Grayson Allen brings out the conspiracy theories

[DavidBenAkiva]

Sometimes, you really wonder if the whole world has gone mad. Here's some fun headlines from reputable sports websites this morning:

Duke's Grayson Allen Draws Foul Without Being Touched (http://deadspin.com/dukes-grayson-allen-draws-foul-without-being-touched-1790302074) [Deadspin]
Watch: Grayson Allen Draws Home Cooking With This "Foul" Call (http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/watch-grayson-allen-gets-some-home-cooking-with-this-foul-call/) [CBS Sports]
Duke's Grayson Allen Flopped So Hard That He Drew a Foul Without Anyone Touching Him (http://uproxx.com/sports/grayson-allen-flops-draws-foul/) [Uproxx]
Grayson Allen Doesn't Get Touched On This Foul Call in Win (http://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/18315837) [ESPN]

It should be obvious to anyone watching that the defender's leg most certainly does make contact with Allen's left foot while in the air. Sure, you could dispute whether this was worthy of a foul call. At the time, I thought the defender lifted his leg up and that it was a dirty play to clip Allen in mid-air. On second review, that doesn't appear to be the case. But at the very least, it is clear and obvious that Allen makes contact with the defender. And yet multiple websites decide to run with the story anyway. What is it about Grayson Allen that brings out the lunacy in people?

[killerleft]

Sometimes, you really wonder if the whole world has gone mad. Here's some fun headlines from reputable sports websites this morning:

Duke's Grayson Allen Draws Foul Without Being Touched (http://deadspin.com/dukes-grayson-allen-draws-foul-without-being-touched-1790302074) [Deadspin]
Watch: Grayson Allen Draws Home Cooking With This "Foul" Call (http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/watch-grayson-allen-gets-some-home-cooking-with-this-foul-call/) [CBS Sports]
Duke's Grayson Allen Flopped So Hard That He Drew a Foul Without Anyone Touching Him (http://uproxx.com/sports/grayson-allen-flops-draws-foul/) [Uproxx]
Grayson Allen Doesn't Get Touched On This Foul Call in Win (http://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/18315837) [ESPN]

It should be obvious to anyone watching that the defender's leg most certainly does make contact with Allen's left foot while in the air. Sure, you could dispute whether this was worthy of a foul call. At the time, I thought the defender lifted his leg up and that it was a dirty play to clip Allen in mid-air. On second review, that doesn't appear to be the case. But at the very least, it is clear and obvious that Allen makes contact with the defender. And yet multiple websites decide to run with the story anyway. What is it about Grayson Allen that brings out the lunacy in people?

Because the announcers went apeshot with it. I thought the defender made a clever touch on Allen's legs to throw him off-balance.

[DavidBenAkiva]

Because the announcers went apeshot with it. I thought the defender made a clever touch on Allen's legs to throw him off-balance.

Announcers miss calls all the time. In Doris Burke's defense, she rightly questioned the moving screen call against Amile Jefferson in the second half that prevented an open lop to Allen. So why did multiple websites decide to run this one missed call? There are scores of phantom fouls on any given night of basketball between the NBA and college hoops. Yet Allen is the one that gets this kind of freakout from the sports sites.

[BD80]

I think the issue is that it was Grayson's trailing foot that gets hit, he goes by the defender with no contact.

[DavidBenAkiva]

I think the issue is that it was Grayson's trailing foot that gets hit, he goes by the defender with no contact.

Maybe I am missing something, but isn't the foot getting hit the same exact thing as making contact? Is the foot not a part of his body?

[AtlBluRew]

The uproxx writer calls Allen "a young Ted Cruz."

Harsh.

[BD80]

Maybe I am missing something, but isn't the foot getting hit the same exact thing as making contact? Is the foot not a part of his body?

Sorry, that wasn't clear. Grayson gets most of his body past the defender without contact, in particular those areas of the body where contact would typically be considered a foul.

[DavidBenAkiva]

Sorry, that wasn't clear. Grayson gets most of his body past the defender without contact, in particular those areas of the body where contact would typically be considered a foul.

Ahh. Yeah. I see how one could watch the play and not notice the foot at first.

[sagegrouse]

Aw, it comes with being the most recognized college basketball player today. Publicity is usually good, and the stories spelled his name correctly. Doris Burke even says it correctly now, after calling him Alan Grayson (after the controversial FL congressman) in his first game last year.

[DukieTiger]

That the conspiracy theorists come out on a play where Duke would have scored anyways (easy Jeter outback) is all you need to know about how crazy Duke makes people.

[Lar77]

It's a foul. Clearly the leg touch threw him off and caused the miss. Grayson was getting hacked pretty good at times. In one sequence in the second half, he was hit 3 times before the foul was called. As Sagegrouse said, he is the most recognizable name on the most recognizable team.

This was a physical game, and the refs did a good job overall.

[FerryFor50]

It wasn't even that bad of a reaction. He lost his balance and fell. Then got up.

[SenatorClayDavis]

"Grayson Allen is a dirty flopper!" and "Video proof that refs are in the bag for Duke!" are wonderful click bait. This sort of thing will stop when people put fairness ahead of making money. When I see this nonsense, I just smile and crack another Indian Brown. Speaking of which...

[CDu]

It was a foul. It also appears to have been exaggerated by Allen. But it was a foul. Though I can see why TV folks missed it, as they were looking for contact in the usual places and not his trail leg.

[Jeffrey]

What is it about Grayson Allen that brings out the lunacy in people?

His history affects perceptions.

[jipops]

What has also not been pointed out is that Chase had a followup dunk on that play. So the foul actually took away the basket. If Grayson had not hit both free throws, I wonder if this would even be a story.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

...What is it about Grayson Allen that brings out the lunacy in people?

From a rival fan perspective, I'll tell you...it's his cumulative body of work.

Nobody in college basketball begs for a call more than Grayson. He snaps his head back so often at the hint of contact, contact that he usually initiates, that Duke must have a chiropractor for him on call after every game.

There should be a drinking game for every time he tries to sell a call. There'd be more drunks than on draft night drinking to "wingspan".

...with all due respect:)

[DukieInBrasil]

From a rival fan perspective, I'll tell you...it's his cumulative body of work.

Nobody in college basketball begs for a call more than Grayson. He snaps his head back so often at the hint of contact, contact that he usually initiates, that Duke must have a chiropractor for him on call after every game.

There should be a drinking game for every time he tries to sell a call. There'd be more drunks than on draft night drinking to "wingspan".

...with all due respect:)

I agree that the cumulative body of work does not work in Grayson's favor, but some of that cumulative body is the incessant replays of two events last year, both of which were immature reactions and neither of which caused anyone harm.
I also get annoyed with Grayson's attempts to sell fouls rather than actually make the play, which if he tried to make the play rather than sell the foul, something good might actually happen. It seems to be working against him this year too, since i've seen lots of obvious fouls not called. Then again, refs never call any game perfectly, it's just human nature.

[devildeac]

Maybe I am missing something, but isn't the foot getting hit the same exact thing as making contact? Is the foot not a part of his body?

Only if he's kicking/tripping folks with it. If he gets bumped while in mid-air forcing him to make an awkward/dangerous landing, then it's ok to those arseclowns who claim no/incidental contact. :mad:

[Billy Dat]

From a rival fan perspective, I'll tell you...it's his cumulative body of work.

Nobody in college basketball begs for a call more than Grayson. He snaps his head back so often at the hint of contact, contact that he usually initiates, that Duke must have a chiropractor for him on call after every game.

There should be a drinking game for every time he tries to sell a call. There'd be more drunks than on draft night drinking to "wingspan".

...with all due respect:)

There is a lot of truth here, and I think I found the Sanford Meisner of the craft
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4CMWPGrHiw

[MChambers]

From a rival fan perspective, I'll tell you...it's his cumulative body of work.

Nobody in college basketball begs for a call more than Grayson. He snaps his head back so often at the hint of contact, contact that he usually initiates, that Duke must have a chiropractor for him on call after every game.

There should be a drinking game for every time he tries to sell a call. There'd be more drunks than on draft night drinking to "wingspan".

...with all due respect:)

More than Hansbrough did?

[FerryFor50]

There is a lot of truth here, and I think I found the Sanford Meisner of the craft
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4CMWPGrHiw

Quality flop there.

After that video was a compilation, with this gem included:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNxiWES8G0o

[FerryFor50]

Quality flop there.

After that video was a compilation, with this gem included:


And this one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWh_bj5mprw

[devildeac]

There is a lot of truth here, and I think I found the Sanford Meisner of the craft
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4CMWPGrHiw

Here's another flopmeister at work:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJx9SRYTuHg

~6-1/180 PG "levels" ~6-9/250 C/PF who is clearly moving backward and to his right when karl "I'm the show" hess (?) makes the dramatic call.

[Jeffrey]

More than Hansbrough did?

No, Hansbrough kept Kleenex in business.

[BluDvlsN1]

His history affects perceptions.

True, along with the "Duke Dynamic", looking for
something, anything to show criticism, there is
so little to draw on.

[CDu]

His history affects perceptions.

Yup, a combination of his history in doing two dumb things last year and ESPN jumping down his throat for those things (interesting that Winslow got less grief for doing similar things).

[Wheat/"/"/"]

There is a lot of truth here, and I think I found the Sanford Meisner of the craft
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4CMWPGrHiw

I understand that the best, and only defense here is good offense...

We really don't want to get into a video flop war do we? It wouldn't end well for this thread.

Grayson is not the only player who sells a foul call, but he's at the top of his game there.

The refs have to be better at not buying that stuff. Contact is not always a foul in basketball.

I particularly hate it when any offensive player goes into the defenders chest at the rim, and the defender is sliding his feet and holding his position, to create some space or to hunt for a foul call...and the ref gives that call to the driver.

If contact starts with the offense, it should be a no call all day, or if particularly aggressive, a charge on the driver. Defenders should not be penalized in that situation.

[devildeac]

I understand that that best, and only defense here is good offense...

We really don't want to get into a video flop war do we? It wouldn't end well for this thread.

Grayson is not the only player who sells a foul call, but he's at the top of his game there.

The refs have to be better at not buying that stuff. Contact is not always a foul in basketball.

I particularly hate it when any offensive player goes into the defenders chest at the rim, and the defender is sliding his feet and holding his position, to create some space or to hunt for a foul call...and the ref gives that call to the driver.

If contact starts with the offense, it should be a no call all day, or if particularly aggressive, a charge on the driver. Defenders should not be penalized in that situation.

Huh?

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Huh?

To be clearer...

Defender is sliding with the driver, good defensive position, not giving an angle to the rim, and driver jumps into his chest to create space or hope to get the call and finish for an and 1.

Don't bail out the driver there when he initiates the contact.

It's a no call.

[brlftz]

To be clearer...

Defender is sliding with the driver, good defensive position, not giving an angle to the rim, and driver jumps into his chest to create space or hope to get the call and finish for an and 1.

