MBB: Duke vs Elon (12/21, 6 pm, ESPN2) Pre Game and In Game Thread

[Bob Green]

Discuss the game here.

[Ichabod Drain]

Thank goodness we have another game already.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Thank goodness we have another game already.

Because of DBR, the media attention to Grayson's tripping incident, or the crappy performance against TSU? Or all of the above?

[Olympic Fan]

Elon is 7-4, but hasn't beaten anybody significant. Best game was a three-point loss to Georgetown ... or a 2 OT win over Northern Illinois.

Losses to Charlotte, Radford, UC Asheville and G'town.

Coach Matt Matheny (a Bob McKillop disciple that I think is pretty good) has four starters back off a 16-16 team.

The best player is probably senior point guard Luke Eddy. 6-4 Steven Santa Ana (Remember the Alamo!) is their most explosive scorer. Not a lot of size -- they have a 6-11 Lithuanian who plays about 12 minutes a game and several 6-8 guys who get the bulk of the time in the post.

They are pretty average when it comes to most team stats -- the one exception is that they don't get to the foul line (301st nationally) and when they do get there, they don't shoot well (294th nationally).

Should be a fairly easy game (although after Monday night's grinder, how confident can you be?). Elon is actually rated pretty close to where Tennessee State was before the Duke game, but they are not as experienced, not as athletic and not as physically strong. The crowd is Greensboro will probably be no worse than 60-40 pro Duke (probably more like 70-30).

For me, I'll be most interested to see if Harry Giles gets a chance to show anything ... Giles and Bolden. And maybe DeLaurier (did anybody notice that he didn't warm up Monday night or even take off his sweats?)

[Ichabod Drain]

Because of DBR, the media attention to Grayson's tripping incident, or the crappy performance against TSU? Or all of the above?

I was mainly thinking the crappy performance but yea...

[Troublemaker]

Should be a fairly easy game (although after Monday night's grinder, how confident can you be?).

Very. Because we struggled Monday night. Kenpom spread is 19, Vegas spread is 24 (http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-basketball/odds/las-vegas/). I expect Duke to cover both.

Incidentally, Elon's PG Luke Eddy missed their last game with a knee injury and is day-to-day.

[olegreg]

My prediction is matt jones gets 36 mins goes 1-7. While frank barely gets 10.

[moonpie23]

Should be a fairly easy game

eh.................let's hope...

[olegreg]

He's not better than frank, I mean the guy turns back as soon the ball is inbounded to bring ball all the way up the court. His d is not much better frank mason created huge gap on a basic stop and pop for a game winner

[OldPhiKap]

Interesting that you only have ten posts on DBR. Hmmm..

[sagegrouse]

He's not better than frank, I mean the guy turns back as soon the ball is inbounded to bring ball all the way up the court. His d is not much better frank mason created huge gap on a basic stop and pop for a game winner

I don't mean to be unkind, but I would like for you to leave DBR until you come back with posts, in the case that they are counter-intuitive or likely to provoke controversy in our community, that are more descriptive and reasoned out than the terse lower case stuff you are posting

[Old Gold]

But you are being unkind, Sage. I, for one, welcome divergent views.

Matt is a much better player than Frank is right now. Look very closely at the Tennessee St game. Frank made one mistake after another. Turnovers. Not initiating the offense quickly enough. Getting beat on defense. In fact, he was the worst performer on the team.

No worry. Frank will develop. He oozes talent. He just needs to learn. Stay focused. Stay humble. Get better. By all accounts, he is doing exactly that.

By the end of the year, I have no doubt that he will be challenging Matt for a starting role. That will be great for the team, great for Frank.

[Rich]

All right I won't post anymore sense you guys are little sensitive, I didn't say anything untrue. Frank jackson is better than matt jones. Matt jones has never been mentioned for 1st round draft pick. Frank has as freshmen. For example

Based on this post I'm going with Eastern European. At least that's the accent that came to me while reading it.

Oh, and I'm having trouble getting the idea of a macho, hairy Lamas llama OPK out of my head.

[OldPhiKap]

Oh, and I'm having trouble getting the idea of a macho, hairy Lamas llama OPK out of my head.

You probably saw it at a Wednesday kegs. You know, back when you could walk on the quad grass and all.

6969

(Me playing guitar on the bench, 1986 Chanticleer)

[olegreg]

Sorry, I didn't read it first. Just A small town redneck.

[kshepinthehouse]

Any guesses as to how much a ticket in the parking lot will be?

[Rich]

You probably saw it at a Wednesday kegs. You know, back when you could walk on the quad grass and all.

(Me playing guitar on the bench, 1986 Chanticleer)

Wannamaker as a Frosh, then 3 years in House CC. I didn't get over to East much. :rolleyes:

[OldPhiKap]

Wannamaker as a Frosh, then 3 years in House CC. I didn't get over to East much. :rolleyes:

We were a moveable feast. Will travel for pretzels.

[sagegrouse]

He's not better than frank, I mean the guy turns back as soon the ball is inbounded to bring ball all the way up the court. His d is not much better frank mason created huge gap on a basic stop and pop for a game winner

Sorry for my earlier post. Of course, you are welcome here. But short, somewhat cryptic posts make some of us think of trolls and such. You might get a better response with a bit more explanation.

Moreover, there's a division in the house over Matt Jones or Matt vs. Frank, so your views are well within the mainstream of opinion here.

[BandAlum83]

Wannamaker as a Frosh, then 3 years in House CC. I didn't get over to East much. :rolleyes:

It seems we have a disproportionate House CC representation in the DBR community.

What's up with that?

[coot]

The best news is that we have the best coach. We also have extreme talent. Now, chemistry/rotation are the priorities. This makes the Elon game very important for assessment and for how the next several practices and 3 or 4 games will need to go. Coach K is the master.

It's pretty well established right now that the following will be how this all gets started:

STARTERS
G. Allen
L. Kennard
M. Jones
J. Tatum
A. Jefferson

FIRST OFF BENCH
F. Jackson for the guards


TOP PRIORITY SUBS
M. Bolden
H. Giles

OTHER SUBS
Jeter
rest of the guys

Now, let's focus on the subs that are the key to getting this team to a national title contender: M. Bolden and H. Giles.

Key things to look for in the Elon game and next few games:

M. Bolden will need to sub in as a backup to A. Jefferson. This is his main (almost only) way to help the team as a backup center. He will have to play very good. He will need to score, rebound, play defense, and not take too many shots away from the guards L. Kennard, G. Allen, J. Tatum. This sounds simple but it is not. Basically, he has to be really good individually but even better as a team player. The easy way to visualize this is to look at A. Jefferson. He does this role perfectly and M. Bolden will need to do it the same or better when he comes in the game(s), or he will just be limited to getting A. Jefferson a rest and then go back to the bench. This is the reality. I hope he is so good that he ends up splitting minutes with A. Jefferson. This would be the best senerio for the team.

