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CharlestonDave
11-14-2016, 02:47 AM
If you were a very good basketball player with NBA potential but you committed that you would stay in school for 4 years or even 3 AND get your degree before you left school, would you choose Harvard or Duke ?

YmoBeThere
11-14-2016, 06:25 AM
Or C. None of the above

DukeDevil
11-14-2016, 07:10 AM
Everyone here has a bias obviously, but I'd pick Duke. Not only do you get a world class education but:
1) you get coached by the GOAT
2) while I'm sure Hah-vahd's facilities are excellent, Duke has what may be the best facilities and amenities available to players in the country
3) the greater likelihood of a national championship
4) long term connections from being connected to coach K (who clearly has a lot of pull in the NBA) and the opportunity to delve into the Duke coaching dynasty if your NBA dreams don't work out/are cut short (this is probably a sub category of item 1)
5) why go to the Duke of the North when you can just go to Duke?

ipatent
11-14-2016, 08:24 AM
I think it depends on the academic qualifications of the athlete making the choice and his long term goals. How many elite basketball players considered "good students" have test scores that are even close to the averages at any of the top private schools? Not many. How many elite athletes in a revenue sport anywhere have the ability and time to take the most challenging courses at their school, whether it is Stanford or Kentucky? Not many. Harvard gives some extra cache over Duke in terms of reputation, but it doesn't provide very good basketball competition and for athletes given special admission at either school the cache is mostly fiction anyway.

That's not meant to predict what Carter will do. Maybe he's a genius with perfect scores. Maybe he wants to do something different, like Adonal Foyle. Foyle's guardians wanted him to stay home, but they also thought the pressure at a major basketball school would impact his education.

CrazyNotCrazie
11-14-2016, 08:56 AM
Good responses above. I think it also depends on your finances. I am fairly certain that Harvard cannot offer basketball scholarships. If you are eligible based on the criteria that every other Harvard student faces, you can get financial aid, which I believe is all grants at Harvard because of the size of its endowment. If you are very wealthy, Harvard tuition is not a problem. But if you are like many of us where you won't qualify for much aid but paying some or all of Harvard tuition will cause you to have to make some compromises, the full ride at Duke is worth a lot, especially over a few years. If you are good enough, there is a good chance you will earn many times that much money as a pro, but there are no guarantees. This also assumes that Harvard is 100% kosher in terms of giving out aid solely based on need for athletes - I have heard countless stories of Ivy League schools being much more generous with financial aid packages for athletes than for non-athletes with similar financial profiles.

Ichabod Drain
11-14-2016, 09:00 AM
2) while I'm sure Hah-vahd's facilities are excellent, Duke has what may be the best facilities and amenities available to players in the country


Have you seen those dorms at Kentucky and Kansas?

But that shouldn't factor in since the elephant in the room which is this thread is Wendell carter.

sagegrouse
11-14-2016, 09:13 AM
Good responses above. I think it also depends on your finances. I am fairly certain that Harvard cannot offer basketball scholarships. If you are eligible based on the criteria that every other Harvard student faces, you can get financial aid, which I believe is all grants at Harvard because of the size of its endowment. If you are very wealthy, Harvard tuition is not a problem. But if you are like many of us where you won't qualify for much aid but paying some or all of Harvard tuition will cause you to have to make some compromises, the full ride at Duke is worth a lot, especially over a few years. If you are good enough, there is a good chance you will earn many times that much money as a pro, but there are no guarantees. This also assumes that Harvard is 100% kosher in terms of giving out aid solely based on need for athletes - I have heard countless stories of Ivy League schools being much more generous with financial aid packages for athletes than for non-athletes with similar financial profiles.

The Harvard formula (https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/net-price-calculator?citizenship=USA&residence=CO) is very generous. If your parents earn $100K, they are expected to contribute only $5,000 towards your Harvard bill. At the same time, the student is expected to work during term and also in the summer (coaching at Tommy's summer camp?). It's not clear that there is a material difference between what Harvard will offer and what Duke can offer on an athletic scholarship.

