MBB: Duke 65, Tenn St 55 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[TKG]

Best thing about the game? It's over. That was ugly.

[BLPOG]

Ugly.

But Luke Kennard - the force is strong with that one.

[Kfanarmy]

A win, but a very unispired effort.

[WWBD]

I will only say this. Marques and Frank need to play a lot if this team is going to reach its potential. Giles goes without saying, but he gets a pass tonight. I'm not one to question the GOAT, but I am scratching my head at what he was thinking for the final 15 minutes of the game tonight...

[-jk]

Exam breaks... <sigh>

-jk

[DukeWarhead]

Lumps of coal for misery at free throw line. Weak. Boo. Something to work on over break. Hope doo-doo games like this don't show up during ACC play. Geez.

[DukieTiger]

I will only say this. Marques and Frank need to play a lot if this team is going to reach its potential. Giles goes without saying, but he gets a pass tonight. I'm not one to question the GOAT, but I am scratching my head at what he was thinking for the final 15 minutes of the game tonight...

You mean the stretch where Duke actually won the game?

[fuse]

I said Kennard was our most important player to date in the Kennard thread.

I say he's now our most important player this season until someone else proves otherwise.

Jefferson remains a joy to watch. Finally got called on being out of bounds on the baseline pass dunk which Marshall did so well (and also was out of bounds 90% of the time).

What an embarassment of riches we have this year.

Surprising to see Jeter log a lot of minutes and not Bolden, although Bolden was pretty ineffective in limited minutes. Jeter seems to have earned the right to play through some mistakes and made plenty.

Pretty good post exam on court test.

[DukieTiger]

Exam breaks... <sigh>

-jk

Yup. Almost always see at least one lackluster effort following exams. Expect VT to be the same, following another extended break.

In years past, Duke peaked early and those breaks just destroyed their momentum.

This year, we're just getting started. The season sorta doesn't really begin until 12/31.

[BullBlue]

Sigh. Well it was a win, even if it was ugly.

[Troublemaker]

Exam breaks... <sigh>

-jk

Yep. The post-finals game is very often ugly.

Very happy that Harry made his debut. Wish we could've played better in the 1st half so he could've gotten more minutes.

Shrug. We'll play better against Elon.

[Fish80]

In the last 10 minutes, Coach was a psychologist, sending a a message. You want minutes? Earn them.

[mgtr]

A win, but a very unispired effort.

Agree - Other than the first few minutes of the second half, Duke coasted. The coach must be an unhappy camper.

[6th Man]

I think I'm going to move on to next play and not think about that one anymore.

[Spanarkel]

Yup. Almost always see at least one lackluster effort following exams. Expect VT to be the same, following another extended break.

In years past, Duke peaked early and those breaks just destroyed their momentum.

This year, were just getting started. The season sorta doesn't really begin until 12/31.


I hope the break after Wednesday's Elon game doesn't lead to a similarly lackluster effort against Virginia Tech on 12/31. I really fail to see the reasoning behind not having a post-Christmas tune-up/shake off the rust game before ACC play starts. Over the past 5 years Duke has played at least 2 post-Christmas games before starting league play. I know that the ACC season starts sooner(12/31)this season, but at least one post-Christmas game might be helpful, if tonight is any indication.

[arnie]

I said Kennard was our most important player to date in the Kennard thread.

I say he's now our most important player this season until someone else proves otherwise.

Jefferson remains a joy to watch. Finally got called on being out of bounds on the baseline pass dunk which Marshall did so well (and also was out of bounds 90% of the time).

What an embarassment of riches we have this year.

Surprising to see Jeter log a lot of minutes and not Bolden, although Bolden was pretty ineffective in limited minutes. Jeter seems to have earned the right to play through some mistakes and made plenty.

Pretty good post exam on court test.

Without Kennard we lose a couple of more games to date. I also don't get Jeter playing so many more minutes than Bolden - if that doesn't change we struggle against better ACC teams. Hopefully Bolden's mystery injury isn't keeping him out.

[DukieTiger]

I hope the break after Wednesday's Elon game doesn't lead to a similarly lackluster effort against Virginia Tech on 12/31. I really fail to see the reasoning behind not having a post-Christmas tune-up/shake off the rust game before ACC play starts. Over the past 5 years Duke has played at least 2 post-Christmas games before starting league play. I know that the ACC season starts sooner(12/31)this season, but at least one post-Christmas game might be helpful, if tonight is any indication.

Yeah, I actually had to edit my post because I wrote it assuming there was at least one post-Christmas, pre-ACC game. It makes me nervous not to have it, then to go on the road to a team like VT.

[WillJ]

I thought Tennessee State was pretty good. They certainly played hard.

[DavidBenAkiva]

I feel sorry for Elon.

On another note, holy hell Grayson Allen is kibble for the college basketball truthers on social media. Reasonable minds can disagree about a call, but I think it's pretty clear from video replays that Allen's foot makes contact with a player from Tennessee State while he's driving to the basket for a shot. Some may see it and say "incidental contact," which is a totally fine opinion to have. I saw it and thought "wow, cheap shot" because it looks like the defender lifts up his knee to snag Allen's foot. It's a subjective call either way. Posting that perspective, though, means that you will be told that you're full of I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. and obviously Allen is flopping and should probably be suspended for his ongoing "behavior." I don't know what it is, but his presence brings out the absolute worst in people. I need to get off reddit during game threads. That place is toxic sometimes.

[6th Man]

I thought Tennessee State was pretty good. They certainly played hard.

I thought the coach had a great game plan. If they make the NCAA I could see them pulling an upset potentially. Made for an ugly game, but they slowed it down for sure.

[arnie]

I feel sorry for Elon.

On another note, holy hell Grayson Allen is kibble for the college basketball truthers on social media. Reasonable minds can disagree about a call, but I think it's pretty clear from video replays that Allen's foot makes contact with a player from Tennessee State while he's driving to the basket for a shot. Some may see it and say "incidental contact," which is a totally fine opinion to have. I saw it and thought "wow, cheap shot" because it looks like the defender lifts up his knee to snag Allen's foot. It's a subjective call either way. Posting that perspective, though, means that you will be told that you're full of I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. and obviously Allen is flopping and should probably be suspended for his ongoing "behavior." I don't know what it is, but his presence brings out the absolute worst in people. I need to get off reddit during game threads. That place is toxic sometimes.

Yea that was the play where Doris said no foul and horrible call. If she can't see what I saw, she's blind.

[ChrisP]

Yea that was the play where Doris said no foul and horrible call. If she can't see what I saw, she's blind.

Totally agree! If maybe she hadn't gone on and on about it, I wouldn't care so much but with all her blabbing about it, ESPN showed exactly ONE replay (and even on that one from a not-great angle, I could see the defender move in to hit Grayson's foot and spin his body around).

I will say that Doris sort of made up for it when she complained about the O-foul on Amile on what would have surely been one of the dunks of the year from Grayson on that inbounds pass. Wow!!! Too bad it didn't count because of a bad call.

[sagegrouse]

I will only say this. Marques and Frank need to play a lot if this team is going to reach its potential. Giles goes without saying, but he gets a pass tonight. I'm not one to question the GOAT, but I am scratching my head at what he was thinking for the final 15 minutes of the game tonight...

I dunno about the final 15 minutes, but in the last six minutes, we cut over to our "prevent victory" offense and gave up ten points of a 20-point lead. Yeah, I know, we are practicing the delay offense for when it really counts, but we had beaten Tennessee State to a pulp -- the players were exhausted -- and we let the Tigers recover.

[heyman25]

I will only say this. Marques and Frank need to play a lot if this team is going to reach its potential. Giles goes without saying, but he gets a pass tonight. I'm not one to question the GOAT, but I am scratching my head at what he was thinking for the final 15 minutes of the game tonight...
After we got the lead in double digits. Would it have hurt to let Giles and Bolden play to get in to game shape. Whatever. I agree with Seth Greenberg Kennard and Jefferson are the anchors of this team.Jefferson was 1 for 8 on the foul line(quote from ESPN)That is just plain bad. The shooting at home was really poor. I hope the next game we see more of Giles and Bolden. They need to play to get their game back. I would like to see Allen, Kennard, Tatum ,Giles and Jefferson play at the same time. Jones may be a glue guy, but the stars need to play.Jackson, Bolden, and DeLaurier and Jones can come off the bench.

[OldPhiKap]

After we got the lead in double digits. Would it have hurt to let Giles and Bolden play to get in to game shape. Whatever. I agree with Seth Greenberg Kennard and Jefferson are the anchors of this team.Jefferson was 1 for 8 on the foul line(quote from ESPN)That is just plain bad. The shooting at home was really poor. I hope the next game we see more of Giles and Bolden. They need to play to get their game back. I would like to see Allen, Kennard, Tatum ,Giles and Jefferson play at the same time. Jones may be a glue guy, but the stars need to play.Jackson, Bolden, and DeLaurier and Jones can come off the bench.

Right now, it seems that Chase is ahead of Bolden and Giles.

[Troublemaker]

I thought Tennessee State was pretty good. They certainly played hard.

Definitely. While I believe Duke wasn't itself tonight (for very good reasons), Tennessee St gave a tremendous effort as well. That was some of the best defense that's been played against us this season. They were aggressive and made running our sets very uncomfortable, and they did a good job beating us to spots and not falling for fakes.

[DukieInBrasil]

Before i read the other comments:

I didn't really think it was possible for this team to play so poorly. They didn't just play bad, they looked like they didn't want to play. Near the end of the game, up 20, they pretty much stopped playing. They scored 2 points over the final 3.5 minutes, with no FGs.
They played like they thought TSU was just gonna roll over for them, "yeah we'll show up and win". To TSU's credit, they played like they were going to win the game. That's a lesson this team needs to learn. Yeah, rust, yeah, exam break. Whatever, the team didn't play like a team and they didn't play like they had the urgency of winning.
I think the tell tale sign of this game can be shown with one stat: Luke Kennard- 39 minutes. He's the only one who played well. The rest of the starters played so poorly that K never felt comfortable going to the bench, and nor should he have, as each and every one off the bench played absolutely worthless basketball. Harry Giles, put up the worst looking, most poorly-thought out shot possible. Bolden looked like Jeter from last year. Jeter looked like Jeter from last year. Jackson at least made a shot (ok, 2), but his defensive effort was terrible.
VT is absolutely gonna blow the doors off this team if they come back from their 2nd 10-game layoff playing like this.

[duke96]

Right now, it seems that Chase is ahead of Bolden and Giles.

Right? Kind of amazing really.

[Billy Dat]

Our offense was terrible in the first half, I mostly credit Tenn St.'s defense, but we looked sloppy on both ends.

Kennard and Amile led as they have all season, but they had some blemishes, Luke's early turnovers and some weak D, Amile's missed foul shots...but 24 for Luke, including leading the decisive run, and 18 boards for Amile (including 7 offensive) and also stifling defense...awesome.

