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DukePA
01-08-2017, 12:56 AM
Saw this clip on our regional cable news this evening and haven't seen it anywhere else except for this BC site. Thoughts?

http://www.bcinterruption.com/2017/1/7/14201606/grayson-allen-tries-to-trip-an-opponent-again

Kedsy
01-08-2017, 12:59 AM
Saw this clip on our regional cable news this evening and haven't seen it anywhere else except for this BC site. Thoughts?

http://www.bcinterruption.com/2017/1/7/14201606/grayson-allen-tries-to-trip-an-opponent-again

Did you watch the clip? There's a reason this isn't all over ESPN.

DukePA
01-08-2017, 01:01 AM
Did you watch the clip? There's a reason this isn't all over ESPN.

Of course I watched it.

moonpie23
01-08-2017, 01:08 AM
it's incidental contact......there are plenty of times players legs get intertwined and locked up........this isn't tripping....

duke4ever19
01-08-2017, 01:10 AM
Did you watch the clip? There's a reason this isn't all over ESPN.

Are you serious? It's was on the front page os ESPN, CBSSPORTS and Sports Illustrated's website.

Seth Greenberg has a segment on it. Andy Katz has talked about it. ESPN's article alone has well over a hundred comments.

InSpades
01-08-2017, 01:14 AM
When you get pushed one way you put your leg out the other way to maintain your balance. This is much ado about nothing.

DukePA
01-08-2017, 01:22 AM
When you get pushed one way you put your leg out the other way to maintain your balance. This is much ado about nothing.

Makes sense to me, except I don't see him being pushed.

DukieInKansas
01-08-2017, 04:12 AM
I'll take much ado about nothing for $100, Alex.

He ran into a screen and was knocked off balance. Torso goes toward the ground and back leg comes up to try to maintain balance. No side movement to the leg.

PackMan97
01-08-2017, 04:53 AM
Grayson should be suspended for the next four games...has to be four games or there is no point.

DrChainsaw
01-08-2017, 05:40 AM
I don't buy the argument. It looks intentional to me, in this clip.

Devilwin
01-08-2017, 06:00 AM
Watched it three times. Maybe he was trying to maintain his balance, but it sure doesn't look good. Hope he's not that stupid. Luckily, the kid didn't fall. If he had, well, you know...

sandinmyshoes
01-08-2017, 06:12 AM
I cannot see any reaction from the BC player at all,so I'm going with this being much closer to MAAN than OMG. It's really not even "much" ado.

Devilwin
01-08-2017, 06:19 AM
Seth G takes up for Grayson.
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEViw1H3JY2zsA8yonnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTEyZnQ3dm8 0BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM3BHZ0aWQDQjI2ODNfMQRzZWMDc3I-/RV=2/RE=1483902901/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fkentucky.forums.rivals.com%2fthre ads%2fseth-greenberg-taking-up-for-grayson-allen-he-lost-his-balance.222193%2f/RK=0/RS=XqFC9YeqEcSIdR2YqPuje116kj4-

DrChainsaw
01-08-2017, 06:36 AM
Seth G takes up for Grayson.
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEViw1H3JY2zsA8yonnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTEyZnQ3dm8 0BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM3BHZ0aWQDQjI2ODNfMQRzZWMDc3I-/RV=2/RE=1483902901/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fkentucky.forums.rivals.com%2fthre ads%2fseth-greenberg-taking-up-for-grayson-allen-he-lost-his-balance.222193%2f/RK=0/RS=XqFC9YeqEcSIdR2YqPuje116kj4-

OMG, it's over.

NashvilleDevil
01-08-2017, 06:58 AM
It was much ado about nothing until the clip was posted by bleacher report and the national media asked the question if he tripped another opponent. Not helping is the BC guy took to twitter about the incident. Broadcast never mentioned anything, refs didn't look at the play, and the ACC says it's inconclusive. Appears to me that Grayson will just have to live with this scrutiny until he is no longer in a Duke uniform.

84Duke
01-08-2017, 07:02 AM
Maryland fans never go away.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/01/07/is-dukes-grayson-allen-already-back-to-his-tripping-ways/?utm_term=.732939cc2ec8#comments

dukelifer
01-08-2017, 07:36 AM
Makes sense to me, except I don't see him being pushed.

The BC player set a wide screen - Grayson moved backwards and his toe hit the side of the BC players foot. This caused Grayson to lose his balance. The BC player reflexively retracted his foot after contact. Not a trip.

DrChainsaw
01-08-2017, 07:49 AM
I don't see it as a trip. To me, it looks like a kick.

dukelifer
01-08-2017, 07:56 AM
I don't see it as a trip. To me, it looks like a kick.

Have someone videotape yourself in slow motion as you hit something with your toe with your eyes closed. You will retract your leg and it will look like a backwards kick.

Bob Green
01-08-2017, 08:26 AM
I vote much ado about nothing. Here is a video clip worth getting excited about:

http://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18429695/brawl-erupts-unlv-utah-state-women-basketball-teams

devildeac
01-08-2017, 08:30 AM
I vote much ado about nothing. Here is a video clip worth getting excited about:

http://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18429695/brawl-erupts-unlv-utah-state-women-basketball-teams

Meh. Nunez vs Rousey now that's excitement. :rolleyes:

slower
01-08-2017, 08:32 AM
Figures that it was Tava involved in the contact. That guy smacked a couple players in the face during the game.

I hate that I have to say or even think this, but I think there's a small (yet real) possibility that Grayson doesn't make it through the season. His reactions are instinctive, and it's VERY hard to just stop those kinds of reactions. Somebody may just get him to lash out again, and his fate won't be up to K or Duke next time.

Bob Green
01-08-2017, 08:32 AM
Meh. Nunez vs Rousey now that's excitement. :rolleyes:

The basketbrawl lasted longer. :D

devildeac
01-08-2017, 08:35 AM
The basketbrawl lasted longer. :D

Well played. ;)

richardjackson199
01-08-2017, 08:38 AM
Grayson should be suspended for the next four games...has to be four games or there is no point.

Dude are you serious? Grayson clearly lost his balance for a moment because he ran into a screen. He wasn't trying to trip anybody. Seth Greenberg explained it pretty well.

This witch hunt click bait crap is so irresponsible and out of control.

IMO, Grayson has to leave Duke after this season for the draft. This level of biased, incessant scrutinizing and accusations is too much for anybody to get through in that many competitive games.

In that game, the only player who got tripped (and dangerously) was Grayson Allen.

Kedsy
01-08-2017, 08:44 AM
Dude are you serious? Grayson clearly lost his balance for a moment because he ran into a screen. He wasn't trying to trip anybody. Seth Greenberg explained it pretty well.

Look at the schedule then look at the guy's handle.

devildeac
01-08-2017, 08:46 AM
Grayson should be suspended for the next four games...has to be four games or there is no point.


Dude are you serious? Grayson clearly lost his balance for a moment because he ran into a screen. He wasn't trying to trip anybody. Seth Greenberg explained it pretty well.

This witch hunt click bait crap is so irresponsible and out of control.

IMO, Grayson has to leave Duke after this season for the draft. This level of biased, incessant scrutinizing and accusations is too much for anybody to get through in that many competitive games.

In that game, the only player who got tripped (and dangerously) was Grayson Allen.

PackMan's proposed 4 game suspension would include, wait for this...






...our game vs NCSU at CIS on 1/23.



Methinks our Wolfpack buddy is funnin' us. ;)

richardjackson199
01-08-2017, 08:49 AM
Look at the schedule then look at the guy's handle.

Ha - got it now! Sorry Packman - you were clearly joking. I'm admittedly sensitive about this, because Grayson is a good kid who absolutely does not deserve this bs every time he runs into a screen. This incessant media scrutiny cannot be good for his psyche, and in this case is grossly unfair IMO.

He deserves a chance to move forward, but it's clear that the media and clicking Duke haters will never let him get that while at Duke.

duke74
01-08-2017, 08:51 AM
Dude are you serious? Grayson clearly lost his balance for a moment because he ran into a screen. He wasn't trying to trip anybody. Seth Greenberg explained it pretty well.

This witch hunt click bait crap is so irresponsible and out of control.

IMO, Grayson has to leave Duke after this season for the draft. This level of biased, incessant scrutinizing and accusations is too much for anybody to get through in that many competitive games.

In that game, the only player who got tripped (and dangerously) was Grayson Allen.

Can't and won't speak for P-man, but I think he may have been being sarcastic based on all the noise of a couple of weeks ago. At least, that's how I read the post.

OldPhiKap
01-08-2017, 08:56 AM
I am hoping for a gloating Packman by sundown. But perhaps that thought belongs on a different thread.

davekay1971
01-08-2017, 09:00 AM
I am hoping for a gloating Packman by sundown. But perhaps that thought belongs on a different thread.

That thought belongs on every thread.

9F

rthomas
01-08-2017, 09:01 AM
Confucius says, You pick your nose on tv, you must hope your nose never itches in public again.

DrChainsaw
01-08-2017, 09:02 AM
Figures that it was Tava involved in the contact. That guy smacked a couple players in the face during the game.

I hate that I have to say or even think this, but I think there's a small (yet real) possibility that Grayson doesn't make it through the season. His reactions are instinctive, and it's VERY hard to just stop those kinds of reactions. Somebody may just get him to lash out again, and his fate won't be up to K or Duke next time.

Not sure about making it through the season, but I agree that these actions appear to be ingrained behaviors, rather than conscious decisions. I think that makes it even harder for Grayson to control it.

devildeac
01-08-2017, 09:11 AM
Look at this from Adam Rowe:

https://twitter.com/adamrowetdd?lang=en

Not only does Grayson trip himself (suspension-worthy in and of itself), he then hurls the ball toward the Hodges' region of the BC player AND tries to take his legs out with his chop block!

(:rolleyes:)

Indoor66
01-08-2017, 09:16 AM
Not sure about making it through the season, but I agree that these actions appear to be ingrained behaviors, rather than conscious decisions. I think that makes it even harder for Grayson to control it.

Thank you for your sage analysis, Dr. Death!

DrChainsaw
01-08-2017, 09:27 AM
Thank you for your sage analysis, Dr. Death!

No problem.

My opinions are worth every penny I'm paid for them.....

CameronBlue
01-08-2017, 09:35 AM
I think it's possible that Grayson, feeling the contact, attempted to draw a foul with sort of a reverse flop if you will but that's it. More likely it was typical of most players trying to fight through a screen--flailing arms and legs are pretty common. Rest assured where benefit of the doubt is normally given, Grayson will receive none.

CDu
01-08-2017, 09:40 AM
Rest assured where benefit of the doubt is normally given, Grayson will receive none.

Such is a consequence of repeated indiscretions.

MChambers
01-08-2017, 09:46 AM
Are you serious? It's was on the front page os ESPN, CBSSPORTS and Sports Illustrated's website.

Seth Greenberg has a segment on it. Andy Katz has talked about it. ESPN's article alone has well over a hundred comments.

The Washington Post has a ridiculous piece on it, too. I won't link, for obvious reasons.

OldPhiKap
01-08-2017, 09:48 AM
Such is a consequence of repeated indiscretions.

This.

Tripping William
01-08-2017, 09:53 AM
Such is a consequence of repeated indiscretions.


This.

Agreed. The microscope is set at DEFCON1. Blame budwom for that horribly mixed metaphor. :o

I put this incident in the "Much Ado" category, but every breath he takes, every move he makes, . . . . (I'll stop now.)

Wander
01-08-2017, 09:55 AM
Saw this clip on our regional cable news this evening and haven't seen it anywhere else except for this BC site. Thoughts?

http://www.bcinterruption.com/2017/1/7/14201606/grayson-allen-tries-to-trip-an-opponent-again

Keep this rule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines) in mind anytime you see Grayson articles.

OldPhiKap
01-08-2017, 09:59 AM
Agreed. The microscope is set at DEFCON1. Blame budwom for that horribly mixed metaphor. :o

I put this incident in the "Much Ado" category, but every breath he takes, every move he makes, . . . . (I'll stop now.)

"If you don't want to get tripped, well -- dont stand so close to me"

Tripping William
01-08-2017, 10:01 AM
"If you don't want to get tripped, well -- dont stand so close to me"

That stings (or is it Stings?).

Furniture
01-08-2017, 10:06 AM
I am really pulling for Grayson but I am also really worried. Even though this clip that's going around maybe nothing I see it and can't help thinking how strange it is. I play soccer. You get pushed around all sorts of ways I just don't see how anyone can have that kick back reaction. Then there was the forcing/pushing out of the BC player which could have been really dangerous. Why did he do that? Then there was another play which broke down somehow and Grayson got really pissed and threw the ball down hard. He did catch it again.
This is a game at home which Duke was winning. What is he going to do on the road in a hostile atmosphere? It really fees like treading on egg shells. I really hope the coaches give him a good talking to.
i feel bad even posting this because I don't want to add to the paranoia. But it is how I feel. Worried.

Rich
01-08-2017, 10:07 AM
I put this incident in the "Much Ado" category, but every breath he takes, every move he makes, . . . . (I'll stop now.)


"If you don't want to get tripped, well -- don't stand so close to me"


That stings (or is it Stings?).

OPK, please don't encourage TW.

devildeac
01-08-2017, 10:07 AM
Agreed. The microscope is set at DEFCON1. Blame budwom for that horribly mixed metaphor. :o

I put this incident in the "Much Ado" category, but every breath he takes, every move he makes, . . . . (I'll stop now.)

That last sentence really Stings.

Damn. I see, upon further review, that TW and OPK have quickly beaten me to this thought. Can't stop Policing DBR for more than a few minutes.

Owen Meany
01-08-2017, 10:10 AM
Its unbelievable that this non-incident is able to gain any traction, particularly on a night where

1.)Allen actually was tripped himself going full speed to the basket and
2.)AA Dillon Brooks, on another top team gave a full on, unambiguous kick to the groin of another player,
3.) the coaches of 3 major men's teams got in a scuffle, and
4.) 2 women's teams got in a "brawl".

Allen has made his share of mistakes, but no, he does not deserve the ridiculous amount of scrutiny he has received. There is absolutely nothing there that suggests he was trying to trip a player. But when you slow things down and examine them like the Zapruder film, and you have an audience who wants so badly to believe that Allen did do something, people will see what they want to see.

For goodness sake, Seth Greenburg, pitchfork and torch in hand, has led the mob against Allen - supplemented with cries of ACC favoritism for Duke. Jeff Allen and Deron Washington's coach has even had the gall to suggest that Grayson "has "demons". This "incident" was served up to Greenburg on a silver platter, but even he refused to bite. Because there is no "there" there and it would look ridiculous to claim that there was.

I find it upsetting that even some Duke fans are willing to take the bait at this point. Grayson Allen can make Duke a much better team and a favorite for the title. But at this point I am starting to wish the kid had left last year rather than be subjected to what must be a crushing amount of ill-will and scrutiny. He has made mistakes, but he deserves better than the treatment he has received.

OldPhiKap
01-08-2017, 10:11 AM
That last sentence really Stings.

Damn. I see, upon further review, that TW and OPK have quickly beaten me to this thought. Can't stop Policing DBR for more than a few minutes.

Gotta watch for the ghost in the machine.

richardjackson199
01-08-2017, 10:14 AM
Such is a consequence of repeated indiscretions.

Fair point and I agree with that in principle.

But on the other hand, Grayson now has everything to lose. Grayson is smart and he knows that. It's pretty safe to assume Grayson is doing everything he can to not have another incident.

Another player may try to bait him, and Grayson probably knows that too and will try his best to avoid any retaliation. However, another player could also try to flop over his leg and react like they were tripped to try to sell it to the ref. I know that's a crazy stretch, but the motive of getting the best player on Duke permanently suspended from that and all future games would be tempting to some.

Would another ACC player or coach stoop to that level? I think so. On separate occasions, I have talked casually with 2 different ACC head coaches in the past (who are no longer coaching). I ran into one in the gym, and one on a college track. In both cases I was a little shocked at the hatred and jealousy they showed toward Duke's program and success under K.

Most coaches and players would not try something this underhanded, but some would. There is not much Grayson can do to prevent that. He needs to play the game hard and ensure that he always displays the sportsmanship standard of a Duke basketball player. But that and controlling his emotions is all he can do going forward.

Given that the consequences to a good kid and great player would be so severe, and given the clear motive and benefit to a competing player/team, I think Grayson should be given some benefit of the doubt if (and when) another clearly inconclusive incident occurs. This has clearly risen to the level of an unprecedented and special situation. As such, I think referees of Duke games should be advised to watch out for flopping and baiting Grayson as well as of course holding Grayson accountable. If another player tries to flop and sell a trip that did not happen - that player should be ejected IMO.

Given Grayson has everything to lose, I think he should be given some benefit of the doubt when clear doubt exists.

jv001
01-08-2017, 10:20 AM
I am really pulling for Grayson but I am also really worried. Even though this clip that's going around maybe nothing I see it and can't help thinking how strange it is. I play soccer. You get pushed around all sorts of ways I just don't see how anyone can have that kick back reaction. Then there was the forcing/pushing out of the BC player which could have been really dangerous. Why did he do that? Then there was another play which broke down somehow and Grayson got really pissed and threw the ball down hard. He did catch it again. This is a game at home which Duke was winning. What is he going to do on the road in a hostile atmosphere? It really fees like treading on egg shells. I really hope the coaches give him a good talking to.
i feel bad even posting this because I don't want to add to the paranoia. But it is how I feel. Worried.

I saw that as well and I thought, here he goes again. Then I realized Grayson was being emotional because of a good Duke defensive play. I thought Duke had been called for a foul, but when the action begins, it's Duke's ball. GoDuke!

Green Wave Dukie
01-08-2017, 10:21 AM
Agreed. ... but every breath he takes, every move he makes, . . . . (I'll stop now.)

I'll be watching you!

CDu
01-08-2017, 10:24 AM
I saw that as well and I thought, here he goes again. Then I realized Grayson was being emotional because of a good Duke defensive play. I thought Duke had been called for a foul, but when the action begins, it's Duke's ball. GoDuke!

Yeah, that was an exhibition of excitement, not frustration. He was fired up in a good way on that play.

