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Kfanarmy
11-14-2016, 11:37 AM
Given we don't know what the injury is to one of the three star freshmen riding the pine on injury watch, I have no idea when to guess all three will be in a game. Any thoughts / educated guesses?

budwom
11-14-2016, 11:49 AM
pure guess, early December for all of them...three weeks, FL game in NYC?

OZZIE4DUKE
11-14-2016, 05:40 PM
And now Jason Williams, OUR Jason Williams, is suggesting Harry Giles sit out the year and go to the nba next season. Noooooooooooooooooooooo! Hush your mouth, Jason!

flyingdutchdevil
11-14-2016, 05:42 PM
And now Jason Williams, OUR Jason Williams, is suggesting Harry Giles sit out the year and go to the nba next season. Noooooooooooooooooooooo! Hush your mouth, Jason!

Greg Oden = exhibition #1

I don't agree with Williams, but his point is very valid.

Newton_14
11-14-2016, 05:57 PM
Greg Oden = exhibition #1

I don't agree with Williams, but his point is very valid.

I know you are a NBA guy but I vehemently disagree with this. If anything it's quite the opposite. Greg Oden should have played all 4 years in college where at least he would have had a college career as he was never going to have a NBA career no matter what because his body could not withstand the amount of games (pre-season, Regular Season, Playoffs) that a NBA season brings. Hope he invested the money wisely or went back and got a degree he can use to work a regular job.

Harry Giles is a basketball player and should absolutely return to action as soon as he is healthy enough. His knees are either going to be able to handle a NBA career or not. How many games he plays in a Duke uniform is not going to have one whiff of an impact to that. Its absurd.

The world is selling all these kids a lie.... but I digress...

Rant over. Carry on....

JasonEvans
11-14-2016, 06:00 PM
Greg Oden = exhibition #1

I don't agree with Williams, but his point is very valid.

If Giles sits out the year, the odds are about zero that a NBA team will use a top 5 lottery pick on him. He will not have played in 2 years and no one really knows what he could do on the court against legit competition. Even if he put on a show in workouts, NBA teams are going to be very reluctant with what appears to be a very deep draft.

If he plays and shows he is healthy, he's fairly likely to be the #1 pick. If he does not play, he might not even go in the top 10. Next year's #1 pick will make more than $5 mil in season #1. The #10 pick will make about $2 mil per season. Over the length of a rookie contract, the difference in going #1 and #10 is more than $10 million.

If Harry Giles is really worried about getting hurt again, his family should talk to Lloyd's of London. I am sure they could get a multi-million dollar insurance policy that would pay them if he never makes it in the NBA. I'm fairly certain the NCAA allows insurance contracts like that.

-Jason "he will come back and play... and he will be a beast. Mark my words" Evans

ipatent
11-14-2016, 06:36 PM
If Harry Giles is really worried about getting hurt again, his family should talk to Lloyd's of London. I am sure they could get a multi-million dollar insurance policy that would pay them if he never makes it in the NBA. I'm fairly certain the NCAA allows insurance contracts like that.

That's a good idea for all of the legit NBA prospects, but the premium for Harry Giles would probably be pretty high at this point with his history.

Dukehky
11-14-2016, 07:28 PM
I know you are a NBA guy but I vehemently disagree with this. If anything it's quite the opposite. Greg Oden should have played all 4 years in college where at least he would have had a college career as he was never going to have a NBA career no matter what because his body could not withstand the amount of games (pre-season, Regular Season, Playoffs) that a NBA season brings. Hope he invested the money wisely or went back and got a degree he can use to work a regular job.

Harry Giles is a basketball player and should absolutely return to action as soon as he is healthy enough. His knees are either going to be able to handle a NBA career or not. How many games he plays in a Duke uniform is not going to have one whiff of an impact to that. Its absurd.

The world is selling all these kids a lie... but I digress...

Rant over. Carry on...

Greg Oden made over 25 million dollars in the NBA. He could pay to go back to college with that money, but would have had a negligible chance to make that amount by this age and maybe ever had he played all 4 years, found out his body wouldn't allow it, and graduated.

I want to see Giles suit up for Duke as much as the next guy, but ESPECIALLY if there is an injury concern for your future, take the money. Like I said above, you can make the money, and use a percentage to go back to school. Then at least you have a nest egg to start off with.

Steven43
11-14-2016, 07:31 PM
And now Jason Williams, OUR Jason Williams, is suggesting Harry Giles sit out the year and go to the nba next season. Noooooooooooooooooooooo! Hush your mouth, Jason!

Jason Williams has had a decided lack of enthusiadm for all things Duke basketball for years. He seems to be much more of a UNC fan than a Duke fan. And in fact he was a UNC fan long before he attended Duke. He has just become annoying at this point.

Wahoo2000
11-14-2016, 07:36 PM
Greg Oden made over 25 million dollars in the NBA. He could pay to go back to college with that money, but would have had a negligible chance to make that amount by this age and maybe ever had he played all 4 years, found out his body wouldn't allow it, and graduated.

I want to see Giles suit up for Duke as much as the next guy, but ESPECIALLY if there is an injury concern for your future, take the money. Like I said above, you can make the money, and use a percentage to go back to school. Then at least you have a nest egg to start off with.

^^^This^^^

Guys have a limited window to make cash in the pros as it is. For a guy with injury issues to stick around in college while his stock plummets...... that's insanity. If Oden had stayed in college for 4 years, he might not have been drafted at all. I'm sure he's happy with his $25 million.

NSDukeFan
11-14-2016, 07:40 PM
Jason Williams has had a decided lack of enthusiadm for all things Duke basketball for years. He seems to be much more of a UNC fan than a Duke fan. And in fact he was a UNC fan long before he attended Duke. He has just become annoying at this point.

Seems a bit harsh towards a guy who has his jersey in the rafters, won a championship and seems to have represented the program and university well and made himself a nice career as an analyst.

OldPhiKap
11-14-2016, 07:44 PM
Jason Williams has had a decided lack of enthusiadm for all things Duke basketball for years. He seems to be much more of a UNC fan than a Duke fan. And in fact he was a UNC fan long before he attended Duke. He has just become annoying at this point.

Jason did more for Duke than anyone on this board AFAIK. Just sayin'

mattman91
11-14-2016, 08:26 PM
Jason did more for Duke than anyone on this board AFAIK. Just sayin'

Yeah, this is J-Will we are talking about, not Jay Bilas.

SilkyJ
11-14-2016, 09:05 PM
Jason did more for Duke than anyone on this board AFAIK. Just sayin'

Yea, but you're not counting the billion dollars I'm going to give in 50 years once my sports gambling habit finally pays off...

flyingdutchdevil
11-14-2016, 09:08 PM
I know you are a NBA guy but I vehemently disagree with this. If anything it's quite the opposite. Greg Oden should have played all 4 years in college where at least he would have had a college career as he was never going to have a NBA career no matter what because his body could not withstand the amount of games (pre-season, Regular Season, Playoffs) that a NBA season brings. Hope he invested the money wisely or went back and got a degree he can use to work a regular job.

Harry Giles is a basketball player and should absolutely return to action as soon as he is healthy enough. His knees are either going to be able to handle a NBA career or not. How many games he plays in a Duke uniform is not going to have one whiff of an impact to that. Its absurd.

