The Plumlees represent 7% of white American-born NBA players.

[nmduke2001]

Interesting Q&A, featuring JJ, regarding the disappearance of white American NBA players. Only 43 in the league this year.

http://theundefeated.com/features/white-american-nba-players/

[JasonEvans]

I had not even begun to think about that... pretty amazing article. Also, stunning that they did not mention the Plumlees a single time. One family is responsible for 7% of the white Americans in the NBA. That's some remarkable DNA!!

http://i1.wp.com/espntheundefeated.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/tu_nba_white_desktop_revise.jpg?quality=40&strip=all&ssl=1

[Ultrarunner]

So, if my list is correct, the following are still in the league:

Miles Plumlee
Mason Plumlee
Marshall Plumlee
Kyle Singler
JJ Redick
Mike Dunleavy
Josh McRoberts

So, 7 of 43 of the white American players came out of Duke? Did I miss anyone?

[ipatent]

I'm sure the individual teams want to win. I'll leave it to the social scientists to figure the phenomenon out.

[Bluedog]

Interesting article, thanks for linking.


I'm sure the individual teams want to win. I'll leave it to the social scientists to figure the phenomenon out.

Parsons: "The NBA is a collection of some of the most athletic guys in the world. And white guys just aren't that athletic."

However, some people make similar "ability" arguments with regards to other professions and why perhaps Asians and overrepresented and other groups are underrepresented. I would agree it's more clear-cut when it's a physical evaluation and "not biased" against white guys, but I do think there probably IS some bias towards European white players over American white players for some reason. Ryan Kelly coming out of Lithuania probably would have been seen as a highly coveted 6'10" floor spacer with tons of potential. (Yes, I realize he did get signed anyways).

Same idea as to why there are no (or very few) super elite white marathon runners in the world. People were shocked to see Galen Rupp on the scene take the silver at the 5000 in London in 2012 and bronze at the marathon this year in Rio. There are clearly some biological differences between people from different countries of origin. I'm sure many articles and books have been written about it.

But it is pretty amazing that the Plumlees (and Duke) comprise such a large percentage of the American-born white NBA players.


So, if my list is correct, the following are still in the league:

Miles Plumlee
Mason Plumlee
Marshall Plumlee
Kyle Singler
JJ Redick
Mike Dunleavy
Josh McRoberts

So, 7 of 43 of the white American players came out of Duke? Did I miss anyone?

Wish Ryan Kelly would be on the list, but he just got waived 4 days ago... :(

[SCMatt33]

It's actually 7.5%. The 43 mentioned were on rosters as of Monday morning and did not account for the cuts of Matt Costello, Mitch McGary and Kaleb Tarczewski. It appears there was one other Monday cut I'm missing as if you add up the numbers on the chart it's now 39. I got 40 when I counted on Tuesday so I missed someone.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Everything about this thread makes me uncomfortable. The statistics are okay, but the analysis makes me queasy. Have fun!

[Troublemaker]

I'm sure the individual teams want to win. I'll leave it to the social scientists to figure the phenomenon out.


I would agree it's more clear-cut when it's a physical evaluation and "not biased" against white guys, but I do think there probably IS some bias towards European white players over American white players for some reason. Ryan Kelly coming out of Lithuania probably would have been seen as a highly coveted 6'10" floor spacer with tons of potential. (Yes, I realize he did get signed anyways).

I would examine labor supply here as much as labor demand.

This is a "kids these days" complaint and anecdotal, but I would say over the past 20 years or so, there are lots of activities and sports that young white boys have become less interested in, not just basketball.

One exception: video games. Or "eSports" as ESPN calls it, complete with a section covering the "sport" on espn.com: http://www.espn.com/esports/

[Ichabod Drain]

I would examine labor supply here as much as labor demand.

This is a "kids these days" complaint and anecdotal, but I would say over the past 20 years or so, there are lots of activities and sports that young white boys have become less interested in, not just basketball.