I am surprised no one mentioned Tatum's second half. I thought he was making things happen when we went on our run and is starting to be a part of the fabric of the rotation.

It's going to take a while to figure out rotations and who gets what shot where. The ball really started to move in the second half, we got our spacing, and suddenly guys have good shots in rhythm. We need to figure out how to get Tatum touches on the block.

With Amile playing so well and Tatum as the small ball 4, Bolden is going to have to figure out how to earn minutes. It would have been nice if he could have gotten one of those shots to fall, but his defensive presence was kind of nil in limited minutes. Jeter IS ahead of him right now.

As for Harry, it was sweet to see him take the floor. He'll be ok, I, too, wish it could have been a blow-out so he would have played more but "He's Back!" That's good enough for tonight.

Credit Tenn St., they were tough.

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

That was as poorly as we can play offensively. I'm not concerned in any way whatsoever about our offense.

I was again (UNLV) really impressed with our defense. I was again pleasantly surprised by Tatum's defense. If we keep improving defensively I like our chances.

[dukelifer]

Before i read the other comments:

I didn't really think it was possible for this team to play so poorly. They didn't just play bad, they looked like they didn't want to play. Near the end of the game, up 20, they pretty much stopped playing. They scored 2 points over the final 3.5 minutes, with no FGs.
They played like they thought TSU was just gonna roll over for them, "yeah we'll show up and win". To TSU's credit, they played like they were going to win the game. That's a lesson this team needs to learn. Yeah, rust, yeah, exam break. Whatever, the team didn't play like a team and they didn't play like they had the urgency of winning.
I think the tell tale sign of this game can be shown with one stat: Luke Kennard- 39 minutes. He's the only one who played well. The rest of the starters played so poorly that K never felt comfortable going to the bench, and nor should he have, as each and every one off the bench played absolutely worthless basketball. Harry Giles, put up the worst looking, most poorly-thought out shot possible. Bolden looked like Jeter from last year. Jeter looked like Jeter from last year. Jackson at least made a shot (ok, 2), but his defensive effort was terrible.
VT is absolutely gonna blow the doors off this team if they come back from their 2nd 10-game layoff playing like this.

A tough week for the guys. Exam week is never easy. Many grades depend on the last set of papers and projects. I expect that there were a few late nights for many of them- particularly the Freshman. They looked a bit sleep deprived.

[DeBlueDevil]

I dunno about the final 15 minutes, but in the last six minutes, we cut over to our "prevent victory" offense and gave up ten points of a 20-point lead. Yeah, I know, we are practicing the delay offense for when it really counts, but we had beaten Tennessee State to a pulp -- the players were exhausted -- and we let the Tigers recover.

Agree w/ Sage. Other than the expected sloppy play after the long layoff, my biggest gripe with this game was final 6 minutes of "stall ball" and uninspired play. Understanding the multiple reasons why K decides to employ this strategy, sometimes I would just like to see us keep the foot on the gas and step on their jugular. Tenn St played very well and although the game was in hand up 20 with 6 to go, why feel the need to not just let guys who won the game for you finish it out? Instead you put Chase and Frank back in, and they immediately continued to make the same mistakes they made all night resulting in a run at the end of the game that left a really bad taste in my mouth (not sure about others). Again, i get the teaching aspect but i see no reason to call the dogs off if you're up 20 in what was a highly competitive game. Beat them by 40 and call it a night. Their starters were still on the floor. Sub those guys in in the last minute when he subs his bench players in. Not a huge deal and i feel i'm being quite picky but it's just something that annoys me every once in a while. Silly fan point i suppose.

[CoachJ10]

After actially getting excited that refs might start calling travels this season, tonight was 3 steps backwards. The amount of steps that Tennesse St got away with was ridiculous. NCAA refs...some zebras dont change their stripes.

[gofurman]

I thought Tennessee State was pretty good. They certainly played hard.

This here folks. Duke couldn't hit the side of a barn for a while but don't diminish TSU. I really didn't like it when people in the pre-game thread were all about how we would win by 30 and Harry and all this. TSU was 8-2. one loss was to NC State in OT. Full of upperclassmen who are athletic and quick on the perimeter - much like the Mercer / VCU types. Smart and well coached. And honestly quite athletic I thought. Through the first 20+ minutes they were grabbing boards w their 6'7 guys and had a guard we couldn't stay in front of. I was getting sick watching that guy penetrate at will. That's not a good sign. Hopefully Giles or Bolden can help w rim protection


Just not seeing it from Bolden yet. He plays five minutes gets two fouls and is gone every game. Which may be fine. Maybe we have him next year. But it would help a lot to play for a deep run this year if he caught on soon. Jester will be good in time (hopefully like Amile). But he isn't NCAA good right now. It needs to be Amile plus Bolden or hopefully Giles to go deep in March

[Billy Dat]

Anyone else catch K smacking the "draw up the play" board out of the manager's hand, right into a startled Matt Jones' stomach? Geez K, wait for the circle of players to close before you start going Knight on these guys, I am shocked it hasn't gone viral. The manager who controls that grease board has a tough job.

[tux]

I feel sorry for Elon.

On another note, holy hell Grayson Allen is kibble for the college basketball truthers on social media. Reasonable minds can disagree about a call, but I think it's pretty clear from video replays that Allen's foot makes contact with a player from Tennessee State while he's driving to the basket for a shot. Some may see it and say "incidental contact," which is a totally fine opinion to have. I saw it and thought "wow, cheap shot" because it looks like the defender lifts up his knee to snag Allen's foot. It's a subjective call either way. Posting that perspective, though, means that you will be told that you're full of I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. and obviously Allen is flopping and should probably be suspended for his ongoing "behavior." I don't know what it is, but his presence brings out the absolute worst in people. I need to get off reddit during game threads. That place is toxic sometimes.

You lost me at "social media"... But you came around to the right idea: the signal-to-noise ratio is very small...

[heyman25]

I will only say this. Marques and Frank need to play a lot if this team is going to reach its potential. Giles goes without saying, but he gets a pass tonight. I'm not one to question the GOAT, but I am scratching my head at what he was thinking for the final 15 minutes of the game tonight...
After we got the lead in double digits. Would it have hurt to let Giles and Bolden play to get in to game shape. Whatever. I agree with Seth Greenberg Kennard and Jefferson are the anchors of this team.Jefferson was 1 for 8 on the foul line(quote from ESPN)That is just plain bad. The shooting at home was really poor. I hope the next game we see more of Giles and Bolden. They need to play to get their game back. I would like to see Allen, Kennard, Tatum ,Giles and Jefferson play at the same time. Jones may be a glue guy, but the stars need to play.Jackson, Bolden, and DeLaurier and Jones can come off the bench.

[Saratoga2]

My takeaways from the game:

They were a very rusty team coming in. We lacked coordination and focus. Part of that may have been the trial of new lineups, which didn't work out.

The free throw shooting was poor.

Matt still is in a shooting slump

We had trouble defending their dribble penetration


My conclusions from this game is that we have 3 players who look like they should get starter minutes. They are Luke, Amile and Justin. How we make up the team will depend on how the coach values the other players.

Clearly Grayson is a likely starter as he plays very hard and can put up significant points. He didn't seem to be ready tonight.

Matt is a very good defender and dependable ball handler, but his scoring potential is worrisome.

Frank is a decent ball handler and is a more versatile scorer than Matt but makes freshman mistakes and his defense is not as good.

When moving onto the bigs, it is hard to see Jeter's contribution as being essential. His defense and rebounding are not that great and he has trouble scoring.

Marquise is big but raw. He could blossom into a valuable inside shot blocker and rebounder with more experience. His offense is limited at this stage.

Harry is intriguing. He hasn't played in a long while and will probably require significant time to become the force that he has the talent to become.

So what starting lineup does coach K aim for going forward? Does he use a combination going forward.

One possibility is as follows: (Small lineup)
Kennard
Jefferson
Tatum
Allen
Jones

Subs: Jackson, Giles, Bolden, Jeter

Another possibility: (Bigger lineup)
Kennard
Jefferson
Tatum
Allen
Giles

Subs:Jones, Bolden, Jackson, Jeter

Coach K appeared to favor Jeter tonight although I didn't think the play justified his choice.

[jipops]

This was the kind of game that makes a team grow up. Mentally we just weren't there for much of the game. And Tenn St is no joke. They are old and they are a tournament team. I feel like a game like tonight will pay dividends down the road.

[Troublemaker]

After we got the lead in double digits. Would it have hurt to let Giles and Bolden play to get in to game shape.

Considering a 20-pt lead became a 10-pt final margin pretty quickly, I would NOT have recommended screwing around with giving Marques and Harry more time when we first pushed the lead into double digits.

This was not a regular cupcake. Tenn St thought they could win tonight. You could tell by the way they quickly called timeouts at every mini-run by Duke. We'd go on like a 4-0 run to tie the game, and boom, Tenn St calls timeout.


I hope the next game we see more of Giles and Bolden. They need to play to get their game back. I would like to see Allen, Kennard, Tatum ,Giles and Jefferson play at the same time. Jones may be a glue guy, but the stars need to play.Jackson, Bolden, and DeLaurier and Jones can come off the bench.

Patience. We are probably several weeks away from seeing Harry start (if it ever happens). Both he and Marques will have to build up gradually. Marques was going to start until the injury but apparently he wasn't able to do any conditioning during his recovery; Coach K said he did "nothing" during that time, so it'll be awhile for him, too. Both Harry and Marques will eventually play significant minutes for Duke, imo, but it's going to build up gradually.

[MrPoon]

Perhaps it is my poor memory but it feels like we come out slow during the exam/holiday breaks so tonight looked very familiar to me as the first half played out. The slow start the the second half after the um... pep talk from coach was a little of a surprise.

I'd love to hear others view but I thought the slow start on offense was also a reflection of the team looking disjointed because they were also thinking about Giles coming in (just like most of us on this board). When Giles and/or Bolden were in, the team seemed to really slow down and look confused. They were almost trying to force the ball and find their position on the team. The lack of team practice as a unit still is readily apparent. I saw what Seth mentioned at the half, Giles didn't look very smooth in his gate. Hopefully that isn't anything more than rust.

Two other items for me, I keep waiting the Bolden of his reputation but it hasn't been on the court but that probably is my fault. There are very brief moments but they are fleeting. I really wanted that jump hook to drop for him. K plays to win and he plays the best guys who are delivering in practice. Clearly Jetter is out performing Bolden, especially on D. I like his desire and he is communicating a lot while on the floor. He's not always executing perfectly but he is clearly a guy who has invested himself in practice and K is rewarding it. Bolden needs to close the gap. However, I think we need either Bolden or Giles (to be who they are hoped to be) to give us substantial minutes for a Championship level rotation but we don't have to have both.

