much ado about nothing, or OMG?

[Owen Meany]

The difference between how Jones and Allen are viewed isn't due to race, it's due to one being a great player, POY candidate, and face of the Duke program, while the other (Jones) was in a much lesser role (though still a very good player).

For the record, I have plenty of dislike (I won't say hate - hard for me to hate an athlete for any reason besides off-the-court criminal issues) for "Tauntay". Especially for the pushup incident, and total lack of sportsmanship it displayed.

Dahntay was a very good player (18 points a game) and a very high profile player in the ACC. His final year was when Duke won their 5th consecutive ACC Championship and the resentment level toward Duke was very high. He was All-ACC, the face of Duke's program that year, and Duke's best player (not a lesser role). So while he may have lacked the national profile of Allen, he was very well known within the conference. Even within the ACC he was not regarded with 1/10th of the antipathy of Allen.

[Wahoo2000]

I agree with you on it being hard to hate an athlete for those reasons. But I would have to point out that before the Dana O'Neil piece Grayson was in the same position as Jones. He made plays in the Final four that were explosive athletic plays that helped propel us to the championship, but he was in no way the face of the team. Fast forward to beginning of the next season. Early in the season he had a few good games, and then suddenly the hate started to pour on. I don't see how the two are different at that point.

I don't think the hate really started to "pour on" until the tripping incidents in the Louisville and FSU games. At that point, he was probably recognized as one of the top 3-4 players in the ACC, a contender for all American status, and the current face of the Duke program. I just really don't remember people or media "hating" on Allen in December or January to any degree more than what Jones ever received.

[Wahoo2000]

Dahntay was a very good player (18 points a game) and a very high profile player in the ACC. His final year was when Duke won their 5th consecutive ACC Championship and the resentment level toward Duke was very high. He was All-ACC, the face of Duke's program that year, and Duke's best player (not a lesser role). So while he may have lacked the national profile of Allen, he was very well known within the conference. Even within the ACC he was not regarded with 1/10th of the antipathy of Allen.

I see a lot of differences. Jones was only at Duke 2 seasons, and while a "Senior", I would say that Duhon was more the "face" and leader of the team having come off of 2 seasons with a national title and a 2002 season that saw Duke in the #1 spot more often than not. That team also featured Redick in a large role (though he was a freshman), as well as Ewing and Sheldon Williams (i think). I think Allen's longer tenure, higher status as a PoY favorite, and lack of other "hateable" guys like Redick mark a clear delineation in the "expected level of hate" - within the ACC or nationally.

[alteran]

I see a lot of differences. Jones was only at Duke 2 seasons, and while a "Senior", I would say that Duhon was more the "face" and leader of the team having come off of 2 seasons with a national title and a 2002 season that saw Duke in the #1 spot more often than not. That team also featured Redick in a large role (though he was a freshman), as well as Ewing and Sheldon Williams (i think). I think Allen's longer tenure, higher status as a PoY favorite, and lack of other "hateable" guys like Redick mark a clear delineation in the "expected level of hate" - within the ACC or nationally.

This discussion is always going to be like this-- very fuzzy, lots of impressions, no kind of meaningful statistics or any way to get them, and no real apples-to-apples comparisons.

Personally, I DO see a correlation with which players on Duke are singled out for the most bull(wanker) from the industrial media Duke hate complex. But that's an impression, and I can't do much with it. And it might be wrong. Either way, the minute people try to extrapolate something from that impression, they quickly stop making comments based on reality.

Bottom line: so what if there's a correlation? No one has done anything to actually measure what's happening, and realistically, they can't. So they just fire out their little pre-existing pet theories on race, which is why this topic appears to be a pointless rabbit hole-- more appropriate for the defunct PPB than the EKB.

[Owen Meany]

I see a lot of differences. Jones was only at Duke 2 seasons, and while a "Senior", I would say that Duhon was more the "face" and leader of the team having come off of 2 seasons with a national title and a 2002 season that saw Duke in the #1 spot more often than not. That team also featured Redick in a large role (though he was a freshman), as well as Ewing and Sheldon Williams (i think). I think Allen's longer tenure, higher status as a PoY favorite, and lack of other "hateable" guys like Redick mark a clear delineation in the "expected level of hate" - within the ACC or nationally.

I'll stop on this topic with this post (maybe?), but...

I believe you are twisting and torturing your "facts" to reach the conclusion you want. Dahntay is leading scorer, 2nd leading rebounder, only first team all-acc member. Well, he was not the "face" of the program. Wojo wasn't really hated? Then why was he in the Grantland Bracket of most hated college players, or in Sports Illustrated's 10 most hated players of all time, or in the ESPN article of Hated Duke White Guys (although the Washington Post only had him as honorable mention as "pretty hateable")? Which is fine. I believe its actually a great example of how the public twists things to justify Grayson Allen being a great menace.

You and I (and Grant Hill, and Shane Battier, and Jay Williams as I posted earlier) will have to agree to disagree.

[Tom B.]

I don't think the hate really started to "pour on" until the tripping incidents in the Louisville and FSU games. At that point, he was probably recognized as one of the top 3-4 players in the ACC, a contender for all American status, and the current face of the Duke program. I just really don't remember people or media "hating" on Allen in December or January to any degree more than what Jones ever received.

USA Today ran a story literally one day after the 2015 national championship game labeling Allen the "next Duke villain." The hate might not have been truly flowing, but the haters and clickbaiters had built a nice big pile of dry tinder and pre-doused it with gasoline. All they needed was a spark to set it off, which they got with the tripping incidents last season. But if those incidents hadn't happened, they'd have found (or manufactured) some other reason to hate him. They'd spent too much time and energy laying the groundwork not to.

[Steven43]

On separate occasions, I have talked casually with 2 different ACC head coaches in the past (who are no longer coaching). I ran into one in the gym, and one on a college track. In both cases I was a little shocked at the hatred and jealousy they showed toward Duke's program and success under K.
Okay, this is potentially too good to let go. Details son, details!

[Wahoo2000]

I'll stop on this topic with this post (maybe?), but...

I believe you are twisting and torturing your "facts" to reach the conclusion you want. Dahntay is leading scorer, 2nd leading rebounder, only first team all-acc member. Well, he was not the "face" of the program. Wojo wasn't really hated? Then why was he in the Grantland Bracket of most hated college players, or in Sports Illustrated's 10 most hated players of all time, or in the ESPN article of Hated Duke White Guys (although the Washington Post only had him as honorable mention as "pretty hateable")? Which is fine. I believe its actually a great example of how the public twists things to justify Grayson Allen being a great menace.

You and I (and Grant Hill, and Shane Battier, and Jay Williams as I posted earlier) will have to agree to disagree.

That's a great point, similar to one made by alteran above. A lot of this just boils down to individual opinions, without much real fact to back it up. Given that, neither side of the debate is likely to convince the other that they're incorrect. Agree to disagree (civilly & friendly) is probably the way to go.

Also, want you to know that I DO respect your opinion (as well as Grant/Shane/Jay's), and admit that there's a not-insignificant possibility I'm incorrect. I've been told by more than one person that my major flaw is that I tend to see/assume the best in people until they've proven otherwise beyond ALL (not just reasonable) doubt. And with that, I'll drop the subject too as I'm sure you guys are sick of reading a Wahoo's (repeated) opinions on your board.

A good day to you, sir! ;-)

[devildeac]

That's a great point, similar to one made by alteran above. A lot of this just boils down to individual opinions, without much real fact to back it up. Given that, neither side of the debate is likely to convince the other that they're incorrect. Agree to disagree (civilly & friendly) is probably the way to go.

Also, want you to know that I DO respect your opinion (as well as Grant/Shane/Jay's), and admit that there's a not-insignificant possibility I'm incorrect. I've been told by more than one person that my major flaw is that I tend to see/assume the best in people until they've proven otherwise beyond ALL (not just reasonable) doubt. And with that, I'll drop the subject too as I'm sure you guys are sick of reading a Wahoo's (repeated) opinions on your board.

A good day to you, sir! ;-)

Good points/counter-points all around and I don't feel I'm being lectured to reading your posts/answers/thoughts. Plus the fact you're gluten-free. :rolleyes:

[davekay1971]

In a super-slowmo world- they will always have a play in a game to look at. It is really unfortunate.

This.

And the shady reporting. The current idiotic ESPN article on the FSU event is written with slime oozing from the keyboard. First of all, the substance of the article is basically to report that FSU assistant coach Gates is saying Grayson dove after a loose ball and landed on him. That's the sum total of the relevant facts of the "controversy" at this point.

However, in the ESPN article, the writer manages to remind the reader that Grayson has tripped players (true), that K suspended him for one game (true), that the duration of the suspension was "widely criticized" (by a bunch of ESPN talking heads who have absolutely no inside information on the matter...this is like informing us that the actions of a candidate of Political Party A were widely criticized by the spokespersons of Political Party B...shocking!), and that, in his first game back, Grayson "appeared to have tripped" a Boston College player (an accusation not made, or agreed to, by the game refs, the league, the NCAA, or the BC player or coaching staff).

The other way of stating these same facts is that Grayson has tripped players in his college career, was suspended by K and stripped of his captaincy after the third such incident, expressed remorse, and has not yet tripped anyone since coming back, recognizing that he's only been back 3 games. Oh, and in the third game back he dove for a loose ball and landed on an FSU assistant coach, who is perfectly fine with that.

To paraphrase Maryland fans, Euck FSPN.

[slower]

USA Today ran a story literally one day after the 2015 national championship game labeling Allen the "next Duke villain." The hate might not have been truly flowing, but the haters and clickbaiters had built a nice big pile of dry tinder and pre-doused it with gasoline.

http://grantland.com/features/mark-t...love-for-duke/

As I've stated previously, Grantland's Mark Titus wrote a "next hated Duke player" comment about Grayson WHILE HE WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL.

Nobody - NOBODY - has ever had to put up with this crap like Grayson has.

[aimo]

After making it their webpage headline earlier today, WTVD did not even mention it on their 6pm news. Guess they got a grip when they heard the coach's own statement that it was nonsense.

[DU82]

After making it their webpage headline earlier today, WTVD did not even mention it on their 6pm news. Guess they got a grip when they heard the coach's own statement that it was nonsense.

Except WRAL sports led with the story. (They did include the FSU coach's comment, and basically ended with "he's under a microscope.")

[DukeandMdFan]

A few thoughts/analogies.

Austin Rivers is my only answer for hated minority players for Duke. I didn't think of him right away because he was only there a minute. There are also fans of Duke because Duke seems to have a lot of good white players. (If William Avery was hated, it wasn't by fans of other teams.)

It was cool of the FSU coach to say that Grayson was showing great hustle.

It was also cool of my best friend when my toddler took a toy away from his toddler. I told my child to give the toy back; my friend told me not to worry about it and that his child needs to share better. I would happily accept that my child did nothing wrong.

Sometimes people are cool to smooth things over.

Sometimes people act like another person didn't disrespect them.

I believe when people fall, their arms collapse a little to "break their falls". I did my own "google research" and googled the Derek Jeter catch and basketball players diving into the crowd (Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Blake Griffin, etc.) Nobody seems to extend their arms in the same manner as Grayson appears to do. I think it was cool of the coach to act like it was the same type of hustle play; he probably has better things to worry about. But, the coach being cool isn't proof that Grayson would have done exactly the same thing if he was going into the Duke bench or if he wasn't under such enormous pressure.

I'm also a Yankees fan. I may be the only person who feels about Grayson Allen pretty much the same way as they do about ARod. Their cases are a little different, but there are similarities. He joined my team and accepted a lesser role in hopes of winning a championship. He joined my team even though he knew some people would hate him for it. He made some great, exciting plays in the biggest games which enabled my team to win a championship. He also did some things I wish he hadn't done. He was under enormous pressure and did some things in the course of competition that didn't look right to announcers and fans of other teams, but when you delve into it, they weren't that bad - I don't remember anyone getting physically hurt. He served a suspension which some haters thought wasn't long enough. His shortcomings were unfairly scrutinized by the media and opposing fans who hated him. This scrutiny and hatred was partly due to him playing for my team. Additionally, he has some very good qualities outside of sports. Overall, I suppose I still like him.

