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Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-01-2017, 11:03 AM
There is so much frustration on this board right now for many different reasons. The most divisive topic seems to be Allen's actions/suspension and media coverage thereof.
I have rarely seen such allegations tossed back and forth between fans rooting for the same team. It seems that we've drawn out lines in the sand and decided that if you want Grayson back ASAP, you are blind to the grave mistakes he has made and need to trust K's process and have a "win at all costs" mindset. And, if you think Allen's punishment is warranted, that you are drinking the ESPN kool-aid, don't appreciate Grayson's competitive spirit, and aren't a real supporter of Duke sports.

Folks, we are all Duke fans here. We all want the best for our team and for Grayson as a player and as a human being. Casting accusations at one another about what "true Duke fans" do or don't think about the situation takes away from the more important issue that we are ALL Duke fans, and the team is going to need to dig deep to overcome this distraction.

This is just my two cents. Feel free to flame away at me. I would just rather see us talk about the more relevant parts of this team's growth - Luke's year, Matt's shot, Harry's progress, etc.

killerleft
01-01-2017, 12:29 PM
Sure, as soon as all the Grayson bashers admit they would welcome a renewal of Hammurabi's Code as long as the the punishment was increased to two eyes for an eye, etc. How's that?:):o

The divisive nature of this subject is unsettling, and there seems to be no middle ground.

Papa John
01-01-2017, 03:33 PM
There is so much frustration on this board right now for many different reasons. The most divisive topic seems to be Allen's actions/suspension and media coverage thereof.
I have rarely seen such allegations tossed back and forth between fans rooting for the same team. It seems that we've drawn out lines in the sand and decided that if you want Grayson back ASAP, you are blind to the grave mistakes he has made and need to trust K's process and have a "win at all costs" mindset. And, if you think Allen's punishment is warranted, that you are drinking the ESPN kool-aid, don't appreciate Grayson's competitive spirit, and aren't a real supporter of Duke sports.

Folks, we are all Duke fans here. We all want the best for our team and for Grayson as a player and as a human being. Casting accusations at one another about what "true Duke fans" do or don't think about the situation takes away from the more important issue that we are ALL Duke fans, and the team is going to need to dig deep to overcome this distraction.

This is just my two cents. Feel free to flame away at me. I would just rather see us talk about the more relevant parts of this team's growth - Luke's year, Matt's shot, Harry's progress, etc.

Personally, I don't really care about anyone's opinion of me or my views on Grayson's suspension or the media coverage of the whole series of events... So I'll be happy to share my views, for what they're worth...


The media coverage of this situation has been, to put it bluntly, reprehensible...

First of all [and I'm sure I'll get some flack for sharing this view about J-Will], I don't want to hear what guys like J-Will or Seth have to say about "discipline." We're talking about one guy who had such a firm grasp of "discipline" when he was Grayson's age that the first thing he did after being drafted by Chicago in the lottery was to go out and purchase a motorcycle that he had no knowledge of how to operate, thus had no business operating, and proceeded to effectively truncate his career. Now that was a mistake that demonstrated a much higher degree of "lack of discipline", in my opinion, than have the collective Grayson tripping incidents. And as for Seth—as others have adequately pointed out here, this is not the former coach who should be opining about "discipline," as his career at VaTech was characterized by teams who played a very physical, borderline dirty brand of basketball and he had a number of players who often stepped over the line to the dark side of sportsmanship, yet he never once publicly reprimanded, punished, or corrected the behavior of these individuals.
Secondly, the level of coverage this situation has received has been absolutely out of proportion to the nature of the offense. It was a technical foul. It was whistled as such. Any further disciplinary actions beyond the T in the flow of the game are the decision of the coaching staff and professionals who surround Grayson—our opinions and the opinions of sports media bloviators are completely irrelevant. This aside, there are far more significant stories occurring in the world of sports [cough, UNC revised NOA #2... cough, Joe Mixon breaking bones in a girl's face, yet not being charged, suspended, etc. despite the fact that his coach knew about the entire incident... etc.] that warrant more coverage than Grayson's tripping incident. The fact that the Grayson tripping incident preceded coverage of the carnage in Aleppo on network news the day after the event is an absolute embarrassment for said network news operations.



That said, Grayson's behavior is ridiculous. By tripping his opponents regardless of what level of frustration he's dealing with, he comes off as immature, childish, spoiled, and self-centered. As a parent, if my kid acted that way repeatedly, he'd definitely be receiving some discipline from the coach. And if the coach wouldn't be willing to discipline him, then I would. Which leads to...

I support K's "indefinite suspension" decision in this situation, and his decision to revoke his captaincy (that was one of the first punishments that went through my mind, actually—the trip demonstrated habitual poor behavior that is not what I would want in a leader on my team). This has been what we call a "teachable moment." It seems pretty clear to me that K and other adults around Grayson have likely had further conversations with him to establish behavioral expectations for both short and long term that he will need to meet in order to resume his role on the team. If he satisfactorily meets these expectations, he'll resume his role. If he doesn't, he won't. This is what they should be doing in order to teach Grayson lessons that he will need to learn in order to grow from this experience and successfully apply these lessons when he confronts similar frustrating situations later in life. I want to see Grayson back on the floor sometime this season because it will hopefully be an indication that he's learned from his mistake and is ready to move forward.



Now... Let's talk more about sporks and revised NOAs...

slower
01-01-2017, 03:38 PM
Personally, I don't really care about anyone's opinion of me or my views on Grayson's suspension or the media coverage of the whole series of events... So I'll be happy to share my views, for what they're worth...


The media coverage of this situation has been, to put it bluntly, reprehensible...

First of all [and I'm sure I'll get some flack for sharing this view about J-Will], I don't want to hear what guys like J-Will or Seth have to say about "discipline." We're talking about one guy who had such a firm grasp of "discipline" when he was Grayson's age that the first thing he did after being drafted by Chicago in the lottery was to go out and purchase a motorcycle that he had no knowledge of how to operate, thus had no business operating, and proceeded to effectively truncate his career. Now that was a mistake that demonstrated a much higher degree of "lack of discipline", in my opinion, than have the collective Grayson tripping incidents. And as for Seth—as others have adequately pointed out here, this is not the former coach who should be opining about "discipline," as his career at VaTech was characterized by teams who played a very physical, borderline dirty brand of basketball and he had a number of players who often stepped over the line to the dark side of sportsmanship, yet he never once publicly reprimanded, punished, or corrected the behavior of these individuals.
Secondly, the level of coverage this situation has received has been absolutely out of proportion to the nature of the offense. It was a technical foul. It was whistled as such. Any further disciplinary actions beyond the T in the flow of the game are the decision of the coaching staff and professionals who surround Grayson—our opinions and the opinions of sports media bloviators are completely irrelevant. This aside, there are far more significant stories occurring in the world of sports [cough, UNC revised NOA #2... cough, Joe Mixon breaking bones in a girl's face, yet not being charged, suspended, etc. despite the fact that his coach knew about the entire incident... etc.] that warrant more coverage than Grayson's tripping incident. The fact that the Grayson tripping incident preceded coverage of the carnage in Aleppo on network news the day after the event is an absolute embarrassment for said network news operations.



That said, Grayson's behavior is ridiculous. By tripping his opponents regardless of what level of frustration he's dealing with, he comes off as immature, childish, spoiled, and self-centered. As a parent, if my kid acted that way repeatedly, he'd definitely be receiving some discipline from the coach. And if the coach wouldn't be willing to discipline him, then I would. Which leads to...

I support K's "indefinite suspension" decision in this situation, and his decision to revoke his captaincy (that was one of the first punishments that went through my mind, actually—the trip demonstrated habitual poor behavior that is not what I would want in a leader on my team). This has been what we call a "teachable moment." It seems pretty clear to me that K and other adults around Grayson have likely had further conversations with him to establish behavioral expectations for both short and long term that he will need to meet in order to resume his role on the team. If he satisfactorily meets these expectations, he'll resume his role. If he doesn't, he won't. This is what they should be doing in order to teach Grayson lessons that he will need to learn in order to grow from this experience and successfully apply these lessons when he confronts similar frustrating situations later in life. I want to see Grayson back on the floor sometime this season because it will hopefully be an indication that he's learned from his mistake and is ready to move forward.



Now... Let's talk more about sporks and revised NOAs...

Well said. Thank you.

sagegrouse
01-01-2017, 03:41 PM
Personally, I don't really care about anyone's opinion of me or my views on Grayson's suspension or the media coverage of the whole series of events... So I'll be happy to share my views, for what they're worth...


The media coverage of this situation has been, to put it bluntly, reprehensible...
[LIST]
First of all [and I'm sure I'll get some flack for sharing this view about J-Will], I don't want to hear what guys like J-Will or Seth have to say about "discipline." We're talking about one guy who had such a firm grasp of "discipline" when he was Grayson's age that the first thing he did after being drafted by Chicago in the lottery was to go out and purchase a motorcycle that he had no knowledge of how to operate, thus had no business operating, and proceeded to effectively truncate his career. Now that was a mistake that demonstrated a much higher degree of "lack of discipline", in my opinion, than have the collective Grayson tripping incidents. And as for Seth—as others have adequately pointed out here, this is not the former coach who should be opining about "discipline," as his career at VaTech was characterized by teams who played a very physical, borderline dirty brand of basketball and he had a number of players who often stepped over the line to the dark side of sportsmanship, yet he never once publicly reprimanded, punished, or corrected the behavior of these individuals.