Last point, on offense, if Kennard wasn't KILLING IT, I am convinced that Tatum would have 8 to 10 more a game. Tatum is playing in the flow almost too much. I can hear the half time coaching pushing him and in the second half he steps up and shows how great he can be. I am absolutely in love with his game. For me, he is one of the most obvious NBA players I have ever seen as a Duke freshman. The fluidity, size, pacing, everything. As he gets more fit and more comfortable, holy cow.

Sorry for the run on but at its best this team will be about finding a D weakness and absolutely killing it. One night Kinnard, another Allen, or Tatum or... I have said it here before but I don't know how you coach D against this team.

Still in really great shape despite what we saw tonight. Plus, I suspect we played a tournament level team tonight. If only because of their amazing FT defense!

[NashvilleDevil]

Duke should learn from this. Agree that the freshmen were probably out of sorts after finals, I remember what I was like my first set of finals and I wasn't playing high level college athletics (unless crushing fools in my dorm in ping pong counts?) Duke can continue to work out the kinks against Elon and then get some quality practice before VA Tech.

I'm giving Giles a pass since this is his first competitive game in 14 months, he will get there. I think Bolden is this year's player who will have every call go against him. Jayson, as K said in his press conference, should just do what he does best and that's score.

I know they executed poorly but I think going to stall so early was the right call because TSU could have gotten chippy and no sense getting anyone hurt playing with the pedal to the floor.

[CDu]

I feel sorry for Elon.

On another note, holy hell Grayson Allen is kibble for the college basketball truthers on social media. Reasonable minds can disagree about a call, but I think it's pretty clear from video replays that Allen's foot makes contact with a player from Tennessee State while he's driving to the basket for a shot. Some may see it and say "incidental contact," which is a totally fine opinion to have. I saw it and thought "wow, cheap shot" because it looks like the defender lifts up his knee to snag Allen's foot. It's a subjective call either way. Posting that perspective, though, means that you will be told that you're full of I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. and obviously Allen is flopping and should probably be suspended for his ongoing "behavior." I don't know what it is, but his presence brings out the absolute worst in people. I need to get off reddit during game threads. That place is toxic sometimes.

I saw it differently from you. Yes there was contact. I don't think it was intentional or a cheap shot. I do think it was a foul. I also think Allen embellished it. Allen loves to flail after contact to draw foul calls. I think he oversold how much contact there was, slinging his foot out and letting himself fall afterwards.

So I disagree with Burke (it was a foul) and also with the idea that it was a cheap shot. I also disagree with ESPN's video which suggests he wasn't touched. He flopped a bit, but he was indeed fouled. Just not where folks usually get fouled, which is why Burke and ESPN missed it.

[Troublemaker]

A lot of talk about Chase being ahead of Marques in the rotation. I don't think that's the case. Marques entered the game first, but he played poorly so Coach was forced to go with Chase eventually. I think Marques will continue to enter the game first, and hopefully his play begins to pick up.

[weezie]

I thought Tennessee State was pretty good. They certainly played hard.

Perhaps the most insightful comment on this thread? Indeed they certainly did play well. That's one impressive coach. He kept them from completely coming unglued when the tide turned. Fighters...

[Neals384]

After we got the lead in double digits. Would it have hurt to let Giles and Bolden play to get in to game shape. Whatever. I agree with Seth Greenberg Kennard and Jefferson are the anchors of this team.Jefferson was 1 for 8 on the foul line(quote from ESPN)That is just plain bad. The shooting at home was really poor. I hope the next game we see more of Giles and Bolden. They need to play to get their game back. I would like to see Allen, Kennard, Tatum ,Giles and Jefferson play at the same time. Jones may be a glue guy, but the stars need to play.Jackson, Bolden, and DeLaurier and Jones can come off the bench.

We did! But, as they say about small towns, if you blinked you missed it. 9:25 to 8:56 of the first half.

[jimsumner]

My takeaways from the game:

They were a very rusty team coming in. We lacked coordination and focus. Part of that may have been the trial of new lineups, which didn't work out.

The free throw shooting was poor.

Matt still is in a shooting slump

We had trouble defending their dribble penetration


My conclusions from this game is that we have 3 players who look like they should get starter minutes. They are Luke, Amile and Justin. How we make up the team will depend on how the coach values the other players.

Clearly Grayson is a likely starter as he plays very hard and can put up significant points. He didn't seem to be ready tonight.

Matt is a very good defender and dependable ball handler, but his scoring potential is worrisome.

Frank is a decent ball handler and is a more versatile scorer than Matt but makes freshman mistakes and his defense is not as good.

When moving onto the bigs, it is hard to see Jeter's contribution as being essential. His defense and rebounding are not that great and he has trouble scoring.

Marquise is big but raw. He could blossom into a valuable inside shot blocker and rebounder with more experience. His offense is limited at this stage.

Harry is intriguing. He hasn't played in a long while and will probably require significant time to become the force that he has the talent to become.

So what starting lineup does coach K aim for going forward? Does he use a combination going forward.

One possibility is as follows: (Small lineup)
Kennard
Jefferson
Tatum
Allen
Jones

Subs: Jackson, Giles, Bolden, Jeter

Another possibility: (Bigger lineup)
Kennard
Jefferson
Tatum
Allen
Giles

Subs:Jones, Bolden, Jackson, Jeter

Coach K appeared to favor Jeter tonight although I didn't think the play justified his choice.

You don't think Grayson Allen should get starter minutes but someone named Justin should?

I assume you mean Jayson Tatum and not Justin Robinson.

[Neals384]

I know many of you check the Plus/Minus thread every game. If you're not a regular these, this is one game you should really check. Look for the very top sticky thread, then go to the last post.

[martydoesntfoul]

Perhaps the most insightful comment on this thread? Indeed they certainly did play well. That's one impressive coach. He kept them from completely coming unglued when the tide turned. Fighters...
Agreed. I think a few post-game deep breaths here would be highly beneficial.

[mr. synellinden]

I know many of you check the Plus/Minus thread every game. If you're not a regular these, this is one game you should really check. Look for the very top sticky thread, then go to the last post.

Yes, this is not surprising based on what I saw during the game. I commented on it in the chat. Jefferson is simply indispensable to this team, especially on the defensive end. His importance in terms of leadership and defense is reminiscent of Battier in 2001.

What is surprising is the +\- for Jackson. I thought he looked better than that, but that statistic is pretty compelling.

One other note, Tatum is proving to be an excellent defender. Much better than advertised. He's the complete package. Only issue with his game right now is shot selection. The good shots will come and will start falling more regularly. He just needs to avoid taking bad shots.

[subzero02]

Yes, this is not surprising based on what I saw during the game. I commented on it in the chat. Jefferson is simply indispensable to this team, especially on the defensive end. His importance in terms of leadership and defense is reminiscent of Battier in 2001.

What is surprising is the +\- for Jackson. I thought he looked better than that, but that statistic is pretty compelling.

One other note, Tatum is proving to be an excellent defender. Much better than advertised. He's the complete package. Only issue with his game right now is shot selection. The good shots will come and will start falling more regularly. He just needs to avoid taking bad shots.

I think Tatum and Luke play well together. On one play in particular, Luke did a great job of positioning Tatum and feeding the ball to him in the post( it resulted in a missed turnaround jumper but the sequence was promising). Thus far, the weakest part of Tatum's offensive game appears to be his handles. As a freshman, Kennard's ball handling was such an adventure that I usually started yelling at the TV if he dribbled inside the arc. Hopefully Tatum's issues won't be as extreme.

[FadedTackyShirt]

-Tatum is very good. Took a game or two post-injury, but he's adjusted quickly. Allen (pre-NCAAs) and Kennard looked shaky at times as freshmen, but Tatum's been solid.

-Injuries are never good news, but slightly relieved to hear Frank has only practiced once since Vegas. He was definitely off, but has shown flashes earlier. Still not seeing the potential OAD hype yet.

-Bolden's a lot more problematic. Doesn't make good decisions, plays tentatively, and not great body langauge on the court or bench. Clearly frustrated, but not adding much at this point. Lots of young Duke players have had problems adjusting, but he needs to get his confidence back.

-Tiny sample size, but Giles needs more (rehab or on-court?) time. Not clear what the mental/physical issue mix is, but 4 mins was less than ideal. Hope he gets 10+ mins vs Elon. If not, may not have much of an impact until mid-late January.

-TSU is scrappy. Not a Gregg Marshall fan, but Ford can coach. Will be in the P5 at some point. Would be a good fit at FSU, VPI, or Clemson. Would rather see him in the Big 12, B1G, or SEC.

[dukelifer]

This team is not going to find itself until late January or February. It has all the elements to very good but they are not ready to dominate. Kennard and Jefferson have been the most consistent and that may be enough. We know what Grayson can do and even at 80%, his presence on the floor makes Kennard dangerous. Tatum will get there in time. He has a ton of potential. I think Jackson is a gamer and once the rust is off from the recent layoff- we will see it again. Yesterday was a clunker- and Duke still had a 20 pt lead late. Should be better on Wed.

[Saratoga2]

You don't think Grayson Allen should get starter minutes but someone named Justin should?

I assume you mean Jayson Tatum and not Justin Robinson.

That is true. I did mean Jayson but wrote the input late and after a tough game to watch. Since I think we had three starters playing well or fairly well last night, my view is the coaches need to decide whether the lineup should go big or small. If he plays the guys who are producing first, that leaves 2 slots. If small, Grayson and Matt start the game. Giles may force the idea of a big lineup as the season progresses. With the big lineup, the coaches have to decide between Matt and Grayson. I would pick Grayson personally, but coach K might go with Matt.

[trinity92]

This was not the game to give Giles and Bolden significant burn, even when up 20. Harry looked tentative and TSU was very physical and aggressive-- harry was not going to feel comfortable in there and we can't risk shaking his confidence. say what you will about Jeter, but he has become essential as (to this point) our only reliable big man to back up Jefferson, and i have high hopes for him next year and as a senior. I do believe we won't reach our ceiling this year unless Giles and/or Bolden earn their way ahead of Jetwr in the rotation, but I'm hopeful that happens eventually.

2010 and 2015 teams had games (GTown and NCST respectively, if memory serves) where they looked absolutely lost and awful. At least we found a way to win this one!

Go Duke!

[tux]

-Tatum is very good. Took a game or two post-injury, but he's adjusted quickly. Allen (pre-NCAAs) and Kennard looked shaky at times as freshmen, but Tatum's been solid.

-Injuries are never good news, but slightly relieved to hear Frank has only practiced once since Vegas. He was definitely off, but has shown flashes earlier. Still not seeing the potential OAD hype yet.

-Bolden's a lot more problematic. Doesn't make good decisions, plays tentatively, and not great body langauge on the court or bench. Clearly frustrated, but not adding much at this point. Lots of young Duke players have had problems adjusting, but he needs to get his confidence back.

-Tiny sample size, but Giles needs more (rehab or on-court?) time. Not clear what the mental/physical issue mix is, but 4 mins was less than ideal. Hope he gets 10+ mins vs Elon. If not, may not have much of an impact until mid-late January.