[Atlanta Duke]

Guess they got a grip when they heard the coach's own statement that it was nonsense.

Nope - exoneration only gives credibility to the story

Florida State coach's defense of Grayson Allen actually makes 'shove' look worse

Gates wasn't asked to put out a statement. This story actually legitimized itself the second Gates sent that tweet out. By acknowledging the collision and maybe-shove from Allen, Gates only enhanced the story.

http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/florida-state-coaches-defense-of-grayson-allen-actually-makes-shove-look-worse/

We have entered the Twilight Zone of online sports talk controversies

[PackMan97]

A few thoughts/analogies.

Austin Rivers is my only answer for hated minority players for Duke.

Shane Battier if you are wondering. At least for me that's who it would be. Dahntay Jones is up there as well. I'm sure Gerald Henderson has a special place for a lot of Tar Heel fans, though to be honest he was one of my favorite Duke players in recent history (probably for the same reason Tarheels hate him)

[sagegrouse]

When I think of players in the last 10 or so years who are disliked, the overwhelming are white: Allen, Hansborough, Paulus, Aaron Craft, Devendorf, Marshall Henderson...

Marcus Smart and Joakim Noah are two of the few hated players who aren't white.

See, this is one of the places all this talk breaks down: Joakim's Mom is a Swedish model.

[Furniture]

Nope - exoneration only gives credibility to the story

Florida State coach's defense of Grayson Allen actually makes 'shove' look worse

Gates wasn't asked to put out a statement. This story actually legitimized itself the second Gates sent that tweet out. By acknowledging the collision and maybe-shove from Allen, Gates only enhanced the story.

http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/florida-state-coaches-defense-of-grayson-allen-actually-makes-shove-look-worse/

We have entered the Twilight Zone of online sports talk controversies

To me that's a 'no news' news story.....nothing there.

[jipops]

This tops all of it though.
https://twitter.com/bieacherreport/status/819330641531727873

[sagegrouse]

THIS is a lot of what I am seeing happen. I have had 3 friends, who are "basketball people" and not your average fans, tell me that they are actually rooting for Allen now because of all these ridiculous accusations. All 3 of these friends said they started the season thinking Grayson was a whiny Duke player, but they are all slowly becoming Grayson fans.

Unfortunately, the jealousy from people who have never played a sport nor have an ounce of athleticism in their body is quite real.
And, yes...I do think the fact that he's a "pasty white boy" plays in to this discussion.

I think the jealousy is less with Grayson than with guys like Hurley or Redick. Hurley looked like a guy who was captain of your intramural team (B division); of course, you would resent the hell out of his becoming a first-team A-A. Redick, while more imposing, looked like the guy who ran for fraternity president, whom you voted against.

I don't think Grayson inspires physical jealousy so much -- he is so damned athletic and quick; it is hard to imagine any ordinary mortal saying, "I can do that."

IMHO, where the H has been missing since 2007, Grayson is the best-known college basketball player in the NCAA, and he is playing for the most-followed (positive or negative) program. It is easy to get stories to stick. And now that he has a bunch of videos lined up against him, he has become a mega-target.

Kindly,
Sage
'One last thought -- this dude is gonna sell some tee shirts in the NBA'

[Owen Meany]

A few thoughts/analogies.

Austin Rivers is my only answer for hated minority players for Duke. I didn't think of him right away because he was only there a minute. There are also fans of Duke because Duke seems to have a lot of good white players. (If William Avery was hated, it wasn't by fans of other teams.)

It was cool of the FSU coach to say that Grayson was showing great hustle.

It was also cool of my best friend when my toddler took a toy away from his toddler. I told my child to give the toy back; my friend told me not to worry about it and that his child needs to share better. I would happily accept that my child did nothing wrong.

Sometimes people are cool to smooth things over.

Sometimes people act like another person didn't disrespect them.

I believe when people fall, their arms collapse a little to "break their falls". I did my own "google research" and googled the Derek Jeter catch and basketball players diving into the crowd (Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Blake Griffin, etc.) Nobody seems to extend their arms in the same manner as Grayson appears to do. I think it was cool of the coach to act like it was the same type of hustle play; he probably has better things to worry about. But, the coach being cool isn't proof that Grayson would have done exactly the same thing if he was going into the Duke bench or if he wasn't under such enormous pressure.

I'm also a Yankees fan. I may be the only person who feels about Grayson Allen pretty much the same way as they do about ARod. Their cases are a little different, but there are similarities. He joined my team and accepted a lesser role in hopes of winning a championship. He joined my team even though he knew some people would hate him for it. He made some great, exciting plays in the biggest games which enabled my team to win a championship. He also did some things I wish he hadn't done. He was under enormous pressure and did some things in the course of competition that didn't look right to announcers and fans of other teams, but when you delve into it, they weren't that bad - I don't remember anyone getting physically hurt. He served a suspension which some haters thought wasn't long enough. His shortcomings were unfairly scrutinized by the media and opposing fans who hated him. This scrutiny and hatred was partly due to him playing for my team. Additionally, he has some very good qualities outside of sports. Overall, I suppose I still like him.

DukeandMdFan,

I must confess to being skeptical of you due to your posting history - your post history only shows you posting to 3 topics on this forum

1.)why penalizing UNC would be unfair (you said Duke benefited heavily from the rivalry and asked "Should Duke have to return its financial gain from this rivalry for the last 20 years since the product was fraudulent?")
2.)concern over who was given the wins and losses when Coach K is out
3.)posts about Grayson Allen in this thread

Now, I assume the post history is limited to some time frame, but still -with so much positive about Duke basketball it seems very strange a fan would only post on these 3 particular topics. But I will give you the benfit of the doubt and I will assume you are a contrarian fan.

The flaw with your analogy above is that the coach didn't just say "Don't worry about it, move on". He clearly went out of his way to put together a statement for the public regarding this "event". In his own words "I want to make this very clear!" (exclamation point his). And he went to great lengths to not just say don't worry about it, but to explain why, in fact, this was a non-event, that he was in a blind spot, etc. He says "stop judging" and says it was not "as the media and others are portraying". He then describes it as "A GREAT HUSTLE PLAY" (all caps are his). There is more detail there, but you get the point. So I do not know how you can possibly compare this situation to a friend saying "don't worry about it" when your toddler took his toddler's toy. Unless you did not actually read the statement, I do not think its possible to make such an analogy in good faith.

I'll close with the exact same hashtag that Coach Gates' used (that makes his intent and true feelings crystal clear) #givegraysonabreak

[El_Diablo]

Austin Rivers is my only answer for hated minority players for Duke.


Shane Battier if you are wondering. At least for me that's who it would be.

And both Austin Rivers and Shane Battier are half white.

[atoomer0881]

This tops all of it though.
https://twitter.com/bieacherreport/status/819330641531727873

this actually made me laugh out loud. nice to see some levity brought to the situation.

in other news, it appears Chase is now learning the ways of his "former" captain (please note the sarcasm)
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TenderRemoteAnemonecrab-size_restricted.gif
how come ESPN isn't running with 4 dozen articles and 6 trillion videos with kinesiology experts on how the leg moves in one direction while jumping for a rebound???

[duke4ever19]

:cool:

7072

[DukeandMdFan]

DukeandMdFan,

I must confess to being skeptical of you due to your posting history - your post history only shows you posting to 3 topics on this forum

1.)why penalizing UNC would be unfair (you said Duke benefited heavily from the rivalry and asked "Should Duke have to return its financial gain from this rivalry for the last 20 years since the product was fraudulent?")
2.)concern over who was given the wins and losses when Coach K is out
3.)posts about Grayson Allen in this thread

Now, I assume the post history is limited to some time frame, but still -with so much positive about Duke basketball it seems very strange a fan would only post on these 3 particular topics. But I will give you the benfit of the doubt and I will assume you are a contrarian fan.

The flaw with your analogy above is that the coach didn't just say "Don't worry about it, move on". He clearly went out of his way to put together a statement for the public regarding this "event". In his own words "I want to make this very clear!" (exclamation point his). And he went to great lengths to not just say don't worry about it, but to explain why, in fact, this was a non-event, that he was in a blind spot, etc. He says "stop judging" and says it was not "as the media and others are portraying". He then describes it as "A GREAT HUSTLE PLAY" (all caps are his). There is more detail there, but you get the point. So I do not know how you can possibly compare this situation to a friend saying "don't worry about it" when your toddler took his toddler's toy. Unless you did not actually read the statement, I do not think its possible to make such an analogy in good faith.

I'll close with the exact same hashtag that Coach Gates' used (that makes his intent and true feelings crystal clear) #givegraysonabreak

That's a fair concern/observation.

I don't post much - I'm not good with puns. I have posted on more than just these topics over the years, but not very often. At one time, I thought that teams who beat Duke in the NCAA tournament actually did have an unusual string of bad luck (cursed, so to speak). I could start a new thread suggesting that DBR bring back the Quote of the Day or some Fly in the Stall (FITS) feature, but that would probably be more appropriate for an off-season topic.

I suppose that I find the people on this board to be reasonable people open to reasonable discussions. And, there is a desire for new ideas to advance the conversation rather than just "I agree, ____ is great" type comments. Even sporks are limited. So, I usually only post when I think I have an idea or perspective is somehow new to the conversation.

My take is that the coach is satisfied that Grayson was hustling for the ball and wasn't concerned about the incident. The coach probably believes it and doesn't want to spend any of his valuable time discussing it. I initially saw this as proof as the play was just a great hustle play. Then, I thought about it some more. I also noticed how many people on this board just assumed the coach was right because he said what we wanted to hear. I re-watched the video and it didn't look normal - like my toddler taking the toy away from my friend's toddler.

If the coach had declared that Grayson intentionally pushed him over, would you agree that was Grayson intended to run him over? If not, then why would you automatically agree with him when he said what you wanted to hear? (rhetorical question)

I don't think it is in the FSU coach's best interest that this be a story. He wants the story to be FSU beating Duke. Come Selection Sunday, a victory over a typical Duke team is a lot more impressive than a victory over Duke in a season like the last time Coach K was out. Just something to think about. So, I think it is reasonable to watch the video and decide for yourself.

When I was 20 and playing pickup games, I would sometimes get frustrated and foul someone a little harder than necessary, maybe use my elbows and box out someone who I wouldn't have worried about otherwise. I'd play it off like I didn't mean anything by it, but it wasn't the right way to act. Plus, the things I was frustrated about were so much less than what Grayson is dealing with.

If Grayson had a temper issue two weeks ago, it seems like he would still have one now. Hopefully, he has learned some techniques to manage it better, but I would be surprised if the issue has been completely resolved.

[ricks68]

DukeandMdFan,

I must confess to being skeptical of you due to your posting history - your post history only shows you posting to 3 topics on this forum

1.)why penalizing UNC would be unfair (you said Duke benefited heavily from the rivalry and asked "Should Duke have to return its financial gain from this rivalry for the last 20 years since the product was fraudulent?")
2.)concern over who was given the wins and losses when Coach K is out
3.)posts about Grayson Allen in this thread

Now, I assume the post history is limited to some time frame, but still -with so much positive about Duke basketball it seems very strange a fan would only post on these 3 particular topics. But I will give you the benfit of the doubt and I will assume you are a contrarian fan.

The flaw with your analogy above is that the coach didn't just say "Don't worry about it, move on". He clearly went out of his way to put together a statement for the public regarding this "event". In his own words "I want to make this very clear!" (exclamation point his). And he went to great lengths to not just say don't worry about it, but to explain why, in fact, this was a non-event, that he was in a blind spot, etc. He says "stop judging" and says it was not "as the media and others are portraying". He then describes it as "A GREAT HUSTLE PLAY" (all caps are his). There is more detail there, but you get the point. So I do not know how you can possibly compare this situation to a friend saying "don't worry about it" when your toddler took his toddler's toy. Unless you did not actually read the statement, I do not think its possible to make such an analogy in good faith.

