Star Wars: Rogue One SPOILER THREAD!

[JasonEvans]

This will be the place where we discuss the film with the assumption that all readers have actually seen the movie. Eventually, once the movie has been out for a bit, we will merge with the other Rogue One thread.

In the mean time, I post the following questions and observations --

1) Darth Vader removing his mask to kiss the sleeping Princess Leia was creepy and unnecessary. He doesn't know she is his daughter at that point, does he?!?! This is a problem!
2) I have no problem with Saw Guerra (Forrest Whitaker) dying, but having him get stepped on by an Imperial Walker seemed unusually cruel, especially the squishing sound... eeeewwwww!
3) I love that K2SO's consciousness gets to live on in R2D2.
4) Cassian piloting a star destroyer into the base was the perfect way for him to die. I know Jyn thought there was a way out, but he had to be sure and that was the only way.
5) So, when Jyn caresses her stomach at the end, she is totally implying that Cassian still lives on within her, right? She's got to be pregnant.

-Jason "can't wait to talk to all of ya'll about it!" Evans

[duke74]

Call me silly, but I like spoilers generally. They give me a roadmap of nuanced actions and things to watch for that I would probably miss.

I assume most don't feel this way, but I appreciate the insights and keen eye.

Thanks, Jason!

[JasonEvans]

In case you had not guessed, the stuff I wrote above was all a joke. None of those are real spoilers... or are they?

[BandAlum83]

Jason, since this is the spoiler thread, can you explain how it fits into the Star Wars franchise?

I think I heard it takes place sometime before the original star wars, but by how much? The life spans of some of these characters within the force seem to be very long, so Darth Vader being in it may not mean much.

Also, geographically, do these characters / stories overlap characters and locations we know from leia, Han and co?

[JasonEvans]

Jason, since this is the spoiler thread, can you explain how it fits into the Star Wars franchise?

I think I heard it takes place sometime before the original star wars, but by how much? The life spans of some of these characters within the force seem to be very long, so Darth Vader being in it may not mean much.

Also, geographically, do these characters / stories overlap characters and locations we know from leia, Han and co?

The film takes place immediately before the events of the Original Star Wars. Do you recall the opening five minutes of that film, with Princess Leia putting some digital plans into R2D2 so he can take them to the rebellion? This film leads directly up to that moment. There are events in the beginning of the film that take place about a decade earlier, but the vast majority of the film is the weeks leading up to the start of "A New Hope."

In terms of geography, the story here mostly takes place on planets we have not yet visited in the previous films.

[bjornolf]

Jason, since this is the spoiler thread, can you explain how it fits into the Star Wars franchise?

I think I heard it takes place sometime before the original star wars, but by how much? The life spans of some of these characters within the force seem to be very long, so Darth Vader being in it may not mean much.

Also, geographically, do these characters / stories overlap characters and locations we know from leia, Han and co?

Well, I know Jason answered this, but even without it, we know Luke and Leia are in their late teens at the start of A New Hope, and they were born at the end of Revenge of the Sith, when Vader was created. So, we know that it takes place before ANH and after RotS, which is no more than a twenty year period. On top of that, previews have showed us that they're stealing the plans for the original death star, so it's gotta be in the last few years, maybe even months, before the events of ANH.

[fuse]

Just got back from seeing it.
Will definitely go see it again.

I did not see a planet with the lava- was Vader's fortress on Mustafar?
The healing tank was a creepy touch, and wow was he in full Vader video game mode boarding the Rebel ship.

I have mixed feelings about CGI Tarkin and Leia.
Really, really close to looking human, but not quite.
I also thought the voice actor for Tarkin was more off than on.

By contrast, the integration of Red Leader and Gold Leader from A New Hope was clever and well executed.

Also interesting that the Death Star was powered by Kyber crystals like Jedi lightsabres.

Even suspecting/knowing the end had to be tragic, I thought there was enough character development to make me care about them.

K2SO was a lot of fun, my younger son thought he was the best part of the movie.

What was up with the brain octopus thing, the pilot, and recovering from losing his mind.

We may never know what the original was supposed to be like before the reshoots. I did miss the "I rebel" speech from Jyn Erso in the trailer.

Lots more multidimensional real world shades of grey in the Rebellion. Heroism and cowardice (dissolve the Rebellion? What?) along with some shady leadership (if you find her father, kill him).

I knew in advance no opening crawl and no John Williams, and it did not take away from the Star Wars feel for me.

This may be the best part of the Lucasfilm sale to Disney. If they can keep the quality up, and keep cranking out good movies, I'm sold.

[Chicago 1995]

Just got back.

I loved it, as did my 9 year old. His biggest complaint? What happened to the death troopers so that they weren't in the Original Trilogy? My best friend and I think (1) they were an elite squad limited in number; and (2) Tarkin finished them off when he fired the Death Star at the end. He also loved the droid, FWIW.

Thought the battle scenes were great, and the movie had done enough that we felt each of the characters' sacrifices as the movie wound to and end. Liked that it was a more real war movie, with consequences and sacrifice and a not completely (or at all) happy ending and that the Rebellion was presented with some grey and some blood on their hands - like Andor for example in the beginning of the movie.

CGI didn't bother me. Loved the integration of the pilots. Thought Tarkin was better than Leia. Loved the battle scenes too.

Thiught the hallway scene at the end with Vader was great. Even knowing how it would end, it was still so menacing and brutal.

[IrishDevil]

Just got back, so more to come later, but long story short: I enjoyed it quite a lot, though mostly because the last third made up for a choppy, muddled first third/half. Kudos to Wander (I think) for calling the intentional design flaw in the Death Star courtesy of our heroine's father.

[Wander]

Kudos to Wander (I think) for calling the intentional design flaw in the Death Star courtesy of our heroine's father.

I did, but any credit gets erased by my also thinking Jyn would turn out to be Rey's mom. Oops.

While this movie gives Episode 4 a lot more weight, it also takes a bunch away from Episode 6. I really wish we could go back and time and remove the second and third death stars from Episodes 6 and 7. Make the last battle in Return of the Jedi a fight to take back Coruscant and kill the Emperor or something. The destruction of the original Death Star is such a monumental event in the series, a storyline that now runs through Episodes 2, 3, 3.5, and 4, and it makes the following superweapons seem like a cop-out.

Stormtroopers need to get their hands on that laser machine gun.

[JasonEvans]

I enjoyed it quite a lot, though mostly because the last third made up for a choppy, muddled first third/half. Kudos to Wander (I think) for calling the intentional design flaw in the Death Star courtesy of our heroine's father.

I'm glad folks are agreeing with me that the first half was sorta weak but the back half rocks. I think everything that happens with Saw Guerra is a complete waste and I have no idea what was going on with him using that octopus to tap into the imperial pilot's mind. That was some terrible storytelling right there.

That said, the blind monk taking out the stormtroopers and Darth Vader manhandling Princess Leia's guards were two of the best scenes in Star Wars history!!

-Jason "I love, love, love that the exhaust port design flaw was intentional. That's a great addition to the Star Wars canon" Evans

[Udaman]

Saw it today. Certainly have to agree with JE (and others) that from the moment the rebels arrive at the planet where the Death Star plans are held, it's a really good movie. Really good. And that the first half doesn't compare favorably to that at all. As with many movies like this, there were several things I liked and didn't like. I'll start negative

Didn't Like

* No opening music/credits. I try to stay spoiler free (and mostly did with this movie)...but I had read that fans were unhappy with the beginning doing something no other Star Wars movie had done, and so I had a feeling. And I think it was a mistake. The opening is part of Star Wars. Don't mess with that.

* Everything with Saw Guerra. Everything. His needing to take breaths. The torturing by the octopus thing. His comments to Jen Erso. I mean as JE said, it was just bad all around.

* Just about everything with Jen and her father. His message to her in the hologram was cheesy as hell.

* The first time we meet Vader. I like the tub....but his conversation with Orson left me wanting a more angry Vader

* Some unnecessary shout outs to former movies. Didn't like them running into the two people who Obi Wan attacked in the first Star Wars (just too cute....and highly unlikely).

* Call her Stardust. Sorry, but that's too much a ripoff of StarLord from Guardians of the Galaxy.

* That they keep screwing up with prior Star Wars timelines. In the first Star Wars (well, technically the 4th, but the original movie), when Vader attacks Leia's ship he says to them "Where are those transmissions you intercepted?" then the other guy says "We intercepted no transmissions." Vader then kills him saying "If this is a consular ship, where's the ambassador?" Then he talks to Leia and says to her "Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by rebel spies."

This is a HUGE issue for me...because in Rogue One that's not at all what happens. The plans are handed to someone. Vader sees it. Leia's ship is right there, in the middle of a Rebel attack. There's no way she could then pretend to say that they were on a Diplomatic Mission to Alderan. I mean this goes against the entire opening scene of Star Wars. And it's lazy. And unnecessary. This one aspect knocks the movie down a big notch for me....and is almost....ALMOST...enough for me to not like it. Clearly, as you can tell, this bothers me.

But....I liked a lot too.

* I loved K2SO. Great comedy. Well written.

* I loved that everyone dies. It's war. It's a suicide mission. There's no happy ending for them.

* I liked they brought Tarkin back (so cool) and Leia at the end. Yeah, they looked a little fake...but still.

* I liked the destructive force of the Death Star. Though the explosion force seemed to move slowly.

* Liked, as JE did, that the Death Star flaw was put in on purpose (though I didn't like how much they all admitted that....I mean you would think the Empire would have fixed it, though maybe they couldn't.

* And I LOVED angry Vader at the end. That scene alone was one of the best from any Star Wars movie ever. Vader at his baddest. This really made me think that they should just remake all the Star Wars movies again as well. Why not? I would watch them. Tweak them a little...but add a totally kick butt Vader in them. Or make a movie about him hunting down all the Jedi. He's the best bad guy in sci fi history, and this was him in full fury just smoking everyone (and the look on their faces when he walked in was great.

Overall, I enjoyed it. Clearly hated the changing of the overall story....but liked that it was ultimately a war movie, with no real happy ending other than the plans getting out. Will see it again in the theater for sure.

[Wander]

* Liked, as JE did, that the Death Star flaw was put in on purpose (though I didn't like how much they all admitted that...I mean you would think the Empire would have fixed it, though maybe they couldn't.

I would need to watch again to be sure, but I don't think the bad guys were ever made aware that the Death Star had a weakness... all they know is that something relating to the Death Star was leaked. It could, for example, have been a leak allowing the Rebels to build their own superlaser technology (or just something about Wake Forest's formations :) )

[JasonEvans]

I would need to watch again to be sure, but I don't think the bad guys were ever made aware that the Death Star had a weakness... all they know is that something relating to the Death Star was leaked. It could, for example, have been a leak allowing the Rebels to build their own superlaser technology (or just something about Wake Forest's formations :) )

And anyone who knew why the rebels were stealing the plans was probably killed when Grand Moff Tarkin used the Death Star to smoke that planet. I love that he got rid of his rival that way. The Empire is full of "take no prisoners and stomp of the throat of your enemy" kind of dudes.

[JasonEvans]

Didn't Like

* Some unnecessary shout outs to former movies. Didn't like them running into the two people who Obi Wan attacked in the first Star Wars (just too cute...and highly unlikely).

The flash of R2D2 and C3PO was groan-inducing. I truly wish those two droids were just gone for good. They were fine in Lucas' world, but we have moved beyond that at this point. I'm about 2 more lame jokes away from putting C3PO alongside JarJar as characters that I want to see ripped limb-from-limb by a Wookie.



