This week in the ACC (Dec. 29-31)

[Olympic Fan]

Didn't see the thread for this week, but there wasn't much to talk about until tonight.

Huge game in Louisville with the Cavs holding an early lead on the Cards, Still a long way to go in that one.

The first ACC game of the season is over -- shades of last year ... Wake Forest is up 66-61 at Florida State late, but the Seminoles score 17 straight points and win going away.

A bunch of fairly meaningless games tonight -- the ACC teams all seem to be winning, but none of them (beyond Louisville-Virginia and the completed FSU-Wake game) mean much of anything.

Not much going on Thursday or Friday, but a HUGE lineup Saturday.

[CDu]

Louisville getting spanked by UVa right now.

[Troublemaker]

UVA up 52-33 at the under 12 timeout. Big statement game from the Hoos that they are, once again, major ACC contenders. They've also really owned Louisville since the Cardinals joined the ACC. I just think Lville playing two bigs together without any stretch ability whatsoever -- not even 15-foot range -- makes it so hard to score against the Pack Line. The Cards can't get stuff inside, and their perimeter doesn't shoot the ball well. That's how you score only 21 points in a half.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

UVa is the real deal. Bennett is one helluva coach.

[Wahoo2000]

UVa is the real deal. Bennett is one helluva coach.

I'm probably more shocked than anyone by this result (despite it starting to seem like we're just a stylistic matchup nightmare for Pitino). We're not exactly "stocked" with top shelf talent, and lost a preseason all american after 2 games. How in the world Bennett does this is just beyond me. As soon as Nichols was lost, I REALLY thought our absolute best case scenario would be to be a fringe top 20 team and maybe win 11 or 12 ACC games. Now that could still end up being the case for sure, but through 12 games..... this edition of my Hoos is WAAAAY better than I expected.

....Now watch us choke at home VS FSU on Saturday. ;-)

[PackMan97]

State rolled Rider 99-71.

Now that we are playing at full strength we seem to be playing MUCH better the last few games after Yurtseven became eligible and Rowan came back from a concussion. We were three points away from three different players having double doubles.

Abdul-Mallik Abu has 12 boards, 12 points
Dennis Smith, Jr had 19 points and 16 assists
Ted Kapita had 11 boards but only 7 points.

Since scrapping by Tennessee State in over time (though we did beat them by one more point than Duke ;) ), State has won 97-64, 99-78, 89-57, and 99-71.

Next up is at Miami on new years eve.

[DukieTiger]

Surprised there was no mention of Clemson on the ACC Roundup this morning. For the moment, KenPom has the Tigers at 22nd nationally in this morning's rankings - the best of the rest in the conference after the top 4 of Duke-UNC-UVA-Louisville.

The Tigers have put together a solid, if not stellar, non-conference record of 10-2 with wins over Georgia, Davidson, @Bama, @South Carolina, and at home over UNC-W (53 in KenPom). They're 1-1 in Tier A games (Top 50 opponent adjusted for home court adv.) and 4-1 in Tier B games (Top 100 opponent adjusted for home court adv.) The losses are to Xavier and Oklahoma - both by two possessions in the early season when they did not have their whole team eligible and healthy.

They've put together some solid conference seasons over the past few years but always had those couple of inexplicable losses that would exclude them from tournament contention. Not so much this year. They're sitting in great shape to make the tournament and SHOULD be in if they take care of business over the next two months. They catch each of the top 4* once: vs UNC, vs UVA, @Duke, @Lou - so while the conference is tough this year, that's about as favorable of a schedule as you can ask for.

Watch out for the Tigers!

[OldPhiKap]

Surprised there was no mention of Clemson on the ACC Roundup this morning. For the moment, KenPom has the Tigers at 22nd nationally in this morning's rankings - the best of the rest in the conference after the top 4 of Duke-UNC-UVA-Louisville.

The Tigers have put together a solid, if not stellar, non-conference record of 10-2 with wins over Georgia, Davidson, @Bama, @South Carolina, and at home over UNC-W (53 in KenPom). They're 1-1 in Tier A games (Top 50 opponent adjusted for home court adv.) and 4-1 in Tier B games (Top 100 opponent adjusted for home court adv.) The losses are to Xavier and Oklahoma - both by two possessions in the early season when they did not have their whole team eligible and healthy.

They've put together some solid conference seasons over the past few years but always had those couple of inexplicable losses that would exclude them from tournament contention. Not so much this year. They're sitting in great shape to make the tournament and SHOULD be in if they take care of business over the next two months. They catch each of the top 4* once: vs UNC, vs UVA, @Duke, @Lou - so while the conference is tough this year, that's about as favorable of a schedule as you can ask for.

Watch out for the Tigers!

