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Troublemaker
10-15-2016, 10:32 AM
We'll see if there's any interest in this thread.

Once the basketball season starts, there will be those great "This Week in the ACC" threads posted by pfrduke. However, I figure there might be a bunch of us who want to discuss the ACC in the preseason since this should be a very exciting year for the conference. The hype will be out of control as the conference maybe finally asserts itself as the best, most dominant conference in the land. For example, Jeff Goodman of ESPN speculated about a week ago that the ACC could put 11 teams into the NCAA tournament (http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/116140/eleven-acc-teams-in-the-ncaa-tournament-it-could-happen).

So this thread will be a catch-all for preseason predictions and happenings. When Operation Basketball happens, we can discuss it in here. When an injury pops up -- like Va Tech's Kerry Blackshear possibly being out for the season -- that can go in here. If some national writer gushes about the ACC or alternatively says the conference is overrated, discuss here. Debates about who will finish first, who will finish second, how many NCAA teams -- that can all go in here.

Troublemaker
10-15-2016, 10:45 AM
For example, Jeff Goodman of ESPN speculated about a week ago that the ACC could put 11 teams into the NCAA tournament (http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/116140/eleven-acc-teams-in-the-ncaa-tournament-it-could-happen).

Here's how Goodman categorized the 15 ACC Teams:

Lock Tournament Teams (5)
Duke
UNC
UVA
Louisville
Syracuse

Likely Tournament Teams (5)
NC State
Va Tech
Notre Dame
Florida State
Miami

Maybes (2)
Clemson
Pittsburgh

Out (3)
Wake Forest
Georgia Tech
Boston College

-------------------

I highlighted my points of disagreement with Goodman. I actually think because ND and Miami lost so much talent, they go into the "Maybe" category. And really, Miami may belong in the "Out" category. And I believe Pitt belongs in the "Likely" category. Pitt made the tourney last season and they return almost everyone. So, I have it as 9 likely/lock NCAA teams and 2-3 maybes, which is still very impressive.

Olympic Fan
10-15-2016, 11:40 AM
If you notice, Goodman includes 12 teams as contenders for his 11 NCAA teams.

I think that's fair -- going into the season, there are 12 teams that have a legitimate chance to earn an NCAA bid ... but not all 12 will do it. Somebody has to lose and Boston College, Georgia Tech and Wake Forest (which is actually not bad, although not IMHO an NCAA team) can't be the only teams to lose.

This season -- more than ever -- the pre-conference season will be very, VERY important for the middle-level teams. A year ago, Clemson and Virginia Tech played well in the ACC (both finished ahead of Syracuse and Pitt), but blew it in November/December. In the ACC is going to get 9-10-11 teams in, then the middle teams will have to do well in the pre-conference season. That's the difference between the NIT and NCAA for 9-9 even 10-8 ACC teams -- and the league is so balanced that there will be a lot of those.

The Blackshear news is the big off-season news. If he can't play, that REALLY makes the Hokies small. They have a bunch of great inside guys, but little help for LeDay inside. The freshman Cy has size, but he's very raw.

Still to come -- the NCAA ruling on Louisville -- was their self-imposed postseason ban last year enough? I'm betting the team penalty is accepted, but that Rick Pitino has to sit out the first nine games; also the NCAA ruling on NC State's Omer Yurtseven -- I'm hearing a lot of optimism in Raleigh that he will be cleared to play. Also, the NCAA ruling on the Cheats. While I expect the school to receive some punishment, I don't expect anything that will directly impact the basketball team.

I have to disagree with your assessment of Pitt. They barely made the tourney last year and they did have significant losses -- their starting center (who was mediocre) and their point guard (who was not -- the ACC's all-time leader in assist-to-turnover ratio). A lot of great forwards, but their point guard will be either a three-star recruit or a juco transfer who sat out last season with an injury. Plis, a new coach -- you never know how that impacts a team. Not saying they won't make it, but I think they belong in the maybe category.

Notre Dame has size problems -- they are solid on the perimeter and Ferrell's move to the point was the key to their NCAA run last year. Their issue is size. Brey played small last year with just one big man, but Auguste was pretty good. They really have no replacement. They are counting on a 6-10 junior named Martin Geben, who hasn't played more than a minute or two over last two seasons.

I thought it interesting that I was checking their roster and found a 6-10, 255-pound senior named Patrick Mazza. Wow, where did he come from? Turns out that he is a walk-on from the football team. Actually, he was a football walk-on too, coming out of NDame's intramural program -- they are the last school in the country with tackle-football intramurals. But the really funny thing is his size -- the basketball team lists him at 6-10, 255 ... the football roster has him at 6-71/2!

Anyway, I like the idea of this thread ...

sagegrouse
10-15-2016, 12:38 PM
I thought it interesting that I was checking their roster and found a 6-10, 255-pound senior named Patrick Mazza. Wow, where did he come from? Turns out that he is a walk-on from the football team. Actually, he was a football walk-on too, coming out of NDame's intramural program -- they are the last school in the country with tackle-football intramurals. But the really funny thing is his size -- the basketball team lists him at 6-10, 255 ... the football roster has him at 6-71/2!
...
Maybe Notre Dame football measures heights AFTER practice.

Agree with the idea of the MBB thread.

Troublemaker
10-15-2016, 02:09 PM
Anyway, I like the idea of this thread ...


Agree with the idea of the MBB thread.

Thanks! It'll be good to get some bball talk on here. For those that view the boards on mobile and use the "activity stream" view, you know that it seems like 4 out of 5 posts are going into that Presidential thread on Off-Topic. We've been a politics board essentially for a few weeks now, haha.



This season -- more than ever -- the pre-conference season will be very, VERY important for the middle-level teams. A year ago, Clemson and Virginia Tech played well in the ACC (both finished ahead of Syracuse and Pitt), but blew it in November/December. In the ACC is going to get 9-10-11 teams in, then the middle teams will have to do well in the pre-conference season. That's the difference between the NIT and NCAA for 9-9 even 10-8 ACC teams -- and the league is so balanced that there will be a lot of those.

Totally agreed. As long as ACC teams take care of business pre-conference, even a 9-9 or maybe even 8-10 conference record can get teams in.



I have to disagree with your assessment of Pitt. They barely made the tourney last year and they did have significant losses -- their starting center (who was mediocre) and their point guard (who was not -- the ACC's all-time leader in assist-to-turnover ratio). A lot of great forwards, but their point guard will be either a three-star recruit or a juco transfer who sat out last season with an injury.

Yeah, I basically only counted PG James Robinson as a loss; the center and any others are marginal. You're right -- Robinson's a huge loss. Pitt is going to experiment with playing Jamel Artis at point this season (http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/Pitt/2016/09/27/Pitt-basketball-senior-Jamel-Artis-I-m-starting-at-point-guard/stories/201609270178). How you feel about Pitt depends on how you feel that experiment will pan out.

New coach Kevin Stallings seems optimistic. From that link:


“I see a lot of upside for our team with Jamel as the point guard,” Stallings said. “Initially, there may be a little greater risk and eventually I think there will be greater reward if it’s something that pans out the way my mind’s eye sees it. Jamel can handle the ball well, he’s our best passer and he’s the guy on our team most capable of making other guys better the most, if that makes sense.”

Wahoo2000
10-15-2016, 02:36 PM
Debates about who will finish first, who will finish second, how many NCAA teams -- that can all go in here.

I don't think you're going to find much debate except from the most homerrific UNC/UVA/Lou/Syr fans on who will finish first. Even if Giles never played, I think you guys would still be a near consensus league #1. The only way you guys don't finish first is if you have major injury issues (I mean MAJOR - like no Allen for the bulk of the year, AND Giles never comes back... though a Jefferson-Bolden-Tatum-Jones-Kennard-Jackson rotation still probably has you in the mix) OR if one of the next 3-4 teams is much better than expected (like UVA in 14-15 when we were preseason #10 but started the season 28-1).


Second? Now that could spark some debate. I really think the 2-5 spots will end up being decided by 1 game, MAYBE 2. It's probably going to be an absolute WAR for the double-byes in the conf tourney.

jv001
10-15-2016, 03:04 PM
We'll see if there's any interest in this thread.

Once the basketball season starts, there will be those great "This Week in the ACC" threads posted by pfrduke. However, I figure there might be a bunch of us who want to discuss the ACC in the preseason since this should be a very exciting year for the conference. The hype will be out of control as the conference maybe finally asserts itself as the best, most dominant conference in the land. For example, Jeff Goodman of ESPN speculated about a week ago that the ACC could put 11 teams into the NCAA tournament (http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/116140/eleven-acc-teams-in-the-ncaa-tournament-it-could-happen).

So this thread will be a catch-all for preseason predictions and happenings. When Operation Basketball happens, we can discuss it in here. When an injury pops up -- like Va Tech's Kerry Blackshear possibly being out for the season -- that can go in here. If some national writer gushes about the ACC or alternatively says the conference is overrated, discuss here. Debates about who will finish first, who will finish second, how many NCAA teams -- that can all go in here.

Sporks for this thread. I always enjoy comments from knowledgeable basketball fans and we have many on this board. I have not had much time to research college hoops this year, as my son's cancer has returned and that has been priority number one. Reading this thread will take my mind off the bad stuff right now. Once again thanks for starting this thread and GoDuke!

ipatent
10-15-2016, 04:24 PM
It would be nice to win the ACC-Big 10 challenge this year.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
10-15-2016, 04:38 PM
Sporks for this thread. I always enjoy comments from knowledgeable basketball fans and we have many on this board. I have not had much time to research college hoops this year, as my son's cancer has returned and that has been priority number one. Reading this thread will take my mind off the bad stuff right now. Once again thanks for starting this thread and GoDuke!

As my neighbor says, "what's great about sports is that it gives you an excuse to care a LOT about something that doesn't matter."

OldPhiKap
10-15-2016, 05:23 PM
Are we all generally conceding that UNC will not have any post-season restriction?

Olympic Fan
10-15-2016, 05:32 PM
Are we all generally conceding that UNC will not have any post-season restriction?

Not conceding, but the amended NOA does not mention basketball. I think the school itself will get hit with a large monetary penalty and some kind of probation (and least two Level One violations were not disputed by the school), but it's hard to see how they get a postseason ban (hard to see considering the NOA ... not so hard if you know the facts in the case).

Louisville is a little more at risk. but I think the NCAA accepts their self-imposed one-year ban.

sagegrouse
10-15-2016, 07:28 PM
Not conceding, but the amended NOA does not mention basketball. I think the school itself will get hit with a large monetary penalty and some kind of probation (and least two Level One violations were not disputed by the school), but it's hard to see how they get a postseason ban (hard to see considering the NOA ... not so hard if you know the facts in the case).

Louisville is a little more at risk. but I think the NCAA accepts their self-imposed one-year ban.

I dunno. There's the "get clobbered" option, which would ground UNC in all sports for a couple of years. Works for me.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-15-2016, 11:04 PM
I don't think you're going to find much debate except from the most homerrific UNC/UVA/Lou/Syr fans on who will finish first. Even if Giles never played, I think you guys would still be a near consensus league #1. The only way you guys don't finish first is if you have major injury issues (I mean MAJOR - like no Allen for the bulk of the year, AND Giles never comes back... though a Jefferson-Bolden-Tatum-Jones-Kennard-Jackson rotation still probably has you in the mix) OR if one of the next 3-4 teams is much better than expected (like UVA in 14-15 when we were preseason #10 but started the season 28-1).


Second? Now that could spark some debate. I really think the 2-5 spots will end up being decided by 1 game, MAYBE 2. It's probably going to be an absolute WAR for the double-byes in the conf tourney.

UVA fans may be conceding the season, and yes, I know this is red meat thrown into a cage around here, and while I may even be "homerrific", I'm no where close to conceding anything to Duke going into the season. 🙂

UNC has a balanced and experienced team with a lot of talent. Roy builds puzzle teams and he has all the pieces again this year to expect a shot at titles. Now it's up to the players to come together and perform.
My sense is they have the confident and strong, competitive leader every team needs in Joel Berry.
I'd say they are being underestimated in most preseason talk I've seen.

As a UNC fan, my attitude is we are current ACC League and tourament champions, national finalist. Until you take it back on the court, it's all talk!

And one other thing. I don't trust freshmen, mine or yours, until they show me something. Duke will depend heavily on freshmen, just sayin'.

In a nutshell...my quick UNC take on why they can win the ACC and beyond:

Hicks is about to see the word "beast" alongside his name bantered around the ACC. That's a designation I don't throw around lightly discussing players. I think he's going to give the league fits this year and challenge for 1st team All ACC, and he still has room to grow as a player. He came in a thorobred colt and is reaching stallion stage, so to speak.
6'9, 240+. We haven't seen many league players with his quickness, strength, shooting touch and athleticism lately at that size.

Berry may be the best PG n the league, easily top 3. Can also challenge for All ACC.

Jackson is a high level utility wing forward that can do it all. And he could also play his way into All ACC consideration. He has the talent, and his game has grown each season.

That's a strong core.

Meeks will hold his own against most centers in the league, unless he loses his spot to freshman Tony Bradley, who, I'm reading, is ACC ready and has been very impressive as a defender/shot blocker and with his all around offensive game. We'll see.

Pinson is a long/strong utility type player at the 2g/3 that can play D and has a nice all around offensive game.

The bench will be Britt, Bradley, Luke Maye, Kenny Williams, and maybe some early season time for Seventh Woods and Brandon Robinson. Roy likes to give his players experience early in the season before shortening the bench.
As they are substituted in, UNC will still play at a high level, keeping the pressure on teams the entire game.

Britt and Maye don't bother anybody until you take them lightly and don't guard them. Britt is a starting quality ACC guard capable of making plays, and Maye is that classic, scrappy, undersized PF, mid major talented guy that comes in and makes the alpha dawg player who thinks he's a pushover and gets lazy pay attention to him or get embarrassed.

Kenny Williams also has some game. It will be interesting to see how far he's come this season as a sophomore.

Duke fans have every reason to be confident as well.

Jefferson is a leader and high quality anchor in the post. He rebounds, defends and always plays hard. His experience can't be underestimated. And his offense has gotten to the point where he has to be respected. He'll start all season.

Allen can be a dominating scorer. All ACC caliber player.

Kennard and Jones are a very good utility guard/sf combo.

Jeter is showing some signs of growth as a productive player, but I think he's still a season away from quality time.

The freshmen will have to come in and live up to some serious hype, which they may very well do. I still haven't seen them play, like most fans, to gage their talent and chemistry together for myself.

UNC comes in as the #1 ACC team preseason until proven otherwise to me.

DukieTiger
10-16-2016, 12:14 AM
UVA fans may be conceding the season, and yes, I know this is red meat thrown into a cage around here, and while I may even be "homerrific", I'm no where close to conceding anything to Duke going into the season. 🙂

UNC has a balanced and experienced team with a lot of talent. Roy builds puzzle teams and he has all the pieces again this year to expect a shot at titles. Now it's up to the players to come together and perform.
My sense is they have the confident and strong, competitive leader every team needs in Joel Berry.
I'd say they are being underestimated in most preseason talk I've seen.

As a UNC fan, my attitude is we are current ACC League and tourament champions, national finalist. Until you take it back on the court, it's all talk!

And one other thing. I don't trust freshmen, mine or yours, until they show me something. Duke will depend heavily on freshmen, just sayin'.

In a nutshell...my quick UNC take on why they can win the ACC and beyond:

Hicks is about to see the word "beast" alongside his name bantered around the ACC. That's a designation I don't throw around lightly discussing players. I think he's going to give the league fits this year and challenge for 1st team All ACC, and he still has room to grow as a player. He came in a thorobred colt and is reaching stallion stage, so to speak.
6'9, 240+. We haven't seen many league players with his quickness, strength, shooting touch and athleticism lately at that size.

Berry may be the best PG n the league, easily top 3. Can also challenge for All ACC.

Jackson is a high level utility wing forward that can do it all. And he could also play his way into All ACC consideration. He has the talent, and his game has grown each season.

That's a strong core.

Meeks will hold his own against most centers in the league, unless he loses his spot to freshman Tony Bradley, who, I'm reading, is ACC ready and has been very impressive as a defender/shot blocker and with his all around offensive game. We'll see.

Pinson is a long/strong utility type player at the 2g/3 that can play D and has a nice all around offensive game.

The bench will be Britt, Bradley, Luke Maye, Kenny Williams, and maybe some early season time for Seventh Woods and Brandon Robinson. Roy likes to give his players experience early in the season before shortening the bench.
As they are substituted in, UNC will still play at a high level, keeping the pressure on teams the entire game.

Britt and Maye don't bother anybody until you take them lightly and don't guard them. Britt is a starting quality ACC guard capable of making plays, and Maye is that classic, scrappy, undersized PF, mid major talented guy that comes in and makes the alpha dawg player who thinks he's a pushover and gets lazy pay attention to him or get embarrassed.

Kenny Williams also has some game. It will be interesting to see how far he's come this season as a sophomore.

Duke fans have every reason to be confident as well.

Jefferson is a leader and high quality anchor in the post. He rebounds, defends and always plays hard. His experience can't be underestimated. And his offense has gotten to the point where he has to be respected. He'll start all season.

Allen can be a dominating scorer. All ACC caliber player.

Kennard and Jones are a very good utility guard/sf combo.

Jeter is showing some signs of growth as a productive player, but I think he's still a season away from quality time.

The freshmen will have to come in and live up to some serious hype, which they may very well do. I still haven't seen them play, like most fans, to gage their talent and chemistry together for myself.

UNC comes in as the #1 ACC team preseason until proven otherwise to me.

Oh come on. Grayson Allen is the preseason national player of the year. I won't touch the rest of the understatement aimed toward Duke's roster but I think you're trying too hard to downplay Duke's talent.

I do agree that UNC will be formidable though. Just gotta hope you guys can recruit a shooter who can see the floor one of these days.

DukieTiger
10-16-2016, 12:27 AM
And one other thing. I don't trust freshmen, mine or yours, until they show me something. Duke will depend heavily on freshmen, just sayin'.
-vs-
Meeks will hold his own against most centers in the league, unless he loses his spot to freshman Tony Bradley, who, I'm reading, is ACC ready and has been very impressive as a defender/shot blocker and with his all around offensive game. We'll see.



Hicks is about to see the word "beast" alongside his name bantered around the ACC. That's a designation I don't throw around lightly discussing players. I think he's going to give the league fits this year and challenge for 1st team All ACC, and he still has room to grow as a player. He came in a thorobred colt and is reaching stallion stage, so to speak.
6'9, 240+. We haven't seen many league players with his quickness, strength, shooting touch and athleticism lately at that size.
-vs-
Jefferson is a leader and high quality anchor in the post. He rebounds, defends and always plays hard. His experience can't be underestimated. And his offense has gotten to the point where he has to be respected. He'll start all season.



Berry may be the best PG n the league, easily top 3. Can also challenge for All ACC.
-vs-
Allen can be a dominating scorer. All ACC caliber player



Pinson is a long/strong utility type player at the 2g/3 that can play D and has a nice all around offensive game.
Britt is a starting quality ACC guard capable of making plays
-vs-
Kennard and Jones are a very good utility guard/sf combo.



The bench will be Britt, Bradley, Luke Maye, Kenny Williams, and maybe some early season time for Seventh Woods and Brandon Robinson. Roy likes to give his players experience early in the season before shortening the bench.
As they are substituted in, UNC will still play at a high level, keeping the pressure on teams the entire game.
Kenny Williams also has some game. It will be interesting to see how far he's come this season as a sophomore.
-vs-
Jeter is showing some signs of growth as a productive player, but I think he's still a season away from quality time.
The freshmen will have to come in and live up to some serious hype, which they may very well do. I still haven't seen them play, like most fans, to gage their talent and chemistry together for myself.

UNC comes in as the #1 ACC team preseason until proven otherwise to me.
I couldn't leave it alone.

Doria
10-16-2016, 01:54 AM
I actually think Berry is a very good PG. As far as the rest, I agree there is some good talent there, but I'll wait to see who can consistently stay on the court without foul trouble to assess the team.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-16-2016, 10:16 AM
Oh come on. Grayson Allen is the preseason national player of the year. I won't touch the rest of the understatement aimed toward Duke's roster but I think you're trying too hard to downplay Duke's talent.

I do agree that UNC will be formidable though. Just gotta hope you guys can recruit a shooter who can see the floor one of these days.

It was getting late and I did short my comments on Duke players, not an intentional slight, I sure don't underestimate them.