* That they keep screwing up with prior Star Wars timelines. In the first Star Wars (well, technically the 4th, but the original movie), when Vader attacks Leia's ship he says to them "Where are those transmissions you intercepted?" then the other guy says "We intercepted no transmissions." Vader then kills him saying "If this is a consular ship, where's the ambassador?" Then he talks to Leia and says to her "Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by rebel spies."

This is a HUGE issue for me...because in Rogue One that's not at all what happens. The plans are handed to someone. Vader sees it. Leia's ship is right there, in the middle of a Rebel attack. There's no way she could then pretend to say that they were on a Diplomatic Mission to Alderan. I mean this goes against the entire opening scene of Star Wars. And it's lazy. And unnecessary. This one aspect knocks the movie down a big notch for me...and is almost...ALMOST...enough for me to not like it. Clearly, as you can tell, this bothers me.

Well, there was a transmission that was sent to the ship. The info was transmitted even if it was later loaded onto a drive and then placed into Leia's hands (and later put into R2D2). The transmissions were not intercepted, that's true, but I think we have to give them at least a little leeway to make a good movie.

But, you are right, it does not match perfectly with "A New Hope."

[PackMan97]

This felt like an old school WWII mission movie. Definitely dark and violent, what you expect in a war movie.

Very glad Jyn and Cassian didn't get romantic, again it's a war movie.

Who knew the Death Star had a low power setting?

I guess there won't be a Rougue Two, killing everyone is one way to keep down the talent budget :)

Definitely enjoyed it, but was surprised at the lack of applause, I think everyone was still stunned by the time the credits started to roll.

[freshmanjs]

This felt like an old school WWII mission movie. Definitely dark and violent, what you expect in a war movie.

Very glad Jyn and Cassian didn't get romantic, again it's a war movie.

Who knew the Death Star had a low power setting?

I guess there won't be a Rougue Two, killing everyone is one way to keep down the talent budget :)

Definitely enjoyed it, but was surprised at the lack of applause, I think everyone was still stunned by the time the credits started to roll.

There was applause at our theater. So bizarre. Why would anyone applaud for a projector and screen?

[OZZIE4DUKE]

There was applause at our theater. So bizarre. Why would anyone applaud for a projector and screen?
We saw it yesterday afternoon. I'm glad I read Jason's no spoiler thread first so I knew the action would pick up at the end. I/we liked it, but at a 7 or 8 out of 10 level. Not knowing the characters it took a while to get "into them". I did like the ending with young Princess Leia getting the technical readout to later give R2D2, although I'm disappointed we didn't see her actually make the recording, which would have garnered a "knowing nod" and a smile from me, that I saw the projection 39 years ago when I saw "A New Hope" for the first time in 1977. In fact, maybe I'll pull out my VHS copy of that and watch it again tonight, if the VCR still works!

As Jason said, no sequel as all the rebels in this film were killed.

Oh, and as I read Jason's list of spoilers above, I kept saying "I didn't see that. I didn't see that either..." Glad they didn't happen!

There was a smattering of applause at the end. I gave it two or three claps just to join in.

If I see this movie again in a theater, I'll spring for the 3D and Imax, instead of the "regular" version. But most likely my second viewing will be on free TV in a couple of years... :cool:

[OldPhiKap]

Liked it as did BoyPK (age 12), who said it was a bit better than Episode 7.

What didn't work for me:

1. The whole Saw Guerra thing was just a muddled time filler as best I could tell.

2. Enough of the cameos. On the eay home, I thought that the best thing of the next backstory film (young Han Solo, IIRC) is that it should not have R2D2 or C3PO. They had their day. BB8 and the new droid in this film were better visually and for fresh stories.

Otherwise, enjoyable if somewhat predictable action film. But you gotta see it. Glad I did, probably won't see it again.

As Jason said n the other thread, Force Ten From Navarone is available somewhere. And has Harrison Ford.

[Doria]

I did not see a planet with the lava- was Vader's fortress on Mustafar?

(Snip)

Lots more multidimensional real world shades of grey in the Rebellion. Heroism and cowardice (dissolve the Rebellion? What?) along with some shady leadership (if you find her father, kill him).

Yes, they've confirmed via twitter that it was Mustafar. I guess nowhere is better suited for Vader to marinate in hatred and bitterness...

I also appreciate that they showed that the rebellion isn't all pure heroic action. I mean, we know the Empire is evil and repressive, but I'm sure many people still would view rebel activity as terrorism against a legitimate government. Rebellions may be built on hope, as they said, but they're also built on blood and sacrifice. Glad to see SW dealing with that in material beyond the old EU.


I would need to watch again to be sure, but I don't think the bad guys were ever made aware that the Death Star had a weakness... all they know is that something relating to the Death Star was leaked. It could, for example, have been a leak allowing the Rebels to build their own superlaser technology (or just something about Wake Forest's formations :) )

Well, in SW: ANH, they are alerted about the vulnerability (granted, it wasn't great timing), and Tarkin basically said "Who cares?"

Also, I'd basically assumed since the PR for Rogue One began that the design flaw was intentional, so it was a bit jarring to read all the stories with "Rogue One Finally Explains the Design Flaw!"

Anyway, I thought the opening could have been tightened up, and I was a bit sorry that some of the Saw material was cut (because I had affection for him from reading Catalyst); also, I liked many of the alternate Donnie Yen line readings from the trailers better than what they went with, but these are pretty minor nits to pick.

No sequel, but a kind of back-quel, as Toys R Us spoilered that Saw would be appearing in Rebels. It's pretty close to the timeline of Rogue One, so maybe we see how he accumulates some of those injuries. We also know now that at least Hera and Chopper survive Rebels.

Overall, though, I loved it; I should note that I saw it twice yesterday, and liked it significantly more the second time. I also read the ending as more positive, overall, the second time, since I was better able to pick up how every main character in it is essentially a broken person, either physically, mentally, or emotionally. That gave it a more redemptive ending to me. (I'm not saying every movie, even a SW movie, has to have a happy ending for me to like it. I'm just accounting for my main takeaways each time.)

[PackMan97]

There was applause at our theater. So bizarre. Why would anyone applaud for a projector and screen?

There was some applause at my showing, but it was scattered and short lived. I was expecting more from an opening day crowd of geeks.

[OldPhiKap]

There was some applause at my showing, but it was scattered and short lived. I was expecting more from an opening day crowd of geeks.

None at mine.

[Doria]

Scattered applause at 11 AM, but a good amount at 8 PM (both showings were at the same theater). I will note that applause during opening weekend of almost any "big" or noteworthy movie is very common here in Los Angeles. It seemed really weird to me when I first moved here, but I'm pretty used to it now.

[-jk]

Saw it with my 13 yo son today - he wanted to be ready for school Monday.

Fun movie, if a bit lost in the first half. And the trailers really misled. How many rewrites did it go through down the stretch?

Yeah, Saw was totally unnecessary, and they could have spent his time building some backstory for the other main characters they offed.

A good time, anyway, and my kid will want to get it for his birthday this summer, so one less teen mystery...

-jk

[Dukehky]

I enjoyed how most of the little flashbacks or homages to the original trilogy were generally with pretty unknown or forgotten characters like the pilots and to some extent Tarkin.

I was hoping going in that Vader would be more a part of this story, especially when all I got was the second wrung bad guy from the Dark Knight Rises. I'm with a lot of the folks on this board that thought the Vader boarding party was the coolest thing in the movie, and may be the coolest individual scene from the whole franchise (excluding "I am your father" although that's not really "cool' per se). I also hate the actor that played the Death Star engineer. All I ever think about when I see him is maybe the worst movie ever made "Clash of the Titans," even though i should think about a mediocre at best bond villain.

I really liked it, the second half of the flick made me forget how bad the first half one. I wonder if there will ever be a Star Wars movie that doesn't start with an abandoned child. Maybe Han will come from a well adjusted family and he just had to get away. Now that would be a spoiler.

Can't wait for Episode VIII, and I may be most excited for Donald Glover as Lando.


Whatever Rogue One was, I have been watching this stupid TNT marathon for the past two days, so it did it's job.

[DukeDevil]

love loved LOVED the Vader hallway scene at the end. The movie could have been 2 hours of that and I'd have been overjoyed.

I wanna ask though...plenty of little continuity things bugged me but...weren't many bothans supposed to die to bring the death star plans? I don't think I saw a single bothan.

[PackMan97]

love loved LOVED the Vader hallway scene at the end. The movie could have been 2 hours of that and I'd have been overjoyed.

I wanna ask though...plenty of little continuity things bugged me but...weren't many bothans supposed to die to bring the death star plans? I don't think I saw a single bothan.

See the previous page comment I made. Someone corrected me, that comment was about the second Death Star plans.

[OldPhiKap]

Continuity niggles that hit me last night, involving the ship Leia was on.

First, how does a "spare" dinghy like that just roll out without seriously tossing everyone in it all over? I mean, the lack of gravity in ships is one thing but not sure how you do that.

Second, how does Leia claim she was on a diplomatic mission at the beginning of IV if she's caught red-handed in a dinghy ship from a battle?

It was a fun movie if you take it for what it is. Just don't think about it toooooooo much.

[DukeDevil]

See the previous page comment I made. Someone corrected me, that comment was about the second Death Star plans.

Didn't think I saw than when reading, was it on the no spoiler thread?

[moonpie23]

There was applause at our theater. So bizarre. Why would anyone applaud for a projector and screen?

i applaud my turntable and vinyl regularly...... :)


saw it yesterday....thought there was a lot of good stuff....bought in to the lead characters. groaned a few times on the obvious plants r2d2 and C3po....


i thought the ending was clunky and rushed to bind all the bridges together.... i especially did NOT like that Leia SMILED and quipped the "hope" line.....after all that had happened, the battle, the deaths, the pending capture, to me, she would have not been all cute and smiling.....it should have been a grim and serious "hope" quip.....


i give it an 7.5 fo 10....

[gurufrisbee]

There was no applause in my theater - but we rented out the entire theater and filled it with junior high students, so they weren't the ideal audience for a reaction like that.

They did have a pretty loud audible reaction to K2 getting 'killed', which I thought was an interesting thing given that people who knew what was up probably should have expected a pretty high chance of them all dying and it was a robot.

[niveklaen]

Super minor quibble - they bumped into the "I'm a wanted man on 12 systems" guy and his pall right before the city was blown up - how do those two end up at the wretched hive of scum and villainy in ANH?

[PackMan97]

Super minor quibble - they bumped into the "I'm a wanted man on 12 systems" guy and his pall right before the city was blown up - how do those two end up at the wretched hive of scum and villainy in ANH?

I thought the movie made it VERY clear that Jyn and Cassian bumped into him leaving the start port, which meant they were headed to the starport and were leaving Jeda (for the much more pleasant Tatooine). I believe if you watch it again you can even see the tickets in their hands. One could assume at the time of Rogue One, they were only wanted on 11 systems as Jeda is likely the 12th :)

PS - You make a good point on that one, my joke aside...they get there pretty quickly as well...though we really have no idea how long it is between the Tantive IV jumping from Scarif until it's chased down by the Devastator.

BTW - Why are the rebel X and Y-wings so much better at taking out the AT-ATs then they were in Empire? Food for thought. It seemed like they really struggled to get those down in Empire.

