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OZZIE4DUKE
10-09-2007, 09:55 AM
We have no chance against them. They are better athletes, better coached, better conditioned. They have better fans. We don't belong on the same field as them.

Or so someone once said (paraphrasing liberally) before a 1 - 3 Duke team played Clemson in 1989...

Stay home at your own peril!

BEAT VaTech!

TillyGalore
10-09-2007, 10:12 AM
While I'm pretty sure of the outcome of Saturday's game, I want Duke to make VT to earn the win.

But, I'm soooo going to be at this game just in case I'm wrong and this is the weekend of major upsets.

LET'S GO DUKE!!!!

Highlander
10-09-2007, 10:47 AM
While I'm pretty sure of the outcome of Saturday's game, I want Duke to make VT to earn the win.

But, I'm soooo going to be at this game just in case I'm wrong and this is the weekend of major upsets.

LET'S GO DUKE!!!!

My brother is a VTech grad, and I'm going to the game with him. Nothing would make me happier than for Duke to stick it to VTech in Football like they stuck it to us in Basketball a few years ago.

TillyGalore
10-09-2007, 10:55 AM
My brother is a VTech grad, and I'm going to the game with him. Nothing would make me happier than for Duke to stick it to VTech in Football like they stuck it to us in Basketball a few years ago.

I forgot about that! Even more of a reason to cheer on the Blue Devils!!!

6th Man
10-09-2007, 11:11 AM
I'm going to tear down a goal post after the VICTORY! WHEW!

Yikes, that may be a sore subject around campus right now!;)

DevilWolf
10-09-2007, 11:55 AM
Do you guys remember last year's game? Thaddeus Lewis doesn't. That's why I want to win this game, to truly right the wrong of the worst cheap shot I've seen in years followed by the unwillingness of the league to do anything about it.

6th Man
10-09-2007, 12:12 PM
You are right about that DevilWolf.........that was definitely a cheap shot. I hope Thad comes out blazing. I still remember that play. Thad had thrown the ball and it was half way to the receiver when he got speared in the head. Va. Tech has always played dirty in my opinion. There were several late hit calls in that game.

The Gordog
10-09-2007, 12:46 PM
We have no chance against them. They are better athletes, better coached, better conditioned. They have better fans. We don't belong on the same field as them.

Or so someone once said (paraphrasing liberally) before a 1 - 3 Duke team played Clemson in 1989...

Stay home at your own peril!

BEAT VaTech!

I have not been to WW in a while. Section 5 looks good, but can anyone tell me -- how far back is row PP?

Thanks,

throatybeard
10-09-2007, 12:48 PM
I have not been to WW in a while. Section 5 looks good, but can anyone tell me -- how far back is row PP?

Thanks,

Pretty close to the disgusting rooms in which you can PP.

Bluedawg
10-09-2007, 12:52 PM
VA Tech had better take Duke seriously (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22672&SPID=1843&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1256308)


The Miami game was Lewis’ 16th college start. The quarterback position has not been one of strength or consistency for the past decade (Thad is the 10th different starter in the last 10 seasons), but Lewis has made it clear with his play that he can lead the team. He’s developed chemistry with his receivers, most notably Jomar Wright and Eron Riley, and he just has a knack for making things happen. He is developing poise under pressure and has both the respect and the confidence of his teammates. At Miami his receivers had trouble getting separation from the secondary and his linemen couldn’t hold back the rush of future pros such as Calais Campbell forever, but there was no finger-pointing going on afterward.

As much as Lewis was harassed by the Canes, with all the sacks, hits and two strips for fumbles, he kept getting up for more. After the game he was asked about two consecutive plays where his helmet was knocked off. “I had to tighten up the chin strap a little bit,” he said. “It’s the game of football, baby. You’re going to get roughed up a little bit.”

Lewis has completed over 60 percent of his passes this year, with 11 touchdowns against just five interceptions. He is the first quarterback in Duke history to throw for double-digit touchdowns in each of his first two years (11 last year). Even the rival Hurricanes acknowledged his considerable potential as they congratulated him after the game.

‘’Thad is a pretty good player,’’ end Eric Moncur told the Miami Herald. Moncur played against Lewis in high school and broke through for the critical sack on fourth down with three minutes left.
“A lot of coaches and players on this team feel he’s going to be the man when he’s a senior.’’

I firmly believe that they are on the threshold of moving to the next level.

Indoor66
10-09-2007, 01:45 PM
I have not been to WW in a while. Section 5 looks good, but can anyone tell me -- how far back is row PP?

Thanks,

Probably about 48 rows up.

SilkyJ
10-09-2007, 02:09 PM
Do you guys remember last year's game? Thaddeus Lewis doesn't. That's why I want to win this game, to truly right the wrong of the worst cheap shot I've seen in years followed by the unwillingness of the league to do anything about it.

