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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 78, Mich St 69 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
11-29-2016, 11:31 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

DukeWarhead
11-29-2016, 11:34 PM
Bettah second half. Will take it. Now let's see us at full roster, please.

evrim
11-29-2016, 11:35 PM
we did good.

Karl Beem
11-29-2016, 11:36 PM
we did good.

No, we bad.

Dev11
11-29-2016, 11:39 PM
Duke used only 6 players in a November game. K is not messing around with a bench this year.

ipatent
11-29-2016, 11:40 PM
They responded well in the second half, but the lack of a point guard and guard quickness on defense again showed.

Troublemaker
11-29-2016, 11:40 PM
Proud of our 6-man team for mucking out a win, to use a K-ism. We shot horribly and transition D needs work, but we did play well overall to win this game.

Defensively, we followed the gameplan well. MSU typically shoots 43% of their shots from 3 (hitting at a very good rate of 38.7%), but in this game, we held them to 16 attempts (and they only hit 5). We also held MSU to just 8 offensive rebounds and, in fact, we beat them solidly on 2nd-chance points. Finally, Matt with some help from Amile totally frustrated their best player Bridges. If Duke could've played better transition D and if we had just hit our open shots at a normal rate, this would've been an easy win. Don't be fooled. We played well, considering the circumstances of a 6-man team missing our rim protectors.

BlueDevilBrowns
11-29-2016, 11:42 PM
Duke used only 6 players in a November game. K is not messing around with a bench this year.

When you consider he has 3 potential starters out injured, you could argue he is developing a 9 man rotation as we speak.

devildeac
11-29-2016, 11:43 PM
Amile: 17/13/3A

Well played. Very well played.

DukieInBrasil
11-29-2016, 11:44 PM
our performance in the first half was amazing. -ly bad. But we still were tied at the half. We did play quite well in the 2nd half, but that was ugly.
Matt and Luke went a combined 1-13 3FGs, atrocious.

FerryFor50
11-29-2016, 11:45 PM
Defense was so-so in the first half. Some lapses in the halfcourt on drives, then some poor transition D. That's why they were tied.

2nd half defense was WAY better, which is why they outscored MSU by 9 in the 2nd half.

Offensively, both teams missed some bunnies, so that was a wash. Luke needs to regain his 3pt stroke, but was masterful on drives and mid-range jumpers.

In this game, almost every player that played stepped up big on offense - other than Matt. He had a pretty awful day shooting, but made up for it with his defense on Bridges.

And how about Chase Jeter? Putting in big time minutes against top tier opponents like KU and MSU. Great to see him starting to find his niche.

devildeac
11-29-2016, 11:47 PM
Defense was so-so in the first half. Some lapses in the halfcourt on drives, then some poor transition D. That's why they were tied.

2nd half defense was WAY better, which is why they outscored MSU by 9 in the 2nd half.

Offensively, both teams missed some bunnies, so that was a wash. Luke needs to regain his 3pt stroke, but was masterful on drives and mid-range jumpers.

In this game, almost every player that played stepped up big on offense - other than Matt. He had a pretty awful day shooting, but made up for it with his defense on Bridges.

And how about Chase Jeter? Putting in big time minutes against top tier opponents like KU and MSU. Great to see him starting to find his niche.

Matt did have 4A and 4 steals but missed badly on several 3s. How about that floater he mad for his only points? ;)

duke4ever19
11-29-2016, 11:48 PM
6909
6908
6910

COYS
11-29-2016, 11:51 PM
Defense: mostly really good. And that's all I need to be satisfied. We just look so different on that end of the court from last year. The spartan's aren't an offensive juggernaut or anything, but they are a solid team with a good mix of shooters and athletic players who can put points on the board in a hurry if you let them. We did a good job keeping them off the offensive glass, limited their looks from three, and pressuring them into some turnovers. Save for some shoddy transition D, it was a great performance. We held them under 1.00 point per possession, which ain't half bad at all.

Offense: This was not a night to remember in terms of efficiency, but even with the Freshman trio out and Grayson hobbled, this team is just loaded with talent. Matt was uncharacteristically poor from long range. Luke struggled from three. We had some turnovers and missed layups. And yet we still got a reminder of how dominant a healthy Grayson can be. We caught a glimpse of how dynamic Frank will be. Luke can score in so many ways he's effective even when his three point shot isn't falling. Amile has become a reliable scorer. Even when our offense isn't clicking, we still find a way to put points on the board.

Overall, I'm just so happy with how our defense has looked. I'm not remotely concerned with one below average offensive night. Hopefully we will continue to get healthy over the next few weeks so we can finally start to see how the team will take shape when all of our weapons are available.

DavidBenAkiva
11-30-2016, 12:01 AM
Duke shoots 45% from the floor, 27% from 3, and 55% from the line... and won the second half with ease. Man, I am looking forward to the following:

Getting healthy and practicing during the finals and Christmas breaks
Not watching multiple players limp around the court
Not wondering worrying about foul trouble in the frontcourt
Not wondering if Duke's freshmen will play this season

CDu
11-30-2016, 12:03 AM
Great game by Jefferson. Steady and productive. Gobbled up rebounds, was a presence on offense.

Awesome second half for Allen after a shaky first half. His 3s really made a difference.

Kennard was amazing inside the arc. Outside it? Notsomuch. Still, another strong all-around showing.

Jones was atrocious shooting the ball, but he did a phenomenal job taking away Bridges. I counted twice that Jones lost Bridges for offensive rebounds. One went for a hellacious missed dunk, the other for a poster. But aside from that, Jones locked him up. And despite that, he still had time to force a bunch of turnovers. Tonight was exhibit A of why Jones gets PT. He just gets it on defense. And on a team with so many shot creators around him, that is a valuable role for this team.

Jackson is dynamite attacking the rim. He is fun to watch.

Jeter made solid contributions as the sixth man.

I haven't checked the stats, but I suspect we shot poorly from 3 and from the line. That and the number of transition buckets (especially off our made baskets) we allowed was the only disappointment from tonight's game. But we won relatively comfortably, so I will take it.

Troublemaker
11-30-2016, 12:04 AM
David Glenn Show ‏@DavidGlennShow (https://twitter.com/DavidGlennShow) 6m6 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/DavidGlennShow/status/803824785801302020)
Izzo: I really like what Jefferson does for them. He just quietly does his job. He and Matt Jones, those are their warriors.


Duke BasketballVerified account ‏@DukeMBB (https://twitter.com/DukeMBB) 11m11 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/DukeMBB/status/803823517535993856)
"I'm gonna go ahead and start the campaign. Matt Jones for Defensive Player of the Year. He anchors our D every game."-Amile Jefferson


Fans on twitter:

Carter D. Rosette ‏@Carrose22 (https://twitter.com/Carrose22) 34m34 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/Carrose22/status/803817854315429889)Laramie, WY (https://twitter.com/search?q=place%3Ab4fa2987bd7d8a3c)
MATT JONES IS THE WORST D1 BASKETBALL PLAYER IN THE COUNTRY HE WOULDNT PLAY FOR WYOMING #GoDuke (https://twitter.com/hashtag/GoDuke?src=hash)


Crazie-Talk ‏@crazietalker (https://twitter.com/crazietalker) 37m37 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/crazietalker/status/803817244522385408)
Matt Jones ate too much stuffing.


Kaitlin Tomassoni ‏@ktomassoni1 (https://twitter.com/ktomassoni1) 38m38 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/ktomassoni1/status/803817140700774405)
Matt jones you disappoint me


Ryan Krawczeniuk ‏@RyanK11_570 (https://twitter.com/RyanK11_570) 39m39 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/RyanK11_570/status/803817086418030592)
I can't stand watching matt Jones play basketball

gofurman
11-30-2016, 12:06 AM
That post above (Twitter peeps) just disappoints me in humanity. Yes, tonight Jones shot horribly from three... No doubt. but these people don't watch defense apparently. They just note O. Matt was instrumental on D and will be needed going forward if - please - we get all our players in ... Young players struggle w D

CDu
11-30-2016, 12:11 AM
That post above (Twitter peeps) just disappoints me in humanity

It just goes to show you that plenty of people only recognize the value of scoring, and don't recognize the defensive side of the ball other than blocked shots and steals.

The sad part is that Jones also had 4 steals, a charge taken, and another forced turnover on an inbounds play. Yet some people still only see the bad shooting night and limited offensive skill set.

heyman25
11-30-2016, 12:25 AM
Duke shoots 45% from the floor, 27% from 3, and 55% from the line... and won the second half with ease. Man, I am looking forward to the following:

Getting healthy and practicing during the finals and Christmas breaks
Not watching multiple players limp around the court
Not wondering worrying about foul trouble in the frontcourt
Not wondering if Duke's freshmen will play this season
2 months and no Tatum, no Giles and no Bolden. I must admit this song rings true. Tired of waiting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLAuxLqln5s .I was tempted to go to Las Vegas to see the team play live,but I want to see the future. I understand the lack of information,but we know nothing. Its kind of like the Kyrie Irving experience. I will stay home and watch the team on TV. If I knew Tatum or Giles or Bolden would be playing I would go.It is my only opportunity to see them thus far in the season.Perhaps Later in February we may still be wondering what is their status.Any way the referees have made the game difficult to watch. Duke won but won ugly tonight. Allen still seems to be off physically. Kennard and Jefferson are the best on the team in my opinion.The others look good at times, but are very inconsistent. Jeter is benefitting from our 3 lottery pick injured reserves.

DU82
11-30-2016, 12:30 AM
It just goes to show you that plenty of people only recognize the value of scoring, and don't recognize the defensive side of the ball other than blocked shots and steals.

The sad part is that Jones also had 4 steals, a charge taken, and another forced turnover on an inbounds play. Yet some people still only see the bad shooting night and limited offensive skill set.

Coach K said it best by his actions - when Chase came in at the end of the game to replace one player, an action usually reserved for the day's best player, he took out Matt. Big bear hug on the sidelines.

tbyers11
11-30-2016, 12:39 AM
2 months and no Tatum, no Giles and no Bolden. I must admit this song rings true. Tired of waiting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLAuxLqln5s .I was tempted to go to Las Vegas to see the team play live,but I want to see the future. I understand the lack of information,but we know nothing. Its kind of like the Kyrie Irving experience. I will stay home and watch the team on TV. If I knew Tatum or Giles or Bolden would be playing I would go.It is my only opportunity to see them thus far in the season.Perhaps Later in February we may still be wondering what is their status.Any way the referees have made the game difficult to watch. Duke won but won ugly tonight. Allen still seems to be off physically. Kennard and Jefferson are the best on the team in my opinion.The others look good at times, but are very inconsistent. Jeter is benefitting from our 3 lottery pick injured reserves.

To each their own, but as a Duke basketball fan I attend a game to watch the Duke team play regardless of who is suiting up for that particular game.

Utley
11-30-2016, 12:42 AM
2 months and no Tatum, no Giles and no Bolden. I must admit this song rings true. Tired of waiting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLAuxLqln5s .I was tempted to go to Las Vegas to see the team play live,but I want to see the future. I understand the lack of information,but we know nothing. Its kind of like the Kyrie Irving experience. I will stay home and watch the team on TV. If I knew Tatum or Giles or Bolden would be playing I would go.It is my only opportunity to see them thus far in the season.Perhaps Later in February we may still be wondering what is their status.Any way the referees have made the game difficult to watch. Duke won but won ugly tonight. Allen still seems to be off physically. Kennard and Jefferson are the best on the team in my opinion.The others look good at times, but are very inconsistent. Jeter is benefitting from our 3 lottery pick injured reserves.

I have no idea if any of them play in Vegas but Giles and Bolden look real close - especially Giles. He was doing reverse dunks during warm ups - also showed a nice long range jump shot. My guess is he is sitting out now more for team integration purposes than anything else.

Bolden didn't look quite 100% but also seems close. Tatum watched warm ups so no read there but that probably speaks to him being behind the others.

gam7
11-30-2016, 12:43 AM
That post above (Twitter peeps) just disappoints me in humanity. Yes, tonight Jones shot horribly from three... No doubt. but these people don't watch defense apparently. They just note O. Matt was instrumental on D and will be needed going forward if - please - we get all our players in ... Young players struggle w D

If those tweets are ones that disappoint you in humanity, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you have spent very little time on twitter.

Utley
11-30-2016, 12:50 AM
I really enjoyed the game. It was a relief to see Grayson generally looking healthy - although it seemed like his hamstring was bothering him some during the last 10 minutes. Hope just a minor tweak if anything.

Amile and Luke can't touch the ball enough. Every time they have it the other teams D seems to get disrupted. Luke almost seems like he is dribbling and taking a shot at the same time.

You could look a lot of different places for man of the match based on the various offensive and defensive contributions. My eye tells me it was Frank Jackson - he gave us the spark that allowed us to finally gain separation. Probably not th conventional pick-but the timing of what he did leans me his way.

jipops
11-30-2016, 12:58 AM
It just goes to show you that plenty of people only recognize the value of scoring, and don't recognize the defensive side of the ball other than blocked shots and steals.

The sad part is that Jones also had 4 steals, a charge taken, and another forced turnover on an inbounds play. Yet some people still only see the bad shooting night and limited offensive skill set.

Strange how some people just don't seem to get it by now. Throughout Matt's career you can count on him throwing out a stinker on offense once in a while. But you can also count on him to at the very least be very good on defense every game. Really I think his role is perfect for this team. We've got some guys that can score, especially if we ever get healthy.

I thought the difference tonight ended up being the quick scoring binge that Jackson went on early in the 2nd. That really provided the separation we needed, well... that and Matt's D at the other end. Frank had some ridiculous moves going to the basket. I so badly want that kid to stick around for another year after this. I think he has a shot at being something special.

UrinalCake
11-30-2016, 01:16 AM
Matt was great on defense, he was guarding a much bigger player in Bridges - necessary because we don't have a healthy true wing on the roster - and was able to prevent him from getting the ball in good positions to score. It was rough seeing Matt brick so many wide open threes and free throws, but you can't deny his value on defense.

Everyone else played their roles really well. We didn't play our best and still came away with a relatively comfortable win, which bodes well. In the pregame warmups Giles looked like he was getting ready to play (even though we knew he wouldn't) as did Bolden. Tatum sat out the layup lines again and only put up some light shots without jumping at all. It wouldn't shock me to see Giles and Bolden get into the game against Maine, but we'll see.