Now... Let's talk more about sporks and revised NOAs...

One correction about J-Will; he bought the bike AFTER his first season with the Bulls, not immediately after being drafted. I agree pretty much with your post: J-Will and Seth were likely egged on by the producers sensing a story during the doldrums of the basketball season, but a little more humility from flawed human beings (all of us, actually) would be a good thing.

Papa John
01-01-2017, 03:57 PM
One correction about J-Will; he bought the bike AFTER his first season with the Bulls, not immediately after being drafted. I agree pretty much with your post: J-Will and Seth were likely egged on by the producers sensing a story during the doldrums of the basketball season, but a little more humility from flawed human beings (all of us, actually) would be a good thing.

Time is like a river, and the fuller my glass gets the hazier my memory of details becomes... Thanks for the correction, Sage!

WVDUKEFAN
01-01-2017, 06:15 PM
Coach K has handled it fine. He knows what is best for the team and Allen. If he sits him for one game or 10, it's the right thing to do because he's the coach and closest to the situation.

Newton_14
01-01-2017, 07:41 PM
Really great and thoughtful post. I for one appreciate your words here.


There is so much frustration on this board right now for many different reasons. The most divisive topic seems to be Allen's actions/suspension and media coverage thereof.
I have rarely seen such allegations tossed back and forth between fans rooting for the same team. It seems that we've drawn out lines in the sand and decided that if you want Grayson back ASAP, you are blind to the grave mistakes he has made and need to trust K's process and have a "win at all costs" mindset. And, if you think Allen's punishment is warranted, that you are drinking the ESPN kool-aid, don't appreciate Grayson's competitive spirit, and aren't a real supporter of Duke sports.

Folks, we are all Duke fans here. We all want the best for our team and for Grayson as a player and as a human being. Casting accusations at one another about what "true Duke fans" do or don't think about the situation takes away from the more important issue that we are ALL Duke fans, and the team is going to need to dig deep to overcome this distraction.

This is just my two cents. Feel free to flame away at me. I would just rather see us talk about the more relevant parts of this team's growth - Luke's year, Matt's shot, Harry's progress, etc.

53n206
01-01-2017, 07:50 PM
Coach K has handled it fine. He knows what is best for the team and Allen. If he sits him for one game or 10, it's the right thing to do because he's the coach and closest to the situation.

Are we really questioning Coach K's handling of the team? So far he has done a "passable" job at Duke. Allen seems to be a great young man, but his temper is a major problem. If this susension and loss of captaincy helps him than he is fortunate indeed.

Furniture
01-01-2017, 08:02 PM
Excellent post. One thing that puzzled me though was why after K said he didn't want to talk about Grayson in yesterday's presser and he then went on to say a couple of things one being that he is not a captain anymore. I wonder why that wasn't informed after the Elon game when the suspension was announced?
Unless it's some kind of enough punishment strategy to bring him back? My emotional intelligence tells me that Grayson is back for Wednesday's game...

duketaylor
01-01-2017, 08:15 PM
I really don't worry about anybody else's opines on this matter. I read them and consider them but don't obsess on that. You and I are familiar on another off-topic subject. I've stated my thoughts about Grayson and I have a unique position on the situation, I think. Maybe others will disagree, and that's fine. I don't really care.

I think he'll be back soon and hope he's been counseled. To the extent that he understands that he cannot trip guys on the court again. Not just because he plays for Duke, but because it's wrong.

Our recent loss is, to me, insignificant, in the long run, and not Grayson related. It's more chemistry related and youth related. Not concerned about that at all. Let VT enjoy said loss. We played crappily and we need to improve. We will.

Last time Duke, unc and UVa all lost on same day?

DukeDevilDeb
01-01-2017, 08:18 PM
Excellent post. One thing that puzzled me though was why after K said he didn't want to talk about Grayson in yesterday's presser and he then went on to say a couple of things one being that he is not a captain anymore. I wonder why that wasn't informed after the Elon game when the suspension was announced?
Unless it's some kind of enough punishment strategy to bring him back? My emotional intelligence tells me that Grayson is back for Wednesday's game...

The original post here is brilliant. As I watched Jason and Seth go off (and feed off each other's psychosis), I shook my head and said exactly the same thing you did: This is worse than a lottery pick buying a motorcycle, having no motorcycle license and knowing NOTHING about riding it, getting on it and crashing into the end of his career. Jason's actions there will stand as my vote for all-time immature behavior from a former Duke player. His diatribe during the Elon game may be #2.

But Coach K must not put Grayson on the floor on Wednesday or even after that on Saturday. I believe he must be suspended one game for each incident. I don't know why Grayson did this... after all, as one of the commentators said, tripping isn't a part of basketball as it might be a part of soccer. But he clearly did NOT get the message after last year. His emotional "I did something dumb and it won't ever happen again" speech at the beginning of this season was believable... until it happened again. Now he's gone way beyond the pale, and I think he needs to have time to watch and think about what he's done to the team as well as to himself.

Taking his captaincy away from him was a good idea by Coach K. You can't be a leader if you can't control yourself. I've been watching and loving Duke basketball for over 30 years, but Grayson's behavior is NOT the Duke way. Don't get me wrong... I want him back on the floor... but hopefully this time, he really won't do it again. It was behavior worthy of a thug... and I don't really think he IS a thug. He can use some help from outside the basketball program, and I hope Coach K has seen that he has gotten that.

I also hope we play better against Georgia Tech than we did against Virginia Tech! After all, they upset the Tar Heels, and we really don't want to open ACC play 0-2.

Go Duke!

Troublemaker
01-01-2017, 08:55 PM
I believe he must be suspended one game for each incident.

I think that is no less (or more) arbitrary than any other length. If it happens to be two games, for example, and Grayson has fulfilled whatever is asked of him in two games, then so be it. Duke would've already gone above and beyond the consequences for similar incidents at other programs.

(Incidentally, I have heard a rumor that your standard is one of the possibilities being considered. If that's the case, so be it as well.)

Furniture
01-01-2017, 09:03 PM
The original post here is brilliant. As I watched Jason and Seth go off (and feed off each other's psychosis), I shook my head and said exactly the same thing you did: This is worse than a lottery pick buying a motorcycle, having no motorcycle license and knowing NOTHING about riding it, getting on it and crashing into the end of his career. Jason's actions there will stand as my vote for all-time immature behavior from a former Duke player. His diatribe during the Elon game may be #2.

But Coach K must not put Grayson on the floor on Wednesday or even after that on Saturday. I believe he must be suspended one game for each incident. I don't know why Grayson did this... after all, as one of the commentators said, tripping isn't a part of basketball as it might be a part of soccer. But he clearly did NOT get the message after last year. His emotional "I did something dumb and it won't ever happen again" speech at the beginning of this season was believable... until it happened again. Now he's gone way beyond the pale, and I think he needs to have time to watch and think about what he's done to the team as well as to himself.

Taking his captaincy away from him was a good idea by Coach K. You can't be a leader if you can't control yourself. I've been watching and loving Duke basketball for over 30 years, but Grayson's behavior is NOT the Duke way. Don't get me wrong... I want him back on the floor... but hopefully this time, he really won't do it again. It was behavior worthy of a thug... and I don't really think he IS a thug. He can use some help from outside the basketball program, and I hope Coach K has seen that he has gotten that.

I also hope we play better against Georgia Tech than we did against Virginia Tech! After all, they upset the Tar Heels, and we really don't want to open ACC play 0-2.

Go Duke!

One game per incident is also a good hunch! But I still believe the captaincy thing could have changed things up a bit!

indy1duke
01-01-2017, 10:41 PM
Papa John's thoughtful comment was spot on, especially related to Tweedledum and Tweedledee (Jayson and Seth). The irony of their ranting about Grayson is rich indeed.

As for opinions on Grayson's punishment be sure to post your opinions after Coach K consults with you on what he should do. As for me, Coach K has my proxy. He is GOAT and I am counting on him to make the right decision.

Furniture
01-01-2017, 10:46 PM
Papa John's thoughtful comment was spot on, especially related to Tweedledum and Tweedledee (Jayson and Seth). The irony of their ranting about Grayson is rich indeed.

As for opinions on Grayson's punishment be sure to post your opinions after Coach K consults with you on what he should do. As for me, Coach K has my proxy. He is GOAT and I am counting on him to make the right decision.

Of course! That's the predictable and correct response. I am just trying out my inner magician to read his mind.

Tom B.
01-02-2017, 01:14 AM
Personally, I don't really care about anyone's opinion of me or my views on Grayson's suspension or the media coverage of the whole series of events... So I'll be happy to share my views, for what they're worth...


The media coverage of this situation has been, to put it bluntly, reprehensible...

