MBB: Duke vs Louisville Pre-Game and In-Game Thread (noon, ESPN)

[CDu]

Okay, we've had about 20 hours of self flagellation over the FSU game. It's probably time to move on to starting thinking about the next game.

[DukeWarhead]

Okay, we've had about 20 hours of self flagellation over the FSU game. It's probably time to move on to starting thinking about the next game.

I'm hoping more flagellation isn't in order after the next one, but....
I'm assuming that Louisville isn't quite as good this year as FSU, so maybe the outcome will be better. I dunno. Not very confident right now.

[Wahoo2000]

If there's any game to use a lot of zone in.... this is it. Have you see their shooting? yuck. Capel should be spending the next couple days practicing that zone and getting guys good at finding a body when a shot goes up. If you play solid zone defense, the only way you lose this game is if you get murdered on the glass and give up a ton of stickbacks. (ok, there's also the chance that a couple of their guys have out-of-body shooting nights, but if that's the case you probably lose no matter what kind of defense you play).

Your offense is more than good enough to win, the defense and control of the defensive glass will tell the tale.

edited to add this:
Feel like Pitino's teams have been poor at shooting and playing halfcourt offense in recent seasons, probably why we've owned them. The packline (or a good zone) forces them to shoot jumpers. Limit transition, pack it in, and don't give up offensive boards. That's Louisville kryptonite.

[davekay1971]

Assuming Grayson is playing after bonking his head in the FSU game, I am breathlessly awaiting what the official ESPN Grayson Allen Super Slow-Mo Analysis Team finds for us. Will Grayson appear to touch an opponent with is toe? Nudge a cheerleader on an out-of-bounds play? Blow a booger out of his nose on someone? Will his shorts ripple with flatus in the direction of Rick Pitino?

This might end up becoming a good ESPN drinking game...

[jacone21]

I've watched every televised Duke game for 25+ years when at all possible. I'm going to skip this one. I simply can't deal with ESPN's hard hitting, in-game reporting and Grayson cam extravaganza. Just can't do it. Will they have one or two sideline reporters? Have they found elementary school footage that shows Grayson tripping little Tommy Wilson while playing kickball at recess? ESPN doesn't get my eyeballs this weekend. Y'all hold it down and I'll catch you in the post game.

Sorry to be negative, but when it's no longer enjoyable, what's the point? Damn shame.

[Tripping William]

Assuming Grayson is playing after bonking his head in the FSU game, I am breathlessly awaiting what the official ESPN Grayson Allen Super Slow-Mo Analysis Team finds for us. Will Grayson appear to touch an opponent with is toe? Nudge a cheerleader on an out-of-bounds play? Blow a booger out of his nose on someone? Will his shorts ripple with flatus in the direction of Rick Pitino?

This might end up becoming a good ESPN drinking game...

He is going to slam hiis face into some poor Louisville player's elbow. Like last year.

[CDu]

Okay, so we just got through our toughest game to date. The reward? We get a similarly-tough matchup against Louisville. Yay.

There are some similarities between Louisville and FSU. Both teams are long and athletic, both teams employ a center by committee approach, and both teams play a relatively deep bench. But there are some differences. For one thing, the Cardinals don't shoot well, whereas FSU can shoot it. Another is that Louisville is a much bigger user of the press, and more willing to play zone than FSU.

Up front, Louisville primarily rotates between Anas Mahmoud (7'0", 215lb junior from Egypt) and Mangok Mathiang (6'10", 230lb senior from Australia). Mahmoud is the silkier player, with a bit of an offensive game. Mathiang is a bit more rugged and less polished offensively. The two combine for about 11 ppg, 10 rpg, and 4 bpg and 5.5 fpg in 39 mpg. Mathiang is the better rebounder, Mahmoud the better shotblocker. Neither is really a go-to presence on offense and get most of their buckets off the backs of their guards and putbacks. In case of emergency, they'll throw Matz Stockman (7'0", 240lb junior from Norway) in there. Stockman is the least skilled but most rugged of the trio. But he plays very sparingly.

At the forward, Johnson (6'9", 230lb junior) and Spalding (6'10", 215lb sophomore) eat up the minutes at PF. They combine for 15 ppg and 12.5 rpg in about 39.5 mpg. Both are long and athletic and aggressive in the paint. Neither is much of a shooter, but shots are easier to make from 0-2 feet. And they get a lot of those.

On the wings, the Cardinals have a trio of talented slashers. Mitchell (6'3", 200lb sophomore), Adel (6'7", 200lb sophomore from Australia), and King (6'6", 190lb freshman) can score. Mitchell and King were both top-30 recruits in their classes, and both are good athletes. Adel wasn't rated out of high school, but the Cardinals are very high on his potential. He's stepped into more of a starring role this year (behind leading scorer Mitchell). Mitchell and Adel are both very inconsistent as shooters but both are explosive athletes and can get to the rim. King is a little less explosive, but has the highest 3pt % on the team by far. But it is on a very low number of attempts (8 of 19). He didn't come to college with the reputation as a shooter, but so far he's exhibiting it (80.6% from the line).

The PG spot is manned primarily by Quentin Snider (6'2", 175lb junior). Snider shot really well last year, but that hasn't carried over to this year. As a PG, he is more of a caretaker than a playmaker. Behind him is senior transfer Tony Hicks (6'1", 175lb senior from UPenn). Hicks is sort of like Snider in that he isn't a playmaking PG but can score a little.

Lack of shooting and lack of a PG have been Louisville's biggest weaknesses the past couple of years, and this year appears to be more of the same. The Cardinals really stagnate in the half-court offense. A good zone can make them look like a joke offensively. UVa brought their pack line approach (which is closer to a compact zone than extended man-to-man) and walloped the Cardinals in Louisville too. The zone was a key to us giving the Cards a beatdown last year. And I'd suggest that trying to play extended man-to-man defense against them is a recipe for trouble. Louisville has the size and athleticism to punish us on the glass, and we really want them shooting jumpers rather than getting into the paint.

But one of the main ways Louisville scores is via turnovers. They press a lot, and they can go on extended runs by forcing turnovers with that pressure. They are a terrible half-court team offensively, but they mask that with a frenetic full-court defense that gets them easy buckets.

If we do get them in the half court game, they will be very physical, and they will contest everything around the basket. But they can be had in the half-court defensively.

Needless to say, though, getting back on defense is going to be critical. We want to make Louisville a half-court team. They are not very impressive at all in a half-court game.

[devildeac]

Assuming Grayson is playing after bonking his head in the FSU game, I am breathlessly awaiting what the official ESPN Grayson Allen Super Slow-Mo Analysis Team finds for us. Will Grayson appear to touch an opponent with is toe? Nudge a cheerleader on an out-of-bounds play? Blow a booger out of his nose on someone? Will his shorts ripple with flatus in the direction of Rick Pitino?

This might end up becoming a good ESPN drinking game...

And heaven forbid he "waves his private parts at their aunties."

:rolleyes:

[NSDukeFan]

Assuming Grayson is playing after bonking his head in the FSU game, I am breathlessly awaiting what the official ESPN Grayson Allen Super Slow-Mo Analysis Team finds for us. Will Grayson appear to touch an opponent with is toe? Nudge a cheerleader on an out-of-bounds play? Blow a booger out of his nose on someone? Will his shorts ripple with flatus in the direction of Rick Pitino?

This might end up becoming a good ESPN drinking game...
I like Tripping William's response.

I've watched every televised Duke game for 25+ years when at all possible. I'm going to skip this one. I simply can't deal with ESPN's hard hitting, in-game reporting and Grayson cam extravaganza. Just can't do it. Will they have one or two sideline reporters? Have they found elementary school footage that shows Grayson tripping little Tommy Wilson while playing kickball at recess? ESPN doesn't get my eyeballs this weekend. Y'all hold it down and I'll catch you in the post game.

Sorry to be negative, but when it's no longer enjoyable, what's the point? Damn shame.
Tommy is still pretty upset about that, though he , of course, was never in any risk of getting injured.

He is going to slam hiis face into some poor Louisville player's elbow. Like last year.

That was the first thing I thought as well.

[MartyClark]

Okay, so we just got through our toughest game to date. The reward? We get a similarly-tough matchup against Louisville. Yay.

There are some similarities between Louisville and FSU. Both teams are long and athletic, both teams employ a center by committee approach, and both teams play a relatively deep bench. But there are some differences. For one thing, the Cardinals don't shoot well, whereas FSU can shoot it. Another is that Louisville is a much bigger user of the press, and more willing to play zone than FSU.

Up front, Louisville primarily rotates between Anas Mahmoud (7'0", 215lb junior from Egypt) and Mangok Mathiang (6'10", 230lb senior from Australia). Mahmoud is the silkier player, with a bit of an offensive game. Mathiang is a bit more rugged and less polished offensively. The two combine for about 11 ppg, 10 rpg, and 4 bpg and 5.5 fpg in 39 mpg. Mathiang is the better rebounder, Mahmoud the better shotblocker. Neither is really a go-to presence on offense and get most of their buckets off the backs of their guards and putbacks. In case of emergency, they'll throw Matz Stockman (7'0", 240lb junior from Norway) in there. Stockman is the least skilled but most rugged of the trio. But he plays very sparingly.

At the forward, Johnson (6'9", 230lb junior) and Spalding (6'10", 215lb sophomore) eat up the minutes at PF. They combine for 15 ppg and 12.5 rpg in about 39.5 mpg. Both are long and athletic and aggressive in the paint. Neither is much of a shooter, but shots are easier to make from 0-2 feet. And they get a lot of those.

On the wings, the Cardinals have a trio of talented slashers. Mitchell (6'3", 200lb sophomore), Adel (6'7", 200lb sophomore from Australia), and King (6'6", 190lb freshman) can score. Mitchell and King were both top-30 recruits in their classes, and both are good athletes. Adel wasn't rated out of high school, but the Cardinals are very high on his potential. He's stepped into more of a starring role this year (behind leading scorer Mitchell). Mitchell and Adel are both very inconsistent as shooters but both are explosive athletes and can get to the rim. King is a little less explosive, but has the highest 3pt % on the team by far. But it is on a very low number of attempts (8 of 19). He didn't come to college with the reputation as a shooter, but so far he's exhibiting it (80.6% from the line).

The PG spot is manned primarily by Quentin Snider (6'2", 175lb junior). Snider shot really well last year, but that hasn't carried over to this year. As a PG, he is more of a caretaker than a playmaker. Behind him is senior transfer Tony Hicks (6'1", 175lb senior from UPenn). Hicks is sort of like Snider in that he isn't a playmaking PG but can score a little.