Olympic Fan
11-30-2016, 01:28 AM
A few numbers:

-- Duke now 16-2 in the Challenge
-- K now 10-1 vs. Izzo
-- Duke now with 129 straight non-conference wins in Cameron
-- K now 1,050 career wins

A few comments:

-- Matt Jones' game reminded me of Wojo's game against UNC in 1998 -- a game K called the greatest one-point performance in basketball history. Matt was horrendous shooting 3s, went 0-2 from the foul line and scored just two points, but overall played a GREAT game -- note he was the first player Izzo singled out for praise.

-- Luke Kennard was terrible from 3, but otherwise played a great game -- he was great inside the arch (20 points), he rebounded well and he got his hands of about a dozen balls at the defensive end.

-- K's comment about the 3-point shooting: "I wish Grayson and Luke would take more 3s. I think they passed up several shots tonight."

-- K said Grayson is not practicing -- not a minute ... he's gutting it out in games, but he has a serious toe injury. He did say that Jayson Tatum had a good workout today and "he's very close" to returning. He also said Giles is getting close and that Bolden is making progress. No idea when they return, but the paranoid few who think they won't be back are way off base.

dukelifer
11-30-2016, 06:45 AM
I realize that Michigan State is not a good team yet but they have some good players. They are certainly comparable to the bulk of the ACC which gives a sense of where Duke is at the moment. This Duke team is coming together. Jackson is really good and consistently gives a spark when needed. Just great competitiveness. Can't teach that. Kennard is as crafty a player that I have ever seen play at Duke. He knows where to be on the floor at all times and rebounds very well from his position. He shooting/scoring inside the arc is great and perhaps should focus on that. He is a weapon. He has a lot of Jim Spanarkel in him. We all know Jones can have very good games shooting but he was worn out playing D which he did at a high level yesterday. Amile is a rock. He needs to hit his throws but that is all you can say about his play. Jeter is getting better and better. He more than anyone has benefitted from the three frosh not playing. He is gaining confidence with every solid performance. Grayson is the heart of the team. He eventually broke the game open. He just imposes his will on a game and eventually the other team can't match it. The intensity he brings is intimidating. Yesterday he was hobbled and still managed to dominate in a key stretch.

I am enjoying this team. I see a lot of chemistry. They know who they are and play well in critical moments of a game. The D is not great yet but it has its moments. This group of 6 players probably can't win it all but they will leave a mark when you play them. I would like to see Grayson get a game off. He could use the week to heal. But I doubt that they can keep him on the bench. Bringing the other guys in will be interesting. Some chemistry will be affected- particularly when Tatum returns. But that is why K gets the big bucks.

davekay1971
11-30-2016, 07:06 AM
Strong performance by Duke. I'm thrilled for the guys who are on the court. Amile is having a phenomenal season, and he has put in the time and effort and (literal) pain to earn it. So happy for this young man! Allen continues to be a warrior. Kennard continues to show tremendous strides. Jones is just solid. Some of the guys not expected to see much playing time have been fantastic early season contributors. I'm as impatient as anyone to see the team with those talented freshmen on the court, to see how good we can be. But it's been enjoyable to see the guys who are able to play come together and develop so well. And it will give us wonderful depth when those freshmen are able to play.

wavedukefan70s
11-30-2016, 07:09 AM
Considering we went 6 deep. im guessing tired legs for our ft and three point shot percentages.we arent bad .we will be very good in a month or so.matt jones is our dirt guy.he may not light up a stat sheet.but he is as valuble as any other we have.Matt(you want me on that wall -- you need me on that wall)jones.

Spanarkel
11-30-2016, 07:26 AM
Kennard is as crafty a player that I have ever seen play at Duke. He knows where to be on the floor at all times and rebounds very well from his position. He shooting/scoring inside the arc is great and perhaps should focus on that. He is a weapon. He has a lot of Jim Spanarkel in him.


Apt descriptions. I know tons of work has gone into his game, but he plays like the hoops version of "The Natural" and "Pinball Wizard"("got such a supple wrist").

Saratoga2
11-30-2016, 07:38 AM
We are seeing what happens when we can put 4 quality veterans on the floor together. Very hard to beat.

Having Allen out there at less than 100 % and with no practice showed in the first half, but he got loose and began hitting in the second. Amile is very capable of scoring inside and our guards know how to find him. Luke is a very good player. The 3's will fall for him later. Matt did his usual thing but his 3 point shot was off. still there was enough to beat a young and athletic team who was frustrated by a veteran team.

Frank is a wonderful player to watch and as he gains experience will only get better on both sides of the ball. Chase is now playing with more confidence. Against a face paced team, he was a better choice than Vrank.

Good game for a good team which will soon get deeper and probably better. On to Maine.

Indoor66
11-30-2016, 08:01 AM
If those tweets are ones that disappoint you in humanity, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you have spent very little time on twitter.

Why go anywhere near a place where the main activity is sniffing brain f.arts? No need to have the frustration.

UrinalCake
11-30-2016, 08:15 AM
Also wanted to point out that Cameron was in fine form last night. Many undergrads tented for the night before, and there was an energy in the building that you could feel well before tipoff. The grad student section was overflowed and they were able to put a few of them on the non-TV side, which gave me a nostalgic feel for when the students used to occupy both sides of the lower section. Great energy from the crowd to help our team pick up a big win.

BD80
11-30-2016, 08:24 AM
1. MSU threw some hellacious free throw D at us. Izzo can coach.

2. Jones will look a lot better on offense when Bolden and Giles get back. Those outside shots had to be unrequited alley-oop passes.

YmoBeThere
11-30-2016, 08:25 AM
He did say that Jayson Tatum had a good workout today and "he's very close" to returning. He also said Giles is getting close and that Bolden is making progress. No idea when they return, but the paranoid few who think they won't be back are way off base.

Back in my mind implies we have seen them. I think that is the frustration from a fan standpoint. You never know until you can see them out on the court in game action. And that is certainly something in all 3 cases we haven't seen yet.


The grad student section was overflowed...

Hopefully the men's restrooms were properly stocked.

wilson
11-30-2016, 08:37 AM
...The grad student section was overflowed...


...Hopefully the men's restrooms were properly stocked.6911

FadedTackyShirt
11-30-2016, 08:49 AM
I realize that Michigan State is not a good team yet but they have some good players. They are certainly comparable to the bulk of the ACC which gives a sense of where Duke is at the moment. This Duke team is coming together. Jackson is really good and consistently gives a spark when needed. Just great competitiveness. Can't teach that. Kennard is as crafty a player that I have ever seen play at Duke. He knows where to be on the floor at all times and rebounds very well from his position. He shooting/scoring inside the arc is great and perhaps should focus on that. He is a weapon. He has a lot of Jim Spanarkel in him. We all know Jones can have very good games shooting but he was worn out playing D which he did at a high level yesterday. Amile is a rock. He needs to hit his throws but that is all you can say about his play. Jeter is getting better and better. He more than anyone has benefitted from the three frosh not playing. He is gaining confidence with every solid performance. Grayson is the heart of the team. He eventually broke the game open. He just imposes his will on a game and eventually the other team can't match it. The intensity he brings is intimidating. Yesterday he was hobbled and still managed to dominate in a key stretch.

I am enjoying this team. I see a lot of chemistry. They know who they are and play well in critical moments of a game. The D is not great yet but it has its moments. This group of 6 players probably can't win it all but they will leave a mark when you play them. I would like to see Grayson get a game off. He could use the week to heal. But I doubt that they can keep him on the bench. Bringing the other guys in will be interesting. Some chemistry will be affected- particularly when Tatum returns. But that is why K gets the big bucks.

MSU's down a bit right now, but still a gutty win by a short handed team. Six man rotation is brutal, but still found a way to win.

K's a master at putting a team together, but will still be difficult to integrate three talented frosh into the rotation on the fly. Hopefully sooner rather than later. 2011 was rough, but three players is infinitely more complex.

DukieInBrasil
11-30-2016, 08:54 AM
That was a really satisfying 2nd half, after a 1st half that left me wondering what was up with our team. If Duke could've played the whole game like the 2nd half i think we would have very different impressions of this game. There were several very strange plays in the 1st half that indicated Duke was just slightly off.
1) Matt Jones came up with a great steal and was being guarded on a fast break and just completely lost the handle on the ball for a turnover which led to a fast break the other way for a layup or dunk.
2) Amile makes a great move to the basket and didn't go for the dunk but went to the side to avoid a defender and blew the layup. Amile's got great crafty moves around the rim, but he needed to try to dunk that ball.
3) Grayson caught the ball near the top of the key, well beyond the 3pt line totally alone, wide open, and passed on a shot that he has taken and made with regularity, and decided to drive, which ended up really ugly either with a turnover or a badly missed shot.

There were some other plays that Grayson made where he made a move b/c he expected a call and didn't get it. That's getting old to me. Perhaps the refs are holding Grayson to a different standard (highly unprofessional if so), but he has to figure that out and play to make plays, not get calls.
This is one game where i don't think Duke would have gotten much if any benefit from going deeper into the bench. Jack White is not ready for that type of game. I don't suspect that either Vrank the Tank or Javin the Javelin would have given Duke anything better than what Chase gave.

jgehtland
11-30-2016, 08:55 AM
And that is certainly something in all 3 cases we haven't seen yet.


Not exactly true. I was lucky enough to be in Cameron to watch Bolden play. It was an exhibition, sure, but he suited up and played with the team. Nitpicking, I know.

SkyBrickey
11-30-2016, 09:23 AM
If we were simply very bad and not absolutely terrible from the free throw line and 3-point line, we would have had a comfortable 15-18 point win. I doubt we shoot that poorly on open looks the entire rest of the season. And I can't ever remember a Duke player air balling 2 3-pointers in a game, but what a defensive job on Bridges!

Gutty, satisfying second half. Great win in my book.

Billy Dat
11-30-2016, 09:38 AM
I really enjoyed the game. It was a relief to see Grayson generally looking healthy - although it seemed like his hamstring was bothering him some during the last 10 minutes. Hope just a minor tweak if anything.

I think Grayson's recent performances have been beyond amazing because I don't think he generally looks healthy. I can see his mind churning to figure out how he can best compensate for the fact that his toe is killing him. On the offensive end, he is being extremely smart about where he moves and when he shoots. Bilas pointed out that MSU kept going under screens, a move which I can't argue based on our 3pt % last night, but Grayson made them pay at several critical junctures. We've talked about the concept of "gravity" and how a great offensive player forces the defense to pay attention to them. Just by staying highly relevant despite being in pain, Grayson helps our offense remain the #1 in efficiency. I am highly impressed with his grit.


our performance in the first half was amazing - ly bad.

Yes, between bad offense and pourous defense, we were lucky to be tied. I felt it was a classic case of our frustration on offense leading to bad defense. As much as I love Luke, I don't like his tendency to point fingers after defensive breakdowns. He does a lot of that "what the heck?" arms-out, eye-roll look at his teammates...of course, I don't go back and look to see if he is right or wrong, but it doesn't align with K's "good face" dictum.


I realize that Michigan State is not a good team yet but they have some good players.

I agree that they seem like a more fun offense than the usual Izzo group, and I am impressed that 4 freshmen played that well in CIS. However, I was extremely agitated by veteran Lourawls Tum Tum Nairn, at the very early stages of the game, getting his full squad's attention and executing an insulting Duke defensive floor slap. That is a bush league antic and makes me want someone on the squad to body block him over press row.

I thought the refs were pretty bad both ways. One of the biggest calls of the game was the basket interference they called on MSU during our run to break open the game. They never showed a replay but that ball was well outside the cylinder and would have been a big momentum buster that kept the game at 3. It was the play where Izzo was smiling and saying, "You sure? You sure?" Granted, they also missed a blatant goal tend of an and-one a few possessions later, but the timing of that call against MSU really aided us.


I thought the difference tonight ended up being the quick scoring binge that Jackson went on early in the 2nd. That really provided the separation we needed, well... that and Matt's D at the other end. Frank had some ridiculous moves going to the basket.

In the presser, K talked about calling his number a few times in a row. Bottom line, when he's on the court with Grayson and Luke, and the other team is in man, he's going to have an advantage over his defender and it seems like he can get by anyone he wants. I hope we keep calling those clear outs.


I am enjoying this team. I see a lot of chemistry. They know who they are and play well in critical moments of a game. The D is not great yet but it has its moments. This group of 6 players probably can't win it all but they will leave a mark when you play them.

We are seeing what happens when we can put 4 quality veterans on the floor together. Very hard to beat.

THIS. I am starting to view the freshman injuries as some kind of basketball gods message for us, and the country, to appreciate the qualities that only a veteran team can demonstrate. Granted, my eyesight isn't good, but there are times I mistake Matt and Amile and Grayson and Luke (it's harder to mistake players of different races), but my point is the quality of the fist and that this core exemplifies it. Naturally, when they are playing poorly like in the first half, I am apt to yell at the TV that I don't feel like watching last year's team, but then they magically win me back.

K owning Izzo is a very fun HoF Coaching subplot that I am glad continued. On to Maine!

Ichabod Drain
11-30-2016, 09:49 AM
If we were simply very bad and not absolutely terrible from the free throw line and 3-point line, we would have had a comfortable 15-18 point win. I doubt we shoot that poorly on open looks the entire rest of the season. And I can't ever remember a Duke player air balling 2 3-pointers in a game, but what a defensive job on Bridges!

Gutty, satisfying second half. Great win in my book.

I could be wrong but I feel like Frank Jackson has already done it this year.

OldPhiKap
11-30-2016, 09:57 AM
As an aside, "SkyBrickey" goes right to my list of favorite DBR names. Great handle.

Rich
11-30-2016, 10:08 AM
As an aside, "SkyBrickey" goes right to my list of favorite DBR names. Great handle.

Although we all know the "original" Duke "Sky" was Billy "Sky" King. It said so right on his license plate in the '80's.

OldPhiKap
11-30-2016, 10:09 AM
Although we all know the "original" Duke "Sky" was Billy "Sky" King. It said so right on his license plate in the '80's.

Yup. And he sure knew about Macon Bacon.