First of all [and I'm sure I'll get some flack for sharing this view about J-Will], I don't want to hear what guys like J-Will or Seth have to say about "discipline." We're talking about one guy who had such a firm grasp of "discipline" when he was Grayson's age that the first thing he did after being drafted by Chicago in the lottery was to go out and purchase a motorcycle that he had no knowledge of how to operate, thus had no business operating, and proceeded to effectively truncate his career. Now that was a mistake that demonstrated a much higher degree of "lack of discipline", in my opinion, than have the collective Grayson tripping incidents. And as for Seth—as others have adequately pointed out here, this is not the former coach who should be opining about "discipline," as his career at VaTech was characterized by teams who played a very physical, borderline dirty brand of basketball and he had a number of players who often stepped over the line to the dark side of sportsmanship, yet he never once publicly reprimanded, punished, or corrected the behavior of these individuals.
Secondly, the level of coverage this situation has received has been absolutely out of proportion to the nature of the offense. It was a technical foul. It was whistled as such. Any further disciplinary actions beyond the T in the flow of the game are the decision of the coaching staff and professionals who surround Grayson—our opinions and the opinions of sports media bloviators are completely irrelevant. This aside, there are far more significant stories occurring in the world of sports [cough, UNC revised NOA #2... cough, Joe Mixon breaking bones in a girl's face, yet not being charged, suspended, etc. despite the fact that his coach knew about the entire incident... etc.] that warrant more coverage than Grayson's tripping incident. The fact that the Grayson tripping incident preceded coverage of the carnage in Aleppo on network news the day after the event is an absolute embarrassment for said network news operations.



That said, Grayson's behavior is ridiculous. By tripping his opponents regardless of what level of frustration he's dealing with, he comes off as immature, childish, spoiled, and self-centered. As a parent, if my kid acted that way repeatedly, he'd definitely be receiving some discipline from the coach. And if the coach wouldn't be willing to discipline him, then I would. Which leads to...

I support K's "indefinite suspension" decision in this situation, and his decision to revoke his captaincy (that was one of the first punishments that went through my mind, actually—the trip demonstrated habitual poor behavior that is not what I would want in a leader on my team). This has been what we call a "teachable moment." It seems pretty clear to me that K and other adults around Grayson have likely had further conversations with him to establish behavioral expectations for both short and long term that he will need to meet in order to resume his role on the team. If he satisfactorily meets these expectations, he'll resume his role. If he doesn't, he won't. This is what they should be doing in order to teach Grayson lessons that he will need to learn in order to grow from this experience and successfully apply these lessons when he confronts similar frustrating situations later in life. I want to see Grayson back on the floor sometime this season because it will hopefully be an indication that he's learned from his mistake and is ready to move forward.



Now... Let's talk more about sporks and revised NOAs...

Bravo, Papa John. Three for three. Sporks on all counts.

And you'll get no flack from me regarding your statements about J-Will. I'll always love him for what he did at Duke as a player, and he generally represented the school well while he was there. But as a commentator, he's mediocre at best (and I've thought that for a while, since well before Graysongate).

Jay's "Enough!" tweet after the Santa Ana trip was silly. You'd think a guy who's struggled so publicly with his own demons might have a little empathy upon seeing Grayson's reaction and think, "OK, this looks like a guy who's going through some s--t right now. I'm gonna have to say something, but maybe firing off a hot-take tweet demanding a pound of his flesh isn't the most constructive response."

Instead, he went for the quick and dramatic clickbait, which set the tone for and basically legitimized the overwrought pile-on that followed. Disappointing.

Devilwin
01-02-2017, 05:43 AM
Whatever K decides to do as to the length of the suspension, is fine by me. I would like to see him come back against Georgia Tech because I believe the young man's humiliation and the loss to VA Tech has devastated him to a degree we can only imagine. I am fairly certain he takes responsibility for the loss, not only because of the loss of his physical contributions, but because of the distraction that had to have occurred in the locker room, affecting his teammates.
I am sick of all the media coverage about this. Grayson Allen is no evil person, but his actions were those of a petulant child, and it cost us.
This season began with such high hopes, then came the odd circumstance of foot injuries, Grayson's turf toe, now this. It's all just too much.
I have faith in K and respect what he decides, I just hope he let's the kid come back soon, and this circus will end at last..

FadedTackyShirt
01-02-2017, 08:34 AM
Was surprised that K named Grayson a 2017 Captain after the second incident last season. Shocked that it happened a third time. Personally thought Grayson should have been suspended for a game after the second incident last season.

The timing of the suspension is tricky. Not as concerned about the punitive part, much more concerned about changing behavior. Grayson's going to be baited and taunted every game from now on and if he snaps again, K may have to dismiss him from the program.

Three games seems reasonable, but road games @ FSU and Lville may be the toughest segment of the regular season. A shakedown home game vs BC would help since reinserting Grayson on the road vs very tough matchups in hostile environments would be less than ideal.

Sadly the time is getting short for K and he still has a good chance to hang a banner in 2017. It's both personal and professional for Grayson at this point. He's never been a surefire lottery pick and another meltdown would push him out of the first round. Very good college player, but average athleticism for an NBA SG and being labeled a distraction wouldn't be helpful.

K is the GOAT, but absolute perfection isn't the standard for greatness. He's handled Grayson's situation OK so far, but it isn't over yet.

devil84
01-02-2017, 09:33 AM
But Coach K must not put Grayson on the floor on Wednesday or even after that on Saturday. I believe he must be suspended one game for each incident. I don't know why Grayson did this... after all, as one of the commentators said, tripping isn't a part of basketball as it might be a part of soccer. But he clearly did NOT get the message after last year. His emotional "I did something dumb and it won't ever happen again" speech at the beginning of this season was believable... until it happened again. Now he's gone way beyond the pale, and I think he needs to have time to watch and think about what he's done to the team as well as to himself.

I think that is no less (or more) arbitrary than any other length. If it happens to be two games, for example, and Grayson has fulfilled whatever is asked of him in two games, then so be it. Duke would've already gone above and beyond the consequences for similar incidents at other programs.

(Incidentally, I have heard a rumor that your standard is one of the possibilities being considered. If that's the case, so be it as well.)

One game per incident is also a good hunch! But I still believe the captaincy thing could have changed things up a bit!

One thing I worry about with the length of the suspension is that it prolongs the media circus. As as been stated repeatedly, Grayson seems to be an otherwise great kid with an inability to control his frustration. He's on the record for saying he really doesn't want to be the next hated Blue Devil. If trash talk,a perceived inability to get the calls, or whatever it is during the game is frustrating him, what does all the media frothing do? I think the media circus already has been a substantial punishment, and I don't think it's a very helpful punishment for a young man who has noted he doesn't want to be hated and also has issues with frustration. It could even be counterproductive.

In that vein, a three-game suspension puts his return at FSU. The VT fans seemed to chant "We want Grayson" or "Graaaay-soooon" at nearly every free throw. This may happen everywhere for the rest of the season, regardless, but I have to think that if the media stops covering Grayson non-stop, the opposing fans might toss in a cheer or two for their own team. Oh, to be sure, he will be taunted at the free throw line for the rest of the year, and booed vociferously whenever practical, so this punishment will continue through the end of the season. As long as Grayson is suspended, the media will continue their fomenting. As soon as he plays, the end of the torture (outside of the in-game broadcast) may be in sight, after the requisite, "Was this punishment enough?" segments. And then, perhaps, opponents will support their own team instead of focusing on Grayson.

So, a three game suspension puts his return AT FSU. Four games puts him AT Louisville. Two games or five games puts his return in the confines of Cameron Indoor. Given that Grayson's issues encompass emotional issues, I can't help but think that Coach K will take this into consideration and return Grayson to the court when appropriate. Would it be better for a two game suspension so he can come back to a supportive environment, or does he return in a demonstrated hostile environment? Depending on the nuances of the situation, either could be appropriate. I'll leave that up to Coach K and staff to determine, though I'm all for ending the media coverage ASAP. And that includes our own discussions of Grayson. As a parent and someone that spent many years mentoring teens and young adults, I've seen a couple of kids like Grayson who have had a similar intensity->frustration->outburst situation who matured out of it by age 23, and thankfully did this without the national media's coverage (which is why I think it's counterproductive). I think that the OP has a great idea and focus on the development on the rest of the team. The team just hit the lowest point of the season, laying a huge egg at VT. This season could be a really fun ride from here on out. Let's not miss it because of focusing on one player, who probably doesn't need the attention.

Indoor66
01-02-2017, 09:49 AM
IMO, we have long reached the point of meaningless gum flapping on this subject. Getting into psycho analysis, moral relativism and other esoteric mumbo jumbo adds nothing to the discussion or issue. It is now in three hands: Coach K, Grayson and God. Between that group, I think a pretty good resolution will be reached.

DukeDevilDeb
01-02-2017, 11:09 AM
One thing I worry about with the length of the suspension is that it prolongs the media circus. As as been stated repeatedly, Grayson seems to be an otherwise great kid with an inability to control his frustration. He's on the record for saying he really doesn't want to be the next hated Blue Devil. If trash talk,a perceived inability to get the calls, or whatever it is during the game is frustrating him, what does all the media frothing do? I think the media circus already has been a substantial punishment, and I don't think it's a very helpful punishment for a young man who has noted he doesn't want to be hated and also has issues with frustration. It could even be counterproductive.

In that vein, a three-game suspension puts his return at FSU. The VT fans seemed to chant "We want Grayson" or "Graaaay-soooon" at nearly every free throw. This may happen everywhere for the rest of the season, regardless, but I have to think that if the media stops covering Grayson non-stop, the opposing fans might toss in a cheer or two for their own team. Oh, to be sure, he will be taunted at the free throw line for the rest of the year, and booed vociferously whenever practical, so this punishment will continue through the end of the season. As long as Grayson is suspended, the media will continue their fomenting. As soon as he plays, the end of the torture (outside of the in-game broadcast) may be in sight, after the requisite, "Was this punishment enough?" segments. And then, perhaps, opponents will support their own team instead of focusing on Grayson.