Littlejohn is a GREAT place to see a game. I don't know how it is for non-Duke games, but it is intimidating as heck when we go there. And super-nice fans, at least in my experience.

So it looks like we have good fans from UVa, State, Clemson, and UNC on the board. Any other schools I am missing? Lurkers who want to keep us up on your teams? We tend to be a fairly rational board with fans of other schools outside of Chapel Hill. And with the Heels, objectively speaking, we are far from objective at times but that's how that rivalry rolls.

Always nice to hear a conference-wide perspective IMO. And with the number of teams we have, I can't keep up with everyone like I did before expansion.

[DukieTiger]

Littlejohn is a GREAT place to see a game. I don't know how it is for non-Duke games, but it is intimidating as heck when we go there. And super-nice fans, at least in my experience.

So it looks like we have good fans from UVa, State, Clemson, and UNC on the board. Any other schools I am missing? Lurkers who want to keep us up on your teams? We tend to be a fairly rational board with fans of other schools outside of Chapel Hill. And with the Heels, objectively speaking, we are far from objective at times but that's how that rivalry rolls.

Always nice to hear a conference-wide perspective IMO. And with the number of teams we have, I can't keep up with everyone like I did before expansion.

Ah, I forgot to mention Littlejohn in my post- It will be interesting to see if the renovated coliseum provides any momentum in fan support this year- particularly with a team in tournament contention. My experience in years past is similar to OPK- very very good atmosphere for Duke or UNC... but inconsistent for others.

Also, to clarify my allegiances, I'm definitely a Duke fan, but a Clemson grad. I do keep up with the Tigers a reasonable amount though. If you had watched the Clemson student section during a Duke game in the Redick years, I would have been the one guy in orange who was not booing JJ. I was also the one who had a suspiciously blue shirt on under my orange (they make you wear orange to get into the student section.) :)

[DukieTiger]

Surprised there was no mention of Clemson on the ACC Roundup this morning. For the moment, KenPom has the Tigers at 22nd nationally in this morning's rankings - the best of the rest in the conference after the top 4 of Duke-UNC-UVA-Louisville.

The Tigers have put together a solid, if not stellar, non-conference record of 10-2 with wins over Georgia, Davidson, @Bama, @South Carolina, and at home over UNC-W (53 in KenPom). They're 1-1 in Tier A games (Top 50 opponent adjusted for home court adv.) and 4-1 in Tier B games (Top 100 opponent adjusted for home court adv.) The losses are to Xavier and Oklahoma - both by two possessions in the early season when they did not have their whole team eligible and healthy.

They've put together some solid conference seasons over the past few years but always had those couple of inexplicable losses that would exclude them from tournament contention. Not so much this year. They're sitting in great shape to make the tournament and SHOULD be in if they take care of business over the next two months. They catch each of the top 4* once: vs UNC, vs UVA, @Duke, @Lou - so while the conference is tough this year, that's about as favorable of a schedule as you can ask for.

Watch out for the Tigers!

I forgot to comment on my asterisk here... I had to chuckle when I typed "top 4" because the league is so strong this year, there is little difference between the top 4 in the conference and the top 4 nationally. UVA/Duke/UNC are 1-2-3 right now in KenPom. Again.

[dukelifer]

I'm probably more shocked than anyone by this result (despite it starting to seem like we're just a stylistic matchup nightmare for Pitino). We're not exactly "stocked" with top shelf talent, and lost a preseason all american after 2 games. How in the world Bennett does this is just beyond me. As soon as Nichols was lost, I REALLY thought our absolute best case scenario would be to be a fringe top 20 team and maybe win 11 or 12 ACC games. Now that could still end up being the case for sure, but through 12 games.... this edition of my Hoos is WAAAAY better than I expected.

...Now watch us choke at home VS FSU on Saturday. ;-)

UVa wins by playing excellent and consistent defense and seems to be able to do that with less than all-star talent. Reminds me a bit of how K used to win in the 80's with his emphasis on D. The big question for Virginia is whether they can win in March. Until they make a final four, Bennett will not be viewed as a great national coach. Right now- they will likely be a top team in the ACC and should get a decent seed in the big dance.

[OldPhiKap]

UVa wins by playing excellent and consistent defense and seems to be able to do that with less than all-star talent. Reminds me a bit of how K used to win in the 80's with his emphasis on D. The big question for Virginia is whether they can win in March. Until they make a final four, Bennett will not be viewed as a great national coach. Right now- they will likely be a top team in the ACC and should get a decent seed in the big dance.

Of course, that was the knock on K in the '80's too.

1986 (K's sixth season) -- number one team in the nation, lose in the final.
1988 -- lose in the final four.
1989 -- lose in the final four.
1990 -- worst loss (still) in final four history.

