Grayson Allen Suspended Indefinitely

[Dukehky]

Accsports.com

This is probably best for all involved. The indefinite part doesn't let talking heads scream about how it's not enough. By the time it's over, it will be a few weeks and won't matter.

K did it himself for the record.

[sagegrouse]

Can you post an excerpt? Didn't find it. Thanks, Sage

[FerryFor50]

Accsports.com

This is probably best for all involved. The indefinite part doesn't let talking heads scream about how it's not enough. By the time it's over, it will be a few weeks and won't matter.

K did it himself for the record.

On the bright side, he can get healthy. Mentally and physically.

[Billy Dat]

All I can find are screen grabs...check @JessikaMorgan on twitter for the full quote

[Spanarkel]

Accsports.com

This is probably best for all involved. The indefinite part doesn't let talking heads scream about how it's not enough. By the time it's over, it will be a few weeks and won't matter.

K did it himself for the record.



I think Coach K's action is in accord with his characterization of Grayson's behavior as "inexcusable."

[FerryFor50]

https://twitter.com/SethDavisHoops/status/811933245759688706?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp %5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

[Native]

Hayes Permar with a copy of K's statement. (https://twitter.com/dhpiv/status/811934459377418241)

[TKG]

I am sure K was moved to take action after the harsh criticism from Seth Greenberg.

[Billy Dat]

6978

[Troublemaker]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0SQpvDVIAAKW_r.jpg:large

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

That ought to shut everyone up for a bit.

[moonpie23]

certainly, an unexpected twist in the season. hope grayson gets his head and his toe together.

[SCMatt33]

I'm so glad the team took this step promptly before the ACC or anyone else did.

[Troublemaker]

I'm just a fan, so I support whatever decision Coach K makes. If there had been no suspension, that would've been fine with me, too (and sort of fun, just to see media heads explode). As he said in his presser, he's the one that knows Grayson and is responsible for him and will therefore have the best judgment as to what to do.

[OldPhiKap]

Appropriate response by K.

We all learn tough lessons some time. I am confident that Grayson will grow positively from this.

Go Duke!

[weezie]

That ought to shut everyone up for a bit.

Dream on MtnDev, dream on.

But he can still practice with the team and that's important

[Doug.I.Am]

You have to start to wonder, is this season cursed? What seemed like a juggernaut just a few months ago is taking on water with injuries and now this.

Get right, Grayson.

[OldPhiKap]

Bt he can still practice with the team and that's important

Noticed that, too.

[devildeac]

Can't argue with this.

If only Grayson had "flopped" when the Elon guy grabbed his arm...

<SMH>

[duke74]

Dream on MtnDev, dream on.

I'm waiting for the headlines to scream, "Why an indefinitive suspension?...why not infinite?" And then go for the head on the pike...

[jv001]

It looks like Grayson is suspended from competition but can practice. At least that's how I read the release. The part of the release that caught my attention was K's comment "the incident doesn't meet the standards of Duke Basketball". Let's see what the media will say now. Probably same old Duke Hate. I hope Grayson can get his act together without losing some of his passion. oDuke!

[weezie]

Noticed that, too.

Rest up, practice, heal and pound opponents senseless when he comes back.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

It looks like Grayson is suspended from competition but can practice. At least that's how I read the release. The part that caught my attention was the incident doesn't meet the standards of Duke Basketball. Now let's see what the media will say now. Probably same old Duke Hate. I hope Grayson can get his act together without losing some of his passion. oDuke!

Thank goodness our program has standards.

[Ballboy1998]

This seems like the right decision by K and the staff. The only bad thing about an "indefinite" suspension is that inevitably whenever Grayson does play again it will bring a whole new set of "hot takes" about how the punishment was too lenient. Not that any other tact would have shut them up.

[jv001]

Thank goodness our program has standards.

Unlike the cheating heels program. GoDuke!

[richardjackson199]

I'm so glad the team took this step promptly before the ACC or anyone else did.

Agreed. Coach K handled this perfectly in my opinion. He had time to carefully consider the situation after the game and make a decision. I believe Duke's standards should be higher than the ACC, and I would not have wanted to see the ACC step in and make a suspension.

I am very sad for Grayson and this is obviously the last thing I wanted to see with this year's team.

At this point I just don't want this to be another distraction for this year's team. When is he coming back? Is he coming back? Will he be back in time for the tourney? I don't want a Grayson tripping vigil. I don't know Grayson and K does. So I fully trust however K handles it. To focus on this year's team - my opinion is I'd like to see Grayson suspended for the rest of this season. I'd like to see him continue to receive the full support of his teammates and coaches. I love that he can practice. Take anger management classes and practice recognizing triggers, choosing a competing response, using some quiet relaxation breaths, and make sure it never happens again. Play with passion, and master that passion to never let it explode into dirty play. Recognize that it's a choice and he can choose to calm himself down and do the right thing even in the moment. Don't let the anger get to the point of no return. Master it.

If Grayson wants to return to Duke next year, I'd welcome him back (just not as a captain). If he wants to move on - I'd support him fully and help him prepare for his next step. I think he'll be a great NBA player. Thankfully - I'm not Coach K, I don't know Grayson, and I support whatever K does.

I'm devastated this has happened to Grayson and our team. But K's timely response makes me very proud to be a Duke fan. Grayson IS a great kid, and I know he will beat this. He has the best sports psychologist, teacher, and mentor the sports world has ever seen.

[Billy Dat]

You have to start to wonder, is this season cursed? What seemed like a juggernaut just a few months ago is taking on water with injuries and now this.

Get right, Grayson.

Someone said it last night in another thread, but hopefully this is a circle the wagons galvanizing event that pushed us forward.

As for the Gottlieb haters, I think a lot of Doug-dislike (aside from the alarmingly unathletic stuff) comes from him being a contrarian. True to form, while the rest of the media kills Allen, he's defending him:

Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 18m18 minutes ago
Grayson Allen tripped a kid, 3rd time, it is dumb,suspended indefinitely. Michael Floyd got his second DUI,.21- playing for Patriots

Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 13m13 minutes ago
Just take a breathe on the #GraysonAllen thing. Still not as bad as Chris Kingsbury or Gabe Mouneke dirty punches.

(in response to a reply saying Allen is blatantly trying to hurt people)
Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 6m6 minutes ago
No it isn't. Undercutting someone in the air is. No one has ever been hurt being tripped. Relax - it is dumb,not criminal

[Billy Dat]

This seems like the right decision by K and the staff. The only bad thing about an "indefinite" suspension is that inevitably whenever Grayson does play again it will bring a whole new set of "hot takes" about how the punishment was too lenient. Not that any other tact would have shut them up.

The hot take already circulating is that this is the easy part of the schedule and you can be sure he'll be back for Louisville - as if reintroducing someone for a big game after a suspension is optimal (with all caveats about Ryan Kelly and Miami)

[dyedwab]

A few thoughts

1) This is the correct response for Duke, Coach K and Grayson. The issue is that this is a repeat offense, which should be treated more severely than a first time offense.

2) That said, I think an indefinite suspension may be too harsh a punishment, and at least some part of me thinks the severity was brought on by the overwhelming public reaction.

3) In the back of my mind, I was worried about this happening in the Elo game after the repeated stories about the foul call in the TSU game, where Grayson got criticized FOR DOING NOTHING WRONG because a ref made a call that people think he shouldn't have made. Grayson, over the past two years, has reacted in frustration and not well when he has become the focal point of public ire/hatred. So, I was concerned with that something like this could happen. Grayson can be baited into doing this (in each of the previous tripping incident, physical contact between the two players was ongoing before Grayson's antics

4) The other thing that has seemed to prompt Grayson's responses has been what he views as overly physical play that goes uncalled/unpunished. He needs to tone that down.

5) Finally, I worry that when he comes back, other teams will understand its open season to be physical with him. IMHO, he is already that recipient of far more uncalled fouls than most other players in the sport, and the officials will be on the lookout for over-the-top reactions from Grayson, rather than the physical play to which he is reacting (And yes, I believe, and have for a long time, that the public/media view of "Duke gets all the calls", "Grayson Allen is a dirty player," etc. effects how refs call a game.

6) I hope everyone, Grayson specifically, can get their heads together now and move forward productively.

[Troublemaker]

You have to start to wonder, is this season cursed? What seemed like a juggernaut just a few months ago is taking on water with injuries and now this.

Get right, Grayson.

I know it's cliche, but I really do think the adversity will help make us tougher in the end.

As for right now, it's a big opportunity for Marques and Harry (and perhaps Chase). Obviously we are down to 4 perimeter players again, and so we'll be forced to use the big lineups more frequently.

[Ballboy1998]

Someone said it last night in another thread, but hopefully this is a circle the wagons galvanizing event that pushed us forward.

As for the Gottlieb haters, I think a lot of Doug-dislike (aside from the alarmingly unathletic stuff) comes from him being a contrarian. True to form, while the rest of the media kills Allen, he's defending him:

Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 18m18 minutes ago
Grayson Allen tripped a kid, 3rd time, it is dumb,suspended indefinitely. Michael Floyd got his second DUI,.21- playing for Patriots

Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 13m13 minutes ago
Just take a breathe on the #GraysonAllen thing. Still not as bad as Chris Kingsbury or Gabe Mouneke dirty punches.

(in response to a reply saying Allen is blatantly trying to hurt people)
Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 6m6 minutes ago
No it isn't. Undercutting someone in the air is. No one has ever been hurt being tripped. Relax - it is dumb,not criminal

Wow, agreeing with Doug Gottlieb on something is a disquieting experience that I hope not to repeat anytime soon.

[uh_no]

at least some part of me thinks the severity was brought on by the overwhelming public reaction.

I don't think K really cares what the public thinks. His comments at the press conference last night indicate that.

[dukelifer]

Accsports.com

This is probably best for all involved. The indefinite part doesn't let talking heads scream about how it's not enough. By the time it's over, it will be a few weeks and won't matter.

K did it himself for the record.

I am fine with it- K's choice. Allen made it worse with the outburst - that is more concerning and I think also for K. That is not how a player reacts to a tech. Allen has had a frustrating season so far and I think this was the culmination of a lot of stress. I also think this is also for the other players as much as Grayson. I think there may some sulking going on and that also needs to stop. The break is coming- the team may face some adversity in the early ACC season- but it is all about peaking late.

[weezie]

Someone said it last night in another thread, but hopefully this is a circle the wagons galvanizing event that pushed us forward.

As for the Gottlieb haters, I think a lot of Doug-dislike (aside from the alarmingly unathletic stuff) comes from him being a contrarian. True to form, while the rest of the media kills Allen, he's defending him...

HOLD UP!!??

Into the bunker everybody, it's the sign of the Apocalypse!!

[Troublemaker]

The hot take already circulating is that this is the easy part of the schedule and you can be sure he'll be back for Louisville - as if reintroducing someone for a big game after a suspension is optimal (with all caveats about Ryan Kelly and Miami)

Oh man, I hope Coach brings Grayson back for VaTech. It is an "indefinite" suspension, afterall. It could be 30 games, it could be 0 games.

[dyedwab]

I don't think K really cares what the public thinks. His comments at the press conference last night indicate that.

That's what he says. But, let me be clear, I didn't believe it when he said last night, and I don't believe it now. Opinions may differ.

Also, I don't think anything is clear cut here. K gave Grayson a fairly severe punishment, but my guess is that Grayson would have been on the dock for a severe punishment from the ACC anyway - which would have been clearly a response to public sentiment (as was last year's weird and unprecedented reprimand). So, public reaction may not have been a direct reason, but I believe it was certainly an indirect one

[tbyers11]

I am fine with it- K's choice. Allen made it worse with the outburst - that is more concerning and I think also for K. That is not how a player reacts to a tech. Allen has had a frustrating season so far and I think this was the culmination of a lot of stress. I also think this is also for the other players as much as Grayson. I think there may some sulking going on and that also needs to stop. The break is coming- the team may face some adversity in the early ACC season- but it is all about peaking late.

This. The outburst and lack of impulse control is FAR worse than the action or any of the 3 actions combined.

[Dukehky]

People think he's coming back just in time for Louisville is absurd. That'd be a 4 game suspension. Are you kidding me? 4 games for sticking your leg out? 4 games is what you get if you punch a guy in the face. Literally, that is the punishment for fighting on the court.

He'll be back after VT unless he acts like a child in practice.

[Atldukie79]

The good: Grayson gets to deal with issues without the spotlight. The howling, reactionary 24/7 commentary will be temporarily sated.

The bad: Reentry will be difficult. the heightened scrutiny will make it all the more difficult for Allen to deal with the issues. Not only is he a marked man, but other teams know they can push him around because he can't push back. He must adopt a stoic countenance rather than an emotionally charged one. Not sure that can happen.

The Ugly: Jay Williams and Seth Greenberg were the proxy for the "angry mob". They themselves are emotionally charged people who sit on the sidelines and fan the flames, acting indignantly to what has transpired. Their argument for a suspension is legitimate, whether I agree or not. But their reason seems to be based in punitive punishment rather than in constructive rehab. Shame on them. The "angry mob" always wants retribution...and ratings.

[uh_no]

That's what he says. But, let me be clear, I didn't believe it when he said last night, and I don't believe it now. Opinions may differ.

Sigh. if 37 years doesn't earn you the privilege of being taken at your word or not caring what anyone else thinks, then what does?

[cato]

I am sure K was moved to take action after the harsh criticism from Seth Greenberg.

I thought it was all the DBR posters who said they would not respect K if he didn't act.

[Rich]

I don't think K really cares what the public thinks. His comments at the press conference last night indicate that.

Perhaps not about himself, but I'm sure he does care about the Duke brand that he's taken years and painstaking efforts to build.

[Ggallagher]

I think "Doesn't meet Duke's standards" sends a real strong message. If I recall correctly, the last player that heard that from Coach K suited up for Maryland in his next game.

[dyedwab]

Sigh. if 37 years doesn't earn you the privilege of being taken at your word or not caring what anyone else thinks, then what does?

When it comes to how he responds to public reactions to Duke, I believe that K is opaque. And I think he's being honest when he says he doesn't care what people think, etc. I just believe that as a high profile person in a high profile institution public perception by definition becomes part of the decision-making process. He said what he believed and what he had to say. I just never think things like "I don't care what the public reaction is" are ever true.

[Wander]

Oh man, I hope Coach brings Grayson back for VaTech. It is an "indefinite" suspension, afterall. It could be 30 games, it could be 0 games.

This thought has crossed my mind too. I give it a solid 30% chance of happening.

[NashvilleDevil]

Agreed. Coach K handled this perfectly in my opinion. He had time to carefully consider the situation after the game and make a decision. I believe Duke's standards should be higher than the ACC, and I would not have wanted to see the ACC step in and make a suspension.

I am very sad for Grayson and this is obviously the last thing I wanted to see with this year's team.

At this point I just don't want this to be another distraction for this year's team. When is he coming back? Is he coming back? Will he be back in time for the tourney? I don't want a Grayson tripping vigil. I don't know Grayson and K does. So I fully trust however K handles it. To focus on this year's team - my opinion is I'd like to see Grayson suspended for the rest of this season. I'd like to see him continue to receive the full support of his teammates and coaches. I love that he can practice. Take anger management classes and practice recognizing triggers, choosing a competing response, using some quiet relaxation breaths, and make sure it never happens again. Play with passion, and master that passion to never let it explode into dirty play. Recognize that it's a choice and he can choose to calm himself down and do the right thing even in the moment. Don't let the anger get to the point of no return. Master it.

If Grayson wants to return to Duke next year, I'd welcome him back (just not as a captain). If he wants to move on - I'd support him fully and help him prepare for his next step. I think he'll be a great NBA player. Thankfully - I'm not Coach K, I don't know Grayson, and I support whatever K does.

I'm devastated this has happened to Grayson and our team. But K's timely response makes me very proud to be a Duke fan. Grayson IS a great kid, and I know he will beat this. He has the best sports psychologist, teacher, and mentor the sports world has ever seen.

Your take that he should be suspended the rest of the year is sort of ridiculous. How does that help him or the team? That type of suspension would be warranted if he you know, punched someone like Joe Mixon at oklahoma did.

[duke74]

The good: Grayson gets to deal with issues without the spotlight. The howling, reactionary 24/7 commentary will be temporarily sated.

The bad: Reentry will be difficult. the heightened scrutiny will make it all the more difficult for Allen to deal with the issues. Not only is he a marked man, but other teams know they can push him around because he can't push back. He must adopt a stoic countenance rather than an emotionally charged one. Not sure that can happen.

The Ugly: Jay Williams and Seth Greenberg were the proxy for the "angry mob". They themselves are emotionally charged people who sit on the sidelines and fan the flames, acting indignantly to what has transpired. Their argument for a suspension is legitimate, whether I agree or not. But their reason seems to be based in punitive punishment rather than in constructive rehab. Shame on them. The "angry mob" always wants retribution...and ratings.

Agree...hence my "head on the pike comment" upthread.

[FerryFor50]

HOLD UP!!??

Into the bunker everybody, it's the sign of the Apocalypse!!

It's over.

[ChillinDuke]

I'm just a fan, so I support whatever decision Coach K makes. If there had been no suspension, that would've been fine with me, too (and sort of fun, just to see media heads explode). As he said in his presser, he's the one that knows Grayson and is responsible for him and will therefore have the best judgment as to what to do.

This is well and succinctly said, and I agree with this sentiment.

To me, these situations feel like other parents telling a father how to reprimand his child. Grayson received the punishment that fit the crime while in the game. Now it's time for Father K to use whatever he deems necessary to further get the point across. If that's an "indefinite suspension," so be it. But if it was nothing, so be it. Everyone telling K what to do is crazy, and I highly doubt that influenced his decision. Just like it didn't move the needle last season, I doubt it moved the needle here.

My personal opinion on Grayson has unfortunately been hurt badly by this incident. I can't defend it. And while I honestly think way too many people are way too over-the-top on an event that, on its face, is simply not that deplorable in the grand scheme, the body of evidence does call into question his character. So in my opinion, while I can't personally get up in arms over someone that has a "tripping" problem, it's enough to drop him from the top of my list of current favorite players. And that, in itself, is sad to me.

Sigh.

- Chilin

ETA: Hasn't Ndamukong Suh stomped on people repeatedly in the NFL? Draymond Green? Etc.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

So will there be constant debates as to whether game(s) he misses count on his permanent record like with the games K missed in 1995?

[Indoor66]

Maybe the DBR blood letting can cease. The pound of flesh appears to have been rendered. May the moral indignation and pontificating cease.

[Billy Dat]

This. The outburst and lack of impulse control is FAR worse than the action or any of the 3 actions combined.

Totally agree. I think this is more about "no one is bigger than the team" than a tripping punishment. Whether Grayson can control himself or not, and I think there is strong evidence to suggest that he can't, this is the last thing the team needed right now. If, per K's pre-tripping words, the injuries have put us somewhere in October instead of December, what does this suspension do? Grayson is a captain, and right now he's the reason the Duke Hatred Tsunami is in full swing. JJ Redick took every ugly shot from opponents and their fans for years and never retaliated. That's a high standard to uphold, but it's the standard that has been set. I am sure the freshmen on the squad, all dealing with injuries during this year, are thinking about their NBA draft status/minutes/shine and by lowering the boom on Grayson, in a parallel to the Rasheed situation, K is sending a loud message that the team comes first - get on the bus or we'll leave you at the station. To repeat what's been said, I hope that it may be the moment that tempers our steel.

Or, maybe he just read Dana O'Neil's article and realized he was wrong to be a d-word last night during the press conference. It's useful that she can fan the flames with a "Grayson Allen is the next Hated White Duke Player" article and then tell K how he needs to behave.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Oh man, I hope Coach brings Grayson back for VaTech. It is an "indefinite" suspension, afterall. It could be 30 games, it could be 0 games.

I think that would be a very bad idea. This is a great opportunity for Grayson to see how his absence affects the team, to see how much he is needed on the court, and how his actions on the court translate to real consequences.
His outburst was far more disconcerting for me than the trip was, and that was pretty disconcerting on its own. Grayson obviously has some issues going on inside his head; hopefully, working with those in the program and family at home over the holiday break, he can get himself healthy and in a better place.

[Rich]

Do people truly think this is something that Grayson can actually control in the heat of the game? I know he's supposed to, but I am someone who has, at times, had a short fuse when provoked, I really don't think he can control his actions...and I'm 50! His tantrum on the bench, in my opinion, was recognition that he royally screwed up and complete frustration that he knew better, but couldn't do better. While he was blaming that it was a bad call, he knew deep down what he had done.

Coach K had to issue a suspension to protect the team and the Duke brand. It's the right move, but I think we're kidding ourselves if we think this is going to cure Grayson. This is who he is. I just don't see this resolving itself (at least not in the short term) and he will be Target 1 for opposing teams' provocation. Frankly, I will be surprised if this doesn't rear its ugly head later in the season.

[BD80]

Everyone seems to be ignoring the most important issue:

HOW WILL THIS AFFECT THE MINUTES DISTRIBUTION????

The suspension won't impact Grayson's mpg, but it will increase Tatum's and Jackson's and likely Giles'.

