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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 72, Elon 61 Post Game Thread



Bob Green
12-21-2016, 07:59 PM
Discuss the game here.

NashvilleDevil
12-21-2016, 08:03 PM
Thank goodness Christmas is coming so the Grayson think pieces and hot takes will disappear with all the noise this weekend. Break from school and basketball will do some good. Once this team gels it should be special but it's going to take time. Good to see Giles make a couple of plays in the 2nd half. Whatever is going on between Bilden's ears needs to be fixed he's an important part of this team's future success

MrPoon
12-21-2016, 08:04 PM
Half time with Jay and Seth is brutal. Jay called acc to suspend 5 games, Seth thinks the acc didn't suspend last season because it Duke.
Brutal....all self inflicted.

Kjeffrey
12-21-2016, 08:06 PM
Half time with Jay and Seth is brutal. Jay called acc to suspend 5 games, Seth thinks the acc didn't suspend last season because it Duke.
Brutal...all self inflicted.

I agree with everything Jay Williams said. Seth was over the top and I am glad Rece Davis called him on it.

Tripping William
12-21-2016, 08:07 PM
One overarching word: Disappointing.

NashvilleDevil
12-21-2016, 08:07 PM
Half time with Jay and Seth is brutal. Jay called acc to suspend 5 games, Seth thinks the acc didn't suspend last season because it Duke.
Brutal...all self inflicted.

Well Jay's checks are signed by a UNC grad so he has to go over the top. Grayson will probably get 2 games and do community service.

weezie
12-21-2016, 08:08 PM
Let's see what K says please, anybody watching the presser?

Hancock 4 Duke
12-21-2016, 08:08 PM
I think Grayson needs to be punished. But I also want to know what was going through his mind and what he was saying when he threw that tantrum...he was either justifying what he did, upset with himself, or saying the call was unjustified. I'm sure he knows the backlash that will come from this, considering everything last year.

MrPoon
12-21-2016, 08:09 PM
I hope K sets the penalty, not the league

jbay201
12-21-2016, 08:10 PM
Giles will be good just give him time...he needs to regain trust in his knees. Any player would be hesitant after having two major knee surgeries and a third minor one. He definitely made progress today.

Grayson's our best PG and had some great assists that helped jump spark the offense when he came back. Luke remains our best player. Tatum was a beast. Amile was a bit quiet. Jackson struggled but looks like he is recovering from minor sprain as he just doesn't have the same lift as before and announcers mentioned something about managing his minutes. Matt Jones played well especially on defense had at least 3 steals. Bolden and Chase will just not get much playing time against small teams that are either quick or rely on the 3 point shot.

VT will be a challenge but I don't think our guys will come out flat as we did these past two games as they will respect VT. We should have at least 2 full practices prior to the game. I think Giles will get his first dunk against them also!

CameronDuke
12-21-2016, 08:11 PM
Anyone know any anger management doctors or reputable mental health psychiatrists in the Durham area? Grayson could use some help...

Indoor66
12-21-2016, 08:11 PM
Tatum needs to learn when to pass. He was too much of a black hole.

deezl
12-21-2016, 08:14 PM
I guess Jason Williams didn't catch this game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdkaw9Hw0UA

subzero02
12-21-2016, 08:17 PM
I might make Grayson sit out the first half of a game but that's it. Did the ACC suspend Chris Paul for his Johnny Cage nut shots?

6th Man
12-21-2016, 08:17 PM
I think Grayson needs to be punished. But I also want to know what was going through his mind and what he was saying when he threw that tantrum...he was either justifying what he did, upset with himself, or saying the call was unjustified. I'm sure he knows the backlash that will come from this, considering everything last year.

You can read his lips...he was mad at the call. That was an embarrassment to himself and Duke University. K should not have played him in the second half and he should be suspended. Even if he was antagonized you have to rise above it. He deserves all the backlash he gets.

ipatent
12-21-2016, 08:18 PM
Elon is a fundamentally sound team. It's a good thing Duke shot 16 more free throws, because Elon won on the boards and shot better from three point range. Matt Jones has taken a lot of heat the past several weeks, but I thought he had a sound game.

Kjeffrey
12-21-2016, 08:20 PM
You can read his lips...he was mad at the call. That was an embarrassment to himself and Duke University. K should not have played him in the second half and he should be suspended. Even if he was antagonized you have to rise above it. He deserves all the backlash he gets.

Couldn't agree more. I also can't help but wonder why K hasn't taken a tougher stance with him. When is enough enough?

Chicago 1995
12-21-2016, 08:21 PM
What's the point of these games if we're going to give Giles and Bolden less than 20 minutes over these two games? It's not going to get easier to find them minutes against ACC competition. I know both look rough and rusty. I don't care. These were a great opportunity to let them play off some of that rust. Instead? Ugh.

And Allen shouldn't have been on the floor the second half. Jay might be over the top, but the idea that Grayson needs punishment for this given his past actions is, IMO, dead right.

ipatent
12-21-2016, 08:21 PM
I think Grayson needs to be punished. But I also want to know what was going through his mind and what he was saying when he threw that tantrum...he was either justifying what he did, upset with himself, or saying the call was unjustified. I'm sure he knows the backlash that will come from this, considering everything last year.

It was an apparently incongruous reaction, you would think from the way he reacted that it happened because he lost his balance and he was frustrated. The replay looked like an intentional trip, so unless there's some energy beam that lifted his leg against his will I don't see a basis for his attitude.

MartyClark
12-21-2016, 08:21 PM
I don't think I have ever felt as sad about a single event in a Duke game.

1. Duke looked lost tonight after the Grayson event. Duke should have won by 30+ based on talent. Kudos to Elon for playing a disciplined game but the height/talent disparity was huge.

2. Grayson is a great player and, by all accounts, a great kid. I was so distressed to see him trip/kick his opponent. I was very concerned about his emotional reaction on the bench. This could be a season changer for Grayson and the team.

I've coached at a low level. I've mentored students in high school, college, law school, and seminary. My unscientific observation is that some young people are just wired wrong in certain areas. Otherwise good people react in an instinctive, and unacceptable, manner to some stimuli.

I'm worried about Grayson and this team.

6th Man
12-21-2016, 08:21 PM
I might make Grayson sit out the first half of a game but that's it. Did the ACC suspend Chris Paul for his Johnny Cage nut shots?

If memory serves correct Paul was suspended for the first game of the ACC Tournament. The next game after the "low blow".

SlapTheFloor
12-21-2016, 08:23 PM
I think we're all pretty disappointed in Grayson. I expect our coaching staff to support him, but I also expect them to teach him. He keeps making the same mistakes. We can't keep treating those mistakes in the same way and expect different results.

Hancock 4 Duke
12-21-2016, 08:23 PM
Grayson's reaction was very extreme based on the series of events that went down. Hope he's mentally alright.

Merlindevildog91
12-21-2016, 08:24 PM
Sure didn't look like a trip from section 114. That being said, Grayson needs to realize he has a great big bulls eye right between his eyes, and no ref will take any heat for allowing him to be clobbered and swallowing his whistle or for calling him for a foul on every colorable opportunuty.

Hancock 4 Duke
12-21-2016, 08:25 PM
Does anybody have a link to the press conference?

CDu
12-21-2016, 08:25 PM
Sure didn't look like a trip from section 114. That being said, Grayson needs to realize he has a great big bulls eye right between his eyes, and no ref will take any heat for allowing him to be clobbered and swallowing his whistle or for calling him for a foul on every colorable opportunuty.

It was a trip. No doubt about it.

Bob Green
12-21-2016, 08:26 PM
Sure didn't look like a trip from section 114.

I'm not sure if it was a trip or a kick but once you have an opportunity to watch the replay on TV a dozen time I'm certain you will agree it was intentional.

OldPhiKap
12-21-2016, 08:27 PM
Sure didn't look like a trip from section 114. That being said, Grayson needs to realize he has a great big bulls eye right between his eyes, and no ref will take any heat for allowing him to be clobbered and swallowing his whistle or for calling him for a foul on every colorable opportunuty.

Yeah, it's pretty blatant unfortunately. Like, stupid blatant. Like, clearly stupid consciously-done blatant.

Merlindevildog91
12-21-2016, 08:29 PM
Ok. They didn't show any lower body ANYTHING on the big screen at the Coliseum, only that their arms were locked up on the original foul. Dude got up grinning like the Cheshire Cat, too.

scottdude8
12-21-2016, 08:31 PM
If anyone can post any comments regarding the trip from K and/or the players when they are available I would really appreciate it, as I'm sure would the rest of the board. I'm hoping someone directly addresses the issue and the program doesn't skirt around it and further feed the Duke hate machine.

I keep trying to rationalize this in my head but I can't. Every indication is that Grayson is not just a good, but a great person off the court, and then he does something like this. It's sad, it's frustrating, it's indefensible. And yet it's all the more sad and frustrating because we all know that Grayson isn't a bad person, and as a very young man may not be ready or able to deal with the flood of hate that is about to come at him yet again.

I just feel sick right now, and I can only hope that Grayson grows from this and the team addresses this in the correct fashion, which HAS to be a suspension of some variety IMHO.

MCFinARL
12-21-2016, 08:33 PM
It was a trip. No doubt about it.

Well, it was really more of a kick than a trip, which might be why it wasn't clear from the stands. But it was certainly something that was almost impossible to read as inadvertent.

That was bad but the explosion on the bench may actually have been worse. I would have been happier if Grayson didn't get off the bench in the second half, and I will be very unhappy if Coach K does not impose some sanctions before the ACC does--otherwise we will hear all season about the sleaziness of the whole Duke program.

On the bright side, some good plays from other players, most obviously Kennard and Tatum.

duke4ever19
12-21-2016, 08:35 PM
Ok. They didn't show any lower body ANYTHING on the big screen at the Coliseum, only that their arms were locked up on the original foul. Dude got up grinning like the Cheshire Cat, too.

You see, this is the type of "game-within-the-game" stuff that Grayson Allen isn't emotionally mature enough to handle yet.

Grayson would have hated being guarded by Tyler Thornton. For an example, re-watch this years' Blue-White scrimmage and see visible frustration with Matt Jones guarding him.

He can't handle the little tricks these savvy players pull when the refs aren't looking.

Ballboy1998
12-21-2016, 08:36 PM
Yeah, it's pretty blatant unfortunately. Like, stupid blatant. Like, clearly stupid consciously-done blatant.

I agree that on replay it is clearly an intentional move by Allen, and an inexcusable one given the prior instances. That said, I think that slow-mo does have a tendency to make things look more deliberate than they actually are.

I'm kind of at a loss on how to explain the repeated actions by Allen, but at some level I think it might just be an extension of his generally reckless style of play -- he is often off-balance and sort of flailing his limbs, and some of this might be him just sort of unthinkingly flailing his limbs to maintain contact / not let a guy get past him. Likely just grasping at straws by me, and perhaps a distinction without a difference, but I don't think he is consciously making an effort to trip the guy as much as flailing to maintain contact / not let the guy past and it manifests itself in what can only be described as a trip.

Chicago 1995
12-21-2016, 08:38 PM
Ok. They didn't show any lower body ANYTHING on the big screen at the Coliseum, only that their arms were locked up on the original foul. Dude got up grinning like the Cheshire Cat, too.