H. Giles will need to sub in as a backup at the 4 or 5, it seems. I really don'l know as much about Giles game since he's just getting started. The best senerio is that during his game time he shows (like L. Kennard has shown) that he needs to be on the court no matter what. When a player does this (like L. Kennard has done), it leaves the coach in a better position because the player has clearly made a place for himself.

In summary, M. Bolden and H. Giles will certainly be getting opportunities to fit into this team. They will have to play very very good to get significant minutes on this team, as will Frank. Frank has done a great job other than a few sporadic moments of turnovers. I think we know Frank's role; he will sub in for the guards and he is going to be really good in his role. Let's hope that M. Bolden and H. Giles show themselves in a way worthy of significant playing time. We need their talent on the floor, but they have to play as good or better that the players they are subbing in for. Therefore, the burden is really on the players and not on the coach. He will give them opportunities after opportunities.

Thoughts?

coot

[Sixthman]

The best news is that we have the best coach. We also have extreme talent. Now, chemistry/rotation are the priorities. This makes the Elon game very important for assessment and for how the next several practices and 3 or 4 games will need to go. Coach K is the master.

It's pretty well established right now that the following will be how this all gets started:

STARTERS
G. Allen
L. Kennard
M. Jones
J. Tatum
A. Jefferson

FIRST OFF BENCH
F. Jackson for the guards


TOP PRIORITY SUBS
M. Bolden
H. Giles

OTHER SUBS
Jeter
rest of the guys

Now, let's focus on the subs that are the key to getting this team to a national title contender: M. Bolden and H. Giles.

Key things to look for in the Elon game and next few games:

M. Bolden will need to sub in as a backup to A. Jefferson. This is his main (almost only) way to help the team as a backup center. He will have to play very good. He will need to score, rebound, play defense, and not take too many shots away from the guards L. Kennard, G. Allen, J. Tatum. This sounds simple but it is not. Basically, he has to be really good individually but even better as a team player. The easy way to visualize this is to look at A. Jefferson. He does this role perfectly and M. Bolden will need to do it the same or better when he comes in the game(s), or he will just be limited to getting A. Jefferson a rest and then go back to the bench. This is the reality. I hope he is so good that he ends up splitting minutes with A. Jefferson. This would be the best senerio for the team.

H. Giles will need to sub in as a backup at the 4 or 5, it seems. I really don'l know as much about Giles game since he's just getting started. The best senerio is that during his game time he shows (like L. Kennard has shown) that he needs to be on the court no matter what. When a player does this (like L. Kennard has done), it leaves the coach in a better position because the player has clearly made a place for himself.

In summary, M. Bolden and H. Giles will certainly be getting opportunities to fit into this team. They will have to play very very good to get significant minutes on this team, as will Frank. Frank has done a great job other than a few sporadic moments of turnovers. I think we know Frank's role; he will sub in for the guards and he is going to be really good in his role. Let's hope that M. Bolden and H. Giles show themselves in a way worthy of significant playing time. We need their talent on the floor, but they have to play as good or better that the players they are subbing in for. Therefore, the burden is really on the players and not on the coach. He will give them opportunities after opportunities.

Thoughts?

coot

Coach is going to play the rotation that he thinks gives us the best chance to win championships. I would take exception to the idea that Duke needs to plug Giles and Bolden in to be a national title contender. The team that is 10-1 and is sporting a daily improving Jason Tatum is, if healthy, clearly a contender. We need Giles and Bolden to be the best team we can be and we increase our chances of bring a great team with those guys finding a roll -- whatever that roll might be. As fans, we don't always agree with roster decisions our coaches make (see the six man rotation we played earlier this season). IMO, we may feel in the next thirty days as if we are putting wins in jeopardy in the short run in the interests of becoming the best team we can be by March. We did not jump from September to November in two games (particularly during exams). It may be late September, but we are not yet seeing a complete roster in regular season playing form, let alone ACC season form. It's a tough conference out there, with teams just as tough as Tenneesse State but with more talent -- teams which will finish in the middle of the conference pack while picking up a couple of wins against the conference leaders. It seems clears Coach would like to use the full court zone trap and he likely has in mind using it more and more aggressively than we have yet seen it. That is a move which implies playing a longer rotation than typical. He would do this because he thinks he has the talent to go deeper and we all hope he is right. If everyone stays healthy, Giles and Bolden come into their own, and the team chemistry remains strong, I think this will be a great team and we will not think of positions or who is starting or who is coming off the bench but of combinations.

[DukeDevil]

Wannamaker as a Frosh, then 3 years in House CC. I didn't get over to East much. :rolleyes:

Wannamaker? I hardly knew her!

Seriously though, I think the fast turnaround may be a good thing, get their heads back on in basketball mode. This team, when it's clicking, it a thing of beauty. I mean specifically the passing. They get to a point where they all know where everyone is, balls are passed within half a second of receiving it to someone else without looking, and the shooter end up having like 3 seconds before a closeout to shoot because the defense has rotated over so much they're discombobulated. I just hope they get to the point they can keep that up the majority of the game without getting frustrated. It takes a supreme amount of confidence to move the ball like that, as well as trust in your fellow teammates, and anytime they slow down or hesitate it goes to hell.

[DukieTiger]

I agree that this game is important, but I wouldn't read too much into anything that happens in this one since there is such a long break afterward.

It will be good to get Giles and Bolden more acclimated. Frank probably shouldn't play too much- he needs to get back to being healthy. But it's a good chance to get more reps together. I agree that it leads into an important stretch. My guess at their schedule after today:

Thurs-Sunday: Players travel home. Time for bodies to heal, rest, etc.

Return to Duke on Monday.

Tues-Friday: Practices and travel.

Saturday: @VT

After that, you have the easiest stretch you'll have in ACC play (1/1-1/9), playing twice in 9 days at home against the two worst teams in the league.

So plenty of time to get the rotation settled, get healthy, get guys used to playing with each other. I guess my point is that this doesn't have to all be accomplished tonight from 6-8p. :)

[Spanarkel]

It seems we have a disproportionate House CC representation in the DBR community.

What's up with that?


House P as freshman, then 3 years in House CC. Can't easily explain the number of House CC DBR posters(proximity to CIS, prevalence of engineers, ?).

[BD80]

It seems we have a disproportionate House CC representation in the DBR community.

What's up with that?

I believe we also have a disproportionate number of Mirecourt alum.

Maybe we should start a "minutes" thread for total time lurking on DBR?

Or a +/- thread for total feedback.

[Rich]

Can't easily explain the number of House CC DBR posters (proximity to CIS, prevalence of engineers, ?).


I believe we also have a disproportionate number of Mirecourt alum.

Fraternity guys are more successful and have less time to waste on DBR? Well, other than OPK, of course!

[TKG]

House P as freshman, then 3 years in House CC. Can't easily explain the number of House CC DBR posters(proximity to CIS, prevalence of engineers, ?).

House P as a freshman as well. Then three years in the SAE section - do not know the House name.

