DBR Podcast Episode 65: ACC Season Begins

[Dev11]

Two pods in one week, despite Jason making wisecracks about my love life in the last thread

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0:00 Welcome to the ACC Preview Pod… featuring Donald educating us about Kujichagulia
3:40 Preview #1 – Sam looks at Duke vs. Virginia Tech, there’s a real chance Duke could lose this game
14:10 Preview #2 – Jason on Ga Tech, a team that really needs more talent
18:25 Jason goes off-topic to talk about high school recruiting in the state of Georgia
24:00 A discussion of whether Grayson will come back for the Ga Tech game ensues
26:05 Preview #3 – Donald on BC, the trainwreck of the ACC
32:20 Biggest surprises and disappointments in the ACC thus far, it all begins with Jason being really impressed with Notre Dame
38:00 Sam has fun with some stats on Virginia’s defense
44:35 Donald’s surprise is how good almost everyone in the ACC is (except for the bottom few teams) and he can’t help but love on the Miami Hurricanes
48:50 Thoughts on Duke’s non-conference performance – MVPs thus far: Sam and Jason say Amile while Donald picks Luke
55:50 Donald surprises us by asking for Duke’s best game of the year thus far. The one thing we agree upon is that our best game is still to come!
1:01:00 Good bye and Happy New Year!

[richardjackson199]

Duke's best game of the year thus far was Florida. Good opponent, and we came together as a team in spectacular fashion to win it.

Let's hope something similar happens Saturday. We will really need to come together to win in our first true road game. I was at UNLV and Greensboro Coliseum (Elon). Those were not real road games given that the vast majority of fans at both games were Dukies.

Starting this tough ACC season 1-0 could be crucial to getting off to the right start to winning the ACC regular season - in probably the best ACC I've seen since 95. And I believe winning the ACC regular season will be necessary to get a #1 seed. Too many other good teams out there who will end with good records to get two 1 seeds from the ACC.

[DukieInBrasil]

I'll vote for Amile as team MVP so far. Which is why it confuses me so much that Tatum gets 22 shots in a game (making only 7), when we have a guy who makes ~65% of his shots. This team needs to make a more conscious effort to make the ball go through Amile first, Luke second, and (as long as Grayson is out) Tatum 3rd. I don't think Duke will find its offensive mojo again until the team and Tatum can figure out how to get Tatum involved, but not make him the focus. Both Jefferson and Kennard are wildly more efficient than Tatum, so far, and those two need to be the focus.

[JasonEvans]

Starting this tough ACC season 1-0 could be crucial to getting off to the right start to winning the ACC regular season - in probably the best ACC I've seen since 95. And I believe winning the ACC regular season will be necessary to get a #1 seed. Too many other good teams out there who will end with good records to get two 1 seeds from the ACC.

Well... I dunno. If a couple ACC teams go 16-2 or 15-3 and make the finals of the ACC tourney, they could easily both get #1 seeds. I agree that if the top 2 in the ACC each have 4 or 5 conference losses (which would still be impressive with this powerful conference) then it will be tough to get 2 #1 seeds. Of course, this is absurdly early and we simply do not know how other likely #1 seeds such as Kentucky, UCLA, Villanova, Kansas, Baylor, and others will look. What does the committee do with a Gonzaga team if they win out or only lose to St Mary's and yet will not have faced a top 15 team all season?

-Jason "undefeated Gonzaga gets a #1 seed... but if they lose 1 or 2 games, what do you do with them?" Evans

[Bob Green]

I am surprised the three hosts are so upbeat about the prospect of Grayson Allen returning to play against Georgia Tech. I see Allen's return as a huge unknown right now as none of us know what is going on internally so it is impossible to predict what, and how long, it is going to take for him to get "right." I pride myself on being optimistic in regard to sports but I am uneasy with the Allen situation.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I am surprised the three hosts are so upbeat about the prospect of Grayson Allen returning to play against Georgia Tech. I see Allen's return as a huge unknown right now as none of us know what is going on internally so it is impossible to predict what, and how long, it is going to take for him to get "right." I pride myself on being optimistic in regard to sports but I am uneasy with the Allen situation.

Agreed. I get the sense from K's appearance on Dan Patrick the day after "the incident" that coach is going to set benchmarks for his return, and those benchmarks may be irrespective of a timeline.

I feel like the two biggest variables in this issue (that has admittedly been beaten past death and back to life again) are:

- Can Grayson get his head straight to play his hard-nosed intense brand of basketball BUT know where that thin red line is that separates delineates sportsmanship and competition?

- Will the team buy in and accept Grayson back into the fold and how will his humbling affect this group of young men?

