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JBDuke
01-10-2017, 10:10 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

DukeWarhead
01-10-2017, 10:11 PM
Weak. Pathetic. Sad.

mattman91
01-10-2017, 10:11 PM
Grayson updates?

jipops
01-10-2017, 10:12 PM
I'm pretty sure we made more jump shots than the Noles in the 2nd half.

rsvman
01-10-2017, 10:12 PM
Ouch. That's gonna leave a mark.

Jefferson needs to heal up soon, and the younger players really need to keep working on team defense.

Sloppy turnovers and poor free throw shooting were surprising.

SlapTheFloor
01-10-2017, 10:12 PM
Poor performance. We hurried when there was plenty of time left and played with no urgency when the game was on the line. I don't know whether to hang this loss on the lack of Amile or Coach K, but we showed no poise or leadership.

brlftz
01-10-2017, 10:13 PM
Looking like a "what might have been" season

CameronDuke
01-10-2017, 10:14 PM
What happened to Grayson to make him leave the game? On the ACC Network telecast, no replay was shown. Of course had Grayson caused another player to leave the game with an injury at least one or two replays probably would have been shown. I hope Grayson is not seriously injured.

jbay201
01-10-2017, 10:14 PM
we'll win the next one

kinda odd no one talked about grayson's injury and he just left wtf?

fuse
01-10-2017, 10:15 PM
I talked about grit and fight in the first half.

FSU took us out of the game- the kick outs in the first half for 3s, FSU took away in the second and we were afraid to drive to the basket.

The team seemed to stop fighting around the time of the Tatum travel call.

Hoping Amile is better soon.

Let's go Duke!

SlapTheFloor
01-10-2017, 10:15 PM
I don't mean to sound harsh, but if this is Capel's audition to replace Coach K, it's not going well so far.

weezie
01-10-2017, 10:15 PM
Seems Grayson was kicked in the testicles.

WakeDevil
01-10-2017, 10:16 PM
All that was injured in this game were our eyeballs.

elvis14
01-10-2017, 10:16 PM
Seems Grayson was kicked in the testicles.

Feels like we all were :(

FerryFor50
01-10-2017, 10:16 PM
First game without Amile. 2nd without K. Played in a hostile environment. Against an FSU team that ALWAYS plays physical. With Teddy Valentine as an official.

What could go wrong?

Well, for one, the defensive communication was bad. Predictable with Amile out.

The offense was having trouble with consistency. Could have been nerves. Could have been legs. Or... maybe the constant holding, grabbing and hacking that went uncalled. Who knows? :rolleyes:

Despite that (and Duke foul trouble), Duke was in it all the way until the 2nd half when Tatum got called for a phantom travel that probably could have been a foul. From there, FSU was unstoppable and Duke was all out of sync.

Maybe the L'ville game will be better. But make no mistake - this FSU team is good. Solid offensively. Athletic. No shame in losing to them.

I will say that the game chat was a bit of a chicken little fest. Lots of complaints about this team - all similar to the ones from 2015. Lack of interior defense despite having an elite freshman big man. Lack of cohesion. "We're just not that good." Complaints about one and done players. It's all kind of silly, really. They're 14-3. Lots of season left.

JBDuke
01-10-2017, 10:17 PM
Looking like a "what might have been" season

Don't you think that early January is a little late to write off this team's prospects? Especially given their lack of time together? If thing aren't substantially better in a month, then start worrying. But this was a conference game on the road against a top 10 opponent who had won 11 in a row coming into the game. They're big, deep, and play tough defense. We have talent, but some of it - especially Giles and Bolden - are still recovering from injury and trying to figure out how to play effectively with their teammates. Our team captain and best interior defender is on the bench.

Let's give it a bit longer before declaring this a lost season. Sheesh.

kshepinthehouse
01-10-2017, 10:17 PM
I talked about grit and fight in the first half.

FSU took us out of the game- the kick outs in the first half for 3s, FSU took away in the second and we were afraid to drive to the basket.

The team seemed to stop fighting around the time of the Tatum travel call.

Hoping Amile is better soon.

Let's go Duke!

I actually think that was a big call. He dunks that maybe we get the momentum and who knows what happens after that.

Troublemaker
01-10-2017, 10:17 PM
Great learning experience. We took our lumps obviously, but that will make it sweeter when the team comes together later on. Plenty of season left.

Most disappointing aspect was our turnovers and poor offensive decision-making. Their pressure defense beat our offense in this game, and our defense isn't at a place where we can overcome bad offense.

sagegrouse
01-10-2017, 10:17 PM
All that was injured in this game were our eyeballs.

See Weezie's post.

Billy Dat
01-10-2017, 10:18 PM
That's a tough one. This team has had more disruption than probably any Duke team, ever. When the game was in the balance, with about 14 to go, we played young with lots of turnovers and never could guard their penetration. Every game is a tough one to not have Amile, but this one really was.

Credit FSU, they are a deep, hungry, athletic, skilled and long team who imposes their style.

Hopefully Grayson doesn't have a meaningful injury, and hopefully we can regroup for Louisville.

FerryFor50
01-10-2017, 10:18 PM
What happened to Grayson to make him leave the game? On the ACC Network telecast, no replay was shown. Of course had Grayson caused another player to leave the game with an injury at least one or two replays probably would have been shown. I hope Grayson is not seriously injured.

He dove after a loose ball and came out after. Dunno what happened.

jbay201
01-10-2017, 10:19 PM
kicked in the balls seriously wtf no replays of that but anytime a player falls near him its a trip! this is absolute BS!

Kjeffrey
01-10-2017, 10:19 PM
I don't mean to sound harsh, but if this is Capel's audition to replace Coach K, it's not going well so far.

said the same thing to my husband about 10 minutes ago

Les Grossman
01-10-2017, 10:19 PM
1 on 5 play on the Offensive end.Tatum trying to do too much
Needed to see more grayson and luke in 2nd half.

Oh well, hurry back coach k

FerryFor50
01-10-2017, 10:20 PM
Great learning experience. We took our lumps obviously, but that will make it sweeter when the team comes together later on. Plenty of season left.

Most disappointing aspect was our turnovers and poor offensive decision-making. Their pressure defense beat our offense in this game, and our defense isn't at a place where we can overcome bad offense.

Yup. They looked like they wanted to pass, just weren't very good at it tonight.

kshepinthehouse
01-10-2017, 10:20 PM
Don't you think that early January is a little late to write off this team's prospects? Especially given their lack of time together? If thing aren't substantially better in a month, then start worrying. But this was a conference game on the road against a top 10 opponent who had won 11 in a row coming into the game. They're big, deep, and play tough defense. We have talent, but some of it - especially Giles and Bolden - are still recovering from injury and trying to figure out how to play effectively with their teammates. Our team captain and best interior defender is on the bench.

Let's give it a bit longer before declaring this a lost season. Sheesh.

We've also had plenty seasons where we start it 15-0 and then end up sputtering down the stretch. Maybe it's our year to start slow and improve as we go along for a deep run in March.

cruxer
01-10-2017, 10:21 PM
Don't you think that early January is a little late to write off this team's prospects? .......

Let's give it a bit longer before declaring this a lost season. Sheesh.

Word. I distinctly remember the 2015 champs getting their hats handed to them at home in January when Winslow was a little gimpy. They seemed to pull it together.

subzero02
01-10-2017, 10:21 PM
Our freshman need to grow up in a hurry... if Jeter could finish in the paint, he'd be all conference 3rd team maybe. I liked the full court followed by some zone play. I hope this Tatum's worst game of the season, he really tried to do too much.

mattman91
01-10-2017, 10:21 PM
This team is very weak and seems to lack leadership without K and/or Amile.

Tatum needs to play smarter. He is incredibly talented, but turns the ball over and takes way too many bad shots.

jacone21
01-10-2017, 10:22 PM
Word. I distinctly remember the 2015 champs getting their hats handed to them at home in January when Winslow was a little gimpy. They seemed to pull it together.

This isn't the 2015 team because... point guard.

Emerrick
01-10-2017, 10:22 PM
All in all, I thought Jeter played well. Tatum, meh... forcing it. No other bigs really stepped up. Lots of heart, not great execution.

mattman91
01-10-2017, 10:22 PM
Hope Allen's jewels are OK.

Fish80
01-10-2017, 10:22 PM
A loss in Tallahassee. Always tough. They are good this year. We had some challenges we weren't able to overcome. Video, weights, practice, next game.

Hope Grayson is okay.

Coballs
01-10-2017, 10:23 PM
The injuries to the freshmen and the resultant inability to get the full squad practicing together early and then playing as a complete unit in the pre-ACC games is now coming back to rear it's ugly head. The freshmen are all totally lost, most significantly on the defensive end, and this team has developed absolutely no chemistry nor ability to play team ball. Unfortunately, it's starting to looking as if they are way too far behind the curve at this juncture of the season to turn things around and become a legitimate contender for the NC, let alone the juggernaut that many of us were expecting to see this season. I hope that I am very wrong, but all I'm seeing right now is an extremely flawed team.

Troublemaker
01-10-2017, 10:23 PM
First game without Amile. 2nd without K. Played in a hostile environment. Against an FSU team that ALWAYS plays physical. With Teddy Valentine as an official.

What could go wrong?

Well, for one, the defensive communication was bad. Predictable with Amile out.

The offense was having trouble with consistency. Could have been nerves. Could have been legs. Or... maybe the constant holding, grabbing and hacking that went uncalled. Who knows? :rolleyes:

Despite that (and Duke foul trouble), Duke was in it all the way until the 2nd half when Tatum got called for a phantom travel that probably could have been a foul. From there, FSU was unstoppable and Duke was all out of sync.

Maybe the L'ville game will be better. But make no mistake - this FSU team is good. Solid offensively. Athletic. No shame in losing to them.

I will say that the game chat was a bit of a chicken little fest. Lots of complaints about this team - all similar to the ones from 2015. Lack of interior defense despite having an elite freshman big man. Lack of cohesion. "We're just not that good." Complaints about one and done players. It's all kind of silly, really. They're 14-3. Lots of season left.

Couldn't spork, but thanks for that post, Ferry.

I'm going to have fun looking back at this thread later on in the season.

dukelifer
01-10-2017, 10:24 PM
Great learning experience. We took our lumps obviously, but that will make it sweeter when the team comes together later on. Plenty of season left.

Most disappointing aspect was our turnovers and poor offensive decision-making. Their pressure defense beat our offense in this game, and our defense isn't at a place where we can overcome bad offense.

Tough game against a pretty decent team. The defensive woes are a big issue and may not be correctable quickly. Hard to win on the road and ever harder when you have key guys that are hurt or just coming back from injury. We have seen glimpses from this team but losing Amile is so critical- particularly on D and putting pressure on the other team's bigs. Losing K is also not great when this fragile. I hold judgment until I see the complete team back. If that doesn't happen- the only chance is a late season run.

CameronDuke
01-10-2017, 10:24 PM
It seems Grayson was kicked in the crotch, but does anyone have proof or a video? Still can't find where he got hurt. Was it intentional? Was it done by an FSU player?

Devilwin
01-10-2017, 10:25 PM
Don't you think that early January is a little late to write off this team's prospects? Especially given their lack of time together? If thing aren't substantially better in a month, then start worrying. But this was a conference game on the road against a top 10 opponent who had won 11 in a row coming into the game. They're big, deep, and play tough defense. We have talent, but some of it - especially Giles and Bolden - are still recovering from injury and trying to figure out how to play effectively with their teammates. Our team captain and best interior defender is on the bench.

Let's give it a bit longer before declaring this a lost season. Sheesh.

You may be right, but again, so much was expected of this bunch that people feel let down. They have little offensive cohesion, and have no clue how to play inside defense. How much longer must we wait? It was "Just you wait til Christmas". Just you wait til January." Now it's February.......

jipops
01-10-2017, 10:25 PM
Maybe there was no reading too much into the last 25+ minutes of the BC game. Without Amile we just aren't a very good team. We looked flustered and under prepared the entire game. Almost nobody looked more lost and out of sorts than Tatum.

On the positive side I do think Grayson did a great job distributing in the 1st half. But it eventually wore him down and fsu's guards got into the lane whenever they wanted.

We're just a team without a lot of options. Giles and Bolden are way behind. With them and Jeter there are 3 big guys that aren't able to contribute much at this level. As a result we don't have any options in the front court with Amile out. And to top it off we showed some glaring weakness on perimeter D.

I do believe things will get better. We've been down some similar roads before. But there are a number of tough losses ahead and hope of finally capturing an ACC title has just about evaporated.

FerryFor50
01-10-2017, 10:26 PM
It seems Grayson was kicked in the crotch, but does anyone have proof or a video? Still can't find where he got hurt. Was it intentional? Was it done by an FSU player?

airowe said it was a hand/wrist issue on Twitter. But I guess we'll know more later. He did seem to be holding his hand/wrist when walking back, and it was right after he dove for a loose ball.

dukelifer
01-10-2017, 10:27 PM
This team is very weak and seems to lack leadership without K and/or Amile.

Tatum needs to play smarter. He is incredibly talented, but turns the ball over and takes way too many bad shots.

Tatum is still young- missed a ton of time. The team is not cohesive yet - particularly on D. That is the main issue right now.

FerryFor50
01-10-2017, 10:28 PM
I'll say this; a lot of people were trashing Jeter in chat, but he was the best interior defender they had tonight. Drew 2-3 charges, got a couple blocks. Most of the points he gave up were well defended or after he challenged a shot off a drive and his man got a putback.

Kjeffrey
01-10-2017, 10:28 PM
First game without Amile. 2nd without K. Played in a hostile environment. Against an FSU team that ALWAYS plays physical. With Teddy Valentine as an official.

What could go wrong?

Well, for one, the defensive communication was bad. Predictable with Amile out.

The offense was having trouble with consistency. Could have been nerves. Could have been legs. Or... maybe the constant holding, grabbing and hacking that went uncalled. Who knows? :rolleyes:

Despite that (and Duke foul trouble), Duke was in it all the way until the 2nd half when Tatum got called for a phantom travel that probably could have been a foul. From there, FSU was unstoppable and Duke was all out of sync.

Maybe the L'ville game will be better. But make no mistake - this FSU team is good. Solid offensively. Athletic. No shame in losing to them.

I will say that the game chat was a bit of a chicken little fest. Lots of complaints about this team - all similar to the ones from 2015. Lack of interior defense despite having an elite freshman big man. Lack of cohesion. "We're just not that good." Complaints about one and done players. It's all kind of silly, really. They're 14-3. Lots of season left.

What was the offensive plan? Seemed no one knew what to do. Maybe it was all the things you mentioned but for a team that struggles mightily with defense Duke definitely needs more consistent offense.

I may be in the minority but I am not sold on FSU. They are deep and certainly have some good players. However, the played at home against a team that played poorly with very favorable officiating and up until the Tatum travel call Duke was right in the game. The next two weeks will tell a lot about them though one way or the other.

jv001
01-10-2017, 10:28 PM
You may be right, but again, so much was expected of this bunch that people feel let down. They have little offensive cohesion, and have no clue how to play inside defense. How much longer must we wait? It was "Just you wait til Christmas". Just you wait til January." Now it's February....

Where in the heck do you live. Here in NC it's January 10th. Way too much season left to write this squad off. GoDuke!

dukelifer
01-10-2017, 10:29 PM
airowe said it was a hand/wrist issue on Twitter. But I guess we'll know more later. He did seem to be holding his hand/wrist when walking back, and it was right after he dove for a loose ball.
Definitely not good if he is out.

91devil
01-10-2017, 10:29 PM
Certainly the current team has issues. The freshmen looked overwhelmed tonight. Played much too fast. Our interior defense was very soft.

We were in the game for 28-ish minutes and then lost our composure (and FSU really stepped it up a notch).

To all of the doomsday-sayers.....notice that No. 1 ranked Baylor got whipped by over twenty points tonight, in a game that wasn't even that close. Do you think their fan base is throwing in the towel?

P.S. Did Coach Capel play Jeter ahead of Giles / Bolden in the second half because of performance, or to send a message?

duke4ever19
01-10-2017, 10:29 PM
airowe said it was a hand/wrist issue on Twitter. But I guess we'll know more later. He did seem to be holding his hand/wrist when walking back, and it was right after he dove for a loose ball.

Well isn't this a fine kettle of fish.

Emerrick
01-10-2017, 10:29 PM
This isn't the 2015 team because... point guard.

My son and I have this debate going on for several years now. A very good point guard is a must. For whatever reason, I believe GA can be that man - at least on the offensive side of the ball. He seems out of control at times, but his distribution skills are quite good. The problem is he really doesn't have another good shooting guard (relatively speaking) other than Kennard. He needs one more option (can we clone him?)

CameronDuke
01-10-2017, 10:30 PM
airowe said it was a hand/wrist issue on Twitter. But I guess we'll know more later. He did seem to be holding his hand/wrist when walking back, and it was right after he dove for a loose ball.

Thank you. I tell you, Cory Alexander (an analyst on the ACC Network telecast) didn't show much concern for Grayson when he left the game and no replay was shown. His interest level in Grayson's injury certainly wasn't as high as his interest level in the number of games of Grayson's suspension for the tripping incidents or Coach K's disciplinary practices.

ChillinDuke
01-10-2017, 10:30 PM
This team is very weak and seems to lack leadership without K and/or Amile.

Tatum needs to play smarter. He is incredibly talented, but turns the ball over and takes way too many bad shots.

That was my takeaway as well.

Tatum plays as if he's never heard the phrase "next level". He seems to just think he will always dominate all the time. Which is really stupid. I counted three plays where a simple shot fake should have yielded points. Instead, for example, he tried to dunk on a player two inches taller that was blatantly waiting to meet him at the rim with perfect timing.

Stuff like that is what sets apart the men from the boys. Boys try to dunk every time. Men go in hard, pump fake, get a defender in the air, finish through contact, and knock down a throw for a 3-pt play to stem a major run on an away court.

Just sayin'.

- Chillin

FerryFor50
01-10-2017, 10:31 PM
What was the offensive plan? Seemed no one knew what to do. Maybe it was all the things you mentioned but for a team that struggles mightily with with defense Duke definitely needs more consistent offense.

I may be in the minority but I am not sold on FSU. They are deep and certainly have some good players. However, the played at home against a team that played poorly with very favorable officiating and up until the Tatum travel call Duke was right in the game. The next two weeks will tell a lot about them though one way or the other.

FSU has wins over UVA and VT, too. Maybe is too early to tell. Hope they keep up the hot shooting and manhandling defense against UNC, though. Naturally, they're going to choke, though.

Monmouth77
01-10-2017, 10:31 PM
Someone said it already but if Chase could finish around the rim (even just a little) and hit free throws, he would be a quality ACC center. Onward and upward!

Kjeffrey
01-10-2017, 10:31 PM
I'll say this; a lot of people were trashing Jeter in chat, but he was the best interior defender they had tonight. Drew 2-3 charges, got a couple blocks. Most of the points he gave up were well defended or after he challenged a shot off a drive and his man got a putback.

I am guessing that is why he played instead of Bolden and Giles. He seemed to be the best option tonight.

jv001
01-10-2017, 10:32 PM
Certainly the current team has issues. The freshmen looked overwhelmed tonight. Played much too fast. Our interior defense was very soft.

We were in the game for 28-ish minutes and then lost our composure (and FSU really stepped it up a notch).

To all of the doomsday-sayers....notice that No. 1 ranked Baylor got whipped by over twenty points tonight, in a game that wasn't even that close. Do you think their fan base is throwing in the towel?

P.S. Did Coach Capel play Jeter ahead of Giles / Bolden in the second half because of performance, or to send a message?

I think Jeter was out performing both. I liked the hustle shown by Jeter and Matt tonight. If there's a MOTM, one of them will get my vote. GoDuke!

weezie
01-10-2017, 10:33 PM
It seems Grayson was kicked in the crotch, but does anyone have proof or a video? Still can't find where he got hurt. Was it intentional? Was it done by an FSU player?