Santa Ana baited him into it, no doubt. Grayson's got to be above it, even if Santa Ana is being chippy and trying to elicit the reaction -- which I think he was

TKG
12-21-2016, 08:39 PM
You see, this is the type of "game-within-the-game" stuff that Grayson Allen isn't emotionally mature enough to handle yet.

Grayson would have hated being guarded by Tyler Thornton. For an example, re-watch this years' Blue-White scrimmage and see visible frustration with Matt Jones guarding him.

He can't handle the little tricks these savvy players pull when the refs aren't looking.

Interesting. I watched the Blue-White game and noticed GA's reaction to MJ's defense as well. MJ was in GA's head and Grayson's frustration was obvious.

MrPoon
12-21-2016, 08:41 PM
Going back to the game.
Watching Kentucky, I just don't understand why we walk the ball up so much. With Allen, Tatum, Luke and Jackson (I think even Amil would benefit), seem like we have the weapons to run. Plus I think a lot of the stretches where our offense bogs down and goes ISO, it really highlights our lack of a true PG who can help guys get easy buckets and keep the ball moving.

Against our last two opponents we took some of our athletic advantage out of the game by playing so slow.

lotusland
12-21-2016, 08:42 PM
I want to play UNLV again

Hancock 4 Duke
12-21-2016, 08:43 PM
K saying that he met with Grayson and Santa Ana in the coaches room after the game and Grayson apologized. K said it was unacceptable, Santa Ana replied saying "I'm a competitor, too". That's all that he said about the situation.

Duke76
12-21-2016, 08:44 PM
You can read his lips...he was mad at the call. That was an embarrassment to himself and Duke University. K should not have played him in the second half and he should be suspended. Even if he was antagonized you have to rise above it. He deserves all the backlash he gets.

I dont think K was looking at the replay and probably wouldn't at half time so how would he know....he knows now and think we will all be very disappointed if he doesn't sit him for a couple of games....you could tell Grayson was never in the game and got repeatedly upset as the 1st half wore on....but his defense was horrible, a step slow, lazy. He just really screwed up a great season in the making and now the whole team is once again immersed in controversy...brilliant good buddy, brilliant.

Merlindevildog91
12-21-2016, 08:45 PM
Coach K said Grayson's behavior was inexcusable. That's about all of his press conference I got to hear on the radio.

jwillfan
12-21-2016, 08:47 PM
Anyone know any anger management doctors or reputable mental health psychiatrists in the Durham area? Grayson could use some help...

His name is Dr. Greg Dale and he supports all the varsity teams with the exception of....Men's Basketball. Maybe they can consult him...*should* consult him.

Andre Buckner Fan
12-21-2016, 08:48 PM
I think we're all pretty disappointed in Grayson. I expect our coaching staff to support him, but I also expect them to teach him. He keeps making the same mistakes. We can't keep treating those mistakes in the same way and expect different results.

Third strike. There needs to be something done.

Grayson may be a good kid and all, but three times isn't an accident. Duke should punish him first before the ACC forces their hand.

scottdude8
12-21-2016, 08:48 PM
K saying that he met with Grayson and Santa Ana in the coaches room after the game and Grayson apologized. K said it was unacceptable, Santa Ana replied saying "I'm a competitor, too". That's all that he said about the situation.

If that's all that gets said publicly about the situation I will be seriously disappointed with character of the Duke Basketball program and Coach K for the first time. This incident needs to be treated with the severity it deserves, or Duke risks losing the moral high ground we've enjoyed over institutions like Kentucky and UNC. I know that may sound like catastrophizing, but as unfair as it is given the relative severity of the infractions I think the reputation of Duke Basketball may hinge on how this situation is handled.

Hancock 4 Duke
12-21-2016, 08:48 PM
Also, K kind of implying that he won't be suspended (at least by K himself). Saying he "will handle things how [he] handles them" and also that he isn't going to try to appease people that are telling him how to take care of the situation. K is going to "do more" to make sure this kind of behavior will stop. It distracted the team and Grayson is upset with himself and the fact that he let his team down. K also saying/implying that Grayson's distress is punishment enough for him. Just summarizing what I'm seeing on SportsCenter.

scottdude8
12-21-2016, 08:50 PM
Also, K kind of implying that he won't be suspended (at least by K himself). Saying he "will handle things how [he] handles them" and also that he isn't going to try to appease people that are telling him how to take care of the situation. K is going to "do more" to make sure this kind of behavior will stop. It distracted the team an Grayson is upset with himself and the fact that he let his team down. K also saying/implying that Grayson's distress is punishment enough for him. Just summarizing what I'm seeing on SportsCenter.

Yup, the press conference is on ESPNews right now.

Andre Buckner Fan
12-21-2016, 08:52 PM
Also, K kind of implying that he won't be suspended (at least by K himself). Saying he "will handle things how [he] handles them" and also that he isn't going to try to appease people that are telling him how to take care of the situation. K is going to "do more" to make sure this kind of behavior will stop. It distracted the team and Grayson is upset with himself and the fact that he let his team down. K also saying/implying that Grayson's distress is punishment enough for him. Just summarizing what I'm seeing on SportsCenter.

I hope K reconsiders.

Link?

wavedukefan70s
12-21-2016, 08:53 PM
Santa Ana baited him into it, no doubt. Grayson's got to be above it, even if Santa Ana is being chippy and trying to elicit the reaction -- which I think he was

Yes he was.still G has to be mentally tougher in those situations.

Kjeffrey
12-21-2016, 08:56 PM
I hope K reconsiders.

Link?

I just watched the post game presser on ESPN and agree with this synopsis. Grayson is a captain which makes this situation worse. His behavior more than warrants a suspension but at this point it doesn't seem like that will be the case, at least not initiated by Coach K.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-21-2016, 09:07 PM
The kick/trip was inexcusable, especially given his history. The reaction afterwards was even more worrisome. Most 20 year olds are mature enough not to completely lose it like he did. Flailing, screaming, crying, shouting expletives when you know you are on national television is WAY out of proportion for a technical foul call... even if it were a bad call. Which it wasn't.

Merlindevildog91
12-21-2016, 09:08 PM
I wouldn't call it a trip. It was a kick, which, in my view, is worse. Of course it was all over ESPN. Sigh.

jwillfan
12-21-2016, 09:09 PM
All this focus on Allen is missing the fact that our team has played at a lower level the last 2 games than we've liked, with the exception of Tatum, Kennard and a few bright spots from others. I'm now watching UK/Lvl and the Duke team that took the court the last 2 games would be pummeled by either of these teams. I know we're still integrating injured players - maybe Tatum not so much although he forced it a bit more in tonight's game - but without a high-functioning Allen, and positive contributions from Bolden (who as been unimpressive and thus has played limited minutes) and Giles when he's up to speed, we're stuck in the back half of the top 10.

Ballboy1998
12-21-2016, 09:11 PM
The kick/trip was inexcusable, especially given his history. The reaction afterwards was even more worrisome. Most 20 year olds are mature enough not to completely lose it like he did. Flailing, screaming, crying, shouting expletives when you know you are on national television is WAY out of proportion for a technical foul call... even if it were a bad call. Which it wasn't.

I think this is fair, but you have to assume that Grayson's reaction was informed by his experience with the media reaction last season and knowing that this was going to reignite it. Obviously reacting as he did was exceptionally counter productive, but I think the emotion related more to the "oh no not again" of the pending media storm and hate, and not simply the technical foul.

NashvilleDevil
12-21-2016, 09:11 PM
All this focus on Allen is missing the fact that our team has played at a lower level the last 2 games than we've liked, with the exception of Tatum, Kennard and a few bright spots from others. I'm now watching UK/Lvl and the Duke team that took the court the last 2 games would be pummeled by either of these teams. I know we're still integrating injured players - maybe Tatum not so much although he forced it a bit more in tonight's game - but without a high-functioning Allen, and positive contributions from Bolden (who as been unimpressive and thus has played limited minutes) and Giles when he's up to speed, we're stuck in the back half of the top 10.

K said at the post game Monday that this team is in October and not December. This break, I hope, will be good for the team. Much needed rest, practice time, and bonding. Kennard said in his post game tonight that the team is not playing unselfish basketball. I think they will figure it out in due time. Now to go and finish the phase iii post.

norduck
12-21-2016, 09:19 PM
Anyone know any anger management doctors or reputable mental health psychiatrists in the Durham area? Grayson could use some help...

I do

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-21-2016, 09:20 PM
I think this is fair, but you have to assume that Grayson's reaction was informed by his experience with the media reaction last season and knowing that this was going to reignite it. Obviously reacting as he did was exceptionally counter productive, but I think the emotion related more to the "oh no not again" of the pending media storm and hate, and not simply the technical foul.

Perhaps. Seems like he was definitely initially upset with the referee.

Anyway, the entire episode is disappointing. Tatum's game is coming along quickly, and seems poised to take a serious leadership role. Happy to see Giles break the ice - another ten days may make a huge difference.

I am not concerned about this team's ability to work through this difficult time. I am concerned about Grayson getting his head together, and how that might affect the team.

dukelifer
12-21-2016, 09:24 PM
I agree that on replay it is clearly an intentional move by Allen, and an inexcusable one given the prior instances. That said, I think that slow-mo does have a tendency to make things look more deliberate than they actually are.

I'm kind of at a loss on how to explain the repeated actions by Allen, but at some level I think it might just be an extension of his generally reckless style of play -- he is often off-balance and sort of flailing his limbs, and some of this might be him just sort of unthinkingly flailing his limbs to maintain contact / not let a guy get past him. Likely just grasping at straws by me, and perhaps a distinction without a difference, but I don't think he is consciously making an effort to trip the guy as much as flailing to maintain contact / not let the guy past and it manifests itself in what can only be described as a trip.

Watching the play again- the kid locked him up by the arm and flung him around. Allen overreacted with sticking his leg out. But this was all part of a play in which the other player initiated the locking of limbs- not some random trip after the play like last year. I have seen guys consistently elbow guys on their moves. Is using your feet somehow worse than using your elbow? I am not hoppy with Allen and his reaction- but some of the comments are making this sound like the worse thing they have ever seen on a basketball court. Suspending for 5 games? Really? The kid did not even fall hard. If I were K, I would definitely not start him next game- but suspending him is not going to do anything to help Grayson. What is the point? Will suspending him make him learn his lesson? Do you think Allen is doing this because he knows he can get away with it or that K is easy on him? Grayson has already been hurt by his actions of last year and this just piles on. Allen is a physical player- this stuff can happen during a basketball play. I am sure K is mad at his reactions and emotional outburst. If the league does suspends him- so be it. K may want to sit Allen so he heals up but that is another issue.

dukelifer
12-21-2016, 09:32 PM
The kick/trip was inexcusable, especially given his history. The reaction afterwards was even more worrisome. Most 20 year olds are mature enough not to completely lose it like he did. Flailing, screaming, crying, shouting expletives when you know you are on national television is WAY out of proportion for a technical foul call... even if it were a bad call. Which it wasn't.
Allen is having a tough year and it is wearing on him. The injuries have set him back and he is not being consistent. He is also seeing Kennard having a great season and now Tatum is coming along. I am sure Allen is disappointed in his play and he knows that he is not likely to meet his own personal goals. Allen may figure it out or it could be one of those down seasons. We have seen it before with certain players who by nature are very emotional. Basketball can be a tough sport. It is easy to lose your confidence.