[Acymetric]

I would need to watch again to be sure, but I don't think the bad guys were ever made aware that the Death Star had a weakness... all they know is that something relating to the Death Star was leaked. It could, for example, have been a leak allowing the Rebels to build their own superlaser technology (or just something about Wake Forest's formations :) )

It also isn't totally clear, but there may not have been time to make such a major fix (I don't think it is as simple as just throwing a cover over the exhaust port) between the end of Rogue One and the destruction of the Death Star.

[El_Diablo]

BTW - Why are the rebel X and Y-wings so much better at taking out the AT-ATs then they were in Empire? Food for thought. It seemed like they really struggled to get those down in Empire.

Weren't they only using A-wings on Hoth?

[jjasper0729]

Weren't they only using A-wings on Hoth?

Not even A-wings. They were using snow speeders and they were only one to three days ready when they AT-AT's attacked (as evidenced by Han having to go out on taun-taun to rescue Luke)

[El_Diablo]

Not even A-wings. They were using snow speeders and they were only one to three days ready when they AT-AT's attacked (as evidenced by Han having to go out on taun-taun to rescue Luke)

Nice work...I just watched the scene to confirm. Also, I noticed that Julian Glover was in that scene, adding to the long list of Game of Thrones actors who have appeared in Star Wars films (along with Brienne, Jojen, Barristan, Bloodraven, Grenn, Syrio, two Sand Snakes, Marillion and soon Daenerys).

[PackMan97]

Not even A-wings. They were using snow speeders and they were only one to three days ready when they AT-AT's attacked (as evidenced by Han having to go out on taun-taun to rescue Luke)

Except of course that they had X-wings there to go as "escorts" with each capital ship during the evacuation....so they were at the base. Seems to me they should have used the X-wings against the AT-ATs to allow the shield to hold longer...but hey, what do I know?

[Edouble]

Super minor quibble - they bumped into the "I'm a wanted man on 12 systems" guy and his pall right before the city was blown up - how do those two end up at the wretched hive of scum and villainy in ANH?

I was more bothered that they would be there in Jedha, a city with such a heavy Imperial presence, if they are indeed "wanted men". Notice that sometimes wanted men get a wanted-poster-style hologram (as in the case of Bodhi).

Could have done without the droid cameo as well.

[crimsondevil]

BTW - Why are the rebel X and Y-wings so much better at taking out the AT-ATs then they were in Empire? Food for thought. It seemed like they really struggled to get those down in Empire.

I said the same thing to my friend during the movie. We agreed that the walkers on Hoth are clearly the AT-AT Mark II.

[Udaman]

Oh, and just realized that in A New Hope, Leia also says about the stolen Death Star plans "I only hope we can find a weakness." When from Rogue One it's clear that they all knew that a weakness had been put in by the designer.

Why (WHY) did they have to mess that up.

Of course now I want a funny How it Should Have Ended with Vader asking Leia

"Where are those plans?"

"I don't know what you're talking about. We're on a diplomatic mission to Alederan?"

"Uh...what are you talking about. Your ship was just at our station."

"No it wasn't."

"Yes it was. I just saw you. I just killed about a dozen men until someone handed the plans off to your ship."

"Nope. Didn't happen."

"Yes it did! It literally just happened. You were right there!"

"Nope. We're on a diplomatic mission to Alderan."

"THIS....is why I hate politicians!"

[OldPhiKap]

Oh, and just realized that in A New Hope, Leia also says about the stolen Death Star plans "I only hope we can find a weakness." When from Rogue One it's clear that they all knew that a weakness had been put in by the designer.

Why (WHY) did they have to mess that up.

Of course now I want a funny How it Should Have Ended with Vader asking Leia

"Where are those plans?"

"I don't know what you're talking about. We're on a diplomatic mission to Alederan?"

"Uh...what are you talking about. Your ship was just at our station."

"No it wasn't."

"Yes it was. I just saw you. I just killed about a dozen men until someone handed the plans off to your ship."

"Nope. Didn't happen."

"Yes it did! It literally just happened. You were right there!"

"Nope. We're on a diplomatic mission to Alderan."

"THIS...is why I hate politicians!"

yeah, the movie is enjoyable as long as you don't think about it too much.

[Edouble]

Oh, and just realized that in A New Hope, Leia also says about the stolen Death Star plans "I only hope we can find a weakness." When from Rogue One it's clear that they all knew that a weakness had been put in by the designer.

No, they didn't know. It was rumored at that point. The rebel council did not vote to take action and retrieve the plans out of the Imperial Archives because they would only have been going on Jyn's word. Recall that she was the only one who saw the hologram of her father explaining about the weakness.

Leia says "I only hope a weakness can be found". Jyn told the council that hope, hoping that the plans would have the weakness that would mean the destruction of the Death Star, was enough to go on (paraphrasing Cassian). This is the same hope that Leia describes: hoping that the weakness in the plans can be found.

In addition, the weakness was hidden. Galen Erso had to put it in kind of deep, so that it wouldn't be so obvious. The rebel scientists/engineers still had to find the weakness, even if they believed that it was there!


Why (WHY) did they have to mess that up.

Of course now I want a funny How it Should Have Ended with Vader asking Leia

"Where are those plans?"

"I don't know what you're talking about. We're on a diplomatic mission to Alederan?"

"Uh...what are you talking about. Your ship was just at our station."

"No it wasn't."

"Yes it was. I just saw you. I just killed about a dozen men until someone handed the plans off to your ship."

"Nope. Didn't happen."

"Yes it did! It literally just happened. You were right there!"

"Nope. We're on a diplomatic mission to Alderan."

"THIS...is why I hate politicians!"

Leia's ship was not of a unique design though. It was just sort of generic medium sized ship. In fact, they showed at least one other ship that looked just like Leia's ship zooming off into hyperspace after the battle at Eadu. They also showed a ship like this in Revenge of the Sith.

[Acymetric]

No, they didn't know. It was rumored at that point. The rebel council did not vote to take action and retrieve the plans out of the Imperial Archives because they would only have been going on Jyn's word. Recall that she was the only one who saw the hologram of her father explaining about the weakness.

Leia says "I only hope a weakness can be found". Jyn told the council that hope, hoping that the plans would have the weakness that would mean the destruction of the Death Star, was enough to go on (paraphrasing Cassian). This is the same hope that Leia describes: hoping that the weakness in the plans can be found.

In addition, the weakness was hidden. Galen Erso had to put it in kind of deep, so that it wouldn't be so obvious. The rebel scientists/engineers still had to find the weakness, even if they believed that it was there!



Leia's ship was not of a unique design though. It was just sort of generic medium sized ship. In fact, they showed at least one other ship that looked just like Leia's ship zooming off into hyperspace after the battle at Eadu. They also showed a ship like this in Revenge of the Sith.

The particular model of ship is the Corellian Corvette (although it has a few other names that is what I first heard it called so that's what I run with). The fact that you have to explain why it makes sense means it was at least a little bit of a stretch, or at least not a perfect fit but I agree that for the most part the ending of Rogue One doesn't necessary conflict with the beginning of New Hope. People also seem to be assuming that Vader and the Empire are somehow omniscient, they only knew that the plans had been beamed off the planet the did not necessarily know exactly which ship received the information or how it was stored. Vader's accusations in A New Hope were not necessarily based on known fact, they were based on partial information and suspicions and meant to intimidate.

Also, I'm sure the Rebels knew that the "we are on a diplomatic mission" guise was flimsy but it was significantly better than the only other real option, which would have been "yeah we're Rebels and we have the plans on the ship".

[fuse]

Second viewing, this time in 3D IMAX.

Was even better in 3D IMAX.

Enjoyed it thoroughly.

I will say as far as villains go, Krennic is pretty weak.

[Doria]

Second viewing, this time in 3D IMAX.

Was even better in 3D IMAX.

Enjoyed it thoroughly.

I will say as far as villains go, Krennic is pretty weak.

Yeah, Krennic is a weak spot for me in the movie, despite liking the actor (thought he was great in Bloodlines S1). Even in Catalyst and the Rogue One novelization, where there's ostensibly more room for characterization, he's so underbaked. He's essentially always defined against the other characters, without having any traits of his own. It's especially glaring with the adaptation of the movie, in which most of the characters benefit from additional time (Bodhi, particularly, IMO). I like the idea of a working-class guy going against Tarkin's aristocratic insider, but it just isn't enough.

[Olympic Fan]

Okay, late comer to this thread ... and to the movie.

To be honest, I wasn't so psyched to see it. I thought the last three films in the original sextet were godawful and The Force Awakens was lame.

But was with family and I got dragged to a Tuesday night showing.

Let me say that I was VERY pleasantly surprised. I thought it was the best Star Wars movie since the Empire Strikes Back.

I went in armed with the knowledge of the spoilers mentioned in this thread. I was looking for facts that would contradict the story line that opens with A New Hope.

I didn't find any -- I thought Jyn was the only person who had a clue WHAT the flaw was in the Death Star. And there was a lot of doubt among the rebel leaders about her claim. I thought Vader and the Empire knew that information was transmitted to the rebel fleet, but it didn't look like they knew exactly what was transmitted (and blowing up their own base, pretty much limited any followup investigation). I have no problem with Leia saying "I only hope we can find a flaw" -- that's what she should have said.

A few other impressions:

-- I thought the digitally recreated segments with Peter Cushing were fabulous. If I had not known they were CGI I never would have guessed. On the other hand, the brief scene with Leia at the end, definitely looked CGI to me.

-- As I said, I saw the movie Tuesday night -- just hours after Carrie Fisher's death. It was kind of breathtaking to know that and see the young Carrie Fisher again, mouthing the final word of the film Hope.

-- I wish the sitcom How I Met Your Mother was still around. Ted's obsession with Star Wars was a running joke on the show. I remember an episode that involved a long debate over who was responsible for the flaw in the Death Star -- was it the architect or the contractor? Ted would be delighted to learn that although it was the architect, it was done deliberately ... maybe he could have designed a hidden flaw in the GNB Building. Oh well, I bet we eventually see some reaction to the film on Big Bang Theory, another show with characters who are deeply invested in the Star Wars universe.

[BD80]

... I thought it was the best Star Wars movie since the Empire Strikes Back.

I went in armed with the knowledge of the spoilers mentioned in this thread. I was looking for facts that would contradict the story line that opens with A New Hope.

I didn't find any -- I thought Jyn was the only person who had a clue WHAT the flaw was in the Death Star. And there was a lot of doubt among the rebel leaders about her claim. I thought Vader and the Empire knew that information was transmitted to the rebel fleet, but it didn't look like they knew exactly what was transmitted (and blowing up their own base, pretty much limited any followup investigation). I have no problem with Leia saying "I only hope we can find a flaw" -- that's what she should have said.

A few other impressions:

-- I thought the digitally recreated segments with Peter Cushing were fabulous. If I had not known they were CGI I never would have guessed. On the other hand, the brief scene with Leia at the end, definitely looked CGI to me.

...

I too loved it. Finally some good script writing in a Star Wars movie. The scene with Cassian and his rebels volunteering beautifully written and acted.

My biggest quibble was that it borrowed the climatic scene from Deep Impact not once, but twice. Significant characters pondering their life choices as they wait and watch a wave of impending doom descend upon them.

I actually enjoyed the way Rogue One shoehorns directly into the start of A New Hope. Leia was already being taxed with finding Obi Wan, which filled in a gap for me, why would she have been near Tatooine while trying to escape from the Empire with the plans. Still, why didn't they make more copies?