I remember seeing the play where Allen got bumped and his leg came up and I immediately thought "oh boy, someone is going to make something of this." I THINK it was an off-balance thing. But it certainly COULD have been a reflex like his previous ones that he caught just in time. Impossible to say which it was. Hopefully the former.

But, as I mentioned before, when you commit three such indiscretions, people are going to be looking much more closely and with much less sympathy/leash than before.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-08-2017, 10:24 AM
Fair point and I agree with that in principle.

But on the other hand, Grayson now has everything to lose. Grayson is smart and he knows that. It's pretty safe to assume Grayson is doing everything he can to not have another incident.

Another player may try to bait him, and Grayson probably knows that too and will try his best to avoid any retaliation. However, another player could also try to flop over his leg and react like they were tripped to try to sell it to the ref. I know that's a crazy stretch, but the motive of getting the best player on Duke permanently suspended from that and all future games would be tempting to some.



I agree with the exception of the "crazy stretch." It is inevitable that Grayson will be drawn into uncomfortable situations by gameplans, fans, and opposing players. This is precisely why he MUST remain above the fray.

For all the handwringing over media coverage, he has lost any and all benefit of the doubt. The leash will be shorter than ever, and he absolutely has to understand what that means.

Green Wave Dukie
01-08-2017, 10:34 AM
I agree with the exception of the "crazy stretch." It is inevitable that Grayson will be drawn into uncomfortable situations by gameplans, fans, and opposing players. This is precisely why he MUST remain above the fray.

For all the handwringing over media coverage, he has lost any and all benefit of the doubt. The leash will be shorter than ever, and he absolutely has to understand what that means.

Hope Grayson gets that message (in a bottle)

tbyers11
01-08-2017, 10:36 AM
I am really pulling for Grayson but I am also really worried. Even though this clip that's going around maybe nothing I see it and can't help thinking how strange it is. I play soccer. You get pushed around all sorts of ways I just don't see how anyone can have that kick back reaction. Then there was the forcing/pushing out of the BC player which could have been really dangerous. Why did he do that? Then there was another play which broke down somehow and Grayson got really pissed and threw the ball down hard. He did catch it again.
This is a game at home which Duke was winning. What is he going to do on the road in a hostile atmosphere? It really fees like treading on egg shells. I really hope the coaches give him a good talking to.
i feel bad even posting this because I don't want to add to the paranoia. But it is how I feel. Worried.

I've played a lot of basketball and soccer too and Grayson's leg coming up like that looks like a totally normal physical reaction to having your foot taking out from under you while leaning forward with your weight on your other foot. Get in a defensive stance and start shuffling to your left. Pretend your left foot gets displaced upward just as you are expecting it to land on the ground (like Grayson's was by Tava's leg). I keep my balance by leaning toward my right foot and keeping my left leg in the air.

The play I remember where Grayson throw the ball down hard was with about a minute left in the game when he fought hard around a screen and caused Robinson to travel while trying to get off a 3 point shot. Grayson slammed the ball down and yelled out and caught the ball as a reaction of joy. "We finally got a defensive stop that ended the game" rather than "I'm pissed". If that is the play you are thinking about I wouldn't be worried.

Overall, I agree that Grayson is being examined, and will be examined all year long, under a high-powered microscope while everyone else (except Dillon Brooks now) is looked at through normal eyes. It is crazy to me that video of a complete non-incident can be posted on Twitter by any yahoo and can be a lead story on ESPN a few hours later and require an official "this is not an issue" statement from the ACC the same night. ESPN's video on this piece shows the "incident" and then cuts to video of Grayson looking annoyed and distraught from 5 minutes later in the game. Sloppy editing attempt to make it look like Grayson was having an emotional reaction to the non-incident. On Sunday morning, this story is still among the main headlines while Dillon Brooks' incident is only listed on the NCAA BB page. Insane. However, Grayson's previous actions have made this the situation and he has to deal with it.

Grayson does have to be more careful and the haters are going to scream bloody murder at any Zapruder-like (h/t Owen Meany) footage. But this, IMO, is a total case of much ado about nothing

Bob Green
01-08-2017, 10:39 AM
But, as I mentioned before, when you commit three such indiscretions, people are going to be looking much more closely and with much less sympathy/leash than before.


...he has lost any and all benefit of the doubt. The leash will be shorter than ever, and he absolutely has to understand what that means.

These two comments sum up my opinion nicely. Whether Grayson attempted to trip Tava or not is irrelevant, the general public is going to see it the way they want to see it.

billy
01-08-2017, 10:46 AM
Not to get too political, but to me this is akin to the Fake News phenomenon that has been much discussed lately. What happened yesterday would not have been noted had it been any other player in the country (and, yes, I do very much agree with CDu and others that he has brought the scrutiny upon himself).

The involvement of social media in this, just like Fake News, can't be denied. Obviously opposing fan-bases have an interest in making this a bigger deal than it was (no one was remotely hurt in any of the three much discussed previous "trips" or yesterday).

Perhaps we are missing an opportunity for basketball terrorism of sorts by playing defense-only in this process. As a fan base, perhaps we should scour the film of all opponents games to look for the slightest perception of indiscretions performed by their players, make our own fake news, and take an offensive position.

Ultrarunner
01-08-2017, 10:47 AM
Gotta watch for the ghost in the machine.

I'm just humming an old Beattles song while I stay on topic. Got a good reason for taking the easy way out.

Bluedog
01-08-2017, 10:50 AM
Its unbelievable that this non-incident is able to gain any traction, particularly on a night where

1.)Allen actually was tripped himself going full speed to the basket and
2.)AA Dillon Brooks, on another top team gave a full on, unambiguous kick to the groin of another player,
3.) the coaches of 3 major men's teams got in a scuffle, and
4.) 2 women's teams got in a "brawl".


I googled Dillon Brooks because I hadn't heard of it and the first two articles that came up dedicate more time to Grayson and Duke than they do to Brooks. It's pretty comical at this point really.

tbyers11
01-08-2017, 11:01 AM
Not to get too political, but to me this is akin to the Fake News phenomenon that has been much discussed lately. What happened yesterday would not have been noted had it been any other player in the country (and, yes, I do very much agree with CDu and others that he has brought the scrutiny upon himself).

The involvement of social media in this, just like Fake News, can't be denied. Obviously opposing fan-bases have an interest in making this a bigger deal than it was (no one was remotely hurt in any of the three much discussed previous "trips" or yesterday).

Perhaps we are missing an opportunity for basketball terrorism of sorts by playing defense-only in this process. As a fan base, perhaps we should scour the film of all opponents games to look for the slightest perception of indiscretions performed by their players, make our own fake news, and take an offensive position.

Good idea. Try to get out in front of the story. Sadly, I think our fanbase is much smaller and slightly more level-headed than the combination of all others :D

Here is my submission to the cause. While it is from last year it never got any national media scrutiny. Jamal Murray totally pulled a punk move on the LSU player. I find this very analogous to Grayson's incidents. It was stupid and chippy but differs from the Dillon Brooks incident in that there was no intent to injure.


https://vine.co/v/iXJUzHg5Y1h

(Sorry, I can't get the video to actually appear)

alteran
01-08-2017, 11:05 AM
I googled Dillon Brooks because I hadn't heard of it and the first two articles that came up dedicate more time to Grayson and Duke than they do to Brooks. It's pretty comical at this point really.

I could not possibly hate Espn more than I do right now. I have resolved to never let them make a dime off me in the future.

Rich
01-08-2017, 11:08 AM
That last sentence really Stings.


Gotta watch for the ghost in the machine.


I'll be watching you!


Hope Grayson gets that message (in a bottle)

See what happens when I'm next to you, but you don't stand too close to me, Roxanne? Total synchronicity. Like getting a message in the bottle while walking on the moon. There's a hole in my life so I'm so lonely, but I can't stand losing you because this bed's too big without you and I'm wrapped around your finger. Bring on the night, I've been driven to tears by the king of pain.

De Do Do Do De Da Da Da

DBFAN
01-08-2017, 11:13 AM
Well since the ACC said it is a non issue I couldn't care less about any opinions on it. The issue was already handled and nothing else will come of it, so all the fan bases can say what they want but it won't do them any good.

DBFAN
01-08-2017, 11:20 AM
And while some places have tried to make a big deal about it, this situation doesn't have nearly as much traction as the others. Just go to twitter and you will see it's not every other tweet. I imagine by tomorrow they won't even have an article about it anymore on ESPN, which as of now is just a small headline at the bottom, which is quite different than last time when his face was plastered on the front page, and it was the top 5 leading articles on ESPN

YmoBeThere
01-08-2017, 11:21 AM
De Do Do Do De Da Da Da

Is all I want to say to you. And this thread.

Now it is time for some Tea in the Sahara, then to catch the Moon over Bourbon Street, because I'm not going the join this Children's Crusade.

YmoBeThere
01-08-2017, 11:22 AM
Grayson should be suspended for the next four games...has to be four games or there is no point.

If you love somebody, set them free.

Owen Meany
01-08-2017, 11:26 AM
Not to get too political, but to me this is akin to the Fake News phenomenon that has been much discussed lately. What happened yesterday would not have been noted had it been any other player in the country (and, yes, I do very much agree with CDu and others that he has brought the scrutiny upon himself).

The involvement of social media in this, just like Fake News, can't be denied. Obviously opposing fan-bases have an interest in making this a bigger deal than it was (no one was remotely hurt in any of the three much discussed previous "trips" or yesterday).

Perhaps we are missing an opportunity for basketball terrorism of sorts by playing defense-only in this process. As a fan base, perhaps we should scour the film of all opponents games to look for the slightest perception of indiscretions performed by their players, make our own fake news, and take an offensive position.

I have wished in the past that someone would take this idea up (ex. when videos went out of Allen's travel against UVA, or the videos of Duke drawing fouls against Wisconsin). It would be great for someone to do this to illustrate how normal occurrences can look bad when taken out of context or to show how many "incidents" occur in a normal game. I would love to see fans click on links to see Allen's latest outrage, only to be "rick-rolled" and see a compilation of shots others have taken against Allen, or questionable plays by opposing players. Unfortunately, I lack the skills to do this.

This will likely seem silly to many. But social media is a powerful influence. Along with the "hot-take" culture of ESPN, this has fueled the negative perception about Duke. And perceptions do matter and influence fans, media, referees, recruits, etc. Some random guy on twitter has escalated a non-incident from last night to a headline on ESPN and a response from the ACC. And it could cost Duke dearly in the future - through a bad call, suspension, close recruiting battle, etc.

For anyone who dismisses this, it is important to note that Coach K himself acknowledged the danger of negative publicity and feelings about Duke a few years ago and took proactive measures to combat it (Duke Blue Planet most visibly). So this isn't simply internet paranoia.

CameronBlue
01-08-2017, 11:30 AM
If you love somebody, set them free.

This thread is giving me a pain, like the King of All Pains.

curtis325
01-08-2017, 11:37 AM
I'm just humming an old Beattles song while I stay on topic. Got a good reason for taking the easy way out.

It took me so long to find out.

Stray Gator
01-08-2017, 11:41 AM
I could not possibly hate Espn more than I do right now. I have resolved to never let them make a dime off me in the future.

Anyone who watched the Inside College Basketball show on CBS Sports Network late last night might suggest that ESPN has some competition in this regard. Noting that while "this has blown up on twitter," the panel moderator mentioned that the ACC had already declared that there was no foul or conclusive evidence to support a finding that Grayson was guilty of a deliberate attempt to trip the BC player; and Seth Davis argued that the claims of an intentional leg kick were "ludicrous," protesting that people "should be fair to the kid." But former Tarheel Brendon Haywood insisted repeatedly -- with obvious glee -- that this was "the fourth tripping violation" by Allen, and proclaimed that "he shouldn't even be playing now" because "most people think he should still be suspended."

There's no click bait like Duke hate . . .

dukelifer
01-08-2017, 11:43 AM
I have wished in the past that someone would take this idea up (ex. when videos went out of Allen's travel against UVA, or the videos of Duke drawing fouls against Wisconsin). It would be great for someone to do this to illustrate how normal occurrences can look bad when taken out of context or to show how many "incidents" occur in a normal game. I would love to see fans click on links to see Allen's latest outrage, only to be "rick-rolled" and see a compilation of shots others have taken against Allen, or questionable plays by opposing players. Unfortunately, I lack the skills to do this.

This will likely seem silly to many. But social media is a powerful influence. Along with the "hot-take" culture of ESPN, this has fueled the negative perception about Duke. And perceptions do matter and influence fans, media, referees, recruits, etc. Some random guy on twitter has escalated a non-incident from last night to a headline on ESPN and a response from the ACC. And it could cost Duke dearly in the future - through a bad call, suspension, close recruiting battle, etc.

For anyone who dismisses this, it is important to note that Coach K himself acknowledged the danger of negative publicity and feelings about Duke a few years ago and took proactive measures to combat it (Duke Blue Planet most visibly). So this isn't simply internet paranoia.

As you suggest- so much in slow motion can be interpreted as an intentional foul. I recall someone tripping a Duke player yesterday. If the NCAA cares about this they need to make all contact of leg on leg that leads to a fall an ejectable offense that could carry a suspension. It should be akin to fighting. The media has made this equivalency and it needs to be put into the rules. I am not sure why the ESPN talking heads aren't pushing for this.

Son of Mojo
01-08-2017, 11:43 AM
Anyone who watched the Inside College Basketball show on CBS Sports Network late last night might suggest that ESPN has some competition in this regard. Noting that while "this has blown up on twitter," the panel moderator mentioned that the ACC had already declared that there was no foul or conclusive evidence to support a finding that Grayson was guilty of a deliberate attempt to trip the BC player; and Seth Davis argued that the claims of an intentional leg kick were "ludicrous," protesting that people "should be fair to the kid." But former Tarheel Brendon Haywood insisted repeatedly -- with obvious glee -- that this was "the fourth tripping violation" by Allen, and proclaimed that "he shouldn't even be playing now" because "most people think he should still be suspended."

There's no click bait like Duke hate . . .

May need to send Elton to that studio. That usually makes Brenda back down.....

arnie
01-08-2017, 12:01 PM
And while some places have tried to make a big deal about it, this situation doesn't have nearly as much traction as the others. Just go to twitter and you will see it's not every other tweet. I imagine by tomorrow they won't even have an article about it anymore on ESPN, which as of now is just a small headline at the bottom, which is quite different than last time when his face was plastered on the front page, and it was the top 5 leading articles on ESPN

The latest Grayson act of terror is currently on Sportscenter- ahead of the very minor coach fighting incident.

Merlindevildog91
01-08-2017, 12:05 PM
It is no longer a trip, by the way, in the rhetoric of ESPN. It is "contact to the groin area." I guess next we will find out Grayson was on the grassy knoll.

jv001
01-08-2017, 12:05 PM
Anyone who watched the Inside College Basketball show on CBS Sports Network late last night might suggest that ESPN has some competition in this regard. Noting that while "this has blown up on twitter," the panel moderator mentioned that the ACC had already declared that there was no foul or conclusive evidence to support a finding that Grayson was guilty of a deliberate attempt to trip the BC player; and Seth Davis argued that the claims of an intentional leg kick were "ludicrous," protesting that people "should be fair to the kid." But former Tarheel Brendon Haywood insisted repeatedly -- with obvious glee -- that this was "the fourth tripping violation" by Allen, and proclaimed that "he shouldn't even be playing now" because "most people think he should still be suspended."

There's no click bait like Duke hate . . .

Don't take anything Haywood says seriously. He didn't learn to count while at Cheat University. GoDuke!

uh_no
01-08-2017, 12:05 PM
Anyone who watched the Inside College Basketball show on CBS Sports Network late last night might suggest that ESPN has some competition in this regard. Noting that while "this has blown up on twitter," the panel moderator mentioned that the ACC had already declared that there was no foul or conclusive evidence to support a finding that Grayson was guilty of a deliberate attempt to trip the BC player; and Seth Davis argued that the claims of an intentional leg kick were "ludicrous," protesting that people "should be fair to the kid." But former Tarheel Brendon Haywood insisted repeatedly -- with obvious glee -- that this was "the fourth tripping violation" by Allen, and proclaimed that "he shouldn't even be playing now" because "most people think he should still be suspended."

There's no click bait like Duke hate . . .

The easy response to a UNC fan is that they're so scared of NCSU they had to cancel last night's game.....i mean i would be afraid to if i lost to GT who got blown out by duke who got blown out by VT who got blown out by my next opponent....transitive property says NCSU wins this one by 103 points.

Kedsy
01-08-2017, 12:23 PM
Even though this clip that's going around maybe nothing I see it and can't help thinking how strange it is. I play soccer. You get pushed around all sorts of ways I just don't see how anyone can have that kick back reaction.

Others have pointed out that many people do push their left leg out when trying to regain balance. What I saw was the guy setting a wide-stanced screen, and when Grayson slid into it, the two players' legs got tangled a little. Grayson did try to catch his balance, then he wiggled his leg to free it and continued playing defense. It didn't seem strange to me at all.

kmspeaks
01-08-2017, 12:38 PM
I could not possibly hate Espn more than I do right now. I have resolved to never let them make a dime off me in the future.

For every game that Grayson Allen plays in the rest of his Duke career the Twitter gif warriors will be examining every second of every game to try and find something that looks even a tiny bit abnormal. If they don't find anything, they'll make something up. As long as ESPN and other media outlets keep picking this up and reporting it as actual news it will continue. I just don't care anymore.

7053

A couple of years ago I decided I wasn't going to watch anything that wasn't a game - no Sportscenter, no "analysis", no pre or post game shows, nothing, on any network. I've got the CBS Sports app to check scores and schedules but I never venture over to the news section of the app. It's made my life better and I've never felt like I've missed out on any big news. If it's really important someone will post about it here.

ChrisP
01-08-2017, 12:40 PM
Here's my take. First, I don't think this latest "incident" is way overblown because of Grayson's previous actions and because it's Duke. But here's something else I have noticed - and apologies if someone else has already made this observation here - but I think we have all seen how GA tends to be fairly demonstrative oftentimes when fouled. We've all see him flail his arms and even snap his head back in an exaggerated manner when he feels contact. I'm not saying he does it every time, but it happens a lot. Anyway, I am starting to think that perhaps Grayson's "flailing" includes his legs, too, and that rather than anything malicious toward other players, he simply has developed this habit of moving his body in ways so as to attempt to draw attention to the fact that he feels he was fouled.