What I have posted over the years criticizes the Ivy League for being hypocritical: athletes get huge preferences for admission, as long as they exceed the Ivy League minimums for academic admissions. The money is available for the best athletes, so I don't believe the "formulas" are necessarily followed in all cases.

budwom
11-14-2016, 09:25 AM
yeah, I never worry about the Ivies finding a way to admit athletes they really want...I personally went to school with two hockey players with SAT verbals in the low
400s, but alas, a place was found for them at Harvard. And I remember when Princeton grabbed a hoopster Duke couldn't touch (long time ago, of course)...(Brian Taylor...Duke assistant coach
Hubie Brown was very distraught)

flyingdutchdevil
11-14-2016, 09:31 AM
The Harvard formula (https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/net-price-calculator?citizenship=USA&residence=CO) is very generous. If your parents earn $100K, they are expected to contribute only $5,000 towards your Harvard bill. At the same time, the student is expected to work during term and also in the summer (coaching at Tommy's summer camp?). It's not clear that there is a material difference between what Harvard will offer and what Duke can offer on an athletic scholarship.

What I have posted over the years criticizes the Ivy League for being hypocritical: athletes get huge preferences for admission, as long as they exceed the Ivy League minimums for academic admissions. The money is available for the best athletes, so I don't believe the "formulas" are necessarily followed in all cases.

Furthermore, the Ivies tend to target students who aren't "privileged", ie whose parents don't make $100K a year (which is the vast majority of the United States). And, like you said, they are other "exceptions" that the Ivies take for players that they really want.

The main issue, IMO, is the level of competition themselves. If you want to prepare yourself for the next level of sport, you need to face good/great competition every game. The Ivies will not provide that, even with a robust non-conference schedule.

So, the Ivies will always get decent talent, but I don't think they will ever get the best talent.

CrazyNotCrazie
11-14-2016, 09:40 AM
The Harvard formula (https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/net-price-calculator?citizenship=USA&residence=CO) is very generous. If your parents earn $100K, they are expected to contribute only $5,000 towards your Harvard bill. At the same time, the student is expected to work during term and also in the summer (coaching at Tommy's summer camp?). It's not clear that there is a material difference between what Harvard will offer and what Duke can offer on an athletic scholarship.

What I have posted over the years criticizes the Ivy League for being hypocritical: athletes get huge preferences for admission, as long as they exceed the Ivy League minimums for academic admissions. The money is available for the best athletes, so I don't believe the "formulas" are necessarily followed in all cases.

I don't want to side track the thread too much into a discussion about financial aid. I agree that Harvard's formula is extremely generous, and their transparency is extremely helpful. But if you have been fiscally responsible and saved some money for college (or retirement), that seems to get held against you - The $100k a year example (I assumed it is in CO, where you live) assumes you have $0 in savings, which I think/hope is not realistic for someone making $100k a year with college aged kids so likely 20+ years in the labor force. If you are middle or upper middle class with any amount of savings, the family commitment will be a significant portion of your income - I calculated it based on my salary and savings here in NY (and they clearly adjust their expectations based on the higher cost of living here) and it was frightening, and my kids are very young - I could make it work, and I will make it work for my kids, but it will mean some major lifestyle compromises and pushing back retirement. If my kid was relatively indifferent between the schools on most other fronts and was comparing that vs. a full ride to Duke, I would be pushing very hard for Duke.

This all speaks to the theory that the population at the top schools is moving more and more towards the two extremes - those who get full rides and those who are so rich they don't care. Meanwhile, the vast majority of Duke's alumni, who are middle or upper middle class, have to really stretch to send their kids to their beloved alma mater.

kAzE
11-14-2016, 09:47 AM
If you were a very good basketball player with NBA potential but you committed that you would stay in school for 4 years or even 3 AND get your degree before you left school, would you choose Harvard or Duke ?


Have you seen those dorms at Kentucky and Kansas?

But that shouldn't factor in since the elephant in the room which is this thread is Wendell carter.