Didn't Coach K even consider the DBR minutes contest or the countless hours of argument before suspending Grayson? SMH ...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I am fine with it- K's choice. Allen made it worse with the outburst - that is more concerning and I think also for K. That is not how a player reacts to a tech. Allen has had a frustrating season so far and I think this was the culmination of a lot of stress. I also think this is also for the other players as much as Grayson. I think there may some sulking going on and that also needs to stop. The break is coming- the team may face some adversity in the early ACC season- but it is all about peaking late.

I agree on this 100%. The trip/kick was disappointing. The reaction was rabid and upsetting.

Kid needs to get a little perspective on basketball.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Everyone seems to be ignoring the most important issue:

HOW WILL THIS AFFECT THE MINUTES DISTRIBUTION????

The suspension won't impact Grayson's mpg, but it will increase Tatum's and Jackson's and likely Giles'.

Didn't Coach K even consider the DBR minutes contest or the countless hours of argument before suspending Grayson? SMH ...

The minutes contest this year has been a sort of fascinating sidenote. Wonder if someone would have been well-served to do some sort of Price is Right maneuver and just project 20 minutes for each of the top ten players.

[MChambers]

I'm so glad the team took this step promptly before the ACC or anyone else did.

I feel the same way.

[uh_no]

Everyone seems to be ignoring the most important issue:

HOW WILL THIS AFFECT THE MINUTES DISTRIBUTION????

The suspension won't impact Grayson's mpg, but it will increase Tatum's and Jackson's and likely Giles'.

Didn't Coach K even consider the DBR minutes contest or the countless hours of argument before suspending Grayson? SMH ...

This was K's out to figure out how to get Giles and Bolden more minutes. I can't see it any other way! :D

[MChambers]

Do people truly think this is something that Grayson can actually control in the heat of the game? I know he's supposed to, but I am someone who has, at times, had a short fuse when provoked, I really don't think he can control his actions...and I'm 50! His tantrum on the bench, in my opinion, was recognition that he royally screwed up and complete frustration that he knew better, but couldn't do better. While he was blaming that it was a bad call, he knew deep down what he had done.

Coach K had to issue a suspension to protect the team and the Duke brand. It's the right move, but I think we're kidding ourselves if we think this is going to cure Grayson. This is who he is. I just don't see this resolving itself (at least not in the short term) and he will be Target 1 for opposing teams' provocation. Frankly, I will be surprised if this doesn't rear its ugly head later in the season.

I don't think it will be easy, but, yes, he can learn to control this. Our minds are more flexible and trainable than you might think. I don't know what sort of formal steps Grayson has taken, but I think there are things he can do, with the help of professionals.

He's got to learn to control it, if he wants to continue playing.

[kAzE]

First off, the suspension is the right move. My guess is that Grayson will miss around 5 games. This isn't the worst thing that could have happened. Obviously, it sucks, but at least nobody got injured, including anyone from Elon. If it's true that Grayson will be allowed to practice, that's really good news. He won't be on the floor for games, but at least the team will continue to gel and develop chemistry in practice.

The next thing that needs to be addressed is the root of this problem. I don't think Grayson is a bad guy. Any time you see interviews with him off the court, or really in any non-competitive setting, he's a nice kid. He's very chill. He just psychs himself into a frenzy when he's on the basketball court and can't control himself. People who don't follow Duke just assume he's this thug now, and this extremely negative view of him is being perpetuated by the a-holes over at ESPN.

Whatever the case may be, Grayson does need outside help. I'm not going to pretend like I know what's best for him, but some sort of psychologist could be helpful to get rid of whatever instinct it is that makes him trip other players. He knows he's not supposed to do it, and I don't think he's trying to hurt anyone, but he's still doing it . . .

Very disappointing. I think it goes without saying that this most likely costs him any chance at POY or AA honors, and probably any shot he had at having his jersey retired. It's been a brutal year for Grayson, but hopefully he takes this suspension in stride and comes back better from it. There are still championships to play for, and we're not anywhere close to as good of a team as we could be without Grayson.

[richardjackson199]

Your take that he should be suspended the rest of the year is sort of ridiculous. How does that help him or the team? That type of suspension would be warratend if he you know, punched someone like Joe Mixon at oklahoma did.

Like I said - my opinion may be wrong. It may be ridiculous. I do respect that. I trust and fully support whatever K believes is the right thing to do. He's in the best position to make the call, and he has shown time and again outstanding judgment.

Suspending Grayson for the year would probably not help the team. Grayson is one of our best players and he makes his teammates better when he is on the floor with them. He has been one of our best players setting up teammates. It would only help the team by showing them that playing basketball for Duke is a privilege that can be lost when you don't play by Duke basketball standards.

I don't care what players at other schools did or how they were punished. To me that is completely irrelevant. I'm proud that Duke's standards are not the same as clearly UNC's standards. Doing things the right way is even more important than winning or championships.

Grayson received a reprimand from the ACC for repeated dirty play. He started this season with several interviews stating he had learned and matured from it. He said it would not happen again because that is not who he is. It happened a 3rd time before conference play started. The 3rd time repeated dirty behavior is the only thing that makes an indefinite (and in my opinion full season) suspension justified. Tripping somebody once is a dirty play and unacceptable. It's a mistake that should not be repeated. Is it as bad as punching them in the face or slamming their head into the floor? No. Not even close. But tripping people 3 separate times after being publicly reprimanded is unacceptable behavior for a Duke basketball player.

I think Duke should do everything they can to help Grayson overcome this. I was wrong to say he should be dismissed from the team. I already like K's response much better. I love that he can practice, be supported by his teammates, and take whatever time he needs to master this.

I strongly disagreed with Seth Greenberg and the things he was saying about K. However, I do think Dana O'Neill had it mostly right with this thoughtful take before Duke announced their decision:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18328811/duke-blue-devils-coach-mike-krzyzewski-needs-suspend-grayson-allen

K got it right. Hoping for the absolute best for Grayson and for Duke. We still have an outstanding team this year regardless of when or if Allen returns.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I don't think it will be easy, but, yes, he can learn to control this. Our minds are more flexible and trainable than you might think. I don't know what sort of formal steps Grayson has taken, but I think there are things he can do, with the help of professionals.

He's got to learn to control it, if he wants to continue playing.

My gf is a child psychologist, she works with young kids with behavior issues. Kids that lash out at other kids in school, or at teachers. They get physical with those around them, punching, kicking, screaming. These are kids that for whatever reason, are wired "wrong". When I saw Grayson's meltdown, I immediately thought of her patients. His reaction wasn't a normal one in any sense, and it seemed he had little control over it himself. The kick itself may be a sign of a similar scenario.
However, my girlfriend wouldn't be in her line of work for over 25 years if she wasn't able to help her patients. I agree with MChambers, he can learn to control this. For all we know, his emotional outbursts may be something he's lived with all his life, and he does control them. What I saw last night didn't seem to be the result of a one off instance, but a symptom of something deeper.
If that's the case, then like my girlfriend's patients, he's not a bad person or a dirty player, he's simply got things going on his head that aren't visible like a physical affliction is. Regardless of if that is true or not, he needs to learn to control himself better on the court, and part of that learning is dealing with consequences.

[Dukehky]

First off, the suspension is the right move. My guess is that Grayson will miss around 5 games. This isn't the worst thing that could have happened. Obviously, it sucks, but at least nobody got injured, including anyone from Elon. If it's true that Grayson will be allowed to practice, that's really good news. He won't be on the floor for games, but at least the team will continue to gel and develop chemistry in practice.

The next thing that needs to be addressed is the root of this problem. I don't think Grayson is a bad guy. Any time you see interviews with him off the court, or really in any non-competitive setting, he's a nice kid. He's very chill. He just psychs himself into a frenzy when he's on the basketball court and can't control himself. People who don't follow Duke just assume he's this thug now, and this extremely negative view of him is being perpetuated by the a-holes over at ESPN.

Whatever the case may be, Grayson does need outside help. I'm not going to pretend like I know what's best for him, but some sort of psychologist could be helpful to get rid of whatever instinct it is that makes him trip other players. He knows he's not supposed to do it, and I don't think he's trying to hurt anyone, but he's still doing it . . .

Very disappointing. I think it goes without saying that this most likely costs him any chance at POY or AA honors, and probably any shot he had at having his jersey retired. It's been a brutal year for Grayson, but hopefully he takes this suspension in stride and comes back better from it. There are still championships to play for, and we're not anywhere close to as good of a team as we could be without Grayson.



5 GAMES!!!!???? THE WHOLE SEASON?!??!?!?!?!? I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS. Is it worse to "trip" someone three times (never in a position where someone could get hurt) or hit someone in the face with your fist? Hitting someone in the face with your fist only gets you a 4 game suspension.

This is all so sanctimonious. I don't know if he needs outside help, neither do any of you, if I want arm chair psychologists I'll watch Skip Bayless talk about the "clutch gene." This past 12 hours, the board has turned into a bunch of Skip Baylesses. Get some perspective. I'm sorry if mean Carolina fans are bashing Duke, but this isn't that bad.

Again, Gerald Henderson got one game for doing something that really could have seriously injured someone (or thing, depending on your viewpoint of that neanderthal). This is not that big of a deal. The kid stuck his leg out.

[4xduke]

Spelling correct - just saw it on Canadian Sportscentre, including K's remarks during press conference. However no mention of suspension.

[Bluedog]

CNN has five sports headlines on its front page -- 2 are about GA! Whatever gets clicks I guess.

I certainly agree that what he did was wrong and he deserves punishment, but the amount of media attention is pretty ridiculous.

Not a great situation...hopefully, he is able to get through this, learn from it, and put it behind him, but I honestly have my doubts about this not impacting his psyche going forward. I can't imagine the intense scrutiny he's going to face going forward. I felt like last time this happened it definitely impacted his intensity on the court and he was just distracted at times/not himself. If we want to eventually see the full potential of GA later in the season, there is a psychological hurdle that will have to be overcome that won't be that easy.


Again, Gerald Henderson got one game for doing something that really could have seriously injured someone (or thing, depending on your viewpoint of that neanderthal). This is not that big of a deal. The kid stuck his leg out.

G broke Hansbrough's nose...he wore a mask the entire NCAA tournament basically. I agree that 1 or maybe 2 games seems about right. 5 games would be absolutely ridiculous.

[OldPhiKap]

Spelling correct - just saw it on Canadian Sportscentre, including K's remarks during press conference. However no mention of suspension.

Canada makes sense, given that Ted Cruz was born there and all.

[Dukehky]

CNN has five sports headlines on its front page -- 2 are about GA! Whatever gets clicks I guess.

I certainly agree that what he did was wrong and he deserves punishment, but the amount of media attention is pretty ridiculous.

Not a great situation...hopefully, he is able to get through this, learn from it, and put it behind him, but I honestly have my doubts about this not impacting his psyche going forward. I can't imagine the intense scrutiny he's going to face going forward. I felt like last time this happened it definitely impacted his intensity on the court and he was just distracted at times/not himself. If we want to eventually see the full potential of GA later in the season, there is a psychological hurdle that will have to be overcome that won't be that easy.



G broke Hansbrough's nose...he wore a mask the entire NCAA tournament basically. I agree that 1 or maybe 2 games seems about right. 5 games would be absolutely ridiculous.

Gerald Henderson threw his entire weight into Hansbrough's face. Could have broken his neck or given him serious head injury. I'm not sure if you were saying that the broken nose wasn't a serious injury. I think if the injury was worse, G would have gotten more time.


I digress

[COYS]

I have a couple thoughts on this.

It seems perfectly reasonable to suspend Grayson at this point and I'm glad K and the staff took that approach not because of media scrutiny but because it's clearly needed for both Grayson and the team.

This is clearly some sort of impulse control thing for Grayson so I hope that there is some sort of conversation with a psychologist/anger-management-specialist/impulse-control-specialist involved with the suspension.

While it is absolutely unacceptable behavior, we're still not really talking about anything truly terrible. This was mentioned after last season's incidents, but you could make a compelling argument that Justise Winslow's fondness for using the nether-regions of opposing players for a little extra lift on his dunk attempts was certainly more calculated and quite possibly more dangerous than anything Grayson has done. A suspension is still warranted, but

I agree with the other posters who have mentioned that Grayson's reaction AFTER the foul was actually far more concerning.

The fact that the suspension is indefinite seems to me to hint at the likelihood that the staff was also more concerned with his reaction after the fact than the actual event and wants him to demonstrate some sort of commitment to working past these impulses before he steps back out on the court. It's not just an issue for Grayson, individually, but for the entire team. I hope it's a rehabilitative suspension rather than punitive.



One last thought from a completely different perspective: I think Grayson's situation is a great example of why it would be useful for the players to have a union or at least some entity that is there to negotiate on behalf of Grayson, or other players in his situation. The NBA has pretty clear-cut disciplinary procedures for situations like this (see: Green, Draymond) which prevents players from sitting in limbo or receiving unduly harsh punishments for relatively minor infractions. Grayson definitely deserves a suspension. But "indefinitely" could be a long time. I really do believe K and the staff have Grayson's best interests at heart and therefore don't think the suspension will be unjustly long or anything like that. But other players in his situation could see their entire career sidetracked because a coach feels like making an example of an amateur athlete, especially when media scrutiny can play a role. It's ridiculous to me that Jay Williams suggestion of a five game suspension could somehow actually influence the punishment for a player (you have to do something really, truly awful to get a five game suspension in the NBA . . . and that's with longer seasons AND with professional athletes). Again, I'm not saying that the media has any influence whatsoever on how K and the staff handle Grayson's situation. I don't think its a factor, at all. However, it COULD affect another player so having some disciplinary guidelines that are normalized across NCAA basketball could be really useful.

[Bluedog]

Gerald Henderson threw his entire weight into Hansbrough's face. Could have broken his neck or given him serious head injury. I'm not sure if you were saying that the broken nose wasn't a serious injury. I think if the injury was worse, G would have gotten more time.

I digress

Right, I am saying it WAS a (decently) serious injury. You said it "could have seriously injured someone." I simply was saying not that it could have, but that it in fact did. I think we're aligned. ;)

[Dukehky]

I have a couple thoughts on this.

It seems perfectly reasonable to suspend Grayson at this point and I'm glad K and the staff took that approach not because of media scrutiny but because it's clearly needed for both Grayson and the team.

This is clearly some sort of impulse control thing for Grayson so I hope that there is some sort of conversation with a psychologist/anger-management-specialist/impulse-control-specialist involved with the suspension.

While it is absolutely unacceptable behavior, we're still not really talking about anything truly terrible. This was mentioned after last season's incidents, but you could make a compelling argument that Justise Winslow's fondness for using the nether-regions of opposing players for a little extra lift on his dunk attempts was certainly more calculated and quite possibly more dangerous than anything Grayson has done. A suspension is still warranted, but

I agree with the other posters who have mentioned that Grayson's reaction AFTER the foul was actually far more concerning.

The fact that the suspension is indefinite seems to me to hint at the likelihood that the staff was also more concerned with his reaction after the fact than the actual event and wants him to demonstrate some sort of commitment to working past these impulses before he steps back out on the court. It's not just an issue for Grayson, individually, but for the entire team. I hope it's a rehabilitative suspension rather than punitive.



One last thought from a completely different perspective: I think Grayson's situation is a great example of why it would be useful for the players to have a union or at least some entity that is there to negotiate on behalf of Grayson, or other players in his situation. The NBA has pretty clear-cut disciplinary procedures for situations like this (see: Green, Draymond) which prevents players from sitting in limbo or receiving unduly harsh punishments for relatively minor infractions. Grayson definitely deserves a suspension. But "indefinitely" could be a long time. I really do believe K and the staff have Grayson's best interests at heart and therefore don't think the suspension will be unjustly long or anything like that. But other players in his situation could see their entire career sidetracked because a coach feels like making an example of an amateur athlete, especially when media scrutiny can play a role. It's ridiculous to me that Jay Williams suggestion of a five game suspension could somehow actually influence the punishment for a player (you have to do something really, truly awful to get a five game suspension in the NBA . . . and that's with longer seasons AND with professional athletes). Again, I'm not saying that the media has any influence whatsoever on how K and the staff handle Grayson's situation. I don't think its a factor, at all. However, it COULD affect another player so having some disciplinary guidelines that are normalized across NCAA basketball could be really useful.

I can almost guarantee you that he and Coach K know exactly when Grayson is going to be back. Saying "indefinite" is a PR move.

[Kfanarmy]

... However, I do think Dana O'Neill had it mostly right with this thoughtful take before Duke announced their decision:

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18328811/duke-blue-devils-coach-mike-krzyzewski-needs-suspend-grayson-allen


Yeah...I think there's a bit of slight of hand while retaining the whole arrogant press stance that they get to dictate what right and wrong are and what the coach ought to do in any situation...essentially says "of course K shouldn't do what other people think, he should do what I think and here's why..."

unfortunate situation. I don't think GA was the only one at fault in this situation, but he entered it from a very precarious position.

[UrinalCake]

5 GAMES!!!!???? THE WHOLE SEASON?!??!?!?!?!? I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS. Is it worse to "trip" someone three times (never in a position where someone could get hurt) or hit someone in the face with your fist? Hitting someone in the face with your fist only gets you a 4 game suspension.

Yeah I think five games is a little ridiculous, but you have to take into context his history. He was never punished for any of the previous incidents, but I think the ACC would still view him as a "repeat offender." If this was his first time doing anything like this then that would be a different story. But I also think there are two separate considerations here. From the ACC's point of view, they're looking at the kick/trip and how it pertains to his actions on the court. From Coach K's point of view, he's probably equally if not more concerned about Allen's reaction on the bench afterwards in which he was out of control and appeared to be yelling at the coaches. That's the kind of thing that would earn a longer suspension from K. I hate to say it but a lot of Allen's behavior reminds me of Sulaimon as far as his body language and reactions to the refs. Hopefully he will be responsive to the coaching staff so he can get back on the right track.

My guess is that he sits for the next two games (VT and GT) and maybe the next game vs. BC. But a lot depends on his conversations with K and the coaches and how he responds.

[BandAlum83]

I am assuming that the suspension is indefinite because there are certain milestones Grayson needs to acheive in order to be reinstated.

The timeline will be up to Grayson as he work with a psychologist, his coaches and the team to rehabilitate himself and demonstrate his ability to control his actions/reactions in stressful situations.

5 on 5 contact drills, sessions with therapists and coaches, and building trust with his teammates will all be part of this.

Quite a few will have to "sign off" on letting him compete again, and his teammates will probably have to come to a consensus also.

Will that take a week? 4 weeks? All season? Grayson will ultimately determine that. It will take time and transcends basketball for a young man who will soon be a millionaire. Face this now, get straight and succeed moving forward.

I'm confident he can do the work.

[fuse]

Wow.

For kicks and grins I looked at the NCAA rulebook.

Tripping is called out as a foul in rule 10 article 1, and there is various language around foot extension in article 18, as well as relevant context in Section 5 article2, 7, 11, and 17.

If you are willing to say tripping is considered fighting, then there are rules related to fighting, ejection and suspension for 1 game, multiple games, and rest of season, with caveats that conference offices can take more action at their discretion.

Grayson's behaviour is wrong and not something the Duke program or fans want to see or tolerate.

By the letter of the rules, a trip is either a foul or flagrant one.

Unless the NCAA changes tripping to a flagrant 2, all this angst is media generated.

Do I agree with or like what Grayson has done? No.
Do I think additional discipline is warranted for a technical foul? No.
Do I respect K for doing the right thing and handling it to his standards? Absolutely.

[Newton_14]

First, I'm glad K took this action, and I was disappointed actually, when K sent Grayson back into the game last night. (But in fairness, K waited until he could see the event in full on replay before making his decision. That's fair) We all knew the minute we saw it that the media and interwebs were going to explode with glee and both Grayson and K would get crucified and stoned to death after the crucifixion just to be fully sure they are completely dead. From the seat I was sitting in last night, I had a clear view of the play, and saw it clearly when it happened live. My heart just sank to the pit of my stomach. I leaned over and told my buddy that Grayson clearly tripped the guy on purpose, so here we go again! uggh!

That said, I feel that it is important to not over rotate on this like the media will surely do. As Duke fans, we should not join the lynch mobs. I will forever be convinced the melt down came from Grayson immediately understanding the gravity of what he had just done to himself, his teammates, the program, and his school. Yeah he might have hurled some expletives at the ref or Santa Ana, but in his heart of hearts he knew immediately he had just screwed up in a very big way. I think sitting 1 or 2 games is fair, but I also feel Grayson needs Professional Counseling much like Andre Dawkins did. Even though it's two totally different situations, Grayson needs the help. I believe Grayson to be a very good kid, with a very bad temper that he struggles mightily to control. He's human. We should denounce the action from last night, but also give the kid our full support, and pull for him to overcome this demon he battles. His fuel is competitive fire and passion and as we know that is both good and bad for him. We should not join the lynch mob that wants him flogged and kicked off this team or any future team forever. I also want to say one thing about this "dirty player" label. In my own humble opinion, a dirty player does what Grayson did when they aren't angry and in the heat of the moment. Dirty players take cheap shots in an attempt to injure or at the least not care if it leads to an injury. In my view that is not Grayson.

Anyway, we should accept the length of suspension K chooses, acknowledge that no matter what length K chooses, the haters will say it isn't enough, K only cares about winning, blah blah blah, and support our player, and hope he overcomes this issue he has once and for all.

