Lawsuit against NCAA with allegations against Dukie Chris Collins

[JasonEvans]

I'm not sure how this story slipped under our radar a couple days ago but a Northwestern basketball player has filed a lawsuit challenging the NCAA's transfer rules (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/ct-northwestern-lawsuit-basketball-spt-1116-20161115-story.html). In essence, he is arguing that he should be allowed to transfer and become immediately eligible. Ummmm, that would be a really big deal.

Not nearly as important, but no less noteworthy are some terrible allegations against NW head coach Chris Collins.


Vassar alleges that Collins berated him in front of teammates, saying he "sucked" at basketball, and that his transfer was the result of "a campaign of harassment, pressure, and deception."

Vassar alleges Northwestern put him in an "internship" under which he did janitorial work and asked about his willingness to accept a cash payment "to go away."

After a game in February 2015, Vassar alleges that Collins berated him in the locker room, saying he had a bad attitude, "didn't do (squat)" when he was in the game and told him he should not expect to play anymore. One month later, Vassar alleges, NU coaches called and texted him repeatedly, urging him to transfer.

So, this looks bad for Collins. He has had a lot of transfers out of the program during his 3 years at Northwestern. This kid would be the 4th transfer. Also, 2 walk-ons have quit the team. That's more than you would like to see.

Of course, as I mentioned at the top, the most important part of this story is the legal ramifications. If a judge makes it ok for kids to transfer right away, it will be open season. You could see kids moving schools mid-season.

-Jason "I'm betting Coach Cal at Kentucky is salivating at the nefarious games he could play with a rule like this" Evans

[Doria]

While this does sound (and if true, probably is) bad, I wouldn't expect a kid suing to transfer uh, for cause, to allege he was treated well. You're right, though, that the really interesting part is in how it affects the rules going forward. Personally, I am really against a lot if the free market trends in college players, including transfers of almost all varieties.

[Wander]

Personally, I am really against a lot if the free market trends in college players, including transfers of almost all varieties.

I'm pretty against paying players, but I think we should probably just get rid of all transfer restrictions. It's ridiculous that the NCAA has to make decisions about whether having a sick grandmother counts as a good enough reason to not lose a year of eligibility. The easiest way out of this is just: anyone can transfer wherever they want, and play the next season (not the same season like JE is scared of). Period. It might have some downsides, but IMO that's more than balanced out by having a consistent set of rules for everyone.

[CameronBornAndBred]

If true, then it shouldn't be alleged. If the coaches texted him to transfer, repeatedly, it would seem to have been in his best interest (future lawsuit or not) to not delete those texts. It would help his appeal to the NCAA for immediate playing eligibility.

[Doria]

I'm pretty against paying players, but I think we should probably just get rid of all transfer restrictions. It's ridiculous that the NCAA has to make decisions about whether having a sick grandmother counts as a good enough reason to not lose a year of eligibility. The easiest way out of this is just: anyone can transfer wherever they want, and play the next season (not the same season like JE is scared of). Period. It might have some downsides, but IMO that's more than balanced out by having a consistent set of rules for everyone.

Haha, well, I can see that at the margins you get silly arguments about whether one's grandmother is sick enough, but I'm not sure the majority of transfers break down into those categories. I'm not basing this in any knowledge, though, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm against paying players, as well, but I think I said in some random thread last year that I'd be fine with making a "sports curriculum" of some kind, whereby players would get some credit for team activities, with the rest earned in courses designed to help them transition into a sports-related field after graduation; many already existent courses could be used for credit (e.g., sports medicine, sports business/admin, sports marketing, etc.). I think this would be a way of actually helping players earn degrees using the copious amounts of time spent for sports, while also working toward an actual career if they want to stay in a sports-related field, as I'm sure many non-pro prospects might like to do.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'm pretty against paying players, but I think we should probably just get rid of all transfer restrictions.