One exception: video games. Or "eSports" as ESPN calls it, complete with a section covering the "sport" on espn.com: http://www.espn.com/esports/

It was called eSports long before ESPN decided to try and make money off of it. Lot's of professional athletes and organizations are getting involved as well. Shaq is an owner of NRG, Rick Fox started Echo Fox, Pete Guber (part owner of the Warriors) bought Team Liquid recently and The 76ers bout Dignitas. It's going to be frowing exponentially fast over the coming years. Will be interesting to see how the industry develops.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

They may be an anomaly, but all three Plumlee kids are extremely athletic for 7 footers, no matter what color they are.

[BoiseDevil]

There's only one reason I care about this stat...

I love the international flavor of the NBA and hope it breeds goodwill across borders.

Looking at the political landscape around the world, sport might be our best hope as a unifying social construct.

All things considered the last 30 years of globalization and de-regulation has improved the worldwide standard of living (you may not feel that way because you are constantly bombarded with news you would not have had access to 30 years ago) and individual freedoms.

I'm not saying all things are good, but I will argue that globalization is a better long term solution than isolationism.

Yes, this is unrelated to basketball, but in my opinion the only value I see to this statistic.

[Steven43]

I'm sure the individual teams want to win. I'll leave it to the social scientists to figure the phenomenon out.

Are you really that incurious about this bizarre phenomenon? I'm not trying to tell you how to feel, I'm just surprised that a DBR poster would not have more interest and curiosity about an issue which many basketball fans find to be absolutely fascinating and perplexing.

[Steven43]

Everything about this thread makes me uncomfortable. The statistics are okay, but the analysis makes me queasy. Have fun!

Why is it uncomfortable to talk about race and ethnicity? What about this makes you feel uneasy? Just a quick glance at the statistics is really quite amazing. I mean it's just absolutely striking. Why not delve into it a little bit and see if perhaps there could be some enlightenment gained?

Each to his own, I suppose. Not judging you negatively. We each have our own areas of interest and curiosity and they definitely do not always overlap.

[NM Duke Fan]

I am "white" and personally have been quite interested in the genetic aspects of sports performance for decades now as I travel the world. It is clear to me that in Africa for instance, the West Africans tend to have a distinct genetic advantage in explosive fast twitch muscles. While the East African like the Kenyans and Ethiopians have a clear advantage in slow twitch endurance. And thus many of the world's best sprinters are of West African descent, which was the main component of forced immigration to the Carribean for example. And look at how the East Africans are now absolutely dominating the Olympic events like the marathon and others that require extreme endurance.

In addition, often the most athletic players in Europe (and who do well in the NBA) are from Eastern Europe: The Baltics, especially Lithuania. And also from Croatia, Serbia, and Bosnia. There are plenty of fast, good leapers and good players in those regions. (Olek Czyz also had plenty of leaping ability!)

There are other superb athletes from Europe. To me, one of the best tests of ovarall athleticism is the Decathlon, which requires an incredible combination of explosivity, endurance, coordination, etc. Some of the best in the world have been from the Slavic countries, like the legendary gold medalist Roman Seberle. Likewise with the women's version of the event.

My personal impression from playing a lot of basketball in my earlier years is that overall the fast twitch muscles and various limb proportions that are necessary to be an explosive dunker are more genetically common in the American Black population than the American white population. (I had exceptional hand and lateral foot speed, while not being an exceptional leaper). But certainly there are some white players who indeed can jump! Culturally, it also seems to me that more and more of the reasonably athletic white boys are now into things like BMX cycling, skateboarding, and various other extreme sports that have their own unique culture, sports that did not really exist in their present form when I was pounding the blacktops.

[nmduke2001]

Everything about this thread makes me uncomfortable. The statistics are okay, but the analysis makes me queasy. Have fun!

Sorry if this thread is making people uncomfortable. I thought it was a really interesting stat.