Lack of shooting and lack of a PG have been Louisville's biggest weaknesses the past couple of years, and this year appears to be more of the same. The Cardinals really stagnate in the half-court offense. A good zone can make them look like a joke offensively. UVa brought their pack line approach (which is closer to a compact zone than extended man-to-man) and walloped the Cardinals in Louisville too. The zone was a key to us giving the Cards a beatdown last year. And I'd suggest that trying to play extended man-to-man defense against them is a recipe for trouble. Louisville has the size and athleticism to punish us on the glass, and we really want them shooting jumpers rather than getting into the paint.

But one of the main ways Louisville scores is via turnovers. They press a lot, and they can go on extended runs by forcing turnovers with that pressure. They are a terrible half-court team offensively, but they mask that with a frenetic full-court defense that gets them easy buckets.

If we do get them in the half court game, they will be very physical, and they will contest everything around the basket. But they can be had in the half-court defensively.

Needless to say, though, getting back on defense is going to be critical. We want to make Louisville a half-court team. They are not very impressive at all in a half-court game.

I was working on my analysis but you said it better. I agree.

I'm going to the game. One of my friends has kept his Louisville season tickets for 25+ years despite practicing law in Denver. We made the trip two years ago and I still remember a point in the game where I thought the Louisville defensive pressure would turn the game. Tyus Jones, of course, handled it.

Go Duke!

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

Last night was rough, but we played pretty well before the roof caved in. I'm still optimistic that this team will continue to improve and be a strong unit come March and April.

-I think it is clear to everybody, especially after last night, that Grayson needs to be the PG and setting up the offense. This will be a really, really good test for him doing just that. He forced a couple of outside shots last night, he needs to work on finding his outside shot within the rhythm of the offense.
-I always like playing teams that can't shoot. Here is hoping that we take care of the ball and don't create easy offense for Louisville.
-Curious to see how Tatum reacts to last night. It seemed like we tried to play through him in the second half and the results were awful. He had a couple of humbling moments at the rim and trying to force passes that weren't there.
-Jeter was one of the bright spots last night. I would like to see him to continue to get minutes, but someone between him and Bolden is probably going to have to sit.
-I'm hoping the defense can improve. I'm assuming we will see some sort of zone like we have done with them in the past.
-Most importantly, this team needs a big road win. I think can could do a lot to bring these guys closer together.

[MarkD83]

The best way to fight all the negative press is to win and let haters fume about it.

Embrace the hate, play aggressively, if there are "gray" areas who cares. The folks on this site will have your back.

[Troublemaker]

I don't think we can re-create 2015 by surprising Louisville with a zone. We should play man because the Cardinals are a team we should be able to defend in man. They play 2 bigs who can't shoot, which will allow us to have more help around the basket. Continue to get those man2man reps in.

On the offensive end, Jayson will need to take advantage of a big man guarding him. Make good decisions. Pass when he forces help.

[Olympic Fan]

On the wings, the Cardinals have a trio of talented slashers. Mitchell (6'3", 200lb sophomore), Adel (6'7", 200lb sophomore from Australia), and King (6'6", 190lb freshman) can score. Mitchell and King were both top-30 recruits in their classes, and both are good athletes. Adel wasn't rated out of high school, but the Cardinals are very high on his potential.

Not sure where are you are looking, but Adel was rated out of prep school in Bradenton, Fla. -- he was the No. 37 prospect in ESPN's 2015 rankings and as high as No. 23 by Scout. He was No. 34 nationally in the RSCI -- just a little behind Mitchell (No. 27 in the 2015 RSCI) and King (No. 25 in the 2016 RSCI)

Otherwise, a fine analysis.

[Wahoo2000]

I don't think we can re-create 2015 by surprising Louisville with a zone. We should play man because the Cardinals are a team we should be able to defend in man. They play 2 bigs who can't shoot, which will allow us to have more help around the basket. Continue to get those man2man reps in.

On the offensive end, Jayson will need to take advantage of a big man guarding him. Make good decisions. Pass when he forces help.

They want you to help off of those bigs. Their best offense is to draw your bigs away from their men, throw up an awful shot, and leave their big guys in good position for an offensive rebound and an easy stickback. If you want to play man and succeed, you've got to be able to stop penetration off the bounce, and if help is needed, it needs to get there before they get into/near the paint. Don't let them reach the lane off the dribble or you're toast. Their offensive efficiency is 47th, and probably 90% of that is due to a VERY good OR% and easy buckets they get from turnovers and in transition.

You only have to do 3 things to win:
1) Make them play a halfcourt game. Be patient offensively, don't turn it over, & GET BACK on defense
2) Keep them out of the paint and make them shoot jumpers
3) Keep them off the offensive glass

You do all three, and you win going away. Probably by double digits.

[Troublemaker]

They want you to help off of those bigs. Their best offense is to draw your bigs away from their men, throw up an awful shot, and leave their big guys in good position for an offensive rebound and an easy stickback. If you want to play man and succeed, you've got to be able to stop penetration off the bounce, and if help is needed, it needs to get there before they get into/near the paint. Don't let them reach the lane off the dribble or you're toast. Their offensive efficiency is 47th, and probably 90% of that is due to a VERY good OR% and easy buckets they get from turnovers and in transition.

You only have to do 3 things to win:
1) Make them play a halfcourt game. Be patient offensively, don't turn it over, & GET BACK on defense
2) Keep them out of the paint and make them shoot jumpers
3) Keep them off the offensive glass

You do all three, and you win going away. Probably by double digits.

I mostly agree. Defensive rebounding will be key, and that will sometimes mean that a wing has to rotate over to cover for a big man that is helping.

I think you may have a warped sense of how easy it is to beat the Cardinals because UVA has owned them. For other teams, we shouldn't expect to be Lville by double-digits. On the road.

That said, Duke did play them very well twice last season. We could've / should've had a sweep but I think Derryck Thornton, who was playing well in the 2nd game, went down with an injury and Louisville made a run. Pretty sure we played mostly m2m against them last year. The two Lville games were part of Duke's hot streak when we played top-5 ball for a few games.

[CDu]

They want you to help off of those bigs. Their best offense is to draw your bigs away from their men, throw up an awful shot, and leave their big guys in good position for an offensive rebound and an easy stickback. If you want to play man and succeed, you've got to be able to stop penetration off the bounce, and if help is needed, it needs to get there before they get into/near the paint. Don't let them reach the lane off the dribble or you're toast. Their offensive efficiency is 47th, and probably 90% of that is due to a VERY good OR% and easy buckets they get from turnovers and in transition.

You only have to do 3 things to win:
1) Make them play a halfcourt game. Be patient offensively, don't turn it over, & GET BACK on defense
2) Keep them out of the paint and make them shoot jumpers
3) Keep them off the offensive glass

You do all three, and you win going away. Probably by double digits.

All of this is dead-on... but easier said than done. Especially with a young team like ours.

You guys have a veteran team with an organized defense and very reliable ballhandlers. Thus, doing the things you said is easy. When you struggle to defend dribble penetration, it gets much harder to defend Louisville.

It is so hard to predict how the game will turn out, because Louisville is so mercurial and inconsistent. If we do the things you've said sufficiently, we will win. But, that is easier said than done.

[Wahoo2000]

All of this is dead-on... but easier said than done. Especially with a young team like ours.

You guys have a veteran team with an organized defense and very reliable ballhandlers. Thus, doing the things you said is easy. When you struggle to defend dribble penetration, it gets much harder to defend Louisville.

It is so hard to predict how the game will turn out, because Louisville is so mercurial and inconsistent. If we do the things you've said sufficiently, we will win. But, that is easier said than done.

Yeah, I didn't mean to make it sound like it was easy to do those things. If it was, everyone would do it and Louisville would be terrible. You have to control the things you can control. Capel should spend the next couple of days beating it into their heads: be patient/slow down and make it a halfcourt grind, value the ball, work for a good shot. Get back, close off driving lanes (if that means going zone, so be it), send everybody to the defensive glass. It's not easy to do, of course, but I feel like the roadmap to beating Louisville is clearer-cut (and easier to execute) than it is vs other top-tier teams who don't rely as heavily on very specific areas of the game to be successful (turnovers, transition, and offensive rebounds).

Even if you guys can't routinely stop penetration, if you can just clean up the defensive glass, limit turnovers, and play a halfcourt grind, I still think you win.

[Bob Green]

If there's any game to use a lot of zone in... this is it. Have you see their shooting? yuck.

With six minutes to go in 1st half, Louisville is 4-6 on 3 PT FGs against Pitt.

[CDu]

With six minutes to go in 1st half, Louisville is 4-6 on 3 PT FGs against Pitt.

That is, needless to say, anomalous. But it bodes well for our game!

[Doria]

Assuming Grayson is playing after bonking his head in the FSU game, I am breathlessly awaiting what the official ESPN Grayson Allen Super Slow-Mo Analysis Team finds for us. Will Grayson appear to touch an opponent with is toe? Nudge a cheerleader on an out-of-bounds play? Blow a booger out of his nose on someone? Will his shorts ripple with flatus in the direction of Rick Pitino?

This might end up becoming a good ESPN drinking game...

Pretty sure if I tried to do this, my liver would just give up and quit on me. Probably by the ten-minute mark of the first half.

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

They want you to help off of those bigs. Their best offense is to draw your bigs away from their men, throw up an awful shot, and leave their big guys in good position for an offensive rebound and an easy stickback. If you want to play man and succeed, you've got to be able to stop penetration off the bounce, and if help is needed, it needs to get there before they get into/near the paint. Don't let them reach the lane off the dribble or you're toast. Their offensive efficiency is 47th, and probably 90% of that is due to a VERY good OR% and easy buckets they get from turnovers and in transition.

You only have to do 3 things to win:
1) Make them play a halfcourt game. Be patient offensively, don't turn it over, & GET BACK on defense
2) Keep them out of the paint and make them shoot jumpers
3) Keep them off the offensive glass

You do all three, and you win going away. Probably by double digits.

So pretty much just play UVA basketball and you'll win?

[brevity]

Have they found elementary school footage that shows Grayson tripping little Tommy Wilson while playing kickball at recess? ESPN doesn't get my eyeballs this weekend. Y'all hold it down and I'll catch you in the post game.

Two points:

1. Your recess line has more insight than you realize. The media onslaught of the past few weeks has turned up zero stories of tripping incidents when Grayson was in high school, as far as I can tell. Maybe every reporter is too dumb to look (possible) or found nothing and stayed quiet (unlikely). It would be nice to definitively shoot down every dopey argument I read in DBR about how Grayson can be excused for his immaturity at college if he was mature in high school...

2. There is life without ESPN television, but you have to watch with your ears. GoDuke lists Blue Devil IMG Network affiliates here (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=187716) and a link to online streaming for registered users here (http://www.goduke.com/liveEvents/liveEvents.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&db_oem_id=4200).