"K is a good coach and all, but can't win the big one"

I think the same is true for Bennett, and if we didn't have K he would be the head conference coach I would want at Duke. You are always in the game if the other team can't score.

K of course was boosted by two great groups of players who could also score -- the great Class of '86 (with Amaker '87), and then Laettner/Hurley combo with Grant close behind. I'm not sure that Bennett has landed that kind of team-wide talent yet, although will defer to Wahoo and others on that score.

[Nrrrrvous]

Littlejohn is a GREAT place to see a game. I don't know how it is for non-Duke games, but it is intimidating as heck when we go there. And super-nice fans, at least in my experience.

So it looks like we have good fans from UVa, State, Clemson, and UNC on the board. Any other schools I am missing? Lurkers who want to keep us up on your teams? We tend to be a fairly rational board with fans of other schools outside of Chapel Hill. And with the Heels, objectively speaking, we are far from objective at times but that's how that rivalry rolls.

Always nice to hear a conference-wide perspective IMO. And with the number of teams we have, I can't keep up with everyone like I did before expansion.


VT Class of '95! But Duke fan since about '88! I keep up with my Hokies basketball even though for a few years there wasn't much to keep up with. This year looks like the year they head back to the NCAA tournament! I wish the students were in town for Saturday but still should be a good atmosphere.

[JasonEvans]

The Tigers have put together a solid, if not stellar, non-conference record of 10-2 with wins over Georgia, Davidson, @Bama, @South Carolina, and at home over UNC-W (53 in KenPom).

Watch out for the Tigers!

That South Carolina win is a very nice victory. Clemson's non-conference schedule is rated #88 according to KenPom, the 9th toughest among all the teams in Pomeroy's top 30. That's pretty good. That number will vastly improve as they play the ACC schedule. I think they have a good enough non-conference record so that if they go .500 in the ACC they will make the NCAA tourney. And, as has been noted, with their relatively favorable ACC schedule going .500 should be a bare minimum accomplishment for this team. They get Wake twice and Ga Tech twice though BC only once. That is 5 games against what is expected to be the bottom of the league. Clemson has a real shot to be in contention for the top of the conference and a high NCAA seed this season.

-Jason "nice to see Blossomgame being rewarded for coming back as a senior -- though he is really struggling with his outside shot thus far" Evans

[OldPhiKap]

VT Class of '95! But Duke fan since about '88! I keep up with my Hokies basketball even though for a few years there wasn't much to keep up with. This year looks like the year they head back to the NCAA tournament! I wish the students were in town for Saturday but still should be a good atmosphere.

Great to hear, I hope you can throw out some observations about VT when you have them.


That South Carolina win is a very nice victory. Clemson's non-conference schedule is rated #88 according to KenPom, the 9th toughest among all the teams in Pomeroy's top 30. That's pretty good. That number will vastly improve as they play the ACC schedule. I think they have a good enough non-conference record so that if they go .500 in the ACC they will make the NCAA tourney. And, as has been noted, with their relatively favorable ACC schedule going .500 should be a bare minimum accomplishment for this team. They get Wake twice and Ga Tech twice though BC only once. That is 5 games against what is expected to be the bottom of the league. Clemson has a real shot to be in contention for the top of the conference and a high NCAA seed this season.

-Jason "nice to see Blossomgame being rewarded for coming back as a senior -- though he is really struggling with his outside shot thus far" Evans

Clemson and South Carolina have both really upped their OOC scheduling, from historically weak offerings. I think both realize that if you want to dance, you need to show that you can hang with and beat the kinds of teams you may face in the tourney. Props to both coaches.

[DukieTiger]

That South Carolina win is a very nice victory. Clemson's non-conference schedule is rated #88 according to KenPom, the 9th toughest among all the teams in Pomeroy's top 30. That's pretty good. That number will vastly improve as they play the ACC schedule. I think they have a good enough non-conference record so that if they go .500 in the ACC they will make the NCAA tourney. And, as has been noted, with their relatively favorable ACC schedule going .500 should be a bare minimum accomplishment for this team. They get Wake twice and Ga Tech twice though BC only once. That is 5 games against what is expected to be the bottom of the league. Clemson has a real shot to be in contention for the top of the conference and a high NCAA seed this season.

-Jason "nice to see Blossomgame being rewarded for coming back as a senior -- though he is really struggling with his outside shot thus far" Evans

Yeah, Blossomgame is the kind of player you want to see in the tournament. He's a first-team All ACC caliber guy.

Also, he's only played 3 games but Elijah Thomas has done some nice work for Clemson. I remember Duke flirting with him back in the day. Hard to believe he's only a college sophomore.