Personally, I don't like it because it seems manufactured and as though he's trying to "sell the foul" to the refs. Yeah, yeah, I know - Grayson gets hacked and smacked and bumped and grabbed a lot and doesn't get the call, so perhaps he feels like he really has to sell it in order to get the ref to blow his whistle. I have no problem with that attitude but I do have a problem with the fact that Grayson (if this is in fact why he flails like he does) is spending any time or energy thinking about selling a foul when he should just focus on playing the game and the things over which he has control on the court.

hudlow
01-08-2017, 12:49 PM
I've never played any bball on a higher level than "unorganized"....

Humor me here, please.

Is it safe to say that Grayson knew, without a doubt, that he was 100% sure who was behind him at the time he was forced to regain his balance?

Owen Meany
01-08-2017, 01:18 PM
It is no longer a trip, by the way, in the rhetoric of ESPN. It is "contact to the groin area." I guess next we will find out Grayson was on the grassy knoll.

Yes, ESPN could not gain traction with a trip, so now they are looking to redefine what happened, even though no one saw it as "contact to the groin area" last night. Evidently the contact to the groin area did not stick either, so as of now on their College Basketball page it says "Grayson Allen appeared to use his leg to contact an opponent on Saturday" - seriously. I feel like I am reading The Onion.

Tripping William
01-08-2017, 01:28 PM
How much will we hear about Dennis Smith's trip of Theo Pinson? Take the under.

duke74
01-08-2017, 01:41 PM
I'm just humming an old Beattles song while I stay on topic. Got a good reason for taking the easy way out now

You missed the next line (or were alluding to it...)...She was a day tripper....

"Got a good reason for taking the easy way out
Got a good reason for taking the easy way out now

She was a day tripper, a one way ticket yea
It took me so long to find out, and I found out"

Dr. Rosenrosen
01-08-2017, 02:26 PM
Yes, ESPN could not gain traction with a trip, so now they are looking to redefine what happened, even though no one saw it as "contact to the groin area" last night. Evidently the contact to the groin area did not stick either, so as of now on their College Basketball page it says "Grayson Allen appeared to use his leg to contact an opponent on Saturday" - seriously. I feel like I am reading The Onion.
That is incredibly rude and unfair... to The Onion.

dukelifer
01-08-2017, 02:29 PM
The easy response to a UNC fan is that they're so scared of NCSU they had to cancel last night's game....i mean i would be afraid to if i lost to GT who got blown out by duke who got blown out by VT who got blown out by my next opponent...transitive property says NCSU wins this one by 103 points.

Or lose by 103- State pulls a State on this one

Stray Gator
01-08-2017, 02:30 PM
Mike DeCourcy brings a touch of sanity to the inanity:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/news/grayson-allen-tripping-video-duke-basketball-boston-college/cz4kfpmal32q1kdlow2m8exgn

slower
01-08-2017, 02:31 PM
http://grantland.com/features/mark-titus-top-12-ncaa-rankings-admitting-a-love-for-duke/

For anybody who has forgotten, or may not be aware, here's Grantland's Mark Titus, in an article written while Grayson was IN HIGH SCHOOL, proclaiming that:

"I know plenty of you are keeping the flames of Duke hatred burning, and I thank you for your service. And if you’re dreaming of a more appropriately loathsome Duke team next year, help is on the way. I’m fairly certain incoming freshman Grayson Allen will take fewer than 20 games to become the most hated player in college basketball."

There has NEVER been a player set up for hate like Grayson.

F the haters - all day long and twice on Sundays.

NashvilleDevil
01-08-2017, 02:46 PM
Mike DeCourcy brings a touch of sanity to the inanity:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/news/grayson-allen-tripping-video-duke-basketball-boston-college/cz4kfpmal32q1kdlow2m8exgn

Good piece. I like the line about Grayson being good at tripping people and if he wanted Tava on the groun then Tava would be on the ground.

jv001
01-08-2017, 02:56 PM
Good piece. I like the line about Grayson being good at tripping people and if he wanted Tava on the groun then Tava would be on the ground.

Too bad I can't spork DeCourcy. GoDuke!

YmoBeThere
01-08-2017, 02:57 PM
Just curious, was this before or after Tava's elbow to Marques Bolden's nose which drew blood?

dukelifer
01-08-2017, 03:04 PM
Just curious, was this before or after Tava's elbow to Marques Bolden's nose which drew blood?

Don't you know that Duke players are taught to smash their noses against opposing players elbows to draw blood?

porkpa
01-08-2017, 03:17 PM
I've watched it numerous times. It looks to me as thogh Grayson was the intended trippee, not the tripper.

DukieInKansas
01-08-2017, 03:20 PM
I can't believe people aren't talking more about his devious trip in the game. He made it look like the BC player tripped him so he could slide across the court and take out the BC player with the interesting hair. That was truly sneaky.
:D

ncexnyc
01-08-2017, 03:50 PM
Then there was the forcing/pushing out of the BC player which could have been really dangerous. Why did he do that? i feel bad even posting this because I don't want to add to the paranoia. But it is how I feel. Worried.

I have to admit that this was the play that came into my head when I saw this thread first go up. I honestly never noticed the so-called trip, but then I'm not a hater looking to scrutinize the kid's every move.

CDu
01-08-2017, 04:44 PM
Here's my take. First, I don't think this latest "incident" is way overblown because of Grayson's previous actions and because it's Duke. But here's something else I have noticed - and apologies if someone else has already made this observation here - but I think we have all seen how GA tends to be fairly demonstrative oftentimes when fouled. We've all see him flail his arms and even snap his head back in an exaggerated manner when he feels contact. I'm not saying he does it every time, but it happens a lot. Anyway, I am starting to think that perhaps Grayson's "flailing" includes his legs, too, and that rather than anything malicious toward other players, he simply has developed this habit of moving his body in ways so as to attempt to draw attention to the fact that he feels he was fouled.

Personally, I don't like it because it seems manufactured and as though he's trying to "sell the foul" to the refs. Yeah, yeah, I know - Grayson gets hacked and smacked and bumped and grabbed a lot and doesn't get the call, so perhaps he feels like he really has to sell it in order to get the ref to blow his whistle. I have no problem with that attitude but I do have a problem with the fact that Grayson (if this is in fact why he flails like he does) is spending any time or energy thinking about selling a foul when he should just focus on playing the game and the things over which he has control on the court.

It is a nice thought, and Allen certainly DOES flail to sell contact and try to draw fouls. But that isn't what was going on with the three trips. They were trips. Allen has admitted as such.

As for the latest "incident" yesterday, that one might have been him trying to sell a foul. Or it might have just been him getting knocked off balance. Or it might have been the start of a reflex trip that he caught himself doing before he completed it. Can't tell. Don't much care. Thankfully it wasn't a trip.

Ultrarunner
01-08-2017, 05:08 PM
You missed the next line (or were alluding to it...)...She was a day tripper...

"Got a good reason for taking the easy way out
Got a good reason for taking the easy way out now

She was a day tripper, a one way ticket yea
It took me so long to find out, and I found out"

Nope, nope, don't think I missed anything.

Might be commentary on the ease of click-bait hate.
Might be a reply to Tripping Williams.

jipops
01-08-2017, 05:32 PM
Mike DeCourcy brings a touch of sanity to the inanity:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/news/grayson-allen-tripping-video-duke-basketball-boston-college/cz4kfpmal32q1kdlow2m8exgn

DeCourcy is one of the only sane and objective ones left. Pretty much never goes for the drama and soap opera stories that are pushed by almost everyone else. Now he does come to the defense of Cal and UK a lot too, but I think he is very level headed about it.

DukeandMdFan
01-08-2017, 05:40 PM
It wasn't a good look.

I'm in the camp of people who have played a lot of basketball and believe that Grayson Allen makes plays that are not natural. I don't think he was trying to make the BC player fall to the floor, but I do think he was trying to get tangled up with him. Perhaps, he thought he was breaking up a pick and roll. It didn't look natural.

The BC player set a good pick. His feet weren't excessively wide. Basketball players know how to get around picks like that. It didn't appear to me that Grayson Allen was trying to get around the pick as quickly as possible. Purely speculation, but I suspect he gets around screens like this in practice without getting tangled up on a routine basis.

I agree that the play wouldn't have been noteworthy if it had any other player. But, Grayson Allen brought it on himself with previous incidents. The "indefinite suspension" of only one game makes him less sympathetic.

I think many of the great white basketball players from Duke were hated unfairly, but Grayson has earned it.

79-77
01-08-2017, 07:34 PM
Well, I hate to say it, but I think it was an intentional kick by GA.

Now, I also think the hysteria surrounding GA is just that -- he's not evil, or psychotic, or irredeemable. What he is, is a basketball player that gives, and takes, a normal amount of extra little shots as part of the very normal back-and-forth of competitive basketball.

However, his situation is unusual because (i) he uses his feet to do so, which is pretty unusual and (ii) he's a star player at Duke who's already gotten caught a few times -- so he can't get away with anything.

At this point I'd be pretty surprised if he doesn't get caught again.

I think the Duke coaching staff probably knows all this and they have to be telling him that they will have no choice but to suspend him if he gets caught again.

dukelifer
01-08-2017, 08:00 PM
Well, I hate to say it, but I think it was an intentional kick by GA.

Now, I also think the hysteria surrounding GA is just that -- he's not evil, or psychotic, or irredeemable. What he is, is a basketball player that gives, and takes, a normal amount of extra little shots as part of the very normal back-and-forth of competitive basketball.

However, his situation is unusual because (i) he uses his feet to do so, which is pretty unusual and (ii) he's a star player at Duke who's already gotten caught a few times -- so he can't get away with anything.

At this point I'd be pretty surprised if he doesn't get caught again.

I think the Duke coaching staff probably knows all this and they have to be telling him that they will have no choice but to suspend him if he gets caught again.
I would suspect that someone will likely tangle their legs with Grayson and fall down intentionally. Yesterday BC tried twice to trip Allen. If anything- will the league catch the players who will attempt to get Allen kicked out of a game.

Fish80
01-08-2017, 08:37 PM
I think many of the great white basketball players from Duke were hated unfairly, but Grayson has earned it.

I object. You are very wrong. Grayson had not earned hate.

Dr. Rosenrosen
01-08-2017, 08:54 PM
I'm still waiting for TMZ's, I mean ESPN's, in depth coverage of Uncheat's third NOA and the supporting evidence that continues to be unearthed. God I hate ESPN.

Duke79UNLV77
01-08-2017, 08:59 PM
At halftime of the wake-va game, Dino Gaudio very strongly opined that the latest "incident" involved no misconduct whatsoever and the fascination with it is ridiculous. I fully agree.

Furniture
01-08-2017, 09:10 PM
I object. You are very wrong. Grayson had not earned hate.

Maybe earned is not the right word but something close to it. Let's get real folks...

moonpie23
01-08-2017, 09:33 PM
yeah, you can bet he's "earned" the kind of hate that dunleavy earned against Az in 2001....

sagegrouse
01-08-2017, 11:27 PM
Maybe earned is not the right word but something close to it. Let's get real folks...

Why would anyone hate or even dislike a 21-year-old college kid, who was academic All-American (2nd team) AND basketball All-American (2nd and 3rd team) in 2016 AND All Final Four in 2015? Someone who is on track to graduate in three years. Off the court, he seems unfailingly polite and friendly. Sure, he's a fiery competitor, and that streak sometimes gets the best of him. But so what? No one has gotten hurt in his -- uhhh -- "unrehearsed non-basketball plays." Moreover, Grayson has never even once been kicked out of a game for a hard foul.

But hatred? Or even intense dislike?

Sounds to me like a really bad case of pure physical jealousy on the part of a bunch of adolescents, some on whom have passed age 50. (Not referring to you, Guv.)

Kindly,
Sage Grouse
'This is a Duke fan site, and by Jove, Duke players are gonna be defended here'

killerleft
01-08-2017, 11:47 PM
Maybe earned is not the right word but something close to it. Let's get real folks...

"What a world, what a world...", when a tripping incident can earn a basketball player the emotion of hate. If it has, then the hater has issues that scare me so much more than the perpetrator of three (or even four, or five) tripping incidents. Let's get real, indeed!

Are you sure you really want to be associated with a statement like that?

Sixthman
01-08-2017, 11:49 PM
At halftime of the wake-va game, Dino Gaudio very strongly opined that the latest "incident" involved no misconduct whatsoever and the fascination with it is ridiculous. I fully agree.

The E IN ESPN stands for entertainment and they intentional took a pass on including a j for journalism when they formed the enterprise. There's no money in telling the truth and even less if the truth favors duke. Every last one of these guys at espn or any place else is first and foremost a personality. They get paid based upon their popularity, not their propensity for telling the truth or shedding real insight on any subject. Trashing Grayson Allen attracts eyeballs and that's what all of these guys will be using to negotiate their next contract. Kudos to Gaudio for telling the truth this time, but they were making the Allen situation more dramatic and consequential than justifued all along. This is just a continuation of a theme. Furthermore, the University, Athletic Department and basketball program are ill disposed to defend this situation, even when it reaches the absurdity of this weekend's proctological examination of three seconds from the BC game.

Furniture
01-09-2017, 12:34 AM
"What a world, what a world...", when a tripping incident can earn a basketball player the emotion of hate. If it has, then the hater has issues that scare me so much more than the perpetrator of three (or even four, or five) tripping incidents. Let's get real, indeed!

Are you sure you really want to be associated with a statement like that?

Yes. Although I am a Duke and Grayson fan I see this fair and square through two eyes and not one.

burnspbesq
01-09-2017, 01:33 AM
Yes. Although I am a Duke and Grayson fan I see this fair and square through two eyes and not one.

When Grayson does this, you might have a semblance of an argument. Until then ...


https://youtu.be/8mBrlLVlmHw

Furniture
01-09-2017, 02:15 AM
When Grayson does this, you might have a semblance of an argument. Until then ...


https://youtu.be/8mBrlLVlmHw

Getting silly now. Of course you and Mourinho are correct. I am wrong and Grayson is innocent. Furniture out!

Pghdukie
01-09-2017, 03:56 AM
It surely will be interesting to see the Noles fan reaction on Tuesday. This will be Grayson's first true road game since being re-instated.

CDu
01-09-2017, 07:27 AM
"What a world, what a world...", when a tripping incident can earn a basketball player the emotion of hate. If it has, then the hater has issues that scare me so much more than the perpetrator of three (or even four, or five) tripping incidents. Let's get real, indeed!

Are you sure you really want to be associated with a statement like that?

To be fair, some folks on this board have stated their hate for Josh Jackson for far less than repeated tripping incidents.

OldPhiKap
01-09-2017, 07:43 AM
Haters gonna hate.

There are folks who hate [Duke][UNC][other]. Always will be.

There are folks who hate one or more specific players from [Duke][UNC][other]. Always will be.

Fair? Not really. Rational? Often not.

Part of sports? Yup.

While I agree that "hate" is a strong term, Grayson has put himself in the spotlight for such people with his antics. And yes, there are many who will overplay the incidents in the same way that there are those who unduly minimize it. He has a tough lesson in maturity right now and hope he handles it well.

Is it too strong to say that certain folks on this board hate UNC? Dean Smith? Specific UNC players, past or present? If not, I'm not sure why we would expect folks outside of our community to have similar feelings towards Duke, K, and our players too.

flyingdutchdevil
01-09-2017, 12:24 PM
"What a world, what a world...", when a tripping incident can earn a basketball player the emotion of hate. If it has, then the hater has issues that scare me so much more than the perpetrator of three (or even four, or five) tripping incidents. Let's get real, indeed!

Are you sure you really want to be associated with a statement like that?

Really? IMO, Redick was hated more than Grayson, and Redick didn't have any dirty plays/emotional outbursts. Understanding why people hate Grayson makes complete sense. If Grayson were on another ACC team, I'd have no problem putting him in the "highly dislike category". My hatred in sports is reserved for a select few, like Christiano Ronaldo, Deron Washington, and ARod. Most of the players I hate stem from the irrational, though (except for Christiano Ronaldo. Hating him is as rational as 1 + 1 = 2).

Hating is part of sports, rational or not.

jv001
01-09-2017, 12:28 PM
Really? IMO, Redick was hated more than Grayson, and Redick didn't have any dirty plays/emotional outbursts. Understanding why people hate Grayson makes complete sense. If Grayson were on another ACC team, I'd have no problem putting him in the "highly dislike category". My hatred in sports is reserved for a select few, like Christiano Ronaldo, Deron Washington, and ARod. Most of the players I hate stem from the irrational, though (except for Christiano Ronaldo. Hating him is as rational as 1 + 1 = 2).

Hating is part of sports, rational or not.

Sort of like hating the cheating tar holes. GoDuke!

alteran
01-09-2017, 12:42 PM
"What a world, what a world...", when a tripping incident can earn a basketball player the emotion of hate. If it has, then the hater has issues that scare me so much more than the perpetrator of three (or even four, or five) tripping incidents. Let's get real, indeed!

Are you sure you really want to be associated with a statement like that?

Agreed, but I strongly believe that tripping is just an unnecessarily convenient excuse. He was already heralded "the next greatly hated Duke player " well before he set foot on campus.

duke80
01-09-2017, 01:23 PM
Really? IMO, Redick was hated more than Grayson, and Redick didn't have any dirty plays/emotional outbursts. Understanding why people hate Grayson makes complete sense. If Grayson were on another ACC team, I'd have no problem putting him in the "highly dislike category". My hatred in sports is reserved for a select few, like Christiano Ronaldo, Deron Washington, and ARod. Most of the players I hate stem from the irrational, though (except for Christiano Ronaldo. Hating him is as rational as 1 + 1 = 2).

Hating is part of sports, rational or not.

No place for hate with Grayson, you are right. He needs to leave his fate up to the refs because that's where it lies. If Grayson is whistled for another flagrant or intentional, he is probably done. I think everyone is in agreement on this point. Until then, he is doing just fine and still playing his game under the guidance of the coaches. He deserves to be on the court as much as anyone else! As far as the haters and ESPN or whoever just laugh at them, to their face if possible.

sagegrouse
01-09-2017, 01:40 PM
... If Grayson is whistled for another flagrant or intentional, he is probably done. I think everyone is in agreement on this point. Until then, he is doing just fine and still playing his game under the guidance of the coaches. He deserves to be on the court as much as anyone else! As far as the haters and ESPN or whoever just laugh at them, to their face if possible.