So, a three game suspension puts his return AT FSU. Four games puts him AT Louisville. Two games or five games puts his return in the confines of Cameron Indoor. Given that Grayson's issues encompass emotional issues, I can't help but think that Coach K will take this into consideration and return Grayson to the court when appropriate. Would it be better for a two game suspension so he can come back to a supportive environment, or does he return in a demonstrated hostile environment? Depending on the nuances of the situation, either could be appropriate. I'll leave that up to Coach K and staff to determine, though I'm all for ending the media coverage ASAP. And that includes our own discussions of Grayson. As a parent and someone that spent many years mentoring teens and young adults, I've seen a couple of kids like Grayson who have had a similar intensity->frustration->outburst situation who matured out of it by age 23, and thankfully did this without the national media's coverage (which is why I think it's counterproductive). I think that the OP has a great idea and focus on the development on the rest of the team. The team just hit the lowest point of the season, laying a huge egg at VT. This season could be a really fun ride from here on out. Let's not miss it because of focusing on one player, who probably doesn't need the attention.

... with the majority of what you say here. We are going to hear fans at all venues (except Cameron, I hope!) jeering and sneering about Grayson because that's what fans do. We do the same thing when opposing players show their foibles. In the end, Grayson is going to have to block out that noise and concentrate on the game at hand and controlling himself.

What I do not think is smart is to bring him back because the team needs him. You think the media circus has been crazy to this point? I cannot even imagine what they would say if Grayson is in uniform on Wednesday night! Coach K (who I absolutely believe is the GOAT) will handle this with insight and intelligence. He will want to silence the critics while still sending a potent message to Grayson about where the lines are now drawn. He can do that; I am certain.

Another tangentially related question: When Jason Williams was hospitalized after his motorcycle meltdown, Coach K took his own St. Christopher's medal from around his neck and put it around Jason's. When Jason protested that he couldn't take K's medal, the coach told him he could return it when he was back on an NBA court. That never really happened. I wonder where that medal is right now. If Jason still has it, he needs to think about what it means/meant. Compassion and faith help people recover from all kinds of problems, and Coach is a master at providing both.

Go Duke!

Furniture
01-02-2017, 11:10 AM
One thing I worry about with the length of the suspension is that it prolongs the media circus. As as been stated repeatedly, Grayson seems to be an otherwise great kid with an inability to control his frustration. He's on the record for saying he really doesn't want to be the next hated Blue Devil. If trash talk,a perceived inability to get the calls, or whatever it is during the game is frustrating him, what does all the media frothing do? I think the media circus already has been a substantial punishment, and I don't think it's a very helpful punishment for a young man who has noted he doesn't want to be hated and also has issues with frustration. It could even be counterproductive.

In that vein, a three-game suspension puts his return at FSU. The VT fans seemed to chant "We want Grayson" or "Graaaay-soooon" at nearly every free throw. This may happen everywhere for the rest of the season, regardless, but I have to think that if the media stops covering Grayson non-stop, the opposing fans might toss in a cheer or two for their own team. Oh, to be sure, he will be taunted at the free throw line for the rest of the year, and booed vociferously whenever practical, so this punishment will continue through the end of the season. As long as Grayson is suspended, the media will continue their fomenting. As soon as he plays, the end of the torture (outside of the in-game broadcast) may be in sight, after the requisite, "Was this punishment enough?" segments. And then, perhaps, opponents will support their own team instead of focusing on Grayson.

So, a three game suspension puts his return AT FSU. Four games puts him AT Louisville. Two games or five games puts his return in the confines of Cameron Indoor. Given that Grayson's issues encompass emotional issues, I can't help but think that Coach K will take this into consideration and return Grayson to the court when appropriate. Would it be better for a two game suspension so he can come back to a supportive environment, or does he return in a demonstrated hostile environment? Depending on the nuances of the situation, either could be appropriate. I'll leave that up to Coach K and staff to determine, though I'm all for ending the media coverage ASAP. And that includes our own discussions of Grayson. As a parent and someone that spent many years mentoring teens and young adults, I've seen a couple of kids like Grayson who have had a similar intensity->frustration->outburst situation who matured out of it by age 23, and thankfully did this without the national media's coverage (which is why I think it's counterproductive). I think that the OP has a great idea and focus on the development on the rest of the team. The team just hit the lowest point of the season, laying a huge egg at VT. This season could be a really fun ride from here on out. Let's not miss it because of focusing on one player, who probably doesn't need the attention.

All good points. I previously stated that I think GA would be back on Wednesday. I also think he comes off the bench. If not I am definitely calling K to tell him that his first game should be at Cameron for all the reasons you state. Since K gave me a personally signed autographed photo of himself for Christmas I can do that. We are best mates!

ChrisP
01-02-2017, 12:57 PM
I think there's almost ZERO % chance Grayson's return will be anywhere other than on Coach K court. When that will be is anyone's guess, but I simply cannot imagine him being thrown to the wolves at an away game.

jv001
01-02-2017, 01:14 PM
I think there's almost ZERO % chance Grayson's return will be anywhere other than on Coach K court. When that will be is anyone's guess, but I simply cannot imagine him being thrown to the wolves at an away game.

I agree that it's best that Grayson returns in Cameron. It's not going to make a difference when Grayson returns, because he's going to get the worst of it all season anyway but I would like to see him get his feet wet at home before going to the lions den. I'm hoping that Coach K brings him back Wednesday in his last coaching job for at least a month. The idiots are already making nasty remarks about Coach K and his back operation. So let the wolves start Wednesday night. We live in a society that cares mostly for themselves and not their neighbors and brethren. I'm glad that most of the posters on DBR are not like that. If we were like that, I would find something else to do in my spare time. GoDuke!

Furniture
01-02-2017, 01:41 PM
So does Coach K or coach C bring Grayson back?

Troublemaker
01-02-2017, 01:48 PM
So does Coach K or coach C bring Grayson back?

If Grayson has accomplished whatever he needs to accomplish, I could see Coach K announcing in Wednesday's postgame that he'll be back going forward. That accomplishes two things:
(1) If Grayson has another incident (let's hope not!), it'll be because Coach K "brought him back too soon" or whatever instead of Coach Capel.
(2) It gives Coach Capel a full arsenal to work with as he begins his stint.

Furniture
01-02-2017, 03:00 PM
If Grayson has accomplished whatever he needs to accomplish, I could see Coach K announcing in Wednesday's postgame that he'll be back going forward. That accomplishes two things:
(1) If Grayson has another incident (let's hope not!), it'll be because Coach K "brought him back too soon" or whatever instead of Coach Capel.
(2) It gives Coach Capel a full arsenal to work with as he begins his stint.

Whenever Grayson comes back do you really think that we will know beforehand? If he is to play Wednesday, which I personally think there is a bigger chance now, I think we see him sometime during the game. Unannounced.

Troublemaker
01-02-2017, 04:18 PM
Whenever Grayson comes back do you really think that we will know beforehand? If he is to play Wednesday, which I personally think there is a bigger chance now, I think we see him sometime during the game. Unannounced.

It's not an injury situation, so I think it'll be announced.

OldPhiKap
01-02-2017, 04:27 PM
It's not an injury situation, so I think it'll be announced.

I would guess not. If I had to guess, he plays against GT but does not start. Assuming, of course, that he has met whatever markers K has laid down.

Furniture
01-02-2017, 04:32 PM
It's not an injury situation, so I think it'll be announced.

You are probably correct. The good thing for Grayson for when he does come back and assuming it's before K does the narrative has changed. It will be all about K or the lack of him. Well not all obviously but somewhat to significantly changed.

LasVegas
01-02-2017, 05:02 PM
My hope for Grayson is that he has been able to sit and think about what this team needs from him. We are lacking a player who is the straw that stirs the drink. I think Grayson can thrive in that role. His fire/passion alone gets him a step there.

sagegrouse
01-03-2017, 08:57 AM
DeCock, that is, not Kennard. In today's N&O article on Coach K's absence and Capel's challenge, he mentioned one challenge as Grayson "Allen’s loose-limbed recidivism." Wow! I wish I had written that!

Furniture
01-04-2017, 07:20 PM
Unless it's some kind of enough punishment strategy to bring him back? My emotional intelligence tells me that Grayson is back for Wednesday's game...

I knew it..

Furniture
01-04-2017, 07:22 PM
All good points. I previously stated that I think GA would be back on Wednesday. I also think he comes off the bench. If not I am definitely calling K to tell him that his first game should be at Cameron for all the reasons you state. Since K gave me a personally signed autographed photo of himself for Christmas I can do that. We are best mates!

Got the coming off the bench right.

Eakane
01-04-2017, 07:46 PM
Coach K has handled it fine. He knows what is best for the team and Allen. If he sits him for one game or 10, it's the right thing to do because he's the coach and closest to the situation.

"I'm saying that when the president does it it's not illegal." Former POTUS and Duke law alum, R. Nixon.

Sorry, the Coach does not get a pass just because he's the coach and thus incapable of making a poor decision.

killerleft
01-04-2017, 10:20 PM
"I'm saying that when the president does it it's not illegal." Former POTUS and Duke law alum, R. Nixon.

Sorry, the Coach does not get a pass just because he's the coach and thus incapable of making a poor decision.

So, you know what went on the last 14 days, and can make an informed decision? I'm going with Coach K. He's not a crook.

Dukehky
01-04-2017, 10:59 PM
"I'm saying that when the president does it it's not illegal." Former POTUS and Duke law alum, R. Nixon.

Sorry, the Coach does not get a pass just because he's the coach and thus incapable of making a poor decision.

This is a bad take on the situation. Not well thought out, not clever, not on point.