Troublemaker
11-30-2016, 10:33 AM
I agree that they seem like a more fun offense than the usual Izzo group, and I am impressed that 4 freshmen played that well in CIS.

Yeah, most of their rotation will still be around in 2 years (not Bridges, though), when they should be a 1-seed quality team and Izzo's next great chance to capture championship #2. It'll be neat for MSU fans to watch that 3-year process unfold. I really liked what Nick Ward did in the post.



K owning Izzo is a very fun HoF Coaching subplot that I am glad continued. On to Maine!

Tobacco Road hasn't treated Izzo kindly. He is also 1-7 vs Roy Williams, including oh-fer against UNC.

Dukehky
11-30-2016, 10:48 AM
Game was interesting to watch proud of the team.

I am not a huge fan of watching Grayson go 1 on 1 and always have. He just seems so out of control on his drives, and he's just never going to get any calls, so I'm not sure why he continues to do it. This is compounded when he is obviously hobbled. It's just hard to make out what exactly the deal with him is based on his injuries and the way the team was practicing to play, which is not heavy Grayson Allen iso.

Part of the reason why I don't like watching Grayson dance with the ball is because he's such a good shooter, and because Frank Jackson is soooooooooo much better at it. He blows by instead of bulling past defenders which makes it more difficult to stop and forcers more abrupt help defense.

I thought Frank was our best player last night. He got jobbed on a couple of calls, but he is our best perimeter defender. Matt may be the "smartest" but Frank is the best.

Also, big props to Chase last night. I think the match-up was really bad for Vrank which is why he saw no minutes.

ChillinDuke
11-30-2016, 10:57 AM
Game was interesting to watch proud of the team.

I am not a huge fan of watching Grayson go 1 on 1 and always have. He just seems so out of control on his drives, and he's just never going to get any calls, so I'm not sure why he continues to do it. This is compounded when he is obviously hobbled. It's just hard to make out what exactly the deal with him is based on his injuries and the way the team was practicing to play, which is not heavy Grayson Allen iso.

Part of the reason why I don't like watching Grayson dance with the ball is because he's such a good shooter, and because Frank Jackson is soooooooooo much better at it. He blows by instead of bulling past defenders which makes it more difficult to stop and forcers more abrupt help defense.

I thought Frank was our best player last night. He got jobbed on a couple of calls, but he is our best perimeter defender. Matt may be the "smartest" but Frank is the best.

Also, big props to Chase last night. I think the match-up was really bad for Vrank which is why he saw no minutes.

I strongly disagree. In light of his injuries (which, one could argue, were brought about by his bulldog, indiscriminate driving nature), Grayson has achieved "total consciousness" (name that movie). Said differently, and more seriously, Grayson's play in recent games has exhibited a level of IQ that is so superior to others on the court that he has completely changed games. His drives have created dump-offs, his bullet passes have found wide open players, his help defense has zoomed from off-screen to try to strip balls in the post. Compared to most other players on the court, he is vastly superior at predicting what others are going to do and making plays based on this. This is the Grayson I, and many others, had envisioned this season when people claimed he would assume a "different role" that perhaps meant less scoring. Unfortunately, IMO, it took him a nasty fall against KU (presuming that's what created the toe injury) to unleash this innate ability.

As such, I disagree that Frank is our "best player." I disagree strongly. Frank has a very bright future, and in many ways I think he could also achieve this level of "total consciousness" after some seasoning. But he's definitely not better than Grayson. More dynamic? More jaw-dropping? Quicker? Faster twitch? Perhaps. But not better. Not yet. (Especially when you consider the three-point shooting.)

- Chillin

UrinalCake
11-30-2016, 10:59 AM
This is one game where i don't think Duke would have gotten much if any benefit from going deeper into the bench. Jack White is not ready for that type of game. I don't suspect that either Vrank the Tank or Javin the Javelin would have given Duke anything better than what Chase gave.

Totally agree. Things got a bit dicey when Frank picked up his fourth with around ten minutes to go. We slowed the pace down and stole some time and were able to hang on. When we play a four guard lineup and only have four healthy guards on the roster then guys are pretty much going to have to play 35+ minutes, but bringing in Jack White would have been a big dropoff that could have quickly led to an MSU run.

The 11-0 run early in the second half which was sparked by Jackson was basically the difference in the game. Other than that the two teams played about even.

flyingdutchdevil
11-30-2016, 11:04 AM
1) Nice win by a team that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn on 3pt shots. Really smart play down the road, and I love that "patented Duke run" in the second half that MSU just couldn't close. A fun game to watch, although frustrating at times.

2) I love games where Duke shoots like crap and still wins. Shows that he can win in many different ways.

3) Matt Jones was Matt Jones on defense. He did everything! And he had plenty of teams and really annoyed the MSU offense. Matt Jones was anti-Matt Jones on offense: missing 0-6 on 3s, shooting 0-2 on FTs, and hitting a layup in traffic. These are all anti-Matt stats.

4) I loved Grayson's mentality on offense. Yes, he didn't shoot well in the first half, but he kept on shooting. He mitigated the push that MSU was making. Also, he is such a good passer. Really surprised to only see 4 assists. I thought he had a lot more.

5) I really like Miles Bridges. His athleticism is off the charts. He made a ton of freshman mistakes, which helped Duke out. But his talent is undeniable. I don't see how he is not a top 10 pick next year.

6) Kennard is an appalling 3-20 from 3pt land for the last 3 games. While his scoring on all levels has improved from last year, he is still a very inconsistent 3pt shooter. And that's okay. He'll learn and get more consistent on that shot.

Edouble
11-30-2016, 11:09 AM
I strongly disagree. In light of his injuries (which, one could argue, were brought about by his bulldog, indiscriminate driving nature), Grayson has achieved "total consciousness" (name that movie). Said differently, and more seriously, Grayson's play in recent games has exhibited a level of IQ that is so superior to others on the court that he has completely changed games. His drives have created dump-offs, his bullet passes have found wide open players, his help defense has zoomed from off-screen to try to strip balls in the post. Compared to most other players on the court, he is vastly superior at predicting what others are going to do and making plays based on this. This is the Grayson I, and many others, had envisioned this season when people claimed he would assume a "different role" that perhaps meant less scoring. Unfortunately, IMO, it took him a nasty fall against KU (presuming that's what created the toe injury) to unleash this innate ability.

As such, I disagree that Frank is our "best player." I disagree strongly. Frank has a very bright future, and in many ways I think he could also achieve this level of "total consciousness" after some seasoning. But he's definitely not better than Grayson. More dynamic? More jaw-dropping? Quicker? Faster twitch? Perhaps. But not better. Not yet. (Especially when you consider the three-point shooting.)

- Chillin

Doubt it's innate. Probably due to lots of coaching, lots of practice, lots of watching tape, as well as getting used to playing with this particular group of guys.

Dukehky
11-30-2016, 11:32 AM
I strongly disagree. In light of his injuries (which, one could argue, were brought about by his bulldog, indiscriminate driving nature), Grayson has achieved "total consciousness" (name that movie). Said differently, and more seriously, Grayson's play in recent games has exhibited a level of IQ that is so superior to others on the court that he has completely changed games. His drives have created dump-offs, his bullet passes have found wide open players, his help defense has zoomed from off-screen to try to strip balls in the post. Compared to most other players on the court, he is vastly superior at predicting what others are going to do and making plays based on this. This is the Grayson I, and many others, had envisioned this season when people claimed he would assume a "different role" that perhaps meant less scoring. Unfortunately, IMO, it took him a nasty fall against KU (presuming that's what created the toe injury) to unleash this innate ability.

As such, I disagree that Frank is our "best player." I disagree strongly. Frank has a very bright future, and in many ways I think he could also achieve this level of "total consciousness" after some seasoning. But he's definitely not better than Grayson. More dynamic? More jaw-dropping? Quicker? Faster twitch? Perhaps. But not better. Not yet. (Especially when you consider the three-point shooting.)

- Chillin



Caddyshack.

I said I thought Frank was our best player last night. Of course that means when he was on the floor, which wasn't as often as I would have liked due to foul trouble.

Grayson is not healthy, so it's hard for me to tell the level at which he is actually playing. Despite his big point total and better 3 point shooting last night, he continues to force the issue on drives when they're not there, and he still just hunts the foul instead of actually trying to finish.

I think most of this is due to injury and being unable to physically get close enough to the basket to make a good attempt at a bucket. I hope he gets healthy so that we can see.

ChillinDuke
11-30-2016, 12:00 PM
Caddyshack.

I said I thought Frank was our best player last night. Of course that means when he was on the floor, which wasn't as often as I would have liked due to foul trouble.

Grayson is not healthy, so it's hard for me to tell the level at which he is actually playing. Despite his big point total and better 3 point shooting last night, he continues to force the issue on drives when they're not there, and he still just hunts the foul instead of actually trying to finish.

I think most of this is due to injury and being unable to physically get close enough to the basket to make a good attempt at a bucket. I hope he gets healthy so that we can see.

Does he though? Luke is 3-20 from deep the last few games, yet no one around here is saying he should stop shooting threes. So in that vein, why do a few non-ideal drives condemn Grayson's driving? He made a terrific dump-off to Amile late yesterday on a nice drive that got a defender to commit. He also made at least one drive and kicked out a bullet for a wide open three (that was subsequently air-balled, I believe, by either Frank or Matt). To me, those outweigh (or at least counterbalance) a couple attempts that didn't bring about such excellent looks and/or score himself (or get fouled - either of which he did at least a couple times last night).

It's the same as the old baseball analogy: make an out 7 out of 10 times and you're an all-star. The math is different in basketball, but the point stands. Grayson has been, IMO, terrific the last few games. And he's changing the game for us - in a variety of ways. E.g. the one or two threes he hit yesterday when he recognized - quickly, I might add - that MSU was going under the screen. Yeah, he shot some heat checks too that weren't ideal. But he also helped distance us in that second half with those threes. The entirety of his game (good and bad) is an excellent package, and that includes some poor drives.

- Chillin

dukelifer
11-30-2016, 12:18 PM
1) Nice win by a team that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn on 3pt shots. Really smart play down the road, and I love that "patented Duke run" in the second half that MSU just couldn't close. A fun game to watch, although frustrating at times.

2) I love games where Duke shoots like crap and still wins. Shows that he can win in many different ways.

3) Matt Jones was Matt Jones on defense. He did everything! And he had plenty of teams and really annoyed the MSU offense. Matt Jones was anti-Matt Jones on offense: missing 0-6 on 3s, shooting 0-2 on FTs, and hitting a layup in traffic. These are all anti-Matt stats.

4) I loved Grayson's mentality on offense. Yes, he didn't shoot well in the first half, but he kept on shooting. He mitigated the push that MSU was making. Also, he is such a good passer. Really surprised to only see 4 assists. I thought he had a lot more.

5) I really like Miles Bridges. His athleticism is off the charts. He made a ton of freshman mistakes, which helped Duke out. But his talent is undeniable. I don't see how he is not a top 10 pick next year.

6) Kennard is an appalling 3-20 from 3pt land for the last 3 games. While his scoring on all levels has improved from last year, he is still a very inconsistent 3pt shooter. And that's okay. He'll learn and get more consistent on that shot.

Kennard is a funny shooter. He is like a jazz musician. He loves to improvise, play fast, and dazzle with new rifs. His technical abilities- what makes JJ, Klay Thmpson and Ray Allen so great - is just fair. Seth Curry may be the best in the world at doing both. Grayson has a little of both as well but is less crafty than Kennard- and uses his aggressiveness and strength more. If Kennard becomes Curry, Duke will be very good but he is just a growing sophomore. All I know is that in money time he usually performs- and that is what matters most. Duke has three capable go-to guys in Jackson, Kennard and Allen and probably 4 when Tatum comes back. That is amazing.

sagegrouse
11-30-2016, 12:20 PM
Does he though? Luke is 3-20 from deep the last few games, yet no one around here is saying he should stop shooting threes. So in that vein, why do a few non-ideal drives condemn Grayson's driving? He made a terrific dump-off to Amile late yesterday on a nice drive that got a defender to commit. He also made at least one drive and kicked out a bullet for a wide open three (that was subsequently air-balled, I believe, by either Frank or Matt). To me, those outweigh (or at least counterbalance) a couple attempts that didn't bring about such excellent looks and/or score himself (or get fouled - either of which he did at least a couple times last night).

It's the same as the old baseball analogy: make an out 7 out of 10 times and you're an all-star. The math is different in basketball, but the point stands. Grayson has been, IMO, terrific the last few games. And he's changing the game for us - in a variety of ways. E.g. the one or two threes he hit yesterday when he recognized - quickly, I might add - that MSU was going under the screen. Yeah, he shot some heat checks too that weren't ideal. But he also helped distance us in that second half with those threes. The entirety of his game (good and bad) is an excellent package, and that includes some poor drives.

- Chillin

Grayson's effectiveness from outside is BECAUSE he is a threat to drive to the rim at any time. And, counter to some other posts, I think he is tremendously effective driving to the basket. Maybe I am giving too much weight to the NC game against Wisconsin, but I don't think so. And, if he has missed a few more than usual this, year, it's because of his injuries.

kAzE
11-30-2016, 12:29 PM
I agree with the folks who are defending Matt. He never fills up the box score, but he often makes huge game changing plays. There was a period of about 4 minutes last night where he absolutely dominated the game. He got a steal and an assist on a fast break, and then a couple of plays later, forced a turnover on an inbounds play, and then the very next MSU possession, he took a charge. He was the difference when we pulled away in the 2nd half.

I actually voted Matt as the MOTM in the App. St. game. Not only did he make 3 or 4 HUGE defensive plays that helped put that game away early, he also was very vocal during garbage time in leading the young guys on the court who were playing pretty out of control. First time in awhile that I voted in the extreme minority for MOTM, but I legitimately thought the was the best player on the floor in that game (since Grayson, who probably was on his way to scoring too many points to give up the MOTM, had to leave with an injury)

Thoughts on the other guys:

Luke: Yes, his 3 ball hasn't been falling, but is anyone really worried? He still got 20 points on 7 of 11 shooting from inside the 3 point line, despite going just 3 for 5 from the charity stripe. He's much more than a one-dimensional scorer, and has easily the best mid range game of anyone on the team right now (although I'm withholding final judgement on that until we see Jayson). I think his volume will go down more than Grayson's when Jayson is back healthy, but I remain confident that his streaky shot will return, and that he will continue to be extremely efficient.

