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View Full Version : MBB (Exh): Duke 90, Va State 59 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
10-28-2016, 09:03 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

MarkD83
10-28-2016, 09:04 PM
Can I amend my minutes per game guesses?

There are a lot of players who "could" get a lot of playing time on this team.

Ichabod Drain
10-28-2016, 09:07 PM
Can I amend my minutes per game guesses?

There are a lot of players who "could" get a lot of playing time on this team.

Javin Delaurier - 40 mins

grossbus
10-28-2016, 09:09 PM
Was unable to watch until the last few minutes. Would love to see some impressions.

devildeac
10-28-2016, 09:10 PM
Do we need a vigil for Matt?

(kidding-sort of)

Devilwin
10-28-2016, 09:12 PM
And maybe Grayson too?

mo.st.dukie
10-28-2016, 09:14 PM
Bolden is going to have a big impact on this team. Not the most explosive athlete but he's long and seems fairly comfortable in the post and in traffic. Most importantly, he seems to have good shot blocking ability which will be nice with our pressure defense.

It took Frank Jackson a while to settle into the game. He really struggled early on with turnovers and missing shots but in the last 10 minutes showed a much better ability to run the offense and get his points.

Grayson and Amile were pretty quiet. There wasn't a ton of drives from Allen and the ones he had were a bit awkward, although he had a really nice drive and dish to Bolden for a dunk. We know what we can get from both of these guys, they're just working themselves back into the flow.

Luke did exactly what I was anticipating from him, just a dominant scoring performance. He has the ability to take over games. Could be one of the more underrated players nationally. What's crazy is that we will have this kid coming off the bench if and when all our guys are healthy.

DukeDevil
10-28-2016, 09:14 PM
My takeaway on that breakaway is that Delaurier can really play. Really really enjoyed watching his game.

grossbus
10-28-2016, 09:14 PM
Why??? What happened?

mgtr
10-28-2016, 09:15 PM
Well, it is the first game, and an exhibition game, and players are injured or otherwise out. But, I was surprised by the performance of some players, and will have to rethink my ideas about playing time. Could be an interesting season.

devildeac
10-28-2016, 09:16 PM
And maybe Grayson too?

That'd be more vigils than MBB threads :( .

Maybe.

Troublemaker
10-28-2016, 09:18 PM
Do we need a vigil for Matt?

(kidding-sort of)


And maybe Grayson too?

On the postgame show, Coach said Matt had a "tight hamstring" and they didn't want to fool around so sat him out. Grayson had a "sore shoulder" after his latest in-game bump so he was held out the final 8 minutes. Both sound minor and precautionary.

richardjackson199
10-28-2016, 09:18 PM
Why??? What happened?

I think both guys are fine. No need for any acute stress reactions or vigils. Grayson just likes to hit the floor a lot as usual. He did not look injured - just a bump. I didn't see what happened with Matt, but most folks seem to think it was very minor and precautionary.

DukeDevil
10-28-2016, 09:19 PM
Both sound minor and precautionary.

It's all over.

richardjackson199
10-28-2016, 09:19 PM
Jinx!

6th Man
10-28-2016, 09:22 PM
It's absurd to watch this game and realize Tatum and Giles will be incorporated back in to the mix. I was hoping Delaurier would be what he was tonight. Such a nice complimentary player. Bolden will be a great post presence. Jackson is ultimately going to be a stud. Pretty insane group of talent. Kennard's game looks outstanding so far. He played well in the blue-white game, apparently scored 44 in the pro day scrimmage and 30 tonight. We know what Allen and Jefferson are. If Tatum and Giles live up to the hype...insane!!!

dukelifer
10-28-2016, 09:23 PM
Javin Delaurier - 40 mins

I like his game. Has a little Winslow in him. Natural defender, bouncy and good anticipation.

Newton_14
10-28-2016, 09:26 PM
I think both guys are fine. No need for any acute stress reactions or vigils. Grayson just likes to hit the floor a lot as usual. He did not look injured - just a bump. I didn't see what happened with Matt, but most folks seem to think it was very minor and precautionary.

They took Matt out initially to deal with some bleeding the ref spotted and he just never came back in. Grayson took several shots/hits to his shoulder, and after the last one which happened on a drive and score at the rim, they just took him out and sat him. He's fine. Not worried about him or Matt.

53n206
10-28-2016, 09:30 PM
I remember how much we look forward to Luke Kennard's playing when he signed. He wasn't as good last year as we had hoped. But I don't think that anyone gave up on the promise that he showed.

Edouble
10-28-2016, 09:32 PM
Javin Delaurier - 40 mins

Huh? Tonight? That's impossible. He didn't start the game.

arnie
10-28-2016, 09:36 PM
Huh? Tonight? That's impossible. He didn't start the game.

He's predicting future mpg. Probably good guess if all the injured stay that way.

mgtr
10-28-2016, 09:47 PM
I don't suppose we will be able to start 8-9 players when all are healthy, so it could be a bottleneck of players going into and coming out of the game. Should be exciting.

devilnfla
10-28-2016, 10:05 PM
Based on tonight, Javin moves ahead of Jeter on bench.

mgtr
10-28-2016, 10:07 PM
Based on tonight, Javin moves ahead of Jeter on bench.

Do they really play the same position? (Yah,yah, Duke doesn't play positions).

DU82
10-28-2016, 10:28 PM
I think both guys are fine. No need for any acute stress reactions or vigils. Grayson just likes to hit the floor a lot as usual. He did not look injured - just a bump. I didn't see what happened with Matt, but most folks seem to think it was very minor and precautionary.

Grayson looked hurt both times he landed on his shoulder. I really don't think he's fine. But hopefully not serious.

jipops
10-28-2016, 10:33 PM
Do they really play the same position? (Yah,yah, Duke doesn't play positions).

Well no, but Javin is up to about 6-9 now making an Amile-Javin front court a plausible scenario if Tatum is out and Bolden is in foul trouble. I personally feel like Javin shows lots of promise for future seasons, but we're just not going to see much of him once real games begin this season. He doesn't have much of any game on the perimeter and there is no post game to speak of. He is a very good athlete who already shows ability on D.

Kennard was very sharp tonight and I'm pleasantly surprised with how well Bolden runs the floor. Marques looked pretty comfortable out there. He's going to be an asset on the boards.

Right now our true impact players in the front court are Bolden, Jefferson, and Tatum. Those are the guys that are going to play when real games start. Jeter will get spot duty at best. Jackson, Allen, Kennard, and Jones round out the perimeter. So I essentially see a 7 player rotation. All the talk of having so much depth is not entirely true. And I'm still not holding my breath for Giles. It's still a very talented group though.

jimsumner
10-28-2016, 10:56 PM
K said after the game that Jones had a tight hamstring and was held out as a precaution.

Should be fine. But we all know that hamstring injuries can be persistent. Lots of treatment in the next few days.

Allen seemed fine in the locker room and assured me that he was fine. He didn't have anything on ice or anything like that.

