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View Full Version : ND must vacate wins - raises some questions



SoCalDukeFan
11-22-2016, 03:26 PM
Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/notre-dame-forced-to-vacate-wins-from-2012-and-2013-due-to-ineligible-players-174729997.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma)

If the trainer did coursework for a couple of non athletes would that have made it OK in the eyes of the NCAA?

I guess its bad to have someone do the work for a player but ok to give a grade without requiring any work.

SoCal

Richard Berg
11-22-2016, 04:40 PM
“Zero,” Kelly said when asked if he had any responsibility for the allegations.
“None. Absolutely none.”
So that's what they pay you $1.6M/yr for, huh? To not be responsible for the things your players & staff do?

Eternal Outlaw
11-22-2016, 05:06 PM
Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/notre-dame-forced-to-vacate-wins-from-2012-and-2013-due-to-ineligible-players-174729997.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma)

If the trainer did coursework for a couple of non athletes would that have made it OK in the eyes of the NCAA?

I guess its bad to have someone do the work for a player but ok to give a grade without requiring any work.

SoCal

Didn't McCants admit to that happening too though? Something about car full of guys going to pick up their papers or something?

Bostondevil
11-22-2016, 05:24 PM
I heard this story and thought - the NCAA is so mad at Carolina that they're actually punishing Notre Dame! Cleveland State better keep it's nose squeaky clean.

DukieInKansas
11-22-2016, 05:30 PM
I heard this story and thought - the NCAA is so mad at Carolina that they're actually punishing Notre Dame! Cleveland State better keep it's nose squeaky clean.

I thought about Cleveland State also - but I thought maybe they got a reprieve this time.

NSDukeFan
11-22-2016, 07:04 PM
I heard this story and thought - the NCAA is so mad at Carolina that they're actually punishing Notre Dame! Cleveland State better keep it's nose squeaky clean.


I thought about Cleveland State also - but I thought maybe they got a reprieve this time.

Is the NCAA punishing the rest of the ACC for UNC's transgressions? That's Louisville, Syracuse and Notre Dame. That'll teach you Carolina.

Turk
11-22-2016, 07:25 PM
Vacating wins as a sanction is just dumb. The game was played, the beer was swilled, the tailgate was enjoyed, the refs were criticized, the bets were collected. No player on the losing team is going to tell his kids about the time they "beat" Notre Dame.

I read that ND went ahead and retroactively adjusted grades for the players involved, and kicked the kids who were still on the roster off the team. Now *that* is a penalty with teeth that also seems appropriate to the wrong that was done, but evidently the NCAA decided they had to pile on.

<Cue Bilastrator anti-NCAA rant here.>

Stray Gator
11-22-2016, 08:02 PM
Vacating wins as a sanction is just dumb. The game was played, the beer was swilled, the tailgate was enjoyed, the refs were criticized, the bets were collected. No player on the losing team is going to tell his kids about the time they "beat" Notre Dame.

. . .

<Cue Bilastrator anti-NCAA rant here.>

I beg to differ. If the team that won the game used one or more players who were not properly eligible to compete, then that team did not legitimately "win" anything. The fact that "beer was swilled" and "bets were paid" is rendered immaterial if subsequent inquiry reveals that the result of the contest was invalid -- it just means the beer-swilling and bet-paying was based on an erroneous understanding that is entirely the fault of the team that violated the rules. Unless the win is vacated, the team that used ineligible players would have succeeded in cheating its opponent with impunity; and as a consequence, there would be no disincentive to similar cheating in the future. (IMO, a monetary fine is an inadequate penalty, because the pecuniary benefits of winning will more than offset the cost, not to mention the fact that most teams have fans who will happily contribute to keep the "fruits" of such misconduct.)

Newton_14
11-22-2016, 08:30 PM
Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/notre-dame-forced-to-vacate-wins-from-2012-and-2013-due-to-ineligible-players-174729997.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma)

If the trainer did coursework for a couple of non athletes would that have made it OK in the eyes of the NCAA?

I guess its bad to have someone do the work for a player but ok to give a grade without requiring any work.

SoCal
I thought the NCAA can no longer govern the academic side. Sounds like a SACS issue to me as the NCAA doesn't have authority to penalize a school for an academic issue, according to the most recent case we have seen...

-jk
11-22-2016, 08:58 PM
I thought the NCAA can no longer govern the academic side. Sounds like a SACS issue to me as the NCAA doesn't have authority to penalize a school for an academic issue, according to the most recent case we have seen...

The NCAA can't deem academics inadequate, but if an ethical school self-reports, the NCAA can - and must - act.

-jk

OldPhiKap
11-22-2016, 09:01 PM
The NCAA can't deem academics inadequate, but if an ethical school self-reports, the NCAA can - and must - act.