I'll close with the exact same hashtag that Coach Gates' used (that makes his intent and true feelings crystal clear) #givegraysonabreak

While I understand the risk here in me being flamed, I cannot sit by without noting, IMHO, that your post may have crossed the line as far as unwarranted personal attacks go. Just because your own posting history has been limited to an average of only 1 post every 25 days, I do not believe that you are any less qualified to have a valued opinion on the DBR boards. So, please, avoid tainting your own credibility on these boards by stating your own personal opinions about others that post here as a qualifier prior to a response. While I may agree or not agree with your assumption that DukeandMdFan is a contrarian fan, I do not believe that it is within the standards of these boards that I preface my thoughts on this matter by first dissecting your personal posting history in a negative way, and then stating personal opinions about your motives for your postings. I wouldn't even do that to Wheat, as I believe that differing opinions should be allowed on the boards, as long as they are stated in a respectful manner. Otherwise, we would be no different than IC.

(While I think that DukeandMdFan did a good job in defending his posting record, I think that my post above was also needed out of respect for all posters on this board that have contrarian opinions.)

ricks

[Turk]

I never got the Scheyer thing either. And, after speaking with anti-Duke friends, they couldn't give me a response other than Scheyer-face, which is really funny regardless of your allegiance/hatred of basketball players.

Someone in my crew of Scheyer-bashers looked at his wiki page (no idea what provoked him to look) but apparently it goes into gushing great detail about all his many basketball accomplishments. "Hey Turk, did Scheyer's mom write his wiki page? What is it with your Dukies - they even need to win at wiki?"

[Owen Meany]

That's a fair concern/observation.

I don't post much - I'm not good with puns. I have posted on more than just these topics over the years, but not very often...

I suppose that I find the people on this board to be reasonable people open to reasonable discussions. And, there is a desire for new ideas to advance the conversation rather than just "I agree, ____ is great" type comments. Even sporks are limited. So, I usually only post when I think I have an idea or perspective is somehow new to the conversation. .

Thank you for your response.

If you took my post even a fraction as personally as ricks, I sincerely apologize. I was skeptical. I meant this as an admission that my view on your Allen post might be colored by my skepticism. I do think posting history is useful for context – and as you said, you generally only post when you have a new or different perspective. In no way, shape or form did I dream that could be viewed as an “unwarranted personal attack”. It also was not meant to say that you were “less qualified to have a valued opinion". From your response, I am hopeful that you did not see it that way either. But again, my apology if you did.



While I understand the risk here in me being flamed, I cannot sit by without noting, IMHO, that your post may have crossed the line as far as unwarranted personal attacks go. Just because your own posting history has been limited to an average of only 1 post every 25 days, I do not believe that you are any less qualified to have a valued opinion on the DBR boards. So, please, avoid tainting your own credibility on these boards by stating your own personal opinions about others that post here as a qualifier prior to a response. While I may agree or not agree with your assumption that DukeandMdFan is a contrarian fan, I do not believe that it is within the standards of these boards that I preface my thoughts on this matter by first dissecting your personal posting history in a negative way, and then stating personal opinions about your motives for your postings. I wouldn't even do that to Wheat, as I believe that differing opinions should be allowed on the boards, as long as they are stated in a respectful manner. Otherwise, we would be no different than IC.

I believe you read my post much more harshly than it was intended. But that is fine. I am also surprised that you would think your response to me was less personal than my post to DukeandMdFan, but again that is fine. I assume you are a moderator and you have that right. I will try to be more careful not to offend anyone in the future.

I stated upfront my skepticism so DukeandMdFan would know where I was coming from. Perhaps it would have been better if I had been less upfront about it and said “just because you stated _____________, I don't believe that you are any less qualified to have an opinion on the DBR Boards.";) Which brings me to this...


Just because your own posting history has been limited to an average of only 1 post every 25 days, I do not believe that you are any less qualified to have a valued opinion on the DBR boards.

It appears you have “dissected my posting history”.;) I am fine with that. Its mine and I own it. I want to defend myself here, but I have no idea whatsoever what this means. I can only assume that there is some negative inference from the fact that I do not post more frequently. I am guilty of that. I do not spend much time posting on message boards at all. Although I really enjoy reading the boards here, I typically only take the time to post when I feel that someone needs to be defended. Personally, I have never found a correlation between how much someone talks and the value/relevance of what they have to say. But if you or anyone else does, I am OK with that. It is part of my post history, its true, and it provides context .


(While I think that DukeandMdFan did a good job in defending his posting record, I think that my post above was also needed out of respect for all posters on this board that have contrarian opinions.)

If my post somehow upset other posters with “contrarian opinions”, then I apologize for that also. Not everyone agrees, and if they did it would make for boring discussion. Given that questioning the mental stability of an 18 year old has been fair game recently, I would not have thought my post was out of bounds. If my post was so offensive that a response was "needed out of respect for all posters on this board that have contrarian opinions” than I am truly sorry. Surprised, but sorry. I surely did not intend to inhibit DukeandMdFan, much less any other poster on this board who was not even part of this exchange.

[JasonEvans]

This tops all of it though.
https://twitter.com/bieacherreport/status/819330641531727873

A lot of the stuff in this thread lately has been less than awesome...

But the link above is awesome!

-Jason "in other news, I think a careful examination of the photos and video will show that Grayson Allen was on the grassy knoll" Evans

[DukeandMdFan]

Thank you for your response.

If you took my post even a fraction as personally as ricks, I sincerely apologize. I was skeptical. I meant this as an admission that my view on your Allen post might be colored by my skepticism. I do think posting history is useful for context – and as you said, you generally only post when you have a new or different perspective. In no way, shape or form did I dream that could be viewed as an “unwarranted personal attack”. It also was not meant to say that you were “less qualified to have a valued opinion". From your response, I am hopeful that you did not see it that way either. But again, my apology if you did.

Owen Meany, it's all good. I did appreciate the support from ricks68.

9F!

[NSDukeFan]

A lot of the stuff in this thread lately has been less than awesome...

But the link above is awesome!

-Jason "in other news, I think a careful examination of the photos and video will show that Grayson Allen was on the grassy knoll" Evans

That's just silly. Grayson wasn't born yet. I don't know if you can tell from the video where the FBI was heading for the grassy knoll, they were slowed a bit as Grayson's dad stuck his foot out.

[-bdbd]

I thought that this was kinda funny:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/01/11/michigan-state-fans-chant-grayson-allen-at-minnesota-player-for-tripping-incident/?utm_term=.78eee8221afb

[oakvillebluedevil]

A lot of the stuff in this thread lately has been less than awesome...

But the link above is awesome!

-Jason "in other news, I think a careful examination of the photos and video will show that Grayson Allen was on the grassy knoll" Evans

From further down in the same twitter thread, this gave me a chuckle:

https://twitter.com/Trypod1994/status/819357864544321540

[OldPhiKap]

Someone in my crew of Scheyer-bashers looked at his wiki page (no idea what provoked him to look) but apparently it goes into gushing great detail about all his many basketball accomplishments. "Hey Turk, did Scheyer's mom write his wiki page? What is it with your Dukies - they even need to win at wiki?"

If someone is ragging on Scheyer's mom, there's gonna be a fight.

[jv001]

If someone is ragging on Scheyer's mom, there's gonna be a fight.

Where's Jumbo when we really need him? :cool: GoDuke!

[davekay1971]

At work again...

3 questions regarding Grayson today, all from people who follow basketball to some extent, and none of whom are virulently anti-Duke (one, in fact, is a Duke fan but doesn't follow news all that closely).

One of the questions: So is Allen getting kicked off the team? (as punishment for this "incident" with the FSU coach)

The two other questions: What's wrong with that guy, I mean now he pushes a Florida State coach?!

All of them saw or heard something on ESPN or ESPN radio.

This is the effect of ESPN, between sports radio, the web, and TV, on your average sports fan. The perception is that Allen is a kid who has now had TWO MAJOR INCIDENTS since his suspension was lifted. Which obviously makes Allen look like a seriously troubled guy with major problems. And it makes Duke look like a program that is allowing their star to get away with murder.

I'm not in the camp that thinks this is an attempt by ESPN to specifically discredit Allen and Duke. Instead I think it's ESPN hungry for clicks and views, and perfectly willing to commit yellow journalism at the expense of Allen and Duke in the process. Duke and Coach K I worry about less...the first is an institution and the second is a grown man with more than enough clout, seniority, respect, and experience to handle it. But Allen is what, 20, 21 years old? Criticize him for the 3 tripping incidents, fine. But ESPN cravenly attacking him with innuendo and speculation about two "incidents" in which the other parties AREN'T EVEN COMPLAINING is vile.

[ChillinDuke]

<snip>

I'm not in the camp that thinks this is an attempt by ESPN to specifically discredit Allen and Duke. Instead I think it's ESPN hungry for clicks and views, and perfectly willing to commit yellow journalism at the expense of Allen and Duke in the process. Duke and Coach K I worry about less...the first is an institution and the second is a grown man with more than enough clout, seniority, respect, and experience to handle it. But Allen is what, 20, 21 years old? Criticize him for the 3 tripping incidents, fine. But ESPN cravenly attacking him with innuendo and speculation about two "incidents" in which the other parties AREN'T EVEN COMPLAINING is vile.

Yeah, it's borderline disgusting. And for the first time (and for a very, very different reason) I find myself thinking, "Pay the players." Because you have grown men, like Mike Greenberg and Mike Golic, receiving monstrous paychecks to essentially perpetuate what amounts to a serious lie, in my book, that defames a human being for potentially the indefinite future. It's a whole new level of unfair.

And to your earlier points that I snipped, the world is in an interesting period right now. Technology has advanced to the point that just about any person has an outlet to publish content free of charge. As such, you have incredible competition to generate a following, to the point where certain parties are resorting to means that were once thought of to be off limits. News is one of the arenas most affected by this.

Until people are willing and able to filter out the absurdities flying around so readily available and prevalent in day-to-day life (if ever), or until there is a way of policing the "noise" such that news again becomes fact-based and objective, this fight for content will rage on and color the impressionable minds of vast swaths of people who don't have time or interest or ability to fight through the absurdities. I have no idea how this will play out, but I do find it fascinating. And I do believe that it was an incredibly meaningful component of what happened in the U.S. election a few months ago (and I'm not swinging this discussion into politics, for the record) that many, many people did not (a) comprehend as it was unfolding, (b) believe was as powerful as it is, or (c) care to think about.

- Chillin

[DukieInKansas]

I can't believe I succumbed and went to a USAToday story on the visit Grayson made to the FSU bench the other night. I'm actually glad that I did as the video attached to this story was clearer than any I had seen before. http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/brennan/2017/01/11/duke-star-grayson-allen-dirty-play-tripping-shoving-/96466496/

From this, the swipe of GA's arm is clearly shown as a swat to try to knock the ball back into play. He does, indeed, make contact with the ball, sending it away from the bench. (Previous videos that I saw were fuzzy and it looked was swatting at the coach. I thought that was what all the hullabaloo was about.) He then collides with the coach. I think their hips/legs make first contact and GA turns to the side - almost ends up sitting on the coach's lap. His right arm does go into the coach's chest but they have already collided and GA appears to be trying to turn back to the court and get back into the game. I wish the video didn't stop there as the next split seconds would be interesting to see.

My own opinion and others are free to disagree. I did restrain from commenting on the article - I really wanted to know how the writer came down on the two fights and a player kicking an opponent that happened last weekend. The article is big on it may or may not have happened but it GA and Duke brought all this on themselves. I couldn't figure out how to link just the video from the beginning of the article.

[Wahoo2000]

Yeah, it's borderline disgusting. And for the first time (and for a very, very different reason) I find myself thinking, "Pay the players." Because you have grown men, like Mike Greenberg and Mike Golic, receiving monstrous paychecks to essentially perpetuate what amounts to a serious lie, in my book, that defames a human being for potentially the indefinite future. It's a whole new level of unfair.

And to your earlier points that I snipped, the world is in an interesting period right now. Technology has advanced to the point that just about any person has an outlet to publish content free of charge. As such, you have incredible competition to generate a following, to the point where certain parties are resorting to means that were once thought of to be off limits. News is one of the arenas most affected by this.

