How impressive was Tatum?!?

[UrinalCake]

Only a couple days removed from his debut game in which he looked like he still had a ways to go to get fully healthy and conditioned and to shake off the rust. Instead he comes up on a huge stage in MSG and puts up 20 points, plays great D, passes well, and looked like he still could have done more. He took some crazy fadeaway jumpers with a defender in his grill and hit them, which he is known for. There will be some games where those shots aren't falling and fans are gonna go berserk. But he did a little of everything, not just take jump shots. He also gave us a new dimension that we haven't had at all this season which is a guy who can get out in transition. Really adds yet another weapon to our team to have that threat of him running out ahead of the D, and it causes the opponent to maybe be a little less aggressive on the offensive boards.

Overall he looked as good as advertised, and he still has a ton of room for improvement. I know his defense was a bit of a question mark coming into the season, but he was staying in front of his man and getting a hand up and most importantly the effort was there on that end, which is a hugely positive sign.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Only a couple days removed from his debut game in which he looked like he still had a ways to go to get fully healthy and conditioned and to shake off the rust. Instead he comes up on a huge stage in MSG and puts up 20 points, plays great D, passes well, and looked like he still could have done more. He took some crazy fadeaway jumpers with a defender in his grill and hit them, which he is known for. There will be some games where those shots aren't falling and fans are gonna go berserk. But he did a little of everything, not just take jump shots. He also gave us a new dimension that we haven't had at all this season which is a guy who can get out in transition. Really adds yet another weapon to our team to have that threat of him running out ahead of the D, and it causes the opponent to maybe be a little less aggressive on the offensive boards.

Overall he looked as good as advertised, and he still had a ton of room for improvement.

Dude. If you're gonna start a thread about the next Paul Pierce, you gotta get the facts right. It's 22 points. ;)

I'm on board. I love this kid already. His offense isn't a surprise, but his D and rebounding are. Per 40 min, he's averaging 13 rebounds a game. Also, he's engaged defensively and he's quick and long enough to bother big men.

Yesterday, he proved that he's an unstoppable 4. Can he be effective at the 3? Not sure, but I don't really care. Tatum is almost as studdly as Channing.

[Troublemaker]

How 'bout that Dirk-style one-legged jumpshot he hit?

Also, continuing the pattern he exhibited in high school, Jayson is someone who is going to get fouled a lot. And he's money at the line. There'll be occasions where the basketball dorks cringe at the long 2s he will take, but overall, he's going to be a very efficient offensive player because of his ability to get to the line and cash in.

[OldPhiKap]

How 'bout that Dirk-style one-legged jumpshot he hit?

Also, continuing the pattern he exhibited in high school, Jayson is someone who is going to get fouled a lot. And he's money at the line. There'll be occasions where the basketball dorks cringe at the long 2s he will take, but overall, he's going to be a very efficient offensive player because of his ability to get to the line and cash in.

8-8 from the line in his first big game was sweet.

Kid can ball. And remember, he was a package with his buddy Harry. Wait until they get on the floor together.

[DUKIECB]

I thought his best play of the night was the block he got which was whistled for a foul. I thought, as did the announcers, that it was a clean play and an incredible one at that. Very athletic and explosive. He had another play where he clean stripped the ball from someone in the lane that shows he has super quick hands.

I also love the way he immediately looks to break out down the floor on a miss or turnover and how fast he is at doing it. Reminds me of Lebron doing that all the time. This adds yet another killer dimension in which teams are going to have nightmares of how to defend.

[InSpades]

I'm not sure if any of his 8 free throws hit the rim. He looked like a machine shooting them.

There were something like 6 times he basically just told his defender "you can't guard me" and then proved it.

His 1st step was lightning quick.

He had a head scratcher or 2 (most of them team did) but WOW. Color me impressed.

As good as advertised.

I felt lucky to be in the building last night.

[atoomer0881]

I was at the Garden last night and you could just see how dominant he is - and will become - at this level. There were several times in the 2nd half where they ran the same play several times in a row, just giving the ball to Jayson to do some iso work, and you just knew that his defender had no chance in hell in sticking with him. The guy is already on another level and it was only his second game back! This just really excites me for when this team is fully healthy and gelled and in the swing of things come February and March. They are going to be scary good! And just wait until Harry returns!