Doria
12-21-2016, 09:36 PM
Allen is having a tough year and it is wearing on him. The injuries have set him back and he is not being consistent. He is also seeing Kennard having a great season and now Tatum is coming along. I am sure Allen is disappointed in his play and he knows that he is not likely to meet his own personal goals. Allen may figure it out or it could be one of those down seasons. We have seen it before with certain players who by nature are very emotional. Basketball can be a tough sport. It is easy to lose your confidence.

I also wonder if the pressure of the heavy courseload he's taking right now may be having him wearing himself thin. It certainly can't be helping give him reserves of fortitude.

vfefrenzy
12-21-2016, 09:38 PM
Get the hell off Mt Pious and give Grayson a break. Everyone in the country calls this kid an a-hole non-stop. Every opposing player gets physical with him because they know the officials will only call some of it. He's an emotional player who has made some mistakes in the heat of a game. And we're talking about tripping people here. Not throwing punches. Not elbows to the face. Not headbutts. If this means Duke no longer has the moral high ground, so be it. I'd rather cheer for a team that takes crap off of no one than one that will let themselves be pushed around.

fuse
12-21-2016, 09:40 PM
Figured the post game thread would be a train wreck.

I won't defend Grayson.

Jay Williams calling for a 5 game suspension when the kid who punched a fan wasn't suspended that long is absurd.

There should be consequences. What do the rules say about differentiating in game punishment (technical foul) from post game punishment?

It is a pattern, it is a problem. If the individual in game act only merits a technical foul and not an ejection, then either the classification is wrong (tripping should be an automatic ejection and one game suspension), or people just need to deal with tripping in game is no different than fouling a player without making a play for the ball (which was not called on Tatum's behalf when the Elon player fouled him with a hug on the breakaway).

I agree Allen needs some level of support and help. The level of angst online (suspend him 5 games, kick him off the team, K is arrogant and there will be no consequences,...too many to list) is way out of control.

The overall worst part of this beyond it being unnecessary and poor judgment? This will follow the team the rest of the season.

I came in to the season expecting Duke to be head and shoulders the best team this year. UCLA, Kentucky, Kansas, Villanova and UNC are all playing at a higher level than Duke is (and maybe Louisvile too).

What should have been an interesting season for other reasons is taking a bit of a turn. Hoping everyone gets healthy (mentally and physically) and this team realizes its potential.

arnie
12-21-2016, 09:44 PM
All this focus on Allen is missing the fact that our team has played at a lower level the last 2 games than we've liked, with the exception of Tatum, Kennard and a few bright spots from others. I'm now watching UK/Lvl and the Duke team that took the court the last 2 games would be pummeled by either of these teams. I know we're still integrating injured players - maybe Tatum not so much although he forced it a bit more in tonight's game - but without a high-functioning Allen, and positive contributions from Bolden (who as been unimpressive and thus has played limited minutes) and Giles when he's up to speed, we're stuck in the back half of the top 10.

Agree with all of his - hoped Bolden would get more than 3 minutes in a game against Elon, but he doesn't look good. Without knowing anything about the injury suffered 2 months ago, hard to know what's limiting him.

Will Giles be a major contributor in January? If not, think we're going to see small lineup and essentially 7-man rotation during ACC play.

unclsam1
12-21-2016, 09:48 PM
What would the ACC use as a guideline to determine a suspension and the length of a suspension? Is there any rule similar to the NBA suspension rule for a certain number of technicals (I don't think the count carries over to the next season)? With none of the three (now) episodes being called as a Flagrant 2, what is the baseline assessment for league discipline for the lowest level and multiples of a T? And over what period of time? 1, 2, or 3 seasons? Have any ACC BB players ever been suspended by the league for multiple technical fouls? Without any guidelines or precedents, how can an equitable penalty be implemented? Prefer a Duke self-imposed penalty rather than league-imposed penalty under media pressure.

Channing
12-21-2016, 09:50 PM
The last two games it looks like we have completely gone away from running any semblance of an offense other than kennard running curls. We have just been trying to beat teams 1 on 1. Where did the smile post game go?

mr. synellinden
12-21-2016, 09:54 PM
For all the consternation, our defense is up to #8 in KenPom. So there's that.

Defense wins championships.

dukelifer
12-21-2016, 09:56 PM
I came in to the season expecting Duke to be head and shoulders the best team this year. UCLA, Kentucky, Kansas, Villanova and UNC are all playing at a higher level than Duke is (and maybe Louisvile too).

What should have been an interesting season for other reasons is taking a bit of a turn. Hoping everyone gets healthy (mentally and physically) and this team realizes its potential.

I think we should never expect a young team to be head a shoulders above anyone. This Duke team has been injured and has only now started practicing fully. Despite the angst- this team has only lost once- in a close game. And Louisville just showed KY that life is not easy when you start playing good defensive teams. All is all, Duke is in the mix. Anything can happen in March. The best thing to say is that Duke has not yet peaked.

6th Man
12-21-2016, 09:57 PM
The last two games it looks like we have completely gone away from running any semblance of an offense other than kennard running curls. We have just been trying to beat teams 1 on 1. Where did the smile post game go?

I feel like the lack of a true PG is really hurting us with running the offense. We get the ball up fine, but nobody is looking like a distributor right now. Lots of guys that need their shots.

dukelifer
12-21-2016, 10:01 PM
Agree with all of his - hoped Bolden would get more than 3 minutes in a game against Elon, but he doesn't look good. Without knowing anything about the injury suffered 2 months ago, hard to know what's limiting him.

Will Giles be a major contributor in January? If not, think we're going to see small lineup and essentially 7-man rotation during ACC play.

Giles will come along but slowly. He is lacking confidence right now- cannot blame him. But that could turn around on a dime. Right now he looks like a kid who has not played in over a year and a half. Right now it looks like we may lose Kennard at the end of the season to the draft and Giles, Bolden and Jackson may be back :)

Troublemaker
12-21-2016, 10:06 PM
For all the consternation, our defense is up to #8 in KenPom. So there's that.

Defense wins championships.

Yep, I predicted in chat that our D-rank would improve. Our offense did struggle, though, this time against a bad defensive team.


What would the ACC use as a guideline to determine a suspension and the length of a suspension? Is there any rule similar to the NBA suspension rule for a certain number of technicals (I don't think the count carries over to the next season)? With none of the three (now) episodes being called as a Flagrant 2, what is the baseline assessment for league discipline for the lowest level and multiples of a T? And over what period of time? 1, 2, or 3 seasons? Have any ACC BB players ever been suspended by the league for multiple technical fouls? Without any guidelines or precedents, how can an equitable penalty be implemented? Prefer a Duke self-imposed penalty rather than league-imposed penalty under media pressure.

IMO, they'll come up with something, unfortunately. The league will anticipate that if they don't suspend Grayson, the media will write stories about the ACC showing favoritism towards Duke. Which is stupid, but it'll be enough for the league to come up with something to suspend him with.

Fish80
12-21-2016, 10:10 PM
It's over.

BD80
12-21-2016, 10:13 PM
It's over.

Well, in a way, it is an issue with Grayson's foot.

Ballboy1998
12-21-2016, 10:19 PM
To actually comment on the game outside of Tripgate #3, I feel like the games between exams and Christmas are always clunkers to one degree or another.

In the first half, I thought we got some good looks from three in the flow of the offense and just weren't hitting. Tatum looked very good on the offensive end in the first half, and it was nice to see Jones drop in a couple buckets as I would really like to see him get out of his shooting funk.

Elon is clearly a well coached team, as one would expect from a coach from the McKillop coaching tree. They came out on fire from three -- partially because of soft close-outs by Duke. Then, when Duke made the correct adjustment to run them off the three point line, they did a good job of attacking off the dribble and drawing some fouls.

When Bolden came in early in the first half he promptly let Dawkins shoot two easy threes right over him, and he was back on the bench soon thereafter. Maybe an example of a freshman failing to absorb the scouting report, but having to cover someone out beyond the arc is really never going to be Bolden's game. He is still working his way back and I expect him to see substantially more minutes when we play teams with traditional back-to-the-basket post players. Neither of the last two games provided him with a natural matchup on the defensive end.

I continue to be extremely impressed with Tatum. He can get tunnel vision on offensive at times, but given his scorer's reputation I am not particularly surprised or bothered with that at this point. I have been really blown away with his defense and especially his defensive rebounding this early in his college career. That is not to say he doesn't still make freshman mistakes on defense, but his game is much more complete than I expected at this early stage (given the time he was out with his injury).

To my eyes, Giles continues to look more comfortable each minute he spends on the floor. He clearly feels the monkey on his back and is forcing it a bit to try and get in the flow, but I'm not too worried. He actually had a couple nice defensive rotations and was trying to attack the glass a bit as well. I'm not sure he will ever get up to firing on all cylinders this year, but if he even comes anywhere close he will be a huge asset to the team.

Now time for a physical and mental break for all the guys and then regroup and attack the ACC season!

Chicago 1995
12-21-2016, 10:20 PM
Interesting comments from Tatum and Kennard about the team being kind of selfish and not everyone having the same level of buy in.

K's got some work to do anyway. Didn't really need the Grayson cr*p on top of it.

Sitting him might not just do some good for Grayson, but for the rest of the team too

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-21-2016, 10:25 PM
Interesting comments from Tatum and Kennard about the team being kind of selfish and not everyone having the same level of buy in.

K's got some work to do anyway. Didn't really need the Grayson cr*p on top of it.

Sitting him might not just do some good for Grayson, but for the rest of the team too

This team has some gelling yet to do, that is clear.

uh_no
12-21-2016, 10:30 PM
Interesting comments from Tatum and Kennard about the team being kind of selfish and not everyone having the same level of buy in.


I was intrigued by that....who wouldn't have the buy in? You'd imagine as they're using it as explanation for poor play it would have to be people seeing time on the court....

Certainly not Amile...coming back for a fifth year
Matt? surely not
Grayson? Tonight's issues aside, i always thought of him as a team guy....but maybe?

Bolden giles and chase don't really see enough court time to really be to causing issues, I think....but maybe that's why? Frank?

I would have argued monday that the team was for some time not being selfish ENOUGH. They passed up a ton of open shots in the first half. Anyway, hope they work it all out.

PSurprise
12-21-2016, 10:32 PM
Did anyone else notice Grayson getting beat repeatedly on the defensive end?whether it was trying to play "catch up" with his man or just being slow to close out or stay with his man, I thought he had a pretty bad game, the tripping incident notwithstanding. He needs to pick it up on defense, as I see the defense is where we're lacking the most currently

dukelifer
12-21-2016, 10:33 PM
To actually comment on the game outside of Tripgate #3, I feel like the games between exams and Christmas are always clunkers to one degree or another.

In the first half, I thought we got some good looks from three in the flow of the offense and just weren't hitting. Tatum looked very good on the offensive end in the first half, and it was nice to see Jones drop in a couple buckets as I would really like to see him get out of his shooting funk.

Elon is clearly a well coached team, as one would expect from a coach from the McKillop coaching tree. They came out on fire from three -- partially because of soft close-outs by Duke. Then, when Duke made the correct adjustment to run them off the three point line, they did a good job of attacking off the dribble and drawing some fouls.