The world is selling all these kids a lie... but I digress...

Rant over. Carry on...

Well, I disagree with you. Here are recent words from Greg Oden:


"So many people wanted me to play. I wanted to play, but I was so out of whack,'' Oden said. "I should have listened to what everybody said and sat my butt down. Instead, I kept trying to do extra stuff, to push myself to be ready faster. I was worried about being able to show people what I could do instead of worrying about getting better all the way. I will always regret that.''

The Duke coaching staff, correctly so, is being at cautious as possible. And that means not playing Giles until he is 100%, which sounds like this may take a while. 2 major knee surgeries and 1 clean-up before the age of 19? That's a sign of a bad knees, and the coaching staff needs to put Giles's future first and foremost.

I want Giles to play too. But if it's "play for Duke and risk reinjuring your knee and not having an NBA career" or "don't play for Duke, get drafted in the mid-to-high lottery, and see what happens", I'd hope Giles would take the second choice. Of course, the most realistic option is, "play 8-10 min for Duke, show what I can do, don't get injured, and be a top 5 pick". But that risk is always there. And unlike most on this board, I believe that Giles has bad knees.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-14-2016, 09:21 PM
Jason Williams has had a decided lack of enthusiadm for all things Duke basketball for years. He seems to be much more of a UNC fan than a Duke fan. And in fact he was a UNC fan long before he attended Duke. He has just become annoying at this point.

I encourage you to read J-Will's book before making any additional blanket statements about his attitude towards Duke.

UrinalCake
11-14-2016, 10:07 PM
Around the time Harry had his latest knee scope, I listened to just about every single college basketball podcast out there (including the DBR podcast, of course ;)). It was a common opinion among the National guys that Giles should sit the entire season. Their reasoning was simply why risk injury to play for free when you could first secure an NBA contract.

The counterargument is that this is such a loaded draft that there are a number of players out there who are on par with Giles athletically and do not have the injury history, so most NBA teams would rather draft someone else - Dennis Smith Jr., Markelle Fultz, Josh Jackson, Tatum, etc. - and not take on the risk. In another draft, maybe last year's, Giles might be worth the risk because he has so much more potential than any of the other guys, but that is not the case this year.

Gary Parrish said that he interviewed five NBA GM's and four of them said they would not draft Giles #1 EVEN IF he plays most of this season for Duke and looks every bit as good as we all think he can be. The fifth said it would depend on what the doctors say. But those four are already scared off by his injury history enough to drop him out of their top spot.

My highly uneducated guess is that if he doesn't play at all, and he goes to the pre-draft camps and the doctors all say he's 100% healthy, he'd be drafted somewhere around 10. Again, there are plenty of other excellent players without the injury history, and those guys are going to get plenty of exposure playing this season and through March. But if he comes back in December or January, plays his way back into shape and proves that he's the player we see in all the high school mix tapes, then I think he could move up to #3 or #4.

Interestingly, Tatum and Bolden are now facing a similar decision. We don't know the severity of their injuries, but for them it is their first injury and so they don't have to worry as much about the stigma of being labeled "injury-prone." If either of them decided to shut it down, sit out the entire season and just work out on their own, they could still be top-5 picks. I don't think either of them will do that assume they get healthy, and I think they have a greater chance at being high draft picks if they do play and prove themselves on the court, but it's something I'm sure they're at least considering.

-jk
11-14-2016, 10:18 PM
Around the time Harry had his latest knee scope, I listened to just about every single college basketball podcast out there (including the DBR podcast, of course ;)). It was a common opinion among the National guys that Giles should sit the entire season. Their reasoning was simply why risk injury to play for free when you could first secure an NBA contract.

The counterargument is that this is such a loaded draft that there are a number of players out there who are on par with Giles athletically and do not have the injury history, so most NBA teams would rather draft someone else - Dennis Smith Jr., Markelle Fultz, Josh Jackson, Tatum, etc. - and not take on the risk. In another draft, maybe last year's, Giles might be worth the risk because he has so much more potential than any of the other guys, but that is not the case this year.

Gary Parrish said that he interviewed five NBA GM's and four of them said they would not draft Giles #1 EVEN IF he plays most of this season for Duke and looks every bit as good as we all think he can be. The fifth said it would depend on what the doctors say. But those four are already scared off by his injury history enough to drop him out of their top spot.

My highly uneducated guess is that if he doesn't play at all, and he goes to the pre-draft camps and the doctors all say he's 100% healthy, he'd be drafted somewhere around 10. Again, there are plenty of other excellent players without the injury history, and those guys are going to get plenty of exposure playing this season and through March. But if he comes back in December or January, plays his way back into shape and proves that he's the player we see in all the high school mix tapes, then I think he could move up to #3 or #4.

Interestingly, Tatum and Bolden are now facing a similar decision. We don't know the severity of their injuries, but for them it is their first injury and so they don't have to worry as much about the stigma of being labeled "injury-prone." If either of them decided to shut it down, sit out the entire season and just work out on their own, they could still be top-5 picks. I don't think either of them will do that assume they get healthy, and I think they have a greater chance at being high draft picks if they do play and prove themselves on the court, but it's something I'm sure they're at least considering.

I don't trust anything the NBA guys say - they live for gamesmanship, especially with the draft!

-jk

6th Man
11-14-2016, 11:24 PM
Around the time Harry had his latest knee scope, I listened to just about every single college basketball podcast out there (including the DBR podcast, of course ;)). It was a common opinion among the National guys that Giles should sit the entire season. Their reasoning was simply why risk injury to play for free when you could first secure an NBA contract.

The counterargument is that this is such a loaded draft that there are a number of players out there who are on par with Giles athletically and do not have the injury history, so most NBA teams would rather draft someone else - Dennis Smith Jr., Markelle Fultz, Josh Jackson, Tatum, etc. - and not take on the risk. In another draft, maybe last year's, Giles might be worth the risk because he has so much more potential than any of the other guys, but that is not the case this year.

Gary Parrish said that he interviewed five NBA GM's and four of them said they would not draft Giles #1 EVEN IF he plays most of this season for Duke and looks every bit as good as we all think he can be. The fifth said it would depend on what the doctors say. But those four are already scared off by his injury history enough to drop him out of their top spot.

My highly uneducated guess is that if he doesn't play at all, and he goes to the pre-draft camps and the doctors all say he's 100% healthy, he'd be drafted somewhere around 10. Again, there are plenty of other excellent players without the injury history, and those guys are going to get plenty of exposure playing this season and through March. But if he comes back in December or January, plays his way back into shape and proves that he's the player we see in all the high school mix tapes, then I think he could move up to #3 or #4.

Interestingly, Tatum and Bolden are now facing a similar decision. We don't know the severity of their injuries, but for them it is their first injury and so they don't have to worry as much about the stigma of being labeled "injury-prone." If either of them decided to shut it down, sit out the entire season and just work out on their own, they could still be top-5 picks. I don't think either of them will do that assume they get healthy, and I think they have a greater chance at being high draft picks if they do play and prove themselves on the court, but it's something I'm sure they're at least considering.

I'd like to think that these guys chose Duke to spend their one year in college to become a part of the brotherhood and to do something special. As an Iron Duke, I'd hate to think money donated for student-athletes would go to guys that shut it down to workout on their own for NBA riches.