[dukebluesincebirth]

"I heard Kyrie talking to me, so it was just a good moment."- Tatum after hitting back-to-back step-back jumpers.

The free throw shooting will be a HUGE factor in March Madness when they start blowing the whistles a little more quickly. He has so much athleticism and explosiveness... you want to let him score? or would you rather get into foul trouble trying to defend him? If he can shoot 90% from the FT line, he will make a living there! Add Kennard and HGIII to the attack mode??? Wow.

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

I'm on board. I love this kid already. His offense isn't a surprise, but his D and rebounding are. Per 40 min, he's averaging 13 rebounds a game. Also, he's engaged defensively and he's quick and long enough to bother big men.

Could not agree more. I thought what really got the team going was his steals late in the first half that led to offense. Our teams are always great offensively, but our greatest teams have defenses that lead to easy offense. Some of our more recent teams have been missing that element IMO.

[53n206]

"I heard Kyrie talking to me, so it was just a good moment."- Tatum after hitting back-to-back step-back jumpers.

The free throw shooting will be a HUGE factor in March Madness when they start blowing the whistles a little more quickly. He has so much athleticism and explosiveness... you want to let him score? or would you rather get into foul trouble trying to defend him? If he can shoot 90% from the FT line, he will make a living there! Add Kennard and HGIII to the attack mode??? Wow.

No mention of Allen. Wow! How good can we be?

[Duke79UNLV77]

I love that he made a point to give the ball to captain Amile to dribble out the clock at the end of the game and the story about him suggesting to Amile in an earlier game that the team needed his senior voice at a key point. Great signs for chemistry and an eagerness to learn.

[whereinthehellami]

Exciting player and he is off to a good start. But I'm not a fan of the difficult 2 for no reason. I get that he can hit them but why take them until you need to.

[MChambers]

"I heard Kyrie talking to me, so it was just a good moment."- Tatum after hitting back-to-back step-back jumpers.

The free throw shooting will be a HUGE factor in March Madness when they start blowing the whistles a little more quickly. He has so much athleticism and explosiveness... you want to let him score? or would you rather get into foul trouble trying to defend him? If he can shoot 90% from the FT line, he will make a living there! Add Kennard and HGIII to the attack mode??? Wow.

Based on the little I saw from Tatum before he was hurt, in Countdown to Craziness, I was worried that his game was based too much on difficult fadeaways, but last night's performance eased my concerns. With his strength, he needs to be willing to shoot through contact and draw fouls. (As an aside, why wasn't there a foul on his bucket at the end of the half?)

[tux]

Based on the little I saw from Tatum before he was hurt, in Countdown to Craziness, I was worried that his game was based too much on difficult fadeaways, but last night's performance eased my concerns. With his strength, he needs to be willing to shoot through contact and draw fouls. (As an aside, why wasn't there a foul on his bucket at the end of the half?)

I hear you re: the fadeaways, but great players can hit those shots. I wouldn't want Matt taking a bunch of fadeaway jumpers, but Tatum may be a player for whom that's a good shot. He's not Kobe or MJ, but those guys made a living hitting mid-range fadeaways --- it's almost unguardable. Get Tatum on the block with a guy his size or smaller --- not a bad option. He's clearly comfortable doing it...

[JNort]

I agree with almost everything already stated. I want to throw a couple of cons out though.

I think his decision making still needs plenty of work. Way too may bad decisions when he starts to drive.

I also disagree with this notion of good defense. He hasn't been able to stay in front of anybody on the wings and loses his man when off the ball. Thankfully he is long and able to mask some of those mistakes.

[OZ]

I hear you re: the fadeaways, but great players can hit those shots. I wouldn't want Matt taking a bunch of fadeaway jumpers, but Tatum may be a player for whom that's a good shot. He's not Kobe or MJ, but those guys made a living hitting mid-range fadeaways --- it's almost unguardable. Get Tatum on the block with a guy his size or smaller --- not a bad option. He's clearly comfortable doing it...


