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View Full Version : MBB: Virginia Tech 89, Duke 75 Post Game Thread



Bob Green
12-31-2016, 02:13 PM
Discuss the game here. Please keep it civil. Thanks!

TKG
12-31-2016, 02:15 PM
One team showed up and it was not us.

brlftz
12-31-2016, 02:16 PM
I hope we remember games like this when coach k's successor takes over.

lmb
12-31-2016, 02:17 PM
Ugly by any definition of the word. Glad Carolina lost.

subzero02
12-31-2016, 02:18 PM
I can't wait to refer to this game as something that happened last year... our perimeter defense was porous and our post players look like they are wearing lead shoes every time they jump. Hopefully this shows our squad that as talented as we are, we can't beat good teams if we don't play solid team defense.

WakeDevil
12-31-2016, 02:19 PM
Jefferson was the assist leader, so he should move to the point.

ipatent
12-31-2016, 02:20 PM
Give Virginia Tech credit, they are a good team and were up for the game in front of a great home crowd. This Duke team can't play defense well enough to slow the momentum of a team like that, in half court or in transition. Kennard had another great scoring game, but no one stepped up to help him with the scoring load.

Even with Allen on the floor, this team's offense tends to be one on one; there isn't a great playmaker. Hopefully by March Tatum can begin to fulfill that role to some extent. This was an acclimatization game for him, he's going to have to step things up in ACC play.

Dukehky
12-31-2016, 02:21 PM
Yo dudes,

I thought Harry showed some good bounce and a nose for the ball. Luke scored a bunch, but it was all off of his own creation. There is no offense right now. It's clear out and go.

Matt has been ________________ for the past few weeks (you may insert your own word, I'm sitting on a yellow card). He's 3/25 on his past 25 3 pointers. That is good for a whopping 12%. I'm not going to say anything other than that he does not need to be playing 35+ minutes a game, really ever. He has also not been as good as people say/think he is on defense. He got lost a few times tonight and has the absolute worst habit of trying to strip a guy on a wide open layup, tapping him on the arm, which is a clear foul, and giving up an and 1.

I don't understand really why K chose to try to match ups with VT's best lineups (going small). We have a wall of bigs, throw them out there. Especially when we're down by 20, I did not want to see Matt and Chase out there, put the kids in and let them figure it out.

I wasn't very happy about anything today other than the fact that Harry appears to be looking more and more comfortable playing basketball, even if he's not totally meshing with the rest of the offense.

Bolden looked quicker today too, but the way he's being used, I wouldn't be shocked if he went all Christian McCaffrey on us in a week or two.

Spanarkel
12-31-2016, 02:21 PM
Ugly by any definition of the word. Glad Carolina lost.


We were beaten at the three point line, but most decisively at the rim. VT drove the ball with impunity. Really bothered by our having just 3 assists. On the bright side, Harry looks more and more fluid each game: I know he is being brought along gradually but I see his minutes increasing by a factor of ~1.5 each game. I feel that HG will really help us in the near future.

cruxer
12-31-2016, 02:22 PM
I'm not going to over analyze this one. VPI played their tails off and I'm not sure we've had a consistent lineup for more than 3 games this season. We need to get better, we need to gel, and I'm confident we'll do both.

-c

CDu
12-31-2016, 02:24 PM
Give Virginia Tech credit, they are a good team and were up for the game in front of a great home crowd. This Duke team can't play defense well enough to slow the momentum of a team like that, in half court or in transition. Kennard had another great scoring game, but no one stepped up to help him with the scoring load.

Even with Allen on the floor, this team's offense tends to be one on one; there isn't a great playmaker. Hopefully by March Tatum can begin to fulfill that role to some extent. This was an acclimatization game for him, he's going to have to step things up in ACC play.

I don't think Tatum is destined to be a playmaker for others at Duke. That has never really been his game. He is a scorer.

For better or worse, we aren't going to have a distributor on this team. Allen is closest, but he is still a score-first guard.

And that is fine. We scored enough to win. It was our defense that lost it today.

Ultrarunner
12-31-2016, 02:25 PM
I can't say that I thought that was completely unexpected. The pieces of the team have a long way to go before they gel.

Some observations:

1. For all the talk about missing Grayson on the offensive end, it was at the defensive end he was most missed.
2. Giles will be a very solid contributor in about 10 games. Did a reasonably good job today against a less-than-ideal matchup.
3. Tatum plays soft. I'd like to see him channel a little of Justise Winslow . . .
4. Bolden isn't ready yet - he's overmatched by the speed of the game.
5. Luke just never hurries. Always under control.
6. Jackson has a ways to go. The physical tools are there, but he's not seeing the whole game yet. Not a terrible performance, given the circumstances.
7. I feel really sorry for Matt Jones. He'll get pilloried on the board again, but he's proven in the past that he's better than this.
8. Amile needs more touches. Calls under the basket when he gets hammered (repeatedly) would be appreciated.

I expect Grayson to sit out at least one more game. That is one more game for the younger guys to improve. Defense will be dicey during that stretch. Lots of lost freshmen out there today.

NashvilleDevil
12-31-2016, 02:25 PM
Carolina lost and Harry looked decent in his first extended playing time. That's all I got.
In 14-15, Duke got worked at home by Miami and many on here thought it was a sign of a mediocre season. In 09-10, Duke had some early struggles on the road and some thought it was a sign of mediocrity. Point being take this game for what it was a learning experience. I'll be happy with 3-2 or 4-1 during this phase of the season.

jbay201
12-31-2016, 02:26 PM
My takeways:
1) we need grayson back next game. He's definitely the most important player as the team was completely lost without him and really struggled with passing. He's by far our best distributor and if his shot is on (see UNLV) there is no one we can lose to. He also makes it easier for Luke to get wide open looks at 3 something VT made sure to limit him to today.
2) Jayson needs to drive more and shoot less long 2's and 3's. He also needs to be a better distributor as he had a couple of bad TOs. Still a freshman and due to limited games is still hesitant/not sure what to do on offense.
3) Giles needs more playing time but will need to earn it by playing better team defense. I am sure he will get there.

...at least UNC lost to a worse team and they were playing at full strength!

Kjeffrey
12-31-2016, 02:27 PM
Jefferson was the assist leader, so he should move to the point.

Unfortunately he also had 4 turnovers. The truly unfortunate thing is that the entire team had 8 assists and 11 turnovers. VaTech had two players with a combined 12 assists (and only 4 turnovers).

jipops
12-31-2016, 02:27 PM
Well at least it is still only December.

The result was predictable, the way in which it happened was not. We were dominated for 38 minutes, never even in it.

VTech forced us into zone as we were unable to defend anything off the dribble. Then they just hit the wide open 3's. Have to provide quicker help and rotation to have any shot later on. The offense is still a total mess just as it was the previous 2 games. Here you go Luke, find a shot. We have a lot of shot takers but almost no shot creators. This will be a problem all season.

Ultrarunner
12-31-2016, 02:28 PM
Yo dudes,

I don't understand really why K chose to try to match ups with VT's best lineups (going small). We have a wall of bigs, throw them out there. Especially when we're down by 20, I did not want to see Matt and Chase out there, put the kids in and let them figure it out.



Chase is one of the kids. He's a sophomore and did a pretty good job out there today.

Dukehky
12-31-2016, 02:30 PM
Can Tyus come back?

ChrisP
12-31-2016, 02:32 PM
Really happy that this will be our last loss of the year (see what I did there?) :cool:

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-31-2016, 02:32 PM
I hope we remember games like this when coach k's successor takes over.

I honestly don't know what this means.

This conference season is going to be brutal on everyone. There is a LOT of ball to be played and based on first match ups, the team I think looks best is UVa - not Duke or UNC.

drummerdevil
12-31-2016, 02:34 PM
Can Tyus come back?

I wish.

LasVegas
12-31-2016, 02:35 PM
This is my opinion and others are free to disagree but......Allen,Kennard,Tatum,Giles,Jefferson need to be starters. Jones 6th man with Jackson and bolden/jeter off the bench. This teams needs to find an identify quick. Roles need defined and players need to be comfortable with each other. If I'm K, I would tell Grayson he needs to come back and be the PG this team needs. Challenge him. With that starting 5, yeah it will be rocky for a bit but at least we can start to form an identity and then we can build from there. Duke just doesn't have the luxury of being able to use the non conf portion of the season to figure this out. Baptism by fire. Let's go.

brlftz
12-31-2016, 02:40 PM
I honestly don't know what this means.



It means that when we have the inevitable disappointing stretches where we play way under our potential, I hope we don't forget that it happens even when you have the GOAT on the sidelines

Channing
12-31-2016, 02:41 PM
Having watched the last two games, I don't really find this too surprising.

i don't think we can handle a player who is a net negative on offense. We have a couple guys who are fitting that description currently and with no real semblance of an offense other than 1 on 1.

Hopefully we pull it together soon.

heyman25
12-31-2016, 02:41 PM
Defense will be the challenge for this team.Transition defense is non existent. On offense it will get better if the defense gets better. We should be able to get 2nd and 3rd shots if we emphasize going after it.Beaten from the get go. Hopefully the learning from defeat will get this team going.

drummerdevil
12-31-2016, 02:42 PM
This is my opinion and others are free to disagree but...Allen,Kennard,Tatum,Giles,Jefferson need to be starters. Jones 6th man with Jackson and bolden/jeter off the bench. This teams needs to find an identify quick. Roles need defined and players need to be comfortable with each other. If I'm K, I would tell Grayson he needs to come back and be the PG this team needs. Challenge him. With that starting 5, yeah it will be rocky for a bit but at least we can start to form an identity and then we can build from there. Duke just doesn't have the luxury of being able to use the non conf portion of the season to figure this out. Baptism by fire. Let's go.

I totally agree with this. I don't think Giles is quite ready to start, but in a couple of games he will be. I do, however, think that Bolden really needs to step it up. He's not been playing on the level he needs to be. He showed amazing potential in the exhibition game but hasn't done anything to prove his worth since. I get that he's been injured, but he's not now, and I hope we can see him playing serious minutes soon.

Kjeffrey
12-31-2016, 02:46 PM
I totally agree with this. I don't think Giles is quite ready to start, but in a couple of games he will be. I do, however, think that Bolden really needs to step it up. He's not been playing on the level he needs to be. He showed amazing potential in the exhibition game but hasn't done anything to prove his worth since. I get that he's been injured, but he's not now, and I hope we can see him playing serious minutes soon.

Agree with all of this but I think Giles needs to be given more of an opportunity. His defense might not be great but it isn't like there is a defensive stopper playing in front of him.

drummerdevil
12-31-2016, 02:48 PM
Agree with all of this but I think Giles needs to be given more of an opportunity. His defense might not be great but it isn't like there is a defensive stopper playing in front of him.

Oh, I totally agree. I wasn't saying he wasn't good enough, he just was injured and couldn't play yet. I do think he showed amazing potential today on the offensive side, and I can't wait to see him once he settles in some.

uh_no
12-31-2016, 02:48 PM
People are often far too optimistic after big wins (UNLV???) and far too down after big losses. From my perspective, this means I'm usually spouting good things about big losses, and bad things about big wins (for which I often get derided...but anyway). It's simply not true that nothing can go wrong in a big game, or more topical, that nothing can go right for us to have lost big.