Kedsy
11-14-2016, 11:34 PM
Interestingly, Tatum and Bolden are now facing a similar decision. We don't know the severity of their injuries, but for them it is their first injury and so they don't have to worry as much about the stigma of being labeled "injury-prone." If either of them decided to shut it down, sit out the entire season and just work out on their own, they could still be top-5 picks. I don't think either of them will do that assume they get healthy, and I think they have a greater chance at being high draft picks if they do play and prove themselves on the court, but it's something I'm sure they're at least considering.

Jayson Tatum maybe could sit out the season and still be a top 5 pick. Marques Bolden? I don't think so. I checked out a bunch of mock 2017 drafts, and here's what they had to say about Marques:

NBADraftNet -- 14
DraftExpress -- 15
SI -- outside top 15
ESPN (Chad Ford) -- 17
NBADraftRoom -- 21
CBS -- 23
HoopsHype -- outside 1st round

There doesn't seem to be much (if any) chance that Marques could sit out the season and go in the top five. Just not happening. Frankly, if he sits out, I'm not sure he's even one-and-done.

And as for Jayson, while he'd have a chance at a top 5 pick if he sat for the whole season, he has a sprained ankle. If he wanted to sit out the season, why would he even have come to Duke. The idea that he'd decide to sit out the season after a mere sprain seems ludicrous to me.

Harry Giles is a whole nother thing. There obviously is a risk. But again, if he wanted to sit out, I don't know why he would have bothered to go to college at all. Getting a scope to clean out an old injury from several years ago wouldn't seem to me to be such a scare that he'd decide the whole college basketball experience was too big a risk and sit out. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-15-2016, 07:08 AM
Giles himself is the only one who can make this decision and he needs to be 100% mentally prepared whichever way he decides.

Knee injuries are fickle with your mind. It's very hard to regain confidence and test it out routinely, much less push it back to the limits required at the pace of big time basketball. Knees are way different than ankles in the confidence mind games the body plays on you. (I have experience here).

There is so much potential money involved, personally, I wouldn't play. I'd continue to rehab, and plan to show out in workouts for the NBA teams and take my chances that they throw money at me...the NBA is pretty loose with money and have proven that somebody will gamble on him.

Even if he "only" goes first round, that's life setting money.

Whatever he does it's all on him, he can't let anyone else make this decision, and stick with it.

I wish him the best of luck. It's a tough call.

Troublemaker
11-15-2016, 07:23 AM
Giles himself is the only one who can make this decision and he needs to be 100% mentally prepared whichever way he decides.

Knee injuries are fickle with your mind. It's very hard to regain confidence and test it out routinely, much less push it back to the limits required at the pace of big time basketball. Knees are way different than ankles in the confidence mind games the body plays on you. (I have experience here).

There is so much potential money involved, personally, I wouldn't play. I'd continue to rehab, and plan to show out in workouts for the NBA teams and take my chances that they throw money at me...the NBA is pretty loose with money and have proven that somebody will gamble on him.

Even if he "only" goes first round, that's life setting money.

Whatever he does it's all on him, he can't let anyone else make this decision, and stick with it.

I wish him the best of luck. It's a tough call.

lol

Harry is not wrestling with some "decision" here. He's going to play. You'll probably see him in December.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-15-2016, 07:52 AM
I'm all good if he plays. I've never seen him and am curious to see just how good he is.

You're fooling yourself if you don't think it's a hard decision.

budwom
11-15-2016, 08:32 AM
I'm all good if he plays. I've never seen him and am curious to see just how good he is.

You're fooling yourself if you don't think it's a hard decision.

You truly have no idea what you're talking about here, Wheat.

flyingdutchdevil
11-15-2016, 08:41 AM
lol

Harry is not wrestling with some "decision" here. He's going to play. You'll probably see him in December.

I really hope it's December. I am generally a "glass half empty" kinda guy when it comes to Duke basketball, but I have a really difficult time placing Giles's return on any timetable. I mean, has the dude even started 5-on-5 drills? I'm sure he'll be fine, but I want to see evidence of contract practice before I even think about him returning to competitive games.

NYBri
11-15-2016, 09:09 AM
Since this thread is about speculation: all three back by Christmas, with Giles being the last to return. The other two in early December.

ChillinDuke
11-15-2016, 09:09 AM
Some people on this thread have some pretty far out views on this stuff.

While it's true that, in theory, a college player may want to "game" the system as best he can in order to "lock in" as much money as he can on the front end of his career in order to guard against injury, the vast majority of these guys are playing the long view. I just can't imagine that any reasonable college-aged top-tier basketball player is thinking "gee, I may not play very long in the NBA because of my health" and, further to that, is strategizing to optimize his situation given his health concerns. It just seems highly unlikely.

And even more to the point, these guys are basketball players. They aren't in the business of sitting on sidelines. They want to play the game and, in many senses, need to play the game.

So while I get the "prepare for the worst" mindsets of some on the Board, it's simply not going to happen that any of these three freshmen won't play this season. It's near 100% that Tatum and Bolden will not sit out. Giles is a different story with some different considerations, but I'd expect him to play this season with 95% certainty.

- Chillin

ETA - and for those that agree with my view, why the heck don't you hear the talking heads use logic like this? It seems there is always a slant to the unreasonable, but maybe I'm not listening well enough.

Steven43
11-15-2016, 09:18 AM
^^^This^^^

Guys have a limited window to make cash in the pros as it is. For a guy with injury issues to stick around in college while his stock plummets... that's insanity. If Oden had stayed in college for 4 years, he might not have been drafted at all. I'm sure he's happy with his $25 million.

What a SHOCKER that a UVA fan thinks it would be a wonderful idea if the nation's #1 recruit, Harry Giles, the crown jewel of Duke's top-ranked recruiting class, chooses to rehab at Duke's world-class medical facilities and then turn pro without ever having set foot on the court at Cameron Indoor.

Pghdukie
11-15-2016, 09:19 AM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Kyrie Irving yet !

MChambers
11-15-2016, 09:19 AM
Some people on this thread have some pretty far out views on this stuff.

While it's true that, in theory, a college player may want to "game" the system as best he can in order to "lock in" as much money as he can on the front end of his career in order to guard against injury, the vast majority of these guys are playing the long view. I just can't imagine that any reasonable college-aged top-tier basketball player is thinking "gee, I may not play very long in the NBA because of my health" and, further to that, is strategizing to optimize his situation given his health concerns. It just seems highly unlikely.

And even more to the point, these guys are basketball players. They aren't in the business of sitting on sidelines. They want to play the game and, in many senses, need to play the game.

So while I get the "prepare for the worst" mindsets of some on the Board, it's simply not going to happen that any of these three freshmen won't play this season. It's near 100% that Tatum and Bolden will not sit out. Giles is a different story with some different considerations, but I'd expect him to play this season with 95% certainty.

- Chillin

ETA - and for those that agree with my view, why the heck don't you hear the talking heads use logic like this? It seems there is always a slant to the unreasonable, but maybe I'm not listening well enough.

I completely agree with all of this.

As to the talking heads, they get paid to attract attention and create headlines. Saying sober, rational things doesn't attract attention.

Rickshaw
11-15-2016, 09:29 AM
Has anyone seen this 'sit my healthy self out and see where I get drafted' scenario before?

