Westworld

[Native]

Did anybody happen to catch the series premiere of Westworld (http://discoverwestworld.com) last night? It's HBO's newest series that they've bankrolled to the tune of $100M for the first season.

In short, I thought it was spectacular. Especially as someone in the computer software industry, it seems like they're going to run into some themes that could really become relevant over the next few decades.

[BD80]

Did anybody happen to catch the series premiere of Westworld (http://discoverwestworld.com) last night? It's HBO's newest series that they've bankrolled to the tune of $100M for the first season.

In short, I thought it was spectacular. Especially as someone in the computer software industry, it seems like they're going to run into some themes that could really become relevant over the next few decades.

I enjoyed it very much, particularly the way it seems to play off the original movie. The acting is very good.

I've read some blog comments from those who have seen screenings of several episodes that compare the series to Lost, in that it gets wrapped up in side stories and loses focus on the main narrative. We'll see. It seems that the bloggers were confused about the "virtual" world, comparing it to "virtual reality."

I really did not like the plot device where an individual could write a "script" in one day which could allow the park to remove a select 10% of the hosts across such a large population and a variety of interlaced story lines.

I really like the device which causes the issues with the hosts, making them more "human." I find it interesting that the AI hosts are programmed along a master script and have the ability to improvise to cater to the desires of the guests.

[stevoflurane]

I was really looking forward to it, and really enjoyed it

One of the cool things I noticed was the music. I'm sure I missed some others, but I did pick up "westernized" versions of "Black Hole Sun," and "Paint It Black."

[JNort]

Really throws you in right away. I have never seem or even hear of the old version so this will all be new to me in every aspect. I liked the first episode but wasn't blown away.

[JasonEvans]

Loved Ep 1 and 2. Amazing mystery thriller that has elements of horror in it. I cannot stop watching!

By the way, I was extremely confused at the start of episode 2 when actor Ben Barnes showed up playing a "guest" named Logan who is really hedonistic and seeking to corrupt his quiet buddy, William. I was confused because I thought it was the same character we had seen in episode 1 who was a "host" gunslinger played by actor Rodrigo Santoro (known for playing Xerxes on 300 and Paulo on Lost). I really thought Santoro was playing both characters, but just looked this morning and saw that Logan was played by Ben Barnes. But, look at the pictures below and you will see how I could be confused.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-R-lqfGz7orI/V7szVLuExPI/AAAAAAADJVM/pJqMZGSHYzc-f9XWwJsy5rS_6soBv92DACLcB/s1600/rodrigo%2Bsantoro%2Bben%2Bbarnes%2Bwestworld.png

I sorta wish this was just an event series with 10 episodes and then it would be done. I worry about any show that tries to keep a central mystery alive over many seasons as the audience often gets frustrated and the mystery starts to not make sense any more. But, I'm really enjoying it so far. The sets and the production values are incredible for a TV series. You can see the time and money it took to create this world. The acting is first rate and I am enjoying the story so far. A few observations --


I'm not sure if the player piano motif is a metaphor for the hosts being under control or something more but there is a ton of player piano stuff happening in the opening credits and during the show. I'm betting something significant happens connected to player pianos at some point.
There have been a couple small, quick conversations among the folks in "master control" about how the company sees this as more than just an amusement park. I bet the show will very slowly develop that storyline over this season and it may explode into something big late in the season or perhaps even set up something for season two.
It has nothing to do with the show, but I think the premise of the Westworld park would get dull really quickly. The women (and men) are a bit too willing to be sex slaves, the guests cannot be hurt at all by the gunfights, it is all just too easy. It would be better if the hosts sometimes rejected the advances of the guests and there should be a thing where the guests get temporarily stunned for 5 or 10 seconds every time they get shot (or perhaps their "game" resets when they get shot and they have to start over). There's no challenge to any of it. It is especially frustrating when it comes to Ed Harris' Man in Black who is wrecking havoc all over the park and the hosts can do nothing about it.
We all get that hearing the phrase "These violent delights have violent ends" is the key to waking the hosts up, right? Is it a glitch or did Anthony Hopkins' Ford perhaps program them that way?
I loved that Thandie Newton's hooker talked about the trick she uses to wake herself up from nightmares and then she woke herself up into a living nightmare when she was taken into master control for repairs.
So that gun that Delores dug up at the end of the episode... anyone want to bet on whether it will work against guests?

-Jason "this show is must-see-TV... really high quality" Evans

[PSurprise]

So that gun that Delores dug up at the end of the episode... anyone want to bet on whether it will work against guests?
[/LIST]

That's exactly what I was thinking. It's like the photograph that the father finds in the field...buried. And something that *shouldn't* be there. I think it's a game-changer. Can't wait to see if that is what the gun is for, and if so, gets into the wrong (hosts') hands...

[JasonEvans]

Can't wait to see if that is what the gun is for, and if so, gets into the wrong (hosts') hands...

All hosts are the wrong hosts. They all have memories of horrible things happening to them at the hands of the guests. There isn't a single host that has not been raped and killed and seen the same thing happen to loved ones. If they were not machines, we would feel incredible sympathy for them. If I had to bet on what is happening, I would think Dr. Ford does feel sympathy for them and he is the one behind the glitch. He wants them to be free and take revenge on the worst of the guests.

By the way, does anyone think that little boy Ford was talking to is a host, not a real person? I wonder if Ford has built a family for himself.

-Jason "the moment Delores swatted that fly, she became someone who would use a gun to kill a guest, though it is clear the next episode or two will feature her falling in love with kind-hearted William" Evans

[Rich]

All hosts are the wrong hosts. They all have memories of horrible things happening to them at the hands of the guests. There isn't a single host that has not been raped and killed and seen the same thing happen to loved ones. If they were not machines, we would feel incredible sympathy for them. If I had to bet on what is happening, I would think Dr. Ford does feel sympathy for them and he is the one behind the glitch. He wants them to be free and take revenge on the worst of the guests.

By the way, does anyone think that little boy Ford was talking to is a host, not a real person? I wonder if Ford has built a family for himself.

-Jason "the moment Delores swatted that fly, she became someone who would use a gun to kill a guest, though it is clear the next episode or two will feature her falling in love with kind-hearted William" Evans

In reference to WestWorld, last night I tweeted https://twitter.com/2rich2/status/785321715207286786. The flyonHillary hashtag was quite popular. So far (mid-way through Episode 2) I am loving this show.

[elvis14]

Thanks for this thread. I hadn't heard of this so I went and watched the first two episodes. They were pretty good and I'm already looking forward to seeing where they go with this. So far, I really like the cast and the acting has been good without being over the top. Without knowing anything about the show before watching the first episode really made it more interesting.

[BLPOG]

All hosts are the wrong hosts. They all have memories of horrible things happening to them at the hands of the guests. There isn't a single host that has not been raped and killed and seen the same thing happen to loved ones. If they were not machines, we would feel incredible sympathy for them. If I had to bet on what is happening, I would think Dr. Ford does feel sympathy for them and he is the one behind the glitch. He wants them to be free and take revenge on the worst of the guests.

By the way, does anyone think that little boy Ford was talking to is a host, not a real person? I wonder if Ford has built a family for himself.

-Jason "the moment Delores swatted that fly, she became someone who would use a gun to kill a guest, though it is clear the next episode or two will feature her falling in love with kind-hearted William" Evans

It seemed pretty clear to me when Anthony Hopkins dismissed him that the little boy was a host. Also, I just looked up the character's name on imdb. It's "Little Boy."

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

It seemed pretty clear to me when Anthony Hopkins dismissed him that the little boy was a host. Also, I just looked up the character's name on imdb. It's "Little Boy."

Agreed, definitely a host. My take was that he built himself as a boy, based on something that the boy said about his father or grandfather (can't remember the exact quote and I watched episode 2 on Friday). Or maybe its a son or other relative that was lost at an early age. I feel like I've seen this before somewhere. Inception?

[alteran]

We all get that hearing the phrase "These violent delights have violent ends" is the key to waking the hosts up, right? Is it a glitch or did Anthony Hopkins' Ford perhaps program them that way?

-Jason "this show is must-see-TV... really high quality" Evans

It's seems pretty clear that it's something Ford/Hopkins programmed, because the show went to some lengths, during the debugging scene with Delores' father, to establish that Ford was a lover of literature, and had programmed quotes into the hosts before.