I am "white" and personally have been quite interested in the genetic aspects of sports performance for decades now as I travel the world. It is clear to me that in Africa for instance, the West Africans tend to have a distinct genetic advantage in explosive fast twitch muscles. While the East African like the Kenyans and Ethiopians have a clear advantage in slow twitch endurance. And thus many of the world's best sprinters are of West African descent, which was the main component of forced immigration to the Carribean for example. And look at how the East Africans are now absolutely dominating the Olympic events like the marathon and others that require extreme endurance.

In addition, often the most athletic players in Europe (and who do well in the NBA) are from Eastern Europe: The Baltics, especially Lithuania. And also from Croatia, Serbia, and Bosnia. There are plenty of fast, good leapers and good players in those regions. (Olek Czyz also had plenty of leaping ability!)

There are other superb athletes from Europe. To me, one of the best tests of ovarall athleticism is the Decathlon, which requires an incredible combination of explosivity, endurance, coordination, etc. Some of the best in the world have been from the Slavic countries, like the legendary gold medalist Roman Seberle. Likewise with the women's version of the event.

My personal impression from playing a lot of basketball in my earlier years is that overall the fast twitch muscles and various limb proportions that are necessary to be an explosive dunker are more genetically common in the American Black population than the American white population. (I had exceptional hand and lateral foot speed, while not being an exceptional leaper). But certainly there are some white players who indeed can jump! Culturally, it also seems to me that more and more of the reasonably athletic white boys are now into things like BMX cycling, skateboarding, and various other extreme sports that have their own unique culture, sports that did not really exist in their present form when I was pounding the blacktops.

JJ was on Russillo yesterday and had a similar theory. He thought that suburban kids have more options available to them in terms of their recreation hours. The replay is on the Russillo page on ESPN but it isn't easily linkable (is that a word?) for me to place here.

[Rich]

Ahhh, if Jimmy the Greek could see us now!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Why is it uncomfortable to talk about race and ethnicity? What about this makes you feel uneasy? Just a quick glance at the statistics is really quite amazing. I mean it's just absolutely striking. Why not delve into it a little bit and see if perhaps there could be some enlightenment gained?

Each to his own, I suppose. Not judging you negatively. We each have our own areas of interest and curiosity and they definitely do not always overlap.

I just get wary when the broad brushes come out.

[duke4ever19]

This country operates with the assumption/belief that "All men are created equal." For the purposes of having a functioning society and justice system, this is a fine and even laudable starting point.

Nature plays by her own rules, however. Black males have on average a much higher active testosterone level than males from asian or caucasian backgrounds (I think the number is around 20% higher). That is certainly only going to help someone pursuing an athletic career. If that means that black males are over-represented in the NBA, then so be it.

The word "inequality" doesn't always equal "bad."

[Billy Dat]

We need to flesh (ha ha ha) this out some more by adding what overall percentage of the NBA is white including the Europeans. It would be interesting to track the overall % of white over time.

But, it also begs the question, what's white and what is black? There are tons of players of mixed race. How are they counted? That conversation might really be interesting (kidding Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15, I understand how these convos can head into weird places).

[COYS]

The science on this issue points very strongly to the conclusion that skin color (which is used to determine and individual's "race" as it is defined by American culture) has minimal to negligible impact on athletic ability. There is extensive, peer-reviewed research to back this up. Cultural and environmental factors are a MUCH better way to explain the success or failure of certain athletes with certain phenotypes.

Here's one such article that provides a quick summary of more extensive research.

http://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1027&context=hilltopreview

I think it's also important to acknowledge that the idea of genetics explaining the ability of black athletes also has an ugly history. Originally, black people were considered inferior athletically to white people. This persisted for centuries. However, when black people began to excel in certain sports, the myth was created that black people possess a special genetic proclivity for athletic performance as a way of writing off the performance of black athletes as a simple matter of innate talent rather than hard work and skill. Vestiges of this myth live on, today. How many times have you heard about the raw ability of a black athlete or the smarts of a white athlete? I honestly think this is becoming at least a little less common, which is good, but yeah, it has an ugly history that, if we're gonna talk about this, we should probably acknowledge.