The play by play guy said something went down incidentally. Corey didn't see it. We replayed the sequence but only got that audio.

FerryFor50
01-10-2017, 10:34 PM
That was my takeaway as well.

Tatum plays as if he's never heard the phrase "next level". He seems to just think he will always dominate all the time. Which is really stupid. I counted three plays where a simple shot fake should have yielded points. Instead, for example, he tried to dunk on a player two inches taller that was blatantly waiting to meet him at the rim with perfect timing.

Stuff like that is what sets apart the men from the boys. Boys try to dunk every time. Men go in hard, pump fake, get a defender in the air, finish through contact, and knock down a throw for a 3-pt play to stem a major run on an away court.

Just sayin'.

- Chillin

True, but he is kind of on a developmental delay; this is only his 8th or 9th college game as a freshman. Hopefully he figures it out and goes back to finesse. I think he tried to dunk in this game a few times out of frustration. He wasn't getting the calls on the finesse plays.

NashvilleDevil
01-10-2017, 10:34 PM
You may be right, but again, so much was expected of this bunch that people feel let down. They have little offensive cohesion, and have no clue how to play inside defense. How much longer must we wait? It was "Just you wait til Christmas". Just you wait til January." Now it's February....

Yes so much was expected of this bunch because everyone thought they would be healthy save for Giles. Then everyone started getting hurt. Last Wednesday Duke drubbed Ga. Tech in an impressive display with everyone healthy. On Saturday they were drubbing BC and then Amile got hurt. Duke has had their entire team healthy for a grand total of 3 halves. Save the chicken little routine for late February/early March.

Furniture
01-10-2017, 10:34 PM
Grayson updates?

Duke Basketball‏ @dukebasketball (https://mobile.twitter.com/dukebasketball)
Grayson Allen says he's fine after leaving today's game with 5:36 left after a battle for a loose ball:

jv001
01-10-2017, 10:34 PM
Thank you. I tell you, Cory Alexander (an analyst on the ACC Network telecast) didn't show much concern for Grayson when he left the game and no replay was shown. His interest level in Grayson's injury certainly wasn't as high as his interest level in the number of games of Grayson's suspension for the tripping incidents or Coach K's disciplinary practices.

Unless Bob Harris or G-Man does the game, I'll mute the rest of this sorry gang of announcers. Yeh, I know Bob is on the radio broadcast. GoDuke!

Troublemaker
01-10-2017, 10:35 PM
I'll say this; a lot of people were trashing Jeter in chat, but he was the best interior defender they had tonight. Drew 2-3 charges, got a couple blocks. Most of the points he gave up were well defended or after he challenged a shot off a drive and his man got a putback.

Yeah, Chase was our best option at center in this game. It might've been worse if he hadn't been healthy enough to play.

DUKIE V(A)
01-10-2017, 10:36 PM
This team is at it's best when Grayson drives and makes plays for his teammates and when Luke has his hands on the ball. I would like to see Luke shoot more.

Our defense tonight was pretty weak. We could not stop penetration and did not rebound well when we had the chance to make stops.

The key sequence to me was up 50-48 the refs make a questionable travel call on a Tatum break away. We followed that with a series of unnecessary, poor decisions on offense (e.g., attempting two unlikely alley oops to a still less than 100 percent Giles - one with Luke wide open in the corner for three) and several less than passionate defensive possessions. Crowd goes wild and the game got away from us.

Give FSU credit. They are long, talented, athletic, and played with excellent passion tonight. That said, a more poised, mentally tough effort would have made this a close one.

Bluegrassdevil1
01-10-2017, 10:38 PM
Many posters, and to a point, Coach K, have mentioned that due to injury issues, Duke is currently in October mode, which would mean that in March, Duke will be in January mode. I think most rationale Duke fans would take "January" mode during March Madness without hesitation.

This is not a perfect team, and will likely never be a perfect team; however, Capel is a fine coach (I would have ZERO issue with him taking over the program), Chase Jeter is a highly rated recruit that spends long stretches on the bench, and when his number is called, the kid goes all out, never whines, never pouts, just does what he is told by the coaches (give me that kid and a loss every day).

Duke may never reach its "expectations," and we may all find ourselves quite disappointed; HOWEVER, Duke may reach its peak when the time is best, and should that happen, no one will be disappointed about anything related to this basketball season.

kshepinthehouse
01-10-2017, 10:39 PM
At this point I don't think Giles provides enough on offense to provide for his lack of awareness on defense. He's definitely a step behind.
I also think we miss Amile's offensive boards, seems he has a knack for getting those that can't be replaced.

freshmanjs
01-10-2017, 10:42 PM
How many points did FSU get from dunks? Seemed like at least 20. That's the issue to me.

kshepinthehouse
01-10-2017, 10:42 PM
This team is at it's best when Grayson drives and makes plays for his teammates and when Luke has his hands on the ball. I would like to see Luke shoot more.

Our defense tonight was pretty weak. We could not stop penetration and did not rebound well when we had the chance to make stops.

The key sequence to me was up 50-48 the refs make a questionable travel call on a Tatum break away. We followed that with a series of unnecessary, poor decisions on offense (e.g., attempting two unlikely alley oops to a still less than 100 percent Giles - one with Luke wide open in the corner for three) and several less than passionate defensive possessions. Crowd goes wild and the game got away from us.

Give FSU credit. They are long, talented, athletic, and played with excellent passion tonight. That said, a more poised, mentally tough effort would have made this a close one.

I agree. It seems they go away from Luke too much. He doesn't seem to demand the ball but I think it would be a good idea to run our offense through him. He's tough to defend and a pretty good decision maker.

jv001
01-10-2017, 10:43 PM
At this point I don't think Giles provides enough on offense to provide for his lack of awareness on defense. He's definitely a step behind.
I also think we miss Amile's offensive boards, seems he has a knack for getting those that can't be replaced.

To be a top five team, Giles will have to play close to his potential and for Bolden, I don't just don't know what to make of his game. GoDuke!

FerryFor50
01-10-2017, 10:43 PM
How many points did FSU get from dunks? Seemed like at least 20. That's the issue to me.

I think it's recency bias; most of the dunks came after FSU opened up a double digit lead.

KandG
01-10-2017, 10:44 PM
Way too early to write off this team. This is a bad stretch though, with probably 3 good halves of play total out of 12 in the last six games, against a far from murderous stretch of opposition outside of FSU tonight.

Second straight game an opposition guard has torched our defense in the second half - BC's Jerome Robinson with 19 second half points last game, Rathan-Mayes with 18 second half points tonight.

Not going to single out anyone since this looked like a game full of freshman mistakes, and the lack of continuity and a point guard exacerbates the impact of those mistakes. With that said, against a team with the size and physicality of Florida State, the rawness of Giles and Bolden really stood out.

There's a reason Jeter played more than the other two bigs: his defensive awareness and ability to play the pick and roll was at a different level. Chase's only issues are that he's just not strong enough to muscle with the FSU frontline (or guards for that matter) and doesn't have the explosiveness or confidence to finish on offense. But I thought Chase was quite good under the circumstances.

Harry really needs to improve his awareness on D. I won't say much more because it's unfair to point out mistakes from someone still so early in his comeback. But he looked lost. If Chase and Jayson are our backline with Amile's absence, we're going to have to shoot our way to wins since we're going to be hemorrhaging points.

Thought we dodged a bullet when we got in the bonus with 12:25 left in the first half. To our credit, we only committed 4 more fouls after that (one a player-control foul, and FSU shot 3 of 6 FTs from the remaining fouls). Didn't end the first half well after tying the score, though, and seemed to be going uphill for most of the second half after taking a brief lead.

Grayson did a reasonable job moving the ball and finding shooters, and we had some good looks fail to go down. But against really good teams, we need him to score a little more. Think he's still finding the right mix, and to be fair FSU played him very well for most of the game.

I'd chill on any Capel criticism. The issues with this team precede him, and with Amile's continued absence and the numerous injuries/absences, they may continue for a bit longer.

freshmanjs
01-10-2017, 10:44 PM
I think it's recency bias; most of the dunks came after FSU opened up a double digit lead.

They had a number of dunks in 1st half and early 2nd half. I don't have a count, but would be curious to see.

NYBri
01-10-2017, 10:45 PM
Well, that happened.

Thinking back, I really can't remember a more undisciplined game by Duke.

Lost, is a better word for it.

Next play, hopefully with Amile.

FerryFor50
01-10-2017, 10:46 PM
They had a number of dunks in 1st half and early 2nd half. I don't have a count, but would be curious to see.

I'd go back and watch to try to count, but that would be masochism.

Kjeffrey
01-10-2017, 10:46 PM
I agree. It seems they go away from Luke too much. He doesn't seem to demand the ball but I think it would be a good idea to run our offense through him. He's tough to defend and a pretty good decision maker.

I can't help but wonder about his post game comments a few weeks back in regards to this team. He has been the best player this season and yet,like tonight, the ball is monopolized by someone else. Could his "buying in" comments been in reference to some not playing like a team?

jipops
01-10-2017, 10:46 PM
I am guessing that is why he played instead of Bolden and Giles. He seemed to be the best option tonight.

Which isn't saying much. Have to give Chase credit for his effort. Unfortunately there just isn't much he brings to the table. With Harry and Marquis still being clueless on D, that left Jeter who at this time makes fewer mistakes than the other 2 on that end. But if we're forced play Chase an extended amount of time then that is not a good thing. He also gets caught out of position on defense and is lackluster on the boards for a guy at his position. On the offensive end he's really just there to set high screens.

I'm really not sure what can be done for Giles and Bolden. Marques really looks like he is lost now, really like the more typical freshman that requires a few years to grow into an effective player.

FerryFor50
01-10-2017, 10:47 PM
I can't help but wonder about his post game comments a few weeks back in regards to this team. He has been the best player this season and yet,like tonight, the ball is monopolized by someone else.

Those comments could have meant a lot of things. Recall Allen wasn't in pass first mode back then, and it was right after the game that Allen tripped someone.

jv001
01-10-2017, 10:49 PM
Way too early to write off this team. This is a bad stretch though, with probably 3 good halves of play total out of 12 in the last six games, against a far from murderous stretch of opposition outside of FSU tonight.

Second straight game an opposition guard has torched our defense in the second half - BC's Jerome Robinson with 19 second half points last game, Rathan-Mayes with 18 second half points tonight.

Not going to single out anyone since this looked like a game full of freshman mistakes, and the lack of continuity and a point guard exacerbates the impact of those mistakes. With that said, against a team with the size and physicality of Florida State, the rawness of Giles and Bolden really stood out.

There's a reason Jeter played more than the other two bigs: his defensive awareness and ability to play the pick and roll was at a different level. Chase's only issues are that he's just not strong enough to muscle with the FSU frontline (or guards for that matter) and doesn't have the explosiveness or confidence to finish on offense. But I thought Chase was quite good under the circumstances.

Harry really needs to improve his awareness on D. I won't say much more because it's unfair to point out mistakes from someone still so early in his comeback. But he looked lost. If Chase and Jayson are our backline with Amile's absence, we're going to have to shoot our way to wins since we're going to be hemorrhaging points.

Thought we dodged a bullet when we got in the bonus with 12:25 left in the first half. To our credit, we only committed 4 more fouls after that (one a player-control foul, and FSU shot 3 of 6 FTs from the remaining fouls). Didn't end the first half well after tying the score, though, and seemed to be going uphill for most of the second half after taking a brief lead.

Grayson did a reasonable job moving the ball and finding shooters, and we had some good looks fail to go down. But against really good teams, we need him to score a little more. Think he's still finding the right mix, and to be fair FSU played him very well for most of the game.
I'd chill on any Capel criticism. The issues with this team precede him, and with Amile's continued absence and the numerous injuries/absences, they may continue for a bit longer.

Good points. I wish Frank was the typical point guard that could get other involved in the offense. He looks like a shooting guard more than a distributor. We have the offensive fire power if we just had someone to get them the ball on occasion. GoDuke!

brlftz
01-10-2017, 10:51 PM
Don't you think that early January is a little late to write off this team's prospects? Especially given their lack of time together? If thing aren't substantially better in a month, then start worrying. But this was a conference game on the road against a top 10 opponent who had won 11 in a row coming into the game. They're big, deep, and play tough defense. We have talent, but some of it - especially Giles and Bolden - are still recovering from injury and trying to figure out how to play effectively with their teammates. Our team captain and best interior defender is on the bench.

Let's give it a bit longer before declaring this a lost season. Sheesh.

Didn't write them off, where did I say that? I'm simply saying that the trend is towards unfulfilled promise, mostly due to reasons beyond their control, some of which you list. If you think that it's more likely than not that this team reaches the potential it had before all the injuries and distractions, then great.

That said, I still believe it's possible that we will be the best team by the end of March. They're that talented. But it's not looking like it's headed that way. Too much ground top make up.

Utley
01-10-2017, 10:51 PM
For some reason I have just had a crazy optimism that this season was going to come together. I am now starting to wonder if we are just going to run out of time due to all the injuries.

I am a big fan of Harry and Bolden and think that our season is tied to their progress. I have no idea what to do there - it seems that the only way they are going to progress is by playing games like this - but I realize they are both playing so raw right now its hard to do that. Incredibly difficult dilemma for Capel.

Most of the above is trying to manage through some rotten luck. The one thing that really eats at me is the ongoing defensive layup drill fest. I'm used to us showing a little more moxie when it comes to that - I saw flashes of it from Frank Jackson. There's little to do but your best with freak injuries - but that doesn't mean you lose your will - and I felt like that has happened a couple of times now. Kind of weird to lose heart like that today after what I thought was a pretty gutty first half.

Let's learn from this and bring it Saturday. Splitting this two games would still feel like a win.

S_West30
01-10-2017, 10:52 PM
Good chemistry is one of the most underrated characteristics of great teams. So far Duke has had 7 different lineups through 17 games. Combine that with an injured senior leader/captain, along with the absence greatest coach in basketball history, and you have a recipe for trouble, regardless of the talent that's left on the team.

This team is going to struggle mightily until they can actually have time to mesh with one another, consistently. Really like Allen at the point, but he seemed erratic with his passing at some points tonight. His shots when he decides to take them can be questionable too, like that off balance three he took in the first half. Other than that, I think he's trending in the right direction.

Tatum may have been the second leading scorer, but his passing was atrocious and he tried to play hero ball almost exclusively in the second half. Great talent, but not great at playing team ball yet. Giles still looks like he isn't up to speed with the game, especially off ball screens and transition D.

This team's ceiling is unparalleled, but every week it feels as if a step is being removed from the staircase to get to the top. Here's to hoping the can turn it around later this week at Louisville.

Go Duke!

kshepinthehouse
01-10-2017, 10:53 PM
To be a top five team, Giles will have to play close to his potential and for Bolden, I don't just don't know what to make of his game. GoDuke!

Bolden can't stay out of foul trouble long enough for us to see his game.

Kjeffrey
01-10-2017, 10:55 PM
Which isn't saying much. Have to give Chase credit for his effort. Unfortunately there just isn't much he brings to the table. With Harry and Marquis still being clueless on D, that left Jeter who at this time makes fewer mistakes than the other 2 on that end. But if we're forced play Chase an extended amount of time then that is not a good thing. He also gets caught out of position on defense and is lackluster on the boards for a guy at his position. On the offensive end he's really just there to set high screens.

I'm really not sure what can be done for Giles and Bolden. Marques really looks like he is lost now, really like the more typical freshman that requires a few years to grow into an effective player.

Completely agree. I am so confused by Bolden. I remember reading somewhere that Capel said he had earned a starting spot before his injury. He wasn't out for that long. How could his game have changed that much? And who was going to sit if he started? I am not trying to criticize him and I am sure he is extremely frustrated. It is just a strange situation.

kshepinthehouse
01-10-2017, 10:57 PM
Good points. I wish Frank was the typical point guard that could get other involved in the offense. He looks like a shooting guard more than a distributor. We have the offensive fire power if we just had someone to get them the ball on occasion. GoDuke!

I agree. I think if Grayson would have hit a few more shots it def would have helped.

sagegrouse
01-10-2017, 10:58 PM
The play by play guy said something went down incidentally. Corey didn't see it. We replayed the sequence but only got that audio.

The announcer said, "He was in a catcher's position and that only means one thing."

devildeac
01-10-2017, 10:58 PM
The announcer said, "He was in a catcher's position and that only means one thing."

I'm waiting for the espn/cbssports/bleacherreport/cnn/fauxsports coverage/explanation...

6th Man
01-10-2017, 10:59 PM
It seemed to me that there were way too many careless passes and unforced errors in the second half. This team also really needs someone to step up defensively. VT, BC and FSU got to the hoop at will. Allen has great moments being a point but he got out of control at times too. I felt like we were hanging and carelessness let the game get out of hand. I see this team getting better and learning from that, but it's ultimately going to come down to defense and being smarter on offense.

jacone21
01-10-2017, 11:01 PM
I'm waiting for the espn/cbssports/bleacherreport/cnn/fauxsports coverage/explanation...

Headline: "Did Grayson Allen try to trip someone with his testicles?"

DUKIE V(A)
01-10-2017, 11:02 PM
This isn't the 2015 team because... point guard.

I agree that a point guard like Tyus would go a long way to making this team much more cohesive and effective. However, since his return from suspension, Grayson has been an outstanding playmaker for others. He has sacrificed his scoring to get others good shots and has racked up a ton of assists (and could have had more had some guys hit some relatively easy shots).

I believe the team will improve a great deal as we get healthier and the freshmen continue to develop.

My biggest concern is our defense. Without improved defense, a national title is not in the cards. The 2015 team found a way to improve defensively down the stretch. Perhaps this one can as well.

gofurman
01-10-2017, 11:03 PM
I'm pretty sure we made more jump shots than the Noles in the 2nd half.

Yep. Well played - by you and the noles. They took dunks and we shot jumpers. That's a losing formula. That had to be a top ten worst effort as measured by ' Dunks made by opponent'. If there were such a stat that would be a possible number one (meaning worst ever). I have never seen so much penetration and dunk via lob or put back.

Duke misses Amile. But it would have been tough even with him.

That was an as whooping and we deserved it!!! Those are some freajing nasty athletes in the post for fsu. Even when they didn't lob it for an alley oop they rebounded and jumped for an easy slam. Our guys looked pedestrian by comparison. Couldn't stop a. Dribble penetration (which has nothing to do w Amile at the outset, not until D rotation) .... And then b. FSU looked like an NBA team athletically compared to us - blocking Tatum and Jeter like we were a joke.

That's worrisome. I think fsu is seriously legitimate but I do think the dribble penetration issue is a big issue. There will be other top teams just as fast on the perimeter. Even if amile is in there he too has to rotate over to help after they blow by our alarmingly unathletic defenders and he becomes the alley-oop poster boy instead of Giles or Jeter. Once the perimeter blow by occurs it's over.

Don't blame free throws (75% is ok) or offense. That's entirely on the D. Entirely. No offense can keep up when they feel they have to score 88 per game

Wheat/"/"/"
01-10-2017, 11:07 PM
No inside game to open up some room for the outside shooting that was needed to stay in this one. Can't be overstated how much this team missed Amile.

As suspected, rebounding was a problem -8 total....of the bigs..Giles had 2, Bolden O, Jeter 6....they combined for 6 total points. Not going to beat many good teams with that kind of production in the paint.

29% from 3 pt range. 16 TO's. Fresh legs and FSU wing pressure took its toll.

Giles looks timid to me, like he's holding back. I have an ACL replacement. It gets in your head. I'm not sure he's gonna go all out this season, lots of $ in his future even if he falls from the lottery by playing soft to protect his knees.

Duke needs Amile back and to keep working on the defense.

sagegrouse
01-10-2017, 11:07 PM
I've got one takeaway from the last two games. Grayson is trying to be an angel and distribute the ball. Hell, he's our All-American; he needs to look for his shot and scrap for everything.

CDu
01-10-2017, 11:07 PM
Completely agree. I am so confused by Bolden. I remember reading somewhere that Capel said he had earned a starting spot before his injury. He wasn't out for that long. How could his game have changed that much? And who was going to sit if he started? I am not trying to criticize him and I am sure he is extremely frustrated. It is just a strange situation.