-jk

Exactly.

So, if you are Notre Dame and you do what you are supposed to do, you get punished.

If you are Carolina and you call your dung daisies, the NCAA has to let you do it.

It's a fair cop.

-jk
11-22-2016, 09:04 PM
Exactly.

So, if you are Notre Dame and you do what you are supposed to do, you get punished.

If you are Carolina and you call your dung daisies, the NCAA has to let you do it.

It's a fair cop.

Yeah. They're gonna skate. The NCAA doesn't have the - whatever it takes - to call on the SACS and Weinstein reports to hold them accountable.

-jk

OldPhiKap
11-22-2016, 09:08 PM
Yeah. They're gonna skate. The NCAA doesn't have the - whatever it takes - to call on the SACS and Weinstein reports to hold them accountable.

-jk

I truly hope we are both very wrong.

MaxAMillion
11-22-2016, 09:22 PM
Exactly.

So, if you are Notre Dame and you do what you are supposed to do, you get punished.

If you are Carolina and you call your dung daisies, the NCAA has to let you do it.

It's a fair cop.

That is the real issue. ND self reports and kicks the kids out and they get a significant punishment. UNC still nothing. Why self report something like this? Much easier to say nothing.

Papa John
11-22-2016, 10:15 PM
Exactly.

So, if you are Notre Dame and you do what you are supposed to do, you get punished.

If you are Carolina and you call your dung daisies, the NCAA has to let you do it.

It's a fair cop.

Exactly... And this is the NCAA's conundrum... They've painted themselves into the proverbial corner here—it's all laid out in black-and-white right now. They either hammer UNC, or sign their notice of dissolution. I don't really think there's any middle ground at this point. ND ain't Cleveland State... They've consciously chosen to tar and feather a program that not only was completely cooperative, but is one of the top programs in terms of APR and ethics, and is among the premier names [despite the past 3 decades] in major college athletics [i.e., college football, which (let's face it) really drives the bus]... If they let UNC skate, then they will have Notre Dame and USC (for those unaware, that's akin to Duke and UNC; UVa and VaTech; Michigan and Ohio St.; etc.) leading the angry mob of pitchfork/torch-bearing universities marching to burn down the NCAA... At this point, I find it hard to believe that UNC skates unscathed—they have to get hammered in some fashion now... Anything less and the NCAA might as well voluntarily dissolve...

moonpie23
11-22-2016, 10:30 PM
oh no.....vacating wins DOES have teeth.......


if they vacate the titles at the dome, there will be a massive suicide watch for that fan base, because those title are absolutely, positively, THE most important things to that institution....

sagegrouse
11-22-2016, 11:37 PM
oh no....vacating wins DOES have teeth....


if they vacate the titles at the dome, there will be a massive suicide watch for that fan base, because those title are absolutely, positively, THE most important things to that institution...

I expect that Bubba and Ol' Roy are beginning to get the shakes. The Notre Dame penalties are chilling for UNC. I mean, the NCAA has a far higher regard for Notre Dame than it does for North Carolina, and the UNC violations are incomparably greater, in that it was a concerted effort to keep hundreds of players eligible through fraudulent methods. Notre Dame, on the other hand, had eight players accept improper assistance from a student manager, who was apparently acting on her own.

gep
11-22-2016, 11:44 PM
I only follow this lightly. But I heard/read that the reason that the NCAA penalized ND was because the academic "fraud" was conducted by athletic dept employees. Whereas, the unc academic "fraud" was conducted by the institution (school)... so therefore out of the NCAA's jurisdiction. Sad... isn't' academic "fraud" still academic "fraud":confused:

WiJoe
11-23-2016, 12:13 AM
I expect that Bubba and Ol' Roy are beginning to get the shakes. The Notre Dame penalties are chilling for UNC. I mean, the NCAA has a far higher regard for Notre Dame than it does for North Carolina, and the UNC violations are incomparably greater, in that it was a concerted effort to keep hundreds of players eligible through fraudulent methods. Notre Dame, on the other hand, had eight players accept improper assistance from a student manager, who was apparently acting on her own.

bubba and roy are too arrogant to get the shakes.

sagegrouse
11-23-2016, 12:25 AM
I only follow this lightly. But I heard/read that the reason that the NCAA penalized ND was because the academic "fraud" was conducted by athletic dept employees. Whereas, the unc academic "fraud" was conducted by the institution (school)... so therefore out of the NCAA's jurisdiction. Sad... isn't' academic "fraud" still academic "fraud":confused:

Uh,... this is UNC's view of the universe. It ain't clear that the NCAA is buying it.

Bostondevil
11-23-2016, 12:34 AM
I heard this story and thought - the NCAA is so mad at Carolina that they're actually punishing Notre Dame! Cleveland State better keep it's nose squeaky clean.

