his will on the team and Coach K. would idly standby and let it happen, well if you truly believe that, then there is a bridge in Brooklyn I've got for sale. If this became Austin's team it was with Coach K.'s full blessing and knowledge.

Let me wrap this up by saying that not every season ends with a great run, let alone a championship. As Duke fans we've had the pleasure of seeing some high level basketball played at an unbelievably consistent level, maybe some of us have become spoiled and jaded in our view of the program. Some things aren't meant to be and maybe we as fans need to accept that.

left_hook_lacey
01-16-2017, 12:55 PM
Actually it is spot-on. I am sure officials spent a decent chunk of the offseason getting lectured on not buying players' selling/faking fouls. Allen flails his body about as much as anyone to sell calls. It worked great last year. Officials seem much more reluctant to give him calls this year.

I agree with this. I personally can't stand the head-snapping that some of this players do now whenever a defender gets remotely close to them. It's so annoying to watch. Play ball. Not singling Grayson out, it's become an epidemic throughout the college game.

I would have to think that the refs review games and probably don't like being fooled into calls over and over again. As CDU said, once you have that "reputation" of a faker/flailer, a little bit of boy who cried wolf creeps in and you don't get the calls you actually did get hit on.

richardjackson199
01-16-2017, 01:18 PM
I understand where you're coming from and I basically agree with it, but I'm not on board with the sermon. I said deserved negative things about Jason Williams' OFF THE COURT character assassination of Grayson Allen. Surely you don't have an issue with me defending Grayson?

The comments about Rivers were par for the course. Haven't personally met a Duke fan that disagreed with the general assessment I gave. But I also complimented Rivers some.

My comments about Harry Giles were in relation to the possibility of him leaving Duke after this season based on what I've been reading and hearing about his current draft assessment. I like Harry and I'm very happy he is on the team. For that matter I hope he stays another year or more. There is no way I would wish for that if I did not like and appreciate him and the potential of what he can bring to the team.

You may wish to take a pause and refrain from the personal attacks on other posters. I love Duke Basketball, as do the vast majority of us on this board. That does not mean we need to all think and write in lockstep and not even be allowed to voice occasional criticism. Is that really what you want this board to become? I hope not.

Steven43, I'm sorry. I got flamed by a very respected poster on this board for my post, and I deserved it. I fully agree with our board's decorum of "attack the post" not the poster. DBR should be a friendly place to share ideas about the team we love. In the future, I will take a pause and do my best to refrain from personal attacks on other posters, even if I don't like at all what they are saying.

What upsets me is that when someone disparages a current/former Duke player, it can entice others who are frustrated to do the same. That line of posting on a public message board is tantamount to trolling, because it can lead a frustrated fanbase to join in and start trashing their own players. To be clear, I'm not calling you a troll. I'm just saying that trying to get Duke fan message board posters to trash their own players IS what trolls do. That is why they pose as Duke fans. And negative comments CAN get back to those players and their families. And that can lead to more negative consequences for the team we love. I am not saying you were trying to get Duke fan message board posters to join into trashing Duke players. I'm just saying it could be an unintended consequence of disparaging posts toward Duke players.

Cameron Indoor Stadium is probably the nation's best example of how fans can have a real, positive impact on the fortunes of their team. But fans can also have a negative impact on their team, and publicly trashing their players is one way to do it. I think most of us would agree that no one who loves Duke basketball would want to do anything which could have negative consequences for our team or players. That was the intent of what I was trying to communicate. I'm certain that many would disagree with me about how much, if any impact message board posting could have. I really don't want to start that or any tangential debate.

I don't want this message board to become a place where people can't criticize things that need criticizing, including our players/coaches. There is a difference between criticism and trashing. Sometimes I think some of these posts have crossed that line. I thought one of the rules of this forum was not to trash our players or coaches, but maybe I'm wrong about that. I didn't understand the necessity of trashing Austin Rivers in this thread. I also think it's safe to assume that Harry's draft stock is extremely important to him and his family. I loved his article on why he is choosing to give Duke his all anyway. I didn't want to start reading Duke fans start talking about all the reasons why no NBA GM should draft Harry in the first round, and I don't agree with that at all. Plenty of players have recovered fully from 2 bad injuries (to different limbs in this case), or more. See Thomas Davis with the Panthers. JWill did a LOT for Duke. Think back to the joy of 2001. Coach Capel has given and is giving his all to Duke. I'm just saying please remember that before posting.

I will really try to refrain from any more personal attacks. I was wrong and I'm sorry. Criticism and different opinions are welcome. If I'm attacking another poster, I won't push send and will delete. I'm just asking to also please consider also taking a pause yourself and asking before posting something if you are disparaging or trashing a current or former Duke player/coach who has given or is trying to give his all to the team we love.