Alex Murphy supposedly was going to be a 4-year starter according to Coach K. A freshman, rail-thin Marshall Plumlee was allegedly among the top six (on a team with Miles, Mason, Kelly, Dawkins, Rivers, Cook, Gbinije, Hairston, and Thornton). The coaches are sometimes prone to hyperbole about the freshmen.

gofurman
01-10-2017, 11:10 PM
What was the offensive plan? Seemed no one knew what to do. Maybe it was all the things you mentioned but for a team that struggles mightily with defense Duke definitely needs more consistent offense.

I may be in the minority but I am not sold on FSU. They are deep and certainly have some good players. However, the played at home against a team that played poorly with very favorable officiating and up until the Tatum travel call Duke was right in the game. The next two weeks will tell a lot about them though one way or the other.


Fsu has now beaten numbers 23, 12, 21 and 7. That includes winning at UVA. That's tough as we know. That's a good fsu team in my book. And a really good team at home. I only wish Unc was coming to Tallahassee this weekend and we could have been at home.
I believe fsu is legit top 25 and a scary tourney team

DUKIE V(A)
01-10-2017, 11:11 PM
Headline: "Did Grayson Allen try to trip someone with his testicles?"

It's takes a lot of balls to suggest a headline like this. It's a pretty sore subject for Grayson and Blue Devil Nation.

Skydog
01-10-2017, 11:12 PM
This isn't the 2015 team because... point guard.

Can we get Tyus back?

This team is missing a true point guard. By that I mean someone who sees the quick outlet pass, pushes the ball every time, runs the break like butter, threads the needle for backdoors, or slows down and organizes the offense when needed. You know, like Tyus. Hurley. JWill. Grayson is trying to do it and he is such a great athlete he can pull it off somewhat with his drives, dishes and kickouts. But its not a natural position to him.

And there is another cost. Its hurting his offensive game big time, a sometimes unstoppable offense that carried us in many tough games the last two seasons. He seems to have lost confidence in his shot, both at jumpers and his usually reliable finishing at the rim. When is the last slash and dunk from him? He needs to mix it up more - dishing sometimes, taking it to the rack or taking pull up jumpers other times. Otherwise he becomes predictable and opponents start anticipating his dishes, like has been happening too often recently.

So far the game is too fast for our freshmen. They seem lost. Part of it is practice time, part of it is probably their reliance on athleticism in high school.

I'm sooo impressed with Kennard. His team was flailing and the environment hostile, but he never lost his cool. He anticipates, misdirects, and finishes - what more can you want? He had most of his problems when he tried to dish the ball late in the game, probably some fatigue, and some problems with his teammates readiness. But overall his bball IQ is really impressive - what we've seen from some Duke greats.

Someone said we gave up too many dunks, someone else said those were mostly in the 2nd half. I can tell you this - we gave up a crapload of layups and 1 footers for the entire game.

I'm not judging based on this one game but I think this team is a pg away from being great. Think it will be difficult to completely overcome that missing piece. Possible, yes. Likely, hmmm..I'll take the fifth.

DukieInBrasil
01-10-2017, 11:15 PM
Bolden can't stay out of foul trouble long enough for us to see his game.

well, fortunately he'll be around next year so we'll be able to see more of his game.

Troublemaker
01-10-2017, 11:15 PM
Giles looks timid to me, like he's holding back. I have an ACL replacement. It gets in your head. I'm not sure he's gonna go all out this season, lots of $ in his future even if he falls from the lottery by playing soft to protect his knees.

That's not the type of kid he is: https://dukeblueplanet.exposure.co/why-duke

CDu
01-10-2017, 11:17 PM
The team lost this game on dribble penetration and turnovers. Plain and simple.

Their guards broke us down, which caused our bigs to have to leave their man and play help defense. And that allowed their guards to get offensive rebounds. It is really hard to rebound when the other team has a 2-on-1 and 3-on-2.

FSU's bigs, as expected, didn't hurt us on the glass. Their 7-footers Ojo and Koumadje had a whopping 1 rebound in 16 minutes. Their 3 centers (including the 6'9" Smith) had just 6 rebounds in 38 minutes. By comparison, our centers got 8 rebounds in 39 minutes. And that is despite FSU outshooting us substantially.

No, our bigs weren't the problem on the glass, nor was FSU's size the problem. It was their mid-size perimeter guys (Bacon with 6, Mann with 7, Savoy/Angola-Rodas with 5) that hurt us on the glass. Because FSU spread us out and beat us off the dribble. Over and over and over again.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-10-2017, 11:18 PM
Maybe coach K can call Roy and work out a trade for Nate Britt. Duke could have sure used him tonight!:)

Furniture
01-10-2017, 11:20 PM
Tatum may have been the second leading scorer, but his passing was atrocious and he tried to play hero ball almost exclusively in the second half.
Go Duke!

jayson took a couple of shots more than Luke. Not that much difference between the two really. It could that the coaching staff know Luke can do it but they need it from Tatum too. I have to think that the coaching staff is telling him to go for it.



Duke


Player
MIN
PTS
AST
OFF
REB
STL
BLK
TO
PF
FG
FT
3PT
+/-


Luke Kennard (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_player_page.asp?reporttype=Details&total=yes&hleague=&howner=all&hplayer=958&pp=yes)
40
23
2
2
3
1
0
2
1
8-15
5-6
2-6
-15


Jayson Tatum (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_player_page.asp?reporttype=Details&total=yes&hleague=&howner=all&hplayer=1052&pp=yes)
38
21
0
0
4
1
0
4
2
7-17
4-5
3-6
-10

fan345678
01-10-2017, 11:22 PM
This team has no idea what it's doing. At this point, practice is more important than games. If we go 9-9 in the ACC and get a 7-seed, I still like our chances as long as we learn to play together...kind of like that Kentucky team that was an 8-seed and made the final.

jipops
01-10-2017, 11:24 PM
Over the last two seasons Duke is 22-3 with Amile. 17-11 without.

flyingdutchdevil
01-10-2017, 11:25 PM
Maybe coach K can call Roy and work out a trade for Nate Britt. Duke could have sure used him tonight!:)

It's amazing how wheat has factored more into my hatred for UNC than any other variable.

I used to not mind UNC (I know...I know). But over the last two years when wheat comes over to gloat? Jesus H...

Furniture
01-10-2017, 11:27 PM
On the positive side the headlines on espenny are all about Baylor tonight!

DUKIE V(A)
01-10-2017, 11:28 PM
Maybe coach K can call Roy and work out a trade for Nate Britt. Duke could have sure used him tonight!:)

Completely agree. What we really need is a 35 percent shooter averaging a career high 2.8 assists a game.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-10-2017, 11:29 PM
It's amazing how wheat has factored more into my hatred for UNC than any other variable.

I used to not mind UNC (I know...I know). But over the last two years when wheat comes over to gloat? Jesus H...

C'mon...have a sense of humor. If I can keep one after all the grief I get here, surely you can too every now and then.

fan345678
01-10-2017, 11:30 PM
This team has no idea what it's doing. At this point, practice is more important than games. If we go 9-9 in the ACC and get a 7-seed, I still like our chances as long as we learn to play together...kind of like that Kentucky team that was an 8-seed and made the final.

Also, did anyone actually expect to win this game without K and Amile? What happened tonight was exactly what we should have expected to happen.

mgtr
01-10-2017, 11:30 PM
At the beginning of the season, I was probably over-optimistic about the prospects for this team. Now, I am probably over-pessimistic. I have a hard time seeing how this team, right now, is any better than last years team. We could use a Marshall Plumlee. Giles needs a lot of improvement. Tatum is good, but still has a lot to learn. Bolden is ho-hum. Allen is so focused on not tripping anybody and being a distributer. that he has forgotten how to score. Kennard is about the same. but scores more. Jones is about the same.
This team could be very good, not as good as I dreamed, but a final four team. But they need a lot of improvement. I will hope they do it.

gofurman
01-10-2017, 11:31 PM
Over the last two seasons Duke is 22-3 with Amile. 17-11 without.

Great stat. Reasonable objective data. He is that important

CoachJ10
01-10-2017, 11:33 PM
our team (sans Amile) need to do different on defense? Our frosh and soph bigs just aren't very good right now, especially in the P&R. We can't continue to press up with our guards, if our bigs can't guard the rim and rotate over. Poised, experienced guards will continue to do some damage against us.

What adjustments do Capel and K need to do with this squad?

Wahoo2000
01-10-2017, 11:35 PM
Fsu has now beaten numbers 23, 12, 21 and 7. That includes winning at UVA. That's tough as we know. That's a good fsu team in my book. And a really good team at home. I only wish Unc was coming to Tallahassee this weekend and we could have been at home.
I believe fsu is legit top 25 and a scary tourney team

I think they're even better than that. That is as deep and talented a team as you'll find out there. The only thing I feel that would hold them back from being a top 5/final four favorite kind of team is this:

Hamilton-coached teams just have a propensity for not valuing the ball, and also being notoriously unaware of time/score situations. If they take care of the ball and avoid stretches of real bonehead plays, they can beat ANYBODY, ANYWHERE - even if the team they're playing is a top-tier team having a good game. All the physical pieces are there, FSU's chances at an ACC title, FF, or championship rest on the "between the ears" part of the game.

Not really all that surprising to see that one get away from Duke. You're getting next to nothing from Bolden and Giles, Jefferson is out, Allen has seemingly struggled scoring the ball this year, multiple guys forced to play 36-40 min and press late (when they were gassed), and K is out. I know you guys are spoiled by the level of your program's success over the years, but if you take the names off the jerseys and just looked at the makeup of the teams and how things were going entering this game, no reasonable person would've picked Duke as a favorite to get a W.

If you're able to get Jefferson back healthy, avoid more injuries to key guys, and get Giles and Allen rolling, you'll still be playing at the end of March.

JMarley50
01-10-2017, 11:40 PM
On the positive side the headlines on espenny are all about Baylor tonight!

You might have spoke too soon. Another Grayson thing picking up steam on Twitter...

moonpie23
01-10-2017, 11:44 PM
You might have spoke too soon. Another Grayson thing picking up steam on Twitter...

unfortunately, you're right........don't know how far this is going to run... (http://thespun.com/acc/duke/grayson-allen-fsu-florida-state-coach-shove-video)

JMarley50
01-10-2017, 11:53 PM
unfortunately, you're right....don't know how far this is going to run... (http://thespun.com/acc/duke/grayson-allen-fsu-florida-state-coach-shove-video)

I know I'm biased, but it looks to me like he was attempting to push off to get back on the floor, but the chairs took his legs out. Unfortunately public opinion is going to say different.

devildeac
01-10-2017, 11:53 PM
unfortunately, you're right...don't know how far this is going to run... (http://thespun.com/acc/duke/grayson-allen-fsu-florida-state-coach-shove-video)

This is truly insane.

Any coverage of his injury? Is it his hand/wrist or did he get kicked in the "reproductive" region?

devildeac
01-10-2017, 11:55 PM
I know I'm biased, but it looks to me like he was attempting to push off to get back on the floor, but the chairs took his legs out. Unfortunately public opinion is going to say different.

I think he tripped/kicked the chair. :rolleyes:

WiJoe
01-10-2017, 11:57 PM
Maybe coach K can call Roy and work out a trade for Nate Britt. Duke could have sure used him tonight!:)

You have to attend class at Duke. No phony classes.

NashvilleDevil
01-10-2017, 11:57 PM
This team has no idea what it's doing. At this point, practice is more important than games. If we go 9-9 in the ACC and get a 7-seed, I still like our chances as long as we learn to play together...kind of like that Kentucky team that was an 8-seed and made the final.

It's January 10th. This team will get right and they will not be a 7 seed in the tourney.

WiJoe
01-10-2017, 11:58 PM
C'mon...have a sense of humor. If I can keep one after all the grief I get here, surely you can too every now and then.

Fact is, there's no gun in your ribs to post here. Please spare us the whining.

JMarley50
01-10-2017, 11:59 PM
I think he tripped/kicked the chair. :rolleyes:

I think the chair tripped him. Indefinite suspension for that chair!

OZ
01-11-2017, 12:24 AM
Completely agree. What we really need is a 35 percent shooter averaging a career high 2.8 assists a game.

Britt, yet, another Roy "four and done."

mph
01-11-2017, 12:45 AM
It's amazing how wheat has factored more into my hatred for UNC than any other variable.

I used to not mind UNC (I know...I know). But over the last two years when wheat comes over to gloat? Jesus H...

He sure seems to show up on our boards a lot faster after our guys lose than after his guys lose. Must be what he means by "sense of humor" because I think that's pretty damn funny.

indy1duke
01-11-2017, 01:02 AM
I have not read anyone's post. The game was depressing enough. So far this year has produced the most disappointing Duke team that I have followed in over 50 years. The injuries, the very poor defense, the over-hyped players, the lack of a point guard and the high expectations have all contributed to my obscene language and murderous thoughts that have been thoroughly unpleasant. Honestly we look terrible and I fear that if we play like this at Cameron I might boo the team. Someone take away my tickets before I hurt myself.

My only hope is that the season miraculously turns around; Amile is suddenly cured; the injuries move to our rivals; and our frosh learn proper defensive rotations. Honestly I could not have conceived losing to Va Tech and Fl State this season.

Skydog
01-11-2017, 01:16 AM
unfortunately, you're right...don't know how far this is going to run... (http://thespun.com/acc/duke/grayson-allen-fsu-florida-state-coach-shove-video)

I've defended Grayson over and over and I am a die hard Duke fan but this is getting ridiculous. He isn't "righting his balance" there - the guy has a problem.

robed deity
01-11-2017, 01:18 AM
As a lifelong Duke fan who would die for tickets, I will gladly take them off your hands. February 9th sound good?

Kedsy
01-11-2017, 01:31 AM
They had a number of dunks in 1st half and early 2nd half. I don't have a count, but would be curious to see.

According to the official box score, FSU was 8 for 9 on dunks. Two of those dunks were in the first half.

subzero02
01-11-2017, 01:58 AM
I have not read anyone's post. The game was depressing enough. So far this year has produced the most disappointing Duke team that I have followed in over 50 years. The injuries, the very poor defense, the over-hyped players, the lack of a point guard and the high expectations have all contributed to my obscene language and murderous thoughts that have been thoroughly unpleasant. Honestly we look terrible and I fear that if we play like this at Cameron I might boo the team. Someone take away my tickets before I hurt myself.

My only hope is that the season miraculously turns around; Amile is suddenly cured; the injuries move to our rivals; and our frosh learn proper defensive rotations. Honestly I could not have conceived losing to Va Tech and Fl State this season.

I am still very optimistic about our prospects as a team. FSU is a very good team... Amile didn't play and Tatum learned some very valuable lessons tonight. The things he got away with in HS aren't going to fly against top notch collegiate competition(lazy cross court passes in half court sets). We have 3 losses against some very good teams(2 of which probably have solid elite 8/final four potential). Giles and Tatum are going to improve rapidly over the next few weeks. They aren't overrated... don't sleep on Jackson either; he has a competitive streak that might only be second to Allen's. The only player I am not sure of is Bolden... I hope he pushes Jeter down the depth chart but I am not sure that will happen this year.

Kedsy
01-11-2017, 02:04 AM
He has been the best player this season and yet,like tonight, the ball is monopolized by someone else.

Luke took 15 shots tonight. It's also true that Jayson took 17 shots tonight, but the third highest total on the team was Matt with 8 shots. In other words, Luke took plenty of shots tonight.

FWIW, Luke's average for the season before tonight was 12.9 shots per game. I really don't see his shot total tonight as a problem.


Bolden can't stay out of foul trouble long enough for us to see his game.

Marques had 1 foul tonight in 4 minutes. He wasn't taken out because of foul trouble.


Once the perimeter blow by occurs it's over.

Completely disagree. The 2010 team couldn't guard dribble-penetration either. We stopped that play with tremendous frontcourt rotation. This team has good frontcourt rotation with Amile, not so good without him.

But, going further, Duke teams have rarely guarded dribble-penetration well on the perimeter. And in today's environment, with today's rules, I think very few teams in Division I guard dribble-penetration well on the perimeter. But there are a lot of good defensive teams out there, so they must deal with it somehow (probably often after the blow-by).


Can we get Tyus back?

This team is missing a true point guard. By that I mean someone who sees the quick outlet pass, pushes the ball every time, runs the break like butter, threads the needle for backdoors, or slows down and organizes the offense when needed. You know, like Tyus. Hurley. JWill. Grayson is trying to do it and he is such a great athlete he can pull it off somewhat with his drives, dishes and kickouts. But its not a natural position to him.

Grayson has been our PG for three games. In those three games, he has averaged 7.7 apg with a 2.6 a/to ratio.

For comparison:

In 2015, Tyus Jones averaged 5.6 apg with a 2.9 a/to ratio;
In 1992, Bobby Hurley averaged 7.6 apg with a 2.2 a/to ratio;
In 2001, Jason Williams averaged 6.1 apg with a 1.5 a/to ratio.

Also, even with all the injuries and the PG options that you lament, and even after our mediocre offensive showing tonight, our offense is ranked #7 in the country by Pomeroy. I think I can say with a fair amount of confidence that lacking a PG is not one of the top problems for this year's Duke team, and also that (at least so far) turnovers by Grayson are nowhere near one of our biggest problems, either (he had 3 tonight).


I have not read anyone's post. The game was depressing enough. So far this year has produced the most disappointing Duke team that I have followed in over 50 years. The injuries, the very poor defense, the over-hyped players, the lack of a point guard and the high expectations have all contributed to my obscene language and murderous thoughts that have been thoroughly unpleasant. Honestly we look terrible and I fear that if we play like this at Cameron I might boo the team. Someone take away my tickets before I hurt myself.

My only hope is that the season miraculously turns around; Amile is suddenly cured; the injuries move to our rivals; and our frosh learn proper defensive rotations. Honestly I could not have conceived losing to Va Tech and Fl State this season.

Yes, I agree -- you should give your tickets away to someone who will appreciate them.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-11-2017, 03:06 AM
Luke took 15 shots tonight. It's also true that Jayson took 17 shots tonight, but the third highest total on the team was Matt with 8 shots. In other words, Luke took plenty of shots tonight.

FWIW, Luke's average for the season before tonight was 12.9 shots per game. I really don't see his shot total tonight as a problem.



Marques had 1 foul tonight in 4 minutes. He wasn't taken out because of foul trouble.



Completely disagree. The 2010 team couldn't guard dribble-penetration either. We stopped that play with tremendous frontcourt rotation. This team has good frontcourt rotation with Amile, not so good without him.

But, going further, Duke teams have rarely guarded dribble-penetration well on the perimeter. And in today's environment, with today's rules, I think very few teams in Division I guard dribble-penetration well on the perimeter. But there are a lot of good defensive teams out there, so they must deal with it somehow (probably often after the blow-by).



Grayson has been our PG for three games. In those three games, he has averaged 7.7 apg with a 2.6 a/to ratio.

For comparison:

In 2015, Tyus Jones averaged 5.6 apg with a 2.9 a/to ratio;
In 1992, Bobby Hurley averaged 7.6 apg with a 2.2 a/to ratio;
In 2001, Jason Williams averaged 6.1 apg with a 1.5 a/to ratio.

Also, even with all the injuries and the PG options that you lament, and even after our mediocre offensive showing tonight, our offense is ranked #7 in the country by Pomeroy. I think I can say with a fair amount of confidence that lacking a PG is not one of the top problems for this year's Duke team, and also that (at least so far) turnovers by Grayson are nowhere near one of our biggest problems, either (he had 3 tonight).



Yes, I agree -- you should give your tickets away to someone who will appreciate them.

I volunteer. I will sacrifice to watch the games from your seats in your stead. Won't even charge a fee.