[dyedwab]

This team, when it's clicking, it a thing of beauty. I mean specifically the passing. They get to a point where they all know where everyone is, balls are passed within half a second of receiving it to someone else without looking, and the shooter end up having like 3 seconds before a closeout to shoot because the defense has rotated over so much they're discombobulated. I just hope they get to the point they can keep that up the majority of the game without getting frustrated. It takes a supreme amount of confidence to move the ball like that, as well as trust in your fellow teammates, and anytime they slow down or hesitate it goes to hell.


I want to focus on this for just a minute. Already, even with the injuries and players missing time, and without a traditional "point guard", the ball movement this team produces, for short burst so far, has been some of the most beautiful I have seen from any Duke team. As the team gets its full compliment back, games like Elon give them a chance to improve on this. I mean, even in the Tennessee State game, we had some wonderful passing sequences that ended in missed shots because our shooting seemed to be off the whole game. But the combination of aggressive drivers, strong outside shooters, players who can create their own shots guarded one on one, ability to make shots in the lane, and good rebounding can lead to lots of plays where the ball moves quickly among three or four offensive options.

[OldPhiKap]

Fraternity guys are more successful and have less time to waste on DBR? Well, other than OPK, of course!

I outsource posting duties to my minions and underlings on most days. I only do the puns, really.

Glad to be reminded that the game is at 6 tonight, not 7. Had not caught that until this morning.

[elvis14]

He's not better than frank, I mean the guy turns back as soon the ball is inbounded to bring ball all the way up the court. His d is not much better frank mason created huge gap on a basic stop and pop for a game winner

To be fair to the new guy, I'll play along. First let me say that you are not going to get much (OK, any) support for your contention that Matt's defense isn't much better than Franks. Matt's defense has been very good for 4 years now. He struggled some last year when he was injured. There's more to good defense than simple on the ball defense, especially in the way Duke plays defense. Matt (and Amile) excel at playing team defense and are quite good at on the ball/individual defense as well.

Yes, Frank Mason scored the game winning bucket on a nice stop and fade. Hats off to him, he was on fire that night...which we played down 3 guys and lost by 2.

Yes, I think Frank Jackson is much more talented offensively than Matt. But, there's only 1 ball and Matt does a nice job being a spot up shooter to help space the floor so guys like Frank, Grayson, Luke and Jayson have space to drive and have a kick out. Much of what Frank gives us on the offensive end we already get from Grayson, Luke and Jayson. Frank has great potential and a ceiling that's higher than Matt's but right now, Matt (who leads the team in plus/minus) is a more effective college basketball player for Duke. Note, that Matt's shot has been off and I fully admit that when you have a 3+D guy who's not hitting the 3 that it makes him less effective but I think Matt's shot will come back sooner rather than later.

Nothing wrong with dissenting opinions around here but, as you can tell, sanity checks show up quickly.

[flyingdutchdevil]

To be fair to the new guy, I'll play along. First let me say that you are not going to get much (OK, any) support for your contention that Matt's defense isn't much better than Franks. Matt's defense has been very good for 4 years now. He struggled some last year when he was injured. There's more to good defense than simple on the ball defense, especially in the way Duke plays defense. Matt (and Amile) excel at playing team defense and are quite good at on the ball/individual defense as well.

Yes, Frank Mason scored the game winning bucket on a nice stop and fade. Hats off to him, he was on fire that night...which we played down 3 guys and lost by 2.

Yes, I think Frank Jackson is much more talented offensively than Matt. But, there's only 1 ball and Matt does a nice job being a spot up shooter to help space the floor so guys like Frank, Grayson, Luke and Jayson have space to drive and have a kick out. Much of what Frank gives us on the offensive end we already get from Grayson, Luke and Jayson. Frank has great potential and a ceiling that's higher than Matt's but right now, Matt (who leads the team in plus/minus) is a more effective college basketball player for Duke. Note, that Matt's shot has been off and I fully admit that when you have a 3+D guy who's not hitting the 3 that it makes him less effective but I think Matt's shot will come back sooner rather than later.

Nothing wrong with dissenting opinions around here but, as you can tell, sanity checks show up quickly.

Since scoring a season high 15 points against Penn State on November 19, Matt Jones is, no joke, 8-33 from 3pt land (24%). Since App St on November 26, he's 2-18 (11%). Jones, on the year, is shooting 36% from the field and 32% from 3pt land. For a) a senior and b) a spot-up shooter who doesn't offer much offensively outside of the open 3pt shot, he's severely under-performed on the offensive end.

However, due to defense, Matt Jones needs to play significant minutes. He's our one guy who is okay at stopping penetration from fast guards (Matt's bread and butter is guarding bigger, physical guards, IMO). If Jackson catches up to Matt's D, then it makes a ton of sense for Jackson to eat Matt's minutes. But until we see that, we'll be seeing plenty of Matt Jones.

[Bob Green]

However, due to defense, Matt Jones needs to play significant minutes.

I agree with flyingdutchdevil but will take it a step further...

Through 12 games, Matt Jones is averaging 34.1 mpg and he will continue to play major minutes as long as he stays healthy because Coach K trusts him. Matt Jones brings experience and leadership on the court. Those attributes weigh heavily.

We can slice it and dice it until the cows come home, and allow me to assure everyone I absolutely love reading you guys and gals slicing and dicing analysis, the bottom line is Coach K trusts Matt Jones and is going to play Matt Jones major minutes.

Frank Jackson is a very talented player with the potential to develop into a star but he is not going to eat into Matt Jones minutes on a consistent basis. He may get some of Matt's minutes as situations present themselves due to Coach K determining the team gains an advantage over a specific opponent by Jackson seeing more playing time or if Matt is in foul trouble.

http://www1.nmnathletics.com/fls/4200/stats/2016-17/basketball-m/teamcume.htm?_ga=1.103724168.969260584.1462550106

[Volunteer Duke]

The line is up to -26 in Vegas.

I think it will be awesome if Harry gets a crowd-pleasing slam dunk or two tonight in what is essentially his home arena!

Also, I love the starting time for this game! 6 o'clock games rock! I was so miserable waiting for the Michigan State game to start at 9:30 earlier this year.

[jv001]

An observation:
Minutes, Rotation or whatever you want to call it, is mostly decided by play in practice sessions. So far it's been near impossible to have practice sessions with all our key players. Notice I didn't say best players. Grayson, Frank, Harry, Bolden, Jayson and even Jeter have missed not only games but more importantly practice time. As Coach K has said, we're closer to October than January in terms of being where we should be because of these injuries. I trust Coach to make the correct call in who starts and who's playing at the end of close games. The most important thing is for the team to get healthy and stay healthy.
Another observation: There are many times I get upset at a player because I didn't see the whole picture on a play. Troublemakers GIF has shown that sometimes I was wrong about a player missing an assignment because of the speed of the game. But when broken down in slow motion, I was wrong in my criticism. Team defense is more than staying in front of your man. Our defense is not easy to learn and I think Frank has not caught up just yet. The same can be said of Harry and Bolden. We're a long way from where we will be come March. I'm just going to enjoy the season and hope that Duke plays up to it's potential. If they do, we'll have a great chance at making the FF. So, GoDuke!