Don't bail out the driver there when he initiates the contact.

It's a no call.

generally agree. drivers who suddenly change their angle of attack in order to initiate contact shouldn't get the call as frequently as they do. there was one play last night where it looked like Grayson was going to pull the bulldozer play, and instead pulled up for a jumper from the free throw line. loved it, and think that's the key for him if he wants to get rolling again. at this point everyone is expecting him to plow into people, and refs aren't giving him that call anymore.

[killerleft]

From a rival fan perspective, I'll tell you...it's his cumulative body of work.

Nobody in college basketball begs for a call more than Grayson. He snaps his head back so often at the hint of contact, contact that he usually initiates, that Duke must have a chiropractor for him on call after every game.

There should be a drinking game for every time he tries to sell a call. There'd be more drunks than on draft night drinking to "wingspan".

...with all due respect:)

Cute. Show me a player who doesn't sell fouls and I'll show you a player who isn't good at the game. It's been this way since, well, basketball. Grayson's very good at the game, by the way. Perhaps this is what bothers you about Grayson.

[Jeffrey]

(interesting that Winslow got less grief for doing similar things).

Very true.... much less grief!

[BD80]

To be clearer...

Defender is sliding with the driver, good defensive position, not giving an angle to the rim, and driver jumps into his chest to create space or hope to get the call and finish for an and 1.

Don't bail out the driver there when he initiates the contact.

It's a no call.

Once you've stepped into the muck, it's pretty tough to climb up to the high road.

[Jeffrey]

Once you've stepped into the muck, it's pretty tough to climb up to the high road.

Why are you discussing politicians and UNC?

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Cute. Show me a player who doesn't sell fouls and I'll show you a player who isn't good at the game. It's been this way since, well, basketball. Grayson's very good at the game, by the way. Perhaps this is what bothers you about Grayson.

Yes, all players will try to sell a foul at times. Part of the game.

As you point out, he's a very good player and my point would be that he really doesn't need to beg for calls as much as he does, it's unbecoming of a player with his talent.

[jipops]

From a rival fan perspective, I'll tell you...it's his cumulative body of work.

Nobody in college basketball begs for a call more than Grayson. He snaps his head back so often at the hint of contact, contact that he usually initiates, that Duke must have a chiropractor for him on call after every game.

There should be a drinking game for every time he tries to sell a call. There'd be more drunks than on draft night drinking to "wingspan".

...with all due respect:)

Well if the major part of Grayson's game is indeed trying to "sell" it, he's not doing a very good job. He doesn't even rank in the top 100 in either ft attempts per game or per minute. However freshman Tony Bradley currently ranks 22nd in ft attempts per minute. Hmmm...

[Billy Dat]

I understand that the best, and only defense here is good offense...

We really don't want to get into a video flop war do we? It wouldn't end well for this thread.

Grayson is not the only player who sells a foul call, but he's at the top of his game there.

Tyus was ready to take the art form to a new level but he was called to the L.

His specialty was the head cock, ala Seinfeld's Kramer getting spit at...back, and to the left

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feqmemnOzeY

[devildeac]

To be clearer...

Defender is sliding with the driver, good defensive position, not giving an angle to the rim, and driver jumps into his chest to create space or hope to get the call and finish for an and 1.

Don't bail out the driver there when he initiates the contact.

It's a no call.

I'll go along with the half of that if the O jumps into the D, initiating contact, then it's a no call or a charge. If the defender's still moving, by definition/rule, it's a blocking foul, unless the offensive player sticks out a forearm creating space/clearing out/gaining an advantage.

[DavidBenAkiva]

I understand that the best, and only defense here is good offense...

We really don't want to get into a video flop war do we? It wouldn't end well for this thread.

Grayson is not the only player who sells a foul call, but he's at the top of his game there.

The refs have to be better at not buying that stuff. Contact is not always a foul in basketball.

I particularly hate it when any offensive player goes into the defenders chest at the rim, and the defender is sliding his feet and holding his position, to create some space or to hunt for a foul call...and the ref gives that call to the driver.

If contact starts with the offense, it should be a no call all day, or if particularly aggressive, a charge on the driver. Defenders should not be penalized in that situation.

True, contact is not always a foul. But let's refocus here. Why are there multiple websites disputing even that there was contact despite video evidence that they posted on their site? I'm just sick of the narrative. It's gone too far. We've gone from "Duke gets all the calls" to disputing reality.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I'll go along with the half of that if the O jumps into the D, initiating contact, then it's a no call or a charge. If the defender's still moving, by definition/rule, it's a blocking foul, unless the offensive player sticks out a forearm creating space/clearing out/gaining an advantage.

A defender has a right to his space, even if he's moving...that's my argument in the situation described.

If at any time defender slides into the driver, initiating the contact, yes that's a foul all day.

Often we see a small guard get into a defenders chest to "create space". I'm ok with that. I like players who challenge other players to score, and if the offense can finish that play by getting the defender off balance without crossing the line into a charge call, cool, it should be a no call.

Just don't bail out that driver with a foul call when the driver starts the contact.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

True, contact is not always a foul. But let's refocus here. Why are there multiple websites disputing even that there was contact despite video evidence that they posted on their site? I'm just sick of the narrative. It's gone too far. We've gone from "Duke gets all the calls" to disputing reality.

That play...

Some light contact by Grayson with the foot after getting by the defender, who was straight up.

At what point does the driver, (Grayson),have to maintain control of his body there? Defender was not challenging the play and Grayson was...and a little out of control.

Should have been a easy no call.

[ChillinDuke]

A defender has a right to his space, even if he's moving...that's my argument in the situation described.

If at any time defender slides into the driver, initiating the contact, yes that's a foul all day.

Often we see a small guard get into a defenders chest to "create space". I'm ok with that. I like players who challenge other players to score, and if the offense can finish that play by getting the defender off balance without crossing the line into a charge call, cool, it should be a no call.

Just don't bail out that driver with a foul call when the driver starts the contact.

I agree with Wheat on this. Defenders have the same right to the same space. There is a nuance here to what DD is saying. DD, I think, is talking about an advantage situation where an offensive player makes a move into unclaimed space and makes contact with a moving defender. Defensive foul. All day.

Wheat, on the other hand, is talking about an offensive player making a move into "claimed" space held by a defender. Too often, IMO, that is called a foul on the defender, under the logic (perhaps agreeable to DD) that the defender was moving. But if the defender was in the space, regardless of whether his feet are "set" or "not quite set," it should be deemed his right to have that space. No call. IMO.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Grayson Allen: Friend or Foe debate...

- Chillin

[ChillinDuke]

That play...

Some light contact by Grayson with the foot after getting by the defender, who was straight up.

At what point does the driver, (Grayson),have to maintain control of his body there? Defender was not challenging the play and Grayson was...and a little out of control.

Should have been a easy no call.

Agreed with you in my last post, disagree here. That was clearly Grayson's space - let alone his space as a shooter. He "won" that space. First come, first serve. The defender now must not interrupt the shot via contact in any way, shape, or form.

He did. Defensive foul. All day.

Body control? What? I mean if Grayson ran into a space that was arguably held by a defender, I could see where you're going with that. But Grayson was so clearly advantaged there, and he was shooting. You can't make contact with him in that scenario. Especially when in the act of shooting.

- Chillin

[DukieInBrasil]

That play...

Some light contact by Grayson with the foot after getting by the defender, who was straight up.

At what point does the driver, (Grayson),have to maintain control of his body there? Defender was not challenging the play and Grayson was...and a little out of control.

Should have been a easy no call.

sorry, but the defender was moving, which is why he made contact with Grayson's foot. Grayson was in no way out of control, unless you think that every driving layup ever is "out of control". Grayson made a normal basketball play for a layup, he wasn't going sideways, he did not jump out of his way to hit somebody, he went strait at the rim and as the defender moved past and behind him he hit grazed Grayson's foot. That it was minor contact is not the question, but to say that the defender was either strait up or that Grayson was out of control is plain old wrong.
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=18315111

[Ichabod Drain]

A defender has a right to his space, even if he's moving...that's my argument in the situation described.

If at any time defender slides into the driver, initiating the contact, yes that's a foul all day.



Looks to me like they hit each other bout the same time....

[devildeac]

I agree with Wheat on this. Defenders have the same right to the same space. There is a nuance here to what DD is saying. DD, I think, is talking about an advantage situation where an offensive player makes a move into unclaimed space and makes contact with a moving defender. Defensive foul. All day.

Wheat, on the other hand, is talking about an offensive player making a move into "claimed" space held by a defender. Too often, IMO, that is called a foul on the defender, under the logic (perhaps agreeable to DD) that the defender was moving. But if the defender was in the space, regardless of whether his feet are "set" or "not quite set," it should be deemed his right to have that space. No call. IMO.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Grayson Allen: Friend or Foe debate...

- Chillin

50 Shades of Gray(son). I'm fine with the nuances.

I'm not fine with a defender making contact with Grayson (or any player) while he's in the air and vulnerable. To insinuate that Grayson was out of control/initiated contact in this situation is laughable/deplorable, but look who/what we're dealing with here. As DavidBenAkiva stated, "now we're debating/questioning/disputing reality" here, or however he so nicely posted it.

[Channing]

1. can anyone explain to me how any of this is Grayson's fault (I'll add, the foul call negated a VERY easy put-back on the missed layup)?
2. there was a similarly blatantly bad call on Amile that was also pointed out. The refs make bad calls periodically. It happens. I would venture if you watch most top 5 teams play, they are getting the lions share of the calls and the benefits of the doubts.

[ChillinDuke]

50 Shades of Gray(son). I'm fine with the nuances.

I'm not fine with a defender making contact with Grayson (or any player) while he's in the air and vulnerable. To insinuate that Grayson was out of control/initiated contact in this situation is laughable/deplorable, but look who/what we're dealing with here. As DavidBenAkiva stated, "now we're debating/questioning/disputing reality" here, or however he so nicely posted it.

Agree completely. That was a defensive foul, unquestionable.

- Chillin

[Owen Meany]

That play...

Some light contact by Grayson with the foot after getting by the defender, who was straight up.

At what point does the driver, (Grayson),have to maintain control of his body there? Defender was not challenging the play and Grayson was...and a little out of control.

Should have been a easy no call.

The "straight up" defender absolutely moved and hit Allen, who was going straight to the goal. He intentionally spun around Allen rather than stand still. He clipped the back leg of an airborne player who was going full-speed straight towards the goal. Clipping an airborne player is a dangerous play and a foul by any definition. There was absolutely nothing to suggest that Allen was even a little bit out of control until the contact.

I think your interpretation of the play was heavily influenced by your UNC allegiance. Just as you used to be bothered by T Jones kicking out his legs on jump shots, but had nothing to say when Page did the exact same thing with regularity.

[DavidBenAkiva]

That play...

Some light contact by Grayson with the foot after getting by the defender, who was straight up.