TKG
01-11-2017, 06:09 AM
said the same thing to my husband about 10 minutes ago

Your husband's audition isn't going well? Sorry to hear :)

NashvilleDevil
01-11-2017, 06:35 AM
I have not read anyone's post. The game was depressing enough. So far this year has produced the most disappointing Duke team that I have followed in over 50 years. The injuries, the very poor defense, the over-hyped players, the lack of a point guard and the high expectations have all contributed to my obscene language and murderous thoughts that have been thoroughly unpleasant. Honestly we look terrible and I fear that if we play like this at Cameron I might boo the team. Someone take away my tickets before I hurt myself.

My only hope is that the season miraculously turns around; Amile is suddenly cured; the injuries move to our rivals; and our frosh learn proper defensive rotations. Honestly I could not have conceived losing to Va Tech and Fl State this season.

Stop the pity party. Give the tickets to someone who will appreciate them if you feel like you're going to boo a bunch of kids who are giving it their all and have faced a lot of adversity in this young season.

NashvilleDevil
01-11-2017, 06:37 AM
I've defended Grayson over and over and I am a die hard Duke fan but this is getting ridiculous. He isn't "righting his balance" there - the guy has a problem.

No. What's getting ridiculous is a one play out of hundreds gets scrutinized after the fact and espn tries to make it a thing.

slower
01-11-2017, 06:40 AM
Maybe coach K can call Roy and work out a trade for Nate Britt. Duke could have sure used him tonight!:)

Can we trade YOU for something? Magic beans, maybe?

luburch
01-11-2017, 07:07 AM
I thought Duke was going to lose heading into the game. No K or Amile and on the road against a top 10 team. Grayson was outstanding at distributing the ball, but he still has to remember to look for his own shot. Tatum needs to work on his shot selection. Take shots that are in rhythm and not forced. Inside play has to be better. Have to stop dribble penetration.

There's a lot to work on and still time to sort it out. I'm starting to get a little nervous that their might not be enough time for all the pieces to gel, but I'm holing out hope. Hope the team responds Saturday against a tough Louisville defense will say a lot.

weezie
01-11-2017, 07:48 AM
Can we trade YOU for something? Magic beans, maybe?

Excellent laugh to begin a day which will be a long one after a big fat L.

dukelifer
01-11-2017, 07:56 AM
I have not read anyone's post. The game was depressing enough. So far this year has produced the most disappointing Duke team that I have followed in over 50 years. The injuries, the very poor defense, the over-hyped players, the lack of a point guard and the high expectations have all contributed to my obscene language and murderous thoughts that have been thoroughly unpleasant. Honestly we look terrible and I fear that if we play like this at Cameron I might boo the team. Someone take away my tickets before I hurt myself.

My only hope is that the season miraculously turns around; Amile is suddenly cured; the injuries move to our rivals; and our frosh learn proper defensive rotations. Honestly I could not have conceived losing to Va Tech and Fl State this season.

The most disappointing team in 50 years? Wow. You do know what is happening, correct? This team has not been complete the entire year. For someone with your viewing experience- you would understand the importance of continuity and experience as a team.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-11-2017, 08:06 AM
I thought Duke was going to lose heading into the game. No K or Amile and on the road against a top 10 team. Grayson was outstanding at distributing the ball, but he still has to remember to look for his own shot. Tatum needs to work on his shot selection. Take shots that are in rhythm and not forced. Inside play has to be better. Have to stop dribble penetration.

There's a lot to work on and still time to sort it out. I'm starting to get a little nervous that their might not be enough time for all the pieces to gel, but I'm holing out hope. Hope the team responds Saturday against a tough Louisville defense will say a lot.

The team just needs to find its identity, and get healthy. Being a top 20 team with upside is not a bad thing. They have to keep searching.

There's too many really good shooters to write this team out of the title hunt just yet.

Channing
01-11-2017, 08:13 AM
I've defended Grayson over and over and I am a die hard Duke fan but this is getting ridiculous. He isn't "righting his balance" there - the guy has a problem.

to think anyone is coordinated enough to have malicious intent at full speed is ridiculous. It looks one way in slow motion, but you have to remember he was running full out in a reactionary play. He didn't line the guy up for a spear or anything like that. He just chased a ball out of bounds.

RepoMan
01-11-2017, 08:21 AM
Giles looks timid to me, like he's holding back. I have an ACL replacement. It gets in your head. I'm not sure he's gonna go all out this season, lots of $ in his future even if he falls from the lottery by playing soft to protect his knees.

Give me a break. Giles isn't playing great but to suggest he is deliberately "playing soft" is ridiculous. What are you, some sort of UNC troll. Oh wait . . . Seriously, go find some UNC friends to hang out with and take this trash out of here.

BobBender
01-11-2017, 08:25 AM
Looking like a "what might have been" season

With what the freshman accomplished in 2014-15, I had (perhaps) unreasonable expectations of running the table this year. Then, one by one, the nagging injuries started and I wrote off the non-conference schedule as not representative of what the team could be. Now, I'm admittedly down because it's going to be quite an uphill climb to reach our goals. And most troubling of all, I don't like the thought of this being the only year we have Harry G and Jason T, and very likely Grayson's last year. I need cheering up!

SueAxe
01-11-2017, 08:28 AM
to think anyone is coordinated enough to have malicious intent at full speed is ridiculous. It looks one way in slow motion, but you have to remember he was running full out in a reactionary play. He didn't line the guy up for a spear or anything like that. He just chased a ball out of bounds.

it also looks like one of the assistant coaches was pushing him, probably to keep them both from colliding. but still, if it were a duke coach, all hell would be breaking loose.

DukieInBrasil
01-11-2017, 08:41 AM
i give credit to the DBR front page writers for not bringing up the ref'ing disparity in this game. It was beyond obvious to me that there were 2 different games being called. One in which FSU could punch, shove, push, and hold Duke without a foul, and another in which if Duke merely bodied up an FSU player a foul was called.
Give credit to FSU, i guess, for knowing how to play physical w/o getting fouls called on them.
Still, why did Giles only play 10 minutes, ending the game with only 3 fouls? Why did Bolden only play 4, his only mistake was a travel? I would have thought that Capel would try to buy a minute or 2 here and there with some subs, given that FSU plays 12 guys a lot. Instead Kennard played all 40 and was worthless down the stretch.
FSU played dunk city on us, and it was embarrassing. I hope the players feel embarrassed enough to fight to not let that happen again.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-11-2017, 08:43 AM
it also looks like one of the assistant coaches was pushing him, probably to keep them both from colliding. but still, if it were a duke coach, all hell would be breaking loose.

The kid's a competitor, he was playing hard.

I saw it as a play where he was hustling. In that split second when his momentum carried him into the FSU bench, his competitive brain said.."get off me, I don't need no stinkin' help, I gotta get back out there".

Play on...

Troublemaker
01-11-2017, 08:47 AM
Many posters, and to a point, Coach K, have mentioned that due to injury issues, Duke is currently in October mode, which would mean that in March, Duke will be in January mode. I think most rationale Duke fans would take "January" mode during March Madness without hesitation.



There's a lot to work on and still time to sort it out. I'm starting to get a little nervous that their might not be enough time for all the pieces to gel, but I'm holing out hope. Hope the team responds Saturday against a tough Louisville defense will say a lot.

I think as long as there are no further disruptions (e.g. injury), Duke will be playing much better ball by the end of this month. Now, it may come even sooner, but I'm comfortable saying that within 20 days the team will be at a level that has Duke fans feeling good about the team. As long as there are no further disruptions. The freshmen need a consistent environment around them in order to develop efficiently. Ever since the UNLV game, that environment has been quicksand. First, Harry finally started playing and he's made nice strides but still has a long way to go, as this season is only his 2nd season of basketball in 4 years due to injuries. Second, finals and winter break broke up the regular schedule of practice and playing games. Third, Grayson got suspended. And finally, just when those first three issues were minimized or gone, Amile got injured. Quicksand. All of these things have hampered us in the past 6 games.

But if no more disruptions, we should ramp up pretty quickly from here on out. I think "October mode" is figurative, but even if you take it as more than that, Duke has historically ramped up quickly and played very good basketball in November and December. But I do think it's figurative and that all the summer and fall practices we already held weren't meaningless and will aid in our development.

jv001
01-11-2017, 08:47 AM
I've defended Grayson over and over and I am a die hard Duke fan but this is getting ridiculous. He isn't "righting his balance" there - the guy has a problem.

Give me a break, Grayson was going all out trying to save the ball. How many players moving that fast and sacrificing their body to save a ball would be able to not try to break their fall. I wish all our players had the heart that Grayson does. Yes, I can do without the other stuff/trips/kicks, etc. Even our old pal, Seth Greenburg, this morning on ESPN was giving Grayson a pass on that play.
Last night I saw a team that moved around like they were 90 years old. Unless some of them have the ball, they just don't react or move the same as they do when they are working for a shot. I don't know if they are not capable of moving faster or they just don't get Duke's system. The biggest flaws were on the defensive end. Poor rotation and we were really bad at stopping the dribble penetration. As for the latter, in this era of college basketball it's very hard to do that unless you can move your feet at the speed of light. Most of all, we missed Amile, our best communicator, best motivator and co-captain. We have some work ahead of us, if we want to achieve our goal of NCAAT champs. It can be done because I believe we have the players and coaches to make it happen. GoDuke!

UrinalCake
01-11-2017, 08:49 AM
The most disappointing team in 50 years? Wow. You do know what is happening, correct? This team has not been complete the entire year. For someone with your viewing experience- you would understand the importance of continuity and experience as a team.

It can still be a disappointing season even if there's a reason/excuse for it. 2012 was hugely disappointing because we lost Kyrie for most of the season. It's no one's "fault," but it's still disappointing to think about what might have been.

If you consider how high our expectations were for this year (not just Duke fans, but what everybody thought about our roster) relative to where we are now, I'd say it's one of our most disappointing seasons ever. We were supposed to steamroll the world and instead we have beaten nobody of note. Obviously the down years like 1995-1997 and the mid-2000's were disappointing for different reasons.

ChillinDuke
01-11-2017, 08:51 AM
I think they're even better than that. That is as deep and talented a team as you'll find out there. The only thing I feel that would hold them back from being a top 5/final four favorite kind of team is this:

Hamilton-coached teams just have a propensity for not valuing the ball, and also being notoriously unaware of time/score situations. If they take care of the ball and avoid stretches of real bonehead plays, they can beat ANYBODY, ANYWHERE - even if the team they're playing is a top-tier team having a good game. All the physical pieces are there, FSU's chances at an ACC title, FF, or championship rest on the "between the ears" part of the game.

Not really all that surprising to see that one get away from Duke. You're getting next to nothing from Bolden and Giles, Jefferson is out, Allen has seemingly struggled scoring the ball this year, multiple guys forced to play 36-40 min and press late (when they were gassed), and K is out. I know you guys are spoiled by the level of your program's success over the years, but if you take the names off the jerseys and just looked at the makeup of the teams and how things were going entering this game, no reasonable person would've picked Duke as a favorite to get a W.

If you're able to get Jefferson back healthy, avoid more injuries to key guys, and get Giles and Allen rolling, you'll still be playing at the end of March.

This is a great post, Wahoo. Really great.

And the bolded is excellent outside perspective. Very much agree and hadn't thought of it that way.

- Chillin

Troublemaker
01-11-2017, 08:53 AM
Give me a break. Giles isn't playing great but to suggest he is deliberately "playing soft" is ridiculous. What are you, some sort of UNC troll. Oh wait . . . Seriously, go find some UNC friends to hang out with and take this trash out of here.

Yes, my big issue with Wheat in this thread was his suggestion that Harry is purposefully playing soft to protect his $$$.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and Wheat's notoriously faulty "eye test" doesn't count.

I mean, I could definitely post GIFs of Harry ferociously going after rebounds, but I don't think that's necessary, right?

Not cool, Wheat.

sagegrouse
01-11-2017, 08:56 AM
I know I'm biased, but it looks to me like he was attempting to push off to get back on the floor, but the chairs took his legs out. Unfortunately public opinion is going to say different.

It looks totally like he was pushing the guy out of the way so the coach wouldn't get hurt. Good play, Grayson.

jv001
01-11-2017, 08:59 AM
i give credit to the DBR front page writers for not bringing up the ref'ing disparity in this game. It was beyond obvious to me that there were 2 different games being called. One in which FSU could punch, shove, push, and hold Duke without a foul, and another in which if Duke merely bodied up an FSU player a foul was called.
Give credit to FSU, i guess, for knowing how to play physical w/o getting fouls called on them.
Still, why did Giles only play 10 minutes, ending the game with only 3 fouls? Why did Bolden only play 4, his only mistake was a travel? I would have thought that Capel would try to buy a minute or 2 here and there with some subs, given that FSU plays 12 guys a lot. Instead Kennard played all 40 and was worthless down the stretch.FSU played dunk city on us, and it was embarrassing. I hope the players feel embarrassed enough to fight to not let that happen again.

Did you watch Giles and Bolden try to play defense last night. Their rotation or lack of was terrible. On one occasion, Harry could have stopped a drive to the basket, but he was not watching the ball/player coming down the court. He had his eyes on his man on the baseline and never saw the player going in all alone. However, I think we need to give Harry some slack, because he's really playing what would be his junior year in high school and it's been over a full season since he had in game action so to speak. The game was not lost on bad coaching or bad officiating. Duke played a terrible game against what I think might be a top five team. This team is no where near it's potential and it's not the players or coaches fault. It's just life. We've had some of the worst luck of any team I can think of. I'm praying that things begin to go our way quickly. GoDuke!

GGLC
01-11-2017, 09:01 AM
This is a great post, Wahoo. Really great.

And the bolded is excellent outside perspective. Very much agree and hadn't thought of it that way.

- Chillin

I can't spork Wahoo (...), so I wanted to second this publicly.

jv001
01-11-2017, 09:06 AM
I can't spork Wahoo (...), so I wanted to second this publicly.

I have your back and sporked Wahoo. It was a great post and pretty much summed up our season to date. Keep your heads up guys help is on it's way. GoDuke!

Ichabod Drain
01-11-2017, 09:14 AM
From the FSU assistant coach Dennis Gates:

https://twitter.com/coachdgates/status/819182695834062848

Wheat/"/"/"
01-11-2017, 09:17 AM
Yes, my big issue with Wheat in this thread was his suggestion that Harry is purposefully playing soft to protect his $$$.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and Wheat's notoriously faulty "eye test" doesn't count.

I mean, I could definitely post GIFs of Harry ferociously going after rebounds, but I don't think that's necessary, right?

Not cool, Wheat.

Just offered an opinion on my observation of his play. I'll give him credit, he's actually being brave, I'd have set out the whole year for a shot at millions.

Did you see the bounce in Issac's step last night? Similar player, and he was confident out there. Giles is not playing strong and confident, for whatever reason.

Troublemaker
01-11-2017, 09:18 AM
From the FSU assistant coach Dennis Gates:

https://twitter.com/coachdgates/status/819182695834062848

Thanks, here's his note for those who are click-averse:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C15SUCPXAAEHVkb.jpg

Dr. Rosenrosen
01-11-2017, 09:23 AM
Just offered an opinion on my observation of his play. I'll give him credit, he's actually being brave, I'd have set out the whole year for a shot at millions.

Did you see the bounce in Issac's step last night? Similar player, and he was confident out there. Giles is not playing strong and confident, for whatever reason.
Well, he had not played an actual game of basketball for 14 months. That might have something to do with it. It's not just confidence in his knee. It's getting back into the rhythm of actually playing competitive basketball. The last real games he played were essentially as a high school junior against other high school kids. And he barely got to adjust to the speed of the college game before entering ACC play. So, maybe, just maybe, he's still trying to get comfortable making the jump from playing against high school competition to playing in the toughest league in the NCAA while at the same time proving to himself that his knee is strong enough to compete at the level at which he used to compete.

jipops
01-11-2017, 09:32 AM
Over the last two seasons Duke is 22-3 with Amile. 17-11 without.

This stat does have its flaws though. Most importantly, a lot of these Amile wins were in the early part of the season against November and December level competition. There is no doubt we are a much better team with him, but how much better is still up for debate despite this stat.

TKG
01-11-2017, 09:33 AM
Thanks, here's his note for those who are click-averse:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C15SUCPXAAEHVkb.jpg

When can we expect ESPN/TMZ to put this on their front page and replace the story under the current headlines section?

jv001
01-11-2017, 09:35 AM
Just offered an opinion on my observation of his play. I'll give him credit, he's actually being brave, I'd have set out the whole year for a shot at millions.

Did you see the bounce in Issac's step last night? Similar player, and he was confident out there. Giles is not playing strong and confident, for whatever reason.

I think Harry is subconsciously protecting his knee. I've had a total knee replacement and I catch myself being overly protective of my right knee. I can only imagine how a college basketball player that's had the injuries Harry's experienced would react. The game has gotten more physical over the years. It's not the same as it was back in the Bob Verga-Mike Lewis days. Players are bigger, faster and more athletic. Young Mr. Giles is going to have to work very hard to get back to where he was as a talented high school player. I'm hoping it comes this season. GoDuke!

Wheat/"/"/"
01-11-2017, 09:36 AM
Well, he had not played an actual game of basketball for 14 months. That might have something to do with it. It's not just confidence in his knee. It's getting back into the rhythm of actually playing competitive basketball. The last real games he played were essentially as a high school junior against other high school kids. And he barely got to adjust to the speed of the college game before entering ACC play. So, maybe, just maybe, he's still trying to get comfortable making the jump from playing against high school competition to playing in the toughest league in the NCAA while at the same time proving to himself that his knee is strong enough to compete at the level at which he used to compete.

Certainly a possibility too.

jv001
01-11-2017, 09:37 AM
When can we expect ESPN/TMZ to put this on their front page and replace the story under the current headlines section?

I think we all know the answer to that question. ESPN has gotten into the top five list of things I detest. GoDuke!

CDu
01-11-2017, 09:40 AM
This stat does have its flaws though. Most importantly, a lot of these Amile wins were in the early part of the season against November and December level competition. There is no doubt we are a much better team with him, but how much better is still up for debate despite this stat.

This is a VERY important point. Duke is 6-3 against Power-5 schools (7-3 if you include Georgetown) with Jefferson in the lineup versus 12-11 without him in the lineup. Still a substantially better winning percentage, but a bit closer to reality than the 22-3 vs 17-11 comp.

superdave
01-11-2017, 09:41 AM
This team needs Allen on the floor, at the point guard position and on the defensive end. The team has an edge with him out there. His energy is pretty infectious. Not sure exactly why he sat the last few minutes, but I assume it was enough for Capel to be concerned even if Allen was walking off the court ok.

Jayson Tatum needs to be coached on shot selection. He's going full Kobe out there, shooting long turnaround 2;s, and you dont want to do that. He needs a post up game and to slash. I think he (Kennard, Allen, Jackson too) would have excelled in a slower pace with a more spread offense last night.

Duke should have played a little zone last night to slow the game down, and to force FSU to his jumpers. That would have been preferable to the layup line they had going at times.

After VT, I thought things would get worse before they got better. This was worse because we didnt come out flat, we showed up. We werent scared, we just couldnt sustain a high level of play in a big game. Our freshmen looked mostly like freshmen. This game showed how far we have to go. It's probably a good reality check, but there's a lot to work on.

bluenorth
01-11-2017, 09:43 AM
Clearly the players have areas that need improvement. One guy doesn't hustle back on D, another doesn't rotate to help, and so on. But there isn't a team in the country that doesn't have the same type of issues, where a player's shortcomings get examined and dissected. Perfection just isn't out there.

Right now this is a team that is in the building process. The growing pains are evident, and the FSU game won't be the last one where players look lost. For my money the biggest loss is having Coach K absent. Interim coaches just don't get the same attention/focus from the players, even someone with Coach Capel's credentials. Looking forward to the return of a healthy Coach K.