[Neals384]

Elon is 7-4, but hasn't beaten anybody significant. Best game was a three-point loss to Georgetown ... or a 2 OT win over Northern Illinois.

Losses to Charlotte, Radford, UC Asheville and G'town.

Coach Matt Matheny (a Bob McKillop disciple that I think is pretty good) has four starters back off a 16-16 team.

The best player is probably senior point guard Luke Eddy. 6-4 Steven Santa Ana (Remember the Alamo!) is their most explosive scorer. Not a lot of size -- they have a 6-11 Lithuanian who plays about 12 minutes a game and several 6-8 guys who get the bulk of the time in the post.

They are pretty average when it comes to most team stats -- the one exception is that they don't get to the foul line (301st nationally) and when they do get there, they don't shoot well (294th nationally).

Should be a fairly easy game (although after Monday night's grinder, how confident can you be?). Elon is actually rated pretty close to where Tennessee State was before the Duke game, but they are not as experienced, not as athletic and not as physically strong. The crowd is Greensboro will probably be no worse than 60-40 pro Duke (probably more like 70-30).

For me, I'll be most interested to see if Harry Giles gets a chance to show anything ... Giles and Bolden. And maybe DeLaurier (did anybody notice that he didn't warm up Monday night or even take off his sweats?)

Thanks for the summary. As usual, it's more informative (and in this case, more accurate) than the DBR front page (which has Elon beating GTown).

[Fish80]

I agree with flyingdutchdevil but will take it a step further...

Through 12 games, Matt Jones is averaging 34.1 mpg and he will continue to play major minutes as long as he stays healthy because Coach K trusts him. Matt Jones brings experience and leadership on the court. Those attributes weigh heavily.

We can slice it and dice it until the cows come home, and allow me to assure everyone I absolutely love reading you guys and gals slicing and dicing analysis, the bottom line is Coach K trusts Matt Jones and is going to play Matt Jones major minutes.

Frank Jackson is a very talented player with the potential to develop into a star but he is not going to eat into Matt Jones minutes on a consistent basis. He may get some of Matt's minutes as situations present themselves due to Coach K determining the team gains an advantage over a specific opponent by Jackson seeing more playing time or if Matt is in foul trouble.

http://www1.nmnathletics.com/fls/4200/stats/2016-17/basketball-m/teamcume.htm?_ga=1.103724168.969260584.1462550106

Mr. Green, I respect the heck out of you. And agree with your premise that Matt will continue to play major minutes. However, we're on the cusp of a seismic shift in minutes. This is the year we play a nine man rotation. Nobody averages more than 30 minutes going forward. Nine deep. It's a beautiful thing.

[Bomar]

I will not be home in time to watch this game live. How long does it usually take after the game for the replay to be available on WatchESPN?

[Saratoga2]

An observation:
Minutes, Rotation or whatever you want to call it, is mostly decided by play in practice sessions. So far it's been near impossible to have practice sessions with all our key players. Notice I didn't say best players. Grayson, Frank, Harry, Bolden, Jayson and even Jeter have missed not only games but more importantly practice time. As Coach K has said, we're closer to October than January in terms of being where we should be because of these injuries. I trust Coach to make the correct call in who starts and who's playing at the end of close games. The most important thing is for the team to get healthy and stay healthy.
Another observation: There are many times I get upset at a player because I didn't see the whole picture on a play. Troublemakers GIF has shown that sometimes I was wrong about a player missing an assignment because of the speed of the game. But when broken down in slow motion, I was wrong in my criticism. Team defense is more than staying in front of your man. Our defense is not easy to learn and I think Frank has not caught up just yet. The same can be said of Harry and Bolden. We're a long way from where we will be come March. I'm just going to enjoy the season and hope that Duke plays up to it's potential. If they do, we'll have a great chance at making the FF. So, GoDuke!

Coach K has said that this team is early in its development due primarily to injuries. It would be advantageous to have at least one of our Freshmen big men to step forward and become a viable contributor to the team as a shot blocker, rebounder and scorer. Jeter is still not as far along as some of the competitor's big men we will face. Will Bolden with his size be the one? At this time he looks quite raw and he seems to lack touch on his shot. It is understandable based on the limited PT. Maybe practice time will be better after the game tonight and he can step forward. The same can be said for Giles. My expectations for him are high and I look for him to be versatile on both offense and defense. I expected him to perform on a par with Tatum and maybe he will, given time and experience. Having that one more big man piece will put this team in the category of the top of the heap. Without that, in my view we still are in the top 10 or better.

I would love to watch the game tonight and get another look and these big men but my wife has set up our social calendar. I view this game as just one more step in their development and not a key for them.

[BD80]

... I would love to watch the game tonight and get another look and these big men but my wife has set up our social calendar. ...

Hopefully the next wife will be more aware of the Duke BB schedule ...

[NYBri]

Hopefully the next wife will be more aware of the Duke BB schedule ...

{...he said ducking}

[Indoor66]

{...he said ducking}

Why "ducking"? A man has to keep his priorities straight. Just get rid of her. :p:cool:

[budwom]

Any guesses as to how much a ticket in the parking lot will be?

Well, there's a big supply at the box office starting at $15...

[budwom]

Mr. Green, I respect the heck out of you. And agree with your premise that Matt will continue to play major minutes. However, we're on the cusp of a seismic shift in minutes. This is the year we play a nine man rotation. Nobody averages more than 30 minutes going forward. Nine deep. It's a beautiful thing.

It may be a beautiful thing, Fish, but it is clearly a fictitious thing. Some players WILL play more than 30 minutes/game going forward, and the chances of a nine man rotation are as slim as Brandon Ingram's legs.
Eight is likely, eight point five maybe, nine? Nein.

[BD80]

It may be a beautiful thing, Fish, but it is clearly a fictitious thing. Some players WILL play more than 30 minutes/game going forward, and the chances of a nine man rotation are as slim as Brandon Ingram's legs.
Eight is likely, eight point five maybe, nine? Nein.

Step into my office: You're Fired! Seven's the number. Seven doors. Seven chipmunks twirlin' on a branch. You're dreaming of gorgonzola when it's clearly brie time, baby.

[budwom]

Step into my office: You're Fired! Seven's the number. Seven doors. Seven chipmunks twirlin' on a branch. You're dreaming of gorgonzola when it's clearly brie time, baby.

I shall happily concede that it could well turn out to be seven swans a swimming, though I'm still leaning towards eight maids a milking...but nine ladies dancing? A metaphor too far!

[Fish80]

You got your starting five.
Harry is going to play.
Frank is going to play.
Marques is going to play.
Chase is going to play.
That's 4 more.
5 + 4 = 9
Q.E.D.

[devildeac]

I shall happily concede that it could well turn out to be seven swans a swimming, though I'm still leaning towards eight maids a milking...but nine ladies dancing? A metaphor too far!