My two cents..

[duketaylor]

I don't think it will be easy, but, yes, he can learn to control this. Our minds are more flexible and trainable than you might think. I don't know what sort of formal steps Grayson has taken, but I think there are things he can do, with the help of professionals.

He's got to learn to control it, if he wants to continue playing.

I spent 7 years working with Dr. Bob Rotella and some time with Dr. Larry Eimers just to improve my ability to control thought processes. Ability to understand and control emotions is powerful. I just want Grayson to get some help. Good time for the break, IMO.

I'm glad K took control as he did. Happy Holidays to all!!

[Matches]

I am assuming that the suspension is indefinite because there are certain milestones Grayson needs to acheive in order to be reinstated.



Agreed. I suspect K has a minimum in mind (2 games seems fair to me but YMMV), but couching the suspension as indefinite allows for it to be longer if the coaches are not satisfied that Grayson is making the appropriate progress towards correcting his behavior.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I am assuming that the suspension is indefinite because there are certain milestones Grayson needs to acheive in order to be reinstated.

The timeline will be up to Grayson as he work with a psychologist, his coaches and the team to rehabilitate himself and demonstrate his ability to control his actions/reactions in stressful situations.

5 on 5 contact drills, sessions with therapists and coaches, and building trust with his teammates will all be part of this.

Quite a few will have to "sign off" on letting him compete again, and his teammates will probably have to come to a consensus also.

Will that take a week? 4 weeks? All season? Grayson will ultimately determine that. It will take time and transcends basketball for a young man who will soon be a millionaire. Face this now, get straight and succeed moving forward.

I'm confident he can do the work.

Arrgh, can't spork you due to too much recent sporkage, however I think what you've written is a great scenario and a likely one. Grayson has my confidence as well, looking forward to seeing him back on the court, healthy and a better teammate.

[Jeffrey]

Ability to understand and control emotions is powerful.

Extremely powerful and beneficial in every component of a person's life!

Our players are very fortunate and prudent to have Coach K and Duke resources. Their future will be much better as a result of their decision where to play.

[cruxer]

Yeah...I think there's a bit of slight of hand while retaining the whole arrogant press stance that they get to dictate what right and wrong are and what the coach ought to do in any situation...essentially says "of course K shouldn't do what other people think, he should do what I think and here's why..."

unfortunate situation. I don't think GA was the only one at fault in this situation, but he entered it from a very precarious position.

Not to mention that I believe she was the same "journalist" that named GA the next white villain at Duke for the egregious offense of bailing us out in the national championship. At that point of his career he hadn't played enough minutes to trip anybody. So I'm not really open to reading any moralizing from her.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

I am sure K was moved to take action after the harsh criticism from Seth Greenberg.

Surely you jest.
Love, Ima

[fuse]

In an attempt to add some levity to this thread, is an indefinite suspension the basketball coach equivalent addressing the media to Maximus in Gladiator's "Are you not entertained?"

[ipatent]

I'm a Duke grad and fan who has stood in awe for thirty years as Coach K has take the program to heights that most people in the early '80s would have thought impossible. I don't know Grayson personally. It is only basketball, but I find the disconnect between the incident on the court last night and his subsequent behavior to be inexplicable. Perhaps there are other things happening in his life that we don't know about. I hope that he can get his act together and be successful not only as an athlete but as a friend, husband, father and Duke grad when his playing days are over.

[MChambers]

This thought has crossed my mind too. I give it a solid 30% chance of happening.

I doubt this happens. I'd guess he misses at least two games, quite possibly more.

[dukelifer]

Wow.

For kicks and grins I looked at the NCAA rulebook.

Tripping is called out as a foul in rule 10 article 1, and there is various language around foot extension in article 18, as well as relevant context in Section 5 article2, 7, 11, and 17.

If you are willing to say tripping is considered fighting, then there are rules related to fighting, ejection and suspension for 1 game, multiple games, and rest of season, with caveats that conference offices can take more action at their discretion.

Grayson's behaviour is wrong and not something the Duke program or fans want to see or tolerate.

By the letter of the rules, a trip is either a foul or flagrant one.

Unless the NCAA changes tripping to a flagrant 2, all this angst is media generated.

Do I agree with or like what Grayson has done? No.
kl I think additional discipline is warranted for a technical foul? No.
Do I respect K for doing the right thing and handling it to his standards? Absolutely.
I think the tripping was not what got Grayson the suspension from K - it was his reaction. He lost his cool over it and took that anger to the bench. Grayson looked like he was as mad at himself as anything, because he knew this was going to start everything over again. Grayson is intense on the court. We have all played with or against people with that gene. But everyone on this board knows or should know- without that emotion and intensity Duke likely loses against Wisconsin in 2015- emotion is not easy to control when you are still a kid- and brain development-wise he is still a kid.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Maybe the DBR blood letting can cease. The pound of flesh appears to have been rendered. May the moral indignation and pontificating cease.

Wow. You are profoundly deep, Indoor. And rather poetic to boot. :o
Love, Ima

[burnspbesq]

To the extent that discipline comparables from other sports are relevant, they argue for a suspension of no more than one game.

Chase Utley got two games for breaking Ruben Tejada's leg.

Nigel de Jong wasn't even sent off for kicking Xabi Alonso in the chest--although after the fact, the referee admitted that he should have been.

Duke's Chris Hipps got a two-minute, non-releasable penalty for slashing a Tarheel player in the nuts (for the record, he should been given the freedom of the city of Durham).

There was no injury, and I think it's clear that there was no intent to injure. Grayson's outburst after the call pales by comparison to what Earl Weaver did once a month, and to what we see in La Liga every time a penalty is called.

Red card. One game.

[BD80]

... Duke's Chris Hipps got a two-minute, non-releasable penalty for slashing a Tarheel player in the nuts. ...

Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!

[Pghdukie]

What troubles me more is the fact that none of GA's TEAMMATES stepped in to help. On the court or on the sidelines. Shows me that the squad hasn't jelled into a TEAM. Players always tell each other "I got your back" especially on defense. I SEEN NONE OF THAT.
Just my .02 worth.

[duke79]

I'm a Duke grad and fan who has stood in awe for thirty years as Coach K has take the program to heights that most people in the early '80s would have thought impossible. I don't know Grayson personally. It is only basketball, but I find the disconnect between the incident on the court last night and his subsequent behavior to be inexplicable. Perhaps there are other things happening in his life that we don't know about. I hope that he can get his act together and be successful not only as an athlete but as a friend, husband, father and Duke grad when his playing days are over.

Agree with you here! I have mixed feelings about the whole situation. First (and obviously), he should NOT be tripping anyone on the court (intentionally), at any time and in any game or practice. From what I could see last night on the replays of the "incidence", it looked to me like he definitely tried to trip the Elon player at the end of that play, out of frustration. He SHOULD be punished for his transgressions. No doubt.

But, on the other hand, I also feel sorry for GA. Obviously, something goes on in his head while he is playing, that he can't fully control (I guess?). I'm no psychologist but it appears that he gets so wrapped up in the emotional competitiveness of the game, that he does some things without much forethought (such as tripping his opponents, intentionally but infrequently). Reminds me a little of John McEnroe, in his competitive tennis days, when he would suddenly lose all self-control over a bad call. It was almost like he couldn't stop himself from going ballistic (at times). And I also found GA's post-incidence reaction to be a little bizarre and embarrassing. Unfortunately, this whole affair will just give the "haters" more ammunition and will make GA the poster boy for everyone who wants to trash Duke and their players.

I hope he gets his act together FAST!

[SlapTheFloor]

I'm amazed at all the people on this thread who seem to care how this will play out in the media. I have a simple mantra for Duke hate: I don't care if you like us. Just so long as you lose. As for the suspension, I would think and hope this is not about perception so much as about teaching Grayson. He has to learn to control his emotions on the court. Yes, teams are going to get physical with him, but, to a large degree, they do it because they know it works. He loses his cool and either gets a technical or, at least, gets thrown off his game.

[dyedwab]

Those who have been arguing that it was Grayson's reaction that prompted the suspension from Coach K are correct.

See the following tweet from Adam Rowe re: K's appearance on the Dan Patrick show

https://twitter.com/AdamRoweTDD/status/811972864081612801

[Reilly]

... Gerald Henderson got one game for doing something that really could have seriously injured someone ... This is not that big of a deal. The kid stuck his leg out.

I disagree that GH's actions were worse than GA's, if that's what you're saying. In my opinion, GHenderson made a basketball play -- trying to block a shot, with authority. Nothing more, nothing less, and TH moved and the blood happened. That's how I saw that one and many others did too (not to reopen that debate -- guess there's a thread around here somewhere laying out the views of many who saw it that way, while others disagreed). I don't see anyone positing that GA's trips or reaction last night was in any way 'OK' or legitimate, whereas a lot see Gerald's block that way.

[richardjackson199]

First, I'm glad K took this action, and I was disappointed actually, when K sent Grayson back into the game last night. (But in fairness, K waited until he could see the event in full on replay before making his decision. That's fair) We all knew the minute we saw it that the media and interwebs were going to explode with glee and both Grayson and K would get crucified and stoned to death after the crucifixion just to be fully sure they are completely dead. From the seat I was sitting in last night, I had a clear view of the play, and saw it clearly when it happened live. My heart just sank to the pit of my stomach. I leaned over and told my buddy that Grayson clearly tripped the guy on purpose, so here we go again! uggh!

That said, I feel that it is important to not over rotate on this like the media will surely do. As Duke fans, we should not join the lynch mobs. I will forever be convinced the melt down came from Grayson immediately understanding the gravity of what he had just done to himself, his teammates, the program, and his school. Yeah he might have hurled some expletives at the ref or Santa Ana, but in his heart of hearts he knew immediately he had just screwed up in a very big way. I think sitting 1 or 2 games is fair, but I also feel Grayson needs Professional Counseling much like Andre Dawkins did. Even though it's two totally different situations, Grayson needs the help. I believe Grayson to be a very good kid, with a very bad temper that he struggles mightily to control. He's human. We should denounce the action from last night, but also give the kid our full support, and pull for him to overcome this demon he battles. His fuel is competitive fire and passion and as we know that is both good and bad for him. We should not join the lynch mob that wants him flogged and kicked off this team or any future team forever. I also want to say one thing about this "dirty player" label. In my own humble opinion, a dirty player does what Grayson did when they aren't angry and in the heat of the moment. Dirty players take cheap shots in an attempt to injure or at the least not care if it leads to an injury. In my view that is not Grayson.

Anyway, we should accept the length of suspension K chooses, acknowledge that no matter what length K chooses, the haters will say it isn't enough, K only cares about winning, blah blah blah, and support our player, and hope he overcomes this issue he has once and for all.

My two cents..

This is an outstanding post.

As a double-ABPN board certified child/adolescent psychiatrist, I can say with plenty of conviction that anger explosions (and the manifested tripping behavior) are something that Grayson can learn to master and completely overcome with good psychotherapy. Cameronbornandbred and several others of you are absolutely right about this. It can feel to that person like it's something that can't be controlled. But it can be controlled, and controlling it can be learned. So it's very powerful and gratifying to see people learn to take full mastery over that passion. Trust me - it can be done. I don't know Grayson, but I'd bet the house that he has what it takes to beat this and fully master this.

I wasn't worried about Grayson's reaction to it on the bench. I thought it was pretty understandable. He probably understood deep down the gravity of what had just happened. I'd fully give him a pass on that outburst after the play.

I'm sure Grayson will get some help with this and will do great things. I fully believe he is a great person and player who will learn to manage his emotions better.

[burnspbesq]

Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!

It's a reasonable inference from the way Bitter reacted to the hit.

[AvlDukie]

Coach is on with Dan Patrick now.
Said the suspension "might be one game, or three games, or two weeks - however long it takes until I feel good about the situation".
Conversation getting a little feisty now.

[scottdude8]

I'm "happy" (if anyone can be happy about this awful situation) that Grayson is suspended. He deserves to be, and Coach K doing so means everyone is taking the necessary responsibility.

However, an "indefinite" suspension drives me INSANE. I don't understand K's need for this level of secrecy about the program (and this is coming from a former Chronicle reporter who has some first hand experience with this). When he does it with injuries it's annoying but nothing more (nonwithstanding the fact that almost every other school gives a normal timeline, see Miles Bridges with MSU recently)... but with this it makes no sense. All it does IMHO is put the team in a state of uncertainty and add fuel to the media fire.

Still, the right thing was done here (more or less), and now we all just have to hope Grayson can learn from this and the team won't be disrupted by his suspension and eventual return.

[MarkD83]

I'm a Duke grad and fan who has stood in awe for thirty years as Coach K has take the program to heights that most people in the early '80s would have thought impossible. I don't know Grayson personally. It is only basketball, but I find the disconnect between the incident on the court last night and his subsequent behavior to be inexplicable. Perhaps there are other things happening in his life that we don't know about. I hope that he can get his act together and be successful not only as an athlete but as a friend, husband, father and Duke grad when his playing days are over.

My thought is that Coach K and Grayson had a discussion this summer about the tripping incidents last year. Part of the conversation would include penalties if Grayson did anything the did not live up to Duke Basketball standards. Once Grayson received the technical I am thinking he realized that Coach K would suspend him once he reviewed the tape of the incident.

All of that being said...I am glad like most folks on this board that there is a high Duke Basketball Standard. I also hope that the entire team looks at this incident and realizes the team is more important than any individual. That realization will make this team great, not just the number of talented players on the team.

[COYS]

Nigel de Jong wasn't even sent off for kicking Xabi Alonso in the chest--although after the fact, the referee admitted that he should have been.



Nigel de Jong should be banned from football, at this point. The list of reprehensible tackles that man has inflicted on fellow professional footballers is too long to count. Plus, he robbed Stuart Holden of his blossoming career (and USMNT fans the chance to watch him dominate in midfield for a decade). Grayson is not even remotely close to de Jong territory. I totally agree with you that Grayson's actions don't amount to true sports villainy.

[burnspbesq]

Nigel de Jong should be banned from football, at this point. The list of reprehensible tackles that man has inflicted on fellow professional footballers is too long to count. Plus, he robbed Stuart Holden of his blossoming career (and USMNT fans the chance to watch him dominate in midfield for a decade). Grayson is not even remotely close to de Jong territory. I totally agree with you that Grayson's actions don't amount to true sports villainy.

He's playing in Turkey now. IMO, that's sufficient punishment.

[nmduke2001]

I agree on this 100%. The trip/kick was disappointing. The reaction was rabid and upsetting.

Kid needs to get a little perspective on basketball.

I don't think he was reacting to the call at all. I think he realized the magnitude of what just happened and how it was going to impact him. Grayson is a smart kid. He knows the bleep-storm that the first two incidents caused. Grayson said in multiple interviews that he doesn't like the role of the bad guy. Think of all the pressure that guys like Laettner and Redick had on them while at Duke. Some embrace it. Some burst. Grayson doesn't have the personality to handle that pressure. In that moment, he realized that the national media and the Duke hate was going to come down on him like never before. That's a lot to process. To me, it looked like he was about to burst into tears. Almost like a "what have a done?" sort of moment.

[FerryFor50]

Nigel de Jong should be banned from football, at this point. The list of reprehensible tackles that man has inflicted on fellow professional footballers is too long to count. Plus, he robbed Stuart Holden of his blossoming career (and USMNT fans the chance to watch him dominate in midfield for a decade). Grayson is not even remotely close to de Jong territory. I totally agree with you that Grayson's actions don't amount to true sports villainy.

Villainy includes de Jong, Marty McSorley and Todd Betuzzi for sure.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I don't think he was reacting to the call at all. I think he realized the magnitude of what just happened and how it was going to impact him. Grayson is a smart kid. He knows the bleep-storm that the first two incidents caused. Grayson said in multiple interviews that he doesn't like the role of the bad guy. Think of all the pressure that guys like Laettner and Redick had on them while at Duke. Some embrace it. Some burst. Grayson doesn't have the personality to handle that pressure. In that moment, he realized that the national media and the Duke hate was going to come down on him like never before. That's a lot to process. To me, it looked like he was about to burst into tears. Almost like a "what have a done?" sort of moment.

Regardless of what in particular he was reacting to, the reaction was disturbing. If someone acted like that outside of sports, it would be frightening.

[scottdude8]

Villainy includes de Jong, Marty McSorley and Todd Betuzzi for sure.

Todd Bertuzzi is the dirtiest hockey player ever. Then, he played for the Red Wings for a couple years, and I convinced myself his dirty play was great to protect the team. Now that he's gone I hate him again (but love his son, who is a top Wings prospect).

Sports are weird.

[Newton_14]

What troubles me more is the fact that none of GA's TEAMMATES stepped in to help. On the court or on the sidelines. Shows me that the squad hasn't jelled into a TEAM. Players always tell each other "I got your back" especially on defense. I SEEN NONE OF THAT.
Just my .02 worth.

That's not true sorry. Maybe it wasn't shown on TV but Kennard very clearly came to Grayson's defense on the court, even to the point of walking over to the Elon huddle with some choice words and finger pointing directed at Santa Ana. On the bench both Matt Jones and Jack White went to Grayson during the meltdown. Jon Scheyer was the main person trying to get Grayson calmed down on the bench but
Matt and Jack both did as well.

[rasputin]

Todd Bertuzzi is the dirtiest hockey player ever. Then, he played for the Red Wings for a couple years, and I convinced myself his dirty play was great to protect the team. Now that he's gone I hate him again (but love his son, who is a top Wings prospect).

Sports are weird.

Bob Probert says hi.

[WWBD]

I don't think he was reacting to the call at all. I think he realized the magnitude of what just happened and how it was going to impact him. Grayson is a smart kid. He knows the bleep-storm that the first two incidents caused. Grayson said in multiple interviews that he doesn't like the role of the bad guy. Think of all the pressure that guys like Laettner and Redick had on them while at Duke. Some embrace it. Some burst. Grayson doesn't have the personality to handle that pressure. In that moment, he realized that the national media and the Duke hate was going to come down on him like never before. That's a lot to process. To me, it looked like he was about to burst into tears. Almost like a "what have a done?" sort of moment.

While you're right that his emotions were clearly all over the place and he was feeling a lot of things all at once, you're wrong that he was not reacting to the call.

He could clearly be seen saying "this is bullI'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this." repeatedly. That can only be construed one way: the call.

[ChillinDuke]

Regardless of what in particular he was reacting to, the reaction was disturbing. If someone acted like that outside of sports, it would be frightening.

But it's in sports.

Not saying it wasn't somewhat disturbing. Just pointing out that your second sentence (like other sentences and posts throughout this thread) alludes to something that didn't happen.

Grayson got mad on a basketball court. Not in a diner. To make the leap that he may actually have such an outburst next to someone on a city bus and that his anger issues are rampant in his day-to-day life is crazy to me. I'm not saying you said that or even intended to allude to that, Mtn D, but others are most certainly making similar leaps in judgment in certain posts.

Trying to keep things grounded around here.

- Chillin

[BD80]

... Duke's Chris Hipps got a two-minute, non-releasable penalty for slashing a Tarheel player in the nuts ...


Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!


It's a reasonable inference from the way Bitter reacted to the hit.

You mean like Hansbrough anytime someone comes near him in the paint?

[OZ]

I can almost guarantee you that he and Coach K know exactly when Grayson is going to be back. Saying "indefinite" is a PR move.

Knowing just enough about this situation to reveal my ignorance, I'm still going to risk offering an opinion. I have found that Coach K usually says exactly what he means. I think "indefinite" means just that. I don't think the prior concern here is going to be about basketball. I suspect, like any other "injury," this is going to be first left in the hands of professionals. I agree with others that the afterwards outburst last night appeared to be more of an implosion than an explosion. I feel like Allen will be back when the professionals, coaches, Allen (and perhaps family) ALL agree that he is ready. It might mean one game or all season. I think and hope this is going to ultimately be about Allen's well being and not basketball.

[DukeWarhead]

But it's in sports.

Not saying it wasn't somewhat disturbing. Just pointing out that your second sentence (like other sentences and posts throughout this thread) alludes to something that didn't happen.

Grayson got mad on a basketball court. Not in a diner. To make the leap that he may actually have such an outburst next to someone on a city bus and that his anger issues are rampant in his day-to-day life is crazy to me. I'm not saying you said that or even intended to allude to that, Mtn D, but others are most certainly making similar leaps in judgment in certain posts.

Trying to keep things grounded around here.

- Chillin

True dat. All the amateur psychoanalysis being offered this morning is tiresome. Lots of conclusions about what Grayson does or doesn't need without knowing him as a person. Nobody knows what Grayson needs or doesn't need other than a few select individuals - and no, I don't find his outburst on the bench alarming and don't expect that it somehow reflects on how he conducts himself day in and day out in every situation.

[OldPhiKap]

Knowing just enough about this situation to reveal my ignorance, I'm still going to risk offering an opinion. I have found that Coach K usually says exactly what he means. I think "indefinite" means just that. I don't think the prior concern here is going to be about basketball. I suspect, like any other "injury," this is going to be first left in the hands of professionals. I agree with others that the afterwards outburst last night appeared to be more of an implosion than an explosion. I feel like Allen will be back when the professionals, coaches, Allen (and perhaps family) ALL agree that he is ready. It might mean one game or all season. I think and hope this is going to ultimately be about Allen's well being and not basketball.