-TSU is scrappy. Not a Gregg Marshall fan, but Ford can coach. Will be in the P5 at some point. Would be a good fit at FSU, VPI, or Clemson. Would rather see him in the Big 12, B1G, or SEC.

I didn't necessarily think Bolden made bad decisions in the game yesterday. He missed a couple close shots, but the whole team was having a hard time getting the ball to drop. I saw him get good position, pass the ball back out to the wing, etc. Amazing how folks can over-react to a cold shooting night.

[WVDUKEFAN]

At this point, I believe Jones is in the starting line up when you have an opponent like Kentucky who has a player like Monk. I think Jones would do a number on him. Is he going to get his 20 pts or so? Maybe. Is he going to score 47? I don't think so. We may see that kind of defense from Tatum when he gets back to 100 percent and more experience, who knows? This is a growing team. They lost the opportunity to play 12 games together due to injuries. We have the best coach in college basketball who WILL have these kids ready when the tournament comes around. They are going to be scary good. They are deeper than any Duke team I can recall. I wouldn't discount a 7 man rotation.

[weezie]

...I need to get off reddit during game threads. That place is toxic sometimes.

Holy smokes! You couldn't be more correct. I blanch at times! :cool:

[sagegrouse]

Right now, it seems that Chase is ahead of Bolden and Giles.


Right? Kind of amazing really.

Chase has played 437 minutes for Duke; Marques has played 33, and Harry has played 4.

[moonpie23]

this is not like a pro team meeting a college team......TSU is a GOOD team that caught us napping at first, then, not respecting the opponent. It was like we thought they were going to roll over....

The pressure on Harry's debut psyched out everyone (except TSU). I would imagine he's feeling a lot of pressure to, not only play well, but to play safe....



let's see how this dynamic works against elon....

[sagegrouse]

I know they executed poorly but I think going to stall so early was the right call because TSU could have gotten chippy and no sense getting anyone hurt playing with the pedal to the floor.

I have a different interpretation. Up 20 with six minutes to go, we applied "Duke doctrine" and slowed down the game, like we always do. In this case, I think we should have kept the pedal to the medal (did I just type that?) and worked off the rest of our rust. As Coach might say, we'll need to execute the "delay offense" better when we get to tough conference games. Well, maybe.

[OldPhiKap]

Chase has played 437 minutes for Duke; Marques has played 33, and Harry has played 4.

Exactly. And Chase has played well this season too for the most part. He has earned the minutes he has, and I am sure he plans to compete for playing time as he should.

I hope my post was not taken as a negative towards any of the three players, certainly not intended to be. Chase is ahead of those other two at present. Marques and Harry are essentially playing freshman exhibition games while the rest of the team is in late December mode.

[DukieInBrasil]

Exactly. And Chase has played well this season too for the most part. He has earned the minutes he has, and I am sure he plans to compete for playing time as he should.

I hope my post was not taken as a negative towards any of the three players, certainly not intended to be. Chase is ahead of those other two at present. Marques and Harry are essentially playing freshman exhibition games while the rest of the team is in late December mode.

I wouldn't say Jeter has played well, he has arguably played better than our other C/PF options not named Amile (and for the last 4 games, Jayson). Jeter has at times played better than he did last year, but he rebounds very poorly for a "big" and still has very little to offer on offense.
Against Duke's weaker opponents this year, Chase played serviceable ball. Against better teams he hasn't played well at all, more so recently.

[Troublemaker]

With the big lineup, the coaches have to decide between Matt and Grayson. I would pick Grayson personally, but coach K might go with Matt.

lol, so paranoid


Exactly. And Chase has played well this season too for the most part. He has earned the minutes he has, and I am sure he plans to compete for playing time as he should.

I hope my post was not taken as a negative towards any of the three players, certainly not intended to be. Chase is ahead of those other two at present. Marques and Harry are essentially playing freshman exhibition games while the rest of the team is in late December mode.

Chase is ahead in quality of play and familiarity with the systems, but he's not ahead in the rotation. Both Marques and Harry got in the game before Chase and I wouldn't be surprised if that continued because Coach K knows those two have higher upsides than Chase for this season. Simply put, if Marques and Harry had played well, I'm not sure Chase would've entered the game until garbage time.

[Troublemaker]

I didn't necessarily think Bolden made bad decisions in the game yesterday. He missed a couple close shots, but the whole team was having a hard time getting the ball to drop. I saw him get good position, pass the ball back out to the wing, etc. Amazing how folks can over-react to a cold shooting night.

I agree more than disagree. I wish that lefty hook that was in and out had gone down for him. But he did airball a drop step and he misplayed a ball screen on the other end as well, which led to a layup. But I thought decision-making was fine for the most part. Marques is closer to giving good minutes than Harry (as one might expect); I continue to be excited by Marques' potential, and I hope he gets back to his pre-injury level soon. That level was one where many of us thought he looked like a starting center, including Coach K.

[BD80]

The most encouraging take-away from this game for me is that finals are over and we are now healthy enough as a team to run full contact 5 on 5 scrimmages.

Say what you want about "game experience" and getting "game conditioning," but our full squad practices are where the real learning and the real conditioning occurs.

There are few, if any, non-con opponents we could schedule that could give our starters the level of competition our second 5 could give. Balance the teams a bit, and there will be some serious basketball being played before the conference opener without any academic distractions.

I fully support Coach K's attitude about playing few players until the very end. He plays the players who are playing winning basketball - valuing each possession, playing team defense each and every possession for the opponent. A player demonstrates his readiness for that level of play IN PRACTICE, and must maintain that level in a game or he sits. To win at the highest level, every player must completely understand that he must play winning basketball every moment he is on the court, there is NO time in a real game for practice or conditioning. A game is for winning. Period.

[jv001]

I think many of us Duke fans thought this game would be a blow out. I didn't feel that way because one of my best friends is a Wolfpack fan and he saw TSU play well enough to win against his team. I really believe we'll see them make the NCAAT. They play tough physical defense and are athletic. It looked like they had a game plan to foul Amile every time he went to the basket and that part worked as he shot 1-8 from the line. As for our guys, we looked sluggish(exams?) and out of sorts. Even Luke with an excellent game, had 4 turnovers and some bad defense. I can't remember seeing so many shots rim out for us and our free throw shooting was not up to par. I'm looking for a better showing against an Elon team that is known for it's physical play. Well, in past years anyway. GoDuke!

[MChambers]

As others have said, the Plus/Minus really does tell the story of this game. K decided to go with the four vets, plus Tatum, when he saw the results with the other players. I thought Doris was essentially right when she said K decided to match Tennessee State's experience.

I don't agree with folks who thought the team was uninspired. I instead thought everyone was out of sync, and showed a lack of practice and conditioning, especially Giles, Jackson, and Bolden. It's easy to forget that these guys are college freshmen who just went through finals. I foolishly thought the latter three would look good, but I now realize that was completely unrealistic.

I wish Matt Jones could hit the broad side of a barn, but he contributes in many other ways, so he's going to be on the floor most of the time. I'm optimistic that his shot will return in 2017.

I'm not surprised that the defensive rating for the game was good, because of who was on the floor most of the game. K went with our best defensive five, at least now.

Tatum did a lot of good things, but in the first half I thought he took too many difficult shots, which contributed to the team's offensive struggles. In the second half he drove more, and he's going to fouled a lot when he does that.

[MrPoon]

I found myself waiving at the tv all night especially after D rebounds. With the depth, versatility, and athleticism of this team I am surprised we are advancing the ball at a slow pace. I got it early where depth due to injuries was an issue but I'd love to see more urgency in advancing the ball. Especially against a grinding defense who wanted to keep the score low. Hopefully that is also coming with more practice.

[BluDvlsN1]

As Fans, It’s not the game we wanted to see
As a team, thats the game they needed to experience.

If we run them out of the gym with a UNLV performance, it could leave
the team believing we’re there, as opposed to what do we have to do
to improve.

Many of our Freshmen and still maybe even Jeter are used to dominating
at the HS level, they’ve jumped on a fast moving NCAA treadmill and are
still gaining their balance. There may be more games like last night, because
there are a lot of TSU’s and more, out there. Parity.

If we stop and think about it, it was a team of many 5th year seniors that
were seasoned, and unafraid. Most of those guys were playing college ball,
when our freshmen we just starting high school.

What we saw last night was a mature, experienced, very well coached team,
exactly what we needed. If TSU would have been able to move their 3 ball shooting
from abysmal to poor or average. We could be licking some emotional wounds
today also.

Sure we’re 11-1, coulda shoulda, been 12-0, that’s another story.

We’ve accomplished what we have firing on 4.5 and at times 3.5 cylinders.
Last night for the first time we had 8 cylinders, it’s going to get tuned up,
and the team and staff has the time, to make it happen.

In reality last night was the first game of the season.
There is a lot of work to do on defense, weak side help, perimeter defense
to cite a couple of examples.

Offensively, that speaks for itself so far, with glimpses of court spacing, passing
ball movement, and penetration, finding the open man, brilliance.

We will gradually see all 8 cylinders fire in game play, then watch out
because this team is equipped with a turbo charged option.

We’ve seen it before in 2011 with Kyrie, We learn how to play and get
synced during the season, and go to the west regionals with
Kyrie (the turbo charge option) and the chemistry changes.
If your a coach and have that option, you flip that switch 100 times out of 100.
Arizona was good, Williams was great that day.
We were out of sync a tad.

What is different this year is time and practice is on our side, when these
guys go 5 v 5 hard in practice, it’s going to come together, the Coaches saw it
pre season and made comments about it.
I would pay to see these practices.

When K and the staff fine tune this team, and the turbo charge switch is activated.
Fasten the seat belts.

[Troublemaker]

I think many of us Duke fans thought this game would be a blow out. I didn't feel that way because one of my best friends is a Wolfpack fan and he saw TSU play well enough to win against his team. I really believe we'll see them make the NCAAT. They play tough physical defense and are athletic.



I don't agree with folks who thought the team was uninspired. I instead thought everyone was out of sync, and showed a lack of practice and conditioning, especially Giles, Jackson, and Bolden. It's easy to forget that these guys are college freshmen who just went through finals. I foolishly thought the latter three would look good, but I now realize that was completely unrealistic.

I agree with you guys. I do think some are reacting like this was an 'F' performance when really it was more like a 'C' performance. The huge run to go from a 2-pt deficit in the 2nd half to a 20-pt lead was very fun and inspired. Tatum is really coming along well and frankly looks like a vet out there most of the time, and the vets themselves are playing well (even though, yes, Matt needs to hit his open shots better). Harry got his feet wet, which we should all be thrilled about, and he and Marques will build and get there in time.