Until people are willing and able to filter out the absurdities flying around so readily available and prevalent in day-to-day life (if ever), or until there is a way of policing the "noise" such that news again becomes fact-based and objective, this fight for content will rage on and color the impressionable minds of vast swaths of people who don't have time or interest or ability to fight through the absurdities. I have no idea how this will play out, but I do find it fascinating. And I do believe that it was an incredibly meaningful component of what happened in the U.S. election a few months ago (and I'm not swinging this discussion into politics, for the record) that many, many people did not (a) comprehend as it was unfolding, (b) believe was as powerful as it is, or (c) care to think about.

- Chillin

It used to be that money was "A" driving factor in the decisions made by media and news outlets. Now, it's the ONLY factor. This is the world we live in now - decisions aren't made based on what's right or wrong, what's ethical or unethical, they're made based on one thing - what's going to make us the most profit?

I used to think that movie "Idiocracy" was pretty funny....... until I realized it's probably a documentary sent back from the future. :(

[SenatorClayDavis]

We are talking about the network that devoted 7,918 hours of coverage (approximately) to a "scandal" that was based on Walt Anderson misremembering which gauge he used at halftime. The Wells Report is a hate crime against logic. People at ESPN absolutely knew they were peddling Goodell's nonsense, but just kept doubling down.

I am eagerly waiting for Mark Brunell to show up on a Game Day telecast and start sobbing as they discuss Grayson's nefarious deeds.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Taking a few steps back from this, (and a self-imposed 24 hours away from the thread) it is sort of fascinating to me that this issue is so devisive for a group of people with a shared interest in Duke basketball. I can't recall another thread that more pitted "brother against brother" like this thread has.

I hope the Duke locker room has a better sense of cohesion and shared purpose than our esteemed colleagues on this forum.

Let's go Grayson! Let's go Duke! Let's beat the.snot out of some Cards!

(Come back soon, J and K)

[Danke Shane]

All of them saw or heard something on ESPN or ESPN radio.

This is the effect of ESPN, between sports radio, the web, and TV, on your average sports fan. The perception is that Allen is a kid who has now had TWO MAJOR INCIDENTS since his suspension was lifted. Which obviously makes Allen look like a seriously troubled guy with major problems. And it makes Duke look like a program that is allowing their star to get away with murder.



I agree and I wish there was some way we could use the upcoming ESPN's hosting of College Game Day at Duke for the Miami game as a way to make a statement. They must be so used to the adoring masses of media whores who celebrate whenever they show up on campus for a Game Day segment.

Is there any way we could organize an embarrassing counter-ESPN protest during their live broadcast (I forget, do they do them in Cameron or outside in the plaza area? Or better yet, could Duke pull the plug on this (private property?) as a way of making a statement against the biased, negative coverage?

Does ESPN screen the signs/fans that show up in the backgrounds for these events? I'd legit drive down from D.C. for this if we could get the students and fans riled up and anti-ESPN during their segments...

[Tom B.]

"Did you ever play ball, Max?"

That's the line that keeps echoing in my head as I read the latest round of hot takes about Grayson Allen.

"Did you ever play ball, Max?"

It's one of my favorite movie lines. It's from The Natural. The scene comes late in the movie, before the big game. A weakened Roy Hobbs, just out of the hospital, is getting ready in the locker room. Max Mercy, the sportswriter, sits down next to him. Mercy has finally put the pieces together about Hobbs' past, and realized that Hobbs was the young player with whom he'd crossed paths years earlier. The one who struck out the Whammer on three pitches. The one who ended up shot in a hotel room in Chicago, with a dead woman on the street below. Mercy is planning to ruin Hobbs by revealing what he knows. Hobbs and Mercy have this conversation:

Roy Hobbs: Still dogging me, huh, Max?

Max Mercy: End of the road, Hobbs.

Roy Hobbs: You wanna hear what I think our chances are?

Max Mercy: You read my mind.

Roy Hobbs: That takes all of three seconds.

Max Mercy: They come and they go, Hobbs. They come and they go. I’ll be around here longer than you or anybody else here. I'm here to protect this game.

Roy Hobbs: Whose game?

Max Mercy: I do it by making or breaking the likes of you.

[Pause]

Roy Hobbs: Did you ever play ball, Max?

[Pause]

Max Mercy: No, never have.

[Pause]

Max Mercy: But I make it a little more fun to watch, you see. And after today, whether you’re a goat or a hero . . . . you’re gonna make me a great story. See you round, Hobbs.

Here's the scene:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNMzcTPFi8A


Hobbs' question is rhetorical, of course. He knows that Mercy never played. It's Hobbs' way of telling Mercy that he sees through him. The seemingly innocuous question carries an unspoken, but biting, indictment:

"You ignorant, self-important poser. You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?"

And it forces an admission out of Mercy -- that for all his noble talk of protecting the game, he's really just a huckster looking to sell a story.

One thing I've noticed with the two latest "controversies" in the BC and FSU games -- by and large, the hyperventilating isn't coming from people who actually played and coached the game.

Sure, guys like J-Will and Seth Greenberg were as over-the-top as anyone in the immediate aftermath of the Elon trip (and I continue to believe that J-Will, perhaps unwittingly, gave tacit permission for much of the ensuing pile-on with his overheated "Enough!" tweet). But not now.

J-Will's been quiet.

Greenberg said this is nothing.

Dennis Gates, the FSU assistant with whom Grayson collided, issued a 187-word statement that basically amounted to, "Seriously? This is a thing now? Man, y'all need to get lives."

Even odious fraudster Doug Gottlieb seems (for now, at least) to have shut his malevolent yap.

The perpetual flogging is coming mostly from the modern-day Max Mercys -- the know-nothings, the hangers-on, the cold and timid souls who present themselves as "keepers" of the game, but who deep down know they're just part of an entertainment business that's not based on reality, but on creating and then selling a dramatized version of it.

The people who've been in the arena, who actually played and coached the game -- even the ones who are usually jerks -- know better.

The Mercys would be wise, in this case, to take a cue from them.

[Bob Green]

...the cold and timid souls who

neither know victory nor defeat.

[Indoor66]

neither know victory nor defeat.

But are probably closer with defeat....

[Stray Gator]

"Did you ever play ball, Max?"

That's the line that keeps echoing in my head as I read the latest round of hot takes about Grayson Allen.

"Did you ever play ball, Max?"

It's one of my favorite movie lines. It's from The Natural. The scene comes late in the movie, before the big game. A weakened Roy Hobbs, just out of the hospital, is getting ready in the locker room. Max Mercy, the sportswriter, sits down next to him. Mercy has finally put the pieces together about Hobbs' past, and realized that Hobbs was the young player with whom he'd crossed paths years earlier. The one who struck out the Whammer on three pitches. The one who ended up shot in a hotel room in Chicago, with a dead woman on the street below. Mercy is planning to ruin Hobbs by revealing what he knows. Hobbs and Mercy have this conversation:

Roy Hobbs: Still dogging me, huh, Max?

Max Mercy: End of the road, Hobbs.

Roy Hobbs: You wanna hear what I think our chances are?

Max Mercy: You read my mind.

Roy Hobbs: That takes all of three seconds.

Max Mercy: They come and they go, Hobbs. They come and they go. I’ll be around here longer than you or anybody else here. I'm here to protect this game.

Roy Hobbs: Whose game?

Max Mercy: I do it by making or breaking the likes of you.

[Pause]

Roy Hobbs: Did you ever play ball, Max?

[Pause]

Max Mercy: No, never have.

[Pause]

Max Mercy: But I make it a little more fun to watch, you see. And after today, whether you’re a goat or a hero . . . . you’re gonna make me a great story. See you round, Hobbs.
. . .

Nicely done. As the persistent assault on Allen in ESPN's "crusade of the commentators" proceeds even further into the absurdosphere, I'm also reminded of this line directed towards a soulless, cynical journalist from another classic movie:

"You never pushed a noun against a verb except to blow up something."

Here's that scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED3tfRW8mG8

[tbyers11]

I agree and I wish there was some way we could use the upcoming ESPN's hosting of College Game Day at Duke for the Miami game as a way to make a statement. They must be so used to the adoring masses of media whores who celebrate whenever they show up on campus for a Game Day segment.

Is there any way we could organize an embarrassing counter-ESPN protest during their live broadcast (I forget, do they do them in Cameron or outside in the plaza area? Or better yet, could Duke pull the plug on this (private property?) as a way of making a statement against the biased, negative coverage?

Does ESPN screen the signs/fans that show up in the backgrounds for these events? I'd legit drive down from D.C. for this if we could get the students and fans riled up and anti-ESPN during their segments...

I've heard a suggestion that Duke students boycott the Gameday festivities in the morning. I don't think that would work as local kids or others would take their place and cheer. I'm pretty sure they screen signs to an extent and that strongly anti-ESPN signs would not be allowed.

I think a decent statement could be made by the students assembling like normal but then refusing to cheer at all when the cameras turn on. Total silence and maybe hold up 3 fingers in solidarity for Grayson. The only time they should make noise would be to boo their lungs out anytime Jason Williams started to speak. Seems like a good idea to me.

[Sixthman]

I was an undergrad back in the day, before the crazies were the crazies but when we were earning the moniker. We would have turned the abuse of the Grayson Allen situation against ESPN and shamed them. If College Game Day had come to town we would have created so much hostile noise they'd have had to shut down the show, and then we would have cursed them as they packed their luggage. Those who were also there back in the day know this is true. Few people would welcome this now, but in truth, it's not an option. We gave up the ability to do this when the Duke basketball brand and ESPN went into business together and the crazies became part of the show.

[Tom B.]

I'm warming to the idea that the Crazies should get in touch with the spirit of BOG for GameDay. Maybe Ozzie could show up with his air horn.

This situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part. And we're just the guys to do it.

[richardjackson199]

I've heard a suggestion that Duke students boycott the Gameday festivities in the morning. I don't think that would work as local kids or others would take their place and cheer. I'm pretty sure they screen signs to an extent and that strongly anti-ESPN signs would not be allowed.

I think a decent statement could be made by the students assembling like normal but then refusing to cheer at all when the cameras turn on. Total silence and maybe hold up 3 fingers in solidarity for Grayson. The only time they should make noise would be to boo their lungs out anytime Jason Williams started to speak. Seems like a good idea to me.

I love the silence and 3 fingers for Grayson idea.

(Nothing remotely against tbyers who is one of the best posters on this board - I just respectfully disagree with one part). I vote against booing Jason Williams or any current or former Duke basketball player. Jason was a huge part of helping us win our 3rd Natty in a rather spectacular season. He could have been a top 2 pick in the draft, but he chose to return to Duke to graduate in 3 years and try to repeat as National Champions. He routinely demolished Carolina, and the Md game at College Park will always be legendary. He tragically screwed up and lost a very promising NBA career in that motor cycle accident which he thankfully survived. Coach K loved Jason, and no doubt still does.

Jason is doing his best to use his degree and have a successful career as a sports analyst like Jay Bilas. Like Bilas, he's trying to remain objective so people of all fanbases take his opinions seriously. Sometimes he goes overboard or says annoying things. But I'll always vote to give Jason Williams a pass - his jersey is in our rafters and he will always be one of the great ones.

I admit I'm biased. 4 of us were at PF Changs after Jason had signed with the Bulls but before his accident. He walked in, saw my Duke shirt, and came up and talked to us for a while in very friendly fashion. When we finished our meal and tried to pay, Jason had already picked up our check. He's a good guy and a great Duke legend in my book.

[devildeac]

Resurrect the Pilot Life sign...

(changing the name of the company, of course)

[Nepos]

To me, the positives of Craziness were no higher than at the January 1984 game against UNC. Admittedly, I was a freshman and memories tend to be larger-than-life at that age. Welcome honored guests signs, presenting flowers to Dean, and We beg to differ chants were the best possible response to the negative media attention to the Herman Veal game that fed the image of Duke students as elitist, spoiled brats. My "futile and stupid gesture" suggestion is to give them something that is so over-the-top that they have to address the absurdity of their own attention to Graysongate -- burn him in effigy as a sacrifice to the ratings gods (or the equivalent thereof).