Argh!! Grammar police on my own post!! Sometimes I make that mistake. I usually proofread better. Can't change it and it's driving me crazy!!!!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-23-2016, 04:13 AM
Argh!! Grammar police on my own post!! Sometimes I make that mistake. I usually proofread better. Can't change it and it's driving me crazy!!!!

Meh, its no big deal.

NSDukeFan
11-23-2016, 04:54 AM
Meh, its no big deal.

Their are some who think it is.

YmoBeThere
11-23-2016, 06:32 AM
Their are some who think it is.

There are?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-23-2016, 07:13 AM
There are?

Yeah, but that's a whole nother topic.

OldPhiKap
11-23-2016, 07:19 AM
I expect that Bubba and Ol' Roy are beginning to get the shakes. The Notre Dame penalties are chilling for UNC. I mean, the NCAA has a far higher regard for Notre Dame than it does for North Carolina, and the UNC violations are incomparably greater, in that it was a concerted effort to keep hundreds of players eligible through fraudulent methods. Notre Dame, on the other hand, had eight players accept improper assistance from a student manager, who was apparently acting on her own.

I'll take this time to point out that Melissa Conboy, Deputy Director of Athletics at Notre Dame, is on the NCAA infractions committee. While she surely recused herself here, it will be a measuring stick for her when dealing with the holes.

Burn in Hell you hypocritical pus-sucking nimrods.

moonpie23
11-23-2016, 07:44 AM
Burn in Hell you hypocritical pus-sucking nimrods.

You must spread some Comments around before commenting on OldPhiKap again.

BD80
11-23-2016, 07:52 AM
I expect that Bubba and Ol' Roy are beginning to get the shakes. ...

They don't understand. Ignorance is bliss.


There are?

Their are.

Indoor66
11-23-2016, 08:15 AM
The Hammer of Thor has great impact when it lands. Be VERY wary,unc.

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-23-2016, 08:35 AM
Burn in Hell you hypocritical pus-sucking nimrods.
OPK, this is incredibly rude... to hypocritical pus-sucking nimrods everywhere.

sagegrouse
11-23-2016, 08:42 AM
Argh!! Grammar police on my own post!! Sometimes I make that mistake. I usually proofread better. Can't change it and it's driving me crazy!!!!

Actually, you correctly used an "it's" in the sentence, but in the wrong place -- shoulda been used instead of "they're" -- NCAA is a singular noun in American English. Collective nouns seem to be plural in Britain ("The Gouvernment are....").

OldPhiKap
11-23-2016, 09:02 AM
OPK, this is incredibly rude... to hypocritical pus-sucking nimrods everywhere.

True. Apologies to Congress.

devildeac
11-23-2016, 10:38 AM
I'll take this time to point out that Melissa Conboy, Deputy Director of Athletics at Notre Dame, is on the NCAA infractions committee. While she surely recused herself here, it will be a measuring stick for her when dealing with the holes.

Burn in Hell you hypocritical pus-sucking nimrods.

Damn, there either needs to be a 5th carving on Mount Hatemore or someone is going to have to relinquish their spot.

OldPhiKap
11-23-2016, 10:47 AM
Damn, there either needs to be a 5th carving on Mount Hatemore or someone is going to have to relinquish their spot.

I am a freestanding monument to UNC hatred. Like the unfinished monument to Crazy Horse in the Black Mountains, Southwest-ish (IIRC) of Mt. Rushmore.

swood1000
11-23-2016, 01:34 PM
Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/notre-dame-forced-to-vacate-wins-from-2012-and-2013-due-to-ineligible-players-174729997.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma)

If the trainer did coursework for a couple of non athletes would that have made it OK in the eyes of the NCAA?

I guess its bad to have someone do the work for a player but ok to give a grade without requiring any work.

SoCal
I thought the NCAA can no longer govern the academic side. Sounds like a SACS issue to me as the NCAA doesn't have authority to penalize a school for an academic issue, according to the most recent case we have seen...

Under the new rules (http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/di-council-adopts-academic-integrity-proposal?sf23996574=1), schools are required to have written policies and procedures regarding academic misconduct. It's an infraction if those procedures are violated and (a) an institutional staff member or coach was involved, or (b) there was a falsification of the transcript or an erroneous declaration of eligibility. If the conduct does not violate the policies and procedures it's still a violation if there is impermissible academic assistance and certain conditions are met.

Under the new rules if UNC's written policies were violated by the fake classes then it would be a violation. Otherwise, the NCAA is still not going to charge that classes were too easy.

Turk
11-23-2016, 03:30 PM
True. Apologies to Congress.

And also the NCAA.

Tom B.
11-23-2016, 03:51 PM
Collective nouns seem to be plural in Britain ("The Gouvernment are...").