Lets start with the good:
* Most of the game was essentially a wash. The entire second half was pretty back and forth, and we came out +1. In fact, you can go back all the way to when it was 21-11...and the game was reasonably tight the rest of the way. Why?
* Once we figured out that we could score almost at will by just taking it inside, we did. We clearly never stopped them, but we did score with them for the last 30 minutes of the game. Yeah there were mini runs of 5-7 points, but that's typical.
* Rebounding. We beat them 41-33 on the boards, and we were about +20 percentage points on each side when accounting for opportunities.
* Grayson. I can't imagine a better scenario for him to be forced to sit and watch his team lose and not be able to do a thing about it. Despite that, he was still cheering for his teammates. Such a situation forced all his emotion to be constructive. I think it's good that his action finally affected the team on the floor. Might we have lost otherwise? yes of course...but you can imagine there was a lot of "I did this to myself, and I put the team in a position where we lost a league game. If he's as singularly driven to perform well and win, then I can't imagine a more effective negative reinforcement.
* Jayson. He had another really good game.
* Luke's POTY chances.

Lets Move on to the bad. I'll skip defense.
* Frank Jackson. He was, and I wish there were a nicer way to put it, terrible. That is largely justified by his being a freshman, but it doesn't change the evaluation. We needed him to step up today, and he didn't. no assists, awful shooting, missed layups at particularly inopportune times (given no missed layup is opportune). His defense seemed to result in a foul at best. I get it, he's a freshman, and he's being put in a really tough situation. When the goal is to get wins though, you can't sugar coat it...he is not ready to carry the load he was asked to.
* Taking a vacation for the first 10 minutes of the game. It took us that long to realize we could dribble into the lane and get guards open layups. We milked that for the rest of the game...but that first 10 minutes was rough. It's been a common theme these past couple games too. I'm not sure if it's poor game planning, poor execution, bad beef in the pregame dinner? Who knows...but playing from behind every game is not going to fly.
* bolden on defense. At this point, the only guys keeping him off the floor is himself. Unfortuantely at this point he'll have to learn by fire, or he's not going play much more. It's a shame, since I think with time, he'dbe really valuable out there...but he is just so much of a liability right now that we can't afford to have him out there for very long.
* layups...AHHHHHHH...amile, frank, giles, matt....everywhere!
* team play. there was very little team play on offense...some of the great ball movement we had seen earlier was absent. There was not great movement off the ball, and fewer kick out thrrees than I would like yo see.
*Matt's shooting.


Sigh. hope this is the kick in the pants this team needed...otherwise we're in for a long year...more like a parker/hood/Ingram type year rather than a winslow/tyus/okafor one.

Trinity_93
12-31-2016, 02:50 PM
Somebody get Grayson some warmups with "UNC-CHEAT" emblazoned across the front and we'll never see ESPN pull that split-screen crap again.

grossbus
12-31-2016, 02:50 PM
I think it is clear that Tatum will recover to his peak, but I am not sure Giles and Bolden have enough time to do the same.

Dukehky
12-31-2016, 02:51 PM
You just did a whole list of bads but forgot to mention... oh just never mind.

drummerdevil
12-31-2016, 02:52 PM
Sigh. hope this is the kick in the pants this team needed...otherwise we're in for a long year...more like a parker/hood/Ingram type year rather than a winslow/tyus/okafor one.

I would have liked to see the three of them together, but sadly, it never happened.

Devilwin
12-31-2016, 02:52 PM
We are running out of time. With all our talent, we look very ordinary at times. Defense is atrocious, and is our main Achilles' heel.
We need to settle on a line up and get on the road to glory..

jbay201
12-31-2016, 02:52 PM
This is my opinion and others are free to disagree but...Allen,Kennard,Tatum,Giles,Jefferson need to be starters. Jones 6th man with Jackson and bolden/jeter off the bench. This teams needs to find an identify quick. Roles need defined and players need to be comfortable with each other. If I'm K, I would tell Grayson he needs to come back and be the PG this team needs. Challenge him. With that starting 5, yeah it will be rocky for a bit but at least we can start to form an identity and then we can build from there. Duke just doesn't have the luxury of being able to use the non conf portion of the season to figure this out. Baptism by fire. Let's go.

I agree! We need Grayson back next game as we can't afford to drop another game especially at home to either GT or BC. We really need to start to get the next two games since we are at home and play FSU and Louisville away after that (both ranked).

uh_no
12-31-2016, 02:59 PM
I agree! We need Grayson back next game as we can't afford to drop another game especially at home to either GT or BC. We really need to start to get the next two games since we are at home and play FSU and Louisville away after that (both ranked).

I am confident the risk of losing the game will play 0% in the decision whether to reinstate grayson.

fuse
12-31-2016, 03:00 PM
Being reported the post game K indicated Grayson no longer a captain.

One game does not a season make.
We're far from where I hoped we'd be, and yet the journey of the season is still full of potential and excitement.

Let's go Duke!

Rich
12-31-2016, 03:00 PM
Sigh. hope this is the kick in the pants this team needed...otherwise we're in for a long year...more like a parker/hood/Ingram type year rather than a winslow/tyus/okafor one.

Let's not forget the defensive struggles we went through in the winslow/tyus/okafor year heading into the Louisville game in mid-January when K rolled out use of the zone almost exclusively. I've repeatedly said that frosh take longer to acclimate to K's defense system and I think it's generally harder for big men who have to learn how to come off their man, protect the rim, and recover. The 2015 team didn't really gel on defense until March and the 2017 team is behind them due to injuries (although I recall both Okafor and Winslow were also injured early in the season). I am confident that K will get them there, but it's going to take patience on our part. I think this team has a high basketball IQ and the ceiling is very high.

Rich
12-31-2016, 03:02 PM
We are running out of time. With all our talent, we look very ordinary at times. Defense is atrocious, and is our main Achilles' heel.
We need to settle on a line up and get on the road to glory..

C'mon man, it's December! Patience...

uh_no
12-31-2016, 03:03 PM
Let's not forget the defensive struggles we went through in the winslow/tyus/okafor year heading into the Louisville game in mid-January when K rolled out use of the zone almost exclusively. I've repeatedly said that frosh take longer to acclimate to K's defense system and I think it's generally harder for big men who have to learn how to come off their man, protect the rim, and recover. The 2015 team didn't really gel on defense until March and the 2017 team is behind them due to injuries (although I recall both Okafor and Winslow were also injured early in the season). I am confident that K will get them there, but it's going to take patience on our part. I think this team has a high basketball IQ and the ceiling is very high.

I haven't forgotten. It is exactly as you say....the injuries put them 2 months behind, making the whole "coming together in march" thing far more challenging to achieve.

jipops
12-31-2016, 03:04 PM
I don't think Tatum is destined to be a playmaker for others at Duke. That has never really been his game. He is a scorer.

For better or worse, we aren't going to have a distributor on this team. Allen is closest, but he is still a score-first guard.

And that is fine. We scored enough to win. It was our defense that lost it today.

I disagree that is fine. Poor shots are going to lead to easy runouts and scores for the opposition. And we have never shown a decent ability to defend in transition. Our lack of distribution is going to be a problem to be compensated for all season.

kAzE
12-31-2016, 03:06 PM
Well, I expected this to be a tough game, but I definitely didn't expect them to dominate us form start to finish. Many of the same issues on offense from the past 2 games persisted, but our defensive effort was atrocious, especially on closeouts. VT got way, way too many good looks from 3, and we got eviscerated in transition. That's on us.

Offensively, we got most of our points from guys going 1 on 1. We sorely missed Grayson's ability to penetrate and kick the ball to open shooters. I hoped Frank would be able to replicate this to some degree, but he was not ready for this assignment as a young guy playing his first true road game. That's excusable. He will get better.

Matt's shooting woes continue. I don't know if he's ever had such a long cold streak in his entire career. Just brutal. Thank goodness for Luke . . . what a performance. He probably won't get too many accolades because of the loss, but he was unstoppable yet again.

I'm still not too worried long term. We're not playing anything like a top 10 team at the moment, but we SHOULD still easily beat GTech at home, with or without Grayson. It was good to see Harry play the most minutes of his career to this point, and get his first field goal, but he looks a lot like freshman Chase Jeter right now: hesitant to mix it up down low on offense and a foul machine on defense. He did grab 8 rebounds in 13 minutes though, so I feel like his breakout is coming. However, I'm starting to get a little worried about Marques. I thought he would be much further along by now. Maybe his mysterious injury is still bothering him?

Really glad our next game is at home. We need to do a lot of growing up in a very short amount of time if we hope to post wins against FSU and Louisville in those upcoming contests.

Kjeffrey
12-31-2016, 03:06 PM
Oh, I totally agree. I wasn't saying he wasn't good enough, he just was injured and couldn't play yet. I do think he showed amazing potential today on the offensive side, and I can't wait to see him once he settles in some.

Absolutely agree and didn't mean to imply anything else. I am hoping increased minutes for Giles with reduced minutes to another player (not using a name - you all can guess) will improve the team offense and defense.

NashvilleDevil
12-31-2016, 03:10 PM
We are running out of time. With all our talent, we look very ordinary at times. Defense is atrocious, and is our main Achilles' heel.
We need to settle on a line up and get on the road to glory..

They are not running out of time. It is one game in the toughest conference in college basketball. In 14-15, Duke got worked in back to back games by State and Miami and that season turned out just fine. Having 3 difficult road games during this phase will help these guys.

uh_no
12-31-2016, 03:14 PM
They are not running out of time. It is one game in the toughest conference in college basketball. In 14-55, Duke got worked in back to back games by State and Miami and that season turned out just fine. Having 3 difficult road games during this phase will help these guys.

Fully agree...was surprised that a team could be running out of team in the first game of league season...was as disappointed as any other duke fan, but the team will be different in march. whether that will be enough? who knows.

Highlander
12-31-2016, 03:17 PM
A friend asked me how many games Grayson would sit. My best guess as to a fair punishment is 3 games - one for each trip. Regardless of how many games it is, armchair announcers will complain it should have been at least one more when he does come back.

As for the game, transition defense was a huge problem. VT's first 3 field goals were all transition buckets and helped blow the game open early. Offensively I agree we have no ball movement, just a clear out for someone to go 1v1. Other random thoughts:
- Tatum takes some Kobe-esque shots sometimes. He's not Kobe. 80% of the time he misses them.
- Amile got abused tonight in the post.
- Jackson and Jones offered nothing productive on offense. Jones missing a wide open look at a three just kills us.
- Giles showed some flashes on offense, but gave up 3 fouls in 4 possessions on Defense trying to defend the pick and roll

We don't look confident on either end of the floor, and haven't looked solid for 3 straight games. With GT coming to Cameron high on confidence after taking down UNC, and us playing without Grayson, I would not be surprised if we started our conference season 0-2.

Lastly - I will say with all due respect to Hokie fans, I agree with my friend who said that was one of the lamest court storming attempts I have ever seen. It was like everyone was confused about what to do. And the "We want Grayson" chants were petty.

uh_no
12-31-2016, 03:19 PM
And the "We want Grayson" chants were petty.

Eh. krazies would have gone to town on an opponent in a similar situation....and have chanted "Where is <whoever>" When a player is suspended...there fans were great today....even if it was a weak storming attempt....trying to get on them for hitting a ball like Grayson which is teed up for them is just being salty.

Karl Beem
12-31-2016, 03:38 PM
We were beaten at the three point line, but most decisively at the rim. VT drove the ball with impunity. Really bothered by our having just 3 assists. On the bright side, Harry looks more and more fluid each game: I know he is being brought along gradually but I see his minutes increasing by a factor of ~1.5 each game. I feel that HG will really help us in the near future.

He should be ready for the NBA combine.

CharlestonDave
12-31-2016, 03:39 PM
I know that this might be tough to say, but is it just possible that we are not as good as advertised. Pre-season everyone was almost assuring that we would be final 4 team and many predicted a National championship.