[alteran]

Resurrect the Pilot Life sign...

(changing the name of the company, of course)

Now THAT I can get behind.

[alteran]

I've heard a suggestion that Duke students boycott the Gameday festivities in the morning. I don't think that would work as local kids or others would take their place and cheer. I'm pretty sure they screen signs to an extent and that strongly anti-ESPN signs would not be allowed.

I think a decent statement could be made by the students assembling like normal but then refusing to cheer at all when the cameras turn on. Total silence and maybe hold up 3 fingers in solidarity for Grayson. The only time they should make noise would be to boo their lungs out anytime Jason Williams started to speak. Seems like a good idea to me.

A lot of this is tempting (just not the jwill part), but I honestly think it will just keep the story going even more.

I think a few pointed cheers, maybe chant the names of players who actually hurt other players rather than just doing something stupid, and cheering like mad the first couple times Grayson gets the ball (don't let it become a distraction) would be a smarter way to go. Things like that.

Oh, and chant "Deron Washington" whenever Sith Greenberg tries to speak.

[OldPhiKap]

neither know victory nor defeat.

I taped that speech on to the runner of my desk after my first trial -- which of course was a dog and I lost.

It's still there.

[tbyers11]

I love the silence and 3 fingers for Grayson idea.

(Nothing remotely against tbyers who is one of the best posters on this board - I just respectfully disagree with one part). I vote against booing Jason Williams or any current or former Duke basketball player.

No worries. Booing one of our own is probably a bridge too far. His hot take and continued insistence of a draconian punishment combined with his line that "The Coach K who I played for would have held us much more accountable at that moment [after the 2nd incident]" really rubbed me the wrong way.

[Native]

This situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part. And we're just the guys to do it.

To be perfectly frank, GameDay is never a super-fun thing to have on campus anyway. It's a headache for the staff who have to organize it and it's a headache for students who are already devoting tons of time in K-Ville just to get seats to the game. It's also wickedly hard to try and fill Section 17 since it always starts at, like 9:00AM on a Saturday. There's not enough liquor in the universe.

I'm not advocating for anything in particular, but if a really stupid, futile gesture was performed, I'd be willing to wager that a fair amount of people would be happy – behind closed doors, of course – for GameDay to not return to Cameron.

crash a parade float through the gameday set, crazies

[WillJ]

To be perfectly frank, GameDay is never a super-fun thing to have on campus anyway. It's a headache for the staff who have to organize it and it's a headache for students who are already devoting tons of time in K-Ville just to get seats to the game. It's also wickedly hard to try and fill Section 17 since it always starts at, like 9:00AM on a Saturday. There's not enough liquor in the universe.

I'm not advocating for anything in particular, but if a really stupid, futile gesture was performed, I'd be willing to wager that a fair amount of people would be happy – behind closed doors, of course – for GameDay to not return to Cameron.

crash a parade float through the gameday set, crazies

And that foot is me.

[Tom B.]

And that foot is me.

Zero. Point. Zero.


As for GameDay -- you know what would make a statement? Silence. They want a big loud audience, right? It's part of their shtick. So when they first come on the air, instead of giving them noise and craziness, just stand there quietly.

And I like the idea of having everyone hold up three fingers as a sign of support for Grayson, à la The Hunger Games.

[BLPOG]

To be perfectly frank, GameDay is never a super-fun thing to have on campus anyway. It's a headache for the staff who have to organize it and it's a headache for students who are already devoting tons of time in K-Ville just to get seats to the game. It's also wickedly hard to try and fill Section 17 since it always starts at, like 9:00AM on a Saturday. There's not enough liquor in the universe.

I'm not advocating for anything in particular, but if a really stupid, futile gesture was performed, I'd be willing to wager that a fair amount of people would be happy – behind closed doors, of course – for GameDay to not return to Cameron.

crash a parade float through the gameday set, crazies

I remember it as there being too much liquor to fill 17 in the morning.

edit: "remember" might be a bit generous

[jacone21]

crash a parade float through the gameday set, crazies

Ahhh to see Bilas yelling, "All is well!"

[jv001]

I like the idea that about 500 crazies bring a sign that has biggggggggggggg ESPN on it and the wording something like, tell us more about the Academic Fraud committed by The UnCheat University. If that many students held up those signs, surely some of them would air. Total embarrassment for the cheats and ESPN would be fine with me. GoDuke!

[ricks68]

Maybe a bunch of signs with just "Read page 89,stupid." on them. Or, something like "Grayson is no Chris Paul", with a blow-up picture of the punch Paul threw to Julius Hodge's groin. Or, maybe "Page views mean more to ESPN than a young man's future". Or, "ESPN = Fake News". Just so many signs, that the cameras cannot avoid them. Make 'em large and plentiful.

ricks

[ricks68]

I like the idea that about 500 crazies bring a sign that has biggggggggggggg ESPN on it and the wording something like, tell us more about the Academic Fraud committed by The UnCheat University. If that many students held up those signs, surely some of them would air. Total embarrassment for the cheats and ESPN would be fine with me. GoDuke!

Or, "What about UNCheats, ESPN?"

Or, some students should be able to come up with multiple good stuff using the ESPN letters to start words on their signs.

ricks

[jv001]

Or, "What about UNCheats, ESPN?"
Or, some students should be able to come up with multiple good stuff using the ESPN letters to start words on their signs.

ricks

Yeh, I like that one. Get it started ricks68. GoDuke!

[ricks68]

Yeh, I like that one. Get it started ricks68. GoDuke!

I will be at the game, but probably not soon enough to be there for the Game Day stuff.

I think some of the great Crazies from past Crazie glory days need to be consulted on what should be done.;) Then DO it!:mad:

rikcs

[fan345678]

"Make America Grayson Allen"
"Classes at UNC? That's a trip."
"My tutor wrote this sign. BS '05, MBS '09"
"We don't award BS degrees"
"On a trip to Phoenix"
"'tis but a scratch"
"Tar...Nished!"

[OldPhiKap]

"Roy knew"

[MarkD83]

"Make America Grayson Allen"
"Classes at UNC? That's a trip."
"My tutor wrote this sign. BS '05, MBS '09"
"We don't award BS degrees"
"On a trip to Phoenix"
"'tis but a scratch"
"Tar...Nished!"

As an older fan (but not too old). The two phrases in bold are perfect. Make a positive point or one that insults UNC while making light of the whole situation.

At work this week someone tried to get under my skin by asking me what I thought about Grayson Allen, so I made the old joke "I'll tell you next Fall". We laughed and then went on to talk about Coach K's back, Duke's freshmen and the whole tripping thing was a non issue.

[TKG]

Resurrect the Pilot Life sign...

(changing the name of the company, of course)

Jim Thacker and Billy Packer.

[TKG]

"Roy knew"

Dean knew. Guthridge knew. Swofford knew. Roy knew. The Rams Club knew. The "frat boys" knew. The whole damn school knew.

[OldPhiKap]

Dean knew. Guthridge knew. Swofford knew. Roy knew. The Rams Club knew. The "frat boys" knew. The whole damn school knew.

Although the whole thing was really just to boost women's basketball. Of course.

7074

[moonpie23]

it's gotta be something simple, short....


i'd go with:


Roy Knew
Dean Knew


or


PAGE 89


if you had enough of those signs there to spoil the landscape, ESPN's big "day" would be severely limited in camera shots...

[devildeac]

it's gotta be something simple, short...


i'd go with:


Roy Knew
Dean Knew


or


PAGE 89


if you had enough of those signs there to spoil the landscape, ESPN's big "day" would be severely limited in camera shots...

Think about it, Crazies. We're confident y'all can come up with something that would have made Uncle Terry proud.

[alteran]

it's gotta be something simple, short...

i'd go with:


Roy Knew
Dean Knew



Roy knew
Dean too

[superdave]

Roy knew
Dean too

Roy Lied
Academic Integrity Died!

[alteran]

Roy Lied
Academic Integrity Died!

The Carolina Way:
Athletes Get an "A"

[Owen Meany]

IMHO

I usually am skeptical of people protesting media coverage over something like sports. In this case, ESPN's coverage of Allen has been so ridiculous and out-of-bounds that I think it would be well-deserved. GameDay offers a real opportunity for students to hit back at ESPN for this. But they would need to be clever to ensure that it was effective and not something that would be glossed over or ignored.

I would try to come up with something very simple and bold that could be understood/read very quickly and easily (as the crowd is panned),

and that could be easily be reproduced again and again so that it was everywhere and impossible to ignore/keep off camera(large signs, tshirts, etc),

The goal would be to make it so that ESPN would find it embarrassing and extremely difficult to ignore.

I think you would need something extremely simple to gain attention - like this rough example.(if I did this correct)

7077

And the students will have many opportunities to trot out the signs at every game (covered by ESPN or not).

This also ties into a popular news topic and uses ESPN's own logo - so it would be more likely to "stick". ESPN has done a very effective job of labeling Allen so that every little misstep, real or imagined, is magnified. If the students could successfully get this to stick to ESFN, then the network would have to be much more careful about how they cover Allen in the future.

If you were able to use something like this that gets people's attention, it opens the door to many other possibilities to give more info, etc. But you first have to do something effective that is visible enough and embarrassing enough that it gains attention.

[bluedev_92]

Love that - great idea...

[Fish80]

You know, OMG stands for Oh My, Grayson. For his more spectacular dunks.

[Olympic Fan]

IMHO

I usually am skeptical of people protesting media coverage over something like sports. In this case, ESPN's coverage of Allen has been so ridiculous and out-of-bounds that I think it would be well-deserved. GameDay offers a real opportunity for students to hit back at ESPN for this. But they would need to be clever to ensure that it was effective and not something that would be glossed over or ignored.

I would try to come up with something very simple and bold that could be understood/read very quickly and easily (as the crowd is panned),

and that could be easily be reproduced again and again so that it was everywhere and impossible to ignore/keep off camera(large signs, tshirts, etc),

The goal would be to make it so that ESPN would find it embarrassing and extremely difficult to ignore.

I think you would need something extremely simple to gain attention - like this rough example.(if I did this correct)

7077

And the students will have many opportunities to trot out the signs at every game (covered by ESPN or not).

This also ties into a popular news topic and uses ESPN's own logo - so it would be more likely to "stick". ESPN has done a very effective job of labeling Allen so that every little misstep, real or imagined, is magnified. If the students could successfully get this to stick to ESFN, then the network would have to be much more careful about how they cover Allen in the future.

If you were able to use something like this that gets people's attention, it opens the door to many other possibilities to give more info, etc. But you first have to do something effective that is visible enough and embarrassing enough that it gains attention.

While agree with the concept of using GameDay as a forum to express disgust at ESPN's "coverage" of Grayson Allen. I think that anybody planning a protest needs to be careful.

One problem to overcome -- objectionable (to ESPN) signs will not be allowed in the arena. It may be possible to sneak some signage in, but as soon as it is unveiled, it will be confiscated and removed. Don't count on first amendment rights, when it comes to issues like this, you might as well be living in Putin's Russia.

The best concept is some kind of concerted effort from the fans there. Total silence when they come on the air would be great. The problem with this idea is that it's unlikely that the crowd will all be Duke students/partisans. If you could time it right, when the cameras pan the crowd to open the show, maybe we could have the Crazies collectively turn and moon the cameras (although I don't think that would get the reason for our disgust out there). Maybe shouts or chants when the GameDay crew is talking .... I'm not sure how well ESPN can control the audio (and suppress) outside noise. I suspect that lone shouters will be escorted out of the arena.

I see this as a great challenge to the Crazies -- to come up with a way to make our displeasure of ESPN -- for the ridiculous Grayson coverage and for the almost total blackout of coverage on the UNC cheating scandal -- obvious. I won't appreciate any attack on Jason or even Jay -- although I have issues with both.

I'll be watching, hoping that the collective genius of the Crazies can manifest itself.