Agreed. I would guarantee that Allen in particular does not know when he is going to be allowed to play again. I'm sure K has given it some thought but will assess as things unfold. Allen can help himself and earn a quicker return, or can displease the coach and sit.

Look at how K dealt with 'Sheed. He's not afraid to impose discipline, even when shorthanded. What is best for the TEAM is what will happen.

[DukieInKansas]

Does anyone else picture him have to stand at attention during the first hour of upcoming practices with a drill sargeant yelling in his face as he learns to hide his thoughts and feelings while dealing with them internally?

[WWBD]

However, an "indefinite" suspension drives me INSANE.

I couldn't disagree more. It was the exact right thing to do. Not just for the trip, but because of the reaction afterward. I have never seen anything like that from a duke player and it speaks to much larger issues with Grayson. He might need to sit out for months. He needs to talk to someone and he needs to get a handle on himself. Coach K needs to wait and see how Grayson handles this and if he chooses to TRULY master this problem.

All the "this is BS" that Grayson was shouting clearly indicates to me that there is a disconnect in Grayson's mind between what he thinks happened and reality. He clearly feels persecuted (and to an extent, with the last two years of ESPN coverage, he is right). But he is the root cause of these problems. All the interviews he did at the beginning of the year saying his actions were inexcusable in the past were obviously just window dressing. He hasn't truly accepted responsibility for his actions and behavior, and I think coach k now realizes it.

An indefinite suspension says to the world, but most importantly to Grayson, that this is a serious issue and not something that will be swept under the rug this time. He can't "wait it out" (2 games, 3 games, whatever). He has to fix the problem. Or... Well. Or he might never return to uniform. That is the implied message.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

But it's in sports.

Not saying it wasn't somewhat disturbing. Just pointing out that your second sentence (like other sentences and posts throughout this thread) alludes to something that didn't happen.

Grayson got mad on a basketball court. Not in a diner. To make the leap that he may actually have such an outburst next to someone on a city bus and that his anger issues are rampant in his day-to-day life is crazy to me. I'm not saying you said that or even intended to allude to that, Mtn D, but others are most certainly making similar leaps in judgment in certain posts.

Trying to keep things grounded around here.

- Chillin

I am was actually suggesting against exactly what you are offering me as an out. I am saying that his level of aggression and frustration is less understandable because it is in sports. In "real life" his outburst would have to be precipitated by something with drastic serious consequences - a romantic breakup, family problem, death of a loved one.

To have that reaction in a sports contest is precisely what does bother me. Sports are competitive, but don't warrant that level of emotional outburst.

Show me any example of a player reacting that strongly in college athletics that wasn't lambasted by everyone as poor sportsmanship.

[subzero02]

We had a full roster for a few games. Hopefully we'll have one again soon. I am looking forward to the rest of the season and I am also looking forward to just watching and talking about basketball. Suspension and injuries have played too a big role this year.

[scottdude8]

I couldn't disagree more. It was the exact right thing to do. Not just for the trip, but because of the reaction afterward. I have never seen anything like that from a duke player and it speaks to much larger issues with Grayson. He might need to sit out for months. He needs to talk to someone and he needs to get a handle on himself. Coach K needs to wait and see how Grayson handles this and if he chooses to TRULY master this problem.

All the "this is BS" that Grayson was shouting clearly indicates to me that there is a disconnect in Grayson's mind between what he thinks happened and reality. He clearly feels persecuted (and to an extent, with the last two years of ESPN coverage, he is right). But he is the root cause of these problems. All the interviews he did at the beginning of the year saying his actions were inexcusable in the past were obviously just window dressing. He hasn't truly accepted responsibility for his actions and behavior, and I think coach k now realizes it.

An indefinite suspension says to the world, but most importantly to Grayson, that this is a serious issue and not something that will be swept under the rug this time. He can't "wait it out" (2 games, 3 games, whatever). He has to fix the problem. Or... Well. Or he might never return to uniform. That is the implied message.

I agree with everything you just said, more or less. I agree the suspension needs to be serious. However, leaving it "indefinite" as opposed to giving a set number of games flummoxes me for the reasons I stated. I just don't love the secrecy that surrounds the program... IMHO transparency is always the best decision, especially in a matter such as this. If the "indefinite" suspension truly is because K hasn't decided how long the suspension will be, and Grayson'a return will be dictated by his actions, I wish K would just say that as opposed to leaving it to us to speculate wildly about.

Again, I trust K, even more so now that he's taken the right step and suspended Grayson. I quibble with just this one aspect of how he runs this program and I feel it could have a negative effect on the team and Grayson in this instance.

[mph]

The hot take already circulating is that this is the easy part of the schedule and you can be sure he'll be back for Louisville - as if reintroducing someone for a big game after a suspension is optimal (with all caveats about Ryan Kelly and Miami)

Not in any way directed at you Billy, but can someone explain how "hot take" is anything other than a term create by ESPN because "hasty and ill informed opinion" sounds less professional?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

We had a full roster for a few games. Hopefully we'll have one again soon. I am looking forward to the rest of the season and I am also looking forward to just watching and talking about basketball. Suspension and injuries have played too a big role this year.

Yes. Our team is too talented to let the narrative of this year be "Grayson Allen's antics." Let's give the media something more positive to focus on for the next few games.

[WHOneedsSOX]

That ought to shut everyone up for a bit.

Haters will never shut up. If he gets fewer than 5 games, they'll just whine and say Coach K just suspended him for the "easier" games since Louisville is the 5th game. The only thing that makes them happy is if he's suspended the entire season which is doubtful.

[WWBD]

I firmly believe K doesn't know. I think in hindsight we can give him the benefit of the doubt on the injury situations. He really didn't know when those guys were going to make their respective returns.

[DukieInKansas]

I agree with everything you just said, more or less. I agree the suspension needs to be serious. However, leaving it "indefinite" as opposed to giving a set number of games flummoxes me for the reasons I stated. I just don't love the secrecy that surrounds the program... IMHO transparency is always the best decision, especially in a matter such as this. If the "indefinite" suspension truly is because K hasn't decided how long the suspension will be, and Grayson'a return will be dictated by his actions, I wish K would just say that as opposed to leaving it to us to speculate wildly about.

Again, I trust K, even more so now that he's taken the right step and suspended Grayson. I quibble with just this one aspect of how he runs this program and I feel it could have a negative effect on the team and Grayson in this instance.

I think the suspension is indefinite because there are certain things Coach K will be expecting to happen before Grayson the suspension is lifted. I suspect that Grayson and the team know what benchmarks need to be met before he is allowed to play again. I don't think those benchmarks need to be made public. Once Grayson meets those benchmarks, his suspension will end and we will then know how long it was.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I agree with everything you just said, more or less. I agree the suspension needs to be serious. However, leaving it "indefinite" as opposed to giving a set number of games flummoxes me for the reasons I stated. I just don't love the secrecy that surrounds the program... IMHO transparency is always the best decision, especially in a matter such as this. If the "indefinite" suspension truly is because K hasn't decided how long the suspension will be, and Grayson'a return will be dictated by his actions, I wish K would just say that as opposed to leaving it to us to speculate wildly about.

Again, I trust K, even more so now that he's taken the right step and suspended Grayson. I quibble with just this one aspect of how he runs this program and I feel it could have a negative effect on the team and Grayson in this instance.

On Dan Patrick, K kept rather coy, but did say that "indefinite" was stated as such in order to communicate that he needed to make progress before returning, and to arbitrarily assume he would be back in one, two, or three games wouldn't allow the process to run its course. Pretty sensible really.

[scottdude8]

Bob Probert says hi.

Same thing happened with Chris Chelios, haha. Hockey villains are the most evil, despicable human beings in the world... until they're on your team, in which case they're the defenders of your team's honor.

Logic and sports fandom often don't mix. So it goes.

[MChambers]

I couldn't disagree more. It was the exact right thing to do. Not just for the trip, but because of the reaction afterward. I have never seen anything like that from a duke player and it speaks to much larger issues with Grayson. He might need to sit out for months. He needs to talk to someone and he needs to get a handle on himself. Coach K needs to wait and see how Grayson handles this and if he chooses to TRULY master this problem.

All the "this is BS" that Grayson was shouting clearly indicates to me that there is a disconnect in Grayson's mind between what he thinks happened and reality. He clearly feels persecuted (and to an extent, with the last two years of ESPN coverage, he is right). But he is the root cause of these problems. All the interviews he did at the beginning of the year saying his actions were inexcusable in the past were obviously just window dressing. He hasn't truly accepted responsibility for his actions and behavior, and I think coach k now realizes it.

An indefinite suspension says to the world, but most importantly to Grayson, that this is a serious issue and not something that will be swept under the rug this time. He can't "wait it out" (2 games, 3 games, whatever). He has to fix the problem. Or... Well. Or he might never return to uniform. That is the implied message.

I mostly agree but have one alternative view of Grayson's reaction. I think he thought that Santa Ana should have been called for a foul, for trapping Grayson's arm, and when he realized the refs didn't make that call, he flipped. Doesn't excuse his reaction, of course.

I completely agree with an indefinite suspension.

[Papa John]

Perhaps not about himself, but I'm sure he does care about the Duke brand that he's taken years and painstaking efforts to build.

Coach K hasn't spent painstaking effort over 37 years building a “brand”. Rather, he's spent that time instilling a family-centric, team-oriented philosophy into his basketball program, in which entering players are asked to surrender their egos at the door for the good of the overall team’s successful development. The extraordinary success of “the Duke brand” is simply a beneficial byproduct of the tireless dedication to instilling such a strong philosophy at the core of the program. Looked at in this manner, I doubt K cares what anyone in the media says or does regarding his decision. What matters to K is whether Grayson successfully learns from his mistakes, and whether the actions he and the coaching staff decide to take help Grayson to move in that positive direction.

[scottdude8]

On Dan Patrick, K kept rather coy, but did say that "indefinite" was stated as such in order to communicate that he needed to make progress before returning, and to arbitrarily assume he would be back in one, two, or three games wouldn't allow the process to run its course. Pretty sensible really.

Fair enough, and good to hear. I just wish he had made this more clear in the statement. Transparency is always the best policy.

[CDu]

I couldn't disagree more. It was the exact right thing to do. Not just for the trip, but because of the reaction afterward. I have never seen anything like that from a duke player and it speaks to much larger issues with Grayson. He might need to sit out for months. He needs to talk to someone and he needs to get a handle on himself. Coach K needs to wait and see how Grayson handles this and if he chooses to TRULY master this problem.

All the "this is BS" that Grayson was shouting clearly indicates to me that there is a disconnect in Grayson's mind between what he thinks happened and reality. He clearly feels persecuted (and to an extent, with the last two years of ESPN coverage, he is right). But he is the root cause of these problems. All the interviews he did at the beginning of the year saying his actions were inexcusable in the past were obviously just window dressing. He hasn't truly accepted responsibility for his actions and behavior, and I think coach k now realizes it.

An indefinite suspension says to the world, but most importantly to Grayson, that this is a serious issue and not something that will be swept under the rug this time. He can't "wait it out" (2 games, 3 games, whatever). He has to fix the problem. Or... Well. Or he might never return to uniform. That is the implied message.

But herein lies the rub. Allen's issues seem to stem from letting his emotions get the better of him in the heat of the moment. He doesn't - at least not that anyone has suggested - have this problem off the court. So how then can he prove he has fixed the problem without being in competitive games?

[SlapTheFloor]

But herein lies the rub. Allen's issues seem to stem from letting his emotions get the better of him in the heat of the moment. He doesn't - at least not that anyone has suggested - have this problem off the court. So how then can he prove he has fixed the problem without being in competitive games?

Good point. I call upon all Duke students to grab Grayson by the arm or give him a good elbow to the head whenever you see him.

[Dukehky]

Fair enough, and good to hear. I just wish he had made this more clear in the statement. Transparency is always the best policy.

This attitude is part of the reason why the media was so ready to go after K and Duke for this (on top of the clicks). They were super frustrated with all the injury hush hush, they're still pissed they don't know about Sulaimon, and they're mad about Derryck Thornton. They think because Duke is the only team anyone will read about outside their own school they deserve to have coverage that they get with the pros. They do not. The injuries of 18-19 year old kids is not a privilege that anyone is privy to. The punishment of a 21 year old for touching someone with his foot in a less than friendly manner is not something that any of us is entitled to. Just because you can get any piece of information you want these days, does not mean you automatically entitled to it just because someone hid it well.

Note: This stance on transparency applies only to college athletics and does not extend to say... highly positioned public officials that may not want to be transparent.

[subzero02]

I am was actually suggesting against exactly what you are offering me as an out. I am saying that his level of aggression and frustration is less understandable because it is in sports. In "real life" his outburst would have to be precipitated by something with drastic serious consequences - a romantic breakup, family problem, death of a loved one.

To have that reaction in a sports contest is precisely what does bother me. Sports are competitive, but don't warrant that level of emotional outburst.

Show me any example of a player reacting that strongly in college athletics that wasn't lambasted by everyone as poor sportsmanship.

I am sure there are dozens of far worse reactions that have resulted in hundreds of gallons of wasted Gatorade in collegiate baseball, football and basketball. I found last year's argument with Derryck Thornton more disturbing. I have seen far worse reactions from my own teammates and other opponents(not often) in middle and high school games and practices. My 5th grade basketball coach did a Bobby knight chair throw during a game. Grayson's reaction was just caught on national tv. He was clearly frustrated... it also killed our momentum when i feel we were about to pull away before halftime. If I were Grayson I'd apologize to my teammates again for putting the game in jeopardy and losing my cool. He is an elder statesman on a team loaded with freshmen. We need Grayson's leadership and experience as well his basketball talents in order to truly reach our potential. The suspension has sent him and his teammates a strong message.

[BluDvlsN1]

What Grayson did was not only wrong, compounding an already
unfortunate sequence of events, it was immature as well.

It’s many things not the least of which is poor sportsmanship.
He’s a good kid, that keeps doing intermittently, bad things.

When it's Duke, it's magnified

As we all are, I extremely bothered of the events last night.

I wanted to sleep on it before commenting

Because of the previous incidents, he has been under a
constant microscope, every play, every game. Thats a lot
of pressure for anyone let alone a 21 yr old college student.

This compounded by his toe injury, and the appearance
of him attempting to press the action in games a bit wth
mixed results, indicates a level of frustration that has been
building on him.

Two excerpts from my MOTM vs UNLV 12-11-16 post
“Grayson was, well, Grayson.”
“The best compliment I can give Grayson, he epitomizes
a Duke basketball player.”

I stand by these comments, he is an emotional player, the obvious
example was against Wisconsin in the championship game, he took the
lead with a positive emotional display and reenergized the team.
That goes a long way.

That’s his gift but it must be channeled correctly, it’s very possible to be right
and wrong at the same time, right now he is in the short end of that discussion.
Grayson must learn to stay in the moment and stay focused on the outcome.

Coach’s responses are as what we have come to expect, he will manage the situation
to the benefit of all in general, and Grayson in particular.

I choose to believe and hope, that Grayson will learn, will take responsibility and use this
as a springboard for even greater accomplishments in his game but more
importantly in his life.

[scottdude8]

This attitude is part of the reason why the media was so ready to go after K and Duke for this (on top of the clicks). They were super frustrated with all the injury hush hush, they're still pissed they don't know about Sulaimon, and they're mad about Derryck Thornton. They think because Duke is the only team anyone will read about outside their own school they deserve to have coverage that they get with the pros. They do not. The injuries of 18-19 year old kids is not a privilege that anyone is privy to. The punishment of a 21 year old for touching someone with his foot in a less than friendly manner is not something that any of us is entitled to. Just because you can get any piece of information you want these days, does not mean you automatically entitled to it just because someone hid it well.

Note: This stance on transparency applies only to college athletics and does not extend to say... highly positioned public officials that may not want to be transparent.

Fair point. The transparency only needs to go so far given that these are very young men. I just think that accountability is always a good thing, and this situation requires clear accountability via a transparent explanation of the suspension and how it came about. The injury situation is, I agree, a different situation entirely.

I've just found that, in general, secrecy and opaqueness has a habit to breed problems. It hasn't seemed to for Duke, and I don't believe it has or will. But being more transparent can't be a bad thing, and IMHO can help to stem some of the Duke hate-machine that drives me crazy (yes, I know as a Duke fan I should be more thick skinned, etc etc).

[Billy Dat]

Not in any way directed at you Billy, but can someone explain how "hot take" is anything other than a term create by ESPN because "hasty and ill informed opinion" sounds less professional?

It's not. And, in refusing to offer a "hot take" last night during his press conference, K is getting killed. Of course, layering on his usual defensive attitude/snark didn't help, but the dude burns fiercely and I am past expecting him to be different. In that way, he probably does understand Grayson better than most.

[miramar]

Coach K hasn't spent painstaking effort over 37 years building a “brand”. Rather, he's spent that time instilling a family-centric, team-oriented philosophy into his basketball program, in which entering players are asked to surrender their egos at the door for the good of the overall team’s successful development. The extraordinary success of “the Duke brand” is simply a beneficial byproduct of the tireless dedication to instilling such a strong philosophy at the core of the program. Looked at in this manner, I doubt K cares what anyone in the media says or does regarding his decision. What matters to K is whether Grayson successfully learns from his mistakes, and whether the actions he and the coaching staff decide to take help Grayson to move in that positive direction.

Universities used to talk about their reputation or their academic standing, but nowadays we have a brand, something akin to Duke tooth paste.

As you note, the brand is just a byproduct of the standards and the work effort that goes into it, so those core values should be our main (or perhaps only) concern.

[NSDukeFan]

Oh man, I hope Coach brings Grayson back for VaTech. It is an "indefinite" suspension, afterall. It could be 30 games, it could be 0 games.
Is it too much to hope for a full, serious 9-10 day suspension so he has time to reflect on his actions before the VaTech game? Could Greenberg be brought back to coach that game?

Your take that he should be suspended the rest of the year is sort of ridiculous. How does that help him or the team? That type of suspension would be warranted if he you know, punched someone like Joe Mixon at oklahoma did.
I am still waiting for Jaylen Johnson's? suspension for an intentional elbow to the head followed by getting up looking for a fight. It is serious because of his history, but there was no threat of danger or injury.

I'm so glad the team took this step promptly before the ACC or anyone else did.
Agreed.

This was K's out to figure out how to get Giles and Bolden more minutes. I can't see it any other way! :D
K refuses to play more than a 7 man rotation, but has at least 9 players that deserve to play, so has used mysterious injuries and now a suspension to get everyone playing time. He's playing chess when everyone else is playing checkers.

Not in any way directed at you Billy, but can someone explain how "hot take" is anything other than a term create by ESPN because "hasty and ill informed opinion" sounds less professional?
That sounds about right.

I think the suspension is indefinite because there are certain things Coach K will be expecting to happen before Grayson the suspension is lifted. I suspect that Grayson and the team know what benchmarks need to be met before he is allowed to play again. I don't think those benchmarks need to be made public. Once Grayson meets those benchmarks, his suspension will end and we will then know how long it was.
I expect this is exactly right.

But herein lies the rub. Allen's issues seem to stem from letting his emotions get the better of him in the heat of the moment. He doesn't - at least not that anyone has suggested - have this problem off the court. So how then can he prove he has fixed the problem without being in competitive games?
Good point.

[Dukehky]

The WatchESPN App is covered with Grayson Allen. Stephen A Smith is asking for criticism of Coach K. I wankering hate this channel.

[The Gordog]

That's what he says. But, let me be clear, I didn't believe it when he said last night, and I don't believe it now. Opinions may differ.

Also, I don't think anything is clear cut here. K gave Grayson a fairly severe punishment, but my guess is that Grayson would have been on the dock for a severe punishment from the ACC anyway - which would have been clearly a response to public sentiment (as was last year's weird and unprecedented reprimand). So, public reaction may not have been a direct reason, but I believe it was certainly an indirect one


Sigh. if 37 years doesn't earn you the privilege of being taken at your word or not caring what anyone else thinks, then what does?

Coach K is the CEO of Duke basketball, as he has said himself. Any CEO that does not care about its brand and how that is perceived is a bad CEO. I an certain that K would agree with that. He may not care much, in this case, but he does care.

[WWBD]

But herein lies the rub. Allen's issues seem to stem from letting his emotions get the better of him in the heat of the moment. He doesn't - at least not that anyone has suggested - have this problem off the court. So how then can he prove he has fixed the problem without being in competitive games?

Well, I'll leave that to Coach K and the professionals. A big part of it could be admitting he has a problem. Not just "I made some mistakes" like he's said in the past, but "I have a problem."

[rsvman]

It seems that some of you don't really understand what the word indefinite means.
There's no reason to assume a lack of transparency because of its use in this context.

It hasn't been determined. That's all. And that is fully transparent. How could Coach K be expected to give a timeline when a timeline hasn't yet been determined?