I'll admit, when I first saw Tatum, I was surprised he took that fade-away shot. Now, I gather, that's his shot. I noticed that when he went up to shoot, so did his teammates - anticipating it to go in - as when Kennard shoots the three. I'm guessing they have seen that before in practice. One thing is for certain, he has added a new dimension to this team... and its clear, he's going to get better.
As to Allen, last year, he seemed to take the team on his shoulders. This year, because of the injuries and no "proven" consistent scorer, he looked as if everything depended upon him. Much of his game was still there - leadership, pace of game, defense, assists, energy, reckless driving of the ball, etc. - then multiple nagging injuries took their toll. Yet, to his credit, he kept trying to play through them. Last night, at times, he looked a little lost and tried to force things. With the emergence of Kennard and the addition of the new man, his scoring wasn't as critical. For the first time, in a long time, I actually forgot he was out there; and once when I intentionally looked for him, he was on the bench (a rarity in itself). In fairness to Allen, I think he has injuries that need rest/healing and now team adjustments that need to be made. When this happens and we have a fourth place to go for offense, this team will be a level better. I just have to keep remembering, this is a team in the making. It's a long season yet, and this team has the possibility of becoming so much better. My job as a Dukie - support and patience.

[MChambers]

I hear you re: the fadeaways, but great players can hit those shots. I wouldn't want Matt taking a bunch of fadeaway jumpers, but Tatum may be a player for whom that's a good shot. He's not Kobe or MJ, but those guys made a living hitting mid-range fadeaways --- it's almost unguardable. Get Tatum on the block with a guy his size or smaller --- not a bad option. He's clearly comfortable doing it...

I see your point, but in college how many players are able to guard Tatum shooting a normal jumper? Yes, in the NBA it will be an important tool, but in Duke games I'd rather have him drawing a ton of fouls. I don't want to make a big deal about the fadeaway, but I hope it's something we see once or twice a game, and not more.

[niveklaen]

Dude. If you're gonna start a thread about the next Paul Pierce, you gotta get the facts right. It's 22 points. ;)

I'm on board. I love this kid already. His offense isn't a surprise, but his D and rebounding are. Per 40 min, he's averaging 13 rebounds a game. Also, he's engaged defensively and he's quick and long enough to bother big men.

Yesterday, he proved that he's an unstoppable 4. Can he be effective at the 3? Not sure, but I don't really care. Tatum is almost as studdly as Channing.

22 rounds to 20. I could go on a rant about significant figures and the arbitrariness of 10pt increments, but that's another thread... :)

[Troublemaker]

Based on the little I saw from Tatum before he was hurt, in Countdown to Craziness, I was worried that his game was based too much on difficult fadeaways, but last night's performance eased my concerns. With his strength, he needs to be willing to shoot through contact and draw fouls. (As an aside, why wasn't there a foul on his bucket at the end of the half?)

On that shot, the ref on the baseline put his hands in the air (like a touchdown sign), indicating that he saw the Florida big man did not violate the principle of verticality, i.e. he's allowed to go straight up and down to challenge a shot.

[English]

I just have to keep remembering, this is a team in the making. It's a long season yet, and this team has the possibility of becoming so much better. My job as a Dukie - support and patience.

Absolutely agree, as does K. In his post-game comments, Coach K explicitly said that because of the injuries, the team is basically in October mode when everyone else is in December mode. Obviously, this team's October mode is devastating, but if true, it's even more devastating to ACC coaches' collective blood pressure and sleep patterns.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Absolutely agree, as does K. In his post-game comments, Coach K explicitly said that because of the injuries, the team is basically in October mode when everyone else is in December mode. Obviously, this team's October mode is devastating, but if true, it's even more devastating to ACC coaches' collective blood pressure and sleep patterns.

Good news is that Duke only has one challenging game in the next 34 days. That team is Virginia Tech. All the other teams - UNLV, Tenn State, Elon, GT, and BC - are sub-100 in kenpom.

Practice, get healthy, and take some line-up risks (including getting Bolden plenty of time).

It's a good time to be a Duke fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lmb]

Absolutely agree, as does K. In his post-game comments, Coach K explicitly said that because of the injuries, the team is basically in October mode when everyone else is in December mode. Obviously, this team's October mode is devastating, but if true, it's even more devastating to ACC coaches' collective blood pressure and sleep patterns.