I found the shout outs with characters who will appear (did appear?) in A New Hope to be amusing and heart warming.

I too enjoyed the CGI of Peter Cushing, it was several minutes into his scene amazed at how similar he looked 40 years after the original until I remembered that he had passed away. The Leia CGI was disturbing.

Star Wars has real difficulty with alien characters. They all look like humans with masks on or CGI manipulations of earth animals.

The IMAX 3D is well worth the uptick.

[Tom B.]

I actually enjoyed the way Rogue One shoehorns directly into the start of A New Hope. Leia was already being taxed with finding Obi Wan, which filled in a gap for me, why would she have been near Tatooine while trying to escape from the Empire with the plans.

One small issue, though -- in the opening crawl of Star Wars/Episode IV/A New Hope/whatever, it said that Leia was racing "home" with the stolen plans -- i.e., back to Alderaan. Unless we're getting super-literal and the crawl meant her ancestral "home," which could be Tattooine, as it was her father's home planet.

But setting aside the crawl, even the plotline of Episode IV suggests that she was going to Tattooine on purpose, to deliver the plans to Obi-Wan and ask for his help. In this respect, the end of Rogue One fits nicely with the beginning of SWE4ANH -- again, if we ignore the literal text of SWE4ANH's opening crawl. So, maybe she was "racing home," but with a quick side trip to Tattooine along the way?


Still, why didn't they make more copies?

Yeah, you'd think a civilization that's technologically advanced enough to have laser blasters, sentient robots, and faster-than-light space travel could've figured out how to upload the plans to a cloud or something.

And everything could've been avoided if those two Imperial gunners on the Devastator had just blown up that escape pod, life signs or not.

[Edouble]

One small issue, though -- in the opening crawl of Star Wars/Episode IV/A New Hope/whatever, it said that Leia was racing "home" with the stolen plans -- i.e., back to Alderaan. Unless we're getting super-literal and the crawl meant her ancestral "home," which could be Tattooine, as it was her father's home planet.

But setting aside the crawl, even the plotline of Episode IV suggests that she was going to Tattooine on purpose, to deliver the plans to Obi-Wan and ask for his help. In this respect, the end of Rogue One fits nicely with the beginning of SWE4ANH -- again, if we ignore the literal text of SWE4ANH's opening crawl. So, maybe she was "racing home," but with a quick side trip to Tattooine along the way?

Yeah, you'd think a civilization that's technologically advanced enough to have laser blasters, sentient robots, and faster-than-light space travel could've figured out how to upload the plans to a cloud or something.

And everything could've been avoided if those two Imperial gunners on the Devastator had just blown up that escape pod, life signs or not.

Yeah, I think all along Leia was headed to Alderaan by way of Tatooine, to grab Obi-Wan. I mean, once she got to Tatooine, it's not like they could do much there. I assume she wanted to bring Obi-Wan to her father on Alderaan before everyone went back to Yavin 4.

If the plans were uploaded to the Star Wars Universe cloud, the Empire could potentially unearth what the rebels had uploaded and then would be able to find out what exactly the rebels had in their possession. Not knowing what the rebels would be planning was a tactical advantage for the rebels when they attacked the Death Star. The Empire was not expecting such a small scale attack. As the Imperial crony says to Tarkin "We've analyzed their attack sir, and there is a danger." Had the Empire analyzed the rebels attack earlier on, they might have been more prepared for a small group of fighters. That is my reasoning for only going with a hard copy.

Had they uploaded to the cloud from Admiral Raddus' command ship, the Empire could probably follow the trail. I am assuming the fingerprint of the transmission was erased once the hard copy was made on Raddus' ship, before the amazing Darth Vader scene.

[JasonEvans]

Yeah, you'd think a civilization that's technologically advanced enough to have laser blasters, sentient robots, and faster-than-light space travel could've figured out how to upload the plans to a cloud or something.

Duuuuh! There are no clouds in space.

[BD80]

Duuuuh! There are no clouds in space.

There was after the Death Star got through with Alderan ...

it was a peaceful cloud

[Edouble]

Duuuuh! There are no clouds in space.

Lando says hello.

[Acymetric]

Lando says hello.

That was a planet, not space :)

[Tom B.]

Yeah, I think all along Leia was headed to Alderaan by way of Tatooine, to grab Obi-Wan. I mean, once she got to Tatooine, it's not like they could do much there.

True. Although I imagine Obi-Wan might've said, "Hey, before we go, we should run over to the Skywalker farm real quick and grab your bro...I mean, Luke."


If the plans were uploaded to the Star Wars Universe cloud, the Empire could potentially unearth what the rebels had uploaded and then would be able to find out what exactly the rebels had in their possession. Not knowing what the rebels would be planning was a tactical advantage for the rebels when they attacked the Death Star. The Empire was not expecting such a small scale attack. As the Imperial crony says to Tarkin "We've analyzed their attack sir, and there is a danger." Had the Empire analyzed the rebels attack earlier on, they might have been more prepared for a small group of fighters. That is my reasoning for only going with a hard copy.

Of course, if Tarkin hadn't blown up the Scarife facility, the Empire could've just checked the transmission file logs there to figure out what information Jyn and Cassian beamed up to the rebel fleet.


Had they uploaded to the cloud from Admiral Raddus' command ship, the Empire could probably follow the trail. I am assuming the fingerprint of the transmission was erased once the hard copy was made on Raddus' ship, before the amazing Darth Vader scene.

Yeah, maybe they had time to BleachBit the command ship's servers in those frantic minutes before Vader boarded. But based on the dialogue from this scene in SWE4ANH, it seems that the Imperials knew -- or at least suspected -- that the Rebels had stolen the technical plans for the Death Star, and were trying to find a weakness to exploit.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzs-OvfG8tE


Once again, though, Tarkin's nuking of the Scarife facility screwed the Imperials, because he blew up the master copy of the plans in the process -- and that, apparently, was literally the only other copy in the universe. So the Imperials didn't have a set of plans they could pull up and look at to see if there was an exploitable weakness they'd missed before. And because Galen died in the battle on Eadu, and Krennic killed all of Galen's colleagues, the Imperials couldn't consult with anyone on the Death Star's design or engineering teams to determine whether there was a weakness.

So the real moral of the entire Star Wars saga is that you should always back up your files, because you never know what might go wrong.

[OldPhiKap]

True. Although I imagine Obi-Wan might've said, "Hey, before we go, we should run over to the Skywalker farm real quick and grab your bro...I mean, Luke."



Of course, if Tarkin hadn't blown up the Scarife facility, the Empire could've just checked the transmission file logs there to figure out what information Jyn and Cassian beamed up to the rebel fleet.



Yeah, maybe they had time to BleachBit the command ship's servers in those frantic minutes before Vader boarded. But based on the dialogue from this scene in SWE4ANH, it seems that the Imperials knew -- or at least suspected -- that the Rebels had stolen the technical plans for the Death Star, and were trying to find a weakness to exploit.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzs-OvfG8tE


Once again, though, Tarkin's nuking of the Scarife facility screwed the Imperials, because he blew up the master copy of the plans in the process -- and that, apparently, was literally the only other copy in the universe. So the Imperials didn't have a set of plans they could pull up and look at to see if there was an exploitable weakness they'd missed before. And because Galen died in the battle on Eadu, and Krennic killed all of Galen's colleagues, the Imperials couldn't consult with anyone on the Death Star's design or engineering teams to determine whether there was a weakness.

So the real moral of the entire Star Wars saga is that you should always back up your files, because you never know what might go wrong.

But they would also have to have a working-copy set of construction plans at the Death Star. So they had at least one back-up. Can't build the thing to plans without a physical copy of the plans, after all.

[BD80]

... And because Galen died in the battle on Eadu, and Krennic killed all of Galen's colleagues, the Imperials couldn't consult with anyone on the Death Star's design or engineering teams to determine whether there was a weakness. ...

This is something that truly amused me. He killed "all" of the design engineers - there must have been at least a dozen - for a space station the size of a small moon.

Let's consider the design teams for:

a Tour de France racing bike ...

a standard passenger vehicle ...

a race car ...

a passenger jet ...

a fighter jet ...

a stealth bomber ...

a destroyer ...

a battleship ...

an aircraft carrier ...

an Apollo moon mission ...

And yet, Krennic assembled "all" of the engineers of the Death Star onto a landing pad?

[BD80]

But they would also have to have a working-copy set of construction plans at the Death Star. So they had at least one back-up. Can't build the thing to plans without a physical copy of the plans, after all.

Also, they were able to repeatedly build copies of the Death Star in subsequent episodes - so somebody must have had a copy of the plans somewhere.

BUT, did the Empire fix the flaw? Darth Vader is the only one who survived the original who would have known that there was a flaw.

[IrishDevil]

I was hoping to see the movie again before posting my full thoughts, but since I am in the beginning phases of another bar review (and 5 years removed from school this time around, yeesh), I'll just get this out and see if anything resonates with you all. It has been two weeks, so forgive if my memory betrays me. It may result in nits to pick, but hopefully I haven't forgotten anything major.

On the surface, the basic story of Rogue One is not unfamiliar - group of underdogs learn of imminent threat of doom, learn of possible perilous solution, pursue said solution, and obtain it at a cost. We don't watch these sorts of movies to see if our heroes triumph - especially in this case, where we all knew going in that the Death Star plans would end up with Princess Leia. Instead, we watch these movies for two reasons: (1) to see just how the heroes will win out and what craziness they will have to engineer and/or endure to do so, and (2) how the pursuit of the goal changes the heroes, which is also where we are meant to see the message of the movie. IMHO, success in only the former yields an exciting first-time viewing experience, but with diminishing returns, while success in the both the former and the latter still excites the viewer, but also forges a deeper connection with the audience, drawing them further into the story, and makes for more emotionally satisfying, and more re-watchable, movie. Rogue One succeeds quite well in constructing overwhelming odds and an exciting, daring scheme; it seems confused as to the story it wants to tell with respect to our heroes, though, and suffers for it.

So first, the good: set up the struggle and have the heroes win out. I loved the establishment of the Empire as Occupier and the foreboding march toward Death Star completion. Tarkin was used to great effect, and the CGI was pretty spot on. Vader was pretty good in the earlier scenes and phenomenal in his final scene. The Death Star sets the stakes high and keeps them there, and Tarkin, Vader, the ubiquity of Imperial forces, and the security of the final imperial base make wonderful insurmountable odds and kept the tension high. Krennic, unfortunately, seemed a bit underwhelming - less of the concealed violence from the trailer, less clear motivation beyond bureaucratic success. The rest of the Empire, however, was still sufficient to create a nice conflict for our heroes.

The first mission to get Galen Erso was interesting - tense, but it seemed a bit too seat-of-your-pants. I loved the x-wing intervention at the end! For the final mission, pairing the space battle and the ground mission together had the danger of feeling disconnected like Return of the Jedi, but the interaction of the different fighting arenas on the ground, and making the joining of the space and ground forces essential to success, kept the action unified. I love me some good space battle, and this was nice to see - redemption after the beginning of Episode III. The deaths of our band of heroes resonated, especially those of the supporting characters, and seemed necessary to victory, highlighting the long odds of success. There were legitimate moments where I was unsure of how they were going to pull it off, which is always a good sign. Nothing seemed too unlikely, far-fetched, or convenient (though was the design of the transmitter just a little convenient? Controls at the top, not in the control booth, and one switch unnecessarily off on its own narrow walkway so to create a tense place to be stopped by the villain?). I thought Rogue One dovetailed really nicely into A New Hope and maybe even raises the stakes for A New Hope, since now we know just how badly Vader wants those plans. Bail Organa and Mon Mothma also work nicely in that regard, though I could have done without the R2D2 and C3PO cameo.