I joined the thread only to make some counterpoints to the idea that Duke is easily the anointed #1 team preseason.

Some additional comments...

On Grayson...he's getting the preseason media hype on NPOY, but I have some doubts on that. Don't get me wrong, he's very good and probably 1st team All ACC because he can fill it up in a hurry and everybody loves a shooter/scorer. But he has room to be a more complete player. If he dedicates himself this season to being a better distributor and defender, works at screening harder for his teammates and continues to improve on his ball handling, he certainly can be NPOY.
Criticism of a potential NPOY's game is a little like pointing out a flaw on a super model, I know. And I don't use words like "dominating scorer" lightly either, Grayson can play and I like his game.

Kennard is a gapper. He fills in the gaps nicely when he's on the floor, if that makes sense. He' not the most athletic player, but I like how he plays smart. If he can find his spot, a gap, and his teammates can find him, he'll make you pay. He has solid fundamentals, and only lacks the ability to create off the dribble to make a defense have to game plan for him. Reminds me a little of Scheyer, another Duke player I liked that people sometimes underestimated.

Jones is the typical glue guy you need for a high level team. When I say he's a "utility" player, that's a big compliment because every team needs those guys that can play anywhere on the floor. He can shoot it with time, he's a smart defender, he's strong and a solid rebounder and passer.

I'm looking forward to seeing the freshmen play after reading about them for about three years now.

On UNC shooting, careful what you wish for. They are expected to be a much better shooting team this year with their experience and inside strength to open things up. Even Britt won the late night with Roy 3pt contest, hitting 12 of 15 in the first three rounds and then 5-5 in the finals, something I know you guys want to hear 🙈

Troublemaker
10-16-2016, 10:40 AM
I couldn't leave it alone.

No need to leave it alone. Wheat is talking basketball, which I appreciate and which is one of the explicit goals of this thread. He might be wrong with some of his opinions or predictions, but that's okay. I'm sure I'll end up being wrong about lots of my preseason thoughts.

Also, note that Wheat isn't actually picking someone other than Duke to finish first here. He's referring more to a mindset -- "UNC won the ACC last season and so is #1 until proven otherwise" -- rather than actually picking UNC to win the conference.

slower
10-16-2016, 10:46 AM
Also, note that Wheat isn't actually picking someone other than Duke to finish first here. He's referring more to a mindset -- "UNC won the ACC last season and so is #1 until proven otherwise" -- rather than actually picking UNC to win the conference.

By now, we're all pretty much aware of his "mindset." :p

OldPhiKap
10-16-2016, 11:19 AM
Duke and UNC are clearly the front runners. Have not analyzed the unbalanced schedule to see who has tougher away schedule. But UNC is clearly capable of edging us out.

Troublemaker
10-16-2016, 11:22 AM
I don't think you're going to find much debate except from the most homerrific UNC/UVA/Lou/Syr fans on who will finish first. Even if Giles never played, I think you guys would still be a near consensus league #1.

Completely agree. While I believe great depth is overrated in terms of raising a team's "ceiling" because you can only play 5 players at a time, where depth really shines is over the course of the regular season because great depth raises a team's "floor." On a game-by-game basis, most ACC teams are going to be susceptible to foul trouble, an ankle sprain, or just an off-night for key players. You experience one or more of those things in a game, and you're probably taking a loss in the loaded ACC. But Duke? Those things shouldn't bother us. Even if NPOY candidate Grayson Allen gets into foul trouble or is having an off-night, we can feel pretty confident about Luke Kennard subbing in for him and playing well. Amile picks up two quick fouls? Oh, we just have a lottery pick in Harry Giles or Marques Bolden to fill in. You can think of all sorts of scenarios where Duke will have the answer to the problem coming off the bench. The advantage of great depth really manifests itself well over a large body of games.


The only way you guys don't finish first is if you have major injury issues (I mean MAJOR - like no Allen for the bulk of the year, AND Giles never comes back... though a Jefferson-Bolden-Tatum-Jones-Kennard-Jackson rotation still probably has you in the mix) OR if one of the next 3-4 teams is much better than expected (like UVA in 14-15 when we were preseason #10 but started the season 28-1).

Agreed again. Given the above -- that Duke will consistently display a very high floor -- you can pretty much pencil us in for 15-3 or thereabouts in conference. To prevent Duke from finishing first, some team is going to have to be much better than expected. Duke is not going to fall back to the pack; some team will have to rise up and grab 16 to 18 wins to edge us out.

ipatent
10-16-2016, 11:37 AM
And one other thing. I don't trust freshmen, mine or yours, until they show me something. Duke will depend heavily on freshmen, just sayin'..

Point well taken. In the afterglow of a title, it is easy to forget that even the '15 team, which had terrific chemistry and a precocious point guard who made clutch shots on demand, looked like a stretch to compete for the title midway through the season because of a porous defense.

It is hard to get a freshman-laden group to play effective team defense. It is hard to win championships without a true point guard.

I still think Duke has a great chance this year, but there are no givens.

DukieTiger
10-16-2016, 12:07 PM
It was getting late and I did short my comments on Duke players, not an intentional slight, I sure don't underestimate them.

I joined the thread only to make some counterpoints to the idea that Duke is easily the anointed #1 team preseason.

Some additional comments...

On Grayson...he's getting the preseason media hype on NPOY, but I have some doubts on that. Don't get me wrong, he's very good and probably 1st team All ACC because he can fill it up in a hurry and everybody loves a shooter/scorer. But he has room to be a more complete player. If he dedicates himself this season to being a better distributor and defender, works at screening harder for his teammates and continues to improve on his ball handling, he certainly can be NPOY.
Criticism of a potential NPOY's game is a little like pointing out a flaw on a super model, I know. And I don't use words like "dominating scorer" lightly either, Grayson can play and I like his game.

Kennard is a gapper. He fills in the gaps nicely when he's on the floor, if that makes sense. He' not the most athletic player, but I like how he plays smart. If he can find his spot, a gap, and his teammates can find him, he'll make you pay. He has solid fundamentals, and only lacks the ability to create off the dribble to make a defense have to game plan for him. Reminds me a little of Scheyer, another Duke player I liked that people sometimes underestimated.

Jones is the typical glue guy you need for a high level team. When I say he's a "utility" player, that's a big compliment because every team needs those guys that can play anywhere on the floor. He can shoot it with time, he's a smart defender, he's strong and a solid rebounder and passer.

I'm looking forward to seeing the freshmen play after reading about them for about three years now.

On UNC shooting, careful what you wish for. They are expected to be a much better shooting team this year with their experience and inside strength to open things up. Even Britt won the late night with Roy 3pt contest, hitting 12 of 15 in the first three rounds and then 5-5 in the finals, something I know you guys want to hear 🙈

Thanks for sharing your comments. I agree with most of what you're saying, just feel that you're under rating some of the Duke players a bit.

For one, Kennard was the 3rd most efficient offensive player in ACC play last year, and that was without his 3pt shot falling at an exceptional rate. He may not be great at attacking the basket (though I actually don't think that's his weakness) but he is exceptional from 2pt range as a guard- making almost 55% of his 2's as a freshman. He actually had one of the best freshman seasons ever at Duke last year, and the only reason teams may not gameplay around him is the amount of talent on this Duke team. I sincerely believe he'd be the best pure offensive player on every other team in the ACC.

Regarding Carolina's shooting, if they can indeed keep a reliable shooter on the floor, they do become much more dangerous- I agree with that.

tfk53
10-16-2016, 01:25 PM
Here's how Goodman categorized the 15 ACC Teams:

Lock Tournament Teams (5)
Duke
UNC
UVA
Louisville
Syracuse

Likely Tournament Teams (5)
NC State
Va Tech
Notre Dame
Florida State
Miami

Maybes (2)
Clemson
Pittsburgh

Out (3)
Wake Forest
Georgia Tech
Boston College

-------------------

I highlighted my points of disagreement with Goodman. I actually think because ND and Miami lost so much talent, they go into the "Maybe" category. And really, Miami may belong in the "Out" category. And I believe Pitt belongs in the "Likely" category. Pitt made the tourney last season and they return almost everyone. So, I have it as 9 likely/lock NCAA teams and 2-3 maybes, which is still very impressive.


Looking at Duke and heels schedules re away ACC games this year.

Both have UVA, Wake, Miami.
Obviously the home and home with each other - a wash

Duke - VaT, FSU, Louisville, ND, Syracuse
UNC - GaT, Clemson, BC, NCSU, Pitt.

Looks to me that Duke's is tougher, at least pre-season on paper. Based on Jeff Goodman's thoughts, UNC has 2 of the 3 bottom feeders on the road. Although nothing is ever a true breather on the road in ACC, much rather play those two on the road this year than VaT in Blacksburg or up in Syracuse.


Also, a note on Isaiah Hicks - have talked with his high school coach (Hicks is from my town) who has been impressed with his weight and strengths gains this past year. Not mentioned by Wheat, though, is Hicks' difficulty staying on court with fouls. Last season, he averaged 7 fouls per 40 minutes. If he can stay out of foul trouble, he will be a load to handle.

Kedsy
10-16-2016, 02:13 PM
But UNC is clearly capable of edging us out.

"Clearly capable"? I suppose anything's possible, but I don't think there's anywhere close to a clear chance of it happening. To the contrary it would be a major upset. That is, unless you consider #19 recruit Tony Bradley to be "very impressive" and "ACC ready" but not consider #2 Harry Giles, #3 Jayson Tatum, #11 Marquis Bolden, and/or #14 Frank Jackson to be anything because they're freshmen and don't count "until they show [us] something."

The world has changed. Top-ranked freshmen can't be discounted like perhaps they could in the Dean Smith days.

Sometimes when I think of comparing teams, I think of a pickup game and who would be picked first:

Berry vs. Allen

Hicks vs. Giles

J Jackson vs. Tatum

Meeks vs. Jefferson

Pinson vs. Jones

Bradley vs. Bolden

Britt vs. Kennard

Williams vs. F Jackson

Maye vs. Jeter

I may be a homer, but I like Duke's guy in every single matchup above. And I don't think it's particularly close. I could see Wheat saying he likes Hicks over Giles or Jackson over Tatum, because of their longer experience, but I don't think most people would agree (assuming Giles is healthy and especially if you take Hicks's propensity to foul into account). I could see Pinson v. Jones being called a wash (though personally I think Jones wins). Best case for Wheat would be Duke 6, UNC 2, with one tie. And even that's discounting two top five draft picks against two guys who in the same draft will go late first round or second round. I think most neutral observers would pick at least 7, probably 8, and maybe 9 Duke guys out of nine.

So, could UNC "edge out" Duke for the top spot in the ACC? Like I said, anything's possible, and the game is played on the court and not on paper, but I wouldn't say they have a "clear" chance. I'd say if it happens it would be one of the bigger upsets in these parts in a very long time.

JasonEvans
10-16-2016, 02:15 PM
As long as ACC teams take care of business pre-conference, even a 9-9 or maybe even 8-10 conference record can get teams in.

Here's why I don't think the ACC will get 11 teams in the dance... and why I think even 10 will be tough to pull off.

How many ACC teams are going to be able to go 9-9 or better in the conference? I'm not asking anyone to name them, I'm merely pointing out that the reality of every game resulting in 1 win and 1 loss likely means it is going to be really tough to get 10 teams to .500 in the ACC.


2016 - 10 teams got to 9-9 or better. But that was helped by the historic awfulness of BC (0 wins). That doesn't happen often.
2015 - 8 teams .500 or better
2014 - 9 teams .500 or better
2013 - 6 teams .500 or better (only 12 teams in the conference, so this is like 7-8 teams in our current 15 team makeup)
2012 - 7 teams .500 or better (like 8-9 in a 15 team conference)
2011 - 6 teams .500 or better (like 7-8 in a 15 team conference)
2010 - 6 teams .500 or better (like 7-8 in a 15 team conference)

So, only once in the past 7 years have we gotten 10 teams to .500. We've never gotten 11 to that win total. It looks like 8 the normal number (which makes sense in a 15-team conference). So, I'm going to go ahead and say that unless you think Ga Tech, BC, and Wake aren't going to win a single game against the rest of the league, getting 11 teams to .500 or better just isn't going to happen. It probably hurts the middle teams even more that the top is so stacked -- getting any wins at all against Duke, UNC, Louisville, and Virginia is going to be really difficult. If all 4 of them win 13 or 14 games, it is really going to make it hard on the rest of the league.

So, the question becomes, can a 8-10 ACC team make the dance? I think it will be really hard. You guys are right that the league will need to post a great record against non-conference teams, especially power-5 matchups. Among the games to watch: Clemson in their Puerto Rico tournament, especially if they play Xavier; Pitt vs Michigan or Marquette in the 2K Classic; Notre Dame against Texas or NWestern in a Brooklyn tourney; FSU vs Illinois or WVa in the NIT; Miami vs. Stanford; the ACC-BigTen; Syracuse vs. UConn; Notre Dame vs. Villanova; FSU vs Florida; Notre Dame vs. Purdue; Clemson vs. South Carolina and Alabama...

...There are a few more, but those seem to be the big ones. I did not bother to include big matchups for Duke or UNC or some of the other top teams, because those teams are seen as NCAA Tourney locks, though it will be helpful for them to take care of business too as it just makes the ACC look stronger. It becomes easier for the NCAA to forgive losses to Duke and UNC and Virginia if those teams are stomping top teams from other conferences when they play them (like Duke vs Kansas or UNC vs Kentucky or Louis vs Kentucky).

-Jason "I'd love to see the ACC get 11, but I think 10 will be our max" Evans

JasonEvans
10-16-2016, 02:27 PM
Regarding the whole Duke vs UNC thing (how predictable was it that this thread would be sidetracked by that?!?!), I think you must look at schedules. UNC has a truly brutal, murderous stretch of games. Check out the end of Carolina's season.

at Duke
at NCST
vs. Virginia
vs. Louisville
at Pitt
at Virginia
vs. Duke

That is the toughest 7 game stretch of any team in the country, bar none! The Heels could play well in every one of those games and go 2-5. So, if Carolina seems to have a lead in the standings as the calendar turns from Jan to Feb, don't forget that the Heels must run a gauntlet at the end and I'll be stunned if they don't come out of it with at least 3 losses... probably more.

-Jason "the top tier team with the easiest ACC schedule is Louisville -- they only play Duke and UNC once each" Evans

OldPhiKap
10-16-2016, 02:30 PM
"Clearly capable"? I suppose anything's possible, but I don't think there's anywhere close to a clear chance of it happening. To the contrary it would be a major upset. That is, unless you consider #19 recruit Tony Bradley to be "very impressive" and "ACC ready" but not consider #2 Harry Giles, #3 Jayson Tatum, #11 Marquis Bolden, and/or #14 Frank Jackson to be anything because they're freshmen and don't count "until they show [us] something."

The world has changed. Top-ranked freshmen can't be discounted like perhaps they could in the Dean Smith days.

Sometimes when I think of comparing teams, I think of a pickup game and who would be picked first:

Berry vs. Allen

Hicks vs. Giles

J Jackson vs. Tatum

Meeks vs. Jefferson

Pinson vs. Jones

Bradley vs. Bolden

Britt vs. Kennard

Williams vs. F Jackson

Maye vs. Jeter

I may be a homer, but I like Duke's guy in every single matchup above. And I don't think it's particularly close. I could see Wheat saying he likes Hicks over Giles or Jackson over Tatum, because of their longer experience, but I don't think most people would agree (assuming Giles is healthy and especially if you take Hicks's propensity to foul into account). I could see Pinson v. Jones being called a wash (though personally I think Jones wins). Best case for Wheat would be Duke 6, UNC 2, with one tie. And even that's discounting two top five draft picks against two guys who in the same draft will go late first round or second round. I think most neutral observers would pick at least 7, probably 8, and maybe 9 Duke guys out of nine.

So, could UNC "edge out" Duke for the top spot in the ACC? Like I said, anything's possible, and the game is played on the court and not on paper, but I wouldn't say they have a "clear" chance. I'd say if it happens it would be one of the bigger upsets in these parts in a very long time.

I'm not going to hurt myself arguing up Carolina. I'll say though that these one-on-one lineup comparisons do not mean a lot. UNC brings back a lot of experience from a really good team last year; has some good young talent; and looks to have the easier unbalanced schedule. We may be better at the end, but drop a game or so more than they do during the season due to youth. As I said, they certainly could edge us in the conference standings.

Our biggest question mark (to me at least) is at the point. Youth at the point means a learning curve for the team more than at any other position.

Wander
10-16-2016, 03:12 PM
The only way you guys don't finish first is if you have major injury issues (I mean MAJOR - like no Allen for the bulk of the year, AND Giles never comes back... though a Jefferson-Bolden-Tatum-Jones-Kennard-Jackson rotation still probably has you in the mix) OR if one of the next 3-4 teams is much better than expected (like UVA in 14-15 when we were preseason #10 but started the season 28-1).





So, could UNC "edge out" Duke for the top spot in the ACC? Like I said, anything's possible, and the game is played on the court and not on paper, but I wouldn't say they have a "clear" chance. I'd say if it happens it would be one of the bigger upsets in these parts in a very long time.


I think you guys are underestimating the variability in regular season conference records. Duke hasn't finished alone in first place in a full decade, and that includes two national championship years! I expect us to be the best ACC team even with the Giles injury factor, but wouldn't be especially shocked if UNC or Louisville is challenging us in the regular season standings.

BD80
10-16-2016, 03:29 PM
Alright - Hitler, ol' roy can't recruit 5-star players, seniors will get more minutes, unc cheats.

This thread is now the same as every other thread on this board.

Except for those that have fabulously witty puns.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-16-2016, 03:30 PM
"Clearly capable"? I suppose anything's possible, but I don't think there's anywhere close to a clear chance of it happening. To the contrary it would be a major upset. That is, unless you consider #19 recruit Tony Bradley to be "very impressive" and "ACC ready" but not consider #2 Harry Giles, #3 Jayson Tatum, #11 Marquis Bolden, and/or #14 Frank Jackson to be anything because they're freshmen and don't count "until they show [us] something."

The world has changed. Top-ranked freshmen can't be discounted like perhaps they could in the Dean Smith days.

Sometimes when I think of comparing teams, I think of a pickup game and who would be picked first:

Berry vs. Allen

Hicks vs. Giles

J Jackson vs. Tatum

Meeks vs. Jefferson

Pinson vs. Jones

Bradley vs. Bolden

Britt vs. Kennard

Williams vs. F Jackson

Maye vs. Jeter

I may be a homer, but I like Duke's guy in every single matchup above. And I don't think it's particularly close. I could see Wheat saying he likes Hicks over Giles or Jackson over Tatum, because of their longer experience, but I don't think most people would agree (assuming Giles is healthy and especially if you take Hicks's propensity to foul into account). I could see Pinson v. Jones being called a wash (though personally I think Jones wins). Best case for Wheat would be Duke 6, UNC 2, with one tie. And even that's discounting two top five draft picks against two guys who in the same draft will go late first round or second round. I think most neutral observers would pick at least 7, probably 8, and maybe 9 Duke guys out of nine.

So, could UNC "edge out" Duke for the top spot in the ACC? Like I said, anything's possible, and the game is played on the court and not on paper, but I wouldn't say they have a "clear" chance. I'd say if it happens it would be one of the bigger upsets in these parts in a very long time.

Please note I didn't say Tony Bradley was "ACC ready" or "very impressive". I said I read that and "we'll see".

I have a serious question for you.

Have you seen any of Dukes freshmen play or are you basing your opinions on the Internet * rating?
I know I follow CBB as close as anyone and I don't get that opportunity. Much less see them play against bigger, stronger, more experienced college players.

Assuming not, how can you seriously take a freshman over any of UNC's starting upper class?

Justin Jackson had 5*'s coming in too, and he's very talented, but anybody who looked at him objectively as a freshman could tell he had physical muturity issues and his * rating was based on potential,(which he is fulfilling after 2 full seasons).

Don't trust a website * system when evaluating freshmen, that's my tip for the day.

But I'll play your game, with the match ups I expect.

C-Meeks-Jefferson..slight edge to Jefferson
PF- Hicks-Giles...Hicks
sF- Jackson-Tatum...Jackson
2g-Pinson-Allen...Allen
PG-Berry-Jackson...Berry

UNC wins 3 of 5 in those match ups.