At what point does the driver, (Grayson),have to maintain control of his body there? Defender was not challenging the play and Grayson was...and a little out of control.

Should have been a easy no call.

Sure, it was light contact, but at least you agree that the video shows there was contact. And I don't have a problem with someone looking at the situation and believing it wasn't a foul. I'm not so sure it deserved a call anyway. The purpose of this thread wasn't to dispute the foul call. Foul calls are judgement calls. But can we talk about the multiple websites that are disputing that there was even something to dispute?

[DavidBenAkiva]

I thought Mike DeCourcy's take (http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/news/grayson-allen-flop-fast-break-layup-video-duke-tennessee-state-foul-harry-giles/1soi0643mebo81mh3udyx5zy1o) on this whole incident to be accurate.

"Now, though, anything he does is viewed by many fans and analysts through a fun-house mirror. His acts are being distorted to an astonishing degree."

I'm just glad that I'm not the only one that sees this happening.

[Indoor66]

I thought Mike DeCourcy's take (http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/news/grayson-allen-flop-fast-break-layup-video-duke-tennessee-state-foul-harry-giles/1soi0643mebo81mh3udyx5zy1o) on this whole incident to be accurate.

"Now, though, anything he does is viewed by many fans and analysts through a fun-house mirror. His acts are being distorted to an astonishing degree."

I'm just glad that I'm not the only one that sees this happening.

When did the discussion turn to politics?

[jv001]

More than Hansbrough did?

Personally I liked Hanstravel's flop when Gerald Henderson drove the lane :cool: I always consider the source when posts like Wheat's come up. It's part of the Carolina way. GoDuke!

[Indoor66]

Personally I liked Hanstravel's flop when Gerald Henderson drove the lane :cool: I always consider the source when posts like Wheat's come up. It's part of the CaroW.H.ina way. GoDuke!

FIFY

[OZ]

I also get annoyed with Grayson's attempts to sell fouls rather than actually make the play, which if he tried to make the play rather than sell the foul, something good might actually happen. It seems to be working against him this year too, since i've seen lots of obvious fouls not called.

Having for years been a high school ref and having known some good college refs, I can assure you that a "good" ref pays absolutely no attention to any of the theatrics or the media hype. They call what they see when they see it. Granted, some players are better than others at attempting to "sell" their foul, but IMO, there are few cases, when such showmanship actually influences a call. All this hype about Grayson "selling fouls" infers that refs are so inept that they can't figure this out and are easily fooled. I can assure you, that is rarely the case. This is more media/fan bias/BS than fact based conversation. It makes for a good storyline.
There are reasons why a lot of this attention is focused upon Duke... we saw some of these in ESPN's "Fab Five." I can recall a time, when all of our players could have faked calls at the same time and no one would have noticed! IMHO, it is much more enjoyable to be a booed/maligned winner than a cheered for popular loser. After this year, Grayson will fade away into the historic corridors of Duke's Hall Of Villains and someone will be anointed to take his place; and we will be having the same conversation and Wheat will still be playing his drinking games.

[toughbuff1]

I always go to this forum when I see people complaining about Duke getting calls to get a mostly unbiased point of view. There are a few people who admittedly hate Duke there, but these are all refs, so in general they are pretty neutral (and have the added benefit of slo-mo instant replay). Most of these guys agree it was a great call.

https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/101983-tennessee-state-duke-play-video-2.html

[Pghdukie]

I am fairly certain that this game may rank as the WORST televised bball game I've seen in years. The camera crew/director even missed a Jefferson free throw all together. The camera work was pathetic and the director was worse. Not very good graphics/stats displayed on screen either.
Had tv crew been up to standards, they would have got Allen's foot being pushed among other missed opportunities.
A very POOR performance by the mother ship called ESPN

[MrPoon]

This may be off base but was Burke even at the game? I don't recall ESPN ever showing her with some timeout shot and she was on Sportscenter before the game and on SVP after. If she's not there, she only has the tv feed we all have and the lack of a good replay only excentuates the questionable coverage. Anyone know if this is common place, covering a game without being there? They showed Jeff Goodman on the sideline but I think that was it.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Grayson has some fantastic aspects to his game; I love his grit and his toughness and his sheer will at time to get the ball in the basket.

But, if you don't see a grain of truth in Wheat's analysis of Allen's game, your goggles are a bit too tinted. Grayson - especially earlier in the season when he seems to be taking on too much himself - has a tendency to fling himself into traffic, look for the whistle, and then act demonstrative if it doesn't go his way. There's not much that's charming about that sort of basketball.

Additionally, at risk of repeating myself, I find most of the "meta-discussion" about what the press says about our players to be beneath what I'm interested in commenting on. I know I'm in the minority, so I will respectfully bow out of this thread. Besides, there's SO many other positive topics and discussions to be had, I'm sure you won't miss me one iota.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Many will disagree with me here, but my response is, who cares? If Grayson was legitimately fouled, then he got the call. If he wasn't and Grayson flopped, so what? Flopping is part of the game. Every player, including many Duke players who are great at taking charges, act with some sort of "flop-itude". It's one of many strategies that work, even if it isn't liked by many fans.

In conclusion:
1) Congrats Grayson on getting the refs to blow a whistle on the opponent (although I kinda wished you made the lay-up)
2) I don't have a problem with flopping as it's part of the game
3) At least Grayson didn't trip anyone

[atoomer0881]

I always go to this forum when I see people complaining about Duke getting calls to get a mostly unbiased point of view. There are a few people who admittedly hate Duke there, but these are all refs, so in general they are pretty neutral (and have the added benefit of slo-mo instant replay). Most of these guys agree it was a great call.

https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/101983-tennessee-state-duke-play-video-2.html

Thanks for sharing this forum! Really interesting to see their points of view. I look forward to referencing them again in the future now to combat all the Duke haters.

[alteran]

From a rival fan perspective, I'll tell you...it's his cumulative body of work.

Nobody in college basketball begs for a call more than Grayson. He snaps his head back so often at the hint of contact, contact that he usually initiates, that Duke must have a chiropractor for him on call after every game.

There should be a drinking game for every time he tries to sell a call. There'd be more drunks than on draft night drinking to "wingspan".

...with all due respect:)

He isn't the only person in this thread with a cumulative body of work.

[Indoor66]

He isn't the only person in this thread with a cumulative body of work.

BaBaBa BOOM!

[BD80]

Gotlieb is defending the call on Twitter (sort of, uses quotes around "foul")

It's over

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Agreed with you in my last post, disagree here. That was clearly Grayson's space - let alone his space as a shooter. He "won" that space. First come, first serve. The defender now must not interrupt the shot via contact in any way, shape, or form.

He did. Defensive foul. All day.

Body control? What? I mean if Grayson ran into a space that was arguably held by a defender, I could see where you're going with that. But Grayson was so clearly advantaged there, and he was shooting. You can't make contact with him in that scenario. Especially when in the act of shooting.

- Chillin

I viewed that play as incidental contact, there's contact on shooters all the time where it's a no call.

I just didn't see where a foul should have been called there.

The history of Duke shooter leg kicks probably factors into some of the perception of Duke begging for calls too.

[Pghdukie]

IIRC, when Duke played in China a few yrs ago - there were no tv people present. Gottlieb and another called the game from Bristol on a 5 second time delay. TV feed was picked up from a local Chinese outlet. As an earlier poster pointed out - maybe there were only cameras and Goodman.

[kshepinthehouse]

I viewed that play as incidental contact, there's contact on shooters all the time where it's a no call.

I just didn't see where a foul should have been called there.

The history of Duke shooter leg kicks probably factors into some of the perception of Duke begging for calls too.

"Incidental" is not a determinate in whether a foul is called or not. Wouldn't a lot of fouls be incidental?

[OZ]

He isn't the only person in this thread with a cumulative body of work.


That post will keep you on Santa's "nice" list.

[OZ]

I viewed that play as incidental contact, there's contact on shooters all the time where it's a no call.

I just didn't see where a foul should have been called there.

The history of Duke shooter leg kicks probably factors into some of the perception of Duke begging for calls too.


My goodness, Santa's going to have to bring you a sled load of cheese to go with all that "whining."

[WiJoe]

My goodness, Santa's going to have to bring you a sled load of cheese to go with all that "whining."

ALWAYS consider the source

[OldPhiKap]

I am in the minority I guess, I don't call a foul if I am the ref. While I would not call it a flop, I would call it Grayson's usual throw-your-whole-body-somewhere style.

[Duke79UNLV77]

My goodness, Santa's going to have to bring you a sled load of cheese to go with all that "whining."

Don't feed the troll. Still like the idea of a separate Wheat thread so he doesn't hijack every thread every time there is an opportunity for negative Duke posts. A simple comment on this play is fine. But, we now have pages on broad anti-Duke snipes. I don't want to get into tit for tat with the video of seller running through an imaginary spider web against us. Suffice it to say players sell calls; they likely learn it mostly from watching the NBA, not Duke or UNC, there was contact in this play, and it was a judgment call on whether to blow the whistle.

[CDu]

I am in the minority I guess, I don't call a foul if I am the ref. While I would not call it a flop, I would call it Grayson's usual throw-your-whole-body-somewhere style.

I am not far from your view. I think it was a foul, but could certainly accept a no-call. And I definitely think Allen embellished.

[OldPhiKap]

I am not far from your view. I think it was a foul, but could certainly accept a no-call. And I definitely think Allen embellished.

I can accept that too.

[g-money]

I enjoy the discussion about the foul call, but to address the OP's question directly, the reasons Grayson brings out conspiracy theories are that (as has been discussed in multiple threads):

1) He's white
2) He's really good at basketball
3) He plays for Duke
4) He's had the audacity to stay in college for three years

Personally, I feel that Grayson gets less love from the refs than anyone else on the team. It's like watching Jeremy Lin playing for the Hornets. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvaM0pMj-8o)

[-bdbd]

I am in the minority I guess, I don't call a foul if I am the ref. While I would not call it a flop, I would call it Grayson's usual throw-your-whole-body-somewhere style.

I had a similar thought watching live -- not a call I would have made, but there definitely was foot contact. I was immediately incensed at the obviously inobservent announcer missing the very visible contact. But I knew someone outside would make a big deal, even though Duke got no real benefit from it (we were going to score anyway). I actually saw it as a (marginal) "anticipation" call by the ref, expecting more contact.

But, yeah, waiting for somebody to put together a video of non-called fouls against GA to use as counter fodder whenever this silliness crops up...

[djp10]

even the slightest contact when running full speed + taking off to jump will throw your balance off significantly. clearly Grayson had a reaction when he landed (again, a nudge will throw you off like you were shoved). it wasn't a flop and could easily have not been called (given it was likely hard to discern at full speed for the ref); glad it was though.

[killerleft]

even the slightest contact when running full speed + taking off to jump will throw your balance off significantly. clearly Grayson had a reaction when he landed (again, a nudge will throw you off like you were shoved). it wasn't a flop and could easily have not been called (given it was likely hard to discern at full speed for the ref); glad it was though.