Frank: Wow is he quick, or what? It's great that we have 3 totally different looks at guard to throw at defenses: Grayson, the physical bulldozer type, Luke, with his crafty drives and mid range pull up game, and Frank with his unbelievable first step and ability to get to the rim almost at will. Frank is clearly at the bottom of that pecking order, but he stands to improve the most of any of our guards. If he develops some passing vision to go along with his great penetrating ability, he really could be a nice point guard for this team. He's just a hard guy to stay in front of.

Billy Dat
11-30-2016, 12:29 PM
Kennard is a funny shooter. He is like a jazz musician. He loves to improvise, play fast, and dazzle with new rifs. His technical abilities- what makes JJ, Klay Thmpson and Ray Allen so great - is just fair. Seth Curry may be the best in the world at doing both. Grayson has a little of both as well but is less crafty than Kennard- and uses his aggressiveness and strength more. If Kennard becomes Curry, Duke will be very good but he is just a growing sophomore. All I know is that in money time he usually performs- and that is what matters most. Duke has three capable go-to guys in Jackson, Kennard and Allen and probably 4 when Tatum comes back. That is amazing.

Fantastic analogy.

For those with a desire for more Seth Curry talk and updates on his experiences in the NBA, check out this great interview. I hate to hype Woj, who always disses K, but he has launched JJ's media career and is nice to Duke alums:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/vertical-pod-with-woj--seth-curry-162519426.html

DukieInBrasil
11-30-2016, 12:32 PM
I strongly disagree. In light of his injuries (which, one could argue, were brought about by his bulldog, indiscriminate driving nature), Grayson has achieved "total consciousness" (name that movie). Said differently, and more seriously, Grayson's play in recent games has exhibited a level of IQ that is so superior to others on the court that he has completely changed games. His drives have created dump-offs, his bullet passes have found wide open players, his help defense has zoomed from off-screen to try to strip balls in the post. Compared to most other players on the court, he is vastly superior at predicting what others are going to do and making plays based on this. This is the Grayson I, and many others, had envisioned this season when people claimed he would assume a "different role" that perhaps meant less scoring. Unfortunately, IMO, it took him a nasty fall against KU (presuming that's what created the toe injury) to unleash this innate ability.

As such, I disagree that Frank is our "best player." I disagree strongly. Frank has a very bright future, and in many ways I think he could also achieve this level of "total consciousness" after some seasoning. But he's definitely not better than Grayson. More dynamic? More jaw-dropping? Quicker? Faster twitch? Perhaps. But not better. Not yet. (Especially when you consider the three-point shooting.)

- Chillin

I strongly disagree with most of what you said but in particular the bold part. Grayson's inability to not try to get a foul called rather than make an actual play surfaced at least 3 times in the first half, when he shot 2-10 FGs. That is seriously not "superior". When he stops trying to draw fouls just for the foul and/or bull his way to the rim, he does start doing pretty good things, like looking for his 3pt shot and making nice passes. I recall at least 2 times last night when Grayson tried to provide the weak side steal that you mentioned, and rather than be in a position to draw a charge or otherwise affect the play, he completely whiffed, although he did come up with 2 steals in the game.
Wrt Frank, i'm not sure which players you've been watching, but A) Frank has a hight 3FG% on the year than Grayson (although G is rapidly closing the gap) and B) last night Frank was under control and made very few mistakes, especially when compared to Grayson; Frank shot 5-6 FG and Grayson shot 7-21, and Frank had 1 t.o. while Grayson had 4. I'm not sure how a shooting differential of 2-15 can be considered superior. I'm not trying to say that Frank is our best player, but Grayson's play to date does not evoke any sort of superiority on his part, even when compared to players on his own team.

kAzE
11-30-2016, 12:40 PM
I also think Luke's shot will get much better once he's playing closer to 30 minutes a game instead of 40. Running around playing Duke M2M defense for 40 minutes doesn't exactly leave you with a lot of lift on your legs. I'm very comfortable in predicting that he will end up on the year closer to 40% than 35% from 3. (He's at 35.6% right now)

The same logic also applies to Matt. Those 2 guys (really all the starters, but particularly those 2) are just playing way too many minutes right now. They are both averaging 35.6 minutes a game. Yikes.

flyingdutchdevil
11-30-2016, 12:54 PM
...that we start a grad student, a senior, a junior, a sophomore, and a freshman. Now that's diversity!

Lar77
11-30-2016, 12:54 PM
Anybody remember Bruce Bowen? Single digit scoring average, low rebounds and other stats, and a retired number in San Antonio after 3 championships.

Matt is our version of Bruce Bowen, as demonstrated last night. NDPOY?

MSU has talent, but little discipline (yet). Izzo will get that changed.

Refs were not good (affecting both teams, so it probably evened out). But how can you not call goaltending when a guy slaps the ball after it hits the backboard and was above the rim? Isn't that in Ref 101?

Our guys played with heart. Number 129 was definitely on someone's mind.

Our three vet guards played 117 minutes out of 120, even though one was clearly hurting.

Lots of defensive lapses in the first half, but corrected at halftime. Is the locker room being repainted today, because there might have been some paint peeling.

Giles is moving great, including an effortless windmill dunk during warm ups. Same with Bolden. Even if Tatum takes longer to come on board, those two will immensely help our depth issues.

Chase is a contributor.

Can you say anything more about Amile? Other than you should have dunked on that one play. Even his FT shooting doesn't seem "adventurous" anymore.

Luke has great court sense and his mid range game is just beautiful.

Frank is a terrific freshman. Makes mistakes on occasion but he likes to defend and has a sweet shot.

Don't understand why DeLaurier didn't come in to give some relief to our iron men.

All around great team win.

Olympic Fan
11-30-2016, 01:03 PM
Giles is moving great, including an effortless windmill dunk during warm ups. Same with Bolden. Even if Tatum takes longer to come on board, those two will immensely help our depth issues.


Actually, K made it sound last night after the game like Tatum is the closest to returning -- and he's very close. It also sounded like Giles will be next to play ...

weezie
11-30-2016, 01:05 PM
Well, I'll tell ya what, if we had had that team playing against the jayhawk two weeks ago like they did last night, we would have stomped ks.
Due to some knee surgery that I'm recuperating from, our seats were moved to the third row floor under the Duke basket. What I saw last night was remarkable.

Once again, K played the team like a violin. The looks on the faces of the Duke players were a revelation. Kennard is an arch tormenter, silent but ready with the expression or gesture that drives opponents nuts. Grayson was Mr. Charm, Amile is eyes in motion all the time, Uncle Matt is the cuddly teddy bear who simply demolished Bridges (what a big baby Bridges turned out to be) through his lock-down defense 2nd half. Jeter was looking much, much more solid and trustworthy. No clumsy mistakes...we're going to love watching him mature. But, ladies and gentlemen, Frank Jackson found that next gear. He saw the light...reminded me of Grayson in 2015 when he flipped the switch. Just bust it to the hoop, yo'.
The missed foul shots were due to fatigue. Whatever the NCAA rules committee has concocted, there's no lack of banging, grabbing, scratching, dragging or holding out there. I think K must train his players to breath differently when they are hitting a wall, there's got to be some yoga in their regimen. Anyone questioning lack of effort or heart from this team is sorely mistaken.
I would not be surprised to see Tatum in the Maine game. A nice re-entry into the lineup.

Otoh, sitting that close made me nauseous at the close proximity to Roger Ayers. He spends a lot of time getting that brush backed hair just perfect.

Lar77
11-30-2016, 01:06 PM
I strongly disagree with most of what you said but in particular the bold part. Grayson's inability to not try to get a foul called rather than make an actual play surfaced at least 3 times in the first half, when he shot 2-10 FGs. That is seriously not "superior". When he stops trying to draw fouls just for the foul and/or bull his way to the rim, he does start doing pretty good things, like looking for his 3pt shot and making nice passes. I recall at least 2 times last night when Grayson tried to provide the weak side steal that you mentioned, and rather than be in a position to draw a charge or otherwise affect the play, he completely whiffed, although he did come up with 2 steals in the game.
Wrt Frank, i'm not sure which players you've been watching, but A) Frank has a hight 3FG% on the year than Grayson (although G is rapidly closing the gap) and B) last night Frank was under control and made very few mistakes, especially when compared to Grayson; Frank shot 5-6 FG and Grayson shot 7-21, and Frank had 1 t.o. while Grayson had 4. I'm not sure how a shooting differential of 2-15 can be considered superior. I'm not trying to say that Frank is our best player, but Grayson's play to date does not evoke any sort of superiority on his part, even when compared to players on his own team.

Not trying to start an argument and you make some good points, but I disagree with your assessment.

Yes, Grayson tries to draw fouls by bulling through, as he always has. The refs weren't going for it last night; in fact, the refs seemed to be leaning in the other direction. His overall play has improved from last year, even though his shooting/scoring has not been as good. Injury and limited practice time might have something to do with that.

Frank is very good, but I would rather see the ball in Grayson's hands.

El_Diablo
11-30-2016, 01:15 PM
If those tweets are ones that disappoint you in humanity, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you have spent very little time on twitter.

...and that you did not see the Duke student's sign making fun of the water in Flint.

uh_no
11-30-2016, 01:16 PM
6) Kennard is an appalling 3-20 from 3pt land for the last 3 games. While his scoring on all levels has improved from last year, he is still a very inconsistent 3pt shooter. And that's okay. He'll learn and get more consistent on that shot.

He's taking terrible looks. off the dribble and step back seem to be most of the shots (anecdotal....possibly biased observation?), and they're usually not good shots. He seems to be money on kick outs...but we didn't get a good job getting those sort of looks last night, or recently in general....which I think partially is the reason for overall poor three point shooting last night. I remember distinctly one occasion where grayson was wide open...not a guy within 15' at the top of the key....amile didn't even see him.

It doesn't seem like we're looking for that inside-outside play that gets you those shots....and it's not just amile, but any time one of our guards got inside (which they were able to do at ease), we weren't able to get someone else open on the perimeter. This meant the guard would get there, and often get "stuck" if you will.

ChillinDuke
11-30-2016, 01:26 PM
I strongly disagree with most of what you said but in particular the bold part. Grayson's inability to not try to get a foul called rather than make an actual play surfaced at least 3 times in the first half, when he shot 2-10 FGs. That is seriously not "superior". When he stops trying to draw fouls just for the foul and/or bull his way to the rim, he does start doing pretty good things, like looking for his 3pt shot and making nice passes. I recall at least 2 times last night when Grayson tried to provide the weak side steal that you mentioned, and rather than be in a position to draw a charge or otherwise affect the play, he completely whiffed, although he did come up with 2 steals in the game.
Wrt Frank, i'm not sure which players you've been watching, but A) Frank has a hight 3FG% on the year than Grayson (although G is rapidly closing the gap) and B) last night Frank was under control and made very few mistakes, especially when compared to Grayson; Frank shot 5-6 FG and Grayson shot 7-21, and Frank had 1 t.o. while Grayson had 4. I'm not sure how a shooting differential of 2-15 can be considered superior. I'm not trying to say that Frank is our best player, but Grayson's play to date does not evoke any sort of superiority on his part, even when compared to players on his own team.

Fine to disagree and you raise valid points. But here's some added commentary on my view.

Part of basketball at the highest level is being able to adjust to situations throughout a game. IMO this is one of the, if not the single, most important factors into what makes JV different from Varsity, Varsity different from College, College from the NBA, NBA benchwarmers to starters, etc. To better explain the point, any 6'8" HS player with a great shot can get said shot off without much of a problem in the vast majority of HS games. Enter college, and suddenly that shot is much more challenging. You have to be able to adjust. For some players (e.g. Chase Jeter) it takes a season or seasons to adjust to this. Move up the chain to starters in college or NBA players, and the learning curve becomes squeezed - meaning there's less runway. You don't get a season, you don't get a couple games. You don't get a half. You don't get 5 minutes. You have to adjust immediately at the highest levels. Players that can adjust - e.g. Kyrie on a drive - to moving sequences with variables flying left and right - produce some of the most incredible plays, performances, and careers that we tend to remember.

Take a step back to Grayson (who is no Kyrie, yet) and you can see the parallel to understanding the game contexts. Early in a game, take some hard drives, see if the refs will make a call. Guess what? They didn't last night, and it gets written in your book as a "bull his way to the rim" negative. Whistle blows? Grayson has 2 points, perhaps Miles Bridges or Nick Ward are in foul trouble, and it gets written down differently in your book.

The point is not how it gets written down in anyone's book. The point is intelligence. Grayson tried his bulldog ways in the first half, and he adjusted. And he adjusted excellently. To fault a guy for testing the boundaries of a game is missing the forest for the trees. The game is much more complicated than, "He drove too aggressively and made a bad play." It's simplifying strategies that are far more complicated than this - especially in college and especially at Duke.

Now this doesn't absolve Grayson of some basketball sins. He made some bad plays to be sure. But he also made some outstanding adjustments, and there's no way of knowing to what degree his earlier "sins" allowed for later excellence.

Finally, on your point on the weak side steals. I think we're talking about different plays. There was no chance for a charge on these plays. On at least one (maybe both) the ball was dumped deep underneath the hoop to a big. Grayson's not going to block the next shot attempt (and/or risk a foul in the process), and he's not going to get a charge (the ball is already in the restricted semicircle). But he's going to try for a sneaky, flashing steal. It's relatively low risk, relatively high reward given the context. Worst case he picks up a foul (bad, to be sure). Best case he gets a steal or disrupts the play or gets the guarding big (Chase/Amile) a second to decide their best defensive move at that point given they're already beat down low. Status quo is a dunk for MSU. Now you may call that "whiffing," but I call that intelligent. Not only did he foresee that our big guy was beat, but he reacted in a low-risk way to try to produce a high-reward outcome.

That's what great players do. To me, that's what basketball is about.