[duke74]

This country operates with the assumption/belief that "All men are created equal." For the purposes of having a functioning society and justice system, this is a fine and even laudable starting point.

We've veering closely to PPB material, but just one thought. I actually think that the assumption is that all men (and women) have equal opportunity. No matter what the metric, all are not created equal. Some are smarter, some are taller, some are faster, etc...that's just a fact. Doesn't mean they are better or should have better chances to succeed in life.

Galton and his eugenics are wafting around here, but probably should not be approached.

[subzero02]

We need to flesh (ha ha ha) this out some more by adding what overall percentage of the NBA is white including the Europeans. It would be interesting to track the overall % of white over time.

But, it also begs the question, what's white and what is black? There are tons of players of mixed race. How are they counted? That conversation might really be interesting (kidding Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15, I understand how these convos can head into weird places).

Exactly. The overwhelming majority of players who are classified as black in our society have Caucasian ancestors. Quite a few "black" players have 1 white parent or grandparent.

[sagegrouse]

Exactly. The overwhelming majority of players who are classified as black in our society have Caucasian ancestors. Quite a few "black" players have 1 white parent or grandparent.

I'm with Mtn.Devil: I don't want to be part of this conversation.

[Duke79UNLV77]

I'm with Mtn.Devil: I don't want to be part of this conversation.

Though this is a good opportunity to note that Tyler Hansbrough is out of the league. I saw a comment on IC that playing overseas is actually great for Tyler if he likes to travel. I think we all know that Tyler really, really likes to travel. Perhaps he can even take advantage of the foreign language classes he took in college.

[Troublemaker]

I'm with Mtn.Devil: I don't want to be part of this conversation.

Should be easy for you guys then.

1. Don't hit "Reply to Thread"
2. Don't type words into a text box.
3. Don't hit "Submit."

Should be easy. ;)

[Indoor66]

Though this is a good opportunity to note that Tyler Hansbrough is out of the league. I saw a comment on IC that playing overseas is actually great for Tyler if he likes to travel. I think we all know that Tyler really, really likes to travel. Perhaps he can even take advantage of the foreign language classes he took in college.

He already speaks Swahili doesn't he?

[NSDukeFan]

He already speaks Swahili doesn't he?

If by speaking, you mean someone else wrote a paper for him, then yes.

[SupaDave]

Gonna help just a little. In this, there's an underlying assumption that all black players in the NBA ARE athletic - and well we know that's simply not true.

The line starts at Kendall Marshall - goes on for a while - hits Carmelo - then hits Zach Randolph - takes a quick look at Chris Paul - hugs the Curry brothers - and then decides to leave the league like Sean May...

[jipops]

Meanwhile...8% of the population in MLB is African American.

[Reilly]

We need to flesh (ha ha ha) this out some more by adding what overall percentage of the NBA is white including the Europeans. It would be interesting to track the overall % of white over time.

But, it also begs the question, what's white and what is black? There are tons of players of mixed race. How are they counted? That conversation might really be interesting (kidding Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15, I understand how these convos can head into weird places).

This is a provocative post and I'm surprised it hasn't generated more replies given that I believe it misuses the phrase "begs the question."

Tom Hayden died the other day. I got to meet and converse with him once, so was reading some obituaries and saw where he had given a toast at his son's wedding about how it made him happy as it was a step toward the elimination of the white race in America or something like that.

If we had a chart over time, how to count Shane or Trajan or Tyus today.

I usually check "other" and write in "human" when asked for my race. The other day I had to fill out a computer form and "other" wasn't a choice but "undetermined" was so I went with that, which I sort of like.