I'm with you on this one. He's vulnerable, moving faster than lightning.:p The foul was legitimate. If the game announcers would have actually looked at the play during the replay instead of ranting, there would be no controversy at all. Grayson stumbles or falls on some of his dunks when no one is around. He gets mauled all game long. Benefit of the doubt on the acting job from me.

[mike88]

even the slightest contact when running full speed + taking off to jump will throw your balance off significantly. clearly Grayson had a reaction when he landed (again, a nudge will throw you off like you were shoved). it wasn't a flop and could easily have not been called (given it was likely hard to discern at full speed for the ref); glad it was though.

I was sitting in the northeast corner of Cameron, and Grayson was coming right towards me on this play. I have to say, watching it in real-time, my biggest surprise was that he didn't throw down a massive dunk. I didn't see the contact in real-time, but I assumed he must have been clipped, keeping him from elevating as he would normally. I bet the referee decided the same thing.

[BD80]

I believe that everyone seems to be missing the critical issue here, the brilliance of the coaching staff to teach Grayson the "trailing leg sideways foot whip" to draw contact with a stationary defender as you fly by for a lay-up. I imagine that Grayson is the only one to master the skill enough to use it in a game to date, but just wait until the whole team employs the maneuver!

[OldPhiKap]

Disappointing T tonight, and worse reaction afterwards.

That's all I will say.

[BD80]

Disappointing T tonight, and worse reaction afterwards.

That's all I will say.

Embarrassing.

Kid needs help controlling his emotions.

Maybe have him cut out ALL negative reactions to calls or contact. He can't draw a line, so cold turkey.

[Reilly]

Disappointing T tonight, and worse reaction afterwards.

That's all I will say.

Many others will say so much more. This time the commentary will be more deserved.

K's seen it all -- hope he fashions a good ending here, as he has many other times with other challenges.

[sagegrouse]

Channel Christian Laettner, who actively campaigned to be declared "the most hated player in college basketball."

Grayson outghta say, "Yep, I'm the dirtiest player in college hoops!" What does he have to lose?

[mgtr]

I am concerned about what happens next. Nothing good, I fear.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Jay Williams calling for the ACC to take action on Twitter.

[OldPhiKap]

Channel Christian Laettner, who actively campaigned to be declared "the most hated player in college basketball."

Grayson outghta say, "Yep, I'm the dirtiest player in college hoops!" What does he have to lose?

"Little Lambeer"

[sagegrouse]

Jay Williams calling for the ACC to take action on Twitter.

Jay is tweeting about Grayson's trip in the FSU game last year.

[miramar]

"The ACC should suspend him for five games."

"I was disappointed that he played in the second half."

(Not exact quotes from UK-Louisville halftime, but close enough.)

Dude, seems harsh.

[moonpie23]

Jay calling for a 5 game suspension....

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Well, clearly another stern talking to isn't the answer.

[OldPhiKap]

"The ACC should suspend him for five games."

"I was disappointed that he played in the second half."

(Not exact quotes from UK-Louisville halftime, but close enough.)

Dude, seems harsh.

Jay knows what it is like to represent our university. Harsh, but I see from whence he comes.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Jay knows what it is like to represent our university. Harsh, but I see from whence he comes.

And understands the importance of the Duke brand.

[CameronBornAndBred]

"The ACC should suspend him for five games."

"I was disappointed that he played in the second half."

(Not exact quotes from UK-Louisville halftime, but close enough.)

Dude, seems harsh.

I was both surprised and disappointed he hit the court in the second, but happy he at least started on the bench. Obviously K's choice, but a rare one that I disagreed with tonight.

[Volunteer Duke]

Grayson is being hit hard for something pretty benign. He is one of us and a champion. He deserves our support and loyalty.

Young kids sometimes make mistakes in the heat of the moment. That said, he wasn't even ejected. It's a complete non-issue to me.

[CDu]

Some guys just can't consistently channel their emotions to the positive. So it appears to be the case with Allen. Disappointing to say the least. Hopefully someone can get him dialed in to stop this from happening again. He is too talented to be doing this stuff.

[Wander]

I was both surprised and disappointed he hit the court in the second, but happy he at least started on the bench. Obviously K's choice, but a rare one that I disagreed with tonight.

Honest question - how many examples can we think of when a college basketball coach chose mid-game to sit a player for disciplinary reasons due to a foul for which the player was already assessed a tech?

[OldPhiKap]

Hope this link effort works:

https://twitter.com/adam_smithtn/status/811740804284825601

[Bob Green]

That said, he wasn't even ejected. It's a complete non-issue to me.

I believe you are under reacting. This has happened three times over two seasons. Grayson needs to be held accountable for his unacceptable actions. Fix it now before it becomes a real problem.

[Kjeffrey]

Well, clearly another stern talking to isn't the answer.

A student at my school once told our assistant principal, "I've had your consequences and they aren't so bad." Seems fitting in this situation.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Hope this link effort works:

https://twitter.com/adam_smithtn/status/811740804284825601

Probably a very smart move by the staff.

[TKG]

Grayson is being hit hard for something pretty benign. He is one of us and a champion. He deserves our support and loyalty.

Young kids sometimes make mistakes in the heat of the moment. That said, he wasn't even ejected. It's a complete non-issue to me.

GA is a captain and upperclassman. As such, he is supposed to demonstrate leadership and maturity. Tonight he did neither. This is his third offense and, in my opinion, does not qualify as a kid's mistake.

[Kjeffrey]

GA is a captain and upperclassman. As such, he is supposed to demonstrate leadership and maturity. To isn't he did neither. This is is third offense and, in my opinion, does not qualify a kid's mistake.

Well said. And I can only I imagine what Duke fans would say if a Carolina player had done the same thing.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I feel bad for the kid. He has so much talent, but his immaturity gets the best of him. If he takes anything like his current attitude to the NBA he'll get planted by one of those men.

He has to learn to put his head down and just play. Stop trying to sell any calls. Eyes straight ahead at all times and just play. Focus.

When he came back in the second half the first thing he did was try to sell a charge call that the ref didn't bite on and called him for a block. He has to stop that crap to be the player he is capable of.

I have great respect for coach K, but he's guilty of enabling that behavior by not cracking down on it the past few years. By putting him back in that second half proves that point.

The trip wasn't aggressive, just an act of frustration. He's not a dirty player, to me. Just a whinner. Not sure why he was so frustrated, but that's how I viewed it, as frustration.

I think coach K should suspend him for two games...ones not enough and threes too many.

Come back and just play ball, kid..Jeeze..

[weezie]

Probably a very smart move by the staff.

Well sure, he apologized to the Elon player and coach.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Well sure, he apologized to the Elon player and coach.

Did he? Hope that is true. The linked tweet simply says...


Grayson Allen led out of the Duke locker room before it opens for interviews. Taken across the hall to a private room for the Duke coaches.

[Indoor66]

I don't care for his action but he did not commit a felony, for crying out loud.

[cbarry]

I actually thought it wasn't intentional-- he was losing his balance and used his leg to regain balance. People are making it a much bigger deal than it is.

[weezie]

Did he? Hope that is true. The linked tweet simply says...

Keep reading, santa ana and elon coach then entered room then everybody left.

[MCFinARL]

I feel bad for the kid. He has so much talent, but his immaturity gets the best of him. If he takes anything like his current attitude to the NBA he'll get planted by one of those men.

He has to learn to put his head down and just play. Stop trying to sell any calls. Eyes straight ahead at all times and just play. Focus.

When he came back in the second half the first thing he did was try to sell a charge call that the ref didn't bite on and called him for a block. He has to stop that crap to be the player he is capable of.

I have great respect for coach K, but he's guilty of enabling that behavior by not cracking down on it the past few years. By putting him back in that second half proves that point.

The trip wasn't aggressive, just an act of frustration. He's not a dirty player, to me. Just a whinner. Not sure why he was so frustrated, but that's how I viewed it, as frustration.

I think coach K should suspend him for two games...ones not enough and threes too many.

Come back and just play ball, kid..Jeeze..

I agree with a lot of this--though I think his almost-out-of-control game, against stronger, more skilled NBA players, is likely to get him planted sooner than his attitude.

I actually thought the call in the the second half was a bad call--I thought Grayson was set before the contact--but that foul call was the price for what went earlier. Experienced stars sometimes get the benefit of the doubt on calls, but when you have Grayson's reputation, the opposite is more likely to happen.

Reserving judgment on your "enabling" claim until I see what happens. While I might have preferred that Grayson not go back into the game, I can see an argument that the coaching staff needs time to reflect before acting--and he did not start the second half, even though Coach K virtually always inserts his starting lineup at the beginning of the second half.

[Kjeffrey]

I feel bad for the kid. He has so much talent, but his immaturity gets the best of him. If he takes anything like his current attitude to the NBA he'll get planted by one of those men.

He has to learn to put his head down and just play. Stop trying to sell any calls. Eyes straight ahead at all times and just play. Focus.

When he came back in the second half the first thing he did was try to sell a charge call that the ref didn't bite on and called him for a block. He has to stop that crap to be the player he is capable of.

I have great respect for coach K, but he's guilty of enabling that behavior by not cracking down on it the past few years. By putting him back in that second half proves that point.

The trip wasn't aggressive, just an act of frustration. He's not a dirty player, to me. Just a whinner. Not sure why he was so frustrated, but that's how I viewed it, as frustration.

I think coach K should suspend him for two games...ones not enough and threes too many.

Come back and just play ball, kid..Jeeze..

In the post game presser K just said Grayson was punished. So I am guessing not starting the second half was the punishment. If so, then K is enabling his behavior. It is the third time. IMO, he more than deserves a suspension.

[dbcooper]

I don't care for his action but he did not commit a felony, for crying out loud.
Some one call PJ:confused::confused:

[CameronBornAndBred]

Keep reading, santa ana and elon coach then entered room then everybody left.

Very cool. An even smarter move.

[duketaylor]

As a former Duke player (yes, golf, not hoops) and All-Am I hold myself to a very high standard; I do not tolerate such conduct. I think a 4-game suspension is in order. Lesson needs to be taught. Anger management treatment as well. One on my sons told me about the tripping and he has had anger-management issues as well and we talked about it tonight. He's gotten better, but I told him what GA was completely wrong and he agreed. I hope K will address it appropriately.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Snippet from the post game recap.


Duke: Freshman Jayson Tatum looked sharp from the start with 18 points, but Allen's trip of Santa Ana hung over this one. The ACC reprimanded Allen last season for tripping Florida State's Xavier Rathan-Mayes in a game, which came roughly two weeks after Allen received a flagrant foul for tripping Louisville's Ray Spalding.
I don't see the ACC not suspending Grayson considering the front office already took action against last year for the same thing. Really bad timing with us starting ACC play for our next game. It's a home game. IF Grayson is suspended, is he even allowed on the bench in street clothes?