As someone previously posted we are not right now even a top 10 team. Something is missing fromthis team and I cannot put my finger on it , and it is not Grayson Allen

CoachJ10
12-31-2016, 03:48 PM
is essential in the OAD era. It helps bridge the lack of continuity with new superstars coming in for just one year and moving on.

Our seniors did not show much leadership tonight. Intensity on defense should be initiated from them. Pride should flow from them. Taking care of the little things should be promoted by them.
2015 had Quin Cook doing all those things. We need Matt and Amile (and Grayson, grouping in that category) to lead for this team to succeed.

LasVegas
12-31-2016, 03:49 PM
I know that this might be tough to say, but is it just possible that we are not as good as advertised. Pre-season everyone was almost assuring that we would be final 4 team and many predicted a National championship.

As someone previously posted we are not right now even a top 10 team. Something is missing fromthis team and I cannot put my finger on it , and it is not Grayson Allen

Cohesiveness, defined roles, freshman, and injuries which delayed the progression of this team

Neals384
12-31-2016, 03:49 PM
Somebody get Grayson some warmups with "UNC-CHEAT" emblazoned across the front and we'll never see ESPN pull that split-screen crap again.

Wish there was a law against split-screen. Never helpful, but today it was just stupid.

mgtr
12-31-2016, 03:52 PM
No surprise that Coach K was right -- we are about two months behind. We will get better.

uh_no
12-31-2016, 03:54 PM
is essential in the OAD era. It helps bridge the lack of continuity with new superstars coming in for just one year and moving on.

Our seniors did not show much leadership tonight. Intensity on defense should be initiated from them. Pride should flow from them. Taking care of the little things should be promoted by them.
2015 had Quin Cook doing all those things. We need Matt and Amile (and Grayson, grouping in that category) to lead for this team to succeed.

Was disappointed in the number of times amile didn't get down the court. I understand he was frustrated, but that's not an excuse for not hustling. REally surprised as that's not what I'm used to seeing from him. He can't be arguing with the refs about a no-call when VT is in transition already.

azzefkram
12-31-2016, 03:55 PM
What a bummer. With the talent this team has, they should never take a beat down like that from a mid tier ACC team. That was humbling. Aside from rebounding, there wasn't any phase of the game that they weren't dominated. Good news is that they still have a boatload of talent, one of the greatest coaches on the bench and a whole lot of basketball left to play. Have a safe and happy New Year's everyone.

CoachJ10
12-31-2016, 03:57 PM
A friend asked me how many games Grayson would sit. My best guess as to a fair punishment is 3 games - one for each trip. Regardless of how many games it is, armchair announcers will complain it should have been at least one more when he does come back.

I would be very surprised if Grayson sat out for any more games other than today's. Unless there is something more going on behind the scenes...I expect him to play on Wednesday.

CDu
12-31-2016, 03:58 PM
Was disappointed in the number of times amile didn't get down the court. I understand he was frustrated, but that's not an excuse for not hustling. REally surprised as that's not what I'm used to seeing from him. He can't be arguing with the refs about a no-call when VT is in transition already.

I agree, although the guy under the basket isn't the one most responsible for allowing transition baskets. It is the other guys on the floor that have to get back first. Our perimeter guys did a terrible job of preventing transition baskets.

CoachJ10
12-31-2016, 03:58 PM
Was disappointed in the number of times amile didn't get down the court. I understand he was frustrated, but that's not an excuse for not hustling. REally surprised as that's not what I'm used to seeing from him. He can't be arguing with the refs about a no-call when VT is in transition already.

Admittedly he was getting hammered left and right with no call...but yes, he needs to talk less with the refs...let K do that.

Dukehky
12-31-2016, 04:01 PM
is essential in the OAD era. It helps bridge the lack of continuity with new superstars coming in for just one year and moving on.

Our seniors did not show much leadership tonight. Intensity on defense should be initiated from them. Pride should flow from them. Taking care of the little things should be promoted by them.
2015 had Quin Cook doing all those things. We need Matt and Amile (and Grayson, grouping in that category) to lead for this team to succeed.

No, you need senior leadership that you can depend on to produce. You could depend on Quinn. You could depend on Nolan. You could depend on Scheyer. You could depend on Mason.

The problem here, is that our other players are all ball dominant players, so when Amile should probably get the ball to get a bucket or a foul (he got no calls today by the way), he doesn't get the ball enough. I feel comfortable that Amile is going to do something correctly when given the ball in the post.

You cannot depend on Matt to produce (I know he's had some very good games, but his inconsistency has been maddening over the last couple years). He and Tyler Thornton are the same guy. K talks about Matt and Tyler in the same vein, great leaders, but when things weren't going right with Jabari and Rodney, Tyler wasn't the guy to get a result. I don't mean that to be a bash on Jones, but that's just not what kind of player he is (we saw that today with some ill advised drives). I just don't think we should really expect too much of Matt on offense at this point, and we really do need him to be better on defense.

Also, defensively, if we're going to press 30 feet out, we need Bolden or Chase in the game to be a rim protector (Giles looks to be afraid of contact-- understandable). Amile is a better chase down or on ball rim protector because he can control the foul call in those situations much better. Bolden and Jeter can get 10 fouls called between then protecting the rim, but we can't lose Amile.

Saratoga2
12-31-2016, 04:03 PM
Clearly the defense was beaten off the dribble and often down the floor. i didn't think Frank could defend his man and we had no shot blockers until Chase came into the game. I won't go off on Matt since I noticed him putting pressure on the ball and getting a few steals. His scoring is pretty weak now so with Luke and Jayson producing most of the points I would think we will be easy to defend. I do think Grayson would have helped the defense and taken some of the play making and scoring load on.

Like others, I though Harry looked smoother today but had real trouble defending the smaller penetrators. Coach K had no workable options so we lost and probably will lose more in this tough conference, certainly until we can find a lineup and rotation that can play defense and score more efficiently.

Did anyone else notice the VT coach standing on the floor down in our end when we were trying to score. He seemed to bang the floor and yell. If I was a Duke player, I would have flung the ball at him. He kept getting on the floor throughout the game. IN my book, that is a technical foul.

azzefkram
12-31-2016, 04:05 PM
I would be very surprised if Grayson sat out for any more games other than today's. Unless there is something more going on behind the scenes...I expect him to play on Wednesday.

I would be shocked if he plays Wednesday. K sounded fairly disappointed when talking about the incident. Someone mentioned that Grayson is no longer a captain. If that's true, one game seems on the light side.

CoachJ10
12-31-2016, 04:07 PM
No, you need senior leadership that you can depend on to produce. You could depend on Quinn. You could depend on Nolan. You could depend on Scheyer. You could depend on Mason.

I think you are missing part of the point. No one expects Matt to produce...or Amile to be a player he is not.

But you expect them to light the fire and intensity under the frosh that comes with experience and having gone thru things.

As valuable as Quin was in producing on the court...his focus and and attention to detail and "professionalism" influenced our Big 3 tremendously. That's what I am talking about.

CoachJ10
12-31-2016, 04:09 PM
I would be shocked if he plays Wednesday. K sounded fairly disappointed when talking about the incident. Someone mentioned that Grayson is no longer a captain. If that's true, one game seems on the light side.

So you think Grayson should sit out ~ 10% of the season? Again...unless there is more going on...that is unduly onerous in my opinion.

lotusland
12-31-2016, 04:12 PM
We won the second half by 2!

VT is good. They move the ball extremely well. You can't rotate a half step slow against a team like that. Duke was maybe a step and half slow. Even Amile got caught out of position and rotated slowly at times. Giles took some lumps but showed flashes of his ability. Bolden wasn't as bad as some have said but he's not going to get much burn in the second half when Duke's playing catch up. Jeter was solid. Grayson would help with ball movement. Just having another shooter would help. Who is Kennard supposed to drive and dish to? Right now he's the only guy our opponent needs to guard closely on the 3 point line without Grayson. Tatum and Jackson are just average at best from outside and Jones is in a horrible shooting slump.

We scored 75 on a bad shooting day so defense is he bigger concern. Jackson has the speed to be a good to very good defender . Right now he's only average. Giles is also quick inside so I think the game will start slowing down for him and he'll get more blocks and pick up fewer fowls. We have the athletes to play very good defense if we can put it together. What Duke needs from Grayson is good defense, ball handling, drive and dish and 3 pt shooting. Just the skills he will need to excel at to become an NBA combo guard. If he shoots 50% and averages 12 points and 5 assists with 2 or fewer TOs Duke will be very good.

It's going to be going to be tough for Bolden to get a lot of minutes in conference play especially with Jeter playing well. He really needed some cupcake non-conference games to develop and gain confidence. Duke is going to get better but they'll need to find ways to win while we're getting there.

duke96
12-31-2016, 04:14 PM
So you think Grayson should sit out ~ 10% of the season? Again...unless there is more going on...that is unduly onerous in my opinion.

I suspect you will find a long line of willing takers if you were to bet that Grayson plays against Georgia Tech.

Ultrarunner
12-31-2016, 04:15 PM
I would be very surprised if Grayson sat out for any more games other than today's. Unless there is something more going on behind the scenes...I expect him to play on Wednesday.

We could start a pool. I think he's back for the BC game, first sub off the bench.

BD80
12-31-2016, 04:16 PM
I don't think Tatum is destined to be a playmaker for others at Duke. That has never really been his game. He is a scorer.
...

Sad thing is that if Luke passes it to Jayson, his best chance of getting the ball back is an offensive rebound. Wish that were a joke.

I blame Grayson for the loss, if he did run the scout team in practice, how were we so unprepared for such simple sets and dribble drives? That was a joke.

For the Matt supporters - was his defense as abysmal as it appeared to me? He and Jackson were amazingly AWFUL in rotating back to defend in transition. As bad as I have seen 40 in years of watching Duke.

Other than Luke and Amile, we were 13 for 39 from the field - awful.

Good news - its a very young, very talented team that will getter better, and which may get a whole lot better if the guys come together as a team.

And carolina lost.

azzefkram
12-31-2016, 04:22 PM
So you think Grayson should sit out ~ 10% of the season? Again...unless there is more going on...that is unduly onerous in my opinion.

I wasn't writing about what I think but what I expect. Multiple incidents, a sideline meltdown and the striping of the captaincy doesn't appear to jibe with a one game sit down.

CDu
12-31-2016, 04:28 PM
Well, that sucked. We just never matched Tech's effort. They got whatever shots they wanted, and converted them at will. We gave up over 40 in each half. That is a recipe for a loss.

The good:
Luke Kennard on offense. The dude can flat out score. He did it in every way. He hit 3s, he hit runners, he got to the rim. He is one of the best all-around scorers in the country. Just an incredible feel for the game on offense. If you could combine his skills and feel with Allen's athleticism, YIKES! Kennard is playing like a first-team All-American and PoY candidate on offense.

I might be willing to stop there with the good, but I will be charitable.

Tatum's second half. Tatum was really bad in the first half, but he stepped it up in the second half. He was aggressive but patient, and seemed to really cause Tech problems. He is a big key to our season, so it was nice to see him better in the second half.

Giles' first half. Giles came in and showed some gimpses of what folks expected of him. He had a nice jump hook, and was active on the glass including a very athletic tip-in. Unfortunately his second half was... not good. But it was nice to see a glimpse of the talent.

Rebounding was good.

The bad: most everything else. Kennard shot 11-19. Jefferson and Tatum combined to shoot 10-23, which isn't awful, but they had 7 turnovers. And the rest of the team shot just 7-25 and 0-3 from the line. The freshmen played like kids playing in their first true road game. Allen's absence was notable. We could have used another veteran out there to help with communication and effort on defense. Hopefully they learn quickly from this. It is still early in the season, but March will sneak up all too soon.