K spent a fair amount of the postgame talking about Allen's propensity for getting knocked down. Says he and Allen are going to look at film and see if they can find ways for him to play safely without compromising his fundamental strengths. Easier said than done I suspect.

Furniture
10-28-2016, 11:15 PM
Huh? Tonight? That's impossible. He didn't start the game.

It's just an optimistic prediction.

FerryFor50
10-28-2016, 11:15 PM
Based on tonight, Javin moves ahead of Jeter on bench.

Eh... I dunno about that. They both looked pretty good, and both had some awkward moments on offense.

DeLaurier has some great anticipation, especially protecting the rim. He also looks better as a freshman than Jeter did. But sophomore Jeter looks stronger and more confident.

K generally favors his upper class guys, especially when there isn't a huge talent or effort disparity. I think we'll see more Jeter over the course of the season unless Jeter starts to do freshman Jeter things.

Sixthman
10-28-2016, 11:45 PM
Generally, the freshmen looked ahead of where you might expect on defense, though way behind the veterans. It will be fun watching the guys find their roles as the season plays on. I think we will see guys like Luke go for 30 and then next game tally 8 and the difference will not be note worthy. Basically, there are a lot of guys who can score. I was hopeful that Chase Jeter would look a lot more effective with the ball. He looked more comfortable on the floor, but not effective finishing if given any resistance. On the other hand, he looked very good passing the ball and was able to play significant minutes without foul trouble. Grayson never found a groove. Amile did not attempt to be a scorer tonight, but was consistent on defense, rebounded well and brought the ball up court (by design) several times. It seemed as if the plan was for Luke to bring the ball up court most of the time, and he did this frequently even when Jackson was in the game. There were a lot of nice entry passes to mid and low post situations -- it looks like they've really been working on this. Bolden has good footwork and positioning. Was pretty effective. I have not checked the stats, but it seemed like our big guys shot pretty well from the free throw line generally. Javin DeLaurier made some exiting plays on the court, but he blew the doors off of the post game radio interview. The young man was articulate, genuine, at ease, and, generally speaking, not prone to overuse of cliché. I would compare his skills in the post game interview to the master -- Shane Battier.

brevity
10-29-2016, 02:03 AM
K spent a fair amount of the postgame talking about Allen's propensity for getting knocked down.

Coach K: "As the poet said, and maybe I'm paraphrasing, he has a propensity for getting knocked down, but he reascends, and no opponent will leave him prostrate."

Pissing the night away...

NSDukeFan
10-29-2016, 05:18 AM
I remember how much we look forward to Luke Kennard's playing when he signed. He wasn't as good last year as we had hoped. But I don't think that anyone gave up on the promise that he showed.

Luke was everything I hoped for last year and had a great freshman season. Sometimes, freshmen become sophomores and he will be a fun one to watch.

devilnfla
10-29-2016, 06:50 AM
Eh... I dunno about that. They both looked pretty good, and both had some awkward moments on offense.

DeLaurier has some great anticipation, especially protecting the rim. He also looks better as a freshman than Jeter did. But sophomore Jeter looks stronger and more confident.

K generally favors his upper class guys, especially when there isn't a huge talent or effort disparity. I think we'll see more Jeter over the course of the season unless Jeter starts to do freshman Jeter things.

I don't disagree with anything you said other than the 1st paragraph. Jeter was weak last night. The only thing I thought he did better at was hitting his FTs. I did not think Jeter looked good except on the one wide open dunk that Jackson set up.

devildeac
10-29-2016, 07:26 AM
Coach K: "As the poet said, and maybe I'm paraphrasing, he has a propensity for getting knocked down, but he reascends, and no opponent will leave him prostrate."

Pissing the night away...

Don't pay any attention to this poster. He's just thumping his own tub...

MChambers
10-29-2016, 08:22 AM
It was pretty strange to see a frontline of Jefferson, Delaurier, and one of Jeter/Bolden, in the second half. With Tatum and Jones out, Duke really couldn't go small. Not going to stretch the floor with that group.

Troublemaker
10-29-2016, 08:30 AM
Luke was everything I hoped for last year and had a great freshman season. Sometimes, freshmen become sophomores and he will be a fun one to watch.

In the postgame presser, Coach K said that Luke has probably played the best out of everyone since Duke started practice.

That said, it does sound like Coach's intention is to begin the season with a starting lineup of Jones-Allen-Tatum-Jefferson-Bolden. That was the sense I got from watching that presser.

If so, I'm sure Luke will come off the bench for big minutes and be a threat for 6th man of the year. He'll be our Ginobili.

devildeac
10-29-2016, 09:00 AM
Coach K: "As the poet said, and maybe I'm paraphrasing, he has a propensity for getting knocked down, but he reascends, and no opponent will leave him prostrate."

Pissing the night away...


Don't pay any attention to this poster. He's just thumping his own tub...

Just so no one takes my post the wrong way/or as insulting to brevity, perhaps a bit of clarification is in order:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H5uWRjFsGc

:o ;)

dukelifer
10-29-2016, 10:17 AM
In the postgame presser, Coach K said that Luke has probably played the best out of everyone since Duke started practice.

That said, it does sound like Coach's intention is to begin the season with a starting lineup of Jones-Allen-Tatum-Jefferson-Bolden. That was the sense I got from watching that presser.

If so, I'm sure Luke will come off the bench for big minutes and be a threat for 6th man of the year. He'll be our Ginobili.

He may not start games but he will be there at the end. The kid has a lot of confidence in his game.

duke74
10-29-2016, 10:20 AM
Just so no one takes my post the wrong way/or as insulting to brevity, perhaps a bit of clarification is in order:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H5uWRjFsGc

:o ;)

No worries - the cognoscenti got it. :)

DukieInBrasil
10-29-2016, 10:36 AM
I watched the replay and saw the following:
Bolden is a good shot blocker and has very good presence around the rim.
Frank was very shaky early but settled down and did a lot of good things.
Luke was an excellent scorer and played under control, game ball goes to him.
Grayson lined up some good 3s but his left arm was an issue that affected his ability to drive all night.
I agree with those who think that Javin may surpass Jeter. Chase doesn't really have a feel for the offensive side, still. He is springy, blocked shots got boards etc. His experience is a plus and if he can focus better he'll keep his "spot in the rotation".
Amile didn't look like was concerned with offense and when he went for some scores he was kinda outta control. He rebounded and defended well.
Jones didn't do anything. Jack White did do much. Vrank (the Tank) got in and didn't show much.

Good to get those first game jitters outta the way.

Troublemaker
10-29-2016, 10:55 AM
I like the zone press. I think Coach K's plan is to use it the entire game once we have everyone healthy. Even on possessions when we don't force turnovers, which is the vast majority of them, we're still eating shot clock and wearing down the opponent a little bit both mentally and physically. The zone press, of course, became a staple of Duke's 2015 championship team towards the end of the season. And last season's champ Villanova used the zone press a lot as well. I think if you have very good athletes and at least 3 guys off the bench you can depend on, the zone press should always be considered.