As one who thinks the whole deal is "much ado about nothing" -- Flagrant 1 fouls, which are penalized by foul shots and ball possession and not by expulsion -- I strongly disagree with both your boldfaced statements. If there is another "intentional trip," then maybe a multi-game suspension. If another flagrant 1 foul, such as an elbow, then nothing other than the penalty on the court.

davekay1971
01-09-2017, 02:29 PM
I've had two people at work today, neither of whom follows college basketball closely, ask me about "that kid getting kicked off the team for tripping."

Yeesh.

Indoor66
01-09-2017, 02:31 PM
"He's a good kid but sometimes lets his temper get away from him. Unlike a lot of emotional players, however, he's never done anything like undercutting or kicking somewhere sensitive, or even come remotely close to hurting someone."

That didn't seem so hard.

It is completely obvious to me that you are neither sensitive nor concerned enough about this situation. Outrage is the only rational response to what Grayson is alleged to have done.:rolleyes::cool:

GGLC
01-09-2017, 02:49 PM
"He's a good kid but sometimes lets his temper get away from him. Unlike a lot of emotional players, however, he's never done anything like undercutting or kicking somewhere sensitive, or even come remotely close to hurting someone."

That didn't seem so hard.

Excellent post.

dukelifer
01-09-2017, 03:23 PM
No place for hate with Grayson, you are right. He needs to leave his fate up to the refs because that's where it lies. If Grayson is whistled for another flagrant or intentional, he is probably done. I think everyone is in agreement on this point. Until then, he is doing just fine and still playing his game under the guidance of the coaches. He deserves to be on the court as much as anyone else! As far as the haters and ESPN or whoever just laugh at them, to their face if possible.

Then the NCAA needs to change the rules. Here is the relevant rule on a trip. There is another on setting a wide screen which may have happened in the BC game. If there are other rules- please let me know

A player shall not hold, displace, push, charge, trip or impede the progress
of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s) or by bending
his own body into other than a normal position or by using any unreasonably
rough tactics.

A trip is equivalent to a push or a hold or a charge. So any player who commits a charge or a push or a hold should be held to the same standard by your logic. Do it more than 3 times in your career and you are out of basketball. Grayson uses his legs to impede players. It is not common but there is a clear rule for it. I am fine with making tripping an ejectable offense- but not until they change the rules. The rules are the rules. The only trip that was not called for - was the second- that was childish. In the other two trips- he tried to impede a player to make a move. He fouled- he fouled intentionally. Change the rule or stop treating tripping as some major violation.

billy
01-09-2017, 03:59 PM
Then the NCAA needs to change the rules. Here is the relevant rule on a trip. There is another on setting a wide screen which may have happened in the BC game. If there are other rules- please let me know

A player shall not hold, displace, push, charge, trip or impede the progress
of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s) or by bending
his own body into other than a normal position or by using any unreasonably
rough tactics.

A trip is equivalent to a push or a hold or a charge. So any player who commits a charge or a push or a hold should be held to the same standard by your logic. Do it more than 3 times in your career and you are out of basketball. Grayson uses his legs to impede players. It is not common but there is a clear rule for it. I am fine with making tripping an ejectable offense- but not until they change the rules. The rules are the rules. The only trip that was not called for - was the second- that was childish. In the other two trips- he tried to impede a player to make a move. He fouled- he fouled intentionally. Change the rule or stop treating tripping as some major violation.

Outstanding content. Really puts the media brouhaha into perspective. We should be seeding this information everywhere, into every conversation with those with alternate biases. Here's the link to the 2017 NCAA D1 Men's B-ball rule book:

http://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4397-2015-2016-and-2016-2017-ncaa-mens-basketball-rules-and-interpretations.aspx

You can download a PDF for free. The rule is on page 89.

CatDevil
01-09-2017, 04:18 PM
Then the NCAA needs to change the rules. Here is the relevant rule on a trip. There is another on setting a wide screen which may have happened in the BC game. If there are other rules- please let me know

A player shall not hold, displace, push, charge, trip or impede the progress
of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s) or by bending
his own body into other than a normal position or by using any unreasonably
rough tactics.

A trip is equivalent to a push or a hold or a charge. So any player who commits a charge or a push or a hold should be held to the same standard by your logic. Do it more than 3 times in your career and you are out of basketball. Grayson uses his legs to impede players. It is not common but there is a clear rule for it. I am fine with making tripping an ejectable offense- but not until they change the rules. The rules are the rules. The only trip that was not called for - was the second- that was childish. In the other two trips- he tried to impede a player to make a move. He fouled- he fouled intentionally. Change the rule or stop treating tripping as some major violation.

I tried the spork thing.... oh well:)

dukie’s_daughter
01-09-2017, 05:06 PM
I tried the spork thing... oh well:)

Gotcha covered!

MPandolfi
01-09-2017, 05:06 PM
Guess what the third topic on Around The Horn is today, following tonight's Bama/Clemson game, and the NFL Wild Card games?

Tom B.
01-09-2017, 05:19 PM
Guess what the third topic on Around The Horn is today, following tonight's Bama/Clemson game, and the NFL Wild Card games?

Here's a better question: Wait a minute, Around the Horn is still a thing?

Troublemaker
01-09-2017, 05:32 PM
Then the NCAA needs to change the rules. Here is the relevant rule on a trip. There is another on setting a wide screen which may have happened in the BC game. If there are other rules- please let me know

A player shall not hold, displace, push, charge, trip or impede the progress
of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s) or by bending
his own body into other than a normal position or by using any unreasonably
rough tactics.

A trip is equivalent to a push or a hold or a charge. So any player who commits a charge or a push or a hold should be held to the same standard by your logic. Do it more than 3 times in your career and you are out of basketball. Grayson uses his legs to impede players. It is not common but there is a clear rule for it. I am fine with making tripping an ejectable offense- but not until they change the rules. The rules are the rules. The only trip that was not called for - was the second- that was childish. In the other two trips- he tried to impede a player to make a move. He fouled- he fouled intentionally. Change the rule or stop treating tripping as some major violation.


Outstanding content. Really puts the media brouhaha into perspective. We should be seeding this information everywhere, into every conversation with those with alternate biases. Here's the link to the 2017 NCAA D1 Men's B-ball rule book:

http://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4397-2015-2016-and-2016-2017-ncaa-mens-basketball-rules-and-interpretations.aspx

You can download a PDF for free. The rule is on page 89.

I can help a little bit with this, I think. (Either that, or this post is ending up on SportsCenter tonight.)

This is a routine tripping foul (i.e. unintentional) that Grayson committed against UNLV. I bet nobody even remembers this foul or paid much notice to it when it first happened. But, after Elon and Trip #3, if any contact like this occurs going forward, it'll be scrutinized to death.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CloudyQuerulousKilldeer-size_restricted.gif

This is not a defense of intentional tripping, of course, but it maybe provides needed perspective/context. Basketball is a contact sport and legs get tangled and people fall routinely. On this play, both players fell.

Troublemaker
01-09-2017, 05:40 PM
The high-resolution version of the above foul is here (https://gfycat.com/CloudyQuerulousKilldeer).

MPandolfi
01-09-2017, 05:42 PM
Here's a better question: Wait a minute, Around the Horn is still a thing?

How else are people going to know Bob Ryan is still aliv?

curtis325
01-09-2017, 05:44 PM
The high-resolution version of the above foul is here (https://gfycat.com/CloudyQuerulousKilldeer).

Thanks for the post. The more I look at it, it seems that Grayson might have been tripped by the player setting the "pick".

sagegrouse
01-09-2017, 06:35 PM
The high-resolution version of the above foul is here (https://gfycat.com/CloudyQuerulousKilldeer).

I don't know what the ref called but the obvious foul was the moving screen by the UNLV player who set the pick. I.e., I agree with Curtis.

CDu
01-09-2017, 06:43 PM
I don't know what the ref called but the obvious foul was the moving screen by the UNLV player who set the pick. I.e., I agree with Curtis.

Bells ringing or something about evening poultry dishes.

devildeac
01-09-2017, 06:45 PM
The high-resolution version of the above foul is here (https://gfycat.com/CloudyQuerulousKilldeer).

Hmmm, nice moving screen/hip check by the UNLV player to run Grayson into the cutter. And yes, I'm serious here.

I see curtis and sage beat me to it. :o

Merlindevildog91
01-09-2017, 07:17 PM
So which was more important news on the talking heads tonight: a nothing play in a college basketball game, or an NFL assistant coach who got arrested after a wild card victory for five charges, including at least one felony for assaulting a police officer?

Here is an article on the less important story: http://www.si.com/nfl/2017/01/08/steelers-coach-joey-porter-arrested-altercation-police-officer

duke80
01-09-2017, 09:16 PM
Hmmm, nice moving screen/hip check by the UNLV player to run Grayson into the cutter. And yes, I'm serious here.

I see curtis and sage beat me to it. :o

Agreed that if he trips again he's got a problem. With that said, I think or rather would hope that the refs are sensitive to that fact.
If I were a ref, I would be very careful not to feed the mob mentality and possibly damage an otherwise promising career.

In fact, I think it may come to pass that someone is called for an intentional foul against Grayson for some obvious trip while he is running
down court for instance. Good post by someone early showing a video where Grayson was tripped running full speed down the court.
I can only imagine the heads exploding if this actually happened.

Does anyone have any insights to how refs might or should handle a situation like this? They always seem to try to be even minded and fair
in their dealings with players and calming things down when things get chippy, at least to me.

Kjeffrey
01-09-2017, 09:26 PM
I've had two people at work today, neither of whom follows college basketball closely, ask me about "that kid getting kicked off the team for tripping."

Yeesh.

A colleague of mine today said "A fourth trip, what is up with GA?" I asked him why everyone wants to talk about a non issue when there was a brawl in a women's game, an altercation between players and assistant coaches in a men's game and of course the Dillon Brooks groin shot.

duke4ever19
01-09-2017, 11:57 PM
Checked my Facebook and Grayson was trending. I was hoping he hadn't gotten injured in practice or something. But nah, it's the faux trip. Thanks FB, now my Gramma knows about it.

jacone21
01-11-2017, 12:52 AM
With all the verbal abuse, and booing, and internet witch hunting, at what point is it just not worth it to keep playing? I don't see how it can possibly be fun anymore. I think I would be tempted to just call it a season, get my degree, and take my chances in June. The alternative is to just get beat up again and again and again. Maybe Grayson can fight through it, but I've never seen anything like what's happening to him. I would be done.


MSN sports, second slide.

7067

richardjackson199
01-11-2017, 05:51 AM
It's also the lead story on ESPN's front page.

Grayson was diving full speed for a loose ball and was trying to push the coach out of the way so he didn't land on him. The context of the play matters. This was still a key time in the game when Grayson was trying to play hard to help his team win. The last thing on his mind was trying to go shove some random assistant coach. Yes I'm judging intent. Because all this click bait is certainly implying intent.

My advice to Grayson would be to go with some or several teammates to visit some peds oncology patients and give them autographed jerseys (along with the smiles and joy of a lifetime). Win over some new Duke fans to cheer for Duke, similar to what Adrian Payne and others have done. Recently someone posted pictures here where Grayson stopped, signed autographs, talked to, and cheered up somebody's kid. He made their day, and although I've never met him, I bet it made him feel good too. I bet it was more representative of his character than what is being incessantly portrayed.

What does this have to do with what is going on? Everything. Grayson made 3 serious and twice repeated mistakes. He was disciplined internally and served his suspension. But what he is going through in the media is grossly unfair and ludicrous. Grayson could think about how unfair and ridiculous it is, and he would be right. But that wouldn't change anything, and it wouldn't help him feel any better. More likely it could lead to ruminating, feelings of helplessness, anger, and worrying about what awful things might happen to his life the next time he bumps into anybody on the court. None of us, of course including me, could imagine what it would be like to be vilified by the national media like this literally now every time you play a game.

But feeling sorry for oneself for this predicament won't change it one iota and could hurt Grayson (or anybody) more emotionally. The distraction could worsen what he is trying to accomplish with his team.

Nothing beats self pity (even fully justified self pity) better than doing something wonderful and kind for someone else (like for example a little kid with cancer). (Or another example would be doing it with disadvantaged kids in a group home like Justise Winslow). For example Grayson could teach the kid(s) why sometimes it's even cooler to make a great assist than a great shot. And yes, why it's important to always play with good sportsmanship. Then when Grayson is being boo'd, he could smile and think about the joy he is bringing to those kids while he is swishing a 3, jamming it UNLV style, or making a sweet assist. Then make a return visit to the kid(s) after they watch his game, and ask for their feedback on his performance. He could be grateful for the talents he has to be able to be a part of something so meaningful and bigger than himself. And know that his talent, ability, and affiliation with a great program are why the media care so much (and why the haters click so gleefully).

Being part of something bigger than yourself always beats losing yourself to self pity.

Please note that I see no evidence that Grayson has any self pity. I'm just saying that any reasonable human being in his position would be expected to have plenty, and would be justified. But it would just make things worse and could be destructive. Beat an extremely negative distraction with an extremely positive distraction.

Then maybe you don't worry about it as much. You play to have fun, bring joy to your teammates, and bring joy to your biggest fans. That often brings joy to yourself.

Just one idea. Thankfully Grayson has the best sports psychologist in the game as his head coach.

NashvilleDevil
01-11-2017, 06:03 AM
This latest is nothing. Like the BC incident Duke haters are going through after the game to find anything on Grayson and then putting it on social media. This one will get zero traction either and then they'll do it again after Louisville.

MarkD83
01-11-2017, 06:12 AM
This latest is nothing. Like the BC incident Duke haters are going through after the game to find anything on Grayson and then putting it on social media. This one will get zero traction either and then they'll do it again after Louisville.

I was listening to Dino Gaudio do another game and the ESPN play-by-play flunky tried to bring up the Grayson Allen issue. In fact ESPN had video ready for the commentator even though the game was not a Duke game.

Dino immediately chastised him and said this is like hitting an ant with a sledgehammer. Dino actually sounded a bit irritated and almost hinted that the ESPN play by play guy didn't understand competition and should shut up.

The comments by Greenberg and Dino's comments and the fact that refs are not calling anything gives me hope that Grayson may have some defenders out there.

TKG
01-11-2017, 06:26 AM
If it weren't for the actual games, I would never watch ESPN. They spend more time trying to create stories than reporting. Grayson is the gift that keeps on giving to the TMZ-like programmers at ESPN.

luburch
01-11-2017, 07:05 AM
Thought it was pretty obvious that he pushed him out of the way to avoid smashing into him. Didn't go as planned. It doesn't mater what the intent of Grayson's actions are anymore. Everything he does is going to be magnified, because of his behavior to this point. Some of it, he has brought on himself, a lot of it has been generated by the media because it gets clicks.

Best we can hope for is that Grayson keeps his head down and just keeps playing hard. Block out as much of the noise as he can and try his best to use the rest as motivation.

MarkD83
01-11-2017, 07:29 AM
Skipper with his UNC connections knows that UNC is really in trouble. The 90 days to respond to the NCAA is coming up in early Feb. Therefore, he has directed everyone to keep the Grayson story going until after the 90 day response period so that ESPN once again can ignore the UNC issue.

So.....

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1vEOXyVEAAC_3K.jpg

NashvilleDevil
01-11-2017, 07:34 AM
Skipper with his UNC connections knows that UNC is really in trouble. The 90 days to respond to the NCAA is coming up in early Feb. Therefore, he has directed everyone to keep the Grayson story going until after the 90 day response period so that ESPN once again can ignore the UNC issue.

So....

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1vEOXyVEAAC_3K.jpg

I don't think it's a conspiracy. One of the storied programs cheats for a couple decades and the biggest sports channel has designated hours and web space vilifying a Duke player.

Duke79UNLV77
01-11-2017, 08:58 AM
With these last 2 "incidents," I think Grayson-hating has jumped the shark.

It's getting bad when the opposing fans loudly cheer when he takes a hard fall after what should have been an intentional foul, their fans throw ice at our student managers walking off at halftime right on camera and no one cares, and no one seems to care that he missed the last 5 1/2 minutes after being hit in the head and groin.

Ichabod Drain
01-11-2017, 09:13 AM
From the FSU assistant coach Dennis Gates:

https://twitter.com/coachdgates/status/819182695834062848

superdave
01-11-2017, 09:18 AM
From the FSU assistant coach Dennis Gates:

https://twitter.com/coachdgates/status/819182695834062848

Thanks for sharing this.

As The Rock would say to Espn, "I'm gonna take that tweet from Dennis Gates, turn it sideways, and stick it ......" Well, you get what The Rock would say.

Espn is pathetic.

TKG
01-11-2017, 09:23 AM
With these last 2 "incidents," I think Grayson-hating has jumped the shark.

It's getting bad when the opposing fans loudly cheer when he takes a hard fall after what should have been an intentional foul, their fans throw ice at our student managers walking off at halftime right on camera and no one cares, and no one seems to care that he missed the last 5 1/2 minutes after being hit in the head and groin.

I was thinking about this and wondering whether this intense scrutiny and ESPN/TMZ looking for malice in every action could have the unintended consequence of making Grayson a sympathetic figure. Then I came back into consciousness and realized this is a Duke player; not going to happen.

jv001
01-11-2017, 09:24 AM
It's also the lead story on ESPN's front page.

Grayson was diving full speed for a loose ball and was trying to push the coach out of the way so he didn't land on him. The context of the play matters. This was still a key time in the game when Grayson was trying to play hard to help his team win. The last thing on his mind was trying to go shove some random assistant coach. Yes I'm judging intent. Because all this click bait is certainly implying intent.

My advice to Grayson would be to go with some or several teammates to visit some peds oncology patients and give them autographed jerseys (along with the smiles and joy of a lifetime). Win over some new Duke fans to cheer for Duke, similar to what Adrian Payne and others have done. Recently someone posted pictures here where Grayson stopped, signed autographs, talked to, and cheered up somebody's kid. He made their day, and although I've never met him, I bet it made him feel good too. I bet it was more representative of his character than what is being incessantly portrayed.