More like cheap shotS. I remember the one you are talking about, but there were at least 2 others that were ridiculous.



I firmly believe that they are on the threshold of moving to the next level.

I believed this half-heartedly before the season, but the way we are playing I am finally entrenched in this belief. We are so young and still playing solid football. Next year we should return a lot of starters at key positions and be in good shape.


I have not been to WW in a while. Section 5 looks good, but can anyone tell me -- how far back is row PP?

Thanks,

t-beard's hilarious comment aside, you can pretty much sit wherever you want in WW, b/c the stadium usually has a lot of vacancy. That's not a swipe at anyone, i'm being serious. If you have crappy seats, you can definitely move closer to the field.

OZZIE4DUKE
10-09-2007, 03:14 PM
t-beard's hilarious comment aside, you can pretty much sit wherever you want in WW, b/c the stadium usually has a lot of vacancy. That's not a swipe at anyone, i'm being serious. If you have crappy seats, you can definitely move closer to the field.

Wallace Wade is a lot like Cameron in that sitting in the last row is still a pretty darn good seat. And section 5 puts you about mid field, near the President's box. Lots of folks like to sit higher in the stands for a better view. I prefer the other (west) side of the field so the sun is not in my eyes as the afternoon wears on.

Olympic Fan
10-09-2007, 03:38 PM
I don't think there's anybody else on the schedule that I'd rather see Duke beat this season than VPI -- and that includes UNC.

I thought last year's VPI gameplan was borderline criminal. I'm not complaining about bringing a lot of pressure on a young QB ... that's part of football and it was good strategy against a freshman who had just thrown for 300-plus yards. But it sure looked like there was a systematic effort to injury or at least knock out Lewis.

As Silky pointed out, Rouse's vicious late hit on Lewis was not the first dirty blow delivered by VPI's defense -- it was the third that was flagged as a late hit. I remember that the second one came on a play in the end zone ... as the TV replay rolled, Lewis was hit a second after he released the ball and the announcer was saying, "That's a pretty borderline call ..." Just as he got the word "call" out, Lewis was speared by ANOTHER VPI defensive lineman -- that was the play that drew the flag.

Are three late hits, all leading with the helmet, in 20 minutes (the Rouse hit was five minutes into the second quarter) evidence of a plan to physically injure an opponent? Was Beamer's cavalier dismissal of any criticism of Rouse (reportedly his punishment was that he had to run a few sprints the next week in practice) evidence that he countenenced the assault?

It will be interesting to watch Saturday and see if VPI mounts another attack on Lewis. Pressure ... fine. But watch out for the late hits. If it happens again, I hope Roof will stand up for his quarterback a little more vocally than he did last year. And I hope there were be enough Duke fans in WW to let Beamer know that he's not beloved everywhere.

PS I know that the people in Blacksburg don't want to be called VPI any more. My attitude is $^%$ them. When they begin to behave with a little class, I'll show them some consideration.

Bob Green
10-09-2007, 03:52 PM
The good news is that Virginia Tech's offense is not very good. The bad news is that their defense is very good. Additionally, they have achieved significant success with their special teams. In order to have a chance to win the game, we must play turnover free football, not give up big plays, and protect Thad Lewis so he can throw the ball to our talented receivers. It'll take 60 minutes of solid effort to achieve, but it sure would be great to knock of the # 12 (AP) team in the nation.

SilkyJ
10-09-2007, 03:55 PM
PS I know that the people in Blacksburg don't want to be called VPI any more. My attitude is $^%$ them. When they begin to behave with a little class, I'll show them some consideration.

Keep singin it brotha.

HOKIE HOKIE HOKIE HIGH, GO TO HELL V-P-I!

fan345678
10-09-2007, 05:13 PM
I don't think there's anybody else on the schedule that I'd rather see Duke beat this season than VPI -- and that includes UNC.

I thought last year's VPI gameplan was borderline criminal. I'm not complaining about bringing a lot of pressure on a young QB ... that's part of football and it was good strategy against a freshman who had just thrown for 300-plus yards. But it sure looked like there was a systematic effort to injury or at least knock out Lewis.

As Silky pointed out, Rouse's vicious late hit on Lewis was not the first dirty blow delivered by VPI's defense -- it was the third that was flagged as a late hit. I remember that the second one came on a play in the end zone ... as the TV replay rolled, Lewis was hit a second after he released the ball and the announcer was saying, "That's a pretty borderline call ..." Just as he got the word "call" out, Lewis was speared by ANOTHER VPI defensive lineman -- that was the play that drew the flag.