[Saratoga2]

I think coach K cares a great deal about each player in his program and he wants to instill in them an ethical approach to basketball and life that will help them prosper. Duke has been identified with having a clean and reputable program and each player is expected to operate within guidelines that continue the good name of the University. Do players make mistakes? Of course they do and no doubt are given reprimands and are educated as to why what they did is unacceptable. In Grayson's case, he has repeatedly made the same mistake and appears to lack self control so coach K rightly determined and indefinite suspension was the appropriate path to take. Grayson probably agrees that this is an appropriate path and will make efforts to fulfill the stipulations of the suspension. It ultimately will make him a better person.

This also sends a message to all the players. Even a star and a captain must follow reasonable behavioral guidelines to represent the University as a member of the basketball program.

Whether this action puts us in jeopardy of losing some games and ranking is less important than adhering to standards of behavior that makes the Duke program one of the most respected in the country.

[cascadedevil]

Here is what I learned last night:

1. Grayson Allen is a human being
2. Grayson Allen is a young human being
3. Grayson Allen is a young human being under tremendous stress and pressure
4. Grayson Allen is a young human being under tremendous stress and pressure who makes mistakes
5. Grayson Allen is a young human being under tremendous stress and pressure who makes mistakes and has the opportunity to learn from them

As a formerly young human being who repeatedly made mistakes while under substantially less stress and pressure and who was afforded the opportunity to mature into an older human being who makes less mistakes, I am incredibly grateful I did not have to do so while under a national media microscope.

Grayson Allen has a right to make mistakes and work through the consequences of them. I choose to support him while he does so.

GO DUKE!

[Pghdukie]

Thanks Newton. I seen Schyerer with GA, but did not see Kennard nor Jack helping Allen. I'm just concerned about the mindset of the team concept. Maybe a very negative can be turned into an asset for the reminder of the season.

[subzero02]

On the Dan Patrick show, coach K said that Grayson will not play against Virginia Tech but he will sit on the bench. Patrick asked him if Grayson's suspension from competition would keep him out of practice and K didn't give a direct response. He said that if he had seen Grayson's reaction during the game that he would not have played him in the second half. He said that he was a ghost out there.

[Reilly]

... K said that Grayson will not play against Virginia Tech but he will sit on the bench ...

Maybe JJ's dad can provide security.

[Papa John]

However, an "indefinite" suspension drives me INSANE. I don't understand K's need for this level of secrecy about the program (and this is coming from a former Chronicle reporter who has some first hand experience with this). When he does it with injuries it's annoying but nothing more (nonwithstanding the fact that almost every other school gives a normal timeline, see Miles Bridges with MSU recently)... but with this it makes no sense. All it does IMHO is put the team in a state of uncertainty and add fuel to the media fire.

We need to get over ourselves and these ridiculous expectations with respect to information disclosure from coaching staffs. With injuries, it's really quite simple—the timetable is often unpalatably indeterminate because of the nature of the injury, and you have to defer to medical staff to give a guy a green light before you can put him back into play. With a disciplinary situation like Grayson’s, the timetable is necessarily dependent on whether the offending player meets whatever milestones for behavior correction are mutually agreed upon by the player and his coach(es). The players and coaches in question (i.e., the guys in the program) are the only ones who need to know what the relevant milestones are and when/whether they’ve been met. Everyone else can feel free to pound sand and deal with the “uncertainty.” This doesn't put the team in a state of uncertainty—I can bet that K and his assistants have outlined the situation very clearly for the entire team, and used this as a prime opportunity to reiterate to all what the expectations of wearing that Duke uniform are.

I tend to agree with BillyDat’s assessment—this incident has presented an opportunity to forge a stronger team on the anvil of adversity.

[lotusland]

Oh man, I hope Coach brings Grayson back for VaTech. It is an "indefinite" suspension, afterall. It could be 30 games, it could be 0 games.

I'd hold off until the second half unless VPI goes ahead early.

[Dukehky]

I'm "happy" (if anyone can be happy about this awful situation) that Grayson is suspended. He deserves to be, and Coach K doing so means everyone is taking the necessary responsibility.

However, an "indefinite" suspension drives me INSANE. I don't understand K's need for this level of secrecy about the program (and this is coming from a former Chronicle reporter who has some first hand experience with this). When he does it with injuries it's annoying but nothing more (nonwithstanding the fact that almost every other school gives a normal timeline, see Miles Bridges with MSU recently)... but with this it makes no sense. All it does IMHO is put the team in a state of uncertainty and add fuel to the media fire.

Still, the right thing was done here (more or less), and now we all just have to hope Grayson can learn from this and the team won't be disrupted by his suspension and eventual return.

I had something mean, but that was directed at the Chronicle, but i deleted because I didn't want to come at you.

[golfinesquire]

I had something mean, but that was directed at the Chronicle, but i deleted because I didn't want to come at you.
I take it that "suspended indefinitely" means that K does not know either. Something is going on with Grayson. Whether it is bad impulse control or other problems but his tantrum was frightening. I would image that the idea is that everyone take a time out and evaluate what needs to change and how to make that so. It could be that K feels comfortable after 1 game or not until after 5. So I did not take this as secrecy as much as a recognition that Grayson's behavior going forward will dictate when we will see him back.

[scottdude8]

I had something mean, but that was directed at the Chronicle, but i deleted because I didn't want to come at you.

Haha believe me, I'm fully aware of The Chronicle's MANY flaws, so no offense would've been taken. I just wanted to provide that as a bit of context from where I was coming from (being a guy who has sat in on some press conferences, been in the locker rooms after games, etc... admittedly not anywhere near to the extent of the professional reporters who are in this forum, and not for some years now, but still, a different perspective than someone who has never done so).

I'm noticing that many people seem to have taken some issue with my comment about the "indefinite" suspension and the lack of transparency, many very reasonably so. I want to take a moment to clarify my position for anyone who cares (haha), considering I may not have been as eloquent as I intended considering I was writing some of those posts from my phone.

Duke's tendency to not reveal information with regards to injuries, internal disciplinary matters, etc. is an annoyance, but nothing more than that. I don't at all feel that the program "owes" us that information or we as fans are "entitled" to it. I do think the contrast between how Duke handles such incidents and how most any other program does is worth investigating and debating, but that's a whole other can of worms. I have confidence that K is handling such incidents in a way that he feels is best for the players and the program, and that's all that matters.

However, the Grayson incident is a whole different ballgame, IMHO. My issues with the "indefinite" suspension as opposed to an 'X'-game suspension, or even just giving a more explicit explanation of the length of the suspension being dependent on Grayson's behavior (which, while it seems K has said elsewhere, was not immediately apparent to me in the official statement) are these:
-- The "mystique" of secrecy that K creates when he acts this way invites easily avoidable criticism and fuel for the Duke-hate machine, and has the potential to have a negative impact on the team with the increased media microscope they will be under.
-- Grayson's incident was not a private, team matter, but something that took place very much in the public eye, meaning it needs to be treated differently than something like a player quietly and privately being dissatisfied with his role, for example recent transfers.
-- Fairly or unfairly, the reputation of the Duke Basketball program is going to be affected by how the incident is handled, and being more clear and transparent about exactly how that is beyond a "indefinite suspension" would help to quell any rumor-mongering or speculation that would not only hurt the program, but probably Grayson as well.

The more the situation develops the more it seems like these issues are quibbles and are slowly being addressed. I just feel when it comes to an incident that takes place in the public eye and is as important as this, being as transparent as possible (without going to far, i.e. revealing private conversations, potential health issues, etc) is always the best policy. I would rather the media conversation over the next few days be a debate about how the program handled the situation and how Grayson is going to learn and grow, rather than speculation about how long the suspension will be and what K is "really" doing about Gryason (quotes because I'm imagining the talking heads of the world spouting conspiracy theories and the like).

Basically, I'm 90% happy (again, if one can be "happy" about this situation at all) with how this incident is being handled. I just think that last 10%, the transparency issue, is an important one, and one that has hounded the program for years and could be dealt with in a slightly better fashion. I'm not "demanding" anything from the program, and I think people have sort of mischaracterized my mild critique as an obsession with knowing everything about the inner-workings of Duke basketball or something like that. That isn't the case at all.

I totally understand that many of you disagree with me on this point, which is totally reasonable and understandable. I'm just one to believe that in any institution, when it comes to instances of a serious nature such as this, transparency is always the best policy. Nevertheless, Coach K knows this team and how to run the program, while I'm just a fan, so I'll defer to and trust his judgement.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

For those who are having problems with this being an indefinite suspension, first of all, please get a life.

Secondly, think of it in terms of the other injuries we have had this year. I found it annoying that there was very little disclosure about the time table for everyone's return, but ultimately, the answer was that they would return when they were healthy enough to play, and no one knew how long that would be. Like the freshmen, Grayson has a health problem - in his case it is a mental health problem. I assume/hope he will be meeting with counselors to teach him how to channel his passionate personality on the court in a productive manner. No one knows how long this will take, particularly because Grayson will be a major target as soon as he returns so he needs to be extra mentally strong. As a lifelong fan of the basketball team and an alum of the University I was embarrassed by his behavior, but most importantly, I hope he can work his way through this.

I am normally an absolute defender of K but he did not handle this well last night. He was snarky during the press conference and made it appear that the situation had been handled during the brief time period after the game. He went after a reporter who asked him about it, and not in his old "Brill is wearing an ugly sweater" way. He is a brilliant man and the GOAT, but he would have been a lot better off saying that they had begun dealing with it and had more to do rather than taking a condescending tone and acting like this was the end of the story. I am glad that he bounced back from this this morning and made a wise decision with the suspension.

[hudlow]

"...repeatedly made the same mistake..."

I was quite surprised Grayson wasn't punished after the second incident.

Coach K, if I remember correctly, has only one hard and fast rule.


"Don't do anything that is detrimental to yourself because if you do something that is detrimental to yourself, you will be doing something that is detrimental to the team."

I'd say he's looking at his last chance.

[lmb]

I'm just one to believe that in any institution, when it comes to instances of a serious nature such as this, transparency is always the best policy. Nevertheless, Coach K knows this team and how to run the program, while I'm just a fan, so I'll defer to and trust his judgement.

I would agree with you if Coach K's number one concern in this situation is one of public relations/image in regards to Duke basketball. However, I'm guessing his number one concern is helping Grayson, the person, not the player, fix this in a healthy and productive way. In that case, transparency isn't the best policy. Some amount of privacy should be afforded this young man as he works through this.

[jipops]

Here is my unsolicited take on this.

I find it absolutely maddening that the college basketball media assumes no responsibility for what has culminated to this point. And here is why:

Grayson is absolutely stupid and immature for what he has done. There is no arguing that. And there is a fuller perspective to look at here. Multiple sports media outlets proclaimed this kid to be the next hated player in college basketball before the 15-16 even started. We all read it and remember it. All because of what exactly? All throughout since he's taken his knocks and constantly needled by opposing teams. Sure, he's got to be man enough to overcome that kind of stuff. Life is not full of roses. But in the process the sports media made him out to be a villain from the very beginning where a contrived ire could be taken out on him by opposing players and fans. Now as a result of reacting to that so poorly to the culminating cheap shots he receives, he has played right into the sports media's hands. A 20 year old kid. For them the story has now sold itself. What kind of BS is that? ESPN has already given this more coverage in less than 24 hours than a scandal that exploited college kids for its own gain by denying them any semblance of an education. But THIS has to be the overwhelming top story?

Don't interpret me as defending Grayson. His actions are despicable. But he is not the only one to detest in this situation. Those are people that assume the reins of having control of the narrative. Sports media today doesn't report facts, it reports perception. And it is sickening that they are immune from any sort of responsibility with their fake moral high ground.

[lmb]

I am normally an absolute defender of K but he did not handle this well last night. He was snarky during the press conference and made it appear that the situation had been handled during the brief time period after the game. He went after a reporter who asked him about it, and not in his old "Brill is wearing an ugly sweater" way. He is a brilliant man and the GOAT, but he would have been a lot better off saying that they had begun dealing with it and had more to do rather than taking a condescending tone and acting like this was the end of the story. I am glad that he bounced back from this this morning and made a wise decision with the suspension.

On the Dan Patrick show K said he didn't witness Grayson's sideline behavior. He must have been conferring with the officials. He said if he had seen it, GA would have sat the rest of the game. It was hard to tell from the interview, but K may not have watched the tape until after last night's press conference. If so, that would explain the shift in tactics/message

[sagegrouse]

For those who are having problems with this being an indefinite suspension, first of all, please get a life.
.I have a different explanation. "Nature and Duke basketball both abhor the vacuum." Once the veil of uncertainty was eliminated from the Duke team with the return of the three injured freshmen, it had to be restored a fortiori. Therefore, there is now a great deal of uncertainty around the return of our All-American captain.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse

[DukeWarhead]

It will be interesting to see how the team reacts to this and who will step up. I'm hoping to see Amile and perhaps Matt (although he's quiet) continue to exhibit strong leadership and I'm anticipating that the offense will be able to make up the scoring. Kennard and Tatum can certainly light it up, but it would nice to see some scoring chops from everybody else, too. I have no reason to assume that the team won't respond well to this challenge, even though it's not a challenge you want to face.

[NSDukeFan]

I'd hold off until the second half unless VPI goes ahead early.

Perhaps Grayson should have to run a set of lines, or not pick the team restaurant for a couple of weeks.

[MarkD83]

It seems that some of you don't really understand what the word indefinite means.


And Grayson is not left-handed.....

[slower]

It will be interesting to see how the team reacts to this and who will step up. I'm hoping to see Amile and perhaps Matt (although he's quiet) continue to exhibit strong leadership and I'm anticipating that the offense will be able to make up the scoring. Kennard and Tatum can certainly light it up, but it would nice to see some scoring chops from everybody else, too. I have no reason to assume that the team won't respond well to this challenge, even though it's not a challenge you want to face.

Calling Frank Jackson.

[Fish80]

I do not think it means what you think it means.

[ChillinDuke]

I am was actually suggesting against exactly what you are offering me as an out. I am saying that his level of aggression and frustration is less understandable because it is in sports. In "real life" his outburst would have to be precipitated by something with drastic serious consequences - a romantic breakup, family problem, death of a loved one.

To have that reaction in a sports contest is precisely what does bother me. Sports are competitive, but don't warrant that level of emotional outburst.

Show me any example of a player reacting that strongly in college athletics that wasn't lambasted by everyone as poor sportsmanship.

Again, was not really intending to call you out, Mtn D, but seeing as we're still discussing I do disagree with your above quote. Less understandable because it's in sports? Huh? People in sports freak out all the time.

In college athletics? I don't have a good analogue in college, to be honest. But I'm sure there have been some. In any event, limiting the examples to college athletics seems to miss the crux of your argument that sports is not a valid forum in which to display frustration and aggression. Lou Pinella? Odell Beckham? Doc Rivers on like every technical foul? Various Lebron James slam dunks? Various Lebron James foul calls? That dude who took a baseball bat and slaughtered a water cooler back in the 80s? Every bench clearing brawl in baseball?

The fact that Grayson even tried to have his freak out moment on the bench as opposed to on the playing court/field is a step in the right direction.

Again, I'm not defending him. But to suggest that aggression and frustration are not routinely demonstrated in sports, at any level, seems crazy to me.

- Chillin

[Dukehky]

DeMarcus Cousins SPIT HIS MOUTHPIECE AT ANOTHER HUMAN BEING ON TUESDAY AND HAS NOT BEEN SUSPENDED OR FINED.

GTFOH. This whole Duke thing is absurd.

[DukieInKansas]

DeMarcus Cousins SPIT HIS MOUTHPIECE AT ANOTHER HUMAN BEING ON TUESDAY AND HAS NOT BEEN SUSPENDED OR FINED.

GTFOH. This whole Duke thing is absurd.

I thought the refs discussed that and determined it fell out accidentally and his ejection was reversed. Has something further come out on this?

[DavidBenAkiva]

First Doug Gotlieb is running to Allen's defense and now Gregg Doyel (http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2016/12/22/doyel-grayson-allen-you-have-change/95752918/). What in the world is going on.

But seriously, that article by Doyel is amazing. Give it a read.

[Wahoo2000]

However, an "indefinite" suspension drives me INSANE. I don't understand K's need for this level of secrecy about the program (and this is coming from a former Chronicle reporter who has some first hand experience with this). When he does it with injuries it's annoying but nothing more (nonwithstanding the fact that almost every other school gives a normal timeline, see Miles Bridges with MSU recently)... but with this it makes no sense. All it does IMHO is put the team in a state of uncertainty and add fuel to the media fire.

Something I hadn't seen you guys mention:

Maybe it is a "true" indefinite suspension because K really doesn't know how long he'll hold him out for this reason -

K knows that he cannot bring Allen back unless he's 100% convinced something like this CANNOT happen again because if it does - Allen is absolutely done for the year, and possibly done permanently at Duke.

[Dukehky]

I thought the refs discussed that and determined it fell out accidentally and his ejection was reversed. Has something further come out on this?

Watch the video. Pretty clear that he spit it at the bench. Like blatantly obvious.

[DukieInKansas]

Watch the video. Pretty clear that he spit it at the bench. Like blatantly obvious.

I only saw the video from behind and didn't think it was easy to tell. Was really wondering if the league handed down any penalties after the game since the refs took their penalty back?

[tbyers11]

First Doug Gotlieb is running to Allen's defense and now Gregg Doyel (http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2016/12/22/doyel-grayson-allen-you-have-change/95752918/). What in the world is going on.

But seriously, that article by Doyel is amazing. Give it a read.

Thanks for the link. I agree that everyone, hopefully including Grayson, should read this article. I think Doyel is spot on in how he viewed Grayson's outburst after the incident.

[dukelifer]

First Doug Gotlieb is running to Allen's defense and now Gregg Doyel (http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2016/12/22/doyel-grayson-allen-you-have-change/95752918/). What in the world is going on.

But seriously, that article by Doyel is amazing. Give it a read.

I feel bad for Allen because you cannot fully control your emotions in the moment. It is what makes him the player it is. But he has a big spotlight on him. I feel bad for him because he can only do so much. If you take away his emotion though some combination of mood altering drugs- you take away Allen. It is doubtful he can do anything now to curtail it. It may just take time for the emotional maturity to kick in. Learning to play without it will be hard- he may never be the same player. And there is no way to make sure this does not happen again. It is like a wobbly ACL- it could snap at any time.

[BullBlue]

What Grayson did was not only wrong, compounding an already
unfortunate sequence of events, it was immature as well.

It’s many things not the least of which is poor sportsmanship.
He’s a good kid, that keeps doing intermittently, bad things.

When it's Duke, it's magnified

As we all are, I extremely bothered of the events last night.

I wanted to sleep on it before commenting

Because of the previous incidents, he has been under a
constant microscope, every play, every game. Thats a lot
of pressure for anyone let alone a 21 yr old college student.

This compounded by his toe injury, and the appearance
of him attempting to press the action in games a bit wth
mixed results, indicates a level of frustration that has been
building on him.

Two excerpts from my MOTM vs UNLV 12-11-16 post
“Grayson was, well, Grayson.”
“The best compliment I can give Grayson, he epitomizes
a Duke basketball player.”

I stand by these comments, he is an emotional player, the obvious
example was against Wisconsin in the championship game, he took the
lead with a positive emotional display and reenergized the team.
That goes a long way.

That’s his gift but it must be channeled correctly, it’s very possible to be right
and wrong at the same time, right now he is in the short end of that discussion.
Grayson must learn to stay in the moment and stay focused on the outcome.

Coach’s responses are as what we have come to expect, he will manage the situation
to the benefit of all in general, and Grayson in particular.

I choose to believe and hope, that Grayson will learn, will take responsibility and use this
as a springboard for even greater accomplishments in his game but more
importantly in his life.

^ Good post, just what I have been thinking.

Grayson had the right response in the UNLV game. Take a look at this video at the 2:55 mark (18:15 point of game)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyXuZTa6_fw&feature=youtu.be&t=173

Grayson is bringing the ball up the floor and it gets knocked loose and Grayson goes down chasing the ball. While he is on the floor, Clyburn, #1, for UNLV kind of grabs Grayson around the neck, during the scramble and spins him to the side. Clyburn got charged with a technical for the play. Look at the motion Grayson is making with his hands at the 3:54 mark (replay of the foul). He did the same motion after the foul/tripping call against him in the Elon game.

My point is, Grayson was clearly upset at what had just happened in both games. However, in the UNLV game he seemed to channel the frustration into probably the best game he has had as a Duke player. Remember the dunks he had in that game? Career High, too.

There have been several comments in this thread about Grayson needing to get his emotions under control and I agree with those. I also agree that he has a target on his back and teams will be trying to get to him in future games. I love the intensity Grayson plays with like he did in the UNLV game. Maybe he can figure out the difference between the UNLV Grayson and the Elon Grayson and just play like the former.

[SCMatt33]

Thanks for the link. I agree that everyone, hopefully including Grayson, should read this article. I think Doyel is spot on in how he viewed Grayson's outburst after the incident.

This is pretty much an article about addiction. If you were to take that article and replace "tripping" for Grayson and "hot takes" for Doyel, with any traditional addiction, drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc. that article would still make total sense. And maybe that's the best way to describe this, because it's clearly something that is completely his own fault, but most reasonable people have the understanding that he's not out there saying "ok, I'm gonna trip this guy now"

[jv001]

First Doug Gotlieb is running to Allen's defense and now Gregg Doyel (http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2016/12/22/doyel-grayson-allen-you-have-change/95752918/). What in the world is going on.