What does this have to do with what is going on? Everything. Grayson made 3 serious and twice repeated mistakes. He was disciplined internally and served his suspension. But what he is going through in the media is grossly unfair and ludicrous. Grayson could think about how unfair and ridiculous it is, and he would be right. But that wouldn't change anything, and it wouldn't help him feel any better. More likely it could lead to ruminating, feelings of helplessness, anger, and worrying about what awful things might happen to his life the next time he bumps into anybody on the court. None of us, of course including me, could imagine what it would be like to be vilified by the national media like this literally now every time you play a game.

But feeling sorry for oneself for this predicament won't change it one iota and could hurt Grayson (or anybody) more emotionally. The distraction could worsen what he is trying to accomplish with his team.

Nothing beats self pity (even fully justified self pity) better than doing something wonderful and kind for someone else (like for example a little kid with cancer). (Or another example would be doing it with disadvantaged kids in a group home like Justise Winslow). For example Grayson could teach the kid(s) why sometimes it's even cooler to make a great assist than a great shot. And yes, why it's important to always play with good sportsmanship. Then when Grayson is being boo'd, he could smile and think about the joy he is bringing to those kids while he is swishing a 3, jamming it UNLV style, or making a sweet assist. Then make a return visit to the kid(s) after they watch his game, and ask for their feedback on his performance. He could be grateful for the talents he has to be able to be a part of something so meaningful and bigger than himself. And know that his talent, ability, and affiliation with a great program are why the media care so much (and why the haters click so gleefully).

Being part of something bigger than yourself always beats losing yourself to self pity.

Please note that I see no evidence that Grayson has any self pity. I'm just saying that any reasonable human being in his position would be expected to have plenty, and would be justified. But it would just make things worse and could be destructive. Beat an extremely negative distraction with an extremely positive distraction.

Then maybe you don't worry about it as much. You play to have fun, bring joy to your teammates, and bring joy to your biggest fans. That often brings joy to yourself.

Just one idea. Thankfully Grayson has the best sports psychologist in the game as his head coach.

What a thoughtful and appropriate post. It looks like Grayson is not having fun playing the game he loves to play and I can see why he would feel this way. First he was injured before the season began and then he trips a player for the third time. He get's suspended and loses his captaincy. He is asked to perform a job that he has not done in the past. Play the point and get others involved. All these things have affected his shot and his attitude. I wish he would do something like you mentioned in your post. Something positive. Getting Grayson back on track is second to getting everyone healthy on my list of things Duke needs to do in order to reach it's potential. For Duke to reach it's goal of Championships, Grayson must be the player he was in the past. GoDuke!

ikiru36
01-11-2017, 09:25 AM
From the FSU assistant coach Dennis Gates:

https://twitter.com/coachdgates/status/819182695834062848

Can I give sporkz to coach Gates? I do not have a twitter account but given some of the ways I have seen it used to spread lies, obfuscation and sophistry of late, glad to see that it can be a force for good and truth as well!

Thank you Coach Gates!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!! Go Blue Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dukelifer
01-11-2017, 09:35 AM
With these last 2 "incidents," I think Grayson-hating has jumped the shark.

It's getting bad when the opposing fans loudly cheer when he takes a hard fall after what should have been an intentional foul, their fans throw ice at our student managers walking off at halftime right on camera and no one cares, and no one seems to care that he missed the last 5 1/2 minutes after being hit in the head and groin.

It is unbelievable. Is Allen a public figure? Is shining this much light on a kid for profit grounds for libel? ESPN is ruining this kid with this constant and undeserved scrutiny.

PackMan97
01-11-2017, 09:37 AM
What a thoughtful and appropriate post. It looks like Grayson is not having fun playing the game he loves to play and I can see why he would feel this way.

Great googly moogly! The story after Allen pushing is "FSU's Xavier Rathan-Mayes glad for win over Duke after being tripped by Grayson Allen last season", seriously...that's what makes him happy? or what he was concerned about?

Despite a deep affection to Duke, (y'all got me interested in college basketball, saved the life of my dad and best friend in high school, routinely beat Carolina and overall piss off tarheel fans), I'm not one to feel sorry for Duke or your players when folks are picking on you...but dang, this Allen/Tripping thing is making a mountain out of a foothill. I've seen far worse from other players and it doesn't even get called for a foul let along get a big deal made out of it.

Oh well, I'm sorry for your loss. Better luck over the next two games and here is to hoping you guys lay in egg in three games :)

jv001
01-11-2017, 09:42 AM
Great googly moogly! The story after Allen pushing is "FSU's Xavier Rathan-Mayes glad for win over Duke after being tripped by Grayson Allen last season", seriously...that's what makes him happy? or what he was concerned about?

Despite a deep affection to Duke, (y'all got me interested in college basketball, saved the life of my dad and best friend in high school, routinely beat Carolina and overall piss off tarheel fans), I'm not one to feel sorry for Duke or your players when folks are picking on you...but dang, this Allen/Tripping thing is making a mountain out of a foothill. I've seen far worse from other players and it doesn't even get called for a foul let along get a big deal made out of it.

Oh well, I'm sorry for your loss. Better luck over the next two games and here is to hoping you guys lay in egg in three games :)

Somethings are way more important than players running around in shorts trying to put a little ball in a round basket. Prayers for your dad. Hope he's doing well. Oh, State is the team I root for after Duke, but I'll be rooting for the guys in blue and white and not the red and white in three games. GoDuke!

DukeandMdFan
01-11-2017, 09:48 AM
From the FSU assistant coach Dennis Gates:

https://twitter.com/coachdgates/status/819182695834062848

Very classy of Coach Dennis Gates.

Dr. Rosenrosen
01-11-2017, 09:56 AM
Great googly moogly! The story after Allen pushing is "FSU's Xavier Rathan-Mayes glad for win over Duke after being tripped by Grayson Allen last season", seriously...that's what makes him happy? or what he was concerned about?

Despite a deep affection to Duke, (y'all got me interested in college basketball, saved the life of my dad and best friend in high school, routinely beat Carolina and overall piss off tarheel fans), I'm not one to feel sorry for Duke or your players when folks are picking on you...but dang, this Allen/Tripping thing is making a mountain out of a foothill. I've seen far worse from other players and it doesn't even get called for a foul let along get a big deal made out of it.

Oh well, I'm sorry for your loss. Better luck over the next two games and here is to hoping you guys lay in egg in three games :)
Thanks PackMan... I appreciate your approach to posting on DBR -- it adds to the fun. No back handed compliments, no innuendo, no cheap shots. I was going to say for the benefit of others that this is board decorum 101 but then I realized that type of academic reference would likely fall on deaf ears for some.

devildeac
01-11-2017, 09:57 AM
Very classy of Coach Dennis Gates.

With a moderate # of the comments being totally clASSless. But, then again, take note of most of their names/avatar.

AnotherNYCDukeFan
01-11-2017, 10:16 AM
It boggles the mind that diving for a lose ball equates to "shoving a coach" in the second headline on the landing page. But I did get a little bit of satisfaction of just canceling my ESPN Insider subscription and giving the reason of "your organization's continued character assassination of Grayson Allen" for doing so.

Owen Meany
01-11-2017, 10:39 AM
This has gone well past being ridiculous. I brought up the ESPN clip - it still characterizes it as "Allen Shoves Assistant" - despite the fact that in the same article the coach says he did no such thing. The video rolls into additional videos - so far there have been 6 videos about Allen. In one they reenacted the BC non-trip where Greenberg, one of Allen's biggest critics, said it was nothing - but his colleague "wasn't buying it". Then 3 people (no idea who they are), who have deemed themselves masters of kinesiology, claiming that Allen had to make a voluntary effort to flex his hamstring. The lady then says he has anger-management problems and "there is something wrong with this kid" to "Take him out!" Etc, etc. This is insane. The label of the video from the BC game has changed from "trip", "kick", "use his leg to make contact" to finally "Should Allen be called out for RAISING HIS LEG" as ESPN struggles to find some caption and accusation that will gain traction.

The other day on "Around the Horn" they went after Allen for the BC non-incident (that again their own reporter has said was not a trip). After they all said he didn't deserve the benefit of the doubt, etc, etc, the guy asked about what Dillon Brooks did (much more violent, intended to hurt, etc). They all laughed and said something to the effect of "that is another story". He said something like "then why haven't you talked about IT non-stop for the last 24 hours." Next, they addressed the big fight in the women's NCAA game. They all laughed, a lot. They were clearly impressed ("men fight to look cool, women fight to hurt someone", "look at her coming off the bench", etc. With no sense of irony at all.

At this point, something needs to be done about ESPN. They are bullying this kid to a ridiculous degree. They are generating a tremendous amount of hate for a kid. If I were Allen's parents I seriously would not want him to go out on public beyond the Duke campus. I can not imagine the pressure this kid is under. The ACC and Duke should address this over-the-top reaction from ESPN. ESPN is using its very large platform to bully a kid relentlessly and it is not OK. And Bilas and Jay Williams should step in and say "enough is enough - ESPN needs to back off of this kid with its hysterical coverage."

DBFAN
01-11-2017, 10:39 AM
I just want to address what I believe is the elephant in the room here. I have a lot of doubt that if Bolden, or Giles, or Jackson had done this that it would be as big of a story. ESPN and other outlets have systematically used the racial tension this country is going thru for click bait. The same reason why they Barely Mention Dillion Brooks, because too much coverage of that would make them out to be racists. So instead keep going after a white "privileged" kid from Duke. This is the same scheme they used in the lacrosse case, and you would think they would have learned their lesson. Yes the trips were stupid, but from day one they made it out to be much much worse than it was. And hearing the stupid quote from the FSU kid about waiting for him since the trip is all the proof you need. There is no way that guy didn't know or remember his shove of Allen right before it, yet at no time has ESPN or anyone else mentioned that part. I mean if I'm not mistaken that happened at the end of a game that was already decided. It didn't cost them the game nor did it prevent that kid from playing well.
It also irritates me that Duke seems to have nobody going out there to stand up for him. Why is there nobody in a PR position to help with this. Is there nothing at this point that they can do to show that networks like ESPN are slandering a kid, and pretty much ruining his chance at a decent career at the next level. I really don't know if there is a better way to protect him or not, just curious.

MPandolfi
01-11-2017, 10:42 AM
It is unbelievable. Is Allen a public figure? Is shining this much light on a kid for profit grounds for libel? ESPN is ruining this kid with this constant and undeserved scrutiny.

While ESPN deserves the brunt of the criticism for putting these "stories" front and center, you'd be hard pressed to find a major (and minor) media outlet that isn't pumping out multiple articles. Obviously they're looking for clicks, but at what point does it reach its saturation point?

PackMan97
01-11-2017, 10:46 AM
Somethings are way more important than players running around in shorts trying to put a little ball in a round basket. Prayers for your dad. Hope he's doing well. Oh, State is the team I root for after Duke, but I'll be rooting for the guys in blue and white and not the red and white in three games. GoDuke!

That was back in 1990, the folks at Onslow Memorial couldn't figure it out so they drove him up to Duke and eventually gave him an angioplasty. He's had two heart surgeries, a half amputated foot, a small stroke and a pacemaker sense then...but it's been 26 years later and he's still ticking. As for the friend, he got his kidney's fixed around the same time and just last year need a transplant, but thankfully one of his brothers was able to help out and he's doing great as well.

thankfully, we haven't had to use Duke's services recently :)

Channing
01-11-2017, 10:55 AM
It also irritates me that Duke seems to have nobody going out there to stand up for him. Why is there nobody in a PR position to help with this. Is there nothing at this point that they can do to show that networks like ESPN are slandering a kid, and pretty much ruining his chance at a decent career at the next level. I really don't know if there is a better way to protect him or not, just curious.

Grayson's biggest defender is the FSU coah! #givegraysonabreak

https://twitter.com/coachdgates/status/819182695834062848/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

MarkD83
01-11-2017, 11:08 AM
This link is a little dated (May of 2016). However, if you need to generate revenue there is nothing like a self-created scandal to get a lot of screen-views that you can then use to show advertisers why your rates are going to increase.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/09/investing/disney-earnings-espn-star-wars/

Dr. Rosenrosen
01-11-2017, 11:13 AM
Dana O'Neil ESPN Senior Writer...

"Yes, this is Grayson Allen's new and self-made reality but it's also all of ours. If Florida State assistant coach Dennis Gates is not upset we shouldn't be either. But the Internet and social media breeds the pitchfork gathering and Allen is gong to be caught in the crosshairs of it all."

(emphasis added)

DUKIE V(A)
01-11-2017, 11:17 AM
Grayson's biggest defender is the FSU coah! #givegraysonabreak

https://twitter.com/coachdgates/status/819182695834062848/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw


Thank you for sharing. And thank you Coach Gates. Grayson has certainly made his share of mistakes but the bullying that is occurring in the media has got to stop. It is outrageous the microscope that Grayson is under, and even the strongest of people might fold under such scrutiny, hostility, and outright hatred. I can't say how Grayson is dealing with things off the court but his manner and performance on the court since his suspension has been astonishingly strong given all he is enduring. One can only hope Coach Gates' defense of Grayson will spare him the death penalty. Sheesh!

DukeFanSince1990
01-11-2017, 11:23 AM
Thank you for sharing. And thank you Coach Gates. Grayson has certainly made his share of mistakes but the bullying that is occurring in the media has got to stop. It is outrageous the microscope that Grayson is under, and even the strongest of people might fold under such scrutiny, hostility, and outright hatred. I can't say how Grayson is dealing with things off the court but his manner and performance on the court since his suspension has been astonishingly strong given all he is enduring. One can only hope Coach Gates' defense of Grayson will spare him the death penalty. Sheesh!

I wonder who gets paid to watch Duke games again in slow motion to find SOMETHING to try to pin on Grayson?

Fish80
01-11-2017, 11:23 AM
Duke University has a lot of lawyers. Time for our legal team to come to Grayson's defense. Sue ESPN, defamation of Grayson's character and reputation damage to Duke University.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-11-2017, 11:24 AM
Dana O'Neil ESPN Senior Writer...

"Yes, this is Grayson Allen's new and self-made reality but it's also all of ours. If Florida State assistant coach Dennis Gates is not upset we shouldn't be either. But the Internet and social media breeds the pitchfork gathering and Allen is gong to be caught in the crosshairs of it all."

(emphasis added)

I didn't realize the rest of the internet worked on a sporks system too.

DukieInKansas
01-11-2017, 11:24 AM
It boggles the mind that diving for a lose ball equates to "shoving a coach" in the second headline on the landing page. But I did get a little bit of satisfaction of just canceling my ESPN Insider subscription and giving the reason of "your organization's continued character assassination of Grayson Allen" for doing so.

I don't actually remember seeing the out of bounds play during the game but do remember the announcers comments at the time only had to do with GA taking out about 6 chairs on the bench. No mention of people.

They should go with what the coach involved said and leave it alone.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-11-2017, 11:26 AM
I just want to address what I believe is the elephant in the room here. I have a lot of doubt that if Bolden, or Giles, or Jackson had done this that it would be as big of a story. ESPN and other outlets have systematically used the racial tension this country is going thru for click bait. The same reason why they Barely Mention Dillion Brooks, because too much coverage of that would make them out to be racists. So instead keep going after a white "privileged" kid from Duke. This is the same scheme they used in the lacrosse case, and you would think they would have learned their lesson. Yes the trips were stupid, but from day one they made it out to be much much worse than it was. And hearing the stupid quote from the FSU kid about waiting for him since the trip is all the proof you need. There is no way that guy didn't know or remember his shove of Allen right before it, yet at no time has ESPN or anyone else mentioned that part. I mean if I'm not mistaken that happened at the end of a game that was already decided. It didn't cost them the game nor did it prevent that kid from playing well.
It also irritates me that Duke seems to have nobody going out there to stand up for him. Why is there nobody in a PR position to help with this. Is there nothing at this point that they can do to show that networks like ESPN are slandering a kid, and pretty much ruining his chance at a decent career at the next level. I really don't know if there is a better way to protect him or not, just curious.

I refuse to believe that race has anything to do with this. Name other "dirty" basketball players... Bruce Bowen, Draymond Green, Chris Paul...

Does ESPN have it out for Allen? Clearly. Has he earned some of the attention? Clearly. Does race even belong in this discussion?

alteran
01-11-2017, 11:46 AM
I wonder who gets paid to watch Duke games again in slow motion to find SOMETHING to try to pin on Grayson?

I suspect there are a lot of volunteers.

Then ESPN scours reddit.

Then they put up 4 stories, and the rest of the media follows ESPN's lead.

CDu
01-11-2017, 11:48 AM
I refuse to believe that race has anything to do with this. Name other "dirty" basketball players... Bruce Bowen, Draymond Green, Chris Paul...

Does ESPN have it out for Allen? Clearly. Has he earned some of the attention? Clearly. Does race even belong in this discussion?

The only argument against this is that Justise Winslow had almost an identical history to Allen's. If not worse. He scissor-locked Justin Anderson's legs in a similar-yet-worse fashion than Allen's trip of the Louisville player. He tripped Justin Jackson. And he kicked Brice Johnson in the nether regions. Yet he got almost no heat for his transgressions.

I'm not sure why Allen is so much more of a lightning rod. But I do suspect the combination of race and Duke has at least something to do with it.

That isn't to say that Allen doesn't deserve heat for what he has done in the past. He does. But he does seem to be getting much more heat than others with comparable track records got.

MChambers
01-11-2017, 11:49 AM
I refuse to believe that race has anything to do with this. Name other "dirty" basketball players... Bruce Bowen, Draymond Green, Chris Paul...

Does ESPN have it out for Allen? Clearly. Has he earned some of the attention? Clearly. Does race even belong in this discussion?

I think it does. How much grief did Justise get for two trips in 2015?

left_hook_lacey
01-11-2017, 11:51 AM
In a weird way, I believe this latest "incident" is going to have the reverse effect than what the Allen haters are hoping for. I mean, "Allen shoves FSU coach" is a huge headline with major implications that can attract even the most casual of fan(by design of course), only to have Joey Casual become disappointed with the non-eventful video footage. It makes the other, very real incidents that happened lose their sting because it starts to become diluted.