Has he really committed to getting his degree before he turns pro? I'd find that extremely hard to believe. I know he's very serious about his education, but guys like him rarely stay longer than a year.

rsvman
11-14-2016, 09:50 AM
You should probably post this question on the Harvard board and see what responses you get. ;)

duke79
11-14-2016, 10:14 AM
You should probably post this question on the Harvard board and see what responses you get. ;)

LOL, yea, I'd like to read what the students at Harvard would say !

Pghdukie
11-14-2016, 11:52 AM
A Duke degree,then an NBA career, then a Harvard Law Degree would be a full filling life !

SirIronDuke
11-14-2016, 02:54 PM
If this were my son I think the obvious choice is Notre Dame.

Fantastic academics
Stronger culture (Univ and teams) and stronger alumni network
Mike Brey - from Coach K tree and committed to NBA/talent development
A team still focused on whole-player development over 4 years versus OAD
Strong ACC competition
Storied past, but a place a strong player could be like Gene Banks and return to Glory

I really like Mike Brey and think he is the equal to any college coach in America. ND is a perfect fit for him and he is anxious to build the program and looking for kids the right "fit" for ND

ND culture supports the student-athlete as well or better than any other program. It has programs to allow student-athletes to experience a study abroad, an innovative idea Duke and Stanford are now copying (with David Rubenstein $).

As much as I love Duke and Coach K I am against the OAD and would want my son to have a real college experience in every way.

ehdg
11-14-2016, 03:00 PM
Can't go wrong with either school academically imo. Other then Coach K and the relationship you can have with him for life the other big thing imo opinion would be weather. Where would you rather spend your winters, Boston or Durham? Personally I'd pick Durham has it's not as cold and doesn't last as long. Plus you get hardly any snow where as in Cambridge you can get pounded with snow some winters!!

duke79
11-14-2016, 03:02 PM
If this were my son I think the obvious choice is Notre Dame.

Fantastic academics
Stronger culture (Univ and teams) and stronger alumni network
Mike Brey - from Coach K tree and committed to NBA/talent development
A team still focused on whole-player development over 4 years versus OAD
Strong ACC competition
Storied past, but a place a strong player could be like Gene Banks and return to Glory

I really like Mike Brey and think he is the equal to any college coach in America. ND is a perfect fit for him and he is anxious to build the program and looking for kids the right "fit" for ND

ND culture supports the student-athlete as well or better than any other program. It has programs to allow student-athletes to experience a study abroad, an innovative idea Duke and Stanford are now copying (with David Rubenstein $).

As much as I love Duke and Coach K I am against the OAD and would want my son to have a real college experience in every way.

Interesting perspective! You may be right about ND BUT much colder weather than Durham and I would take Cambridge over South Bend!

madscavenger
11-14-2016, 04:56 PM
Everyone here has a bias obviously, but I'd pick Duke. Not only do you get a world class education but:
1) you get coached by the GOAT
2) while I'm sure Hah-vahd's facilities are excellent, Duke has what may be the best facilities and amenities available to players in the country
3) the greater likelihood of a national championship
4) long term connections from being connected to coach K (who clearly has a lot of pull in the NBA) and the opportunity to delve into the Duke coaching dynasty if your NBA dreams don't work out/are cut short (this is probably a sub category of item 1)
5) why go to the Duke of the North when you can just go to Duke?

You forgot the absolute best fans, not to mention not having to board a plane to get the second best 'Que in the lower 48.

budwom
11-14-2016, 05:02 PM
If this were my son I think the obvious choice is Notre Dame.

Fantastic academics
Stronger culture (Univ and teams) and stronger alumni network
Mike Brey - from Coach K tree and committed to NBA/talent development
A team still focused on whole-player development over 4 years versus OAD
Strong ACC competition
Storied past, but a place a strong player could be like Gene Banks and return to Glory

I really like Mike Brey and think he is the equal to any college coach in America. ND is a perfect fit for him and he is anxious to build the program and looking for kids the right "fit" for ND

ND culture supports the student-athlete as well or better than any other program. It has programs to allow student-athletes to experience a study abroad, an innovative idea Duke and Stanford are now copying (with David Rubenstein $).