[JasonEvans]

I can't believe how many of you have not seen or even heard of the original movie. It is a fabulous flick!! Yul Brenner plays a mean gunslinger robot who keeps on coming back day after day for another fight. There is eventually a malfunction that allows the robots to turn on the humans. Richard Benjamin is the human who is stalked by Yul Brenner. There are several clever twists and the whole thing is just a lot of fun. It is worth noting that I have not seen it in at least 30 years, so it may not have aged well. But, I recall it being really good when I saw it in the 80s (it originally came out in 1973, but I was too young to see it in theaters).

The film was written and directed by Michael Chrichton (Jurassic Park, The Andromeda Strain, Twister, the TV show ER, and a ton of other really good sci-fi stuff). It was the first film he ever directed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M1mi7Ommbg

Check it out if you can find it. I am betting it is on demand or something like that due to new interest in it from the HBO series.

-Jason "It may look sorta cheesy today, but at the time it was a groundbreaking film with really good special effects" Evans

[elvis14]

Was talking with some friends at lunch about Westworld and someone mentioned the original with Yul Brenner. I remember the movie (it used to be on all the time) but I realized that I didn't know the name of the movie.

[JasonEvans]

A quick note about the writing continuity of the show.

The first two episodes were written by Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy. They are also executive producers on the show. Nolan is, of course, Christopher Nolan's brother. He wrote the original story that Christopher based Memento upon and is co-writer (with his brother) of The Prestige, Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises, and Interstellar. Lisa Joy is much less accomplished, having written several episodes of the criminally underappreciated Pushing Daisies as well as being a writer and producer of USA Network's Burn Notice.

In any event, they wrote the first two episodes and then, in an effort to maintain some continuity, they are alternating the writing duties on the rest of season 1. So, she is co-writing episode 3 (with Daniel Thompsen, who wrote The Sarah Connor Chronicles and Once Upon a Time) then he is co-writing episode 4 (with Ed Brubaker, an award-winning comic book author who wrote many issues of Batman and Captain America comics) then she is co-writing episode 5... and so on. I think it is a good plan to keep things on track and maintain some symmetry.

This is the kind of thing you can do in a 10-episode season. If you were shooting 15 or 20 episodes, it would become overwhelming for even a prolific writer.

I'm sure all of you have noticed the quality of the sets and the production. HBO is spending $100 million on the first season. That's a huge bill for a 10-episode TV show. One has to wonder if it will move the needle enough for HBO to bring it back for a second season (with a similar budget). Game of Thrones had a $10 mil per episode budget for season 6, which is the same as Westworld, but GOT is a major cultural phenomenon. Plus, the scope of some of the episodes is so massive, you can see how it would cost a lot to shoot (Battle of the Bastards was every bit a big budget Hollywood movie in terms of scope and production quality). But, GOT started out a lot cheaper -- it was reportedly about $6 mil per episode for the first couple seasons and has only hit $10 mil per episode recently. Westworld is at this level on day one.

-Jason "I wonder how many seasons Nolan and Joy have in mind. If this sucked ends on a cliffhanger and there is no season 2, I am going to be pissed!" Evans

[fidel]

I was really looking forward to it, and really enjoyed it

One of the cool things I noticed was the music. I'm sure I missed some others, but I did pick up "westernized" versions of "Black Hole Sun," and "Paint It Black."

I, too, caught this, and this was probably the best part of the show. 'Paint it Black' during the shooting rampage was surreal.

On the whole, I found the first episode way too vague as to any plot intentions. However, production value and serious props to the original movie will have me coming back.

[BD80]

... In any event, they wrote the first two episodes and then, in an effort to maintain some continuity, they are alternating the writing duties on the rest of season 1. So, she is co-writing episode 3 (with Daniel Thompsen, who wrote The Sarah Connor Chronicles and Once Upon a Time) then he is co-writing episode 4 (with Ed Brubaker, an award-winning comic book author who wrote many issues of Batman and Captain America comics) then she is co-writing episode 5... and so on. I think it is a good plan to keep things on track and maintain some symmetry. ...

This is an approach the creators have taken with Modern Family, which, in my mind, has resulted in extremely uneven episodes. Some I enjoy immensely, replete with hysterical throw away lines (like in the season premier: "my 19 y/o cousin's third wedding"), where others focus on the characters embarrassing themselves - a form of humor that makes me physically cringe.

The approach might well work for Westworld, as the writers can alternately advance differing storylines, focusing on a segment of the universe with which he or she is most familiar.

As to the original movie, there was a 1976 sequel: Futureworld, starring Peter Fonda, which continued the story arc.

[snowdenscold]

I, too, caught this, and this was probably the best part of the show. 'Paint it Black' during the shooting rampage was surreal.

On the whole, I found the first episode way too vague as to any plot intentions. However, production value and serious props to the original movie will have me coming back.

I haven't watched the show, but I did glance at the thread, see the music comments, and went to go listen:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACV5kW0muFo

Does anyone else immediately think of Duel of the Fates from The Phantom Menace? (one of the few memorable parts of that movie)
All that's missing is replacing gunshot sound effects w/ lightsaber sounds...

[stevoflurane]

I'm all in after episode 2.

Picked up "Fake Plastic Trees" by Radiohead. Anyone hear any other songs?

I'm very intrigued with Ed Harris's character and what his goal is. It kind of reminds me of the book, "Ready Player One" where Parzival is looking for the Easter Egg hidden in the Oasis. Although physically (not mentally--how long did it take him to figure out he needed to kidnap that certain bandit to lead him to his daughter who gave him the clue about the maze...), it seems too easy of a task because no matter how many bad guys they throw at him, he knows he can't be harmed. I guess we will see if that changes with that gun Delores found...

[budwom]

nice views of Utah, plot beginning to take shape...and Anthony Hopkins is always worth a look.

[elvis14]

nice views of Utah, plot beginning to take shape...and Anthony Hopkins is always worth a look.

I was thinking that Thandie Newton is always worth a look :rolleyes:

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Elements of Lost, Jurassic Park, The Matrix, with a little Firefly mixed in? Yes please.

Eager to see where this all heads.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Elements of Lost, Jurassic Park, The Matrix, with a little Firefly mixed in? Yes please.

Eager to see where this all heads.

Anyone still watching? Things are ratcheting up...

[Bostondevil]

I haven't watched the show, but I did glance at the thread, see the music comments, and went to go listen:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACV5kW0muFo

Does anyone else immediately think of Duel of the Fates from The Phantom Menace? (one of the few memorable parts of that movie)
All that's missing is replacing gunshot sound effects w/ lightsaber sounds...

Karl from Love, Actually!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Definitely heard a Nine Inch Nails song in the most recent episode.

Has interest died down? I am starting to get into it.

[BLPOG]

Definitely heard a Nine Inch Nails song in the most recent episode.

Has interest died down? I am starting to get into it.

I'm still watching. Seems like we'll get some real action next week.

[elvis14]

I'm two episodes behind. Hope to watch one tonight before I go to sleep.

[alteran]

Definitely heard a Nine Inch Nails song in the most recent episode.

Has interest died down? I am starting to get into it.

I'm still watching. I certainly like it, but feel like they've taken too long to get to the conflicts. This episode feels like we're finally getting there.

[PSurprise]

it's been a bit of a grind for me. I agree with alteran, it feels like the story did progress some with the last episode. I'm still struggling to find why I should care about any of the characters, be they robot or human. But I like using my brain to (try) figure out what is going on. I'll probably keep watching, though it'll need to be a little faster-paced for me to really like it as much as other shows I frequent.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

it's been a bit of a grind for me. I agree with alteran, it feels like the story did progress some with the last episode. I'm still struggling to find why I should care about any of the characters, be they robot or human. But I like using my brain to (try) figure out what is going on. I'll probably keep watching, though it'll need to be a little faster-paced for me to really like it as much as other shows I frequent.

I think what's interesting to me is that the "hosts", (such as Delores, Teddy, and Maive), although artificial, appear to be more human than the "guests" and employees do.

Ford has developed into a cross between Hannibal Lector and Santa Clause, which is quite intriguing.