As started earlier, what we need is a stupid and futile gesture ..

PS somebody mentioned the famous "Pilot Life sucks sign" ... I was there that day and the sign was well disguised. It appeared to be a simple "Pilot Life" sign. The holder waited until the floor camera was pointed at the sign, then flipped the bottom part "sucks" down. It was brilliant and perfectly timed. My only problem was that I had no gripe with Pilot Life, which had made ACC basketball on TV a reality for the period from 1958 to the late 1970s. I kind of appreciated their role in ACC basketball.

[NSDukeFan]

I wonder if Jay is as disgusted with ESPN for exploiting a 20 year old for clicks and ad dollars as he is with the NCAA? Obviously, that is a rhetorical question.

[-jk]

Perhaps a non-stop "Gray-son Al-len, Clap, Clap, Clap-clap-clap"

-jk

[Skydog]

...
"Classes at UNC? That's a trip."
..."

I like this one on many levels. It's humorous and it gets away from the futile, counterproductive "did he or did he not" trip arguments. And it makes the strongest, most indisputable point about the whole mess -- that in the big picture of what routinely goes on in college athletics -- Grayson's antics are very small potatoes. Tiny potatoes actually. Maybe only a potato eye. So it highlights how media and the duke haters are guilty of making mountains out of molehills even when mountains are readily available to them. It reminds them they are in fact ignoring a mountain only 8 miles down the road. I also like how the "That's a trip" part indirectly employs one of the classic smart defense lawyer moves - taking the power away from your opponents accusation by preemptively bringing it up first.

As a complete parenthetical aside -- I've noticed this latter tactic used to great effect recently in Leah Remini's captivating series about the abuses of Scientology. She starts each episode by reading a letter from the cults lawyers which invariably includes a long list of accusations of horrible acts committed by the very person or persons that Leah is about to interview. She reads the letters verbatim, without comment or defense and then immediately moves on with her show. After hearing these types of letter and their accusations read over and over they all start to sound alike and in the process lose their power. After awhile you just hear blah, blah, blah. Much more effective than if she went defensive on any of the issues, arguing they weren't true or didn't make sense, etc.

So, like Leah, I think it makes sense to sidestep the head-on arguments. Point out context - that's where the media is off.

[duke4ever19]

I wonder if Jay is as disgusted with ESPN for exploiting a 20 year old for clicks and ad dollars as he is with the NCAA? Obviously, that is a rhetorical question.

Exactly.

I'm still waiting for Jay Will, Bilas, Uncle Fester and the other people who rightly chastised Allen for his poor sportsmanship to turn their righteous indignation on their own company for continuing to perpetuate controversy where it doesn't exist, just to get web traffic.

I'd put good money down that not one of the aforementioned men would pass a lie detector test if the question was if ESPN was doing the right/ethical thing by promoting the last two Allen (non)stories.

I know I wouldn't have a clear conscience if my company was engaged in that kind of yellow journalism.

[slower]

7078

Something like this. ESPN always loves to see their own name. The trick is to find a word or words that have the letters "ESPN" in them. Off the top of my head:

SPiNEless

Extra
Sensationalistic
Propaganda and
News

I'm sure you can do better. Give it a shot - just has to use all the letters in ESPN.

[NSDukeFan]

7078

Something like this. ESPN always loves to see their own name. The trick is to find a word or words that have the letters "ESPN" in them. Off the top of my head:

SPiNEless

Extra
Sensationalistic
Propaganda and
News

I'm sure you can do better. Give it a shot - just has to use all the letters in ESPN.

I don't think News belongs, unless preceded by fake, but the rest looks good.

[slower]

I don't think News belongs, unless preceded by fake, but the rest looks good.
"Nonsense", instead of "News"?

[NSDukeFan]

"Nonsense", instead of "News"?
Much better, IMO.

[devildeac]

Perhaps a non-stop "Gray-son Al-len, Clap, Clap, Clap-clap-clap"

-jk

I think opposing fans used to chant Huurrlleey (long and drawn out, IIRC) derisively during his 1st and maybe 2nd years (heck, maybe all 4 years:o) and I believe the Crazies turned it into a positive/supportive cheer when he played at CIS.

[OldPhiKap]

I don't think News belongs, unless preceded by fake, but the rest looks good.

I think it's like M-TV being "Music Television." Sort of a vestigial tail.

[sagegrouse]

I think opposing fans used to chant Huurrlleey (long and drawn out, IIRC) derisively during his 1st and maybe 2nd years (heck, maybe all 4 years:o) and I believe the Crazies turned it into a positive/supportive cheer when he played at CIS.

Began, I believe, with Ferry.

[TKG]

I think it's like M-TV being "Music Television." Sort of a vestigial tail.

In the words of Lewis Black: "MTV is to music as KFC is to chicken."

[Monmouth77]

I think the solution is just as simple as T-Shirts that say FREE GRAYSON ALLEN.

[WillJ]

I think the solution is just as simple as T-Shirts that say FREE GRAYSON ALLEN.

I like this a lot.

[ricks68]

I think the solution is just as simple as T-Shirts that say FREE GRAYSON ALLEN.

Yes! That may be the one!!!

Let's see some support here.

(Maybe with other signs or shirts interspersed if necessary like "No more fake news", or Fake News written in a circle with a line diagonally across it or other short sayings without ESPN in them so it will lessen the chance of the cameras not showing them.)

ricks

[ricks68]

Maybe it's time to start listing some of the best suggestions for a vote while still keeping the list open for more. I don't know how to do that, so someone else could set that up so that there is still time to either make the signs or make the shirts, or both.

I also like the Grayson Allen chant with the clapping going on a lot throughout the broadcast.

ricks

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

FREE GRAYSON ALLEN shirts!!!!! Definitely! it's a slam at ESPN, it will give GA a big lift, and Uncle Terry would have been proud! Can't you just see the stands full of 'em?
Love, Ima

[jv001]

FREE GRAYSON ALLEN shirts!!!!! Definitely! it's a slam at ESPN, it will give GA a big lift, and Uncle Terry would have been proud! Can't you just see the stands full of 'em?
Love, Ima

I'm with Ima on this one. I like the tee shirt idea, but sill would like to see some signs linking the cheating tarholes with ESPN. GoDuke!

[kmspeaks]

I think the solution is just as simple as T-Shirts that say FREE GRAYSON ALLEN.

or GIVE GRAYSON A BREAK, playing off the FSU coach's hashtag

[billy]

FREE GRAYSON ALLEN shirts!!!!! Definitely! it's a slam at ESPN, it will give GA a big lift, and Uncle Terry would have been proud! Can't you just see the stands full of 'em?
Love, Ima

I am all for supporting Grayson and defending him. However, and this isn't directed personally at you Ima, I think we should consider how the public in general, i.e. non-Duke fans, sees our messages. I don't want to particularly relate the common personal fouls that Grayson has committed (per the rulebook) seen in the same light as PJ Hairston's acts that were responded to with FREE PJ T-shirts by UNC fans. If I were an opposing fan I would see the FREE GRAYSON shirts as just another example of whiny, over privileged Duke fans who just want their star back at any cost. Psychologically, we'd be seen as telling people what they should think about the Allen situation with that message. It seems that the general public is becoming more and more apathetic about the situation as time goes by; I don't think we want to do too much to stir it back up. I'd love it if Wahoo2000 or Packman74/Packman97 would weigh in on this. I personally would rather see #personalfoul and #rule89 shirts.

Calling ESPN (or FSPN or whatever else) out for making a mountain out of common personal fouls (fake news) is what I would prefer. Holding them accountable is what I would prefer. Asking Jay Williams and Jay Bilas why they're making such a big deal out of personal fouls and whether they are getting pressure from the top, perhaps the CEO, would be great. Given that Seth Greenberg has been surprisingly reasonable recently on this topic I don't think I would push him too much on it. I personally think Seth is just a contrarian, that now that everyone has jumped on the Allen/Duke is evil bandwagon he takes the opposite stance.

Just my $(-)0.02 (that's right, I'll pay you 2 cents for having read my opinion)

[ricks68]

I am all for supporting Grayson and defending him. However, and this isn't directed personally at you Ima, I think we should consider how the public in general, i.e. non-Duke fans, sees our messages. I don't want to particularly relate the common personal fouls that Grayson has committed (per the rulebook) seen in the same light as PJ Hairston's acts that were responded to with FREE PJ T-shirts by UNC fans. If I were an opposing fan I would see the FREE GRAYSON shirts as just another example of whiny, over privileged Duke fans who just want their star back at any cost. Psychologically, we'd be seen as telling people what they should think about the Allen situation with that message. It seems that the general public is becoming more and more apathetic about the situation as time goes by; I don't think we want to do too much to stir it back up. I'd love it if Wahoo2000 or Packman74/Packman97 would weigh in on this. I personally would rather see #personalfoul and #rule89 shirts.

Calling ESPN (or FSPN or whatever else) out for making a mountain out of common personal fouls (fake news) is what I would prefer. Holding them accountable is what I would prefer. Asking Jay Williams and Jay Bilas why they're making such a big deal out of personal fouls and whether they are getting pressure from the top, perhaps the CEO, would be great. Given that Seth Greenberg has been surprisingly reasonable recently on this topic I don't think I would push him too much on it. I personally think Seth is just a contrarian, that now that everyone has jumped on the Allen/Duke is evil bandwagon he takes the opposite stance.

Just my $(-)0.02 (that's right, I'll pay you 2 cents for having read my opinion)

I agree with your assessment and t-shirts, but it is not "rule" 89. It's the rule that is on "page" 89. Right?

ricks

[billy]

I agree with your assessment and t-shirts, but it is not "rule" 89. It's the rule that is on "page" 89. Right?

ricks

You're correct! My bad - Rule 10, section 1, Art. 1

[TruBlu]

In the post game handshake line, Pitino had what appeared to be a few words of encouragement for Grayson. It would be interesting to know what was said.

[weezie]

"Illegitimi non carborundum"

I'm a good Latin lip reader.

[NashvilleDevil]

I think the Grayson bashing by espn is about to turn. This morning Linda Cohn asked DeAndre Ayton how he would react if Grayson tripped him. This is a kid who will never play against Grayson in college and she asks this? ESPN has gone a little far in their witch hunt of Grayson and I think we will begin to see a turn in Grayson coverage.

[FadedTackyShirt]

The Zapruder film treatment of Grayson has been absurd, but the sequence with Mitchell (dragged Grayson down and slapped him in the face) would have been national news if the roles had been reversed. Not as blatant as Deron Washington kicking Melch in the face, but yikes!

[Spanarkel]

The Zapruder film treatment of Grayson has been absurd, but the sequence with Mitchell (dragged Grayson down and slapped him in the face) would have been national news if the roles had been reversed. Not as blatant as Deron Washington kicking Melch in the face, but yikes!

Seth Greenburg said Mitchell's action was "unacceptable," but SG wouldn't comment when asked if it was intentional(pretty certain it was intentional). Will this play be reviewed by the estimable John Swofford and his office?

[weezie]

...This morning Linda Cohn asked DeAndre Ayton how he would react if Grayson tripped him...

She's tiresome. What's with the long face?

[DukeandMdFan]

I am all for supporting Grayson and defending him. However, and this isn't directed personally at you Ima, I think we should consider how the public in general, i.e. non-Duke fans, sees our messages. I don't want to particularly relate the common personal fouls that Grayson has committed (per the rulebook) seen in the same light as PJ Hairston's acts that were responded to with FREE PJ T-shirts by UNC fans. If I were an opposing fan I would see the FREE GRAYSON shirts as just another example of whiny, over privileged Duke fans who just want their star back at any cost. Psychologically, we'd be seen as telling people what they should think about the Allen situation with that message. It seems that the general public is becoming more and more apathetic about the situation as time goes by; I don't think we want to do too much to stir it back up. I'd love it if Wahoo2000 or Packman74/Packman97 would weigh in on this. I personally would rather see #personalfoul and #rule89 shirts.