Now, the less good: our heroes' changes and the message of the movie. From the outset, our attention is drawn to motive as Galen Erso tells young Jyn that everything he does, he does for her. A few minutes later, we understand that "everything he does" means "go to work for the evil Empire, from whom he has been hiding." Many of our heroes, specifically, are sketched with different motives - Cassian does bad, sometimes very bad things for the sake of the Rebellion; K2S0 does as he is (re)programmed to do, first for the Empire, now for the Rebels; Donnie Yen's character serves good by operating by literal blind faith, while his skeptical buddy, having lost his own faith, stays out of the struggle, but acts in order to protect his friend, whose faithful example ultimately restores his own faith; Bodhi is a defector, abandoning duty to the empire and joining the rebels. The movie seems to want to examine what it means to fight the good fight - why fight, what is necessary, and how far is too far in a supposedly good fight.

Galen sets up these questions at the beginning and every character encounters them as they join the fight and commit to the final mission. Cassian, in particular, highlights this theme as (1) we first meet him killing an ally in service of the rebellion, an act which he repeats later to save Jyn; (2) he struggles with and ultimately disobeys morally questionable orders that would hurt Jyn; (3) he tells Jyn of his young entry into the fight how he had no choice in the matter; and (4) he states outright that without the rebellion, which may disintegrate without the final mission, all the awful things he has done in its name would be just plain awful things.

In light of this focus, the purpose of Saw Guerrera becomes a little more comprehensible. Saw has gone too far - in fighting an inhuman enemy, he has become inhuman himself. The rebellion leadership discussion, Saw's torture of Bodhi (ridiculous though it was), and even Saw's reliance on prosthetics and breathing assistance for survival like one D. Vader, all seem meant to make this point. This is why we have that unfortunate line that we heard in one of the trailers - "Save the rebellion - save the dream!" - the dream of the good fight. This line is Saw's recognition of his error and (minor) redemption by encouraging Jyn to avoid his fate. The problem, though, is that to do this successfully, we would need to see both the Empire and Saw going too far and understand how the insurmountable odds of the struggle have pushed Saw to become the enemy. This, truly represented, would never fly in a Disney produced Star Wars movie. Instead, we get a very watered down, confusing, and nearly unnecessary side quest. Saw Guerrera, as we see him in the movie, could be replaced with any other character. Make him a local magistrate detaining Bodhi and nothing changes.

This gap in story telling also hurts the character of our heroine Jyn, whom I enjoy very much, but is still lacking, especially in motive. When we meet Jyn, she has been arrested by the Empire for reasons unknown. She is recruited by the rebels to approach Saw Guerrera and locate Jyn's father. Jyn is concerned about her father, but is not concerned with the rebels' cause. In Jyn's encounter with Saw - a fair ways into the movie at this point - we learn that she is in fact a highly skilled insurgent who had a falling out with Saw when he, like her father, abandoned her. Saw's abandonment apparently created a crisis of faith for Jyn, who has apparently given up the fight. After learning from Saw that Jyn's father actively avoided her to keep her safe, Jyn reunites briefly with her father before he dies, then confronts Cassian about his orders to kill her father. Cassian tells Jyn he didn't do it and tells her the empire is such bad news has had no choice but to fight since he was a kid. I think it is the next time we see Jyn that she is imploring the rebel alliance to go after the Death Star plans, and talking about how rebellions are built on hope, and that they have no choice but to fight, especially in the face of such overwhelming odds. From then on, Jyn is committed to the final mission.

Jyn's motive goes from (save father) to (save galaxy, even if it means dying in the process), if memory serves, in the moments off camera between her conversation with Cassian after her father's death and the rebel council meeting. That would be lazy in and of itself, but we also learn a long way into the movie that Jyn had a crisis of faith, not unlike our blind monk's friend - used to be the best fighter for the cause, now has abandoned it. In the brief instant in which we learn of this backstory, we never gain an appreciation for the struggle or impact of this critical moment in Jyn's life. This is especially unfortunate, because it also means that Jyn's decision to join the rebellion fully is also a re-commitment to the cause and overcoming that crisis of faith. Both the crisis and its overcoming happen off camera and strip nearly all of the emotional power from Jyn's decision. For this reason, I felt other deaths of the heroes much moreso than Jyn's - Bodhi, the monk and his friend, and K2SO and all hit me harder. Unfortunately, like Saw, the solution here would be grim - we would need to see, or at least hear in depth, of the pain of Jyn's abandonment and falling out with Saw, so we can see what she risks in joining the fight. The backstory might even naturally flow from Saw's radicalization, but similarly, it might also not fit in Disney's vision or the brand of Star Wars. It is doubly unfortunate that, not only does the movie's hero seem under-motivated, but this is the case where the movie is itself about motives.

With all the talk during production of re-shoots and notes from Disney that the tone of the movie was too dark, it seems to me that the movie was originally meant to be darker: show the dangers of radicalization, even in the service of a good cause, and show that overwhelming odds can be defeated, not by sacrificing innocents through brutality and violence, but by sacrificing yourself through devotion and literal self-sacrifice for others. Rebellions are built on hope, yes, but not always hope for the fighters themselves. Then, the elements of the movie that don't work so well, or are implied but absent, make sense. Instead, notes come in about the tone, most of the grim scenes get dropped, and we are left a great Quest for our heroes, but confusion as to why Saw is around at all and why Jyn is doing what she is doing, and therefore confusion about what we are to take away from the movie.

Having said alllll that, one take away that I was not confused about: I am so glad that this movie was made and will succeed. Small stories, or maybe even different sagas, in the star wars universe have great potential. While I don't think this movie is what it was meant to be our could have been, I still enjoyed it immensely and will see it again in theaters if I can - IMAX this time, judging by all your reports.


Random list of things I loved:

- Vader's chamber on Mustafar. I love that he simmers in hate on the planet where (he thinks) everything was taken from him. His healing/support apparatus was also interesting. We see Luke in a similar-looking bacta tank after the creature attack on Hoth in Empire, but that was a solid container. I saw no such solidity in Rogue One - there is no visible surface retracting when Vader begins to emerge. Whether intentionally or not, the way this scene was shot made it look like Vader was containing his healing substance with the Force. Awesome.

-Vader in the ship corridor. If Nate James were a Sith Lord, this is the sort of bad-wankery that he would perpetrate on the galaxy. Makes me wonder what the Obi-wan/Vader duel could have looked like in A New Hope had it not been made 40 years ago. And yes, I know that we saw duels between masters in the prequel trilogy, but the majority of those looked like they belonged in video games or cartoons. The Force Awakens and Rogue One both favored a more visceral, blunter, and grittier approach to the force and lightsabers. Seeing two former Jedi masters and best friends with decades of force combat experience going at each other with this more grounded take on the combat would be e-p-i-c. Makes me very excited about the rumors that early in Episode VIII we will see Luke Skywalker in combat.

- Donnie Yen. All of him. And yes, Jason, as cool as his first fight with the troopers on Jedha was - and it was so very, very cool - I think my favorite moment was the blind monk being guided by the Force to fire a single shot (with what I had assumed was just a bowstaff up to that point) to shoot down a tie fighter so it crashed into the turbolaser battery that was wrecking the Rebel ships. I'm pretty sure I gave an audible whoop during the movie when that happened. His fights were awesome, and I loved them, but they were fights, and we had seen something like them before, albeit not to that level or in that context. His force-sensitivity is something new and amazing. I love the addition to the Star Wars universe of force-sensitive, non-Jedi individuals guided by the Force in combat. We saw the foundations of this idea of alluded to by Maz Kanata in the Force Awakens of individuals sensing and being guided by the Force, but not able to manipulate it like Jedi, and I love the payoff with this character.

- K2SO. So enjoyable and funny, I love Alan Tudyk. Despite the fact that arguably he had no choice but to go on the mission and die, being programmed and all, I still think I felt his death the most.

Random list of things I did not love:

- Vader's dialogue with Krennic. I didn't get that air of menace and otherworldly power from Vader that I wanted. As the (supposedly) last of the force-users and the Emperor's right hand man with a serious anger problem, I wanted to see the presence we see communicated visually at the beginning of the final corridor fight also present in Vader's dialogue. Except when dealing with Tarkin (ally), the Emperor (master), or Luke in Jedi (son that's growing on him), the original trilogy kept Vader fully in that zone exemplified by the Imperial March. "I find your lack of faith disturbing." "Pray I don't alter it any further." "If you will not turn to the dark side,then perhaps she will." Even the clunky, classically George Lucas lines maintained that aura - "Do not be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The power to destroy a planet is insignificant when compared to the power of the Force." Maybe it was just the delivery this time around - my memory can't bring too much in the way of specifics - but I didn't feel it, Vader seemed more bureaucratic. And the Ahnold one-liner didn't work for me, it seemed out of character, but that may also be because it came at the end of a dialogue-heavy scene during which I was thinking all of the above.

-Saw Guerrera. Aside from the story woes noted above, his breathing assistance irritated me. When paired with his injuries, it seemed like a survival apparatus like Vader's armor, but Forrest Whitaker played it like a kid huffing paint fumes - he would take a hit and his aspect would change. It was ambiguous and distracting. Also, squid torture. Oy.

- Princess Leia CGI was aggressively CGI. Tarkin was much better.

[Dukeface88]

Duuuuh! There are no clouds in space.

You joke, but this is literally true. "The cloud" is merely the distribution of storage space over multiple devices in a network; the information is still physically stored somewhere. You can't upload anything unless you can connect to a network that can access those devices, which might be slightly difficult if you are, say, multiple light years away from other friendly ships or bases. (Yes, the EU has the holonet, but that's restricted to the Imperial military/government, so it isn't something the Rebels can use).


This is something that truly amused me. He killed "all" of the design engineers - there must have been at least a dozen - for a space station the size of a small moon.

[snipped]

And yet, Krennic assembled "all" of the engineers of the Death Star onto a landing pad?

I don't think the movie ever says that was all the engineers period, just all the engineers on Eadu, and therefore all the engineers who could be responsible for leak. Tarkin also has to specifically tell Krennic that Brohdi came from the Eadu facility, which implies there are other facilities, and other teams, elsewhere. Presumably, the Eadu engineers were just responsible for the reactor, since that was Erso's specialty.

My issue is more with Erso trying to save the other engineers - they're collaborators who, unlike him, aren't trying to sabotage the project and are apparently totally fine with developing gigadeath weapons. Their deaths are arguably a good thing, since it gets rid of people who might notice the exhaust port weakness, plus they could end up working on other superweapon projects; instead he compromises his plan to try to protect them.


Also, they were able to repeatedly build copies of the Death Star in subsequent episodes - so somebody must have had a copy of the plans somewhere.

Yes, but the Rebels didn't know that at the time, so not giving the Imperials an extra copy would still be prudent. Also, the plans the Imperials did have might have been incomplete, which would account for the delays Vader complains of at the beginning of Return of the Jedi.

[fuse]

Read an interview with Mendelson (Krennic) suggesting there were at least 3-4 and maybe 15-20 major edits as part of shooting/reshooting that change the movie dramatically enough to be different movies.