Oh, and let's amend the thread title to indicate the game is at 12 noon ET and on ESPN for us gluttons for punishment.

[NashvilleDevil]

One positive about Saturday is that Louisville won't treat the Duke game like Va. Tech and FSU did. Obviously this game is important and the crowd will be nuts but Louisville saves their vitriol and enthusiasm for the Kentucky game. This one will be a distant 2nd for their fan base.

[-jk]

One positive about Saturday is that Louisville won't treat the Duke game like Va. Tech and FSU did. Obviously this game is important and the crowd will be nuts but Louisville saves their vitriol and enthusiasm for the Kentucky game. This one will be a distant 2nd for their fan base.

Um... Yeah.

Hope so...

-jk

[CDu]

Um... Yeah.

Hope so...

-jk

Haha, yeah. Not holding my breathe. We are almost everyone's first or second-most disliked team. They will find a way to muster up disdain.

Let's not forget that Allen's first tripping incident came against these guys. They will bring the heat as a fanbase.

[uh_no]

excited to see how we come out. i think we'll come out fighting even if it isn't enough.... too often people conflate execution with effort..... i see guys out there busting their butts to make this work, even if it looks bad when they can't execute. i think they'll come out expecting to win this game and an excited to watch that happen.

lgd

[fuse]

I'd like to see Grayson initiate the offense better than he did against FSU.
I'll give credit to FSU defense as that's the first time we've seen that all year.

Alternatively, it would be interesting to see Tatum bring the ball up the court.
FSU pressed Grayson and Frank, the guy they had guarding Tatum just let Tatum take the ball up court.

I'd love to see Tatum value the ball more, and not foul post steal.

I'd love to see Giles seem more actively engaged and not just (what looks like to me) jogging up and down the court.

Might not be possible without Amile, most of all I'd love to see a team chemistry that translates to confidence on the court. A return of Duke swagger, if you will.
A realization of the pre-season juggernaut we were forecasted to be.

Win or lose, want to see that Duke spirit and fight for the entire game.

Let's Go Duke!

[devildeac]

I'm still waiting for FerryFor50 to weigh in here about the umm, "physical" nature of the Cardinals' press. :rolleyes:

[jv001]

Before Amile's injury, he was used to help beat the press. I know that Louisville is a much better pressing team than any of our opponents we've played so far this season and will be new to our freshmen. I think Jayson will be the player Coach Capel uses for that task. One player cannot beat a press consistently unless your name is Hurley or Tyus. It's going to be interesting: 1) Do we use zone as our primary defense and risk losing the rebounding game. Plus, we've not been very good when we've tried it this season. But that's been a small sample of use. However that small sample has me worried about using it. 2) If we play man2man, do we guard 25 feet from the basket? If we do that, I think dribble penetration will kill us. We've not shown we can be very successful playing that kind of D. 3) Do we use the packline D that we used in 2010. This is the Virginia defense that they have mastered to perfection. We have 2 days to work on something and I hope this is the way we go. I'm sure Coach K while not at practices is probably in touch with the coaching staff daily. We need a good effort to win this road game. GoDuke!

[weezie]

You fine people have given me the distinct impression that we're going to win this game.

[Kedsy]

I'd like to see Grayson initiate the offense better than he did against FSU.
I'll give credit to FSU defense as that's the first time we've seen that all year.

Alternatively, it would be interesting to see Tatum bring the ball up the court.

I think Grayson has been doing a great job as PG. I think when Jayson brought the ball up court against FSU, the results were, um, less than stellar.


Do we use the packline D that we used in 2010. This is the Virginia defense that they have mastered to perfection. We have 2 days to work on something and I hope this is the way we go.

(a) we did not use the packline in 2010, or anything close, really;
(b) the packline is a very complicated defense that takes waaaaay more than two days to master;
(c) we will not be using the packline on Saturday.

[jv001]

I think Grayson has been doing a great job as PG. I think when Jayson brought the ball up court against FSU, the results were, um, less than stellar.



(a) we did not use the packline in 2010, or anything close, really;
(b) the packline is a very complicated defense that takes waaaaay more than two days to master;
(c) we will not be using the packline on Saturday.

Will we be man2man around 25 feet from the basket? GoDuke!

[Troublemaker]

Will we be man2man around 25 feet from the basket? GoDuke!

You do realize Duke didn't do that against FSU, right? (At least not during the competitive portions. We may have extended when down big.)

There are like 3 copies of the game on youtube if you want to check for yourself.

The problem with the defense against the Noles was NOT that Duke pressured the ball far from the basket.

Actually, the team that DID extend their defense and was super aggressive in the passing lanes was FSU. They had easily the more aggressive of the two defenses.

People do realize that, right?

[gofurman]

Before Amile's injury, he was used to help beat the press. I know that Louisville is a much better pressing team than any of our opponents we've played so far this season and will be new to our freshmen. I think Jayson will be the player Coach Capel uses for that task. One player cannot beat a press consistently unless your name is Hurley or Tyus. It's going to be interesting: 1) Do we use zone as our primary defense and risk losing the rebounding game. Plus, we've not been very good when we've tried it this season. But that's been a small sample of use. However that small sample has me worried about using it. 2) If we play man2man, do we guard 25 feet from the basket? If we do that, I think dribble penetration will kill us. We've not shown we can be very successful playing that kind of D. 3) Do we use the packline D that we used in 2010. This is the Virginia defense that they have mastered to perfection. We have 2 days to work on something and I hope this is the way we go. I'm sure Coach K while not at practices is probably in touch with the coaching staff daily. We need a good effort to win this road game. GoDuke!

i love this 'pack line' D. Ours in 2010 wasn't the UVA packline. Just a 'sag off the perimeter' m2m I think. We can't seem to get on-the-ball stoppers any more ... We struggle most years to stop dribble penetration yet our 2010 team wasn't supremely fast in the perimeter. Scheyer. Singler etc ?? So we sagged in our m2m and it worked. Let teams shoot 3s and see what happens. It worked in 2010. Louisville would be a great team to,do this with. And this Duke team may need to learn that D after watching BC and VT and FSU all blow by our perimeter. That's not Amile missing... I mean the lack of ability to,stop the initial dribble penetration. Even the BC guard went off on us. Painful to watch. Maybe just back up half a foot at the point of attack when on D? To discourage the opponent driving and encourage long Js. Seems to me this would be an opponent to,try that

I'll believe we win when I see it. They beat UK, they are for real

[sagegrouse]

I'd like to see Grayson initiate the offense better than he did against FSU.
I'll give credit to FSU defense as that's the first time we've seen that all year.

I would like Grayson to remember that he's an All-American and should score twenty points a game, in addition to six-to-eight assists. This "selflessness" is hurting the team.

[Kedsy]

Will we be man2man around 25 feet from the basket? GoDuke!

That, I don't know. I think we'll mix in some zone, but Troublemaker has been fairly persuasive the other way. Hard to say for sure on that front. But I am sure we won't be playing the packline.

[slower]

I don't think we can re-create 2015 by surprising Louisville with a zone. We should play man because the Cardinals are a team we should be able to defend in man.

Until Amile is back out there at full speed, I'm not making any assumptions about the ability of our defense to stop anybody.

[Troublemaker]

That, I don't know. I think we'll mix in some zone, but Troublemaker has been fairly persuasive the other way. Hard to say for sure on that front. But I am sure we won't be playing the packline.

Ha! I'm flattered because I've not even yet tried to be persuasive. If I were going to make an expanded case against zone, it would go something like this:

1. Repetitions. We need them. In 2015, the freshmen were healthy and had played every game, every exhibition, and didn't miss a month of practice healing. Heading into Louisville, they had 16 games under their belt, and they had played very good m2m defense in most of them (which people forget) against opponents like Wisconsin, Michigan St, and UConn. Harry has only played 6 games; Jayson/Marques 9 games, and they have also missed practice when they were out. Let's continue getting m2m repetitions in, no? (Note: I'd have no issue with throwing in a zone for a few possessions as a curveball maneuver.)

2. Opportunity. Louisville has a mediocre offense that doesn't spread you out, i.e. they play two non-shooting bigs together. This is an opportunity for Duke to play well in m2m and gain confidence. Neither Harry nor Marques has experienced playing m2m well against a good opponent; Jayson at least has the Florida game under his belt.

3. Poor Game Theory.
a. Actually, this probably has nothing to do with game theory, but I'm somewhat amused when people use terms they're not that familiar with.
b. You know who else has noticed some similarities between the 2015 team heading into Louisville and the 2017 team heading into Louisville, besides internet message board posters? Rick Pitino. He's going to be prepared for and expecting Duke to play zone, is he not? Especially since Duke has occasionally played zone over the past two years ever since the 2015 game.
c. If Louisville's greatest offensive strength is offensive rebounding, why are we playing zone when they will be prepared for it?
d. There's the sad "45-yr-old in the nightclub" aspect to this. 2015 was great and should be cherished forever. Cherished, not awkwardly re-created. (Come to DBR for hard-hitting basketball analysis, folks!)

[DukieInBrasil]

Ha! I'm flattered....there's the sad "45-yr-old in the nightclub" aspect to this. 2015 was great and should be cherished forever. Cherished, not awkwardly re-created.

sounds like you're speaking from experience... ;-)

[flyingdutchdevil]

So pretty much just play UVA basketball and you'll win?

Gimme UVa defense over Duke defense any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I'll take Duke offense though...

[NSDukeFan]

Gimme UVa defense over Duke defense any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I'll take Duke offense though...

Except for a 10 minute stretch against Syracuse and Malachi Richardson?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Except for a 10 minute stretch against Syracuse and Malachi Richardson?

Or when Grayson has the ball with 10 sec left? :)

[ChillinDuke]

They want you to help off of those bigs. Their best offense is to draw your bigs away from their men, throw up an awful shot, and leave their big guys in good position for an offensive rebound and an easy stickback. If you want to play man and succeed, you've got to be able to stop penetration off the bounce, and if help is needed, it needs to get there before they get into/near the paint. Don't let them reach the lane off the dribble or you're toast. Their offensive efficiency is 47th, and probably 90% of that is due to a VERY good OR% and easy buckets they get from turnovers and in transition.

You only have to do 3 things to win:
1) Make them play a halfcourt game. Be patient offensively, don't turn it over, & GET BACK on defense
2) Keep them out of the paint and make them shoot jumpers
3) Keep them off the offensive glass

You do all three, and you win going away. Probably by double digits.

Oh, is that all?

- Chillin

[rasputin]

Oh, is that all?

- Chillin

And, if you hit greens in regulation and sink a bunch of 25-footers, you'll score well.