And I'm guessing that the segments with William are taking place in the past(is William really a young The Man In Black?).

[LegoBatman]

And I'm guessing that the segments with William are taking place in the past(is William really a young The Man In Black?).

I had this same thought after episode two. The lobby and "costume shop" William and Logan entered through looked a lot like the area that was flooding/run-down when they went to find Ford in episode one. Plus they made a point of him choosing between a white or black hat before he entered the train.

Two timelines would also help to explain the "therapy" sessions which seem to take place mid-story when guests are still around and it would be impossible for the hosts to be removed unnoticed and returned to the park so quickly. Also the hosts that appear to be in two places or story lines at once.

[stevoflurane]

I think they are in the same timeline. I was at first confused about when Ford was interviewing Dolores because I was thinking, "wasn't she just with William and Logan?" But after rewatching it, Dolores is following an apparition of herself in that parade, and then hears a voice (presumably Ford giving a sleep command) and passes out. She could have easily been taken away at that point to be interviewed.

Also, there are the guests that come up to Ed Harris and thank him for his foundation saving the man's sister. At which he tells them to leave him alone, he's on vacation.

I am wondering if Arnold is the alter ego of Ford, al a Fight Club.

I'm very interested if Ed Harris and Dolores will cross paths in the maze, and what will happen with Dolores'a new trick of being able to shoot a gun. Also will Teddy protect Dolores if they meet while Teddy is with Ed Harris.

[JNort]

I'm lost. I'm all caught up but made the unfortunate mishap of trying to multitask and watch. Now I don't even know hats going on :confused:

[alteran]

I'm lost. I'm all caught up but made the unfortunate mishap of trying to multitask and watch. Now I don't even know hats going on :confused:

Sounds like you're doing it right. It's a bit confusing.

There are plot threads pointing in all sorts of directions, none with any answers forthcoming as far as I can tell.

[JasonEvans]

So, I feel a couple episodes behind but caught up over the weekend.

1) I 100% agree that the storyline with William is in the past and I think there is at least a 75% chance that the man-in-black is William at an older age. I hope this happens because there could be some cool storylines to propel him on this path. I could see him falling in love with Delores and then resenting his feelings for a being that isn't real which turns him into someone more ruthless. I think the reveal of Lawrence and El Lazo being the same android is a dead giveaway that these stories are happening at different times.

2) The way the show has begun to shift our view of the characters is truly remarkable. The man-in-black seemed 100% evil early on. He is clearly starting to turn a bit. I thought Ford was good to be this good, gentle programming genius early on. He must assuredly seems more nefarious now, especially after that chilling sit-down with Cullen (the head of the park) when he froze everyone around him with a single command word.

3) In regard to #2 above, I think the shifting way characters are perceived means that even if we think Delores or William are good now, they could easily shift to bad in little time and it would not be inconsistent with everything else happening on the show.

4) Though this show was inspired by Michael Crichton's Westworld movie (if you have not seen it, it gave me the willies for like a decade when I was much younger), there is a very stark difference. In that movie, the "hosts" were the bad guys. Their programming went awry and they became unstoppable killing machines. The TV series is taking a 180-degree turn. The hosts sure feel like the good guys. We are rooting for them to understand their circumstances and achieve consciousness. If some humans have to die to get them there, I'm not sure many of us viewers will care all that much because there are precious few humans we really like (William and Bernard are the only ones we really care about so far).

5) I have not seen last night's episode yet, but am eager to hear what happens after Maeve wakes up. Her storyline is starting to get really good. As an aside, how terrifying is Maeve's world right now?!?! She has an almost lifelike dream with some strange, alien beings in it. She then sit down and draws a picture of the alien beings. She goes to hide the picture under the floor boards and finds many more identical looking pictures she had not known about... which are clearly also drawn by her. OH MY GOD! Instant freak out!!

-Jason "eager to see where it is headed next. My sons both love this show!" Evans

[BLPOG]

So, I feel a couple episodes behind but caught up over the weekend.

1) I 100% agree that the storyline with William is in the past and I think there is at least a 75% chance that the man-in-black is William at an older age. I hope this happens because there could be some cool storylines to propel him on this path. I could see him falling in love with Delores and then resenting his feelings for a being that isn't real which turns him into someone more ruthless. I think the reveal of Lawrence and El Lazo being the same android is a dead giveaway that these stories are happening at different times.

2) The way the show has begun to shift our view of the characters is truly remarkable. The man-in-black seemed 100% evil early on. He is clearly starting to turn a bit. I thought Ford was good to be this good, gentle programming genius early on. He must assuredly seems more nefarious now, especially after that chilling sit-down with Cullen (the head of the park) when he froze everyone around him with a single command word.

3) In regard to #2 above, I think the shifting way characters are perceived means that even if we think Delores or William are good now, they could easily shift to bad in little time and it would not be inconsistent with everything else happening on the show.

4) Though this show was inspired by Michael Crichton's Westworld movie (if you have not seen it, it gave me the willies for like a decade when I was much younger), there is a very stark difference. In that movie, the "hosts" were the bad guys. Their programming went awry and they became unstoppable killing machines. The TV series is taking a 180-degree turn. The hosts sure feel like the good guys. We are rooting for them to understand their circumstances and achieve consciousness. If some humans have to die to get them there, I'm not sure many of us viewers will care all that much because there are precious few humans we really like (William and Bernard are the only ones we really care about so far).

5) I have not seen last night's episode yet, but am eager to hear what happens after Maeve wakes up. Her storyline is starting to get really good. As an aside, how terrifying is Maeve's world right now?!?! She has an almost lifelike dream with some strange, alien beings in it. She then sit down and draws a picture of the alien beings. She goes to hide the picture under the floor boards and finds many more identical looking pictures she had not known about... which are clearly also drawn by her. OH MY GOD! Instant freak out!!

-Jason "eager to see where it is headed next. My sons both love this show!" Evans

I'd bet against William's storyline being in the past. The park employees were monitoring Dolores as she went off with William. The employees haven't suddenly shifted to be composed of an entirely different group of people. That pretty conclusively quashes any timeline hopping, IMO.

Last night's episode was great, probably the best so far.

[left_hook_lacey]

I can't believe how many of you have not seen or even heard of the original movie. It is a fabulous flick!! Yul Brenner plays a mean gunslinger robot who keeps on coming back day after day for another fight. There is eventually a malfunction that allows the robots to turn on the humans. Richard Benjamin is the human who is stalked by Yul Brenner. There are several clever twists and the whole thing is just a lot of fun. It is worth noting that I have not seen it in at least 30 years, so it may not have aged well. But, I recall it being really good when I saw it in the 80s (it originally came out in 1973, but I was too young to see it in theaters).

The film was written and directed by Michael Chrichton (Jurassic Park, The Andromeda Strain, Twister, the TV show ER, and a ton of other really good sci-fi stuff). It was the first film he ever directed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M1mi7Ommbg

Check it out if you can find it. I am betting it is on demand or something like that due to new interest in it from the HBO series.

-Jason "It may look sorta cheesy today, but at the time it was a groundbreaking film with really good special effects" Evans

Who's the guy in the green hat? He looks like he could be Christian Bale's biological father.

[JasonEvans]

Who's the guy in the green hat? He looks like he could be Christian Bale's biological father.

Green shirt, not green hat, right?

That's James Brolin. He's a pretty famous actor, probably best known for the TV shows Marcus Welby, MD and Hotel. In more recent years, he was the governor of Florida who ran against Jeb Bartlett on The West Wing. He was also Ronald Reagan in the TV movie The Reagans. He was almost James Bond when Roger Moore retired, but then Moore decided to come back for two more films and the producers eventually turned to Timothy Dalton instead of Brolin.

You may also know him as the father of actor Josh Brolin and the husband of an actress/singer of some fame. Her name is Barbra Streisand.

Here's a vintage trailer that really shows you what the movie was like. As you can see, in terms of the concept it is almost exactly the same as the TV show.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcL3eP0Hfy4

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

So, I feel a couple episodes behind but caught up over the weekend.

1) I 100% agree that the storyline with William is in the past and I think there is at least a 75% chance that the man-in-black is William at an older age. I hope this happens because there could be some cool storylines to propel him on this path. I could see him falling in love with Delores and then resenting his feelings for a being that isn't real which turns him into someone more ruthless. I think the reveal of Lawrence and El Lazo being the same android is a dead giveaway that these stories are happening at different times.