Transfer restrictions as far as where a player is allowed to go are absurd. If you advocated letting players play immediately - that seems like a huge mistake. It would lead to complete meyhem in the off-season, players leveraging for more playing time with coaches, and all sorts of shenanigans that they don't even have to deal with at the professional level.

Yes, a kid ought not have to "prove" how sick grandma is to move closer to home. But a kid also can't be allowed to stew after being benched and jump to another school.

[flyingdutchdevil]

If true, then it shouldn't be alleged. If the coaches texted him to transfer, repeatedly, it would seem to have been in his best interest (future lawsuit or not) to not delete those texts. It would help his appeal to the NCAA for immediate playing eligibility.

Is berating the kid and telling him he sucks in front of his peers in the kid's best interest as well?

[English]

Is berating the kid and telling him he sucks in front of his peers in the kid's best interest as well?

IANA NCAA compliance officer, but curious if the NCAA has well-defined guidelines for what is inappropriate coaching behavior with respect to addressing a student-athlete. It seems obvious that a coach berating an athlete on his team is counter-productive, it's also a pretty common coaching style to be abrasive, even demeaning. Certainly there are degrees of this (and it's mostly considered an "old school" coaching style that has lost favor), and again, I'm not advocating that it's the right way, but is it the NCAA's job to dictate that a coach can't yell at a player in front of his teammates? Can a coach threaten to bench his player(s)? Actually bench his players?

This is absolutely not meant to be snarky, I'm legitimately curious if this is defined territory as grounds for "for-cause" transfer. I guess, if nothing else, we'll soon find out.

[sagegrouse]

With respect to Chris Collins' alleged "abuse" of a player, I say, "Piffle." I don't see these as "terrible allegations," especially when they have been fine-tuned by the ex-players' attorney. Coach K would probably have used stronger language.

[flyingdutchdevil]

With respect to Chris Collins' alleged "abuse" of a player, I say, "Piffle." I don't see these as "terrible allegations," especially when they have been fine-tuned by the ex-players' attorney. Coach K would probably have used stronger language.

Sure, if this was the 1980s and Coach Knight was at the top of his game. But, times have changed, and you can't treat players today like you could in the past. Whether this is right or wrong is clearly up to your preference (and I assume it's generational), but you cannot debate that coaches today are under the microscope for this sort of thing.

[Bob Green]

Is berating the kid and telling him he sucks in front of his peers in the kid's best interest as well?

It is a matter of leadership style. I've always subscribed to the "praise in public / criticize in private" style; however, I can assure you public berating is commonplace in the military. I took my fair share of public butt chewing's - many deserved, many not. Some leaders consider public berating to be a critical element of team building.

[BD80]

With respect to Chris Collins' alleged "abuse" of a player, I say, "Piffle." I don't see these as "terrible allegations," especially when they have been fine-tuned by the ex-players' attorney. Coach K would probably have used stronger language.

Count III of the complaint seeks specific performance, that Chris and the entire coaching staff present him with a participation trophy and then take him out for pizza and ice cream.

[BD80]

Another thought: What coach in this world is going to want this kid playing on his team? He sued his coach for being told that he had a "bad attitude" and "didn't do squat in the game."

Maybe ol' roy can develop him. I'd gladly waive the transfer year to make that happen.

[sagegrouse]

Sure, if this was the 1980s and Coach Knight was at the top of his game. But, times have changed, and you can't treat players today like you could in the past. Whether this is right or wrong is clearly up to your preference (and I assume it's generational), but you cannot debate that coaches today are under the microscope for this sort of thing.

If those two incidents are all he has after a full year in the program, I still say "Piffle!" There are also sorts of motivation ploys used by coaches and some of them involve public scolding. Who knows what sorts of sympathetic counseling he received on other occasions?

In favor of the defense is the record of Mr. Vassar: four high schools in four years and then -- keeping his trend intact -- one year at Northwestern. Also, the lawsuit is against the NCAA and not Northwestern or Chris.