[NM Duke Fan]

It seems to me a big key here is just how much Giles and Bolden learned from the difficulties of the last game, what kind of progress has been made this week using film study and practice, and how much can they apply said lessons towards the Saturday very tough matchup. Also hope to see Chase once again have a good game, but with a few more made shots to keep building his offensive confidence. Hopefully the guards can find him in his limited sweet spot and help him gain some momentum, but within the flow of the game. Win or lose, this needs to be another step forward for team defense, especially in the paint.

[jv001]

You do realize Duke didn't do that against FSU, right? (At least not during the competitive portions. We may have extended when down big.)

There are like 3 copies of the game on youtube if you want to check for yourself.

The problem with the defense against the Noles was NOT that Duke pressured the ball far from the basket.

Actually, the team that DID extend their defense and was super aggressive in the passing lanes was FSU. They had easily the more aggressive of the two defenses.

People do realize that, right?

I told you that you know more about college basketball than I do. :cool: Maybe it just seemed like we were guarding FSU that far out. I guess the biggest problem on defense was defending the screen/pick in roll. That's where the freshmen did a poor job. We didn't help our defense with the way our offense was operating. Some poor shot selections, turnovers and lack of offensive rebounding. And yes I realize FSU was the team defending in a superior manner. Those guys can really move their feet and they are long and athletic. GoDuke!

[BandAlum83]

I would like Grayson to remember that he's an All-American and should score twenty points a game, in addition to six-to-eight assists. This "selflessness" is hurting the team.

Thank for for this. I've been thinking the same thing. With the entire team, actually. Kennard seems to be passing up shots at times for the dish. Even Tatum - he had a couple of errant passes last game when I thought he should have taken the shot.

They are still learning to play together, but it seems at times they want to get Giles or Bolden or someone else involved. Kennard definitely seems to be consciously taking a back seat since the Freshmen have started playing. I don't know if its a conscious effort looking at the long game, or a desire to not appear selfish, but I'd love to see the hot hand take over in a game.

And Grayson definitely needs to finish some of those drives instead of passing to keep the defense needing to guard against both.

[BandAlum83]

So has anyone heard anything with regard to Amile's "evaluation" on Wednesday?

Wasn't that when they would determine at least if is officially out for Louisville?

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

And heaven forbid he "waves his private parts at their aunties."

:rolleyes:
a la Makhtar N'diaye! 'memba him?!
Love, Ima

[Kedsy]

Kennard definitely seems to be consciously taking a back seat since the Freshmen have started playing.

I'm not sure this is really true. It is true that Luke didn't take a lot of shots against Georgia Tech or BC, but I don't think two games is not enough for a trend. Also, Luke only averaged 27 mpg in those two games, while he averaged 36.3 mpg in the other 15 games.

If we look at longer-term averages, in the 8 games before Jayson Tatum played, Luke took 13.0 shots per game. In the 9 games that Jayson has played in, Luke took 13.1 shots per game. In the 11 games before Harry played, Luke took 13.5 shots per game. In the 6 games that Harry has played in, Luke took 12.3 shots per game, which is slightly less but the difference can probably be entirely explained by the dip in minutes played in the GT and BC games (i.e., if he'd played his minute average in those two games and maintained his shot per minute average, his overall shots per game in the six-game period would have been 13.3, almost exactly what he'd done in the previous 11 games). So, at least based on shots taken, it doesn't look like Luke has actually taken a backseat at all.

[BandAlum83]

I'm not sure this is really true. It is true that Luke didn't take a lot of shots against Georgia Tech or BC, but I don't think two games is not enough for a trend. Also, Luke only averaged 27 mpg in those two games, while he averaged 36.3 mpg in the other 15 games.

If we look at longer-term averages, in the 8 games before Jayson Tatum played, Luke took 13.0 shots per game. In the 9 games that Jayson has played in, Luke took 13.1 shots per game. In the 11 games before Harry played, Luke took 13.5 shots per game. In the 6 games that Harry has played in, Luke took 12.3 shots per game, which is slightly less but the difference can probably be entirely explained by the dip in minutes played in the GT and BC games (i.e., if he'd played his minute average in those two games and maintained his shot per minute average, his overall shots per game in the 6-game period would have been 13.3, almost exactly what he'd done in the previous 11 games). So, at least based on shots taken, it doesn't look like Luke has actually taken a backseat at all.

I hear you and understand. I am going by the eye test. His shots now seem of a different quality. Maybe deeper into the clock and not ideal. Or like second option shots.

I don't know, I really cant explain it. It just looks and feels different.

[kAzE]

I hear you and understand. I am going by the eye test. His shots now seem of a different quality. Maybe deeper into the clock and not ideal. Or like second option shots.

I don't know, I really cant explain it. It just looks and feels different.

My best guess for why it "feels" different in the past 4-5 games:

1. Grayson's new role as a pass first guard. He's now being played almost exclusively on the ball, which naturally will take the ball out of Luke's hands, at least to begin possessions.

2. Amile is out. Amile is a guy you can dump the ball to in the post, and he can swing it to the opposite corner or get the ball to someone making a cut. I remember reading this somewhere, but the Amile/Luke dribble hand off was basically our #1 most effective offensive play in the non-conference schedule. Without Amile, this obviously no longer exists.

3. Jayson Tatum is a ball stopper. Hard to put it any other way. I don't mean it 100% as a bad thing. There's a reason for this . . . it's because he's absolutely magnificent going 1 on 1, and can score on anyone because of his quickness, size, length, and skill. However, he's not looking to swing the ball to open shooters like Luke. A lot of open catch and shoot opportunities come off of quick passes around the perimeter, and most of the time when Jayson gets the ball, he's looking to score, sometimes even when there's a wide open guy in the corner.

Luke is surely our best scorer, at least until Jayson can prove to be more efficient. I hope he continues to get the most shots of anyone on the team, because he's the most efficient player, and he should take the most shots. Unfortunately, the way he's getting those shots has changed drastically from game to game because our roster is constantly in flux. We really need everyone to get healthy.

[gofurman]

Ha! I'm flattered because I've not even yet tried to be persuasive. If I were going to make an expanded case against zone, it would go something like this:

1. Repetitions. We need them. In 2015, the freshmen were healthy and had played every game, every exhibition, and didn't miss a month of practice healing. Heading into Louisville, they had 16 games under their belt, and they had played very good m2m defense in most of them (which people forget) against opponents like Wisconsin, Michigan St, and UConn. Harry has only played 6 games; Jayson/Marques 9 games, and they have also missed practice when they were out. Let's continue getting m2m repetitions in, no? (Note: I'd have no issue with throwing in a zone for a few possessions as a curveball maneuver.)

2. Opportunity. Louisville has a mediocre offense that doesn't spread you out, i.e. they play two non-shooting bigs together. This is an opportunity for Duke to play well in m2m and gain confidence. Neither Harry nor Marques has experienced playing m2m well against a good opponent; Jayson at least has the Florida game under his belt.

3. Poor Game Theory.
a. Actually, this probably has nothing to do with game theory, but I'm somewhat amused when people use terms they're not that familiar with.
b. You know who else has noticed some similarities between the 2015 team heading into Louisville and the 2017 team heading into Louisville, besides internet message board posters? Rick Pitino. He's going to be prepared for and expecting Duke to play zone, is he not? Especially since Duke has occasionally played zone over the past two years ever since the 2015 game.
c. If Louisville's greatest offensive strength is offensive rebounding, why are we playing zone when they will be prepared for it?
d. There's the sad "45-yr-old in the nightclub" aspect to this. 2015 was great and should be cherished forever. Cherished, not awkwardly re-created. (Come to DBR for hard-hitting basketball analysis, folks!)

Per point two do we know Louisville doesn't spread you out when they are in O? I realize they have two bigs but that doesn't mean the three remaining players can't spread the perimeter and drive does it? ? They could still drive for pull up 5 footers if not all the way to the tin. Right ?

[Troublemaker]

Per point two do we know Louisville doesn't spread you out when they are in O? I realize they have two bigs but that doesn't mean the three remaining players can't spread the perimeter and drive does it? ? They could still drive for pull up 5 footers if not all the way to the tin. Right ?

When people say a team "spreads you out" in basketball, it refers to a team having 4 (or 5) shooters on the court. One of the major distinctions in basketball is between a team that plays 4 shooters (i.e. they have a stretch power forward) and a team that plays 3 shooters (i.e. two traditional bigs). Because Louisville plays two traditional bigs who can't shoot, Duke will more frequently have help defenders around the rim because they don't have to position themselves to cover a stretch-4 out to the 3-pt line.

Yes, Louisville will still attack us with drives, but their drivers should more frequently encounter Duke defenders at the basket.

[Troublemaker]

We're about to play the #1-ranked defense in the country on their homecourt, and yet 90% of the concern around here is about Duke's defense. Pitino will often play a matchup zone but he can also play pressure defense (both fullcourt and halfcourt), and after looking at the FSU film and how Duke's offense wilted against FSU's pressure, he might very well choose to just play pressure man. First, what that looks like below, and a high-res version here (https://gfycat.com/MemorableTidyBlackbear). FSU is pressuring out past halfcourt and is denying any kind of entry pass; "You don't get to run your precious Horns set, Dukies."

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MemorableTidyBlackbear-size_restricted.gif


And you really can't run any offensive sets against this type of hyper-aggressive pressure. Your perimeter players have to be able to drive that pressure and make plays -- layups, dropoffs to big men, or kickouts for open threes. Here, Grayson was able to drive and dump to Harry for a nice, short jumper. But this happened far too infrequently, and Duke had 16 turnovers. High-res version (https://gfycat.com/IdioticGiganticCrane). Hopefully Duke has more success against Louisville's pressure.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IdioticGiganticCrane-size_restricted.gif

Incidentally, I think some Duke fans believe Duke plays defense hyper-aggressively like FSU above all the time. But I can't recall us doing this against any power conference team yet this season. We have only extended pressure against the lower-level teams like Tenn St so far.

[Troublemaker]

We can obsess about our defense, but it's moot if the offense turns it over. Louisville will just run out on turnovers. High-res (https://gfycat.com/FatalNiceFowl).

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FatalNiceFowl-size_restricted.gif


Nobody was immune to poor decision-making on offense against FSU. I think Jayson's decision-making stood out to everyone, so I'm using this post to show a few of Luke's mistakes even though he overall had a pretty good game. Luke needs to drop this off to Chase instead of trying to go through FSU's rim protectors. High-res (https://gfycat.com/MeanPleasantHornedtoad).