CoachJ10
12-31-2016, 04:28 PM
I wasn't writing about what I think but what I expect. Multiple incidents, a sideline meltdown and the striping of the captaincy doesn't appear to jibe with a one game sit down.

Good thing the DBR wasn't around when Bobby Hurley was around. You guys would have him sitting for 1/2 the season with all the pouting and emotional outbursts he had.

dukelifer
12-31-2016, 04:30 PM
Sad thing is that if Luke passes it to Jayson, his best chance of getting the ball back is an offensive rebound. Wish that were a joke.

I blame Grayson for the loss, if he did run the scout team in practice, how were we so unprepared for such simple sets and dribble drives? That was a joke.

For the Matt supporters - was his defense as abysmal as it appeared to me? He and Jackson were amazingly AWFUL in rotating back to defend in transition. As bad as I have seen 40 in years of watching Duke.

Other than Luke and Amile, we were 13 for 39 from the field - awful.

Good news - its a very young, very talented team that will getter better, and which may get a whole lot better if the guys come together as a team.

And carolina lost.
Yes no sugar coating this. Team did not come in to match Hokies. This is where senior leaders need to step up and Matt did not. D was very bad- Frosh played like Frosh. This team has talent but the ACC is a grinder. Without Allen
(and a less than healthy Jackson) this team has little margin for error against any team in the league. Teams get up for Duke. Have to play with intensity and together.

A few nice moments for Giles but it will take weeks for him to be consistent. Not sure I get what is happening with Bolden. He is way behind. I think this team can turn it around but confidence is a fragile thing.

Kedsy
12-31-2016, 04:30 PM
I know that this might be tough to say, but is it just possible that we are not as good as advertised. Pre-season everyone was almost assuring that we would be final 4 team and many predicted a National championship.

As someone previously posted we are not right now even a top 10 team. Something is missing fromthis team and I cannot put my finger on it , and it is not Grayson Allen

You guys crack me up.

First of all, for all you people lamenting Duke's terrible offense, let's look at Pomeroy's numbers and see what he would predict if Duke and Virginia Tech played at Tech again tomorrow, though I'm using Pomeroy's current numbers so today's performance is factored in. With that caveat, KenPom would expect Duke to score 79 and give up 76, if we had another 70 possession game like we had today.

We scored 75 points today, a little bit under expectations but considering one of the best offensive players in the country didn't suit up for us, it seems like we did about what was expected or maybe even a little better. So, for all those people saying begging Tyus Jones to return, I think you're barking up the wrong whatever.

Obviously giving up 89 points when we were "supposed" to only give up 76 was the problem. Though the real problem was VaTech shooting so well from three, which wasn't entirely within Duke's control (if the Hokies had shot their usual percentage, they would have scored 80 points, only a little worse for Duke than expected, and the game would have been much closer). But putting that aside, for those who say we're hopeless on defense, if you compare our current kenpom defensive rating to our kenpom defensive rating the day after our first ACC road loss in 2015 (which happened Jan 11, 2015), we're actually a little better now (now: 92.2, #20; 1/12/15: 92.4, #35). And our adjusted defensive rating this season has been earned with several key pieces missing a ton of games due to injury (and suspension). So we're no worse off than we were at a comparable time in 2015, and maybe better.

As uh_no pointed out, our rebounding today was a bright spot (74.2% DR%; 41.9% OR%, both outstanding numbers). And Harry's 24.6 rebounds per 40 minutes suggests those rebounding numbers may be legit.

Jayson took a lot of shots (as usual), but his eFG% was 50%, which while not amazing is way better than it has been, so hopefully he's pointed in the right direction.

As others pointed out, we got shellacked (not just beaten but pummeled) on the road twice in 2015 and twice in 2010. Both seasons, posters on DBR announced that those Duke teams weren't good enough to make the NCAA tournament, much less get out of the first round. Both seasons turned out pretty well. So chill.

NYBri
12-31-2016, 04:32 PM
As I asked in the in game thread: What were we doing for the last 10 days? Not much, apparently.

Spanarkel
12-31-2016, 04:33 PM
Did anyone else notice the VT coach standing on the floor down in our end when we were trying to score. He seemed to bang the floor and yell. If I was a Duke player, I would have flung the ball at him. He kept getting on the floor throughout the game. IN my book, that is a technical foul.


Yes, Buzz Williams' positioning on the court and his gestures were annoying and shouldn't be allowed. I KNOW that I saw him go well out of his way(all the way to the free throw line area)when a timeout was called in the second half, and he and Luke appeared to brush each other briefly.

rocketeli
12-31-2016, 04:36 PM
Clearly the defense was beaten off the dribble and often down the floor. i didn't think Frank could defend his man and we had no shot blockers until Chase came into the game. I won't go off on Matt since I noticed him putting pressure on the ball and getting a few steals. His scoring is pretty weak now so with Luke and Jayson producing most of the points I would think we will be easy to defend. I do think Grayson would have helped the defense and taken some of the play making and scoring load on.

Like others, I though Harry looked smoother today but had real trouble defending the smaller penetrators. Coach K had no workable options so we lost and probably will lose more in this tough conference, certainly until we can find a lineup and rotation that can play defense and score more efficiently.

Did anyone else notice the VT coach standing on the floor down in our end when we were trying to score. He seemed to bang the floor and yell. If I was a Duke player, I would have flung the ball at him. He kept getting on the floor throughout the game. IN my book, that is a technical foul.

I saw that-so I watched to see what he would do when the VT offense was on that end of the floor. He was very careful to stay off the floor! So obviously he was doing it on purpose, to use up space and to be in the corner of the Duke's player's eyes and maybe throw them off...inexcusable that the refs let him get away with it. If I were the Duke staff/players,I wouldn't throw the ball at him, I'd "accidentally" flatten him running around the court.

gofurman
12-31-2016, 04:37 PM
What a bummer. With the talent this team has, they should never take a beat down like that from a mid tier ACC team. That was humbling. Aside from rebounding, there wasn't any phase of the game that they weren't dominated. Good news is that they still have a boatload of talent, one of the greatest coaches on the bench and a whole lot of basketball left to play. Have a safe and happy New Year's everyone.

Not going to get too crazy about first road game vs a good team ( not great but v good). Just too much disconnect. Injuries. Grayson. These guys never have gotten enough time together. Be patient. I mean unc lost to a worse team and unc isn't missing Grayson ...nor has the injuries ... And is much more experienced than us !! Unc has tons of upperclassmen and they dropped one at GT in a less hostile environment. It was borderline pro-UNC as GT was in a bowl game today

HUGE POINT - experience. Experience. Experience. Where would we be if Amile had graduated? What if Grayson had left? (Suspension aside). Look at Kennards improvement !!!


That said. We stunk up the place. - I don't ever buy into Freshman until they show me. Tatum has. That's one of four. Giles MAY come around. Hope so. Tatum is great in general (efficiency can struggle but he is only in his sixth game). Bolden as a first round pick? Huh? He isn't contributing much yet for Duke... Jackson is in a tougher position than the young big guys. They can at least get rebounds by just being tall. Jackson has to actually create and shoot. --- Lukes improvement is a great example of a super guard who struggled as a freshman

I don't get the bad transition D? Would Grayson have helped that? Maybe some if we take less bad shots. Bad shots do lead to run outs.

D was our main problem today. That's the most points we have given up all year. No excuse but a small shooting team is a hard matchup for us. Still, why don't we impose OUR WILL ON THEM instead of them imposing their will on us??? If we are bigger they get open perimeter shots but we should have a field day inside w Giles and Bolden and Jefferson - basically vpi' s tallest player is 6'7. !

We need a facilitator on O. We had less than ten assists as a team I think ???????


Thoughts?

NashvilleDevil
12-31-2016, 04:38 PM
You guys crack me up.

First of all, for all you people lamenting Duke's terrible offense, let's look at Pomeroy's numbers and see what he would predict if Duke and Virginia Tech played at Tech again tomorrow, though I'm using Pomeroy's current numbers so today's performance is factored in. With that caveat, KenPom would expect Duke to score 79 and give up 76, if we had another 70 possession game like we had today.

We scored 75 points today, a little bit under expectations but considering one of the best offensive players in the country didn't suit up for us, it seems like we did about what was expected or maybe even a little better. So, for all those people saying begging Tyus Jones to return, I think you're barking up the wrong whatever.

Obviously giving up 89 points when we were "supposed" to only give up 76 was the problem. Though the real problem was VaTech shooting so well from three, which wasn't entirely within Duke's control (if the Hokies had shot their usual percentage, they would have scored 80 points, only a little worse for Duke than expected, and the game would have been much closer). But putting that aside, for those who say we're hopeless on defense, if you compare our current kenpom defensive rating to our kenpom defensive rating the day after our first ACC road loss in 2015 (which happened Jan 11, 2015), we're actually a little better now (now: 92.2, #20; 1/12/15: 92.4, #35). And our adjusted defensive rating this season has been earned with several key pieces missing a ton of games due to injury (and suspension). So we're no worse off than we were at a comparable time in 2015, and maybe better.

As uh_no pointed out, our rebounding today was a bright spot (74.2% DR%; 41.9% OR%, both outstanding numbers). And Harry's 24.6 rebounds per 40 minutes suggests those rebounding numbers may be legit.

Jayson took a lot of shots (as usual), but his eFG% was 50%, which while not amazing is way better than it has been, so hopefully he's pointed in the right direction.

As others pointed out, we got shellacked (not just beaten but pummeled) on the road twice in 2015 and twice in 2010. Both seasons, posters on DBR announced that those Duke teams weren't good enough to make the NCAA tournament, much less get out of the first round. Both seasons turned out pretty well. So chill.

One nit, I think Duke got pummeled at NC State and then pummeled at home by Miami in 14-15. In 09-10, I think the thumpings were at State and at Georgetown with POTUS in attendance?

Kedsy
12-31-2016, 04:40 PM
One nit, I think Duke got pummeled at NC State and then pummeled at home by Miami in 14-15. In 09-10, I think the thumpings were at State and at Georgetown with POTUS in attendance?

Yeah, now that I think of it, you're right that the second thumping in 2015 was at home. That kind of makes it worse (for the 2015 team), though, doesn't it?

NashvilleDevil
12-31-2016, 04:49 PM
Yeah, now that I think of it, you're right that the second thumping in 2015 was at home. That kind of makes it worse (for the 2015 team), though, doesn't it?

Much and when I have time I will link to that post game thread because it was ugly.

Kfanarmy
12-31-2016, 05:03 PM
Missed the first half, so my impressions probably arent as bad as they might have been if I had seen the game when VT was really working hard in the first half. What I did see was another uninspired Duke effort. Players not getting back on D...that off the backboard dunk was a give up...players standing flatfooted letting VT run by them and rebound. Grayson's selfish act finally had a significant impact on the team. He needs to stay on the bench for a while. Turmoil will continue to disrupt this team's development. They havent looked good for at least 3 weeks.

Saratoga2
12-31-2016, 05:05 PM
One more thing and maybe I'm just overly sensitive following the loss, but I thought the announcers were sort of cheering VT on. One disparaging remark was made about Luke's 35 against Maine, but the other announcer then said 35 against anyone is tough to do. Today, Luke got 34 against a legitimate ACC team so he is definitely no fluke. He and Jayson will have to hold the fort until we get others to contribute more.

dukelifer
12-31-2016, 05:05 PM
Missed the first half, so my impressions probably arent as bad as they might have been if I had seen the game when VT was really working hard in the first half. What I did see was another uninspired Duke effort. Players not getting back on D...that off the backboard dunk was a give up...players standing flatfooted letting VT run by them and rebound. Grayson's selfish act finally had a significant impact on the team. He needs to stay on the bench for a while. Turmoil will continue to disrupt this team's development. They havent looked good for at least 3 weeks.