Steven43
11-15-2016, 09:36 AM
I'd like to think that these guys chose Duke to spend their one year in college to become a part of the brotherhood and to do something special. As an Iron Duke, I'd hate to think money donated for student-athletes would go to guys that shut it down to workout on their own for NBA riches.

EXACTLY! Duke University provides millions of dollars in medical services for their student-athletes--which I have absolutely no problem with--AS LONG AS said athletes return to playing for Duke when the injuries are healed. That is part of the deal they agreed to when they signed their lettter of acceptance. Any athlete at Duke who is healthy enough to play needs to do precisely that.

Steven43
11-15-2016, 09:40 AM
I really hope it's December. I am generally a "glass half empty" kinda guy when it comes to Duke basketball, but I have a really difficult time placing Giles's return on any timetable. I mean, has the dude even started 5-on-5 drills? I'm sure he'll be fine, but I want to see evidence of contract practice before I even think about him returning to competitive games.

How can you possibly be a "glass half empty" kind of guy when it comes to Duke Basketball when you are a fan of the nation's premier basketball program? Does that make any sense at all?

blUDAYvil
11-15-2016, 09:56 AM
As an Iron Duke, I'd hate to think money donated for student-athletes would go to guys that shut it down to workout on their own for NBA riches.


That is part of the deal they agreed to when they signed their lettter of acceptance. Any athlete at Duke who is healthy enough to play needs to do precisely that.

This is an uncomfortable line of reasoning. Is an Iron Duke donation made with the caveat that the "student-athlete" it helps secure must render a certain number of games/minutes of service a year? Does a "letter of acceptance" and/or medical treatment similarly bond the player? We spend so much time recruiting for character/integrity but it's alarming how little trust we're willing to repose on these gentlemen precisely when they need it most.

Steven43
11-15-2016, 09:59 AM
This is an uncomfortable line of reasoning. Is an Iron Duke donation made with the caveat that the "student-athlete" it helps secure must render a certain number of games/minutes of service a year? Does a "letter of acceptance" and/or medical treatment similarly bond the player? We spend so much time recruiting for character/integrity but it's alarming how little trust we're willing to repose on these gentlemen precisely when they need it most.
You think there is something wrong with Duke coaches expecting their healthy players to play?

blUDAYvil
11-15-2016, 10:05 AM
You think there is something wrong with Duke coaches expecting their healthy players to play?

Of course not. I think there is something wrong with us doubting a player who is sitting on the bench. I wouldn't be reminding these gentlemen of their contractual obligations to the Iron Dukes.

sagegrouse
11-15-2016, 10:07 AM
EXACTLY! Duke University provides millions of dollars in medical services for their student-athletes--which I have absolutely no problem with--AS LONG AS said athletes return to playing for Duke when the injuries are healed. That is part of the deal they agreed to when they signed their lettter of acceptance. Any athlete at Duke who is healthy enough to play needs to do precisely that.

Steven, where's the problem? Duke basketball players are among the most competitive people and skilled athletes on the entire planet -- it would be astounding if any are not straining at the leash to get on the court.

Steven43
11-15-2016, 10:08 AM
Of course not. I think there is something wrong with us doubting a player who is sitting on the bench. I wouldn't be reminding these gentlemen of their contractual obligations to the Iron Dukes.

I don't know where you're getting this stuff. I never said what you are alleging.

crf30
11-15-2016, 10:16 AM
I assume that if a student is having their schooling paid for by an athletic scholarship, they would be required to participate in their sport (if healthy), or face forfeiting their scholarship.

flyingdutchdevil
11-15-2016, 10:17 AM
How can you possibly be a "glass half empty" kind of guy when it comes to Duke Basketball when you are a fan of the nation's premier basketball program? Does that make any sense at all?

Seriously? The spectrum of optimism shifts with the level of basketball program (bad to "premier"), and there are pessimistic fans in that spectrum. I am at that end.

You think that all Germany fans think they are going to win the World Cup every year? Me thinks not...

Ichabod Drain
11-15-2016, 10:22 AM
I assume that if a student is having their schooling paid for by an athletic scholarship, they would be required to participate in their sport (if healthy), or face forfeiting their scholarship.

Yea that's not gonna happen. That would be a terrible look for the program especially since "healthy" is relative and Giles is the only person who actually knows how his knees feel.

I'm not digging the direction parts of this thread are going.

Matches
11-15-2016, 10:30 AM
I'm not digging the direction parts of this thread are going.

Yea there's an undercurrent here that no one is saying out loud but the implication is there....

Bottom line - K and Duke are not going to intentionally sit healthy players. If/ when the freshmen are healthy and can play without jeopardizing their long-term health, they will play.

Steven43
11-15-2016, 10:32 AM
Yea there's an undercurrent here that no one is saying out loud but the implication is there...

Bottom line - K and Duke are not going to intentionally sit healthy players. If/ when the freshmen are healthy and can play without jeopardizing their long-term health, they will play.

Perfect. That's all we as fans can reasonably expect in regard to this topic.

crf30
11-15-2016, 10:40 AM
Apologies if my comment was taken negatively. It wasn't meant to be hinting about anything. I'm actually pretty confident (purely based on my own optimism) that Giles will be back before the calendar year is out.

I just think some of the talk of players gaming the system is a little bit ridiculous. Hence my comment that if they did that they shouldn't be on scholarship. I don't think that is the case with our players though.

BoozerWasFouled
11-15-2016, 10:53 AM
There is no indication whatsoever that a healthy Giles intends to sit.

This is all clickbait from Jay Williams.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-15-2016, 10:53 AM
lol

Harry is not wrestling with some "decision" here. He's going to play. You'll probably see him in December.
From your lips/fingertips to God's ears! LGD GTHc!

sagegrouse
11-15-2016, 10:55 AM
There is no indication whatsoever that a healthy Giles intends to sit.

This is all clickbait from Jay Williams.

By the way, this just in from JWill's Twitter account: Duke beat Carolina in football, and the voters elected Donald Trump.

oakvillebluedevil
11-15-2016, 10:58 AM
By the way, this just in from JWill's Twitter account: Duke beat Carolina in football, and the voters elected Donald Trump.

If that's not worth CNN's 'Breaking News' headline tag, I don't know what is :D

OldPhiKap
11-15-2016, 11:08 AM
Duke basketball players are among the most competitive people and skilled athletes on the entire planet -- it would be astounding if any are not straining at the leash to get on the court.

This, exactly.

yancem
11-15-2016, 11:15 AM
Greg Oden = exhibition #1

I don't agree with Williams, but his point is very valid.

How is Oden exhibit #1? He was the number 1 pick and for that matter Embid went 3. Both had major injuries prior to the draft and both were drafted really high. Oden never fully recovered and washed out. Embid is looking pretty good now (after sitting out forever) but its too early to tell if he is over his injury issues. Also, Kenyon Martin went #1 after a bad leg injury. I'm actually struggling to think of a recent example of an injury majorly affecting a top talent.

Giles certainly could fit the bill, if he returns and get hurt again his draft stock will go down but if he doesn't play, I think his draft stock will also go down. Maybe not as much and that might be William's thought but there have already been whispers that nba execs are wary of Giles' knees, if he comes back and stay healthy his stock probably goes back up. It's a gamble one way or the other and sitting out may be the safer bet but playing offers a possible better payoff.