As much as I love Duke and Coach K I am against the OAD and would want my son to have a real college experience in every way.

Not to wade into this too deeply, but I think Brey would love to deal with OADs if he could consistently recruit them. I don't see him (Brey) being focused on "whole player development vs OAD," he just hasn't recruited
OADs as well as some others have.

MCFinARL
11-14-2016, 05:52 PM
If this were my son I think the obvious choice is Notre Dame.

Fantastic academics
Stronger culture (Univ and teams) and stronger alumni network
Mike Brey - from Coach K tree and committed to NBA/talent development
A team still focused on whole-player development over 4 years versus OAD
Strong ACC competition
Storied past, but a place a strong player could be like Gene Banks and return to Glory

I really like Mike Brey and think he is the equal to any college coach in America. ND is a perfect fit for him and he is anxious to build the program and looking for kids the right "fit" for ND

ND culture supports the student-athlete as well or better than any other program. It has programs to allow student-athletes to experience a study abroad, an innovative idea Duke and Stanford are now copying (with David Rubenstein $).

As much as I love Duke and Coach K I am against the OAD and would want my son to have a real college experience in every way.

Notre Dame is a fine school, and you make a good case for it in terms of what it offers while the student is there. To the extent one considers the name value going forward, though, it loses a little on both sides--doesn't carry quite the academic reputation of Harvard nor the basketball reputation of Duke. Of course, name value can be overrated, and it would be great if every student, athlete or not, chose the school that was the best fit for them, regardless of reputation. But often they don't.

Rudy
11-14-2016, 10:43 PM
Duke, because:

1. The basketball experience would be better.

2. Your status on campus would be way better. You will have more than 500 fans cheering for you consistently.

3. The weather is way better in NC than Mass, except in the summer when you won't be on campus anyway.

4. Duke is no slouch academically. If you're in the top 10, it won't matter in the long run.

5. The women are better looking.

Tappan Zee Devil
11-14-2016, 11:40 PM
Duke, because:

1. The basketball experience would be better.

2. Your status on campus would be way better. You will have more than 500 fans cheering for you consistently.

3. The weather is way better in NC than Mass, except in the summer when you won't be on campus anyway.

4. Duke is no slouch academically. If you're in the top 10, it won't matter in the long run.

5. The women are better looking.

I am a Duke grad (T'70) but I find all of your points except #1 not only false with untrue characterizations, but extremely patronizing from a weak basis.
My daughter graduated from Yale and my niece is presently at Yale, which isn't Harvard but is very comparable. There is a lot to be said for Yale (and thus (perhaps) for Harvard). It depends a lot on the person. Yale (or Harvard) was wrong for me - Duke was perfect. Yale was certainly a better match for my daughter - even though I wanted her to go to Duke. Yale is an extremely stimulating environment for someone whose interests are in the arts. You need to look at the person not at your prejudices - and your number 5 is just insulting to ALL women and completely inappropriate.

Oh - and by the way - the b'ball players are on campus during the summer(your #3)


We (Duke) are very good - but are not necessarily for everyone.

-jk
11-15-2016, 05:37 AM
I am a Duke grad (T'70) but I find all of your points except #1 not only false with untrue characterizations, but extremely patronizing from a weak basis.
My daughter graduated from Yale and my niece is presently at Yale, which isn't Harvard but is very comparable. There is a lot to be said for Yale (and thus (perhaps) for Harvard). It depends a lot on the person. Yale (or Harvard) was wrong for me - Duke was perfect. Yale was certainly a better match for my daughter - even though I wanted her to go to Duke. Yale is an extremely stimulating environment for someone whose interests are in the arts. You need to look at the person not at your prejudices - and your number 5 is just insulting to ALL women and completely inappropriate.

Oh - and by the way - the b'ball players are on campus during the summer(your #3)


We (Duke) are very good - but are not necessarily for everyone.

Please don't get too rational - you'll break the interwebs! ;)

-jk