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MeanPleasantHornedtoad-size_restricted.gif


Grayson makes a nice kickout pass to Luke, who MUST swing it to a wide-open Jayson in the corner here. High-res (https://gfycat.com/GlaringThreadbareFlicker). It's possible the refs missed the FSU defender swiping at the ball from behind, but the original sin here was not making the extra pass.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GlaringThreadbareFlicker-size_restricted.gif

Plays are there to be made against pressure defense. But your decision-making has to be sharp.

[Spanarkel]

We can obsess about our defense, but it's moot if the offense turns it over. Louisville will just run out on turnovers. High-res (https://gfycat.com/FatalNiceFowl).

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FatalNiceFowl-size_restricted.gif


Nobody was immune to poor decision-making on offense against FSU. I think Jayson's decision-making stood out to everyone, so I'm using this post to show a few of Luke's mistakes even though he overall had a pretty good game. Luke needs to drop this off to Chase instead of trying to go through FSU's rim protectors. High-res (https://gfycat.com/MeanPleasantHornedtoad).

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MeanPleasantHornedtoad-size_restricted.gif


Grayson makes a nice kickout pass to Luke, who MUST swing it to a wide-open Jayson in the corner here. High-res (https://gfycat.com/GlaringThreadbareFlicker). It's possible the refs missed the FSU defender swiping at the ball from behind, but the original sin here was not making the extra pass.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GlaringThreadbareFlicker-size_restricted.gif

Plays are there to be made against pressure defense. But your decision-making has to be sharp.



Totally agree but neither Luke nor the other players currently seems to have confidence in Chase's ability to finish. Earlier in the season Chase demonstrated some nice quick moves(catch and dunk/jump hooks using the board)down low in the paint that have a high chance of success.

[CDu]

Totally agree but neither Luke nor the other players currently seems to have confidence in Chase's ability to finish. Earlier in the season Chase demonstrated some nice quick moves(catch and dunk/jump hooks using the board)down low in the paint that have a high chance of success.

Worth noting that later in the game Kennard DID drop the ball off to Jeter on a drive. Jeter saw a defender, panicked, picked up his dribble, and earned a 3-second violation. Jeter seems to have confidence issues on offense. I suspect the other players realize this.

[English]

Worth noting that later in the game Kennard DID drop the ball off to Jeter on a drive. Jeter saw a defender, panicked, picked up his dribble, and earned a 3-second violation. Jeter seems to have confidence issues on offense. I suspect the other players realize this.

This play was arguments 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 for why the players weren't interested in dumping the ball down to Chase Jeter on the offensive end. Chase was a plus-defender against FSU, but we were playing 4-on-5 out there on offense because of him. It was brutal to watch in real-time. He clearly has confidence issues on offense at this point.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Totally agree but neither Luke nor the other players currently seems to have confidence in Chase's ability to finish. Earlier in the season Chase demonstrated some nice quick moves(catch and dunk/jump hooks using the board)down low in the paint that have a high chance of success.

I don't think anyone - including Chase Jeter - has confidence in Chase Jeter's offense.

[Troublemaker]

Totally agree but neither Luke nor the other players currently seems to have confidence in Chase's ability to finish. Earlier in the season Chase demonstrated some nice quick moves(catch and dunk/jump hooks using the board)down low in the paint that have a high chance of success.


Worth noting that later in the game Kennard DID drop the ball off to Jeter on a drive. Jeter saw a defender, panicked, picked up his dribble, and earned a 3-second violation. Jeter seems to have confidence issues on offense. I suspect the other players realize this.


This play was arguments 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 for why the players weren't interested in dumping the ball down to Chase Jeter on the offensive end. Chase was a plus-defender against FSU, but we were playing 4-on-5 out there on offense because of him. It was brutal to watch in real-time. He clearly has confidence issues on offense at this point.

I agree that lack of confidence in Chase may have played a role, but I still think you make the pass. If Luke gets the FSU big to commit before dropping it off, we're talking about a dunk attempt for Chase, which is a bit different from that 3-second play mentioned. Although, agreed, that was bad. Chase should've taken a jump-hook or any kind of shot before the 3 seconds were up.

[UrinalCake]

I posted this on the Vigil thread but a handful of sources have confirmed that Amile is out for Saturday's game. I'm expecting a loss but would like for us to at least compete for 40 minutes and show improvement rather than getting run off the court again.

[Doria]

I agree that lack of confidence in Chase may have played a role, but I still think you make the pass. If Luke gets the FSU big to commit before dropping it off, we're talking about a dunk attempt for Chase, which is a bit different from that 3-second play mentioned. Although, agreed, that was bad. Chase should've taken a jump-hook or any kind of shot before the 3 seconds were up.

I agree with your, uh, agreement... Chase won't ever develop the confidence without the opportunity. Plus, it's just a good habit to be passing to the guy who has the best chance of scoring (or setting up the score). Now, if you have the best chance to score, you need to take the shot...

[NSDukeFan]

I agree that lack of confidence in Chase may have played a role, but I still think you make the pass. If Luke gets the FSU big to commit before dropping it off, we're talking about a dunk attempt for Chase, which is a bit different from that 3-second play mentioned. Although, agreed, that was bad. Chase should've taken a jump-hook or any kind of shot before the 3 seconds were up.

I'm glad you showed those clips of Luke not always making the right decision as I don't think I would have believed it without video evidence. He just seems to always be in such great control. Where's gumbomoop (his first biggest fam in this board) to gush about how great he is? That was a great call.
I think we should wait at least a couple games before we make a final judgement on what Chase will give the team offensively. He had some indecisive moments, but that was his first game this year (2017) against a tough defensive team on the road. I expect he will also contribute offensively.

[CDu]

I agree that lack of confidence in Chase may have played a role, but I still think you make the pass. If Luke gets the FSU big to commit before dropping it off, we're talking about a dunk attempt for Chase, which is a bit different from that 3-second play mentioned. Although, agreed, that was bad. Chase should've taken a jump-hook or any kind of shot before the 3 seconds were up.

Ideally yes. But homestly, I trust Kennard to make that contested shot more than I trust Jeter to catch and finish against what would have wound up being a slightly contested shot by the time he got there.

And given what is likely a lack of trust there, I can see why Kennard chose to shoot. It isn't clear that whether Jeter would indeed get an uncontested layup. And given that uncertainty, I can understand him shooting.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Ideally yes. But homestly, I trust Kennard to make that contested shot more than I trust Jeter to catch and finish against what would have wound up being a slightly contested shot by the time he got there.

And given what is likely a lack of trust there, I can see why Kennard chose to shoot. It isn't clear that whether Jeter would indeed get an uncontested layup. And given that uncertainty, I can understand him shooting.

I have to agree with this sentiment. Luke isn't perfect, but I can't blame him for that play. Also, if I am to blame someone for something, it wouldn't be Luke for one play (or two plays. Or three plays).

I've said it once and I'll say it plenty more times: Luke is one of the few bright spots this season. He gets plenty of passes in my book.

[Troublemaker]

I have to agree with this sentiment. Luke isn't perfect, but I can't blame him for that play. Also, if I am to blame someone for something, it wouldn't be Luke for one play (or two plays. Or three plays).

I've said it once and I'll say it plenty more times: Luke is one of the few bright spots this season. He gets plenty of passes in my book.

OBVIOUSLY, I'm not blaming Luke for the game. I'm showing examples of poor offensive decision-making, and I specifically chose an unlikely source because that's more interesting than showing it from someone everybody recognized made mistakes. I don't have time to turn every single offensive mistake into a GIF, so I think that's a nice compromise. And I rely on the intelligence of the readers to understand that context, especially when I explicitly explained the context.

And I am probably Luke's #2 fan on the board (behind gumbomoop) if you've read my posts over the past couple of seasons.

[flyingdutchdevil]

OBVIOUSLY, I'm not blaming Luke for the game. I'm showing examples of poor offensive decision-making, and I specifically chose an unlikely source because that's more interesting than showing it from someone everybody recognized made mistakes. I don't have time to turn every single offensive mistake into a GIF, so I think that's a nice compromise. And I rely on the intelligence of the readers to understand that context, especially when I explicitly explained the context.

And I am probably Luke's #2 fan on the board (behind gumbomoop) if you've read my posts over the past couple of seasons.

The blame comment had nothing to do with you, and I probably used the wrong term with blame. The intention behind my post was that, yeah, Luke made mistakes but I don't care. He can continue to make those mistakes because, IMO, they aren't that catastrophic. Our transition D and penetration defense, OTOH, now THAT'S a big deal.

[kAzE]

And I am probably Luke's #2 fan on the board (behind gumbomoop) if you've read my posts over the past couple of seasons.

Hey now, I was on the Luke bandwagon from the first game he played in a Duke uniform, even though Kedsy and others refused to believe he was a good shooter all last year ;)

[Spanarkel]

I posted this on the Vigil thread but a handful of sources have confirmed that Amile is out for Saturday's game. I'm expecting a loss but would like for us to at least compete for 40 minutes and show improvement rather than getting run off the court again.


FWIW, the website donbest.com(looks reliable) is reporting that UL Center Matz Stockman suffered a recent concussion and is questionable for tomorrow's game. He only plays 5mpg but that's 5 less fouls for their bigs since I'm sure the game will be called with the freedom of movement rules as a priority:rolleyes:. Just hope Teddy V. doesn't show up(again)to work tomorrow's game.

[Troublemaker]

The blame comment had nothing to do with you, and I probably used the wrong term with blame. The intention behind my post was that, yeah, Luke made mistakes but I don't care. He can continue to make those mistakes because, IMO, they aren't that catastrophic. Our transition D and penetration defense, OTOH, now THAT'S a big deal.

Okay, we're cool, then. :)


Hey now, I was on the Luke bandwagon from the first game he played in a Duke uniform, even though Kedsy and others refused to believe he was a good shooter all last year ;)

I considered you in the rankings, believe it or not. I think we all fell in love with the youtube clips.

[mgtr]

So, with Amile out, which big will step up to help handle the middle? I would guess Jeter, Giles, Bolden in that order. While Jeter has been reluctant to attempt much offense, it can't hurt for him to try. Giles obviously has the talent, but may not have the desire yet. Other thoughts?

[Bob Green]

Giles obviously has the talent, but may not have the desire yet. Other thoughts?

It does not appear to be a lack of desire. Giles appears to be a step slow so he has trouble achieving defensive position with his feet and ends up grabbing or pushing. The grabbing and pulling results in a couple of fouls and off Giles goes to the bench. Giles has tremendous low post offensive skills but it is difficult to take advantage of those skills when sitting on the bench in foul trouble.

[English]

So, with Amile out, which big will step up to help handle the middle? I would guess Jeter, Giles, Bolden in that order. While Jeter has been reluctant to attempt much offense, it can't hurt for him to try. Giles obviously has the talent, but may not have the desire yet. Other thoughts?