I don't see any way to read Luke's postgame comments as anything other than a thinly veiled shot at Grayson's behavior. If cool hand Luke is saying it, one has to believe the younger kids are thinking it.

This team HAS to buy into the fist - team ball comes first, communication on the floor, win together, next play, and all those other coachisms we repeat ad nauseum here.

We have all the talent in the world, but so does Kentucky most years and they have one trophy. This will be a very interesting team to watch over the next three months.

[JasonEvans]

Agreed. I get the sense from K's appearance on Dan Patrick the day after "the incident" that coach is going to set benchmarks for his return, and those benchmarks may be irrespective of a timeline.

I feel like the two biggest variables in this issue (that has admittedly been beaten past death and back to life again) are:

- Can Grayson get his head straight to play his hard-nosed intense brand of basketball BUT know where that thin red line is that separates delineates sportsmanship and competition?

- Will the team buy in and accept Grayson back into the fold and how will his humbling affect this group of young men?

I don't see any way to read Luke's postgame comments as anything other than a thinly veiled shot at Grayson's behavior. If cool hand Luke is saying it, one has to believe the younger kids are thinking it.

This team HAS to buy into the fist - team ball comes first, communication on the floor, win together, next play, and all those other coachisms we repeat ad nauseum here.

We have all the talent in the world, but so does Kentucky most years and they have one trophy. This will be a very interesting team to watch over the next three months.

I dunno if any of us can tell who Luke was talking about. His comments may have referred to what guys are doing in games but it also could have been a practice or locker room thing. He was talking about buying in to the program versus the self. It doesn't feel like that comment would be made about an experienced upperclassman, but I could be wrong. It is not like Grayson is taking a million shots every game to pad his own stats -- he attempted 7 against Elon and 8 against Tenn St. Both Luke and Jason Tatum took many more shots than Grayson did.

I agree that K will have specific things that Grayson must achieve but the Ga Tech game will be 14 days after the Elon game... 2 weeks is a long time. I suspect one of the benchmarks will be how Grayson performs in actual games (because nothing simulates the intensity of a game like a game) so I suspect K will bring Grayson along somewhat slowly, perhaps only playing 10-15 minutes for a game or two and then gradually moving up as he shows the ability to keep a level head in games.

There is no chance any of us know what is happening in practice right now or where K and Grayson are on all this, but the notion that Grayson would miss more than 1 or maybe 2 games for an incident like this seems like excessive punishment to me.

-Jason "I'm betting Grayson is back to playing 30 minutes per game by late-January, if not sooner" Evans

[Bob Green]

I agree that K will have specific things that Grayson must achieve but the Ga Tech game will be 14 days after the Elon game... 2 weeks is a long time. I suspect one of the benchmarks will be how Grayson performs in actual games (because nothing simulates the intensity of a game like a game) so I suspect K will bring Grayson along somewhat slowly, perhaps only playing 10-15 minutes for a game or two and then gradually moving up as he shows the ability to keep a level head in games.

I am of the opinion the established benchmarks (whatever they are) will have to be satisfactorily met before Grayson steps onto the court in a game. Coach K is going to be showing Grayson a lot of tough love to absolutely ensure there is not another incident.




There is no chance any of us know what is happening in practice right now or where K and Grayson are on all this, but the notion that Grayson would miss more than 1 or maybe 2 games for an incident like this seems like excessive punishment to me.

Perhaps you are minimizing the fact Grayson has tripped an opponent three times. That's huge. He is a repeat, repeat offender. He crossed a line which resulted in Coach K making the statement that Grayson's actions do not meet the standards of Duke Basketball. This suspension is about much more than punishment.

Grayson Allen is one of my favorite players. I love his intense reckless abandon playing style so this is another case where I hope I am wrong and he is back on the court playing the game he loves sooner rather than later.

[Saratoga2]

I am of the opinion the established benchmarks (whatever they are) will have to be satisfactorily met before Grayson steps onto the court in a game. Coach K is going to be showing Grayson a lot of tough love to absolutely ensure there is not another incident.


I don't see this indefinite suspension so much as a punishment and more of an opportunity to confront his inner problem. The reality is that one more similar incident of perceived dirty play will see him out permanently. He will face a lot of heckling, physical abuse and second guessing so his self control will have to be exceptional not to cross the line again. Yes, coach K has no doubt given Grayson benchmarks to be achieved before returning and has probably told him he is now on a very short leash. I certainly hope he can get reinstated to the team and finish out the season strongly.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

He will face a lot of heckling, physical abuse and second guessing so his self control will have to be exceptional not to cross the line again

This is a very important point. Opponents will absolutely target Grayson (as they ought) and refs, and commentators will be just waiting for any sign that Allen is about to lose his cool.