I'm curious about how everything being pushed back will affect the usual January 'hitting the freshman wall' thing. Will they hit the wall in February instead? - lol
But seriously, it will be interesting to see how their games ebb and flow. Giles won't have hardly any game mileage on his tires but he's still practicing, going to team meetings, going to classes, etc. I would imagine those things are just as much a part of the adjustment as playing in a game.

It's exciting to watch this team come together!

[subzero02]

No mention of Allen. Wow! How good can we be?

This has to be especially frustrating for Grayson. He was expecting to have a diminished offensive role this year but he probably wasn't expecting to experience diminished athleticism. He's a winner by nature so hopefully having a significant role on a dominant team helps to dampen his frustrations as he heals.

[UrinalCake]

I see your point, but in college how many players are able to guard Tatum shooting a normal jumper? Yes, in the NBA it will be an important tool, but in Duke games I'd rather have him drawing a ton of fouls. I don't want to make a big deal about the fadeaway, but I hope it's something we see once or twice a game, and not more.

Yeah I think he shoots it a couple times a game and it opens up the rest of his game because now the defender has to honor that shot so he has to guard him more closely, which in turn makes it easier for Tatum to drive past him. Agree that you don't want him relying exclusively on that shot but it's been his shot all through high school and all of his teammates at Duke said over the summer that he consistently hits tough shots while being well-defended. When we get to the tourney and the pace of the game slows down, having a guy who can generate offense out of nothing is so critical and we have like six guys who can do that.

[MChambers]

On that shot, the ref on the baseline put his hands in the air (like a touchdown sign), indicating that he saw the Florida big man did not violate the principle of verticality, i.e. he's allowed to go straight up and down to challenge a shot.

Thanks for the explanation. That was my guess, but I didn't know that what the referee was doing was signaling that. Too bad the player was moving sideways, while his arms were straight up and down. I think the referee blew that call, although I do firmly believe in the principle of verticality.

[Listen to Quants]

I agree with almost everything already stated. I want to throw a couple of cons out though.

I think his decision making still needs plenty of work. Way too may bad decisions when he starts to drive.

I also disagree with this notion of good defense. He hasn't been able to stay in front of anybody on the wings and loses his man when off the ball. Thankfully he is long and able to mask some of those mistakes.

D is key.

I wanted to watch his defense more, but the bits I saw he was losing his man off ball. That might be 'easy' to work on. Team D is perhaps harder. If you watched his D much, did you see his rotations on opponent drives to the hoop and such? I didn't even note his box outs. Does he do that or did he just do the go get the ball rebounding 'technique?'

[devildeac]

Based on the little I saw from Tatum before he was hurt, in Countdown to Craziness, I was worried that his game was based too much on difficult fadeaways, but last night's performance eased my concerns. With his strength, he needs to be willing to shoot through contact and draw fouls. (As an aside, why wasn't there a foul on his bucket at the end of the half?)


Check the refs names...

:rolleyes::mad:

[MChambers]

Roger Ayers, Mike Roberts, Mike Eades. Have to say I'm not that up on refs these days.

[porkpa]

The good news is that we have Jayson Tatum. The bad news is that we won't have him next year.

[jv001]

The good news is that we have Jayson Tatum. The bad news is that we won't have him next year.

I'm sure going to enjoy him this season. He looks like he's every bit as good as I heard on offense and even better on defense. GoDuke!

[devildeac]

Roger Ayers, Mike Roberts, Mike Eades. Have to say I'm not that up on refs these days.

Several in DBR chat last PM shared our displeasure with that crew and most agreed the no-call on the play you mentioned was particularly disagreeable.

[JetpackJesus]

Thanks for the explanation. That was my guess, but I didn't know that what the referee was doing was signaling that. Too bad the player was moving sideways, while his arms were straight up and down. I think the referee blew that call, although I do firmly believe in the principle of verticality.

Troublemaker is right about what the ref signalled. The problem is that the Florida defender did not maintain verticality with his arms. I think the body contact was clean, but he clearly lowered the arms and hit Tatum's arm(s) as he took the shot.

I just found the following image while Googling for a replay:

6924
Image Source (http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/ben-frederickson/benfred-tatum-already-shining-on-college-basketball-s-biggest-stage/article_0ec6b99c-c42e-5f93-b65f-2300731bbf42.html)

That there is illegal and definitely not vertical.