FadedTackyShirt
01-11-2017, 09:47 AM
From the FSU assistant coach Dennis Gates:

https://twitter.com/coachdgates/status/819182695834062848

Dennis Gates is a very good guy and will be a head coach in the ACC, Pac, or B1G sooner rather than later. Chicago native, graduated from Cal in three years, and named top graduating scholar athlete in the conference.

bluenorth
01-11-2017, 09:47 AM
Thanks, here's his note for those who are click-averse:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C15SUCPXAAEHVkb.jpg

Kudos to Coach Gates for making this clear. A classy move.

dukelifer
01-11-2017, 09:51 AM
It can still be a disappointing season even if there's a reason/excuse for it. 2012 was hugely disappointing because we lost Kyrie for most of the season. It's no one's "fault," but it's still disappointing to think about what might have been.

If you consider how high our expectations were for this year (not just Duke fans, but what everybody thought about our roster) relative to where we are now, I'd say it's one of our most disappointing seasons ever. We were supposed to steamroll the world and instead we have beaten nobody of note. Obviously the down years like 1995-1997 and the mid-2000's were disappointing for different reasons.

I thought he/she said team. I will give you season. Honestly, I am not sure why the high expectations. We had Jabari Parker and Rodney Hood- and still struggled on D and had a early NCAA exit. We had Austin Rivers and struggled. Ever the 2015 team took many games to get it going and had two excellent floor leaders. If not for some gutty performances after those first two league losses- not sure where that team would have been mentally. Folks have overvalued Freshman. They all have a steep learning curve and players that come back from injury are always behind. From day 1 when Tatum and Giles were out- there was a good chance that they would take time to work into the lineup. Giles is showing the rust and is still tentative. Bolden is also far behind. Like most guards, Jackson has made the transition better and he got to play early- but even he is coming back from injury. Yes the situation is disappointing, but not the team.

jv001
01-11-2017, 09:52 AM
Dennis Gates is a very good guy and will be a head coach in the ACC, Pac, or B1G sooner rather than later. Chicago native, graduated from Cal in three years, and named top graduating scholar athlete in the conference.

It was a class act on his part. I wish him well in life. GoDuke!

CDu
01-11-2017, 09:57 AM
As mentioned in the pregame thread I expected this to be a loss. FSU is a terrific basketball team, legitimately deserving of top-10 consideration. And they were playing at home, where they are REALLY tough. Their perimeter play can be as good as anyone in the country. They play a more athletic, more physical version of what we do on the perimeter: spread you out and attack off the dribble. We have better post players, but they don't need their post guys to be effective.

We did a very poor job handling dribble penetration. So of that was our bigs not hedging hard enough on high ball screens. Some was on perimeter guys not moving their feet well enough. Some was a combination. And some was just that FSU's perimeter guys are really good off the dribble.

One thing I've noticed is the way that FSU handles dribble penetration is different. They REALLY congest the lane with off-ball defenders. That led to more perimeter looks for us, but it tended to take away the lanes to the rim. We don't seem to do that. Whether that be scheme decisions or just poor off-ball rotation, it was very noticeable. When FSU's guards got into the lane, we had only a big there coming over to help. When Allen or Kennard or Tatum drove the lane, there were 2-4 help defenders waiting. Whether it is a schematic decision, or lack of awareness by some players, or lack of energy/hustle, that's a problem.

On the offensive end, we just didn't have enough weapons. Kennard and Tatum were relatively effective scorers, and Kennard was able to distribute some as well. Allen was very devoted to distribution, perhaps to the detriment of his shot. Of course, FSU's strategy of congesting the lane made Allen's drive game less available, so passing was probably a good thing. Jones did his job as a spot-up 3pt shooter. Giles had a couple of nice post moves but was generally quiet. Jeter looked completely gunshy whenever he got the ball. And Jackson simply didn't look dangerous on offense for most of his time. If we're going to rely on our perimeter guys to create the offense, Jackson can't be a nonfactor.

Jeter did a terrific job off the bench defensively. He got a lot of rebounds, a block or two. He was noticeably better than Bolden last night.

Tough to lose by double-digits, but without one of our two best defenders and our best post scorer, it's not shocking. Hopefully Jefferson heals quickly. If he's back, then Jeter and Bolden become spot-minutes guys, and it takes a ton of pressure off Giles. And it helps a ton with our communication on defense. Without him, the learning curve for the freshman and Jeter better be super quick.

GGLC
01-11-2017, 10:07 AM
Kudos to Coach Gates for making this clear. A classy move.

Indeed.

jv001
01-11-2017, 10:08 AM
As mentioned in the pregame thread I expected this to be a loss. FSU is a terrific basketball team, legitimately deserving of top-10 consideration. And they were playing at home, where they are REALLY tough. Their perimeter play can be as good as anyone in the country. They play a more athletic, more physical version of what we do on the perimeter: spread you out and attack off the dribble. We have better post players, but they don't need their post guys to be effective.

We did a very poor job handling dribble penetration. So of that was our bigs not hedging hard enough on high ball screens. Some was on perimeter guys not moving their feet well enough. Some was a combination. And some was just that FSU's perimeter guys are really good off the dribble.

One thing I've noticed is the way that FSU handles dribble penetration is different. They REALLY congest the lane with off-ball defenders. That led to more perimeter looks for us, but it tended to take away the lanes to the rim. We don't seem to do that. Whether that be scheme decisions or just poor off-ball rotation, it was very noticeable. When FSU's guards got into the lane, we had only a big there coming over to help. When Allen or Kennard or Tatum drove the lane, there were 2-4 help defenders waiting. Whether it is a schematic decision, or lack of awareness by some players, or lack of energy/hustle, that's a problem.

On the offensive end, we just didn't have enough weapons. Kennard and Tatum were relatively effective scorers, and Kennard was able to distribute some as well. Allen was very devoted to distribution, perhaps to the detriment of his shot. Of course, FSU's strategy of congesting the lane made Allen's drive game less available, so passing was probably a good thing. Jones did his job as a spot-up 3pt shooter. Giles had a couple of nice post moves but was generally quiet. Jeter looked completely gunshy whenever he got the ball. And Jackson simply didn't look dangerous on offense for most of his time. If we're going to rely on our perimeter guys to create the offense, Jackson can't be a nonfactor.

Jeter did a terrific job off the bench defensively. He got a lot of rebounds, a block or two. He was noticeably better than Bolden last night.

Tough to lose by double-digits, but without one of our two best defenders and our best post scorer, it's not shocking. Hopefully Jefferson heals quickly. If he's back, then Jeter and Bolden become spot-minutes guys, and it takes a ton of pressure off Giles. And it helps a ton with our communication on defense. Without him, the learning curve for the freshman and Jeter better be super quick.

I'm with you regarding Amile taking lot's of pressure off Harry. I believe Giles had to be nervous playing in a packed house against a team that's as athletic as any in the country. We tend to forget he hasn't seen road games like this. VT was hostile as well, but in my opinion not like the FSU crowd. I believe the announcer said this was the first sell out in a long time. Everyone wants to see Duke play and lose to their team. GoDuke!

flyingdutchdevil
01-11-2017, 10:10 AM
1) I was probably the most optimistic about our team during the pre-season. Between the returning talent, the incoming talent, and a fantastic coaching staff, I would be surprised if we were not the best team in the country and shocked if we weren't a 1-seed. Now? I am still optimistic, but I there is no way in hell we are a top 3 team and a 1-seed may be very challenging to obtain (given that 'Nova and Gonzaga are guaranteed 1-seeds. Also, UK, Kansas, Baylor, WVU, and UCLA are in much better shape than ANY ACC team to get a 1-seed. Welcome to world of being part of the best conference). My optimism is certainly down, but this has happened every year: Duke stumbles in the beginning of conference play only to finish strong (and likely not win the ACC reg season or the tournament). However, there is one big difference: there is no Coach K for the next 3 weeks. And that is not a scenario that I want right now. Because...

2) Can someone please inject some $#%& urgency into this team on the defensive end? Please? It's not just the penetration or the transition D, but giving up offensive rebounds under the rim are a problem as is this thing called communication. Yes, Amile Jefferson would help, but can Amile really help Giles and Tatum isn't hustling back on D? Is that Amile's job? Which brings me to...

3) I get that Giles is getting back in the groove. I really do. And, compared to most, my expectations of Giles aren't as high. But I have 3 huge issues with Giles's play, and it has nothing to do with "recovering" or "coming back": 1) get back on D!!! He often jogs back on D when there are 2-3 opposing players rushing their butts off on O. Giles has gotten burned so many times. And this has nothing to do with Giles's injury because, if you can't run at your full potential, you have no right playing competitive basketball. 2) stop trying to make tough plays. There was that two play sequence where Giles went for the insane alley-oop and completely missed and the really bad entry pass to Tatum. 3) Giles runs his mouth. A lot. You see it all the time after he scores. Well, you know what? I'm not sure you have much to run your mouth over. Yes, you were the ESPN #1 recruit. But there are easily 20 freshman in the country - including two on your own team - who are playing better than you.

4) Great to see Jeter back. His D was easily the best amongst the bigs. But he is so scared to shoot. Clearly confidence issues. Poor guy...

5) I have zeros issues with Grayson's play. In fact, I really liked it. I love his ability to drive and dish, dish, lead fast breaks, etc. It helps the team out cus he's the only one that can do this. Plus, he's single-handedly reviving Matt Jones's offensive game.

6) I thought Tatum had a good, typical Tatum game with better 3pt shooting: nice drives, okay defense, solid rebounding, too many turnovers.

7) I love Luke's game. I hope he continues doing what he's doing. Please do, because you are one of the few bright spots in what has been a frustrating season thus far. Which leads me to...

8) I am still optimistic despite being frustrated. The whole of this team is significantly less than the sum-of-the-parts, but I'm confident this will change.

superdave
01-11-2017, 10:15 AM
One thing I've noticed is the way that FSU handles dribble penetration is different. They REALLY congest the lane with off-ball defenders. That led to more perimeter looks for us, but it tended to take away the lanes to the rim. We don't seem to do that. Whether that be scheme decisions or just poor off-ball rotation, it was very noticeable. When FSU's guards got into the lane, we had only a big there coming over to help. When Allen or Kennard or Tatum drove the lane, there were 2-4 help defenders waiting. Whether it is a schematic decision, or lack of awareness by some players, or lack of energy/hustle, that's a problem.

On the offensive end, we just didn't have enough weapons. Kennard and Tatum were relatively effective scorers, and Kennard was able to distribute some as well. Allen was very devoted to distribution, perhaps to the detriment of his shot. Of course, FSU's strategy of congesting the lane made Allen's drive game less available, so passing was probably a good thing. Jones did his job as a spot-up 3pt shooter. Giles had a couple of nice post moves but was generally quiet. Jeter looked completely gunshy whenever he got the ball. And Jackson simply didn't look dangerous on offense for most of his time. If we're going to rely on our perimeter guys to create the offense, Jackson can't be a nonfactor.


Questions - If Matt Jones is not playing point, then he's a 3-and-D guy right? If that's his role, why was he not parked in the corner to stretch the floor? Also, we played right into FSU's plan to pack the lane and cut off drives and passes. How should we have addressed that at the half? I would think posting Giles and Tatum would help. I also think running our half court sets would cause the right switches and catch FSU on a bad matchup. We didnt seem to do that much.

CDu
01-11-2017, 10:23 AM
2) Can someone please inject some $#%& urgency into this team on the defensive end? Please? It's not just the penetration or the transition D, but giving up offensive rebounds under the rim are a problem as is this thing called communication.

These things are all related. Communication largely causes the dribble penetration. The dribble penetration is the primary reason we allow easy offensive rebounds (because it's MUCH harder to box out when guys are having to rotate and find a new man because someone was beaten. When we've maintained our defensive integrity, we've rebounded well. When there has been dribble penetration, we've allowed easy second-chance points.


3) Giles runs his mouth. A lot. You see it all the time after he scores. Well, you know what? I'm not sure you have much to run your mouth over. Yes, you were the ESPN #1 recruit. But there are easily 20 freshman in the country - including two on your own team - who are playing better than you.

I think Giles' talking is mostly just frustration on his part. I haven't had a problem with his attitude. Everyone preens a little when they make shots. I agree with you about his not getting back on defense. That seems to be a problem with all of the freshmen.

Freshmen defense seems to be the one piece of kryptonite for Coach K. He just hasn't figured out a way to get the freshmen (year in and year out) to lock in on that end. There have been the occasional guys who "get it" (Jones, Thornton, Winslow come to mind). But for the most part, our freshmen just aren't defense ready. This is one of the few areas that Calipari does a better job than Coach K. His freshmen-laden teams generally play better defense than ours.

But, every coach has chinks in the armor. Even the greatest. For whatever reason, he just hasn't yet figured out the solution to keeping a good defense year in and year out with more one-and-dones. Perhaps the combination of the one-and-done proliferation and the rules changes has thrown a combo wrench and it is just taking time to work it all out.


7) I love Luke's game. I hope he continues doing what he's doing. Please do, because you are one of the few bright spots in what has been a frustrating season thus far. Which leads me to...

Kennard is an absolute savant on offense. He just gets it. He's not the most athletic guy, but he just gets it done on that end. That being said, he's one of our worst defenders. He and Jackson are the guys most commonly at the center of a dribble penetration breakdown. And he frequently loses sight of his man off ball. He's a solid rebounder from the wing, but the rest of his defensive game is pretty poor. But, he has been one of the pleasant surprises this season on the offensive end.

flyingdutchdevil
01-11-2017, 10:26 AM
Congrats to FSU. Clearly a better team than Duke right now. They are the best team we've faced and they really have a lot going for them: great 3pt shooting, driving guards, excellent wings, solid D. They are missing a legit big man, but they were scoring from every spot in the paint last night (I mean, it's not that hard against Duke. We suck at inside D right now).

Also, I really like Ojo. The dude is hilarious to watch. Clearly not an NBA talent, but he's the kinda guy you want on your team: knows his role, plays insanely hard, works on his body non-stop... It's sad when a guy averages 5 points a game scores more than all your big men (6 points from Giles, Jeter, and Bolden vs 9 for Ojo).

CDu
01-11-2017, 10:31 AM
Questions - If Matt Jones is not playing point, then he's a 3-and-D guy right? If that's his role, why was he not parked in the corner to stretch the floor? Also, we played right into FSU's plan to pack the lane and cut off drives and passes. How should we have addressed that at the half? I would think posting Giles and Tatum would help. I also think running our half court sets would cause the right switches and catch FSU on a bad matchup. We didnt seem to do that much.

First of all, a "3 and D" guy isn't supposed to just camp out in the corner. You still have to move around with the offense depending on where the ball and where the other players are. If Jones just camps out in the corner, he then isn't in position to help with transition defense. And it is really easy to defend a guy who is stationary.

But Jones was quite regularly in position on the 3pt line to receive a pass from the ballhandlers. And he quite regularly received said pass. FSU's defenders moved well and recovered in some cases. In others, Jones took the 3.

As for different gameplan, we DID post Giles a few times. The problem was that Giles was so ineffective on the other end that we couldn't gain ground. And Jeter isn't a post option.

And Tatum was generally guarded by Isaac, who is taller and longer and just as athletic. So not exactly a good matchup to go to the post.

And, most importantly, it doesn't seem that our offense is built around post play. Our primary sets don't involve it. Our primary offensive weapons (especially without Jefferson) aren't great at it.

FSU just presents a really bad matchup for us without Jefferson. It's a tough matchup for us WITH Jefferson. But it is a really bad matchup without Jefferson.

jv001
01-11-2017, 10:31 AM
Congrats to FSU. Clearly a better team than Duke right now. They are the best team we've faced and they really have a lot going for them: great 3pt shooting, driving guards, excellent wings, solid D. They are missing a legit big man, but they were scoring from every spot in the paint last night (I mean, it's not that hard against Duke. We suck at inside D right now).

Also, I really like Ojo. The dude is hilarious to watch. Clearly not an NBA talent, but he's the kinda guy you want on your team: knows his role, plays insanely hard, works on his body non-stop... It's sad when a guy averages 5 points a game scores more than all your big men (6 points from Giles, Jeter, and Bolden vs 9 for Ojo).

That dude is big, really big. He looked to have great upper body strength. Must be on the weights really big time. They are the real deal this season. GoDuke!

flyingdutchdevil
01-11-2017, 10:35 AM
These things are all related. Communication largely causes the dribble penetration. The dribble penetration is the primary reason we allow easy offensive rebounds (because it's MUCH harder to box out when guys are having to rotate and find a new man because someone was beaten. When we've maintained our defensive integrity, we've rebounded well. When there has been dribble penetration, we've allowed easy second-chance points.

Agreed. But I don't just think it's communication. Transition D isn't communication moreso than getting your butt back. And our freshman are crazy lazy on that end...


I think Giles' talking is mostly just frustration on his part. I haven't had a problem with his attitude. Everyone preens a little when they make shots. I agree with you about his not getting back on defense. That seems to be a problem with all of the freshmen.

Freshmen defense seems to be the one piece of kryptonite for Coach K. He just hasn't figured out a way to get the freshmen (year in and year out) to lock in on that end. There have been the occasional guys who "get it" (Jones, Thornton, Winslow come to mind). But for the most part, our freshmen just aren't defense ready. This is one of the few areas that Calipari does a better job than Coach K. His freshmen-laden teams generally play better defense than ours.

Could not agree more. Coach K may be a better defensive coach with a veteran team, but I'll take Calipari defense 10 times out of 10 with freshman. I think part of it is also the personnel that Coach K recruits for OADs, though. Tatum, Ingram, Parker, Okafor, Kyrie, and Rivers were not known for defense, whereas Davis, MKG, and KAT, amongst others, were. But your point still holds: Calipari gets more D from his freshman than Coach K does from his.



Kennard is an absolute savant on offense. He just gets it. He's not the most athletic guy, but he just gets it done on that end. That being said, he's one of our worst defenders. He and Jackson are the guys most commonly at the center of a dribble penetration breakdown. And he frequently loses sight of his man off ball. He's a solid rebounder from the wing, but the rest of his defensive game is pretty poor. But, he has been one of the pleasant surprises this season on the offensive end.

At least Kennard tries and gets back on D. I agree he's a liability on D, but I look for effort more than production from a physically limited player like Kennard. Our freshman, on the other hand? No excuse for lack of effort.

CDu
01-11-2017, 10:37 AM
Also, I really like Ojo. The dude is hilarious to watch. Clearly not an NBA talent, but he's the kinda guy you want on your team: knows his role, plays insanely hard, works on his body non-stop... It's sad when a guy averages 5 points a game scores more than all your big men (6 points from Giles, Jeter, and Bolden vs 9 for Ojo).

Ojo didn't outwork our bigs, nor did he outplay them. He had ONE rebound in the game, and that was because Rathan-Mayes drove and drew our big in help defense, leaving Ojo as the only guy under the basket. All of Ojo's points came off that concept. The other 3 scores by Ojo came when the guard (almost always Rathan-Mayes) beat his man into the lane, drew our big, and threw an alleyoop to Ojo. It happened two other times too, but once Ojo missed the dunk and once Tatum tipped it away.

Ojo, quite plainly, stinks. Despite being absolutely massive, he doesn't rebound well, doesn't defend well, and can't do anything other than get hand-me buckets. He benefits from great guard/wing play being able to put the points on a platter for him. The one thing he does well is shoot free throws, and I'll give him credit for improving greatly in that area. But I'll take any of our four main bigs over Ojo. And I'd take both Jeter's and Giles' performance over Ojo's last night.

CDu
01-11-2017, 10:39 AM
Agreed. But I don't just think it's communication. Transition D isn't communication moreso than getting your butt back. And our freshman are crazy lazy on that end...

Could not agree more. Coach K may be a better defensive coach with a veteran team, but I'll take Calipari defense 10 times out of 10 with freshman. I think part of it is also the personnel that Coach K recruits for OADs, though. Tatum, Ingram, Parker, Okafor, Kyrie, and Rivers were not known for defense, whereas Davis, MKG, and KAT, amongst others, were. But your point still holds: Calipari gets more D from his freshman than Coach K does from his.

At least Kennard tries and gets back on D. I agree he's a liability on D, but I look for effort more than production from a physically limited player like Kennard. Our freshman, on the other hand? No excuse for lack of effort.