2) The way the show has begun to shift our view of the characters is truly remarkable. The man-in-black seemed 100% evil early on. He is clearly starting to turn a bit. I thought Ford was good to be this good, gentle programming genius early on. He must assuredly seems more nefarious now, especially after that chilling sit-down with Cullen (the head of the park) when he froze everyone around him with a single command word.

3) In regard to #2 above, I think the shifting way characters are perceived means that even if we think Delores or William are good now, they could easily shift to bad in little time and it would not be inconsistent with everything else happening on the show.

4) Though this show was inspired by Michael Crichton's Westworld movie (if you have not seen it, it gave me the willies for like a decade when I was much younger), there is a very stark difference. In that movie, the "hosts" were the bad guys. Their programming went awry and they became unstoppable killing machines. The TV series is taking a 180-degree turn. The hosts sure feel like the good guys. We are rooting for them to understand their circumstances and achieve consciousness. If some humans have to die to get them there, I'm not sure many of us viewers will care all that much because there are precious few humans we really like (William and Bernard are the only ones we really care about so far).

5) I have not seen last night's episode yet, but am eager to hear what happens after Maeve wakes up. Her storyline is starting to get really good. As an aside, how terrifying is Maeve's world right now?!?! She has an almost lifelike dream with some strange, alien beings in it. She then sit down and draws a picture of the alien beings. She goes to hide the picture under the floor boards and finds many more identical looking pictures she had not known about... which are clearly also drawn by her. OH MY GOD! Instant freak out!!

-Jason "eager to see where it is headed next. My sons both love this show!" Evans

Maeve's just "leveled up" in several categories and is about to become a very compelling character to watch moving forward.

Have we been able to dispense with the "multiple timeline" theory yet? Even considering that possibility throws my brain into a blender when watching, and it seems much less likely now than it did twi weeks ago.

My favorite subtle detail was immediately after Maeve is told that she is programmed to do whatever they tell her to, it is clear that she has even more ability to manipulate them then they have over her - not all "control" has to do with programming. Fun commentary.

[elvis14]

Maeve's just "leveled up" in several categories and is about to become a very compelling character to watch moving forward.

Have we been able to dispense with the "multiple timeline" theory yet? Even considering that possibility throws my brain into a blender when watching, and it seems much less likely now than it did twi weeks ago.

My favorite subtle detail was immediately after Maeve is told that she is programmed to do whatever they tell her to, it is clear that she has even more ability to manipulate them then they have over her - not all "control" has to do with programming. Fun commentary.

At the risk of being politically incorrect, I have to admit that a nude Thandie Newton would have the ability to manipulate me more than I'd like to admit :cool:

I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens next with Maeve.

[PSurprise]

Anyone see last night's episode? I won't give away a significant spoiler, but things just got a LOT more interesting. Yeah! I thought the last couple of episodes were a little bit of a drag (except for Maeve's story), but this changes things a (significant) bit.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Agreed. Sets up for a heck of a run over the last three episodes to finish the season. Definitely was a game-changer that makes you rethink "good guys" and "bad guys."

[moonpie23]

did NOT see that coming. lol...


i mean, the whole attraction about AI is that it's going to go awry......we know it....

ERW is doing very well with her part...

[JasonEvans]

Agreed. Sets up for a heck of a run over the last three episodes to finish the season. Definitely was a game-changer that makes you rethink "good guys" and "bad guys."

After watching last night, I was talking to the family about the good guys and the bad guys. I'm still not sure where Ford falls on the spectrum. He is, to me, neither really good nor really bad yet. I suppose your view of him is defined by whether you think the Hosts are some new form of life -- feeling, sentient beings -- or whether they are just computers who are programmed to respond to various words and actions. That is the central theme of the show right now. Are we empathizing with characters who have feelings or are we anthropomorphizing -- putting human characteristics and feelings -- onto something that is otherwise no different from a vacuum cleaner or a washing machine? Does your computer suffer if you spill water on it? Does your car get hurt when it is involved in an accident? Are the hosts truly different from your car or your computer? The answer to that last question probably informs whether you think Ford's creation of Bernard was bad/evil or just a programming genius building a helpful tool.

I will say that I think Delos is certainly bad (the evil corporation is practically a given in a story like this) and so their spy Theresa must be bad too. I mean, her ploy to get Bernard fired was not the act of a good person. She was an integral part of Delos' attempt to steal the code (the IP) from Ford. Goodness knows what Delos wants to do with it, but I doubt their ultimate goal is to build lots of amusement parks. I could see them using the technology to create an army of Hosts with advanced military capabilities. The possibilities for massive "slave" labor camps of hosts would also seem to exist. Delos is bad, bad, bad.

So, if Ford is sorta bad and Delos is all bad, who is good? Who are we rooting for? Clearly the answer is the Hosts... at least until they start turning on mankind and killing real people (which is what happens in the Westworld movie). At the moment we feel sympathy for them, but that could change in a heartbeat.

One other note -- someone remind me what is going on with Delores and William right now. Where are they going? I'm confused. Are they trying to escape the park together? Clearly William has fallen in love with Delores even though he knows she is not real. Also Maeve is now trying to escape the park too, right?

-Jason "only 3 episodes left, but I am sure we won't get many answers by then... this will be a many-season journey. HBO is hoping this will take the place of GOT in terms of being must-watch TV for them... which means it needs to live well beyond the end of GOT in 2018" Evans

[InSpades]

So my 2 Sunday shows are The Walking Dead and Westworld... wish I had watched them in reverse order (I watched Westworld and then TWD).

I've watched Westworld every night and it has kept my interest reasonably well but I kept wishing something significant would happen. Tonight's episode blew me away and made me super excited to see how the season ends.

Meanwhile... TWD... sometimes I wonder why I'm still watching the show. 90 minutes of... I guess it's reasonably well told but it's not a story I'm really interested in seeing.

[BLPOG]

After watching last night, I was talking to the family about the good guys and the bad guys. I'm still not sure where Ford falls on the spectrum. He is, to me, neither really good nor really bad yet. I suppose your view of him is defined by whether you think the Hosts are some new form of life -- feeling, sentient beings -- or whether they are just computers who are programmed to respond to various words and actions. That is the central theme of the show right now. Are we empathizing with characters who have feelings or are we anthropomorphizing -- putting human characteristics and feelings -- onto something that is otherwise no different from a vacuum cleaner or a washing machine? Does your computer suffer if you spill water on it? Does your car get hurt when it is involved in an accident? Are the hosts truly different from your car or your computer? The answer to that last question probably informs whether you think Ford's creation of Bernard was bad/evil or just a programming genius building a helpful tool.

I will say that I think Delos is certainly bad (the evil corporation is practically a given in a story like this) and so their spy Theresa must be bad too. I mean, her ploy to get Bernard fired was not the act of a good person. She was an integral part of Delos' attempt to steal the code (the IP) from Ford. Goodness knows what Delos wants to do with it, but I doubt their ultimate goal is to build lots of amusement parks. I could see them using the technology to create an army of Hosts with advanced military capabilities. The possibilities for massive "slave" labor camps of hosts would also seem to exist. Delos is bad, bad, bad.

So, if Ford is sorta bad and Delos is all bad, who is good? Who are we rooting for? Clearly the answer is the Hosts... at least until they start turning on mankind and killing real people (which is what happens in the Westworld movie). At the moment we feel sympathy for them, but that could change in a heartbeat.

One other note -- someone remind me what is going on with Delores and William right now. Where are they going? I'm confused. Are they trying to escape the park together? Clearly William has fallen in love with Delores even though he knows she is not real. Also Maeve is now trying to escape the park too, right?

-Jason "only 3 episodes left, but I am sure we won't get many answers by then... this will be a many-season journey. HBO is hoping this will take the place of GOT in terms of being must-watch TV for them... which means it needs to live well beyond the end of GOT in 2018" Evans

Dolores seems to only have a vague idea of where she is going. It's just "away." It also appears to be a place related to Arnold, and possibly how/where he died. I think it is implied that she was there and her desire to reach that location is due to Arnold's influence.