When Bolden came in early in the first half he promptly let Dawkins shoot two easy threes right over him, and he was back on the bench soon thereafter. Maybe an example of a freshman failing to absorb the scouting report, but having to cover someone out beyond the arc is really never going to be Bolden's game. He is still working his way back and I expect him to see substantially more minutes when we play teams with traditional back-to-the-basket post players. Neither of the last two games provided him with a natural matchup on the defensive end.

I continue to be extremely impressed with Tatum. He can get tunnel vision on offensive at times, but given his scorer's reputation I am not particularly surprised or bothered with that at this point. I have been really blown away with his defense and especially his defensive rebounding this early in his college career. That is not to say he doesn't still make freshman mistakes on defense, but his game is much more complete than I expected at this early stage (given the time he was out with his injury).

To my eyes, Giles continues to look more comfortable each minute he spends on the floor. He clearly feels the monkey on his back and is forcing it a bit to try and get in the flow, but I'm not too worried. He actually had a couple nice defensive rotations and was trying to attack the glass a bit as well. I'm not sure he will ever get up to firing on all cylinders this year, but if he even comes anywhere close he will be a huge asset to the team.

Now time for a physical and mental break for all the guys and then regroup and attack the ACC season!

As for post exam clunkers- in 2014, Number 2 Duke beat Elon by 13 and then beat UConn by 10. That team did okay at the end.

Dukehky
12-21-2016, 10:35 PM
Did anyone else notice Grayson getting beat repeatedly on the defensive end?whether it was trying to play "catch up" with his man or just being slow to close out or stay with his man, I thought he had a pretty bad game, the tripping incident notwithstanding. He needs to pick it up on defense, as I see the defense is where we're lacking the most currently

He had 4 fouls. Aside from that, I think that Grayson may be the issue that Luke is talking about right now... Tatum is still a bit of a black hole, but he plays so hard on defense and is probably our best defensive player, including Amile and Matt, and he is grabbing defensive boards at an incredible clip, so as far as I am concerned, he earns the shots.

uh_no
12-21-2016, 10:35 PM
as I see the defense is where we're lacking the most currently

Grayson issues aside, our defense has been trending up, actually, and it's the offense that's been on the way down.

FerryFor50
12-21-2016, 10:44 PM
He had 4 fouls. Aside from that, I think that Grayson may be the issue that Luke is talking about right now... Tatum is still a bit of a black hole, but he plays so hard on defense and is probably our best defensive player, including Amile and Matt, and he is grabbing defensive boards at an incredible clip, so as far as I am concerned, he earns the shots.

I agree. Likely referring to Grayson and his trip, as well as his overall play.

Dukehky
12-21-2016, 10:48 PM
I agree. Likely referring to Grayson and his trip, as well as his overall play.

I'm not sure the trip has anything to do with this really. I think most of it is relating to in the beginning when we were playing kinda well offensively, but Elon was shooting lights out, Grayson appeared to act like, "Okay, time for me to get going" and he hoisted a lot of pretty bad shots. I also think the quotes he made after the last game about the younger guys "getting on our train" probably rubbed some guys the wrong way. This season's successes have been led by Amile and Luke...

34 points seems like a long time ago, even though it was just 11 days. I hope they have a good 3 days off and come back refocused. K has work to do. I would honestly feel better if we had Collins back just for this couple of weeks. No idea why.

Fish80
12-21-2016, 10:49 PM
OMG, it's my fault. I wore the wrong sweatshirt. I got confused and wore one I wear for home games. Threw off the karma. Damn.

gofurman
12-21-2016, 10:54 PM
All this focus on Allen is missing the fact that our team has played at a lower level the last 2 games than we've liked, with the exception of Tatum, Kennard and a few bright spots from others. I'm now watching UK/Lvl and the Duke team that took the court the last 2 games would be pummeled by either of these teams. I know we're still integrating injured players - maybe Tatum not so much although he forced it a bit more in tonight's game - but without a high-functioning Allen, and positive contributions from Bolden (who as been unimpressive and thus has played limited minutes) and Giles when he's up to speed, we're stuck in the back half of the top 10.


Agree. Two games is a v small sample size but everyone else has exams too. And I think it's without debate the last two games the opponents - tsu and Elon - have executed their game more than we have ours. In other words, given the talent disparity we should have won by more in both games... These other teams have exams too. And they are executing much better. The only exception to this would be that the injury issue has kept us back some. Which it has. But even w that a combo of Allen, Kennard, Amile and Tatum should win by 20+ easily vs middle-tier teams. That's 4 killer scorers right there and a lot of upper leadership

uh_no
12-21-2016, 10:55 PM
OMG, it's my fault. I wore the wrong sweatshirt. I got confused and wore one I wear for home games. Threw off the karma. Damn.

negative pitchforks incoming!

BandAlum83
12-21-2016, 11:15 PM
Reported on ESPN on their crawl right now:


"I made a really bad play. I'm sorry to him - Santa Ana. I'm sorry to the officials who had to call that, I'm sorry to my team. It was selfish and taking away from them. I'm not proud of that at all"

I saw the interview. He was very subdued and hard to understand. He had recorders in his face and it was a tight shot attributed to a twitter account.

It looked as though it was in the locker room after the game, but the shot was so tight I can't be sure. I had to see the crawl after the interview to finally know exactly what he said.

He looked devastated.

Maybe that's what coach meant when he said "he got punished"

He also said "we had a long talk afterwards."

I believe in Coach K and I believe in Grayson Allen.

jv001
12-21-2016, 11:19 PM
Did anyone else notice Grayson getting beat repeatedly on the defensive end?whether it was trying to play "catch up" with his man or just being slow to close out or stay with his man, I thought he had a pretty bad game, the tripping incident notwithstanding. He needs to pick it up on defense, as I see the defense is where we're lacking the most currently

Early in the first half, Grayson looked to be either loafing or was slowed by his injured toe. Then after the benching by Coach K, he came back in and seemed to move better. If that's the case, maybe he is the player Tatum and Kennard referred to as being selfish. All I know is Grayson is getting hammered on Facebook and mostly by Uncheat fans. I'm in the camp of those wanting to see Coach K sit Grayson for the VT game. I think it might do Grayson some good. Now he's going home for Christmas with all this on his shoulders, but he's can't blame anyone but himself. This has happened 3 times now and he needs help. The outburst on the bench is really disturbing. GoDuke!

Billy Dat
12-21-2016, 11:20 PM
Interesting comments from Tatum and Kennard about the team being kind of selfish and not everyone having the same level of buy in.o

I often suspect, based on the uniformity of responses, that the players just parrott whatever K just said to them, and based on Grayson crying and saying the trip was selfish, I am guessing that was K's message before the locker room was opened.

uh_no
12-21-2016, 11:21 PM
I often suspect, based on the uniformity of responses, that the players just parrott whatever K just said to them, and based on Grayson crying and saying the trip was selfish, I am guessing that was K's message before the locker room was opened.

great teams pivot off this kind of adversity. Maybe it's exactly what they needed.

Dukehky
12-21-2016, 11:23 PM
Early in the first half, Grayson looked to be either loafing or was slowed by his injured toe. Then after the benching by Coach K, he came back in and seemed to move better. If that's the case, maybe he is the player Tatum and Kennard referred to as being selfish. All I know is Grayson is getting hammered on Facebook and mostly by Uncheat fans. I'm in the camp of those wanting to see Coach K sit Grayson for the VT game. I think it might do Grayson some good. Now he's going home for Christmas with all this on his shoulders, but he's can't blame anyone but himself. This has happened 3 times now and he needs help. The outburst on the bench is really disturbing. GoDuke!

Cheese and freaking crackers, Johnny Manziel isn't on the team guys!!!

Again, he touched someone else's leg with his foot. Get some perspective.

I could not care less about an outburst. That kind of outburst happens all the time, only difference, cameras don't zoom in on other player's like that in the huddle, and if they try, the managers cover it with towels. The fact that that was on television is all on the managers.

CoachJ10
12-21-2016, 11:34 PM
Watching the play again- the kid locked him up by the arm and flung him around. Allen overreacted with sticking his leg out. But this was all part of a play in which the other player initiated the locking of limbs- not some random trip after the play like last year. I have seen guys consistently elbow guys on their moves. Is using your feet somehow worse than using your elbow? I am not hoppy with Allen and his reaction- but some of the comments are making this sound like the worse thing they have ever seen on a basketball court. Suspending for 5 games? Really? The kid did not even fall hard. If I were K, I would definitely not start him next game- but suspending him is not going to do anything to help Grayson. What is the point? Will suspending him make him learn his lesson? Do you think Allen is doing this because he knows he can get away with it or that K is easy on him? Grayson has already been hurt by his actions of last year and this just piles on. Allen is a physical player- this stuff can happen during a basketball play. I am sure K is mad at his reactions and emotional outburst. If the league does suspends him- so be it. K may want to sit Allen so he heals up but that is another issue.

100% agree with this post. The Elon player grabbed Grayson's arm. That it was a cheap play by the Elon player and a bad call by the ref is not debatable.

The cumulative effect of the dirty plays and pushing the edges against Grayson (and other Duke players) has to take its toll. Not every person can have JJ's superhuman ability to internalize that and fuel him. I think we all wish Grayson could internalize the cheap shots...but easier said than done.

Furniture
12-21-2016, 11:42 PM
Cheese and freaking crackers, Johnny Manziel isn't on the team guys!!!

Again, he touched someone else's leg with his foot. Get some perspective.

I could not care less about an outburst. That kind of outburst happens all the time, only difference, cameras don't zoom in on other player's like that in the huddle, and if they try, the managers cover it with towels. The fact that that was on television is all on the managers.

Seriously?

I can't fathom how anyone could see this as 'he just touched someone's else's leg with his foot'. I really wish I could!!!

All this reaction is unfortunate but I think it's natural because people really care for what Duke basketball stands for and it's also disappointment for Grayson himself. Not necessarily anger against him. I am sure that everyone who is posting genuinely wants something better for this young man.

jv001
12-21-2016, 11:48 PM
Cheese and freaking crackers, Johnny Manziel isn't on the team guys!!!

Again, he touched someone else's leg with his foot. Get some perspective.

I could not care less about an outburst. That kind of outburst happens all the time, only difference, cameras don't zoom in on other player's like that in the huddle, and if they try, the managers cover it with towels. The fact that that was on television is all on the managers.

If you don't think Grayson's tripping/kicking other players is intentional, then you're not seeing the same thing I'm seeing. I probably one of Grayson Allen's biggest fans, but I don't close my eyes or bury my head in the sand even if he is one of my favorite players. I don't know if Grayson did this in high school or just began tripping players last season but it needs to stop. If one of uncheat's players did this, would you look at it the same way? And it wasn't just a case of touching someone else's leg. It was either a trip or kick. Either way it was bad sportsmanship. GoDuke!

Dukehky
12-21-2016, 11:58 PM
If you don't think Grayson's tripping/kicking other players is intentional, then you're not seeing the same thing I'm seeing. I probably one of Grayson Allen's biggest fans, but I don't close my eyes or bury my head in the sand even if he is one of my favorite players. I don't know if Grayson did this in high school or just began tripping players last season but it needs to stop. If one of uncheat's players did this, would you look at it the same way? And it wasn't just a case of touching someone else's leg. It was either a trip or kick. Either way it was bad sportsmanship. GoDuke!

I never said it wasn't intentional. And he's not one of my favorite players. I'm not burying my head in the sand, I saw it. I think it was adequately punished, just like it was last year. Deserving of a technical foul. He got one.