NSDukeFan
11-15-2016, 11:31 AM
I completely agree with all of this.

As to the talking heads, they get paid to attract attention and create headlines. Saying sober, rational things doesn't attract attention.
Even when trying to become the president. (Too soon?)

Seriously? The spectrum of optimism shifts with the level of basketball program (bad to "premier"), and there are pessimistic fans in that spectrum. I am at that end.

You think that all Germany fans think they are going to win the World Cup every year? Me thinks not...

That would be extremely optimistic, though a certain amount probably expect a winner every four years. 😉

yancem
11-15-2016, 11:34 AM
Oh, and how did I forget Irving!?!?!?! He sat out for months, came back for 2 games and went #1.

niveklaen
11-15-2016, 11:34 AM
Coach K does not pull scholarships due to injury. In 1991(?) Erik Meek missed his senior year of high school BBall because he got hit by a car while running. K did not pull his schollie. Obi sat out most of last year and looks like this year too and K has not pulled his schollie.

..and as others have mentioned, I can think of exactly zero healthy players sitting out college to avoid risk of injury. When someone can name a single example I will consider JWill's suggestion. Until then it is just fantasy.

Steven43
11-15-2016, 11:37 AM
By the way, this just in from JWill's Twitter account: Duke beat Carolina in football, and the voters elected Donald Trump.
What is that even supposed to mean? Why is he equating Duke beating UNC in football with Trump winning the election? I don't understand his point.

flyingdutchdevil
11-15-2016, 11:40 AM
How is Oden exhibit #1? He was the number 1 pick and for that matter Embid went 3. Both had major injuries prior to the draft and both were drafted really high. Oden never fully recovered and washed out. Embid is looking pretty good now (after sitting out forever) but its too early to tell if he is over his injury issues. Also, Kenyon Martin went #1 after a bad leg injury. I'm actually struggling to think of a recent example of an injury majorly affecting a top talent.

Giles certainly could fit the bill, if he returns and get hurt again his draft stock will go down but if he doesn't play, I think his draft stock will also go down. Maybe not as much and that might be William's thought but there have already been whispers that nba execs are wary of Giles' knees, if he comes back and stay healthy his stock probably goes back up. It's a gamble one way or the other and sitting out may be the safer bet but playing offers a possible better payoff.

Read my follow up post.

cato
11-15-2016, 11:46 AM
Has anyone seen this 'sit my healthy self out and see where I get drafted' scenario before?

Not that I can recall. But I do recall K keeping Kyrie on the sidelines until he was completely healed, and then giving him the ball when he was ready to go during the tourney.

Now, I don't know if bringing Kyrie back in a more limited role would have avoided the result of that Arizona game, but I do know that K's handling of Kyrie really helped Kyrie's draft status.

I assume that K will always do what is best for his team on a given day, month and year. But he will clearly also look out for the best interests of the future superstars that have entrusted their future to his program.

Ichabod Drain
11-15-2016, 11:52 AM
Not that I can recall. But I do recall K keeping Kyrie on the sidelines until he was completely healed, and then giving him the ball when he was ready to go during the tourney.

Now, I don't know if bringing Kyrie back in a more limited role would have avoided the result of that Arizona game, but I do know that K's handling of Kyrie really helped Kyrie's draft status.

I assume that K will always do what is best for his team on a given day, month and year. But he will clearly also look out for the best interests of the future superstars that have entrusted their future to his program.

If K had brought Kyrie back sooner he would of been able to guard Derrick Williams and box him out! Done Deal!

flyingdutchdevil
11-15-2016, 11:53 AM
Not that I can recall. But I do recall K keeping Kyrie on the sidelines until he was completely healed, and then giving him the ball when he was ready to go during the tourney.

Now, I don't know if bringing Kyrie back in a more limited role would have avoided the result of that Arizona game, but I do know that K's handling of Kyrie really helped Kyrie's draft status.

I assume that K will always do what is best for his team on a given day, month and year. But he will clearly also look out for the best interests of the future superstars that have entrusted their future to his program.

I'm not so sure. See Jefferson, Amile. I am convinced that Amile was ready for the NCAA Tournament (at least healthy enough to play effectively). However, there were so many unknowns: a) would playing Amile ruin the chemistry created by the team? b) would you play Amile for what is likely only an Elite Eight or Final Four birth with >1% chance of winning it all? c) would you play Amile knowing that you can get him next year for a team with much likelier odds to win it all?

sagegrouse
11-15-2016, 12:03 PM
What is that even supposed to mean? Why is he equating Duke beating UNC in football with Trump winning the election? I don't understand his point.

Sorry, Steven, old joke. JWill is famous for sending clueless Tweets days or weeks after the news has broken.

JasonEvans
11-15-2016, 12:45 PM
It is probably worth noting that Oden and Embiid (and Kyrie) had shown themselves to be absolute game-changers at the college level when they got drafted. The NBA saw what they could do against legit competition in college and wanted them. If Giles or some other top recruit were to shut it down prior to playing any college games, the situation would be quite different and would likely give NBA GMs real pause.

This is a sorta silly discussion -- all three of these guys appear to have somewhat short-term injuries that will allow them to be 100% healthy in a matter of weeks. At that point they will play. Sitting out at that point would be a red flag that would be serious poison to your NBA draft stock. The NBA doesn't want guys who are unproven and appear timid in addition to being injury prone.

-Jason "this thread has gotten silly, IMO... and that is really saying something coming from someone as silly as me ;) " Evans

sagegrouse
11-15-2016, 12:56 PM
-Jason "this thread has gotten silly, IMO... and that is really saying something coming from someone as silly as me ;) " Evans

As I have noted previously, Duke's obtuseness on injuries over the years has become even more disheartening this year with Harry Giles, Jayson Tatum and Marques Bolden. I ask you, Jason, what exactly is wrong with the latter two? And why, if Harry's surgery was just a clean-up from past procedures, was it delayed until the start of practice?

Kindly,
Sage
'Not to carp too much, but I do it so much I must like it'

flyingdutchdevil
11-15-2016, 01:00 PM
It is probably worth noting that Oden and Embiid (and Kyrie) had shown themselves to be absolute game-changers at the college level when they got drafted. The NBA saw what they could do against legit competition in college and wanted them. If Giles or some other top recruit were to shut it down prior to playing any college games, the situation would be quite different and would likely give NBA GMs real pause.

This is a sorta silly discussion -- all three of these guys appear to have somewhat short-term injuries that will allow them to be 100% healthy in a matter of weeks. At that point they will play. Sitting out at that point would be a red flag that would be serious poison to your NBA draft stock. The NBA doesn't want guys who are unproven and appear timid in addition to being injury prone.

-Jason "this thread has gotten silly, IMO... and that is really saying something coming from someone as silly as me ;) " Evans

I think this is where there are differing philosophies. I do not think Giles's situation/injury is short-term. 2 torn ACLs in two different knees before his 18th birthday isn't short-term, like a high ankle sprain or a stress fracture. Rather, it's something that is much more challenging to manage and has heavy-duty risks associated with it. If this was short-term, I don't think Duke fans would be worried about Giles. But many - like myself - are worried.