This implies that what he did was a poor decision. Dude tripped someone and threw a temper tantrum, I'd say 1 game is more than enough.

jv001
01-04-2017, 11:00 PM
So, you know what went on the last 14 days, and can make an informed decision? I'm going with Coach K. He's not a crook.

All politicians are crooks. Just like the uncheats. GoDuke!

wavedukefan70s
01-04-2017, 11:09 PM
Why is jwill so set on three game suspension and the acc stepping in?
He was suspended its done.i dont get what hes trying to accomplish.

Dukehky
01-04-2017, 11:10 PM
Why is jwill so set on three game suspension and the acc stepping in?
He was suspended its done.i dont get what hes trying to accomplish.


Trying to get that pay raise son!!!

devildeac
01-04-2017, 11:13 PM
Why is jwill so set on three game suspension and the acc stepping in?
He was suspended its done.i dont get what hes trying to accomplish.

He's an espn employee. Pretty sad.

jv001
01-04-2017, 11:14 PM
Why is jwill so set on three game suspension and the acc stepping in?
He was suspended its done.i dont get what hes trying to accomplish.

Jay is "brown noseing" his boss. He heard the other Jay say that everyone was entitled to their opinion on how many games Grayson was suspended. Like Ima said, it doesn't matter. Duke fans should just ignore the media idiots. Most of them are haters anyway. Not saying both Jays are but they do work for one. GoDuke!

jipops
01-04-2017, 11:18 PM
I'm convinced K brought Grayson back tonight because he is going to be out for awhile and wants to have the roster in as cohesive state as possible for Jeff.

And regarding JWill's insistence on a 3 game suspension...is he still upset that Chris Paul got one game for punching Hodge in the jewels? I doubt it. Perspective.

OldPhiKap
01-04-2017, 11:18 PM
I really wish we would drop this whole "ESPN hates Duke" thing. ESPN has done more to spread our brand nationally and internationally that anyone outside of Durham. I know I am in the minority, but it just sounds like twerping to me.

JWill wore the uniform, and thinks something different than I do. He is entitled to an opinion. It doesn't always have to be the same as mine.

Anyway, let the bashing continue unabated.

Indoor66
01-05-2017, 11:11 AM
FORGIVENESS is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heal that has crushed it
- Mark Twain

Maybe it is time to smell eau de violette!

flyingdutchdevil
01-05-2017, 11:23 AM
I really wish we would drop this whole "ESPN hates Duke" thing. ESPN has done more to spread our brand nationally and internationally that anyone outside of Durham. I know I am in the minority, but it just sounds like twerping to me.

JWill wore the uniform, and thinks something different than I do. He is entitled to an opinion. It doesn't always have to be the same as mine.

Anyway, let the bashing continue unabated.

Dude. You and me both.

I love ESPN. Without them, our brand wouldn't be the same. They are the main reason why 95% of our games are televised. Yes, it sometimes is a pain in the butt to hear them talk about Duke (negative or positive), but I'll take negative/positive talk and media exposure over no talk and no exposure.

atoomer0881
01-05-2017, 11:46 AM
I really wish we would drop this whole "ESPN hates Duke" thing. ESPN has done more to spread our brand nationally and internationally that anyone outside of Durham. I know I am in the minority, but it just sounds like twerping to me.

JWill wore the uniform, and thinks something different than I do. He is entitled to an opinion. It doesn't always have to be the same as mine.

Anyway, let the bashing continue unabated.


Dude. You and me both.

I love ESPN. Without them, our brand wouldn't be the same. They are the main reason why 95% of our games are televised. Yes, it sometimes is a pain in the butt to hear them talk about Duke (negative or positive), but I'll take negative/positive talk and media exposure over no talk and no exposure.

Tend to agree with both of you. While some commentators definitely irk me, I'd rather mute the TV and watch my team play than not get to watch my team at all. I always think what if I was brought up a fan of some other top tier program -- I'd only get to watch probably half the amount of games I get to watch Duke play. I really don't think ESPN hates Duke. I think ESPN understands that when it comes to Duke, it's black and white. You either love them or hate them. There is no gray area. So they're going to broadcast them, or talk about them, or write about them as often as possible to drive up viewership and readers. And if the result of that is that some people say negative things about Duke but I get to see 95% of their games (and stream the other 5% on WatchESPN), then I am all for it!

vfefrenzy
01-05-2017, 11:51 AM
The only reason ESPN gives a flying F about Duke's brand is because Duke's brand was already valuable. Duke draws more eyeballs than any other team in the country, so ESPN puts them on more. They also take more cheap shots at Duke than other schools because they hate Duke like most of the country hates Duke. Plus, they suck at the one job they need to be good at: televising sports. How many times do they miss action on the court (or field) because they're too busy with their graphics or off-court nonsense to simply show the game? How many times are you left wondering what call was just made because the announcers are pontificating out of their rectums instead of calling the games? How many of their people would you voluntarily listen to if you had other audio options during a game? I look forward to their inevitable bankruptcy.

bluedev_92
01-05-2017, 12:02 PM
This was posted at the top of the Bleacher Report (Duke BB page):

Brian Snow
@BSnowScout

For the life of me I still can't understand why it was SO IMPORTANT to people how long Grayson Allen was suspended for?


Good Question...

Tom B.
01-05-2017, 12:14 PM
I really wish we would drop this whole "ESPN hates Duke" thing. ESPN has done more to spread our brand nationally and internationally that anyone outside of Durham. I know I am in the minority, but it just sounds like twerping to me.

Speaking only for myself here, but I neither love nor hate ESPN. I'm just realistic about what they are. They're an entertainment enterprise, first and foremost -- not journalistic one.

Putting Duke on TV a lot is good entertainment.

Hot takes and overwrought hyperventilating when Duke struggles, or a Duke player does something stupid, embarrassing, or cringeworthy, is also good entertainment.

It's what they do. I think the sooner folks understand and accept this about ESPN, the less sleep they'll lose over it.

Lots of people among and surrounding our future opponents will now spend copious amounts of time and energy dissecting and working themselves into a lather over Allen's reinstatement and who gets credit for wins and losses during K's absence, and ESPN (and others in the sports infotainment industry) will be happy to provide fuel for the fire. I say, fine. Every minute and ounce of energy an opponent spends winding themselves up over Allen, K's record, or some other nonsense is a minute and an ounce wasted on something other than figuring out how to beat us. If it gets us inside the heads of our opponents to the point that they lose focus on what's important, I'm OK with that.

The Gordog
01-05-2017, 12:16 PM
The only reason ESPN gives a flying F about Duke's brand is because Duke's brand was already valuable. Duke draws more eyeballs than any other team in the country, so ESPN puts them on more. They also take more cheap shots at Duke than other schools because they hate Duke like most of the country hates Duke. Plus, they suck at the one job they need to be good at: televising sports. How many times do they miss action on the court (or field) because they're too busy with their graphics or off-court nonsense to simply show the game? How many times are you left wondering what call was just made because the announcers are pontificating out of their rectums instead of calling the games? How many of their people would you voluntarily listen to if you had other audio options during a game? I look forward to their inevitable bankruptcy.

Agree. Just not with the idea that most of the country hates Duke. I believe Duke is actually liked by a lot of casual fans.

sagegrouse
01-05-2017, 12:21 PM
Tend to agree with both of you. While some commentators definitely irk me, I'd rather mute the TV and watch my team play than not get to watch my team at all. I always think what if I was brought up a fan of some other top tier program -- I'd only get to watch probably half the amount of games I get to watch Duke play. I really don't think ESPN hates Duke. I think ESPN understands that when it comes to Duke, it's black and white. You either love them or hate them. There is no gray area. So they're going to broadcast them, or talk about them, or write about them as often as possible to drive up viewership and readers. And if the result of that is that some people say negative things about Duke but I get to see 95% of their games (and stream the other 5% on WatchESPN), then I am all for it!

I have no systemic problems with ESPN's or the media's coverage or commentary about Duke, given several considerations:

Duke is the best-known, best-liked and most hated college hoops program. Commentary comes with the territory. And basically, all publicity is good. Moreover, it's easy and clear to say, "I hate Duke," while if one says, "I hate Kentucky," it is a slurring mouthful of syllables of uncertain meaning. [Darn, that's a nice phrase. Not quite as good as Luke DeCock's description of "Allen's loose-limbed recidivism," but pretty good for an amateur.]
Grayson's strange, strange incident was bound to attract attention -- the best-known college player on the best-known team just before a holiday hiatus of basketball stories. The mindless commentary was really annoying -- Suspend or not? For how long? -- given that every person on camera and behind a microphone offered an opinion. How many of those guys mentioned that Grayson was an Academic All-American? This also comes with the territory.
Announcers seem to be pulling for Duke's opponents? Yep. Happens to all favorites -- the announcers are afraid of a blow-out and a loss of viewers and relish an upset. Let's hope there's not a time when we are viewed as the perpetual underdog in hoops.
The ESPN guys, especially Bilas, seem to be fully supportive of the cheaters in their battle against the NCAA. Yes, further than I would go, but let's see what the commentators say after UNC gets hammered. I think it will be a different tune.
There's an unfair bias in the North Carolina media against Duke and in favor of Carolina? Yep. Let's see... Duke is one-half the size of UNC. Twelve percent of Duke undergrads are from North Carolina; 90 percent of UNC's are in-state. Similar ratio among the alums, I assume. Which school would you expect to get the most coverage?