Sportsmanship... That's a moving target. We all revere Laettner and Redick, hardly the epitome of sportsmanship. And Grayson appears to legitimately not be able to handle his "villainy" that was unfairly placed upon him before he even arrived on campus.

Chris Paul is a repeat offender with nut shots, and the whole world doesn't go bonkers for suspensions, or calling on Doc Rivers to do it for the league. Dude got a game in college, way worse than any kind of "trip."

I don't want to seem like I'm defending this just because he's a Duke player. Using the analogy of "if this was a UNC player..." is foolish because of course we'd be calling for the hammer. We hate Carolina. But if this was a Creighton player, no one would care even a little bit. I just don't think the action is that big of a deal. Wouldn't care if he cackled maniacally afterward or if he cried because he knew he ruined his season (which appears to be more along the lines of the truth). In the grand scheme of things, and with all of the terrors we've seen go along with college athletics, I just don't see 3 incidents where a player trips someone when they are essentially standing still to be something that concerns me.

jipops
12-21-2016, 11:58 PM
All this focus on Allen is missing the fact that our team has played at a lower level the last 2 games than we've liked, with the exception of Tatum, Kennard and a few bright spots from others. I'm now watching UK/Lvl and the Duke team that took the court the last 2 games would be pummeled by either of these teams. I know we're still integrating injured players - maybe Tatum not so much although he forced it a bit more in tonight's game - but without a high-functioning Allen, and positive contributions from Bolden (who as been unimpressive and thus has played limited minutes) and Giles when he's up to speed, we're stuck in the back half of the top 10.

Yea this just going to keep away from what the focus should be on, the team. And it really is not a very good one right now. I've pretty much seen everyone but the cheats so I'd venture to say we're the 4th best ACC team at best right now. So many issues on offense and defense to get thru.

On offense I think Jayson is both a blessing and a curse. Sure he scored a lot but he took a TON of shots and the ball would just stall. I see why K plays Matt Jones so much. Except for Amile he is the only non ball dominant player in the rotation. Everyone else has their head down looking to score whenever they have the ball. Not having a natural facilitator on the roster hurts this team as most everyone has to have the ball in their hands.

On defense when in transition we're pretty much non existent. It's a guaranteed score when someone starts running the floor against us. In halfcourt we're good and Jayson has done a great job using his length and is reacting well to back door plays. As a team the halfcourt D could be better but it's not bad.

Not being able to start integrating Harry earlier this season may very well prevent him from producing much significant at all. K isn't going to sacrifice games just to get a guy minutes and every game is going to be tough from here on out. I'm discouraged that Bolden got no touches at all. But I think that has a lot to do with the makeup of this team.

I wasn't discouraged after the Tenn St game. That was a good team. Elon, however, should have been a walk over. Tonight totally felt like a loss.

Dukehky
12-22-2016, 12:00 AM
Yea this just going to keep away from what the focus should be on, the team. And it really is not a very good one right now. I've pretty much seen everyone but the cheats so I'd venture to say we're the 4th best ACC team at best right now. So many issues on offense and defense to get thru.

On offense I think Jayson is both a blessing and a curse. Sure he scored a lot but he took a TON of shots and the ball would just stall. I see why K plays Matt Jones so much. Except for Amile he is the only non ball dominant player in the rotation. Everyone else has their head down looking to score whenever they have the ball. Not having a natural facilitator on the roster hurts this team as most everyone has to have the ball in their hands.

On defense when in transition we're pretty much non existent. It's a guaranteed score when someone starts running the floor against us. In halfcourt we're good and Jayson has done a great job using his length and is reacting well to back door plays. As a team the halfcourt D could be better but it's not bad.

Not being able to start integrating Harry earlier this season may very well prevent him from producing much significant at all. K isn't going to sacrifice games just to get a guy minutes and every game is going to be tough from here on out. I'm discouraged that Bolden got no touches at all. But I think that has a lot to do with the makeup of this team.

I wasn't discouraged after the Tenn St game. That was a good team. Elon, however, should have been a walk over. Tonight totally felt like a loss.

We are KenPom #8 on defense and #3 on offense. I agree we don't seem to be playing dynamite basketball. But it does seem like things aren't trending in the right direction. Still early, gotta get it rocking.

GDuke_03
12-22-2016, 12:01 AM
Seriously?

I can't fathom how anyone could see this as 'he just touched someone's else's leg with his foot'. I really wish I could!!!

All this reaction is unfortunate but I think it's natural because people really care for what Duke basketball stands for and it's also disappointment for Grayson himself. Not necessarily anger against him. I am sure that everyone who is posting genuinely wants something better for this young man.

While I definitely think that Grayson intended to do *something*, it's important to be VERY cautious trying to discern intent from slow-mo video. In slow motion EVERY action looks intentional. Our brains simply do not compensate for the slow motion, so we assume the person we're watching took the same time to make the decisions that we take to watch.

mr. synellinden
12-22-2016, 12:13 AM
His and Coach K's comments and actions obliterated any doubt on this. There is nothing to discern.

tbyers11
12-22-2016, 12:24 AM
Yea this just going to keep away from what the focus should be on, the team. And it really is not a very good one right now. I've pretty much seen everyone but the cheats so I'd venture to say we're the 4th best ACC team at best right now. So many issues on offense and defense to get thru.

On offense I think Jayson is both a blessing and a curse. Sure he scored a lot but he took a TON of shots and the ball would just stall. I see why K plays Matt Jones so much. Except for Amile he is the only non ball dominant player in the rotation. Everyone else has their head down looking to score whenever they have the ball. Not having a natural facilitator on the roster hurts this team as most everyone has to have the ball in their hands.

On defense when in transition we're pretty much non existent. It's a guaranteed score when someone starts running the floor against us. In halfcourt we're good and Jayson has done a great job using his length and is reacting well to back door plays. As a team the halfcourt D could be better but it's not bad.

Not being able to start integrating Harry earlier this season may very well prevent him from producing much significant at all. K isn't going to sacrifice games just to get a guy minutes and every game is going to be tough from here on out. I'm discouraged that Bolden got no touches at all. But I think that has a lot to do with the makeup of this team.

I wasn't discouraged after the Tenn St game. That was a good team. Elon, however, should have been a walk over. Tonight totally felt like a loss.

I agree with much of what you said. Integrating Harry is going to be a long process. I'm discouraged by Marques basically getting no meaningful minutes for the second game in a row. Transition D has been bad all year and was bad at times tonight. We had lots of people taking good shots relatively early in the shot clock instead of working a little harder to try and get a great shot. Moving the ball side to side or trying to get it into the post was nearly non-existent all night.

However, I disagree that tonight felt like a loss. I thought we came out of the gate playing well the first 5 minutes. We just missed all of our good looks at 3 and they hit all of theirs. We tightened up the D, Matt had a great stretch and we were up 8 when Grayson's technical happened. For obvious reasons, mostly, IMO, Grayson's reaction, we lost our focus and scored 2 points the last 5 minutes of the half to trail by 1 at the break. In the second half, we played some strong stretches on D and led by at least 10 the last 9 minutes of the game. We pushed the lead to 17 (72-55) with 2:51 left and then finished the game poorly again (another troubling trend) by being outscored 6-0. If we play the last 3 mins even, we win by 17. According to KenPom, Elon is no slouch either. They were #144 prior to the game (TN St was 130). Being it was a neutral court, we were projected to win by 20.

It was by no means a great game. I thought we matched up much better with Elon than TN St and expected an easier win and thought we should have played better, but it didn't feel like a loss to me. I think the team subconsciously thought things might always be easy after UNLV. Combine that with exams, lack of practice, and the hype surrounding the return of Harry and I'm not surprised we haven't looked great. It is a bit of a disturbing trend but there is still a lot of season to go.

BLPOG
12-22-2016, 12:32 AM
I never said it wasn't intentional. And he's not one of my favorite players. I'm not burying my head in the sand, I saw it. I think it was adequately punished, just like it was last year. Deserving of a technical foul. He got one.

Sportsmanship... That's a moving target. We all revere Laettner and Redick, hardly the epitome of sportsmanship. And Grayson appears to legitimately not be able to handle his "villainy" that was unfairly placed upon him before he even arrived on campus.

Chris Paul is a repeat offender with nut shots, and the whole world doesn't go bonkers for suspensions, or calling on Doc Rivers to do it for the league. Dude got a game in college, way worse than any kind of "trip."

I don't want to seem like I'm defending this just because he's a Duke player. Using the analogy of "if this was a UNC player..." is foolish because of course we'd be calling for the hammer. We hate Carolina. But if this was a Creighton player, no one would care even a little bit. I just don't think the action is that big of a deal. Wouldn't care if he cackled maniacally afterward or if he cried because he knew he ruined his season (which appears to be more along the lines of the truth). In the grand scheme of things, and with all of the terrors we've seen go along with college athletics, I just don't see 3 incidents where a player trips someone when they are essentially standing still to be something that concerns me.

But (https://youtu.be/RybNI0KB1bg)...

ICP
12-22-2016, 12:33 AM
The overreaction to Allen's foul is incredibly absurd. It's just a trip, a(cheap) but rather harmless foul, not nearly as violent as many other fouls, which is why it's not even a flagrant 2. Trips happen in soccer all the time and they are at worst a yellow card. I can't believe so many people get their panties in a twist over it at ESPN... The Duke hate is really distorting reality to an embarrassing level.

jipops
12-22-2016, 12:34 AM
We are KenPom #8 on defense and #3 on offense. I agree we don't seem to be playing dynamite basketball. But it does seem like things aren't trending in the right direction. Still early, gotta get it rocking.

Those numbers don't mean all that much at this point in the season. It will be interesting to see where those numbers go once ACC play begins.

WHOneedsSOX
12-22-2016, 12:36 AM
The overreaction to Allen's foul is incredibly absurd. It's just a trip, a(cheap) but rather harmless foul, not nearly as violent as many other fouls, which is why it's not even a flagrant 2. Trips happen in soccer all the time and they are at worst a yellow card. I can't believe so many people get their panties in a twist over it at ESPN... The Duke hate is really distorting reality to an embarrassing level.

Except this isn't soccer where you use your legs to stop someone.

DevilFalcon
12-22-2016, 12:47 AM
The article on the main page says only Jackson scored off of the bench, and none else. I don't know what game they watched, but I saw Harry Giles first point scored in college... Personally I think that 1 free throw is pretty noteworthy.

uh_no
12-22-2016, 01:11 AM
We have to become a group that is all consumed in just Duke, and by saying that, Iím just saying that we have to just buy in. Every guy on our team, inside, they have individual goals, and thatís a great thing to have, but sometimes those individual goals may tend to sneak up and kind of take over what itís really all about, and thatís about winning as a group.

We realized in the first half that we were just really all trying to score. Everybody can score in college, but you really have to be able to defend to really start your offense, and thatís what helped us today.

It sounds to me like they're speaking far more generally than any specific player. I think what I envision is when someone gets the ball on offense, they have an idea of exactly what they want to do then, and that isn't necessarily the best way for the team to score.

Essentially it seems they're saying "we gotta play smarter team offense."....which is pretty much a generic thing to say when a team is playing not as well as you'd like. (Not surprisingly, these guys are coached on how to handle media...)