Re: Jeter, not only can't it hurt him to try some offense, I think he NEEDS to try finding his offense when given the clear opportunity. He whiffed on a couple of offenses gimmes or near-gimmes against FSU--perhaps because their interior defense was stout and blocked our more offensive-minded players, or because he's just rusty after not having played much lately. Either way, to keep UL's interior defense honest, with rotations and post defense, Jeter needs to be at least a facade of threat on that end.

[CDu]

So, with Amile out, which big will step up to help handle the middle? I would guess Jeter, Giles, Bolden in that order. While Jeter has been reluctant to attempt much offense, it can't hurt for him to try. Giles obviously has the talent, but may not have the desire yet. Other thoughts?

Freshmen are often slow to recognize what to do defensively. The speed of the game, the quality of the players, and the organization of the teams are far above that of high school players. Combine that with missing a TON of playing time over the past two years, including missing a bunch of practice and games at Duke, and you have a recipe for a guy not getting to the right spots.

Hopefully Giles (and Tatum, Jackson, and Bolden) get things figured out quickly.

[WVDUKEFAN]

I think Giles is more comfortable at the 4 instead of the 5. Offensively, he can play the 5, but defensively, it's a little more challenging- at least it was against that monster from Florida State. That guy was a load.

[CDu]

I think Giles is more comfortable at the 4 instead of the 5. Offensively, he can play the 5, but defensively, it's a little more challenging- at least it was against that monster from Florida State. That guy was a load.

Giles is seems actually much less suited to defend college 4s. He seems to struggle when asked to defend away from the basket, which is where most college 4s play. He just doesn't have a comfort zone away from the basket. He is a college 5.

And I am not sure what you are talking about with regards to "that monster from Florida State." I assume you mean Ojo, but Ojo didn't get a single look in the post in that game. He scored his baskets all on drives by guards: one offensive rebound of a driving layup by (I think) Rathan-Mayes in which Giles had to play help defense off Ojo; three alley-oops off drives in which the center (sometimes Giles, sometimes Jeter) had to leave Ojo to help against the drive.

FSU had, MAYBE, one post basket by a center. And that basket would have come from their 6'9", 225lb small center (Smith).

[WVDUKEFAN]

I'm sure you are correct. Any thoughts on what we could do to stop the back door cuts? It seems they got behind us quite a bit.

[CDu]

I'm sure you are correct. Any thoughts on what we could do to stop the back door cuts? It seems they got behind us quite a bit.

Guards just have to be more aware. Can't get stuck ball-watching and lose your assignment.

But the biggest problem in the FSU game was we were atrocious in handling high ball screens. That comes down to awareness and communication. And that probably falls mostly (though not exclusively) on the freshmen.

[Saratoga2]

Re: Jeter, not only can't it hurt him to try some offense, I think he NEEDS to try finding his offense when given the clear opportunity. He whiffed on a couple of offenses gimmes or near-gimmes against FSU--perhaps because their interior defense was stout and blocked our more offensive-minded players, or because he's just rusty after not having played much lately. Either way, to keep UL's interior defense honest, with rotations and post defense, Jeter needs to be at least a facade of threat on that end.

Jeter seems to lack the confidence and perhaps aggressiveness to be an offensive force. He also is not very good at establishing rebounding position. The kid seems athletic and tries very hard so maybe he will just be a late bloomer. Meanwhile, Harry has a lot of offensive talent but does need to stop reaching in and learn to move his feet. He is our best chance for post offense with Amile on the bench. It is asking a lot of Tatum to take on the role of post scorer against teams with athletic big men.

[DukieInBrasil]

Jeter seems to lack the confidence and perhaps aggressiveness to be an offensive force. He also is not very good at establishing rebounding position. The kid seems athletic and tries very hard so maybe he will just be a late bloomer. Meanwhile, Harry has a lot of offensive talent but does need to stop reaching in and learn to move his feet. He is our best chance for post offense with Amile on the bench. It is asking a lot of Tatum to take on the role of post scorer against teams with athletic big men.

I remember distinctly that twice a defensive rebound landed on the ground near Jeter or at the waist for a FSU player next to Jeter. I didn't watch the whole 2nd half, just parts, so he may have missed more. I agree, he doesn't establish good rebounding position, which explains why his reb/40 is so low.

[AFL]

It's amazing to me that Jeter seems to be ahead of Bolden in the rotation. Bolden is projected to be a first round NBA draft pick this year, but can't seem to get off the bench. Unbelievable!

[DameionNatale]

This was probably the game that turned us around and gave us the confidence to win on the road and the motivation to play together and get that Championship. Although that year we were healthy and playing under the radar. This time around we couldnt be under more pressure and struggling more with injuries and being scrutinized by every move G does. If and when we pull this out tommorrow I believe it will give this team the same fight amd motivation to get another banner. What a story line that would be. GO DUKE

[gofurman]

This play was arguments 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 for why the players weren't interested in dumping the ball down to Chase Jeter on the offensive end. Chase was a plus-defender against FSU, but we were playing 4-on-5 out there on offense because of him. It was brutal to watch in real-time. He clearly has confidence issues on offense at this point.

Agreed. You can't play 4 on 5. ESP if Grayson is distributing and scoring less. Capel needs to tell Jeter it's ok to get blocked or make mistakes. Just go up and try to dunk. It's ok if it doesnt work You can't be a COMPLETE non entity on O. Lance Thomas was like this for his first years (good D NO O) and it hurt until he got a little O to go w some Great D. You need to offer at least a lil ' threat. At least dish offs and put backs from two feet. Otherwise we are plying four on five.

But D is really our problem. Not O. If we had a top ten D we would be fine. So I get the Jeter playing time. He is our best defender at the 5 after Amile. Of course if Harry or Bolden are to develop you have to let them play some...

Kenpom currently has us w the number 7 O and Nbr 32 D. But I THINK that's a running average. Meaning we are probably now - without Amile - the 25th O and 70th D I bet. I feel sure Amile is that important to our D. Even our running average of the 32nd ranked D is the worst of the top ten teams just behind unc

[Bob Green]

It's amazing to me that Jeter seems to be ahead of Bolden in the rotation. Bolden is projected to be a first round NBA draft pick this year, but can't seem to get off the bench. Unbelievable!

There is speculation in various places on the information super highway which imply Bolden is still not 100% healthy and has been limited in practice. Players need to practice (Allen Iverson excepted); freshmen players really, really need to practice.

[arnie]

There is speculation in various places on the information super highway which imply Bolden is still not 100% healthy and has been limited in practice. Players need to practice (Allen Iverson excepted); freshmen players really, really need to practice.

If that's the case, wonder why a Duke coach can't allude to that during press conferences, etc? I'm not suggesting "make a big deal over it", but simply drop a comment regarding who's practicing and who isn't.

I'll get ripped for this, but, fans do play a big part of college bball economics. Without us, don't think the AD all the way down to assistant coaches would make $$$$ they're currently earning. IMO, reasonable level of info regarding player's health should be more forthcoming.

[Indoor66]

If that's the case, wonder why a Duke coach can't allude to that during press conferences, etc? I'm not suggesting "make a big deal over it", but simply drop a comment regarding who's practicing and who isn't.

I'll get ripped for this, but, fans do play a big part of college bball economics. Without us, don't think the AD all the way down to assistant coaches would make $$$$ they're currently earning. IMO, reasonable level of info regarding player's health should be more forthcoming.

Consider yourself ripped as a self-absorbed, feeling entitled fan. :D

[lotusland]

Guards just have to be more aware. Can't get stuck ball-watching and lose your assignment.

But the biggest problem in the FSU game was we were atrocious in handling high ball screens. That comes down to awareness and communication. And that probably falls mostly (though not exclusively) on the freshmen.

Would love to see our guard just sag and go under screens against this team. Just let their guards step back and shoot and go rebound the ball. I think Duke will probably defend the 3 point line aggressively tho and there's good logic in doing so but those layups hurt my eyes...

[arnie]

Consider yourself ripped as a self-absorbed, feeling entitled fan. :D

I needed that and will now crawl back under my rock😎

[jv001]

There is speculation in various places on the information super highway which imply Bolden is still not 100% healthy and has been limited in practice. Players need to practice (Allen Iverson excepted); freshmen players really, really need to practice.

Bob, are you talking about people close to the Duke team? If Bolden is limited in practice, that says a lot about his progress. Duke's system on defense is pretty hard for a freshmen to pick up. So, I've been told. Throw in an injury and that really sets a player back. I remember people were saying that Bolden was going to be in the starting rotation early on. I'm hoping to see a well played game on offense and defense for the entire team today. GoDuke!

[Sixthman]

Save a two point loss to Kansas, Duke won of all of its games and looked pretty good doing it, even without Tatum, Giles and Bolden, our three freshmen who have been preordained to be great college players because they have been preordained to be great NBA players. Of the three, only Tatum is playing real minutes (Giles and Bolden shared 14 minutes against FSU), and while I would stop short of yet calling him a great college player, he has proven himself to be a great talent -- an exceptional talent -- who is on the verge of being a great college player. If everyone regains health and retains health, I can imagine Tatum being obviously our best player on a team which has at least three other serious candidates for that status. I believe that Duke is a national championship contender with Tatum and the core that ran the table to begin the season save the close loss to Kansas. Indeed, I think it is conceivable that that group of players hitting on all cylinders could be a genuinely great team. So what about Giles and Bolden? They have unbelievable potential, but we have not seen it on the court in a game. Not only do they still seem out of condition (and as Bob Green mentioned above, Bolden may have some injury keeping him from practicing), they do not seem to be playing even in the October form Coach K has described the team as inhabiting. Giles in particular strikes me as really suffering from his time out of the game (missing his senior season and the beginning of this year). When on the court he is often not where he is supposed to be in the Duke scheme, but even then, his feel for the game seems off, as he is often not in the right place based upon what is going on at the time regardless of Duke's intended scheme. The solution for that is playing time -- getting some minutes and finding some success. The foregoing was my prelude to this: I don't think we can beat Louisville on the road without Amile unless almost everything else falls our way. A loss on the road is not a serious blow to our NCAA credentials. Let's not repeat the FSU game with Giles and Bolden getting 14 minutes, lets give them each 20 minutes plus and not worry that this might mean a loss. Because as good as the early season core with Tatum will be, you add Giles and Bolden playing to potential and we'll still be smiling this time next year. Let's use this game -- plus some extra practice next week -- to get those guys ready -- or not. Because if they aren't playing in January form by February, we will no longer be able to give them minutes (barring injury) and they never develop. I think we'll be great either way, but let's take a shot at special. Let's risk a step back today in exchange for the many steps forward for which we might be laying the groundwork.

[Bob Green]

Bob, are you talking about people close to the Duke team?

Nope. I don't know folks close to the Duke team.