Bench...Britt has no PG matchup on Duke's bench. When he goes up against Jackson, and Berry slides to 2g, I'll take Britt over Jackson.
Kennard-Williams...edge to Kennard but Williams is a surprisingly good defender.
Bradley-Bolden?
Luke Maye will hold his own when he's in at PF for whoever he gets matched up with for his couple of minutes.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-16-2016, 03:35 PM
Alright - Hitler, ol' roy can't recruit 5-star players, seniors will get more minutes, unc cheats.

This thread is now the same as every other thread on this board.

Except for those that have fabulously witty puns.

You could contribute...something...about the ACC this year?

I wish we could get some other ACC team fans to post here about their team deep into the roster, I know there are some fans out there that could do it.

arnie
10-16-2016, 03:56 PM
Please note I didn't say Tony Bradley was "ACC ready" or "very impressive". I said I read that and "we'll see".

I have a serious question for you.

Have you seen any of Dukes freshmen play or are you basing your opinions on the Internet * rating?
I know I follow CBB as close as anyone and I don't get that opportunity. Much less see them play against bigger, stronger, more experienced college players.

Assuming not, how can you seriously take a freshman over any of UNC's starting upper class?

Justin Jackson had 5*'s coming in too, and he's very talented, but anybody who looked at him objectively as a freshman could tell he had physical muturity issues and his * rating was based on potential,(which he is fulfilling after 2 full seasons).

Don't trust a website * system when evaluating freshmen, that's my tip for the day.

But I'll play your game, with the match ups I expect.

C-Meeks-Jefferson..slight edge to Jefferson
PF- Hicks-Giles...Hicks
sF- Jackson-Tatum...Jackson
2g-Pinson-Allen...Allen
PG-Berry-Jackson...Berry

UNC wins 3 of 5 in those match ups.

Bench...Britt has no PG matchup on Duke's bench. When he goes up against Jackson, and Berry slides to 2g, I'll take Britt over Jackson.
Kennard-Williams...edge to Kennard but Williams is a surprisingly good defender.
Bradley-Bolden?
Luke Maye will hold his own when he's in at PF for whoever he gets matched up with for his couple of minutes.

I think Wheat's breakdown is reasonable. If K coached this collection of players they'd play hard every game, within a system designed for their talents, understand their roles, improve over the season and even go to class. But alas, they will not be coached by K and are doomed to finish as an also ran.

BD80
10-16-2016, 04:25 PM
You could contribute...something...about the ACC this year?

I wish we could get some other ACC team fans to post here about their team deep into the roster, I know there are some fans out there that could do it.

Like this?


.., I basically only counted PG James Robinson as a loss; the center and any others are marginal. You're right -- Robinson's a huge loss. Pitt is going to experiment with playing Jamel Artis at point this season (http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/Pitt/2016/09/27/Pitt-basketball-senior-Jamel-Artis-I-m-starting-at-point-guard/stories/201609270178). How you feel about Pitt depends on how you feel that experiment will pan out.

New coach Kevin Stallings seems optimistic. From that link:

This the kind of information that edifies and enlightens.

Rehashing for the 800th time a comparison of the Duke and unc rosters is not enlightening.

Teams have been practicing for a while now, shouldn't we be getting more news and information?

DukieTiger
10-16-2016, 04:34 PM
Please note I didn't say Tony Bradley was "ACC ready" or "very impressive". I said I read that and "we'll see".

I have a serious question for you.

Have you seen any of Dukes freshmen play or are you basing your opinions on the Internet * rating?
I know I follow CBB as close as anyone and I don't get that opportunity. Much less see them play against bigger, stronger, more experienced college players.

Assuming not, how can you seriously take a freshman over any of UNC's starting upper class?

Justin Jackson had 5*'s coming in too, and he's very talented, but anybody who looked at him objectively as a freshman could tell he had physical muturity issues and his * rating was based on potential,(which he is fulfilling after 2 full seasons).

Don't trust a website * system when evaluating freshmen, that's my tip for the day.

But I'll play your game, with the match ups I expect.

C-Meeks-Jefferson..slight edge to Jefferson
PF- Hicks-Giles...Hicks
sF- Jackson-Tatum...Jackson
2g-Pinson-Allen...Allen
PG-Berry-Jackson...Berry

UNC wins 3 of 5 in those match ups.

Bench...Britt has no PG matchup on Duke's bench. When he goes up against Jackson, and Berry slides to 2g, I'll take Britt over Jackson.
Kennard-Williams...edge to Kennard but Williams is a surprisingly good defender.
Bradley-Bolden?
Luke Maye will hold his own when he's in at PF for whoever he gets matched up with for his couple of minutes.

I can see why you're skeptical of 5* freshmen given Carolina's recent track record. But I think your assessment here is, frankly, delusional.

duke043
10-16-2016, 07:03 PM
Let me make the case for Syracuse. (I am a Syracuse grad, now Duke faculty and Cameron season ticket holder for 20 years. I love both programs.)

I think Syracuse will be the 2nd best team in the ACC this year.

You’ve probably read recently that Jim Boeheim says this is his best team since 2011-12. Why is that significant?

Because since 2011-12, Syracuse has been to 2 Final Fours (more than Duke’s 1), won 12 NCAA Tournament games (more than Duke’s 11) and won 75% of their NCAA Tournament games (more than Duke’s 73%).

So, when Boeheim says this team better than others in that period, that is significant.

The Cuse will big, deep and experienced. They are built for the 2-3 zone this year. One key addition is an athletic 7’2 shotblocker named Chuckwu. Historically, Boeheim’s zone has been devastating when they have a shotblocker. It really allows them to extend the zone to challenge the 3.

Tyler Lydon will be a 1st round draft pick this spring, and Tyus Battle may be as well. They've added a couple 5th year guards, one of whom was honorable mention All Big Ten.

You'll all remember Tyler Roberson (20 rebs at Cameron in February). He's back.

They appear to have it all. Boeheim thinks so.

OldPhiKap
10-16-2016, 07:07 PM
Let me make the case for Syracuse. (I am a Syracuse grad, now Duke faculty and Cameron season ticket holder for 20 years. I love both programs.)

I think Syracuse will be the 2nd best team in the ACC this year.

You’ve probably read recently that Jim Boeheim says this is his best team since 2011-12. Why is that significant?

Because since 2011-12, Syracuse has been to 2 Final Fours (more than Duke’s 1), won 12 NCAA Tournament games (more than Duke’s 11) and won 75% of their NCAA Tournament games (more than Duke’s 73%).

So, when Boeheim says this team better than others in that period, that is significant.

Thanks, and would appreciate any more insight you have into Syracuse this year. Given their Big East dwelling for so many years, I know Syracuse but I do not know Syracuse (if that makes sense).

duke043
10-16-2016, 07:12 PM
I edited my post, OldPhiKap, after you asked for a little more about Syracuse.

They're excited up there. They'll probably get 35,000+ for Duke in February, even though its a Wednesday game.

OldPhiKap
10-16-2016, 07:21 PM
I edited my post, OldPhiKap, after you asked for a little more about Syracuse.

They're excited up there. They'll probably get 35,000+ for Duke in February, even though its a Wednesday game.

Thanks! I'd love to see K and B fight it out, with Roy and Ricky fighting for third. I do think we will see all four up there this year, along with Bennett who may be the best younger coach in college hoops. Reminds me of the mid-80's when the ACC had Dean, K, Lefty, Valvano, Cremins, and Terry Holland fighting it out. Makes for a great season!

jipops
10-16-2016, 08:18 PM
UVA fans may be conceding the season, and yes, I know this is red meat thrown into a cage around here, and while I may even be "homerrific", I'm no where close to conceding anything to Duke going into the season. ��

UNC has a balanced and experienced team with a lot of talent. Roy builds puzzle teams and he has all the pieces again this year to expect a shot at titles. Now it's up to the players to come together and perform.
My sense is they have the confident and strong, competitive leader every team needs in Joel Berry.
I'd say they are being underestimated in most preseason talk I've seen.

As a UNC fan, my attitude is we are current ACC League and tourament champions, national finalist. Until you take it back on the court, it's all talk!

And one other thing. I don't trust freshmen, mine or yours, until they show me something. Duke will depend heavily on freshmen, just sayin'.

In a nutshell...my quick UNC take on why they can win the ACC and beyond:

Hicks is about to see the word "beast" alongside his name bantered around the ACC. That's a designation I don't throw around lightly discussing players. I think he's going to give the league fits this year and challenge for 1st team All ACC, and he still has room to grow as a player. He came in a thorobred colt and is reaching stallion stage, so to speak.
6'9, 240+. We haven't seen many league players with his quickness, strength, shooting touch and athleticism lately at that size.

Berry may be the best PG n the league, easily top 3. Can also challenge for All ACC.

Jackson is a high level utility wing forward that can do it all. And he could also play his way into All ACC consideration. He has the talent, and his game has grown each season.

That's a strong core.

Meeks will hold his own against most centers in the league, unless he loses his spot to freshman Tony Bradley, who, I'm reading, is ACC ready and has been very impressive as a defender/shot blocker and with his all around offensive game. We'll see.

Pinson is a long/strong utility type player at the 2g/3 that can play D and has a nice all around offensive game.

The bench will be Britt, Bradley, Luke Maye, Kenny Williams, and maybe some early season time for Seventh Woods and Brandon Robinson. Roy likes to give his players experience early in the season before shortening the bench.
As they are substituted in, UNC will still play at a high level, keeping the pressure on teams the entire game.

Britt and Maye don't bother anybody until you take them lightly and don't guard them. Britt is a starting quality ACC guard capable of making plays, and Maye is that classic, scrappy, undersized PF, mid major talented guy that comes in and makes the alpha dawg player who thinks he's a pushover and gets lazy pay attention to him or get embarrassed.

Kenny Williams also has some game. It will be interesting to see how far he's come this season as a sophomore.

Duke fans have every reason to be confident as well.

Jefferson is a leader and high quality anchor in the post. He rebounds, defends and always plays hard. His experience can't be underestimated. And his offense has gotten to the point where he has to be respected. He'll start all season.

Allen can be a dominating scorer. All ACC caliber player.

Kennard and Jones are a very good utility guard/sf combo.

Jeter is showing some signs of growth as a productive player, but I think he's still a season away from quality time.

The freshmen will have to come in and live up to some serious hype, which they may very well do. I still haven't seen them play, like most fans, to gage their talent and chemistry together for myself.

UNC comes in as the #1 ACC team preseason until proven otherwise to me.

Which league, ACC or NCAA? If you mean the latter I have to say I disagree. Top 3 ACC?...sure I'll go with that. Granted I've seen a far, far fewer set of games with Berry playing than you (I won't watch the cheatin', exploitive bums on TV, unless it's against Duke...not even the natty game). Berry has some skills of course but based on the 2 games I saw he relies heavily on his off-hand to create space to get around defenders. He gets away with it more often than he should, but not always. Now that he's not playing along side somebody like Paige, it will be interesting to see how that changes his game. Since he is experienced I expect he'll be a more than capable defender. But no way I see Berry as a top 5 pg in the country.

Now, the cheats finishing 1st in the ACC...that doesn't sound at all unrealistic to me.

Olympic Fan
10-16-2016, 09:23 PM
Let me make the case for Syracuse. (I am a Syracuse grad, now Duke faculty and Cameron season ticket holder for 20 years. I love both programs.)

I think Syracuse will be the 2nd best team in the ACC this year.

You’ve probably read recently that Jim Boeheim says this is his best team since 2011-12. Why is that significant?

Because since 2011-12, Syracuse has been to 2 Final Fours (more than Duke’s 1), won 12 NCAA Tournament games (more than Duke’s 11) and won 75% of their NCAA Tournament games (more than Duke’s 73%).

So, when Boeheim says this team better than others in that period, that is significant.

The Cuse will big, deep and experienced. They are built for the 2-3 zone this year. One key addition is an athletic 7’2 shotblocker named Chuckwu. Historically, Boeheim’s zone has been devastating when they have a shotblocker. It really allows them to extend the zone to challenge the 3.

Tyler Lydon will be a 1st round draft pick this spring, and Tyus Battle may be as well. They've added a couple 5th year guards, one of whom was honorable mention All Big Ten.

You'll all remember Tyler Roberson (20 rebs at Cameron in February). He's back.

They appear to have it all. Boeheim thinks so.

I'm sorry, I don't get the love for Syracuse. Yes, they made a nice NCAA run last year, but don't forget -- they were 9-9 in the ACC, tied for ninth. They were very fortunate even get a bid last year.

And now Boeheim and his fans think they will be better?

Well, the Orange lost two fifth-year senior guards. They lost their three leading scorers and their three most prolific 3-point shooters.

What do they return?

Well, I very much like Tyler Lydon -- he's the only returning player with any solid numbers -- he scored 10.1 ppg, 6.3 rpg and hit 49 3-pointers as a freshman. He has the chance to be a very good ACC player.

Next is Tyler Roberson, a 6-8 senior who was so erratic as a junior that Boeheim kept threatening to bench him. He has DaJuan Coleman, a fifth-year senior who has been mediocre at best since suffering an injury two and a half years ago and Franklin Howard, a sophomore guard who averaged 1.6 ppg as a freshman.

That's not a great core, but let's look at the additions. Boeheim has added two four-star prospects in wing guard Tyus Battle and forward Taurean Thompson -- but while both are fine prospects and will, I'm sure, be quality players, how often do you see a four-star recruit come in and excel as a freshman in the ACC. It happens, but more often, such players take a while to make a big impact.

Then there are the three transfers. Paschal Chukwu is 7-2 and will, I'm sure be a good defensive player in the middle of the zone, but he was a nonentity in his season at Providence, unable to score or rebound. I'm sure he will be better, but how much better than Coleman in the middle?

Then there is John Gillon, a 6-0 transfer from Colorado State. He was a mediocre player on a mediocre team in a mediocre league ... and he's the guy Boeheim is talking about as his point guard.

Finally, there is Andrew White, who was a good -- not great -- player for Nebraska last year in the Big Ten. He made honorable mention all-conference as the best player on a team that didn't make the NCAA Tournament.

I actually think Lydon and White are pretty talented guys ... Roberson is a pretty average ACC player ... Battle and Thompson have potential. I'm not sure anybody else on the roster is worth getting excited about.

Don't get me wrong. I think Syracuse will be pretty good, but in the ACC this year, their talent level doesn't come close to half a dozen other teams. I certainly think NC State is better if Yurtseven is eligible. I thought Virginia Tech was better before Blackshear's injury (they were certainly better down the stretch last season, when Syracuse lost four of its final five ACC games).

Still, I love debating this stuff. That's why I was so excited to see this thread appear. Please don't let it be derailed by delusional fans of the Cheaters next door.

duke043
10-17-2016, 07:24 AM
You make some excellent points, Olympics Fan, such as the fact that Syracuse was lucky to make the tournament last year. Boeheim pulled that Final Four out of his butt.

I disagree, however, on your assessment of several of the players (for instance, Tyler Roberson who you'd think Duke fans would respect), but we'll see. That's why I can't wait for the season to begin.

But here is my point: Boeheim thinks this will be his best team in years, better than teams that have been 1-seeds and teams that made the Final Four.

Say what you want about Boeheim, but the guy knows talent - better than you and I do. And he has never been one to unrealistically hype his team, or his players. In fact, as you know, he's the ultimate pessimist. When he makes a comment like he did about his expectations for this year's team, basketball people take notice. Or should.

DukieTiger
10-17-2016, 07:58 AM
Speaking of Syracuse, one of the most intriguing things to me this year will be the possibility that a couple of the ACC's "football schools" can make the jump and possibly surpass Syracuse and Notre Dame- both of whom are getting mixed reviews in the preseason prognostication department. Both lost significant pieces and may be getting the benefit of the doubt for various reasons.

Which teams do I think have a chance to upset the order of things? Well, VT is the obvious pick wth a very good coach, a solid returning bunch, and the dramatic improvement they made last year. For them, it's likely a matter of whether they can do it when they're not the "surprise team". And I haven't seen their ACC schedule, so of course that factors as well.

The other team also returns quite a lot and adds some good pieces via transfer. They bring back probably the second best returnee in the conference after Grayson (sorry Wheat.) The problem for this team is that they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt right now. They love to lose to complete cupcakes early in the season, rattle off enough quality ACC wins to get in the bubble conversation, then completely blow it. But for reference, this team actually had a better league record than Syracuse last year. Unfortunately for Brad Brownell, the term "Clemsoning" might better apply to Hoops than Football these days.

VT and Clemson- two 10-8 ACC teams last year- both missed the tournament. Both should be better. ND (11-7) and Cuse (9-9) had more non-conference and tournament success, but lost major pieces and arguably will take a step back. If Tech and Clemson can be respectable in the non conference, I can see them surpassing two of the better programs in the conference, at least for next year.

Indoor66
10-17-2016, 08:19 AM
Speaking of Syracuse, one of the most intriguing things to me this year will be the possibility that a couple of the ACC's "football schools" can make the jump and possibly surpass Syracuse and Notre Dame- both of whom are getting mixed reviews in the preseason prognostication department. Both lost significant pieces and may be getting the benefit of the doubt for various reasons.

Which teams do I think have a chance to upset the order of things? Well, VT is the obvious pick wth a very good coach, a solid returning bunch, and the dramatic improvement they made last year. For them, it's likely a matter of whether they can do it when they're not the "surprise team". And I haven't seen their ACC schedule, so of course that factors as well.

The other team also returns quite a lot and adds some good pieces via transfer. They bring back probably the second best returnee in the conference after Grayson (sorry Wheat.) The problem for this team is that they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt right now. They love to lose to complete cupcakes early in the season, rattle off enough quality ACC wins to get in the bubble conversation, then completely blow it. But for reference, this team actually had a better league record than Syracuse last year. Unfortunately for Brad Brownell, the term "Clemsoning" might better apply to Hoops than Football these days.

VT and Clemson- two 10-8 ACC teams last year- both missed the tournament. Both should be better. ND (11-7) and Cuse (9-9) had more non-conference and tournament success, but lost major pieces and arguably will take a step back. If Tech and Clemson can be respectable in the non conference, I can see them surpassing two of the better programs in the conference, at least for next year.

Notre Dame is a football school? :confused::cool:

DukieTiger
10-17-2016, 08:24 AM
Notre Dame is a football school? :confused::cool:

Ha- that thought didn't even occur to me. :)

OldPhiKap
10-17-2016, 08:38 AM
Notre Dame is a football school? :confused::cool:

Notre Dame is in the ACC?

flyingdutchdevil
10-17-2016, 08:46 AM
On Grayson...he's getting the preseason media hype on NPOY, but I have some doubts on that. Don't get me wrong, he's very good and probably 1st team All ACC because he can fill it up in a hurry and everybody loves a shooter/scorer. But he has room to be a more complete player. If he dedicates himself this season to being a better distributor and defender, works at screening harder for his teammates and continues to improve on his ball handling, he certainly can be NPOY.
Criticism of a potential NPOY's game is a little like pointing out a flaw on a super model, I know. And I don't use words like "dominating scorer" lightly either, Grayson can play and I like his game.

He's very good? I'd argue that Joel Berry is very good. Amile Jefferson is very good. Grayson? He's arguably the top returning player in all of college basketball (and most certainly the ACC)! There are plenty of articles out there now about how Grayson represents what many love about college ball: upperclassmen with proven star potential (think Redick, Hield, and...sigh...Hansbrough).

Also, probabaly 1st team All ACC? He was 1st team All-ACC in the 2015-16 season. I'd say it's a near certainty minus injury or a complete breakdown of this Duke team that Grayson isn't 1st team All-ACC. I assume you, and many of your UNC brethren, considered Paige a lock for 1st team All-ACC during Paige's junior year after he secured 1st team honors during his sophomore year. I think that would be a smart assumption. However, injuries got the best of Paige. Without them, he's probably 1st team again. Same story with Grayson.

I agree Grayson isn't a complete player, and his defense is pretty porous. But he's the most coveted player in college basketball (don't believe me? Check this out: http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/candid-coaches-duke-has-2-of-the-top-3-players-coaches-would-want-on-their-team/) and he's a proven commodity, which seems to be an important criteria for you.