I definitely agree that transition D is one area where Kennard tries harder than the freshmen. And I agree that transition D is more effort than communication (still requires some communication to handle switches, but first and foremost you have to hustle to give yourself a chance). And the culprits there are the freshmen.

flyingdutchdevil
01-11-2017, 10:41 AM
Ojo didn't outwork our bigs, nor did he outplay them. He had ONE rebound in the game, and that was because Rathan-Mayes drove and drew our big in help defense, leaving Ojo as the only guy under the basket. All of Ojo's points came off that concept. The other 3 scores by Ojo came when the guard (almost always Rathan-Mayes) beat his man into the lane, drew our big, and threw an alleyoop to Ojo. It happened two other times too, but once Ojo missed the dunk and once Tatum tipped it away.

Ojo, quite plainly, stinks. Despite being absolutely massive, he doesn't rebound well, doesn't defend well, and can't do anything other than get hand-me buckets. He benefits from great guard/wing play being able to put the points on a platter for him. The one thing he does well is shoot free throws, and I'll give him credit for improving greatly in that area. But I'll take any of our four main bigs over Ojo. And I'd take both Jeter's and Giles' performance over Ojo's last night.

You probably have seen Ojo moreso than I have. But I'd take Ojo's performance yesterday over the performance of any of our bigs. That's not to say that our bigs are worse; on the contrary. But I liked Ojo's hustle, and you're right that he looks so much better because of excellent guard play. I just think that our big men performance was atrocious last night, and Ojo didn't make any mistakes.

BandAlum83
01-11-2017, 10:43 AM
Great stat. Reasonable objective data. He is that important
It is a somewhat misleading stat. Amiles games are disproportionately weughted toward the non-confenence schedule. Only 3 of his games the last 2 seasons are against ACC competition.

While not all cupcakes, clearly the non conference schedule has an order of magnitude reduction in difficulty of opponent as compared to the ACC schedule (which by the way contains all thew true away games as well)

CDu
01-11-2017, 10:49 AM
You probably have seen Ojo moreso than I have. But I'd take Ojo's performance yesterday over the performance of any of our bigs. That's not to say that our bigs are worse; on the contrary. But I liked Ojo's hustle, and you're right that he looks so much better because of excellent guard play. I just think that our big men performance was atrocious last night, and Ojo didn't make any mistakes.

I would say Ojo made mistakes. If you are 7'1", 290, and only get 1 rebound and no blocks in 13 minutes (and that one rebound was a gimme offensive rebound off a teammate's drive), you made mistakes. That isn't hustle. There is no excuse for a man that size to have 0 defensive rebounds in over 10 minutes of play. On the offensive end, Ojo "didn't make any mistakes" because he wasn't asked to do anything but set screens and roll to the rim.

Jeter had 6 rebounds, 2 blocks and a steal. I'd take that every day of the week and twice on Sundays over what Ojo did.

Want to pick an FSU big that DID outplay our bigs? Jarquez Smith. By far the shortest of their bigs (6'9"), he got 5 rebounds, 3 blocks, and a steal to go along with 8 points. He made plays. Ojo just took what was handed to him and mostly finished it.

CDu
01-11-2017, 10:50 AM
It is a somewhat misleading stat. Amiles games are disproportionately weughted toward the non-confenence schedule. Only 3 of his games the last 2 seasons are against ACC competition.

While not all cupcakes, clearly the non conference schedule has an order of magnitude reduction in difficulty of opponent as compared to the ACC schedule (which by the way contains all thew true away games as well)

Yes, taking away the lower-tier conferences, we are 6-3 against power 5 schools (7-3 against power 6 schools) with Jefferson and 12-11 without him. Still definitely better with than without him. But not quite as stark a contrast.

Ichabod Drain
01-11-2017, 10:57 AM
3) Giles runs his mouth. A lot. You see it all the time after he scores. Well, you know what? I'm not sure you have much to run your mouth over. Yes, you were the ESPN #1 recruit. But there are easily 20 freshman in the country - including two on your own team - who are playing better than you.
.

You know that's who Giles is right? That's how he was in high school and that's probably how he will be in the NBA. While I agree he doesn't have much to run his mouth about right now, I'm all for Giles doing whatever he needs to do to be comfortable and get his game back to the level it can be. Which is very high.

BandAlum83
01-11-2017, 11:08 AM
I've defended Grayson over and over and I am a die hard Duke fan but this is getting ridiculous. He isn't "righting his balance" there - the guy has a problem.

Unfortunately, I am leaning towards agreeing with you. :( it appears he pushes out his arms as he is falling, not looking like he is trying to brace his fall.

I'm not 100% on this, however. It is possible he was trying to brace his fall, but the coach's chair gave way leading to his arms outward movement.

At the time, there was no complaint lodged by the FSU coaching staff and no other kerfuffle, so maybe I've just convinced myself that there is nothing here.

Ugh. It's terrible that it even needs to be discussed.

Here's is bleacher reports current, NCAA men's BBALL headline in my email alert:



CBB's Latest: No. 1 Baylor Stunned More Grayson Drama?! No. 7 Duke Falls

kAzE
01-11-2017, 11:14 AM
2) Can someone please inject some $#%& urgency into this team on the defensive end? Please? It's not just the penetration or the transition D, but giving up offensive rebounds under the rim are a problem as is this thing called communication. Yes, Amile Jefferson would help, but can Amile really help Giles and Tatum isn't hustling back on D? Is that Amile's job? Which brings me to...

3) I get that Giles is getting back in the groove. I really do. And, compared to most, my expectations of Giles aren't as high. But I have 3 huge issues with Giles's play, and it has nothing to do with "recovering" or "coming back": 1) get back on D!!! He often jogs back on D when there are 2-3 opposing players rushing their butts off on O. Giles has gotten burned so many times. And this has nothing to do with Giles's injury because, if you can't run at your full potential, you have no right playing competitive basketball. 2) stop trying to make tough plays. There was that two play sequence where Giles went for the insane alley-oop and completely missed and the really bad entry pass to Tatum. 3) Giles runs his mouth. A lot. You see it all the time after he scores. Well, you know what? I'm not sure you have much to run your mouth over. Yes, you were the ESPN #1 recruit. But there are easily 20 freshman in the country - including two on your own team - who are playing better than you.

4) Great to see Jeter back. His D was easily the best amongst the bigs. But he is so scared to shoot. Clearly confidence issues. Poor guy...

All reasons that Amile Jefferson is the most important piece of this team by far, and we need him back to full health ASAP. The freshmen big men have to be better than this. There's no doubt Harry Giles has the talent to dominate, but as you mentioned, his effort level is really lacking at the moment. I also noticed as soon as he got in a bit of foul trouble, he almost completely abandoned trying to challenge shots in the paint. Jonathan Isaac looked much more like a top 10 pick last night.

Marques just doesn't seem to be making a whole lot of progress, and we haven't seen him on the floor enough in any case. At the start of the year, I believed he had a chance to be the starter at center at some point, but he's been an enigma thus far. He's probably still a first round pick due to his potential, but for the sake of this team, he needs to realize some of that potential in the next 2 months.

Shout out to Chase Jeter, though. No one can truly replace Amile, but Chase played his butt off last night and really gave us some great minutes on defense. I really wish we could have gotten him the ball a few times when he was open rolling to the paint and try to get him a dunk to boost his confidence, but the rest of the guys seemed really hesitant to dump it down low to him. Luke at one point was really trying to get him involved, but had a baseline wrap-around pass tipped out of bounds before it got into Chase's hands.

Amile's abilities to quarterback the defense, defend the rim without fouling, get to the free throw line, make plays from the post, and SECURE DEFENSIVE REBOUNDS are all huge holes in this team at the moment. Not saying that we would have won this game with him, because Florida State is really damn good, but there's no way we would have let them score 88.

Get well soon, Amile.

RepoMan
01-11-2017, 11:26 AM
Giles is not playing strong and confident, for whatever reason.

But you said the reaon was that he was sandbagging to protect his NBA money. You can't hide from the garbage you post.

left_hook_lacey
01-11-2017, 11:44 AM
Is it football season yet? (Ducks Head)

Kedsy
01-11-2017, 11:53 AM
When can we expect ESPN/TMZ to put this on their front page and replace the story under the current headlines section?

Well, the first person to respond to that tweet was Seth Greenberg, who said, "end of the conversation."

CDu
01-11-2017, 11:57 AM
Well, the first person to respond to that tweet was Seth Greenberg, who said, "end of the conversation."

Yeah, I have to give Greenberg some credit. After he went overboard initially, he's been very consistent in support of Allen since. A few days later he said we need to give the kid the support he needs and rally around him. He ignored the bait when Jay Williams whined about Allen's 1-game suspension. He blew off the discussion of a trip in the BC game. And he appears to be blowing this off.

There are a lot of times when Greenberg is way off the reservation. But he seems to have been a consistent voice of reason on this, at least in the non-immediate aftermath.

Owen Meany
01-11-2017, 11:58 AM
Unfortunately, I am leaning towards agreeing with you. :( it appears he pushes out his arms as he is falling, not looking like he is trying to brace his fall.

I'm not 100% on this, however. It is possible he was trying to brace his fall, but the coach's chair gave way leading to his arms outward movement.

At the time, there was no complaint lodged by the FSU coaching staff and no other kerfuffle, so maybe I've just convinced myself that there is nothing here.

Ugh. It's terrible that it even needs to be discussed.

Here's is bleacher reports current, NCAA men's BBALL headline in my email alert:

I would venture to guess that if 100 people were in the same position as Allen (running full speed into the bench/a group of people, off balance. etc) that 99 would flail their arms out for balance, to grab something, etc. ESPN slows these incidents down to super slow motion. The time from when Allen first saw the assistant to when he put his arms out was literally fractions of a second in real time. But when you slow things down tremendously and attempt to analyze every frame (looking for ill-intent) you can always make something out of nothing. Unfortunately, we don't always move our limbs in perfectly straight, perfectly efficient ways - particularly when diving for a loose ball at break neck speed. Allen plays basketball with reckless abandon - think back to the play that saved the National Championship game. I am amazed that he has not been injured more often. But, with a little imagination and a lot of dishonesty, ESPN can look at everything Allen does in super slow motion and create plenty of examples of "dirty play" where they don't exist.

DukieInKansas
01-11-2017, 12:12 PM
unfortunately, you're right....don't know how far this is going to run... (http://thespun.com/acc/duke/grayson-allen-fsu-florida-state-coach-shove-video)

Is there a link to this run at actual speed. Everything looks different when it is in slo mo.

billy
01-11-2017, 12:12 PM
I think I've seen all the posts in this thread, but is there any video of the play Grayson was injured on? All I saw was a dive to the floor after a loose ball. I have no idea of the injured body part (except for the Duke Bball quote attributed to him "I'm fine").

flyingdutchdevil
01-11-2017, 12:14 PM
I think I've seen all the posts in this thread, but is there any video of the play Grayson was injured on? All I saw was a dive to the floor after a loose ball. I have no idea of the injured body part (except for the Duke Bball quote attributed to him "I'm fine").

The reporting is actually pretty interesting. I've heard three body parts been listed on DBR and the media: groin (testes), wrist/hand, and head.

It mustuva been a helluva dive!

CDu
01-11-2017, 12:16 PM
The reporting is actually pretty interesting. I've heard three body parts been listed on DBR and the media: groin (testes), wrist/hand, and head.

It mustuva been a helluva dive!

The groin theory was based entirely on Cory Alexander's guess based on Allen's crouching down. The head (concussion) was me just guessing at a possibility as to why he didn't go back in (since the groin thing would obviously just be temporary). Neither of those was based on anything but speculation given that no video was available.

The wrist thing was reported by Adam Rowe and others after the press conference and appears to be the correct answer.

flyingdutchdevil
01-11-2017, 12:19 PM
The groin theory was based entirely on Cory Alexander's guess based on Allen's crouching down. The head (concussion) was me just guessing at a possibility as to why he didn't go back in (since the groin thing would obviously just be temporary). Neither of those was based on anything but speculation given that no video was available.

The wrist thing was reported by Adam Rowe and others after the press conference and appears to be the correct answer.

Head injury references:
http://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/story/grayson-allen-appears-push-coach-crashes-fsu-bench-011117
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/01/11/dukes-grayson-allen-appears-to-shove-a-fsu-assistant-on-a-dive-out-of-bounds/?utm_term=.ccdb1c3b29c6

Just two, but legitimate outlets.

CDu
01-11-2017, 12:25 PM
Head injury references:
http://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/story/grayson-allen-appears-push-coach-crashes-fsu-bench-011117
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/01/11/dukes-grayson-allen-appears-to-shove-a-fsu-assistant-on-a-dive-out-of-bounds/?utm_term=.ccdb1c3b29c6

Just two, but legitimate outlets.

Hadn't seen those, but they are technically just quoting an ESPN article. So not really independent sources. And the ESPN article appears to just the same sort of speculation I had (they called it an "apparent" head injury).

Ichabod Drain
01-11-2017, 12:27 PM
According to the Chronicle Grayson said after the game that he was fine and not injured.

billy
01-11-2017, 12:33 PM
I guess it's just the world we live in, but as the only REAL basketball story regarding Grayson it's amazing there's no more discussion of it

NSDukeFan
01-11-2017, 12:56 PM
Maybe coach K can call Roy and work out a trade for Nate Britt. Duke could have sure used him tonight!:)
Haha. Is that because you know Carolina would by default be getting someone better in that trade?

our team (sans Amile) need to do different on defense? Our frosh and soph bigs just aren't very good right now, especially in the P&R. We can't continue to press up with our guards, if our bigs can't guard the rim and rotate over. Poised, experienced guards will continue to do some damage against us.

What adjustments do Capel and K need to do with this squad?
Get healthy and practice would be my #1 suggestion.

I think they're even better than that. That is as deep and talented a team as you'll find out there. The only thing I feel that would hold them back from being a top 5/final four favorite kind of team is this:

Hamilton-coached teams just have a propensity for not valuing the ball, and also being notoriously unaware of time/score situations. If they take care of the ball and avoid stretches of real bonehead plays, they can beat ANYBODY, ANYWHERE - even if the team they're playing is a top-tier team having a good game. All the physical pieces are there, FSU's chances at an ACC title, FF, or championship rest on the "between the ears" part of the game.

Not really all that surprising to see that one get away from Duke. You're getting next to nothing from Bolden and Giles, Jefferson is out, Allen has seemingly struggled scoring the ball this year, multiple guys forced to play 36-40 min and press late (when they were gassed), and K is out. I know you guys are spoiled by the level of your program's success over the years, but if you take the names off the jerseys and just looked at the makeup of the teams and how things were going entering this game, no reasonable person would've picked Duke as a favorite to get a W.

If you're able to get Jefferson back healthy, avoid more injuries to key guys, and get Giles and Allen rolling, you'll still be playing at the end of March.
I agree that is a very solid basketball team that is not turning the ball over like typical FSU teams. I am not sure how far I would pick them in the NCAAs right now for the exact reasons you mention and that they haven't done it before. They certainly could this year.

I think he tripped/kicked the chair. :rolleyes:


unfortunately, you're right....don't know how far this is going to run... (http://thespun.com/acc/duke/grayson-allen-fsu-florida-state-coach-shove-video)
A very Singler-esque play. Awesome hustle by anyone else on the planet.

It's January 10th. This team will get right and they will not be a 7 seed in the tourney.
I am not a betting man, but that is a wager I would be pretty comfortable about, win or lose this weekend.

I have not read anyone's post. The game was depressing enough. So far this year has produced the most disappointing Duke team that I have followed in over 50 years. The injuries, the very poor defense, the over-hyped players, the lack of a point guard and the high expectations have all contributed to my obscene language and murderous thoughts that have been thoroughly unpleasant. Honestly we look terrible and I fear that if we play like this at Cameron I might boo the team. Someone take away my tickets before I hurt myself.

My only hope is that the season miraculously turns around; Amile is suddenly cured; the injuries move to our rivals; and our frosh learn proper defensive rotations. Honestly I could not have conceived losing to Va Tech and Fl State this season.

I have a bit of a different opinion from some and similar to some others. I was very impressed with Chase Jeter last night. He was coming off an injury and hadn't played for a couple weeks and seemed to be really solid on his defensive rotations, took a couple charges, hustled and had good position offensively. I would have liked for him to look to score a bit more when he got the ball inside, but on one occasion he made a great pass for a wide open corner 3 (one of our most efficient offensive plays). Zoubek-like. He is definitely an ACC caliber big man, in my opinion.
As Kedsy pointed out, statistically, the Grayson Allen point guard experiment is off to a good start. I was disappointed in a couple turnovers, but they were miscommunications between he and Matt and he and Luke, while playing against a good pressure defence on the road. I think he will be trying to figure out all year what the best balance is between setting others up and looking to score himself, but that's okay. At least when he is looking to be a facilitator, it helps the team's ball movement. I also feel Luke does a nice job of looking for his shot, but moving the ball if it's not there, usually after he has created a need for help defence. He also seemed very steady with the ball, even when pressured.
I am very encouraged by what I have been seeing from Tatum, except for a phantom spin move travel. He can't do everything he could do at the high school or AAU level but didn't have the full pre-season to figure that out. He is hugely talented and mostly took very good shots, though isn't as good as the upperclassmen at creating better opportunities for his teammates yet. Hopefully, that will also come. The blocked dunk didn't bother me that much as he was taking the ball hard to the hoop and got denied by a good defensive play. I think the team had to be thinking be strong when playing against that bumping, reaching defense.
I would have liked to have seen more of Giles and Bolden, but defensively, Jeter provided a lot more in this game. I think the rest of the team knows how talented Giles is and wants to get him involved so much. That was what I was thinking when I saw the missed oop attempts to him. I feel confident he will get there soon. I hope he and Bolden are strong enough, smart enough and have picked up enough on defensive rotations and communication to get the experience of playing solid minutes against another pressure defence team in Louisville. Win or lose, that will be another great experience for this team. I hope they can get it together enough to pull out a tough, gritty road win like we have seen Duke pull off so many times. As Coach K would say though, this is a different team and they haven't gone on the road and pulled out a big win yet. I would love to see it this weekend.

slower
01-11-2017, 01:23 PM
The groin theory was based entirely on Cory Alexander's guess based on Allen's crouching down.

That's DOCTOR Corey Alexander to YOU, buddy. :p

Corey - what a maroon.

whereinthehellami
01-11-2017, 01:29 PM
Lost in all of this talk about Duke still growing and becoming better is the fact that the opponents are to. The questions are can Duke get better quicker than other teams and does Duke have substantially more talent to close any gaps? I thought so a month ago but am now moving towards the camp that says there just isn't enough time.

CDu
01-11-2017, 01:52 PM
Lost in all of this talk about Duke still growing and becoming better is the fact that the opponents are to. The questions are can Duke get better quicker than other teams and does Duke have substantially more talent to close any gaps? I thought so a month ago but am now moving towards the camp that says there just isn't enough time.

I think it is fair to say that Duke has more room to improve than almost any other team (if not literally any other team) in D-1 college basketball. I say this for a few obvious reasons:
1a. We have more talent on our roster than all but maybe one or two teams. If any.
1b. Much of that talent resides in the freshman class, which inherently means we are less of a finished product in Nov/Dec/early-Jan than others.
2. We have dealt with more injuries than any top-tier team in the country this season, by far. Those injuries have been spread over the course of several months, but have prevented this team from finding its identity together.

Things looked really good in the 1.5 games with everyone back together and healthy (Tech and BC at home). Then Jefferson got hurt, and it thrust the freshmen into bigger roles. And we've once again shown warts as a result.

The question is simply two-fold in my mind:
1. How soon can Jefferson get back?
2. How quickly and how completely can the freshmen catch up?

There is still plenty of time for it all to come together. We are still more than 2 months from the NCAA tournament. And it can be as simple as a "light-switch" moment in some cases. As long as Jefferson is out, the young bigs are going to have their mistakes highlighted for them and that will give them an opportunity learn quickly. Hopefully they do learn quickly. And hopefully Jefferson comes back quickly and fully too.