[stevoflurane]

I think William and Dolores will cross paths with Ed Harris at the maze. I think that's where they are headed. Ed Harris is just taking another route to get there.

[JasonEvans]

I think William and Dolores will cross paths with Ed Harris at the maze. I think that's where they are headed. Ed Harris is just taking another route to get there.

That would be complicated because Delores has deep feelings for both William and Teddy. How would she react to being with both of them? What's more, Ed Harris has some kind of connection to Delores as well. Talk about messy!

-Jason "I really think William and the Man in black are on different time lines" Evans

[LegoBatman]

I think William and Dolores will cross paths with Ed Harris at the maze. I think that's where they are headed. Ed Harris is just taking another route to get there.

That assumes that William and The Man in Black are different people :D

My wife mentioned she had heard there were two different logos being used for Westworld giving credence to the different timelines theory. A retro-looking logo which seems to match up with William/Logan timeline and a more modern logo that goes along with the Man In Black timeline. I didn't notice it myself, but I plan to keep an eye out for the logos in future episodes.

I found this article which does an episode by episode run-down of the two different logos (minus the episode from last night) : https://www.inverse.com/article/23301-westworld-two-timelines-logo

[duketaylor]

JE, wasn't Westworld sequelled with Future World, Peter Fonda, I believe?

I watched both as a kid as an adult now.

Yep, found this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTMtu4Z5T-U

In the trailer you'll see Stuart Margolin who played Angel Martin on The Rockford Files, one of my fave shows of all-time.

[stevoflurane]

That assumes that William and The Man in Black are different people :D

My wife mentioned she had heard there were two different logos being used for Westworld giving credence to the different timelines theory. A retro-looking logo which seems to match up with William/Logan timeline and a more modern logo that goes along with the Man In Black timeline. I didn't notice it myself, but I plan to keep an eye out for the logos in future episodes.

I found this article which does an episode by episode run-down of the two different logos (minus the episode from last night) : https://www.inverse.com/article/23301-westworld-two-timelines-logo

I've been thinking a lot about the old/young Man in Black theory. I like it, my wife likes it. It would be easy to show that Dolores got her memory wiped and that's why she doesn't know the Man in Black when she sees him at the beginning of the series.

However, I still think Dolores is on her way to the maze with William. If that is the case, then William/the Man in Black will have made it to the maze. If they are the same person, why would the Man in Black be searching so hard for the maze if he has already been there previously?

If you don't think that Dolores is on her way to the maze, then the Same person/different timeline theory makes sense.

As far as the different logos, I've been super leery of fan theories ever since I was convinced that Shaggydog was still alive based on a rundown of every single detail of the scene where the Umber brings the direwolf's head to Ramsey. I kept waiting for Shaggydog to come out and get Ramsey. But alas, it didn't happen.

The good news is that hopefully we'll find out soon, and I'm pretty confident in saying that it's gonna be awesome either way.

[alteran]

However, I still think Dolores is on her way to the maze with William. If that is the case, then William/the Man in Black will have made it to the maze. If they are the same person, why would the Man in Black be searching so hard for the maze if he has already been there previously?

Maybe Delores gets enough autonomy to betray William before reaching the maze (or at least do something he interprets as betrayal)-- which might explain the darker (and extremely disturbing) actions by the MIB towards Delores in earlier episodes this season. William's journey with Delores might be where he actually discovers the existence of the maze, and becomes obsessed with WestWorld. (He's already gone from indifferent to WW to halfway obsessed already.)

In fact, maybe William's/young MIB's experience might be enough to shift his personality in a darker direction, possibly causing him to move from being a fat-and-happy, successful but relatively anonymous corporate vice president, to being some sort of widely known man of wealth and influence.

[JasonEvans]

Maybe Delores gets enough autonomy to betray William before reaching the maze (or at least do something he interprets as betrayal)-- which might explain the darker (and extremely disturbing) actions by the MIB towards Delores in earlier episodes this season. William's journey with Delores might be where he actually discovers the existence of the maze, and becomes obsessed with WestWorld. (He's already gone from indifferent to WW to halfway obsessed already.)

In fact, maybe William's/young MIB's experience might be enough to shift his personality in a darker direction, possibly causing him to move from being a fat-and-happy, successful but relatively anonymous corporate vice president, to being some sort of widely known man of wealth and influence.

How about this for a scenario --

William falls in love with Delores while on the current mission (already happening). At some point in the mission, she dies and he is heartbroken. He goes home and breaks up with his fiance (Logan's sister) and turns himself into a ruthless businessman (using the formidable ambition and drive he acquired while in Westworld). He is wildly successful and sets up charities. He later goes back to Westworld and sees Delores again (because she never really dies). He approaches her but she does not remember him because her memory has been wiped from the previous mission. He is confused and conflicted and angry -- the woman he loves is still alive but he has to "win her" all over again. He sees the "drop the milk can" scene where he first met her but he is just a step or two too late and it is Teddy who picks up the can and connects with her instead. William follows Teddy and Delores around all day, watching the two hosts fall in love. At the end of the day, he cannot take it any longer and he kills Teddy and rapes Delores. He comes back time and again to do the exact same thing, year after year. He is obsessed with Westworld but also hates the place. At some point, he discovers the concept of "the maze" and believes that true sentience and lasting memory will come to all the hosts if he can reach the center of the maze. It is finally his chance to win Delores for all eternity.

I'd watch that show...

[stevoflurane]

I like both of those scenarios, Jason and alteran, and yes, I would watch (already am). Is it Sunday night yet?

[LegoBatman]

Those are some good ideas. I'm also wondering about the relationship between William\MIB and Ford. Does William blame Ford for the death and/or betrayal of Delores? Did William try to get Ford to "restore" Delores to her pre-death/betrayal state and Ford refused? How long has the MIB been trying to find the maze and has Ford been actively thwarting his efforts?

[LegoBatman]

The good news? Westworld has been renewed for season two.
The bad news? It might not air until 2018.

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/11/14/westworld-season-2

The article also mentions that Westworld has been averaging 11.7 million viewers, which is higher than the first season of Game of Thrones

[JasonEvans]

Here is a sometimes funny article (https://theringer.com/lets-stop-pretending-we-know-what-s-going-on-in-westworld-e1afd7f584bc#.2kvwza2az) on Westworld from The Ringer entitled: Let’s Stop Pretending We Know What’s Going on in ‘Westworld’


My wife and I were watching one of the earlier episodes and a thing happened and she turned to me and said, “Bernard is a robot. They’re going to reveal it later. Watch.” When she said it, I said, “No way. That’s way too obvious.” Now, to be clear, I didn’t say, “That’s way too obvious” because it was obvious to me that Bernard (Jeffrey Wright) was a robot — in fact, I had no idea at all that Bernard was a robot. I said “That’s way too obvious” because that’s what I always say in situations when someone is saying a thing to me that I’d never considered before because it’s like an intuition smokescreen. So in this most recent episode when it was revealed that Bernard actually is a robot, she leaned to me and said, “I told you.” I said, “I can’t believe they made it so obvious,” and then I sat there and tried to not visibly freak out after learning that Bernard was a robot.

[duketaylor]

The original "Westworld" was on Sci-Fy this morning, watched it, nearly in-toto. Very decent movie. Good cast.

[moonpie23]

mannnnnnnnnn....this rabbit hole goes deep...

[JasonEvans]

This is easily the best show on TV right now. It isn't even close. A few quick thoughts before I go to sleep...

I'm not certain, but I think the woman MIB and Teddy found is the woman who greeted William in his first episode, the one who took him to the room to pick out the hats. This makes it almost a certainty that William and the MIB must be on different time lines.

Still, I’m torn as to whether William and MIB are the same person. A lot of stuff seems to be tilting in that direction, but William has a pair of very distinctive moles next to his mouth that MIB does not have. I suppose he could have had surgery or something to change his appearance. Maybe I am reading too much into it. It is not like Ed Harris and the guy playing William look that much alike anyway.

“Now, its time to recruit my army” was an end of the episode cliffhanger line.. We got it 30 minutes into this episode. That's how good this episode was!

-Jason "more in the morning" Evans

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'm not certain, but I think the woman MIB and Teddy found is the woman who greeted William in his first episode, the one who took him to the room to pick out the hats. This makes it almost a certainty that William and the MIB must be on different time lines.