Lastly, I agree that UNC will be good. Their talent level is good, but there experience is second-to-none. And I think that's what makes them dangerous. I really like Joel Berry and think that Jackson can have a breakout year, but I''m not sold on Hicks as All-ACC nor am I will be put much equity into Nate-Britt-Preseason-ACC-Player-of-the-Year, Meeks, or Pinson.

whereinthehellami
10-17-2016, 09:32 AM
UNC - I have mixed feelings on them and tend to think they are overrated. I like Berry and Hicks. Both have potential to be 1st team All-ACC. After that I just see role players, including Jackson who's shooting got worse last year across the board, he regressed. I think there are some depth issues, that is going to effect the way UNC likes to play and will factor in some losses. My bold prediction is that UNC does not finish in the top 3 in the ACC.

VT – Prior to Blackshear’s injury, VT was going to be my bold prediction to finish in the top 3 in the ACC. But that is a big loss. I still think this scrappy team of guards/forwards (Allen 6-1 SR, Robinson 6-1 SO, Bibbs 6-5 JR, Hill 6-5 JR, Clarke 6-6 SO, Outlaw 6-6 JR, and LeDay 6-7 SR) will see an improvement in their record from last year (20-15) and be an NCAA team.

UVA – I like UVA a lot on paper. Sure they lost a lot from last year but I think Bennett still has the right pieces for his system. I think their record will be worse than last year but that they will be dangerous and in contention for spots 2-5 in the ACC. Perrantes and maybe Nichols will be in the mix for 1st team All-ACC. I think it might take them a bit to get an identity and find their offensive groove but once they do, they will start to roll.

Ima Facultiwyfe
10-17-2016, 10:04 AM
" I still think Duke has a great chance this year, but there are no givens."
Those of us old enough to remember the first Final Four against Kentucky sure hope there ARE no "givens".
Love, Ima

sagegrouse
10-17-2016, 10:21 AM
" I still think Duke has a great chance this year, but there are no givens."
Those of us old enough to remember the first Final Four against Kentucky sure hope there ARE no "givens".
Love, Ima

The first Final Four against Kentucky was the night in 1966 that Bob Verga got sick. The Jack Givens performance was in the first and only national championship game against Kentucky.

Troublemaker
10-17-2016, 10:31 AM
Have you seen any of Dukes freshmen play or are you basing your opinions on the Internet * rating?
I know I follow CBB as close as anyone and I don't get that opportunity. Much less see them play against bigger, stronger, more experienced college players.

One thing to keep in mind is that whether we're dealing with freshmen or returnees, we're still making projections for their performance. There are no guarantees no matter what. For example, you've talked up Isaiah Hicks as possibly being a stud performer this season. Well, he averaged 9 points and 5 rebounds his junior year. You're projecting that he can cut down his fouls and be very efficient in a much larger role. I think you're probably going to be right about him, but it's still a risky projection. At Duke, based on Coach K's track record of getting great performance from OADs, I think many of us actually feel projecting Jayson Tatum to be a stud player is actually less risky a projection.

Other ACC contenders besides UNC who need key players to make a jump:

Louisville -- Donovan Mitchell. Mitchell showed a lot of promise as a freshman, but now they need him to be their best player and one of the best in the ACC.

Virginia -- Austin Nichols. He was good at Memphis -- a 13 and 6 guy -- but they probably need him to produce 18 points and 8 rebounds a game to truly threaten.

Syracuse -- Tyler Lydon. Ditto here. 10 and 6 last year, but now he needs to be one of the ACC's best.

grad_devil
10-17-2016, 10:45 AM
<snip>
I agree Grayson isn't a complete player, and his defense is pretty porous. But he's the most coveted player in college basketball (don't believe me? Check this out: http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/candid-coaches-duke-has-2-of-the-top-3-players-coaches-would-want-on-their-team/) and he's a proven commodity, which seems to be an important criteria for you.
</snip>

From that URL, there are three (3) Duke players in the top 16, UNC-CH? Zero. The exact prompt is

"If you could pick any Division I player and put him on your team this season, which player would you pick?"
School breakdown:

3 - Duke
2 - Kansas
2 - Villanova
1 - California
1 - Clemson
1 - Iowa State
1 - Kentucky
1 - Maryland
1 - NCSU
1 - Oregon
1 - Washington
1 - Wisconsin


So, I guess I'm saying that other coaches don't value UNC-CH's experienced players over Duke's talent - event the unproven talent.

Just my $0.01,

superdave
10-17-2016, 11:07 AM
From that URL, there are three (3) Duke players in the top 16, UNC-CH? Zero. The exact prompt is

School breakdown:

3 - Duke
2 - Kansas
2 - Villanova
1 - California
1 - Clemson
1 - Iowa State
1 - Kentucky
1 - Maryland
1 - NCSU
1 - Oregon
1 - Washington
1 - Wisconsin


So, I guess I'm saying that other coaches don't value UNC-CH's experienced players over Duke's talent - event the unproven talent.

Just my $0.01,



I am just praying that Harry Giles is full speed by the New Year. If we miss out on a great season from him the same way we missed out on Kyrie, I will be bummed. Hope that kid gets healthy.

Troublemaker
10-18-2016, 11:17 AM
Looking at Duke and heels schedules re away ACC games this year.

Both have UVA, Wake, Miami.
Obviously the home and home with each other - a wash

Duke - VaT, FSU, Louisville, ND, Syracuse
UNC - GaT, Clemson, BC, NCSU, Pitt.

Looks to me that Duke's is tougher, at least pre-season on paper. Based on Jeff Goodman's thoughts, UNC has 2 of the 3 bottom feeders on the road. Although nothing is ever a true breather on the road in ACC, much rather play those two on the road this year than VaT in Blacksburg or up in Syracuse.


Also, a note on Isaiah Hicks - have talked with his high school coach (Hicks is from my town) who has been impressed with his weight and strengths gains this past year. Not mentioned by Wheat, though, is Hicks' difficulty staying on court with fouls. Last season, he averaged 7 fouls per 40 minutes. If he can stay out of foul trouble, he will be a load to handle.


Regarding the whole Duke vs UNC thing (how predictable was it that this thread would be sidetracked by that?!?!), I think you must look at schedules. UNC has a truly brutal, murderous stretch of games. Check out the end of Carolina's season.

at Duke
at NCST
vs. Virginia
vs. Louisville
at Pitt
at Virginia
vs. Duke

That is the toughest 7 game stretch of any team in the country, bar none! The Heels could play well in every one of those games and go 2-5. So, if Carolina seems to have a lead in the standings as the calendar turns from Jan to Feb, don't forget that the Heels must run a gauntlet at the end and I'll be stunned if they don't come out of it with at least 3 losses... probably more.

-Jason "the top tier team with the easiest ACC schedule is Louisville -- they only play Duke and UNC once each" Evans

You guys motivated me to start looking at the ACC schedule a bit. (A link with all the schedules on one page (http://www.theacc.com/news/acc-releases-men-conference-basketball-matchups-02-12-2016), for anyone else who wants to poke around)

Most interesting tidbit so far? Pitt has to play the top tier teams 9 times (using Goodman's five "lock" teams as the top tier). Every other ACC team only has to play the top tier 5 or 6 times. For example, Duke has to play the top tier 5 times, albeit 4 are on the road (UNC, @UNC, @UVA, @Lville, @Cuse). So yeah, I take back what I said in the early posts about Pitt being a "likely" tournament team. They're now a "maybe" to me.

Also, Jason, I think Syracuse edges out Louisville for easiest schedule among the top tier. (Putting aside for a second whether Syracuse belongs as a top tier team.) Louisville plays the top tier 6 times (3 home, 3 road) and Cuse plays them 5 times (3 home, 2 road). (They both only play Duke and UNC once.) Louisville only has 3 games against the bottom-tier of Wake-GaTech-BC, and Syracuse has 5 games against them.

And getting back to Duke for a sec. Those 4 road games against the top-tier stand out. UNC and Cuse have 2 such games. Louisville and UVA have 3 such games.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
10-18-2016, 11:19 AM
You guys motivated me to start looking at the ACC schedule a bit. (A link with all the schedules on one page (http://www.theacc.com/news/acc-releases-men-conference-basketball-matchups-02-12-2016), for anyone else who wants to poke around)

Most interesting tidbit so far? Pitt has to play the top tier teams 9 times (using Goodman's five "lock" teams as the top tier). Every other ACC team only has to play the top tier 5 or 6 times. For example, Duke has to play the top tier 5 times, albeit 4 are on the road (UNC, @UNC, @UVA, @Lville, @Cuse). So yeah, I take back what I said in the early posts about Pitt being a "likely" tournament team. They're now a "maybe" to me.

Also, Jason, I think Syracuse edges out Louisville for easiest schedule among the top tier. (Putting aside for a second whether Syracuse belongs as a top tier team.) Louisville plays the top tier 6 times (3 home, 3 road) and Cuse plays them 5 times (3 home, 2 road). Louisville only has 3 games against the bottom-tier of Wake-GaTech-BC, and Syracuse has 5 games against them.

And getting back to Duke for a sec. Those 4 road games against the top-tier stand out. UNC and Cuse have 2 such games. Louisville and UVA have 3 such games.

To be fair, when you are a "top tier team" you necessarily have one less top tier opponent.

Still, tough road for Pitt.

Troublemaker
10-18-2016, 11:37 AM
To be fair, when you are a "top tier team" you necessarily have one less top tier opponent.

Still, tough road for Pitt.

Right, but it still worked out that EVERY ACC team except Pitt plays 5 or 6 games against that tier, and Pitt plays 9 games against them. That's just really bad scheduling luck, if the top tier ends up playing like the top tier.

JasonEvans
10-18-2016, 12:44 PM
You guys motivated me to start looking at the ACC schedule a bit. (A link with all the schedules on one page (http://www.theacc.com/news/acc-releases-men-conference-basketball-matchups-02-12-2016), for anyone else who wants to poke around)

Most interesting tidbit so far? Pitt has to play the top tier teams 9 times (using Goodman's five "lock" teams as the top tier). Every other ACC team only has to play the top tier 5 or 6 times. For example, Duke has to play the top tier 5 times, albeit 4 are on the road (UNC, @UNC, @UVA, @Lville, @Cuse). So yeah, I take back what I said in the early posts about Pitt being a "likely" tournament team. They're now a "maybe" to me.

Also, Jason, I think Syracuse edges out Louisville for easiest schedule among the top tier. (Putting aside for a second whether Syracuse belongs as a top tier team.) Louisville plays the top tier 6 times (3 home, 3 road) and Cuse plays them 5 times (3 home, 2 road). (They both only play Duke and UNC once.) Louisville only has 3 games against the bottom-tier of Wake-GaTech-BC, and Syracuse has 5 games against them.

And getting back to Duke for a sec. Those 4 road games against the top-tier stand out. UNC and Cuse have 2 such games. Louisville and UVA have 3 such games.

I think a pretty solid case can be made that FSU, NCSt, and Va Tech are every bit as likely to finish in the top 5 in the conference as Syracuse is. I think placing Syracuse in the same tier as Duke, UNC, UVA, and Louisville is flawed methodology.

That said, your analysis is strong and you are right about Pitt having a murderous schedule this season. good stuff, my Troubled friend.

-Jason "do you feel like going back and re-doing your analysis without Syracuse?" Evans

Troublemaker
10-18-2016, 01:47 PM
I think a pretty solid case can be made that FSU, NCSt, and Va Tech are every bit as likely to finish in the top 5 in the conference as Syracuse is. I think placing Syracuse in the same tier as Duke, UNC, UVA, and Louisville is flawed methodology.

That said, your analysis is strong and you are right about Pitt having a murderous schedule this season. good stuff, my Troubled friend.

-Jason "do you feel like going back and re-doing your analysis without Syracuse?" Evans

Yes, I think I am interested.

I think I'm going to use 3 tiers to analyze the schedules:
- Top Tier - Duke, UNC, Louisville, UVA
- Bottom Tier - Wake, GaTech, BC
- Middle Tier - the remaining 8 teams

So basically I'm going to collapse Goodman's "Likely" teams and "Maybe" teams into one Middle Tier. Because I feel like there's more "eye of the beholder" differences in opinion about the Middle Tier. For example, I'm bullish on VaTech but I could see someone reasonably arguing, "The Hokies were 20-15 last season and have only made one NCAAT appearance in the past 20 years, and now they're a "likely" NCAA tournament team?"

Spanarkel
10-18-2016, 01:54 PM
FWIW, Frank Jackson was named to the Cousy Award Watch List(20 players in all, 4 other freshman, including Dennis Smith of NCS). I think it's a favorable sign of respect for his potential.

newclasspack
10-18-2016, 06:42 PM
I can Def. Do a Breakdown of State if anyone is interested. i find it polite to ask first before i just go posting stuff on other teams boards but i am def. excited about this season.

Olympic Fan
10-18-2016, 07:05 PM
I agree Grayson isn't a complete player, and his defense is pretty porous. But he's the most coveted player in college basketball (don't believe me? Check this out: http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/candid-coaches-duke-has-2-of-the-top-3-players-coaches-would-want-on-their-team/) and he's a proven commodity, which seems to be an important criteria for you.


I disagree about Grayson's completeness.

Let's look at the record:

1. Scoring ... not only was he the No. 2 scorer in the ACC last season, you could argue that he was the most efficient scorer -- at least among all perimeter players. His shooting percentages (46.6/41.7/83.7) were the best of any perimeter player in the ACC. He shot better than Malcolm Brogdon, the ACC POY, from both the floor and the 3-point line. He shot better than ACC scoring leader Cat Barber in every offensive category. He shot better than every Cheat guard in every category, except one -- Joal Berry was better from the FT line. I know some measures have Brice Johnson as a more efficient scorer, but Johnson only shot better than Allen from the field -- he didn't shot 3s and he was worse from the line ... and he didn't get to the foul line nearly as often.

I would argue that Grayson Allen was clearly the best (most efficient) scorer in the ACC last season.

2. Rebounding ... Allen was the best rebounding guard in the ACC last season. Period.

3. Playmaking ... Allen led Duke in assists. He had more assists than any non-point guard in the ACC. His assist-turnover ratio was in the upper half of all ACC guards.

4. Defense .... while I won't argue that Allen was one of the best defenders in the league, I will dispute your claim that he was "pretty porous". He played within K's defensive system and was NOT a liability. The fact that he had more steals than ACC Defensive Player of the Year Malcolm Brogdon is just a bonus -- I'm not arguing that Allen is in Brogdon's class as a defender.

Obviously, Allen can improve his playmaking and his defense. But last year, he was the best offensive player of the year, the best rebounding guard in the league and an above average playkaer (the best playmaker outside the point guards) ... and he was at least an average defender.

Everybody can get better, but Allen was pretty complete last season.

Aside from Malcolm Brogdon, who was more complete?

OldPhiKap
10-18-2016, 07:13 PM
Grayson completes me in ways I cannot explain.

Troublemaker
10-18-2016, 07:16 PM
I can Def. Do a Breakdown of State if anyone is interested. i find it polite to ask first before i just go posting stuff on other teams boards but i am def. excited about this season.

Yes, please do! The non-Duke player I'm most excited to see this season is Dennis Smith.

OldPhiKap
10-18-2016, 07:18 PM
Yes, please do! The non-Duke player I'm most excited to see this season is Dennis Smith.

Agreed on glad to have Pack breakdown from a fan!

devildeac
10-18-2016, 07:56 PM
I can Def. Do a Breakdown of State if anyone is interested. i find it polite to ask first before i just go posting stuff on other teams boards but i am def. excited about this season.

Would really enjoy reading your assessment of the Pack this year.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-18-2016, 09:06 PM
I can Def. Do a Breakdown of State if anyone is interested. i find it polite to ask first before i just go posting stuff on other teams boards but i am def. excited about this season.

What's the story on Beejay Anya?

I'm hearing he's coming in over 350lbs and out of shape...

Thx

Newton_14
10-18-2016, 09:37 PM
Please note I didn't say Tony Bradley was "ACC ready" or "very impressive". I said I read that and "we'll see".

I have a serious question for you.

Have you seen any of Dukes freshmen play or are you basing your opinions on the Internet * rating?
I know I follow CBB as close as anyone and I don't get that opportunity. Much less see them play against bigger, stronger, more experienced college players.

Assuming not, how can you seriously take a freshman over any of UNC's starting upper class?

Justin Jackson had 5*'s coming in too, and he's very talented, but anybody who looked at him objectively as a freshman could tell he had physical muturity issues and his * rating was based on potential,(which he is fulfilling after 2 full seasons).

Don't trust a website * system when evaluating freshmen, that's my tip for the day.

But I'll play your game, with the match ups I expect.

C-Meeks-Jefferson..slight edge to Jefferson
PF- Hicks-Giles...Hicks
sF- Jackson-Tatum...Jackson
2g-Pinson-Allen...Allen
PG-Berry-Jackson...Berry

UNC wins 3 of 5 in those match ups.

Bench...Britt has no PG matchup on Duke's bench. When he goes up against Jackson, and Berry slides to 2g, I'll take Britt over Jackson.
Kennard-Williams...edge to Kennard but Williams is a surprisingly good defender.
Bradley-Bolden?
Luke Maye will hold his own when he's in at PF for whoever he gets matched up with for his couple of minutes.

I have seen our Freshman twice now up close and personal in Duke Practices. The three top guys that have been participating (Tatum/Jackson/Bolden) are as good or better than advertised, and are certainly as good as their ranking. Tatum is better right now than Jackson is. He's that good. That's neither hyperbole nor wishful thinking. If people are hoping that our freshman are going to not be as good as advertised, they are going to be very disappointed. DeLaurier is raw, but very athletic, and also a 4 Yr kid. He can jump out of the gym but will need to develop his skillset over time. I have no idea how good or ready Giles will be, but it will be icing on the cake if he is able to be a high impact player.

The upperclassmen and returnees are looking very good, and Kennard is noticeably improved. Amile is bigger and stronger than he was and has really improved his ball handling. Duke is deep with a great mix of stud freshman and a solid core of upperclassmen, one of which is pre-season National Player of the Year, and another is a 5th Year Senior Big who has a ton of playing experience... add Sr Matt Jones to the mix and it is just a super talented team. I have not been this giddy over a Duke teams prospects since 1999.

I certainly expect the group from Chapel Hill to be good, but they do not have the level of talent that Duke has this season. Doesn't mean they can't or won't beat Duke, it just means they are not holding the best cards at the table.

This Duke Team is going to be very strong. Of that I am convinced and all of the praise they have been receiving is warranted.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-18-2016, 10:06 PM
I have seen our Freshman twice now up close and personal in Duke Practices. The three top guys that have been participating (Tatum/Jackson/Bolden) are as good or better than advertised, and are certainly as good as their ranking. Tatum is better right now than Jackson is. He's that good. That's neither hyperbole nor wishful thinking. If people are hoping that our freshman are going to not be as good as advertised, they are going to be very disappointed. DeLaurier is raw, but very athletic, and also a 4 Yr kid. He can jump out of the gym but will need to develop his skillset over time. I have no idea how good or ready Giles will be, but it will be icing on the cake if he is able to be a high impact player.

The upperclassmen and returnees are looking very good, and Kennard is noticeably improved. Amile is bigger and stronger than he was and has really improved his ball handling. Duke is deep with a great mix of stud freshman and a solid core of upperclassmen, one of which is pre-season National Player of the Year, and another is a 5th Year Senior Big who has a ton of playing experience... add Sr Matt Jones to the mix and it is just a super talented team. I have not been this giddy over a Duke teams prospects since 1999.

I certainly expect the group from Chapel Hill to be good, but they do not have the level of talent that Duke has this season. Doesn't mean they can't or won't beat Duke, it just means they are not holding the best cards at the table.

This Duke Team is going to be very strong. Of that I am convinced and all of the praise they have been receiving is warranted.

I was impressed with Jeffersons improvement last year pre-injury, and expect him to be better a year older and rehabbed. I'd expect Kennard to be better too with a year under his belt, and he was good last year.

I don't doubt these freshman kids are very good players, I just was curious if Kedsey had seen them since he said he'd take Duke's freshmen in "every single matchup" against UNC players.

I've been hearing that Tatum is the real deal, look forward to seeing him.

We know Duke's got the players to be really good. But so does UNC.

It will be settled on the court, as it should be.

NSDukeFan
10-19-2016, 05:43 AM
I was impressed with Jeffersons improvement last year pre-injury, and expect him to be better a year older and rehabbed. I'd expect Kennard to be better too with a year under his belt, and he was good last year.

I don't doubt these freshman kids are very good players, I just was curious if Kedsey had seen them since he said he'd take Duke's freshmen in "every single matchup" against UNC players.

I've been hearing that Tatum is the real deal, look forward to seeing him.

We know Duke's got the players to be really good. But so does UNC.