[newclasspack]

State rolled Rider 99-71.

Now that we are playing at full strength we seem to be playing MUCH better the last few games after Yurtseven became eligible and Rowan came back from a concussion. We were three points away from three different players having double doubles.

Abdul-Mallik Abu has 12 boards, 12 points
Dennis Smith, Jr had 19 points and 16 assists
Ted Kapita had 11 boards but only 7 points.

Since scrapping by Tennessee State in over time (though we did beat them by one more point than Duke ;) ), State has won 97-64, 99-78, 89-57, and 99-71.

Next up is at Miami on new years eve.We actually beat them by 2 more points :)

With this game Dennis Jumps form 4th in assists at 5.5 to 1st in assists with 6.3 i guess a 16 assists game will do that. he's also 5th in scoring... right behind that pesky Kennard kid,

[Olympic Fan]

Of course, that was the knock on K in the '80's too.

1986 (K's sixth season) -- number one team in the nation, lose in the final.
1988 -- lose in the final four.
1989 -- lose in the final four.
1990 -- worst loss (still) in final four history.

"K is a good coach and all, but can't win the big one"

I think the same is true for Bennett, and if we didn't have K he would be the head conference coach I would want at Duke. You are always in the game if the other team can't score.

K of course was boosted by two great groups of players who could also score -- the great Class of '86 (with Amaker '87), and then Laettner/Hurley combo with Grant close behind. I'm not sure that Bennett has landed that kind of team-wide talent yet, although will defer to Wahoo and others on that score.

Not sure that's the greatest comparison -- K had four Final Fours and another Sweet 16 (1987) in that span you site.

Bennett has yet to reach the Final Four (choking the E8 game with Syracuse last year). He has one Elite Eight appearance (2016) and four other Sweet 16s (two at Virginia; two at Washington State).

I think K did have slightly higher rated talent in his early years than Bennett has had -- although his current freshman class looks much like one of the K early classes from the 1980s.

[Note: Just to be sure -- Laettner and Hurley were not in the same class. Laettner came in 1988 (with Brian Davis and Crawford Palmer). Hurley came in 1989 (with Thomas Hill and Billy McCaffrey). Grant Hill came in 1990 (with Tony Lang, Marty Clark, Christian Ast and -- I think Kenny Blakeney). There was no RSCI for that period, so hard to get average recruiting rankings, but only Grant Hill was a top five prospect ... Hurley was borderline top 10 ... Laettner was a borderline top 20 guy (I still remember listening to a prep guru argue that Palmer was a better prospect than Laettner ... and Bob Gibbons famously revised his rankings when Grant Hill committed to Duke -- dropping Hill several places and elevating Brian Reese over him).

[JasonEvans]

I think K did have slightly higher rated talent in his early years than Bennett has had -- although his current freshman class looks much like one of the K early classes from the 1980s.

Yeah, I am really, really worried about what Virginia will be with top notch recruits. A terrifying prospect. Bennett has created a perennial top 10 program without signing all that many top 100 kind of recruits and almost no one who would be a Mickie Dee contender. Well, in his latest class he brought in 4 top 100 recruits including a couple top 50 players. Want to be even more scared -- he's redshirting 2 of them so they will have an extra year of eligibility. Yikes!!

Now, it is worth noting that I don't think top 25 recruits will necessarily work with what Bennett has built. He needs kids to be there a couple years (at least) to really figure out how his teams play. One and done talent does not necessarily mesh with the complexities of the pack line defense. That said, by the time these kids are juniors and seniors they for a great team. It is a very solid way of sustaining a top-tier program.

-Jason "as I said on the latest podcast (https://soundcloud.com/dbrpodcast/dbr-podcast-65-acc-preview) (around the 40:00 mark), the fact that Tony Bennett has not won Coach of the Year yet is a ridiculous crime!" Evans

[Wahoo2000]

Not sure that's the greatest comparison -- K had four Final Fours and another Sweet 16 (1987) in that span you site.

Bennett has yet to reach the Final Four (choking the E8 game with Syracuse last year). He has one Elite Eight appearance (2016) and four other Sweet 16s (two at Virginia; two at Washington State).

I think K did have slightly higher rated talent in his early years than Bennett has had -- although his current freshman class looks much like one of the K early classes from the 1980s.