Calling ESPN (or FSPN or whatever else) out for making a mountain out of common personal fouls (fake news) is what I would prefer. Holding them accountable is what I would prefer. Asking Jay Williams and Jay Bilas why they're making such a big deal out of personal fouls and whether they are getting pressure from the top, perhaps the CEO, would be great. Given that Seth Greenberg has been surprisingly reasonable recently on this topic I don't think I would push him too much on it. I personally think Seth is just a contrarian, that now that everyone has jumped on the Allen/Duke is evil bandwagon he takes the opposite stance.

Just my $(-)0.02 (that's right, I'll pay you 2 cents for having read my opinion)

Caveat, i usually root for Duke to beat Maryland and my favorite college basketball player usually plays for Duke. However, this season my favorite player is Melo Trimble.

I like the "Give Grayson a Break" much better than the "Free Grayson" tee shirts. To me, the "Free Grayson" tee-shirts makes light of police brutality against African Americans. "Give Grayson a Break" recognizes the FSU coach and also points out that the media is blowing it out of proportion.

Both ideas remind me of the Penn State fans showing overwhelming support of Joe Paterno and the football program on a nationally televised football game. Admittedly, comparing the two offenses is like comparing a candle on a birthday cake and a California wildfire. The similarity, however, is the intended message that we support our guy despite what he allegedly did - an idea that some insiders may find very appealing and an idea that some outsiders may find unsavory. And, for anyone who thinks Grayson Allen did nothing wrong, he was very recently suspended indefinitely by Coach K. I believe that a lot more people know that Grayson Allen was suspended for tripping than know of the post-suspension incidents.

Just my $.02, from someone who hasn't been in Cameron since Jabari Parker was playing.

[kmspeaks]

The similarity, however, is the intended message that we support our guy despite what he allegedly did - an idea that some insiders may find very appealing and an idea that some outsiders may find unsavory. And, for anyone who thinks Grayson Allen did nothing wrong, he was very recently suspended indefinitely by Coach K. I believe that a lot more people know that Grayson Allen was suspended for tripping than know of the post-suspension incidents.

Just my $.02, from someone who hasn't been in Cameron since Jabari Parker was playing.

I haven't seen or heard anyone try and claim Grayson didn't do anything wrong. The problem is the punishment, meaning the media's treatment not K's discipline, doesn't fit the crime. As far as what outsiders may find unsavory I think this may be a good time to paraphrase Ol Roy, I don't give a ______ about what outsiders think right now. The overwhelming majority will hate Duke no matter what so who cares what they say.

[DukeandMdFan]

I haven't seen or heard anyone try and claim Grayson didn't do anything wrong. The problem is the punishment, meaning the media's treatment not K's discipline, doesn't fit the crime. As far as what outsiders may find unsavory I think this may be a good time to paraphrase Ol Roy, I don't give a ______ about what outsiders think right now. The overwhelming majority will hate Duke no matter what so who cares what they say.

I'm not as clear as I would like to be...

I wanted to point out that a casual viewer might not know any more than Grayson tripped players, was suspended by Coach K, and returned to play.

I think "GIVE GRAYSON A BREAK" is clever and perfect for everyone familiar with the FSU Coach's response (people such as Cameron Crazies and people on page 19 on a DBR thread). It's like an "inside joke", people who "don't get it" could interpret it incorrectly - and that may be fine.

[duke4ever19]

I'm not as clear as I would like to be...

I wanted to point out that a casual viewer might not know any more than Grayson tripped players, was suspended by Coach K, and returned to play.

I think "GIVE GRAYSON A BREAK" is clever and perfect for everyone familiar with the FSU Coach's response (people such as Cameron Crazies and people on page 19 on a DBR thread). It's like an "inside joke", people who "don't get it" could interpret it incorrectly - and that may be fine.

I think we could add the perception that Grayson was let off too easy which is an injustice.

The problem is that sometimes people decide to take matters into their own hands to even the score. I hope the incident at Louisville today, if intentional, was not a manifestation of that, especially because it would be rather easy for a player to feel he has the blessing of the public and media to dish out some "karma."

[Spanarkel]

I think we could add the perception that Grayson was let off too easy which is an injustice.

The problem is that sometimes people decide to take matters into their own hands to even the score. I hope the incident at Louisville today, if intentional, was not a manifestation of that, especially because it would be rather easy for a player to feel he has the blessing of the public and media to dish out some "karma."

Dino Gaudio, who doesn't seem to drink the ESPN Kool Aid, labeled the incident "payback."

[MPandolfi]

Dino Gaudio, who doesn't seem to drink the ESPN Kool Aid, labeled the incident "payback."

He must have missed Jaylen Johnson's elbow last year.

[DukieInKansas]

Dino Gaudio, who doesn't seem to drink the ESPN Kool Aid, labeled the incident "payback."


He must have missed Jaylen Johnson's elbow last year.

Wasn't the trip GA's payback for being mugged? So they should have been "even".

[Spanarkel]

Wasn't the trip GA's payback for being mugged? So they should have been "even".

The trip(2/8/16) preceded the Jaylen Johnson elbow(2/20/16) by several games.

[devildeac]

Dino Gaudio, who doesn't seem to drink the ESPN Kool Aid, labeled the incident "payback."

Well, I can add the inept deeno gawdio to my list of despicables, too now. Really? Hitting someone in the face twice is payback? This isn't WWE/WBC/MMA. Yet another d-bag.

[Sixthman]

http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/watch-grayson-allen-grabs-louisville-players-arm-gets-smacked-in-the-face/

Grayson was fouled twice on this play with no call then got slapped in the face. Now the story is he fouled the other guy and faked getting slapped in the face.

[oakvillebluedevil]

I think blindly calling the slap "payback" may be placing too grand a narrative on a frustrated college kid making a dirty play after a chippy sequence in a very physical, competitive game.

Now, we are talking about the same people who made deflategate last two years and turned a couple of tripping incidents into a multi-year saga of villainy, but I just don't think all actions in Duke basketball games revolve around the great karmic journey of Grayson Allen. I just think the UL kid got a cheap shot in and should have been Td up.

Nothing more, nothing less

[DukieInKansas]

I think blindly calling the slap "payback" may be placing too grand a narrative on a frustrated college kid making a dirty play after a chippy sequence in a very physical, competitive game.

Now, we are talking about the same people who made deflategate last two years and turned a couple of tripping incidents into a multi-year saga of villainy, but I just don't think all actions in Duke basketball games revolve around the great karmic journey of Grayson Allen. I just think the UL kid got a cheap shot in and should have been Td up.

Nothing more, nothing less

You will never make it on TV. Way too much logic here.

[DukieInKansas]

http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/watch-grayson-allen-grabs-louisville-players-arm-gets-smacked-in-the-face/

Grayson was fouled twice on this play with no call then got slapped in the face. Now the story is he fouled the other guy and faked getting slapped in the face.

Best comment on the "article" - "AND when Mitchell sprained his ankle -Allen caused it---even tho he was twenty feet away...."

[Wahoo2000]

I am all for supporting Grayson and defending him. However, and this isn't directed personally at you Ima, I think we should consider how the public in general, i.e. non-Duke fans, sees our messages. I don't want to particularly relate the common personal fouls that Grayson has committed (per the rulebook) seen in the same light as PJ Hairston's acts that were responded to with FREE PJ T-shirts by UNC fans. If I were an opposing fan I would see the FREE GRAYSON shirts as just another example of whiny, over privileged Duke fans who just want their star back at any cost. Psychologically, we'd be seen as telling people what they should think about the Allen situation with that message. It seems that the general public is becoming more and more apathetic about the situation as time goes by; I don't think we want to do too much to stir it back up. I'd love it if Wahoo2000 or Packman74/Packman97 would weigh in on this. I personally would rather see #personalfoul and #rule89 shirts.

Calling ESPN (or FSPN or whatever else) out for making a mountain out of common personal fouls (fake news) is what I would prefer. Holding them accountable is what I would prefer. Asking Jay Williams and Jay Bilas why they're making such a big deal out of personal fouls and whether they are getting pressure from the top, perhaps the CEO, would be great. Given that Seth Greenberg has been surprisingly reasonable recently on this topic I don't think I would push him too much on it. I personally think Seth is just a contrarian, that now that everyone has jumped on the Allen/Duke is evil bandwagon he takes the opposite stance.

Just my $(-)0.02 (that's right, I'll pay you 2 cents for having read my opinion)

If you really want my .02, the fastest way for this thing to go away is....... to do nothing. The story has been the top line of everything since the elon game, and reached an absolute fevered pitch since Grayson's return from suspension. These kind of "outrage" stories typically fizzle out (somewhat) when there's no new angle for a couple of weeks. If Allen doesn't REALLY screw up, and just has a couple of overanalyzed incidents, they're going to move on to something else (as the main focus of "news" anyway). An organized protest of any kind, though perhaps maybe making Duke fans feel a little better, would only bring sustained top-level coverage as a new "juicy tidbit" for the talking heads. Better not to give them (or the Anti-Duke crowd) a reason to keep harping on it.

You guys should do what I suspect K probably told Grayson to do, ignore it and just focus on things you can control. I'm sure you guys are probably all down today after the loss @Louisville, but March is still a looooooong ways away. If nothing else happens to "stir up" the situation, this is going to be a background (not foreground) story by March. Especially since I think getting Jefferson back makes you guys a top 10ish squad. If the noise dies down a bit, Allen will probably play better too and have you looking more like a top 5 team.

Oh, and if Giles happens to start performing like a #1 prospect (though I'm becoming skeptical that will happen at this point), you guys will be in the mix for a ff/title at the end of the year. I don't think any ACC team is going to get a 1 seed, but there are going to be some DANGEROUS 2-6 seeds from our league this year.

[jv001]

If you really want my .02, the fastest way for this thing to go away is.... to do nothing. The story has been the top line of everything since the elon game, and reached an absolute fevered pitch since Grayson's return from suspension. These kind of "outrage" stories typically fizzle out (somewhat) when there's no new angle for a couple of weeks. If Allen doesn't REALLY screw up, and just has a couple of overanalyzed incidents, they're going to move on to something else (as the main focus of "news" anyway). An organized protest of any kind, though perhaps maybe making Duke fans feel a little better, would only bring sustained top-level coverage as a new "juicy tidbit" for the talking heads. Better not to give them (or the Anti-Duke crowd) a reason to keep harping on it.

You guys should do what I suspect K probably told Grayson to do, ignore it and just focus on things you can control. I'm sure you guys are probably all down today after the loss @Louisville, but March is still a looooooong ways away. If nothing else happens to "stir up" the situation, this is going to be a background (not foreground) story by March. Especially since I think getting Jefferson back makes you guys a top 10ish squad. If the noise dies down a bit, Allen will probably play better too and have you looking more like a top 5 team.

Oh, and if Giles happens to start performing like a #1 prospect (though I'm becoming skeptical that will happen at this point), you guys will be in the mix for a ff/title at the end of the year. I don't think any ACC team is going to get a 1 seed, but there are going to be some DANGEROUS 2-6 seeds from our league this year.

You have some great observations on this, but I don't think it's going away until Grayson goes away(NBA). There are too many Duke haters in this world and now they have the next Duke white player to hate on as well. In the game today, Grayson was slapped not one time but two times by the same player on the same play. The replay showed it as I saw it in full speed and our own Jay 'traitor" Bilas more or less said Grayson had it coming. If that's the case, the players Grayson tripped, had it coming as well for the physical abuse he suffered at their hands. I do agree the best thing Grayson should do is just keep playing through the booing, holding, slapping and punching he receives. It will make him a better man and who knows, he might just use the treatment for more energy to play a full 40 minutes. GoDuke!

[sagegrouse]

You have some great observations on this, but I don't think it's going away until Grayson goes away(NBA). There are too many Duke haters in this world and now they have the next Duke white player to hate on as well. In the game today, Grayson was slapped not one time but two times by the same player on the same play. The replay showed it as I saw it in full speed and our own Jay 'traitor" Bilas more or less said Grayson had it coming. If that's the case, the players Grayson tripped, had it coming as well for the physical abuse he suffered at their hands. I do agree the best thing Grayson should do is just keep playing through the booing, holding, slapping and punching he receives. It will make him a better man and who knows, he might just use the treatment for more energy to play a full 40 minutes. GoDuke!