It will be settled on the court, as it should be.
Settled on the court? You are on the wrong board. It will be settled on Sagarin and KenPom rankings as the court provides too small a sample size. 😀

Indoor66
10-19-2016, 07:00 AM
I was impressed with Jeffersons improvement last year pre-injury, and expect him to be better a year older and rehabbed. I'd expect Kennard to be better too with a year under his belt, and he was good last year.

I don't doubt these freshman kids are very good players, I just was curious if Kedsey had seen them since he said he'd take Duke's freshmen in "every single matchup" against UNC players.

I've been hearing that Tatum is the real deal, look forward to seeing him.

We know Duke's got the players to be really good. But so does UNC.

It will be settled on the court, as it should be.

It amazes me at the amazement on the quality of Jefferson's play or performance. His pedigree is pure and his experience is plentiful. He came in, no matter the rankings and such, as one of the absolutely best (if not the best) players out of Philadelphia. That is an accomplished, talented player to reach that point. No that he has this level of both physical and mental maturity, as well as his experience, it is not any surprise that he looks good, improved, or whatever. He will be the heart and soul of this team. Talent is great but coming out of high school to the highest level of college ball is a HUGE transition - and the greatest transition is for big men who cannot dominate and move based solely on their size. That is quite an adjustment.

Spanarkel
10-19-2016, 10:00 AM
It was getting late and I did short my comments on Duke players, not an intentional slight, I sure don't underestimate them.



Jones is the typical glue guy you need for a high level team. When I say he's a "utility" player, that's a big compliment because every team needs those guys that can play anywhere on the floor. He can shoot it with time, he's a smart defender, he's strong and a solid rebounder and passer.

🙈

Wheat, as a Duke partisan, I'll admit that I enjoy reading your postings. Just a minor area of disagreement: while I appreciate Matt Jones' contributions to the Duke squad, I don't view him as much of a rebounder('15-'16 season: 88 boards in over 1100 minutes, or 1 per 12.6 minutes, vs. GA's 1 every 8 minutes). Thanks.

duke043
10-19-2016, 10:14 AM
Would love to learn more about State.

duke043
10-19-2016, 10:21 AM
I’m not a betting man, but I think Vegas odds makers often make the best preseason picks. They have to! If they’re wrong, they lose money.
To some extent, they must anticipate public betting behavior, but still, they tend to be better than lazy sports writers.
Here is what Vegas says this year. (The ACC -in red - is pretty well represented)
Odds to win NCAA tournament:
1. Duke 7/2
2. Kentucky 11/1
3. Kansas 12/1
4. No Carolina 16/1
5. Oregon 16/1
6. Wisconsin 18/1
7. Arizona 20/1
8. Syracuse 20/1
9. Mich State 22/1
10. Villanova 25/1
11. Virginia 25/1
12. Indiana 30/1
13. Louisville 35/1
14. UConn 50/1
15. Texas 50/1
16. Xavier 50/1
17. Gonzaga 50/1
18. Purdue 50/1
19. UCLA 60/1
20. Maryland 65/1

nocilla
10-19-2016, 11:28 AM
It amazes me at the amazement on the quality of Jefferson's play or performance. His pedigree is pure and his experience is plentiful. He came in, no matter the rankings and such, as one of the absolutely best (if not the best) players out of Philadelphia. That is an accomplished, talented player to reach that point. No that he has this level of both physical and mental maturity, as well as his experience, it is not any surprise that he looks good, improved, or whatever. He will be the heart and soul of this team. Talent is great but coming out of high school to the highest level of college ball is a HUGE transition - and the greatest transition is for big men who cannot dominate and move based solely on their size. That is quite an adjustment.

I think Amile will be our emotional leader too. He seems to have a steady head and knows how to talk to the guys. Grayson will provide emotional sparks with big plays but Amile seems like the veteran that guys will lean on.

arnie
10-19-2016, 11:54 AM
What's the story on Beejay Anya?

I'm hearing he's coming in over 350lbs and out of shape...

Thx

No, you're thinking of Sean May.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-19-2016, 11:59 AM
Wheat, as a Duke partisan, I'll admit that I enjoy reading your postings. Just a minor area of disagreement: while I appreciate Matt Jones' contributions to the Duke squad, I don't view him as much of a rebounder('15-'16 season: 88 boards in over 1100 minutes, or 1 per 12.6 minutes, vs. GA's 1 every 8 minutes). Thanks.

This is one of those cases where I don't think the stats show the real story. I think he's a solid rebounder when he's in there.

I just don't see him crash the boards all that much. Maybe it's just my take, but it seems that coach K usually has him lay back for transition D and has his guards attack the glass.

Wander
10-19-2016, 12:10 PM
This is one of those cases where I don't think the stats show the real story. I think he's a solid rebounder when he's in there.

I just don't see him crash the boards all that much. Maybe it's just my take, but it seems that coach K usually has him lay back for transition D and has his guards attack the glass.

Matt Jones is a terrible rebounder. It was a big problem last year given that we played him at the 3 a lot and that defensive rebounding was by far our biggest weak point. You seem to be assuming that because Matt is a "glue guy" he must be good at rebounder. He's good at a lot of things, but this is not one of them.

Troublemaker
10-19-2016, 12:19 PM
Matt's rebounding rates last season (3.6% O, 5.1% D) were the worst of his career. Part of that had to do with him spending more time away from the basket, playing a decent amount of PG on offense and guarding the PG on defense.

His rebounding rates his sophomore (5.1% O, 7.5% D) and freshman (5.5% O, 8.5% D) seasons were much better -- excellent on the offensive glass for his position, and average on the defensive glass. (He was especially good on the offensive glass in ACC games in 2015 -- 8.2%). He can get back to those percentages if he plays more on the wing this season. I'm hoping between Grayson and Frank playing point, that can happen.

COYS
10-19-2016, 12:27 PM
Matt Jones is a terrible rebounder. It was a big problem last year given that we played him at the 3 a lot and that defensive rebounding was by far our biggest weak point. You seem to be assuming that because Matt is a "glue guy" he must be good at rebounder. He's good at a lot of things, but this is not one of them.

I totally agree with this. Rebounding rate is often cited alongside steal-rate by NBA scouts to measure the general athleticism of college players, as these two stats tend to translate to the NBA pretty well. For guards, especially, a strong rebounding rate requires some combination of leaping ability to rise up and snatch boards away from other wing players/forwards and quickness to hunt down long rebounds. Matt has neither of these tools, and this is corroborated by both the eye test (in which he does not appear to jump high or possess elite quickness) and the stats, which show him as a below average rebounder . . . especially for a 6-5 guard with his strength.

I would add a caveat to say that Matt spend a decent portion of last season nursing a bad ankle injury. Because his speed, quickness, and leaping ability are already below average for the elite college level, even a marginal loss in any of these categories can have a major effect on his game. Hopefully he will enjoy a fully healthy senior season and show a corresponding improvement, even if minor, in rebounding. Also, Matt possesses the strength to box out bigger players, which can improve the chances that another Duke player, even if it isn't Matt, is able to get to a missed shot. So there are ways that Matt can positively affect Duke's rebounding even if he's not hauling in an impressive share of boards, himself.

Also, I'd just like to say that I also see Matt as a key cog in this year's team. He is the perfect 3&D low-usage/high-efficiency (hopefully) role player to round out an offense that needs effective long-range shooting to space the floor. And his experience and leadership will be essential on defense and in team huddle and the locker room.

But I definitely think that the rebounding will be left up to Amile, Marques, Jayson, Grayson and Luke, for the most part. If we start relying on Matt to secure boards, we are in trouble.

MChambers
10-19-2016, 01:32 PM
No, you're thinking of Sean May.

Apparently I must spread the love around, but I thought this was great.

madscavenger
10-19-2016, 02:11 PM
.................................................. .......I'd just like to say that I also see Matt as a key cog in this year's team. He is the perfect 3&D low-usage/high-efficiency (hopefully) role player to round out an offense that needs effective long-range shooting to space the floor. And his experience and leadership will be essential on defense and in team huddle and the locker room. .

If his ankles are OK (haven't heard that they aren't), Matt is going to start. Pre-season comments relegating him to a role player had been widespread both last year and the year before. Didn't happen. Why? You said it all in your last sentence. And he has K's confidence. Matt will start.

newclasspack
10-19-2016, 02:24 PM
Ok So State basketball I'm beyond excited.

Let me get the Obvious out of the way First. Dennis Smith.

I grew up with Both J. Wall and CJ Leslie and as much as i wanted to see the latter succeed, His heart was never in it. From the times I've seen Dennis his whole motivation is to be the best. losing is unacceptable. He doesn't make excuses he just gets better. I've never seen an 18 year old so self motivated. it is scary. Reports from practice are coming in that he's not only at a higher level than everyone else right now, but Evan Daniels Said he's "far and away better than Cat Barber was.. Last year as a junior"

Next Terry Henderson is Probably our starting 2. He's been rusty but reports are showing he's gonna be hard to keep on the bench. He's worked a ton on his Defense and leadership. He's just ready to play its been 2 year. He shot 37% from 3 at WVU as a third option and if he can maintain plus be a tough defender then i'll be happy with whatever else we get out of him. He's also really athletic as well being one of 5 guys to post over a 40 inch vert at our BAM testing earlier last month.

Torin Dorn is who i'm most excited about. was under recruited as a HS player due to starting basketball late(he comes from a football family his Dad played at a Community College in Chapel Hill and his Younger brother also decided to play as said Community college) and Injury and played out of Position at PG last year. Ran PG for scout team last year and is our third best ball handler. He's a solid 6'6" and Built like a tight End or a full back. Think about how Strong Winslow was. that's about strong Dorn is. He's can Guard 4 spots on the floor effective, Handle and pass to the open man, Drive and slash to the basket with either hand and hit an open jump with some consistency. While most people think Maverick was set as a starter i always felt that Dorn was gonna take that role and Outside of Dennis and Malik he's has the best practices so far and is looking like a lock for that starter spot.

Malik is finally gonna play at his natural position at the 4 full time. He's been working almost exclusive on his pick and roll/pop 15 footers and post moves. We all expect a big year out of him especially with Dennis running the show. He's actually had number last year that were almost identical to Richard Howell's Senior year numbers. He's so efficient around the basket.

Yurtseven. Chatter around the program is that he will be cleared. i honestly don't expect him to miss anymore than 4 game IF any at all. Him and Dennis have been working on there Chemistry and have a really good feel for their pick and roll. The kid dropped 91 and 28 on what was the equivalent of High Level AAU talent, Heck He could have done it on a middle school team and it would have been impressive. He models his game after Tim Duncan and you can see it in how he goes after tip back and works the post. and His footwork is incredible.


Maverick Rowan is our 6th Man imo. Last year he averaged 12.9 points a game But on 36% shooting. He shot 33% from 3 but 39% from the rest of the field. I feel like due to our short roster and in injuries he had no choice but to be our second option but that is just horrific shooting form a shooter or anyone else for that matter. i think coming off the bench will allow him to get his shots at a better much more efficient pace. He also has grown from 6'6" to 6'*" and Gott says he will see time as a stretch four.


Anya is from what i hear at 322ish right now. he came in at 344 last month. IMO he didn't look it and hasn't looked it but it is the official weight. but he's lost 22 pounds in a month. I think he see 18 to 25 minutes and gives us what he's always given us. He's 15th all time in Blocks in the ACC and can realistically get all the way up to 3rd with a very good year.

Freeman is Red-shirting due to the progress our freshman bigs have shown in Practice Gott says he's comfortable with that decision and Freeman can finally take a full season to heal.

Shaun Kirk has improved by all accounts form everyone i've talked to in almost every aspect of his came but we all still think he's a year away from being a consistent contributor.

Markell Johnson is someone i'm really excited about 6'1" with almost 6'6" wingspan He's the first player from a Cleveland Public school to get a D1 scholarship in 20 years. He graduated early to come play behind Dennis and he has all the tools. a Freak athlete with a 40+ vert. He has great passing instincts and might be a better pure ball handler than DSJr. He's hellacious defender and a streaky shooter that can improve over time. He has all the pieces his biggest weakness is that he's doesn't know how to lead a team and put all his talent together which has me excited because that's exactly what he will learn playing behind Dennis.

Ted Kapita is a Carved marble state brough to life... seriously..

http://media.scout.com/media/image/160/1609575.jpg

He's a monster. he is still waiting to hear from the NCAA his eligibility is more shrouded in mystery than Yurts. But if he's eligible we have a strong defender and rebound who shot 50% from the field 80% from the line and 60% from three in HS. He's been hitting some threes in Practice too as well. Whenever he gets ont he court he will be a high level impact player immediately.

Darius Hicks was a High Three Star low four star recruit that decommitted from Miss State and decided to come here. have been hearing he's better than expected but will still only see signficant time if both Yurt and Kapita are out long term

We have three walks on that either had Scholorship offers or were on schollys for other teams

Tucker Thompson is a Local who played for Western Carolina two years ago
Cam Gottfreid Coach Gott's son played two years at Sienna in NY.
and Spencer Newman had a Scholarship offer to Oklahoma State before deciding to come walk on here and try and earn a scholarship.


Also hearing the Gott has turned the defense over to his new asst coach Schroyer who has been working on an amoeba zone defense and a 3/4 press D.

Troublemaker
10-19-2016, 02:35 PM
SI's Projection System predicts the ACC (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2016/10/18/acc-preview-duke-north-carolina-virginia-louisville)

The system was created by Dan Hanner and Luke Winn and apparently has been the best at preseason projections the past two years (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2016/10/12/team-rankings-projections-predictions-system) -- better than Kenpom.

devildeac
10-19-2016, 02:48 PM
Ok So State basketball I'm beyond excited.

Let me get the Obvious out of the way First. Dennis Smith.

I grew up with Both J. Wall and CJ Leslie and as much as i wanted to see the latter succeed, His heart was never in it. From the times I've seen Dennis his whole motivation is to be the best. losing is unacceptable. He doesn't make excuses he just gets better. I've never seen an 18 year old so self motivated. it is scary. Reports from practice are coming in that he's not only at a higher level than everyone else right now, but Evan Daniels Said he's "far and away better than Cat Barber was.. Last year as a junior"

Next Terry Henderson is Probably our starting 2. He's been rusty but reports are showing he's gonna be hard to keep on the bench. He's worked a ton on his Defense and leadership. He's just ready to play its been 2 year. He shot 37% from 3 at WVU as a third option and if he can maintain plus be a tough defender then i'll be happy with whatever else we get out of him. He's also really athletic as well being one of 5 guys to post over a 40 inch vert at our BAM testing earlier last month.

Torin Dorn is who i'm most excited about. was under recruited as a HS player due to starting basketball late(he comes from a football family his Dad played at a Community College in Chapel Hill and his Younger brother also decided to play as said Community college) and Injury and played out of Position at PG last year. Ran PG for scout team last year and is our third best ball handler. He's a solid 6'6" and Built like a tight End or a full back. Think about how Strong Winslow was. that's about strong Dorn is. He's can Guard 4 spots on the floor effective, Handle and pass to the open man, Drive and slash to the basket with either hand and hit an open jump with some consistency. While most people think Maverick was set as a starter i always felt that Dorn was gonna take that role and Outside of Dennis and Malik he's has the best practices so far and is looking like a lock for that starter spot.

Malik is finally gonna play at his natural position at the 4 full time. He's been working almost exclusive on his pick and roll/pop 15 footers and post moves. We all expect a big year out of him especially with Dennis running the show. He's actually had number last year that were almost identical to Richard Howell's Senior year numbers. He's so efficient around the basket.

Yurtseven. Chatter around the program is that he will be cleared. i honestly don't expect him to miss anymore than 4 game IF any at all. Him and Dennis have been working on there Chemistry and have a really good feel for their pick and roll. The kid dropped 91 and 28 on what was the equivalent of High Level AAU talent, Heck He could have done it on a middle school team and it would have been impressive. He models his game after Tim Duncan and you can see it in how he goes after tip back and works the post. and His footwork is incredible.


Maverick Rowan is our 6th Man imo. Last year he averaged 12.9 points a game But on 36% shooting. He shot 33% from 3 but 39% from the rest of the field. I feel like due to our short roster and in injuries he had no choice but to be our second option but that is just horrific shooting form a shooter or anyone else for that matter. i think coming off the bench will allow him to get his shots at a better much more efficient pace. He also has grown from 6'6" to 6'*" and Gott says he will see time as a stretch four.


Anya is from what i hear at 322ish right now. he came in at 344 last month. IMO he didn't look it and hasn't looked it but it is the official weight. but he's lost 22 pounds in a month. I think he see 18 to 25 minutes and gives us what he's always given us. He's 15th all time in Blocks in the ACC and can realistically get all the way up to 3rd with a very good year.

Freeman is Red-shirting due to the progress our freshman bigs have shown in Practice Gott says he's comfortable with that decision and Freeman can finally take a full season to heal.

Shaun Kirk has improved by all accounts form everyone i've talked to in almost every aspect of his came but we all still think he's a year away from being a consistent contributor.

Markell Johnson is someone i'm really excited about 6'1" with almost 6'6" wingspan He's the first player from a Cleveland Public school to get a D1 scholarship in 20 years. He graduated early to come play behind Dennis and he has all the tools. a Freak athlete with a 40+ vert. He has great passing instincts and might be a better pure ball handler than DSJr. He's hellacious defender and a streaky shooter that can improve over time. He has all the pieces his biggest weakness is that he's doesn't know how to lead a team and put all his talent together which has me excited because that's exactly what he will learn playing behind Dennis.

Ted Kapita is a Carved marble state brough to life... seriously..

http://media.scout.com/media/image/160/1609575.jpg

He's a monster. he is still waiting to hear from the NCAA his eligibility is more shrouded in mystery than Yurts. But if he's eligible we have a strong defender and rebound who shot 50% from the field 80% from the line and 60% from three in HS. He's been hitting some threes in Practice too as well. Whenever he gets ont he court he will be a high level impact player immediately.

Darius Hicks was a High Three Star low four star recruit that decommitted from Miss State and decided to come here. have been hearing he's better than expected but will still only see signficant time if both Yurt and Kapita are out long term

We have three walks on that either had Scholorship offers or were on schollys for other teams

Tucker Thompson is a Local who played for Western Carolina two years ago
Cam Gottfreid Coach Gott's son played two years at Sienna in NY.
and Spencer Newman had a Scholarship offer to Oklahoma State before deciding to come walk on here and try and earn a scholarship.


Also hearing the Gott has turned the defense over to his new asst coach Schroyer who has been working on an amoeba zone defense and a 3/4 press D.

Good stuff. Thanks for taking the time/effort to post. From that write-up, they should be good enough to beat the cheaters. At least twice. :rolleyes:;)

MChambers
10-19-2016, 03:09 PM
SI's Projection System predicts the ACC (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2016/10/18/acc-preview-duke-north-carolina-virginia-louisville)

The system was created by Dan Hanner and Luke Winn and apparently has been the best at preseason projections the past two years (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2016/10/12/team-rankings-projections-predictions-system) -- better than Kenpom.

The system even predicts minutes distribution. We've been replaced by a computer!

newclasspack
10-19-2016, 03:32 PM
Good stuff. Thanks for taking the time/effort to post. From that write-up, they should be good enough to beat the cheaters. At least twice. :rolleyes:;)FWIW i think we are good enough to be 3 in the AC. I think we have the horses to beat you on any given night but not overtake you for number 1. I think UVA is Loaded and if they live up to their potential can be Number 2. I think we are better than both UNC and Syracuse. and i think we are head to head with UofL

Ichabod Drain
10-19-2016, 03:45 PM
SI's Projection System predicts the ACC (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2016/10/18/acc-preview-duke-north-carolina-virginia-louisville)

The system was created by Dan Hanner and Luke Winn and apparently has been the best at preseason projections the past two years (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2016/10/12/team-rankings-projections-predictions-system) -- better than Kenpom.

FWIW Kenpom admits his system isn't worth much in the pre season.

COYS
10-19-2016, 05:25 PM
SI's Projection System predicts the ACC (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2016/10/18/acc-preview-duke-north-carolina-virginia-louisville)

The system was created by Dan Hanner and Luke Winn and apparently has been the best at preseason projections the past two years (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2016/10/12/team-rankings-projections-predictions-system) -- better than Kenpom.