2 things:

1 - I think OPK's point was that WHATEVER rate your team is winning at, if it's below what's "expected" based on regular season results, the coach starts getting "the knock" - that was K in the 80s ("He can't win it all!"), and Bennett currently ("He can't get to a final four!"). I'm confident Bennett will get us there with time. Really believe it's about 50% a sample-size issue, and 50% a talent issue..... which leads to point #2

2 - You're right about the current freshman class. It's far and away the best Bennett has brought in. Diakite, Guy, and Jerome were all ranked higher than any other player Bennett has brought in, and 2 guys redshirting were ranked as high or higher than anyone else we've brought in except for Anderson (might be a quibble with DeAndre Hunter, whose ranking was pretty impacted by missing a chunk of jr year and the following AAU season with a broken leg). It's a very well positionally-balanced team too, with 2 bigs, 2 wings, and a point.
The quickest rundown I can give on those guys and player comps:
Ty Jerome - 6'5 point. Similar to perrantes - excellent vision, great handle. Ability to change speeds well makes up somewhat for a lack of real burst athletically.
Kyle Guy - 6'3 wing/SG. Elite shooter, underrated attacking off the bounce and passing. Like a VERY VERY VERY poor man's Steph Curry.
DeAndre Hunter - 6'8 wing. Blossomgame is a good comp (obviously not that good yet, but ahead of Jarron entering college)
Jay Huff - 6'11 forward. Shockingly good shot and handle for a big. Good toughness. Desperately needs to add weight and strength (thus the RS). Player comp - Nikola Mirotic
Mamadi Diakite - 6'9 F/C. Only been playing basketball for a few years. Suprisingly good shooter. Akil Mitchell with a good, but not GREAT shot.

If those guys are all still at UVA 2 seasons from now, and we don't get to a final four by the end of that year (2019), then I'll start to think that something in Tony's style PREVENTS tourney success.

(sorry for the lengthy post)

[jv001]

2 things:

1 - I think OPK's point was that WHATEVER rate your team is winning at, if it's below what's "expected" based on regular season results, the coach starts getting "the knock" - that was K in the 80s ("He can't win it all!"), and Bennett currently ("He can't get to a final four!"). I'm confident Bennett will get us there with time. Really believe it's about 50% a sample-size issue, and 50% a talent issue... which leads to point #2

2 - You're right about the current freshman class. It's far and away the best Bennett has brought in. Diakite, Guy, and Jerome were all ranked higher than any other player Bennett has brought in, and 2 guys redshirting were ranked as high or higher than anyone else we've brought in except for Anderson (might be a quibble with DeAndre Hunter, whose ranking was pretty impacted by missing a chunk of jr year and the following AAU season with a broken leg). It's a very well positionally-balanced team too, with 2 bigs, 2 wings, and a point.
The quickest rundown I can give on those guys and player comps:
Ty Jerome - 6'5 point. Similar to perrantes - excellent vision, great handle. Ability to change speeds well makes up somewhat for a lack of real burst athletically.
Kyle Guy - 6'3 wing/SG. Elite shooter, underrated attacking off the bounce and passing. Like a VERY VERY VERY poor man's Steph Curry.
DeAndre Hunter - 6'8 wing. Blossomgame is a good comp (obviously not that good yet, but ahead of Jarron entering college)
Jay Huff - 6'11 forward. Shockingly good shot and handle for a big. Good toughness. Desperately needs to add weight and strength (thus the RS). Player comp - Nikola Mirotic
Mamadi Diakite - 6'9 F/C. Only been playing basketball for a few years. Suprisingly good shooter. Akil Mitchell with a good, but not GREAT shot.

If those guys are all still at UVA 2 seasons from now, and we don't get to a final four by the end of that year (2019), then I'll start to think that something in Tony's style PREVENTS tourney success.
(sorry for the lengthy post)

Thanks for the breakdown on your Cavs. I'm wondering if the bolded part of your post, has slightly entered into your thinking about your coach's offense? It reminds me of some Duke fans questioning Coach K's man to man defense in the 80's. :cool:GoDuke!

[Wahoo2000]

Now, it is worth noting that I don't think top 25 recruits will necessarily work with what Bennett has built. He needs kids to be there a couple years (at least) to really figure out how his teams play. One and done talent does not necessarily mesh with the complexities of the pack line defense. That said, by the time these kids are juniors and seniors they for a great team. It is a very solid way of sustaining a top-tier program.

-Jason "as I said on the latest podcast (https://soundcloud.com/dbrpodcast/dbr-podcast-65-acc-preview) (around the 40:00 mark), the fact that Tony Bennett has not won Coach of the Year yet is a ridiculous crime!" Evans

Yeah, we won't be competing for the one and done kids too often. In some rare cases maybe, but even if we win a title or two, I can't see us getting more than 1 every few years. Bennett is increasingly showing his flexibility in incorporating scoring talent when needed even if there's some small sacrifice defensively (see Kyle Guy's floor time increasing as this season goes on). And while I love his overall philosophy, I'm maybe even more excited to see him realizing that at times, a coach MUST be adaptable based on his existing talent's strengths & deficiencies.