Layoff- exams- injuries- suspensions. Lots of reasons for poor play. We need to judge in two weeks when in a rhythm.

NashvilleDevil
12-31-2016, 05:14 PM
This link (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?34952-MBB-Miami-90-Duke-74-Post-Game-Thread&highlight=MBB%3A+Miami) is to the post-game thread after the Miami debacle during the 14-15 season.

Kfanarmy
12-31-2016, 05:15 PM
Layoff- exams- injuries- suspensions. Lots of reasons for poor play. We need to judge in two weeks when in a rhythm.

I understand, but I saw some lack of effort plays that are really baffling.

duke4ever19
12-31-2016, 05:23 PM
No surprise that Coach K was right -- we are about two months behind. We will get better.

So where do they make up those two months? Can they make them up?

I'm not a coach, so the only comparison I can make is in music.

If I was preparing for a big piano competition to be held March but I injured my left hand and could only practice sparingly for two of those months, I would be at a significant disadvantage, even if I knew I had more raw talent/ability/room for error over my competition. I won't press the comparison further because it breaks down quickly.

I just don't know what to make of the "two months behind" comment.

Wander
12-31-2016, 05:30 PM
For those of you who have the kenpom paywall access, the "Game Plan" is a great tool. If you click on Virginia Tech's game plan (http://kenpom.com/gameplan.php?team=Virginia+Tech), you'll learn the following:

> Duke's offensive performance was the 2nd best against Virginia Tech out of all of Virginia Tech's opponents so far. The first best was Michigan, but that game was at Michigan and obviously our game was at Virginia Tech, so arguably Duke had the best offensive performance against Virginia Tech out of all of VT's opponents so far.

> Duke's defense sucked. Our defensive performance against Virginia Tech was in line with opponents ranked in the 250 - 350 range. The power teams (also the top 100 teams) that VT has played have been Nebraska, Michigan, Ole Miss, and Texas A&M, and they all vastly exceeded Duke's defensive performance when they played VT.

So yeah, all the complaints about this game should really be focused on the defense.

mgtr
12-31-2016, 05:33 PM
I pretty much agree with you, when looked at it as an individual. But what if you are talking about an orchestra which just hasn't played together much. That can improve, and that was the sense I had in mind.

6th Man
12-31-2016, 05:38 PM
I'm hoping 2017 is going to be better to our squad. This team has been cursed it seems. While today was awful to watch, Virginia Tech played very well. Even if we played decently, I think this would have been one of those games that went down to the wire. This has to be Coach K's most difficult coaching job. Managing a lot of individual raw talent, freshmen, injuries, tripping incidents and extremely high expectations. The ceiling is probably higher than any other team in the country, but it seems we are stuck in the basement right now. The last 3 games have been pretty awful. Hopefully K is in his kitchen cooking up the right recipe to get this team back on track.

Ultrarunner
12-31-2016, 05:46 PM
For those of you who have the kenpom paywall access, the "Game Plan" is a great tool. If you click on Virginia Tech's game plan (http://kenpom.com/gameplan.php?team=Virginia+Tech), you'll learn the following:

> Duke's offensive performance was the 2nd best against Virginia Tech out of all of Virginia Tech's opponents so far. The first best was Michigan, but that game was at Michigan and obviously our game was at Virginia Tech, so arguably Duke had the best offensive performance against Virginia Tech out of all of VT's opponents so far.

> Duke's defense sucked. Our defensive performance against Virginia Tech was in line with opponents ranked in the 250 - 350 range. The power teams (also the top 100 teams) that VT has played have been Nebraska, Michigan, Ole Miss, and Texas A&M, and they all vastly exceeded Duke's defensive performance when they played VT.

So yeah, all the complaints about this game should really be focused on the defense.

And that's where we missed Grayson the most. He's been good at getting back on D and being disruptive. He also would not have blown nearly as many of the defensive rotations as the frosh.

ChillinDuke
12-31-2016, 05:51 PM
is essential in the OAD era. It helps bridge the lack of continuity with new superstars coming in for just one year and moving on.

Our seniors did not show much leadership tonight. Intensity on defense should be initiated from them. Pride should flow from them. Taking care of the little things should be promoted by them.
2015 had Quin Cook doing all those things. We need Matt and Amile (and Grayson, grouping in that category) to lead for this team to succeed.

Yeah I am definitely concerned about leadership. All year long Amile has begged for calls and complained about missed defensive rotations. I don't like it. Matt has been a rock but he needs to hit open shots to back it up. Grayson, well we all know that story.

Want to see more out of Amile and Matt to lead the team.

- Chillin

BD80
12-31-2016, 05:53 PM
So where do they make up those two months? Can they make them up?

I'm not a coach, so the only comparison I can make is in music.

If I was preparing for a big piano competition to be held March but I injured my left hand and could only practice sparingly for two of those months, I would be at a significant disadvantage, even if I knew I had more raw talent/ability/room for error over my competition. I won't press the comparison further because it breaks down quickly. ...

Stick with the right, hedge the competition so they are forced to their left. Probably slow the tempo overall, except to push the tempo on the transitions.

Play in the organization with the best competition.

Have the best coaches of all time.

Be sure to advance far enough in the competition that you can catch up on the practice time.

Papa John
12-31-2016, 07:08 PM
Yeah I am definitely concerned about leadership. All year long Amile has begged for calls and complained about missed defensive rotations. I don't like it. Matt has been a rock but he needs to hit open shots to back it up. Grayson, well we all know that story.

Want to see more out of Amile and Matt to lead the team.

- Chillin

We lack chemistry at the moment... That's the big gift I would have bestowed upon this team for the holidays (per the DBR podcast crew)... But there's still plenty of time to develop that chemistry, and we have gobs of talent and an amazing coaching staff... So I'll just sit back and enjoy the ride that this season is sure to present.

And, if all else fails, there's still that fun sword-of-Damocles situation going on down the road to enjoy... So, there is always that to fall back on...

Kjeffrey
12-31-2016, 07:42 PM
Yeah I am definitely concerned about leadership. All year long Amile has begged for calls and complained about missed defensive rotations. I don't like it. Matt has been a rock but he needs to hit open shots to back it up. Grayson, well we all know that story.

Want to see more out of Amile and Matt to lead the team.

- Chillin

I completely agree. On many occasions I have been shocked to see how Amile reacts to his teammates and the referees. I distinctly remember a few plays in the Kansas game where he got in Frank's face. None of this appears to be captain like behavior. Both he and Matt have limitations but this team needs their energy and leadership. And complaining to the refs and yelling at teammates doesn't appear to be working.

dukelifer
12-31-2016, 07:57 PM
So where do they make up those two months? Can they make them up?

I'm not a coach, so the only comparison I can make is in music.

If I was preparing for a big piano competition to be held March but I injured my left hand and could only practice sparingly for two of those months, I would be at a significant disadvantage, even if I knew I had more raw talent/ability/room for error over my competition. I won't press the comparison further because it breaks down quickly.

I just don't know what to make of the "two months behind" comment.
Duke will catch up quickly but this team has been battling injuries all year. If the team gets healthy and stays healthy and Giles rounds into form- this team will get interesting. Right now - missing Allen not only for his talent but his experience in big games is tough to overcome. Tatum has only a few games under his belt and Giles even less. I really liked what I saw from Jackson but he is now behind. Freshman take time and they need to play every game. So far that has not happened and that is very unusual.

Devilwin
12-31-2016, 08:08 PM
C'mon man, it's December! Patience...

I know, patience is a virtue, and I am very impatient. But I keep hearing, "we'll get better" , but as of yet, I don't see it..

Fish80
12-31-2016, 08:17 PM
Calm down. VT is good. And they played the game of their lives. We didn't. Kudos to them. Learn from it and move on. Next play.

And show that frogging off the backboard dunk every day for the rest of the year. Motivation my friends. Remember.

FerryFor50
12-31-2016, 08:19 PM
I know, patience is a virtue, and I am very impatient. But I keep hearing, "we'll get better" , but as of yet, I don't see it..

We saw it multiple times before the freshmen started getting added to the lineup and the long lull from exams hit.

Remember the big wins vs Rhode Island? Michigan St? Florida? And the shellacking of UNLV?

Dukehky
12-31-2016, 08:31 PM
And that's where we missed Grayson the most. He's been good at getting back on D and being disruptive. He also would not have blown nearly as many of the defensive rotations as the frosh and Matt.

Fixed it for you. No one played well on defense today, don't pin it all on the freshmen.

Ultrarunner
12-31-2016, 08:57 PM
Fixed it for you. No one played well on defense today, don't pin it all on the freshmen.

I didn't see Matt blow a whole lot of assignments. The Duke D (and please, someone, anyone, correct me if I don't have it right)(which is entirely possible) seems to be to shut down the perimeter by closing out 3-pt shooters and channeling the drivers into the middle of the D. Hence the need for fast, accurate rotations. The emphasis on the board to lock-down man seems to not acknowledge the structure of our current defensive style.

Did Matt miss many of those? I know that Tatum did on close-outs. So did Jackson. Add Giles and Bolden to that list, too, on poor rotations, though Giles visibly improved during the course of the game.

Ps. I want to point out that I am not down on the frosh. They're making normal frosh mistakes. They'll get better.

Furniture
12-31-2016, 09:01 PM
You cannot depend on Matt to produce (I know he's had some very good games, but his inconsistency has been maddening over the last couple years). He and Tyler Thornton are the same guy. K talks about Matt and Tyler in the same vein, great leaders, but when things weren't going right with Jabari and Rodney, Tyler wasn't the guy to get a result. I don't mean that to be a bash on Jones, but that's just not what kind of player he is (we saw that today with some ill advised drives). I just don't think we should really expect too much of Matt on offense at this point, and we really do need him to be better on defense.

i really like Matt. I also think that he is better than Tyler was (imho). Am feeling for him at the moment though.

Dukehky
12-31-2016, 09:07 PM
I didn't see Matt blow a whole lot of assignments. The Duke D (and please, someone, anyone, correct me if I don't have it right)(which is entirely possible) seems to be to shut down the perimeter by closing out 3-pt shooters and channeling the drivers into the middle of the D. Hence the need for fast, accurate rotations. The emphasis on the board to lock-down man seems to not acknowledge the structure of our current defensive style.

Did Matt miss many of those? I know that Tatum did on close-outs. So did Jackson. Add Giles and Bolden to that list, too, on poor rotations, though Giles visibly improved during the course of the game.


Matt made several defensive mistakes today. He lost folks off the ball a few times, and was actually pretty poor in communication, he ran into Frank a few times when Frank could just stay on his man. He is not some kind of defensive wizard that is immune from the criticisms that people are so comfortable making of the freshmen.

Offensively, VT did not give Matt a second thought. They hid a big on him the entire second half The spacing is bad enough with Grayson off the floor because Frank and Jayson are not especially effective shooters from 3 as is, and if Matt isn't going to be a threat, we can't play 4 on 5. I think we can all agree the Matt Jones drives are not the answer offensively.