Jeffrey
01-05-2017, 12:33 PM
I really wish we would drop this whole "ESPN hates Duke" thing. ESPN has done more to spread our brand nationally and internationally that anyone outside of Durham. I know I am in the minority, but it just sounds like twerping to me.

JWill wore the uniform, and thinks something different than I do. He is entitled to an opinion. It doesn't always have to be the same as mine.

Anyway, let the bashing continue unabated.

As usual, I agree with you.

Americans love to bash the media and most will not agree with you. However, those who realize you are right and capitalize upon it, may get better recruits, sell more products, or even become the next POTUS. It's an extremely powerful opportunity for a great leader like Coach K.

ramdevil
01-05-2017, 12:38 PM
I was listening to the Dan Le Batard/Stugotz show this morning. They had a very interesting insight about ESPN in general. They pointed out that ESPN is making a ton of money because millions of people have to pay for the channel yet do not watch it (i.e., it's cable!). Dan said that all (including him) of the commentators were pretty much useless and inconsequential to the bottom line. He also called out the endless, pointless, soul-deadening chatter about Grayson specifically (using that chatter to justify his own particular schtick).

RE: Jay Williams - maybe he sees something of himself in Grayson? Just sayin'.

-ramdevil

unclsam1
01-05-2017, 12:45 PM
As soon as I knew Grayson was playing yesterday, I hit the mute button for the entire game. Just watched and didn't have to endure any of the predictable commentary. Could be a habit forming way to enjoy our games.

davekay1971
01-05-2017, 12:46 PM
Why I am delighted with the decision to bring Grayson back now:

1) I trust K's judgment on managing people. He's been doing things right at Duke for 35 years. He's managed hundreds of young men who are massively talented and hypercompetitive, young men with all kinds of voices in their ears from parents to friends to other coaches, young men who live in a bright spotlight, and he's done it amazingly well. If he thinks Grayson has learned what he needs to learn to avoid any more in-game tripping (or similar dangerous cheap shots), then I'll go with that, no question. K knows these young men, this particular young man, and how to handle this kind of thing better than me, or J Will, or any of the "please click my link" blowhards on the blogosphere.

2) I believe in true repentance and true forgiveness. I can't look into Grayson's head and heart and know, for sure, if he is truly remorseful and repentant for the tripping incidents. But he says he is. K, who knows him better than do I, believes he is, and therefore I believe he should be forgiven and given the opportunity to prove himself on the court.

3) ESPN and similar opinion and entertainment organizations are going bananas over it. They seem to have come up with the magic number of 3 games as being right. 1 game, therefore, is too short. It is shorter than what their wisdom, having no basis in any fact, science, or precedent, has settled on. K went with less. He even had the temerity to end the suspension in a shorter time than they would have liked AFTER a Duke loss. They are frothing at the mouth over it. That's all to the better. I sincerely hope Grayson proves K right, and them wrong, by spending the rest of his career in basketball without once tripping an opponent...for his sake, and to further show the world that K knows better than Myron Metcalf what is right for Grayson.

4) This is the attitude I want K and Duke to have: "We're Duke. We have run the best basketball program in the nation for closing in on 4 decades, and we have done it without any significant scandals, as close to the "right way" as anyone in basketball history. Despite this, or because of it, you all are going to hate us. You're going to be hypercritical of what we do. You're going to be hypocritical and asinine about it. We don't care. We're going to run our show the way we always have under Coach K. We're going to win. And you're going to hate it. And we really, really don't care." K could give a crap what ESPN thinks of his management of this situation. He could give a crap what Kentucky and UNC and UCLA fans think of it. He just showed them all that. I love it.

Tom B.
01-05-2017, 01:15 PM
3) ESPN and similar opinion and entertainment organizations are going bananas over it. They seem to have come up with the magic number of 3 games as being right. 1 game, therefore, is too short. It is shorter than what their wisdom, having no basis in any fact, science, or precedent, has settled on. K went with less. He even had the temerity to end the suspension in a shorter time than they would have liked AFTER a Duke loss. They are frothing at the mouth over it. That's all to the better. I sincerely hope Grayson proves K right, and them wrong, by spending the rest of his career in basketball without once tripping an opponent...for his sake, and to further show the world that K knows better than Myron Metcalf what is right for Grayson.

4) This is the attitude I want K and Duke to have: "We're Duke. We have run the best basketball program in the nation for closing in on 4 decades, and we have done it without any significant scandals, as close to the "right way" as anyone in basketball history. Despite this, or because of it, you all are going to hate us. You're going to be hypercritical of what we do. You're going to be hypocritical and asinine about it. We don't care. We're going to run our show the way we always have under Coach K. We're going to win. And you're going to hate it. And we really, really don't care." K could give a crap what ESPN thinks of his management of this situation. He could give a crap what Kentucky and UNC and UCLA fans think of it. He just showed them all that. I love it.

This. So much this. I must spread some comments around before I spork you, but...yeah.

It's also worth noting that while he only missed one game, Allen's suspension lasted 14 days. A 14-day suspension in the middle of the conference season is four or five games, maybe even six. So the magic number of three games that J-Will and others keep harping on would've been 8-11 days under normal circumstances. They keep wringing their hands because "one game isn't enough time to get his head in the right place," but if this had happened in the heart of the conference season, their preferred three-game suspension actually would've covered a shorter time window. So a three-game suspension that lasts 10 or 11 days at most is "enough time," but a one-game suspension that lasts 14 days isn't? Thanks for playing, guys -- let us know when you actually come up with a coherent theory as to why Grayson's suspension should've been longer.

Until then, I'll be enjoying what now appears to be a rejuvenated Duke squad.

jv001
01-05-2017, 01:31 PM
I really wish we would drop this whole "ESPN hates Duke" thing. ESPN has done more to spread our brand nationally and internationally that anyone outside of Durham. I know I am in the minority, but it just sounds like twerping to me.

JWill wore the uniform, and thinks something different than I do. He is entitled to an opinion. It doesn't always have to be the same as mine.

Anyway, let the bashing continue unabated.

Yeh, let's layoff ESPN and concentrate on our dislike for the cheating CHEATS! GoDuke!

devildeac
01-05-2017, 01:33 PM
Yeh, let's layoff ESPN and concentrate on our dislike for the cheating CHEATS! GoDuke!

Respectfully disagree. I'm perfectly capable of multi-tasking. ;)

tbyers11
01-05-2017, 01:42 PM
Respectfully disagree. I'm perfectly capable of multi-tasking. ;)

That, good sir, is why you are on Mount Hatemore 😀

atoomer0881
01-05-2017, 01:47 PM
This. So much this. I must spread some comments around before I spork you, but...yeah.

It's also worth noting that while he only missed one game, Allen's suspension lasted 14 days. A 14-day suspension in the middle of the conference season is four or five games, maybe even six. So the magic number of three games that J-Will and others keep harping on would've been 8-11 days under normal circumstances. They keep wringing their hands because "one game isn't enough time to get his head in the right place," but if this had happened in the heart of the conference season, their preferred three-game suspension actually would've covered a shorter time window. So a three-game suspension that lasts 10 or 11 days at most is "enough time," but a one-game suspension that lasts 14 days isn't? Thanks for playing, guys -- let us know when you actually come up with a coherent theory as to why Grayson's suspension should've been longer.

Until then, I'll be enjoying what now appears to be a rejuvenated Duke squad.

THANK YOU for saying something that actually makes sense. All they keep saying is Grayson needed to time to think about his actions, etc., etc., etc. Are they just angry that during that time Duke happened to only have one scheduled game? Akin to what you said, for example if the tripping incident occurred in last night's game, and the suspension came down today on January 5th and it was for 3 games, our next 3 games are January 7th, 10th, and 14th. That would be 9 days from today for him to "get his head in the right place and deal with his demons and figure out what is bothering him." So it seems 14 days suspension, and being stripped of his captaincy, is long enough, especially if Coach K and the staff feel it is appropriate. Sorry to all the Duke haters that they only had 1 game during that time.

Indoor66
01-05-2017, 02:45 PM
FOREGIVENESS is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it. ---Mark Twain

Maybe we should all enjoy the fragrance. The Violet has been crushed.

BandAlum83
01-05-2017, 02:50 PM
As soon as I knew Grayson was playing yesterday, I hit the mute button for the entire game. Just watched and didn't have to endure any of the predictable commentary. Could be a habit forming way to enjoy our games.

I really can't do that. I want analysis. I want to know what's going on in the game. Like who was that foul on? How many does he have?

Color commentary that brings useful information about what we've seen. Maybe tell me who has just check in so I don't have to pause and look at the lineup.

These are the normal things to expect. Yesterday, the story should have been that Duke scored 29 points in the first 7.5 minutes. 29 points!!!

I don't think the announcers were even watching the game! Matt Jones went to the bench for a long stretch with 2 fouls. Did they even mention it?