Olympic Fan
10-29-2016, 11:45 AM
Pardon the late post -- I got back late last night and was too tired to post. But my observations:

-- Good news bad news: Jayson was wearing the dreaded boot ... Harry way not.

-- Not sure how much we can learn about the rotation and combinations in this game. Not only were Tatum and Giles out (along with Obi), losing Matt Jones three minutes in was extremely disruptive. Then losing Grayson twice -- he missed the end of the first half with a shoulder injury, returned in the second half, then went out again. K said afterwards that they were playing a lot of combinations that they never practiced and that hurt -- especially the youngers.

-- Indeed, Frank Jackson really struggled in the first half. He made some terrible decisions with the ball. Bolden was a bit tentative in the first half, as was DeLaurier. They all played better in the second half -- Jackson and Bolden played much, MUCH better and DeLaurier showed why he's going to get minutes this year -- he may be the fastest Duke big man I've ever seen.

-- I was focused on Allen after his uncharacteristic bad game at CTC. And he didn't start well. He spent the first half floating around the perimeter, looking for the 3. He hit a few, but he never attacked the basket. He was very much the old Grayson Allen in the second half -- attacking, drawing fouls (even some that weren't called). Glad to hear his injury wasn't serious.

-- It might have been because of the injuries, but K played much of the game with a big lineup that featured some combination of Bolden, Jeter, DeLaurier and Jefferson playing along the frontline.

-- 13 blocked shots! If it were a real game, that would be the fifth most of all time. Bolden had five -- Jefferson, DeLaurier and Jeter had two each. When we add Giles, the shot-block potential will skyrocket. The school single-game record of 18 (set in 2004) will be in jeopardy.

-- Rebounding was surprising bad in the first half. The smaller SC State kids were constantly beating our guys to the long rebounds. That changed in the second half as Duke dominated the boards on both ends of the floor.

-- K said he's giving his team two days off to heal up before resuming practice Monday. We ought to have Grayson and Matt back for the Augustana game next Friday. Tatum and Giles will still be out.

mgtr
10-29-2016, 11:57 AM
Olympic Fan - Excellent summary of the game. Agree particularly with regard to DeLaurier -- could make an impact on the team this year.

jimsumner
10-29-2016, 02:53 PM
Pardon the late post -- I got back late last night and was too tired to post. But my observations:

-- Good news bad news: Jayson was wearing the dreaded boot ... Harry way not.

-- Not sure how much we can learn about the rotation and combinations in this game. Not only were Tatum and Giles out (along with Obi), losing Matt Jones three minutes in was extremely disruptive. Then losing Grayson twice -- he missed the end of the first half with a shoulder injury, returned in the second half, then went out again. K said afterwards that they were playing a lot of combinations that they never practiced and that hurt -- especially the youngers.

-- Indeed, Frank Jackson really struggled in the first half. He made some terrible decisions with the ball. Bolden was a bit tentative in the first half, as was DeLaurier. They all played better in the second half -- Jackson and Bolden played much, MUCH better and DeLaurier showed why he's going to get minutes this year -- he may be the fastest Duke big man I've ever seen.

-- I was focused on Allen after his uncharacteristic bad game at CTC. And he didn't start well. He spent the first half floating around the perimeter, looking for the 3. He hit a few, but he never attacked the basket. He was very much the old Grayson Allen in the second half -- attacking, drawing fouls (even some that weren't called). Glad to hear his injury wasn't serious.

-- It might have been because of the injuries, but K played much of the game with a big lineup that featured some combination of Bolden, Jeter, DeLaurier and Jefferson playing along the frontline.

-- 13 blocked shots! If it were a real game, that would be the fifth most of all time. Bolden had five -- Jefferson, DeLaurier and Jeter had two each. When we add Giles, the shot-block potential will skyrocket. The school single-game record of 18 (set in 2004) will be in jeopardy.

-- Rebounding was surprising bad in the first half. The smaller SC State kids were constantly beating our guys to the long rebounds. That changed in the second half as Duke dominated the boards on both ends of the floor.

-- K said he's giving his team two days off to heal up before resuming practice Monday. We ought to have Grayson and Matt back for the Augustana game next Friday. Tatum and Giles will still be out.

For the sake of accuracy, it should be noted that it was the smaller Virginia State kids who were getting to the long rebounds. SC State is a D-1 school in the MEAC.

K suggested after the game that some freshmen nerves were involved. Standing around and taking it in.

Virginia State is a curious team. By my count they have 12 players with experience at a college other than Virginia State. Some jucos and community colleges but also schools like Radford.

markbdevil
10-29-2016, 06:13 PM
Anyone else have trouble hearing the PA announcer? I've been going to games in Cameron for over 40 years and I couldn't make out what the PA announcer said most of the time. Several people around me said the same thing. My seats are in the south end zone. I'm old, but not that old that I'm losing my hearing.

DU82
10-29-2016, 06:45 PM
Anyone else have trouble hearing the PA announcer? I've been going to games in Cameron for over 40 years and I couldn't make out what the PA announcer said most of the time. Several people around me said the same thing. My seats are in the south end zone. I'm old, but not that old that I'm losing my hearing.

We said the same thing, also in the south end zone. Didn't know the new PA announcer used to be Charlie Brown's teacher.

markbdevil
10-29-2016, 07:03 PM
We said the same thing, also in the south end zone. Didn't know the new PA announcer used to be Charlie Brown's teacher.

Too funny! That's exactly what it sounded like. I sent an email to the athletic department and those in charge of facilities. If ticket prices are going to continue to rise each year, at least I should be able to understand the PA announcer. Miss Art Chandler!

Indoor66
10-29-2016, 07:09 PM
Too funny! That's exactly what it sounded like. I sent an email to the athletic department and those in charge of facilities. If ticket prices are going to continue to rise each year, at least I should be able to understand the PA announcer. Miss Art Chandler!

Here Comes Duke!

PallasAthena
10-29-2016, 11:46 PM
Anyone else have trouble hearing the PA announcer? I've been going to games in Cameron for over 40 years and I couldn't make out what the PA announcer said most of the time. Several people around me said the same thing. My seats are in the south end zone. I'm old, but not that old that I'm losing my hearing.

We couldn't hear a thing in Section 3. People sitting around us agreed.

Billy Dat
10-30-2016, 10:48 PM
We couldn't hear a thing in Section 3. People sitting around us agreed.

Allow me to pile on. I was at Duke Basketball Camp with my sons and the PA was so bad I couldn't hear any of the speakers on any night, I complained to the manager's every night. I said, "If you practically kill yourselves to sprint to the locker room and mop sweat while besuited, you deserve an arena with a clear PA"

plimnko
10-31-2016, 06:36 AM
i understood charlie brown's teacher better than i understood what was being said over the pa system. it's been bad in the past, but friday night was even worse than usual.

whereinthehellami
10-31-2016, 08:48 AM
Kennard was fantastic. Spent a fair amount of time just watching him and he gets it, has a nose for the ball. Got 6 boards and is not afraid to get inside and mix it up. That quarter court pass to the streaking Jeter was a thing of beauty. With that said Kennard does get beat off the dribble a fair amount. Just doesn't have quick enough feet for defense. Impressive scoring for having an off night shooting. He chased 3 3-pointers as soon as he shot them, knowing that they were off, was weird to see.