Pretty sure she was not. She was the new Clementine introduced in the cat house. Regardless, it strengthens the two timeline theory.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Pretty sure she was not. She was the new Clementine introduced in the cat house. Regardless, it strengthens the two timeline theory.

...well, apparently we were both right.

[JasonEvans]

Pretty sure she was not. She was the new Clementine introduced in the cat house. Regardless, it strengthens the two timeline theory.

So, it appears she was...

1) the host who greeted William
2) the new Clementine
3) the woman who MIB and Teddy found who was later revealed to be part of Wyatt's creepy gang

So, umm, are there 3 timelines? Could Maeve's timeline be in the past as well? Did they say the park had "an incident" at some point in its history?

-Jason "My personal prediction is that we will see the William = MIB reveal in the season finale in 2 weeks... and then we will have to wait a year (or more) to find out what happens next. Argh!!!" Evans

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

So, it appears she was...

1) the host who greeted William
2) the new Clementine
3) the woman who MIB and Teddy found who was later revealed to be part of Wyatt's creepy gang

So, umm, are there 3 timelines? Could Maeve's timeline be in the past as well? Did they say the park had "an incident" at some point in its history?

-Jason "My personal prediction is that we will see the William = MIB reveal in the season finale in 2 weeks... and then we will have to wait a year (or more) to find out what happens next. Argh!!!" Evans

Well, as the season progresses, Ford's motives seem less and less... friendly. And MIB might be a more benevolent character than we though at first. Certainly his methodology is ruthless, but he may be trying to expose the underbelly of Westworld for what it is.

Point being, if his purposes are counter to Ford's he might not have undertaken the massive "Good William to Evil Man In Black" transformation we all have been considering.

Also, I don't think a third timeline is necessary. If the took the "introductory" hostess and moved her to the saloon in real time, that makes sense to occur in the same early timeline. Having her in the scene with the giant man-beast in the second timeline makes sense, and William would recognize her.

Speaking of... um, "man-beast?" Was that an allusion to the minotaur guarding the Labyrinth? Or just another random JJ Abrams polar bear moment? Was quite jarring.

[Rich]

So, it appears she was...

1) the host who greeted William
2) the new Clementine
3) the woman who MIB and Teddy found who was later revealed to be part of Wyatt's creepy gang



Wait, I just caught up and watched this episode and must have missed that. How do you know that she's all three? By her looks or was their dialogue that I missed? I may have to go back and watch again. You may think this show is great, but I'm getting frustrated.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Wait, I just caught up and watched this episode and must have missed that. How do you know that she's all three? By her looks or was their dialogue that I missed? I may have to go back and watch again. You may think this show is great, but I'm getting frustrated.

Just because it is the same actress. I didn't catch the call back to the host who orients William, but I believe the saloon scene was right before the scene with the bandits that she was in. Also, MIB did have a line of throw away dialogue like "I thought the retired you years ago" or something to that effect.

[Rich]

Just because it is the same actress. I didn't catch the call back to the host who orients William, but I believe the saloon scene was right before the scene with the bandits that she was in. Also, MIB did have a line of throw away dialogue like "I thought the retired you years ago" or something to that effect.

I tend to treat throw away lines as just that (obviously at my peril)!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I tend to treat throw away lines as just that (obviously at my peril)!

Do a google search for "Wyatt Westworld" - will spin your head in circles.

[elvis14]

Do a google search for "Wyatt Westworld" - will spin your head in circles.

I may officially hate you :-)

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/11/westworld-season-1-episode-8-trace-decay-who-is-wyatt

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I may officially hate you :-)

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/11/westworld-season-1-episode-8-trace-decay-who-is-wyatt

That's the one I read too.

[elvis14]

That's the one I read too.

Makes me want to go back and rematch the entire season with a new perspective. You guys are costing me some serious sleep time over Thanksgiving weekend!!!

[stevoflurane]

So I'm trying to be in the camp against the multiple timeline theory, but the more and more I see, the more and more it looks possible.

The girl in Wyatts gang, after looking back at the second episode, seems to be the host that greets William. And that line makes it seem like they met before. I don't believe that she is the new Clem. Another thought I had was if William went to the saloon at the beginning and runs into Maeve, that would be good evidence against the dual timeline theory, because it seems that when the MIB was younger, Maeve was a homesteader. I could have sworn that they ran into each other in the 2nd episode. But, alas, they did not cross paths. So the theory lives on.

[BLPOG]

So I'm trying to be in the camp against the multiple timeline theory, but the more and more I see, the more and more it looks possible.

The girl in Wyatts gang, after looking back at the second episode, seems to be the host that greets William. And that line makes it seem like they met before. I don't believe that she is the new Clem. Another thought I had was if William went to the saloon at the beginning and runs into Maeve, that would be good evidence against the dual timeline theory, because it seems that when the MIB was younger, Maeve was a homesteader. I could have sworn that they ran into each other in the 2nd episode. But, alas, they did not cross paths. So the theory lives on.

I couldn't quite remember if they crossed paths in the bar. Even if they did not, Teddy did encounter Maeve when spotting Dolores out the window. Dolores was in the same part of her loop as when William first meets her. Unless we are to assume that Dolores has been running that loop for a VERY long time, multiple timelines don't really make sense. Beyond that, it appears that when Dolores reaches the abandoned town it has been abandoned for quite a while.

I agree the timeline theory has started to seem more plausible, but if it pans out I think it will be less an example of good misdirection than incoherent, bending-over-backward explanations of how the timelines don't interfere.

[stevoflurane]

One thing about this show, and a reason I'm sure the multiple timeline theory seems plausible is that they could always go back and say, "Well, Delores just had her memory wiped. That's why she doesn't remember this or that." Or, "well, they used to be this or that character years ago." They definitely leave that possibility open.

But I still thinking Delores (with William) and the MIB will meet in the maze.

[LegoBatman]

But I still thinking Delores (with William) and the MIB will meet in the maze.

Maybe they're in charge of the memory wipes? I wonder if the "flashy" thing works on hosts or only biological lifeforms?

Every time I type or read MIB I think of Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones. :cool:

[LegoBatman]

Makes me want to go back and rematch the entire season with a new perspective. You guys are costing me some serious sleep time over Thanksgiving weekend!!!

I'm thinking of doing this as well once the season is over. We've got plenty of time though, especially if season two doesn't air until 2018.

[PSurprise]

poof. Brain fried.

[BLPOG]

Last night's episode was nuts. In case anyone hasn't seen it yet, I'll include my thoughts in a spoiler tag:

Looks like folks were right about the dual timeline theory. It's a bit of a mess to make sense out of it all because on top of the dual timelines we're watching flashbacks and hallucinations. I was rooting for the dual timeline theory by the time we reached this episode, despite my reservations about it. I think the writers kind of cheated to get there.

My two major objections, due to possible continuity problems, are that (1) this story requires that Dolores was on the same loop (dropping stuff outside the saloon) for 30 years, or that she had been removed and then reverted to the same loop, and that (2) the town buried in the sand was buried when Dolores first returned in the past (presumably, but not actually, long after the death of Arnold), and also buried when Ford encountered the little boy nearby, yet unearthed and clean this time around.

For Dolores to remain in the same loop the whole time seems to defy the general pattern of changing narratives/roles for the hosts. IIRC some character even mentioned in an early episode that Dolores had been reassigned before. The town being buried/uncovered with a short turnaround is even less believable, but might be OK if it is tied in to Ford's new narrative. I'm all for shows that make the viewers work some things out, but at some point the writers are either being sloppy or lazy, because without an explicit explanation in-world these seem like contradictions to me.

For all my nitpicking though, I was blown away by last night's episode.

[stevoflurane]

The picture. That sealed the double timeline for me.

[JasonEvans]

Last night's episode was nuts. In case anyone hasn't seen it yet, I'll include my thoughts in a spoiler tag:

Looks like folks were right about the dual timeline theory. It's a bit of a mess to make sense out of it all because on top of the dual timelines we're watching flashbacks and hallucinations. I was rooting for the dual timeline theory by the time we reached this episode, despite my reservations about it. I think the writers kind of cheated to get there.