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/no-5-duke-beats-elon-72-61-in-final-game-before-acc-play/16361305/#82YcxMAc55bQsJHc.99

[cruxer]

I actually thought it wasn't intentional-- he was losing his balance and used his leg to regain balance. People are making it a much bigger deal than it is.

I've been a Duke fan for 20 years but I simply can't give Grayson the benefit of the doubt on this. No way that an official or opponent would. If it quacks like a duck....

His negative reaction was possibly even worse for the team than the trip. He's a captain. He has to act like it at all times. I wouldn't be surprised if coach sat him for a spell to reinforce this notion.

[Doria]

Channel Christian Laettner, who actively campaigned to be declared "the most hated player in college basketball."

Grayson outghta say, "Yep, I'm the dirtiest player in college hoops!" What does he have to lose?

I understand this sentiment, since I don't really think Grayson has gotten a fair response, in line with other--often much worse and dirtier--players.

But while I still think the response is a bit overblown from the media (I'm okay with discipline by the team), he needs to put a rest to this behavior if he can. He isn't Laettner and, from what I can see, he doesn't feed off the response. I believe it comes from a similar, hyper competitive place, but to me, there's more difference than similarity in their personalities. He can surely see that it isn't helping his team, and I don't think it's something he enjoys. It's really hard to eliminate our flaws sometimes, because they're often tied to our virtues. But I think he'll be happier if he can learn to break this seemingly reflexive occasional reaction.

I don't think this is a capital crime or even the worst play in a given CBB week. But it's a distraction, and I think he should work to eliminate it, if he can. It shouldn't define him; but at a certain point, if one keeps engaging in the negative behavior it becomes, for all intents and purposes, at least a part of who one is.

[Brockt10]

While I like Grayson and think he is a great competitor, basketball player, and probably person....he needs some sort of help. There is more to this than Grayson's playing time. I hope k and Duke take the appropriate action to uphold the Duke name but, more importantly, hope they help Grayson with whatever he needs to become the player we all know he is capable of being. Sometimes tough love is the best love though.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

As a former Duke player (yes, golf, not hoops) and All-Am I hold myself to a very high standard; I do not tolerate such conduct. I think a 4-game suspension is in order. Lesson needs to be taught. Anger management treatment as well. One on my sons told me about the tripping and he has had anger-management issues as well and we talked about it tonight. He's gotten better, but I told him what GA was completely wrong and he agreed. I hope K will address it appropriately.

I just saw coach K's post game comments and of course he said all the right things but to me he came across as only saying the bare minimum.

He even said, "let's move on". I don't think he's willing to accept the gravity of Grayson's actions, (at this time), that the media seems to want to embrace.

The media is going to go overboard on this.

[miramar]

1. Blue Devils coach Mike Krzyzewski said that after the game -- a 72-61 Duke win -- Allen apologized to Santa Ana and Elon coach Mike Matheny in a meeting between the four. "What happened was unacceptable," Krzyzewski told reporters. "(Allen) knows it, and the right thing to do was apologize in person."

2. Krzyzewski, speaking after Wednesday's win, defended how's he handled Allen. "I handle things the way I handle them," he said. "I will continue to handle them correctly. I don't need to satisfy what other people think I should do. I'm a teacher and a coach and I'm responsible for that kid. I know him better than anybody -- to think that this is the last thing said to him is wrong."

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18328405/duke-blue-devils-grayson-allen-receives-technical-tripping-elon-player

[Doria]

Snippet from the post game recap.


I don't see the ACC not suspending Grayson considering the front office already took action against last year for the same thing. Really bad timing with us starting ACC play for our next game. It's a home game. IF Grayson is suspended, is he even allowed on the bench in street clothes?

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/no-5-duke-beats-elon-72-61-in-final-game-before-acc-play/16361305/#82YcxMAc55bQsJHc.99

I would personally prefer to see Duke handle this, but I don't know where the responsibility or "jurisdiction" for things like this lies (beyond, obviously, the coach). I think the "Coach K is an enabler" moments are a bit much, without knowing what's been tried, if anything; I just don't have enough information to opine on that one in terms of last year.

[Kjeffrey]

I just saw coach K's post game comments and of course he said all the right things but to me he came across as only saying the bare minimum.

He even said, "let's move on". I don't think he's willing to accept the gravity of Grayson's actions, (at this time), that the media seems to want to embrace.

The media is going to go overboard on this.

Talking to Allen and making him apologize is not enough. Maybe K sees the gravity but his response (thus far) doesn't show that. If the media goes overboard that is on Allen for doing this three times and Coach K for not taking a harder line with him.

[Doria]

Talking to Allen and making him apologize is not enough. Maybe K sees the gravity but his response (thus far) doesn't show that. If the media goes overboard that is on Allen for doing this three times and Coach K for not taking a harder line with him.

Yeah, I agree. I felt the last second comment miramar mentioned is a bit tone deaf.

Anyway, I feel disappointed by the behavior, but I still like Grayson and am not prepared to say he's a bad kid or anything. I hope he can clean this up.

[moonpie23]

I feel bad for the kid. He has so much talent, but his immaturity gets the best of him. If he takes anything like his current attitude to the NBA he'll get planted by one of those men.

He has to learn to put his head down and just play. Stop trying to sell any calls. Eyes straight ahead at all times and just play. Focus.

When he came back in the second half the first thing he did was try to sell a charge call that the ref didn't bite on and called him for a block. He has to stop that crap to be the player he is capable of.

I have great respect for coach K, but he's guilty of enabling that behavior by not cracking down on it the past few years. By putting him back in that second half proves that point.

The trip wasn't aggressive, just an act of frustration. He's not a dirty player, to me. Just a whinner. Not sure why he was so frustrated, but that's how I viewed it, as frustration.

I think coach K should suspend him for two games...ones not enough and threes too many.

Come back and just play ball, kid..Jeeze..

well said, wheat....

[amat1129]

His reaction to frustration needs to stop. While getting frustrated is certainly understandable, it's hard to imagine this amount of attention would be given if he simply committed a hard on ball foul. His behavior warrants a susulension from the team of probably one game. The little overreaction party Davis, Jay Will and Greenberg had was pretty ridiculous. The refs reviewed the foul and didn't even eject him so why would the ACC all of sudden decide on a 5 game suspension. The conference isn't going to punish him or anyone else for that matter for fouls committed in previous seasons, especially fouls that didn't even result in ejections or suspensions. The ACC may give him one game, the school may give him 1+. I doubt it goes any further. Allen needs to stop and control his actions and reactions, and Greenberg needs to stop being an idiot.

[Olympic Fan]

Snippet from the post game recap.


I don't see the ACC not suspending Grayson considering the front office already took action against last year for the same thing. Really bad timing with us starting ACC play for our next game. It's a home game. FGrayson is suspended, is he even allowed on the bench in street clothes?

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/no-5-duke-beats-elon-72-61-in-final-game-before-acc-play/16361305/#82YcxMAc55bQsJHc.99

It's not a home game -- we play Virginia Tech in Blacksburg on Dec. 31

[norduck]

I feel bad for the kid. He has so much talent, but his immaturity gets the best of him. If he takes anything like his current attitude to the NBA he'll get planted by one of those men.

He has to learn to put his head down and just play. Stop trying to sell any calls. Eyes straight ahead at all times and just play. Focus.

When he came back in the second half the first thing he did was try to sell a charge call that the ref didn't bite on and called him for a block. He has to stop that crap to be the player he is capable of.

I have great respect for coach K, but he's guilty of enabling that behavior by not cracking down on it the past few years. By putting him back in that second half proves that point.

The trip wasn't aggressive, just an act of frustration. He's not a dirty player, to me. Just a whinner. Not sure why he was so frustrated, but that's how I viewed it, as frustration



I think coach K should suspend him for two games...ones not enough and threes too many.

Come back and just play ball, kid..Jeeze..

Maybe overwhelmed by anxiety from recent toe injury or exam week. Or, over elated from the Cheats latest NOA from NCAA for all their violations.

[Highlander]

Pretty indefensible behavior from Allen. I think a game suspension is in order. Suspending 5 games as Jwill suggested for an act that didn't warrant an ejection real time is way too harsh. I think putting a game suspension out there before the League office decides to do something more is a smart move. He has already done this twice prior and been warned. He cannot play the "I learned my lesson card this time."

[CameronBornAndBred]

It's not a home game -- we play Virginia Tech in Blacksburg on Dec. 31

Ooooh, I misread the notes. Regardless of being suspended, if he is there, Grayson better put on a few extra layers of skin and be ready to hear it all game long from the Hokie fans.
Back to the suspension questioning; does the ACC have jurisdiction over players/events in a game that was not between two ACC teams? That could be Grayson's saving grace if the answer is no, since it doesn't sound like K has any plans to sit him.

[Furniture]

Not sure if this was shown on tv but after the incident as Grayson was sitting Jack White tried to console him by putting his hand in his knee but Grayson just brushed away his hand quite roughly. On another note the crowd (mostly Duke fans) were very vocal and there was a lot of booing at the call. I wonder if this affected Grayson? The other thing I wonder is did K see his tantrum?

[tbyers11]

Pretty indefensible behavior from Allen. I think a game suspension is in order. Suspending 5 games as Jwill suggested for an act that didn't warrant an ejection real time is way too harsh. I think putting a game suspension out there before the League office decides to do something more is a smart move. He has already done this twice prior and been warned. He cannot play the "I learned my lesson card this time."

Not specifically to you Highlander but why should the ACC do anything in this matter? A player getting suspended by the league for a a single deadball technical foul would be extremely odd. The ACC would be traveling down a slippery slope if it brought in past transgressions from a different year to decide to suspend a player. These were all stupid decisions by Grayson but are not like throwing a punch or fouling somebody really hard on a breakaway where there is serious possibility for injury. If the ACC suspended somebody for 3 incidents (only 2 dead ball techs b/c the FSU one wasn't called) over different years that is setting a dangerous precedent. I am sure there a few players that have had three dead ball techs or flagrant one fouls over the last year and a half. Should they all be suspended?

Now if Duke wants to personally suspend him for basically "conduct unbecoming" that is a different matter. I'd have no problem with a game or two suspension but there are also other ways to enforce punishment.

[1999ballboy]

I agree 100% with Jay Williams.

[jacone21]

There was a lot more going on in that "tantrum" than just being angry about a call or at himself or whatever. That was some seriously deep emotion being released, like someone who is cracking under an awful lot of pressure. Whether it's his health, the "build them up; tear them down" media, something else... I don't know. But that dude is hurting right now and it's bigger than basketball. Hope he can find some joy in it again.


And ESPN and their talking heads can go to Chapel Hill.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Not sure if this was shown on tv but after the incident as Grayson was sitting Jack White tried to console him by putting his hand in his knee but Grayson just brushed away his hand quite roughly. On another note the crowd (mostly Duke fans) were very vocal and there was a lot of booing at the call. I wonder if this affected Grayson? The other thing I wonder is did K see his tantrum?