Besides, this is a Duke board and worthies like Chris Collins are gonna be defended as long as I am around here. [Wait! Let me check my pulse. Hmmm....] Anyone else here want to take over the defense team?

Kindly,
Sage

[OldPhiKap]

I am not terribly concerned about the allegations of a single player that obviously does not get along with the coach.

I would be more concerned, however, if there is a pattern of such behavior. Absent evidence of that, though, I don't see this as much of a story.

And whatever he said, I'm sure that K said worse. I remember a discussion with Dan Meagher once about young Coach K's "motivational talks." Yikes.

[Bluedog]

I'm pretty against paying players, but I think we should probably just get rid of all transfer restrictions. It's ridiculous that the NCAA has to make decisions about whether having a sick grandmother counts as a good enough reason to not lose a year of eligibility. The easiest way out of this is just: anyone can transfer wherever they want, and play the next season (not the same season like JE is scared of). Period. It might have some downsides, but IMO that's more than balanced out by having a consistent set of rules for everyone.


Haha, well, I can see that at the margins you get silly arguments about whether one's grandmother is sick enough, but I'm not sure the majority of transfers break down into those categories. I'm not basing this in any knowledge, though, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

NCAA changed their rules and sick grandmothers do not allow you to play immediately. Now the ONLY reason you can use to not sit out is if you've already graduated and are attending a graduate program at a new university (that is not offered at your previous university). I agree that not required the sit out year would open up a HUGE "free agent" market, which is already decently large considering the number of transfers. Would not like that change at all. However, I agree with those that say students should be allowed to transfer to any school of their choosing -- ridiculous that the school/coach can decide what restrictions to put on them. Coach K has actually been the most lax about this of probably any coach (to his credit) -- Silent G went to Syracuse when they were going to be in the ACC shortly, etc.

[Skydog]

"On or about February 3, 2015, after a game, head coach Chris Collins publicly berated Johnnie in the locker room, stating that Johnnie “sucked” at basketball, had a bad attitude, didn’t do 'shxx’ when Johnnie was in the game, and should expect not to play anymore. Several of Johnnie’s teammates approached him afterwards and told him that Coach Collins’ statements were completed uncalled for."

I guess Chris was being hard on him if he said that he didn't do squat in that particular game since he only played 1 minute and took 1 shot (missed). Vassar in fact barely played all season - he had 2 minutes of total playing time in the six prior games for example. I of course don't know what all really happened but Vassar did have this to say when he announced his transfer March 30:
"I've loved my time at Northwestern University but have arrived at the very difficult point of transferring. … I will miss my team, our coaching staff, and the stellar academics NU offers. Yet I know this transition is best for me as I look forward to attending a school where I can play a more integral role on the court. … NU has helped me grow tremendously as a student and athlete. … Thank you again to Coach Collins. … I've enjoyed all the memories and time spent here!"

I imagine the bigger question would be if some of the coaching staff did underhanded things the next year to pressure him to give up his guaranteed 4-year scholarship so it would be available for incoming players.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Is berating the kid and telling him he sucks in front of his peers in the kid's best interest as well?

Wanna guess how many times K has told a kid "FU"? Is that berating, or is that encouraging him to be better? I don't know, but Collins learned his craft from one (two) of the best. My guess is that there is some emulation.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Wanna guess how many times K has told a kid "FU"? Is that berating, or is that encouraging him to be better? I don't know, but Collins learned his craft from one (two) of the best. My guess is that there is some emulation.

If you have time: https://art19.com/shows/vertical-jj-redick/episodes/ab7cee6c-a90d-4a42-b050-7e46d654c711

Context: Bilas talks to JJ about how Coach K watched film with the team and saw Mason Plumlee (I think) do something really dumb. Bilas expected Coach K to go off on MP2. Instead, Coach K was calm and didn't swear nor berate Plumlee. These stories aren't rare for Coach K, a Coach celebrated for his ability to change. And Coach K has changed with the times, unlike his mentor.