[jimsumner]

That is true. I did mean Jayson but wrote the input late and after a tough game to watch. Since I think we had three starters playing well or fairly well last night, my view is the coaches need to decide whether the lineup should go big or small. If he plays the guys who are producing first, that leaves 2 slots. If small, Grayson and Matt start the game. Giles may force the idea of a big lineup as the season progresses. With the big lineup, the coaches have to decide between Matt and Grayson. I would pick Grayson personally, but coach K might go with Matt.

There is absolutely zero chance that a healthy Grayson Allen comes off the bench.

[FerryFor50]

I agree with you guys. I do think some are reacting like this was an 'F' performance when really it was more like a 'C' performance. The huge run to go from a 2-pt deficit in the 2nd half to a 20-pt lead was very fun and inspired. Tatum is really coming along well and frankly looks like a vet out there most of the time, and the vets themselves are playing well (even though, yes, Matt needs to hit his open shots better). Harry got his feet wet, which we should all be thrilled about, and he and Marques will build and get there in time.

Agreed. While Tenn St is a good, solid team that played with a lot of energy, there were a ton of shots that were either wide open or good looks that just didn't fall unless your name was Luke or Jayson.

Hard to be too disappointed with a win over a solid team that was never really in doubt down the stretch.

[Ichabod Drain]

Agreed. While Tenn St is a good, solid team that played with a lot of energy, there were a ton of shots that were either wide open or good looks that just didn't fall unless your name was Luke or Jayson.

Hard to be too disappointed with a win over a solid team that was never really in doubt down the stretch.

Even Jayson was 4-11.

[elvis14]

I found myself waiving at the tv all night especially after D rebounds. With the depth, versatility, and athleticism of this team I am surprised we are advancing the ball at a slow pace. I got it early where depth due to injuries was an issue but I'd love to see more urgency in advancing the ball. Especially against a grinding defense who wanted to keep the score low. Hopefully that is also coming with more practice.

This is where I miss Tyus Stones the most. He had a great feel for when to push it. With a team like TSU that plays such good defense, I thought we wasted multiple opportunities to push the ball and get easy scores with numbers. One of the things I like best about Tatum so far is that when he comes down with a rebound his first thought is to push the ball with pace. Think about what Tyus did to UVa...

[Jeffrey]

There is absolutely zero chance that a healthy Grayson Allen comes off the bench.

IMO, if all players are healthy and game ready, then there should be a zero chance Matt does not come off the bench.

[Jeffrey]

One of the things I like best about Tatum so far is that when he comes down with a rebound his first thought is to push the ball with pace.

Agreed, reminds me of Winslow in December. Here's hoping he reminds us of Winslow in March. I think that's very possible.

[Billy Dat]

This is where I miss Tyus Stones the most. He had a great feel for when to push it. With a team like TSU that plays such good defense, I thought we wasted multiple opportunities to push the ball and get easy scores with numbers. One of the things I like best about Tatum so far is that when he comes down with a rebound his first thought is to push the ball with pace. Think about what Tyus did to UVa...

I agree with your points about Tatum, whenever he grabs a board, I am yelling for him to push it. I loved how Jabari used to do that from the 3/4 spot. Brandon was known to dabble that way, too.

[uh_no]

IMO, if all players are healthy and game ready, then there should be a zero chance Matt does not come off the bench.

in yet... in k's career, he's always down a propensity to start upper classmen if he can. so long as Matt is playing good d, and he is, he's not moving to the bench. k values senior leadership far too highly.

[MChambers]

IMO, if all players are healthy and game ready, then there should be a zero chance Matt does not come off the bench.

I doubt that. Matt's a winner, and the team needs his defense. It's got plenty of scoring.

[NYBri]

There is absolutely zero chance that a healthy Grayson Allen comes off the bench.

Is there such a thing as less than zero chance? If so, that is even more accurate.

[MChambers]

in yet... in k's career, he's always down a propensity to start upper classmen if he can. so long as Matt is playing good d, and he is, he's not moving to the bench. k values senior leadership far too highly.

While I think Matt will start and play a lot, it's not because he's a senior. It's because he does a lot of things well that don't show up in the box score.

Coach K has been willing to reduce the role of seniors who aren't playing well. See, for example, Koubek (but he improved his play last in his senior year) and Greg Paulus. Also see two of our coaches, Capel and James, who saw their roles reduced. Nate's role was reduced as part of Coach K's retooling following Boozer's injury, of course.

[NYBri]

This is where I miss Tyus Stones the most. He had a great feel for when to push it. With a team like TSU that plays such good defense, I thought we wasted multiple opportunities to push the ball and get easy scores with numbers. One of the things I like best about Tatum so far is that when he comes down with a rebound his first thought is to push the ball with pace. Think about what Tyus did to UVa...

The only catch in this is that our guards like to rebound and they do it well. Even Frank with his nasty put-back in Vegas was indicative of that mindset.

Hard to go out on the break when your guards are glass-crashing.

[kAzE]

IMO, if all players are healthy and game ready, then there should be a zero chance Matt does not come off the bench.

I'd actually say the opposite . . . there's almost 0 chance Matt comes off the bench. Basketball is not about putting the 5 most talented players on the court. It's about putting the 5 guys who compliment each other to create the best and most complete group together. It's like Coach K says: 5 fingers create a fist. You can't just put 5 scorers on the floor and expect good results, just like it doesn't help to have 4 thumbs and an index finger. You gotta have everything.

Matt is not one of the 5 most talented guys on this team. He's probably not even one of the 8 most talented guys. But he's a specialist, and he specializes in a few things that nobody else on the team brings to the table. He fills in the holes that our other players have in their game. And Coach K trusts him. Every team needs a glue guy to bring it all together, and that's Matt. Once his outside shot starts falling again (and it will), the doubters will start to quiet down. He'll be on the floor as much as anyone.

I think Luke and Matt will be the #1 and #2 guys for minutes played at the end of the year (so the same as it's been). They are the best offensive and best defensive players on the team, respectively.

[Jeffrey]

While I think Matt will start and play a lot, it's not because he's a senior. It's because he does a lot of things well that don't show up in the box score.


Thanks, saved me the post, the best players play.

I understand your point/post, but who are you going to sit down to start Matt? I'd start Grayson, Luke, Jayson, Amile, and Harry (when game ready).

[devilseven]

I was at the game. I believe that we would have won by 30-40 if we hadn't went to the delay. Tennessee State was ready for it and it gave them a chance to catch their breath. We had them on their heels and we should have kept our foot on their throats.

[Jeffrey]

I'd actually say the opposite . . . there's almost 0 chance Matt comes off the bench. Basketball is not about putting the 5 most talented players on the court. It's about putting the 5 guys who compliment each other to create the best and most complete group together. It's like Coach K says: 5 fingers create a fist. You can't just put 5 scorers on the floor and expect good results, just like it doesn't help to have 4 thumbs and an index finger. You gotta have everything.

Matt is not one of the 5 most talented guys on this team. He's probably not even one of the 8 most talented guys. But he's a specialist, and he specializes in a few things that nobody else on the team brings to the table. He fills in the holes that our other players have in their game. And Coach K trusts him. Every team needs a glue guy to bring it all together, and that's Matt. Once his outside shot starts falling again (and it will), the doubters will start to quiet down. He'll be on the floor as much as anyone.

I think Luke and Matt will be the #1 and #2 guys for minutes played at the end of the year (so the same as it's been). They are the best offensive and best defensive players on the team, respectively. I guess for my fist analogy, that would make Luke the thumb and Matt the pinky :)

IMO, Amile is also a glue guy providing great leadership.

I think, when healthy, Grayson will have more minutes than Matt.

This sure is an awesome concern!

[Troublemaker]

I do think Matt comes off the bench if/when Duke is predominantly playing a big lineup, but we're probably not going to see that any time soon. For example, when we travel to VaTech in 11 days, I would expect the Amile-at-center lineup to get most of the work. The Hokies play small, and I don't think Coach will believe that Marques/Harry can win an "our size vs your speed" tradeoff battle at this point in their development. And historically, he usually goes small to match small opponents like VaTech anyway; Marques and Harry being behind the curve only solidifies that judgement.

[Indoor66]

I do think Matt comes off the bench if/when Duke is predominantly playing a big lineup, but we're probably not going to see that any time soon. For example, when we travel to VaTech in 11 days, I would expect the Amile-at-center lineup to get most of the work. The Hokies play small, and I don't think Coach will believe that Marques/Harry can win an "our size vs your speed" tradeoff battle at this point in their development. And historically, he usually goes small to match small opponents like VaTech anyway; Marques and Harry being behind the curve only solidifies that judgement.

Hammer meet nail. Last night demonstrated how far behind the curve both of them are. They will not start for quite a while.

[kAzE]

IMO, Amile is also a glue guy providing great leadership.

I think, when healthy, Grayson will have more minutes than Matt.

This sure is an awesome concern!

Grayson might start playing more than Matt, but I was saying Luke and Matt will have the most minutes played. Matt already has a huge lead on Grayson, one that he probably won't relinquish unless he gets hurt (knock on wood).

[Jeffrey]

Grayson might start playing more than Matt, but I was saying Luke and Matt will have the most minutes played. Matt already has a huge lead on Grayson, one that he probably won't relinquish unless he gets hurt (knock on wood).

Trying to predict future injuries was not my point. My initial post was...


IMO, if all players are healthy and game ready, then there should be a zero chance Matt does not come off the bench.


Obviously, Harry is a long way from game ready. But, when he is, I'd usually start Grayson, Luke, Jayson, Amile, and Harry. Who are you sitting down to start Matt?

[Spanarkel]

The most encouraging take-away from this game for me is that finals are over and we are now healthy enough as a team to run full contact 5 on 5 scrimmages.

Say what you want about "game experience" and getting "game conditioning," but our full squad practices are where the real learning and the real conditioning occurs.

There are few, if any, non-con opponents we could schedule that could give our starters the level of competition our second 5 could give. Balance the teams a bit, and there will be some serious basketball being played before the conference opener without any academic distractions.


Significant learning obviously does take place in "full squad practices," but there are many important lessons that just have to be learned in actual games. For instance, how does the current Duke squad practice against a lightning quick 5'10" guard with NBA range? We simply don't have one on this year's team, and I doubt Coach K is bringing in alumni players(during the season) as Nick Saban did this year at Alabama. Secondly, as our second 5 is both very young and recuperating from various ailments at this time, I contend that there are numerous non-conference foes that could challenge our starters better than our second 5(not to diminish the potential of our younger team members to contribute to the program in time).

[rsvman]

I was at the game. I believe that we would have won by 30-40 if we hadn't went to the delay. Tennessee State was ready for it and it gave them a chance to catch their breath. We had them on their heels and we should have kept our foot on their throats.

Why? What difference does it make if we win by ten or by thirty? It's like if you have a ten-foot birdie putt that in one scenario goes right into the center of the hole with authority and in another scenario drifts off to the side of the hole and is losing speed, but in the end it drops in the side. In either case, you got a birdie, and the score you write on the card is the same.