Raises some interesting possibilities for Blu Ray release.

[bjornolf]

Everybody's saying Leia went to Tattoine to find Obi Wan. The thing that I didn't understand was how they knew Kenobi was on Tattoine in the first place. Didn't he go there in secret to hide Luke? I thought no one was supposed to know he was there, just like no one was supposed to know who Leia Organa really was.

[Olympic Fan]

Read an interview with Mendelson (Krennic) suggesting there were at least 3-4 and maybe 15-20 major edits as part of shooting/reshooting that change the movie dramatically enough to be different movies.

Raises some interesting possibilities for Blu Ray release.


The best Blu Ray sci fi package I've ever seen is a three disc Brazil. It contains three (very different) versions of Gilliam's masterpiece, plus the documentary "The Battle of Brazil" (about Gilliam's fight to get his version released), plus a ton of outtakes, interviews and the like. It was a fabulous investment.

Almost as good is a three-disc version of Blade Runner that also includes three different versions of the film (including both the narrated and non-narrated versions).

I'd like to think Disney would give us something like those two packages -- maybe not the original release, but soon afterwards. The closest thing to that I've seen from Disney is a three-disc set for Fantasia -- includes the original film, the sequel (Fantasia 2000), a documentary about making the two films and several extra numbers that were filmed but didn't make the cut.

I'd love to see the original "dark" version of Rogue One ... maybe if there is enough pressure from the fans ...

[Tom B.]

Everybody's saying Leia went to Tattoine to find Obi Wan. The thing that I didn't understand was how they knew Kenobi was on Tattoine in the first place. Didn't he go there in secret to hide Luke? I thought no one was supposed to know he was there, just like no one was supposed to know who Leia Organa really was.

Based on the end of Episode 3, it was always my understanding that Bail Organa was in on all the Skywalker-related secrets -- including Yoda's brilliant plan to hide Luke on his father's home planet. With his extended family. Whom Anakin had met. Without changing Luke's last name. And that Obi-Wan would stay on Tattooine to watch over Luke from a distance.

[bjornolf]

Based on the end of Episode 3, it was always my understanding that Bail Organa was in on all the Skywalker-related secrets -- including Yoda's brilliant plan to hide Luke on his father's home planet. With his extended family. Whom Anakin had met. Without changing Luke's last name. And that Obi-Wan would stay on Tattooine to watch over Luke from a distance.

That would kind of surprise me. Pretty dumb to let any one person know where both of the children were. I thought that was the whole point of separating and hiding them. If you can torture any one person, especially a public figure like Organa, and find out where BOTH kids were... seems like a pretty huge flaw in your security plan.

[bjornolf]

Based on the end of Episode 3, it was always my understanding that Bail Organa was in on all the Skywalker-related secrets -- including Yoda's brilliant plan to hide Luke on his father's home planet. With his extended family. Whom Anakin had met. Without changing Luke's last name. And that Obi-Wan would stay on Tattooine to watch over Luke from a distance.

At that point, hadn't the emperor, his master, told Vader that his wife and kids were dead? I doubt searching for them would be at the top of his list.

[tbyers11]

That would kind of surprise me. Pretty dumb to let any one person know where both of the children were. I thought that was the whole point of separating and hiding them. If you can torture any one person, especially a public figure like Organa, and find out where BOTH kids were... seems like a pretty huge flaw in your security plan.

Here is the clip from Episode III


https://youtu.be/pAxKsqkaRqQ

At 2 min, there is the council between Yoda, Organa, and Obi-Wan discussing the fate of Luke and Leia. One point from earlier in the clip. Even if anyone ever wondered what happened to Anakin and Padme's kid they would only be looking for one child. It was a surprise to Yoda and Obi-Wan (and likely Anakin) that Padme was having twins.

[OldPhiKap]

Here is the clip from Episode III


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pAxKsqkaRqQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

At 2 min, there is the council between Yoda, Organa, and Obi-Wan discussing the fate of Luke and Leia. One point from earlier in the clip. Even if anyone ever wondered what happened to Anakin and Padme's kid they would only be looking for one child. It was a surprise to Yoda and Obi-Wan when they found out Padme was having twins.

One would think that if you could design a space ship that can navigate hyperspace across an entire galaxy, one could design a good ultrasound machine.

Or did she just avoid going to the doctor until she went into labor? Puh-lease. You could probably get a home ultrasound kit given the other gizmos available. There's probably even an App for that. Or was. Long ago and far away. And all.

[Edouble]

One would think that if you could design a space ship that can navigate hyperspace across an entire galaxy, one could design a good ultrasound machine.

Or did she just avoid going to the doctor until she went into labor? Puh-lease. You could probably get a home ultrasound kit given the other gizmos available. There's probably even an App for that. Or was. Long ago and far away. And all.

I don't think it was a surprise to Padme that she was having twins. She had a boy name and a girl name all picked out.

She just didn't feel the need to share her reproductive health history with the Jedi council.

[OldPhiKap]

I don't think it was a surprise to Padme that she was having twins. She had a boy name and a girl name all picked out.

She just didn't feel the need to share her reproductive health history with the Jedi council.

Couldn't at least one member of the Jedi counsel have sensed that she was having twins though? I guess I forget when they found out that she was with Jedi child, because I have blanked out the prequels through copious amounts of grain alcohol.

[JasonEvans]

Based on the end of Episode 3, it was always my understanding that Bail Organa was in on all the Skywalker-related secrets -- including Yoda's brilliant plan to hide Luke on his father's home planet. With his extended family. Whom Anakin had met. Without changing Luke's last name. And that Obi-Wan would stay on Tattooine to watch over Luke from a distance.

Repeat after me -- NOTHING IN THE PREQUELS MAKES SENSE.

Your world will be much easier if you adhere to this axiom. George Lucas had no freaking idea what he was doing and did not bother to think about how one event would impact future events. He was really just making it up as he went along from movie-to-movie (heck, he was making it up from scene-to-scene).

The best thing that ever happened to Star Wars was the moment the franchise was sold. I find it somewhat shocking that Disney has invested so much money and energy into actually trying to make good movies with quality filmmakers (and writers) as the public clearly showed our lack of taste in buying so many darn tickets (and DVDs/merchandise) to the utter trainwreck that was Star Wars I-III. Of course, the moviegoing public rewarded Disney for their investment by making Force Awakens the most successful film of all time and Rogue One into another massive worldwide hit. But, I would not have blamed Disney if they put a test pattern on the screen for 2 hours and slapped "Star Wars VII" on it just to see how many hundreds of millions it would make.

https://s30.postimg.org/vddwgcy3l/tp02aw600.gif

-Jason "as an aside, someone spork IrishDevil for me... I need to spread the love but that post deserves some sporks!" Evans

[Olympic Fan]

I was interested -- and briefly confused - by the admiral commanding the rebel fleet in Rogue One.

I thought it was the same admiral -- Admiral "It's a trap!" Ackbar -- who commanded the rebel fleet during the attack on the second Death Star in Return of the Jedi.

But after a little study on the internet, I see that the character in Rogue One is Admiral Raddus. He's played by Paul Casey (Tim Rose played Ackbar).

Obviously, both are specimens of the species Mons Calamari, from (I read, the planet Dak). Is there any reason that the two rebel admirals that we see on screen are from the same planet and are the same odd, fish-headed creatures?

Note: I noticed that Admiral Ackbar (with Tim Rose under the latex) is scheduled to return in Episode VIII.

[OldPhiKap]

I was interested -- and briefly confused - by the admiral commanding the rebel fleet in Rogue One.

I thought it was the same admiral -- Admiral "It's a trap!" Ackbar -- who commanded the rebel fleet during the attack on the second Death Star in Return of the Jedi.

But after a little study on the internet, I see that the character in Rogue One is Admiral Raddus. He's played by Paul Casey (Tim Rose played Ackbar).

Obviously, both are specimens of the species Mons Calamari, from (I read, the planet Dak). Is there any reason that the two rebel admirals that we see on screen are from the same planet and are the same odd, fish-headed creatures?

Note: I noticed that Admiral Ackbar (with Tim Rose under the latex) is scheduled to return in Episode VIII.

I guess, what are the odds of two humanoids from the same part of Tatooine ending up in a Death Star trench, pretending to be shooting womp rats back home in Beggar's Canyon?

[bjornolf]

I was interested -- and briefly confused - by the admiral commanding the rebel fleet in Rogue One.

I thought it was the same admiral -- Admiral "It's a trap!" Ackbar -- who commanded the rebel fleet during the attack on the second Death Star in Return of the Jedi.

But after a little study on the internet, I see that the character in Rogue One is Admiral Raddus. He's played by Paul Casey (Tim Rose played Ackbar).

Obviously, both are specimens of the species Mons Calamari, from (I read, the planet Dak). Is there any reason that the two rebel admirals that we see on screen are from the same planet and are the same odd, fish-headed creatures?

Note: I noticed that Admiral Ackbar (with Tim Rose under the latex) is scheduled to return in Episode VIII.

Um, I don't know. Maybe coordinating an armada is like leading a school of fish?

According to Wookieepedia, the Alliance had a dirth of high level commanders in the early days. Since the Mon Calamari built many of the starships used by the Alliance and were renowned for their organizational skills and analytic minds, they were natural choices as starship and fleet commanders. They were considered brilliant strategists and tacticians in space combat. On top of this, their eyes could move independently and focus on two targets at once, and they saw in a different spectrum of light. I guess these traits were considered advantageous in fleet commanders in a galaxy far, far away.

[Rich]

I was interested -- and briefly confused - by the admiral commanding the rebel fleet in Rogue One.

I thought it was the same admiral -- Admiral "It's a trap!" Ackbar -- who commanded the rebel fleet during the attack on the second Death Star in Return of the Jedi.

But after a little study on the internet, I see that the character in Rogue One is Admiral Raddus. He's played by Paul Casey (Tim Rose played Ackbar).

Obviously, both are specimens of the species Mons Calamari, from (I read, the planet Dak). Is there any reason that the two rebel admirals that we see on screen are from the same planet and are the same odd, fish-headed creatures?

Note: I noticed that Admiral Ackbar (with Tim Rose under the latex) is scheduled to return in Episode VIII.

6996

[duke74]

Not one of the cognoscenti here (which will become obvious), but I found this video on YouTube while rummaging around. Thought it interesting.

https://youtu.be/xERXNtZiNzo

[BD80]

Not one of the cognoscenti here (which will become obvious), but I found this video on YouTube while rummaging around. Thought it interesting.

https://youtu.be/xERXNtZiNzo

Nerds love word games !?!!?!!?

[JasonEvans]

Nerds love word games !?!!?!!?

Danger solved woes, Mr.

[OldPhiKap]

Nerds love word games !?!!?!!?

If this board has taught me anything, it's that they at least enjoy puns.

[brumby041]

Yeah, you'd think a civilization that's technologically advanced enough to have laser blasters, sentient robots, and faster-than-light space travel could've figured out how to upload the plans to a cloud or something.



Loved the movie; I was surprised (disappointed) that in this advanced universe, the one and only copy (!) of the DS plans was stored on an overgrown 1990's-era tape autoloader. Then, it was somehow necessary to physically remove the "tape" (pretty sure they actually used the word "tape") and take it somewhere else to read it. Additionally, that somewhere else conveniently had a slot for the media. (Those of you that work in the technology arena will know what I mean...) Seemed contrived and not at all realistic from a systems perspective. Perhaps they do (did) things differently "long ago and far away"?