That's one thing I just can't get used to when watching a British sports program.

"Chelsea are first in the Premier League standings." Um....wha-?

NSDukeFan
11-23-2016, 08:18 PM
That's one thing I just can't get used to when watching a British sports program.

"Chelsea are first in the Premier League standings." Um...wha-?

No kidding, it should be ManU.

OldPhiKap
11-23-2016, 08:25 PM
That's one thing I just can't get used to when watching a British sports program.

"Chelsea are first in the Premier League standings." Um...wha-?


No kidding, it should be ManU.

Shouldn't it be MenU?

NSDukeFan
11-23-2016, 09:59 PM
Shouldn't it be MenU?

If you were in the ymmmm, food thread.

devildeac
11-23-2016, 10:13 PM
Shouldn't it be MenU?

Hey, leave sean may out of this discussion.

madscavenger
11-24-2016, 01:39 AM
It used to be MenU, but then all but one vacated the team.

Newton_14
11-25-2016, 07:56 AM
Damn, there either needs to be a 5th carving on Mount Hatemore or someone is going to have to relinquish their spot.
I think we need a recount anyway! Where is my lawyer to file an official complaint? Oh yeah almost forgot, my lawyer ran against me and we both lost. (OldPhiKap) :mad:

devildeac
11-25-2016, 09:07 AM
I think we need a recount anyway! Where is my lawyer to file an official complaint? Oh yeah almost forgot, my lawyer ran against me and we both lost. (OldPhiKap) :mad:

You'd have to verify there were no voters who were deceased, felons, casting multiple ballots, or, any/all of the above. :rolleyes:

OldPhiKap
11-25-2016, 09:12 AM
I think we need a recount anyway! Where is my lawyer to file an official complaint? Oh yeah almost forgot, my lawyer ran against me and we both lost. (OldPhiKap) :mad:


You'd have to verify there were no voters who were deceased, felons, casting multiple ballots, or, any/all of the above. :rolleyes:

Are you disqualified from running if you are a felon? Asking, you know, for a friend.

Newton_14
11-25-2016, 09:56 AM
You'd have to verify there were no voters who were deceased, felons, casting multiple ballots, or, any/all of the above. :rolleyes: This is one of those "Just Win Baby" cases. Given they cheated for 20+ years to make my hatred for them even worse, there is no shame in getting your head on Mt Hatemore using any method possible. I think my dog and 3 cats should have been able to cast their ballots for me too...


Are you disqualified from running if you are a felon? Asking, you know, for a friend. I was gonna ask the same question, um, you know, like you, um, for a friend....:rolleyes:

BD80
11-25-2016, 01:43 PM
Are you disqualified from running if you are a felon? Asking, you know, for a friend.


... I was gonna ask the same question, um, you know, like you, um, for a friend...:rolleyes:

I'd make a similar query, but nobody would believe I have a friend ...

jv001
11-25-2016, 01:51 PM
Damn, there either needs to be a 5th carving on Mount Hatemore or someone is going to have to relinquish their spot.

I'm of the opinion that we need a top ten for 9F. I can't think of another sport team of any kind that I dislike more than the cheats. GoDuke!

madscavenger
11-25-2016, 02:38 PM
I'd make a similar query, but nobody would believe I have a friend ...

If you didn't have a friend, most likely you're a monk. But hmmm, Felonius Monk; that won't work.

Newton_14
11-26-2016, 12:13 AM
I'm of the opinion that we need a top ten for 9F. I can't think of another sport team of any kind that I dislike more than the cheats. GoDuke!

Top 10 9F'ers poll sounds good to me...

wsb3
11-28-2016, 10:42 AM
If this has been posted please forgive me..Article contains thoughts that I am confident several of us have had.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/25/column-irish-face-ncaa-wrath-while-unc-remains-on-/

JasonEvans
11-28-2016, 02:17 PM
If this has been posted please forgive me..Article contains thoughts that I am confident several of us have had.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/25/column-irish-face-ncaa-wrath-while-unc-remains-on-/

Good article from AP columnist Paul Newberry, whose work gets sent all over the country and is likely published in scores of newspapers.

Imagine how outraged he will be when the NCAA slaps the Carolina women's hoops program on the wrist and has absolutely nothing to say about football or basketball because the NCAA is not in position to judge whether academic fraud occurred or not.

-Jason "I do still hold out hope that the COI will do what is right and strip hundreds of wins while also punishing several sports teams going forward" Evans

GGLC
11-28-2016, 02:30 PM
-Jason "I do still hold out hope that the COI will do what is right and strip hundreds of wins while also punishing several sports teams going forward" Evans

Remember that email last week where I said I admired your optimism? Well, that goes triple for this. :D