But seriously, that article by Doyel is amazing. Give it a read.

Thanks for the link. Good personal account of a person out of control and how he was able to overcome it. He sounds sincere in hoping Grayson can overcome his anger. Even hopes Grayson reads the story.

On all three tripping incidents, Grayson was angry about fouls not being called or the physical play against him. When he comes back, no doubt another player is going to try to intimidate him with rough play. Grayson is wound tight and that's both good and bad. I love his hustle and passion for Duke University, but last night he went way too far. The trip was bad enough but then his outburst on the bench was way over the top. I think when Coach K saw that this morning or late last night, that was the straw that broke the camels back. He had to do something not only for the team but for Grayson the person. Now it's up to Grayson to get it so to speak. I think he can with help from his family, the team, coaches and Duke fans. No doubt he'll hear more boos than he's ever heard in his life, he'll just have to figure out how to make those boos make him a stronger player and person. I'm rooting for him to succeed. GoDuke!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Again, was not really intending to call you out, Mtn D, but seeing as we're still discussing I do disagree with your above quote. Less understandable because it's in sports? Huh? People in sports freak out all the time.

In college athletics? I don't have a good analogue in college, to be honest. But I'm sure there have been some. In any event, limiting the examples to college athletics seems to miss the crux of your argument that sports is not a valid forum in which to display frustration and aggression. Lou Pinella? Odell Beckham? Doc Rivers on like every technical foul? Various Lebron James slam dunks? Various Lebron James foul calls? That dude who took a baseball bat and slaughtered a water cooler back in the 80s? Every bench clearing brawl in baseball?

The fact that Grayson even tried to have his freak out moment on the bench as opposed to on the playing court/field is a step in the right direction.

Again, I'm not defending him. But to suggest that aggression and frustration are not routinely demonstrated in sports, at any level, seems crazy to me.

- Chillin

I understand you weren't calling me out in particular, and I appreciate the spirited conversation. I do vehemently disagree with your statement though.

I feel sports - especially at the collegiate level - ought to be a showcase for sportsmanship, not an avenue to vent your spleen when things don't go your way. Perhaps I'm old school in this thought process, but my dad was my basketball coach growing up, and if I did a fraction of the things that Grayson has done on the court, I would have been benched in heartbeat. And, if I reacted to a whistle the way Grayson did last night... well, it would not have been pretty.

I did specify "college sports," because when a game is your profession, I'm willing to offer a bit more leeway when technical fouls, etc. mess with your paychecks. At the same time, professional athletes are, well, "professional," which suggests a level of maturity as well.

I would also argue that Odell Beckham was subjected to the same scrutiny and ridicule that Allen has been, and that we should hold our standards higher than that. K's reaction suggests the same.

Back to our original disagreement - I hope to watch spirited, aggressive competition on the basketball floor, but good sportsmanship is non-negotiable for me. College sports ought to reinforce our values, not be an opportunity to capitalize on every conceivable competitive advantage no matter the cost. I hope that K's coaching and teaching gets Grayson back on track sooner rather than later. There is still an element of mentorship between coaches and players on the college level, and I am very interested to see how Grayson takes advantage of this opportunity for growth.

[richardjackson199]

I feel bad for Allen because you cannot fully control your emotions in the moment. It is what makes him the player it is. But he has a big spotlight on him. I feel bad for him because he can only do so much. If you take away his emotion though some combination of mood altering drugs- you take away Allen. It is doubtful he can do anything now to curtail it. It may just take time for the emotional maturity to kick in. Learning to play without it will be hard- he may never be the same player. And there is no way to make sure this does not happen again. It is like a wobbly ACL- it could snap at any time.

I respectfully disagree.

I am an expert on mood altering drugs. Grayson Allen is not my patient - I've never evaluated him and so I can't suggest a treatment plan. I know some resent armchair psychology. So I'm just trying to offer some information to the board on something I do know quite a bit about.

I would recommend reading Greg Doyel's linked article. Generically, I'm telling you that impulse control disorders and disruptive behavior disorders can be treated quite successfully in many motivated patients without using ANY mood stabilizing medications (or ANY medications). That can often be the best treatment plan. Good anger management psychotherapy techniques don't have any side effects, and the lessons learned and mastery techniques can (and often do) last a lifetime.

I hope Grayson does not subscribe to the belief that "he can only do so much." Many people who are motivated to overcome impulse control or disruptive behavior problems can master them. They can do that without taking away their passion at all. They can still fully be themselves - passion and all. Waiting for emotional maturity to kick in is not what we normally recommend. There is plenty that can be done to not just curtail it, but master it. There are certainly ways to make sure this does not happen again - I disagree with the ACL analogy. When one learns to anticipate antecedents and recognize the first signs of anger, new habits can be mastered to ensure one's will never snaps and just gets stronger.

Of course there are psychiatric diagnoses in which mood stabilizing medications are indicated and appropriate. But there are also plenty of conditions and situations where medications are not the best answer.

[FerryFor50]

Watch the video. Pretty clear that he spit it at the bench. Like blatantly obvious.

Not to mention that Cousins *also* has a prior history of doing stuff that has been outside the realm of sportsmanship. But, sure, let's reverse the ejection decision and let him back in.

[uh_no]

I was quite surprised Grayson wasn't punished after the second incident.


perhaps he was and you just never heard about it.

[uh_no]

Perhaps Grayson should have to run a set of lines, or not pick the team restaurant for a couple of weeks.

lets just say the team won't be short on chunky monkey for the next month!

[FerryFor50]

perhaps he was and you just never heard about it.

Honestly, the 2nd incident was semi-suspect anyway. He at least had some plausible deniability.

[DoubleBlue]

Don't interpret me as defending Grayson. His actions are despicable. But he is not the only one to detest in this situation. Those are people that assume the reins of having control of the narrative. Sports media today doesn't report facts, it reports perception. And it is sickening that they are immune from any sort of responsibility with their fake moral high ground.

I think this is symptomatic of today's media in general, especially in politics, where its not news or facts anymore, but perceptions and narratives. There are many parallels between the sports world and the world of politics where the media tries to push their ideology down our throats by creating stories to prove their pre-conceived notions of who or what is good or bad. Its a sad state of affairs... and we the audience must decide what to listen to and what to ignore.

[Lennies]

Kick *the ball*! I said, "Kick *the ball*! -Coach K

[moonpie23]

last night, after grayson checked back in, there was another moment that could have gone wrong as well. He and and elon player were moving towards the basket when their feet/ankles got just a bit tangled up. I've got to go back to the replay to find it, but as i watched, i thought, Holy Crap!! that could have been ANOTHER "trip by grayson".

The elon player did not fall, so, nothing of note...but it COULD have been...I'm thinking about how may players' feet bump during the course of a game and it's the potential for a fall. Only, looking back on that play, with grayson's history, it would BLOWUP again...

Grayson will never get the benefit of the doubt again...any collision that includes feet/ankles bumping will be on grayson...

seriously, folks, do y'all think he's deliberately trying trip a guy (thinking "i'm gonna trip this guy and no one will know") or is it an abject side product of his style of play (undisciplined helter-skelter)? i'm not trying to make excuses for him, nor defend him. It just seem bizarre...

I feel bad for him..

[ChillinDuke]

I understand you weren't calling me out in particular, and I appreciate the spirited conversation. I do vehemently disagree with your statement though.

I feel sports - especially at the collegiate level - ought to be a showcase for sportsmanship, not an avenue to vent your spleen when things don't go your way. Perhaps I'm old school in this thought process, but my dad was my basketball coach growing up, and if I did a fraction of the things that Grayson has done on the court, I would have been benched in heartbeat. And, if I reacted to a whistle the way Grayson did last night... well, it would not have been pretty.

I did specify "college sports," because when a game is your profession, I'm willing to offer a bit more leeway when technical fouls, etc. mess with your paychecks. At the same time, professional athletes are, well, "professional," which suggests a level of maturity as well.

I would also argue that Odell Beckham was subjected to the same scrutiny and ridicule that Allen has been, and that we should hold our standards higher than that. K's reaction suggests the same.

Back to our original disagreement - I hope to watch spirited, aggressive competition on the basketball floor, but good sportsmanship is non-negotiable for me. College sports ought to reinforce our values, not be an opportunity to capitalize on every conceivable competitive advantage no matter the cost. I hope that K's coaching and teaching gets Grayson back on track sooner rather than later. There is still an element of mentorship between coaches and players on the college level, and I am very interested to see how Grayson takes advantage of this opportunity for growth.

Very fair and well stated.

I have a different view, but I wouldn't say wildly so. And I can completely understand where you and probably many others are coming from.

To further the conversation, I'd even point out (as you did) that there is probably a spectrum here where 3rd grade (e.g.) sports should be all about sportsmanship and fairness and professional sports should be all about competition/winning. Not saying there shouldn't be a value on winning in 3rd grade or a value on sportsmanship in professionals, but you get my drift. And in that spectrum, as you inch up to the high level HS and further high level college, you are getting far onto the competition side of the spectrum. These guys have a lot on the line, a lot of eyes on them, and a lot of pressure on top of them. With that in mind, I can negotiate some frustration. As you said, it's non-negotiable for you. And I think both views are completely fair.

- Chillin

ETA - To be clear, I can "negotiate" some earnest displays of frustration. Not tripping a player.
ETAA - This is probably what gets a guy like Michael Floyd cut by the Cardinals and near instantly re-signed by the Patriots. (I'm guessing)

[FerryFor50]

last night, after grayson checked back in, there was another moment that could have gone wrong as well. He and and elon player were moving towards the basket when their feet/ankles got just a bit tangled up. I've got to go back to the replay to find it, but as i watched, i thought, Holy Crap!! that could have been ANOTHER "trip by grayson".

The elon player did not fall, so, nothing of note...but it COULD have been...I'm thinking about how may players' feet bump during the course of a game and it's the potential for a fall. Only, looking back on that play, with grayson's history, it would BLOWUP again...

Grayson will never get the benefit of the doubt again...any collision that includes feet/ankles bumping will be on grayson...

seriously, folks, do y'all think he's deliberately trying trip a guy (thinking "i'm gonna trip this guy and no one will know") or is it an abject side product of his style of play (undisciplined helter-skelter)? i'm not trying to make excuses for him, nor defend him. It just seem bizarre...

I feel bad for him..

Looks pretty much like an intentional trip to me. Kind of like when an offensive lineman gets beat and is trying to prevent a sack, or a defensive player is trying to make a tackle but is out of position.

No one whines about it in football, though. It's a penalty and you move on. I think the issue is that it's so out of place in basketball.

[Owen Meany]

Here is my unsolicited take on this.

I find it absolutely maddening that the college basketball media assumes no responsibility for what has culminated to this point. And here is why:

Grayson is absolutely stupid and immature for what he has done. There is no arguing that. And there is a fuller perspective to look at here. Multiple sports media outlets proclaimed this kid to be the next hated player in college basketball before the 15-16 even started. We all read it and remember it. All because of what exactly? All throughout since he's taken his knocks and constantly needled by opposing teams. Sure, he's got to be man enough to overcome that kind of stuff. Life is not full of roses. But in the process the sports media made him out to be a villain from the very beginning where a contrived ire could be taken out on him by opposing players and fans. Now as a result of reacting to that so poorly to the culminating cheap shots he receives, he has played right into the sports media's hands. A 20 year old kid. For them the story has now sold itself. What kind of BS is that? ESPN has already given this more coverage in less than 24 hours than a scandal that exploited college kids for its own gain by denying them any semblance of an education. But THIS has to be the overwhelming top story?

Don't interpret me as defending Grayson. His actions are despicable. But he is not the only one to detest in this situation. Those are people that assume the reins of having control of the narrative. Sports media today doesn't report facts, it reports perception. And it is sickening that they are immune from any sort of responsibility with their fake moral high ground.

Grayson Allen screwed up again. I hate it for him, his family and Duke basketball. The chippy play needs to stop. He needs to mature. He has hurt himself and his team.

It is absolutely appropriate for Coach K to suspend Allen for not living up to the standards he expects. But his on court actions absolutely do not rise to the level of outrage expressed by the media. The actions were chippy, unsportsman-like and unbecoming. No one can honestly suggest that they were in any way dangerous. And it would be unprecedented, as far as I can remember, for a league to suspend someone for being childish. It is completely disingenuous to suggest that Allen's actions are so egregious and beyond what goes on in games across the country that Allen should be singled out for this level of scrutiny and punishment.

The media is absolutely culpable in creating this situation. They have been writing about Duke's villain for over a year now. They have mentioned his tripping incidents ad nauseum, even in games that Duke is not involved in. They have ignored his excellent academics, his heavy course load, etc. They have been irresponsible and reprehensible. The top 5 "blocks" on the ESPN NCAA page right now are

"How Long Should Grayson Allen Sit"
"Where is the criticism for Coach K"
"Grayson Allen's History of Tripping"
"Duke's Season Depends on Whether Grayson Allen Can Grow Up"
"Greenburg Believes Duke Needs to Get Allen Help"

Last night, while still at the game, I checked ESPN at Allen was 3 of the top 5 stories on the front page. His trip and Coach K's reaction were placed above Bob Stoops first comments regarding the video of his star running back punching a young woman in the face resulting in mulitiple facial fractures. (FWIW, he admits he saw the video before and that, perhaps, Mixon should have been dismissed if it happened today).

Dana O'Neil, a Penn State grad who idolized Joe Pa growing up, had 2 articles up - meaning she has now written more about Grayson Allen's tripping incidents than she has about the child rape scandal at her own alma mater.

For Greenburg to comment on any player's behavior, or any coach's response is absolutely ridiculous. Greenburg's teams were notoriously dirty. He coached Jeff Allen, who was suspended for 2 games for elbowing a referee, suspended for making an obscene gesture to the crowd, and ejected for elbowing a UVA player in the face. After the 3rd incident Greenburg was asked if he would hold Allen out of the next game responded "Why would I. He served his punishment yesterday." Curiously, no mention of getting Allen the help he obviously needed.

Many Duke fans may remember Deron Washington as the VT player that kicked Melchioni in the face while he lay in the floor. In a later trip to Cameron, Washington (quoting a writer who disliked Duke and Paulus) "the Virginia Tech Forward proceeded to flop, trip players, try to get into the Duke huddle, start a fight with Paulus, AND undercut Demarcus Nelson on a dunk attempt. It’s one thing to flop and look like a complete idiot (*ahem* Paulus) but actually trying to injure people during a game is unforgivable. That undercut of Nelson was premeditated and dirty as hell. Washington should be suspended for at least a game if not more."

The trip was against Singler as he ran full speed down the court and resulted in a flagrant foul for Washington. From the Richmond Times Dispatch "Instead of just bouncing back and defending them hard, we were trying to pick fights," freshman point guard Hank Thorns said. "I think that's good for us as well. It shows aggressiveness and [that] we're not going to back down from nobody." What was Greenburg's response? "Both teams were a little frisky," Greenberg said. "I'm sure [Greg] Paulus is probably tired of seeing the bottom of Deron's shorts." This was a taunt referring to a dunk Washington had over Paulus in an earlier game.

In the side bar Myron Metcalf says that Allen should be suspended a minimum of 3 games. He reasons that is you went to the mall and tripped a random patron "the next step is jail and a civil suit". Luke Eddy would also be in jail if he ran up behind a random person at the mall and forcefully grabbed them from behind. You can't push strangers, dive on them to take their packages, or tackle them, etc. But it happens in sports. The comparison is asinine, which is why it is not normally applied to individuals on the field or court. It is a standard reserved for Grayson Allen.

Allen is obviously having a problem dealing with pressure. Its a pretty safe bet that the greatest pressure he faces is the intense media scrutiny and resulting public backlash that he has faced. Its unnatural for anyone, let alone a quiet young man who clearly does not like the attention. The media has been relentless in their scrutiny of Allen. His 3 incidents combined were not nearly as bad as the elbow the Louisville player threw to his face last year, but there was not a peep about that incident. To say there is a double standard does not do this justice. They want hits, but they are willingly destroying this kid in the process.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Very fair and well stated.

I have a different view, but I wouldn't say wildly so. And I can completely understand where you and probably many others are coming from.

To further the conversation, I'd even point out (as you did) that there is probably a spectrum here where 3rd grade (e.g.) sports should be all about sportsmanship and fairness and professional sports should be all about competition/winning. Not saying there shouldn't be a value on winning in 3rd grade or a value on sportsmanship in professionals, but you get my drift. And in that spectrum, as you inch up to the high level HS and further high level college, you are getting far onto the competition side of the spectrum. These guys have a lot on the line, a lot of eyes on them, and a lot of pressure on top of them. With that in mind, I can negotiate some frustration. As you said, it's non-negotiable for you. And I think both views are completely fair.

- Chillin

ETA - To be clear, I can "negotiate" some earnest displays of frustration. Not tripping a player.
ETAA - This is probably what gets a guy like Michael Floyd cut by the Cardinals and near instantly re-signed by the Patriots. (I'm guessing)

Also well stated, and I'm sure that truth for the majority lies somewhere between your stance and mine. And yes, I acknowledge that parsing between guys in the NBA who are fighting for a paycheck and guys in college who are trying to make their mark so that they can make their paycheck next year.

Also, you are right that realistically the scale slides from "sportsmanship" to "win at all costs" we teams get older, but I'd say K's actions in the last 20 hours show that he's still determined to coach/teach/mentor and help Grayson's growth, which i find very refreshing.

But hey, this is the internet - what are we doing having a measured and reasonable discussion? Shouldn't we be hurling insults at one another?

[Devilwin]

Feel bad for all involved. Grayson, the team, and staff. I wonder what it's going to do to the team, which in spite of massive talent, has struggled as of late. But he deserves the suspension. No sense at all in what he did. He needs to get hold of himself, especially since you know he'll be the object of derision in every game he plays. A hard cross to bear for sure.:(

[FerryFor50]

Grayson Allen screwed up again. I hate it for him, his family and Duke basketball. The chippy play needs to stop. He needs to mature. He has hurt himself and his team.

It is absolutely appropriate for Coach K suspend Allen for not living up to the standards he expects. But his on court actions absolutely do not rise to the level of outrage expressed by the media. The actions were chippy, unsportsman-like and unbecoming. No one can honestly suggest that they were in any way dangerous. And it would be unprecedented, as far as I can remember, for a league to suspend someone for being childish. It is completely disingenuous to suggest that Allen's actions are so egregious and beyond what goes on in games across the country that Allen should be singled out for this level of scrutiny and punishment.

The media is absolutely culpable in creating this situation. They have been writing about Duke's villain for over a year now. They have mentioned his tripping incidents ad nauseum, even in games that Duke is not involved in. They have ignored his excellent academics, his heavy course load, etc. They have been irresponsible and reprehensible. The top 5 "blocks" on the ESPN NCAA page right now are

"How Long Should Grayson Allen Sit"
"Where is the criticism for Coach K"
"Grayson Allen's History of Tripping"
"Duke's Season Depends on Whether Grayson Allen Can Grow Up"
"Greenburg Believes Duke Needs to Get Allen Help"

Last night, while still at the game, I checked ESPN at Allen was 3 of the top 5 stories on the front page. His trip and Coach K's reaction were placed above Bob Stoops first comments regarding the video of his star running back punching a young woman in the face resulting in mulitiple facial fractures. (FWIW, he admits he saw the video before and that, perhaps, Mixon should have been dismissed if it happened today).

Dana O'Neil, a Penn State grad who idolized Joe Pa growing up, had 2 articles up - meaning she has now written more about Grayson Allen's tripping incidents than she has about the child rape scandal at her own alma mater.

For Greenburg to comment on any player's behavior, or any coach's response is absolutely ridiculous. Greenburg's teams were notoriously dirty. He coached Jeff Allen, who was suspended for 2 games for elbowing a referee, suspended for making an obscene gesture to the crowd, and ejected for elbowing a UVA player in the face. After the 3rd incident Greenburg was asked if he would hold Allen out of the next game responded "Why would I. He served his punishment yesterday." Curiously, no mention of getting Allen the help he obviously needed.

Many Duke fans may remember Deron Washington as the VT player that kicked Melchioni in the face while he lay in the floor. In a later trip to Cameron, Washington (quoting a writer who disliked Duke and Paulus) "the Virginia Tech Forward proceeded to flop, trip players, try to get into the Duke huddle, start a fight with Paulus, AND undercut Demarcus Nelson on a dunk attempt. It’s one thing to flop and look like a complete idiot (*ahem* Paulus) but actually trying to injure people during a game is unforgivable. That undercut of Nelson was premeditated and dirty as hell. Washington should be suspended for at least a game if not more."

The trip was against Singler as he ran full speed down the court and resulted in a flagrant foul for Washington. From the Richmond Times Dispatch "Instead of just bouncing back and defending them hard, we were trying to pick fights," freshman point guard Hank Thorns said. "I think that's good for us as well. It shows aggressiveness and [that] we're not going to back down from nobody." What was Greenburg's response? "Both teams were a little frisky," Greenberg said. "I'm sure [Greg] Paulus is probably tired of seeing the bottom of Deron's shorts." This was a taunt referring to a dunk Washington had over Paulus in an earlier game.