I am not worried about Tatum or Bolden. They will see time this year and likely sooner rather than later. I am worried for Giles, who I want to see have a long and prosperous career.

I would love the input of real doctors on here about the correlation between re-injury and length of rehab. Does this exist? If Giles were to rehab for 18 months, does this increase his chances of no injuries down the road? Please note I emphasized real doctors.

cato
11-15-2016, 01:05 PM
If K had brought Kyrie back sooner he would of been able to guard Derrick Williams and box him out! Done Deal!

Precisely my point. The disruption caused by reinserting Kylie as the leader of the team in March may not have made a difference. That said, defense is a played as a team, and there is no knowing what would have happened on an alternate universe.

Of course, in that alternate universe, SDSU could have beat UConn and then beat Duke behind the defense of Kawhi Leonard.

My point is simply that K's handling of Kyrie showed astute management of an injured superstar in the making. That is the only thing we can know for sure.

dukefan1980
11-15-2016, 01:22 PM
Jason Williams has had a decided lack of enthusiadm for all things Duke basketball for years. He seems to be much more of a UNC fan than a Duke fan. And in fact he was a UNC fan long before he attended Duke. He has just become annoying at this point.

I remember listening to a story from Jay Bilas shortly after moving into broadcasting about how Coach K's advice to him with his new career was to not show favoritism to Duke. I'm sure that Coach gave this same speech to Jason. I've had the pleasure of being around both Jay and Jason and both love Duke greatly. I guarantee you that they both were celebrating greatly during the 2015 Championship game off camera but as soon as the lights went on, they had to show impartiality. Both of them are in the unenviable situation in which if they say something good about Duke, they are 'homers' and if they say something negative about Duke, they are traitors.

devildeac
11-15-2016, 01:23 PM
I think this is where there are differing philosophies. I do not think Giles's situation/injury is short-term. 2 torn ACLs in two different knees before his 18th birthday isn't short-term, like a high ankle sprain or a stress fracture. Rather, it's something that is much more challenging to manage and has heavy-duty risks associated with it. If this was short-term, I don't think Duke fans would be worried about Giles. But many - like myself - are worried.

I am not worried about Tatum or Bolden. They will see time this year and likely sooner rather than later. I am worried for Giles, who I want to see have a long and prosperous career.

I would love the input of real doctors on here about the correlation between re-injury and length of rehab. Does this exist? If Giles were to rehab for 18 months, does this increase his chances of no injuries down the road? Please note I emphasized real doctors.

I'm a real doctor (at least my Target diploma sez so :p) but I ain't touching this one. Now, I've called billy out before and I'd trust him to render an opinion or 3 here, but, with him not knowing the true/complete nature of these injuries, I'd be thinking he'd be speculating, too, but it'd be from a trained and board certified orthopedic surgeon at least. :)

dukefan1980
11-15-2016, 01:29 PM
I know that it has been widely discussed on this board about the injuries being a result of Nike shoes. I was speaking with a former player last week about this and he told me that it is widely discussed in the NBA locker rooms how bad Nike shoes are. He said that the only good Nike shoes are the LeBrons and KDs. Food for thought

MChambers
11-15-2016, 01:31 PM
And why, if Harry's surgery was just a clean-up from past procedures, was it delayed until the start of practice?

Kindly,
Sage
'Not to carp too much, but I do it so much I must like it'

I'm pretty sure Giles had some discomfort in the knee that he hurt three years ago. He told the medical staff and they recommended some clean-up. I assume it was delayed because Giles had not mentioned it earlier. And maybe he hadn't had the discomfort previously. The article below says he had a setback in September.

http://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/story/harry-giles-injury-update-knee-surgery-coach-k-nba-draft-stock-potential-102516

gam7
11-15-2016, 01:50 PM
I remember listening to a story from Jay Bilas shortly after moving into broadcasting about how Coach K's advice to him with his new career was to not show favoritism to Duke. I'm sure that Coach gave this same speech to Jason. I've had the pleasure of being around both Jay and Jason and both love Duke greatly. I guarantee you that they both were celebrating greatly during the 2015 Championship game off camera but as soon as the lights went on, they had to show impartiality. Both of them are in the unenviable situation in which if they say something good about Duke, they are 'homers' and if they say something negative about Duke, they are traitors.

I can confirm that both Jays returned to the team hotel in the wee hours after the championship game, with large smiles on their faces, presumably to celebrate the win with the team.

Also, count me among those who think there is no way that healthy members of the team will sit to improve (or retain) their draft stock. I cannot point to a single example in any sport where this has actually happened (or that a player has been accused of having chosen to sit out to retain their status). Can anyone else?

flyingdutchdevil
11-15-2016, 01:54 PM
I can confirm that both Jays returned to the team hotel in the wee hours after the championship game, with large smiles on their faces, presumably to celebrate the win with the team.

Pre-marriage, I often had a smile on my face when I returned home in the wee hours. ;)

To all DBRers - listen to JJ Redick's podcast with Jay Bilas. He explains that he has nothing but respect for Duke and Coach K but he has to call it like he sees it without getting that emotional element into the analysis. Hard to do, and sometimes analysts overcompensate, but they are trying to be as unbiased as possible.

Wahoo2000
11-15-2016, 02:15 PM
What a SHOCKER that a UVA fan thinks it would be a wonderful idea if the nation's #1 recruit, Harry Giles, the crown jewel of Duke's top-ranked recruiting class, chooses to rehab at Duke's world-class medical facilities and then turn pro without ever having set foot on the court at Cameron Indoor.

Being a UVA fan has nothing to do with it. I'm pretty sure you guys are just as capable of beating us whether he plays or not. I can barely remember the last time we had a regular season win vs Duke....... and I'm positive it's before we became a top-10 type of team that the Duke players will get "up" for.

I really just try to think what I'd want if it was me (or my kid) in these situations. I'm all for sacrificing for the team and all..... but if that sacrifice has a statistically significant chance of ruining an EXTREMELY lucrative career? Sometimes there are situations where you have to put yourself ahead of the team. Those situations are EXTREMELY rare in my view, but protecting your opportunity to be a multi-millionaire is definitely one of those exceptions.

Steven43
11-15-2016, 02:30 PM
I've had the pleasure of being around both Jay and Jason and both love Duke greatly. I guarantee you that they both were celebrating greatly during the 2015 Championship game off camera.
Thanks for sharing the inside info. It does make me feel a lot better to know they both love Duke. I just wish they would show it a little more. There's nothing wrong with being honest on the air.

dukie’s_daughter
11-15-2016, 02:36 PM
I remember listening to a story from Jay Bilas shortly after moving into broadcasting about how Coach K's advice to him with his new career was to not show favoritism to Duke. I'm sure that Coach gave this same speech to Jason. I've had the pleasure of being around both Jay and Jason and both love Duke greatly. I guarantee you that they both were celebrating greatly during the 2015 Championship game off camera but as soon as the lights went on, they had to show impartiality. Both of them are in the unenviable situation in which if they say something good about Duke, they are 'homers' and if they say something negative about Duke, they are traitors.

Seems to me that our guys have "to show impartiality", but the unc-cheats- bred announcers don't seem to have the same requirements...