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

6973

[flyingdutchdevil]

You got your starting five.
Harry is going to play.
Frank is going to play.
Marques is going to play.
Chase is going to play.
That's 4 more.
5 + 4 = 9
Q.E.D.

Nope. Not much. If he does play, then Bolden doesn't. Coach K will go with 8 main rotation players, max.

[budwom]

Nope. Not much. If he does play, then Bolden doesn't. Coach K will go with 8 main rotation players, max.

yup, I don't see both Jeter and Bolden in the rotation. Just as a question, what is the minimum minutes per game figure which counts as "being in the rotation?"
Ten as an absolute bottom end limit, but something more like 15 seems reasonable...

[Fish80]

yup, I don't see both Jeter and Bolden in the rotation. Just as a question, what is the minimum minutes per game figure which counts as "being in the rotation?"
Ten as an absolute bottom end limit, but something more like 15 seems reasonable...

Why impose an arbitrary minimum? Suppose player C comes in after the under 8 timeout for 2 to 3 minutes each half on a regular basis. Maybe they're averaging 5 minutes per game. Why isn't that "in the rotation"?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Why impose an arbitrary minimum? Suppose player C comes in after the under 8 timeout for 2 to 3 minutes each half on a regular basis. Maybe they're averaging 5 minutes per game. Why isn't that "in the rotation"?

Because a Coach K rotation player plays plenty of minutes, unlike, say, a Calipari or Roy rotation player who may average ~18 minutes. That doesn't really happen with Coach K. He rides his starters and key subs really hard. That's just his style.

[MarkD83]

We tend to look at the minutes discussion as a quantitative discussion. Instead think of it as options for Coach K.

Marques and Chase are not getting a lot of minutes because Amile is playing great. Why take someone off the court just to even out the minutes?

Jason is playing well at a pseudo back court position, but is also pulling down some rebounds. Luke is playing great and Grayson is starting to show flashes of last year. That means Frank may not get in that much.

The fact that the rotation is short means that the starters are playing really well. This is in contrast to 2015 where Duke ONLY had 8 players.

If Amile gets into foul trouble or Luke or Grayson start to have an off night, there are 3 players that can come in and fill in.

The real issue with minutes is if Harry starts to play as well as advertised and can't be taken off the court. In that case, do you sit Amile if he is playing well, do you sit Jason...Do you move Jason to the backcourt full time and sit Luke or Grayson....

Lots of options that will be fun to watch.

I also see Coach K using his roster to exploit advantages against specific teams. For example, watching the UNC / KY game, UNC still can't defend the 3 so having Luke, Grayson and Jason on the court at the same time would be a nightmare for UNC. UNC's guards can't even guard 3 point shooters how would a third big that Roy always likes to use be able to handle this.

Ky had to have one of their guards move to the front court against UNC. For them, imagine playing Harry, Amile and Marques up front. Chase could then sub in with a rotation that always has 3 bigs on the floor. That would again cause some major match-up issues. (OK I admit Coach K may never do this, but imagine 2 bigs always on the floor).

The point is even top-notch teams will have match-up problems if Duke has 9 players that CAN play. The actual minutes on the court may vary and on average at the end of the year determining the size of the rotation may not be that easy.

[Kedsy]

The point is even top-notch teams will have match-up problems if Duke has 9 players that CAN play. The actual minutes on the court may vary and on average at the end of the year determining the size of the rotation may not be that easy.

I agree with this. In 2013 I interviewed Jeff Capel for BDN, and he suggested that depth doesn't necessarily mean playing that many guys in the games, but in having guys available who can step up when you need them. He said we had it that year (when Amile and Josh Hairston stepped up when Ryan Kelly got hurt), but we clearly have it this year, as we've already seen with all the injuries. Guys like Chase and Frank and even Luke (who wasn't expected to have such a large role in the offense before the season started) have stepped up big-time and the team has hardly missed a beat.

[English]

I agree with this. In 2013 I interviewed Jeff Capel for BDN, and he suggested that depth doesn't necessarily mean playing that many guys in the games, but in having guys available who can step up when you need them. He said we had it that year (when Amile and Josh Hairston stepped up when Ryan Kelly got hurt), but we clearly have it this year, as we've already seen with all the injuries. Guys like Chase and Frank and even Luke (who wasn't expected to have such a large role in the offense before the season started) have stepped up big-time and the team has hardly missed a beat.

So, is that essentially all available/uninjured scholarship players on the roster? If not measured in playing time, couldn't we just consider everyone on the bench among the rotational options the coaching staff has at their disposal? So what if Coach K doesn't actually play more than seven guys...we have a 10-man rotation because, presumably, it's possible that at any time, those other guys may get the call. That definition of 'rotation' doesn't seem super meaningful to me.

This discussion seems to have blended the concepts of depth and rotation somewhere along the way. Capel's principle of depth makes more sense than this abstract idea that the rotation is all players who could potentially be used at some point irrespective of actual playing time.

[BandAlum83]

To be fair to the new guy, I'll play along. First let me say that you are not going to get much (OK, any) support for your contention that Matt's defense isn't much better than Franks. Matt's defense has been very good for 4 years now. He struggled some last year when he was injured. There's more to good defense than simple on the ball defense, especially in the way Duke plays defense. Matt (and Amile) excel at playing team defense and are quite good at on the ball/individual defense as well.

Yes, Frank Mason scored the game winning bucket on a nice stop and fade. Hats off to him, he was on fire that night...which we played down 3 guys and lost by 2.

Yes, I think Frank Jackson is much more talented offensively than Matt. But, there's only 1 ball and Matt does a nice job being a spot up shooter to help space the floor so guys like Frank, Grayson, Luke and Jayson have space to drive and have a kick out. Much of what Frank gives us on the offensive end we already get from Grayson, Luke and Jayson. Frank has great potential and a ceiling that's higher than Matt's but right now, Matt (who leads the team in plus/minus) is a more effective college basketball player for Duke. Note, that Matt's shot has been off and I fully admit that when you have a 3+D guy who's not hitting the 3 that it makes him less effective but I think Matt's shot will come back sooner rather than later.

Nothing wrong with dissenting opinions around here but, as you can tell, sanity checks show up quickly.

I still say, despite Matt's recent slump, that there will be a game where the opponent wil cheat off of Matt all night in order to focus on GA or Luke or Jayson or Harry, or...

And on that night, Matt will drain 5 or more spot up 3s.

[budwom]

So, is that essentially all available/uninjured scholarship players on the roster? If not measured in playing time, couldn't we just consider everyone on the bench among the rotational options the coaching staff has at their disposal? So what if Coach K doesn't actually play more than seven guys...we have a 10-man rotation because, presumably, it's possible that at any time, those other guys may get the call. That definition of 'rotation' doesn't seem super meaningful to me.

This discussion seems to have blended the concepts of depth and rotation somewhere along the way. Capel's principle of depth makes more sense than this abstract idea that the rotation is all players who could potentially be used at some point irrespective of actual playing time.