I for one am all about tough love in sports. But if you deliberately embarrass or berate a player, that's a different story. And that's where I think an AD should/would investigate. I don't care if he's a celebrated ex-Duke assistant coach or a Kentucky head coach with a history of shady tactics, look into it. And if it's a reoccurring problem, fix it.

[Jeffrey]

Coach K would probably have used stronger language.

Probably?

[Jeffrey]

Besides, this is a Duke board and worthies like Chris Collins are gonna be defended as long as I am around here. [Wait! Let me check my pulse. Hmmm...] Anyone else here want to take over the defense team?


Sure.... how many times have former Duke players said these, or similar, things about Collins? It's kind of hard to imagine Chris is a completely different person than the one who spent considerable time coaching at Duke.

[Ultrarunner]

Is berating the kid and telling him he sucks in front of his peers in the kid's best interest as well?

I tend to treat such allegations as equivalent to divorce proceedings. A few proceed amicably. Some are resolved with tremendous acrimony and blatant lies on both side. Until I have unequivocal proof of egregious wrong-doing, it's hearsay and posturing.

If the young man has texts, produce them. That would go a very long way to substantiating his claims.

I've become more cynical as I have gotten older.

[Ultrarunner]

[I]"On or about February 3, 2015, after a game, head coach Chris Collins publicly berated Johnnie in the locker room, stating that Johnnie “sucked” at basketball, had a bad attitude, didn’t do 'shxx’ when Johnnie was in the game, and should expect not to play anymore. Several of Johnnie’s teammates approached him afterwards and told him that Coach Collins’ statements were completed uncalled for."


I imagine the bigger question would be if some of the coaching staff did underhanded things the next year to pressure him to give up his guaranteed 4-year scholarship so it would be available for incoming players.

Scholarships are granted one season at a time. There is no reason to pressure him to give up the scholly - they could just not renew it. I don't agree with the practice in light of transfer rules that restrict the athlete more than the institution, but NW did not have to consider his scholarship in recruiting. They could treat it as open and communicate the open slot to potential recruits.

[-jk]

Scholarships are granted one season at a time. There is no reason to pressure him to give up the scholly - they could just not renew it. I don't agree with the practice in light of transfer rules that restrict the athlete more than the institution, but NW did not have to consider his scholarship in recruiting. They could treat it as open and communicate the open slot to potential recruits.

I think the bigger whatever has 4 year guarantees.

-jk

[Ultrarunner]

I think the bigger whatever has 4 year guarantees.

-jk

I stand corrected. Thank you!

[Newton_14]

It is a matter of leadership style. I've always subscribed to the "praise in public / criticize in private" style; however, I can assure you public berating is commonplace in the military. I took my fair share of public butt chewing's - many deserved, many not. Some leaders consider public berating to be a critical element of team building.

Sports are not for the tender hearted or the meek. Anyone that has competed in school ball and higher in any sport knows this. K yells at players all the time during timeouts, and you can bet it happens in practices too. As does every other coach in America. Like it or not, it makes a man out of you, and makes one a very disciplined person.

[ipatent]

Sports are not for the tender hearted or the meek. Anyone that has competed in school ball and higher in any sport knows this. K yells at players all the time during timeouts, and you can bet it happens in practices too. As does every other coach in America. Like it or not, it makes a man out of you, and makes one a very disciplined person.

One of the nice things about having been a swimmer is that you can't really hear the coach most of the time during practice. :)

[Skydog]

This has nothing to do with Collins but I just want to point out that there is a difference between a coach yelling at an athlete (even with expletives) to help him improve and a coach being abusive. It's like porn vs erotic art - hard to legally define the difference but we all recognize it when we see it.