Perhaps it's blue shades, but i'm skeptical they would be calling out any particular individual in a presser like that....

dukelifer
12-22-2016, 08:02 AM
Yea this just going to keep away from what the focus should be on, the team. And it really is not a very good one right now. I've pretty much seen everyone but the cheats so I'd venture to say we're the 4th best ACC team at best right now. So many issues on offense and defense to get thru.

On offense I think Jayson is both a blessing and a curse. Sure he scored a lot but he took a TON of shots and the ball would just stall. I see why K plays Matt Jones so much. Except for Amile he is the only non ball dominant player in the rotation. Everyone else has their head down looking to score whenever they have the ball. Not having a natural facilitator on the roster hurts this team as most everyone has to have the ball in their hands.

On defense when in transition we're pretty much non existent. It's a guaranteed score when someone starts running the floor against us. In halfcourt we're good and Jayson has done a great job using his length and is reacting well to back door plays. As a team the halfcourt D could be better but it's not bad.

Not being able to start integrating Harry earlier this season may very well prevent him from producing much significant at all. K isn't going to sacrifice games just to get a guy minutes and every game is going to be tough from here on out. I'm discouraged that Bolden got no touches at all. But I think that has a lot to do with the makeup of this team.

I wasn't discouraged after the Tenn St game. That was a good team. Elon, however, should have been a walk over. Tonight totally felt like a loss.

There is something going on but I think it is a combination of events. Bringing in new guys is never easy. Tatum is a talent but he is behind and it shows. He is not very efficient right now. Jackson was playing very well but has been reset with an injury. Bolden is a mystery- he does not seem happy and that could be an issue. Giles wants this to be his one and only year but he is so far behind that he may need to come back just to convince the NBA that he is ready and that is wearing. Grayson is struggling. This is not a happy team right now- lots of expectations and many setbacks. But it can all change quickly. This team can easily get on a late season roll.

Troublemaker
12-22-2016, 08:15 AM
There is something going on but I think it is a combination of events. Bringing in new guys is never easy. Tatum is a talent but he is behind and it shows. He is not very efficient right now.

Coach K mentioned in the postgame that Jayson just doesn't have his legs yet for his jumpshot, so it's a conditioning issue, but that will come. Overall, I thought Jayson played really well and will eventually hit his shots at a higher rate.

Saratoga2
12-22-2016, 08:33 AM
Allen is having a tough year and it is wearing on him. The injuries have set him back and he is not being consistent. He is also seeing Kennard having a great season and now Tatum is coming along. I am sure Allen is disappointed in his play and he knows that he is not likely to meet his own personal goals. Allen may figure it out or it could be one of those down seasons. We have seen it before with certain players who by nature are very emotional. Basketball can be a tough sport. It is easy to lose your confidence.

I didn't watch the game last night due to a social engagement but have read the posts up to this point. Grayson is a very hard nosed kid who plays the game with a reckless abandon that you see in few other kids. It is precisely that quality that helped us win the 2015 national championship. He has had many great games for us and always seemed to play all out for us. I think he came into this year with hopes of being national player of the year and leading the team to yet another championship and also to try to put the tripping incidents from last year behind him. Perhaps his reckless abandon caught up with him this year as he sustained at least two injuries that have hampered his play. You are right to mention that Kennard and now Tatum have moved forward to become high level players in their own right and we also have Amile doing a great job, so Grayson has become one of the excellent players on the team and not the absolute star. Whatever the frustration that led to this current tripping/kicking incident, Grayson needs to face up to letting his emotions and tendencies catch up to him yet again.

What Grayson and coach K agree is a suitable way of dealing with the latest incident should at least give him time away from the game to reflect on his actions and emotional outburst. A mutually agreed approach would be the best for him and for the team. We will need him and he will need the team going forward so I hope for the best outcome. Whatever the future brings, we all know that the media and opponents fans will be unmerciful in his treatment and he will have to steel himself to harsh and continual criticism.

MChambers
12-22-2016, 08:39 AM
Coach K mentioned in the postgame that Jayson just doesn't have his legs yet for his jumpshot, so it's a conditioning issue, but that will come. Overall, I thought Jayson played really well and will eventually hit his shots at a higher rate.

It still seems to me that Tatum chooses shots as though you get more points using a shot with a high degree of difficulty. He's taking shots that may be necessary in the NBA, but aren't necessary in college. And he definitely needs to pass more, especially on the break and when driving.

Don't get me wrong: I love his overall game. His defense and rebounding have been great, and I love him pushing the ball and breaking presses.

Rich
12-22-2016, 08:40 AM
There is something going on but I think it is a combination of events. Bringing in new guys is never easy. Tatum is a talent but he is behind and it shows. He is not very efficient right now. Jackson was playing very well but has been reset with an injury. Bolden is a mystery- he does not seem happy and that could be an issue. Giles wants this to be his one and only year but he is so far behind that he may need to come back just to convince the NBA that he is ready and that is wearing. Grayson is struggling. This is not a happy team right now- lots of expectations and many setbacks. But it can all change quickly. This team can easily get on a late season roll.

Do you have a link where Bolden said he was unhappy? Or are you basing it on 1 second clips of his facial expression on the bench? Or do you assume he's unhappy because he's a talented recruit not getting playing time?

We as a group need to be very careful about starting or perpetuating a rumor about players being unhappy. We've already had one situation, a few years ago, when a player left the program because there was a widespread perception that he was unhappy, largely precipitated by comments on the internet, and he felt he was no longer appreciated or wanted and had no choice but to leave the program. I've said it before on these boards, with the proliferation of internet media, perception becomes reality. Without getting into public policy territory, we saw it in the election with the dissemination of fake news. If enough people believe something, even if completely fabricated and untrue, it becomes the truth. If we start perpetuating a baseless rumor that Bolden is unhappy, well, he may in fact become unhappy because he "thinks" he should be unhappy due to the proliferation of that perception.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-22-2016, 08:44 AM
I didn't watch the game last night due to a social engagement but have read the posts up to this point. Grayson is a very hard nosed kid who plays the game with a reckless abandon that you see in few other kids. It is precisely that quality that helped us win the 2015 national championship. He has had many great games for us and always seemed to play all out for us. I think he came into this year with hopes of being national player of the year and leading the team to yet another championship and also to try to put the tripping incidents from last year behind him. Perhaps his reckless abandon caught up with him this year as he sustained at least two injuries that have hampered his play. You are right to mention that Kennard and now Tatum have moved forward to become high level players in their own right and we also have Amile doing a great job, so Grayson has become one of the excellent players on the team and not the absolute star. Whatever the frustration that led to this current tripping/kicking incident, Grayson needs to face up to letting his emotions and tendencies catch up to him yet again.

What Grayson and coach K agree is a suitable way of dealing with the latest incident should at least give him time away from the game to reflect on his actions and emotional outburst. A mutually agreed approach would be the best for him and for the team. We will need him and he will need the team going forward so I hope for the best outcome. Whatever the future brings, we all know that the media and opponents fans will be unmerciful in his treatment and he will have to steel himself to harsh and continual criticism.

Very well stated. Thanks for the perspective.

Steven43
12-22-2016, 08:58 AM
Jay Williams calling for a 5 game suspension when the kid who punched a fan wasn't suspended that long is absurd.
Typical comment from Jay Williams. Not the least bit surprised. I wish certain Duke fans would stop reflexively defending this guy. This is who he is.

NYBri
12-22-2016, 09:11 AM
As a Duke fan, the game was disorienting. The Grayson play is something we don't see often from a Duke player, and we certainly don't see the reaction very often.

It led to trailing at the half to a team we should have cruised past.

Also watching the dynamic of this team change from Grayson's team to Jayson's is awkward.

The win was unsatisfying and left a strang taste.

And now we have 10 days with this disoriented feeling.

Odd and completely unexpected place to be at this point of the season.

Weird.

Rich
12-22-2016, 09:25 AM
As a Duke fan, the game was disorienting. The Grayson play is something we don't see often from a Duke player, and we certainly don't see the reaction very often.

It led to trailing at the half to a team we should have cruised past.

Also watching the dynamic of this team change from Grayson's team to Jayson's is awkward.

The win was unsatisfying and left a strang taste.

And now we have 10 days with this disoriented feeling.

Odd and completely unexpected place to be at this point of the season.

Weird.

Good post. My gut tells me this will either bring the team together with an us against the world attitude and they will begin to perform at a (high) level we have not yet seen or be a huge distraction and the team will splinter and perform at a (low) level we would not have expected when the season began. I think we will all look back at the Elon game as a defining moment one way or another.

Chicago 1995
12-22-2016, 09:31 AM
Typical comment from Jay Williams. Not the least bit surprised. I wish certain Duke fans would stop reflexively defending this guy. This is who he is.

Jay's doing his job. Jay has his own opinions which he's more than willing to discuss and defend. That's what I think we'd all want from a Duke grad rather than the blind agreement with a monolith like you see from our neighbors eight mikes down the road.

uh_no
12-22-2016, 09:36 AM
Typical comment from Jay Williams. Not the least bit surprised. I wish certain Duke fans would stop reflexively defending this guy. This is who he is.

That was my initial reaction as well, but I've thought a bit....of all people, he should knows well what happens when you don't follow rules. Perhaps his comments are coming from an angle of "I thought I could get away with doing something, and it ended my career....I don't want grayson to end up in the same boat"

Now obviously tripping isn't going to end grayson's career, but it requires a major behavior change.


Now likely that's a stretch and overly generous, but I like to think the best of people in most situations.

DUKIE V(A)
12-22-2016, 09:51 AM
It sounds to me like they're speaking far more generally than any specific player. I think what I envision is when someone gets the ball on offense, they have an idea of exactly what they want to do then, and that isn't necessarily the best way for the team to score.

Essentially it seems they're saying "we gotta play smarter team offense."...which is pretty much a generic thing to say when a team is playing not as well as you'd like. (Not surprisingly, these guys are coached on how to handle media...)

Perhaps it's blue shades, but i'm skeptical they would be calling out any particular individual in a presser like that...

Agree with your take here.

A few thoughts:

1. Amile and Matt consistently sacrifice personal glory for team success. We need more of this.
2. Giles seems to be doing all the right things. Setting screens, not forcing things. Seems like he is trying to blend in rather than forcing things. Promising.
3. Would love to see the team feed the post more often rather than settling for shots we can get at any point in the shot clock.
4. The indefinite suspension is right. Grayson deserves our support as he works through his issues. He has made some mistakes, but I wholeheartedly support him. I hope he gets help and look forward to his return to the court when he's ready.
5. Can't wait for The VA Tech game. Go Duke!

Troublemaker
12-22-2016, 09:56 AM
Good post. My gut tells me this will either bring the team together with an us against the world attitude and they will begin to perform at a (high) level we have not yet seen or be a huge distraction and the team will splinter and perform at a (low) level we would not have expected when the season began. I think we will all look back at the Elon game as a defining moment one way or another.

I thought our level was really high just 3 games ago. Also, while I agree this could be a defining moment in the season, I think there's a 99% chance the good option (coming together, playing well) will occur and only a 1% chance the bad (splintering, playing poorly) will occur. That's because of the quality of people, players and coaches, that are in our program.


That was my initial reaction as well, but I've thought a bit...of all people, he should knows well what happens when you don't follow rules. Perhaps his comments are coming from an angle of "I thought I could get away with doing something, and it ended my career...I don't want grayson to end up in the same boat"

Now obviously tripping isn't going to end grayson's career, but it requires a major behavior change.