When Matt is playing well, he can be a super important part of any team because he usually is a very smart defender even if he's not the most physically gifted. When he's shooting well, he is so dangerous because he's the guy you have to leave open. Right now, I'm sure he would be the first to say that he's not playing well, and I'm he's sure he wishes he's played better lately. But Amile and Luke are the only two who have been consistent in doing their jobs.
I actually thought Jayson had a really poor second half even though he made some good shots. When we would creep back to 11-12, he made 3 really bad pass attempts that became live ball turnovers and fast break buckets.

uh_no
12-31-2016, 09:24 PM
he ran into Frank a few times when Frank could just stay on his man. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the mistake was frank's....A guy that has been arond for 4 years, starting for 3, started for a national title game, has the full confidence of coach K, was called by another HOF coach "the best 2 point performance I've ever seen," and who is widely regarded as a pretty good defender doesn't simply "run into" other guys, especially when the other guy is a freshman who is having a huge amount of difficulty on defense.

Far more likely, I'd guess, is Frank was supposed to do something else in that situation, Matt assumed he would do what he was supposed to, and he didn't. Now, I agree, there should probably be some communication there, but communication only goes so far. At some point, people have to know what they're supposed to do, and in this case, I'd put a lot more money on it being Frank than Matt.


I actually thought Jayson had a really poor second half even though he made some good shots. When we would creep back to 11-12, he made 3 really bad pass attempts that became live ball turnovers and fast break buckets.

Fully agree...we get reminders that he's a freshman throughout the game. These particular turnovers will be addressed, I'm sure, and will be helped when grayson is back and can distribute a bit more. Those passes are the kind of thing you can get away with in HS, but not against well executed college defenses (which sounds REALLY weird to say about VT....)

Duke1988
12-31-2016, 09:53 PM
Back in August or so, when I first looked at our schedule for this year, one of the first things that I noticed is that we did not have our typical one or two "tune-up" games after the Christmas break and before the beginning of ACC play. IIRC, we always schedule such games circa Dec. 28/29/30, with the last coming about two days prior to the ACC opener. Why did we not do so this year? Not saying that we would have won today if we had...Hokies played great...but I have to think that we would have worked out some of the kinks and been more "ready for prime time" than what I saw today. Thoughts/insights on the scheduling???

Furniture
12-31-2016, 09:54 PM
“It’s a horrible feeling…. We missed our heart. We missed a lot of things tonight. We missed Duke"—Jefferson

Hopefully we can look back at this thread and laugh. Almost as dissapointing as the loss is some people's reaction to it. I mean, one person in the Chat actually said that he 'hated' this team. To me that's not being a supporter. A true supporter supports through thick and thin.

jv001
12-31-2016, 10:58 PM
I agree, although the guy under the basket isn't the one most responsible for allowing transition baskets. It is the other guys on the floor that have to get back first. Our perimeter guys did a terrible job of preventing transition baskets.

I agree about our perimeter guys that were slow to get back. I rewatched some of those fast breaks in slo-mo and it was our guards that was not getting back. GoDuke!

lotusland
12-31-2016, 11:12 PM
I was going to watch a replay of the game but I saw the UNV vs GT game right there in the Watch ESPN queue so I chose it instead. I highly recommend it. I feel much better about Duke. Going to bed smiling now.

Neals384
12-31-2016, 11:21 PM
I was going to watch a replay of the game but I saw the UNV vs GT game right there in the Watch ESPN queue so I chose it instead. I highly recommend it. I feel much better about Duke. Going to bed smiling now.

hey, lotusland, stay up another 39 minutes and you can ring in the new year!

hallcity
12-31-2016, 11:21 PM
Giles has a long way to go but I think it's worth noting that he played 13 minutes and had 8 rebounds.

jv001
12-31-2016, 11:31 PM
After re-watching parts of the game, it was clear that we were not communicating/talking on defense. There were times our guys were confused in defending the pick and roll. Another problem was our inability to close out on their three point shots. At times we got caught standing and watching. I'm sure most of this comes from trying to get Giles, Bolden and Tatum up to par in our practice sessions. It's going to take time and us Duke fans are just going to have to live with that. I will say this, I believe we missed our heart and soul that was sitting on the bench. I know he needed to be disciplined but we need him back. He's our "Charlie Hustle" in basketball shorts and the best we have at drive and kick. The game today showed that. We'll have to bring it to beat a GT team that will come in with confidence. GoDuke!

duketaylor
12-31-2016, 11:45 PM
Blocking out is a lost skill/art. Plus, the D was simply porous, couldn't stop the ball on drives. Duke played lots of zone which was very ineffective.

Stop the ball and force teams into a longer possession. Should never give up 80+points. Just because we have a bad shooting game doesn't mean we should lose or get crushed. Good defense answers that. Our D was awful.

mr. synellinden
01-01-2017, 01:00 AM
I completely agree. On many occasions I have been shocked to see how Amile reacts to his teammates and the referees. I distinctly remember a few plays in the Kansas game where he got in Frank's face. None of this appears to be captain like behavior. Both he and Matt have limitations but this team needs their energy and leadership. And complaining to the refs and yelling at teammates doesn't appear to be working.

Yeah, on the telecast you could see him admonish Luke for not passing the ball into him on the post earlier on one possession. It looked like Luke hesitated and waited for Amile to get better position before passing it to him. And then Amile committed an offensive foul. Amile'a reaction, facial expression and body language were terrible in that moment and not very captain-y or leadership-y.

On a separate note, Luke had one of the best offensive games I've ever seen from a Duke player. He scored in so many different ways with both hands and just showed an array of offensive skills that I can't remember seeing before. It was a mix of Danny Ferry, Thomas Hill, Jon Scheyer and Nolan Smith. It was just incredible to watch. Even after the game was decided I was excited just watching him play on offense.

uh_no
01-01-2017, 01:04 AM
Yeah, on the telecast you could see him admonish Luke for not passing the ball into him on the post earlier on one possession. It looked like Luke hesitated and waited for Amile to get better position before passing it to him. And then Amile committed an offensive foul. Amile'a reaction, facial expression and body language were terrible in that moment and not very captain-y or leadership-y.


So are you suggesting Amile really "Dropped the Ball" today?

To be fair...not as much as Mariah Carey....

dukelifer
01-01-2017, 01:16 AM
So are you suggesting Amile really "Dropped the Ball" today?

To be fair...not as much as Mariah Carey...

or Ohio State

lotusland
01-01-2017, 08:43 AM
Blocking out is a lost skill/art. Plus, the D was simply porous, couldn't stop the ball on drives. Duke played lots of zone which was very ineffective.

Stop the ball and force teams into a longer possession. Should never give up 80+points. Just because we have a bad shooting game doesn't mean we should lose or get crushed. Good defense answers that. Our D was awful.

Watching the UNC v GT I paid special attention to Lammers. He blocks out, rebounds, blocks shots and passes very "instinctively". I don't know that it is actually instictive though. More likely learned through repetition and muscle memory. He moves into position when the shot goes up, not just to a spot but to put his body on someone. A couple of times he actually positioned himself against one person but switched to another big who came into the lane while the ball was in the air. Watching Lammers the game seems to slow down. Or maybe that was just the heels that slowed the game down:). Playing GT is going to be like VT without the 3 pt shooting. They are very thin playing a 6 1/2 rotation but they run and attack the basket. Yet players were visibly winded at times but still did not come out. They pass well, especially Lammers from the high post. If ever there were a game to play some zone or pack it in this is it. They just don't take a lot of 3s.

slower
01-01-2017, 08:53 AM
Grayson's selfish act finally had a significant impact on the team. He needs to stay on the bench for a while.

STOP blaming this crap on Grayson. Enough already. The team, without him, should have beaten VT. THEIR lackluster effort is not HIS fault.

flyingdutchdevil
01-01-2017, 09:04 AM
STOP blaming this crap on Grayson. Enough already. The team, without him, should have beaten VT. THEIR lackluster effort is not HIS fault.

Wholeheartedly agreed. Although I do put plenty of blame on the coaching staff for the effort and readiness during the last three games.

This is clearly not a team where you can 'roll the ball out and watch them play' ala 2015.

Troublemaker
01-01-2017, 09:14 AM
Wholeheartedly agreed. Although I do put plenty of blame on the coaching staff for the effort and readiness during the last three games.

Eh, I guess. I see it more as we're in a vulnerable part of the season in which our preseason NPOY is sitting and we're integrating some previously injured players, who happen to also be freshmen and new to college ball. So some struggles are to be expected. If the team doesn't improve and come together by March, then I might start looking at the coaches.



This is clearly not a team where you can 'roll the ball out and watch them play' ala 2015.

2015 was NOT such a team, either. You're not remembering the struggles and the tinkering that went on with that team until everything clicked into place late in the season. Besides, I'm not sure what "roll the ball out" means anyway. Just because a team is talented doesn't mean you can get away with not having a system in place for them.

BD80
01-01-2017, 09:54 AM
STOP blaming this crap on Grayson. Enough already. The team, without him, should have beaten VT. THEIR lackluster effort is not HIS fault.

What about the deaths of Carrie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds on consecutive days right after Grayson's heinous terrorist attack on domestic soil?

FerryFor50
01-01-2017, 10:08 AM
What about the deaths of Carrie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds on consecutive days right after Grayson's heinous terrorist attack on domestic soil?

Obviously the work of the illuminati

slower
01-01-2017, 10:13 AM
What about the deaths of Carrie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds on consecutive days right after Grayson's heinous terrorist attack on domestic soil?

Yes, in light of Grayson's actions, they'll probably be reopening the coroner's inquiry into Prince and David Bowie. At this point, no act of click-bait stupidity would surprise me.

Sure, his actions were his actions, but Grayson was set up for "Duke hate" even before day one.

I hope we win the natty in a blowout over the Holes - and I want Grayson to steal the ball from Seventh Woods with seconds remaining, power down a tomahawk dunk and do one-handed pull-ups on the rim while flipping off the camera. This is my dream. :p

Seriously, though - screw the haters, now more than ever.

Dukebasketball2020
01-01-2017, 10:47 AM
After watching yesterday's game and the last 2 that we struggled in I have noticed a few things. The two games prior to this Tatum was forcing was to many shots that weren't high quality shots. Seems like guys were playing 1 on 1 instead of driving and kicking to make the extra pass. I haven't seen us have a trip down the floor the last 3 games where we would see 2 or 3 passes on the outside before a guy got an open 3. Also the assists per game are way down the last 3 games. Yesterday I noticed Matt Jones driving and throwing up horrible shots once or twice. I'm sorry but he has no business shooting the ball especially when you have tatum and kennard on the floor at the same time. Everyone also talks about Jones defense he was getting beat bad at times yesterday but did have a few good steals. The defense in particular is just awful. I'm not quite sure how a guy can drive in the lane that's 6'1 and score on a 6'11 Chase Jeter or Bolden underneath? As I see it there is no way in hell Grayson leaves after this year, his draft stock is way down and many experts don't have him even getting taken in this year's draft same thing with Jackson. Jackson, Allen and Bolden should all come back another year. Bolden needs to lose put on muscle and slim down some and get more conditioned he seems out of shape, also he doesn't seem strong with the ball or post moves. Kennard may be gone after this year if he keeps it up.

Neals384
01-01-2017, 10:55 AM
What about the deaths of Carrie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds on consecutive days right after Grayson's heinous terrorist attack on domestic soil?

Going further OT, does this really mean what I think it means?

"Carrie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds Will Be Buried Together"

Kedsy
01-01-2017, 12:19 PM
This is clearly not a team where you can 'roll the ball out and watch them play' ala 2015.