[bob blue devil]

Sports are not for the tender hearted or the meek. Anyone that has competed in school ball and higher in any sport knows this. K yells at players all the time during timeouts, and you can bet it happens in practices too. As does every other coach in America. Like it or not, it makes a man out of you, and makes one a very disciplined person.

does this apply only to the boys? in general, how would this be received if the student athlete in question was a female?

[Newton_14]

does this apply only to the boys? in general, how would this be received if the student athlete in question was a female?
That I cannot answer sorry. Zero experience in that space.

I suspect our female athletes on the board can answer though....

[JasonEvans]

A few points...

First of all, unless the kid has a truly godawful lawyer, he clearly has texts that show something. There's just no way the lawyer puts texts into a complaint and a press release without having any texts to show. There's something there. Who knows what it will show.

It is worth noting that at least one article I read said this kid had gone to 4 different high schools. So, his wander lust is well documented. The fact that he wants to transfer is hardly a shock.

I have no doubt that Collins may have used salty language. Whether it rises to the level of abuse is not something any of us could come close to judging if we were not there.

Lastly, what matters here is not Collins or even the player. As I stated, the reason this is significant is that it may be a chance for the courts to strike down the transfer rules. The NCAA has not done well in the courts lately and this could be the first step in another big loss. That's why I linked it. I think we are having trouble seeing the forest for the trees with the discussion about Chirs Collins and colorful language.

-Jason "I love seeing the courts fix what the NCAA has screwed up -- but unlimited transfers (in season) would be really problematic. Make it after the school year has ended, please" Evans

[ipatent]

Anyone know if a player can transfer and not sit out a year if he never accepted a scholly?

[Furniture]

It is a matter of leadership style. I've always subscribed to the "praise in public / criticize in private" style; however, I can assure you public berating is commonplace in the military. I took my fair share of public butt chewing's - many deserved, many not. Some leaders consider public berating to be a critical element of team building.

Never heard of it like that 'praise in public/criticize in private' but I completely agree! I will use this phrase a lot from now on!

[UrinalCake]

I imagine the bigger question would be if some of the coaching staff did underhanded things the next year to pressure him to give up his guaranteed 4-year scholarship so it would be available for incoming players.

I read a different article discussing this story, and from that source the player did allege that NW took away his scholarship and put him on an academic scholarship instead so that they could use his athletic scholarship for another incoming player. The way I understood it, that was sort of the basis for his lawsuit, he claims they took away his scholarship and so therefore he shouldn't be bound to it and thus shouldn't have to abide by the transfer rules that require him to sit a year.

I don't think his lawsuit has much of a chance of winning, it sounds more like he's upset and trying to get his story out in the public and maybe hurt NW in the process. As for why the transfer rule exists to begin with, imagine if there was no rule requiring players to sit a year. If that were the case, we would see hundreds and hundreds of transfers every year. Every player who was even the slightest bit unhappy with his team would transfer. Players would make demands of their coaches and threaten to transfer if they aren't met. Coaches would be way more likely to poach players off of other teams. The number of transfers that happen across college basketball is already staggeringly high, it would be even more so without the rule.

So I believe in the spirit of the rule. The "sick grandmother" comment made by Mtn. Devil was clearly a reference to Elliot Williams, who used that as an excuse to transfer to Memphis and then later revealed that he was actually just unhappy with his on-the-court role at Duke and wanted to get away but didn't want to sit. So there are always ways to get around the rules, but that doesn't mean we should just get rid of the rules altogether.

[sagegrouse]

Hey, I'm all for the players but there is a reason for the "one-year sit-out." In the wild and woolly days of college football in the 1920's, players would switch teams and schools in the MIDDLE of the season. It was open season on getting players any time, any place. So, without a one year sit-out, imagine if USC or Alabama wanted a player currently playing for Duke and could use him the next season. There would be some degree of chaos, I fear.

[Steven43]

Is berating the kid and telling him he sucks in front of his peers in the kid's best interest as well?