My two major objections, due to possible continuity problems, are that (1) this story requires that Dolores was on the same loop (dropping stuff outside the saloon) for 30 years, or that she had been removed and then reverted to the same loop, and that (2) the town buried in the sand was buried when Dolores first returned in the past (presumably, but not actually, long after the death of Arnold), and also buried when Ford encountered the little boy nearby, yet unearthed and clean this time around.

For Dolores to remain in the same loop the whole time seems to defy the general pattern of changing narratives/roles for the hosts. IIRC some character even mentioned in an early episode that Dolores had been reassigned before. The town being buried/uncovered with a short turnaround is even less believable, but might be OK if it is tied in to Ford's new narrative. I'm all for shows that make the viewers work some things out, but at some point the writers are either being sloppy or lazy, because without an explicit explanation in-world these seem like contradictions to me.

For all my nitpicking though, I was blown away by last night's episode.

A few days later, spoilers be damned at this point.

Perhaps Delores was in the same loop all that time because it is a brutal loop and it was her punishment for killing Arnold. I knew she was going to be the cause of Arnold's death. I sorta wish the show had given that to us as a violent and dramatic flashback instead of just having her say it. Speaking of Arnold's death, Logan mentioned that there was a glitch which was why Delos was looking to buy the park. I bet that glitch was Delores killing Arnold.

As for the city in the sand, didn't it get dug up recently as part of Ford's new narrative?

If Maeve wants to go back to central processing, couldn't she think of a better way to get there other than burning herself alive (while boinking Paolo/Xerxes)?

So, now we know that Bernard is modeled after Arnold. I want to say that I do not mind one bit that the show has given us enough hints to guess at almost all the big reveals lately. I like that these twists are not coming out of left field. It shows that everything is planned and that the show is not just about mind-bending twists. Sure, we will find out that William is the MIB next episode. I've got no problem with that being sniffed out by folks either. That said, it would be fun to have a real surprise or two every now and then. I suspect Maeve may provide one next week.

-Jason "this is a fabulous program... I hope they can find a way to get it back on next winter as it helps us all get through the months without GOT" Evans

[davekay1971]

-Jason "this is a fabulous program... I hope they can find a way to get it back on next winter as it helps us all get through the months without GOT" Evans

Agreed on all of the above. My wife and I are into this program and have gotten more into each week.

Some other survival thoughts between GOT seasons, however...(and this season, let us be thankful for Netflix and Hulu streaming)

Black Sails - for me, the most entertaining long form series out there, even compared to GoT (if only because Black Sails has less of those "I wish I hadn't seen that" moments than GoT, and it has the utter awesomeness of Charles Vane, Captain Flint and John Silver)

Vikings - most people have already enjoyed this. I'm just now catching up, working through season one and really enjoying it

Stranger Things - my 14 year old daughter got me into this, so I'm holding off until the next time she's here (lives with her mom in Phila primarily) to watch more, but looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Anyone who wants their brains even more fried, ought to check out the subreddit for Westworld. They were totally on point with analysis and prediction of what was actually going on, several episodes ahead of where I was even suspicious.

[A-Tex Devil]

I am pretty sure the new Clementine that Maeve gives the Sicilian necktie to is not being played by Elon Musk's (ex?) wife. Two different people

[BlueDevilBrowns]

It may be too soon to discuss specifics with last nights season finale, but I will say that I believe we know now who the new host Ford was building in his lab a couple episodes ago.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Man, what an episode. Will also wait a day or two to discuss.

[elvis14]

OK, so all that just happened. I'm going to watch it 1 more time because I know there's stuff I missed. Looking forward to the discussion :-)

[LegoBatman]

FYI, there is a short scene at the end of the credits.

[elvis14]

FYI, there is a short scene at the end of the credits.

Thanks, I missed that! Now I really have to watch again. That's what happens when an episode is 1.5 hours long and you watch the first 1/3 on an exercise bike in the gym, the 2/3 while eating lunch at your desk and the 3/3 at your desk when you should be working but can't wait to find out what's going to happen. Thank goodness for HBO Go, iPhones and ear buds :-)

[stevoflurane]

Samurai World!!!

[stevoflurane]

It may be too soon to discuss specifics with last nights season finale, but I will say that I believe we know now who the new host Ford was building in his lab a couple episodes ago.

Ooh. Good call.

[JasonEvans]

It may be too soon to discuss specifics with last nights season finale, but I will say that I believe we know now who the new host Ford was building in his lab a couple episodes ago.

I'm guessing you are implying that the Ford that was shot was a host and that the real Ford is still alive. Westworld creator/showrunner/writer/director Jonathan Nolan spoke to Deadline (http://deadline.com/2016/12/westworld-finale-jonathan-nolan-interview-anthony-hopkins-hbo-1201864525/) and said, “Well, that version of Ford is dead.” If I had to guess, I would say that is a pretty strong indication that some other version of Ford (probably the real one) will crop up some time in season 2. Nolan also says he wants season 2 to explore Samurai World, at least a little bit.

By the way, everyone is saying that season 2 won't come around until 2018. Bummer...

As for the finale, to me the most important thing that happened was Maeve and the revelation that she was programmed to escape. She may think she has free will, but she was doing exactly what Arnold (or someone else) wanted her to do. That said, despite being programmed to escape, she chose to turn back and get off the train so she could look for her daughter. I doubt that was in her programming.

-Jason "I thought the finale was good, but not great -- probably because we had already figured so much stuff out -- there was a lot of time spent on Delores coming to painfully obvious conclusions" Evans

[Udaman]

JE - could not agree with you more (which is actually complimenting myself...because...well u da man).

Was underwhelmed with this episode....I guess because we had all figured it out. Separate timeline? Check. Man in black and Man in White same person? Check. The entire point being that the hosts have to think for themselves and eventually turn on the guests. Check, check, check, check, check.

The pacing in this one was also waaaaay to slow. I actually sort of fell asleep at one point.

Also didn't buy William turning so easily into the Man in Black. I mean he kills a few people then realizes he likes that, and then suddenly switches hats? And gets mad because he realizes that Dolores is just in a program loop and cares about someone else over him? What happened to him wanting to save her? What happened to him realizing that she was different? I mean for a while there I actually started hoping that the man in black was the brother...and he had killed William (though that clearly wasn't going to happen). And I just couldn't buy the three badies doing so much destruction in the tunnels. I mean surely the operators would have an easy kill switch to turn everyone off, right? And when Maeve burned herself up, they would have just said "Good - don't need to bring her back." and then it would be over.

And now, for next year, we already know that Ford isn't dead. No way. That was another host. He knew they were going to turn on him, and he wanted them all to think he was out.

It was still a great series overall, with a great plot and a fair look at the value of existence. But this episode was one of the worst of the season IMHO. And now we wait over a year for more. Sigh. I will add, in a total non-sequitur, that today heading to work I was wishing that the networks would do a reboot of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Maybe it's all the "us v. them" that Westworld brings up. Or the strong female heroins.

[El_Diablo]

Also didn't buy William turning so easily into the Man in Black. I mean he kills a few people then realizes he likes that, and then suddenly switches hats?

You are glossing over a lot there. His use of violence steadily escalated throughout the season, as he went from killing a host who was threatening Clementine in the street (and then only after being shot himself), to killing an unarmed host as part of the ambush, to (likely) killing in cold blood a host who was wounded by the river, to massacring an entire camp while they slept, and THEN to his full-blown revenge rampage. And he wasn't necessary all the way there by then either, as we know another 30 years went by after that. The change was reflected in his escalating altercations with Logan over the season and was pretty clearly a gradual descent over time rather than the result of a solitary trigger.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

I'm guessing you are implying that the Ford that was shot was a host and that the real Ford is still alive. Westworld creator/showrunner/writer/director Jonathan Nolan spoke to Deadline (http://deadline.com/2016/12/westworld-finale-jonathan-nolan-interview-anthony-hopkins-hbo-1201864525/) and said, “Well, that version of Ford is dead.” If I had to guess, I would say that is a pretty strong indication that some other version of Ford (probably the real one) will crop up some time in season 2. Nolan also says he wants season 2 to explore Samurai World, at least a little bit.

By the way, everyone is saying that season 2 won't come around until 2018. Bummer...