- Chillin

kAzE
11-30-2016, 01:33 PM
He's taking terrible looks. off the dribble and step back seem to be most of the shots (anecdotal...possibly biased observation?), and they're usually not good shots. He seems to be money on kick outs...but we didn't get a good job getting those sort of looks last night, or recently in general...which I think partially is the reason for overall poor three point shooting last night. I remember distinctly one occasion where grayson was wide open...not a guy within 15' at the top of the key...amile didn't even see him.

It doesn't seem like we're looking for that inside-outside play that gets you those shots...and it's not just amile, but any time one of our guards got inside (which they were able to do at ease), we weren't able to get someone else open on the perimeter. This meant the guard would get there, and often get "stuck" if you will.

I don't get that impression at all. He had maybe 2 shots last night that I would consider bad shots, and I believe one of them was because of the shot clock. I thought most of his 3s were of the uncontested catch and shoot variety, and all of his looks inside the arc were fine. Over his entire Duke career thus far, I think Luke has almost always taken good shots.

Dukehky
11-30-2016, 01:33 PM
Fine to disagree and you raise valid points. But here's some added commentary on my view.

Part of basketball at the highest level is being able to adjust to situations throughout a game. IMO this is one of the, if not the single, most important factors into what makes JV different from Varsity, Varsity different from College, College from the NBA, NBA benchwarmers to starters, etc. To better explain the point, any 6'8" HS player with a great shot can get said shot off without much of a problem in the vast majority of HS games. Enter college, and suddenly that shot is much more challenging. You have to be able to adjust. For some players (e.g. Chase Jeter) it takes a season or seasons to adjust to this. Move up the chain to starters in college or NBA players, and the learning curve becomes squeezed - meaning there's less runway. You don't get a season, you don't get a couple games. You don't get a half. You don't get 5 minutes. You have to adjust immediately at the highest levels. Players that can adjust - e.g. Kyrie on a drive - to moving sequences with variables flying left and right - produce some of the most incredible plays, performances, and careers that we tend to remember.

Take a step back to Grayson (who is no Kyrie, yet) and you can see the parallel to understanding the game contexts. Early in a game, take some hard drives, see if the refs will make a call. Guess what? They didn't last night, and it gets written in your book as a "bull his way to the rim" negative. Whistle blows? Grayson has 2 points, perhaps Miles Bridges or Nick Ward are in foul trouble, and it gets written down differently in your book.

The point is not how it gets written down in anyone's book. The point is intelligence. Grayson tried his bulldog ways in the first half, and he adjusted. And he adjusted excellently. To fault a guy for testing the boundaries of a game is missing the forest for the trees. The game is much more complicated than, "He drove too aggressively and made a bad play." It's simplifying strategies that are far more complicated than this - especially in college and especially at Duke.

Now this doesn't absolve Grayson of some basketball sins. He made some bad plays to be sure. But he also made some outstanding adjustments, and there's no way of knowing to what degree his earlier "sins" allowed for later excellence.

Finally, on your point on the weak side steals. I think we're talking about different plays. There was no chance for a charge on these plays. On at least one (maybe both) the ball was dumped deep underneath the hoop to a big. Grayson's not going to block the next shot attempt (and/or risk a foul in the process), and he's not going to get a charge (the ball is already in the restricted semicircle). But he's going to try for a sneaky, flashing steal. It's relatively low risk, relatively high reward given the context. Worst case he picks up a foul (bad, to be sure). Best case he gets a steal or disrupts the play or gets the guarding big (Chase/Amile) a second to decide their best defensive move at that point given they're already beat down low. Status quo is a dunk for MSU. Now you may call that "whiffing," but I call that intelligent. Not only did he foresee that our big guy was beat, but he reacted in a low-risk way to try to produce a high-reward outcome.

That's what great players do. To me, that's what basketball is about.

- Chillin

This is a really good point that I had not considered, because he didn't really change his strategy mid games last year.

I still think that he has a long way to go before considering him some kind of basketball savant that you seem to be placing on him, but it does seem that he is becoming a smarter player.

uh_no
11-30-2016, 01:44 PM
I don't get that impression at all. He had maybe 2 shots last night that I would consider bad shots, and I believe one of them was because of the shot clock. I thought most of his 3s were of the uncontested catch and shoot variety, and all of his looks inside the arc were fine. Over his entire Duke career thus far, I think Luke has almost always taken good shots.

i'd have to go back and watch. I suspected (and acknowledge) that it was possible i was falling prey to a myriad of biases. If I had infinite time, it's been on my list of things to do to track each player's three point attemts....location, how-closely-guarded, and preceding action (dribble, step back, kick out...etc) and see if anything correlated...which obviously would be a lot nicer than "i think i thought this while watching the game." As one can imagine, it is a monstrous undertaking...especially while watching from cameron. If I have a second tonight, i may go through and see if I can find the shots last night.

flyingdutchdevil
11-30-2016, 01:46 PM
He's taking terrible looks. off the dribble and step back seem to be most of the shots (anecdotal...possibly biased observation?), and they're usually not good shots. He seems to be money on kick outs...but we didn't get a good job getting those sort of looks last night, or recently in general...which I think partially is the reason for overall poor three point shooting last night. I remember distinctly one occasion where grayson was wide open...not a guy within 15' at the top of the key...amile didn't even see him.

It doesn't seem like we're looking for that inside-outside play that gets you those shots...and it's not just amile, but any time one of our guards got inside (which they were able to do at ease), we weren't able to get someone else open on the perimeter. This meant the guard would get there, and often get "stuck" if you will.

It's a mixed bag between bad shots and great open looks that just don't go in. I remember clearly that Kennard had two amazing looks (one in the first half and one in the second) that just didn't go in. They were so close, but no dice.

My theory: I don't think Kennard likes the rims at Cameron.

budwom
11-30-2016, 01:48 PM
Actually, K made it sound last night after the game like Tatum is the closest to returning -- and he's very close. It also sounded like Giles will be next to play ...

I read a bunch of his comments, and interpreted it the same way you did.....but some of the other comments were, to say the least, difficult to decipher. However, it would appear that
progress is being made. Hoping for at least one to play vs the Mainiacs...

uh_no
11-30-2016, 01:49 PM
My theory: I don't think Kennard likes the rims at Cameron.

I think he knows that the dukies will finish 1-8 in the NPOY voting, so he wants to ensure one of the upper classmen get #1 so they can get their jersey in the rafters by sandbagging just a little bit.

flyingdutchdevil
11-30-2016, 01:50 PM
I read a bunch of his comments, and interpreted it the same way you did...but some of the other comments were, to say the least, difficult to decipher. However, it would appear that
progress is being made. Hoping for at least one to play vs the Mainiacs...

I feel like we've been saying this exact statement for the last 3 weeks. I like when Coach K gives an update weekly: "the 3 amigos will NOT play this week." I don't like the ambiguity (no one does).

I also kinda hope Coach K would say, "one of the 3 amigos will play against Maine" and just leave it at that. The guesses and rumors on DBR would reach 100 pages.

MChambers
11-30-2016, 02:05 PM
I also kinda hope Coach K would say, "one of the 3 amigos will play against Maine" and just leave it at that. The guesses and rumors on DBR would reach 100 pages.

Are you kidding? K might break the Internet if he did that.

ChillinDuke
11-30-2016, 02:05 PM
This is a really good point that I had not considered, because he didn't really change his strategy mid games last year.

I still think that he has a long way to go before considering him some kind of basketball savant that you seem to be placing on him, but it does seem that he is becoming a smarter player.

No, no, no. Not a savant. That's too strong.

But man among boys? A step ahead? NBA player in college? Whatever tickles your fancy.

He exemplifies why elder statesmen in college add so much value to teams. And sometimes without putting statistics in a box score.

- Chillin

Spanarkel
11-30-2016, 02:30 PM
This is a really good point that I had not considered, because he didn't really change his strategy mid games last year.

I still think that he has a long way to go before considering him some kind of basketball savant that you seem to be placing on him, but it does seem that he is becoming a smarter player.



In the "Welcome to Duke, Wendell Carter" thread, you consider Jahlil Okafor to be a "generational talent." As POTUS has been known to say, "C'mon man." Okafor was a great OAD and will make a lot of money in the league, but I don't see him as a generational talent by any stretch of the imagination.

BD80
11-30-2016, 02:32 PM
... Matt Jones was anti-Matt Jones on offense: missing 0-6 on 3s, shooting 0-2 on FTs, and hitting a layup in traffic. These are all anti-Matt stats. ...

Well ....

This is where many of us disagree. I don't think I'm alone in cringing whenever Matt winds up for a "jump" shot. Nor do I feel comfortable when the ball is in his hands, good things are rarely initiated because of Matt having the ball.

I'm not saying Matt shouldn't play, I'd just rather the other 4 handle the offense.

SlapTheFloor
11-30-2016, 02:33 PM
I read a bunch of his comments, and interpreted it the same way you did....but some of the other comments were, to say the least, difficult to decipher. However, it would appear that
progress is being made. Hoping for at least one to play vs the Mainiacs...

Yeah, it's interesting that Tatum appears to have leap-frogged Bolden. I took his comments regarding Giles to mean he's physically ready to play, but they haven't had a chance to evaluate him against physical contact because they haven't been able to hold a true practice. I wonder if that means they will start giving him some minutes in some of the less-competitive games (like Maine) or if they will wait until a break in the schedule when they might be able to get in a few 5-on-5 practices.

Billy Dat
11-30-2016, 02:40 PM
Actually, K made it sound last night after the game like Tatum is the closest to returning -- and he's very close. It also sounded like Giles will be next to play ...


I feel like we've been saying this exact statement for the last 3 weeks. I like when Coach K gives an update weekly: "the 3 amigos will NOT play this week." I don't like the ambiguity (no one does). I also kinda hope Coach K would say, "one of the 3 amigos will play against Maine" and just leave it at that. The guesses and rumors on DBR would reach 100 pages.


Yeah, it's interesting that Tatum appears to have leap-frogged Bolden. I took his comments regarding Giles to mean he's physically ready to play, but they haven't had a chance to evaluate him against physical contact because they haven't been able to hold a true practice. I wonder if that means they will start giving him some minutes in some of the less-competitive games (like Maine) or if they will wait until a break in the schedule when they might be able to get in a few 5-on-5 practices.

K is a little busy right now. I think we should bring in a man who is expert at keeping everyone guessing at who will eventually be chosen...come on down POTUS-elect, you can run a "Duke Injured Frosh" Apprentice with the same level of suspense that you are running the Secretary of State Apprentice!

BD80
11-30-2016, 02:42 PM
K is a little busy right now. I think we should bring in a man who is expert at keeping everyone guessing at who will eventually be chosen...come on down POTUS-elect, you can run a "Duke Injured Frosh" Apprentice with the same level of suspense that you are running the Secretary of State Apprentice!

Why would you even joke about this?

Our freshman are FAR too important to entrust to a Reality TV personality!

devildeac
11-30-2016, 02:44 PM
It's a mixed bag between bad shots and great open looks that just don't go in. I remember clearly that Kennard had two amazing looks (one in the first half and one in the second) that just didn't go in. They were so close, but no dice.

My theory: I don't think Kennard likes the rims at Cameron.

Yea, he even missed 2 FT last PM :eek: .

DukieInBrasil
11-30-2016, 03:07 PM
Fine to disagree and you raise valid points. But here's some added commentary on my view.

Part of basketball at the highest level is being able to adjust to situations throughout a game. IMO this is one of the, if not the single, most important factors into what makes JV different from Varsity, Varsity different from College, College from the NBA, NBA benchwarmers to starters, etc. To better explain the point, any 6'8" HS player with a great shot can get said shot off without much of a problem in the vast majority of HS games. Enter college, and suddenly that shot is much more challenging. You have to be able to adjust. For some players (e.g. Chase Jeter) it takes a season or seasons to adjust to this. Move up the chain to starters in college or NBA players, and the learning curve becomes squeezed - meaning there's less runway. You don't get a season, you don't get a couple games. You don't get a half. You don't get 5 minutes. You have to adjust immediately at the highest levels. Players that can adjust - e.g. Kyrie on a drive - to moving sequences with variables flying left and right - produce some of the most incredible plays, performances, and careers that we tend to remember.

Take a step back to Grayson (who is no Kyrie, yet) and you can see the parallel to understanding the game contexts. Early in a game, take some hard drives, see if the refs will make a call. Guess what? They didn't last night, and it gets written in your book as a "bull his way to the rim" negative. Whistle blows? Grayson has 2 points, perhaps Miles Bridges or Nick Ward are in foul trouble, and it gets written down differently in your book.

The point is not how it gets written down in anyone's book. The point is intelligence. Grayson tried his bulldog ways in the first half, and he adjusted. And he adjusted excellently. To fault a guy for testing the boundaries of a game is missing the forest for the trees. The game is much more complicated than, "He drove too aggressively and made a bad play." It's simplifying strategies that are far more complicated than this - especially in college and especially at Duke.

Now this doesn't absolve Grayson of some basketball sins. He made some bad plays to be sure. But he also made some outstanding adjustments, and there's no way of knowing to what degree his earlier "sins" allowed for later excellence.

Finally, on your point on the weak side steals. I think we're talking about different plays. There was no chance for a charge on these plays. On at least one (maybe both) the ball was dumped deep underneath the hoop to a big. Grayson's not going to block the next shot attempt (and/or risk a foul in the process), and he's not going to get a charge (the ball is already in the restricted semicircle). But he's going to try for a sneaky, flashing steal. It's relatively low risk, relatively high reward given the context. Worst case he picks up a foul (bad, to be sure). Best case he gets a steal or disrupts the play or gets the guarding big (Chase/Amile) a second to decide their best defensive move at that point given they're already beat down low. Status quo is a dunk for MSU. Now you may call that "whiffing," but I call that intelligent. Not only did he foresee that our big guy was beat, but he reacted in a low-risk way to try to produce a high-reward outcome.

That's what great players do. To me, that's what basketball is about.