You mean the 2014-15 team that:

beat Elon by just 11, at home;
gave up 87 points in a double-digit loss to a so-so NC State team;
gave up 90 points in a 16-point beatdown at home to a middle-of-the-pack Miami team;
won by only 9 against a so-so St. John's steam;
won by only 6 at home against a really bad (3-15; 12-19) Georgia Tech team;
won by only 3 against a mediocre Florida State team;
went to OT against a last-place Virginia Tech team (2-16; 11-22);

That "roll the ball out and watch them play" team?

Kedsy
01-01-2017, 12:39 PM
The two games prior to this Tatum was forcing was to many shots that weren't high quality shots.

This was true in the Tennessee State and Elon games. Jayson was better in this regard against Virginia Tech.


Yesterday I noticed Matt Jones driving and throwing up horrible shots once or twice.

Matt took two layups in the game, making one of them after what I thought was a very nice drive. He took two two-point jumpers and made one. His points per shot on his two-point attempts was better than Jayson's points per shot on his two-point attempts.


Also the assists per game are way down the last 3 games. ... I'm sorry but [Matt] has no business shooting the ball especially when you have tatum and kennard on the floor at the same time.

You're being inconsistent. If only two people should take all the shots, then assists will almost necessarily be down.

Also, of Duke players who have taken more than 10 shots, Jayson Tatum has the worst eFG% on the team (yes, worse than Matt's). I'm not sure why you think Jayson should be taking all the shots.


Seems like guys were playing 1 on 1 instead of driving and kicking to make the extra pass. I haven't seen us have a trip down the floor the last 3 games where we would see 2 or 3 passes on the outside before a guy got an open 3.

Well, all four of Matt's three-point attempts were either drive-and-kick or outside-passes-for-an-open-three. He was wide open on all of them (though on one he made a nice head fake as a guy lunged at him and actually took the shot after a dribble to the side). He just didn't happen to hit them.


The defense in particular is just awful.

The defense was awful against Virginia Tech. For the season, which has consisted of more than one game, it's actually been pretty good.


I'm not quite sure how a guy can drive in the lane that's 6'1 and score on a 6'11 Chase Jeter or Bolden underneath?

Allen Iverson made a living doing that sort of thing. Small guards drive and score on big players all the time in basketball. That's why it's generally not a good idea to ask 6'11 players to defend small, quick guards.

Duke76
01-01-2017, 12:41 PM
After watching yesterday's game and the last 2 that we struggled in I have noticed a few things. The two games prior to this Tatum was forcing was to many shots that weren't high quality shots. Seems like guys were playing 1 on 1 instead of driving and kicking to make the extra pass. I haven't seen us have a trip down the floor the last 3 games where we would see 2 or 3 passes on the outside before a guy got an open 3. Also the assists per game are way down the last 3 games. Yesterday I noticed Matt Jones driving and throwing up horrible shots once or twice. I'm sorry but he has no business shooting the ball especially when you have tatum and kennard on the floor at the same time. Everyone also talks about Jones defense he was getting beat bad at times yesterday but did have a few good steals. The defense in particular is just awful. I'm not quite sure how a guy can drive in the lane that's 6'1 and score on a 6'11 Chase Jeter or Bolden underneath? As I see it there is no way in hell Grayson leaves after this year, his draft stock is way down and many experts don't have him even getting taken in this year's draft same thing with Jackson. Jackson, Allen and Bolden should all come back another year. Bolden needs to lose put on muscle and slim down some and get more conditioned he seems out of shape, also he doesn't seem strong with the ball or post moves. Kennard may be gone after this year if he keeps it up.

I'd make the guys go back and watch the Las Vegas game...that was the best game we have played all year, where we distributed the ball well, were unselfish, ran a lot of great set plays that looked innovative and confusing therefor to the defense...wish he would call that double high post play more often...

anyway the way I see it the guys were really slow footed yesterday. learn how to move your feet on defense and stop the ball from turning the corner on drives

to me those drives had to be more demoralizing to us than VT hitting 3's

funny how it always gets back to the basics in basketball

K could definitely say "we are lost in that amusement park, again"

Indoor66
01-01-2017, 12:46 PM
funny how it always gets back to the basics in basketball

...and in life. Practice forgiveness. Days get better that way.:D:cool:

dukelifer
01-01-2017, 01:20 PM
You mean the 2014-15 team that:

beat Elon by just 11, at home;
gave up 87 points in a double-digit loss to a so-so NC State team;
gave up 90 points in a 16-point beatdown at home to a middle-of-the-pack Miami team;
won by only 9 against a so-so St. John's steam;
won by only 6 at home against a really bad (3-15; 12-19) Georgia Tech team;
won by only 3 against a mediocre Florida State team;
went to OT against a last-place Virginia Tech team (2-16; 11-22);

That "roll the ball out and watch them play" team?
Wait- my memory is that they won every game by 20- don't ruin it with facts.

moonpie23
01-01-2017, 01:22 PM
I hope we win the natty in a blowout over the Holes - and I want Grayson to steal the ball from Seventh Woods with seconds remaining, power down a tomahawk dunk and do one-handed pull-ups on the rim while flipping off the camera. This is my dream. :p


you and i could go to dinner some time.....

slower
01-01-2017, 02:53 PM
you and i could go to dinner some time....

Does this mean that you share my dream? Or at least accept it as laudable? :p

Kfanarmy
01-01-2017, 03:09 PM
STOP blaming this crap on Grayson. Enough already. The team, without him, should have beaten VT. THEIR lackluster effort is not HIS fault.

Whole heartedly agree that their lackluster play is not his fault, but if anyone thinks his absence on defense and losing his ability on offense don't impact the team, then they should be arguing for him to sit for performance reasons anyway. You can't have it both ways. It is simply an emotional argument without any logical basis to argue that a starter, an upperclassman, who is averaging 16 points and provides energy to the team, being benched for on-court behavior doesn't have an impact.

Supporting that behavior just because he wears the uniform is extremely counter productive and would encourage more of the same if you had the ear of the staff.

slower
01-01-2017, 03:23 PM
Whole heartedly agree that their lackluster play is not his fault, but if anyone thinks his absence on defense and losing his ability on offense don't impact the team, then they should be arguing for him to sit for performance reasons anyway. You can't have it both ways. It is simply an emotional argument without any logical basis to argue that a starter, an upperclassman, who is averaging 16 points and provides energy to the team, being benched for on-court behavior doesn't have an impact.

Supporting that behavior just because he wears the uniform is extremely counter productive and would encourage more of the same if you had the ear of the staff.

I didn't SAY that it had no impact, just that they SHOULD have been able to beat VT without him.

And I ALSO didn't say that I "supported" his behavior. He did what he did and now he's paying for it. What I've said, in several threads, is that the "Duke hate" for Grayson began before he ever played a single game. The response to what he has done is so far out of proportion that I find it infuriating.

Stick to my actual comments next time.

Kfanarmy
01-01-2017, 03:59 PM
I didn't SAY that it had no impact, just that they SHOULD have been able to beat VT without him.

And I ALSO didn't say that I "supported" his behavior. He did what he did and now he's paying for it. What I've said, in several threads, is that the "Duke hate" for Grayson began before he ever played a single game. The response to what he has done is so far out of proportion that I find it infuriating.

Stick to my actual comments next time.

Your actual comment: STOP blaming this crap on Grayson, was in response to my comment that his actions finally impacted the team.

slower
01-01-2017, 04:29 PM
Your actual comment: STOP blaming this crap on Grayson, was in response to my comment that his actions finally impacted the team.
One of my resolutions for this year is to not engage in as many circular, fruitless arguments as last year.

So...bygones and Happy New Year! :p

moonpie23
01-01-2017, 05:48 PM
Does this mean that you share my dream? Or at least accept it as laudable? :p

i think it's an excellent start

slower
01-01-2017, 06:18 PM
i think it's an excellent start

Louie - err, Moonpie - I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

elvis14
01-02-2017, 12:22 AM
Thoughts on yesterday's debacle:



Really disappointing game
Thank goodness Clemson beat the #%@$# out of 0hi0 State
Thank goodness GT beat UNCheat
This should be the end of the silly 'suspend Grayson' business
We are not a good team right now (and I say that not just because of the VT debacle but because of the last 3 games)
I hope we can get better quickly (thinking about how guys have not been able to practice). I'm confident we will but right now...yuck
What do you do with a 3 and D guy who can't hit the 3? Tough question, I suspect the answer isn't give him 30+ minutes of playing time
I hope VT turns out to be better than I think they are...
As others have mentioned...if we are going to lose (or play pretty badly against overmatched teams), throw Giles/Bolden out there for a bunch of minutes
Our help defense was terrible and when we switch on every screen teams just screen with whoever they want to get a favorable matchup for and work it
If K's defense is hard of people to figure out and if we are going to play a bunch of freshman each year, could it be time to change how we play defense?
Anyone else think there were a bunch of times where we should have made an entry pass into the post and just didn't do it?
Really hope to see improvement Wed night


I waited 24 hours to post because I wanted to calm down and not be overly negative. I think I failed (well, I'm calm), sorry about that.

Indoor66
01-02-2017, 06:36 AM
Thoughts on yesterday's debacle:



Really disappointing game
Thank goodness Clemson beat the #%@$# out of 0hi0 State
Thank goodness GT beat UNCheat
This should be the end of the silly 'suspend Grayson' business
We are not a good team right now (and I say that not just because of the VT debacle but because of the last 3 games)
I hope we can get better quickly (thinking about how guys have not been able to practice). I'm confident we will but right now...yuck
What do you do with a 3 and D guy who can't hit the 3? Tough question, I suspect the answer isn't give him 30+ minutes of playing time
I hope VT turns out to be better than I think they are...
As others have mentioned...if we are going to lose (or play pretty badly against overmatched teams), throw Giles/Bolden out there for a bunch of minutes
Our help defense was terrible and when we switch on every screen teams just screen with whoever they want to get a favorable matchup for and work it
If K's defense is hard of people to figure out and if we are going to play a bunch of freshman each year, could it be time to change how we play defense?
Anyone else think there were a bunch of times where we should have made an entry pass into the post and just didn't do it?
Really hope to see improvement Wed night


I waited 24 hours to post because I wanted to calm down and not be overly negative. I think I failed (well, I'm calm), sorry about that.

Maybe you should have waited a little longer if you were trying to deal with your declared concern about negativity.

NashvilleDevil
01-02-2017, 09:13 AM
I linked to the Miami post game thread from the 14-15 season and now here is the link (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?19168-MBB-Georgetown-89-Duke-77-Post-Game-Thread&highlight=Georgetown) to the Georgetown post game thread from 09-10. Enjoy.

Troublemaker
01-02-2017, 09:57 AM
Maybe you should have waited a little longer if you were trying to deal with your declared concern about negativity.

Elvis14's post was fine. He provided his analysis of the game, and since Duke played poorly in this one, much of the analysis will be critical.

I do strongly disagree with a couple of the bullet points, but disagreement happens on message boards.

Troublemaker
01-02-2017, 11:15 AM
Duke's worst problem in this game was transition defense. There are so many examples to choose from but I chose this one because it may have been THE very worst transition D play from the game, and it encapsulates a couple of other problems, too.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MerryUntriedAlbino-size_restricted.gif

Poor offensive spacing can affect transition D. Jayson has mostly been playing the 4 until recently, and when he plays the 3 like in this play, he needs to get used to having a perimeter player's responsibilities. When Matt cuts to the corner there, Jayson needs to balance the floor by cutting towards the top of the key and become, along with Luke, one of the two guys most responsible for getting back. We don't need both Harry and Jason going for the offensive rebound from the same area (opposite block from Amile's postup). We need Jayson to balance the floor, and then he'd be in much better position to stop his man in transition when the shot misses. As is, we ended up with 4 players near the baseline when the shot goes up.