And not sure if your sig was TIC, but Bennett has won the Iba twice, the AP CoY once, the Naismith CoY once, and ACC CoY twice. Let's face it, he's "built" for those awards, since he's usually winning with "lesser talent" and overachieving based on preseason expectations, and that seems to be how they give those things out.

[Wahoo2000]

Thanks for the breakdown on your Cavs. I'm wondering if the bolded part of your post, has slightly entered into your thinking about your coach's offense? It reminds me of some Duke fans questioning Coach K's man to man defense in the 80's. :cool:GoDuke!

Not at all (yet). I'm a big advanced metrics guy. If we have a top off-eff, I'll take it. Even if a slower pace means more variance. I don't think we could be as efficient offensively if we sped up, and making the other team spend energy/focus grinding on D only helps OUR defense be more successful.

And as far as tourney results go - it's really only 3 seasons since we "got good". 2 of those tourney "upsets" were to MSU, who is as big a stylistic nightmare for us as we apparently are for Louisville. Some teams/coaches just don't match up well. Izzo is kryptonite for us. The 3rd? That awful game against the Orange this March. Just a total choke combined with a couple Orange players having out-of-body experiences in the last 8 minutes. I don't blame our style for that, guys just got tight as Syracuse started hitting some hero shots and our guys probably thought too much about how close they were to hitting a MAJOR program goal. Sickening, but it happens.

The only reason I wasn't suicidal after that game is that I knew the real reason we were in that position (an elite team on the cusp of a FF) wasn't Brogdon, Gill, Tobey, or any other player - it was the coach. And he wasn't going anywhere. Really believe we'll be a fixture in the top 10 as long as Bennett is around. If he decides to follow the Brad Stevens path to the NBA.... THEN I'll be devastated.

[OldPhiKap]

2 things:

1 - I think OPK's point was that WHATEVER rate your team is winning at, if it's below what's "expected" based on regular season results, the coach starts getting "the knock" - that was K in the 80s ("He can't win it all!"), and Bennett currently ("He can't get to a final four!"). I'm confident Bennett will get us there with time. Really believe it's about 50% a sample-size issue, and 50% a talent issue... which leads to point #2



Exactly. And as Jason noted, K had better talent as a group early than Bennett (who had some very good players, but not really a squad like Duke '86 that launched K). Remember that when K started, the ACC had Dean; Lefty; Valvano (who won a NC); Terry Holland; and Cremins (probably the best recruiter in the conference outside of Dean). It was not until that '86 run, and then sweeping UNC in three games in '88, that K really started stepping onto the national stage. And even then, he "couldn't win the big one" including an epic butt-whooping at the hands of Vegas in '90.

I think if Bennett had even close to the level of talent that we are blessed to have, he would have clear national title contenders. And I don't mean that as a slight to UVa's players past or present. Bennett is real deal, and seems to run an exceptional program of which its fans are rightfully proud.

[JasonEvans]

Bennett is real deal, and seems to run an exceptional program of which its fans are rightfully proud.

Plus, he does not tolerate knuckleheads... something that sets him apart from many in the profession.

[Olympic Fan]

Huge day Saturday.

Obviously, the big one for most of us is Duke at Virginia Tech at noon.

And beyond that, I think the best game is Louisville-Indiana in Indianapolis -- two very good teams, both coming off horrific home losses (Virginia over Louisville; Nebraska over Indiana). Somebody is gong to have two straight losses. And it could get worse -- both have tough games next week -- Louisville at Notre Dame and Indiana vs. Wisconsin. This is a big one.

Still, the focus of the day will be the conference openers for number of teams.

Only Georgia Tech at the Cheats is a blowout situation. Virginia should be favored at home against FSU, but it's no gimmie.

The others (including Duke at VPI) are all tossups:

Clemson at Wake (I think Clemson is better, but I also think Wake will be tough at home)

NC State at Miami (State has been great since adding Yurtseven and Rowan, but that was against weak opposition).

Notre Dame at Pitt (the Irish have been better than I expected, the Panthers worse -- but two veteran teams with some size issues)

Struggling Syracuse gets a soft opener at BC on Sunday.

Best part is that most of the games wrap up before the football playoffs start at 4 p.m.

[Bob Green]

Best part is that most of the games wrap up before the football playoffs start at 4 p.m.

Washington vs Alabama kicks-off at 3 pm.

[MChambers]

Really believe we'll be a fixture in the top 10 as long as Bennett is around. If he decides to follow the Brad Stevens path to the NBA... THEN I'll be devastated.

One good thing about Bennett's style: it doesn't seem that it would translate all that well to the NBA. Also, Bennett really seems happy at Virginia, so I'm optimistic he'll stay for a long time.