Allen had 4 TOs and Jackson had 5. They both have to do better. TOs are a big time achilles heal right now. Jackson made some really bad decisions with the ball, there were a number of passes that should have been TOs as he passed a teammate the ball in a really tight spot. At this point, Kennard does the best job of setting up teammates in a position to score.

Weird game from Jefferson. Glue guy type game, got 10 boards. But there really wasn't any offense, he is capable of more and I was expecting to see the senior step it up on that end a little. It will be interesting to see this play out, over the next couple of games. I don't know that Duke needs Jefferson to score but he has that ability and has worked hard on developing some skills.

That play by DeLaurier was beautiful; a block, a steal, and an athletic/explosive dunk. There was a lot of promise in that one play. Amazing instincts, reflexes, athleticism, and confidence.

Indoor66
10-31-2016, 08:52 AM
Many of the turnovers were, IMO, the result of learning to play together. The worst ones were the takeaways from turning into the defense with the ball exposed to a swipe or grab.

Ichabod Drain
10-31-2016, 08:57 AM
Weird game from Jefferson. Glue guy type game, got 10 boards. But there really wasn't any offense, he is capable of more and I was expecting to see the senior step it up on that end a little. It will be interesting to see this play out, over the next couple of games. I don't know that Duke needs Jefferson to score but he has that ability and has worked hard on developing some skills.


He did have four assists so he was generating some offense. In our regular offense I'm not sure how much Jefferson will score but I do expect him to be able to set up other players and he should be able to get 2-3 buckets a night simply off of offensive boards and putbacks.

budwom
10-31-2016, 09:14 AM
Anyone else have trouble hearing the PA announcer? I've been going to games in Cameron for over 40 years and I couldn't make out what the PA announcer said most of the time. Several people around me said the same thing. My seats are in the south end zone. I'm old, but not that old that I'm losing my hearing.

The PA announcer I do NOT have trouble hearing is Screaming Man at the football games. Nice enthusiasm, man, but could you tone it down a notch or three?
I hate being shouted at....as an old fart, I should have trouble hearing him....instead, I can hear him two miles away. Is he paid by the decibel?

elvis14
10-31-2016, 10:28 AM
He did have four assists so he was generating some offense. In our regular offense I'm not sure how much Jefferson will score but I do expect him to be able to set up other players and he should be able to get 2-3 buckets a night simply off of offensive boards and putbacks.

I don't think we need Amile to be constantly looking for his shot. But he's a very capable scorer when he wants to be and with all the scoring options on this team, Amile needs to look for his shot enough to make other teams respect him. This will not just allow him to score more points but should allow him to get more assists and raise the overall effectiveness of the offense.

flyingdutchdevil
10-31-2016, 10:55 AM
I don't think we need Amile to be constantly looking for his shot. But he's a very capable scorer when he wants to be and with all the scoring options on this team, Amile needs to look for his shot enough to make other teams respect him. This will not just allow him to score more points but should allow him to get more assists and raise the overall effectiveness of the offense.

I disagree. Having Amile being aggressive early sends the signal that this is not a guy you can back off on and double Grayson/Jayson/Harry/ Luyke (he needs a 'y' in his first name).

Amile will always get offensive rebounds, 2nd chance points, and drop-pass buckets, but I want him to back down smaller 4s, drive if a lane emerges, and even attempt a few mid-rangers if he's comfortable. That would free up space for Grayson to do what Grayson does best: drive.

Amile is likely diverting attention to his teammates right now, but I'm confident that Coach K will tell Amile to be very aggressive once we face Kansas.

sagegrouse
10-31-2016, 10:58 AM
I disagree. Having Amile being aggressive early sends the signal that this is not a guy you can back off on and double Grayson/Jayson/Harry/ Luyke (he needs a 'y' in his first name).

Amile will always get offensive rebounds, 2nd chance points, and drop-pass buckets, but I want him to back down smaller 4s, drive if a lane emerges, and even attempt a few mid-rangers if he's comfortable. That would free up space for Grayson to do what Grayson does best: drive.

Amile is likely diverting attention to his teammates right now, but I'm confident that Coach K will tell Amile to be very aggressive once we face Kansas.

Amile showed no offense against Virginia State. Really? "No offense," Amile, but I am thinking of jumping to a conclusion that you will be a rebounder and glue guy, not a star on the team. Of course, you can prove me wrong, and I would love it!

flyingdutchdevil
10-31-2016, 11:35 AM
Amile showed no offense against Virginia State. Really? "No offense," Amile, but I am thinking of jumping to a conclusion that you will be a rebounder and glue guy, not a star on the team. Of course, you can prove me wrong, and I would love it!

When did I say that Amile showed no offense against VSU? Very confused by your post...

Kedsy
10-31-2016, 11:39 AM
I disagree. Having Amile being aggressive early sends the signal that this is not a guy you can back off on and double Grayson/Jayson/Harry/ Luyke (he needs a 'y' in his first name).

Amile will always get offensive rebounds, 2nd chance points, and drop-pass buckets, but I want him to back down smaller 4s, drive if a lane emerges, and even attempt a few mid-rangers if he's comfortable. That would free up space for Grayson to do what Grayson does best: drive.

Amile is likely diverting attention to his teammates right now, but I'm confident that Coach K will tell Amile to be very aggressive once we face Kansas.

I thought Amile showed a lot of offense, in a Draymond Green sort of way. He just didn't take a lot of shots. He had 4 assists to 1 turnover, better numbers than any of our guards, and he even took the ball upcourt a few times and initiated the offense.

I didn't think he "divert[ed] attention to his teammates" at all. I thought he aggressively took control at times, and got his teammates involved. To me, there's a difference.

ChillinDuke
10-31-2016, 11:48 AM
I thought Amile showed a lot of offense, in a Draymond Green sort of way. He just didn't take a lot of shots. He had 4 assists to 1 turnover, better numbers than any of our guards, and he even took the ball upcourt a few times and initiated the offense.

I didn't think he "divert[ed] attention to his teammates" at all. I thought he aggressively took control at times, and got his teammates involved. To me, there's a difference.

I saw what you saw.

I will reiterate my same point from after Countdown, but now 2 "scrimmages" worth of data hint at Amile playing on the perimeter, at least on offense. This is interesting to me for two reasons: (1) It allows us to play two "big men" that aren't named Amile along with Amile. This is a lineup I, and probably many others, never gave a second thought during the offseason. I'm going to reserve judgment on my thoughts on such a lineup at this time. (2) It begs the question, does Amile have a jumpshot? Because he assuredly has the other things you'd want of someone out there: ball handling, knowledge of the offense, court vision, good passing. All four of those traits have been on clear display over these first snippets of game action. If he doesn't have a jumpshot, I worry that this gameplan could get exposed down the road. If he does, I fear for every other team in America.