I'm talking about anonymous Internet people. It is the old "where there is smoke, there is fire" theory.

[jv001]

Save a two point loss to Kansas, Duke won of all of its games and looked pretty good doing it, even without Tatum, Giles and Bolden, our three freshmen who have been preordained to be great college players because they have been preordained to be great NBA players. Of the three, only Tatum is playing real minutes (Giles and Bolden shared 14 minutes against FSU), and while I would stop short of yet calling him a great college player, he has proven himself to be a great talent -- an exception talent -- who is on the verge of being a great college player. If everyone regains health and retains health, I can imagine Tatum being obviously our best player on a team which has at least three other serious candidates for that status. I believe that Duke is a national championship contender with Tatum and the core that ran the table to begin the season save the close loss to Kansas. Indeed, I think it is conceivable that that group of players hitting on all cylinders could be a genuinely great team. So what about Giles and Bolden? They have unbelievable potential, but we have not seen it on the court in a game. Not only do they still seem out of condition (and as Bob Green mentioned above, Bolden may have some injury keeping him from practicing), they do not seem to be playing even in the October form Coach K has described the team as inhabiting. Giles in particular strikes me as really suffering from his time out of the game (missing his senior season and the beginning of this year). When on the court he is often not where he is supposed to be in the Duke scheme, but even then, his feel for the game seems off, as he is often not in the right place based upon what is going on at the time regardless of Duke's intended scheme. The solution for that is playing time -- getting some minutes and finding some success. The foregoing was my prelude to this: I don't think we can beat Louisville on the road without Amile unless almost everything else falls our way. A loss on the road is not a serious blow to our NCAA credentials. Let's not repeat the FSU game with Giles and Bolden getting 14 minutes, lets give them each 20 minutes plus and not worry that this might mean a loss. Because as good as the early season core with Tatum will be, you add Giles and Bolden playing to potential and we'll still be smiling this time next year. Let's use this game -- plus some extra practice next week -- to get those guys ready -- or not. Because if they aren't playing in January form by February, we will no longer be able to give them minutes (barring injury) and they never develop. I think we'll be great either way, but let's take a shot at special. Let's risk a step back today in exchange for the many steps forward for which we might be laying the groundwork.

I have a good friend that goes to my church and he told me not too long ago that his grandson played against Harry when they both were younger. He said Harry held back playing hard until the end of the game, often just jogged up court while guys ran past him getting back on defense. He also said that in end of game situations, he changed into a different player and took over. If Harry had that mind set when he arrived at Duke, that is something else that was new to him. Some habits are hard to break. I have not noticed Harry loafing on the court. I have noticed him not getting back on defense, but I think that's just in-experience. Since I never saw Harry play high school basketball, I don't know if that description of him is truly accurate. GoDuke!

[duketaylor]

This was probably the game that turned us around and gave us the confidence to win on the road and the motivation to play together and get that Championship. Although that year we were healthy and playing under the radar. This time around we couldnt be under more pressure and struggling more with injuries and being scrutinized by every move G does. If and when we pull this out tommorrow I believe it will give this team the same fight amd motivation to get another banner. What a story line that would be. GO DUKE

I vividly remember that game and was thinking similar thoughts. I expected to lose at Louisville in '15 and we came out and crushed them. Would be shocked if that happens today, just want a win.

GO DUKE!!!

[Troublemaker]

This was probably the game that turned us around and gave us the confidence to win on the road and the motivation to play together and get that Championship. Although that year we were healthy and playing under the radar. This time around we couldnt be under more pressure and struggling more with injuries and being scrutinized by every move G does. If and when we pull this out tommorrow I believe it will give this team the same fight amd motivation to get another banner. What a story line that would be. GO DUKE

Yep. The basketball gods may splash some "This isn't 2015" cold water in our faces today. And, of course, it's not. We've been an injury-ravaged team that's trying to find some chemistry on BOTH offense and defense while STILL having a key player out with injury. Not to mention the head coach, who is recovering from surgery -- wow, a truly ridiculous season so far in health, once you stop and think.

That's nothing like 2015. It's its own thing. We will probably continue taking our lumps today at Louisville. I just continue to hope that by the end of this month and certainly by March, I'll be able to read and laugh at the postgame threads for FSU and Louisville. Especially Louisville. OMG, it's going to be horrible today in the postgame thread.

[jv001]

Yep. The basketball gods may splash some "This isn't 2015" cold water in our faces today. And, of course, it's not. We've been an injury-ravaged team that's trying to find some chemistry on BOTH offense and defense while STILL having a key player out with injury. Not to mention the head coach, who is recovering from surgery -- wow, a truly ridiculous season so far in health, once you stop and think.

That's nothing like 2015. It's its own thing. We will probably continue taking our lumps today at Louisville. I just continue to hope that by the end of this month and certainly by March, I'll be able to read and laugh at the postgame threads for FSU and Louisville. Especially Louisville. OMG, it's going to be horrible today in the postgame thread.

I will hold out hope for this team until the last game has been played. We just have too much talent for this season to be failure. All we need is good health and for the freshmen to finally "get it". I think it all starts with communication on defense. If we can get stops it will spark our offense. With some good wins I'm hoping everyone will begin to have fun again. GoDuke!

[Spanarkel]

Giles is seems actually much less suited to defend college 4s. He seems to struggle when asked to defend away from the basket, which is where most college 4s play. He just doesn't have a comfort zone away from the basket. He is a college 5.

And I am not sure what you are talking about with regards to "that monster from Florida State." I assume you mean Ojo, but Ojo didn't get a single look in the post in that game. He scored his baskets all on drives by guards: one offensive rebound of a driving layup by (I think) Rathan-Mayes in which Giles had to play help defense off Ojo; three alley-oops off drives in which the center (sometimes Giles, sometimes Jeter) had to leave Ojo to help against the drive.FSU had, MAYBE, one post basket by a center. And that basket would have come from their 6'9", 225lb small center (Smith).



CDu, your posts are typically highly incisive and have helped me(and others, I'm sure)to see and appreciate some of the finer points of college hoops that I would have otherwise missed. For those insights I truly thank you. I don't agree, however, with your assessment of FSU's Michael Ojo. While he obviously isn't a first-team All-American, he does seem to know his role on a formidable FSH squad. I know that he plays 13.3mpg but FSU has a lot of other talented guys playing about these minutes. Ojo's per 40 averages are 15.6/12.6, not chopped liver, and he shoots 61% from the field and 75% from the line. At the 12:17 mark of the second half in the Duke game Ojo received a pass(NOT an alley-oop)from C.J. Walker deep in the paint and made a short but definitive move to the rim for a lay-up(lay-in). If you disagree that this was not a "post basket by a center" then I respectfully disagree. In the FSU-pre-game thread you mention that "Ojo is just not good," but IF one or several of our post players(not named AJ)could make this same(non-spectacular but effective) move just a few times a game it would be a definite improvement.

You probably recall Tom Abernethy of the '76 Hoosiers and Jim Boylan(sic)of the '77 Marquette Warriors: while they weren't "monsters" physically like the 7'1'/300lb Ojo, they knew their roles on their teams and while not spectacular, highlight reel players, their HOF coaches counted on them to perform their roles on a regular basis.

I'll definitely continue to read all your, and the many other fantastic posters', comments on DBR. Go Duke!

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[curtis325]

Save a two point loss to Kansas, Duke won of all of its games and looked pretty good doing it, even without Tatum, Giles and Bolden, our three freshmen who have been preordained to be great college players because they have been preordained to be great NBA players. Of the three, only Tatum is playing real minutes (Giles and Bolden shared 14 minutes against FSU), and while I would stop short of yet calling him a great college player, he has proven himself to be a great talent -- an exceptional talent -- who is on the verge of being a great college player. If everyone regains health and retains health, I can imagine Tatum being obviously our best player on a team which has at least three other serious candidates for that status. I believe that Duke is a national championship contender with Tatum and the core that ran the table to begin the season save the close loss to Kansas. Indeed, I think it is conceivable that that group of players hitting on all cylinders could be a genuinely great team. So what about Giles and Bolden? They have unbelievable potential, but we have not seen it on the court in a game. Not only do they still seem out of condition (and as Bob Green mentioned above, Bolden may have some injury keeping him from practicing), they do not seem to be playing even in the October form Coach K has described the team as inhabiting. Giles in particular strikes me as really suffering from his time out of the game (missing his senior season and the beginning of this year). When on the court he is often not where he is supposed to be in the Duke scheme, but even then, his feel for the game seems off, as he is often not in the right place based upon what is going on at the time regardless of Duke's intended scheme. The solution for that is playing time -- getting some minutes and finding some success. The foregoing was my prelude to this: I don't think we can beat Louisville on the road without Amile unless almost everything else falls our way. A loss on the road is not a serious blow to our NCAA credentials. Let's not repeat the FSU game with Giles and Bolden getting 14 minutes, lets give them each 20 minutes plus and not worry that this might mean a loss. Because as good as the early season core with Tatum will be, you add Giles and Bolden playing to potential and we'll still be smiling this time next year. Let's use this game -- plus some extra practice next week -- to get those guys ready -- or not. Because if they aren't playing in January form by February, we will no longer be able to give them minutes (barring injury) and they never develop. I think we'll be great either way, but let's take a shot at special. Let's risk a step back today in exchange for the many steps forward for which we might be laying the groundwork.


I don't mind the idea of risking a step back by giving Giles and Bolden good minutes. I guess there is also the risk that they get torched and embarrassed and it might discourage them and inhibit further growth.

If they do get torched it will be up to the coaches to ensure that positive growth obtains. I do trust that the coaches can be successful in that.

[CDu]

CDu, your posts are typically highly incisive and have helped me(and others, I'm sure)to see and appreciate some of the finer points of college hoops that I would have otherwise missed. For those insights I truly thank you. I don't agree, however, with your assessment of FSU's Michael Ojo. While he obviously isn't a first-team All-American, he does seem to know his role on a formidable FSH squad. I know that he plays 13.3mpg but FSU has a lot of other talented guys playing about these minutes. Ojo's per 40 averages are 15.6/12.6, not chopped liver, and he shoots 61% from the field and 75% from the line. At the 12:17 mark of the second half in the Duke game Ojo received a pass(NOT an alley-oop)from C.J. Walker deep in the paint and made a short but definitive move to the rim for a lay-up(lay-in). If you disagree that this was not a "post basket by a center" then I respectfully disagree. In the FSU-pre-game thread you mention that "Ojo is just not good," but IF one or several of our post players(not named AJ)could make this same(non-spectacular but effective) move just a few times a game it would be a definite improvement.