Thanks for sharing. It was interesting reading the breakdown of how SI's projection system works. One thing that I thought was really interesting is that second only to returning veteran stars (players that played at least 50% of their team's minutes and posted a offensive rating north of 120), top 10 freshman are the surest thing in college basketball. 76% of top 10 freshmen become what the model terms "efficient starters," or players who play more than 50% of the game and have an offensive rating greater than 110.

So while the old adage that the best thing about freshman is that they become sophomores might have been true at one point, it seems clear that in the OAD era, top 10 freshmen are almost as certain to perform well as returning stars like Grayson. In fact, top 10 freshmen have a much better chance of succeeding than returning vets who played well the previous year but weren't quite stars, who only become efficient starters 50% of the time.

Theoretically, it would make more sense to build a team consisting of purely top 10 freshmen than it would to build a team of really good but not quite star-quality returnees.

While I think the idea that Duke needs to rely on freshmen this year has been a little overblown by some (Luke, Matt, Grayson and Amile are an extremely talented crop of returning veterans), it gives me a little bit more confidence to know that expecting Jayson (and Harry, when he's fully fit) to thrive is a really good bet to take.

Newton_14
10-19-2016, 10:21 PM
Matt Jones is a terrible rebounder. It was a big problem last year given that we played him at the 3 a lot and that defensive rebounding was by far our biggest weak point. You seem to be assuming that because Matt is a "glue guy" he must be good at rebounder. He's good at a lot of things, but this is not one of them.

Yeah rebounding was not a strong suit for Matt last year. Not sure if injuries played a role there or not, but he can definitely improve in that area. One factoid I was going to save for the Phase 0 Post, I will share now. I spoke directly with a person inside the program recently and they said Matt's team won every single time over the summer whether they were playing pick up games or cards or video games. Dude ran the table all summer, even in pickup games where Grayson was on the other team. I think that might be evidence of a guy who 'makes everyone around him better" as the old adage goes....

Whether he is a starter or plays a 6th man role this year ala Scheyer and Nate Badass, he will be in the rotation and in the mix.

(I know you weren't suggesting he wouldn't, I just chose to put this in the reply. Fully agree on the rebound thingy)

Olympic Fan
10-19-2016, 11:14 PM
SI's Projection System predicts the ACC (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2016/10/18/acc-preview-duke-north-carolina-virginia-louisville)

The system was created by Dan Hanner and Luke Winn and apparently has been the best at preseason projections the past two years (http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2016/10/12/team-rankings-projections-predictions-system) -- better than Kenpom.

Frankly, not very impressed -- Louisville way too low ... Syracuse way too high.

And he's got Virginia Tech worse in the ACC this year than last year?

How does that work?

Wander
10-19-2016, 11:20 PM
Yeah rebounding was not a strong suit for Matt last year. Not sure if injuries played a role there or not, but he can definitely improve in that area. One factoid I was going to save for the Phase 0 Post, I will share now. I spoke directly with a person inside the program recently and they said Matt's team won every single time over the summer whether they were playing pick up games or cards or video games. Dude ran the table all summer, even in pickup games where Grayson was on the other team. I think that might be evidence of a guy who 'makes everyone around him better" as the old adage goes...

Whether he is a starter or plays a 6th man role this year ala Scheyer and Nate Badass, he will be in the rotation and in the mix.

(I know you weren't suggesting he wouldn't, I just chose to put this in the reply. Fully agree on the rebound thingy)

I agree. I would not be surprised to see Matt get a starting position over one of the hyped freshmen.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-20-2016, 12:20 AM
Ok So State basketball I'm beyond excited.

Let me get the Obvious out of the way First. Dennis Smith.

I grew up with Both J. Wall and CJ Leslie and as much as i wanted to see the latter succeed, His heart was never in it. From the times I've seen Dennis his whole motivation is to be the best. losing is unacceptable. He doesn't make excuses he just gets better. I've never seen an 18 year old so self motivated. it is scary. Reports from practice are coming in that he's not only at a higher level than everyone else right now, but Evan Daniels Said he's "far and away better than Cat Barber was.. Last year as a junior"

Next Terry Henderson is Probably our starting 2. He's been rusty but reports are showing he's gonna be hard to keep on the bench. He's worked a ton on his Defense and leadership. He's just ready to play its been 2 year. He shot 37% from 3 at WVU as a third option and if he can maintain plus be a tough defender then i'll be happy with whatever else we get out of him. He's also really athletic as well being one of 5 guys to post over a 40 inch vert at our BAM testing earlier last month.

Torin Dorn is who i'm most excited about. was under recruited as a HS player due to starting basketball late(he comes from a football family his Dad played at a Community College in Chapel Hill and his Younger brother also decided to play as said Community college) and Injury and played out of Position at PG last year. Ran PG for scout team last year and is our third best ball handler. He's a solid 6'6" and Built like a tight End or a full back. Think about how Strong Winslow was. that's about strong Dorn is. He's can Guard 4 spots on the floor effective, Handle and pass to the open man, Drive and slash to the basket with either hand and hit an open jump with some consistency. While most people think Maverick was set as a starter i always felt that Dorn was gonna take that role and Outside of Dennis and Malik he's has the best practices so far and is looking like a lock for that starter spot.

Malik is finally gonna play at his natural position at the 4 full time. He's been working almost exclusive on his pick and roll/pop 15 footers and post moves. We all expect a big year out of him especially with Dennis running the show. He's actually had number last year that were almost identical to Richard Howell's Senior year numbers. He's so efficient around the basket.

Yurtseven. Chatter around the program is that he will be cleared. i honestly don't expect him to miss anymore than 4 game IF any at all. Him and Dennis have been working on there Chemistry and have a really good feel for their pick and roll. The kid dropped 91 and 28 on what was the equivalent of High Level AAU talent, Heck He could have done it on a middle school team and it would have been impressive. He models his game after Tim Duncan and you can see it in how he goes after tip back and works the post. and His footwork is incredible.


Maverick Rowan is our 6th Man imo. Last year he averaged 12.9 points a game But on 36% shooting. He shot 33% from 3 but 39% from the rest of the field. I feel like due to our short roster and in injuries he had no choice but to be our second option but that is just horrific shooting form a shooter or anyone else for that matter. i think coming off the bench will allow him to get his shots at a better much more efficient pace. He also has grown from 6'6" to 6'*" and Gott says he will see time as a stretch four.


Anya is from what i hear at 322ish right now. he came in at 344 last month. IMO he didn't look it and hasn't looked it but it is the official weight. but he's lost 22 pounds in a month. I think he see 18 to 25 minutes and gives us what he's always given us. He's 15th all time in Blocks in the ACC and can realistically get all the way up to 3rd with a very good year.

Freeman is Red-shirting due to the progress our freshman bigs have shown in Practice Gott says he's comfortable with that decision and Freeman can finally take a full season to heal.

Shaun Kirk has improved by all accounts form everyone i've talked to in almost every aspect of his came but we all still think he's a year away from being a consistent contributor.

Markell Johnson is someone i'm really excited about 6'1" with almost 6'6" wingspan He's the first player from a Cleveland Public school to get a D1 scholarship in 20 years. He graduated early to come play behind Dennis and he has all the tools. a Freak athlete with a 40+ vert. He has great passing instincts and might be a better pure ball handler than DSJr. He's hellacious defender and a streaky shooter that can improve over time. He has all the pieces his biggest weakness is that he's doesn't know how to lead a team and put all his talent together which has me excited because that's exactly what he will learn playing behind Dennis.

Ted Kapita is a Carved marble state brough to life... seriously..

http://media.scout.com/media/image/160/1609575.jpg

He's a monster. he is still waiting to hear from the NCAA his eligibility is more shrouded in mystery than Yurts. But if he's eligible we have a strong defender and rebound who shot 50% from the field 80% from the line and 60% from three in HS. He's been hitting some threes in Practice too as well. Whenever he gets ont he court he will be a high level impact player immediately.

Darius Hicks was a High Three Star low four star recruit that decommitted from Miss State and decided to come here. have been hearing he's better than expected but will still only see signficant time if both Yurt and Kapita are out long term

We have three walks on that either had Scholorship offers or were on schollys for other teams

Tucker Thompson is a Local who played for Western Carolina two years ago
Cam Gottfreid Coach Gott's son played two years at Sienna in NY.
and Spencer Newman had a Scholarship offer to Oklahoma State before deciding to come walk on here and try and earn a scholarship.


Also hearing the Gott has turned the defense over to his new asst coach Schroyer who has been working on an amoeba zone defense and a 3/4 press D.

I admire the enthusiasm, thanks for posting.

Hope you stick around all season and chime in as it all unfolds.

Troublemaker
10-20-2016, 12:25 AM
Frankly, not very impressed -- Louisville way too low ... Syracuse way too high.

And he's got Virginia Tech worse in the ACC this year than last year?

How does that work?

I think the standings were solid. I would place Louisville higher, too, but we could be wrong. And 11-7 for Syracuse is about what I'm expecting.

But really, I think it's the player projections (points and efficiency) not the standings projections that are interesting. You can quickly get a sense of which players each team is relying on for points, even if the projections will inevitably underrate or overrate certain players.

Troublemaker
10-20-2016, 01:20 AM
ACC Schedule Matrix to "At a Glance" Compare Schedule Strengths

Here's a table that I hope some will find useful and also hopefully easy to understand.

It breaks down how often each ACC team plays a Top-Tier team at home and on the road, how often they play a Mid-Tier team at home and on the road, and how often they play a Low-Tier team at home and on the road.

Top Tier: Duke, UNC, UVA, Louisville
Mid Tier: Syracuse, NCSU, VaTech, Clemson, FSU, Pitt, Notre Dame, Miami
Low Tier: Wake, GaTech, BC

I highlighted UVA and Louisville as an example below. You should be able to look at the table and tell that Louisville clearly has a schedule advantage on UVA. If you can see that, then I have succeeded in making a useful matrix, I think.




Team
#Top at Home
#Top on Road
#Mid at Home
#Mid on Road
#Low at Home
#Low on Road


Duke
1
3
5
5
3
1


UNC
3
2
6
4
0
3


UVA
3
2
4
6
2
1


Lville
2
2
7
4
0
3


Cuse
3
2
3
5
3
2


NCSU
2
3
5
3
2
3


VaTech
2
3
4
5
3
1


Clemson
2
2
4
5
3
2


FSU
2
3
5
5
2
1


Pitt
3
4
6
2
0
3


ND
3
2
3
5
3
2


Miami
2
3
5
5
2
1


WFU
3
2
4
6
2
1


GaTech
2
2
6
6
1
1


BC
3
1
5
6
1
2

Troublemaker
10-20-2016, 01:23 AM
Also, don't get hung up on which team belongs in which tier. I know that surprises will occur. Heck, I myself suspect that either NCSU or Syracuse will break through into the Top Tier this season.

But these teams in these tiers are how the majority of ACC fans views things in the preseason, imo.

Indoor66
10-20-2016, 08:19 AM
Regarding Matt and rebounding last year: it is hard to jump with bad ankles. Let's be fair.

BD80
10-20-2016, 08:36 AM
Regarding Matt and rebounding last year: it is hard to jump with bad ankles. Let's be fair.

Yeah, that's the ticket. I was just explaining my own poor rebounding stats to my wife, Morgan Fairchild, I mean Kate Upton.

devildeac
10-20-2016, 09:18 AM
Yeah, that's the ticket. I was just explaining my own poor rebounding stats to my wife, Morgan Fairchild, I mean Kate Upton.

FDD has already claimed Kate as his beloved spouse so you'd better find another victim, err, partner. :rolleyes:

superdave
10-20-2016, 09:29 AM
The system even predicts minutes distribution. We've been replaced by a computer!

No way Grayson plays 85% of the minutes. He cant even get on the court in practice!

flyingdutchdevil
10-20-2016, 09:56 AM
FDD has already claimed Kate as his beloved spouse so you'd better find another victim, err, partner. :rolleyes:

Damn straight. BD80 - get your own fantasy!

flyingdutchdevil
10-20-2016, 10:06 AM
No way Grayson plays 85% of the minutes. He cant even get on the court in practice!

Obviously your second sentence is tongue-in-cheek, but I'm curious about your first.

Personally, I don't want to go into a minute discussion, but I think the ranking of minutes is pretty interesting. My take:

1. Grayson
2. Jefferson
3. Tatum
4. Jones
5. Kennard
6. Jackson
7. Giles
8. Bolden
(9.) Jeter

Sorry for going into minutes :(

Indoor66
10-20-2016, 10:09 AM
Sorry for going into minutes :(

Yeah, cause now the thread will be lost for days, if not hours! :mad::p:cool:

grad_devil
10-20-2016, 10:18 AM
Yeah, cause now the thread will be lost for days, if not hours! :mad::p:cool:

So, in increments of 1440 or 60 minutes?

flyingdutchdevil
10-20-2016, 10:33 AM
Yeah, cause now the thread will be lost for days, if not hours! :mad::p:cool:

I will take angry flames as punishment. But, in fairness, this year has been pretty mild on the minutes discussion, despite a year that actually warrants minute discussions (9 players who will get playing time for sure pre-season ACC and maybe a surprise or two like Vrank / DeLaurier).

Kedsy
10-20-2016, 11:15 AM
Also, don't get hung up on which team belongs in which tier. I know that surprises will occur. Heck, I myself suspect that either NCSU or Syracuse will break through into the Top Tier this season.

But these teams in these tiers are how the majority of ACC fans views things in the preseason, imo.

Thanks, Troublemaker. Pitt's schedule still stands out. Every other team in the league either plays 4 or 5 games against the "top tier," but Pitt plays 7.

Indoor66
10-20-2016, 11:15 AM
I will take angry flames as punishment. But, in fairness, this year has been pretty mild on the minutes discussion, despite a year that actually warrants minute discussions (9 players who will get playing time for sure pre-season ACC and maybe a surprise or two like Vrank / DeLaurier).

How long can one stroke ones self?

sagegrouse
10-20-2016, 12:12 PM
Thanks, Troublemaker. Pitt's schedule still stands out. Every other team in the league either plays 4 or 5 games against the "top tier," but Pitt plays 7.

Welcome to the ACC, Kevin Stallings!

Kindly,
Sage
'Actually, aren't the schedules determined years in advance?'

flyingdutchdevil
10-20-2016, 12:24 PM
How long can one stroke ones self?

For me to comment on this would be highly inappropriate and warrant plenty of angry flames. I can PM you the answer if you're still interested.

devildeac
10-20-2016, 01:23 PM
For me to comment on this would be highly inappropriate and warrant plenty of angry flames. I can PM you the answer if you're still interested.

Personally, I like the 60 and 90 Minute versions as the 120 Minute option is very, very hoppy, has an exceedingly high ABV and is best shared among best friends and/or family. Plus, it's also not available in NC. :o

JasonEvans
10-21-2016, 08:56 AM
ACC Schedule Matrix to "At a Glance" Compare Schedule Strengths

Here's a table that I hope some will find useful and also hopefully easy to understand.

I sincerely hope others have given you some ample spork love. I would, but I need to spread my love around a bit more first.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-21-2016, 08:56 AM
ACC players Amile Jefferson, Isiah Hicks, Bonzi Colson, Johnathon Issac, Tyler Lydon , Austin Nichols are on the Karl Malone PF Award watch list...

http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2016-10-20/college-basketball-2017-karl-malone-award-watch-list-released

Troublemaker
10-21-2016, 10:34 AM
I’m not a betting man, but I think Vegas odds makers often make the best preseason picks. They have to! If they’re wrong, they lose money.
To some extent, they must anticipate public betting behavior, but still, they tend to be better than lazy sports writers.
Here is what Vegas says this year. (The ACC -in red - is pretty well represented)
Odds to win NCAA tournament:
1. Duke 7/2
2. Kentucky 11/1
3. Kansas 12/1
4. No Carolina 16/1
5. Oregon 16/1
6. Wisconsin 18/1
7. Arizona 20/1
8. Syracuse 20/1
9. Mich State 22/1
10. Villanova 25/1
11. Virginia 25/1
12. Indiana 30/1
13. Louisville 35/1
14. UConn 50/1
15. Texas 50/1
16. Xavier 50/1
17. Gonzaga 50/1
18. Purdue 50/1
19. UCLA 60/1
20. Maryland 65/1

Louisville is undervalued there, imo. They're my pick (and Oly Fan's pick) to finish second to Duke in the ACC, which should get the Cardinals a 2-seed somewhere. I might just have to sprinkle some cash on that 35/1.

I believe Oly Fan was the first to pick Louisville to finish second in the ACC on this forum. Mad props to him if it comes true.

Troublemaker
10-21-2016, 10:51 AM
Thanks, Troublemaker. Pitt's schedule still stands out. Every other team in the league either plays 4 or 5 games against the "top tier," but Pitt plays 7.

I was discussing this with a buddy of mine who's a Pitt grad and more a basketball fan than football fan. He said those 7 games were 7 chances to make the NCAA tournament.

Let's say Pitt goes 2-5 in those 7 games, with home wins against UNC and Louisville, for example. As long as Pitt goes 7-4 against the rest of the conference to get back to 9-9, then they pretty much become a lock for the NCAAT. If you look at their schedule, they play 6 games at home against the mid-tier and only 2 on the road against the mid-tier. And they have 3 other games against the bottom-tier. The 7-4 is doable.

So, I would say this about Pitt's schedule. It's awful if the goal is to finish top 4, BUT it may be decent for making the NCAAT as long as Pitt comes through with a couple of upsets of the top teams.

BD80
10-21-2016, 11:09 AM
... despite a year that actually warrants minute discussions ...

NO year warrants a minute discussion. Not even a year in which the two worst presidential candidates in the history of elections are facing off for arguably the most powerful position on earth.

flyingdutchdevil
10-21-2016, 11:11 AM
NO year warrants a minute discussion. Not even a year in which the two worst presidential candidates in the history of elections are facing off for arguably the most powerful position on earth.

We have to agree to disagree then. Minutes are the only interesting about the off-season.

If we hate minutes so much, I recommend DBR shuts down from May to October. Now that I think about it, that's not such a bad thing...

BD80
10-21-2016, 11:20 AM
... Minutes are the only interesting about the off-season. ...

We used to have summer pick-up game reports in the good ol' days.

Gods were created in those discussions. The talk was of dynasties and Wooden awards, minutes were so meaningless back then.


Sigh. Simpler times.

El_Diablo
10-21-2016, 01:32 PM
UNC's Theo Pinson has fractured his foot and is out indefinitely.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc-junior-theo-pinson-out-indefinitely-after-fracturing-right-foot/16143351/

tbyers11
10-21-2016, 01:34 PM
On mobile so sorry for no link but Jeff Goodman just reported that Theo Pinson is out indefinitely with a broken foot.

UNC has a very good veteran top 6 (7 if you include Bradley) but a lot of untested players beyond that. Interesting to see how Kenny Williams steps up with Pinson out

SCMatt33
10-21-2016, 01:35 PM
UNC's Theo Pinson has fractured his foot and is out indefinitely.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc-junior-theo-pinson-out-indefinitely-after-fracturing-right-foot/16143351/

That stinks for him. It's his fifth metatarsal as well, which is notoriously slow to heal because of low blood flow to that area.

JasonEvans
10-21-2016, 01:36 PM
UNC's Theo Pinson has fractured his foot and is out indefinitely.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc-junior-theo-pinson-out-indefinitely-after-fracturing-right-foot/16143351/

Well, we Duke fans know just a little bit about the uncertainty of an indefinite timetable (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14398929/amile-jefferson-duke-blue-devils-suffering-foot-fracture-least-month) when it comes to foot injuries (http://www.espn.com/ncb/news/story?id=5900154).

flyingdutchdevil
10-21-2016, 01:37 PM
That stinks for him. It's his fifth metatarsal as well, which is notoriously slow to heal because of low blood flow to that area.

It's okay, because they have Pre-Season ACC Player of the Year Nate Britt to take his place.

El_Diablo
10-21-2016, 01:38 PM
Well, we Duke fans know just a little bit about the uncertainty of an indefinite timetable (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14398929/amile-jefferson-duke-blue-devils-suffering-foot-fracture-least-month) when it comes to foot injuries (http://www.espn.com/ncb/news/story?id=5900154).

So does Pinson. Same thing happened to his left foot two seasons ago: http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/unc-freshman-wing-theo-pinson-breaks-bone-in-foot-out-indefinitely/. He missed about six weeks afterwards and was a non-factor when he came back before missing some more time due to soreness.

newclasspack
10-21-2016, 05:07 PM
So does Pinson. Same thing happened to his left foot two seasons ago: http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/unc-freshman-wing-theo-pinson-breaks-bone-in-foot-out-indefinitely/. He missed about six weeks afterwards and was a non-factor when he came back before missing some more time due to soreness.And that was teh second time.. He broke that same bone in his left foot in HS.