- Chillin

flyingdutchdevil
10-31-2016, 11:48 AM
I thought Amile showed a lot of offense, in a Draymond Green sort of way. He just didn't take a lot of shots. He had 4 assists to 1 turnover, better numbers than any of our guards, and he even took the ball upcourt a few times and initiated the offense.

I didn't think he "divert[ed] attention to his teammates" at all. I thought he aggressively took control at times, and got his teammates involved. To me, there's a difference.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I do think that Amile needs to take more shots. Drayson takes a fair amount of shots (11 per game last year per 34 mins). I wouldn't expect Amile to take that many shots, but 6-9 (he averaged 6.7 last year) would be very appropriate. I expect him to hit that range during tough games and ACC play.

flyingdutchdevil
10-31-2016, 11:50 AM
I saw what you saw.

I will reiterate my same point from after Countdown, but now 2 "scrimmages" worth of data hint at Amile playing on the perimeter, at least on offense. This is interesting to me for two reasons: (1) It allows us to play two "big men" that aren't named Amile along with Amile. This is a lineup I, and probably many others, never gave a second thought during the offseason. I'm going to reserve judgment on my thoughts on such a lineup at this time. (2) It begs the question, does Amile have a jumpshot? Because he assuredly has the other things you'd want of someone out there: ball handling, knowledge of the offense, court vision, good passing. All four of those traits have been on clear display over these first snippets of game action. If he doesn't have a jumpshot, I worry that this gameplan could get exposed down the road. If he does, I fear for every other team in America.

- Chillin

Once Harry and Jayson are reintroduced, I fear for every other team in America. Amile with a reliable mid-range just isn't fair. Calipari may motion for at least one Duke starter to play with only one arm.

Ichabod Drain
10-31-2016, 11:52 AM
Once Harry and Jayson are reintroduced, I fear for every other team in America. Amile with a reliable mid-range just isn't fair. Calipari may motion for at least one Duke starter to play with only one arm.

Only if Fox has to play on one leg. Kid is scary fast.

elvis14
10-31-2016, 11:53 AM
I don't think we need Amile to be constantly looking for his shot. But he's a very capable scorer when he wants to be and with all the scoring options on this team, Amile needs to look for his shot enough to make other teams respect him. This will not just allow him to score more points but should allow him to get more assists and raise the overall effectiveness of the offense.


I disagree. Having Amile being aggressive early sends the signal that this is not a guy you can back off on and double Grayson/Jayson/Harry/ Luyke (he needs a 'y' in his first name).

FDD, I think we are actually in agreement here. I think we are saying the same thing different ways. When I say he "needs to look for his shot enough to make other teams respect him" and you say being aggressive "sends the signal that this is not a guy you can back off on and double...". I think we are really in agreement.

flyingdutchdevil
10-31-2016, 11:57 AM
FDD, I think we are actually in agreement here. I think we are saying the same thing different ways. When I say he "needs to look for his shot enough to make other teams respect him" and you say being aggressive "sends the signal that this is not a guy you can back off on and double...". I think we are really in agreement.

Lol. My bad then.

sagegrouse
10-31-2016, 12:10 PM
When did I say that Amile showed no offense against VSU? Very confused by your post...

Easy there, big guy! I was making my own points and just happened to link your post because both dealt with Amile.

I thought Amile showed no offensive capability against a Div. II team. Not good, IMHO (where ya' gotta give me back my H, FDD). I hope he shows a lot more in the next few games/exhibitions. Otherwise, it will really hurt the team until (and unless) Harry Giles becomes available. I suppose it has "minutes" implications as well -- if Amile and Matt are both "glue guys," we probably don't need both on the floor together.

Kedsy
10-31-2016, 12:31 PM
I suppose it has "minutes" implications as well -- if Amile and Matt are both "glue guys," we probably don't need both on the floor together.

I disagree. Amile and Matt are our two best defensive players, two best communicators, and two best leaders. Even if "all" Amile does on offense is clean up the offensive boards (which I've already said I don't think is true) and "all" Matt does on offense is hit open threes, how much more offense do you need if your other three offensive players are some combination of Grayson/Jayson/Harry/Luke/Frank?

So while I don't think there's an urgent need for the two of them to be on the floor together, I think if you look at both sides of the ball, the two of them on the floor together will probably be among our best combinations.

MChambers
10-31-2016, 12:36 PM
I disagree. Amile and Matt are our two best defensive players, two best communicators, and two best leaders. Even if "all" Amile does on offense is clean up the offensive boards (which I've already said I don't think is true) and "all" Matt does on offense is hit open threes, how much more offense do you need if your other three offensive players are some combination of Grayson/Jayson/Harry/Luke/Frank?

So while I don't think there's an urgent need for the two of them to be on the floor together, I think if you look at both sides of the ball, the two of them on the floor together will probably be among our best combinations.

I absolutely agree with this. This team's ceiling will be determined by how well it plays defense, and Matt and Amile will be key to that.

flyingdutchdevil
10-31-2016, 12:39 PM
I absolutely agree with this. This team's ceiling will be determined by how well it plays defense, and Matt and Amile will be key to that.

Yuppers. I'm not worried about offense, given 95% of our team is healthy (or healthy enough).

It's all about defense in terms of improvement. And Amile/Jones are, by far, our best defensive options. As a matter of fact, I don't think there is anyone near them in terms of defensive value. I think Bolden and Giles are the next best, but there will be a learning curve.

COYS
10-31-2016, 12:44 PM
Easy there, big guy! I was making my own points and just happened to link your post because both dealt with Amile.

I thought Amile showed no offensive capability against a Div. II team. Not good, IMHO (where ya' gotta give me back my H, FDD). I hope he shows a lot more in the next few games/exhibitions. Otherwise, it will really hurt the team until (and unless) Harry Giles becomes available. I suppose it has "minutes" implications as well -- if Amile and Matt are both "glue guys," we probably don't need both on the floor together.

I'm not all that worried about this one exhibition. We've seen Amile put up double digits sporadically over his first three seasons before averaging a double double during his time last year before his injury. I think we know he can be a capable third/fourth option who is certainly talented enough to be more than just an afterthought for opposing defenses.

I think we got to see him try some new stuff out in the exhibition that we hadn't seen before. He handled the ball a lot more. He showed an ability to distribute (4 assists to 1 turnover . . . not bad at all). He did a little of this in the B/W scrimmage, as well. Given that we also heard reports from the summer that say that Amile has been working on his ball handling and distribution, it seems clear that the staff wants to test out his ability to take on more of a play-making role. Amile didn't attack the basket much, save for one admittedly ugly drive that resulted in a badly missed layup, but he did face up, take a dribble or two in from the perimeter to engage his defender, and then make a nice pass to an open teammate. Since Amile hasn't suddenly developed three point range, this is another way for him to spread the floor without needing to take a lot of long two-point jumpers. I think it will be essential for him to do this to space the floor if he's going to be on the court alongside Harry, Marques, and Chase for long stretches, even if it's just a secondary or tertiary option for starting the offense.