- Chillin

I think you've changed the goalpost quite a bit. There's a big difference between what's implied by "total consciousness" or an "IQ that is so superior to others" and making in-game adjustments. I agree with you that Grayson has done a good job of making in-game adjustments, last night was a good example of that. However, your implications of superior IQ, or something not unlike a savant, would indicate that he is doing something consistently from game to game that is superior. I would argue that he is not. If he were doing the things you're talking about he would have more than 4 assists and have fewer than 4 turnovers, he would miss fewer than 2/3 of his shots and get more than 2 steals. Also, if it was an "innate ability", he wouldn't have to learn it.
Grayson has moments in any particular game where he plays really well. He also has stretches where he plays quite poorly. Overall, i think he's playing ok, and perhaps, if we consider that he is playing injured, better than he did last year. It is far from clear that he is playing at a different level either from last year, or from anyone else on the floor, as your first comments indicated.
I would love for him to get fully recovered so that we can see whether/how much he has improved from last year. I like Grayson and i think he is an important part of this team, but i'm not about to make hyperbolic announcements regarding his play.

English
11-30-2016, 03:12 PM
From my eye, it looked last night like Grayson saw he was initially matched up on offense against the under-developed McQuaid, so he wanted to get going early by driving and getting some quick buckets at the rim. Perhaps it was even in the scouting report/gameplan. No way does Matt McQuaid stop a healthy Grayson from scoring at the rim. It didn't go that way, obviously, as Grayson missed a couple that might normally go down. I concede that he did have a drive or two where he (again) looked for a foul rather than the hoop or dish.

The perimeter shooting was tough to explain last night--a few times, I was thinking about the default "sightline" comments everyone makes about playing in arenas. Never did I think the guys would have so much difficulty shooting on their home hoops. Aside from a Grayson heat check (after the back-to-back 3pts) and a Luke shot to beat the clock, I didn't think any of the shots taken and bricked were particularly bad decisions--most came in the flow of play, some wide open.

Let me pile on for a moment about the value that Amile is bringing to this team right now. He's is an absolute foundational piece on both ends. His leadership cannot be overstated, and he's really the only frontcourt player that's seeing extended minutes (Chase did provide some good things last night). He's such a solid, smart defensive player that K can rely on him to stay out of foul trouble while bothering the other team's big(s). And the offense he's providing is a boon--the fake to the middle, spin back to the right, bank shot down low is so tough to stop. I'm not too surprised about the relatively minor media attention that Amile is getting, but his counting stats are every bit as good as Kennedy Meeks (who, I'm not sure if you heard, has lost some weight) and he's much more valuable to his team as the only primary big.

Obligatory: I'm super psyched to see the three frosh in the (hopefully) imminent future. If it weren't so depressing, it would be hilarious how the staff has communicated the status updates before+after each game. After last game, Giles was the closest to return but hadn't participated in any contact activity. Tatum was the furthest from full health. After last night, Tatum is closest to return, but Giles is also close; Bolden is progressing, but is has the most ground to cover. Obviously a tremendous number of factors (nature of injury, severity, likelihood of exacerbation, body type, propensity to heal) affect time of return, but it's pretty amusing this injury game of musical chairs.

Finally, Luke and Frank are a tremendous offensive duo. Very happy these guys have stepped up and are providing the quantity and quality of minutes they're giving. Fun to watch.

dukelifer
11-30-2016, 03:59 PM
Kennard is a funny shooter. He is like a jazz musician. He loves to improvise, play fast, and dazzle with new rifs. His technical abilities- what makes JJ, Klay Thmpson and Ray Allen so great - is just fair. Seth Curry may be the best in the world at doing both. Grayson has a little of both as well but is less crafty than Kennard- and uses his aggressiveness and strength more. If Kennard becomes Curry, Duke will be very good but he is just a growing sophomore. All I know is that in money time he usually performs- and that is what matters most. Duke has three capable go-to guys in Jackson, Kennard and Allen and probably 4 when Tatum comes back. That is amazing.

Should have said Steph Curry. Damn those Curry's for giving both their kids similar names and similar games ;)

Dukehky
11-30-2016, 04:36 PM
In the "Welcome to Duke, Wendell Carter" thread, you consider Jahlil Okafor to be a "generational talent." As POTUS has been known to say, "C'mon man." Okafor was a great OAD and will make a lot of money in the league, but I don't see him as a generational talent by any stretch of the imagination.

Say this again and I will derail every thread on this board.

I have NEVER seen a college freshman with the size and skill of Jahlil Okafor. Just because NBA front offices only want bigs who play defense and rebound (I think that is more of a motor thing than a talent thing with Jahlil, especially since he's playing for a terrible team) doesn't mean that he wasn't a generational college talent. He was the best player in the country that year, I don't care that people thought it was cute the big goofy white guy could shoot threes. He was the best freshman college center of the last couple decades.

He isn't a transcendant NBA talent, but that dude comes along once in a generation.

gam7
11-30-2016, 04:40 PM
K is a little busy right now. I think we should bring in a man who is expert at keeping everyone guessing at who will eventually be chosen...come on down POTUS-elect, you can run a "Duke Injured Frosh" Apprentice with the same level of suspense that you are running the Secretary of State Apprentice!

Rumor has it that Trump's level of security clearance now allows him to be briefed on the status of our injured freshmen.

jv001
11-30-2016, 04:54 PM
Well ...

This is where many of us disagree. I don't think I'm alone in cringing whenever Matt winds up for a "jump" shot. Nor do I feel comfortable when the ball is in his hands, good things are rarely initiated because of Matt having the ball.

I'm not saying Matt shouldn't play, I'd just rather the other 4 handle the offense.

I usual don't cringe when Matt takes a dish out three from the corner or top of the key, but I really cringe when he drives to the basket. It seems it most always ends with a miss and a run out going the other way. Like you, I'm not saying Matt shouldn't play or get big minutes, because he's a very good defender. GoDuke!

DukieInBrasil
11-30-2016, 05:01 PM
I usual don't cringe when Matt takes a dish out three from the corner or top of the key, but I really cringe when he drives to the basket. It seems it most always ends with a miss and a run out going the other way. Like you, I'm not saying Matt shouldn't play or get big minutes, because he's a very good defender. GoDuke!

last night i cringed as Matt began driving, b/c almost on cue a defender got his hand on the ball and Matt lost the ball but managed to save it out to a teammate for a 3. Matt just doesn't have a good handle, nor does he have particularly good shots in traffic. He's usually a solid spot-up shooter, just not last night.

flyingdutchdevil
11-30-2016, 05:04 PM
I usual don't cringe when Matt takes a dish out three from the corner or top of the key, but I really cringe when he drives to the basket. It seems it most always ends with a miss and a run out going the other way. Like you, I'm not saying Matt shouldn't play or get big minutes, because he's a very good defender. GoDuke!

I do not cringe in the slightest when Matt shoots a three (I cringe more when Jackson shoots 3s. He's airballed a few times already). Matt's drives to the basket, however, are another story. It's arguably the worst shot on this Duke team, and something that he still continues despite having one of the lowest expected values in the game. Hell, a Grayson mid-court shot is arguably a better shot than Matt's drives in traffic (and I understand that he did make a drive in traffic yesterday. I was screaming at the TV when I realized that he wasn't going to pass but shoot).

jv001
11-30-2016, 05:37 PM
I do not cringe in the slightest when Matt shoots a three (I cringe more when Jackson shoots 3s. He's airballed a few times already). Matt's drives to the basket, however, are another story. It's arguably the worst shot on this Duke team, and something that he still continues despite having one of the lowest expected values in the game. Hell, a Grayson mid-court shot is arguably a better shot than Matt's drives in traffic (and I understand that he did make a drive in traffic yesterday. I was screaming at the TV when I realized that he wasn't going to pass but shoot).

Must spread sporks, that's funny, a Grayson half-court shot better than a Matt drive in traffic. Matt is not athletic at all but he get's the most out of his basketball body in order to play the terrific defense he does. That to me is amazing. I really like the guy, but not his ball handling. GoDuke!

luvdahops
11-30-2016, 05:50 PM
I do not cringe in the slightest when Matt shoots a three (I cringe more when Jackson shoots 3s. He's airballed a few times already). Matt's drives to the basket, however, are another story. It's arguably the worst shot on this Duke team, and something that he still continues despite having one of the lowest expected values in the game. Hell, a Grayson mid-court shot is arguably a better shot than Matt's drives in traffic (and I understand that he did make a drive in traffic yesterday. I was screaming at the TV when I realized that he wasn't going to pass but shoot).

I tend to agree but would note that last night on his scoring drive, Matt actually did seem to take the ball right at the rim, rather than fading away to avoid contact or a block, which is usually the case. No accident IMHO that it was successful as a result.

NSDukeFan
11-30-2016, 05:52 PM
Kennard is a funny shooter. He is like a jazz musician. He loves to improvise, play fast, and dazzle with new rifs. His technical abilities- what makes JJ, Klay Thmpson and Ray Allen so great - is just fair. Seth Curry may be the best in the world at doing both. Grayson has a little of both as well but is less crafty than Kennard- and uses his aggressiveness and strength more. If Kennard becomes Curry, Duke will be very good but he is just a growing sophomore. All I know is that in money time he usually performs- and that is what matters most. Duke has three capable go-to guys in Jackson, Kennard and Allen and probably 4 when Tatum comes back. That is amazing.


Should have said Steph Curry. Damn those Curry's for giving both their kids similar names and similar games ;)

If Kennard becomes Steph Curry, I think Duke will be more than pretty good. Especially, if Giles is better than Chris Webber was, Tatum is the best scorer in this loaded freshman class and Bolden is the best center in this loaded freshman class.

I don't ever cringe when Matt drives and especially when he shoots (typically one of the most efficient shots Duke can take, except for last night). Of course, I also liked seeing Josh Hairston and Lance Thomas take open jumpers their senior years as well.

Spanarkel
11-30-2016, 05:57 PM
Say this again and I will derail every thread on this board.

I have NEVER seen a college freshman with the size and skill of Jahlil Okafor.

He isn't a transcendant NBA talent, but that dude comes along once in a generation.


Did you every see Ralph Sampson(15ppg/11rpg/4.6blocks/game as frosh), Shaquille O'Neal, Alonzo Mourning, Tim Duncan, or Mike Gminski, among others? Of course, Lew Alcindor(KA-J), Elvin Hayes, Bill Walton and others couldn't play varsity ball as freshmen. Okafor blocked a rather pedestrian 54 shots in 38 games, and his RPG were 8.5.

kAzE
11-30-2016, 06:03 PM
Did you every see Ralph Sampson(15ppg/11rpg/4.6blocks/game as frosh), Shaquille O'Neal, Alonzo Mourning, Tim Duncan, or Mike Gminski, among others? Of course, Lew Alcindor(KA-J), Elvin Hayes, Bill Walton and others couldn't play varsity ball as freshmen. Okafor blocked a rather pedestrian 54 shots in 38 games, and his RPG were 8.5.

Not to mention Karl Towns, from Okafor's same freshman class, who has just as much size, and is more skilled . . .

NSDukeFan
11-30-2016, 06:04 PM
Did you every see Ralph Sampson(15ppg/11rpg/4.6blocks/game as frosh), Shaquille O'Neal, Alonzo Mourning, Tim Duncan, or Mike Gminski, among others? Of course, Lew Alcindor(KA-J), Elvin Hayes, Bill Walton and others couldn't play varsity ball as freshmen. Okafor blocked a rather pedestrian 54 shots in 38 games, and his RPG were 8.5.

I agree with your sentiment, but every player you listed is a previous generation and none of them are still playing. Mention Anthony Davis, Towns, Oden (so sad), and other more recent centres and your point is more valid. I do think Okafor was one of the best college low post scorers in awhile.

English
11-30-2016, 06:20 PM
I agree with your sentiment, but every player you listed is a previous generation and none of them are still playing. Mention Anthony Davis, Towns, Oden (so sad), and other more recent centres and your point is more valid. I do think Okafor was one of the best college low post scorers in awhile.

For me, it's a question of the scope of the debate--if we're talking about a center's all-around game, it's tough to argue for Okafor as a generational talent because his defense was/is so pedestrian. Anthony Davis is also probably nixed because his offense was average, if slightly above average. It's tough to tell with Towns because of that vile platoon nonsense that UK used, but he's obviously lit the League on fire in his young career. Embiid may actually be the best all-around college big in awhile because he had both offense and defense, despite barely playing any organized basketball in his youth and his bevy of injury woes...but really, none was leaping off the page on BOTH sides.

If we're talking offense only, I've got no problem with anyone suggesting Okafor was leaps ahead of anyone I can remember as such a young post player, and a generational talent. There were many (perhaps most) in the college & NBA scouting universe, who said exactly that--of course, these folks are also prone to hyperbole and recency bias, so, there's also that to consider.

mkirsh
11-30-2016, 06:42 PM
I'm really intrigued to watch Frank Jackson develop this year. For large portions of the games it's easy to forget he's even in the game, but then he erupts with stretches where he is the best player on the floor. His combination of strength, speed, athleticism, and finishing ability as a frosh remind me of JWill as a freshman. Frank playing aggressive for 40 minutes would give this team another gear.

mkirsh
11-30-2016, 06:53 PM
For me, it's a question of the scope of the debate--if we're talking about a center's all-around game, it's tough to argue for Okafor as a generational talent because his defense was/is so pedestrian. Anthony Davis is also probably nixed because his offense was average, if slightly above average. It's tough to tell with Towns because of that vile platoon nonsense that UK used, but he's obviously lit the League on fire in his young career. Embiid may actually be the best all-around college big in awhile because he had both offense and defense, despite barely playing any organized basketball in his youth and his bevy of injury woes...but really, none was leaping off the page on BOTH sides.

If we're talking offense only, I've got no problem with anyone suggesting Okafor was leaps ahead of anyone I can remember as such a young post player, and a generational talent. There were many (perhaps most) in the college & NBA scouting universe, who said exactly that--of course, these folks are also prone to hyperbole and recency bias, so, there's also that to consider.

It's an interesting discussion. Go back a generation - call it 20 years - who are the best college centers? In quickly glancing through AA teams I think the list is actually pretty short - Tim Duncan, Elton Brand, Emeka Okafor, Greg Oden, Hansbrough (yuck but a 2 time college AA), Boogie Cousins, Anthony Davis, KAT, Jah - that might be the entire list. So I think it's fair to say he's one of the best 10 college centers of the last 20 years.

NSDukeFan
11-30-2016, 07:09 PM
It's an interesting discussion. Go back a generation - call it 20 years - who are the best college centers? In quickly glancing through AA teams I think the list is actually pretty short - Tim Duncan, Elton Brand, Emeka Okafor, Greg Oden, Hansbrough (yuck but a 2 time college AA), Boogie Cousins, Anthony Davis, KAT, Jah - that might be the entire list. So I think it's fair to say he's one of the best 10 college centers of the last 20 years.