Have we really gotten to the point where a college coach is said to be abusive it he tells a player that he 'sucks' and has a bad attitude? I would be willing to bet that is standard coach speak for the majority of college coaches. Too many young men today are overly sensitive and easily offended.

[Pghdukie]

If a player sucks, and has a bad attitude - just don't play him ! He'll transfer out anyway. Not to be critical of Collins, but why did he recruit this student/athlete in the first place ?

[weezie]

Have we really gotten to the point where a college coach is said to be abusive it he tells a player that he 'sucks' and has a bad attitude? I would be willing to bet that is standard coach speak for the majority of college coaches. Too many young men today are overly sensitive and easily offended.

Correction, "too many humans..."

[Indoor66]

Snowflakes of the World unite.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

So I believe in the spirit of the rule. The "sick grandmother" comment made by Mtn. Devil was clearly a reference to Elliot Williams, who used that as an excuse to transfer to Memphis and then later revealed that he was actually just unhappy with his on-the-court role at Duke and wanted to get away but didn't want to sit. So there are always ways to get around the rules, but that doesn't mean we should just get rid of the rules altogether.
Is that true about ewill? Never heard that before.

[sagegrouse]

Is that true about ewill? Never heard that before.

I thought EWill's unhappiness was the real reason he transferred. Heck, Duke -- once it realized he was leaving -- may have helped him with the excuse, in order to have a "positive outcome" for his time here. It would have been good to keep EWill around another year; think how great the 2010 team could have been. :p

[cato]

Is that true about ewill? Never heard that before.

Elliot Williams transferred to be closer to his mother, who had cancer. He received Duke's support. His mother recovered for a while, which must have been a blessing. She has since passed away.

I am thankful for Elliot's contributions to the program, and am sorry for his loss.

[UrinalCake]

Elliot Williams transferred to be closer to his mother, who had cancer. He received Duke's support. His mother recovered for a while, which must have been a blessing. She has since passed away.

When Williams transferred, that was the story that I read and believed. But just this past summer, when news of Thornton's transfer came out and much discussion ensued, some more information came out about EWill:

"But Williams was still unhappy with his role. In an off-season meeting, he demanded an increased offensive role in 2010. K responded by helping facilitate his transfer to hometown Memphis, where "he could be close to his ailing grandmother."

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2016/4/11/11405612/on-derryck-thorntons-departure

Featherston later corrected himself by stating it was Williams's mother, not his grandmother. At any rate, this was the first time I had heard this, but apparently other people in the know were aware of this a long time ago.

[cato]

When Williams transferred, that was the story that I read and believed. But just this past summer, when news of Thornton's transfer came out and much discussion ensued, some more information came out about EWill:

"But Williams was still unhappy with his role. In an off-season meeting, he demanded an increased offensive role in 2010. K responded by helping facilitate his transfer to hometown Memphis, where "he could be close to his ailing grandmother."

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2016/4/11/11405612/on-derryck-thorntons-departure

Featherston later corrected himself by stating it was Williams's mother, not his grandmother. At any rate, this was the first time I had heard this, but apparently other people in the know were aware of this a long time ago.


None of that changes the fact that Elliot Williams' mother actually died of cancer. I think Al was wrong to repeat the rumors of other motives, and that this topic should be dropped out of respect for a young man who left Duke with the public support of the program and whose mother passed away.

I am happy to have just celebrated my 41st birthday with both parents still alive.

[Jeffrey]

Have we really gotten to the point where a college coach is said to be abusive it he tells a player that he 'sucks' and has a bad attitude?

No, the U.S. legal system and media probably need another decade to make that happen.

[Skydog]

Have we really gotten to the point where a college coach is said to be abusive it he tells a player that he 'sucks' and has a bad attitude? I would be willing to bet that is standard coach speak for the majority of college coaches. Too many young men today are overly sensitive and easily offended.