MChambers
10-21-2016, 06:03 PM
Tough break. Hope he recovers quickly and fully.

jipops
10-21-2016, 06:15 PM
Huge bummer for Pinson. I genuinely feel bad for the kid, or any kid who has invested so much time and energy only to hit this bump in the road. Same for his team mates who work so hard to achieve cohesion only to see that made more difficult. Of course I can't say the same for the cheating, exploitive program and fan base as a whole that now frets over this.

Indoor66
10-21-2016, 06:27 PM
I hate to see any player get hurt. I wish the best for him.

OldPhiKap
10-21-2016, 06:41 PM
Personally, I like the 60 and 90 Minute versions as the 120 Minute option is very, very hoppy, has an exceedingly high ABV and is best shared among best friends and/or family. Plus, it's also not available in NC. :o

Had some 120 in Vegas. Still feeling it.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-21-2016, 06:42 PM
Welcome to the ups and downs of college basketball.

It sucks for Pinson, he's been working really hard and is a team leader. His defense, passing and overall versatility will be missed until he gets back, which most reports I see seem to think early January at the earliest.

My understanding is the bone he broke was not the same foot that he broke twice, once in HS and once freshman year. It was the other one, so there is some optimism it will heal relatively quickly for that injury.

Roy may very well bring in Britt to start alongside of Berry and you guys will see why I've been saying all along a kid like Britt is so valuable to have.

But, I won't be surprised if the starting spot goes to Kenny Williams. Roy likes to develope kids early season and he likes some size at 2g. Williams is a really good defender and has a smooth, controlled all around game. He struggled shooting last season off the bench, but he has a good looking stroke. He never seemed to get in the offensive groove I think he is capable of in limited minutes. Starting might be just what he needs. If he has developed his confidence after a typical freshman learning curve first season, which reports say he has, I think he can be productive at the ACC level in the 2g spot this season.

Freshman Brandon Robinson is another kid to watch. He doesn't look physically ready yet for extended play to me, he's rail thin, but reports are he's been practicing well. (I have not seen him).

Seventh Woods is still nursing his own injuries and has been limited so far. Not sure what to expect from him this season.

At any rate, Roy has built a solid roster to deal with issues like this without the wheels falling off and I'm still confident in the team we have available.

OldPhiKap
10-21-2016, 06:44 PM
UNC's Theo Pinson has fractured his foot and is out indefinitely.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc-junior-theo-pinson-out-indefinitely-after-fracturing-right-foot/16143351/

Hoping for a full recovery, hate to hear this about any player.

duke4ever19
10-21-2016, 07:20 PM
Tough break. Hope he recovers quickly and fully.

You can say that again.

BD80
10-21-2016, 08:00 PM
UNC's Theo Pinson has fractured his foot and is out indefinitely.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc-junior-theo-pinson-out-indefinitely-after-fracturing-right-foot/16143351/

The tar heel fans want to hold a vigil, but they can't figure out what a Roman poet has to do with a foot injury.

Nugget
10-21-2016, 08:20 PM
Welcome to the ups and downs of college basketball.

It sucks for Pinson, he's been working really hard and is a team leader. His defense, passing and overall versatility will be missed until he gets back, which most reports I see seem to think early January at the earliest.

My understanding is the bone he broke was not the same foot that he broke twice, once in HS and once freshman year. It was the other one, so there is some optimism it will heal relatively quickly for that injury.

Roy may very well bring in Britt to start alongside of Berry and you guys will see why I've been saying all along a kid like Britt is so valuable to have.

But, I won't be surprised if the starting spot goes to Kenny Williams. Roy likes to develope kids early season and he likes some size at 2g. Williams is a really good defender and has a smooth, controlled all around game. He struggled shooting last season off the bench, but he has a good looking stroke. He never seemed to get in the offensive groove I think he is capable of in limited minutes. Starting might be just what he needs. If he has developed his confidence after a typical freshman learning curve first season, which reports say he has, I think he can be productive at the ACC level in the 2g spot this season.

Freshman Brandon Robinson is another kid to watch. He doesn't look physically ready yet for extended play to me, he's rail thin, but reports are he's been practicing well. (I have not seen him).

Seventh Woods is still nursing his own injuries and has been limited so far. Not sure what to expect from him this season.

At any rate, Roy has built a solid roster to deal with issues like this without the wheels falling off and I'm still confident in the team we have available.


According to the news story the fracture was of the same one that Elton Brand broke in 98 and Carlos Boozer broke before his freshman year in 99 -- both were out about 8-10 weeks.

So, unless this is a worse injury, Wheat's report on the time-table look correct.

The news story played Roy's quote more like he might not be back at all this year, which seems unduly pessimistic. Given the timing, Theo ought to be available for basically the entire conference season.

duke4ever19
10-21-2016, 08:45 PM
The following video explains the rules changes/tweaking/emphasis for the 2016-17 season.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4hkblhCl-U

gep
10-22-2016, 01:07 AM
Wow... good luck officiating all of these minute nuances... especially rebounding and traveling. And, hopefully they really enforce the "outside the coaching box is 1 shot". I remember one coach... Jaime DIxon?... who was essentially on the court throughout the game. I hope they enforce this...

Troublemaker
10-22-2016, 09:37 AM
Kenpom will probably unveil his 2017 Preseason Rankings in the next week, maybe even this weekend. I've been anticipating this so hard, I've somehow synced up with his brain. I think his preseason rankings of the ACC teams will look like this:




Rank
Off. Rank
Def. Rank


Duke
1
1
19


UNC
5
3
13


UVA
7
16
1


Lville
9
22
2


Cuse
12
31
5


Miami
19
17
32


Clemson
21
28
27


NCSU
32
24
48


VaTech
39
21
62


FSU
40
35
41


Pitt
48
27
73


ND
50
19
85


Wake
76
68
98


GaTech
105
143
82


BC
170
237
121

devildeac
10-22-2016, 01:48 PM
Kenpom will probably unveil his 2017 Preseason Rankings in the next week, maybe even this weekend. I've been anticipating this so hard, I've somehow synced up with his brain. I think his preseason rankings of the ACC teams will look like this:




Rank
Off. Rank
Def. Rank


Duke
1
1
19


UNC
5
3
13


UVA
7
16
1


Lville
9
22
2


Cuse
12
31
5


Miami
19
17
32


Clemson
21
28
27


NCSU
32
24
48


VaTech
39
21
62


FSU
40
35
41


Pitt
48
27
73


ND
50
19
85


Wake
76
68
98


GaTech
105
143
82


BC
170
237
121



Perhaps L'ville won't be so highly rated defensively if the stripes decide to enforce the hand-mauling, err, checking rules in the proper fashion this year :mad: .

slower
10-22-2016, 01:54 PM
The tar heel fans want to hold a vigil, but they can't figure out what a Roman poet has to do with a foot injury.

It's FAR more likely they would know who John Virgil is, rather than a Roman poet.

fuse
10-23-2016, 08:07 PM
http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2016/10/22/video-dennis-smith-jr-electrifies-n-c-state-fans-at-teams-scrimmage/

Dennis Smith looks pretty good.
While impressive, not sure what an alley oop to yourself does for team chemistry.

Looking forward to seeing how our defense reacts.

DarkstarWahoo
10-24-2016, 01:49 PM
Hey Devils! Hope y'all have had an enjoyable offseason and have had ample opportunity to watch the Kris Jenkins shot, with bench reactions, over and over again. I know I've enjoyed it a good bit myself.

Wanted to offer a quick scouting report on UVA after the scrimmage the other day. Some highlights:

Perrantes: Unquestionably his team. He's basically an extension of Tony out there. Handle, stroke and anticipation look extremely strong. If he plays to his ceiling, he'll be an All-American of some variety.

Austin Nichols: As advertised, although probably not an all-ACC player at this point. He's a grown man - very solid, very big, mature. Consistent shot out to about 15 feet. Slower than Anthony Gill, but much more physical.

Marial Shayok: Appears to have lost some weight. Very sure of himself, looking for his shot a lot more. The offense runs better with him in there. Ready for major minutes and will get them. My pick for #3 in the pecking order.

Darius Thompson: Much improved, particularly on offense. Good stroke, springy dunks, looks good enough running the offense to give Perrantes some rest. By all accounts, his was the rotation spot in greatest jeopardy entering the fall, and he's responded well and solidified his hold on it.

Kyle Guy: Incredibly quick release and not as tiny as expected. He's still a twig, but physically ready to play in the ACC. Scorer's mindset. He'll get a lot of run.

Mamadi Diakite: Bouncy, incredible leaper with shotmaking skills. Probably the program's best interior athlete since Sampson, but his head's not there yet. He could block five shots in a half or get five fouls. He'll play a ton if he can stay focused.

Jay Huff: Strong shooter with deep range and good interior quickness. Still thin, but not to the point where he'll be overmatched all the time. There was talk that he could redshirt, but he'll probably wind up with a rotation spot.

Top to bottom, this might be Bennett's most talented team. Lots of interchangeable parts. As good a shot at #2 in the ACC as anyone, and still at the point where anything short of the Sweet 16 would be a disappointment.

My best guess at the rotation:

Starters: Perrantes, Shayok, Hall, Wilkins, Nichols
Backcourt rotation: Thompson, Guy
Frontcourt rotation: Diakite, Huff

OldPhiKap
10-24-2016, 01:54 PM
Hey Devils! Hope y'all have had an enjoyable offseason and have had ample opportunity to watch the Kris Jenkins shot, with bench reactions, over and over again. I know I've enjoyed it a good bit myself.

Wanted to offer a quick scouting report on UVA after the scrimmage the other day. Some highlights:

Perrantes: Unquestionably his team. He's basically an extension of Tony out there. Handle, stroke and anticipation look extremely strong. If he plays to his ceiling, he'll be an All-American of some variety.

Austin Nichols: As advertised, although probably not an all-ACC player at this point. He's a grown man - very solid, very big, mature. Consistent shot out to about 15 feet. Slower than Anthony Gill, but much more physical.

Marial Shayok: Appears to have lost some weight. Very sure of himself, looking for his shot a lot more. The offense runs better with him in there. Ready for major minutes and will get them. My pick for #3 in the pecking order.

Darius Thompson: Much improved, particularly on offense. Good stroke, springy dunks, looks good enough running the offense to give Perrantes some rest. By all accounts, his was the rotation spot in greatest jeopardy entering the fall, and he's responded well and solidified his hold on it.

Kyle Guy: Incredibly quick release and not as tiny as expected. He's still a twig, but physically ready to play in the ACC. Scorer's mindset. He'll get a lot of run.

Mamadi Diakite: Bouncy, incredible leaper with shotmaking skills. Probably the program's best interior athlete since Sampson, but his head's not there yet. He could block five shots in a half or get five fouls. He'll play a ton if he can stay focused.

Jay Huff: Strong shooter with deep range and good interior quickness. Still thin, but not to the point where he'll be overmatched all the time. There was talk that he could redshirt, but he'll probably wind up with a rotation spot.

Top to bottom, this might be Bennett's most talented team. Lots of interchangeable parts. As good a shot at #2 in the ACC as anyone, and still at the point where anything short of the Sweet 16 would be a disappointment.

My best guess at the rotation:

Starters: Perrantes, Shayok, Hall, Wilkins, Nichols
Backcourt rotation: Thompson, Guy
Frontcourt rotation: Diakite, Huff

Great input, thanks! Will likely have some questions after I digest, but wanted to give you some quick props.

Olympic Fan
10-24-2016, 02:06 PM
Hey Devils! Hope y'all have had an enjoyable offseason and have had ample opportunity to watch the Kris Jenkins shot, with bench reactions, over and over again. I know I've enjoyed it a good bit myself.

Wanted to offer a quick scouting report on UVA after the scrimmage the other day. Some highlights:

Perrantes: Unquestionably his team. He's basically an extension of Tony out there. Handle, stroke and anticipation look extremely strong. If he plays to his ceiling, he'll be an All-American of some variety.

Austin Nichols: As advertised, although probably not an all-ACC player at this point. He's a grown man - very solid, very big, mature. Consistent shot out to about 15 feet. Slower than Anthony Gill, but much more physical.

Marial Shayok: Appears to have lost some weight. Very sure of himself, looking for his shot a lot more. The offense runs better with him in there. Ready for major minutes and will get them. My pick for #3 in the pecking order.

Darius Thompson: Much improved, particularly on offense. Good stroke, springy dunks, looks good enough running the offense to give Perrantes some rest. By all accounts, his was the rotation spot in greatest jeopardy entering the fall, and he's responded well and solidified his hold on it.

Kyle Guy: Incredibly quick release and not as tiny as expected. He's still a twig, but physically ready to play in the ACC. Scorer's mindset. He'll get a lot of run.

Mamadi Diakite: Bouncy, incredible leaper with shotmaking skills. Probably the program's best interior athlete since Sampson, but his head's not there yet. He could block five shots in a half or get five fouls. He'll play a ton if he can stay focused.

Jay Huff: Strong shooter with deep range and good interior quickness. Still thin, but not to the point where he'll be overmatched all the time. There was talk that he could redshirt, but he'll probably wind up with a rotation spot.

Top to bottom, this might be Bennett's most talented team. Lots of interchangeable parts. As good a shot at #2 in the ACC as anyone, and still at the point where anything short of the Sweet 16 would be a disappointment.

My best guess at the rotation:

Starters: Perrantes, Shayok, Hall, Wilkins, Nichols
Backcourt rotation: Thompson, Guy
Frontcourt rotation: Diakite, Huff


Virginia is a top 10 team -- and a top three ACC team -- if and only if the defense remains at the same high level it's been at for the last three years.

I have no reason to think it won't be. They lost two very good defenders (especially Brogdon, the best defender in the ACC for the last two years), but Shayok and Wilkins are very good. I'll be interested to see how Nichols defends down low -- he was more of an offensive guy at Memphis, although he could block a shot or two. I suspect Diakite will emerge as a better post defender.

Pghdukie
10-24-2016, 06:29 PM
How many schools has Austin Nichols attended ? Seems he has been around for eternity! IIRC Duke had a look see with him but didn't persue. Just seems he plays a year, transfers then shows up again. I could be wrong

jimsumner
10-24-2016, 06:38 PM
How many schools has Austin Nichols attended ? Seems he has been around for eternity! IIRC Duke had a look see with him but didn't persue. Just seems he plays a year, transfers then shows up again. I could be wrong

Duke very much wanted Nichols out of high school. He played two seasons at Memphis before announcing that he wanted to transfer. Duke was high on his initial transfer list but the interest was not reciprocated the second time around. One usually doesn't get a chance to spurn Mike Krzyzewski twice.

Had Nichols transferred to Duke, it is unlikely that Bolden would have joined him in Durham.

So, methinks Duke is okay with the way things turned out.

But UVA is only his second college.

Troublemaker
10-26-2016, 04:50 PM
ACC Preseason Voting (http://www.theacc.com/news/2016-17-acc-basketball-preseason-voting-10-26-2016)

Duke #1. Grayson Allen POY (and 1st team). Dennis Smith ROY.

Jayson Tatum was voted onto the 2nd team.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvuHf6tWAAACPsR.jpg

JasonEvans
10-27-2016, 12:00 AM
To expand on some of the media voting...



Standings:
1. Duke (85) - 1359
2. North Carolina (6) - 1239
3. Virginia - 1125
4. Louisville - 1034
5. Syracuse - 905
6. NC State - 772
7. Notre Dame - 716
8. Florida State - 705
9. Miami - 650
10. Virginia Tech - 645
11. Clemson - 623
12. Pitt - 511
13. Wake Forest - 309
14. Georgia Tech - 199
15. Boston College – 128

I would have probably put Notre Dame behind FSU and perhaps Clemson or Va Tech too. I think Miami is a bit overrated and could easily be 11th or 12th. Aside from those teams in 9th - 11th place, there is a fairly decent game in most of the other rankings, perhaps indicating a good bit of consensus among the media for who belongs in which spot.



All-ACC First Team
Grayson Allen, Duke (87)
Jaron Blossomgame, Clemson (70)
Joel Berry II, North Carolina (45)
London Perrantes, Virginia (36)
Dennis Smith, Jr., NC State (34)

All-ACC Second Team
Justin Jackson, North Carolina (22)
Jayson Tatum, Duke (21)
Tyler Lydon, Syracuse (20)
Dwayne Bacon, Florida State (16)
Michael Young, Pitt (14)

Not a lot to quibble with here, though I sorta wonder if there is someone from Louisville that maybe merited consideration. I guess the book on the Cardinals is that they are going to have a bunch of really good players but no great ones. Ok, I can buy that. Who is the biggest snub here? Is Justin Jackson really the 6th best player in the ACC? I'd certainly go with Dwayne Bacon ahead of him. Lastly, I know there is no way 3 Dukies make the top 2 teams with 14 other teams in the league, but I will merely say that the only way Amile Jefferson does not average a double-double is if we win so many games by such a large margin that he gets to spend a lot of time resting in the 2nd half of non-competitive contests.



ACC Preseason Player of the Year
Grayson Allen, Duke (70)
Jaron Blossomgame, Clemson (7)
London Perrantes, Virginia (5)
Joel Berry II, North Carolina (5)
Dennis Smith, Jr., NC State (2)
Andrew White, Syracuse (1)
Davon Reed, Miami (1)

Wow, Grayson runs away with it. I am a bit surprised there are no votes at all for Tatum. He looked like he might be Duke's best player in the scrimmage. Ummm, whoever voted for Davon Reed should have their voting rights rescinded. That's absurd.



ACC Preseason Rookie of the Year
Dennis Smith, Jr., NC State (51)
Jayson Tatum, Duke (20)
Harry Giles, Duke (10)
Tyus Battle, Syracuse (5)
VJ King, Louisville (2)
Jonathan Isaac, Florida State (2)
Josh Okogie, Georgia Tech (1)

Not a single vote for Tony Bradley? Meanwhile, I think the voters are vastly underestimating the #1 player in the class, Harry Giles. Yeah, he's hurt right now, but he's likely to start playing by December and it is not at all unlikely that he is freaking dominant when he does start to play. That said, Smith is the smart pick here because State will need to lean on him in a big big way, muuuuch more than Duke will need from Tatum and Giles.

-Jason "by the way, unless Duke goes undefeated, no way K wins Coach of the Year becauase matching preseason expectations is not how you win the award... but only picking up a couple losses in the ACC this year will be a herculean feat of great coaching (recruiting, development, and game plan execution)" Evans

Kedsy
10-27-2016, 12:40 AM
Lastly, I know there is no way 3 Dukies make the top 2 teams with 14 other teams in the league...

I don't see why not. In a 12 team ACC in 2012, four UNC players made the top 2 teams, so I don't see why three is impossible in a 15 team ACC. Also (still 12 teams), three UNC players made the top two teams in 2011 and three Duke players made the top two teams in 2010, so it wasn't so unlikely in a 12 team league. If Duke runs away from the rest of the league (not a lock but certainly a possibility), and three Duke players deserve to be in the top 10 players in the league, I think it could happen.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-27-2016, 01:44 AM
Voters are sleeping on Isaiah Hicks. I'll be surprised if he's not on one of those teams.

UNC has the posibility of placing 3 on the all acc teams too.

JasonEvans
10-27-2016, 01:56 AM
Voters are sleeping on Isaiah Hicks. I'll be surprised if he's not on one of those teams.

UNC has the posibility of placing 3 on the all acc teams too.

I know his minutes are likely to jump this year with Johnson's departure, but picking a guy who has never averaged even 9 ppg in his career for the 1st or 2nd team would be even more silly than the POY vote for Reed of Miami.

There are a lot of teams who have 3 good players who could all make a leap and make All-ACC if their team runs away with the conference title. But, the team that appears most likely (overwhelmingly so) to post that kind of impressive, juggernaut-like record, is Duke. It would be sorta silly for UNC to place 3 players among the 10 best in the conference unless you think Carolina is a mortal lock to win the ACC title.

If you will be surprised if Hicks is not first or second team All-ACC, would you care to make some kind of wager about it? I believe we once bet Peach Pie versus Key Lime pie on the success (and subsequent failure) of Brian Bersticker...