And as far as post scorers, you may be able to say top 5.

azzefkram
11-30-2016, 07:10 PM
I cringe more when Jackson shoots 3s. He's airballed a few times already

Surprisingly the person with the best 3p% is... Jackson. I was surprised when I saw this but I guess it's a function of when he misses he seems to miss badly.

Dukehky
11-30-2016, 07:42 PM
And as far as post scorers, you may be able to say top 5.

I will maintain until the day that I die that he was not a better defensive player because K told him to make sure he didn't foul. Marshall was not our beloved Marshall of last year, he was kind of meh in 2015.

KAT was nowhere near as Jah that year and Anthony Davis didn't play center.

Like I said, whatever the truth may be, I have warped this in my mind to a point that I will never change. Jah was the best.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-30-2016, 07:55 PM
Grayson is a very good, sometimes great player, who has been thrust into an awkward position this year where he frequently "forces" things. In the first half, he was trying to force the issue in positions where it wasn't warranted. In the second half, he allowed the game to come to him and found a rhythm that allowed him to excel.

To be clear, with the injuries the team has sustained so far this year, he frequently finds himself in impossible situations. As we get more players back on the field, he will transition into his more natural role.

I feel this is a bigger issue than his nagging injuries, and for this reason I have zero concern for how his season plays out. By February, he will be the opponent no one wants to face once again.

Steven43
11-30-2016, 08:22 PM
Grayson's effectiveness from outside is BECAUSE he is a threat to drive to the rim at any time. And, counter to some other posts, I think he is tremendously effective driving to the basket. Maybe I am giving too much weight to the NC game against Wisconsin, but I don't think so. And, if he has missed a few more than usual this, year, it's because of his injuries.

In the National Championship game Wisconsin was not expecting drives to the basket from Grayson; they weren't prepared to guard him effectively. Now that his game is a known quantity teams expect him to drive and they're ready for it. Though he is a good athlete, he has neither the explosive first step nor the extreme agility required to physically separate himself from good defenders who are ready and waiting.

I think he would benefit greatly by taking short jumpers after he has penetrated the outer layer of defense rather than challenging a waiting defender(s) at the basket. Austin Rivers used to make this same mistake REPEATEDLY. A guard who can consistently score on the inside against high-level college or NBA players has to be either an elite athlete (Russell Westbrook, pre-injury Derrick Rose) or have amazing handles and shot-fake ability (Steve Nash, Kyrie Irving, Steph Curry). Grayson is neither of these types.....yet.

Edouble
11-30-2016, 08:52 PM
Did you every see Ralph Sampson(15ppg/11rpg/4.6blocks/game as frosh), Shaquille O'Neal, Alonzo Mourning, Tim Duncan, or Mike Gminski, among others? Of course, Lew Alcindor(KA-J), Elvin Hayes, Bill Walton and others couldn't play varsity ball as freshmen. Okafor blocked a rather pedestrian 54 shots in 38 games, and his RPG were 8.5.


I agree with your sentiment, but every player you listed is a previous generation and none of them are still playing. Mention Anthony Davis, Towns, Oden (so sad), and other more recent centres and your point is more valid. I do think Okafor was one of the best college low post scorers in awhile.


It's an interesting discussion. Go back a generation - call it 20 years - who are the best college centers? In quickly glancing through AA teams I think the list is actually pretty short - Tim Duncan, Elton Brand, Emeka Okafor, Greg Oden, Hansbrough (yuck but a 2 time college AA), Boogie Cousins, Anthony Davis, KAT, Jah - that might be the entire list. So I think it's fair to say he's one of the best 10 college centers of the last 20 years.

While the list is skewed back in the early days due to freshman ineligibility, the list is also skewed over the last 20 years due to the fact that the one and done rule was only implemented 10 years ago, and a good chunk of the guys that went straight from high school to the pros were big men.

Even guys who were complete or partial busts like Kwame Brown, Eddie Curry, Jonathan Bender, Robert Swift, Ndubi Ebi, and Desagana Diop might have been dominant in a year of college... so the list over the last 20 years for freshman bigs becomes very diluted, IMO.

dukelifer
11-30-2016, 09:17 PM
Rumor has it that Trump's level of security clearance now allows him to be briefed on the status of our injured freshmen.

He doesn't go to security meetings but that said I doubt even he has high enough clearance- K operates at the level of the illuminati.

DoubleBlue
11-30-2016, 10:23 PM
I will maintain until the day that I die that he was not a better defensive player because K told him to make sure he didn't foul. Marshall was not our beloved Marshall of last year, he was kind of meh in 2015.

KAT was nowhere near as Jah that year and Anthony Davis didn't play center.

Like I said, whatever the truth may be, I have warped this in my mind to a point that I will never change. Jah was the best.

Good article yesterday about Okafor:

Seltzer's Notebook: Brown Liking Okafor's Contributions, Still Focused on Fundamentals
http://www.nba.com/sixers/news/seltzers-notebook-brown-liking-okafors-contributions-still-focused-fundamentals


Over the past week, Okafor has reached double-figures in four of five appearances, and posted at least five boards in three consecutive games. He seemed encouraged by his recent steadiness following Monday’s 122-95 defeat at Air Canada Centre.

“Just being more comfortable, getting in better game shape,” Okafor said about how he’s felt lately. “I really wasn’t able to do anything prior to the season because of my knee. I was restricted from doing extra running and stuff like that.”


In the early stages of this season, Brown has commended Okafor for being a willing learner, and coachable. The last few days, his output on the glass would lead one to believe that the instruction is hitting home.

“Defensively, he is more of a positional rebounder,” said Brown. “He’s not what I would deem length rebounder. He has to make his hits, hold his ground, and then chase balls.

“We understand Jahlil is a scorer, he’s scored his whole life. It’s the other parts of his game...that we’re trying to grow him where he becomes a more complete player.”

CDu
12-01-2016, 09:30 AM
I will maintain until the day that I die that he was not a better defensive player because K told him to make sure he didn't foul. Marshall was not our beloved Marshall of last year, he was kind of meh in 2015.

KAT was nowhere near as Jah that year and Anthony Davis didn't play center.

Like I said, whatever the truth may be, I have warped this in my mind to a point that I will never change. Jah was the best.

Umm, I'm not sure what position you think Davis played. Who played center for that team if not Davis? Certainly not Teague (PG), Lamb (SG), Miller (SG/SF) or Kidd-Gilchrist (SF/PF). Terrence Jones was their PF. That's it for the main rotation players for UK that year. Kyle Wiltjer played 11 mpg and Eloy Vargas played about 4-5 mpg after accounting for DNPs.

Davis absolutely played center.

grad_devil
12-01-2016, 10:13 AM
Surprisingly the person with the best 3p% is... Jackson. I was surprised when I saw this but I guess it's a function of when he misses he seems to miss badly.

This. It seems like there isn't such a thing as a "close" miss for Frank.

kAzE
12-01-2016, 10:24 AM
He doesn't go to security meetings but that said I doubt even he has high enough clearance- K operates at the level of the illuminati.

Trump can put his team of Russian hackers on it ;)

Neals384
12-01-2016, 11:25 AM
As much as I love Luke, I don't like his tendency to point fingers after defensive breakdowns. He does a lot of that "what the heck?" arms-out, eye-roll look at his teammates...of course, I don't go back and look to see if he is right or wrong, but it doesn't align with K's "good face" dictum.


The one time I saw Luke do this, he was clearly right. Chase had failed to hedge at all against a screen, and Luke's man was able to go in for a layup. Still, it's the coach's job, not Luke's, to correct that.

Troublemaker
12-01-2016, 11:44 AM
The one time I saw Luke do this, he was clearly right. Chase had failed to hedge at all against a screen, and Luke's man was able to go in for a layup. Still, it's the coach's job, not Luke's, to correct that.

If it's the play that Bilas commented on (ball screen near sideline), it's hard to say who was at fault. If Chase didn't yell out "Ice!" to notify Luke that a screen was coming, then it was his fault. If he yelled and Luke didn't re-position his body quickly enough to force the ball-handler away from the screen (away from the middle), then it was Luke's fault. If Chase yelled and Luke couldn't hear due to the crowd noise (most likely, imo), then it was neither player's fault and just something that happens sometimes playing in Cameron.

Billy Dat
12-01-2016, 11:45 AM
The one time I saw Luke do this, he was clearly right. Chase had failed to hedge at all against a screen, and Luke's man was able to go in for a layup. Still, it's the coach's job, not Luke's, to correct that.

That's only if the assigned defense was show-and-recover. Bilas pointed out on the telecast that if the assigned defense was ice/down, which Duke has been predominately using since K started coaching with Thibs, then Luke's assignment is to prevent a middle drive and Chase was kind of in the right spot (although probably too far toward the sideline).

We need former Duke assistant Hubie Brown's famous live lecture, 30 ways to guard a pick and roll.

Either way, I don't like the visible finger pointing, I see Amile doing it too, but it definitely works for some groups so I'll chalk it up to not being my personal preference and keep it moving.

flyingdutchdevil
12-01-2016, 11:56 AM
That's only if the assigned defense was show-and-recover. Bilas pointed out on the telecast that if the assigned defense was ice/down, which Duke has been predominately using since K started coaching with Thibs, then Luke's assignment is to prevent a middle drive and Chase was kind of in the right spot (although probably too far toward the sideline).

We need former Duke assistant Hubie Brown's famous live lecture, 30 ways to guard a pick and roll.

Either way, I don't like the visible finger pointing, I see Amile doing it too, but it definitely works for some groups so I'll chalk it up to not being my personal preference and keep it moving.

I never really noticed Luke doing it until I saw a reply last night, but I've seen Amile doing it for the whole season, especially with Jackson, who I've labelled "Amile's whipping boy". I'm sure what Amile is saying is 100% valid and he has the coach's blessing to do so, but it looks very unpleasant on TV.

Billy Dat
12-01-2016, 12:27 PM
I never really noticed Luke doing it until I saw a reply last night, but I've seen Amile doing it for the whole season, especially with Jackson, who I've labelled "Amile's whipping boy". I'm sure what Amile is saying is 100% valid and he has the coach's blessing to do so, but it looks very unpleasant on TV.

You know who was the King of that move....RASHEED!

phaedrus
12-01-2016, 12:37 PM
While the list is skewed back in the early days due to freshman ineligibility, the list is also skewed over the last 20 years due to the fact that the one and done rule was only implemented 10 years ago, and a good chunk of the guys that went straight from high school to the pros were big men.

Even guys who were complete or partial busts like Kwame Brown, Eddie Curry, Jonathan Bender, Robert Swift, Ndubi Ebi, and Desagana Diop might have been dominant in a year of college... so the list over the last 20 years for freshman bigs becomes very diluted, IMO.

Eddie Curry is the only guy on this list - and only Amar'e among the straight-to-NBA centers in this era who were not busts - who exhibited an ounce of the offensive talent of Okafor as a teenager. The others may have been imposing dunkers, shot-blockers, rebounders, but it was Okafor's back to the basket game that set him apart, and in that regard I think he stands out even among these players.

jimsumner
12-01-2016, 12:49 PM
I never really noticed Luke doing it until I saw a reply last night, but I've seen Amile doing it for the whole season, especially with Jackson, who I've labelled "Amile's whipping boy". I'm sure what Amile is saying is 100% valid and he has the coach's blessing to do so, but it looks very unpleasant on TV.

When the coach consistently praises Jefferson's leadership and communication skills, than I think we can assume that Jefferson does indeed after the coach's blessing. Jefferson is the defensive coach on the floor.

CDu
12-01-2016, 12:52 PM
It's an interesting discussion. Go back a generation - call it 20 years - who are the best college centers? In quickly glancing through AA teams I think the list is actually pretty short - Tim Duncan, Elton Brand, Emeka Okafor, Greg Oden, Hansbrough (yuck but a 2 time college AA), Boogie Cousins, Anthony Davis, KAT, Jah - that might be the entire list. So I think it's fair to say he's one of the best 10 college centers of the last 20 years.

Worth noting that Duncan wouldn't be on this list if he had been a one-and-done. He only averaged 9.8 ppg (in 30 mpg) as a freshman. As a sophomore that average jumped to 16.8 ppg. Similar story for Okafor, who averaged just 7.9 ppg in 30 mpg. I think Okafor is in a list with Brand (whose numbers were limited by his minutes as a frosh), Cousins, Oden, and Davis in terms of freshmen talents at center in the last two decades. Hansbrough's numbers were inflated by tempo (and he was always more of an effort guy than a skill guy), and Towns just didn't play enough as a frosh.

vick
12-01-2016, 01:29 PM
Worth noting that Duncan wouldn't be on this list if he had been a one-and-done. He only averaged 9.8 ppg (in 30 mpg) as a freshman. As a sophomore that average jumped to 16.8 ppg. Similar story for Okafor, who averaged just 7.9 ppg in 30 mpg. I think Okafor is in a list with Brand (whose numbers were limited by his minutes as a frosh), Cousins, Oden, and Davis in terms of freshmen talents at center in the last two decades. Hansbrough's numbers were inflated by tempo (and he was always more of an effort guy than a skill guy), and Towns just didn't play enough as a frosh.

I would put Kevin Love, who put up better pace-adjusted numbers as a freshman than Hansbrough ever did, on that list.

CDu
12-01-2016, 02:13 PM
I would put Kevin Love, who put up better pace-adjusted numbers as a freshman than Hansbrough ever did, on that list.

Excellent point. Love was a pretty fantastic player in his one season in college.

mkirsh
12-01-2016, 02:56 PM
Excellent point. Love was a pretty fantastic player in his one season in college.

Very fair. I excluded him from the original list as I thought of him more as a power forward, with the logic being that Mbah A Moute and Mata-Real platooned at the 5, and K. Love was 3rd on the team in 3 pt attempts, but I can see the argument for putting him as a college 5.

And to the overall point, there are lots of ways to define "generational player"; I went with "guys as we have seen them in college" - so what they turned into in the NBA, whether they left before they developed or skipped altogether, etc, were not included, just an evaluation of them as they contributed when at school. That means comparing Senior Duncan with Junior Boozer and Sophomore Brand and Freshman KAT and ignoring Dwight Howard, etc, but obviously there are different (and valid) ways to go about the discussion.