That kid is going to need a session with Phil Jackson to reach his inner Zen master.

[NSDukeFan]

I don't see this indefinite suspension so much as a punishment and more of an opportunity to confront his inner problem. The reality is that one more similar incident of perceived dirty play will see him out permanently. He will face a lot of heckling, physical abuse and second guessing so his self control will have to be exceptional not to cross the line again. Yes, coach K has no doubt given Grayson benchmarks to be achieved before returning and has probably told him he is now on a very short leash. I certainly hope he can get reinstated to the team and finish out the season strongly.

Why would one more similar incident see him out permanently? I hope there aren't any more incidents and realize Duke's standards are different than others', but I haven't seen anything but speculation that another incident would result in a permanent suspension.

[Saratoga2]

Why would one more similar incident see him out permanently? I hope there aren't any more incidents and realize Duke's standards are different than others', but I haven't seen anything but speculation that another incident would result in a permanent suspension.

I should have added the qualifier "in my opinion", which I had in the original and then removed. My opinion is that the pressure on coach K and Duke university would be very high to give him a permanent or at least the rest of the year suspension, which is the same as permanent, because I doubt he would return. That would be very hard on Grayson and perhaps unwarranted, but likely.

[richardjackson199]

Well... I dunno. If a couple ACC teams go 16-2 or 15-3 and make the finals of the ACC tourney, they could easily both get #1 seeds. I agree that if the top 2 in the ACC each have 4 or 5 conference losses (which would still be impressive with this powerful conference) then it will be tough to get 2 #1 seeds. Of course, this is absurdly early and we simply do not know how other likely #1 seeds such as Kentucky, UCLA, Villanova, Kansas, Baylor, and others will look. What does the committee do with a Gonzaga team if they win out or only lose to St Mary's and yet will not have faced a top 15 team all season?

-Jason "undefeated Gonzaga gets a #1 seed... but if they lose 1 or 2 games, what do you do with them?" Evans

I love absurdly early speculation, so here goes. I think it's actually more likely that the ACC would get no #1 seeds this year than two. Granted, I believe that the ACC regular season winner absolutely deserves a #1 seed, because this is the best conference in the country top to bottom - to an insane degree this year. I do think it's reasonably likely the ACC will thus get one #1 seed because the committee will acknowledge this, just not two.

Gonzaga is very good, but does anybody think they would earn a #1 seed if they had to go through the ACC gauntlet? They might - but they would be no more likely to win this ACC than any of the other top teams IMO. But I do think Gonzaga will get a #1 seed, because essentially, they don't play anybody. It's hard for anybody to go undefeated, even with a Gonzaga-like schedule. So I think you're right - only undefeated Gonazaga gets a #1 seed. But I think Gonzaga will be undefeated in March and lock up one #1. Not sure about that, I just think it's more likely than not. If Gonzaga does get that #1, getting the #4 seed in their bracket may not be a bad place to be.

As I guaranteed in Nov., both Kentucky and Nova will also lock up #1 seeds. I'm already investigating west coast craft Vegas beers for Troublemaker to buy me when they do. Kidding of course about my level of confidence, but I do still think both those teams will likely get 1 seeds. Lots of season left to play so we'll see.

That leaves one #1 left. Currently I think that last one will go to either Baylor, Kansas, UCLA, or Oregon. (Or if Gonzaga loses, the last two #1 seeds would most likely go to Big 12 winner and PAC winner because those conferences are more top heavy). I'm not a big believer in West Virginia, Creighton, or Big 10 teams to make the #1 line.

ACC teams are likely to beat each other up with too many losses to beat out the aforementioned teams. But I do expect ACC to dominate in the NCAA tourney as usual. They will be battle tested. Now if one ACC team sets itself apart, (for example by winning the ACC regular season and tourney or just winning ACC regular season handily) - which could certainly happen - then that team should and would get a #1 seed.

But the ACC looks uniformly great with no clearcut juggernaut. That's why I could just as easily see lots of losses, blood, sweat, and tears by all in the ACC.

Just having fun - of course I have no clue and realize that. But it will be a fun year - lots of fun teams to watch. Hopefully we will rise above them all in April. I have NOT given up on this team btw. We have yet to see us at full strength - and probably won't until February at the earliest.

[Bob Green]

I am surprised the three hosts are so upbeat about the prospect of Grayson Allen returning to play against Georgia Tech.

So the podcast hosts' optimism is spot on while I was dead wrong. If I wasn't wrong so much, it would bother me. :cool: Instead it is just situation normal...