I agree....depth is a separate issue, we clearly have an abundance of quality depth....if a player isn't playing at the very least ten minutes per game, I don't see how he can be considered to be in the rotation.
(not that any of this matters, of course...)

[Kedsy]

So, is that essentially all available/uninjured scholarship players on the roster? If not measured in playing time, couldn't we just consider everyone on the bench among the rotational options the coaching staff has at their disposal? So what if Coach K doesn't actually play more than seven guys...we have a 10-man rotation because, presumably, it's possible that at any time, those other guys may get the call. That definition of 'rotation' doesn't seem super meaningful to me.

This discussion seems to have blended the concepts of depth and rotation somewhere along the way. Capel's principle of depth makes more sense than this abstract idea that the rotation is all players who could potentially be used at some point irrespective of actual playing time.

Absolutely. The discussion I related from Jeff Capel was about "depth," not rotation.

Personally, I don't think a guy who plays 2 or 3 minutes a half is "in the rotation," though the opposing arguments have some validity.

[English]

We tend to look at the minutes discussion as a quantitative discussion. Instead think of it as options for Coach K.

Marques and Chase are not getting a lot of minutes because Amile is playing great. Why take someone off the court just to even out the minutes?

Jason is playing well at a pseudo back court position, but is also pulling down some rebounds. Luke is playing great and Grayson is starting to show flashes of last year. That means Frank may not get in that much.

The fact that the rotation is short means that the starters are playing really well. This is in contrast to 2015 where Duke ONLY had 8 players.

If Amile gets into foul trouble or Luke or Grayson start to have an off night, there are 3 players that can come in and fill in.

The real issue with minutes is if Harry starts to play as well as advertised and can't be taken off the court. In that case, do you sit Amile if he is playing well, do you sit Jason...Do you move Jason to the backcourt full time and sit Luke or Grayson...

Lots of options that will be fun to watch.

I also see Coach K using his roster to exploit advantages against specific teams. For example, watching the UNC / KY game, UNC still can't defend the 3 so having Luke, Grayson and Jason on the court at the same time would be a nightmare for UNC. UNC's guards can't even guard 3 point shooters how would a third big that Roy always likes to use be able to handle this.

Ky had to have one of their guards move to the front court against UNC. For them, imagine playing Harry, Amile and Marques up front. Chase could then sub in with a rotation that always has 3 bigs on the floor. That would again cause some major match-up issues. (OK I admit Coach K may never do this, but imagine 2 bigs always on the floor).

The point is even top-notch teams will have match-up problems if Duke has 9 players that CAN play. The actual minutes on the court may vary and on average at the end of the year determining the size of the rotation may not be that easy.

Jayson Tatum.

[BandAlum83]

Coach K has said that this team is early in its development due primarily to injuries. It would be advantageous to have at least one of our Freshmen big men to step forward and become a viable contributor to the team as a shot blocker, rebounder and scorer. Jeter is still not as far along as some of the competitor's big men we will face. Will Bolden with his size be the one? At this time he looks quite raw and he seems to lack touch on his shot. It is understandable based on the limited PT. Maybe practice time will be better after the game tonight and he can step forward. The same can be said for Giles. My expectations for him are high and I look for him to be versatile on both offense and defense. I expected him to perform on a par with Tatum and maybe he will, given time and experience. Having that one more big man piece will put this team in the category of the top of the heap. Without that, in my view we still are in the top 10 or better.

I would love to watch the game tonight and get another look and these big men but my wife has set up our social calendar. I view this game as just one more step in their development and not a key for them.

The serious Duke fan absolutely needs a DVR.

[BandAlum83]

I agree with this. In 2013 I interviewed Jeff Capel for BDN, and he suggested that depth doesn't necessarily mean playing that many guys in the games, but in having guys available who can step up when you need them. He said we had it that year (when Amile and Josh Hairston stepped up when Ryan Kelly got hurt), but we clearly have it this year, as we've already seen with all the injuries. Guys like Chase and Frank and even Luke (who wasn't expected to have such a large role in the offense before the season started) have stepped up big-time and the team has hardly missed a beat.

We had it in 2015 when a relatively little used guard saved our bacon in the Final because he COULD play.

[dukelifer]

Because a Coach K rotation player plays plenty of minutes, unlike, say, a Calipari or Roy rotation player who may average ~18 minutes. That doesn't really happen with Coach K. He rides his starters and key subs really hard. That's just his style.

Can never win that way. K just wears outs his players. He would have 10-15 National Championships if he just listened to this board.

[Indoor66]

Can never win that way. K just wears outs his players. He would have 10-15 National Championships if he just listened to this board.

Your comment fits well with your Avatar! :D:p:cool:

[brevity]

Can never win that way. K just wears outs his players. He would have 10-15 National Championships if he just listened to this board.

More like 9-14 championships, if Coach K listened to DBR in 2001.

[Duke79UNLV77]

No chat?

[brevity]

No chat?

It's open:
http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/misc.php?do=cchatbox

[WVDUKEFAN]

It isn't a pretty game...

[SCMatt33]

That's a close call on the elbow. The new rule was employed there, as explained on TV, but the part not mentioned is that the elbow can't be above the shoulders (or below the waist for that matter). It was close as his elbow was rising, but probably right about at shoulder level when contact was made.

[Tripping William]

Grayson: Here we go again. Ugh.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Anyone counting the times the announcers say "live-ball turnovers?" Seems they invented the concept.

[Indoor66]

No excuse for Allen.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Embarrassing

[ChrisP]

Come on, Grayson!

[Coballs]

Here we go again! What is Grayson's problem?!? The media is going to have a field day with this...and I have to say it's deserved and entirely his own fault. He should not see the court for the rest of this game.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

No excuse for Allen.

He can't help himself sometimes. He can't whine about the refs om this one. Geez, he needs to control himself. Not a good look.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Big time Duke fan, first time poster. Come on Grayson, you're better than that. Clearly he did that intentionally. Unfortunate cause the haters are going to really go off on him.

[WVDUKEFAN]

I've been watching Duke basketball for 30 years. We don't play that kind of ball. He needs to knock it off or get down the road.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Losing it on the sidelines on national television. You are better than that.

[MartyClark]

I love this kid but can't understand what he just did.

I can't tell whether he was distraught or emotional after the T. I pull for this guy and admire his skill and tenacity. This is not good for him.

[fan345678]

Can anyone get a GIF of the dude grabbing Grayson's neck around a screen earlier? It wasn't even called, let alone reviewed, but might be a useful thing to have.

[MarkD83]

I'm hoping he sits the 2nd half to send a message

[Kjeffrey]

Losing it on the sidelines on national television. You are better than that.

I used to think so but I am beginning to doubt that. Young people make mistakes but the real measure of someone is learning from mistakes and making better decisions. Very disappointing.

[uh_no]

Can anyone get a GIF of the dude grabbing Grayson's neck around a screen earlier? It wasn't even called, let alone reviewed, but might be a useful thing to have.