Here's a good replay angle of it, too (backup to 1:07 mark if you want to watch the whole play):


https://youtu.be/uvfdkSXOusg?t=1m19s

[Furniture]

Men against boys. Simple as that!

[Volunteer Duke]

I loved his offensive contributions, but his defensive and rebounding contributions were just as good.

He's a tremendously flexible player. Could play 2-4 in the NBA and the 1 in a pinch, IMO. He's that good.

I am very excited to see how he meshes with Harry and Bolden. Those 3 at the 3/4/5 spots would be an absolute defensive and rebounding nightmare.

[Indoor66]

I loved his offensive contributions, but his defensive and rebounding contributions were just as good.

He's a tremendously flexible player. Could play 2-4 in the NBA and the 1 in a pinch, IMO. He's that good.

I am very excited to see how he meshes with Harry and Bolden. Those 3 at the 3/4/5 spots would be an absolute defensive and rebounding nightmare.

Imagine with Grayson and Luke at the guards. Try picking your poison with that lineup! 😈😁😠😎

[UrinalCake]

Troublemaker is right about what the ref signalled. The problem is that the Florida defender did not maintain verticality with his arms. I think the body contact was clean, but he clearly lowered the arms and hit Tatum's arm(s) as he took the shot.

I've watched the replay a few times and definitely thought it was a foul. Not only did the defender's arms come down but he didn't jump straight up; he jumped into Tatum and his body only went up after it bounced off of Tatum's body. But refs are always hesitant to call a foul right at the buzzer of the half or of the game, so it's not too surprising that this wasn't called.

[Troublemaker]

I also disagree with this notion of good defense. He hasn't been able to stay in front of anybody on the wings and loses his man when off the ball. Thankfully he is long and able to mask some of those mistakes.

Overall, I was happy with Jayson's defense in this game. There was one time late in the 1st half when he closed out poorly and allowed a blow-by for a layup, but otherwise I thought he defended penetration fine. Very often, the technique Duke perimeter defenders use on defense is to force the ball-handler away from the middle and funnel them towards the big man. So when you see the ball-handler "getting by" a Duke defender, who is on his hip, it's not necessarily bad defense.


D is key.

I wanted to watch his defense more, but the bits I saw he was losing his man off ball. That might be 'easy' to work on. Team D is perhaps harder. If you watched his D much, did you see his rotations on opponent drives to the hoop and such? I didn't even note his box outs. Does he do that or did he just do the go get the ball rebounding 'technique?'

Twice late in the 2nd half, Jayson was a weakside defender on pick-n-roll, and he helped inside on the roller while his man popped outside for an open 3 that ended up swishing through the net (twice). And even that isn't necessarily bad defense either, depending on how Coach K teaches him to read the play. Other than that, I thought he was fine off-ball.

[OldPhiKap]

Listening to coach after the game, I'm not sure Jayson has really even practiced with the team for any extended period. His defense will come.

[jimsumner]

Imagine with Grayson and Luke at the guards. Try picking your poison with that lineup! ��������

Maybe, perhaps we could kinda, maybe, sorta find a few minutes for that Jefferson guy. He seems to have a knack for this sort of thing.

[NSDukeFan]

Maybe, perhaps we could kinda, maybe, sorta find a few minutes for that Jefferson guy. He seems to have a knack for this sort of thing.
You mean the double double guy who anchors the defense and seems to be an emotional and overall leader? Might as well give him some minutes.

[Troublemaker]

Very often, the technique Duke perimeter defenders use on defense is to force the ball-handler away from the middle and funnel them towards the big man. So when you see the ball-handler "getting by" a Duke defender, who is on his hip, it's not necessarily bad defense.

Case in point here. Many casual Duke fans would think that Luke was "blown by" here when it's actually part of our scheme to force the ball-handler away from the middle and into Amile.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AcademicSevereGuillemot-size_restricted.gif

A right-handed guard driving left into a teardrop over a challenging big man is a low percentage shot. This was good defense by Duke.

(Notice Matt coming in at the end and tipping the ball away, preventing Amile's man from getting an easy putback.)