I think if everyone gets/stays healthy by the end of January and if Tatum and Giles reach their potential, we will be VERY hard to beat in March. If either of those two things doesn't happen, we will be shaky against better teams. If neither happens, I fear we won't stand much of a chance to win the title.

grad_devil
01-11-2017, 02:04 PM
It looks to me like Grayson's head comes in contact with the defenders hip/leg/knee when he dives to the floor - see his head snap back? If you watch him after the dive, he stays down a bit longer than someone else, and - after the play is over - puts his hands on his knees, as if he's trying to clear his head.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BareMarvelousAsianelephant-size_restricted.gif

When Capel walks him off of the floor, it looks like he's a bit dazed. Caveat: I'm not a doctor, nor a recent tenant at Holiday Inn Express.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MasculineSoreArcticduck-size_restricted.gif

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-11-2017, 02:04 PM
I think it is fair to say that Duke has more room to improve than almost any other team (if not literally any other team) in D-1 college basketball. I say this for a few obvious reasons:
1a. We have more talent on our roster than all but maybe one or two teams. If any.
1b. Much of that talent resides in the freshman class, which inherently means we are less of a finished product in Nov/Dec/early-Jan than others.
2. We have dealt with more injuries than any top-tier team in the country this season, by far. Those injuries have been spread over the course of several months, but have prevented this team from finding its identity together.

Things looked really good in the 1.5 games with everyone back together and healthy (Tech and BC at home). Then Jefferson got hurt, and it thrust the freshmen into bigger roles. And we've once again shown warts as a result.

The question is simply two-fold in my mind:
1. How soon can Jefferson get back?
2. How quickly and how completely can the freshmen catch up?

There is still plenty of time for it all to come together. We are still more than 2 months from the NCAA tournament. And it can be as simple as a "light-switch" moment in some cases. As long as Jefferson is out, the young bigs are going to have their mistakes highlighted for them and that will give them an opportunity learn quickly. Hopefully they do learn quickly. And hopefully Jefferson comes back quickly and fully too.

I think if everyone gets/stays healthy by the end of January and if Tatum and Giles reach their potential, we will be VERY hard to beat in March. If either of those two things doesn't happen, we will be shaky against better teams. If neither happens, I fear we won't stand much of a chance to win the title.
I agree 100% that no other team has the ceiling that Duke does, and that any hand-wringing is premature. However, it does look increasingly likely that Duke's trajectory won't hit that ceiling before late February at the soonest. It is rather fascinating that our team has SO much talent and potential while still having so little margin for error.

Makes for a nerve-wracking season!

CDu
01-11-2017, 02:14 PM
I agree 100% that no other team has the ceiling that Duke does, and that any hand-wringing is premature. However, it does look increasingly likely that Duke's trajectory won't hit that ceiling before late February at the soonest. It is rather fascinating that our team has SO much talent and potential while still having so little margin for error.

Makes for a nerve-wracking season!

Such is going to be the reality with Duke teams in the one-and-done era until/unless we figure out a way to coach defense such that the freshmen figure it out sooner.

We used to be the school that started off better than everyone else but "faded" (actually, just didn't improve as much) down the stretch. That was when we didn't have guys leaving early. Now, we're the team that is constantly striving to reach its potential. Injuries screwed that up last year and have at the very least delayed things this year. But I think that this is, for better or worse, the way things are going to go. Obviously hopefully without the injuries mixed in - just the "taking time to figure it out" like in the 2015 season.

dahntaysdawg
01-11-2017, 02:17 PM
I think it is fair to say that Duke has more room to improve than almost any other team (if not literally any other team) in D-1 college basketball. I say this for a few obvious reasons:
1a. We have more talent on our roster than all but maybe one or two teams. If any.
1b. Much of that talent resides in the freshman class, which inherently means we are less of a finished product in Nov/Dec/early-Jan than others.
2. We have dealt with more injuries than any top-tier team in the country this season, by far. Those injuries have been spread over the course of several months, but have prevented this team from finding its identity together.

Things looked really good in the 1.5 games with everyone back together and healthy (Tech and BC at home). Then Jefferson got hurt, and it thrust the freshmen into bigger roles. And we've once again shown warts as a result.

The question is simply two-fold in my mind:
1. How soon can Jefferson get back?
2. How quickly and how completely can the freshmen catch up?

There is still plenty of time for it all to come together. We are still more than 2 months from the NCAA tournament. And it can be as simple as a "light-switch" moment in some cases. As long as Jefferson is out, the young bigs are going to have their mistakes highlighted for them and that will give them an opportunity learn quickly. Hopefully they do learn quickly. And hopefully Jefferson comes back quickly and fully too.

I think if everyone gets/stays healthy by the end of January and if Tatum and Giles reach their potential, we will be VERY hard to beat in March. If either of those two things doesn't happen, we will be shaky against better teams. If neither happens, I fear we won't stand much of a chance to win the title.

Great post and made me come off the ledge a bit.

Saratoga2
01-11-2017, 02:26 PM
Having scanned 11 pages of input, It is difficult to have anything new to add. One point that was not directly mentioned is that Fla St was subbing all throughout the game and the pace continued at a high rate, while some of our key players like Kennard and Tatum in particular remained in the game. Now our defense was not good from the outset, but our offense seemed to go cold in the second half. I suggest some of that was just fatigue. Hard to see that improving although Amile's presence would give us a lift.

The general comments about our big men are that Jeter looked better than Giles and Bolden and I concur with that. Jeter played hard while in but has little offensive presence and is not a good at gaining position and rebounding. Giles is smooth and seems to have a higher potential but it remains just potential. Bolden has a lot of ground to make up to be a center at DIV I basketball.

Frank didn't have his best game and all of the guys were out of Sync. When Grayson made a hustle play the others weren't in the right place to exploit it.

kAzE
01-11-2017, 02:35 PM
Frank didn't have his best game and all of the guys were out of Sync. When Grayson made a hustle play the others weren't in the right place to exploit it.

Frank has played very poorly in the two ACC road games. His performances in big games earlier in the season were actually pretty nice, and he was excellent in the two home ACC games. Not sure anyone else has had such a dichotomy in performance between home and road games. He's another guy who looks like a major work in progress, but has obvious potential.

I think people just need to realize that this is what freshmen are. We've been spoiled by the Tyus/Justise/Jah class, and even they weren't that good early in the ACC schedule. Give these guys time. Trust the coaches' ability to make it all work out.

English
01-11-2017, 02:52 PM
Having scanned 11 pages of input, It is difficult to have anything new to add. One point that was not directly mentioned is that Fla St was subbing all throughout the game and the pace continued at a high rate, while some of our key players like Kennard and Tatum in particular remained in the game. Now our defense was not good from the outset, but our offense seemed to go cold in the second half. I suggest some of that was just fatigue. Hard to see that improving although Amile's presence would give us a lift.

The general comments about our big men are that Jeter looked better than Giles and Bolden and I concur with that. Jeter played hard while in but has little offensive presence and is not a good at gaining position and rebounding. Giles is smooth and seems to have a higher potential but it remains just potential. Bolden has a lot of ground to make up to be a center at DIV I basketball.

Frank didn't have his best game and all of the guys were out of Sync. When Grayson made a hustle play the others weren't in the right place to exploit it.

I agree that fatigue likely played an important role in the second half disparity between to two teams' execution. In addition to FSU legitimately using a 12-man rotation, they were also making us earn every point on offense while they took advantage of a lot of gimme buckets through our defensive woes. Whatever the reason for those woes--fatigue, poor communication, poor rotation awareness, etc.--it certainly led to more fatigue for the good guys than the opposition.

However, I'd disagree with the second bolded assertion. I think it's clear, to my untrained eye anyway, that the formerly injured frosh are still rounding into game form and as the season progresses, the guys will get their stamina and wind back (or at least be able to play more extended minutes, barring the current crazy foul rates). Adding a starter back into the rotation, as you mention, will also go a long way. Increasing the ball movement, rather than relying on iso's and one-on-many play, would also contribute to mitigate wearing down our guys. A more smoothly executing, team-focused approach on both ends would be an enormous help to avoid end-game fatigue...although, as has been pointed out rightly throughout the thread, that relies on practice time as a complete unit.

Kedsy
01-11-2017, 03:02 PM
We've been spoiled by the Tyus/Justise/Jah class, and even they weren't that good early in the ACC schedule.

Yeah, in 2015, when we barely beat a bad Wake team in our first ACC road game, then got clobbered the next game @NC State, then got clobbered worse the next game at home against Miami, the post-game threads were rife with DBR posters declaring the team was a lost cause and that we would never win anything with so many freshmen in key roles. Some went so far as to point out the string of "failure" running from Kyrie to Austin to Jabari and then to the three 2015 frosh who had no chance of "getting it" before they left for their NBA careers, and to suggest that Coach K change his recruiting policy.

So I agree with you that the 2015 freshmen weren't that good early in the ACC schedule but I would amend your statement to say we were spoiled by that team's spectacular finish. If Utah had hit a couple more three-pointers in the Sweet 16, some people around here would still be calling for K to stop recruiting one-and-dones.

Sgt. Dingleberry
01-11-2017, 03:07 PM
Such is going to be the reality with Duke teams in the one-and-done era until/unless we figure out a way to coach defense such that the freshmen figure it out sooner..

So true. So, so true.

This year could go 2014 or it could 2015. It is going to depend on how the defense evolves as the year plays out.

BandAlum83
01-11-2017, 03:08 PM
I thought he/she said team. I will give you season. Honestly, I am not sure why the high expectations. We had Jabari Parker and Rodney Hood- and still struggled on D and had a early NCAA exit. We had Austin Rivers and struggled. Ever the 2015 team took many games to get it going and had two excellent floor leaders. If not for some gutty performances after those first two league losses- not sure where that team would have been mentally. Folks have overvalued Freshman. They all have a steep learning curve and players that come back from injury are always behind. From day 1 when Tatum and Giles were out- there was a good chance that they would take time to work into the lineup. Giles is showing the rust and is still tentative. Bolden is also far behind. Like most guards, Jackson has made the transition better and he got to play early- but even he is coming back from injury. Yes the situation is disappointing, but not the team.

Not to quibble, but lets talk about learning curves. Learning curves refer to a person's ability to learn over time. Passage of time is expressed over the x or horizontal axis. time increases as you go further ti the right.

Learning, or the amount of learning realized, is expressed on the y, or vertical access. As learning is increased, one moves up the y axis. So if someone takes a long time to learn something, they posses a flat or non-steep learning curve.

A quick learner posses a steep learning curve.

So to say "They all have a steep learning curve" in the context you did would imply that all Freshmen are quick learners and is direct opposition to the point you are trying to make.

Tatum, after only 9 games played, appears to have a fairly steep learning curve. Bolden's appears, at least at the moment, to be pretty flat.

BandAlum83
01-11-2017, 03:17 PM
I would say Ojo made mistakes. If you are 7'1", 290, and only get 1 rebound and no blocks in 13 minutes (and that one rebound was a gimme offensive rebound off a teammate's drive), you made mistakes. That isn't hustle. There is no excuse for a man that size to have 0 defensive rebounds in over 10 minutes of play. On the offensive end, Ojo "didn't make any mistakes" because he wasn't asked to do anything but set screens and roll to the rim.

Jeter had 6 rebounds, 2 blocks and a steal. I'd take that every day of the week and twice on Sundays over what Ojo did.

Want to pick an FSU big that DID outplay our bigs? Jarquez Smith. By far the shortest of their bigs (6'9"), he got 5 rebounds, 3 blocks, and a steal to go along with 8 points. He made plays. Ojo just took what was handed to him and mostly finished it.

And at least 2 charges taken

Tripping William
01-11-2017, 03:25 PM
Yeah, in 2015, when we barely beat a bad Wake team in our first ACC road game, then got clobbered the next game @NC State, then got clobbered worse the next game at home against Miami, the post-game threads were rife with DBR posters declaring the team was a lost cause and that we would never win anything with so many freshmen in key roles. Some went so far as to point out the string of "failure" running from Kyrie to Austin to Jabari and then to the three 2015 frosh who had no chance of "getting it" before they left for their NBA careers, and to suggest that Coach K change his recruiting policy.

So I agree with you that the 2015 freshmen weren't that good early in the ACC schedule but I would amend your statement to say we were spoiled by that team's spectacular finish. If Utah had hit a couple more three-pointers in the Sweet 16, some people around here would still be calling for K to stop recruiting one-and-dones.

2-2 in conference play, coming off a 16-point loss to a team from Florida, and heading to Louisville for a Saturday afternoon game. Sounds very, very familiar.

dukelifer
01-11-2017, 03:32 PM
Not to quibble, but lets talk about learning curves. Learning curves refer to a person's ability to learn over time. Passage of time is expressed over the x or horizontal axis. time increases as you go further ti the right.

Learning, or the amount of learning realized, is expressed on the y, or vertical access. As learning is increased, one moves up the y axis. So if someone takes a long time to learn something, they posses a flat or non-steep learning curve.

A quick learner posses a steep learning curve.

So to say "They all have a steep learning curve" in the context you did would imply that all Freshmen are quick learners and is direct opposition to the point you are trying to make.

Tatum, after only 9 games played, appears to have a fairly steep learning curve. Bolden's appears, at least at the moment, to be pretty flat.

One way to look at it. The other way is what do they need to learn to be effective defenders quickly in K's system. They have a lot to learn in a short time (as fans have no patience)- hence a steep learning curve. If we are willing to give time, they will eventually learn what they need to learn.

Sgt. Dingleberry
01-11-2017, 03:38 PM
2-2 in conference play, coming off a 16-point loss to a team from Florida, and heading to Louisville for a Saturday afternoon game. Sounds very, very familiar.

Yep. Didn't Jefferson have a huge game?

BandAlum83
01-11-2017, 03:40 PM
One way to look at it. The other way is what do they need to learn to be effective defenders quickly in K's system. They have a lot to learn in a short time (as fans have no patience)- hence a steep learning curve. If we are willing to give time, they will eventually learn what they need to learn.

We are looking at it the same way if you mean to say they NEED a steep learning curve in order to keep up or play. But to say (in reference to Freshmen) "they all have a steep learning curve" is not accurate. If someone said this to me in a conversation, I would most definitely think the person either misspoke, or didn't know what a learning curve is.

Tripping William
01-11-2017, 03:41 PM
Yep. Didn't Jefferson have a huge game?

19 points and 7 boards. *sigh*

mgtr
01-11-2017, 03:41 PM
Yeah, in 2015, when we barely beat a bad Wake team in our first ACC road game, then got clobbered the next game @NC State, then got clobbered worse the next game at home against Miami, the post-game threads were rife with DBR posters declaring the team was a lost cause and that we would never win anything with so many freshmen in key roles. Some went so far as to point out the string of "failure" running from Kyrie to Austin to Jabari and then to the three 2015 frosh who had no chance of "getting it" before they left for their NBA careers, and to suggest that Coach K change his recruiting policy.

So I agree with you that the 2015 freshmen weren't that good early in the ACC schedule but I would amend your statement to say we were spoiled by that team's spectacular finish. If Utah had hit a couple more three-pointers in the Sweet 16, some people around here would still be calling for K to stop recruiting one-and-dones.

Excellent post! I was getting close to joining the chicken littles, but your post caused me to rethink that position. Thanks.

Chard
01-11-2017, 03:43 PM
The team just needs to find its identity, and get healthy. Being a top 20 team with upside is not a bad thing. They have to keep searching.

There's too many really good shooters to write this team out of the title hunt just yet.

It takes a UNC fan to actually come up with some decent perspective (not that there wasn't some from some clear heads in the thread already).

I'd take it easy on Wheat. He's right a good amount of the time and the ribbing isn't up to par with what we'd get from most UNC types. Heck, I'd say Wheat is a fan of Duke basketball based on how much he watches.

Enjoy the ride, folks. Jezz. The freshmen will learn. They're freshmen for crying out loud. Duke looked good except for the small stretch of ridiculous turnovers mid second half that broke the game open for FSU. When the freshmen are shown that stretch in film study, they'll work it out and hopefully not do that again. Top 10 team on their home floor in early January with a bunch of freshmen, HOF Coach sidelined and Amile the wonder forward injured again? Yeah, tough draw when you factor the crazy season Duke has already had.

Wander
01-11-2017, 03:48 PM
Yeah, in 2015, when we barely beat a bad Wake team in our first ACC road game, then got clobbered the next game @NC State, then got clobbered worse the next game at home against Miami, the post-game threads were rife with DBR posters declaring the team was a lost cause and that we would never win anything with so many freshmen in key roles. Some went so far as to point out the string of "failure" running from Kyrie to Austin to Jabari and then to the three 2015 frosh who had no chance of "getting it" before they left for their NBA careers, and to suggest that Coach K change his recruiting policy.

So I agree with you that the 2015 freshmen weren't that good early in the ACC schedule but I would amend your statement to say we were spoiled by that team's spectacular finish. If Utah had hit a couple more three-pointers in the Sweet 16, some people around here would still be calling for K to stop recruiting one-and-dones.

If the lesson of 2015 is just that teams, especially young teams, can get better, sure. But I worry there are two factors that are going to make this year tougher than the 2015 improvement. One is that we have a tougher road to get a 1 seed, because the 2015 team played a much tougher schedule (up to this point in the season) and had an excellent signature win on the road at Wisconsin. In contrast, our current team is still looking for a great win.

The second factor is obviously the injuries. I have zero criticisms about any tactical decisions by the coaches or effort level by any player. They're all doing a great job and trying their hardest. I just worry that all the injuries may ultimately set us too far back.

None of this means we can't become national champions, but I think the hill is steeper than 2015, mainly because of injuries.

flyingdutchdevil
01-11-2017, 03:50 PM
If the lesson of 2015 is just that teams, especially young teams, can get better, sure. But I worry there are two factors that are going to make this year tougher than the 2015 improvement. One is that we have a tougher road to get a 1 seed, because the 2015 team played a much tougher schedule (up to this point in the season) and had an excellent signature win on the road at Wisconsin. In contrast, our current team is still looking for a great win.

The second factor is obviously the injuries. I have zero criticisms about any tactical decisions by the coaches or effort level by any player. They're all doing a great job and trying their hardest. I just worry that all the injuries may ultimately set us too far back.

None of this means we can't become national champions, but I think the hill is steeper than 2015, mainly because of injuries.

I would treat Rasheed's situation as a season-ending injury. Duke can get through it. They will.

But you're right about the 1-seed. That will be very, very, very hard to get.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-11-2017, 03:50 PM
...On the offensive end, Ojo "didn't make any mistakes" because he wasn't asked to do anything but set screens and roll to the rim.


Statements like this is where your analysis consistently goes wrong for me...you don't seem to value players that do the dirty work and lay the foundation for others to do their thing.

I thought he was pretty quick footed and set some massive high screens for as big as he is and that allowed FSU to turn the corner on Duke on drives when he was in. His presence inside also altered several shots at the rim.

His play impacted Duke more than you seem to want to acknowledge.

dukelifer
01-11-2017, 03:53 PM
We are looking at it the same way if you mean to say they NEED a steep learning curve in order to keep up or play. But to say (in reference to Freshmen) "they all have a steep learning curve" is not accurate. If someone said this to me in a conversation, I would most definitely think the person either misspoke, or didn't know what a learning curve is.

I see- this is a term that has a typical (colloquial) use and a technical use. I was not using it correctly in a technical sense. Learn something every day.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-11-2017, 04:04 PM
It takes a UNC fan to actually come up with some decent perspective (not that there wasn't some from some clear heads in the thread already).

I'd take it easy on Wheat. He's right a good amount of the time and the ribbing isn't up to par with what we'd get from most UNC types. Heck, I'd say Wheat is a fan of Duke basketball based on how much he watches.