CDu
12-01-2016, 03:58 PM
Very fair. I excluded him from the original list as I thought of him more as a power forward, with the logic being that Mbah A Moute and Mata-Real platooned at the 5, and K. Love was 3rd on the team in 3 pt attempts, but I can see the argument for putting him as a college 5.

Mbah a Moute was smaller (2 inches shorter and 20 lbs lighter) and much more mobile than Love, and thus he played PF. Mata-Real was the backup C and played just 13 mpg. Love was the definition of a college center, and was the center on that team.

mgtr
12-01-2016, 04:57 PM
So many Kevin Love points that I have ask if he was the UCLA recruit whose father tried to negotiate playing time before he committed. I am guessing that it was someone else, but I don't know who.

CDu
12-01-2016, 05:02 PM
So many Kevin Love points that I have ask if he was the UCLA recruit whose father tried to negotiate playing time before he committed. I am guessing that it was someone else, but I don't know who.

It's certainly possible, but would seem weird. Love was one of the top recruits in the country, and UCLA didn't exactly have much in the way of competition at C (Mata Real was just not in the same stratosphere as Love). And he led that team to the Final Four.

I know Kris Humphries' dad tried that with Duke, which is why he wound up at Minnesota.

DukieInBrasil
12-01-2016, 05:24 PM
It's certainly possible, but would seem weird. Love was one of the top recruits in the country, and UCLA didn't exactly have much in the way of competition at C (Mata Real was just not in the same stratosphere as Love). And he led that team to the Final Four.

I know Kris Humphries' dad tried that with Duke, which is why he wound up at Minnesota.

the only Love-beef with Duke that i know of is that Love was peeved that Singler got co-player of the year for Oregon HS basketball with Love. I don't remember Love ever being in any way pissed at Duke for anything.

jimsumner
12-01-2016, 05:54 PM
the only Love-beef with Duke that i know of is that Love was peeved that Singler got co-player of the year for Oregon HS basketball with Love. I don't remember Love ever being in any way pissed at Duke for anything.

Love kept telling people that he and Singler were a package deal.

Singler didn't much care for Love and disabused the Duke coaches of any notion that the two were positively linked.

The Duke coaches went from there.

Seemed to work out.

I assume most on this board know that Kevin Love's father Stan played in the NBA and that Stan's brother Mike-and Kevin's uncle--is that Mike Love.

BD80
12-01-2016, 06:03 PM
Love kept telling people that he and Singler were a package deal.

Singler didn't much care for Love and disabused the Duke coaches of any notion that the two were positively linked.

The Duke coaches went from there.

Seemed to work out.

I assume most on this board know that Kevin Love's father Stan played in the NBA and that Stan's brother Mike-and Kevin's uncle--is that Mike Love.

But Kevin didn't give Kyle Good Vibrations?

sagegrouse
12-01-2016, 06:58 PM
Love kept telling people that he and Singler were a package deal.

Singler didn't much care for Love and disabused the Duke coaches of any notion that the two were positively linked.

The Duke coaches went from there.

Seemed to work out.

I assume most on this board know that Kevin Love's father Stan played in the NBA and that Stan's brother Mike-and Kevin's uncle--is that Mike Love.

I remember an article at the time of Love's drafting, referring to being national HS player of the year but only co-POY in Oregon. I thought his comments had a bemused quality, not one of complaint, but then I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday.

tbyers11
12-01-2016, 07:16 PM
Yikes! It appears that the injury bug affecting our highly touted freshman is contagious.

Miles Bridges to miss "a couple of weeks" with an ankle injury suffered during the Duke game Tuesday night (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18182789/miles-bridges-michigan-state-couple-weeks-ankle-injury)

NSDukeFan
12-01-2016, 08:13 PM
Yikes! It appears that the injury bug affecting our highly touted freshman is contagious.

Miles Bridges to miss "a couple of weeks" with an ankle injury suffered during the Duke game Tuesday night (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/18182789/miles-bridges-michigan-state-couple-weeks-ankle-injury)

Rip up the floor at Cameron.

-jk
12-01-2016, 08:38 PM
Rip up the floor at Cameron.

Goody! More floor pieces to sell... (I have some of Foster's floor, and the framed floor parts that fell off the backing.)

-jk

mr. synellinden
12-01-2016, 08:51 PM
Rip up the floor at Cameron.

This may have been sarcastic but wouldn't it make sense to at least look into it and see if there is something unusual about the court surface and what's underneath it? Is there enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that there MIGHT be something causing stress to the legs/feet of players or otherwise contributing to injuries?

DoubleBlue
12-01-2016, 09:03 PM
This may have been sarcastic but wouldn't it make sense to at least look into it and see if there is something unusual about the court surface and what's underneath it? Is there enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that there MIGHT be something causing stress to the legs/feet of players or otherwise contributing to injuries?

With all the technology that goes into football fields with drainage, turf, foundation, etc... which we know Duke spared no expense on for Walace Wade/Brooks Field... you would think that Duke would want to explore the latest technology on basketball flooring. For example, there has always been a suspicion about raised floors giving rise to unusual leg injuries, such as the leg break suffered by Kevin Ware in 2013 against Duke in Indianapolis. Cameron does not have a raised floor of course.

DoubleBlue
12-01-2016, 09:11 PM
Good article here...

Facts about floors: Detailing the process behind NBA hardwood courts
http://www.si.com/nba/2015/12/02/nba-hardwood-floors-basketball-court-celtics-nets-magic-nuggets-hornets


The NBA leans on three companies for all its flooring needs—Horner, Robbins and Connor Sports Flooring—and they all source their maple from the same region, even if floor similarities stop there.

The tight grain ensures the hardness of maple, giving it the durability needed to withstand NBA seasons and the 70 or so floor conversions an NBA arena goes through each year. The NBA requires teams to replace the floor every 10 years, although one team has received annual waivers, making their floor last 19 years. The lightness of the wood helps provide contrast against the ball, making it easier for players to discern its movement. Plus, the lighter color on the floor reflects light better and helps brighten arenas.


Below the hardwood comes plenty of company-specific creation as well, with subflooring systems consisting of everything from plywood construction to specialized cushioning systems.

Hamar says Horner NBA floors come with a mix of their proprietary cushioning systems and without. “The cushions or pads on the underside of the floor to enhance resiliency characteristics are sometimes opted for, but not all the time,” he says. Depending on the amount of cushion, the NBA floors absorb energy. Too much absorption means that players don’t get as much energy returned to them, and the less energy returned the harder it is to run, like running on sand or in water. “You don’t want the floor surface to absorb too much of the athlete’s energy,” Hamar says. “Some athletes prefer a harder surface for playing their games so they get more energy return.”

DoubleBlue
12-01-2016, 09:19 PM
The Effect of the Basketball Floor Surface
http://www.livestrong.com/article/450235-the-effect-of-the-surface-of-the-floor-in-basketball/


Surface And Injuries

Players find that softer wood floors are much easier on the legs and maple flooring tends to offer the most give. Temporary wood courts used for NBA games in multi-sport arenas tend to have a great deal of give. An engineered athletic surface using scrap rubber could replicate hardwood performance with even greater safety. Playing on harder surfaces like tile, concrete, asphalt, tartan surfaces and some newer synthetic surfaces with less give can lead to "jumper's knee," or patellar tendinitis. Playing on surfaces with extreme traction, like rubberized floors, can increase ankle sprains, knee sprains, turf toe and other injuries familiar to football players competing on older-style artificial surfaces.

UrinalCake
12-01-2016, 09:23 PM
I can't imagine that playing ONE GAME in Cameron was solely responsible for Bridges getting hurt.

sagegrouse
12-01-2016, 11:14 PM
Good article here...

Facts about floors: Detailing the process behind NBA hardwood courts
http://www.si.com/nba/2015/12/02/nba-hardwood-floors-basketball-court-celtics-nets-magic-nuggets-hornets

Basically, all floors are maple, which has almost no grain and remains light-colored under almost all conditions.

Personal story: my daughter a few years ago owned a house in Baltimore that had maple flooring. It apparently was installed many, many years previously by the owner, whose job was building and selling bowling alleys -- apparently always made of maple. In the case, the maple alley salesman's children trod on maple flooring.

Indoor66
12-02-2016, 08:01 AM
Basically, all floors are maple, which has almost no grain and remains light-colored under almost all conditions.

Personal story: my daughter a few years ago owned a house in Baltimore that had maple flooring. It apparently was installed many, many years previously by the owner, whose job was building and selling bowling alleys -- apparently always made of maple. In the case, the maple alley salesman's children trod on maple flooring.

And... ?

Owen Meany
12-02-2016, 08:51 AM
the only Love-beef with Duke that i know of is that Love was peeved that Singler got co-player of the year for Oregon HS basketball with Love. I don't remember Love ever being in any way pissed at Duke for anything.

I can remember Love complaining that Duke came to Oregon to see Singler deep into the recruitment but did not even stop in to see him. This was at a time when the Singler/Love narrative was out there. It was unusual for Coach K to fly out to Oregon but not visit with a very highly recruited player who was supposedly being recruited by Duke - especially since there was no communication to smooth over what Love perceived as a snub. I always suspected that Singler must have let it be known he did not want to play with Love since it was known Duke was all in on Singler. This seemed even more clear when Love later griped about not winning Mr. Basketball in Oregon (since he was supposedly friends with Singler). Singler went on to end Love's high school career in the state championship game. Its interesting to hear Mr. Summer confirm the Singler/Love dynamic.

I wasn't sure if Duke blew off Love due to Singler because Love's dad was also a cause for concern. He really didn't like his high school coach and was very vocal about it. I believe he even had bumper stickers printed up about firing the coach (just checked online and it was some type of stickers that he stuck all over the gym that said "Fire Shoff). It progressed to the point that he even had a restraining order out on Keven's coach that he could not talk to his son, the media or recruiters. So plenty of reasons to be wary of Love, and Singler turned out to be pretty great.

For the above reasons I never particularly liked Love. Since I never heard anything bad about him in the pros I thought I had misjudged him. But then he was pretty unkind in his statements about Jay Williams and I again have no love for Love.

ChillinDuke
12-02-2016, 09:13 AM
Basically, all floors are maple, which has almost no grain and remains light-colored under almost all conditions.

Personal story: my daughter a few years ago owned a house in Baltimore that had maple flooring. It apparently was installed many, many years previously by the owner, whose job was building and selling bowling alleys -- apparently always made of maple. In the case, the maple alley salesman's children trod on maple flooring.


And... ?

LOL. Sage been hittin' the bottle again. :D

- Chillin

duke96
12-02-2016, 09:21 AM
And... ?

They all got toe injuries??

elvis14
12-02-2016, 10:21 AM
They all got toe injuries??

Is this one of those "write your own ending posts"? Will there be judges and a winner? If so I'm in...right after I get off work and have a few drinks of whatever Sage was having...

Neals384
12-02-2016, 10:27 AM
If it's the play that Bilas commented on (ball screen near sideline), it's hard to say who was at fault. If Chase didn't yell out "Ice!" to notify Luke that a screen was coming, then it was his fault. If he yelled and Luke didn't re-position his body quickly enough to force the ball-handler away from the screen (away from the middle), then it was Luke's fault. If Chase yelled and Luke couldn't hear due to the crowd noise (most likely, imo), then it was neither player's fault and just something that happens sometimes playing in Cameron.

From the way Luke crashed into the screener, either Chase didn't yell "Ice" or Luke didn't hear it.

devildeac
12-02-2016, 10:30 AM
Is this one of those "write your own ending posts"? Will there be judges and a winner? If so I'm in...right after I get off work and have a few drinks of whatever Sage was having...

Raleigh Brewing Company, Trophy Brewing and Pizza or Big Boss Brewing Company would/should work just fine ;) .

I'm available after this weekend of call...

kAzE
12-02-2016, 10:30 AM
I can remember Love complaining that Duke came to Oregon to see Singler deep into the recruitment but did not even stop in to see him. This was at a time when the Singler/Love narrative was out there. It was unusual for Coach K to fly out to Oregon but not visit with a very highly recruited player who was supposedly being recruited by Duke - especially since there was no communication to smooth over what Love perceived as a snub. I always suspected that Singler must have let it be known he did not want to play with Love since it was known Duke was all in on Singler. This seemed even more clear when Love later griped about not winning Mr. Basketball in Oregon (since he was supposedly friends with Singler). Singler went on to end Love's high school career in the state championship game. Its interesting to hear Mr. Summer confirm the Singler/Love dynamic.

I wasn't sure if Duke blew off Love due to Singler because Love's dad was also a cause for concern. He really didn't like his high school coach and was very vocal about it. I believe he even had bumper stickers printed up about firing the coach (just checked online and it was some type of stickers that he stuck all over the gym that said "Fire Shoff). It progressed to the point that he even had a restraining order out on Keven's coach that he could not talk to his son, the media or recruiters. So plenty of reasons to be wary of Love, and Singler turned out to be pretty great.

For the above reasons I never particularly liked Love. Since I never heard anything bad about him in the pros I thought I had misjudged him. But then he was pretty unkind in his statements about Jay Williams and I again have no love for Love.

I'm glad it worked out the way it did . . .

I'm not sure we would have been able to win it all even with Love in his 1 college year (I believe that was the year KU and Memphis played in the championship), although Kyle would have been beat up a lot less his freshman year with Love there to play center. That was back before we were swimming in 1 and done talent, and we needed all 4 years of Kyle. He was a special player and invaluable every year he was with the program.

Neals384
12-02-2016, 10:44 AM
Love and Singler took turns winning the Oregon High School championship, Love's Lake Oswego winning in 2006 and Singler's South Medford winning in 2007. In the 2007 game, Love dominated, scoring 37 in the losing effort. There was no way Kyle could stop his post moves, and he sat much of the second half with 4 fouls. Little brother EJ Singler, then a skinny 6'5" sophomore, then guarded Love and actually did a better job at slowing him down. That South won the game anyway was pretty amazing and a highlight for this Singler fan!

But there's no way the "Player of the Year" award should have been shared - Kevin was clearly at a whole other level.