As for the finale, to me the most important thing that happened was Maeve and the revelation that she was programmed to escape. She may think she has free will, but she was doing exactly what Arnold (or someone else) wanted her to do. That said, despite being programmed to escape, she chose to turn back and get off the train so she could look for her daughter. I doubt that was in her programming.

-Jason "I thought the finale was good, but not great -- probably because we had already figured so much stuff out -- there was a lot of time spent on Delores coming to painfully obvious conclusions" Evans


Yes, that's exactly what I thought the minute Delores shot Ford in the back of the head. Ford is too much of a narcissist to allow himself to be killed, let alone of at the hands of the same host who killed Arnold. So I figure he was planning this thing out for weeks(hence his building a host of himself in his secret lab, not in the main area with any other employees around). I also was wondering if he somehow figured out a way to transfer his mind to that of a host, there-by achieving "immortality", the very thing Delores told MIB he could never have. So possibly, the real Ford did die, only for his mind to still be living, in that of the host he built for himself. I'm overthinking that one maybe?

Anyways, I felt like the finale as a whole was very heavy on symbolism and light on plot development... So, from that standpoint, I was disappointed.

Dr. Ford turning all of a sudden into the "emancipator" of the hosts, only to be shot in the back of the head during his "theatrical" presentation of his new narrative, felt like a slightly too obvious nod to Abraham Lincoln being assassinated at Ford's Theatre. Further, the violent interaction between MIB and Delores in the finale seemed forced(both of them acting dense about the value and purpose of the maze) as well, I guess in order to highlight female oppression, then enlightenment, and ultimately, empowerment.

As far as the Maeve storyline, I firmly believe everything we witnessed in regards to her "liberation" was indeed written, not by Arnold, but by Ford himself. Ford wanted Maeve to go on her rampage to distract and, ultimately, shut down security at the park so that Delores and the freed hosts could be free to take out the Delos execs at the party. I don't believe her "choosing" to return to the park was Maeve's choice, either, as Ford, imo, doesn't want any of his creations to leave. Ford isn't a liberator, he's a mad scientist that wants total control over his work, using the hosts as his weapon of choice to eliminate Delos. He's been arranging this host "takeover" since Episode 1.

Overall, the show has been a great psychological thriller, with Anthony Hopkins providing an epic performance... But the season finale was kinda "meh", imo.

[Rich]

As for the finale, to me the most important thing that happened was Maeve and the revelation that she was programmed to escape. She may think she has free will, but she was doing exactly what Arnold (or someone else) wanted her to do. That said, despite being programmed to escape, she chose to turn back and get off the train so she could look for her daughter. I doubt that was in her programming.

Funny, I thought the opposite. I thought the default programming would have kept her inside the park rather than in the real world. As I watched I knew she would get off the train at some point because that would be the more likely programming move.

While I've read many blogs and this Board so I was aware of all of the spoilers, I didn't really understand them until I saw this episode. I, for one, enjoyed watching it play out and dotting the line for me to follow. I've found the first 9 episodes to be very frustrating and made me work too hard to enjoy my TV. This one finally stooped to my level and is the only reason why I would consider watching Season 2.

[left_hook_lacey]

Just finished episode 1 and 2 and I am completely in love with this show. I read the first page of the thread, but then clicked to reply to thread before I got into any spoilers.

One continuity issue I don't understand yet; hoe do the hosts guns do legit damage to each other, but not to guests? I hope they explain that or it is going to be a major pet peeve of mine. Otherwise, I love the show

[JasonEvans]

One continuity issue I don't understand yet; hoe do the hosts guns do legit damage to each other, but not to guests? I hope they explain that or it is going to be a major pet peeve of mine. Otherwise, I love the show

It is never really explained, but in a world where truly lifelike AI robots are possible, the notion of "smart bullets" that affect their targets in different ways seems positively simplistic. The gun and/or the bullet are programmed to react one way when targeting live human flesh and a different way when pointed at an inanimate object. Simple.

-Jason "I'm far more concerned about how Samurai World will keep everyone safe around all those swords" Evans

[mkirsh]

It is never really explained, but in a world where truly lifelike AI robots are possible, the notion of "smart bullets" that affect their targets in different ways seems positively simplistic. The gun and/or the bullet are programmed to react one way when targeting live human flesh and a different way when pointed at an inanimate object. Simple.

-Jason "I'm far more concerned about how Samurai World will keep everyone safe around all those swords" Evans

A lot of people had knives in Westworld....

I found the reveal of Samurai World fascinating. How many different worlds are there? The tech told Maeve "it's complicated", and when he gave her the paper with her daughter's location it said "Park 1, Sector...". Are all the parks using Ford's hosts? Does he write the narratives for all of them? Maybe this was a throw-away and I'm making too much of it, or it might play a big part in future seasons (maybe there is a "futureworld" park, like the original movie sequel?)

[JasonEvans]

I found the reveal of Samurai World fascinating. How many different worlds are there? The tech told Maeve "it's complicated", and when he gave her the paper with her daughter's location it said "Park 1, Sector...". Are all the parks using Ford's hosts? Does he write the narratives for all of them? Maybe this was a throw-away and I'm making too much of it, or it might play a big part in future seasons (maybe there is a "futureworld" park, like the original movie sequel?)

So, where would you want to visit? The old west, as it is portrayed in the movies and on TV, would be fun. I'm not really digging Samurai World, though I could see it being popular with Asian tourists and I am sure they are a big market for Delos.

Personally, I want to visit Medieval World, especially if it could have a few "magical creatures" like Ogres or Dragons. I could see why HBO would not want to go there with the story right now, as it would feel like a GOT knock off, but in some future season they could try something like that. Recall that even the animals in Westworld are "hosts" which would seem to make mythical creatures entirely possible.

The original movie had a Medieval World as well as a Roman World. I would imagine the life of a gladiator would appeal to some in Roman World. I suppose the possibilities are endless. It might be more difficult to pull off due to the water, but Pirate World would be awesome too!

-Jason "now that I think about it, Pirate World better show up on this series at some point... but, please, no Johnny Depp!" Evans

[JasonEvans]

This is what I wrote a few weeks back...


How about this for a scenario --

William falls in love with Delores while on the current mission (already happening). At some point in the mission, she dies and he is heartbroken. He goes home and breaks up with his fiance (Logan's sister) and turns himself into a ruthless businessman (using the formidable ambition and drive he acquired while in Westworld). He is wildly successful and sets up charities. He later goes back to Westworld and sees Delores again (because she never really dies). He approaches her but she does not remember him because her memory has been wiped from the previous mission. He is confused and conflicted and angry -- the woman he loves is still alive but he has to "win her" all over again. He sees the "drop the milk can" scene where he first met her but he is just a step or two too late and it is Teddy who picks up the can and connects with her instead. William follows Teddy and Delores around all day, watching the two hosts fall in love. At the end of the day, he cannot take it any longer and he kills Teddy and rapes Delores. He comes back time and again to do the exact same thing, year after year. He is obsessed with Westworld but also hates the place. At some point, he discovers the concept of "the maze" and believes that true sentience and lasting memory will come to all the hosts if he can reach the center of the maze. It is finally his chance to win Delores for all eternity.

I got some aspects of it, including a few specifics, right. I think the transition from William to the MIB happened too quickly on the show and that my somewhat more gradual turn (one that was more based on Delores herself) would have been better.

[moonpie23]

just caught up last night......nothing is really surprising me at this point. I'm thinking that next season will reveal more back story for understanding and linkage, but i may have forgotten by 2018.....sheesh..


this show is off the chain, but, as others have said as well, there places where the dialogue slows down so much it gets boring...I too nodded off...

[moonpie23]

and btw, this IS the best show on TV......

[fuse]

Started watching over the weekend, only the last 2 episodes left.
Some interesting twists so far.

[alteran]

Started watching over the weekend, only the last 2 episodes left.
Some interesting twists so far.

You'll need to take notes. They crammed way more stuff in those last two episodes, maybe more than the previous right.

[fuse]

Not sure something as old as Westworld qualifies for spoilers.

Disappointed in the major twist of the time shift.
That feels like lazy plot / story writing.

Pardon the western pun, on the fence about watching a season two.

Also, while it works for Game of Thrones, I don't need a 3 minute musical intro for every miniseries.