While it may have been a foul, at this point, I don't think it's appropriate to try to excuse Grayson's behavior. He screwed up regardless of what was done to him previously.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Can anyone get a GIF of the dude grabbing Grayson's neck around a screen earlier? It wasn't even called, let alone reviewed, but might be a useful thing to have.

Still can't lose your head like that, no matter the circumstances.

[subzero02]

He'll recover from it but that's the angriest I have seen a Duke player during a game since JJ threw down his towel during the sweet 16 matchup vs. LSU. I am sure twitter will be all over Grayson. He's going to have to toughen up because the ACC crowds and probably every crowd from here on out will be all over him.

[arnie]

It isn't a pretty game...

Tonite Tatum and Kennard - not much else.

[uh_no]

He'll recover from it but that's the angriest I have seen a Duke player during a game since JJ threw down his towel during the sweet 16 matchup vs. LSU. I am sure twitter will be all over Grayson. He's going to have to toughen up because the ACC crowds and probably every crowd from here on out will be all over him.

I think he was mad at himself for realizing he screwed up again. He realized the can of worms that just got reopened. I'd be in tears if I were him at that point. I wouldn't be surprised if he's as disappointed in himself as we and K probably are in him.

[MarkD83]

That just killed dukes momentum

[WHOneedsSOX]

I think he was mad at himself for realizing he screwed up again. He realized the can of worms that just got reopened. I'd be in tears if I were him at that point. I wouldn't be surprised if he's as disappointed in himself as we and K probably are in him.

I think that's right. That ESPN article about him this summer talked about how embarrassed he was about all that stuff and how that's not him. Unfortunately he did it again. I'd suspend him the next game if I was coach K. He's the captain of the team, that's unacceptable.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I think he was mad at himself for realizing he screwed up again. He realized the can of worms that just got reopened. I'd be in tears if I were him at that point. I wouldn't be surprised if he's as disappointed in himself as we and K probably are in him.

He was yelling some pretty choice words at the ref for someone upset at himself.

He is a distraction and a live wire. Needs to get his head together pronto.

[Kjeffrey]

Why is this team struggling with teams like Tennessee State and Elon?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The media will have a field day, but he's asked for it.

[jbay201]

looks like we play down to our competition and lack of amile jefferson after allen's foul

im sure coach k plays amile entire 2nd half

[weezie]

Why is this team struggling with teams like Tennessee State and Elon?


I guess cuz there are still so many moving pieces. New team every day. Maybe now Grayson is able to practice more but some cues are being missed between guys who haven't played together much?

Just got home, where's chat?

[Newton_14]

Just a really dumb move. The guy has his arm hooked and pinned down but that doesn't matter. You just can't do that. I think the sideline meltdown was a case of being mad at himself but it won't be portrayed as that. The kid is going to get crucified. And if K plays him the second half he will get crucified too. We didn't need this especially with how we have played the last 3 halves... lots of one on one play or one pass for a three that doesn't go down

Edit: forgot to add... I would bet the house the ACC suspends him for the Va Tech game

[duke4ever19]

He was yelling some pretty choice words at the ref for someone upset at himself.

He is a distraction and a live wire. Needs to get his head together pronto.

It can be a bit of both, can't it?

In my opinion, he's both upset at the way the game is being called, as well as being mad at himself for cementing his legacy as one of those "dirty Duke players."

Edit: ESPN just reposted the "Reclaiming his Reputation" article to the front page. (smh) It's gonna be a circus.

[Kjeffrey]

I guess cuz there are still so many moving pieces. New team every day. Maybe now Grayson is able to practice more but some cues are being missed between guys who haven't played together much?

Just got home, where's chat?

Link is on page 4

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I imagine K is going to quickly get tired of talking about Grayson.

[Kjeffrey]

I guess cuz there are still so many moving pieces. New team every day. Maybe now Grayson is able to practice more but some cues are being missed between guys who haven't played together much?

Just got home, where's chat?

Could be. But there is so much talent.

[Volunteer Duke]

I am frustrated that Harry Giles and Marques Bolden aren't playing instead of Chase Jeter.

I like Grayson's competitive edge. Laettner had it and he won two titles.

He may care too much about what the ESPN talking heads are going to say, which may have led to his outburst. That Elon guy was twisting his elbow, so I understand the visceral reaction of trying to get back at him. Stuff like that happens in all sports.

Really ugly first half, but it's not the end of the world. We'll be a different team by March.

As always, JMO.

[Olympic Fan]

I want to post here so I can vent, knowing the thread will be locked after the game.

But allow me to say, that was perhaps the worst half of Duke basketball I've seen in the Krzyzewski era.

There were so many things wrong ....

-- The worst was the Allen trip and meltdown. He made the tripping story come alive again ...

-- The second was another useless appearance by Giles (and Bolden). Both appeared, but did nothing. I was hoping for a little progress,

-- The third was the selfishness on offense. I can't remember a Duke team that was so selfish -- especially Tatum and Kennard. There was little ball movement and few passes to set up teammates. Instead, time after time, there was Tatum or Kennard putting his head down and driving or pilling up off the dribble and launching a 3-pointer. The only guy who was driving and dishing was Allen -- no coincidence that Duke's offense died when he went out.

-- Where was the 3-point defense? One thing Duke has done consistently on defense was missing in the first half.

I was hoping this game would be easy enough that Giles and Bolden would get extended minutes and a chance to get into the flow. Instead, it looks like we are going o have to fight for our lives. Duke still probably wins, but it's hard to see anything positive coming out of this. Even if it's a great second half for the Devils, the story line will be Grayson Allen trips again

Based on the game Monday and the first half tonight, this is not a top 25 Duke team. I'm not saying it won't be, but from what we've seen -- so far -- this week, it's not a very good team at the moment.

Oh well, hoping for better things in the second half ... see you guys after the game.

[Kjeffrey]

I imagine K is going to quickly get tired of talking about Grayson.

Then perhaps he should do something besides talk. I don't mean to question him but perhaps if he had sent a stronger message with some consequences last year this wouldn't still be happening.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I am frustrated that Harry Giles and Marques Bolden aren't playing instead of Chase Jeter.

I like Grayson's competitive edge. Laettner had it and he won two titles.

He may care too much about what the ESPN talking heads are going to say, which may have led to his outburst. That Elon guy was twisting his elbow, so I understand the visceral reaction of trying to get back at him. Stuff like that happens in all sports.

Really ugly first half, but it's not the end of the world. We'll be a different team by March.

As always, JMO.

Did Jeter play? I didn't think so.

[arnie]

Just a really dumb move. The guy has his arm hooked and pinned down but that doesn't matter. You just can't do that. I think the sideline meltdown was a case of being mad at himself but it won't be portrayed as that. The kid is going to get crucified. And if K plays him the second half he will get crucified too. We didn't need this especially with how we have played the last 3 halves... lots of one on one play or one pass for a three that doesn't go down

Edit: forgot to add... I would bet the house the ACC suspends him for the Va Tech game

Can't see ACC getting involved based on that play. If they do, lots of players get suspended this year. Of course if Allen repeats it, he's likely out for a game or more.