Too many more of these and I really believe people will start to think(as some on this board already do) that it was a witch hunt from the beginning. I think some(not all obviously) will actually start to feel sorry for the guy.

CDu
01-11-2017, 11:52 AM
I think it does. How much grief did Justise get for two trips in 2015?

Not to mention him kicking Brice Johnson in the groin area.

sagegrouse
01-11-2017, 11:56 AM
I just want to address what I believe is the elephant in the room here. I have a lot of doubt that if Bolden, or Giles, or Jackson had done this that it would be as big of a story. ESPN and other outlets have systematically used the racial tension this country is going thru for click bait. The same reason why they Barely Mention Dillion Brooks, because too much coverage of that would make them out to be racists. So instead keep going after a white "privileged" kid from Duke. This is the same scheme they used in the lacrosse case, and you would think they would have learned their lesson. Yes the trips were stupid, but from day one they made it out to be much much worse than it was. And hearing the stupid quote from the FSU kid about waiting for him since the trip is all the proof you need. There is no way that guy didn't know or remember his shove of Allen right before it, yet at no time has ESPN or anyone else mentioned that part. I mean if I'm not mistaken that happened at the end of a game that was already decided. It didn't cost them the game nor did it prevent that kid from playing well.
It also irritates me that Duke seems to have nobody going out there to stand up for him. Why is there nobody in a PR position to help with this. Is there nothing at this point that they can do to show that networks like ESPN are slandering a kid, and pretty much ruining his chance at a decent career at the next level. I really don't know if there is a better way to protect him or not, just curious.

I don't think it is a racial thing, and I would advise you to re-think your position. Grayson Allen is the most recognizable player in NCAA hoops, which is not necessarily connected to race.

cato
01-11-2017, 11:58 AM
Duke University has a lot of lawyers. Time for our legal team to come to Grayson's defense. Sue ESPN, defamation of Grayson's character and reputation damage to Duke University.

The best lawyers are the ones who advise you not to sue when it is a bad idea

billy
01-11-2017, 11:59 AM
Duke University has a lot of lawyers. Time for our legal team to come to Grayson's defense. Sue ESPN, defamation of Grayson's character and reputation damage to Duke University.

Better yet, get WikiLeaks or the Russians or both or someone else to hack ESPN servers to see what internal corporate communication is behind the Fake News. Would be really interesting if it came from the CEO

sagegrouse
01-11-2017, 12:00 PM
Here is what Dennis Gates said, per Jeff Goodman:

"Grayson Allen did not make a dirty play," Gates told ESPN on Wednesday morning. "That was not a dirty play. He plays hard, he dove after a loose ball. I should have been sitting down, but I wasn't. My intent was to absorb the contact. His hip hit my hip and that's what people aren't looking it. That's a basketball play. Not a dirty play."

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-11-2017, 12:01 PM
I think it does. How much grief did Justise get for two trips in 2015?

So, because another Duke player didn't get harassed by the media, it must be race? I don't follow your logic.

I am not trying to stoke anything here, I just legitimately don't understand the argument.

I mean "Laettner and JJ, but not Grant Hill" doesn't do it for me. Far too small of a sample size. Might as well suggest the reason for the difference is Grant's high top fade.

I really bristle at people injecting reverse racism - or any racism - into a coversation without binders of evidence.

freshmanjs
01-11-2017, 12:05 PM
So, because another Duke player didn't get harassed by the media, it must be race? I don't follow your logic.

I am not trying to stoke anything here, I just legitimately don't understand the argument.

I mean "Laettner and JJ, but not Grant Hill" doesn't do it for me. Far too small of a sample size. Might as well suggest the reason for the difference is Grant's high top fade.

I really bristle at people injecting reverse racism - or any racism - into a coversation without binders of evidence.

Who is the most hated black Duke player ever?

chrishoke
01-11-2017, 12:07 PM
Who is the most hated black Duke player ever?

Dante?

GGLC
01-11-2017, 12:08 PM
Who is the most hated black Duke player ever?

Shane, pretty clearly. (In my opinion.)

CDu
01-11-2017, 12:10 PM
So, because another Duke player didn't get harassed by the media, it must be race? I don't follow your logic.

I am not trying to stoke anything here, I just legitimately don't understand the argument.

I mean "Laettner and JJ, but not Grant Hill" doesn't do it for me. Far too small of a sample size. Might as well suggest the reason for the difference is Grant's high top fade.

I really bristle at people injecting reverse racism - or any racism - into a coversation without binders of evidence.

I hate talking about race, but race is unfortunately still an issue in society. I hope someday soon we get to a point where it is not. But I don't think we're there yet.

If you have an alternative explanation in this case, I'd be all for it. I'd much rather it be something other than race that caused Winslow's two trips to not get national attention but Allen's two trips to cause a national campaign. Or Winslow's third incident to go briefly discussed locally but Allen's third trip to cause a media meltdown.

I would say that race (especially considering that more than one article has been written about Allen being "Duke's next hated white player") is as good a theory as any. And without evidence AGAINST, it seems just as reasonable to discuss it as a possibility as any other.

sagegrouse
01-11-2017, 12:13 PM
Who is the most hated black Duke player ever?

Dahntay

flyingdutchdevil
01-11-2017, 12:15 PM
Dahntay

Interesting. I had no idea that Dahntay was even hated that much! (in fairness, I didn't follow college ball then)

davekay1971
01-11-2017, 12:17 PM
Here is what Dennis Gates said, per Jeff Goodman:

And this should be the end of discussion. Of course, it won't be. Blind hatred has never yet let facts get in the way of a good theory.

Anyway, I'm sure Coach K paid Coach Gates to say that :rolleyes:

CDu
01-11-2017, 12:17 PM
Interesting. I had no idea that Dahntay was even hated that much! (in fairness, I didn't follow college ball then)

I don't think Dahntay Jones is the correct answer. If I had to guess, it would be Battier, followed by Henderson (specifically for the Hansbrough thing). I doubt anyone else is remotely close.

kmspeaks
01-11-2017, 12:18 PM
Dana O'Neil ESPN Senior Writer...

"Yes, this is Grayson Allen's new and self-made reality but it's also all of ours. If Florida State assistant coach Dennis Gates is not upset we shouldn't be either. But the Internet and social media breeds the pitchfork gathering and Allen is gong to be caught in the crosshairs of it all."

(emphasis added)

Little too late, in my opinion, to hear from her or Greenberg even if they are coming to Grayson's defense now. They were leading the charge and aren't going to get any credit from me for laying down their pitchforks after the fact.

freshmanjs
01-11-2017, 12:20 PM
I don't think Dahntay Jones is the correct answer. If I had to guess, it would be Battier, followed by Henderson (specifically for the Hansbrough thing). I doubt anyone else is remotely close.

In any case, I don't think anyone would be above Redick, Laettner, Wojo, Allen, or even Collins. There was also the story in 2015 that "this Duke team is actually likeable." Why might that have been?

rasputin
01-11-2017, 12:20 PM
Duke University has a lot of lawyers. Time for our legal team to come to Grayson's defense. Sue ESPN, defamation of Grayson's character and reputation damage to Duke University.

Such a lawsuit goes absolutely nowhere. Grayson Allen is a "public figure," and it is nearly impossible for a public figure to win a defamation case, especially against a media defendant. Even if such a case is won by the plaintiff at the trial level, it is more often than not reversed at the appellate level.

flyingdutchdevil
01-11-2017, 12:22 PM
I don't think Dahntay Jones is the correct answer. If I had to guess, it would be Battier, followed by Henderson (specifically for the Hansbrough thing). I doubt anyone else is remotely close.

Don't know about Battier, but Henderson wasn't hated at all. Sure, he may have been labelled a dirty player for a few months after the forearm to the nose, but Henderson was on that team with Scheyer and Paulus, two players frequently targeted by opposing fan bases. That's just too much hate to add a third player!

CDu
01-11-2017, 12:22 PM
Little too late, in my opinion, to hear from her or Greenberg even if they are coming to Grayson's defense now. They were leading the charge and aren't going to get any credit from me for laying down their pitchforks after the fact.

Yeah, O'Neil gets little slack from me given that she wrote the "Is Grayson Allen Duke's next hated white player?" article that was prominently displayed on ESPN. That has helped propel this thing for sure.

Titus wrote a sidebar in one of his columns noting that the high school Allen would be Duke's next hated white guy, but that was just a one-sentence throw-in about an unknown kid in a lower-profile article.

I'm glad she has been backing off of late, but she had a LOT to do with this getting so big.

DBFAN
01-11-2017, 12:24 PM
So, because another Duke player didn't get harassed by the media, it must be race? I don't follow your logic.

I am not trying to stoke anything here, I just legitimately don't understand the argument.

I mean "Laettner and JJ, but not Grant Hill" doesn't do it for me. Far too small of a sample size. Might as well suggest the reason for the difference is Grant's high top fade.

I really bristle at people injecting reverse racism - or any racism - into a coversation without binders of evidence.

This isn't without Binders, and the sample size is not small at all. There have been plenty of players at Duke to get away or attempt a dirty move, every college program has that. But tell me the ones you remember. I bet you money that Laettner, and Allen are the first ones to come to mind. Not because I think fans or you or anyone else is racist, but because ESPN and other media outlets only shove them down our throat. It is not by chance that the most hated players at Duke have been Allen,JJ, Paulus, Laettner, Hurley. Dahnte who is one of my all time fav Duke players. He was also one of the most smack talking players we ever had. Nobody cared when he did it tho. I for one wished all of our players had his attitude but they don't. But when a kid like Allen or Hurley do have that kind of attitude, swag, or whatever you want to call it, you can be sure Dana will have an article waiting to show how evil they are. We can chose to believe that people like ESPN don't do this intentionally, but you would have little room to complain when it happens again and again and again. I don't mind disagreement about this, but sports networks have given very little evidence that they aren't doing this. Allen now has more attention and scrutiny than Jameis Winston did, I mean I can't even fathom that

Troublemaker
01-11-2017, 12:27 PM
I mean "Laettner and JJ, but not Grant Hill" doesn't do it for me. Far too small of a sample size. Might as well suggest the reason for the difference is Grant's high top fade.

I really bristle at people injecting reverse racism - or any racism - into a coversation without binders of evidence.

I don't see a sample size issue. The vast majority of Duke basketball players are black. The vast majority of hated Duke basketball players are white.

I wouldn't call that "reverse racism" -- and maybe that's your hangup -- but I would say there's a racial aspect to Duke hatred. Racial, not racist, nor "reverse racist."

DBFAN
01-11-2017, 12:28 PM
Duke University has a lot of lawyers. Time for our legal team to come to Grayson's defense. Sue ESPN, defamation of Grayson's character and reputation damage to Duke University.

Unfortunately unless Duke had eveidence, a smoking gun if you will, showing that ESPN intentionally went after him (even tho we know they are) they wouldn't have a case

CDu
01-11-2017, 12:29 PM
In any case, I don't think anyone would be above Redick, Laettner, Wojo, Allen, or even Collins. There was also the story in 2015 that "this Duke team is actually likeable." Why might that have been?

Agreed. And don't forget Paulus. Or Scheyer, who shockingly got hated on despite being about as vanilla as humanly possible.

flyingdutchdevil
01-11-2017, 12:29 PM
I don't see a sample size issue. The vast majority of Duke basketball players are black. The vast majority of hated Duke basketball players are white.

I wouldn't call that "reverse racism" -- and maybe that's your hangup -- but I would say there's a racial aspect to Duke hatred. Racial, not racist, nor "reverse racist."

Can I modify your quote:


The vast majority of basketball players are black. The vast majority of hated basketball players are white.

This isn't a Duke thing. Now, Duke players are likely hated more because of more exposure. The exposure is a Duke thing. The hatred is not.

flyingdutchdevil
01-11-2017, 12:31 PM
Agreed. And don't forget Paulus. Or Scheyer, who shockingly got hated on despite being about as vanilla as humanly possible.

I never got the Scheyer thing either. And, after speaking with anti-Duke friends, they couldn't give me a response other than Scheyer-face, which is really funny regardless of your allegiance/hatred of basketball players.

DBFAN
01-11-2017, 12:32 PM
Can I modify your quote:



This isn't a Duke thing. Now, Duke players are likely hated more because of more exposure. The exposure is a Duke thing. The hatred is not.

I can see what you are saying and I think there is truth to it. But while a lot of programs have had a white guy that was hated, I fail to see any other program with multiple hated white players. And if we say It's exposure, well who is creating all that exposure...

flyingdutchdevil
01-11-2017, 12:36 PM
I can see what you are saying and I think there is truth to it. But while a lot of programs have had a white guy that was hated, I fail to see any other program with multiple hated white players. And if we say It's exposure, well who is creating all that exposure...

When I think of players in the last 10 or so years who are disliked, the overwhelming are white: Allen, Hansborough, Paulus, Aaron Craft, Devendorf, Marshall Henderson...

Marcus Smart and Joakim Noah are two of the few hated players who aren't white.

CDu
01-11-2017, 12:37 PM
I don't see a sample size issue. The vast majority of Duke basketball players are black. The vast majority of hated Duke basketball players are white.

I wouldn't call that "reverse racism" -- and maybe that's your hangup -- but I would say there's a racial aspect to Duke hatred. Racial, not racist, nor "reverse racist."

100% agreed. I find it hard to believe that there isn't a racial component to the degree of scrutiny Allen has gotten. Especially compared to Winslow.

And I especially find it hard to believe when these things are written in the mainstream media:
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14644805/grayson-allen-being-hated-white-player-duke-blue-devils
http://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/story/jj-redick-grayson-allen-duke-hate-030816
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2016/03/17/the-mount-rushmore-of-hated-duke-players/?utm_term=.fe643b18ff67

Look, racism makes me uncomfortable too. And I really wish/hope race has nothing to do with this. But it seems really hard to believe that race isn't at least a part of it given the articles above and the parallels with his contemporary Winslow.

Owen Meany
01-11-2017, 12:43 PM
I refuse to believe that race has anything to do with this. Name other "dirty" basketball players... Bruce Bowen, Draymond Green, Chris Paul...

Does ESPN have it out for Allen? Clearly. Has he earned some of the attention? Clearly. Does race even belong in this discussion?

Is Grayson Allen the next hated white Duke player?

And, of course, Allen is a white guy in a Duke uniform, the latest vessel, the reincarnation of Christian Laettner, Chris Collins, Steve Wojciechowski, J.J. Redick, Greg Paulus and Jon Scheyer. The personas are interchangeable, and equally hard to like.

...


"No other black player from any other school is hated as much as a white player from Duke,'' former Duke point guard Jay Williams said. "None.''

...

Through graduations and championship dry spells, from the era of four-year players to the rise of the one-and-done, people still see a talented, white Duke player, and it raises their ire.

...

"America, in particular, likes their cowboys to wear white and their villains to wear black,'' Battier said. "When you buck that narrative, it confuses people... And then guys like Grayson, we want our athletes to be this hulking, uber-athletic-looking person like LeBron [James]. [Allen] doesn't fit the idea, either.''


Grant Hill says people hate Duke basketball because ‘we’ve had a lot of really good white players’
Grant Hill, perhaps the least despised player to ever suit up for Duke, cleared up (or maybe he just made it more muddled) the matter of why so many people hate Duke.

“We’ve had a lot of really good white players,” Hill said. “I think that plays a role.”

Who knew Hill was so open to pulling the race card?

Hill also observed that most of the fans doing the booing when Duke came to town seemed to share the same skin color (white) as some of the players on Duke, calling it “white on white hate.”


I'm always amazed that Jon Scheyer is always listed as a most-hated Duke player. Scheyer kept his mouth shut, never acted cocky and gave no offense to anyone ever.

jacone21
01-11-2017, 12:56 PM
Scheyer kept his mouth shut

Well, sorta.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-11-2017, 12:58 PM
Well, let's all hope and pray that one day a black Duke player will be hated. Then we will have truly achieved equality.

Part of Grayson's media attention is because he plays at Duke. Part is manufactured controversy. Part is earned negative attention.

What Grayson chooses to do with this attention and this spotlight from this point forward is up to him. How the media covers him is something we can't control and I refuse to worry over.

I am MUCH more interested and concerned about how Allen treats this situation than I am in how the media chooses to frame the narrative.

El_Diablo
01-11-2017, 01:03 PM
In addition to the various examples above, when showing the Grayson Allen monster dunk against UNLV as the #1 play of the day, Sportscenter anchors also asserted that "Duke now has two villains--Grayson Allen and Luke Kennard." This was before the Elon trip and before Kennard...um...I'm drawing a blank....what has Kennard ever done to be labelled by members of the media as a "villain" exactly?

I think people are being naive if they think race has nothing to do with this type of attitude.

devildeac
01-11-2017, 01:06 PM
I don't actually remember seeing the out of bounds play during the game but do remember the announcers comments at the time only had to do with GA taking out about 6 chairs on the bench. No mention of people.

They should go with what the coach involved said and leave it alone.

Maybe the @#$clowns at espn could pile on some more and ask the tallahassee police (cough) to arrest and/or extradite Grayson for destruction of public property, too.

:rolleyes:

devildeac
01-11-2017, 01:08 PM
Who is the most hated black Duke player ever?

Ewing, well, maybe not hated...

:rolleyes:

Troublemaker
01-11-2017, 01:11 PM
Well, let's all hope and pray that one day a black Duke player will be hated. Then we will have truly achieved equality.

Part of Grayson's media attention is because he plays at Duke. Part is manufactured controversy. Part is earned negative attention.

What Grayson chooses to do with this attention and this spotlight from this point forward is up to him. How the media covers him is something we can't control and I refuse to worry over.

I am MUCH more interested and concerned about how Allen treats this situation than I am in how the media chooses to frame the narrative.

Sarcasm and straw men mean you have conceded the point. Good.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-11-2017, 01:18 PM
Sarcasm and straw men mean you have conceded the point. Good.

Yes, I have resolved to no longer question that Allen is hated because he is white. Thanks for the tutorial.

Given that, I moved on to discussing what actually matters in this thread and ignoring the question of race to focus on how Grayson might best navigate the rest of this season, for the betterment of himself and Duke basketball. Perhaps the rest of us could do the same, but I doubt it.