Also, I seriously doubt we see Amile this far away from the basket all that often during the regular season, as I also doubt we'll see lineups with three of our forwards (not counting Jayson) on the court at the same time. I took that as a quirk of the staff being cautious with Matt and Grayson and having both Harry and Jayson out for the entire game. The fact that Amile was frequently on the court with two non-ball-handlers like Javin, Marques, Chase, and even Jack meant that he spent a lot of time as the nominal "three" on offense, which took him away from the basket where he is most comfortable scoring but also gave him a chance to get some experience handling the ball and being a distributor, more. Just having Jayson back and Matt and Grayson playing normal minutes probably means Amile pretty much NEVER has to be the nominal "three" on offense again for the rest of the season.

DU82
10-31-2016, 12:54 PM
The PA announcer I do NOT have trouble hearing is Screaming Man at the football games. Nice enthusiasm, man, but could you tone it down a notch or three?
I hate being shouted at...as an old fart, I should have trouble hearing him...instead, I can hear him two miles away. Is he paid by the decibel?

His wife sits in front of us. My understanding is that the messages/method is his direction. Actually a bit mild compared to others (State, Louisville for instance.)

Regarding Cameron, I was in the bleachers yesterday across from the Duke bench for the women's B/W scrimmage. Couldn't understand the PA system there, either.

superdave
10-31-2016, 01:01 PM
I saw what you saw.

I will reiterate my same point from after Countdown, but now 2 "scrimmages" worth of data hint at Amile playing on the perimeter, at least on offense. This is interesting to me for two reasons: (1) It allows us to play two "big men" that aren't named Amile along with Amile. This is a lineup I, and probably many others, never gave a second thought during the offseason. I'm going to reserve judgment on my thoughts on such a lineup at this time. (2) It begs the question, does Amile have a jumpshot? Because he assuredly has the other things you'd want of someone out there: ball handling, knowledge of the offense, court vision, good passing. All four of those traits have been on clear display over these first snippets of game action. If he doesn't have a jumpshot, I worry that this gameplan could get exposed down the road. If he does, I fear for every other team in America.

- Chillin

I have not seen this team yet this year. But my question to this is - Would Amile on the perimeter more likely be Amile doing high post stuff? Between the elbows and filling the hole vs zone defense? Or is he going to be dribbling as much as you seem to be saying?

jimsumner
10-31-2016, 01:28 PM
With Tatum out and Jones out after the first three minutes, Duke was playing some pretty funky lineups. I suspect we won't see a Bolden/Jefferson/DeLaurier frontcourt all that often this season.

Newton_14
10-31-2016, 08:00 PM
With Tatum out and Jones out after the first three minutes, Duke was playing some pretty funky lineups. I suspect we won't see a Bolden/Jefferson/DeLaurier frontcourt all that often this season.

Yeah agree. We may/likely will see Amile out top in a ball handling role though. Product of both not having a true PG, so wanting say Grayson & Luke to catch it on the wings and go to work, as well as floor spacing. For example, if the lineup on the floor is Grayson/Luke/Tatum/Amile/Bolden, K might choose at times to put Amile up top with Tatum playing the role of the Offensive 4/PF, with Luke on one wing and Grayson on the other. I firmly believe we will see that look at times. How well it works will determine how often. In the 4 times I have seen them, Amile has been up top in a primary ball handling role every single time for at least a few minutes...

Thoughts?

Bob Green
10-31-2016, 08:37 PM
We may/likely will see Amile out top in a ball handling role though.

Thoughts?

I don't know about out top but against a zone defense I like to see Amile handling the ball at the free throw line.

ChillinDuke
11-01-2016, 09:52 AM
I have not seen this team yet this year. But my question to this is - Would Amile on the perimeter more likely be Amile doing high post stuff? Between the elbows and filling the hole vs zone defense? Or is he going to be dribbling as much as you seem to be saying?

Others have characterized the situation well.

It hasn't looked like "high post stuff." It has looked like a different look to run the offense. Through the two non-important ESPN-aired broadcasts that have been available, Amile has dribbled up court on multiple occasions out of the backcourt. Sometimes it was in reaction to a weak full-court press in which they are pressing our primary ball handlers. Sometimes it was off a defensive rebound. And sometimes Amile was placed up top outside the three point line (not high post) and used as part of the perimeter offense initiation in the halfcourt set.

I'm not sure if this will continue. But I sort of expect it to for a few reasons: (1) it creates a much different dynamic on offense/different look that a defense would have to adjust to (without making a substitution), (2) it keeps the so-called "reigns" in the hands of the players that K trusts most to understand in-game situations and run plays (Matt and Grayson will initiate a ton too, but Amile being able to do it further spreads the point guard responsibilities), and (3) depending on match-ups, it can create scenarios where Amile can drive (which he appears quite capable of thus far - will see if he can be as effective when the competition gets harder) and if he's able to exploit a good match-up he has excellent court vision.

As an example to (1) above, imagine a lineup of Bolden/Jefferson/Tatum/Kennard/Grayson - where Amile is up top, Tatum and Allen on the wings, and Kennard running the baseline. Imagine a team like UNC that loves to play two dedicated bigs - Hicks and Meeks. How do they guard that lineup? If Amile is on the block with Bolden or in the high post, they can guard it for sure. If Amile is up top, what's the move? Is Hicks quick enough to guard out to the perimeter? How will Hicks deal with switches onto Tatum, Allen, and/or Kennard [not well, I'd expect]. Not to mention Grayson would have ~5 inches on Joel Berry. Maybe a two-big team like UNC could deal with it - but it's nonetheless a very intriguing look.

To be sure, this could all change as soon as the first real game. But in all honesty, I've liked the periodic look and I've been intrigued by Amile's ability to be effective in the role. And prior to these two "games," I absolutely never once considered that we would use him in that role. Very interesting.

- Chillin

Troublemaker
11-01-2016, 10:31 AM
Yeah agree. We may/likely will see Amile out top in a ball handling role though. Product of both not having a true PG, so wanting say Grayson & Luke to catch it on the wings and go to work, as well as floor spacing. For example, if the lineup on the floor is Grayson/Luke/Tatum/Amile/Bolden, K might choose at times to put Amile up top with Tatum playing the role of the Offensive 4/PF, with Luke on one wing and Grayson on the other. I firmly believe we will see that look at times. How well it works will determine how often. In the 4 times I have seen them, Amile has been up top in a primary ball handling role every single time for at least a few minutes...

Thoughts?

I think that's exactly right. When Duke runs its "Horns" set (or as Coach K refers to it -- the "Elbow Series"), we usually put two bigs at the elbows, with one of them (more often Amile) receiving a pass from the point guard to initiate the set.

However, since Tatum is extremely comfortable operating from the elbow, we will sometimes replace Amile with Tatum as one of the players standing at the elbow. And Amile will be the point guard up top making the entry into Jayson.