Unless, of course, Steve Kerr resigns. If Golden State came calling, I think Bennett would follow his heart. 😉

[jv001]

Plus, he does not tolerate knuckleheads... something that sets him apart from many in the profession.

Top of that list is old Roy Williams, cheater coach. GoDuke!

[Olympic Fan]

While I was disappointed by Duke's loss at VPI, I wasn't that surprised.

I was ASTONISHED by UNC's loss at Georgia Tech ... and it wasn't that close.

That's a BAD loss, even on the road. My definition of a bad loss is a home loss to anybody or a loss anywhere to Georgia Tech or BC.

Interesting that the home teams seem to be really strong today ... with the exception of Wake Forest.

You've got to start wondering about Danny Manning and the Deacs. Last Wednesday, they are up five on FSU late, then give up 17 straight points and lose. This time, they are up 10 late on Clemson -- at home! -- and they give up 15 straight points and lose.

Are we seeing another collapse like last season?

Great win by Louisville over Indiana in Indianapolis. Weird last three games, They beat Kentucky at home, lose to Virginia at home, then blow out Indiana in Indy.

Virginia's win at Louisville is looking pretty impressive right now.

Still in action, but early in the second half, both Virginia and Pitt (the home teams) seem in control over FSU and Notre Dame, respectively. NC State at Miami coming up at 4:30.

[Troublemaker]

Wow, Dwayne Bacon is really good! 29 points at UVA, including the game-winning 3 down one point. 60-58 FSU win.

This league is going to be tough.

[Doria]

Wow, Dwayne Bacon is really good! 29 points at UVA, including the game-winning 3 down one point. 60-58 FSU win.

This league is going to be tough.

Yeah, FSU showing the early returns of their last-season young potential. That was barely even in English, but I agree that Bacon was impressive.

[Faustus]

Hmmm... Duke, Louisville, UNC and UVa all tied in last place. Just like the pundits all predicted pre-season. Will be an interesting season, no?

[Doria]

Yeah, and ND just barely outlasting Pitt. Wow...

[Olympic Fan]

Hmmm... Duke, Louisville, UNC and UVa all tied in last place. Just like the pundits all predicted pre-season. Will be an interesting season, no?

Actually, 0-2 Wake Forest is in last place -- behind 0-1 Duke, 0-1 UNC and 0-1 Louisville (and 0-1 Pitt). Virginia is 1-1.

I spoke too soon about the home teams in the 2 p.m. games, both FSU and Notre Dame fighting back to win on the road -- both on contested 3-pointers with under 3 seconds left.

Amazing finish in the Virginia-FSU game. The Cavs rallied from a five-point deficit with 25 seconds left and got the lead with about 8 seconds left when Kyle Guy nailed a 3-pointer off a great setup from Perrantes. But Bacon took the inbounds, brought it up and nailed a 3 over Isaiah Wilkins with 2.0 seconds left.

Notre Dame was lucky to have a chance. They outscored Pitt 6-1 in the final two minutes to force a tie and got overtime when Pitt missed twice in the final seconds. Pitt went up five to start the OT, but Notre Dame tied it on a 3 from Vasturia. Pitt went up on a shot by Artis (he and Young combined for more than 50 points), but Vasturia hit a contested 3 with 2.5 seconds left.

Amazing day of ACC basketball, marred only by Duke's (well-earned) loss in Blacksburg.

Still got NC State at Miami to look forward to -- starting in a few minutes.

[DukieInBrasil]

all three of the "top tier" teams that played ACC-only games today, lost. Only Louisville won and they were OOC.
So Duke's embarrassing loss get ameliorated a bit by UNC's (arguably) worse loss, while UVA at least lost to a ranked team. All losses were on the road.
An interesting start to the season indeed.

[dukelifer]

all three of the "top tier" teams that played ACC-only games today, lost. Only Louisville won and they were OOC.
So Duke's embarrassing loss get ameliorated a bit by UNC's (arguably) worse loss, while UVA at least lost to a ranked team. All losses were on the road.
An interesting start to the season indeed.

UVA lost at home.

[dukelifer]

Wow, Dwayne Bacon is really good! 29 points at UVA, including the game-winning 3 down one point. 60-58 FSU win.

This league is going to be tough.

Everyone is up on opening day - and when they play Duke. But the league is much closer packed- like the good old days.

[FerryFor50]

all three of the "top tier" teams that played ACC-only games today, lost. Only Louisville won and they were OOC.
So Duke's embarrassing loss get ameliorated a bit by UNC's (arguably) worse loss, while UVA at least lost to a ranked team. All losses were on the road.
An interesting start to the season indeed.

Trying to figure out how Duke (without one of its best players) losing on the road to a one loss team ranked in the top 50 of kenpom that's historically given them trouble is "embarrassing."