I can assure you Coach K saw the tantrum. Coach K sees all.

I'm very sad right now. Very sad and disappointed. And the worst part is that this isn't fixable nor explainable.

Sad flyingdtuchdevil.

[Fish80]

I feel so bad for Grayson and for the team. He did a bad thing, and now they all have to deal. Exasperating. Why. Why. Why.

So talented. But the damn spotlight is so bright and relentless.

[Troublemaker]

2. Krzyzewski, speaking after Wednesday's win, defended how's he handled Allen. "I handle things the way I handle them," he said. "I will continue to handle them correctly. I don't need to satisfy what other people think I should do. I'm a teacher and a coach and I'm responsible for that kid. I know him better than anybody -- to think that this is the last thing said to him is wrong."


Love it. Can't wait to see a video of this. That's boss.

[Dukehky]

I just saw coach K's post game comments and of course he said all the right things but to me he came across as only saying the bare minimum.

He even said, "let's move on". I don't think he's willing to accept the gravity of Grayson's actions, (at this time), that the media seems to want to embrace.

The media is going to go overboard on this.

I just don't agree with this whatsoever. Not sure how touching the back out someone's leg with your foot indicates some severely grave actions by Grayson. I mean, it is what it is, K isn't going to suspend him, the ACC may give him two games, especially in light of K's post game where he says that he is going to do things his way. I just don't see these as a huge deal.

That WV kid didn't get but one game last year for slamming an opponents head into the floor. Like, of all the things a Duke player could do that would upset me, this is pretty far down the list, and I'm most upset because the rest of the team, which is admittedly struggling, will have this as a distraction.

The most concerning thing coming from after this game was Luke saying that the whole team wasn't bought in to being one. Seemed to be a shot at Tatum and Jackson who were pretty voluminous in their shot attempts tonight. Also not great body language from Marques, who has been passed by Jeter in the first big off the bench.

[84crazy]

At this point I would really like to hear something directly from Grayson about all this. I wouldn't care if it was verbal or in writing or maybe he can't even explain it himself but I'd like to hear his side after that tantrum he threw on the bench.

[BD80]

I hear Coach K is REALLY pissed.

Grayson won't be picking the post-game restaurant for the rest of the year!

Seriously, Grayson needs help, and the staff will make sure he gets it. I think the emotional breakdown on the bench was his disappointment in failing to live up to his promises that it wouldn't happen again, that he had let down his family and the team.

I find it amusing that a carolina fan is advising us on what the standard for appropriate discipline should be - but then I guess Grayson's frustration-laden reaction in the heat of an overly physical moment is far more heinous than being caught with a loaded weapon in a drug dealer's car.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I hear Coach K is REALLY pissed.

Grayson won't be picking the post-game restaurant for the rest of the year!

Seriously, Grayson needs help, and the staff will make sure he gets it. I think the emotional breakdown on the bench was his disappointment in failing to live up to his promises that it wouldn't happen again, that he had let down his family and the team.

I find it amusing that a carolina fan is advising us on what the standard for appropriate discipline should be - but then I guess Grayson's frustration-laden reaction in the heat of an overly physical moment is far more heinous than being caught with a loaded weapon in a drug dealer's car.

I get this feeling as well. I honestly believe Grayson had no idea he stuck out his leg. He was so angry at himself for that foul that absolutely looked intentional. God, I feel bad for the kid. I honestly believe this problem can't be helped.

[BandAlum83]

Jay Williams calling for the ACC to take action on Twitter.

What kind of action can the ACC take against twitter? Prohibit all ACC coaches and players fronm having an account or tweeting?

Sheesh, and Twitter didn't cause Grayson's leg to do what it did. Why would the league blame twitter?

Talk about scapegoating.

[1999ballboy]

At this point I would really like to hear something directly from Grayson about all this. I wouldn't care if it was verbal or in writing or maybe he can't even explain it himself but I'd like to hear his side after that tantrum he threw on the bench.

I'll pass. We already have heard something directly from Grayson after he did it the last two times, all this babbling about how he never wanted to be a villain, and we just found out that it meant absolutely nothing. I don't want to hear anything out of that kid's mouth for a while except for strong, team-oriented communication with his teammates on the court after he comes back from a couple games' suspension.

[Dukehky]

I get this feeling as well. I honestly believe Grayson had no idea he stuck out his leg. He was so angry at himself for that foul that absolutely looked intentional. God, I feel bad for the kid. I honestly believe this problem can't be helped.

Again, "problem." If it's not bad enough to get ejected, it's not bad enough to get suspended, period. If Gerald Henderson only got one game for absolutely lighting up Hansbrough, how the hell can you sit here and say the ACC should suspend someone for sticking his leg out.

Look, I think our team would be better off if G sat for a game or two. He's had 2 strong games this year (MSU and UNLV), and the rest have been pretty pedestrian. He needs to get healthy, and maybe sitting out for two games would just make him keep his head down, because he is kind of a whiner. You also cannot take past seasons into the process when acting on this, that's just not appropriate.

I was furious at the kid and pretty disappointed as well just because it was so freaking stupid, but this is not some kind of abomination that would lower the prestige of Duke basketball if he weren't suspended. He touched a guys leg with his foot, let's get some perspective. He got a technical, and Elon got like a 6 point play out of it that almost swung the game, that's the purpose of a T, that was what Duke suffered tonight and Grayson knew it.

[FerryFor50]

Gues Seventh Woods takes the UNC-Duke rivalry so seriously that he wanted to try to outdo Grayson with this classy play.



https://youtu.be/-Mw6FfrpJow

[uh_no]

Now if Duke wants to personally suspend him for basically "conduct unbecoming" that is a different matter. I'd have no problem with a game or two suspension but there are also other ways to enforce punishment.

I found this tidbit which had been missed in K's presser.



You want the truth?

Son, we live in a world that has opponents, and those opponents have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, tbyers11? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santa Ana, and you curse Grayson. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that Santa Ana's fall, while tragic, probably won games; and Grayson's actions, while inexplicable and incomprehensible to you, wins games. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want him on that court -- you need him on that court. We use words like "honor," "code," "loyalty." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and celebrates under the blanket of the very wins that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a ball and stand the post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you're entitled to!

Anyway,

Have you ever been in a situation where you think you might have screwed up your life real bad? I don't mean "oops I dinged my car door"...I mean "oops I just got myself fired from my dream job." How would you react? Tears? Anger? When I saw him throwing his tantrum, I can't begin to imagine the emotion that most overcome you after realizing that you just screwed up...big time...on national television...AND cost your team...AND will have to go back to square one of trying to convince the world you're not that person that you let slip out again.

I saw a Grayson that knew he screwed up big time. I saw a Grayson who reacted to that by getting angry and disappointed in himself, and that outlet come across as a tantrum. The most traumatic emotional incidents I have had in my life involve the death of grandparents (for which I consider myself lucky). That extreme sadness exhibited itself in anger towards others. Obviously it's not right, but I was also 12. Is it right for Grayson? Obviously not. But I can understand how emotions might exhibit themselves in ways that are borderline uncontrollable.

He knew exactly what would come. The talking heads calling for him to be drawn and quartered, the feeling of an entire staff, team, and fan-base being collectively disappointed in him, the renewed jeers that will now be guaranteed to follow him for the rest of his collegiate career. People at the game have told me he did break down into tears after the yelling stopped. He knew what was coming, he's been there before.

And with all that, we have a coach, a coach with a degree from west point of all places, has no idea how to discipline one of his players? Really? That because K is not coming out and cutting this kid dry like the rest of the sports world and many of the commenters here, that he doesn't view the whole thing as a big deal? Give me a break. I don't view coach as infallible by any stretch of the imagination...but to look at the young men that have come out of this program, to look at the growth of someone like quinn cook, to read about the instance of discipline that are detailed in his books, and think that he has no idea what he is doing is just crazy in my mind.

People are saying that they have lost faith in K now. Really? Is it beyond imaginable that there is a person out for whom disappointing people who trust in him is worse than any public punishment that could be doled out? If you believe that such a person exists, then calling for punishment beyond what K finds appropriate either means you are calling for punishment just to appease YOURSELF (exactly what K called out in his presser), or you think you understand Grayson better than Coach does. Both sentiments are, frankly, disgusting in my mind.

I don't know what punishment K doled out to Grayson. I don't know what was said between the two. I don't really care. I am disappointed in Grayson. He knows his actions are unacceptable, he doesn't need me, or some big wigs calling for his head to understand that.

I hope he can be a better representative of this university moving forward, and I hope the rest of you can find room in your heart to forgive a guy who goes through more than most of us will ever know.

[richardjackson199]

I believe you are under reacting. This has happened three times over two seasons. Grayson needs to be held accountable for his unacceptable actions. Fix it now before it becomes a real problem.

Grayson is my favorite player on this team. I love his passion, and he seems like the consummate Duke player. He's smart, savvy, sets up teammates, and is lethal. He sparked us winning our 5th National Championship.

But if UNC or Kentucky had a player who had tripped someone 3 times - I would say enough already - the guy is a dirty player. I don't want to believe Grayson is a dirty player or bad kid. I believe he is a great kid. But actions should have consequences. Repeated actions should have more severe consequences. 3 times? I'm sorry but that is behavior unbecoming of a Duke basketball player.

K dismissed Rasheed for behavior unbecoming of a Duke basketball player. I have no clue what Rasheed did to deserve getting kicked off the team. But everybody knows what Grayson did. Tripping people is a big deal. It's dirty, people can get injured, and there is no place for it on the court.

Everybody has an opinion of what should be done. Some say the media reaction, apologies, technical foul, and sitting out are enough. He was punished. Some say he should be suspended 1 game, 2 games, 3 games, 5 games. I respect all these opinions. My opinion, which is nothing more than one opinion, is that Grayson Allen should be dismissed from the team. Playing for Duke and representing Duke is a privilege which i don't believe he has earned at this point. Would that destroy our National Championship hopes this year? Probably. But some things are more important than national championships. We don't do things the Carolina Way.

I find this very embarrassing that the face of our team is now going to be labelled a dirty player. He is a good kid and a great person. But I'm sorry - he has earned that label. That is not what Duke basketball is about at all in my opinion. I think dismissing him from the team would send that message. I favor zero tolerance for repeated, and repeated again unacceptable behavior. I favor a response similar to what Tony Bennett did with Austin Nichols for repeated unacceptable behavior. I would prefer Duke handle this the right way, and then we don't need the ACC to give us a harsher penalty.

I'm not saying dump Allen. Dismiss him from the team, get him counseling, then support and help him graduate and prepare for the NBA draft. I do think his apology was the right thing to do after the game. I just think in this case words aren't enough.