[jbay201]

we need grayson to stay focused on the game and play well in the 2nd half...maybe the santa ana kid was insulting his mother and gave him a subtle shot to the balls that we missed

can't let lesser players get under your skin

[Kjeffrey]

Did Jeter play? I didn't think so.

Yes he did. And I am wondering the same thing. Apparently Jeter has done something to earn time over Giles and Bolden. Can only imagine their frustration.

[jipops]

What we're seeing is a Duke team currently in the month of October and with no point guard. It is zero surprise the offense is comprised of one on one play. We're largely a team of ball dominant players.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

we need grayson to stay focused on the game and play well in the 2nd half...maybe the santa ana kid was insulting his mother and gave him a subtle shot to the balls that we missed

can't let lesser players get under your skin

There are no circumstances in which Grayson can lose his cool to that degree.

Allen should sit, and Duke needs better perimeter ball movement and faster closeouts on D. Let's show some grit.

[BLPOG]

Just a really dumb move. The guy has his arm hooked and pinned down but that doesn't matter. You just can't do that. I think the sideline meltdown was a case of being mad at himself but it won't be portrayed as that. The kid is going to get crucified. And if K plays him the second half he will get crucified too. We didn't need this especially with how we have played the last 3 halves... lots of one on one play or one pass for a three that doesn't go down

Edit: forgot to add... I would bet the house the ACC suspends him for the Va Tech game

Thanks for mentioning that the guy hooked him and pinned his arm, since I hadn't seen anyone else mention it yet and didn't want to be accused of being a Grayson apologist for bringing it up.

Grayson messed up here with his response big time, but I don't think that means people should ignore the what prompted it.

[SlapTheFloor]

I want to post here so I can vent, knowing the thread will be locked after the game.

-- The second was another useless appearance by Giles (and Bolden). Both appeared, but did nothing. I was hoping for a little progress,


Jesus Christ. The guy hasn't played basketball in over a year. You're not expecting progress. You're expecting a miracle.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Jesus Christ. The guy hasn't played basketball in over a year. You're not expecting progress. You're expecting a miracle.

LOL. Good point.

[WHOneedsSOX]

So was that the punishment? Not starting a half? Come on. Send a message coach.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Thanks for mentioning that the guy hooked him and pinned his arm, since I hadn't seen anyone else mention it yet and didn't want to be accused of being a Grayson apologist for bringing it up.

Grayson messed up here with his response big time, but I don't think that means people should ignore the what prompted it.

I disagree. I don't care what precedes it, with the microscope Grayson is under, he simply cannot make that egregious a mistake, and perhaps more importantly can't meltdown like that on TV.

Meanwhile, Tatum and Jones are playing great. A shame it won't even be remembered from this game.

[wavedukefan70s]

That guy from elons a punk.still doesn't excuse allens actions.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Tatum is playing fantastic.

[SlapTheFloor]

I don't think Grayson is a bad person, but he needs to learn to control his emotions on the court. If for no other reason, than, if the opposing team knows they can get in his head, they absolutely will. I had hoped maybe that sitting him for an extended period would finally nail that point home, but I'll trust that the coaching staff knows him and how to coach him better than I would.

[curtis325]

So was that the punishment? Not starting a half? Come on. Send a message coach.

I'm very disappointed to see grayson back in the game.

[MarkD83]

I disagree. I don't care what precedes it, with the microscope Grayson is under, he simply cannot make that egregious a mistake, and perhaps more importantly can't meltdown like that on TV.

Meanwhile, Tatum and Jones are playing great. A shame it won't even be remembered from this game.

I don't think their play is lost. They will continue to get better which will help

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I don't think Grayson is a bad person, but he needs to learn to control his emotions on the court. If for no other reason, than, if the opposing team knows they can get in his head, they absolutely will. I had hoped maybe that sitting him for an extended period would finally nail that point home, but I'll trust that the coaching staff knows him and how to coach him better than I would.

Yes. Opposing teams targeting his soft spots is a much bigger concern to me than media nonsense.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Passing and defense both MUCH improved in the second half. Hope it sticks for the next 14 minutes.

[Kjeffrey]

I'm very disappointed to see grayson back in the game.

Did he come in the game and then go right back out? I didn't see him play..

[BLPOG]

I disagree. I don't care what precedes it, with the microscope Grayson is under, he simply cannot make that egregious a mistake, and perhaps more importantly can't meltdown like that on TV.

Meanwhile, Tatum and Jones are playing great. A shame it won't even be remembered from this game.

So to be clear, you think that people should ignore what prompted it?

I didn't excuse Grayson Allen's actions, but if you're disagreeing with me that's what you're saying.

I can't really think of any situation in which people's actions are really judged in a vacuum. That is, in fact, why this situation is so bad - because of the context last season provides. Acknowledging context also doesn't prevent agreeing with the rest of what you said.

[BLPOG]

Yes. Opposing teams targeting his soft spots is a much bigger concern to me than media nonsense.

Agreed

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

So to be clear, you think that people should ignore what prompted it?

I didn't excuse Grayson Allen's actions, but if you're disagreeing with me that's what you're saying.

I can't really think of any situation in which people's actions are really judged in a vacuum. That is, in fact, why this situation is so bad - because of the context last season provides. Acknowledging context also doesn't prevent agreeing with the rest of what you said.

Yes, that is what I am saying.

[Kjeffrey]

Did he come in the game and then go right back out? I didn't see him play..

I see him now. No excuse for allowing him to play. Duke fans would have a field day if Calipari or Roy did the same thing.

[WHOneedsSOX]

I disagree. I don't care what precedes it, with the microscope Grayson is under, he simply cannot make that egregious a mistake, and perhaps more importantly can't meltdown like that on TV.

Meanwhile, Tatum and Jones are playing great. A shame it won't even be remembered from this game.

I agree although I don't really care too much about the meltdown as long as he was mad at himself and not the player of ref. I don't care if his arm got hooked. That happens all the time. The guy didn't hook his arm and throw him to the ground or do anything dirty. He tried to draw the foul by hooking his arm and just couldn't get it free right away. Doesn't excuse Allen at all for tripping the guy.

[Olympic Fan]

Jesus Christ. The guy hasn't played basketball in over a year. You're not expecting progress. You're expecting a miracle.

How can you read that into what I said.

I wanted to see PROGRESS. I would have been happy with one positive play (which Harry has delivered in the second half).

Harry played four minutes against Tennessee State and his only contribution was a missed shot. His three-four minute stint in the first half against Elon was almost exactly the same thing.

I not asking for a miracle ... I wanted to see one positive play.

[SlapTheFloor]

How can you read that into what I said.



You used "Giles" and "useless" in a sentence together. I think you were being unduly harsh on an 18-year-old kid who has just recovered from knee surgery.