UNC's loss wasn't "arguably" worse; it was way worse.

[Doria]

Trying to figure out how Duke (without one of its best players) losing on the road to a one loss team ranked in the top 50 of kenpom that's historically given them trouble is "embarrassing."

UNC's loss wasn't "arguably" worse; it was way worse.

Yeah, that UNC loss was worse by pretty much any known metric. (Also, in Cassel VT has given plenty of people trouble, not just us.)

Hope NCSU can give Miami a game; it isn't on TV here, and I've gotta get some work done anyhow.

[OldPhiKap]

Trying to figure out how Duke (without one of its best players) losing on the road to a one loss team ranked in the top 50 of kenpom that's historically given them trouble is "embarrassing."

UNC's loss wasn't "arguably" worse; it was way worse.

Losing at VT is not embarrassing.

Getting outmanned for forty minutes is.

[FerryFor50]

Losing at VT is not embarrassing.

Getting outmanned for forty minutes is.

Meh. It happens on occasion. The only thing that matters is, how does this team respond to getting thoroughly outplayed?

[DukieInBrasil]

Trying to figure out how Duke (without one of its best players) losing on the road to a one loss team ranked in the top 50 of kenpom that's historically given them trouble is "embarrassing."

UNC's loss wasn't "arguably" worse; it was way worse.

After VT got the lead above 10 it ceased to be a competitive game, and was never less than a 5-possession game after about 10 minutes in the first half. VT controlled the game throughout and grew its lead to 18 in the second half before a couple of late baskets by Duke got the game to 14. The result isn't the embarrassment, the level of play was.
UNC was down 6 with a couple of minutes to go, a 2 or 3-possession game. GT made a few plays down the stretch to grow the lead to 12. UNC was in a position where they could have snatched the win down the stretch with some clutch play, and they stumbled. Duke was never in a position to win the game once the opening tip was done. So, yeah, UNC lost to a worse team, but they played good enough to give themselves a chance to win. That won't show up in KenPom, but it matters to me.

[Kfanarmy]

Meh. It happens on occasion. The only thing that matters is, how does this team respond to getting thoroughly outplayed?

I think we can expect more of the same. They arent playing defense and would have lost the last three against ACC competition.

[FerryFor50]

I think we can expect more of the same. They arent playing defense and would have lost the last three against ACC competition.

Maybe. But they didn't lose those games. Losing is more of a reality check then playing poorly and winning.

[Olympic Fan]

UVA lost at home.

But that is balanced by their win Wednesday night at Louisville.

I think it's interesting that the four top teams in the ACC (based on the polls, preseason rankings and the dork metrics) have all already lost in the league -- Duke, UNC, Virginia and Louisville.

What's the worst loss?

I'd say UNC at Georgia Tech ... even though it is on the road, it came against a truly bad team. FSU is ranked, VPI is likely to be ranked next week.

Rank Wake's loss (the result of an amazing collapse) at home to Clemson as the next worse loss.

NC State at Miami and Duke at VPI were only bad in that neither team was competitive. But neither loss was surprising or embarrassing. (Just to clarify, losing at 12-1 VPI is not embarrassing ... I guess you could argue that Duke's performance was).

PS I think Saturday was just the second time in ACC history when all four members of the Big Four lost on the same day. I seem to remember that when it happened early last season, it was the first time in history.

[Olympic Fan]

The insanity continues -- BC is up 10 on Syracuse late in the first half.

BTW: ESPN had a note up confirming what I posted last night. Saturday was the second time in ACC history that all four Big Four members lost on the same day. I was wrong about the previous occasion -- it was Jan. 11, 2014, almost three years ago.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18384788/north-carolina-big-four-schools-all-lose-same-day-rarity

[Neals384]

After the first weekend of conference play, the following are undefeated in ACC play:

Florida State
Virginia Tech
Notre Dame
Miami
Clemson
Georgia Tech
Boston College

Who would have predicted that?

[Olympic Fan]

Final: BC 96, Syracuse 81 ... it wasn't that close. BC led by 20-plus most of the second half.

The win snaps BC's 20-game ACC losing streak.

And confirms that Syracuse is not an NCAA team.

[NSDukeFan]

Should I now be less confident about Duke's next two easy conference games since Duke is at the bottom of the standings and the opponents are on top? Or, should I not overreact to one weekend?

[devildeac]

Should I now be less confident about Duke's next two easy conference games since Duke is at the bottom of the standings and the opponents are on top? Or, should I not overreact to one weekend?

I think we should all be in SHPaM mode until we play again.

(:rolleyes: cuz ya never know how internet sarcasm meters have been tuned this early in 2017 ;))