That said - that is just my opinion and it's very extreme. Extremes are usually wrong - it's not a black and white world and the best answer is usually somewhere in the middle. I am often wrong and I'm probably wrong here. Many of you whom I respect have different opinions, and all of them make sense to me. I'll support whatever Coach K decides to do. Thankfully K is very thoughtful and always operates with utmost integrity. Thankfully he doesn't listen to Seth Greenberg, Jay Williams, Jay Bilas, or fans. He'll do what he thinks is right and I'll support it. I hope he dismisses Grayson Allen from our team because at this point, I think that is the right thing to do. But whatever he decides, even if it's nothing else - I'll cheer for Duke and I'll cheer for Allen.

But I can't defend what Allen did - 3 times. I think it's dirty, reprehensible, and unbecoming of a Duke basketball player. And that in my opinion at this point deserves a very harsh punishment which Grayson Allen unfortunately earned with his actions.

I'm sure this opinion won't be popular and that I sound like a sanctimonious prick to many. I've made mistakes, I've made repeated mistakes, and i've earned harsh consequences. I hope that helped me learn from those mistakes - because I deserved the consequences I got. Many of us make mistakes and face consequences. Fortunately it's not the lead story on ESPN. I can't imagine that level of humiliation. But that is what happens if you star for Duke and keep screwing up. I'm sad for Grayson. I hope regardless of how Coach K teaches him - that Grayson overcomes this reputation.

[quahog174]

Perspective people. Next play.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Gues Seventh Woods takes the UNC-Duke rivalry so seriously that he wanted to try to outdo Grayson with this classy play.



https://youtu.be/-Mw6FfrpJow

Freshmen.

Didn't look like Roy even saw it, but you can bet he will and voice his displeasure...while Seventh hunts for his lungs after running extra suicides for that rookie move.

[FerryFor50]

Freshmen.

Didn't look like Roy even saw it, but you can bet he will and voice his displeasure...while Seventh hunts for his lungs after running extra suicides for that rookie move.

Yea but will he get to pick the restaurant this season?

[dudog84]

Wow. The over-reaction to this by some is getting ridiculous. A 1-game suspension is probably warranted, but I can assure you that neither Coach K nor Kevin White care what I think.

These are 3 incidents that embarrass Grayson Allen. Probably his family. Maybe Coach K a bit. But a reflection of Duke University? Come on.

In none of these incidents was the opposing player in danger of injury. None of them came at high speed. Most every game we see hard fouls that could cause injury, even ruin a player's career. His actions are immature and he needs to fix it. But 5 games? Removal from the team?

I do think this stuff hurts his draft stock. He's not a can't miss player that teams will take a chance on a "bad attitude". If anything, he may need to come back for another year of growth before he heads to the NBA. The draft is stocked this year anyway, it may not be a bad idea.

[norduck]

Freshmen.

Didn't look like Roy even saw it, but you can bet he will and voice his displeasure...while Seventh hunts for his lungs after running extra suicides for that rookie move.

Much like he'll respond to NOA from NCAA for being a CHEAT.

[OZ]

I feel bad for the kid. He has so much talent, but his immaturity gets the best of him. If he takes anything like his current attitude to the NBA he'll get planted by one of those men.

He has to learn to put his head down and just play. Stop trying to sell any calls. Eyes straight ahead at all times and just play. Focus.

When he came back in the second half the first thing he did was try to sell a charge call that the ref didn't bite on and called him for a block. He has to stop that crap to be the player he is capable of.

I have great respect for coach K, but he's guilty of enabling that behavior by not cracking down on it the past few years. By putting him back in that second half proves that point.

The trip wasn't aggressive, just an act of frustration. He's not a dirty player, to me. Just a whinner. Not sure why he was so frustrated, but that's how I viewed it, as frustration.

I think coach K should suspend him for two games...ones not enough and threes too many.

Come back and just play ball, kid..Jeeze..



"by not cracking down"
You have no idea how Coach K has handled this. The main reason being, Coach K doesn't make it a practice of going public with how he relates to his players.

"By putting him back in that second half proves that point."
Actually, it doesn't prove anything, other than, he chose to play Alan the second half.

[Billy Dat]

I worried at the start of the year that Grayson would have another incident and here we are.

I don't think he can control it, which is a big problem. Draymond Green can't control himself kicking and punching people. Will tripping people prove to be a prohibitive problem for Grayson? Maybe, because it seems like a Jekyll/Hyde scenario. I agree that his anguish was due to his realization that this happened again. He doesn't want to wear the black hat. Every offseason profile for the presumed POY was about his remorse. Now, he looks like a liar or a psycho.

It also forces K into his trademark "Don't tell me what to do or think" stance which is a bad look.

It also adds more drama to what is supposed to be a celebration of a season which has been disrupted by injuries and now this distraction. When Kennard says post game that guys aren't anout being one and winning, who is he talking about? Is it Grayson for losing control? Is it something else?

Now we have to have a referendum over what kind of punishment he should get? Distraction, distraction, distraction.

Come on guys, get out of your own way!!!

[Im4howdy]

Maybe Grayson should lose his co-captain status on the team?

[Dukehky]

If K doesn't suspend him, I think that K should be suspended for not doing the right thing!!!!

--Dana O'Neil, ESPN Hot Take Machine. Can't wait to hear what Stephen A thinks on this matter. Duke and Grayson Allen are the only reasons anyone cares about college basketball outside their own teams until March. This is why sports companies do this. Bring people in for the football... "Oh yay!!! Duke did something bad, let me read about that!"


I almost want K to suspend him just to shut everyone the hell up so we can move on.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Here's the video of Grayson.

https://twitter.com/JessikaMorgan/status/811752599951208448

Coach K has to suspend him. 1 game is fine but he has to do it. This is the 3rd time now.

[jv001]

I feel bad for the kid. He has so much talent, but his immaturity gets the best of him. If he takes anything like his current attitude to the NBA he'll get planted by one of those men.

He has to learn to put his head down and just play. Stop trying to sell any calls. Eyes straight ahead at all times and just play. Focus.

When he came back in the second half the first thing he did was try to sell a charge call that the ref didn't bite on and called him for a block. He has to stop that crap to be the player he is capable of.

I have great respect for coach K, but he's guilty of enabling that behavior by not cracking down on it the past few years. By putting him back in that second half proves that point.
The trip wasn't aggressive, just an act of frustration. He's not a dirty player, to me. Just a whinner. Not sure why he was so frustrated, but that's how I viewed it, as frustration.

I think coach K should suspend him for two games...ones not enough and threes too many.

Come back and just play ball, kid..Jeeze..

I was agreeing with your comment until I came to the bolded part of your post. I think Coach K has handled the situation correctly up until now. If he doesn't suspend Grayson for at least one game, then I might agree with you. GoDuke!

[CoachJ10]

Perspective people. Next play.

Agreed. I think a lot of posters on this topic should take a step back and get some perspective on this.

[Furniture]

Here's the video of Grayson.

https://twitter.com/JessikaMorgan/status/811752599951208448

Coach K has to suspend him. 1 game is fine but he has to do it. This is the 3rd time now.

I agree. The crying, the words are all a bit of a broken record. If nothing is done he will never learn.

[jv001]

I agree. The crying, the words are all a bit of a broken record. If nothing is done he will never learn.

I agree. It may do more harm to Grayson for Coach not to suspend him for one game. Then again, I'm not a shrink. Then again Coach might just tell the ACC that he'll suspend him when the cheats are punished. GoDuke!

[heyman25]

I think a game or 2 off might be worth it ,unless Grayson is so self destructive he hasn't learned a thing about his behavior.Grayson just has to tune out the noise and control his emotions on the court.If he is out every freshmen will get more playing reps.Kennard can become a distributor.Jackson & Jones can step up their playmaking skills. At the end of the season I predict Grayson recover from this and have more UNLV type games.

[lmb]

I trust that K will do what he thinks is best for Grayson as a person first. Basketball comes second. That could possibly mean many fans will be disappointed by what we see publicly. Maybe the worst thing for his mental health is to suspend him. Who knows what has been done and will be done behind the scenes? A person's greatest strength is also their greatest weakness. His fiery emotions netted a national championship but also have led to these 3 incidents. He needs some help and I hope and pray he can find happiness and learn to be at peace with himself going forward. If this is a life-changing moment for him I hope it changes for the better

[mr. synellinden]

Is it possible that by not suspending him - which will turn the volume up on this scandal - how far are we from Grayson-gate? - and work up the ESPN opinionator machine into a fine overreactionary lather, thereby heightening and prolonging the issue - and extending the guilt Allen has to feel for letting down his teammates and coaches - Coack is actually penalizing him worse. You made your bed now lie in it longer. Your punishment isn't 2 games. It's longer and harsher attention that you have to answer for.

[Kfan4Life]

I think in the short run it would help the team if he was suspended. However, I do not think that it would really deter him from doing it again under the right circumstance. It seems like he is really unable to control himself, similar to Draymond Green. Other teams know this so they are going to do whatever they can to get under his skin to provoke him. Lastly, Seth Greenberg has got to be the biggest douche I have ever seen on TV.

[sagegrouse]

I guess I must have run with a tough group of kids, but worse stuff than this happened in my second and third grade class almost every week, and no one was ever sent to the principal's office. No player has gotten hurt from Grayson's antics, and he received on-court punishment. I am having trouble working up not only a high dudgeon but also even a medium-sized dudgeon.

I am actually concerned that Grayson seems to lose it at certain times. I can't see why this is a disciplinary issue beyond the Duke basketball program.

As to the TV announcers' reactions? Well, they have a lot of air time to fill, and they have to talk about something. Grayson is the gift that keeps on giving.

[uh_no]

Lastly, Seth Greenberg has got to be the biggest douche I have ever seen on TV.

If you think THAT's bad, you should have seen him coach!

[WHOneedsSOX]

Thought he handled the media really well after the game. Video is up on ESPN now. They asked him about the whole play leading up to the trip and he basically just said that talking about that would be an excuse and there's no excuse for what he did. Could definitely tell it was hurting him.

[subzero02]

This entire thing is being way overblown... Stockton and Isaiah would've had a hard time playing with this level of scrutiny. I will say that each of Grayson's tripping incidents seem to be retaliatory...he has a quick temper and reacts before thinking. I am fine with no suspension, 1/2 a game or a full game. Anything more is an overreaction.

[Acymetric]

I feel bad for the kid. He has so much talent, but his immaturity gets the best of him. If he takes anything like his current attitude to the NBA he'll get planted by one of those men.

He has to learn to put his head down and just play. Stop trying to sell any calls. Eyes straight ahead at all times and just play. Focus.

When he came back in the second half the first thing he did was try to sell a charge call that the ref didn't bite on and called him for a block. He has to stop that crap to be the player he is capable of.

I have great respect for coach K, but he's guilty of enabling that behavior by not cracking down on it the past few years. By putting him back in that second half proves that point.