I think the answer to your question is no, we haven't gotten to that point. And you give the evidence that we aren't there yourself. If the public or institutions had gotten to that point then Coach K and the majority of NCAA b-ball coaches would have been fired years ago. The very rare cases where a coach is actually found guilty of abuse go miles and miles past telling the player he/she sucks/has a bad attitude. I saw some video of the Rutgers coach (Mike Rice) who did lose his job years ago for abusing his players - I don't think a parent in the country would want to see their kids endure that guys anger control issues. He was repeatedly shoving them, kicking them, putting his hands to their throats, throwing balls at their heads when they weren't looking, going on tirades calling them faggxts and so on. It was so bad his own assistant coach went to the AD and complained. Still nothing was done. Months after the repeated complaints the AD saw a video of him doing this stuff so he gave the coach a 3 game suspension. Only months later when ESPN aired hours of practice footage on their show "Outside the lines" and the public raised an outcry was Mike Rice finally fired.

Not directing this last part at you (you were just asking a question) but I think it is a straw man argument that we are a politically correct nation where even athletic coaches can't yell at their players unlike the good ole days. It sounds good to say but the truth is that if you are a winning coach it is very hard to get fired no matter how you treat players. Well unless it gets into sexual harassment. Then you are screwed, so to speak, and probably should be.

[Isaac Sours]

If someone sucks at basketball, you should be able to tell them that. I don't mean to get political (although i've seen it hinted at already on this thread), but even a crazy PC leftist like myself finds this to be frivolous litigation. Coaches encourage players to transfer all the time. Coaches criticize players all the time. It's how teams get proper fits and how players get better.

Now if Collins were using racial slurs, or physically abusing players, I'd call for his head, but harsh criticism isn't grounds for a lawsuit, not even by SJW millennial standards.

[Wahoo2000]

Somebody else nailed it earlier in the thread. The yelling, etc is not what's going to get Northwestern into trouble here. It's the underhanded manner they went about trying to force a transfer. IF you read the complaint, it's pretty nasty. And all seemingly very provable. If you get as far as the "timecard" stuff, you'll be shaking your head. It's UNBELIEVABLE, but likely true.

[jv001]

I wonder if Bobby Knight was sued over the treatment of his players. Old Bobby was pretty rough around the edges when it came to coaching. GoDuke!

[kmspeaks]

does this apply only to the boys? in general, how would this be received if the student athlete in question was a female?

It's pretty much the same as the boys although sometimes the sex of the coach is an issue. There are some male coaches who are hesitant to coach female athletes the same way they would boys, but I played for and coached with both men and women that would absolutely rip girls a new one.

Just like the boys there are some girls who respond positively to that kind of coaching and some who can't handle it. And just like with male players the best coaches figure out which camp their players fall in and change tactics accordingly.

[arnie]

When Williams transferred, that was the story that I read and believed. But just this past summer, when news of Thornton's transfer came out and much discussion ensued, some more information came out about EWill:

"But Williams was still unhappy with his role. In an off-season meeting, he demanded an increased offensive role in 2010. K responded by helping facilitate his transfer to hometown Memphis, where "he could be close to his ailing grandmother."

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2016/4/11/11405612/on-derryck-thorntons-departure

Featherston later corrected himself by stating it was Williams's mother, not his grandmother. At any rate, this was the first time I had heard this, but apparently other people in the know were aware of this a long time ago.

Another issue at that time included the list of schools he might visit before transferring. I recall Kentucky on the list ( don't know if Williams actually visited); but with Lexington 6 hours away from Memphis it sure appeared he wasn't happy at Duke.

[ipatent]

I wonder if Bobby Knight was sued over the treatment of his players. Old Bobby was pretty rough around the edges when it came to coaching. GoDuke!

Respect Coach Knight for his relationship with K, skill as a coach and commitment to academics, but the quotes in the Feinstein book were unreal, surprising there weren't more transfers.