In the side bar Myron Metcalf says that Allen should be suspended a minimum of 3 games. He reasons that is you went to the mall and tripped a random patron "the next step is jail and a civil suit". Luke Eddy would also be in jail if he ran up behind a random person at the mall and forcefully grabbed them from behind. You can't push strangers, dive on them to take their packages, or tackle them, etc. But it happens in sports. The comparison is asinine, which is why it is not normally applied to individuals on the field or court. It is a standard reserved for Grayson Allen.

Allen is obviously having a problem dealing with pressure. Its a pretty safe bet that the greatest pressure he faces is the intense media scrutiny and resulting public backlash that he has faced. Its unnatural for anyone, let alone a quiet young man who clearly does not like the attention. The media has been relentless in their scrutiny of Allen. His 3 incidents combined were not nearly as bad as the elbow the Louisville player threw to his face last year, bu there was not a peep about that incident. To say there is a double standard does not do this justice. They want hits, but they are willingly destroying this kid in the process.

Fantastic thread. Had been trying to recall some other nefarious incidents.

The Dana O'Neill point is spot on, too. Writing about a player at a widely hated program doing something wrong is infinitely easier than attacking a legend like JoePa at Penn St.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Feel bad for all involved. Grayson, the team, and staff. I wonder what it's going to do to the team, which in spite of massive talent, has struggled as of late. But he deserves the suspension. No sense at all in what he did. He needs to get hold of himself, especially since you know he'll be the object of derision in every game he plays. A hard cross to bear for sure.:(

One can only hope that this galvanizes the team and pulls Grayson's head into the team game. If anyone can manage this group, it's K.

[CameronBornAndBred]

First Doug Gotlieb is running to Allen's defense and now Gregg Doyel (http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2016/12/22/doyel-grayson-allen-you-have-change/95752918/). What in the world is going on.

But seriously, that article by Doyel is amazing. Give it a read.

That article is well worth the read and props to Doyel for putting himself out there. One small quibble, I don't get his call out of Scheyer.


Duke assistant Jon Scheyer, who took his turn from 2006-10 as America’s most hated (Duke) player, tried to calm him but Allen was inconsolable

I'm guessing he was thinking of Kyle Singler, who did a decent job of wearing the "most hated" badge. But Scheyer? Hell, he probably had Carolina lady fans thinking "I wanna hate him, but he's so nice and awesome and cute and stuff".

[FerryFor50]

That article is well worth the read and props to Doyel for putting himself out there. One small quibble, I don't get his call out of Scheyer.



I'm guessing he was thinking of Kyle Singler, who did a decent job of wearing the "most hated" badge. But Scheyer? Hell, he probably had Carolina lady fans thinking "I wanna hate him, but he's so nice and awesome and cute and stuff".

Worst thing people said about Scheyer was "he makes funny faces."

[jv001]

Worst thing people said about Scheyer was "he makes funny faces."

Watch out, Jumbo is out there somewhere :cool: GoDuke!

[DukeFanNotNBAFan]

That article is well worth the read and props to Doyel for putting himself out there. One small quibble, I don't get his call out of Scheyer.



I'm guessing he was thinking of Kyle Singler, who did a decent job of wearing the "most hated" badge. But Scheyer? Hell, he probably had Carolina lady fans thinking "I wanna hate him, but he's so nice and awesome and cute and stuff".

I read it. It's garbage.
The "downfall"? Are you kidding me? The kid has tripped a few guys on the court. The righteous indignation is nauseating. Let's just all realize that Grayson will likely be suspended for a greater length of time than some players who have been arrested for committing actual crimes. He's 20 years old, he's on pace to graduate in 3 years, and he's got a likely future as an NBA player. Cut the kid some slack. Sometimes his competitiveness leads to some unfortunate moments. He should be penalized because it's selfish and it negatively impacts his team, but can we all get over ourselves? He's not John Dillinger, he did not commit the crime of the century, and no, he's not lessening the value of a Duke degree. He tripped a kid.

[Pghdukie]

Let's bring back the Hanson Brothers for some "old time basketball"

[DukeDevil]

Just showed up on my Facebook feed - J Will penned a response to Grayson

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18331439

[miramar]

Looks pretty much like an intentional trip to me. Kind of like when an offensive lineman gets beat and is trying to prevent a sack, or a defensive player is trying to make a tackle but is out of position.

No one whines about it in football, though. It's a penalty and you move on. I think the issue is that it's so out of place in basketball.

Wojo was a great tripper, and Scheyer wasn't half bad, but the idea was to get a traveling call on the opposing player and not a technical foul call.

[uh_no]

Just showed up on my Facebook feed - J Will penned a response to Grayson

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18331439

I had guessed that his calling for severe punishment may have been in part driven by how he ended his own career, and it seems I wasn't super far off. People were calling for Jay's head last night, and yes, media members are naturally going to go over the top, but I don't for a second believe Jay, as a member of the duke family, for a second wants anything less than what's best for Grayson to do better.

[miramar]

Just showed up on my Facebook feed - J Will penned a response to Grayson

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18331439

Considering that Williams and Greenberg were both beating up on Allen last night, the touchy-feely letter rings rather hollow, at least in my book.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Considering that Williams and Greenberg were both beating up on Allen last night, the touchy-feely letter rings rather hollow, at least in my book.

So... you are saying they should have had a more measured and less emotional response?

:)

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Just showed up on my Facebook feed - J Will penned a response to Grayson

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18331439

Nice sentiment from Jay. Poignant piece. Hope people who were so quick to say Jay was toeing the company line last night will take a moment to read this piece.

[DukeMT]

I have been a constant observer of this forum for quite a few years now, and have never taken part in any discussion. I have always admired the intelligence, wit, humor, and more specifically the unmatched loyalty to the program. I have grown to be a Duke fan our of pure admiration, respect, and love for Coach K and the people/players that he has surrounded himself with. My first Duke game was a few weeks ago in Vegas, and it amazed me how I felt at home with all of the Duke fans. I got a chance to meet each individual player after the game, and shake hands with coach K. I'm sure many of you feel the same way, but after being so devoted to the basketball team, its seems as though you personally know and deeply care about these kids and coaching staff without ever meeting them. That being said, my heart goes out to Grayson. We have all experienced the consequences of poor decisions. How many times have you prayed that it was a dream, and that you would wake up and everything would be ok? I played a professional sport, and have coached at high levels. One thing can be said, and that is if you gave me 5 Grayson Allen's on a basketball court, Ill win. If you gave me 9 GA's on a baseball field, Ill kick your I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.. If you give me 11 GA's on a football field, I'll win again. Coaches wait years for a player of his ability, combined with his passion and heart. Yes, coach K has built a program, at an amazing academic institution that has separated itself in terms of class, ethics, and accountability. However, deep down inside coaches love the type of kid that would rather fist fight before the game, and then beat you down again during the game. The best coaches (coach K) have the ability to pull the reins back and keep that kid on the edge. IMO, Grayson is always on that edge, and I love him for it. I have a feeling that coach's talk with him went something like, "don't change a thing about who you are, and how you play. We just have to find a way to keep you from crossing that line." I highly doubt coach K would want to change anything about his game, or his character. His suspension isn't about punishment, its about teaching, caring, and ultimately his future endeavors. I could care less about what the rest of the college basketball world thinks about Grayson. He is that players that other players and fans love to hate, but would LOVE to have him playing for them. Coach K instills a killer instinct in all of his players. Some are receptive to it, others not so much. Grayson walked onto the floor his freshman year already having the killer instinct. His actions on the floor last night and last year are out of his relentless desire to win, he hates losing. He is a winner. Yeah he crossed the line, but he never committed an action with the sole intent to injure another player. Duke players are taught to be, asked to be, and fans want to see a relentless desire to win. His actions on the bench crossed the line, but he wears his emotions on his sleeve and let them out in an environment that was viewed be everyone. I don't know about you guys, but I am going to embrace his passion. He pours his heart into the one thing that we all love, and that is Duke basketball. Poor decision or not, I've got your back Grayson. Thank you for you effort. Thank you for wearing the jersey. Cant wait for you to be back.

[jv001]

Nice sentiment from Jay. Poignant piece. Hope people who were so quick to say Jay was toeing the company line last night will take a moment to read this piece.

I was more upset with Greenberg than Jay over the Grayson comments. The only thing I have against Jay is his reluctance to discuss the cheats academic fraud. However if I was in his shoes, I might be afraid that my cheat boss or bosses might fire me. :cool: GoDuke!

[TexHawk]

Dana O'Neil, a Penn State grad who idolized Joe Pa growing up, had 2 articles up - meaning she has now written more about Grayson Allen's tripping incidents than she has about the child rape scandal at her own alma mater.
This is a bad thing? Personally, I prefer mass media organizations to follow some rules of propriety on these things. You don't ask or allow alumni journalists to report on negative stories about their alma maters. It's why you all are laughing at the local UNC media stooges in that other thread.

According to Google, it looks like ESPN asked O'Neil to write one article describing the reaction to the scandal in the Penn State community after it broke. That's something that she should have a unique perspective on, and should be fair game. I just don't agree with the algebra of counting and comparing the two situations.

[tbyers11]

Just showed up on my Facebook feed - J Will penned a response to Grayson

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18331439

While this article has some good points about not hiding from your actions and I agree with Uh no that Jay definitely wants what's best for Grayson, I think it is Jay's half-hearted response to make some peace with the Duke family. He can take his hot takes and calls for punishment after the 2nd incident and "the Coach K I knew would have done this" blah blah blah and shove them.

None of Grayson's actions until his overblown emotional response to this third incident, not the the third incident itself mind you, were actually anything that required any punishment to the level of missing a game. They were all incidents where Grayson lot his impulse control and retaliated to lack of a foul call or chippy play by an opponent with chippy play of his own. They were immature, selfish reactions that in the first and third cases resulted in the appropriate form of punishment, a level one fragrant technical. But there was nothing more needed beyond that. These were not actions that remotely but anyone in danger. Someone, I think it was SageGrouse, lamented that he had seen worse stuff on 3rd grade playgrounds.

Now Grayson's emotional outburst last night showed a lack of impulse control that was worrisome. If he loses his calm to that extent then he and Duke need to take a step back to assess the situation. But you know who deserves a significant portion of the blame in that situation. Jay and his media brethren at ESPN and elsewhere. Is Grayson Allen the next hated white player? articles on ESPN after the first incident were utterly ridiculous. Grayson had two minor chippy plays from last year highlighted ad nauseum all summer and into this year (remember Jeff Goodman's piece during the Tip-Off tournament) because it drove ratings and click bait articles for ESPN.

My hot take.

[jbay201]

Grayson Allen screwed up again. I hate it for him, his family and Duke basketball. The chippy play needs to stop. He needs to mature. He has hurt himself and his team.

It is absolutely appropriate for Coach K to suspend Allen for not living up to the standards he expects. But his on court actions absolutely do not rise to the level of outrage expressed by the media. The actions were chippy, unsportsman-like and unbecoming. No one can honestly suggest that they were in any way dangerous. And it would be unprecedented, as far as I can remember, for a league to suspend someone for being childish. It is completely disingenuous to suggest that Allen's actions are so egregious and beyond what goes on in games across the country that Allen should be singled out for this level of scrutiny and punishment.

The media is absolutely culpable in creating this situation. They have been writing about Duke's villain for over a year now. They have mentioned his tripping incidents ad nauseum, even in games that Duke is not involved in. They have ignored his excellent academics, his heavy course load, etc. They have been irresponsible and reprehensible. The top 5 "blocks" on the ESPN NCAA page right now are

"How Long Should Grayson Allen Sit"
"Where is the criticism for Coach K"
"Grayson Allen's History of Tripping"
"Duke's Season Depends on Whether Grayson Allen Can Grow Up"
"Greenburg Believes Duke Needs to Get Allen Help"

Last night, while still at the game, I checked ESPN at Allen was 3 of the top 5 stories on the front page. His trip and Coach K's reaction were placed above Bob Stoops first comments regarding the video of his star running back punching a young woman in the face resulting in mulitiple facial fractures. (FWIW, he admits he saw the video before and that, perhaps, Mixon should have been dismissed if it happened today).

Dana O'Neil, a Penn State grad who idolized Joe Pa growing up, had 2 articles up - meaning she has now written more about Grayson Allen's tripping incidents than she has about the child rape scandal at her own alma mater.

For Greenburg to comment on any player's behavior, or any coach's response is absolutely ridiculous. Greenburg's teams were notoriously dirty. He coached Jeff Allen, who was suspended for 2 games for elbowing a referee, suspended for making an obscene gesture to the crowd, and ejected for elbowing a UVA player in the face. After the 3rd incident Greenburg was asked if he would hold Allen out of the next game responded "Why would I. He served his punishment yesterday." Curiously, no mention of getting Allen the help he obviously needed.

Many Duke fans may remember Deron Washington as the VT player that kicked Melchioni in the face while he lay in the floor. In a later trip to Cameron, Washington (quoting a writer who disliked Duke and Paulus) "the Virginia Tech Forward proceeded to flop, trip players, try to get into the Duke huddle, start a fight with Paulus, AND undercut Demarcus Nelson on a dunk attempt. It’s one thing to flop and look like a complete idiot (*ahem* Paulus) but actually trying to injure people during a game is unforgivable. That undercut of Nelson was premeditated and dirty as hell. Washington should be suspended for at least a game if not more."

The trip was against Singler as he ran full speed down the court and resulted in a flagrant foul for Washington. From the Richmond Times Dispatch "Instead of just bouncing back and defending them hard, we were trying to pick fights," freshman point guard Hank Thorns said. "I think that's good for us as well. It shows aggressiveness and [that] we're not going to back down from nobody." What was Greenburg's response? "Both teams were a little frisky," Greenberg said. "I'm sure [Greg] Paulus is probably tired of seeing the bottom of Deron's shorts." This was a taunt referring to a dunk Washington had over Paulus in an earlier game.

In the side bar Myron Metcalf says that Allen should be suspended a minimum of 3 games. He reasons that is you went to the mall and tripped a random patron "the next step is jail and a civil suit". Luke Eddy would also be in jail if he ran up behind a random person at the mall and forcefully grabbed them from behind. You can't push strangers, dive on them to take their packages, or tackle them, etc. But it happens in sports. The comparison is asinine, which is why it is not normally applied to individuals on the field or court. It is a standard reserved for Grayson Allen.

Allen is obviously having a problem dealing with pressure. Its a pretty safe bet that the greatest pressure he faces is the intense media scrutiny and resulting public backlash that he has faced. Its unnatural for anyone, let alone a quiet young man who clearly does not like the attention. The media has been relentless in their scrutiny of Allen. His 3 incidents combined were not nearly as bad as the elbow the Louisville player threw to his face last year, but there was not a peep about that incident. To say there is a double standard does not do this justice. They want hits, but they are willingly destroying this kid in the process.

This was the best response by far! I also remember Chaney, temple's coach, who told one of his players to keep fouling the other team, which resulted in one player's arm being broke...not sure if the player even got a suspension. Reporting these days is garbage in sports...so many useless articles just to attract the soap opera crowd and draw ratings. It's much easier to do that rather than actual research on teams and players. I have no respect for journalists especially at ESPN.

[Indoor66]

I have been a constant observer of this forum for quite a few years now, and have never taken part in any discussion. I have always admired the intelligence, wit, humor, and more specifically the unmatched loyalty to the program. I have grown to be a Duke fan our of pure admiration, respect, and love for Coach K and the people/players that he has surrounded himself with. My first Duke game was a few weeks ago in Vegas, and it amazed me how I felt at home with all of the Duke fans. I got a chance to meet each individual player after the game, and shake hands with coach K. I'm sure many of you feel the same way, but after being so devoted to the basketball team, its seems as though you personally know and deeply care about these kids and coaching staff without ever meeting them. That being said, my heart goes out to Grayson. We have all experienced the consequences of poor decisions. How many times have you prayed that it was a dream, and that you would wake up and everything would be ok? I played a professional sport, and have coached at high levels. One thing can be said, and that is if you gave me 5 Grayson Allen's on a basketball court, Ill win. If you gave me 9 GA's on a baseball field, Ill kick your I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.. If you give me 11 GA's on a football field, I'll win again. Coaches wait years for a player of his ability, combined with his passion and heart. Yes, coach K has built a program, at an amazing academic institution that has separated itself in terms of class, ethics, and accountability. However, deep down inside coaches love the type of kid that would rather fist fight before the game, and then beat you down again during the game. The best coaches (coach K) have the ability to pull the reins back and keep that kid on the edge. IMO, Grayson is always on that edge, and I love him for it. I have a feeling that coach's talk with him went something like, "don't change a thing about who you are, and how you play. We just have to find a way to keep you from crossing that line." I highly doubt coach K would want to change anything about his game, or his character. His suspension isn't about punishment, its about teaching, caring, and ultimately his future endeavors. I could care less about what the rest of the college basketball world thinks about Grayson. He is that players that other players and fans love to hate, but would LOVE to have him playing for them. Coach K instills a killer instinct in all of his players. Some are receptive to it, others not so much. Grayson walked onto the floor his freshman year already having the killer instinct. His actions on the floor last night and last year are out of his relentless desire to win, he hates losing. He is a winner. Yeah he crossed the line, but he never committed an action with the sole intent to injure another player. Duke players are taught to be, asked to be, and fans want to see a relentless desire to win. His actions on the bench crossed the line, but he wears his emotions on his sleeve and let them out in an environment that was viewed be everyone. I don't know about you guys, but I am going to embrace his passion. He pours his heart into the one thing that we all love, and that is Duke basketball. Poor decision or not, I've got your back Grayson. Thank you for you effort. Thank you for wearing the jersey. Cant wait for you to be back.

Nicely said. It is time for the indignation prince's to let the discussion die and allow the matter to play out.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

While this article has some good points about not hiding from your actions and I agree with Uh no that Jay definitely wants what's best for Grayson, I think it is Jay's half-hearted response to make some peace with the Duke family. He can take his hot takes and calls for punishment after the 2nd incident and "the Coach K I knew would have done this" blah blah blah and shove them.

None of Grayson's actions until his overblown emotional response to this third incident, not the the third incident itself mind you, were actually anything that required any punishment to the level of missing a game. They were all incidents where Grayson lot his impulse control and retaliated to lack of a foul call or chippy play by an opponent with chippy play of his own. They were immature, selfish reactions that in the first and third cases resulted in the appropriate form of punishment, a level one fragrant technical. But there was nothing more needed beyond that. These were not actions that remotely but anyone in danger. Someone, I think it was SageGrouse, lamented that he had seen worse stuff on 3rd grade playgrounds.

Now Grayson's emotional outburst last night showed a lack of impulse control that was worrisome. If he loses his calm to that extent then he and Duke need to take a step back to assess the situation. But you know who deserves a significant portion of the blame in that situation. Jay and his media brethren at ESPN and elsewhere. Is Grayson Allen the next hated white player? articles on ESPN after the first incident were utterly ridiculous. Grayson had two minor chippy plays from last year highlighted ad nauseum all summer and into this year (remember Jeff Goodman's piece during the Tip-Off tournament) because it drove ratings and click bait articles for ESPN.

My hot take.

Shouldn't we expect our players to conduct themselves with more self-control than third graders?

[jv001]

I have been a constant observer of this forum for quite a few years now, and have never taken part in any discussion. I have always admired the intelligence, wit, humor, and more specifically the unmatched loyalty to the program. I have grown to be a Duke fan our of pure admiration, respect, and love for Coach K and the people/players that he has surrounded himself with. My first Duke game was a few weeks ago in Vegas, and it amazed me how I felt at home with all of the Duke fans. I got a chance to meet each individual player after the game, and shake hands with coach K. I'm sure many of you feel the same way, but after being so devoted to the basketball team, its seems as though you personally know and deeply care about these kids and coaching staff without ever meeting them. That being said, my heart goes out to Grayson. We have all experienced the consequences of poor decisions. How many times have you prayed that it was a dream, and that you would wake up and everything would be ok? I played a professional sport, and have coached at high levels. One thing can be said, and that is if you gave me 5 Grayson Allen's on a basketball court, Ill win. If you gave me 9 GA's on a baseball field, Ill kick your I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.. If you give me 11 GA's on a football field, I'll win again. Coaches wait years for a player of his ability, combined with his passion and heart. Yes, coach K has built a program, at an amazing academic institution that has separated itself in terms of class, ethics, and accountability. However, deep down inside coaches love the type of kid that would rather fist fight before the game, and then beat you down again during the game. The best coaches (coach K) have the ability to pull the reins back and keep that kid on the edge. IMO, Grayson is always on that edge, and I love him for it. I have a feeling that coach's talk with him went something like, "don't change a thing about who you are, and how you play. We just have to find a way to keep you from crossing that line." I highly doubt coach K would want to change anything about his game, or his character. His suspension isn't about punishment, its about teaching, caring, and ultimately his future endeavors. I could care less about what the rest of the college basketball world thinks about Grayson. He is that players that other players and fans love to hate, but would LOVE to have him playing for them. Coach K instills a killer instinct in all of his players. Some are receptive to it, others not so much. Grayson walked onto the floor his freshman year already having the killer instinct. His actions on the floor last night and last year are out of his relentless desire to win, he hates losing. He is a winner. Yeah he crossed the line, but he never committed an action with the sole intent to injure another player. Duke players are taught to be, asked to be, and fans want to see a relentless desire to win. His actions on the bench crossed the line, but he wears his emotions on his sleeve and let them out in an environment that was viewed be everyone. I don't know about you guys, but I am going to embrace his passion. He pours his heart into the one thing that we all love, and that is Duke basketball. Poor decision or not, I've got your back Grayson. Thank you for you effort. Thank you for wearing the jersey. Cant wait for you to be back.