Now likely that's a stretch and overly generous, but I like to think the best of people in most situations.

Yeah, I think that's a stretch, and I would hope JWill would not equate the two. I would a thousand times over rather see Grayson spending X-mas break sneaking into Radio City and tripping every Rockette down the line than see him spend 10 seconds riding a motorcycle unlicensed with no helmet.

UrinalCake
12-22-2016, 10:42 AM
It looked to me like Grayson got beat by his man and wanted to slow him down to avoid an easy dunk or layup. They locked arms - I couldn't tell who initiated it - and the foul was called but Grayson was still frustrated and threw his leg up in frustration or maybe as an instinctual way to try to continue to stop the player from driving. Obviously not a basketball play at all. I don't think he was actually trying to trip or kick the guy, but throwing your leg up as a split-second reaction is something he has to learn to control. Even putting this incident aside, Grayson always plays with a ton of passion and aggressiveness which is what makes him such a great player, but he often goes too far and his body language and reactions on the court are over the top. I think the suspension will be a good thing to give him some time off and hopefully he can come back more focused and under control.

As to the game, I thought Jayson played great, he was involved on both ends of the court and is starting to look comfortable. He does take some bad shots early in the shot clock when he would be better served moving the ball around and having the team try to create a better shot, but that's something he'll have to learn. In high school he could pretty much generate a shot for himself whenever he wanted. At this level he has to play within the team concept to generate the best shot for the team and keep everyone involved. But still, I like what I see from him. He guarded the point guard for most of the game and the way we switched up top meant he was always at the head of the defense, much like last year when we played Brandon at the top of the 1-3-1 zone. He showed a good ability to stay in front of the quicker guards so I imagine we'll see more of this moving forward.

Also nice to see Matt knock down a couple shots. He was active defensively as always. Luke and Amile have been our rocks. If you take away the stretch from the Grayson trip through the end of the half, when we pretty much imploded and Elon made a run, I think we outscored them pretty comfortably. We had better energy than in the previous game, it's just that Elon was hitting a ton of threes. But right now I feel like we have a collection of really talented players, but we don't yet have a TEAM. Hopefully the next 10 days of practice will help.

SkyBrickey
12-22-2016, 10:45 AM
Tatum is bringing a lot to the floor with his defense and rebounding.

But he is a high-volume shooter and our ball movement is not nearly as good right now with him dominating the ball. We are settling for good shots and not great shots - and missing too many of these "good" shots. This is especially obvious when we isolate Tatum on the elbow, he decides to shoot a 16 foot jumper and there is no one to rebound the miss.

I'm confident the coaches will get this worked out with more sets and more ball sharing that result in great shots. And as Tatum gets back in top shape, he will make more of these jumpers and finish more drives. The offense has the potential to be absolutely devastating as Tatum, Allen, Kennard and Jefferson work to get easy shots.

Glad to see Giles back although it's unclear to me where he is physically - really hasn't shown anything yet. Scratching my head at Bolden...

Neals384
12-22-2016, 11:04 AM
Coach K mentioned in the postgame that Jayson just doesn't have his legs yet for his jumpshot, so it's a conditioning issue, but that will come. Overall, I thought Jayson played really well and will eventually hit his shots at a higher rate.

That's a very strange comment from a coach who played Jason 37 minutes.

COYS
12-22-2016, 11:08 AM
Grayson's tripping incident, childish reaction, and subsequent suspension aside, I'm actually not really all that concerned after these two sluggish games.

First, the defense has been just shy of great. Of all the one and done freshmen we've had at Duke over the past six seasons, it seems to me that Jayson is perhaps the best defender of the bunch (or at least second best to Justise). I know that's not a particularly high bar as none of Kyrie, Jabari, Jah, etc were particularly great on that end, but Jayson has actually been pretty good. He's not perfect yet, by any means, but for every time he rotates too slowly from the weakside, he also rotates fast enough to block or alter a shot. He's surprisingly quick, laterally, for a guy his size. And his rebounding has been fantastic. In fact, this is Duke's best defensive rebounding team in the KenPom era so far. Final score totals are often so misleading, anyway. Give Duke two more made threes and Elon one fewer and the game looks completely different even though nothing of substance really changed.

As far as team D is concerned, we still struggle a bit with transition defense and have the occasional complete breakdown in the half-court, but if you asked me before the season if I would prefer the team to be playing mediocre defense with amazing offense or good defense and mediocre offense at this point in the season, I EASILY would have picked the more defensive team. I'm not too worried about our offense getting back on track. We'll get everyone assimilated. I'm very encouraged that our defense has gotten BETTER rather than worse as Jayson has started playing more minutes. These last two games are games our teams from last season or 2013-2014 could very well have lost. We still have room to grow on defense, but it is much more of an asset (so far) than it has been in many recent seasons.

As far as our offense is concerned, I think some of the guys are allowing a missed three to affect their overall performance. We had a lot of clean looks from three over the past two games that haven't gone down and we haven't gotten the ball to Amile in the post quite as much. We've allowed misses on those open looks to rattle us a bit (or at least, I definitely feel as if Grayson has been rattled by his misses), leading to some forced shots. And Matt, who is a proven shooter, has been in a prolonged slump from deep. This is in addition to (or perhaps because of) the rotations changing as we get Jayson, Harry, and Marques more integrated. In the long run, getting those open looks is going to be a good thing. And the team will settle into new rhythms on offense. I'm willing to take some growing pains on the offensive end to integrate all of our weapons . . . especially if we continue to play solidly on the defensive end. And remember, we're not very far removed from an amazing game on the offensive end against a very solid Florida defense. We'll get it going, again. The 2015 team spent the first part of the year near the top of the charts on offense. The offense came down just a bit (it was still good, just not quite as devastating as it was earlier in the season), but the defense went from mediocre to elite. I'll take that trade this year, too, if need be. However, with the sheer number of weapons we have, I wouldn't be surprised if we're able to have both a juggernaut on offense and defense.

Newton_14
12-22-2016, 11:32 AM
I am going to focus on the game here, the state of the team and where I feel they are at. My thoughts on the Grayson incident are in the suspension thread and I see no reason to repeat/rehash them here.

In my years watching, I have never seen a Duke Team lose their mojo after the exam break, as badly as this team lost theirs. We were firing on all cylinders in the UNLV road game, encountered the exam break, and then looked unrecognizable in the first two games after the exam break. I was so looking forward to attending both games this week and it ended up being a terrible experience across the board. I don't think the "working in new players" excuse flies either. Remember the Amile Jefferson Double Double machine, who was dominating in the post for like 5 or 6 games in a row? Did his teammates (and for that matter his coaching staff) forget what he looks like or what number he wears? We made little to no effort to get the ball to Amile down on the block or at the high post in a triple threat position in either game. Wanna talk about being angry at something? I was livid and screaming my head off both games because of that one issue alone. It's like the guards/wings decided there wasn't a need to feed the beast because they alone would just score all the points. While I am on this subject, why bother sending Giles into the game if we aren't even going to get him the ball in the post and let him make a scoring move? It's criminal how little we tried to get those two the ball in scoring position in the two games. The offensive flow, motion, great team passing all went totally out the window in these two games. It was like both games were summer league games where every player was just looking to get his own shot and score as many points as possible. Everything was one on one play. The only assists beyond Grayson's great pass to Amile last night on a back door cut for the layup and And-1, were one single pass to a player who shot and made a 3 registering the assist for the passer. I saw very little or none at all, plays where 3 or 4 passes led to setting up a player for an assisted bucket. Didn't matter which set of kids were in there either.

In both games, Bolden started the game ahead of Chase in the rotation, and ended the game nailed to the bench with Chase in front of him in the rotation. Bolden goes in early, doesn't play to a level that pleases K, comes back out and never goes back in again. Last night his sin was giving up two 3-Pointers in a row to the guy he was defending. Frank Jackson also had two subpar games and sat a lot in game 1, and would have sat more in game 2, had the Grayson incident not happened.

So we were back to basically a 6 or 6.5 player rotation against two opponents we should have blown out. I know Tennessee St is actually a really good team relatively speaking, who has been playing Power 5 teams very competitively, but this Duke team should have beat them by 25 or more. Same for Elon.

Our team defense is not as good as pre-exam break version either. So there is much work to do to get this team back to the level of a Top 5 team, and the issue with Grayson is only going to serve to make that more difficult. At half-time last night I was able to read Oly's post in the "in-Game" thread and I agreed with him 100%. The team we saw play this week is not a Top 25 level team, and has lost their mojo in a big way. There are no more non-conference cupcake games, but hey, maybe that is a good thing.

I am going to be watching with bated breath when this team takes the floor for the VaTech game. Will we see a team closer to the UNLV version or closer to the Tenn St/Elon version?

COYS
12-22-2016, 12:00 PM
Our team defense is not as good as pre-exam break version either. So there is much work to do to get this team back to the level of a Top 5 team, and the issue with Grayson is only going to serve to make that more difficult. At half-time last night I was able to read Oly's post in the "in-Game" thread and I agreed with him 100%. The team we saw play this week is not a Top 25 level team, and has lost their mojo in a big way.

This is just not true. Our defense has actually been really good the past three games. I think there are a couple things to remember. UNLV is actually the worst team we've played over the past three games. Yes, we beat the snot out of them, but of the teams we played these past few weeks, that is the team that we "should" have beaten the worst.

The relatively close margin of victory against both TSU and Elon is due to under-performing on offense, not defense. We allowed 55 points in 66 possessions against TSU . . . good for 0.83 points per possession. We allowed 0.88 points per possession against a much better offensive team in Elon. Those are very good (though not quite elite) numbers. And yet we all see a lot of room for improvement on the defensive end even as we're playing really good D. To me, the defense has been a bright spot most of the season, so far. I hope it continues because if we improve from here, we can turn into an elite defensive team.

Are people really worried about the offense, long term? I'm definitely not ready to worry yet (though Grayson's inconsistent play and suspension complicate things, a little). Grayson and Matt are proven scorers who have been in slumps. Jayson is a freshman working his way back from injury. More threes will fall. The chemistry on the court will improve. We've scored well against strong defenses, already (Florida). In the meantime, isn't it nice that we have been able to rely on strong play on the defensive end? These past two games have been tighter than we all wanted, yes, but I think that is causing us to overlook the ways in which we've actually been really solid on D.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-22-2016, 12:23 PM
Are people really worried about the offense, long term? I'm definitely not ready to worry yet (though Grayson's inconsistent play and suspension complicate things, a little). Grayson and Matt are proven scorers who have been in slumps. Jayson is a freshman working his way back from injury. More threes will fall. The chemistry on the court will improve. We've scored well against strong defenses, already (Florida). In the meantime, isn't it nice that we have been able to rely on strong play on the defensive end? These past two games have been tighter than we all wanted, yes, but I think that is causing us to overlook the ways in which we've actually been really solid on D.

We have a boatload of offensive weapons, and will likely get back on track. What I saw as concerning the last two games was a lack of movement without the ball, leading (naturally) to poor ball movement around the perimeter. We have such a variety of weapons, to distill our offense down to a "drive and dish" seems insufficient.

I chalk it up to exam rust and a learning curve with the new guys. Hope to see dramatic improvement come early January, regardless of who is on the floor.