-Jason "mmm, that pie was delicious, even if you dyed it Carolina blue" Evans

flyingdutchdevil
10-27-2016, 09:21 AM
Voters are sleeping on Isaiah Hicks. I'll be surprised if he's not on one of those teams.

UNC has the posibility of placing 3 on the all acc teams too.

Berry, Hicks, and Pre-Season-ACC-Player-of-the-Year-Nate-Britt?

I agree on Berry. Love his game.

Ichabod Drain
10-27-2016, 09:33 AM
Voters are sleeping on Isaiah Hicks. I'll be surprised if he's not on one of those teams.

UNC has the posibility of placing 3 on the all acc teams too.

Hicks' fouls committed per 40 during his first three years : 5.6 , 6.8, and 6.7

Hicks can be really good but he hasn't shown the ability to not foul yet.

Wheat/"/"/"
10-27-2016, 09:52 AM
I know his minutes are likely to jump this year with Johnson's departure, but picking a guy who has never averaged even 9 ppg in his career for the 1st or 2nd team would be even more silly than the POY vote for Reed of Miami.

There are a lot of teams who have 3 good players who could all make a leap and make All-ACC if their team runs away with the conference title. But, the team that appears most likely (overwhelmingly so) to post that kind of impressive, juggernaut-like record, is Duke. It would be sorta silly for UNC to place 3 players among the 10 best in the conference unless you think Carolina is a mortal lock to win the ACC title.

If you will be surprised if Hicks is not first or second team All-ACC, would you care to make some kind of wager about it? I believe we once bet Peach Pie versus Key Lime pie on the success (and subsequent failure) of Brian Bersticker...

-Jason "mmm, that pie was delicious, even if you dyed it Carolina blue" Evans

Sure, we're both gamblers.🤑
That pie probably cost me $100 bucks in 1998 dollars to ship in that dry ice and was a pain to pack, and a pain to bake it, and a pain to get someone to understand why I wanted to add the dye to it...

Never again with the pie thing.

So let's do $100 bucks to the charity of each other's choice? No worries if you want to make it lighter. 👍
It's a big league with lots of good players and only ten spots. I think Hicks is one of the ten best players in the league, so let's do this.

Voting Hicks on a team makes way more sense to me after watching him for three years, even as a reserve behind Brice Johnson, than adding a freshman that I guarantee you 3/4 of the voters have never even seen play and are relying on what they read somewhere. Hicks has NBA talent.

Smith and Tatum may very well be that good to make a all acc team, and both will be featured players on their teams which will help them for sure, while Hicks plays within a more structured offense and won't stand out as much. And with Jackson and Berry also pushing for a spot from UNC, Hicks will have to really stand out to get there. With so many good players around the league, voters are not going to want to place 3 from any one team on all acc...so there's that too.

I'm holding pocket Jacks and you're tabling AK...I think I'm a slight favorite, but it's a race.

Anyways, I see Hicks as the most athletic and powerful big man in the league and due to break out. He came in "young" and has been a slow maturing player, but nobody has questioned his tools.

As a starter this year, I'm gambling he's going to show out and we'll all be hearing how Roy hid another NBA guy on the bench again🙂

Wheat/"/"/"
10-27-2016, 10:02 AM
Hicks' fouls committed per 40 during his first three years : 5.6 , 6.8, and 6.7

Hicks can be really good but he hasn't shown the ability to not foul yet.

He definitely has to make better decisions on the floor.

newclasspack
10-27-2016, 04:00 PM
I don't believe in Justin Jackson

brevity
10-27-2016, 06:15 PM
I don't believe in Justin Jackson

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure he exists.

OldPhiKap
10-27-2016, 06:51 PM
I don't believe in Justin Jackson

The more important question is -- does he believe in you?

flyingdutchdevil
10-28-2016, 08:32 AM
The more important question is -- does he believe in you?

Moreso than he believes in studying?

Troublemaker
10-28-2016, 11:50 AM
To expand on some of the media voting...

Standings:
1. Duke (85) - 1359
2. North Carolina (6) - 1239
3. Virginia - 1125
4. Louisville - 1034
5. Syracuse - 905
6. NC State - 772
7. Notre Dame - 716
8. Florida State - 705
9. Miami - 650
10. Virginia Tech - 645
11. Clemson - 623
12. Pitt - 511
13. Wake Forest - 309
14. Georgia Tech - 199
15. Boston College – 128


I would have probably put Notre Dame behind FSU and perhaps Clemson or Va Tech too. I think Miami is a bit overrated and could easily be 11th or 12th. Aside from those teams in 9th - 11th place, there is a fairly decent game in most of the other rankings, perhaps indicating a good bit of consensus among the media for who belongs in which spot.

Yeah, I'm surprised by how much respect is shown to Notre Dame there. The loss of Demetrius Jackson and Zach Auguste will be huge. I think the Irish will be more bubbly, so more in the 10th-11th range.

Wake is the only team in the bottom 3 capable of surprising, I think. They have good big men and a good point guard and playmaker in Bryant Crawford. Being capable at those positions is a really good start to having a good team. I'm wondering if Wake can finish 10th and sneak into the NCAAT this season in Danny Manning's 3rd year.

DukieInBrasil
10-28-2016, 04:08 PM
Yeah, I'm surprised by how much respect is shown to Notre Dame there. The loss of Demetrius Jackson and Zach Auguste will be huge. I think the Irish will be more bubbly, so more in the 10th-11th range.

Wake is the only team in the bottom 3 capable of surprising, I think. They have good big men and a good point guard and playmaker in Bryant Crawford. Being capable at those positions is a really good start to having a good team. I'm wondering if Wake can finish 10th and sneak into the NCAAT this season in Danny Manning's 3rd year.

Coaching counts for a lot, ask Duke fans. Brey is a good coach and he'll get his team to play well. I don't know what that means in terms of how they'll finish in the ACC. As Wheat loves to tell us, guys who were biding their time behind starters, suddenly become starters and show us what we didn't know they were really capable of. All i'm saying is that some of the guys who didn't start last year due to Auguste and Jackson may in fact be capable of surprising us.
I'm still bullish on Duke finishing #1 in the conference, but remain unconvinced that UNC will fulfill my hopes and finish last.

Ichabod Drain
10-31-2016, 01:34 PM
Omer Yurtseven will miss the first nine games and has to pay $1,000 but will be clear after that. State is going to have a talented roster this year.

I find it funny the NCAA is making this kid pay them money for making money himself.

PackMan97
10-31-2016, 01:52 PM
Omer Yurtseven will miss the first nine games and has to pay $1,000 but will be clear after that. State is going to have a talented roster this year.

I find it funny the NCAA is making this kid pay them money for making money himself.

...to a charity of his choice.

Ichabod Drain
10-31-2016, 01:57 PM
...to a charity of his choice.

Yea just read that. Goodman did not include that in his statement.

newclasspack
10-31-2016, 02:01 PM
Yea just read that. Goodman did not include that in his statement.Not surprised Goodman hates us soooo

BD80
10-31-2016, 02:02 PM
Omer Yurtseven will miss the first nine games and has to pay $1,000 but will be clear after that. State is going to have a talented roster this year.

I find it funny the NCAA is making this kid pay them money for making money himself.


...to a charity of his choice.

I hear there is an educational crisis involving varsity basketball players in chapel hill. Maybe he could contribute to help them attend real classes

PackMan97
10-31-2016, 02:09 PM
I hear there is an educational crisis involving varsity basketball players in chapel hill. Maybe he could contribute to help them attend real classes

$1,000 isn't going to make much of a dent in the tuition cost to Duke. :)

BD80
10-31-2016, 02:14 PM
$1,000 isn't going to make much of a dent in the tuition cost to Duke. :)

Like any self-respecting institution of higher learning would accept such "students" who were willing to accept college credit for phony classes!

Isn't there a trade school in chapel hill where the players might receive some useful education?

flyingdutchdevil
10-31-2016, 02:28 PM
Like any self-respecting institution of higher learning would accept such "students" who were willing to accept college credit for phony classes!

Isn't there a trade school in chapel hill where the players might receive some useful education?

Not a trade school, but UNCers could go here: https://k12.niche.com/seawell-elementary-school-chapel-hill-nc/

It's ranked as the top school in NC. Well, elementary school in NC.

Olympic Fan
10-31-2016, 02:47 PM
Omer Yurtseven will miss the first nine games and has to pay $1,000 but will be clear after that. State is going to have a talented roster this year.

I find it funny the NCAA is making this kid pay them money for making money himself.

A very positive resolution for the Pack.

He'll be eligible for the Dec. 15 game vs. App State. He'll get four non-conference games (all gimmies) before the Pack opens the ACC Dec. 31 at Miami.

Of the nine games he'll miss, six are gimmies ... State plays at Illinois in the ACC/Big Ten Challenge and they should be able to beat a depleted Illinois team even without Yurtseven.

The last two games of the Paradise Jam are tougher -- with Washington State or Creighton in the semifinals; either Ole Miss, Oral Roberts, St. Joe's or Loyola (Chicago in the finals)

Interesting that State could face Loyola on Nov. 21 in the Paradise finals ... then will definitely play Loyola Nov. 26 in Raleigh.

Not the greatest schedule -- I wouldn't be shocked if State is 13-0 entering ACC play (although 12-1 or 11-1 is more likely).

BLPOG
10-31-2016, 02:58 PM
Not a trade school, but UNCers could go here: https://k12.niche.com/seawell-elementary-school-chapel-hill-nc/

It's ranked as the top school in NC. Well, elementary school in NC.

Hmm...some of the football players might have trouble even there. If you recall Powell's radio comments, some of them (albeit intentionally) had trouble putting blocks together.

Troublemaker
11-05-2016, 12:35 PM
I was looking through exhibition results for the ACC teams so far (keeping in mind that not everyone plays exhibitions and others aren't finished with them yet). There are no surprising losses, and the only result that should cause concern so far is Miami 73, Barry 62 (http://www.hurricanesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=211270027&DB_OEM_ID=28700), which was also mentioned in one of the ACC Roundups on the DBR front page. (BC also played a close game with Stonehill, but we all know BC will stink.)

Looking at the Miami-Barry box score (pdf) (http://www.hurricanesports.com/pdf9/5057409.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=28700), it really matches up well with the preseason helicopter-view of Miami. Which is, will Ja'Quan Newton and Davon Reed have enough support to get back to the NCAA tournament now that Angel Rodriguez, Sheldon McClellan, Tonye Jekiri, and Ivan Uceda have all graduated? Against Barry, it didn't look like it.

Miami is a team that the KenPom and SI computers have projected to be #24 and #33 in the country, respectively, and ACC voters picked them 9th in the conference preseason, a placement which would probably get them an NCAA bid.

I'm going to go ahead and predict that they'll disappoint relative to those expectations. I think Miami will finish 12th or 13th in the ACC and miss the tournament. Wake Forest will be a better team.

Any predictions for Disappointments or Surprise Teams?

DukieInBrasil
11-05-2016, 12:48 PM
I was looking through exhibition results for the ACC teams so far (keeping in mind that not everyone plays exhibitions and others aren't finished with them yet). There are no surprising losses, and the only result that should cause concern so far is Miami 73, Barry 62 (http://www.hurricanesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=211270027&DB_OEM_ID=28700), which was also mentioned in one of the ACC Roundups on the DBR front page. (BC also played a close game with Stonehill, but we all know BC will stink.)

Looking at the Miami-Barry box score (pdf) (http://www.hurricanesports.com/pdf9/5057409.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=28700), it really matches up well with the preseason helicopter-view of Miami. Which is, will Ja'Quan Newton and Davon Reed have enough support to get back to the NCAA tournament now that Angel Rodriguez, Sheldon McClellan, Tonye Jekiri, and Ivan Uceda have all graduated? Against Barry, it didn't look like it.

Miami is a team that the KenPom and SI computers have projected to be #24 and #33 in the country, respectively, and ACC voters picked them 9th in the conference preseason, a placement which would probably get them an NCAA bid.

I'm going to go ahead and predict that they'll disappoint relative to those expectations. I think Miami will finish 12th or 13th in the ACC and miss the tournament. Wake Forest will be a better team.

Any predictions for Disappointments or Surprise Teams?


Larranaga is a good coach, and unsurprisingly, his team has not learned all he has to teach them yet. He has done much better than 9th in the ACC with less obviously good talent before, so i wouldn't be surprised by a 9th or higher finish.

JNort
11-05-2016, 07:30 PM
I was looking through exhibition results for the ACC teams so far (keeping in mind that not everyone plays exhibitions and others aren't finished with them yet). There are no surprising losses, and the only result that should cause concern so far is Miami 73, Barry 62 (http://www.hurricanesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=211270027&DB_OEM_ID=28700), which was also mentioned in one of the ACC Roundups on the DBR front page. (BC also played a close game with Stonehill, but we all know BC will stink.)

Looking at the Miami-Barry box score (pdf) (http://www.hurricanesports.com/pdf9/5057409.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=28700), it really matches up well with the preseason helicopter-view of Miami. Which is, will Ja'Quan Newton and Davon Reed have enough support to get back to the NCAA tournament now that Angel Rodriguez, Sheldon McClellan, Tonye Jekiri, and Ivan Uceda have all graduated? Against Barry, it didn't look like it.

Miami is a team that the KenPom and SI computers have projected to be #24 and #33 in the country, respectively, and ACC voters picked them 9th in the conference preseason, a placement which would probably get them an NCAA bid.

I'm going to go ahead and predict that they'll disappoint relative to those expectations. I think Miami will finish 12th or 13th in the ACC and miss the tournament. Wake Forest will be a better team.

Any predictions for Disappointments or Surprise Teams?
Not sure what counts as surprise but I think NC State finishes top 4 for sure and possibly top 3.... in the ACC that is.

mgtr
11-05-2016, 08:43 PM
I watched a fair amount of the Miami-Barry game, and it was closer than the final score indicated. Of course it is still early days, but I would guess that Miami won't be so good this year. As noted, however, they have an excellent coach.

Troublemaker
11-05-2016, 09:48 PM
Larranaga is a good coach, and unsurprisingly, his team has not learned all he has to teach them yet. He has done much better than 9th in the ACC with less obviously good talent before, so i wouldn't be surprised by a 9th or higher finish.

I certainly agree that Larranaga is a very good coach. It's just that the ACC is loaded this season and probably has 13 teams that are capable of being in the NCAAT but unfortunately not all of them will make it, and somebody has to finish 12th and 13th and out of the tournament. I'm just going out on a (small) limb and predicting that Miami will be one of those teams.

Larranaga's 5 years in the ACC thus far have been interesting. In those five years, he's had two major contenders (2013 ACC Champs and last season's 2nd-place team [tied with UVA]), but he's missed the tournament in the other three seasons. He hasn't really had an in-between team that makes the tournament as a 9 seed or something.

Olympic Fan
11-06-2016, 12:46 AM
I certainly agree that Larranaga is a very good coach. It's just that the ACC is loaded this season and probably has 13 teams that are capable of being in the NCAAT but unfortunately not all of them will make it, and somebody has to finish 12th and 13th and out of the tournament. I'm just going out on a (small) limb and predicting that Miami will be one of those teams.

Larranaga's 5 years in the ACC thus far have been interesting. In those five years, he's had two major contenders (2013 ACC Champs and last season's 2nd-place team [tied with UVA]), but he's missed the tournament in the other three seasons. He hasn't really had an in-between team that makes the tournament as a 9 seed or something.

So, you're saying that Miami is essentially the Boston Red Sox of the ACC?

I think a lot of Miami's hopes depend on 6-11 freshman Dewan Huell and 6-5 freshman Bruce Brown. Both are high four-star prospects. If both are good, that gives Larranaga some firepower to support Newton and Reed. They'll also have Murphy as a solid defender/rebounder (both not much of a scorer).

I could see them finishing near the middle of the ACC pack (6-9) ... or struggling and battling Wake for 12th place.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2016, 09:45 AM
UNC's Tony Bradley.
I got my first look at him in the UNCP exhibition and he looked ready to make an ACC impact right away. (It's on watchespn replay).
He was confident, active and stayed under control. And he's really big with long arms. He was also more athletic than I was led to believe from all the recruiting write ups I had read about him, and I would say reports about his running the floor at the Tyler Zeller level are right on tune. He's fast for 6'11, 240lbs. He's perfect for Roy's style of play.
He very well may test the NBA waters after this season. He has that size and skill level.

We'll need to see how he handles the mental challenges of his first season of college ball.

Troublemaker
11-06-2016, 10:12 AM
UNC's Tony Bradley.
I got my first look at him in the UNCP exhibition and he looked ready to make an ACC impact right away. (It's on watchespn replay).
He was confident, active and stayed under control. And he's really big with long arms. He was also more athletic than I was led to believe from all the recruiting write ups I had read about him, and I would say reports about his running the floor at the Tyler Zeller level are right on tune. He's fast for 6'11, 240lbs. He's perfect for Roy's style of play.
He very well may test the NBA waters after this season. He has that size and skill level.

We'll need to see how he handles the mental challenges of his first season of college ball.

Do you think Bradley is good enough to supplant Meeks as the starting center, Wheat?

I think most people realize Bradley will be good. The 2016 high school class is renowned for its quality and depth of talent, so the #19 player (RSCI) in that class is bound to be good and able to contribute. On the Duke side, I think our fans are excited about how well Tatum, Bolden, and Jackson have lived up to or even exceeded their hype so far. I think right now in college basketball, there are lots of programs excited about how good their top-50 freshmen look.

Faison1
11-06-2016, 10:13 AM
We'll need to see how he handles the mental challenges of his first season of college ball.

Like figuring out which classes in the Course Registration Book require little to no attendance?



Sorry Wheat...couldn't resist. As an aside, I admire your perseverance through all of this. I'm not a fan of your posts or your team, but I am impressed with your willingness to stick around here...

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2016, 10:52 AM
Do you think Bradley is good enough to supplant Meeks as the starting center, Wheat?

I think most people realize Bradley will be good. The 2016 high school class is renowned for its quality and depth of talent, so the #19 player (RSCI) in that class is bound to be good and able to contribute. On the Duke side, I think our fans are excited about how well Tatum, Bolden, and Jackson have lived up to or even exceeded their hype so far. I think right now in college basketball, there are lots of programs excited about how good their top-50 freshmen look.

I'd have to see more before I'd say he has the game to start over Meeks. Meeks is now in very good shape. Many have dogged him since he came in over weight, but that kid has worked hard and transformed his body. He will command attention inside.

He will start, as a senior should, along with Hicks, but UNC will not lose anything when Bradley replaces either one.

I'm pretty excited to see how much more athletic Bradley was than I anticipated. He was quick to hedge out and recover on D and did pretty much everything right in that exhibition as far as setting solid screens, moving without the ball, keeping the ball high after a rebound, make the right pass...etc. he has a "mature" look to his game that you don't see with most freshmen.

You guys can laugh, but Luke Maye looked good too. He can play the stretch 4 role for UNC and was all over the floor. He's going to get some good PT too this season. Kid just has a good feel for the flow, has solid fundamentals, and is aggressive. He'd be the star on a mid-major team like Butler.

Brandon Robinson is another kid I had not seen that I liked. He's rail thin but quick and aggressive attacking the rim and looking for his shot. He handled the ball well too. Played a little too fast, as did Seventh Woods. They will have to adjust to the college pace and not get sped up so easily as they get into the season.

Kenny Williams looked more confident and played well, will see plenty of time at the 2g with Britt.

Berry is a stud. Simple as that. I have no doubt that he's going to be All ACC. Jackson played well too. They are clearly the best two players on the team.

I was disappointed in Hicks for my first look this season. That doesn't bode well for my pie bet with Jason. He still has all the talent he needs to be a star, but I didn't get the sense he understands the "alpha player" attitude he needs to show on the court to get to that next level he's capable of. He should act, not react on the court. Take it to people. Roy may have to go all Brice Johnson on him and really start challenging him as a player to get the best out of him.

If I was Dr. Frankenstein I'd put Luke Maye's brain in Hick's body and we'd have an All American player.

This UNC team is fast overall, bigs all have good hands, and everyone can handle the ball. They'll really push tempo this season.

chadlee989
11-06-2016, 11:06 AM
This UNC team is fast overall, bigs all have good hands, and everyone can handle the ball. They'll really push tempo this season.

This is what is said about unc entering every year

Wheat/"/"/"
11-06-2016, 12:20 PM
This is what is said about unc entering every year

Pretty much, that's the type of team Roy Williams likes to put together.

This year's team looks to be a little above UNC's average in speed, ball handling and hands, in my opinion