It was driving me crazy. The play by play needs to do his job, and the color commentator needs to start commenting on the game, not read their next editorial submission for espn.com!!

oakvillebluedevil
01-05-2017, 03:14 PM
I have no systemic problems with ESPN's or the media's coverage or commentary about Duke, given several considerations:

Duke is the best-known, best-liked and most hated college hoops program. Commentary comes with the territory. And basically, all publicity is good. Moreover, it's easy and clear to say, "I hate Duke," while if one says, "I hate Kentucky," it is a slurring mouthful of syllables of uncertain meaning. [Darn, that's a nice phrase. Not quite as good as Luke DeCock's description of "Allen's loose-limbed recidivism," but pretty good for an amateur.]
Grayson's strange, strange incident was bound to attract attention -- the best-known college player on the best-known team just before a holiday hiatus of basketball stories. The mindless commentary was really annoying -- Suspend or not? For how long? -- given that every person on camera and behind a microphone offered an opinion. How many of those guys mentioned that Grayson was an Academic All-American? This also comes with the territory.
Announcers seem to be pulling for Duke's opponents? Yep. Happens to all favorites -- the announcers are afraid of a blow-out and a loss of viewers and relish an upset. Let's hope there's not a time when we are viewed as the perpetual underdog in hoops.
The ESPN guys, especially Bilas, seem to be fully supportive of the cheaters in their battle against the NCAA. Yes, further than I would go, but let's see what the commentators say after UNC gets hammered. I think it will be a different tune.
There's an unfair bias in the North Carolina media against Duke and in favor of Carolina? Yep. Let's see... Duke is one-half the size of UNC. Twelve percent of Duke undergrads are from North Carolina; 90 percent of UNC's are in-state. Similar ratio among the alums, I assume. Which school would you expect to get the most coverage?


Thought this was a well articulated post, and the reasonable part of me has internalized it and completely understands and agrees.

But man the rest of me still can't stand Len Elmore

weezie
01-05-2017, 04:41 PM
I really can't do that. I want analysis....

Well, we get all that and laughs, and sometimes some colorful wankering in chat! :cool:

BandAlum83
01-05-2017, 05:16 PM
Well, we get all that and laughs, and sometimes some colorful wankering in chat! :cool:

meh...the chat gets a little negative at times, lol. And typing makes me take my eyes off the game, then i go back 15 seconds, and before you know it I'm 90 seconds behind live!

OldPhiKap
01-05-2017, 06:38 PM
Well, we get all that and laughs, and sometimes some colorful wankering in chat! :cool:


meh...the chat gets a little negative at times, lol. And typing makes me take my eyes off the game, then i go back 15 seconds, and before you know it I'm 90 seconds behind live!

Guess it depends upon with whom you chat.

Papa John
01-05-2017, 08:41 PM
Bilas was on Mike & Mike this morning, and I appreciated what he had to say about the Grayson situation. It brought his comments from last night into better context. Basically, he felt the one game suspension was fine, and the rationale likely had a lot to do with K wanting to “clear the decks” and make the team whole for Capel before heading into surgery.

He also said that J-Will and others are entitled to their own opinions, and he didn't disagree with Jay harping on the ACC for not stepping in, given that they reprimanded Grayson after trip #2 last season [which he felt is a big deal, though Golic (speaking from the perspective of a former player) basically scoffed at the idea that a ‘reprimand’ is in any manner a serious disciplinary action]. But at the end of the day, given that the ACC chose not to step in, Bilas basically agreed with the manner that K handled the whole thing and said it's now time to move on. He also noted that the public flogging that Grayson has weathered and the loss of his captain status are big deals that shouldn't be overlooked.

He did note that had he been in K's role making the decision, he likely would have factored into his calculus for the decision the potential public reaction to a single game as an “indefinite suspension.” Initially, I rolled my eyes at the statement, but I found his rationale to be actually quite thoughtful. As Jay put it, his concern would not be how the PR reaction would impact the institution but, rather, his concern would be what the impact would be on Grayson and the team. In other words, if the general perception is that the suspension is too short, then that would likely result in more negative pressure on Grayson upon his return. Of course, the only problem with this is that it’s impossible to prevent the negative PR pressure/reaction, as there will always be a subset of folks who perceive that the punishment/suspension falls short...

That said, in sum I appreciated what Jay had to say about the whole situation, and found it to be a very thoughtful take.

TKG
01-05-2017, 08:52 PM
Watching the Purdue v. Ohio State game with Jim Calhoun doing the color. With approximately 5:00 minutes to go in a tight ball game, the play-by-play guy makes a reference to tripping. Calhoun, much to his credit, did not take the bait. Paraphrasing Calhoun, he said coaches are dealing with 18-23 year old kids and kids make mistakes. The situation has been handled; it's over; move on. The play-by-play guy would not leave it alone and said "but what about the third time?". Calhoun responded, "They're still kids." End of conversation.

duke4ever19
01-05-2017, 09:27 PM
Hear me out here:

There is a beautiful set of trails around/near Cox Mountain that follow the Eno River. On one of these trails is this bridge (see attached picture).

I move that we petition the school to name that bridge The Grayson Allen "Suspension" Bridge. That way if anybody thinks Duke didn't take the situation seriously enough, we can point to the bridge and say, "They took it so seriously they named a freaking bridge after it!"

Perhaps it would help the parks dept. in that they could charge visitors a nominal fee to have their picture taken next to the sign.

7037

curtis325
01-05-2017, 09:39 PM
Hear me out here:

There is a beautiful set of trails around/near Cox Mountain that follow the Eno River. On one of these trails is this bridge (see attached picture).

I move that we petition the school to name that bridge The Grayson Allen "Suspension" Bridge. That way if anybody thinks Duke didn't take the situation seriously enough, we can point to the bridge and say, "They took it so seriously they named a freaking bridge after it!"

Perhaps it would help the parks dept. in that they could charge visitors a nominal fee to have their picture taken next to the sign.

7037

We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

(I've crossed that particular bridge over the Eno many times).

devildeac
01-05-2017, 09:43 PM
Hear me out here:

There is a beautiful set of trails around/near Cox Mountain that follow the Eno River. On one of these trails is this bridge (see attached picture).

I move that we petition the school to name that bridge The Grayson Allen "Suspension" Bridge. That way if anybody thinks Duke didn't take the situation seriously enough, we can point to the bridge and say, "They took it so seriously they named a freaking bridge after it!"

Perhaps it would help the parks dept. in that they could charge visitors a nominal fee to have their picture taken next to the sign.

7037

This would likely be A Bridge Too Far.

OldPhiKap
01-05-2017, 10:22 PM
Watching the Purdue v. Ohio State game with Jim Calhoun doing the color. With approximately 5:00 minutes to go in a tight ball game, the play-by-play guy makes a reference to tripping. Calhoun, much to his credit, did not take the bait. Paraphrasing Calhoun, he said coaches are dealing with 18-23 year old kids and kids make mistakes. The situation has been handled; it's over; move on. The play-by-play guy would not leave it alone and said "but what about the third time?". Calhoun responded, "They're still kids." End of conversation.

Good to hear.

Ultrarunner
01-06-2017, 12:27 AM
Yeh, let's layoff ESPN and concentrate on our dislike for the cheating CHEATS! GoDuke!


Respectfully disagree. I'm perfectly capable of multi-tasking. ;)

Yeah, knew I was going to get hit with the share-it-around notice but tried anyway.

devil84
01-06-2017, 09:10 AM
Bilas was on Mike & Mike this morning, and I appreciated what he had to say about the Grayson situation. It brought his comments from last night into better context. Basically, he felt the one game suspension was fine, and the rationale likely had a lot to do with K wanting to “clear the decks” and make the team whole for Capel before heading into surgery.

He also said that J-Will and others are entitled to their own opinions, and he didn't disagree with Jay harping on the ACC for not stepping in, given that they reprimanded Grayson after trip #2 last season [which he felt is a big deal, though Golic (speaking from the perspective of a former player) basically scoffed at the idea that a ‘reprimand’ is in any manner a serious disciplinary action]. But at the end of the day, given that the ACC chose not to step in, Bilas basically agreed with the manner that K handled the whole thing and said it's now time to move on. He also noted that the public flogging that Grayson has weathered and the loss of his captain status are big deals that shouldn't be overlooked.

He did note that had he been in K's role making the decision, he likely would have factored into his calculus for the decision the potential public reaction to a single game as an “indefinite suspension.” Initially, I rolled my eyes at the statement, but I found his rationale to be actually quite thoughtful. As Jay put it, his concern would not be how the PR reaction would impact the institution but, rather, his concern would be what the impact would be on Grayson and the team. In other words, if the general perception is that the suspension is too short, then that would likely result in more negative pressure on Grayson upon his return. Of course, the only problem with this is that it’s impossible to prevent the negative PR pressure/reaction, as there will always be a subset of folks who perceive that the punishment/suspension falls short...

That said, in sum I appreciated what Jay had to say about the whole situation, and found it to be a very thoughtful take.


Thanks for the summary, Papa John.

I've bolded an important point that I've been waiting for somebody in the media to bring up. I've heard it mentioned that he lost the captaincy, but other than stating that fact, I've not heard any analytical or editorial comments that it's a punishment, and a pretty big punishment at that. And absolutely NO mention of how it might feel to the young man to dominate the news for weeks.

Still not mentioned (other than on this board) is the continued flogging he will get. Look at what happened at VT: the crowd spent a considerable amount of time chanting about Grayson. Every Duke free throw, and at times, during the game. And he wasn't even playing! Imagine what it will be like for him at every venue from here on out.

I think the number of games sat pales in comparison to having the "crimes" and punishment scrutinized by the media. He even made the evening new AND morning shows that don't usually cover sports. Meanwhile, several other notable sports stories haven't had the kind of air time Grayson's gotten. That's worse than sitting out games, IMHO.