Coach K takes his foot of the gas for a reason. The players need to learn how to do it now so that those putts keep dropping in when it really matters.

There are no style points in basketball.

[NYBri]

Why? What difference does it make if we win by ten or by thirty? ....
There are no style points in basketball.

Sadly, there are style points.

Two words...Selection Committee.

[Kedsy]

Tennessee State is approximately a #14 seed, though not Mercer-good (based on their Pomeroy rank, Mercer should probably have been a #13 seed). While it's true that beating a #14 at home by 10 points isn't our best performance, it's also true we were winning by 20 with 6:29 to play. If we'd held the lead and won by a final margin of 20+, would anyone be complaining about how poorly we played?

Our three point shooting was less than one make short of average for us this season (33.3% vs. 36.1%). Other than Amile, our free throw shooting was about one make short of average for us this season. What we did poorly this game was shoot two-pointers (40.7% vs. our season average of 56.0%). Interestingly enough, Tennessee State is 36th in the nation at opponents' two-point percentage (42.5%), so perhaps our two-point shooting woes did not come out of the blue (or from a lack of effort, which I don't agree was the case). TSU is also 9th in the nation at opposing free throw percentage -- go figure.

One thing we did very well in this game was defensive rebounding. Tennessee State is a pretty good offensive rebounding team (with an offensive rebounding percentage of 37.5% coming into the game, probably top 50 nationally). We allowed them to grab less than 13% of available offensive rebounds (4 of 31).

Regarding the plus/minus, in a game with an 8.5 minute stretch in which Duke outscored its opponent by 22 and a near end-of-game stretch of 5:12 in which the opponent outscored us by 10, I'm not sure the plus/minus tells us much more than who was playing during those two stretches. For example, it's possible that Frank's plus/minus was that bad largely because he played most of the last 6 minutes, while we were playing stall ball.


Agree w/ Sage. Other than the expected sloppy play after the long layoff, my biggest gripe with this game was final 6 minutes of "stall ball" and uninspired play. Understanding the multiple reasons why K decides to employ this strategy, sometimes I would just like to see us keep the foot on the gas and step on their jugular. Tenn St played very well and although the game was in hand up 20 with 6 to go, why feel the need to not just let guys who won the game for you finish it out? Instead you put Chase and Frank back in, and they immediately continued to make the same mistakes they made all night resulting in a run at the end of the game that left a really bad taste in my mouth (not sure about others). Again, i get the teaching aspect but i see no reason to call the dogs off if you're up 20 in what was a highly competitive game. Beat them by 40 and call it a night. Their starters were still on the floor. Sub those guys in in the last minute when he subs his bench players in. Not a huge deal and i feel i'm being quite picky but it's just something that annoys me every once in a while. Silly fan point i suppose.

The arguments for and against stall ball have been made ad nauseam on this board.

As far as playing our starters vs. not, our starters played 29, 31, 33, 35, and 39 minutes in the game. During the 5:12 stretch toward the end of the game in which Tennessee State outscored us by 10, our five starters played for 2:36 and three starters plus our 6th and 7th men played 2:36. I'd hardly call that "call[ing] the dogs off."


Since I think we had three starters playing well or fairly well last night, my view is the coaches need to decide whether the lineup should go big or small. If he plays the guys who are producing first, that leaves 2 slots. If small, Grayson and Matt start the game. Giles may force the idea of a big lineup as the season progresses. With the big lineup, the coaches have to decide between Matt and Grayson. I would pick Grayson personally, but coach K might go with Matt.

I agree with Jim Sumner. Grayson is going to start. I also think basing who starts on who played "well or fairly well" in one game doesn't make sense. For the season, other than shooting percentage, Grayson's numbers are very close to Luke's. And that's while Grayson was playing injured for the majority of the games.


...our free throw shooting was not up to par.

Really, it was just Amile's free throw shooting that was not up to par. The non-Amile portion of our team shot 75% from the line, which is pretty close to what our non-Amile portion has shot from the line for the season (77.6%).

[rsvman]

Sadly, there are style points.

Two words...Selection Committee.

Kind of, but if we win all our games by small margins, we still get a one seed.

[BD80]

... The non-Amile portion of our team shot 75% from the line, which is pretty close to what our non-Amile portion has shot from the line for the season (77.6%).

Grayson - 65%. Below par. Below what this team needs from Grayson.

[kAzE]

Trying to predict future injuries was not my point. My initial post was...

I think you missed the point of my post. To date, Matt has played 409 minutes this season. Grayson has played 354. I was just saying there's almost no way Grayson will overtake him unless Matt gets hurt. (again knock on wood)


Obviously, Harry is a long way from game ready. But, when he is, I'd usually start Grayson, Luke, Jayson, Amile, and Harry. Who are you sitting down to start Matt?

It's not my decision, but I'd bring Harry off the bench. I'm not sure he's going to get to 100% this year. If he does, we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

[uh_no]

Grayson - 65%. Below par. Below what this team needs from Grayson.

a 2 FT deviation out of 11 is well within reason. He had one such game last year vs uva.....that one turned out alright. He also had a 14-19, 4-6, 1-3....he's shooting 81% on the year, yes below his career average, but fair given his injury has clearly affected his shot...either directly or through lack of practice.

There are 20 other things I'd worry about in last night's game before grayson's FT shooting.

[Kedsy]

Kind of, but if we win all our games by small margins, we still get a one seed.

Yeah, I'll be really surprised if the selection committee penalizes Duke for "only" beating a (probable) NCAA tournament team by 10 points in a post-exam game in December.


Grayson - 65%. Below par. Below what this team needs from Grayson.

I guess. But if he'd hit one more free throw it would have been 73%. Two more, 82%. So, basically, Grayson's below par FT performance in this game comes from his oh for two free throw visit at the end of the first half. I'm giving him a pass.

[Jeffrey]

It's not my decision, but I'd bring Harry off the bench. I'm not sure he's going to get to 100% this year. If he does, we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

IMO, many teams will be crossing that bridge with you. Now that we know he is willing, I have no doubt our coaching staff will get him ready and able.

[NYBri]

Yeah, I'll be really surprised if the selection committee penalizes Duke for "only" beating a (probable) NCAA tournament team by 10 points in a post-exam game in December.


I was responding to rsvman's statement that there are no style points in basketball...and, sadly, there are. All you need for proof of that is to listen to all the talk of "resume" come selection time and you know there are, indeed, style points.

Whether we beat an NCAA team by 10 or 30 at home DOES matter to the committee. Especially if we are on the bubble for a #1 seed. May not matter much, but it WILL be looked at.

I agree that in this case it wouldn't matter much, but the conversation was about the stall ball that took a potential 20 or 30 point win to 10 and looking bad in the process didn't matter. If we keep doing that, the negative style points will add up, and it will matter, to some extent, to the committee.

[Kedsy]

I was responding to rsvman's statement that there are no style points in basketball...and, sadly, there are. All you need for proof of that is to listen to all the talk of "resume" come selection time and you know there are, indeed, style points.

Whether we beat an NCAA team by 10 or 30 at home DOES matter to the committee. Especially if we are on the bubble for a #1 seed. May not matter much, but it WILL be looked at.

I agree that in this case it wouldn't matter much, but the conversation was about the stall ball that took a potential 20 or 30 point win to 10 and looking bad in the process didn't matter. If we keep doing that, the negative style points will add up, and it will matter, to some extent, to the committee.

We don't really know what's looked at and what isn't. The "talk" we hear at selection time comes from reporters and ESPN. And even then, they generally talk about "good wins" and "bad losses." It's possible I've missed it, but I've never heard an actual member of the committee say they look at margin of victory at all. I'm not convinced that it matters or that the committee will look at it, even a little bit.

I suppose there could be an indirect consequence in how the margin of victory affects Duke's rating in systems like Pomeroy or Sagarin, but (a) far as I know, the committee's go-to rating is still RPI, which doesn't even look at margin of victory; and (b) a 10 point difference in one particular game probably won't move Duke's needle in those kinds of rating system enough to be noticeable.

[NYBri]

The "talk" we hear at selection time comes from reporters and ESPN.

Not to drone on about this, but since we are in the middle of December....:cool:

I have seen interviews with members of the selection committee talking about their choices and they all have made references to the mystical, "Resume." And they have spoken about comparative wins. ie. how teams fair against the same opponent, strength of schedule, home vs. away, margin of victory in some cases, time of year, etc.

The statement I was responding to was, "There are no style points in basketball." As pointed out above, I believe there are.

If it were all just W's and L's and those other factors (what I call style points) didn't count, then there is no need for a selection committees. It would become a simple matter of math. Those with the best records gets in, like the NFL wild card...which truly doesn't have style points...just won-loss.

I agree that last night's game won't matter in the larger scheme of things, but accumulatively those "Style Points" add up.

[Spanarkel]

I'd actually say the opposite . . . there's almost 0 chance Matt comes off the bench. Basketball is not about putting the 5 most talented players on the court. It's about putting the 5 guys who compliment each other to create the best and most complete group together. It's like Coach K says: 5 fingers create a fist. You can't just put 5 scorers on the floor and expect good results, just like it doesn't help to have 4 thumbs and an index finger. You gotta have everything.

Matt is not one of the 5 most talented guys on this team. He's probably not even one of the 8 most talented guys. But he's a specialist, and he specializes in a few things that nobody else on the team brings to the table. He fills in the holes that our other players have in their game. And Coach K trusts him. Every team needs a glue guy to bring it all together, and that's Matt. Once his outside shot starts falling again (and it will), the doubters will start to quiet down. He'll be on the floor as much as anyone.

I think Luke and Matt will be the #1 and #2 guys for minutes played at the end of the year (so the same as it's been). They are the best offensive and best defensive players on the team, respectively.


Your predictions in last month's "Minutes Played" contest: Allen 31, Jefferson 30, Kennard 27, Tatum 26, and Jones 24.

[kAzE]

Your predictions in last month's "Minutes Played" contest: Allen 31, Jefferson 30, Kennard 27, Tatum 26, and Jones 24.

You really brought up my preseason predictions in this thread? LOL come on.

[Spanarkel]

You really brought up my preseason predictions in this thread? LOL come on.


Sorry, that was eons ago.

[rsvman]

Not to drone on about this, but since we are in the middle of December...:cool:

I have seen interviews with members of the selection committee talking about their choices and they all have made references to the mystical, "Resume." And they have spoken about comparative wins. ie. how teams fair against the same opponent, strength of schedule, home vs. away, margin of victory in some cases, time of year, etc.

The statement I was responding to was, "There are no style points in basketball." As pointed out above, I believe there are.

If it were all just W's and L's and those other factors (what I call style points) didn't count, then there is no need for a selection committees. It would become a simple matter of math. Those with the best records gets in, like the NFL wild card...which truly doesn't have style points...just won-loss.

I agree that last night's game won't matter in the larger scheme of things, but accumulatively those "Style Points" add up.

Style points are mostly about the level of competition, not the margin of victory.