The trip wasn't aggressive, just an act of frustration. He's not a dirty player, to me. Just a whinner. Not sure why he was so frustrated, but that's how I viewed it, as frustration.

I think coach K should suspend him for two games...ones not enough and threes too many.

Come back and just play ball, kid..Jeeze..

Yeah, Grayson will never amount to anything, just look what happened to Chris Paul (who's habitual dirty trick of choice is significantly worse). I'm not trying to defend Grayson's actions, but if he did not play for Duke this would just be a 10 second sports center blip that nobody really cares about.

[FadedTackyShirt]

I do think this stuff hurts his draft stock. He's not a can't miss player that teams will take a chance on a "bad attitude". If anything, he may need to come back for another year of growth before he heads to the NBA. The draft is stocked this year anyway, it may not be a bad idea.

Grayson's a very good college player, but he's not a lottery pick and his issues may have pushed him out of the first round now.

Different league, but Suh and Burfict are way more physically talented than Grayson. They're also dirtier players, but some pro teams are willing to excuse bad behavior from stars. Grayson's a rotation player/spot starter in the NBA. Warriors are extremely well run, but even they put up with Draymond.

Sadly not surprised that Grayson screwed up again, but the extent of the meltdown was alarming. Also surprised that K made Grayson a Captain this season and played him again after the meltdown. Will be disappointed if K doesn't suspend Grayson for VPI.

[mgtr]

I guess I must have run with a tough group of kids, but worse stuff than this happened in my second and third grade class almost every week, and no one was ever sent to the principal's office. No player has gotten hurt from Grayson's antics, and he received on-court punishment. I am having trouble working up not only a high dudgeon but also even a medium-sized dudgeon.

I am actually concerned that Grayson seems to lose it at certain times. I can't see why this is a disciplinary issue beyond the Duke basketball program.

As to the TV announcers' reactions? Well, they have a lot of air time to fill, and they have to talk about something. Grayson is the gift that keeps on giving.

This is a view I share. Coach K knows what he is doing, and is the man in charge. No other action warranted.

[CoachJ10]

This is a view I share. Coach K knows what he is doing, and is the man in charge. No other action warranted.


I guess I must have run with a tough group of kids, but worse stuff than this happened in my second and third grade class almost every week, and no one was ever sent to the principal's office. No player has gotten hurt from Grayson's antics, and he received on-court punishment. I am having trouble working up not only a high dudgeon but also even a medium-sized dudgeon.

I am actually concerned that Grayson seems to lose it at certain times. I can't see why this is a disciplinary issue beyond the Duke basketball program.

As to the TV announcers' reactions? Well, they have a lot of air time to fill, and they have to talk about something. Grayson is the gift that keeps on giving.

Agree, especially w/ regard to the media. There is no shame in their game...why expect it to start now.

Perhaps K could give Grayson JJ's cell number so he could share with him the secrets he used to internalize not only the mental warfare sent his way, but the physical cheap shots he routinely gets during every game.

Also, since shaming seems to be the act of the moment...did Santa Ana apologize to Grayson for grabbing his arm that started this whole thing? And did the referee apologize for making a bad basketball call on said grab? Just want to make sure the shaming is spread around to all worthy parties.

[Spanarkel]

I can assure you Coach K saw the tantrum. Coach K sees all.

I'm very sad right now. Very sad and disappointed. And the worst part is that this isn't fixable nor explainable.

Sad flyingdtuchdevil.



Agree totally. Lots has been written about Grayson's kick/trip and his emotional meltdown on the bench, but to me the worst part was his tirade against the game official right after the call. I don't read lips well so I can't say it was profane but...

[Troublemaker]

Is it possible that by not suspending him - which will turn the volume up on this scandal - how far are we from Grayson-gate? - and work up the ESPN opinionator machine into a fine overreactionary lather, thereby heightening and prolonging the issue - and extending the guilt Allen has to feel for letting down his teammates and coaches - Coack is actually penalizing him worse. You made your bed now lie in it longer. Your punishment isn't 2 games. It's longer and harsher attention that you have to answer for.

I don't think Coach would approach punishment that way; it seems a bit Machiavellian and vindictive. However, I do think he is well aware of the media storm this latest trip will create -- especially after he played Grayson in the 2nd half and doesn't seem likely to suspend him -- and his advice to Grayson will be to ignore the storm and not let it affect him. That's the advice Coach relayed in the postgame presser; he would want Grayson to ignore the media storm (instead of absorbing it as punishment like your post is suggesting).

[Dukehky]

I feel like my child is under attack right now. And I'm not even that big of a Grayson fan. This reminds me a whole lot of that South Park episode where the media harass Britney Spears to death so they can make the crops grow. No one is actually outraged by this, because, well, this isn't outrageous.

I foul people way harder than that in every game of basketball I've ever played. That being said, I am a dirty basketball player and would have been the most hated player in Duke basketball history because I am white and dirty. Only missing the being super freaking good at basketball part of the equation.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Where is Jay Bilas' and Jay Williams' outrage for 20 years of cheating? Oh, but go ahead and get on your high horses and pile onto Grayson, question Coach K's methods and make a huge deal out of this. @&)#ing pisses me off to no end. These are the moments where they earn their reputations for overcompensating for being part of the Duke family.

[diablesseblu]

Where is Jay Bilas' and Jay Williams' outrage for 20 years of cheating? Oh, but go ahead and get on your high horses and pile onto Grayson, question Coach K's methods and make a huge deal out of this. @&)#ing pisses me off to no end. These are the moments where they earn their reputations for overcompensating for being part of the Duke family.


Exactly. And, if ESPN's fortunes don't change, John Skipper will be gone. Bob Iger is already feeling the heat on that segment of Disney's portfolio.

Would a new skipper (pardon me, I had to) mean then the two Jays will suddenly lose their UNC blinders and apparent fealty? If JS is replaced, we'll have to pay close attention to the UG school of his successor. We'll then be prepared for which school then gets passes (not that there could any as big as the ones UNC has been getting).

[wavedukefan70s]

I think in the short run it would help the team if he was suspended. However, I do not think that it would really deter him from doing it again under the right circumstance. It seems like he is really unable to control himself, similar to Draymond Green. Other teams know this so they are going to do whatever they can to get under his skin to provoke him. Lastly, Seth Greenberg has got to be the biggest douche I have ever seen on TV.

I have no respect for greenburg.i watched v.tech play charleston southern years ago.csu was out rebounding V.T. and winning.all of a sudden the csu forward was undercut.he never came back in.seth smirked about it.im not saying he told him to do it.but as a general human being atleast a little concern or respect should be shown.it was a dirty play.

Back to topic .i hope G can work out those deamons.a matured mentally tough grayson is what he needs to succeed.hes a youngman im sure he can get this under control.
With help from others.

[weezie]

There's a sweet little feature on my tv clicker called the MUTE BUTTON! Check it out!

Plus the internets machine also has a linky to the Duke radio broadcasts thereby circumventing any gassy bloviating from preachers and pols. So what if there are a few seconds of delay which would otherwise be stuffed full of tongue-clucks and sniffing from the sideline reporters.

Make note of the advertised products on the tube though, then don't buy them.

[DukieInKansas]

I thought Grayson shouldn't have come back in the game. However, I would not have expected Coach K to announce any punishment right after the game. I expect him to carefully consider the situation and determine the best way to handle it.
I am in the camp that thought his meltdown on the bench was more about his action than the call.

[jv001]

Where is Jay Bilas' and Jay Williams' outrage for 20 years of cheating? Oh, but go ahead and get on your high horses and pile onto Grayson, question Coach K's methods and make a huge deal out of this. @&)#ing pisses me off to no end. These are the moments where they earn their reputations for overcompensating for being part of the Duke family.

ESPN and most of it's sports anchors are saying what most of the Duke Haters want to hear. That happens all the time, but I'm with you. Why no reporting on the biggest sports fraud ever committed? It has to be because they are afraid if they do, they'll lose their jobs. Shame on both the Duke Jays for their comments regarding Grayson and nothing on the UNCHEAT'S FRAUD! GoDuke!

[Highlander]

Statement from Coach K saying Grayson will be suspended "indefinitely."

"We have determined that Grayson will be suspended from competition for an indefinite amount of time."

[weezie]

One more thing: some blowhards are comparing Grayson to the Back2Back Bad Boy Detroit Pistons who were so Bad that they actually fought each other.

As the self-appointed All-Things-Detroit czar here, that's pretty darned Bad. But I still don't think he deserves the hatred. And I also think he can handle it, just smile and wink G!

[Indoor66]

I have no respect for greenburg.i watched v.tech play charleston southern years ago.csu was out rebounding V.T. and winning.all of a sudden the csu forward was undercut.he never came back in.seth smirked about it.im not saying he told him to do it.but as a general human being atleast a little concern or respect should be shown.it was a dirty play.

Back to topic .i hope G can work out those deamons.a matured mentally tough grayson is what he needs to succeed.hes a youngman im sure he can get this under control.
With help from others.

thank you mr cummings

[Jeffrey]

I'd be surprised if Grayson is not enrolled in an anger management program. His behavior afterwards, on the bench, is a true concern. Disturbing way for any player to behave, especially a team captain.

This has nothing to do with the UNC issue and, IMO, we look bad mentioning it in this thread.

As usual, my hats off to K for making this an indefinite suspension.

[uh_no]

I'd be surprised if Grayson is not enrolled in an anger management program.

more likely he'd have someone working with him individually.

[DukeWarhead]

I'd be surprised if Grayson is not enrolled in an anger management program. His behavior afterwards, on the bench, is a true concern. Disturbing way for any player to behave, especially a team captain.

Perhaps we should allow the coaching staff, who know Grayson far better than any of us ever will, to determine how concerning his tantrum was. I've been around competitive young athletes for many, many years. Losing your cool in a game or on the bench or sideline (even a few times) is not necessarily sign of something 'wrong.' If Grayson had issues off the court, then there might be more reason to wonder. But I've heard nothing but really good things about him when he's off-court or as a student. I'd look more to a bit of sports psychology (very common in big programs) to learn techniques for self-control during game time. You can call that anger management, I suppose, but "anger management program" can encompass a lot of stuff that frankly Grayson hasn't exhibited, as far as I know.

[Jeffrey]

more likely he'd have someone working with him individually.

I suspect that's normally the case when privacy is an issue.

[newclasspack]

Grayson needs someone to talk to. Therapy would really help him. his ability to control his emotions is outstripped but his competitiveness and drive to perfection and it results in things like this. I know because i was almost exactly the same way at his age and it manifested itself almost identically to how it is in Grayson. I def. don't think he's a bad kid, but he has doesn't have the emotional maturity to deal with everything that comes with being a High D1 star RN. Even if he doesn't have therapy having someone to talk to in some official capacity will help. And things like this (the suspension) will help him and realizing he went overboard and where the line is. Having Someone hold me accountable for my actions really helped me when iw as going throw my stuff but it didn't really start getting better til therapy.