I promise not to mention race for the rest of the season.

jv001
01-11-2017, 01:20 PM
I hate talking about race, but race is unfortunately still an issue in society. I hope someday soon we get to a point where it is not. But I don't think we're there yet.

If you have an alternative explanation in this case, I'd be all for it. I'd much rather it be something other than race that caused Winslow's two trips to not get national attention but Allen's two trips to cause a national campaign. Or Winslow's third incident to go briefly discussed locally but Allen's third trip to cause a media meltdown.

I would say that race (especially considering that more than one article has been written about Allen being "Duke's next hated white player") is as good a theory as any. And without evidence AGAINST, it seems just as reasonable to discuss it as a possibility as any other.

I'm with you, I don't like talking about race either. But I'm afraid it plays a part in the Duke hate and especially in Grayson's case. I can't add to what others have said on this topic. Except, I think before the season's over, we will see it grow more and more. Every time Duke goes on the road, he'll here the boos and chants. I'm just glad we're not playing the Twerps on the road this season. GoDuke!

wk2109
01-11-2017, 01:20 PM
Sports Illustrated tweeted this earlier today, linking to a January 2016 article that's very positive about Grayson:

Sports Illustrated ‏@SInow 1h1 hour ago
FLASHBACK: The other side of Grayson Allen. How a childhood bond shaped Duke's embattled star http://on.si.com/2j6waLt

CDu
01-11-2017, 01:25 PM
Yes, I have resolved to no longer question that Allen is hated because he is white. Thanks for the tutorial.

Given that, I moved on to discussing what actually matters in this thread and ignoring the question of race to focus on how Grayson might best navigate the rest of this season, for the betterment of himself and Duke basketball. Perhaps the rest of us could do the same, but I doubt it.

I promise not to mention race for the rest of the season.

This is a message board. Nothing really "matters" on this board. It's all just our discussion on topics that we find interesting or relevant. You personally don't find the "why" interesting or relevant, or at least don't feel comfortable talking about the "why". That's fine. Some may not find the "how to navigate it" interesting, but do find the "why" interesting. And that's fine. Any solutions to how to navigate it aren't going to affect the situation, because the coaching staff and Allen are the ones doing that. It's all just discussion for our entertainment. You take what you find interesting and discuss it, others take what they find interesting and discuss it. Neither is inherently any more appropriate than the other, so long as we all discuss respectfully whatever we discuss.

Personally, I think the answer to "how to navigate it" is two-fold:
- There is no fixing the hate. That isn't going away as long as he's in college. That stinks for him, but that is what it is.
- The only things he can do to minimize it are either to quit basketball or to not do it again.

It's really that simple. There is no interesting discussion of how to fix the problem. Either he stops tripping people or he stops playing basketball. End of story.

Owen Meany
01-11-2017, 01:32 PM
When I think of players in the last 10 or so years who are disliked, the overwhelming are white: Allen, Hansborough, Paulus, Aaron Craft, Devendorf, Marshall Henderson...

Marcus Smart and Joakim Noah are two of the few hated players who aren't white.

Actually, Noah is mixed race, with a white mother. Your comment made me think of the "Most Hated Basketball Player from the Last 30 Years" bracket that Grant Land did.

19 of 32 players overall, 11 of the final 16, 7 of the final 8, and all of the final four are either white or have one white parent.

So I do not think it is far-fetched to suggest their is a racial aspect to this. And as Grant Hill pointed out in a quote I posted earlier, a very large portion of this is white fans. I would think there are a lot of people (and organizations - ESPN) who might be reluctant to express irrational hatred over someone of another race because it might raise uncomfortable questions about their motives and underlying thought process.

Dahntay Jones made Grayson Allen look like a choir boy. If Allen did pushups over a prone player I am confident that people would be extremely upset. But I still hear Duke fans praise that play as one of Duke's greatest dunks ever. And Jone's chippy play should have lost him the benefit of the doubt more than Allen. But Jones' back screen that broke the jaw of another player did not get 1/100 of the play that Allen's non-trip against BC did.

*Please note, I do not think Jones broke Gray's jaw on purpose. But I do think it fit in with a pattern of physical play. But it is very likely that many readers here do not even know what play I am talking about.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-11-2017, 01:35 PM
This is a message board. Nothing really "matters" on this board. It's all just our discussion on topics that we find interesting or relevant. You personally don't find the "why" interesting or relevant, or at least don't feel comfortable talking about the "why". That's fine. Some may not find the "how to navigate it" interesting, but do find the "why" interesting. And that's fine. Any solutions to how to navigate it aren't going to affect the situation, because the coaching staff and Allen are the ones doing that. It's all just discussion for our entertainment. You take what you find interesting and discuss it, others take what they find interesting and discuss it. Neither is inherently any more appropriate than the other, so long as we all discuss respectfully whatever we discuss.

Personally, I think the answer to "how to navigate it" is two-fold:
- There is no fixing the hate. That isn't going away as long as he's in college. That stinks for him, but that is what it is.
- The only things he can do to minimize it are either to quit basketball or to not do it again.

It's really that simple. There is no interesting discussion of how to fix the problem. Either he stops tripping people or he stops playing basketball. End of story.

I agree the hate isn't going away easily. Short of him pulling over on the way home from practice to save a bus of orphans who have fallen in an icy river, he is who he is.

More to the point, the attention isn't going away. He can still write his own narrative moving forward. If everyone in the world is focusing their lens on you waiting for your next mistake, you do have an opportunity to show them something else. My hope is that he chooses this path.

And, it is remarkable how after coming back from his suspension he has already found himself in two compromising situations. He is eithee incredibly unlucky, or dense. His nose has to be clean and sterilized like he is going into surgery.

dukelifer
01-11-2017, 01:39 PM
It's really that simple. There is no interesting discussion of how to fix the problem. Either he stops tripping people or he stops playing basketball. End of story.

This the situation but nonetheless unfair. Someone has made tripping equivalent to fighting. It is not, by rule. There are clear rules about tripping and what to be done about it. It is equivalent to pushing or holding, which I see every single game.

Bluedog
01-11-2017, 01:40 PM
Who is the most hated black Duke player ever?

Grantland actually did a public poll of most hated college bball players back in 2013 and there is a dedicated "Duke bracket" -- the rest are 80s, 90s, and 00s.

Duke guys in the 8 slots are 1. Laettner, 2. Redick, 3. Ferry, 4. Wojo, 5. Battier, 6. Austin Rivers, 7. Hurley, and 8 Paulus. Wojo took out Battier easily as more hated although Rivers toppled Ferry (and then "lost" to JJ). (Although Austin is half white too and admittedly these things skew towards recency so Ferry didn't stand a chance). So, Grantland voted Battier/Rivers.

Among the rest of the NCAA, Grantload chose 7/8 black players as most hated for the 80s, 6/8 black players for the 90s, and 1.5/8 players for the 00s (Joakim Noah is biracial). So, for whatever reason, they skewed as most hated nowadays in the internet age as white whereas they did not go that direction for earlier decades. From those choices (field is 15 black guys, 15 white guys, and 2 biracial unless I'm off somewhere as I admittedly don't know the backgrounds of every player), the public voted 5 white guys, 2 black guys, and 1 biracial guy for their Elite 8, 3/4 white guys for Final 4, 2 white guys in final, and white guy champion (Laettner of course). Hardly scientific and not a large sample size, but still found it amusing...

https://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/grant_e_bracket_hatedplayersfinal11.jpg

scottdude8
01-11-2017, 01:46 PM
Considering the nonsense about Grayson doesn't seem like it's going to end, and every time he breathes on someone, even if it is in a basketball play, will be analyzed in super slow-mo on ESPN, doesn't this thread need a new title so that everyone clearly knows what it regards?

Some (tongue in cheek) ideas:
-Dog bites man, and ESPN hates Grayson—Discuss!
-The latest Grayson hot takes and the more logical answers
-Grayson Allen is a 21 year old young man. Why does the world think he is evil incarnate?

In all seriousness, it's getting harder and harder to tune the Grayson chatter out, and it's seriously affecting how much I'm enjoying this basketball season. Despite the team's talent and how much fun this team should be with the combination of youth and great senior leadership, this may be the season I'm having the least fun following since I officially became a Duke student. And that saddens me to no end. I'm also becoming more and more concerned for Grayson's well being considering how he was treated last night.

Also, I do really think the thread needs a title change, since it isn't clear that this is the appropriate space to go to discuss the latest Grayson story. Just a thought mods.

DukeGirl4ever
01-11-2017, 01:52 PM
In a weird way, I believe this latest "incident" is going to have the reverse effect than what the Allen haters are hoping for. I mean, "Allen shoves FSU coach" is a huge headline with major implications that can attract even the most casual of fan(by design of course), only to have Joey Casual become disappointed with the non-eventful video footage. It makes the other, very real incidents that happened lose their sting because it starts to become diluted.

Too many more of these and I really believe people will start to think(as some on this board already do) that it was a witch hunt from the beginning. I think some(not all obviously) will actually start to feel sorry for the guy.

THIS is a lot of what I am seeing happen. I have had 3 friends, who are "basketball people" and not your average fans, tell me that they are actually rooting for Allen now because of all these ridiculous accusations. All 3 of these friends said they started the season thinking Grayson was a whiny Duke player, but they are all slowly becoming Grayson fans.

Unfortunately, the jealousy from people who have never played a sport nor have an ounce of athleticism in their body is quite real.
And, yes...I do think the fact that he's a "pasty white boy" plays in to this discussion.

grad_devil
01-11-2017, 01:52 PM
Was anyone else holding their breath when this happened?

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FrigidLateBabirusa-size_restricted.gif

Owen Meany
01-11-2017, 01:54 PM
Grantland actually did a public poll of most hated college bball players back in 2013 and there is a dedicated "Duke bracket" -- the rest are 80s, 90s, and 00s.

Duke guys in the 8 slots are 1. Laettner, 2. Redick, 3. Ferry, 4. Wojo, 5. Battier, 6. Austin Rivers, 7. Hurley, and 8 Paulus. Wojo took out Battier easily as more hated although Rivers toppled Ferry (and then "lost" to JJ). (Although Austin is half white too and admittedly these things skew towards recency so Ferry didn't stand a chance). So, Grantland voted Battier/Rivers.

Among the rest of the NCAA, Grantload chose 7/8 black players as most hated for the 80s, 6/8 black players for the 90s, and 1.5/8 players for the 00s (Joakim Noah is biracial). So, for whatever reason, they skewed as most hated nowadays in the internet age as white whereas they did not go that direction for earlier decades. From those choices (field is 15 black guys, 15 white guys, and 2 biracial unless I'm off somewhere as I admittedly don't know the backgrounds of every player), the public voted 5 white guys, 2 black guys, and 1 biracial guy for their Elite 8, 3/4 white guys for Final 4, 2 white guys in final, and white guy champion (Laettner of course). Hardly scientific and not a large sample size, but still found it amusing...

https://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/grant_e_bracket_hatedplayersfinal11.jpg

FWIW, Rick Fox (who made it through to the Final 4) is biracial also.

TexHawk
01-11-2017, 01:55 PM
Who is the most hated black Duke player ever?

As a fan of a nonconference national rival, it's Laettner and 2nd place is not even close. That's not my personal opinion, just the strong vibe amongst my fanbase/conference members. Nothing against Dahntay Jones, who had a much longer pro career than I would have ever imagined, I almost forgot that he was a Duke player. 2nd place is probably Redick, and he would be a lot higher if he had won 2 titles like Laettner did. The Laettner hate was ratcheted up from being the best player on the best team in the sport. 3rd place is Jay Williams, but a lot of that is colored by his ESPNness these days.

I am flabbergasted that anyone could hate Shane Battier or Jon Scheyer.


P.S. As far as Big8/12 most hated players. It's Marcus Smart, with a Laettner-esque gap to a long list of Missouri players.

MarkD83
01-11-2017, 01:58 PM
Grantland actually did a public poll of most hated college bball players back in 2013 and there is a dedicated "Duke bracket" -- the rest are 80s, 90s, and 00s.

Duke guys in the 8 slots are 1. Laettner, 2. Redick, 3. Ferry, 4. Wojo, 5. Battier, 6. Austin Rivers, 7. Hurley, and 8 Paulus. Wojo took out Battier easily as more hated although Rivers toppled Ferry (and then "lost" to JJ). (Although Austin is half white too and admittedly these things skew towards recency so Ferry didn't stand a chance). So, Grantland voted Battier/Rivers.

Among the rest of the NCAA, Grantload chose 7/8 black players as most hated for the 80s, 6/8 black players for the 90s, and 1.5/8 players for the 00s (Joakim Noah is biracial). So, for whatever reason, they skewed as most hated nowadays in the internet age as white whereas they did not go that direction for earlier decades. From those choices (field is 15 black guys, 15 white guys, and 2 biracial unless I'm off somewhere as I admittedly don't know the backgrounds of every player), the public voted 5 white guys, 2 black guys, and 1 biracial guy for their Elite 8, 3/4 white guys for Final 4, 2 white guys in final, and white guy champion (Laettner of course). Hardly scientific and not a large sample size, but still found it amusing...

https://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/grant_e_bracket_hatedplayersfinal11.jpg

You do notice that the final 4 is three UNCheat players and Laettner. However, all 3 UNCheat players may be ineligible once the NCAA investigates.

CDu
01-11-2017, 01:59 PM
THIS is a lot of what I am seeing happen. I have had 3 friends, who are "basketball people" and not your average fans, tell me that they are actually rooting for Allen now because of all these ridiculous accusations. All 3 of these friends said they started the season thinking Grayson was a whiny Duke player, but they are all slowly becoming Grayson fans.

Unfortunately, the jealousy from people who have never played a sport nor have an ounce of athleticism in their body is quite real.
And, yes...I do think the fact that he's a "pasty white boy" plays in to this discussion.

I sure hope that ESPN's incessant search for more indiscretions will eventually turn the tide. So long as he doesn't commit any more true errors in judgement, that's all that really matters. The stuff from the BC game and the FSU game isn't going to stick. And might even help turn the tide in support of him for some of the less irrational haters.

Sixthman
01-11-2017, 02:04 PM
This the situation but nonetheless unfair. Someone has made tripping equivalent to fighting. It is not, by rule. There are clear rules about tripping and what to be done about it. It is equivalent to pushing or holding, which I see every single game.

The rules also address intentional fouls. There is a clear penalty for it, and having committed an intentional foul rarely subjects someone to extensive examination of his character or state of mind. Further, one can intentionally foul someone -- even intentionally foul someone by tripping them -- and not have had any intention to harm them. When it comes to tripping someone, risk of harm varies significantly with the speed at which someone is moving. When Grayson was tripped -- unintentionally -- during the BC game, he was moving at full speed and much, much more likely to have experienced injury than was anyone who was tripped by Grayson. The rule book does not create any room for arguing that tripping someone is any worse than pushing them, undercutting them on a rebound, or raking them across the arms while shooting a layup. So, when it comes down to it, all of the scrutiny of Grayson is justified by his having acted intentionally -- not to harm someone -- but to foul someone. Of course, it does not attract eyeballs or generate buzz to acknowledge this.

Bluedog
01-11-2017, 02:08 PM
Was anyone else holding their breath when this happened?

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FrigidLateBabirusa-size_restricted.gif

Yes, I was thinking the same thing at the time! You can see that as the FSU guy cuts towards the middle that Grayson pulls up sharply to get out of the way and not risk them getting tangled. It's something that happens in basketball all the time, but in this alternate universe, we as fans (and Grayson as a player), are being extra extra cautious....

flyingdutchdevil
01-11-2017, 02:11 PM
I agree the hate isn't going away easily. Short of him pulling over on the way home from practice to save a bus of orphans who have fallen in an icy river, he is who he is.

More to the point, the attention isn't going away. He can still write his own narrative moving forward. If everyone in the world is focusing their lens on you waiting for your next mistake, you do have an opportunity to show them something else. My hope is that he chooses this path.

And, it is remarkable how after coming back from his suspension he has already found himself in two compromising situations. He is eithee incredibly unlucky, or dense. His nose has to be clean and sterilized like he is going into surgery.

Is it, though? Grayson Allen plays with reckless abandon. This is well known, and something that our own players and coaches have commented on. That's why Allen, compared to most players, is so damn injury prone, although ironically he hasn't suffered a major injury (knock on wood).

When the dude dunks, he never has a smooth landing. When he dives for loose balls, he doesn't care who is in front of him (remember when he nearly ended Amile's career. In a Blue-White game?).

Grayson doesn't think about the next step after the one he's already planning. So when he dives into an opposing bench, he's not thinking about his safety or anyone elses. He's thinking about that ball. And when the ball is no longer an issue, that's when he thinks about other variables.

alteran
01-11-2017, 02:21 PM
And, it is remarkable how after coming back from his suspension he has already found himself in two compromising situations. He is eithee incredibly unlucky, or dense.

This sentence took my breath away.

Those "two compromising situations" are incredibly common basketball situations. Here are the two "compromising situations" which you are placing on his shoulders as his fault (or phenomenally unlucky/dense).

1) Grayson's legs ALMOST getting entangled with another players legs, and being in a place where the player could POTENTIALLY trip. This must happen somewhere in the neighborhood of half a dozen times in a normal college basketball game with multiple players. If you pick a game in advance that I can see on WatchESPN, I will find examples if you're willing to pony up stakes high enough to make me waste my time on this completely non-controversial proof.

2) The other "compromising example" is a case where the alleged "victim" basically said, "come on, this is a non-story, just a heady basketball play." But apparently that absurdly high standard-- an opponent actually taking on media criticism (he is getting widely criticized for "covering" for Allen) to refute a conspiracy theory against Allen-- well, even that comically high standard is not high enough for you.

Again, I am speechless.

In a highly physical sport, people are looking at Allen's actions with Zapruder-levels details, finding collisions and near collisions, and saying that alone is enough to convict him. No player of any merit in college basketball could pass the test you are apparently signing off on.

DangerDevil
01-11-2017, 02:24 PM
And this should be the end of discussion. Of course, it won't be. Blind hatred has never yet let facts get in the way of a good theory.