Steven43
11-15-2016, 02:42 PM
Being a UVA fan has nothing to do with it. I'm pretty sure you guys are just as capable of beating us whether he plays or not. I can barely remember the last time we had a regular season win vs Duke... and I'm positive it's before we became a top-10 type of team that the Duke players will get "up" for.

I really just try to think what I'd want if it was me (or my kid) in these situations. I'm all for sacrificing for the team and all... but if that sacrifice has a statistically significant chance of ruining an EXTREMELY lucrative career? Sometimes there are situations where you have to put yourself ahead of the team. Those situations are EXTREMELY rare in my view, but protecting your opportunity to be a multi-millionaire is definitely one of those exceptions.
Harry Giles is not going to have an extremely lucrative career in the NBA if he is not willing to take the court once it's determined by some of the best doctors in the world that he is healthy. I think it is ludicrous for you to suggest that even if Duke doctors medically clear Harry to play he should instead forgo the entire season on the chance that he might re-injure himself. If the doctors determine he is healthy enough to play, he should play. What else is there to say?

Oshima25
11-15-2016, 02:44 PM
I'm not so sure. See Jefferson, Amile. I am convinced that Amile was ready for the NCAA Tournament (at least healthy enough to play effectively). However, there were so many unknowns: a) would playing Amile ruin the chemistry created by the team? b) would you play Amile for what is likely only an Elite Eight or Final Four birth with >1% chance of winning it all? c) would you play Amile knowing that you can get him next year for a team with much likelier odds to win it all?

d) Would rushing Amile back hurt his draft status, pushing him toward the NBA with scouts still uncertain of his development after nearly a full senior year out? Points a-c are definitely logical, but suggesting K didn't do right by Amile probably isn't fair. Also, let's not act like this is purely Coach K's decision. Yes, it's up to K to put him on the court, but it's fair to assume Amile was heavily involved in the decision of when and how to come back.

newclasspack
11-15-2016, 02:45 PM
Harry Giles is not going to have an extremely lucrative career in the NBA if he is not willing to take the court once it's determined by some of the best doctors in the world that he is healthy. I think it is ludicrous for you to suggest that even if Duke doctors medically clear Harry to play he should instead forgo the entire season on the chance that he might re-injure himself. If the doctors determine he is healthy enough to play, he should play. What else is there to say?Harry could sit out this season and still easily go top 10. Maybe top 5. Potential and upside trump so many things when it comes to the draft.

JStuart
11-15-2016, 02:56 PM
Seems to me that our guys have "to show impartiality", but the unc-cheats- bred announcers don't seem to have the same requirements...

....If Jay made one more negative Duke comment per game, why, he'd could have gotten an ESPY nomination!

Steven43
11-15-2016, 03:00 PM
Harry could sit out this season and still easily go top 10. Maybe top 5. Potential and upside trump so many things when it comes to the draft.

You seem to be missing the point entirely. We are not talking about draft status. We are talking about the fact that a healthy, medically-cleared player should play. That is the bottom line. If the only thing that matters is draft status then shouldn't every high school senior who is projected to go in the top 10 in the draft after one year just sit at home and shoot baskets in the gym until a year has passed? This is just silly. If Harry Giles is cleared to play at Duke HE SHOULD PLAY.

As an aside, I find it interesting that UVA and NC State fans seem to be all for Harry sitting out his time at Duke and not ever playing for our beloved Blue Devils. Good thing Harry is not going to be swayed by such obvious anti-Duke bias. I look forward to the weak protestations of denial from non-Duke fans. We see through you, and always have.

jimsumner
11-15-2016, 03:25 PM
Expect these guys to play when cleared to play.

flyingdutchdevil
11-15-2016, 03:26 PM
d) Would rushing Amile back hurt his draft status, pushing him toward the NBA with scouts still uncertain of his development after nearly a full senior year out? Points a-c are definitely logical, but suggesting K didn't do right by Amile probably isn't fair. Also, let's not act like this is purely Coach K's decision. Yes, it's up to K to put him on the court, but it's fair to assume Amile was heavily involved in the decision of when and how to come back.

No one is suggesting this. IMO, Amile sitting out (if healthy) is likely the decision of BOTH Amile and Duke. They both win: Amile gets another year in college and get a masters coupled with a legitimate shot at winning another natty; Coach K gets muuuuuch better odds to win his 6th natty. The decision for Amile to not play works for both parties. The only "loser" is the results of the 2015-16 team.

flyingdutchdevil
11-15-2016, 03:28 PM
Expect these guys to play when cleared to play.

Can I ask what this means? Who is performing the clearance? And what are the criteria? I assume that there are many varieties of being "medically cleared", ie can play but has some pain, can play but may risk another injury, can play at 100% as if he still had two original ACLs, etc etc etc.

I think the subjectivity of "cleared" makes this an interesting conversation.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-15-2016, 03:42 PM
Expect these guys to play when cleared to play.

Any chance someone gets some surprise minutes tonight?

Count me NOT in the "team is doomed, no one returns" camp.

MChambers
11-15-2016, 03:42 PM
Clearly, it means when the status of their injuries is completely clarified. I don't think that's at all opaque.

Oshima25
11-15-2016, 03:45 PM
No one is suggesting this. IMO, Amile sitting out (if healthy) is likely the decision of BOTH Amile and Duke. They both win: Amile gets another year in college and get a masters coupled with a legitimate shot at winning another natty; Coach K gets muuuuuch better odds to win his 6th natty. The decision for Amile to not play works for both parties. The only "loser" is the results of the 2015-16 team.

My fault Dutch, misread your previous post - I thought you were saying you were unsure about K doing right by players, not by a given team at a given time. My mistake! Though I still think the fourth point about draft status is an important one.

Ichabod Drain
11-15-2016, 03:49 PM
More footage of Giles practicing on Dukes instagram today. Still non contact but he is dunking. Can't wait to see this guy in a game.

Indoor66
11-15-2016, 03:58 PM
My Lord you guys make this complex. When the medical staff clears him (whoever) he will practice and play as deemed appropriate by Coach K. He will play as much or as little time as Coach K determines is in the best interest of Duke and the player (with the Duke consideration being paramount).

newclasspack
11-15-2016, 04:09 PM
You seem to be missing the point entirely. We are not talking about draft status. We are talking about the fact that a healthy, medically-cleared player should play. That is the bottom line. If the only thing that matters is draft status then shouldn't every high school senior who is projected to go in the top 10 in the draft after one year just sit at home and shoot baskets in the gym until a year has passed? This is just silly. If Harry Giles is cleared to play at Duke HE SHOULD PLAY.

As an aside, I find it interesting that UVA and NC State fans seem to be all for Harry sitting out his time at Duke and not ever playing for our beloved Blue Devils. Good thing Harry is not going to be swayed by such obvious anti-Duke bias. I look forward to the weak protestations of denial from non-Duke fans. We see through you, and always have.You made the point that the only way he was gonna have a lucrative (money making) career was to play this year.. and that's just not true. I wanna See Harry Play and i want to see him this year, but i also think he hasn't been fully healthy since the first knee injury. Once again this is all up to Giles, and knowing him he's far too competative to sit, but if he was to go that route, i could not fault him and i would complete understand, nor do i think it would greatly affect his future earnings in the NBA.

jimsumner
11-15-2016, 04:22 PM
Any chance someone gets some surprise minutes tonight?

Count me NOT in the "team is doomed, no one returns" camp.