I think the loss of the captaincy is a big deal. The worst words my parents or other mentors can say to me were, "You disappointed me." I'd rather have them mad at me, telling me that what I did was wrong (it was usually a fact that I can't dispute), but to hear that I had disappointed them...argh. A knife into my heart. To me, stripping Grayson of the captaincy is a great big "you disappointed me." I'm fairly certain that Coach K would have used words to that effect, as he knows those are really powerful words. Give me ANY other punishment, ANYTHING other than "you disappointed me." Some may say, meh, what REALLY does a captain do? It's just symbolic. But man, to LOSE something like that -- to have disappointed a mentor, who just happens to be the greatest basketball coach of all time -- that's punishment. Couple that with the media and fans at the opposing venues, it's pretty severe. Playing games through that might be more difficult than sitting, quite frankly.

alteran
01-06-2017, 09:18 AM
We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

(I've crossed that particular bridge over the Eno many times).

Don't say "we" on that bridge-- got to cross it one at a time. ;-)

Old Gold 89
01-06-2017, 09:23 AM
Duke's one game suspension fell well within recent NCAA standards for dealing with a player's flagrant foul:

[LIST]
In 2014, the ACC suspended Montrezl Harrell for elbowing an opponent.

In 2016, Maryland suspended Diamond Stone for shoving an opponent's head onto the court.

In 2015, BYU suspended Nick Emery for punching a player from Utah.


In addition, Duke stripped Allen of his captaincy.

The reaction by many in sports media, including Jay Williams's, has simply been berserk -- completely detached from reality. Some would only be satisfied if Grayson was thrown in jail.

jv001
01-06-2017, 10:40 AM
Thanks for the summary, Papa John.

I've bolded an important point that I've been waiting for somebody in the media to bring up. I've heard it mentioned that he lost the captaincy, but other than stating that fact, I've not heard any analytical or editorial comments that it's a punishment, and a pretty big punishment at that. And absolutely NO mention of how it might feel to the young man to dominate the news for weeks.

Still not mentioned (other than on this board) is the continued flogging he will get. Look at what happened at VT: the crowd spent a considerable amount of time chanting about Grayson. Every Duke free throw, and at times, during the game. And he wasn't even playing! Imagine what it will be like for him at every venue from here on out.

I think the number of games sat pales in comparison to having the "crimes" and punishment scrutinized by the media. He even made the evening new AND morning shows that don't usually cover sports. Meanwhile, several other notable sports stories haven't had the kind of air time Grayson's gotten. That's worse than sitting out games, IMHO.

I think the loss of the captaincy is a big deal. The worst words my parents or other mentors can say to me were, "You disappointed me." I'd rather have them mad at me, telling me that what I did was wrong (it was usually a fact that I can't dispute), but to hear that I had disappointed them...argh. A knife into my heart. To me, stripping Grayson of the captaincy is a great big "you disappointed me." I'm fairly certain that Coach K would have used words to that effect, as he knows those are really powerful words. Give me ANY other punishment, ANYTHING other than "you disappointed me." Some may say, meh, what REALLY does a captain do? It's just symbolic. But man, to LOSE something like that -- to have disappointed a mentor, who just happens to be the greatest basketball coach of all time -- that's punishment. Couple that with the media and fans at the opposing venues, it's pretty severe. Playing games through that might be more difficult than sitting, quite frankly.

I think you make a great point about Grayson losing his captaincy and you are certainly correct regarding those fateful words, "you disappointed me". Whether it came from my parents, friends, coaches or other people in my life, it hurt worst than anything else they could've done or said. So yes, the one game suspension and the losing of his captaincy was probably enough punishment for the young man. I trust Coach K in matters like this and I'm not going to second guess our G.O.A.T. coach. It's over and let's move on. We have some unfinished business to take care of. GoDuke!

alteran
01-06-2017, 11:34 AM
I really wish we would drop this whole "ESPN hates Duke" thing. ESPN has done more to spread our brand nationally and internationally that anyone outside of Durham. I know I am in the minority, but it just sounds like twerping to me.

JWill wore the uniform, and thinks something different than I do. He is entitled to an opinion. It doesn't always have to be the same as mine.

Anyway, let the bashing continue unabated.

I don't disagree with this entirely (Jwill is welcome to his opinion, just like I am), I just want to throw in my two cents on this topic. This is not aimed at OPK, with whom I usually agree, but to the general "ESPN loves us like a new-found puppy with beautiful anime eyes" meme in general.

My two cents is, "come on, they pile on us with consistency, and that's impossible to dispute." I'm not going to cite a litany of examples, we all believe what we believe at this point. But I will say, folks, go ahead and find anything in ESPN's history that even whiffs of the Grayson Allen 7-of-ESPNs-Front-Page-Stories overreach for ANY other program in ANY sport, and I'll concede the point. Go ahead and look, I'll wait.

I agree that ESPN has essentially been all good for Duke, despite the bouts of bull. Kind of like Sean Penn punching a reporter usually ends well for the reporter— they get a settlement, lots of free publicity, and maybe even a book deal, despite the black eye. Totally worth it for them-- but that doesn’t mean they are compelled to praise being punched, or talk about what a great guy Sean Penn was because “he’s just giving his audience what they want.”**

Obviously, bitching about ESPN to the general public is "a bad look," I get that. I really only vent about it within the confines of tight groups of Duke fans. It's nice to blow off steam where the likelihood of sympathy about it is greater than the real world, a world where ESPN gives Grayson Allen tripping a guy far more coverage than the Baylor Basketball Murder Scandal ever got, not to mention the biggest cheating scandal of all time.

But hey, anyone here is free to chant “thank you, sir, may I have another?” all they want.

--alteran

** Okay, the analogy is not perfect. But you get the idea.

moonpie23
01-06-2017, 12:21 PM
Set the progress bar to 57:00 and just watch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKuL8Dn5_PY)......

Tom B.
01-06-2017, 12:57 PM
Duke's one game suspension fell well within recent NCAA standards for dealing with a player's flagrant foul:


In 2014, the ACC suspended Montrezl Harrell for elbowing an opponent.

In 2016, Maryland suspended Diamond Stone for shoving an opponent's head onto the court.

In 2015, BYU suspended Nick Emery for punching a player from Utah.


And going farther back in the time machine, there's always Chris Paul, who got one game for literally punching a guy in the nuts. My recollection is that Wake suspended him, not the ACC -- though IIRC, someone here (Olympic Fan?) pointed out that Wake suspended Paul after the ACC basically told Wake, "If you don't suspend him, we will."

And Paul's punchee, Julius Hodge, had previously been suspended one game for forearming another player in the head. I think it was the ACC that suspended Hodge, not N.C. State, but I can't recall for sure.

Slightly more recently, I think Deron Washington got one game for kicking Lee Melchionni in the face. (Hey Seth, remember that?) I don't recall whether it was Virginia Tech or the ACC that suspended Washington.



Watching the Purdue v. Ohio State game with Jim Calhoun doing the color. With approximately 5:00 minutes to go in a tight ball game, the play-by-play guy makes a reference to tripping. Calhoun, much to his credit, did not take the bait. Paraphrasing Calhoun, he said coaches are dealing with 18-23 year old kids and kids make mistakes. The situation has been handled; it's over; move on. The play-by-play guy would not leave it alone and said "but what about the third time?". Calhoun responded, "They're still kids." End of conversation.

I caught some of that game last night and actually found myself enjoying Calhoun's commentary. He was a lot like Bobby Knight used to be when he occasionally did color for ESPN -- he mostly just talked basketball and didn't go off on tangents or get all soapboxy about some pet issue. There's something to be said for using those curmudgeonly retired coaches as color guys -- with both Knight and Calhoun, their attitude seems to be, "Look, if you want me to talk basketball, great -- I'll give you all the insight I've got. But understand that I don't need this gig. I'm just doing it for fun. If you want someone to play a character, have a shtick, stir the pot, whatever, you've got the wrong dude. If that's what you want from me, sorry, I'll just go do something else."

-jk
01-06-2017, 09:29 PM
And going farther back in the time machine, there's always Chris Paul, who got one game for literally punching a guy in the nuts. My recollection is that Wake suspended him, not the ACC -- though IIRC, someone here (Olympic Fan?) pointed out that Wake suspended Paul after the ACC basically told Wake, "If you don't suspend him, we will."

And Paul's punchee, Julius Hodge, had previously been suspended one game for forearming another player in the head. I think it was the ACC that suspended Hodge, not N.C. State, but I can't recall for sure.

Slightly more recently, I think Deron Washington got one game for kicking Lee Melchionni in the face. (Hey Seth, remember that?) I don't recall whether it was Virginia Tech or the ACC that suspended Washington.




I caught some of that game last night and actually found myself enjoying Calhoun's commentary. He was a lot like Bobby Knight used to be when he occasionally did color for ESPN -- he mostly just talked basketball and didn't go off on tangents or get all soapboxy about some pet issue. There's something to be said for using those curmudgeonly retired coaches as color guys -- with both Knight and Calhoun, their attitude seems to be, "Look, if you want me to talk basketball, great -- I'll give you all the insight I've got. But understand that I don't need this gig. I'm just doing it for fun. If you want someone to play a character, have a shtick, stir the pot, whatever, you've got the wrong dude. If that's what you want from me, sorry, I'll just go do something else."

I miss Lefty, too...

-jk

atoomer0881
01-06-2017, 11:22 PM
Set the progress bar to 57:00 and just watch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKuL8Dn5_PY)...

never gets old... :-)

WVDUKEFAN
01-07-2017, 01:27 PM
I love it.

WVDUKEFAN
01-07-2017, 01:38 PM
The other thing I noticed about that game is we rotated 8.