Otherwise, I really enjoyed the movie.

[El_Diablo]

Loved the movie; I was surprised (disappointed) that in this advanced universe, the one and only copy (!) of the DS plans was stored on an overgrown 1990's-era tape autoloader. Then, it was somehow necessary to physically remove the "tape" (pretty sure they actually used the word "tape") and take it somewhere else to read it. Additionally, that somewhere else conveniently had a slot for the media. (Those of you that work in the technology arena will know what I mean...) Seemed contrived and not at all realistic from a systems perspective. Perhaps they do (did) things differently "long ago and far away"?

Otherwise, I really enjoyed the movie.

People keep asserting that this was presented as the "only" copy of the Death Star plans. But if I recall correctly, I think Galen just said that the weakness is shown in the "initial" plans that are archived on Scarif. My assumption at the time was that various subsequent versions of the plans existed but that they deliberately hid the weakness. Heck, there may be other versions of the initial plans somewhere too but maybe Galen only knew for sure where this one set was.

I had not thought about the hardware convenience, but it seems pretty logical to me now that I think about it. The plans were probably beamed down to the archives on Scarif, where they burned onto the tape and stored. After retrieving the tape, Jyn uploads it from the exact same station (possibly even the same slot where the tape was created).

[Tom B.]

Loved the movie; I was surprised (disappointed) that in this advanced universe, the one and only copy (!) of the DS plans was stored on an overgrown 1990's-era tape autoloader. Then, it was somehow necessary to physically remove the "tape" (pretty sure they actually used the word "tape") and take it somewhere else to read it. Additionally, that somewhere else conveniently had a slot for the media. (Those of you that work in the technology arena will know what I mean...) Seemed contrived and not at all realistic from a systems perspective. Perhaps they do (did) things differently "long ago and far away"?

They referred to the stolen plans as "data tapes" in SWE4ANH, too. See the clip that I posted here (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?39040-Star-Wars-Rogue-One-SPOILER-THREAD!&p=936469#post936469), starting at the 1:27 mark.

"Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes..." (Emphasis added.)

Of course, when SWE4ANH was made in 1976, "data tapes" were state of the art. But now the line admittedly invites an anachronistic image of rebels sneaking off with a big stack of reel-to-reel tapes that you'd mount on a computer the size of a refrigerator.

[Udaman]

I've seen it twice now, and am basically convinced now that the ship that took off with the plans was not the same one that Leia was on (though the editing made it look that way). When the guy walks in and hands the plans to Leia he says "here's the message we received" or something like that....not "this is what the guy from the other ship gave us."

Again, they didn't do it very well...but the movie ending works much better if you can assume that those two ships were different.

[Doria]

I've seen it twice now, and am basically convinced now that the ship that took off with the plans was not the same one that Leia was on (though the editing made it look that way). When the guy walks in and hands the plans to Leia he says "here's the message we received" or something like that...not "this is what the guy from the other ship gave us."

Again, they didn't do it very well...but the movie ending works much better if you can assume that those two ships were different.

FWIW, the novelization says that the Tantive IV was docked (I think; even in the book it isn't super clear, so if I'm misinterpreting, mea culpa) in the Mon Cal cruiser's hangar bay for repairs. When the cruiser is disabled, immediately prior to Vader boarding it, the Tantive IV launched. So, it's a bit of both.

[niveklaen]

I think Tarken's cgi works better because they didn't use close up face shots of him the way they tried with Leia.

[JasonEvans]

I think Tarken's cgi works better because they didn't use close up face shots of him the way they tried with Leia.

So, how would we all feel about CGI Leia in IX? I'd be fine with it, but I am sure many folks would be upset. All I know is that killing her off off-screen would be awful!

[Doria]

So, how would we all feel about CGI Leia in IX? I'd be fine with it, but I am sure many folks would be upset. All I know is that killing her off off-screen would be awful!

Yeah, I agree that an off-screen death would be terrible, but apart from the question of whether it's "appropriate" to CGI her in, I would personally find it very distracting from the movie. I'd rather see the script adjusted for some other character(s) to serve her narrative function. Thematically, it probably works less well, but that would be my preference. Probably wouldn't be a make or break issue for me either way, though.

[bjornolf]

CGI is fine, just keep away from the closeups and bright lighting. I'd keep her farther away and avoid direct face shots. My problem would be the voice.

[fuse]

So, how would we all feel about CGI Leia in IX? I'd be fine with it, but I am sure many folks would be upset. All I know is that killing her off off-screen would be awful!

I found Tarkin to not be quite real enough to be a distraction.

The Leia CGI seemed worse.

I'm of the opinion that neither an off screen death nor a CGI version is required.

Maybe easier said than done since the rumours were Leia had a big role in IX, the outcome I'd favour best is rewrite IX to exclude Leia.

The Force Awakens was essentially "the search for Luke" so there is a weak precedent.

For example, if IX were to have jedi/sith showdowns with Kylo Ren/Ben Solo and whatever Supreme Leader Snoke is, I imagine the audience would be understandably forgiving of the absence of Carrie Fisher/Leia.

The more fascinating part of the whole resurrection of actors is who owns the rights/gets paid.

In Tarkin's case, I believe Peter Cushing's family was consulted and approved. How long before a family estate expects to get paid?

[JasonEvans]

Maybe easier said than done since the rumours were Leia had a big role in IX, the outcome I'd favour best is rewrite IX to exclude Leia.

Well, no mater what they do with the size of her role, something will have to be done. She can't just disappear... right? The story must explain her absence.

[fuse]

Well, no mater what they do with the size of her role, something will have to be done. She can't just disappear... right? The story must explain her absence.

I don't know if I agree with must.

That said, (and I know the prequels are met with much disdain) if Padme Amidala can die of a broken heart, it's not too far a stretch to have a new Rebel leader have a throw away one liner about Leia retiring/ not able to lead due to the events of force awakens.

Husband killed by son is more then enough for anyone, even General Leia, to step away and grieve.

What I really hope they do not do is the Matrix Oracle replacement and try to find someone else be Leia. That would be unwatchable.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Took advantage of the bitter weather to finally go see the movie. (Too cold to do anything else.) Loved it, and my GF, who I watched the three prequels with prior to seeing Rogue One (that is true love) since she wanted to see them first, also loved it and is looking forward to seeing it again at home.

Just read through the whole thread, which was also fun. A few thoughts.

I didn't mind the R2 and C3PO cameos, especially since they are so integral to the action following the movie's ending. It makes sense that they were on Yavin 4.

I liked Saw's character, but agree that he was pretty much wholly unnecessary. The octopus mind reader was totally stupid and confusing.

There wasn't a single character in the Rogue One unit that I didn't like. That made each scene where they met their demise more meaningful and good cinema. None of those scenes were wasted minutes.

Someone above mentioned "Deep Impact" being stolen from. Both of those scenes, that is exactly what I was thinking, especially at the end.

I always wondered how the Death Star moved around; Rogue One confirmed that it made the jump to light speed. I wish they had shown it in action. Where are the engines?

At the end, Tarkin says to target the Scarif base. The Death Star shoots, hits the antenna tower, and misses the rest of the base by miles. Must have been aimed by a storm trooper.

Looking forward to seeing it at home, with the power of a remote in my hand to rewind. :)

[CameronBornAndBred]

Oh yeah, meant to give my ranking. I don't have a definitive #, it would depend on my mood of the day, but R1 is in my top 3, whereas ep 7 is merely in my top 5. (Force Awakens was extremely well done, but the rehash plot was a letdown.)

[CameronBornAndBred]

Watched the two part mid-season premiere of Rebels last night, and it was great. It sets up an interesting second half of the season, primarily because it reintroduces us to Saw Gerrera. (He is rescued on Geonosis, the home world of the Death Star builders.) Rebels is only 2 or three years out from Rogue One, and at this point Saw (voiced by Forrest Whittaker, thankfully) still has his legs and doesn't have Dennis Hopper's Blue Velvet gas mask. Hopefully they give us the story of how he comes about needing both.
There is a point in the second half where imperial troops drop a detonator at his feet, which was a nice touch of anticipation.
I think in the long run, we will know far more about Saw's story as it leads up to Rogue One, to the point that his presence in the movie works much better. I would love to see them introduce Jyn somewhere along the line. Remember, she gets on him pretty intently for "leaving her behind", a moment which we assume led to her capture and imprisonment. In his eyes, he was protecting her. That series of events would be great to see in Rebels.

(Edit..Wookieepedia says that he abandoned Jyn prior to this episode, so much for seeing that transpire in Rebels. But hopefully they show his legs getting blown/shot/eaten off. :) )

[Udaman]

FWIW, the novelization says that the Tantive IV was docked (I think; even in the book it isn't super clear, so if I'm misinterpreting, mea culpa) in the Mon Cal cruiser's hangar bay for repairs. When the cruiser is disabled, immediately prior to Vader boarding it, the Tantive IV launched. So, it's a bit of both.


But it can't be. Because of the shot of R2 and C3PO. They were down on the other planet when all of the fighter planes were taking off. How could they have then gotten on board one of the ships that was then in the battle? And how would Leia ever be in the battle? And if she was, how could she claim they were on a diplomatic mission when Vader would have just seen them (literally) take off from the battle?

I guess we need another movie that shows what happened from the moment Vader killed all of the Rebels, until they board the ship near Tattoine. It would include them stopping to get R2 and C3PO, though that would have to be somewhere in space, because otherwise they would have just given the plans to the Rebel base when they went there to get R2.

OK...my head is spinning.

[CameronBornAndBred]

But it can't be. Because of the shot of R2 and C3PO. They were down on the other planet when all of the fighter planes were taking off. How could they have then gotten on board one of the ships that was then in the battle? And how would Leia ever be in the battle? And if she was, how could she claim they were on a diplomatic mission when Vader would have just seen them (literally) take off from the battle?

I guess we need another movie that shows what happened from the moment Vader killed all of the Rebels, until they board the ship near Tattoine. It would include them stopping to get R2 and C3PO, though that would have to be somewhere in space, because otherwise they would have just given the plans to the Rebel base when they went there to get R2.

OK...my head is spinning.

R2 and 3PO were in the shot when the Rogue One unit took off. The others didn't give chase until afterwards, when they learned that a few folks had taken it upon themselves to fight anyway. (At least that's the way I took it.) Both had time (along with Leia) to board a ship and move out. Plus...they travel through hyperspace. Nobody asks "are we there yet?" in a galaxy far, far away.

[El_Diablo]

But it can't be. Because of the shot of R2 and C3PO. They were down on the other planet when all of the fighter planes were taking off. How could they have then gotten on board one of the ships that was then in the battle? And how would Leia ever be in the battle? And if she was, how could she claim they were on a diplomatic mission when Vader would have just seen them (literally) take off from the battle?

I guess we need another movie that shows what happened from the moment Vader killed all of the Rebels, until they board the ship near Tattoine. It would include them stopping to get R2 and C3PO, though that would have to be somewhere in space, because otherwise they would have just given the plans to the Rebel base when they went there to get R2.

OK...my head is spinning.

How would Leia and the rest of the crew know that Vader saw them pulling away? They are not omnipotent. But even if they had a high-zoom rearview mirror and realized that they had been seen, what is the better option when he boards in Episode IV: (a) use a relatively flimsy cover story to raise doubts or at least delay attempts to recover the plans or (b) just say "Welp, yeah, you got us...the plans are in that escape pod heading down to Tattooine"?