Anyway, I'm sure Coach K paid Coach Gates to say that :rolleyes:

I feel bad exposing the truth, Coach Dennis Gates' younger brother Armon is an assistant at Northwestern.

http://www.nusports.com/news/2013/6/18/Armon_Gates_Joins_Men_s_Basketball_Staff_as_Assist ant_Coach.aspx


I can't believe that the reporting geniuses at ESPN, Bleacher Report, nor any of the other journalistic sports powerhouses of the day have connected the dots and "reported what is obvious" about Coach Dennis Gates's twitter plea; Coach K must have implored Chris Collins to threaten Armon Gates' job unless he could convince his older brother Dennis Gates to come to Grayson's defense. Luckily for Grayson and us Duke fans, Dennis must like his younger brother and fortunately came up with the convenient "hustle play story".

Its been awhile since we have heard from Gregg Doyle, I am sure he is working on an expose covering this scandal as we speak.

Unbelievable, I am afraid to think what could be next for Grayson and this Duke season.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-11-2017, 02:33 PM
This sentence took my breath away.

Those "two compromising situations" are incredibly common basketball situations. Here are the two "compromising situations" which you are placing on his shoulders as his fault (or phenomenally unlucky/dense).

1) Grayson's legs ALMOST getting entangled with another players legs, and being in a place where the player could POTENTIALLY trip. This must happen somewhere in the neighborhood of half a dozen times in a normal college basketball game with multiple players. If you pick a game in advance that I can see on WatchESPN, I will find examples if you're willing to pony up stakes high enough to make me waste my time on this completely non-controversial proof.

2) The other "compromising example" is a case where the alleged "victim" basically said, "come on, this is a non-story, just a heady basketball play." But apparently that absurdly high standard-- an opponent actually taking on media criticism (he is getting widely criticized for "covering" for Allen) to refute a conspiracy theory against Allen-- well, even that comically high standard is not high enough for you.

Again, I am speechless.

In a highly physical sport, people are looking at Allen's actions with Zapruder-levels details, finding collisions and near collisions, and saying that alone is enough to convict him. No player of any merit in college basketball could pass the test you are apparently signing off on.

Look, you are missing my point. Yes, I think his intention in the two incidents was benign. But, my point is that THIS WILL KEEP HAPPENING. The laser focus isn't going anywhere. So, being outraged each time it happens is fine I suppose, but wears thin and dull for me.

He is now in a position where he must be above reproach. Partly it is the media's fault, partly it is the microscope of Duke basketball, and partly it is his own doing. Pretending this is all ESPN's grand plan is silly. They are partly to blame but Grayson has been a complicit player in moments as well. Also, this is the price of decades of national exposure and excellence.

When do we get to stop being surprised? I sure hope someone at Duke has Allen's ear and has told him how it is going to be. I guarantee you he isn't shocked by the frame by frame analysis and isn't expecting it to stop.

MChambers
01-11-2017, 02:36 PM
So, because another Duke player didn't get harassed by the media, it must be race? I don't follow your logic.

I am not trying to stoke anything here, I just legitimately don't understand the argument.

I mean "Laettner and JJ, but not Grant Hill" doesn't do it for me. Far too small of a sample size. Might as well suggest the reason for the difference is Grant's high top fade.

I really bristle at people injecting reverse racism - or any racism - into a coversation without binders of evidence.

I understand why you bristle, and I do too, usually, but here I don't see any other explanation that is at all satisfying. CDu has already responded to you far more eloquently that I can, and I agree completely with him, but wanted to say that I understand your discomfort.

duke4ever19
01-11-2017, 02:47 PM
In a weird way, I believe this latest "incident" is going to have the reverse effect than what the Allen haters are hoping for. I mean, "Allen shoves FSU coach" is a huge headline with major implications that can attract even the most casual of fan(by design of course), only to have Joey Casual become disappointed with the non-eventful video footage. It makes the other, very real incidents that happened lose their sting because it starts to become diluted.

Too many more of these and I really believe people will start to think(as some on this board already do) that it was a witch hunt from the beginning. I think some(not all obviously) will actually start to feel sorry for the guy.

I thought so too, then I looked at the comment sections on these sites . . . . whew.

Bottom line: People love to feel outrage and righteous indignation. ESPN and others have offered the public the moral high ground on a platter.

Most people feel that Grayson wasn't suspended long enough, so they are all-too happy to pile on non-stories about him. They don't feel that enough Allen blood has been shed.

Tripping William
01-11-2017, 02:49 PM
Anyone else convinced that (aside from pure click-bait) the goal now is to prevent GA from ever again making a play like this one (https://youtu.be/1_-vfaw1BwQ?t=118)? Imagine the ruckus if he did this today, rather than in April 2015.

Wahoo2000
01-11-2017, 02:50 PM
Coming back to the race thing, I thought I'd give you guys an outsider's (non-Duke fan) perspective. I think that race DOES play a factor in how much guys are hated, but it's probably smaller than you assume.

Basically, I think there are four main factors into how much a player is hated universally (meaning not just by rival fans, but by everyone, and I'm going to order them from what I think is the most important to least important factor):

1. How good are they, and how long have they stuck around? I think you'll find that the top, TOP tier of hated guys are ALMOST always 1st team all-american/POY candidate type of players (whether by pre-season hype or post-season accolade is irrelevant, the point is that the camera is always focused on them, and they'll ALWAYS be a good topic of discussion on various media outlets). Additionally, those guys are also pretty much always multi-year players. It's usually repeated behavior/offenses over multiple years that bother people more, plus freshmen more often have the youth/inexperience/stupidity excuse.

2. Are they cocky/brash/trash talkers? Nobody wants to watch a guy beat people and then brag, pop their jersey, yell at fans, stare down opponents or opposing coaching staffs. That is usually the quickest way to get people to hate you.

3. Are they excessively chippy? Do they let their competitive fire get the best of them far too often? Guys that seem to have either impulse control, or even almost a reflex reaction to "strike back" outside the perceived boundaries of what is "fair and acceptable" are going to be labeled as dirty players, and whether fair or not, as all around bad guys.

4. The "Rudy Factor". This is probably the one spot where race plays a factor, and I think it's the smallest one. Fans (opposing fans) don't like seeing a player that, in their opinion, "phenotypically" (i.e., they look like a nerdy white kid) shouldn't be beating their own players. Rather than direct their rage at their own team for not being able to dominate what seems to be a physically inferior opponent, they direct that ire toward the opponent (who is usually an all-out-hustle, give 110% type of player).

I think guys like Wojo and Scheyer were way less "hated" than you guys feel. Probably more "annoying" is how I think most opposing fans would view them. I doubt people thought they were of questionable character either. I think the reason that guys Like Laettner, Reddick, and Allen have been "a cut above" in the hatred category has way more to do with the first 3 categories than the 4th. In fact, I'm struggling to think of any multi-year african-american Duke player who was an AA-type, and either a taunter or an excessively chippy guy.

duke4ever19
01-11-2017, 03:02 PM
I think guys like Wojo and Scheyer were way less "hated" than you guys feel. Probably more "annoying" is how I think most opposing fans would view them. I doubt people thought they were of questionable character either. I think the reason that guys Like Laettner, Reddick, and Allen have been "a cut above" in the hatred category has way more to do with the first 3 categories than the 4th. In fact, I'm struggling to think of any multi-year african-american Duke player who was an AA-type, and either a taunter or an excessively chippy guy.

This.

For as long as K has been on those sidelines, with all those great players over the years, maybe only Laettner, Redick and now Allen qualify as truly hated on a national level. That's actually an underrepresented group compared to public perception and the length of K tenure.

Guys like Singler, Paulus and Scheyer and maybe Parks were more disliked within the Duke vs. UNC rivalry. Wojo is a fringe case. In fact, I've had this conversation with a few non-Duke bball fans. They might say Paulus was annoying, but the hate really wasn't there. Laettner, Redick and now Allen are in a completely different category of hate.

PackMan97
01-11-2017, 03:09 PM
Anyone else convinced that (aside from pure click-bait) the goal now is to prevent GA from ever again making a play like this one (https://youtu.be/1_-vfaw1BwQ?t=118)? Imagine the ruckus if he did this today, rather than in April 2015.

Seriously...you need to put a trigger warning ahead of any link with Dicky V doing the color...and to think my ears had been Dicky V free for 4 years, 1 month and 2 days...now all that healing and recovery is down the drain because of you! :mad:

alteran
01-11-2017, 03:15 PM
Look, you are missing my point. Yes, I think his intention in the two incidents was benign. But, my point is that THIS WILL KEEP HAPPENING. The laser focus isn't going anywhere. So, being outraged each time it happens is fine I suppose, but wears thin and dull for me.

Actually, I didn't "miss" this point-- you never made it (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?39204-much-ado-about-nothing-or-OMG&p=940820#post940820). This new point, "THIS WILL KEEP HAPPENING" and anger won't change it, well, that I agree with-- and find pretty non-controversial.

I only disagreed with your pretty unambiguous statement that Allen was somehow perpetuating the cycle. You seem to have backed off that now, so we're in agreement. Progress.


He is now in a position where he must be above reproach. Partly it is the media's fault, partly it is the microscope of Duke basketball, and partly it is his own doing. Pretending this is all ESPN's grand plan is silly. They are partly to blame but Grayson has been a complicit player in moments as well.

When do we get to stop being surprised? I sure hope someone at Duke has Allen's ear and has told him how it is going to be. I guarantee you he isn't shocked by the frame by frame analysis and isn't expecting it to stop.

I agree with everything except the strawman arguments here. First, nobody is pretending Grayson didn't make mistakes here, just that the current coverage is not remotely based on reality. No one is seriously arguing that this is ESPN's grand plan, just that what is happening is actually happening. The current ESPN Allen coverage is farcical and ridiculous, and hell yes, ESPN is responsible for the ridiculous aspects of their coverage. Grayson is NOT complicit in his benign actions being deliberately mis-read.

DBFAN
01-11-2017, 03:19 PM
This.

For as long as K has been on those sidelines, with all those great players over the years, maybe only Laettner, Redick and now Allen qualify as truly hated on a national level. That's actually an underrepresented group compared to public perception and the length of K tenure.

Guys like Singler, Paulus and Scheyer and maybe Parks were more disliked within the Duke vs. UNC rivalry. Wojo is a fringe case. In fact, I've had this conversation with a few non-Duke bball fans. They might say Paulus was annoying, but the hate really wasn't there. Laettner, Redick and now Allen are in a completely different category of hate.

Ok well I think the reason you may not remember any African American players being chippy or brash is because it wasn't shoved down everyone's throat. Dante Jones did push ups at UVA after dunking on one of their players. And while I loved it, could you possible imagine what would happen if Allen did that. If Allen had landed an elbow like Henderson he would be removed from the team. There are plenty of examples, but my point is not to make those guys look bad, by taking a snapshot of their career
Not so sure you recall how much Paulus was hated. It wasn't just UNC fans they hated him. The reception he received at places like VT were pretty terrible. MD fans were absolutely ruthless to him. Paulus just didn't turn out to be as good of a player as Allen, but if he had, then everyone would remember

AtlDuke72
01-11-2017, 03:23 PM
Just listened to moronic sports radio in Atlanta. I don't know why I listen to it since it is on about a 6th grade level. Anyway, today they claimed that Grayson Allen pushed the FSU assistant coach and that this shows a serious psyhcological problem or even a chemical issue. They then went on a rant about Coach K only suspending him for one game etc. etc . The Haters are out in force and the only solution is to not listen.

DukieInKansas
01-11-2017, 03:24 PM
Look, you are missing my point. Yes, I think his intention in the two incidents was benign. But, my point is that THIS WILL KEEP HAPPENING. The laser focus isn't going anywhere. So, being outraged each time it happens is fine I suppose, but wears thin and dull for me.

He is now in a position where he must be above reproach. Partly it is the media's fault, partly it is the microscope of Duke basketball, and partly it is his own doing. Pretending this is all ESPN's grand plan is silly. They are partly to blame but Grayson has been a complicit player in moments as well. Also, this is the price of decades of national exposure and excellence.

When do we get to stop being surprised? I sure hope someone at Duke has Allen's ear and has told him how it is going to be. I guarantee you he isn't shocked by the frame by frame analysis and isn't expecting it to stop.

Unfortunately, I think it will keep happening because they are playing basketball. Basketball is not a non-contact sport. Players run into each other, players get their arms and legs tangled up, players knock each other to the floor. If any such play is run in slow motion, I would venture a guess that about half of them would look like one player is trying to trip/run over/knock down the other player on purpose, but not necessarily with the intent to harm. The 3 tripping offenses by GA looked like trips at real speed. I haven't seen, ok haven't really looked, for the BC leg extension or the FSU chair/coach take down in real speed. I'm going to guess that, in real speed, there is nothing to see. I understand there is a "history" with GA and Duke is held to a higher standard but the non-trip in the BC game made more news than fights in two different college games and a player kicking an opponent intentionally. That had me shaking my head. I find it much easier to accept idiotic fans beating this into the ground than to understand how media does it.

Wahoo2000
01-11-2017, 03:33 PM
Ok well I think the reason you may not remember any African American players being chippy or brash is because it wasn't shoved down everyone's throat. Dante Jones did push ups at UVA after dunking on one of their players. And while I loved it, could you possible imagine what would happen if Allen did that. If Allen had landed an elbow like Henderson he would be removed from the team. There are plenty of examples, but my point is not to make those guys look bad, by taking a snapshot of their career
Not so sure you recall how much Paulus was hated. It wasn't just UNC fans they hated him. The reception he received at places like VT were pretty terrible. MD fans were absolutely ruthless to him. Paulus just didn't turn out to be as good of a player as Allen, but if he had, then everyone would remember

The difference between how Jones and Allen are viewed isn't due to race, it's due to one being a great player, POY candidate, and face of the Duke program, while the other (Jones) was in a much lesser role (though still a very good player).

For the record, I have plenty of dislike (I won't say hate - hard for me to hate an athlete for any reason besides off-the-court criminal issues) for "Tauntay". Especially for the pushup incident, and total lack of sportsmanship it displayed.

Wahoo2000
01-11-2017, 03:36 PM
Unfortunately, I think it will keep happening because they are playing basketball. Basketball is not a non-contact sport. Players run into each other, players get their arms and legs tangled up, players knock each other to the floor. If any such play is run in slow motion, I would venture a guess that about half of them would look like one player is trying to trip/run over/knock down the other player on purpose, but not necessarily with the intent to harm. The 3 tripping offenses by GA looked like trips at real speed. I haven't seen, ok haven't really looked, for the BC leg extension or the FSU chair/coach take down in real speed. I'm going to guess that, in real speed, there is nothing to see. I understand there is a "history" with GA and Duke is held to a higher standard but the non-trip in the BC game made more news than fights in two different college games and a player kicking an opponent intentionally. That had me shaking my head. I find it much easier to accept idiotic fans beating this into the ground than to understand how media does it.

I actually think the Allen media circus is reaching such a fevered pitch that people may stop paying attention to it soon. When that happens, the views and click rates go down. At that point, it'll receive a lot less coverage. Every story eventually "burns out". You guys should hope that this storm stays as strong as possible for the moment, because if it does, it'll likely be a footnote in coverage and much less of a distraction by the time you get to the really important games in March.

DBFAN
01-11-2017, 03:39 PM
The difference between how Jones and Allen are viewed isn't due to race, it's due to one being a great player, POY candidate, and face of the Duke program, while the other (Jones) was in a much lesser role (though still a very good player).

For the record, I have plenty of dislike (I won't say hate - hard for me to hate an athlete for any reason besides off-the-court criminal issues) for "Tauntay". Especially for the pushup incident, and total lack of sportsmanship it displayed.

I agree with you on it being hard to hate an athlete for those reasons. But I would have to point out that before the Dana O'Neil piece Grayson was in the same position as Jones. He made plays in the Final four that were explosive athletic plays that helped propel us to the championship, but he was in no way the face of the team. Fast forward to beginning of the next season. Early in the season he had a few good games, and then suddenly the hate started to pour on. I don't see how the two are different at that point.

DBFAN
01-11-2017, 03:42 PM
I actually think the Allen media circus is reaching such a fevered pitch that people may stop paying attention to it soon. When that happens, the views and click rates go down. At that point, it'll receive a lot less coverage. Every story eventually "burns out". You guys should hope that this storm stays as strong as possible for the moment, because if it does, it'll likely be a footnote in coverage and much less of a distraction by the time you get to the really important games in March.

Maybe, If ESPN doesn't find a way to have Allen put on death row before that

dukelifer
01-11-2017, 03:44 PM
The rules also address intentional fouls. There is a clear penalty for it, and having committed an intentional foul rarely subjects someone to extensive examination of his character or state of mind. Further, one can intentionally foul someone -- even intentionally foul someone by tripping them -- and not have had any intention to harm them. When it comes to tripping someone, risk of harm varies significantly with the speed at which someone is moving. When Grayson was tripped -- unintentionally -- during the BC game, he was moving at full speed and much, much more likely to have experienced injury than was anyone who was tripped by Grayson. The rule book does not create any room for arguing that tripping someone is any worse than pushing them, undercutting them on a rebound, or raking them across the arms while shooting a layup. So, when it comes down to it, all of the scrutiny of Grayson is justified by his having acted intentionally -- not to harm someone -- but to foul someone. Of course, it does not attract eyeballs or generate buzz to acknowledge this.

I would argue that many fouls are intentional- keeping someone from completing a play by hammering their arms while going up for a shot- forcing them to take free throws is intentional- grabbing a player going for a fast break is intentional. Most are treated as simple fouls. In no case did Grayson hurt an opponent. If someone cracked their head or broke an arm- you might have a story. But we heard strong advocates for a 4 game suspension for sticking a leg out to keep a player from going to the basket- if he stuck his arm out- there would be no mention. I just find this all odd in the context of the rules. I am fine with K sitting Grayson for his outburst- that was uncalled for an set a bad example. But lets get off the tripping, pushing coaches nonsense. This is done for clicks and intentionally ruining the kid's confidence and reputation.

dukelifer
01-11-2017, 03:45 PM
Maybe, If ESPN doesn't find a way to have Allen put on death row before that

In a super-slowmo world- they will always have a play in a game to look at. It is really unfortunate.