Troublemaker
01-02-2017, 11:33 AM
Here's another contender for THE worst transition D play from the game. I'm going to stop after this. Just know there are so many examples to choose from. First, that's a horrible drive from Matt, with a low-percentage fade at the end, although he might argue for a blocking foul on his defender. Second, why is Jayson going for the offensive rebound here? As the guy at the top, his primary responsibility is to get back! For his part, maybe Frank could've started running sooner also instead of ball-watching.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ThatMeekAmazontreeboa-size_restricted.gif

DukieInBrasil
01-02-2017, 12:31 PM
Here's another contender for THE worst transition D play from the game. I'm going to stop after this. Just know there are so many examples to choose from. First, that's a horrible drive from Matt, with a low-percentage fade at the end, although he might argue for a blocking foul on his defender. Second, why is Jayson going for the offensive rebound here? As the guy at the top, his primary responsibility is to get back! For his part, maybe Frank could've started running sooner also instead of ball-watching.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ThatMeekAmazontreeboa-size_restricted.gif

Both of those plays show that Tatum did a pretty terrible job on transition D. He put absolutely zero energy towards either offensive rebounding or getting back on D. He was completely asleep on both, and i hope the video staff points that out to him.

jv001
01-02-2017, 01:03 PM
Duke's worst problem in this game was transition defense. There are so many examples to choose from but I chose this one because it may have been THE very worst transition D play from the game, and it encapsulates a couple of other problems, too.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MerryUntriedAlbino-size_restricted.gif

Poor offensive spacing can affect transition D. Jayson has mostly been playing the 4 until recently, and when he plays the 3 like in this play, he needs to get used to having a perimeter player's responsibilities. When Matt cuts to the corner there, Jayson needs to balance the floor by cutting towards the top of the key and become, along with Luke, one of the two guys most responsible for getting back. We don't need both Harry and Jason going for the offensive rebound from the same area (opposite block from Amile's postup). We need Jayson to balance the floor, and then he'd be in much better position to stop his man in transition when the shot misses. As is, we ended up with 4 players near the baseline when the shot goes up.

You have shown to more about college basketball than I'll ever know. So, I ask this question: in the video I see Matt coming down the lane while Amile is trying to post up his man. That would seem to do two things, both bad. 1) it further clogs up the lane. 2) Matt should be getting back on D if Amile's shot doesn't go in. On the 2nd video you posted in another thread, look at Jayson just walking into the lane, I guess for the offensive rebound. Like you said in the 2nd post, he should be getting back on D. In some of the action that I re-watched, there were many times our players were just trotting rather than moving quickly. Moving without the ball is supposed to be to get open. My grandma(if she were alive) could have guarded our players. We just didn't want the game as much as VT did. It looks like this team needs some tough love right now. Especially with our GOAT getting ready to miss a month at least. GoDuke!

Troublemaker
01-02-2017, 02:03 PM
You have shown to more about college basketball than I'll ever know. So, I ask this question: in the video I see Matt coming down the lane while Amile is trying to post up his man. That would seem to do two things, both bad. 1) it further clogs up the lane. 2) Matt should be getting back on D if Amile's shot doesn't go in. On the 2nd video you posted in another thread, look at Jayson just walking into the lane, I guess for the offensive rebound. Like you said in the 2nd post, he should be getting back on D. In some of the action that I re-watched, there were many times our players were just trotting rather than moving quickly. Moving without the ball is supposed to be to get open. My grandma(if she were alive) could have guarded our players. We just didn't want the game as much as VT did. It looks like this team needs some tough love right now. Especially with our GOAT getting ready to miss a month at least. GoDuke!

Thanks for the kind words. I'm not a huge fan of Matt's cut -- with two bigs in the game, it might be best if perimeter players become standstill shooters on a postup, although some coaches would still insist on off-ball movement regardless -- but the cut goes from "meh" to "disaster" when Jayson doesn't replace Matt up top. That's where lack of familiarity with each other comes in. Jayson is thinking "offensive rebound" and Matt is thinking "off ball movement," and they need to be on the same page. When Jayson sees Matt cut in front of him, though, he definitely needs to cut out past the 3-pt line and replace him. That's basic spacing/floor balance fundamentals.

CDu
01-02-2017, 02:18 PM
Thanks for the kind words. I'm not a huge fan of Matt's cut -- with two bigs in the game, it might be best if perimeter players become standstill shooters on a postup, although some coaches would still insist on off-ball movement regardless -- but the cut goes from "meh" to "disaster" when Jayson doesn't replace Matt up top. That's where lack of familiarity with each other comes in. Jayson is thinking "offensive rebound" and Matt is thinking "off ball movement," and they need to be on the same page. When Jayson sees Matt cut in front of him, though, he definitely needs to cut out past the 3-pt line and replace him. That's basic spacing/floor balance fundamentals.

It is important to note the challenges being faced here. In that clip, we see Giles and Tatum on the floor. That is a guy playing in just his third game, and another freshman in just his sixth game (and perhaps his first playing major minutes at the 3). That is 40% of the lineup trying to figure things out.

There are two things I don't like on this play, aside from the obvious.

1. Tatum, Giles, and Jefferson all along the baseline. That is begging for a fast break.
2. Tatum basically playing the same role as Giles, as the off-side lurker. As the 3 man, Tatum should be working like Jones and Kennard on the perimeter.

Jones makes a bad decision to cut there, because neither Tatum nor Giles are doing anything but ball-watching. That means he cuts right into a crowd. But at least he was attempting to be useful. The real issue is that Giles and Tatum are contributing absolutely nothing to the offense here. They aren't cuttin, they aren't screening for cutters, and they aren't positioned to threaten as a potential pass recipient. That is 40% of the offense stagnant, useless, and in horrible position to defend in transition.

And then the two compound their mistakes by not hustling back.

Freshman mistakes.

Papa John
01-02-2017, 02:36 PM
It is important to note the challenges being faced here. In that clip, we see Giles and Tatum on the floor. That is a guy playing in just his third game, and another freshman in just his sixth game (and perhaps his first playing major minutes at the 3). That is 40% of the lineup trying to figure things out.

There are two things I don't like on this play, aside from the obvious.

1. Tatum, Giles, and Jefferson all along the baseline. That is begging for a fast break.
2. Tatum basically playing the same role as Giles, as the off-side lurker. As the 3 man, Tatum should be working like Jones and Kennard on the perimeter.

Jones makes a bad decision to cut there, because neither Tatum nor Giles are doing anything but ball-watching. That means he cuts right into a crowd. But at least he was attempting to be useful. The real issue is that Giles and Tatum are contributing absolutely nothing to the offense here. They aren't cuttin, they aren't screening for cutters, and they aren't positioned to threaten as a potential pass recipient. That is 40% of the offense stagnant, useless, and in horrible position to defend in transition.

And then the two compound their mistakes by not hustling back.

Freshman mistakes.

Excellent analysis, CDu... I found myself getting a bit frustrated watching the frosh, particularly Tatum, during the game. Tatum did a much better job on offense than in previous games of not being an offensive cul-de-sac, but his defense was, on the whole, pretty atrocious. He was constantly out of position and often among the guiltiest parties when we were caught with our pants around our ankles on transition D. Chalk it up to them being frosh and the long holiday layoff... They'll come along. There's plenty of talent—they just need to develop better overall chemistry...

superdave
01-02-2017, 02:48 PM
It is important to note the challenges being faced here. In that clip, we see Giles and Tatum on the floor. That is a guy playing in just his third game, and another freshman in just his sixth game (and perhaps his first playing major minutes at the 3). That is 40% of the lineup trying to figure things out.

There are two things I don't like on this play, aside from the obvious.

1. Tatum, Giles, and Jefferson all along the baseline. That is begging for a fast break.
2. Tatum basically playing the same role as Giles, as the off-side lurker. As the 3 man, Tatum should be working like Jones and Kennard on the perimeter.

Jones makes a bad decision to cut there, because neither Tatum nor Giles are doing anything but ball-watching. That means he cuts right into a crowd. But at least he was attempting to be useful. The real issue is that Giles and Tatum are contributing absolutely nothing to the offense here. They aren't cuttin, they aren't screening for cutters, and they aren't positioned to threaten as a potential pass recipient. That is 40% of the offense stagnant, useless, and in horrible position to defend in transition.

And then the two compound their mistakes by not hustling back.

Freshman mistakes.


To be fair, our entire offense for the game consisted of one guy trying to make a play and everyone else watching. It was all one on one moves, no ball movement. I think it is often referred to as the clogged toilet offense. It is fixable though. Our guys need court time together.

The defense was ugly, particularly transition defense. The symptoms were lack of hustle, helping and pride. I thought Coach K might have set up a press earlier, or thrown some curveballs out there. But he seemed resigned to let this team suffer an ugly road loss and hopefully grow from it.

I think it was uh no who said earlier this team is running out of time. I disagree. It is January. But we do have a lot of moving pieces - now the coaching piece too. I expect things to get worse before they get better. But this group probably has their eyes open to the difficult task ahead after losing this game. I think that is a good thing.

NSDukeFan
01-02-2017, 03:44 PM
It is important to note the challenges being faced here. In that clip, we see Giles and Tatum on the floor. That is a guy playing in just his third game, and another freshman in just his sixth game (and perhaps his first playing major minutes at the 3). That is 40% of the lineup trying to figure things out.

There are two things I don't like on this play, aside from the obvious.

1. Tatum, Giles, and Jefferson all along the baseline. That is begging for a fast break.
2. Tatum basically playing the same role as Giles, as the off-side lurker. As the 3 man, Tatum should be working like Jones and Kennard on the perimeter.

Jones makes a bad decision to cut there, because neither Tatum nor Giles are doing anything but ball-watching. That means he cuts right into a crowd. But at least he was attempting to be useful. The real issue is that Giles and Tatum are contributing absolutely nothing to the offense here. They aren't cuttin, they aren't screening for cutters, and they aren't positioned to threaten as a potential pass recipient. That is 40% of the offense stagnant, useless, and in horrible position to defend in transition.

And then the two compound their mistakes by not hustling back.

Freshman mistakes.
Nice analysis from you and Troublemaker. To Virginia Tech's credit, in both clips they did a great job of getting in transition quickly. Fantastic fast breaks from them. Hopefully, we will see some of that from the Duke side during the rest of this phase.

BD80
01-02-2017, 05:28 PM
... To Virginia Tech's credit, in both clips they did a great job of getting in transition quickly. Fantastic fast breaks from them. ...

Well, they had little fear of being tripped ...

Utley
01-02-2017, 05:56 PM
Here's another contender for THE worst transition D play from the game. I'm going to stop after this. Just know there are so many examples to choose from. First, that's a horrible drive from Matt, with a low-percentage fade at the end, although he might argue for a blocking foul on his defender. Second, why is Jayson going for the offensive rebound here? As the guy at the top, his primary responsibility is to get back! For his part, maybe Frank could've started running sooner also instead of ball-watching.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ThatMeekAmazontreeboa-size_restricted.gif

Can't spork you but wanted to thank you for taking the time to put this together and share. It provides some great specific color to this play but also shows where the team is along the learning curve.

NSDukeFan
01-02-2017, 06:38 PM
Well, they had little fear of being tripped ...

True enough. Great response.

Bay Area Duke Fan
01-03-2017, 11:51 AM
When were Duke players told about K's Leave of absence?

I wonder if they were told before VT game? It may have affected performance.

Ichabod Drain
01-03-2017, 11:56 AM
When were Duke players told about K's Leave of absence?

I wonder if they were told before VT game? It may have affected performance.

Believe I read that they were told Sunday.