[Edouble]

But it can't be. Because of the shot of R2 and C3PO. They were down on the other planet when all of the fighter planes were taking off. How could they have then gotten on board one of the ships that was then in the battle? And how would Leia ever be in the battle? And if she was, how could she claim they were on a diplomatic mission when Vader would have just seen them (literally) take off from the battle?

Cameron B&B covers your first issue.


R2 and 3PO were in the shot when the Rogue One unit took off. The others didn't give chase until afterwards, when they learned that a few folks had taken it upon themselves to fight anyway. (At least that's the way I took it.) Both had time (along with Leia) to board a ship and move out. Plus...they travel through hyperspace. Nobody asks "are we there yet?" in a galaxy far, far away.


But it can't be. Because of the shot of R2 and C3PO. They were down on the other planet when all of the fighter planes were taking off. How could they have then gotten on board one of the ships that was then in the battle? And how would Leia ever be in the battle? And if she was, how could she claim they were on a diplomatic mission when Vader would have just seen them (literally) take off from the battle?

Please see posts #43 and #44 in this thread.

[JasonEvans]

Y'all are going to be amazed at this. I have a theory that came to me just the other day regarding the sorta minor continuity errors in Rogue One and A New Hope.

Prepare to have your... https://media.giphy.com/media/5aLrlDiJPMPFS/giphy.gif

I think the two movies were made at different times. I don't mean like a year or two apart. I mean, I think they may have been made 20 or 30 years apart... heck, one dude told me it might have been almost 40 years. I find that sorta hard to believe though because Darth Vader sure looked the same age in both movies.

And if you really want to freak out, there's a rumor that A New Hope was made before Rogue One. I can't full explain it, but if that is true it could explain some of these small, not easy to spot, inconveniences in how the two films mesh together. What's more, if these crazy rumors I have heard are true, it might also explain why Leia looked a little glassy eyed and weird at the end of Rogue One. Someone told me they thought she was stoned out of her mind in that scene, but I think there was some special effects stuff going on there instead.

-Jason "I'm going to head over to Snopes to see if they have heard anything about this insane rumor" Evans

[CameronBornAndBred]

Y'all are going to be amazed at this. I have a theory that came to me just the other day regarding the sorta minor continuity errors in Rogue One and A New Hope.

Prepare to have your... https://media.giphy.com/media/5aLrlDiJPMPFS/giphy.gif

I think the two movies were made at different times. I don't mean like a year or two apart. I mean, I think they may have been made 20 or 30 years apart... heck, one dude told me it might have been almost 40 years. I find that sorta hard to believe though because Darth Vader sure looked the same age in both movies.

And if you really want to freak out, there's a rumor that A New Hope was made before Rogue One. I can't full explain it, but if that is true it could explain some of these small, not easy to spot, inconveniences in how the two films mesh together. What's more, if these crazy rumors I have heard are true, it might also explain why Leia looked a little glassy eyed and weird at the end of Rogue One. Someone told me they thought she was stoned out of her mind in that scene, but I think there was some special effects stuff going on there instead.

-Jason "I'm going to head over to Snopes to see if they have heard anything about this insane rumor" Evans

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7060&stc=1

[fuse]

Y'all are going to be amazed at this. I have a theory that came to me just the other day regarding the sorta minor continuity errors in Rogue One and A New Hope.

Prepare to have your... https://media.giphy.com/media/5aLrlDiJPMPFS/giphy.gif

I think the two movies were made at different times. I don't mean like a year or two apart. I mean, I think they may have been made 20 or 30 years apart... heck, one dude told me it might have been almost 40 years. I find that sorta hard to believe though because Darth Vader sure looked the same age in both movies.

And if you really want to freak out, there's a rumor that A New Hope was made before Rogue One. I can't full explain it, but if that is true it could explain some of these small, not easy to spot, inconveniences in how the two films mesh together. What's more, if these crazy rumors I have heard are true, it might also explain why Leia looked a little glassy eyed and weird at the end of Rogue One. Someone told me they thought she was stoned out of her mind in that scene, but I think there was some special effects stuff going on there instead.

-Jason "I'm going to head over to Snopes to see if they have heard anything about this insane rumor" Evans

Kudos for Jedi Master level snark :-)

[-jk]

And everyone who watches crime procedurals know that they should have some holes in their story or they've collaborated on a cover story. ("Which tire" notwithstanding...)

-jk

[Olympic Fan]

And everyone who watches crime procedurals know that they should have some holes in their story or they've collaborated on a cover story. ("Which tire" notwithstanding...)

-jk

Actually, small inconsistencies are quite common in literary and screen epics.

There are numerous scholars who have used the many inconsistencies on Homer's Iliad and Odyssey to "prove" that the great epics were originally oral compositions. (redacted)

But the best analogy to what we've been debating here is another popular cinematic masterpiece -- Citizen Kane.

Everybody knows the great problem with Welles' storytelling -- no one is in the room to hear Kane's last word. On screen, he gasps "Rosebud" and drops the globe. It shatters on the floor ... THEN a nurse rushes into the room check Kane, then covers him with a sheet.

That raises the question, Who heard him say Rosebud, which drives the plot of the movie?

Well, there is a throwaway line later in the film where Raymond (the Butler) claims that Kane said the word when his second wife left and adds "that other time too." That could be taken to mean that the Butler heard his last word. Was he in the room what Kane died? I guess anything is possible, but Welles doesn't show it -- and it sure looks like the room is empty when the nurse rushes in. On the other hand, the reporters only talk to Raymond late in their search to discover the meaning of Rosebud.

Either way, it is a very sloppy and inconsistent moment in a film that is often touted as the greatest of all time.

I guess Rogue One can survive an inconsistency or two (not that anybody is going to tout it as the greatest film of all time).

[BD80]

... I guess Rogue One can survive an inconsistency or two (not that anybody is going to tout it as the greatest film of all time).

But it is the immediate prequel to the greatest movie of all time ...

[niveklaen]

Well, no mater what they do with the size of her role, something will have to be done. She can't just disappear... right? The story must explain her absence.

Realizing that she had murdered the one true love of her life she leaps into the open maw of the Sarlac Pit Monster so she can spend eternity with her beloved Jabba.

[davekay1971]

Well, no mater what they do with the size of her role, something will have to be done. She can't just disappear... right? The story must explain her absence.

Simplest and most touching thing might be Luke to feel a terrible disturbance in the force and find out the terrible news: General Organa died from a heart attack.

[JasonEvans]

Simplest and most touching thing might be Luke to feel a terrible disturbance in the force and find out the terrible news: General Organa died from a heart attack.

This is the best single idea I have heard.

[IrishDevil]

Simplest and most touching thing might be Luke to feel a terrible disturbance in the force and find out the terrible news: General Organa died from a heart attack.


This is the best single idea I have heard.

Agreed, that would be wonderful, especially since it would echo Leia's own reaction to Han's death.

Apart from how her absence will impact the story, another question that comes to mind is: in Star Wars, our heroes usually shuffle off this mortal coil in such a way as to render funerals impractical. I think Vader is the only precedent for a main character dying and leaving a body behind. Do they leave Leia's death as just an offscreen acknowledgment, or do they include a more forceful memorial to Leia and/or Carrie Fisher - a service, a graveside scene, an epitaph, etc.?

Also, for any who are interested in a discussion of cuts and reshoots, check out this video. Near the end, it includes a supercut of the trailer footage that never made it to the movie proper, which quite highlights that this was once indeed a different movie.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMdGx1U_Pqo

[OldPhiKap]

I still think this is how it should be (and should have been) done:

https://youtu.be/MDUrw7j0UA4

[bjornolf]

Apart from how her absence will impact the story, another question that comes to mind is: in Star Wars, our heroes usually shuffle off this mortal coil in such a way as to render funerals impractical. I think Vader is the only precedent for a main character dying and leaving a body behind. Do they leave Leia's death as just an offscreen acknowledgment, or do they include a more forceful memorial to Leia and/or Carrie Fisher - a service, a graveside scene, an epitaph, etc.?


As far as I know, Obi Wan and Yoda were the only two to do this. Qui Gon Jinn left a body, so did the jedi murdered by the clones, as did those murdered by Anakin at the temple.

[JasonEvans]

I still think this is how it should be (and should have been) done:

https://youtu.be/MDUrw7j0UA4

Have you seen the animated version?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvdoLRBudwU

[IrishDevil]

As far as I know, Obi Wan and Yoda were the only two to do this. Qui Gon Jinn left a body, so did the jedi murdered by the clones, as did those murdered by Anakin at the temple.

Sorry, I was unclear: I wasn't saying that no person or no jedi leaves a body behind when s/he dies. I also wasn't referencing only the jedi-disembodiment death, but more the tendency of the heroes in the Star Wars saga to die in a way that renders funerals impossible - disembodiment (Yoda, Obi Wan, and I suspect Luke, when the time comes), explosions (Biggs, Bail Organa), or long falls (Han, Mace Windu, and I supposed Palpatine, though we wouldn't see his funeral anyway), and thus the lack of a need for funerals of these characters.

But you are absolutely right, I had neglected the prequels - Qui Gon had a pyre similar to Vader's in that movie I wish hadn't happened, and Padme had her own funeral procession after she died of a broken heart (oy). So I suppose precedent exists for main character funerals, albeit precedent I assiduously try to forget. Personally, I hope Leia gets a lighter treatment than Padme did, especially since I suspect her death will need to be at least mostly offscreen, but I suppose we just have to wait and see.

[bjornolf]

Luke gives Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru a funeral in ANH.

[JasonEvans]

LucasFilm/Disney have announced that they will not digitally recreate Princess Leia for Episode IX.

[OldPhiKap]

LucasFilm/Disney have announced that they will not digitally recreate Princess Leia for Episode IX.

Guess they couldn't get the rights, I read they were looking into it with Carrie's estate.

[fuse]

Looks like I am third to the party with the news.
Link:
https://www.cnet.com/news/lucasfilm-cgi-carrie-fisher-princess-leia-general-star-wars-movies-tarkin/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0g&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=587a9bdf04d301103153ed2d&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

[Edouble]

Looks like I am third to the party with the news.
Link:
https://www.cnet.com/news/lucasfilm-cgi-carrie-fisher-princess-leia-general-star-wars-movies-tarkin/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0g&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=587a9bdf04d301103153ed2d&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

Lucasfilm says they have "no plans" to use CGI to recreate Princess Leia for Episode IX. This is very different than saying that they will not use CGI.

I'm picking up an undertone that CGI would be disrespectful for some reason? Am I reading this right? Why is it OK to recreate Peter Cushing's likeness, but not Carrie Fisher's?

[alteran]

Lucasfilm says they have "no plans" to use CGI to recreate Princess Leia for Episode IX. This is very different than saying that they will not use CGI.

I'm picking up an undertone that CGI would be disrespectful for some reason? Am I reading this right? Why is it OK to recreate Peter Cushing's likeness, but not Carrie Fisher's?

Time, most likely.

Seems creepy either way.

[Olympic Fan]

Interesting that Carrie Fisher WILL appear in the next Star Wars (episode VIII).

She had already completed shooting before her death.

The story I read said that she was going to have a larger role in Episode IX -- obviously that has to change. I wonder if they play with the story in VIII to set up her death?

[niveklaen]

Time, most likely.

Seems creepy either way.

I thought they paid cushing's estate for the rights