You probably recall Tom Abernethy of the '76 Hoosiers and Jim Boylan(sic)of the '77 Marquette Warriors: while they weren't "monsters" physically like the 7'1'/300lb Ojo, they knew their roles on their teams and while not spectacular, highlight reel players, their HOF coaches counted on them to perform their roles on a regular basis.

I'll definitely continue to read all your, and the many other fantastic posters', comments on DBR. Go Duke!

Appreciate the kind words. But the clip you mentioned WAS an alley-oop - just not a good one. Ojo decided not to try to complete the oop because it was slightly underthrown. Instead, he jumped, caught it at the rim, landed, and had an uncontested layup literally under the basket. The reason it was an uncontested layup? Because Walker beat drove, drew the center in help defense, and threw the alley-oop. Nothing about that was a post play.

Perhaps this is a terminology issue? For reference, a post basket is when you set up in the high- or low-post with your man on your back. You then get the ball on the block with your man behind you and your back to the basket. And you then make a move to beat your man and put it in the basket. Uncontested layups/dunks/alley-oops off passes from drivers aren't post plays. They are baskets in the paint, but not post baskets. A post basket can be (but is not always) a type of basket in the paint. But not all baskets in the paint are post baskets.

So, as I said, literally none of Ojo's baskets came on post plays. They were all baskets in the paint, but all completely or essentially uncontested. He scored on a rebound putback of a teammates' driving layup miss and three uncontested alley-oops (one of which - the one you highlighted - he had to catch and come down with because the pass was too close to the rim). As such, as I said, Ojo didn't cause Giles trouble inside at the 5. Giles' struggles were because FSU's perimeter guys took advantage of him in the pick-and-roll on the perimeter. FSU's guards us the trouble.

As far as our bigs being able to make that move, they are all quite capable of doing so. It is a pretty easy play when there is no defender to defend you. We just don't run much pick and roll, whereas that is literally all Ojo does on offense. And teams do a better job congesting the lane to prevent it.

[Indoor66]

Bilas talks too much!

[CDu]

Bilas talks too much!

And frequently says incorrect things. He has kind of become Vitale. Sad - he used to be good.

[kmspeaks]

"Giles has checked into the game early" yep the starters usually check in pretty early, most of the time when there 20 minutes left in the 1st half

[Indoor66]

Had to resort to the mute button to enjoy the game. Kind of sad.

[scottdude8]

Javin is now into the game for the second time, seemingly playing the minutes Bolden has been playing lately. That seems weird considering Javin has been injured, even though he is playing well. Is Bolden in the doghouse?

[blynch923]

Javin is now into the game for the second time, seemingly playing the minutes Bolden has been playing lately. That seems weird considering Javin has been injured, even though he is playing well. Is Bolden in the doghouse?

Was just about to ask this. I expected Bolden to be a bigger part of the team this season. We could certainly use his height and length today with Amile out.

[scottdude8]

Was just about to ask this. I expected Bolden to be a bigger part of the team this season. We could certainly use his height and length today with Amile out.

He definitely hasn't been playing well, but I gotta think for us to play a guy who's been battling injuries over Bolden there's something more going on. Still, I like Javin's minutes so far, especially his post D.

[Spanarkel]

Appreciate the kind words. But the clip you mentioned WAS an alley-oop - just not a good one. Ojo decided not to try to complete the oop because it was slightly underthrown. Instead, he jumped, caught it at the rim, landed, and had an uncontested layup literally under the basket. The reason it was an uncontested layup? Because Walker beat drove, drew the center in help defense, and threw the alley-oop. Nothing about that was a post play.

Perhaps this is a terminology issue? For reference, a post basket is when you set up in the high- or low-post with your man on your back. You then get the ball on the block with your man behind you and your back to the basket. And you then make a move to beat your man and put it in the basket. Uncontested layups/dunks/alley-oops off passes from drivers aren't post plays. They are baskets in the paint, but not post baskets. A post basket can be (but is not always) a type of basket in the paint. But not all baskets in the paint are post baskets.

So, as I said, literally none of Ojo's baskets came on post plays. They were all baskets in the paint, but all completely or essentially uncontested. He scored on a rebound putback of a teammates' driving layup miss and three uncontested alley-oops (one of which - the one you highlighted - he had to catch and come down with because the pass was too close to the rim). As such, as I said, Ojo didn't cause Giles trouble inside at the 5. Giles' struggles were because FSU's perimeter guys took advantage of him in the pick-and-roll on the perimeter. FSU's guards us the trouble.

As far as our bigs being able to make that move, they are all quite capable of doing so. It is a pretty easy play when there is no defender to defend you. We just don't run much pick and roll, whereas that is literally all Ojo does on offense. And teams do a better job congesting the lane to prevent it.


Went back and rewatched the play in question. I think it was indeed a semi-alley oop. And the terminology clarification helps. Thanks!

[Kjeffrey]

Had Capel used a TO prior to this one? Duke was up by 5-8 points but things have been slowing falling apart. Not getting back on defense, losing guys in transition and forced shots on offense. I am just wondering why there wasn't an attempt to regroup them.

[Rickshaw]

Its gonna flip. The negativity is so overwhelming , reason will out. Nah, we will see

[subzero02]

Too much 1 on 1 play.

[uh_no]

Too much 1 on 1 play.

tatum makes some horrible decisions on offense....his last two shots were 20+' 2pters....both bad shots...he bailed himself out at the end after not initiating the offense until 5s left....he knew he was taking that shot....still a horrible shot.

[arnie]

ESPN dogging Allen - claim louisville has taken Allen out of the game. I guess I wasn't watching the right game?

[fuse]

Bad outcome on the zone.
At least we are driving/ challenging at the rim instead of shying away.

When Jackson, Giles, and Jeter foul out , looks like DeLaurier will be our guy.

If we can play the second half like we played the first 15 minutes of the first, I like our chances to earn the win.

Let's Go Duke!

[Spanarkel]

tatum makes some horrible decisions on offense...his last two shots were 20+' 2pters...both bad shots...he bailed himself out at the end after not initiating the offense until 5s left...he knew he was taking that shot...still a horrible shot.

Agree that it wasn't a great decision by Tatum. I submit that "on the run" 3 point attempt by Jones as the first half's worst shot.

[AFL]

Neither Giles nor Bolden are ready to play at the collegiate level, but yet they're both projected to be first round NBA draft picks. I have seen nothing from either of them for me to buy into the hype. Bolden can't even get off the bench.

[fuse]

Agree that it wasn't a great decision by Tatum. I submit that "on the run" 3 point attempt by Jones as the first half's worst shot.

What made it the worst shot was the think twice / hesitation.
Not unique to Matt, how many times do you see a college player second guess themselves into a miss.

Taken in the flow of the game, I like the odds that Matt makes that shot.

[Doria]

ESPN dogging Allen - claim louisville has taken Allen out of the game. I guess I wasn't watching the right game?

I do think it might have something to do with his uncharacteristic misses at the free throw line. Or, you know, he might just be a little cold today.

[Kjeffrey]

tatum makes some horrible decisions on offense...his last two shots were 20+' 2pters...both bad shots...he bailed himself out at the end after not initiating the offense until 5s left...he knew he was taking that shot...still a horrible shot.

I made a similar post regarding his play in the FSU game. I question his decision making including not getting his teammates more involved. My thinking is not based on actual stats but just the eye test. Luke should be the first option but Tatum seems very focused on keeping the ball in his own hands. Tatum is VERY good but I would like him develop more team thinking.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

2 assists, 8 turnovers, 13 fouls in 1st half.

[Spanarkel]

2 assists, 8 turnovers, 13 fouls in 1st half.



Ouch! I feel that this is a winnable game at this point(if we have any players left due to foul trouble).

[arnie]

I do think it might have something to do with his uncharacteristic misses at the free throw line. Or, you know, he might just be a little cold today.

Yea he's shooting 50%, 4 of 6 from line and our leading rebounder with 6.

[Karl Beem]

Without Amile , we have no big worth a rat's patoot.

[Doria]

Yea he's shooting 50%, 4 of 6 from line and our leading rebounder with 6.

Ah, I thought he'd missed three from the line. My mistake... I'm "working," so my attention (such as it is) is divided.

[Kfanarmy]

Capel has no fire. He's letting pitino own the officials.

[Karl Beem]

Yikes!

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Capel has no fire. He's letting pitino own the officials.
Privately, I thought Capel coached a poor game vs FSU. Today, this game, he's coaching a worse game. No fire and no apparent ingame adjustments. Not getting into a player's face and "motivating" him. Not working the refs at all. Good thing this isn't his "audition". He wouldn't get the part/job. And I've been a Capel fan and supporter.

Ha! A Bolden sighting!

[kmspeaks]

I'm so tired of watching all the bumping, clutching, grabbing, etc and hearing it called "physical basketball". Some of what Louisville, FSU, and UVA do would be flagged on a football field but college basketball officials let it go.

[Spanarkel]

I'm so tired of watching all the bumping, clutching, grabbing, etc and hearing it called "physical basketball". Some of what Louisville, FSU, and UVA do would be flagged on a football field but college basketball officials let it go.

Yes! Agree.
On another subject, if Bolden is pulled from the game now after not catching that very low pass from Grayson(ie, I don't blame Bolden for the TO) I will not be happy. Bolden has been on a too short leash so far this season.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

I'm so tired of watching all the bumping, clutching, grabbing, etc and hearing it called "physical basketball". Some of what Louisville, FSU, and UVA do would be flagged on a football field but college basketball officials let it go.

It's not the officials' fault that Duke is not playing well.

[Eternal Outlaw]

I'm so tired of watching all the bumping, clutching, grabbing, etc and hearing it called "physical basketball". Some of what Louisville, FSU, and UVA do would be flagged on a football field but college basketball officials let it go.

Remember the Kansas game where both teams were non stopped called because of the emphasis of freedom of movement? Yeah, that emphasis lasted a good month or so.

[Kfanarmy]

Tatum takes some really silly shots. Good grief.

[Spanarkel]

It's not the officials' fault that Duke is not playing well.


Did you see just Mitchell just shove Matt Jones in the paint and then score the layup?

[kmspeaks]

It's not the officials' fault that Duke is not playing well.

Nor did I say it was.

[AFL]

Without Amile , we have no big worth a rat's patoot.

I will second that.

[Selover]

I think we just got called for a travel during this commercial...

[Spanarkel]

Why do Louisville's(Mitchell's) ankle injuries last just a few minutes? That last 3 of his was several feet beyond the arc.

[Kjeffrey]

Yes! Agree.
On another subject, if Bolden is pulled from the game now after not catching that very low pass from Grayson(ie, I don't blame Bolden for the TO) I will not be happy. Bolden has been on a too short leash so far this season.

Ant yet it seems like Tatum's leash is miles long.