NYBri
12-22-2016, 12:26 PM
We are watching the transition from Grayson's team to Jayson's team in terms of the person who the offense goes through. "The Incident" is going to speed that transition up and I wonder how the team will respond when a more subdued Grayson returns.

MChambers
12-22-2016, 12:32 PM
Grayson's tripping incident, childish reaction, and subsequent suspension aside, I'm actually not really all that concerned after these two sluggish games.

First, the defense has been just shy of great. Of all the one and done freshmen we've had at Duke over the past six seasons, it seems to me that Jayson is perhaps the best defender of the bunch (or at least second best to Justise). I know that's not a particularly high bar as none of Kyrie, Jabari, Jah, etc were particularly great on that end, but Jayson has actually been pretty good. He's not perfect yet, by any means, but for every time he rotates too slowly from the weakside, he also rotates fast enough to block or alter a shot. He's surprisingly quick, laterally, for a guy his size. And his rebounding has been fantastic. In fact, this is Duke's best defensive rebounding team in the KenPom era so far. Final score totals are often so misleading, anyway. Give Duke two more made threes and Elon one fewer and the game looks completely different even though nothing of substance really changed.

As far as team D is concerned, we still struggle a bit with transition defense and have the occasional complete breakdown in the half-court, but if you asked me before the season if I would prefer the team to be playing mediocre defense with amazing offense or good defense and mediocre offense at this point in the season, I EASILY would have picked the more defensive team. I'm not too worried about our offense getting back on track. We'll get everyone assimilated. I'm very encouraged that our defense has gotten BETTER rather than worse as Jayson has started playing more minutes. These last two games are games our teams from last season or 2013-2014 could very well have lost. We still have room to grow on defense, but it is much more of an asset (so far) than it has been in many recent seasons.

As far as our offense is concerned, I think some of the guys are allowing a missed three to affect their overall performance. We had a lot of clean looks from three over the past two games that haven't gone down and we haven't gotten the ball to Amile in the post quite as much. We've allowed misses on those open looks to rattle us a bit (or at least, I definitely feel as if Grayson has been rattled by his misses), leading to some forced shots. And Matt, who is a proven shooter, has been in a prolonged slump from deep. This is in addition to (or perhaps because of) the rotations changing as we get Jayson, Harry, and Marques more integrated. In the long run, getting those open looks is going to be a good thing. And the team will settle into new rhythms on offense. I'm willing to take some growing pains on the offensive end to integrate all of our weapons . . . especially if we continue to play solidly on the defensive end. And remember, we're not very far removed from an amazing game on the offensive end against a very solid Florida defense. We'll get it going, again. The 2015 team spent the first part of the year near the top of the charts on offense. The offense came down just a bit (it was still good, just not quite as devastating as it was earlier in the season), but the defense went from mediocre to elite. I'll take that trade this year, too, if need be. However, with the sheer number of weapons we have, I wouldn't be surprised if we're able to have both a juggernaut on offense and defense.

Had to spork you for this analysis! I'm much less worried about the defense than I was before the season.

Billy Dat
12-22-2016, 01:40 PM
We are watching the transition from Grayson's team to Jayson's team in terms of the person who the offense goes through. "The Incident" is going to speed that transition up and I wonder how the team will respond when a more subdued Grayson returns.

I'd argue that the team is currently Luke's team on offense, but I agree with your enthusiasm about Tatum. The dude is ready to EXPLODE! The way he goes from triple threat and then rips-through as he starts his drive and basically gets to the hoop in 1-2 huge strides is unguardable. Newton_14 was asking for more post touches for Amile (and I agree), but we also need Tatum in that post where he is so effective. We need Tatum everywhere. As soon as he starts clicking with Luke in terms of playing off each other, we will be that much tougher to guard.

And, while we had some glaring defensive breakdowns yesterday on 1-2 possessions, I am amazed that our KenPom defensive numbers have continued to climb. Question for the quants, is that because we are still in relatively small sample size territory (I guess I should check the 'dork poll' thread).

I don't expect us to get back to the sublime offensive flow we had earlier until these new guys get integrated, but Tatum is THE REAL DEAL and his most important stat last night was this one...37 minutes...the most on the team...giddy up!!!!

Channing
12-22-2016, 03:05 PM
Luke is so great at those curl plays, I would love to see him curl free throw line, take a jab step, draw the defender, and lob to Jefferson or Giles. That would be a great way to get those guys involved and should open things for Luke by keeping the help defense honest.

jv001
12-22-2016, 03:46 PM
We have a boatload of offensive weapons, and will likely get back on track. What I saw as concerning the last two games was a lack of movement without the ball, leading (naturally) to poor ball movement around the perimeter. We have such a variety of weapons, to distill our offense down to a "drive and dish" seems insufficient.

I chalk it up to exam rust and a learning curve with the new guys. Hope to see dramatic improvement come early January, regardless of who is on the floor.

I agree with Mtn.Devil regarding our lack of movement without the ball. We have too many weapons on offense to just use the drive and dish every trip down the court. Yes and like Newt said, we should get the ball to Amile down low. I love the way he uses the backboard and he's a force down low. Maybe Bolden will get some of those jump hook shots to go and I'm still waiting to see what Harry can do in the low post. Don't give up on this team just yet. We have the players and we have the coaches to make it work. GoDuke!

Indoor66
12-22-2016, 04:22 PM
I agree with Mtn.Devil regarding our lack of movement without the ball. We have too many weapons on offense to just use the drive and dish every trip down the court. Yes and like Newt said, we should get the ball to Amile down low. I love the way he uses the backboard and he's a force down low. Maybe Bolden will get some of those jump hook shots to go and I'm still waiting to see what Harry can do in the low post. Don't give up on this team just yet. We have the players and we have the coaches to make it work. GoDuke!

We have less movement and quick passing when Tatum is in the game.

jv001
12-22-2016, 05:09 PM
We have less movement and quick passing when Tatum is in the game.

I agree but it looks like Coach K has given Jayson the green light to go one on one and either shoot or pass to an open teammate. I guess it's part of the drive and dish offense. I would like to see more low post passes and pick and roll. We have the players that can do many things on offense and I think that's where we need the most work. GoDuke!

Kedsy
12-22-2016, 05:11 PM
Don't give up on this team just yet.

Really? Are people really giving up on this year's team? I sure hope not.


We have less movement and quick passing when Tatum is in the game.

I agree with this. He seems to have very much a score-first mentality.

Though I noticed he did pass the ball a few times last night (and the box score says 3 assists), so maybe he's becoming more of a complete player.

jv001
12-22-2016, 05:14 PM
Really? Are people really giving up on this year's team? I sure hope not.

I agree with this. He seems to have very much a score-first mentality.

Though I noticed he did pass the ball a few times last night (and the box score says 3 assists), so maybe he's becoming more of a complete player.

Well the mood around here was really bad last night and early this morning. Most of us have not. GoDuke!

Steven43
12-22-2016, 10:45 PM
I believe in Coach K and I believe in Grayson Allen.
Could not agree more. I am proud that Grayson attends Duke. He's a very good student and a great basketball player. I don't know him personally, but from what I've heard he seems to be a young man one would cherish as a friend or a son.

Yes, it's disappointing to see him involve himself in another high-profile negative incident, but I honestly don't think this was all that bad. No different really than a shove or an elbow or a hip check or any other type of obvious foul that occurs in every single college basketball game.

This thing with Grayson sometimes using his legs (rather than his arms or other body parts) to foul reminds me a bit of Draymond Green's propensity for allowing his flailing legs to strike an opponent. Some players just develop unusual ways of fouling, but it does not mean they are causing more harm than they would by fouling in the more typical ways.

I'm with Grayson 100%; no wavering on my part. He's going to figure this out and it will end up being the difference in this team having a great season rather than merely good.

jordanmills22
12-23-2016, 04:17 PM
I am visiting my in-laws for Christmas this year and had the opportunity to attend the Duke vs. Elon game in person. It was my first Duke game and I loved seeing the team and Coach K up close. I wasn't very impressed with the overall performance. Taytum appeared to only be focused on his shot. There was many times he should have kicked out to an open shooter or made a lob to Jefferson, Giles, or Jeter. I understand being aggressive but he was disrupting the flow of the offense quite a bit. Defensively the team played well except when defending the three ball. This was especially the case with our big guys trying to step out and defend. Bolden sat most of the game because he was a liability in this department. Giles looked tentative and unsure of himself but this is to be expected after such a long lay off from playing. I think the winter break will be a good chance for him to work on conditioning and playing 5 on 5. I hope Allen gets whatever help that he needs. Can't wait to see another game!

Ggallagher
12-23-2016, 08:09 PM
I feel like I need to say something in defense of Tatum's defensive play. There have been several comments up-thread which mentioned his offensive focus. I managed to get courtside tickets for the Elon game (Merry Christmas, me!) - which was a really neat experience - well other than the already discussed negatives about the game.

Our seats were honest to goodness courtside - I could almost stretch my leg out and get my foot on the court - so I got to see the game from a very new perspective. Watching Tatum play defense from just seven or eight feet away was pretty startling. There were numerous times when I noticed him flashing a hand or foot into a position that disrupted the Elon player's intentions. And he did that without compromising his defensive position and giving away a lane to the basket which actually did happen relatively often with some of our other defenders.

So while I may have been a little overwhelmed by seeing play from that close, I felt like there were some very positive things that Jayson did which were so fast you might not even pick them up if watching the game on TV.

And I'd also have to say that being able to watch the team play defense from such a close position, I couldn't help noticing how much Amile, Matt, Frank, Jayson, and maybe just a little less Luke were all communicating with each other on defense.

devildeac
12-23-2016, 08:15 PM
I feel like I need to say something in defense of Tatum's defensive play. There have been several comments up-thread which mentioned his offensive focus. I managed to get courtside tickets for the Elon game (Merry Christmas, me!) - which was a really neat experience - well other than the already discussed negatives about the game.

Our seats were honest to goodness courtside - I could almost stretch my leg out and get my foot on the court - so I got to see the game from a very new perspective. Watching Tatum play defense from just seven or eight feet away was pretty startling. There were numerous times when I noticed him flashing a hand or foot into a position that disrupted the Elon player's intentions. And he did that without compromising his defensive position and giving away a lane to the basket which actually did happen relatively often with some of our other defenders.

So while I may have been a little overwhelmed by seeing play from that close, I felt like there were some very positive things that Jayson did which were so fast you might not even pick them up if watching the game on TV.

And I'd also have to say that being able to watch the team play defense from such a close position, I couldn't help noticing how much Amile, Matt, Frank, Jayson, and maybe just a little less Luke were all communicating with each other on defense.

I'm so very glad you didn't try that :rolleyes: .

lotusland
12-23-2016, 08:22 PM
I'm so very glad you didn't try that :rolleyes: .

Might have saved Grayson the humiliation and technical foul. We can better afford to lose ggallagher indefinitely than GA.

Ggallagher
12-23-2016, 08:33 PM
Might have saved Grayson the humiliation and technical foul. We can better afford to lose ggallagher indefinitely than GA.

Yeah, guess I missed my chance there - too bad :(

But since you mentioned it - my seat was at the other end of the court. We actually could not see the trip at all, nor was it clear what had happened from the view we had of the non-slow motion replay that I only got a quick glimpse of. So we watched the rest of the game oblivious to the cascading controversy. I knew Grayson must have screwed up pretty badly with the time he was spending on the bench - but I had no idea.

One of those ignorance is bliss things.....