DeLaurier? Vrankovic? White?

Hopefully. I don't think Duke wins tonight with a six-player rotation.

Return of any injured players? Not tonight.

Still, the level of paranoia on the boards is off the charts.

There's a thread on another board in which a poster speculates--without any shred of evidence--that Tatum and Bolden are actually healthy but are refusing to play because they don't want to imperil their NBA status.

Look, I get it. Nobody expected Jefferson to miss the entire remainder of the season when he hurt his foot last season and he did.

But I can give lots of counter-examples. from Jay Bilas missing the beginning of the 1985-'86 season to Hurley missing three weeks with a broken foot in 1992 to Grant Hill missing some time with a high-ankle sprain the same season to Boozer missing three weeks with a broken foot in 2001 to DeMarcus Nelson in 2006 or Marshall Plumlee coming back from a broken foot in 2013 to Jahlil Okafor rolling an ankle in 2015 and missing all of one game and all these guys came back and played at a high level.

Boozer broke a foot prior to his freshman season, McCaffrey missed a couple of week in '91-'92 with a sprained ankle, Brand came back in '98. Et. al.

Perhaps Irving and Jefferson are outliers not harbingers.

If we're still having this discussion in mid-January instead of mid-November, well that's a different ball of wax.

But I don't think we will.

Wahoo2000
11-15-2016, 04:23 PM
You seem to be missing the point entirely. We are not talking about draft status. We are talking about the fact that a healthy, medically-cleared player should play. That is the bottom line. If the only thing that matters is draft status then shouldn't every high school senior who is projected to go in the top 10 in the draft after one year just sit at home and shoot baskets in the gym until a year has passed? This is just silly. If Harry Giles is cleared to play at Duke HE SHOULD PLAY.

As an aside, I find it interesting that UVA and NC State fans seem to be all for Harry sitting out his time at Duke and not ever playing for our beloved Blue Devils. Good thing Harry is not going to be swayed by such obvious anti-Duke bias. I look forward to the weak protestations of denial from non-Duke fans. We see through you, and always have.

Maybe this isn't coming across in my posts but I actually DO want to watch him play. Plus, him playing is a great indicator of his pro prospects because it means (hopefully) he's 100%.

All of my posts are just tied to the idea that if he DOES NOT feel 100% he shouldn't come back. If he feels great physically, and he gets cleared by the medical staff, 100% he should play. My posts were more regarding to the idea of him (or other athletes in a similar situation) coming back at anything less than 100% and just trying to "tough it out"/"gut it out" for the season in the interests of helping the team (not saying anyone has suggested that is the case here, or that there's a pattern of that happening at Duke, but it DOES happen in major competitive sports more than you might think). There are plenty of times guys are cleared and told, "there will be a lot of pain, but you probably won't do any long-term damage". THOSE are the situations where I'm in favor of a player going against the doctor's advice, or at a minimum seeking a second opinion.

As an aside, I'm sure due to interactions with other fans you probably feel like anybody who isn't a Duke fan "hates" Duke. I can't really blame you for it since it's so prevalent, but just FYI - I don't have any "hate" for Duke. There may be specific players/coaches who do things I don't like, but no moreso than any other top-tier team.

ricks68
11-15-2016, 04:23 PM
Expect these guys to play when cleared to play.

Enough already. I share your frustration (and embarrassment, as far as I am concerned) with this thread.:o

It is what it is, people. There is no conspiracy by either Coach K, or the players, that keeps them from playing. They are injured and will play when they are deemed ready by the medical staff and the coaches. That's it. End of story. My source is called "common sense", by the way, and IMVHO no reason to believe otherwise. Let's move on, please, with this aspect of the discussion.

ricks

budwom
11-15-2016, 04:49 PM
The word seems to be that everyone is progressing nicely, and we should see them all within a few weeks.

flyingdutchdevil
11-15-2016, 04:56 PM
The word seems to be that everyone is progressing nicely, and we should see them all within a few weeks.

Wait, are you telling me that there is an option other than playing tonight or sitting out the remainder of the season? AND NO ONE TOLD ME!!!

Sarcasm aside, I too think this will happen. I have no inside information, just the fact that I am optimistic that recovery goes well for Tatum, Giles starts practice with contact soon, and Bolden's "mysterious" ailment goes away.

ricks68
11-15-2016, 05:14 PM
The word seems to be that everyone is progressing nicely, and we should see them all within a few weeks.

Thank you for the information, whatever your source.

ricks

Owen Meany
11-15-2016, 05:17 PM
Fortunately, I have no doubt that Giles' has people who care about him looking out for his best interests. I also have no doubt that many of the opposing fans and internet poster's who are suddenly expressing concern about Giles' health are not among those individuals. Why, for example, have I not heard more concern about Dennis Smith, whose value as a pro certainly depends more upon his explosiveness than Giles?

Hopefully, Giles will get fully healthy, as expected, and be able to play for Duke this year. It would be wonderful for him and the team. If he truly has some health condition or deficiency that makes him unusually vulnerable to injury, it will certainly be uncovered by the multitude of team physicians that are going to examine him extensively before drafting him with the expectation that he play an 82+ game season. You cannot, however, fool the experts by hiding out for a year. If anything, sitting out another year would send up gigantic red flags that not everything is OK.

I wish this young man the best. Fortunately, he will probably heal as expected and be ready to join his teammates sometime in the not too distant future. But if not, I am glad he has a world class medical center at his disposal to ensure a healthy recovery and that he will be exposed to the knowledge and experience that Coach K and Duke has to offer. He is going to do very well for himself.

Steven43
11-15-2016, 07:02 PM
You made the point that the only way he was gonna have a lucrative (money making) career was to play this year.. and that's just not true.

Nope, try again, pal. I most decidedly did NOT say that. What I meant was that if Harry is the type of person and athlete who would sit out in an attempt to protect his draft status EVEN AFTER BEING MEDICALLY CLEARED by Duke doctors to return to game action, then he does not have the mental fortitude and belief in himself that is required to have a lucrative career in the NBA.

I don't believe this to be the case at all. Harry is a gamer. Once he is cleared to play, he will play and play with great enthusiasm for the Blue Devils. You'll see.

NYBri
11-15-2016, 07:12 PM
Bilas tonight made reference to the fact that they all watched Duke practice today at Madison Square Garden and he said that the three injured players were close to returning. Giles in particular looked great.

NM Duke Fan
11-15-2016, 07:49 PM
Bilas tonight made reference to the fact that they all watched Duke practice today at Madison Square Garden and he said that the three injured players were close to returning. Giles in particular looked great.

Great to hear this from Bilas who goes out of his way to be objective, thanks for the post!

MarkD83
11-15-2016, 08:04 PM
I still contend that Coach K secretly submitted a minutes played prediction where Jeter, White and DeLaurier get lots of minutes.

In all seriousness, I am glad that it sounds like they are getting better. I do wonder if the cautiousness by the medical staff and coaching staff may be do to "over analysis". The same fears we are having about Amile, Kyrie, Ryan etc are fresh on their minds. This means they are probably over-analyzing every little white dot on an MRI or wince or facial expression in practice.

Also, we need to stop second guessing the players. Players want to play and I am sure if you let the three freshman decide whether to play they would be out there tonight or even in the first two games.