English
11-01-2016, 12:52 PM
As an example to (1) above, imagine a lineup of Bolden/Jefferson/Tatum/Kennard/Grayson - where Amile is up top, Tatum and Allen on the wings, and Kennard running the baseline. Imagine a team like UNC that loves to play two dedicated bigs - Hicks and Meeks. How do they guard that lineup? If Amile is on the block with Bolden or in the high post, they can guard it for sure. If Amile is up top, what's the move? Is Hicks quick enough to guard out to the perimeter? How will Hicks deal with switches onto Tatum, Allen, and/or Kennard [not well, I'd expect]. Not to mention Grayson would have ~5 inches on Joel Berry. Maybe a two-big team like UNC could deal with it - but it's nonetheless a very intriguing look.

- Chillin

An intriguing lineup, to be sure...I guess what I don't understand is what the harm is for a team with two bigs to sag way off Amile at the top of the key. He doesn't have range out there. The scouting report would surely say "Let Amile Jefferson shoot as many 3s or long 2s as he wants." Why wouldn't a defender just go under any screens set for Amile out there, instead of switching? He's not going to punish anyone going under the screen by draining an open 3 or long 2.

Then, the five defenders could pack in the lane while increasing the attention on the other 4 Duke offensive threats. That would clog the interior for drives by Grayson and mid-range for Tatum, as well as anything in the paint for Bolden. Sure, Grayson could probably just shoot over Berry (or another PG), but that would be true even if Amile wasn't out on the perimeter--Luke could do the same against most opposing PGs in our long lineup, but again, that's irrespective of Amile's role in the offense.

flyingdutchdevil
11-01-2016, 12:57 PM
An intriguing lineup, to be sure...I guess what I don't understand is what the harm is for a team with two bigs to sag way off Amile at the top of the key. He doesn't have range out there. The scouting report would surely say "Let Amile Jefferson shoot as many 3s or long 2s as he wants." Why wouldn't a defender just go under any screens set for Amile out there, instead of switching? He's not going to punish anyone going under the screen by draining an open 3 or long 2.

Then, the five defenders could pack in the lane while increasing the attention on the other 4 Duke offensive threats. That would clog the interior for drives by Grayson and mid-range for Tatum, as well as anything in the paint for Bolden. Sure, Grayson could probably just shoot over Berry (or another PG), but that would be true even if Amile wasn't out on the perimeter--Luke could do the same against most opposing PGs in our long lineup, but again, that's irrespective of Amile's role in the offense.

Exactly. Also, Amile away from the basket removes one of our best weapons: offensive rebounding. I like the idea of Amile as our 4, but moreso as a second big in the key rather than a point forward. Until Amile can prove that we can hit the middy (and no, that one mid-range during the Blue-White scrimmage doesn't count), I'm not putting much equity into Amile's new role.

ChillinDuke
11-01-2016, 02:32 PM
An intriguing lineup, to be sure...I guess what I don't understand is what the harm is for a team with two bigs to sag way off Amile at the top of the key. He doesn't have range out there. The scouting report would surely say "Let Amile Jefferson shoot as many 3s or long 2s as he wants." Why wouldn't a defender just go under any screens set for Amile out there, instead of switching? He's not going to punish anyone going under the screen by draining an open 3 or long 2.

Then, the five defenders could pack in the lane while increasing the attention on the other 4 Duke offensive threats. That would clog the interior for drives by Grayson and mid-range for Tatum, as well as anything in the paint for Bolden. Sure, Grayson could probably just shoot over Berry (or another PG), but that would be true even if Amile wasn't out on the perimeter--Luke could do the same against most opposing PGs in our long lineup, but again, that's irrespective of Amile's role in the offense.


Exactly. Also, Amile away from the basket removes one of our best weapons: offensive rebounding. I like the idea of Amile as our 4, but moreso as a second big in the key rather than a point forward. Until Amile can prove that we can hit the middy (and no, that one mid-range during the Blue-White scrimmage doesn't count), I'm not putting much equity into Amile's new role.

Valid points. And I'd agree that Amile will have to prove that he's capable of a reliable jumpshot. But I'd also mention that I don't think this is a new "role" as much as a new wrinkle / diversifying the PG responsibility. Semantics, potentially. But a distinction in my eyes.

I can envision plenty of ways to use him in this capacity at various points in a game. But again, I agree that it's too early to form any sort of expectation that this is a truly new role for him.

- Chillin

MChambers
11-01-2016, 03:28 PM
An intriguing lineup, to be sure...I guess what I don't understand is what the harm is for a team with two bigs to sag way off Amile at the top of the key. He doesn't have range out there. The scouting report would surely say "Let Amile Jefferson shoot as many 3s or long 2s as he wants." Why wouldn't a defender just go under any screens set for Amile out there, instead of switching? He's not going to punish anyone going under the screen by draining an open 3 or long 2.

I suppose, but what if Amile is setting a screen for Grayson or Luke? Is the other team going to concede a wide open three from the top of the circle?

devildeac
11-01-2016, 03:54 PM
I suppose, but what if Amile is setting a screen for Grayson or Luke? Is the other team going to concede a wide open three from the top of the circle?

Yes, please. ;)

English
11-01-2016, 04:51 PM
I suppose, but what if Amile is setting a screen for Grayson or Luke? Is the other team going to concede a wide open three from the top of the circle?

I'm not sure I understand the question--I imagine Amile will be setting a ton of screens for Grayson and Luke, both, and I also imagine the opposition will try to avoid going under them as much as possible. This seems tangential to the concept of Amile acting as a point-forward who initiates the offense out at the key. Does Amile need to have any ballhandling duties to set screens for Grayson or Luke, even out on the perimeter? Perhaps I'm missing the distinction.

MChambers
11-01-2016, 05:01 PM
I'm not sure I understand the question--I imagine Amile will be setting a ton of screens for Grayson and Luke, both, and I also imagine the opposition will try to avoid going under them as much as possible. This seems tangential to the concept of Amile acting as a point-forward who initiates the offense out at the key. Does Amile need to have any ballhandling duties to set screens for Grayson or Luke, even out on the perimeter? Perhaps I'm missing the distinction.

I just meant that if the other team drops the player covering Amile back into the paint, Amile can set a screen for one of our perimeter players. I agree with you that it doesn't mean that Amile has to be a point forward.

Li_Duke
11-01-2016, 05:19 PM
I'm not sure I understand the question--I imagine Amile will be setting a ton of screens for Grayson and Luke, both, and I also imagine the opposition will try to avoid going under them as much as possible. This seems tangential to the concept of Amile acting as a point-forward who initiates the offense out at the key. Does Amile need to have any ballhandling duties to set screens for Grayson or Luke, even out on the perimeter? Perhaps I'm missing the distinction.

I see "screening" as a case where the Duke guard has the ball and dribbles past a stationary Amile. If Amile can also effectively handle the ball on the perimeter, the attack can be more of a hand-off variety, which can be harder to guard than a screen as the Duke guard has greater range of motion without the ball. If both Amile's man and the guy guarding our guard both pop out to avoid the 3, Amile can choose not to hand it off and instead drive to the basket. Basically the range of options for attacking the defense increases.