JV001 -- This is an over-the-top post....

"Duke haters" -- you mean the pimply-faced adolescents that hang out on sports internet? Surely, the opposing fans don't get that term just for cheering (and holding signs, some of which were pretty funny). And isn't Duke the most popular basketball team as well as the most disliked?

"Duke white player" ... give me a break! Grayson was the most recognizable player in college hoops, even before all of this junk. Don't compound the problem.

"Jay 'Traitor' Bilas?" Uhhh -- what? He's the lead basketball analyst for ESPN and is highly respected for many things, including having strong opinions. As someone with two Duke degrees and a stint on K's coaching staff, he is loyal to both K and Duke, but he has a job to do. You will note that Bilas did not come down nearly as hard as other commentators did on Grayson -- "bizarre situation," is all he said. As a proper barrister, he knows the difference between "flagrant 1" fouls and truly dirty play that leads to injuries.

[duke4ever19]

Grayson has the entire week to stay out of the news. No games till next Saturday. We all need this short break from the Grayson Allen version of the Truman Show.

[Furniture]

In the post game handshake line, Pitino had what appeared to be a few words of encouragement for Grayson. It would be interesting to know what was said.

(About Grayson Allen) "I happen to think I'm in the minority. I happen to think he is a terrific young man. I happen to think it's a reflex action like someone throwing an elbow. He's a highly, highly intelligent young man, so why would you do it? I think he's a terrific young man who made a mistake. You know and he made three of them. But I think it's a reflex action when he does something wrong, he'll lunge out or he'll trip somebody. But he's a good person. I know he's a good person. I checked it out. You know a lot of people question Coach K (Krzyzewski). And Mike doesn't need to win any more games. The bottom line is he's a West Point grad that over-disciplines. Everybody always says, 'he only sat one game'. You can bury a young man. I mean you see how everyone treats him on the road you got that at Florida State. You can bury a young man. So this is all about preserving a young man. I happen to think, I happen to know, he's a terrific young man who keeps making these mistakes when he does something wrong. He'll cure it. He's a terrific player, a terrific guy and he just made a mistake. He tripped one of my players. I know Mike very well. He's an over-discipline guy. Believe me, that kid's paying the price in different ways. You hear the crowds everywhere he goes. They bury him. He's the modern day Christian Laettner right now. I think he happens to be a terrific person who's made some mistakes. I don't think he'll make it again. That's my opinion."

(Did you say something to him afterwards?) "I said you're a terrific young man. Don't get down about that. It's behind you. Just keep on going."

[Furniture]

(How did you think that Grayson Allen dealt with that negative reaction from the fans today?) "I don't think it bothers him. Look, you're on the road - that's supposed to happen. Unless something has changed in college basketball. If you are a good player - and Grayson's a really good player - you go on the road the opposing team is supposed to say stuff. If you have a good crowd, and I think these people have a good crowd. I think most of the places, the venues that we will play in the ACC, the majority of them have good crowds. So as a player, you should expect it. He shouldn't be surprised by it if you are a good player and so I don't think that bothers him at all. It's something for everyone to write about and think, but I don't think that bothers him at all."

[Steven43]

Bilas and Jay Williams should step in and say "enough is enough - ESPN needs to back off of this kid with its hysterical coverage."
I hope you're a patient person if you're waiting for Jason Williams to come to the aid of Grayson Allen or anything else related to Duke. This guy is as disloyal as they come. I used to think Jay Bilas was bad, but Jason Williams has taken it to another level altogether.

And the self-serving letter of supposed advice he wrote to Grayson is laughable after he (Williams), more than anyone, stabbed him in the back in front of the world when Grayson most needed someone, anyone, to come to his aid. I respect--and greatly admire, in many cases--every current or former Duke Basketball player except for him.

[DukeDevilDeb]

I hope you're a patient person if you're waiting for Jason Williams to come to the aid of Grayson Allen or anything else related to Duke. This guy is as disloyal as they come. I used to think Jay Bilas was bad, but Jason Williams has taken it to another level altogether.

And the self-serving letter of supposed advice he wrote to Grayson is laughable after he (Williams), more than anyone, stabbed him in the back in front of the world when Grayson most needed someone, anyone, to come to his aid. I respect--and greatly admire, in many cases--every current or former Duke Basketball player except for him.

For many years, Jason was one of my favorite players. I had him in class, got to know him well, and really enjoyed watching his skill set mature up and through the 2001 National Championship. One thing that always bothered me was his choice not to work on free throws. That was an obvious area of weakness, and he could have created a major change in the outcome of 2002 NC had he done so. But he knew he was going hi in the draft, and that seemed to be all that mattered.

We all know what happened in Chicago. How Jason has the cojones to criticize any other player for immaturity and bad decision making after that is beyond my comprehension. The kid should be kneeling and thanking God every day that he is still alive! I know he went through a rough time (although I haven't read his book) and that in all likelihood, he still struggles with what he lost. But that was entirely his fault.

Honestly from a smart and knowledge analyst (who did or didn't go to Duke), his behavior after the last tripping incident was beyond the pale. No one else (except Seth Greenberg of course) had as crazed a reaction as Jason. I don't expect him to defend everything Duke Blue; Jay Bilas certainly doesn't. But I do expect him to be even handed in his professional role.

Jason fell from near the top of my all-time favorite list to the bottom. He has a long way to go to prove that HE has the maturity to handle his role as a commentator. I dread the idea that Game Day is going to be at Duke because that means Jason will be there. May he watch Jay Bilas and learn to behavior.

Go Devils!

[PackMan97]

I am all for supporting Grayson and defending him. However, and this isn't directed personally at you Ima, I think we should consider how the public in general, i.e. non-Duke fans, sees our messages. I don't want to particularly relate the common personal fouls that Grayson has committed (per the rulebook) seen in the same light as PJ Hairston's acts that were responded to with FREE PJ T-shirts by UNC fans. If I were an opposing fan I would see the FREE GRAYSON shirts as just another example of whiny, over privileged Duke fans who just want their star back at any cost. Psychologically, we'd be seen as telling people what they should think about the Allen situation with that message. It seems that the general public is becoming more and more apathetic about the situation as time goes by; I don't think we want to do too much to stir it back up. I'd love it if Wahoo2000 or Packman74/Packman97 would weigh in on this. I personally would rather see #personalfoul and #rule89 shirts.

Calling ESPN (or FSPN or whatever else) out for making a mountain out of common personal fouls (fake news) is what I would prefer. Holding them accountable is what I would prefer. Asking Jay Williams and Jay Bilas why they're making such a big deal out of personal fouls and whether they are getting pressure from the top, perhaps the CEO, would be great. Given that Seth Greenberg has been surprisingly reasonable recently on this topic I don't think I would push him too much on it. I personally think Seth is just a contrarian, that now that everyone has jumped on the Allen/Duke is evil bandwagon he takes the opposite stance.

Just my $(-)0.02 (that's right, I'll pay you 2 cents for having read my opinion)

Hey, I've been called out!

All I need to know is how UNC fans feel about it...if it makes them mad, Grayson Allen needs to keep doing it. I'm pretty up front that while I enjoy seeing Duke win (when not playing the Pack) your main purpose to me is to piss on Carolina and their fans :) So, in some respects I enjoy seeing Allen be the villian.

That said, as a neutral observer it's fracking ridiculous. The biggest problem as I see it is that "tripping" is one of those fouls that has always been in "poor taste". I think most folks would have far less problem with Allen getting into a shouting match with someone and then each starts throwing haymakers. Fighting is something you do because you are a "man", tripping is something you do because you are a [______] (insert various derogatories). Part of it is that folks love to hate on great white Duke players (for various reasons), but part of it is also the type of foul and the repetition of that foul. At the end of the day, I would rather see Duke play with Allen then without and think that other teams get away with far more (see Carolina cheating over the span of four decades). To this point Allen has been punished more for tripping a player more than the entirety of UNC's athletic department has been punished for running thousands of athletes through completely fake courses. It seems that justice is really messed up in this case.

I say do what you want and outside fans be darned...besides, that's what water cooler talk is all about. If we all played nice and got along, the Triangle wouldn't be a paradise for college fans.

[Tom B.]

To this point Allen has been punished more for tripping a player more than the entirety of UNC's athletic department has been punished for running thousands of athletes through completely fake courses. It seems that justice is really messed up in this case.

Preach it, brother.

Now, if only we could figure out how to fit that sentiment on a poster-sized sign for GameDay.

[ricks68]

Preach it, brother.

Now, if only we could figure out how to fit that sentiment on a poster-sized sign for GameDay.

How about something like: Overt cheating OK, Impeding player not OK. (In shorter terms somehow)

ricks

[Ultrarunner]

How about something like: Overt cheating OK, Impeding player not OK. (In shorter terms somehow)

ricks

GA, OMG! UNCheating? Wuh?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

For many years, Jason was one of my favorite players. I had him in class, got to know him well, and really enjoyed watching his skill set mature up and through the 2001 National Championship. One thing that always bothered me was his choice not to work on free throws. That was an obvious area of weakness, and he could have created a major change in the outcome of 2002 NC had he done so. But he knew he was going hi in the draft, and that seemed to be all that mattered.

We all know what happened in Chicago. How Jason has the cojones to criticize any other player for immaturity and bad decision making after that is beyond my comprehension. The kid should be kneeling and thanking God every day that he is still alive! I know he went through a rough time (although I haven't read his book) and that in all likelihood, he still struggles with what he lost. But that was entirely his fault.

Honestly from a smart and knowledge analyst (who did or didn't go to Duke), his behavior after the last tripping incident was beyond the pale. No one else (except Seth Greenberg of course) had as crazed a reaction as Jason. I don't expect him to defend everything Duke Blue; Jay Bilas certainly doesn't. But I do expect him to be even handed in his professional role.

Jason fell from near the top of my all-time favorite list to the bottom. He has a long way to go to prove that HE has the maturity to handle his role as a commentator. I dread the idea that Game Day is going to be at Duke because that means Jason will be there. May he watch Jay Bilas and learn to behavior.

Go Devils!

You should read his memoir. Brutally honest about his shortcomings. Quite a fascinating book.

[richardjackson199]

What do you do when some moron blogger unfairly criticizes your kid?

Probably my favorite Duke parent ever has the answer:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/jahlil-okafor%E2%80%99s-father-threatens-to-%E2%80%98slap-the-s-%E2%80%99-out-of-sixers-blogger/ar-AAlSHLS?li=BBnba9I

[jv001]

What do you do when some moron blogger unfairly criticizes your kid?

Probably my favorite Duke parent ever has the answer:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/jahlil-okafor%E2%80%99s-father-threatens-to-%E2%80%98slap-the-s-%E2%80%99-out-of-sixers-blogger/ar-AAlSHLS?li=BBnba9I

Another reason we should be careful what we post about our own Duke players. Lot's of people read this site. GoDuke!

[Skydog]

What do you do when some moron blogger unfairly criticizes your kid?

Probably my favorite Duke parent ever has the answer:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/jahlil-okafor%E2%80%99s-father-threatens-to-%E2%80%98slap-the-s-%E2%80%99-out-of-sixers-blogger/ar-AAlSHLS?li=BBnba9I

I love it!

[devil84]

A nice piece by Steve Weissman from the N&O (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article126882169.html), "Jeff Capel says scrutiny of Grayson Allen is ‘uncharted territory.’"

From the article, Coach Capel says,

“Obviously there’s a lot of other stuff with Grayson,” Capel said Monday. “I don’t think it’s just on the road. It is at home with the intense scrutiny because the scrutiny is not coming just from the fans. The scrutiny is coming from media. That’s the reality of the situation. There are things that have been said in the media about him that are not right just like some of the things that Grayson has done have not been right.

“So you are dealing with a situation ... that in all my years of watching and being around basketball ... I’ve never seen this before. I especially have never seen it directed toward a college kid. So it’s uncharted territory.”