And small wins are still wins. Every win counts in the win column. If we continue to win, margin of victory won't enter into the equation in the slightest. Quality of the victory is the style issue. In other words, Kentucky's win over Carolina earns a lot of style points even though it was only a 3-point win.

A LOSS to Tennessee State would hurt us, for sure, because wins and losses is the first thing the selection committee looks at. They have to consider strength of schedule, because otherwise a team could just schedule the Sunset Old Folks' Home and the like and win every game. Beyond that, there's not a lot of "style" taken into consideration. They do consider road wins and home losses, but again the outcome of interest is did you win or did you lose.

[AtlDuke72]

Agreed. I think a few post-game deep breaths here would be highly beneficial.

Tennessee State lost to NC State in overtime. Why would you expect to run them out of the gym? The obvious reason why it is fair game on Grayson Allen is that he is a white kid that plays for Duke. One final comment, does Doris Burke get paid by the word? She never shuts up.

[DukieInBrasil]

I guess one thing that surprised me in last night's game was about Giles: that he didn't appear to post up or even really try to get deep post position. At 6'10, that seems like something he'd want to do against a somewhat smaller team, or something that K would design a play for.
I know that rumor has it that Giles has a good outside game, even if not all the way to the 3pt line (maybe even the 3 as well?).
Anyway, i was surprised that the only time he really looked to score was on a terrible shot, perhaps the lowest value shot in all of basketball, a very long 2pt shot that was moderately well defended.
I understand that that shot does not define him as a player, and that he will take many other, and other types of, shots while at Duke.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I guess one thing that surprised me in last night's game was about Giles: that he didn't appear to post up or even really try to get deep post position. At 6'10, that seems like something he'd want to do against a somewhat smaller team, or something that K would design a play for.
I know that rumor has it that Giles has a good outside game, even if not all the way to the 3pt line (maybe even the 3 as well?).
Anyway, i was surprised that the only time he really looked to score was on a terrible shot, perhaps the lowest value shot in all of basketball, a very long 2pt shot that was moderately well defended.
I understand that that shot does not define him as a player, and that he will take many other, and other types of, shots while at Duke.
Um, he hasn't played in over a year. It's going to take him some time to get his rhythm and touch back. Don't you think?

[uh_no]

I guess one thing that surprised me in last night's game was about Giles: that he didn't appear to post up or even really try to get deep post position. At 6'10, that seems like something he'd want to do against a somewhat smaller team, or something that K would design a play for.
I know that rumor has it that Giles has a good outside game, even if not all the way to the 3pt line (maybe even the 3 as well?).
Anyway, i was surprised that the only time he really looked to score was on a terrible shot, perhaps the lowest value shot in all of basketball, a very long 2pt shot that was moderately well defended.
I understand that that shot does not define him as a player, and that he will take many other, and other types of, shots while at Duke.

given how long he's been off the court, and the injuries he's had, I can completely understand his not wanting to tangle with those foul-hungry elbow-swingin' shaq-diculous wanna-be's in the post. Just like Jayson, he'll need some time to warm up again....and likely more, given the time off.

[MChambers]

TSU is also 9th in the nation at opposing free throw percentage -- go figure.

Were the TSU players cracking their knuckles? What's their secret?

[devildeac]

Were the TSU players cracking their knuckles? What's their secret?

Well, our warm-ups just prior to the start of the game were delayed by the event staff replacing the net on the basket just in front of the band so Ozzie and I blamed our 1st half shooting FG and FT woes on the net making the rim too tight :rolleyes: .

I thought our FT defense in the 2nd half was pretty good, likely due to the above-mentioned rim being too tight on their end for the 2nd half and the Santa's Butt cheer the grad students, band and Santa started when TSU shot some of their FT. Double :rolleyes:

[Kedsy]

I guess one thing that surprised me in last night's game was about Giles: that he didn't appear to post up or even really try to get deep post position. At 6'10, that seems like something he'd want to do against a somewhat smaller team, or something that K would design a play for.

He played four minutes. Maybe if he'd played eight minutes we might have seen some of that.

[Saratoga2]

There is absolutely zero chance that a healthy Grayson Allen comes off the bench.

Then if Giles is great, who would you not start?

Matt, Luke, Jayson, Amile

i would make Matt the 6th man in that case, which may be improbable.

[Ichabod Drain]

Then if Giles is great, who would you not start?

Matt, Luke, Jayson, Amile

i would make Matt the 6th man in that case, which may be improbable.

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth" - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

[Lar77]

Well, our warm-ups just prior to the start of the game were delayed by the event staff replacing the net on the basket just in front of the band so Ozzie and I blamed our 1st half shooting FG and FT woes on the net making the rim too tight :rolleyes: .

I thought our FT defense in the 2nd half was pretty good, likely due to the above-mentioned rim being too tight on their end for the 2nd half and the Santa's Butt cheer the grad students, band and Santa started when TSU shot some of their FT. Double :rolleyes:

Talk about pressure: you're on a ladder trying to replace the net when the band starts playing and Duke takes the floor for final warm-ups!!!!!!

Other than ESPN dictates, I don't understand why the game couldn't have been delayed a couple of minutes.

And definitely the rim was too tight. (the Santa butt was pretty good)

On another note, TSU lost to State by 12 so State must be better than us? Oh yeah, State was down 15 and Dennis Smith had to hit a running 1 hander from 12 feet out to send the game into overtime. TSU is very good and well-coached. Dadgummit, who calls timeouts to let your team regroup? Our run in the second half was scary good - defense leading to offense.

Wasn't bothered by stall ball. We had the game won and it was time to practice some concepts. Unless you had Duke giving 28, no reason to be bothered. And based on last night we need to work on it.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I guess one thing that surprised me in last night's game was about Giles: that he didn't appear to post up or even really try to get deep post position. At 6'10, that seems like something he'd want to do against a somewhat smaller team, or something that K would design a play for.
I know that rumor has it that Giles has a good outside game, even if not all the way to the 3pt line (maybe even the 3 as well?).
Anyway, i was surprised that the only time he really looked to score was on a terrible shot, perhaps the lowest value shot in all of basketball, a very long 2pt shot that was moderately well defended.
I understand that that shot does not define him as a player, and that he will take many other, and other types of, shots while at Duke.

Are you serious? The dude came off two knee surgeries (1 major, 1 minor) before playing his first competitive basketball game in 14 months. He lacks complete confidence to bang inside.

Giles is, for better or for worse, a project right now. He will not - more like cannot - contribute immediately like Tatum, even if his potential is higher.

If I stopped performing my job for 14 months and then came back, I'd be crazy rusty as well.

Give Giles patience, especially in the inside. I'd be scared $%&#less as well coming off three knee surgeries before my 19th birthday.

[Lar77]

He played four minutes. Maybe if he'd played eight minutes we might have seen some of that.

Good point. Giles is moving well in warm-ups and he was showing range. He got in for 4 minutes, wasn't the savior last night but got his feet wet and we'll hopefully see him more and more, but I think he comes off the bench for a while.

[Troublemaker]

Then if Giles is great, who would you not start?

Matt, Luke, Jayson, Amile

i would make Matt the 6th man in that case, which may be improbable.

lol, so paranoid and salty.

A part of me hopes Coach K increases Matt's minutes to 45 per game.

What if there's no overtime? Eh, just have him dribble around cones and play horse with Brennan Besser for 5 minutes.

[Devilwin]

Very bad outing last night, bordering on pathetic. There are lots of things I wanted say, but decided on just this.
In K I trust. Everything will be fine...

[BD80]

He played four minutes. Maybe if he'd played eight minutes we might have seen some of that.

Double down?

[sagegrouse]

There is absolutely zero chance that a healthy Grayson Allen comes off the bench.

I agree. I saw two games in person -- one in which Grayson was cold and the other in which he scored a bunch. In both cases, I thought he was clearly the best player on the court. He is strong, quick, fast and skilled. Some of Grayson's capabilities don't come through on the tube.

[Neals384]

Regarding the plus/minus, in a game with an 8.5 minute stretch in which Duke outscored its opponent by 22 and a near end-of-game stretch of 5:12 in which the opponent outscored us by 10, I'm not sure the plus/minus tells us much more than who was playing during those two stretches. For example, it's possible that Frank's plus/minus was that bad largely because he played most of the last 6 minutes, while we were playing stall ball.


It's a fair point, as Jackson was -1 for the game before going -13 over the final 5 minutes. And most of those minutes were without Jefferson, so one can certainly argue that having Amile on the bench made more of a difference than having Frank in the game.

That said, here's a play-by-play of Frank's final two shifts in the game:

At 5:20, Jackson and Jeter enter the game for Kennard and Jefferson. The lead is 20. TennState layup by Martin, Turnover by Tatum, layup by Reddick, missed 3 ptr by Jackson with 12 seconds on the shot clock, foul by Jackson. Two free throws by Chaney. The lead is 14. Kennard and Jefferson back in for Jeter and Jackson.

At 2:35, Jackson comes back in for Allen. (3 seconds later, Jeter in for Jefferson) The lead is 17. Foul by Tatum, two free throws by Martin. Turnover by Jeter, foul by Jeter, Jumper by McCall. Turnover by Tatum, foul by Jackson, 1 free throw by Reed, turnover by Jackson, foul by Jackson, dunk by McCall. And the lead was 10 with 1:17 to play.

To sum up, in these two shifts, Jackson had no points, steals, rebounds or assists, committed 3 fouls, had 1 turnover and missed his only shot. I don't think we can absolve him of sharing responsibility for a poor final 5 minutes by our guys.

It wasn't just the end of game, either. Jackson's second shift in the first half didn't go well for Duke. In 4 minutes, Duke didn't score, while TennState scored 6 points, all on layups. Jones replaced Jackson with 5 minutes to go in the half, and Tenn State made only one more layup the rest of the half while Duke outscored them 13-4.

I'm actually a big Jackson fan, and fully accept that as a freshman he's going to have games like this. We're going to need him to help protect leads down the stretch, and I'm fully confident he can correct these issues with help from our amazing coaches.

[OldPhiKap]

Um, he hasn't played in over a year. It's going to take him some time to get his rhythm and touch back. Don't you think?

No. Although he has not played for over a year and he only played four minutes last night, it is perfectly rational to extrapolate his skills, predilections, and draft status. I give him six, seven years in the NBA tops.

Join the internet age, Doc. I had you pegged as a superstar by your third post, fourth post tops.

;-)

[sagegrouse]

Tennessee State lost to NC State in overtime. Why would you expect to run them out of the gym? The obvious reason why it is fair game on Grayson Allen is that he is a white kid that plays for Duke. One final comment, does Doris Burke get paid by the word? She never shuts up.

Let me add a different tone to your comment. Grayson is the best-known and most easily recognized college basketball player in the country. I would stop there.

I like Doris Burke, but -- oh my God -- does she rub her knowledge in our face!