Enjoy the ride, folks. Jezz. The freshmen will learn. They're freshmen for crying out loud. Duke looked good except for the small stretch of ridiculous turnovers mid second half that broke the game open for FSU. When the freshmen are shown that stretch in film study, they'll work it out and hopefully not do that again. Top 10 team on their home floor in early January with a bunch of freshmen, HOF Coach sidelined and Amile the wonder forward injured again? Yeah, tough draw when you factor the crazy season Duke has already had.

I am a fan of Duke basketball, have no problem admitting it. I probably follow Duke closer than 90% of Duke fans.

I'm just a bigger UNC fan and I would like to see UNC beat Duke every time. I'm all about what happens on the court.

My personal enjoyment comes from breaking down the players skills, and how the two teams, with polar opposite playing styles, are able to impose their will on others...or not.

toughbuff1
01-11-2017, 04:07 PM
I am a fan of Duke basketball, have no problem admitting it. I probably follow Duke closer than 90% of Duke fans.

I'm just a bigger UNC fan and I would like to see UNC beat Duke every time. I'm all about what happens on the court.

My personal enjoyment comes from breaking down the players skills, and how the two teams, with polar opposite playing styles, are able to impose their will on others...or not.

If that's true, then why do you feel the need to come on here and gloat?


C'mon...have a sense of humor. If I can keep one after all the grief I get here, surely you can too every now and then.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-11-2017, 04:07 PM
But you said the reaon was that he was sandbagging to protect his NBA money. You can't hide from the garbage you post.

Let's not create any more fake news than is already out there...

I actually said..."Giles looks timid to me, like he's holding back. I have an ACL replacement. It gets in your head. I'm not sure he's gonna go all out this season, lots of $ in his future even if he falls from the lottery by playing soft to protect his knees."

Bob Green
01-11-2017, 04:12 PM
Let's keep it civil folks. No need to attack each other. We are all mature and intelligent so let's discuss/dissect the posts not the posters. Thanks! :cool:

Wheat/"/"/"
01-11-2017, 04:15 PM
If that's true, then why do you feel the need to come on here and gloat?

I don't gloat...I just have a habit of telling it like it is...or at least as I see it. If it follows the Duke party line, I'll say it, if it doesn't, I'll say it. I'm OK with my own opinion, and others.

I always try to be respectful here, but I know I also tend to respond in the tone I'm spoken to and it gets me negative feedback sometimes, because it can get plenty rude. Nobody ever thinks about what was said to me in the previous post to generate my reply.

If it's particularly nasty or repetitive, I try to ignore it. Some days I'm better at that than others.

Whatever, I can handle it.

Wahoo2000
01-11-2017, 04:26 PM
Not to quibble, but lets talk about learning curves. Learning curves refer to a person's ability to learn over time. Passage of time is expressed over the x or horizontal axis. time increases as you go further ti the right.

Learning, or the amount of learning realized, is expressed on the y, or vertical access. As learning is increased, one moves up the y axis. So if someone takes a long time to learn something, they posses a flat or non-steep learning curve.

A quick learner posses a steep learning curve.

So to say "They all have a steep learning curve" in the context you did would imply that all Freshmen are quick learners and is direct opposition to the point you are trying to make.

Tatum, after only 9 games played, appears to have a fairly steep learning curve. Bolden's appears, at least at the moment, to be pretty flat.

I'd quibble with that as I think the vast majority of "learning" comes on the court in game situations. Of course the guys have to perform/show in practice that they should be given minutes, but the one thing I've learned in recent years based on our guys' (UVA's) progress - SPECIFICALLY on defense - is that there is NO substitute for in-game experience. I think you'd have to let Bolden get at least a couple hundred minutes on the court before you can reasonably draw any conclusions about his learning curve.

CDu
01-11-2017, 04:27 PM
Statements like this is where your analysis consistently goes wrong for me...you don't seem to value players that do the dirty work and lay the foundation for others to do their thing.

I thought he was pretty quick footed and set some massive high screens for as big as he is and that allowed FSU to turn the corner on Duke on drives when he was in. His presence inside also altered several shots at the rim.

His play impacted Duke more than you seem to want to acknowledge.

First, it's usually best to not guess what someone you don't know values and what he/she doesn't. So, respectfully, don't tell me what I value and don't. Because in this case you are quite wrong about what I value and what I don't value (as anyone who has followed my support of Matt Jones will surely tell you).

I completely disagree with your assessment on Ojo's impact on the game. And both the individul box score and plus/minus support my view and disagree with yours. FSU was outscored by 3 points in the 13 minutes Ojo played. They outscored us by 19 in the 27 minutes he sat. So Ojo's "value" didn't show up in his stats, nor did it show up in the team's performance with him on the floor. Hmmm...

FSU's performance was MUCH better when Ojo wasn't in the game. They were MUCH better when Jarquez Smith (their undersized center) was in the game (+25 in 22 minutes with Smith in, -9 in 18 minutes with Smith out). Smith was the one doing the little things successfully for the 'Noles, not Ojo. Coincidentally enough, Smith was also appearing in the stat sheet more too.

And I'll leave it at that.

Wahoo2000
01-11-2017, 04:31 PM
Yeah, in 2015, when we barely beat a bad Wake team in our first ACC road game, then got clobbered the next game @NC State, then got clobbered worse the next game at home against Miami, the post-game threads were rife with DBR posters declaring the team was a lost cause and that we would never win anything with so many freshmen in key roles. Some went so far as to point out the string of "failure" running from Kyrie to Austin to Jabari and then to the three 2015 frosh who had no chance of "getting it" before they left for their NBA careers, and to suggest that Coach K change his recruiting policy.

So I agree with you that the 2015 freshmen weren't that good early in the ACC schedule but I would amend your statement to say we were spoiled by that team's spectacular finish. If Utah had hit a couple more three-pointers in the Sweet 16, some people around here would still be calling for K to stop recruiting one-and-dones.

Absolutely right, but such is the nature of sports. The tournament is just such a small sample size. I wish people would place a higher emphasis on regular season results when evaluating the performance of a player/team/coach, at least until the sample size of the postseason is at least the size of one single regular season (30 or so games played). Unfortunately, that's not the world we live in and it probably leads to far too many rash decisions both in fanbases and in athletic departments (in NCAA bball or any other big $ sport - especially professional leagues).

Steven43
01-11-2017, 04:37 PM
Yep. Well played - by you and the noles. They took dunks and we shot jumpers. That's a losing formula. That had to be a top ten worst effort as measured by ' Dunks made by opponent'. If there were such a stat that would be a possible number one (meaning worst ever). I have never seen so much penetration and dunk via lob or put back.

Duke misses Amile. But it would have been tough even with him.

That was an as whooping and we deserved it!!! Those are some freajing nasty athletes in the post for fsu. Even when they didn't lob it for an alley oop they rebounded and jumped for an easy slam. Our guys looked pedestrian by comparison. Couldn't stop a. Dribble penetration (which has nothing to do w Amile at the outset, not until D rotation) ... And then b. FSU looked like an NBA team athletically compared to us - blocking Tatum and Jeter like we were a joke.

That's worrisome. I think fsu is seriously legitimate but I do think the dribble penetration issue is a big issue. There will be other top teams just as fast on the perimeter.
Duke's defense has a not-too-distant history of getting destroyed in some big games. Did you happen to watch the 2008 tournament game vs. WVU? How about the 2009 tournament vs. Villanova? 2011 tournament vs. Arizona? 2013 tournament vs. Louisville? Miami at Duke 2015? This happens to Duke once or twice pretty much every year. Not sure if it's the defensive system or what, but it's not uncommon.

jimmymax
01-11-2017, 04:44 PM
I can't believe Capel gets any grief for this loss. The countless dunks, layups, put-backs & second chances were the problem. The Duke offense was good, though sometimes struggled just to pass the ball around the perimeter, and when the deficit was sizable there was a bit of "1-on-FSU". I chalk that up to showing heart. To me it was the defense and rebounding that were atrocious. I don't know if this is what is preached in practice, but pulling five guys out to the three point line to apply pressure needlessly far out and leaving no one in the lane did not work. And the trademark constant defensive switching may not be a good idea against quicker (any) teams. I don't care how well you "communicate". There was some zone mixed in, which I do not recall during the lousy 2nd half against BC, but I think the whole defensive scheme needs a tune-up. Duke used to be a defense-first team and used to "generate offense from our defense". Those easy transition buckets seem like a long time ago.

Wahoo2000
01-11-2017, 04:59 PM
I can't believe Capel gets any grief for this loss. The countless dunks, layups, put-backs & second chances were the problem. The Duke offense was good, though sometimes struggled just to pass the ball around the perimeter, and when the deficit was sizable there was a bit of "1-on-FSU". I chalk that up to showing heart. To me it was the defense and rebounding that were atrocious. I don't know if this is what is preached in practice, but pulling five guys out to the three point line to apply pressure needlessly far out and leaving no one in the lane did not work. And the trademark constant defensive switching may not be a good idea against quicker (any) teams. I don't care how well you "communicate". There was some zone mixed in, which I do not recall during the lousy 2nd half against BC, but I think the whole defensive scheme needs a tune-up. Duke used to be a defense-first team and used to "generate offense from our defense". Those easy transition buckets seem like a long time ago.

Duke used to employ a much more experienced lineup as well. Good team defense is a product of chemistry and experience - things that take time. Since adopting a more heavily "one and done" reliant roster, Duke's defensive prowess has dropped (understandably). The hope each year seems to be twofold:
1) The offensive talent and ability of the new recruits can overcome or at least mitigate some of the defensive deficiencies
2) That by the time the postseason rolls around, the team has gained enough experience playing together to be able to perform defensively at a MUCH higher level than you may see in Dec/Jan.

I think that as long as you have multiple freshmen in your core lineup, you're always going to have defensive issues early in the season, and early in the conference schedule as those guys have to adjust to playing on the road and also vs a much higher level of competition.

rsvman
01-11-2017, 05:06 PM
The zone was very effective in the first half and allowed us to come back from a 7-point deficit to a slight lead, IIRC. On about the 4th or 5th possession of our zone, one of the Fl State guys hit a 3 and we were back to man.

I think we should have gone to the zone intermittently during the second half, too, to limit penetration since our defensive rotations were not up to snuff. Upthread Tripping William pointed out the similarities to 2015; losing 2 of 4 and heading to Louisville for a Saturday game. I'm sure you all remember what happened that day? We played 2-3 zone the entire game and dared Louisville to beat us with the jump shot. They couldn't, and the trajectory of the season pivoted.

Interestingly, we won the National Championship through hard-nosed pressure man-to-man defense, but we got through a few games in the middle with a 2-3 zone. I think now is the time to resurrect the zone, not necessarily for an entire game like we did in 2015, but at least intermittently. I really wish we had tried it some in the second half last night.

We have time, but losing can sometimes breed losing. We really could use a shot in the arm, as they say. A victory of Louisville away from the confines of Cameron would provide that. In 2015 K understood that we needed the victory there, and set about to get it by hook or by crook. Which meant abandoning his entire defensive philosophy, at least for one game. I think we need to reach into our bag of tricks again and try to procure the victory on Saturday. See if we can get this thing turned around.

jimmymax
01-11-2017, 05:07 PM
Good points all Wahoo2000.

Devilwin
01-11-2017, 05:07 PM
Where in the heck do you live. Here in NC it's January 10th. Way too much season left to write this squad off. GoDuke!

I was referring to how our timeline for greatness keeps getting pushed out...

CDu
01-11-2017, 05:07 PM
Duke used to employ a much more experienced lineup as well. Good team defense is a product of chemistry and experience - things that take time. Since adopting a more heavily "one and done" reliant roster, Duke's defensive prowess has dropped (understandably). The hope each year seems to be twofold:
1) The offensive talent and ability of the new recruits can overcome or at least mitigate some of the defensive deficiencies
2) That by the time the postseason rolls around, the team has gained enough experience playing together to be able to perform defensively at a MUCH higher level than you may see in Dec/Jan.

I think that as long as you have multiple freshmen in your core lineup, you're always going to have defensive issues early in the season, and early in the conference schedule as those guys have to adjust to playing on the road and also vs a much higher level of competition.

Yep. Unless Coach K changes how he coaches defense, or unless he stops recruiting one-and-dones (which would be dumb), our teams are going to go through growing pains early in the season. It will be a race to get the freshmen where they need to be by season's end.

Kedsy
01-11-2017, 05:28 PM
Duke used to be a defense-first team and used to "generate offense from our defense". Those easy transition buckets seem like a long time ago.

Yeah, two games ago when we scored 26 points off turnovers against Georgia Tech.

Fact is, one game (good or bad) doesn't really say much. Our defensive turnover rate this year is better than any of the past three seasons. We've generated the 68th most turnovers in the country, which isn't bad. Part of the difference between now and the "good ol' days" is the rules have changed. The freedom of movement thing makes it a lot harder to harass ballhandlers and strip them of the ball. West Virginia's amazing performance thus far aside, I believe turnovers are down all over, compared to the late 90s or early 2000s.

Kfanarmy
01-11-2017, 05:29 PM
Having scanned 11 pages of input, It is difficult to have anything new to add. One point that was not directly mentioned is that Fla St was subbing all throughout the game and the pace continued at a high rate, while some of our key players like Kennard and Tatum in particular remained in the game. Now our defense was not good from the outset, but our offense seemed to go cold in the second half. I suggest some of that was just fatigue. Hard to see that improving although Amile's presence would give us a lift......

Good observation. The point differential between the two teams is all on the bench. Duke's didn't contribute much, FSUs had 20 some points. acutally 21 to four I believe...what was the game differential?

Kfanarmy
01-11-2017, 05:31 PM
I can't believe Capel gets any grief for this loss. The countless dunks, layups, put-backs & second chances were the problem. The Duke offense was good, though sometimes struggled just to pass the ball around the perimeter, and when the deficit was sizable there was a bit of "1-on-FSU". I chalk that up to showing heart. To me it was the defense and rebounding that were atrocious. I don't know if this is what is preached in practice, but pulling five guys out to the three point line to apply pressure needlessly far out and leaving no one in the lane did not work. And the trademark constant defensive switching may not be a good idea against quicker (any) teams. I don't care how well you "communicate". There was some zone mixed in, which I do not recall during the lousy 2nd half against BC, but I think the whole defensive scheme needs a tune-up. Duke used to be a defense-first team and used to "generate offense from our defense". Those easy transition buckets seem like a long time ago.

It is a team event after all...he'll get his share credit, wins or losses.

Troublemaker
01-11-2017, 05:43 PM
The zone was very effective in the first half and allowed us to come back from a 7-point deficit to a slight lead, IIRC. On about the 4th or 5th possession of our zone, one of the Fl State guys hit a 3 and we were back to man.


It wasn't just a single three-pointer. There was an offensive rebound basket and a backdoor basket as well. We played zone on makes from approximately the 11 minute mark to approximately the 6 minute mark of the 1st half. We went from a 4-pt deficit to a 3-pt lead and back to a 4-pt deficit during that timeframe. It was the right time to go away from the zone, imo, as FSU was figuring it out.

It wasn't a normal zone. It was basically 4 guys playing zone with Matt as a free safety. Interesting changeup.

WVDUKEFAN
01-11-2017, 05:57 PM
I think Bolden needs to play. If we are going to get beat by 18,let the kid get some playing time. Jeter had some chances to score , but didn't execute. I think Grayson is a legitimate point guard. Maybe not Bobby Hurley, but I thought our offense executed better when he was running the show. I think we are getting close to panic time.

Troublemaker
01-11-2017, 06:03 PM
I can't believe Capel gets any grief for this loss. The countless dunks, layups, put-backs & second chances were the problem. The Duke offense was good, though sometimes struggled just to pass the ball around the perimeter, and when the deficit was sizable there was a bit of "1-on-FSU". I chalk that up to showing heart. To me it was the defense and rebounding that were atrocious. I don't know if this is what is preached in practice, but pulling five guys out to the three point line to apply pressure needlessly far out and leaving no one in the lane did not work. And the trademark constant defensive switching may not be a good idea against quicker (any) teams. I don't care how well you "communicate". There was some zone mixed in, which I do not recall during the lousy 2nd half against BC, but I think the whole defensive scheme needs a tune-up. Duke used to be a defense-first team and used to "generate offense from our defense". Those easy transition buckets seem like a long time ago.

The offense was worse than the defense, imo, although we're probably talking about the difference between an F+ and a D+. Neither deserves a good grade but the offense isn't getting beat up enough in this thread relative to the defense. FSU scored a ton of points off turnovers, and I treat those points as the offense's fault. The defense should get back on missed shots but on turnovers, sometimes they don't have a chance.

Chard
01-11-2017, 06:22 PM
I am a fan of Duke basketball, have no problem admitting it. I probably follow Duke closer than 90% of Duke fans.

I'm just a bigger UNC fan and I would like to see UNC beat Duke every time. I'm all about what happens on the court.

My personal enjoyment comes from breaking down the players skills, and how the two teams, with polar opposite playing styles, are able to impose their will on others...or not.

I can appreciate that and the honesty. What you said above comes through in your posts. Sometimes, its good to be shown an outsiders perspective. Some here can't take it. You and the fans from other schools bring that fresh perspective this board needs.

Oh, and GTHC. :)

Chard
01-11-2017, 06:31 PM
Duke used to employ a much more experienced lineup as well. Good team defense is a product of chemistry and experience - things that take time. Since adopting a more heavily "one and done" reliant roster, Duke's defensive prowess has dropped (understandably). The hope each year seems to be twofold:
1) The offensive talent and ability of the new recruits can overcome or at least mitigate some of the defensive deficiencies
2) That by the time the postseason rolls around, the team has gained enough experience playing together to be able to perform defensively at a MUCH higher level than you may see in Dec/Jan.

I think that as long as you have multiple freshmen in your core lineup, you're always going to have defensive issues early in the season, and early in the conference schedule as those guys have to adjust to playing on the road and also vs a much higher level of competition.

Solid. This is to be expected.

AvlDukie
01-11-2017, 06:55 PM
My primary takeaway from this season (so far): watching our current crop of (presumably) OAD freshmen gives me a new appreciation for just how incredible Brandon Ingram's season was last year.

And I am far from ready to throw the towel in on this season.

Go DUKE!

Kedsy
01-11-2017, 07:05 PM
My primary takeaway from this season (so far): watching our current crop of (presumably) OAD freshmen gives me a new appreciation for just how incredible Brandon Ingram's season was last year.

And yet, Brandon's stats from his first four ACC games are remarkably similar to Jayson's stats from his first four ACC games:

Brandon Ingram: 18.5 ppg; 6.8 rpg; 2.25 apg; 2.5 bpg; 1.25 spg; 49.0% FG%
Jayson Tatum: 20.0 ppg; 5.8 rpg; 2.25 apg; 1.25 bpg; 2.5 spg; 49.1% FG%

Maybe once it's all over, we'll think Jayson had an "incredible" season too.

Skydog
01-11-2017, 07:07 PM
A random observation: All freshmen aren't alike and they don't necessarily have the same learning curves. Some are recruited by Duke because they are good athletes with great basketball IQs while others are freakish athletes that may or may not come in with an already developed superior ability to read the game. I remember Hurleys blue/white scrimmage game and he already was ahead of most of the team in reading the game. Not a single college game under his belt and he was glaring at his upper class teammates because they weren't getting in position on fast breaks. That sort of thing. Tyus similarly read the game at a very high level from the very beginning (w/o Hurley's extreme confidence level, obviously) and his basketball IQ by the end of his freshman year was off the charts. Otoh this year our highly rated freshman big men fall in the freakish athlete class. Not that they don't have other good traits - they obviously do or Coach K wouldn't have recruited them. But they clearly have a lot to learn in terms of reading the game and handling the pace of college ball and I don't think all of it is just due to missed games. That certainly hasn't helped but it has probably hurt them more than it would have Hurley or Tyus -they have a longer road to travel. And its going to make catching up in 2 more months of play even harder.

I'm mainly pointing out that generalizing about what to expect by the end of the year based on previous years progress and generalizing about building teams around one & dones, etc. is dangerous. Freshmen, and freshman classes, differ. Some come in ready to rumble (Kyrie), others take longer. Maybe longer than we have (Rivers).