A great first post and please post more often. I'm hoping Grayson uses the Duke/Grayson hate to motivate him to greatness. GoDuke!

[tbyers11]

Shouldn't we expect our players to conduct themselves with more self-control than third graders?

Yes, when they have extreme outbursts like last night. When they have an impulsive retaliatory action they might not get discipline at a third grade recess then I think the flagrant one technical assessed during the game by the rules of the game was sufficient punishment from a suspension point of view. I'm sure that Coach K handled the previous transgressions appropriately from within.

[A-Tex Devil]

I am ultimately fine if Grayson sits 3 games. Seems exorbitant but he brought it on himself.

But Bob Stoops and Joe Mixon should take Grayson out for an expensive steak dinner for pushing them off the front page. That's the tragedy in this whole thing - that a much more serious incident has been whitewashed partly because of the 24 hour news cycle.

[OldPhiKap]

I have been a constant observer of this forum for quite a few years now, and have never taken part in any discussion. I have always admired the intelligence, wit, humor, and more specifically the unmatched loyalty to the program. I have grown to be a Duke fan our of pure admiration, respect, and love for Coach K and the people/players that he has surrounded himself with. My first Duke game was a few weeks ago in Vegas, and it amazed me how I felt at home with all of the Duke fans. I got a chance to meet each individual player after the game, and shake hands with coach K. I'm sure many of you feel the same way, but after being so devoted to the basketball team, its seems as though you personally know and deeply care about these kids and coaching staff without ever meeting them. That being said, my heart goes out to Grayson. We have all experienced the consequences of poor decisions. How many times have you prayed that it was a dream, and that you would wake up and everything would be ok? I played a professional sport, and have coached at high levels. One thing can be said, and that is if you gave me 5 Grayson Allen's on a basketball court, Ill win. If you gave me 9 GA's on a baseball field, Ill kick your I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.. If you give me 11 GA's on a football field, I'll win again. Coaches wait years for a player of his ability, combined with his passion and heart. Yes, coach K has built a program, at an amazing academic institution that has separated itself in terms of class, ethics, and accountability. However, deep down inside coaches love the type of kid that would rather fist fight before the game, and then beat you down again during the game. The best coaches (coach K) have the ability to pull the reins back and keep that kid on the edge. IMO, Grayson is always on that edge, and I love him for it. I have a feeling that coach's talk with him went something like, "don't change a thing about who you are, and how you play. We just have to find a way to keep you from crossing that line." I highly doubt coach K would want to change anything about his game, or his character. His suspension isn't about punishment, its about teaching, caring, and ultimately his future endeavors. I could care less about what the rest of the college basketball world thinks about Grayson. He is that players that other players and fans love to hate, but would LOVE to have him playing for them. Coach K instills a killer instinct in all of his players. Some are receptive to it, others not so much. Grayson walked onto the floor his freshman year already having the killer instinct. His actions on the floor last night and last year are out of his relentless desire to win, he hates losing. He is a winner. Yeah he crossed the line, but he never committed an action with the sole intent to injure another player. Duke players are taught to be, asked to be, and fans want to see a relentless desire to win. His actions on the bench crossed the line, but he wears his emotions on his sleeve and let them out in an environment that was viewed be everyone. I don't know about you guys, but I am going to embrace his passion. He pours his heart into the one thing that we all love, and that is Duke basketball. Poor decision or not, I've got your back Grayson. Thank you for you effort. Thank you for wearing the jersey. Cant wait for you to be back.

Great post, hope you join the conversation more often!

[Nugget]

On all three tripping incidents, Grayson was angry about fouls not being called or the physical play against him. When he comes back, no doubt another player is going to try to intimidate him with rough play. Grayson is wound tight and that's both good and bad. I love his hustle and passion for Duke University, but last night he went way too far. The trip was bad enough but then his outburst on the bench was way over the top. I think when Coach K saw that this morning or late last night, that was the straw that broke the camels back. He had to do something not only for the team but for Grayson the person. Now it's up to Grayson to get it so to speak. I think he can with help from his family, the team, coaches and Duke fans. No doubt he'll hear more boos than he's ever heard in his life, he'll just have to figure out how to make those boos make him a stronger player and person. I'm rooting for him to succeed. GoDuke!

I think this is exactly right and also why the suspension had to be indefinite -- it simply isn't possible at this point for Coach K to know how long it will take for Grayson to be sufficiently in control that he can (for lack of a better term) "roll with the punches" and accept the combination of physical/borderline dirty play and gamesmanship that other players will hit him with having seen he can be provoked + the crowd animosity without boiling over.

One guy whom I'd hope Grayson could lean on in addressing this is JJ Redick, who probably went through the closest combination of being a "hated Duke white guy" + constant physical provocation and seemed to have the emotional makeup to channel that into positive play without losing his cool.

[sagegrouse]

I feel bad for Allen because you cannot fully control your emotions in the moment. It is what makes him the player it is. But he has a big spotlight on him. I feel bad for him because he can only do so much. If you take away his emotion though some combination of mood altering drugs- you take away Allen. It is doubtful he can do anything now to curtail it. It may just take time for the emotional maturity to kick in. Learning to play without it will be hard- he may never be the same player. And there is no way to make sure this does not happen again. It is like a wobbly ACL- it could snap at any time.

Grayson's reaction after the foul was called approximates Ol' Sage's choler if he skulls a chip shot on the 18th hole and loses a $2 match on men's day. I wouldn't wait too long for "emotional maturity to kick in."

[wsb3]

For Greenburg to comment on any player's behavior, or any coach's response is absolutely ridiculous. Greenburg's teams were notoriously dirty. He coached Jeff Allen, who was suspended for 2 games for elbowing a referee, suspended for making an obscene gesture to the crowd, and ejected for elbowing a UVA player in the face. After the 3rd incident Greenburg was asked if he would hold Allen out of the next game responded "Why would I. He served his punishment yesterday." Curiously, no mention of getting Allen the help he obviously needed.

Many Duke fans may remember Deron Washington as the VT player that kicked Melchioni in the face while he lay in the floor. In a later trip to Cameron, Washington (quoting a writer who disliked Duke and Paulus) "the Virginia Tech Forward proceeded to flop, trip players, try to get into the Duke huddle, start a fight with Paulus, AND undercut Demarcus Nelson on a dunk attempt. It’s one thing to flop and look like a complete idiot (*ahem* Paulus) but actually trying to injure people during a game is unforgivable. That undercut of Nelson was premeditated and dirty as hell. Washington should be suspended for at least a game if not more."

The trip was against Singler as he ran full speed down the court and resulted in a flagrant foul for Washington. From the Richmond Times Dispatch "Instead of just bouncing back and defending them hard, we were trying to pick fights," freshman point guard Hank Thorns said. "I think that's good for us as well. It shows aggressiveness and [that] we're not going to back down from nobody." What was Greenburg's response? "Both teams were a little frisky," Greenberg said. "I'm sure [Greg] Paulus is probably tired of seeing the bottom of Deron's shorts." This was a taunt referring to a dunk Washington had over Paulus in an earlier game.

I am disappointed in Grayson's behavior as well but for Seth Greensburg to get sanctimonious is a little much to digest. His hyprocracy knows no bounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub8uMcLiKJk

[duke4ever19]

In the side bar Myron Metcalf says that Allen should be suspended a minimum of 3 games. He reasons that is you went to the mall and tripped a random patron "the next step is jail and a civil suit". Luke Eddy would also be in jail if he ran up behind a random person at the mall and forcefully grabbed them from behind. You can't push strangers, dive on them to take their packages, or tackle them, etc. But it happens in sports. The comparison is asinine, which is why it is not normally applied to individuals on the field or court. It is a standard reserved for Grayson Allen..

Ugh. These types of comparisons to Allen's situation are lazy and don't pass even cursory examination.

The two most valuable classes I took in college were Elementary Logic and Symbolic Logic. People in writing intensive classes (I'm looking at you, journalists.) should be required to take at least one of those classes.

[Fish80]

Grayson's event is a story on World News Tonight on ABC.

[dukelion]

First Doug Gotlieb is running to Allen's defense and now Gregg Doyel (http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2016/12/22/doyel-grayson-allen-you-have-change/95752918/). What in the world is going on.

But seriously, that article by Doyel is amazing. Give it a read.


Wow.....I used to hate Doyel.......everyone should read this.

[WillJ]

Quite a different precipitating event, but I always liked what Jim Valvano said to Lorenzo Charles after he was caught mugging a Domino's pizza delivery person. "Son, this can be the start of a tragedy, or it can be the start of a a victory. It all depends on where you go from here." I probably butchered that slightly, but Lorenzo went in a good direction.

On the subject of impulse control, we all have problems with that and Grayson's are perhaps more severe and certainly more public than most, but it's still something I can identify with. We should be more generous in our judgments, both of our own and other team's players as well. Though I'm pretty sure that Tyler H is going to have some trouble at the pearly gates over all that traveling.

[moonpie23]

I suspect Grayson's meltdown last night was the nature of the Technical......Another "tripping" foul.....it could have been ANYTHING but that. He could have gone Gerald Henderson or Chris Paul on the elon player and it probably wouldn't have resulted in that meltdown..


he knew he had tagged himself for a long time to come.... :(

[Devilwin]

Doesn't look like Chris learned his lesson..
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEViPXbFxYWWoAIxQnnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTEyMnRlY3Z vBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMzBHZ0aWQDQjMyNTlfMQRzZWMDc3I-/RV=2/RE=1482480983/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fbleacherreport.com%2farticles%2f26 23538-chris-paul-reportedly-could-be-fined-or-suspended-for-groin-hit-on-kevin-durant/RK=0/RS=seMFWiUgceEUe3qvCwq0nwvrG0s-

[weezie]

...You don't ask or allow alumni journalists to report on negative stories about their alma maters...

Yeah, I guess JWill just went off free of charge. Off the proverbial cuff, no withholding taxes included.

I tell youse what though, when GA comes back, I hope it's in Cameron where this Crustie will be loud and loyal. The roof will thunder.

[OZ]

Thanks for the link. Good personal account of a person out of control and how he was able to overcome it. He sounds sincere in hoping Grayson can overcome his anger. Even hopes Grayson reads the story.

On all three tripping incidents, Grayson was angry about fouls not being called or the physical play against him. When he comes back, no doubt another player is going to try to intimidate him with rough play. Grayson is wound tight and that's both good and bad. I love his hustle and passion for Duke University, but last night he went way too far. The trip was bad enough but then his outburst on the bench was way over the top. I think when Coach K saw that this morning or late last night, that was the straw that broke the camels back. He had to do something not only for the team but for Grayson the person. Now it's up to Grayson to get it so to speak. I think he can with help from his family, the team, coaches and Duke fans. No doubt he'll hear more boos than he's ever heard in his life, he'll just have to figure out how to make those boos make him a stronger player and person. I'm rooting for him to succeed. GoDuke!

I think Coach K summed up his actions/reasons rather well on Dan Patrick's show...
"I worry about him because, obviously, the impact it has had on him at a very, very deep level. A very, very deep level. And so that's very concerning to me. ... I've been in constant touch with Grayson in making sure he's OK, that we are taking steps."

This is the reason that whatever happens, I trust Coach K to do the right thing. Grayson and Duke...they are both in good hands and I really don't need to know more than that.

[fisheyes]

Grayson's event is a story on World News Tonight on ABC.

And the NBC Nightly News too.

Really shocked to see it on the national news.
There are some pretty important events occurring in our world right now and this isn't one of them.
The network news is simply trying to compete with social media.
They should be ashamed.

[MChambers]

Barry Svrluga of the WaPo writes a very dumb column, continuing the tradition in the last ten years of ridiculous Post reporting on Coach K:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/coach-k-suspends-grayson-allen--10-months-too-late/2016/12/22/f6722616-c868-11e6-bf4b-2c064d32a4bf_story.html?utm_term=.be1bb7ca241d

I'd cancel our subscription, but my wife really likes getting the Post. I only use it to wrap fish.

[Saratoga2]

And the NBC Nightly News too.

Really shocked to see it on the national news.
There are some pretty important events occurring in our world right now and this isn't one of them.
The network news is simply trying to compete with social media.
They should be ashamed.

I totally agree with this.It's
known as piling on.

[Tripping William]

Thinking I might now have the least-popular user-name in DBR history.....

[duke74]

Barry Svrluga of the WaPo writes a very dumb column, continuing the tradition in the last ten years of ridiculous Post reporting on Coach K:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/coach-k-suspends-grayson-allen--10-months-too-late/2016/12/22/f6722616-c868-11e6-bf4b-2c064d32a4bf_story.html?utm_term=.be1bb7ca241d

I'd cancel our subscription, but my wife really likes getting the Post. I only use it to wrap fish.

I use the bag my NY Times comes in for picking up after my dog. Best thing about that paper.

[cspan37421]

Barry Svrluga of the WaPo writes a very dumb column, continuing the tradition in the last ten years of ridiculous Post reporting on Coach K:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/coach-k-suspends-grayson-allen--10-months-too-late/2016/12/22/f6722616-c868-11e6-bf4b-2c064d32a4bf_story.html?utm_term=.be1bb7ca241d

I'd cancel our subscription, but my wife really likes getting the Post. I only use it to wrap fish.

Worth pointing out: Barry is a Duke alumnus.

[Bluegrassdevil1]

Thinking I might now have the least-popular user-name in DBR history....

Far better than "Time Bomb, "Gravedigger, "Let You Down, "Say Goodbye, "Gas Into Fire," or "Deed is Done."

How you did not choose "Some Devil" is beyond me, though.

[Furniture]

Thanks Newton. I seen Schyerer with GA, but did not see Kennard nor Jack helping Allen. I'm just concerned about the mindset of the team concept. Maybe a very negative can be turned into an asset for the reminder of the season.

This is complete bollocks! I was at the game and saw Jake White try to console him and he just brushed him away. Delaurier also tried to talk to him as did other players. By the way the tv did not show his whole tantrum. At one point I seriously thought he was heading to the exit. He also threw down his towel. He just lost it and that's that. It happens and as many have already stated it was unacceptable and he will pay his dues for it. To suggest that there is something wrong with the team is wankeroo land out of order.

[dukelifer]

And the NBC Nightly News too.

Really shocked to see it on the national news.
There are some pretty important events occurring in our world right now and this isn't one of them.
The network news is simply trying to compete with social media.
They should be ashamed.

I expect Trump will be tweeting about it later tonight.

[weksray]

Shouldn't we expect our players to conduct themselves with more self-control than third graders?

Shouldn't we expect our self indulgent, self righteous, on their high horse fans to act as compassionate,caring, understanding adults

It is,in truth, quite clear and simple....I continue to support Grayson and look forward to his return

[miramar]

Barry Svrluga of the WaPo writes a very dumb column, continuing the tradition in the last ten years of ridiculous Post reporting on Coach K:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/coach-k-suspends-grayson-allen--10-months-too-late/2016/12/22/f6722616-c868-11e6-bf4b-2c064d32a4bf_story.html?utm_term=.be1bb7ca241d

I'd cancel our subscription, but my wife really likes getting the Post. I only use it to wrap fish.

Don't read the comments section. Could spoil your Christmas.

[sagegrouse]

Barry Svrluga of the WaPo writes a very dumb column, continuing the tradition in the last ten years of ridiculous Post reporting on Coach K:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/coach-k-suspends-grayson-allen--10-months-too-late/2016/12/22/f6722616-c868-11e6-bf4b-2c064d32a4bf_story.html?utm_term=.be1bb7ca241d

I'd cancel our subscription, but my wife really likes getting the Post. I only use it to wrap fish.

Completing the circle, you do know that Barry Svrluga is a Duke grad, don't you?

It was a meaningless column, but this was rich:
... when Allen slyly stuck his left leg out behind him to trip Rathan-Mayes, who was innocently headed upcourt in the waning seconds of a Duke win at Cameron.Rathan-Mayes was "innocently headed upcourt?" He started the whole thing and pushed Grayson!

[devildeac]

Thinking I might now have the least-popular user-name in DBR history...

I think there's a status for that:

6980

(kidding, of course)

[rsvman]

Thinking I might now have the least-popular user-name in DBR history....

I kind of thought it was wonderfully ironic that you were the first person to post about the incident in the game thread. Had to chuckle just a bit. Of course, at that point in time I was looking for anything that could improve my mood....

[cato]

Wojo was a great tripper.

I never knew. Now there are two things Wojo and I have in common.

T '98

[CharlestonDave]

Shouldn't we expect our self indulgent, self righteous, on their high horse fans to act as compassionate,caring, understanding adults

It is,in truth, quite clear and simple...I continue to support Grayson and look forward to his return

Of course we support him , more as a man than as a Duke basketball player. How would you feel if Coach K dismissed him from the team? People have to take responsibilities for their actions and this is the third incident for him. It will be very difficult to defend him when he is called a dirty player, because he just might be.

What if this had been a star player on UNC or a star player on Kentucky , would you feel the same ?

[dukelifer]

Of course we support him , more as a man than as a Duke basketball player. How would you feel if Coach K dismissed him from the team? People have to take responsibilities for their actions and this is the third incident for him. It will be very difficult to defend him when he is called a dirty player, because he just might be.

What if this had been a star player on UNC or a star player on Kentucky , would you feel the same ?

If you look at the three trips- one was childish and two were out of frustration. Some players push out of frustration, some players get into another's players face and yell and some players use their feet. Somehow the trip is viewed as worse. I am not sure why, but some people feel very strongly about this. And in none of the cases was a player hurt. I have no idea why this has become a national story other than Allen has assumed the mantle of the "hated Duke player". This would not be happening with another kid at another program- it would never get this attention. Allen is paying the price for years of Duke hate and the frustration got to him on Wed. I am concerned about that and how it is affecting him- he did not create this - his actions simply led to an easy target.

[PackMan97]

What if this had been a star player on UNC or a star player on Kentucky , would you feel the same ?

If he had tripped a Carolina player, I'd be sending him virtual high fives and thanking Duke for doing what needed to be done.

[moonpie23]

I stand by Grayson. Yes, he made mistakes.....i still stand by him...

[Saratoga2]

Today the story again appeared on the national news and ahead of the story that the suspect who crashed into the Christmas Market in Germany, killing and maiming untold numbers, was killed in Italy. One would ask why a tripping incident in a college game ranks such coverage? I think many of us suspect it fits the agenda of the network news executives. I won't go further.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Today the story again appeared on the national news and ahead of the story that the suspect who crashed into the Christmas Market in Germany, killing and maiming untold numbers, was killed in Italy. One would ask why a tripping incident in a college game ranks such coverage? I think many of us suspect it fits the agenda of the network news executives. I won't go further.

Come on man - there's no conspiratorial "agenda." It is news, because people click/look/read/watch. And the do that because it is Duke and they know Duke and they know Grayson. Do some revel in the fact that it is a Duke player being humbled? Sure, but no more than we would if it were a UNC player.

Is it absurd that it is national news? Of course. But the only reason it is, is that people want to know and want to watch. There is no global conspiracy to bring our program down. I promise.

[MChambers]

Completing the circle, you do know that Barry Svrluga is a Duke grad, don't you?


Worth pointing out: Barry is a Duke alumnus.

If I knew that, I forgot it. (But so is John Feinstein, and I can't stand him.) Overall Svrluga's body of work is competent. He did a nice series on the meltdown of the Washington Nationals in 2015, although he went over the top on some of it, and followed it up with some cleary erroneous articles on the 2015 offseason.

But this column is so bad I doubt I'll ever read him again.

[slower]

If he had tripped a Carolina player, I'd be sending him virtual high fives and thanking Duke for doing what needed to be done.

And if he had punched Brice Johnson in the nuts, I would have retroactively named both of my daughters after him.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

And if he had punched Brice Johnson in the nuts, I would have retroactively named both of my daughters after him.

You get points!

[CameronBlue]

And if he had punched Brice Johnson in the nuts, I would have retroactively named both of my daughters after him.

Now that's what I call a proportional response, one daughter per....no, no, I'll just drop this

[PackMan97]

Today the story again appeared on the national news and ahead of the story that the suspect who crashed into the Christmas Market in Germany, killing and maiming untold numbers, was killed in Italy. One would ask why a tripping incident in a college game ranks such coverage? I think many of us suspect it fits the agenda of the network news executives. I won't go further.

The masses must be distracted from all the bad stuff in the world lest they dwell on that stuff for too long. I think EVERYONE (include Tarholes and UK fans) can agree, Allen isn't important but he is a great distraction. So, let folks carry on about how evil Duke is (you guys did pick a devil as a mascot) so we don't have to think about all the other bad stuff in the world.

[wavedukefan70s]

And if he had punched Brice Johnson in the nuts, I would have retroactively named both of my daughters after him.

Bravo ,there went my coffee .