[Troublemaker]

Some plays from the game that I enjoyed (not necessarily because they were important). First, a couple involving Tatum playing defense:

Nice hard hedge by Jayson on the double ball screen that turns into a switch. Another seamless switch on the wing. His man drives, Amile helps, and Jayson recovers to Amile's man for the blocked shot.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WarmBoldFinch-size_restricted.gif


Then, Jayson's other blocked sot. First, a seamless off-ball switch with Amile's man. (Pointing! Communicating!). Then the guy tries to drive Jayson and gets his stuff packed.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FirsthandShowyFlyingfish-size_restricted.gif

[Troublemaker]

A couple of nice wrinkles in Horns:

First, a handoff to the point guard instead of the wing. Nice cut by Frank and nice finish.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PositiveNarrowDuck-size_restricted.gif


On this next one, Luke is at the elbow instead of a big; Jayson is in the corner where Luke usually would be. Luke sets off-ball screen for Grayson (which is typical) but Grayson then re-sets an off-ball screen for Luke (atypical). This causes confusion in the D and initiates nice ball movement. Unfortunately, Jayson fumbles the pass at the end and can't finish. Still, nice play.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MenacingBoldAddax-size_restricted.gif

[Old Gold]

Jayson was just tremendous in the second half. In addition to those defensive plays, the kid just YANKED some defensive boards. And he was the one who found Luke for consecutive threes when we pulled away. Each of them were in transition. He brought the ball up so quickly, drew double teams, confused them, then popped the ball to Luke in rhythm.

Later, K went to Tatum in several isolations. Tatum got great shots (missing several) and drew double teams that resulted in open shots for teammates. He stuck an open three pointer.

Defense -- effort, rebounding -- toughness, pushing the ball in transition -- speed and dribbling ability, assists -- unselfishness and vision, isolations -- one on one ability, three pointer -- shooting. Damn, that kid is talented! He got that Grant Hill/Mike Dunleavy-type toolbox!!

[Troublemaker]

The "I'm coming to set a ball screen...psych!... I'm slipping to the basket" play can be hard to handle. Not for Amile and Matt, though, who expertly switch it here. Amile gets a nice contest, and Matt gets inside position on the boxout and checks the big man off the grid so Jayson can grab the rebound and start the fast break. Coach K praised Jayson in the postgame for getting defensive boards and starting the break for easy 3s, deservedly, but on this play, the hard part was accomplished by the old men at the beginning.


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FavoriteWelllitBunting-size_restricted.gif

[Old Gold]

Look at how fast Jayson pushes the ball! That's not normal for a 6'8 guy.

[Troublemaker]

Harry needs to have more awareness of the ball here. He's too focused on the trash happening away from the ball and wasn't there to challenge the successful backdoor cut. Communicating to Frank that a screen is coming would actually be good ice pick-n-roll defense if Frank's man had the ball. But he didn't. Yes, Grayson should not be backdoored but when it happens on occasion, we want the opposing guard to attempt a tough finish around size.


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TestyPastGreatargus-size_restricted.gif


Like here, with Marques a minute later in the game, even though the ball still went in. (But yes, our guards probably gave up a couple more backdoors than was ideal.)

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AffectionateUnimportantDeer-size_restricted.gif

[jimsumner]

Look at how fast Jayson pushes the ball! That's not normal for a 6'8 guy.

Lots of things he does aren't normal for a 6-8 guy.

That's why he's a top-five NBA draft pick.

The starting lineup?

Assuming reasonable health, Allen, Jefferson and Kennard are starting locks. Tatum is closing in to that level. Jones is the presumptive fifth starter until and if Giles reaches the point when he becomes too good to keep off the court. He's not there now and he may not reach that point until midway through the ACC schedule or even later, at which point it might make sense to use him as a 20-mpg super-sub.

I think a lot of the fixation on starters ignores three things.

The five guys who start aren't necessarily the five guys who finish.
The five guys who start aren't necessarily the five guys who play the most minutes.
The five guys who start now aren't necessarily the five guys who start later.

Based on what I know about how K feels about Jones, I suspect he retains his starting spot throughout the season. That doesn't mean we might not reach a point when he starts but plays fewer minutes that one or more of the freshmen coming off the bench.

[Billy Dat]

Some plays from the game that I enjoyed (not necessarily because they were important).

Amazing work with these video clips, you are like a DBR Zach Lowe. It definitely raises the X and O talk on the board to a new level...keep it up!

[MChambers]

Amazing work with these video clips, you are like a DBR Zach Lowe. It definitely raises the X and O talk on the board to a new level...keep it up!

I'll second that. Great stuff, Troublemaker. You're making me feel like I actually understand what I'm watching!

[Neals384]

I'll second that. Great stuff, Troublemaker. You're making me feel like I actually understand what I'm watching!

Third. Thanks, T. You're making me realize how little I understand what I'm watching.

[BluDvlsN1]

Amazing work with these video clips, you are like a DBR Zach Lowe. It definitely raises the X and O talk on the board to a new level...keep it up!

Count my appreciation in also, really great posting, will look forward to more when posted.
Maybe your headings can be, Breaking it down
Have to admit being a tad envious at the technical acumen,;)

[Troublemaker]

Amazing work with these video clips, you are like a DBR Zach Lowe. It definitely raises the X and O talk on the board to a new level...keep it up!


I'll second that. Great stuff, Troublemaker. You're making me feel like I actually understand what I'm watching!


Third. Thanks, T. You're making me realize how little I understand what I'm watching.


Count my appreciation in also, really great posting, will look forward to more when posted.
Maybe your headings can be, Breaking it down
Have to admit being a tad envious at the technical acumen,;)

Thanks, guys. I am honored and humbled by your praise.

I can't promise to do these for every game, but for the interesting or major games, I'll throw up some GIFs.

[Jeffrey]

Based on what I know about how K feels about Jones, I suspect he retains his starting spot throughout the season.

This is the well-informed belief. Other than Troublemaker, does anyone else share my belief that Harry will take Matt's starting spot before season end?

[Indoor66]

This is the well-informed belief. Other than Troublemaker, does anyone else share my belief that Harry will take Matt's starting spot before season end?

I have to agree with Jim. Matt will start all season. A team requires more than stars.

[Billy Dat]

Thanks, guys. I am honored and humbled by your praise.

I can't promise to do these for every game, but for the interesting or major games, I'll throw up some GIFs.

You'll know you've really arrive when people start disagreeing with what is shown on the video evidence! I also think there is a whole subculture of body language interpretation that this kind of evidence can facilitate, let alone lip reading!

[Kedsy]

This is the well-informed belief. Other than Troublemaker, does anyone else share my belief that Harry will take Matt's starting spot before season end?

If/when Harry is up to speed, we would clearly have six guys (Grayson/Luke/Matt/Jayson/Amile/Harry) deserving of a spot in the starting lineup. Obviously, in any particular game, only five of the six can actually do so.

It's easy for us to say Harry comes off the bench, because we haven't seen him play and he seems so far away from being up to speed, but if he's really Chris Webber (as people who watched him in high school have suggested), then it becomes a lot less easy to say that.

I don't think anyone (maybe not even Coach K) knows how it will pan out in the end. It's possible that any one of the six might come off the bench in individual games. Maybe it will depend on game matchups, maybe on who practiced better than week, maybe on a coach's hunch. Hopefully, it won't be guided by who's injured that day, though the first months of the season don't inspire a great deal of optimism on that front.

I can say that I do NOT think it's significantly more likely that Matt is the one who ends up on the bench versus any of the others, but I guess I don't know that for sure either.

[MChambers]

This is the well-informed belief. Other than Troublemaker, does anyone else share my belief that Harry will take Matt's starting spot before season end?
Although I really value Matt Jones, and think it's obvious that he's one of Coach K's favorites of all time, I could see him going to the bench, much like Nate James did in 2001. Like Nate, Matt would take it well, knowing that he'd still be a key player, and that his minutes would not be affected much, and because he's all about winning.

I'm not saying I believe it will happen, but it wouldn't surprise me that much. But, if it happens, it won't be because Coach K has lost faith in Matt. Quite the opposite.

[jv001]

Thanks, guys. I am honored and humbled by your praise.

I can't promise to do these for every game, but for the interesting or major games, I'll throw up some GIFs.

You are the man! Like the above posters, I am really enjoying your work. Can't spork but can give you a big GODUKE!!!!

[BD80]

Thanks, guys. I am honored and humbled by your praise.

I can't promise to do these for every game, but for the interesting or major games, I'll throw up some GIFs.

My stomach gets a little kattywampus during major games too. Try a little Pepto, or Tums. or both.

[tbyers11]

If/when Harry is up to speed, we would clearly have six guys (Grayson/Luke/Matt/Jayson/Amile/Harry) deserving of a spot in the starting lineup. Obviously, in any particular game, only five of the six can actually do so.

Easy answer here. Alphabetical rotation of the 6 starters from game to game. That always works well. :rolleyes:



It's easy for us to say Harry comes off the bench, because we haven't seen him play and he seems so far away from being up to speed, but if he's really Chris Webber (as people who watched him in high school have suggested), then it becomes a lot less easy to say that.

I don't think anyone (maybe not even Coach K) knows how it will pan out in the end. It's possible that any one of the six might come off the bench in individual games. Maybe it will depend on game matchups, maybe on who practiced better than week, maybe on a coach's hunch. Hopefully, it won't be guided by who's injured that day, though the first months of the season don't inspire a great deal of optimism on that front.

I can say that I do NOT think it's significantly more likely that Matt is the one who ends up on the bench versus any of the others, but I guess I don't know that for sure either.

I agree here that we don't really know because no one (including Coach K or Harry) knows how quickly Harry will get back to prior form. As you mentioned, we could change starting lineups based on matchups but I don't think that likely based on how K usually likes to define roles on a team and how I think a defined role will be important for Harry.

I personally think Matt will end up starting the majority of the games during the season. Whether he ends up playing more minutes or is on the floor more at crunch time than Harry (or even Frank) seems like it will be more matchup or game flow dependent.

[kAzE]

Thanks, guys. I am honored and humbled by your praise.

I can't promise to do these for every game, but for the interesting or major games, I'll throw up some GIFs.

I love the Zach Lowe style analysis as well. Great job! Just curious, are you getting these clips from somewhere that the rest of us can also access or are you producing them yourself?

[devildeac]

You'll know you've really arrive when people start disagreeing with what is shown on the video evidence! I also think there is a whole subculture of body language interpretation that this kind of evidence can facilitate, let alone lip reading!

Yep. Send some of those clips to Dead Spin and/or espn and we'll see how wrong Troublemaker is. :rolleyes:

(kidding, kidding)

Keep those gifs and explanations coming!

[devildeac]

My stomach gets a little kattywampus during major games too. Try a little Pepto, or Tums. or both.

This works, too:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?3840-Ymm-Beer

[ChillinDuke]

<snip>

Honestly, this is such great stuff. Thank you for these, TM.

- Chillin