Troublemaker
11-01-2016, 05:42 PM
I'm not sure I understand the question--I imagine Amile will be setting a ton of screens for Grayson and Luke, both, and I also imagine the opposition will try to avoid going under them as much as possible. This seems tangential to the concept of Amile acting as a point-forward who initiates the offense out at the key. Does Amile need to have any ballhandling duties to set screens for Grayson or Luke, even out on the perimeter? Perhaps I'm missing the distinction.

Right, you guys are describing different situations. It sounds like in your original post, you were describing a situation where Amile is the ball-handler and a big sets a ball screen for Amile. In that case, I would agree with you that the defense would eventually just sag off. I bet you the first couple of times we ran it, though, it would surprise the defense and lead to Duke scoring. But, eventually, once it is seen on film and properly scouted, the opposition would just tell their big men to sag off if Amile is the ball-handler in a pick-n-roll.

jv001
11-01-2016, 05:59 PM
Last year Amile used some good low posts moves to score. He was looking like he might have a tremendous year. Then the Duke injury bug hit. I wonder if he'll be used in that manner this season? As for our defense, Giles is supposed to be a good defender. Once he's able to go at or near 100% our defense will only get better. If everything comes together, Duke will be good on offense, defense and rebounding. Ball handling will be my only concern. GoDuke!

Kedsy
11-01-2016, 06:06 PM
Right, you guys are describing different situations. It sounds like in your original post, you were describing a situation where Amile is the ball-handler and a big sets a ball screen for Amile. In that case, I would agree with you that the defense would eventually just sag off. I bet you the first couple of times we ran it, though, it would surprise the defense and lead to Duke scoring. But, eventually, once it is seen on film and properly scouted, the opposition would just tell their big men to sag off if Amile is the ball-handler in a pick-n-roll.

While I generally agree with this, I don't think we'd be using a big to set a ball screen for Amile all that often. We could either use a wing to screen and then either roll or pop while the screened defender is leaning the wrong way, or we'd just let Amile drive past, e.g., Meeks or Hicks, and cause havoc to the defense that way. Because those big guy types aren't used to guarding a ballhandler on the perimeter. Also, if the big guarding Amile drops under the screen, don't underestimate how much easier it is for a good passer to make a good pass when nobody's guarding him.

Obviously we need to see more to determine whether Amile is really capable of all that, but I think the early returns are promising.

Newton_14
11-01-2016, 07:52 PM
I see "screening" as a case where the Duke guard has the ball and dribbles past a stationary Amile. If Amile can also effectively handle the ball on the perimeter, the attack can be more of a hand-off variety, which can be harder to guard than a screen as the Duke guard has greater range of motion without the ball. If both Amile's man and the guy guarding our guard both pop out to avoid the 3, Amile can choose not to hand it off and instead drive to the basket. Basically the range of options for attacking the defense increases.


Great points by you and Chillin on this one. Look, I'm not sure what K has in mind with Amile and this perimeter thing, but I just know I have seen it now in both practices, CTC, and the Exhibition. So K has something in mind there and I think at least part of the reasoning is with sharing the PG responsibilities. If nothing else it gives Grayson, Matt, and Luke a break with primary ball handling responsibilities, if only for a possession or two, and even better, if Amile grabs a defensive rebound and decides to push it himself, it lets those guys fill the lanes like they would normally do on a fast break.

If it doesn't work out then I'm sure K will dump it quickly, but for now I am interested to see where this goes and how K is planning to utilize Amile....

lotusland
11-03-2016, 07:19 AM
I finally had a chance to watch the replay last night and one thing I noticed that hasn't been mentioned is the greater emphasis on traveling by the officials. Bolden and Grayson both drew a couple. Of course things will probably revert to the norm by conference play but Grayson's effectiveness could be curtailed some if they don't give him the Euro-step on his drive. With that said I like the emphasis for the sake of the game. Especially in combination with the tighter hand check restrictions.

Kedsy
11-03-2016, 11:17 AM
Grayson's effectiveness could be curtailed some if they don't give him the Euro-step on his drive.

I don't really recall the plays, but did Grayson get called on the Euro-step, or on the little shuffle as he started his drives? I have a very vague memory that at least one of them was the latter. My recollection of Marques's travels (which may not be accurate because my memory is fuzzy on this) was one rotating pivot foot and one running rebound that went too far. If I'm remembering properly, both would have been called almost any year.

flyingdutchdevil
11-03-2016, 11:30 AM
I don't really recall the plays, but did Grayson get called on the Euro-step, or on the little shuffle as he started his drives? I have a very vague memory that at least one of them was the latter. My recollection of Marques's travels (which may not be accurate because my memory is fuzzy on this) was one rotating pivot foot and one running rebound that went too far. If I'm remembering properly, both would have been called almost any year.

IIRC, I think it was one of each. I wasn't surprised by the little shuffle, as that was kind of a travel. But if he was called for a Euro step, then that's not good. Grayson has one of the best Euro steps in college ball and stripping that away from him is really limiting his game.

lotusland
11-03-2016, 12:51 PM
IIRC, I think it was one of each. I wasn't surprised by the little shuffle, as that was kind of a travel. But if he was called for a Euro step, then that's not good. Grayson has one of the best Euro steps in college ball and stripping that away from him is really limiting his game.

Yep one of each. Second one was a Euro step in the lane on a drive.

pfrduke
11-03-2016, 12:57 PM
Yep one of each. Second one was a Euro step in the lane on a drive.

I had thought the Euro step one was less because of the Euro step itself but more because he tried to hang on the last step and couldn't get the ball off before his foot came down. But I'll admit to fuzzy memory.

lotusland
11-03-2016, 07:20 PM
They didn't show a replay and I don't think his feet were clearly visible on the broadcast angle so it may be that he took a 4th step. By my rapidly failing vision, the Euro step that Justise used and that Grayson currently employs is a travel by definition if you count steps after the dribble stops. I don't like it and wouldn't mind seeing it disappear before kids quit bothering to learn the right way but Grayson does use it as effectively as anyone in college ball.

mo.st.dukie
11-03-2016, 08:39 PM
They didn't show a replay and I don't think his feet were clearly visible on the broadcast angle so it may be that he took a 4th step. By my rapidly failing vision, the Euro step that Justise used and that Grayson currently employs is a travel by definition if you count steps after the dribble stops. I don't like it and wouldn't mind seeing it disappear before kids quit bothering to learn the right way but Grayson does use it as effectively as anyone in college ball.

Just because it looks funny or weird or different doesn't mean it's illegal. If it were a travel then the traditional running layup would be a travel as well because both moves use two steps off the dribble. I think a lot of people get confused when a guy uses a Euro step because it looks odd but it's not a travel according to the rules, assuming of course that the maneuver was executed correctly. It's not going anywhere because it's an effective move and a legal move.