Are three late hits, all leading with the helmet, in 20 minutes (the Rouse hit was five minutes into the second quarter) evidence of a plan to physically injure an opponent? Was Beamer's cavalier dismissal of any criticism of Rouse (reportedly his punishment was that he had to run a few sprints the next week in practice) evidence that he countenenced the assault?

It will be interesting to watch Saturday and see if VPI mounts another attack on Lewis. Pressure ... fine. But watch out for the late hits. If it happens again, I hope Roof will stand up for his quarterback a little more vocally than he did last year. And I hope there were be enough Duke fans in WW to let Beamer know that he's not beloved everywhere.

PS I know that the people in Blacksburg don't want to be called VPI any more. My attitude is $^%$ them. When they begin to behave with a little class, I'll show them some consideration.

Actually, people don't really mind being called VPI. It's at the end of the fight song.

While no punishment other than the normal sprints for personal fouls was handed out to Rouse directly, ACC officials have generally been pretty quick with the late hit flags on VT since that game. Most VT fans will acknowledge that the undisciplined behavior of the team in the early games last year is the reason they don't get the benefit of the doubt.

As for a systematic plan to hurt Lewis, the only thing systematic is that the VT coaching staff, and every other coaching staff in the history of football, recruits players who would want to intimidate a freshman quarterback. You don't have to be George Halas to know that a quarterback will get rattled if you can get a lot of hits on him. That said, Rouse definitely crossed the line last year, and VT defensive end Chris Ellis in particular has done so throughout his career. Rouse, however, had a habit of lowering his head, and there was a play in the VT-WF game last year in which the WF fullback lowered his head to run over Rouse, but Rouse lowered his own head to make the tackle, and both went down hard.

Keep in mind, though, that slow motion replay greatly distorts the way the game appears, and to some, it made what was a horrible cheap shot on Lewis look more like premeditated assault. College football is a very fast and very physical game in which players (especially on defense) react to situations before they have time to think. You see egregious late hits and cheap shots every week, especially in the NFL, where the officials have tried hard to crack down on cornerbacks and safeties who take full-speed shots at receivers after incomplete passes. Fortunately, most of these hits aren't helmet-to-helmet, but the pervasive philosophy in the game-- at least for players-- is to get as many big hits in as you can (SI or ESPN had an article recently on violent hits in the NFL).

RelativeWays
10-09-2007, 05:33 PM
Duke 63, VT 0

At least that was the final score I got last night playing NCAA Football 2006. Surely it's based in reality right?

Troublemaker
10-09-2007, 05:38 PM
I think Duke has a great chance to win this game as long as our special teams don't get blown off the field, which, very obviously, is iffy. VT's offense will keep us in the game. I don't think they have an o-line that can control the LOS against Duke, which is a rare thing to see. They won't score many points against us if they have the long field to work with, imo. They'll need turnovers and ST play to score. To summarize, if our special teams hold their own, and if Duke doesn't turn the ball over, this is a dead even game. I've tossed a few dollars on Duke +14 and Duke moneyline. Go Devils!

Mabdul Doobakus
10-09-2007, 06:41 PM
I remember getting very angry last year while watching last year's Va Tech game and just reading all this stuff is making me angry all over again. As far as I'm concerned, this is a grudge match. We have to meet them with some physical play of our own. Maybe we can beat them, maybe we can't, but, yeah, we have to make them earn it the hard way.

allenmurray
10-09-2007, 07:25 PM
The Blue Devils will face a better team than duke this weekend, but that does not mean we cant pull a App State
last year we lost to UVA buy 40 on homecoming but that is in the past

we have been in every game this year till halftime or the 4th quarter

Thadd and company are playin great and we will storm the field and beat the 10th ranked team this Saturday

Final Score:

DUKE: 21

VT: 17

fan345678
10-09-2007, 07:38 PM
VT's offense is just plain bad, and the defense has gotten worn down late in games as a result. Lewis is the most dangerous QB VT has faced (except for the LSU duo). VT's top defensive player (LB Vince Hall) is out and top RB is fighting injuries.

Bob Green
10-10-2007, 07:21 AM
Duke is 5-1 against the spread (http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-football/standings/). We didn't cover the spread against UConn in the season opener but are 5-0 since.

Okay, why is this relevent? It could be interpreted as evidence the team's performance is improving. We are losing by less points than predicted. While it is everyone's goal to rack up some wins in the second half of the season, I believe this "useless bit of trivia" is evidence we are getting better.

VT is favored by 13 points this weekend. I am rooting hard for a victory. If Stanford can beat USC, we can beat the Hokies. At a minimum, we cover the spread.

YmoBeThere
10-10-2007, 07:29 AM
Duke is 5-1 against the spread (http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-football/standings/). We didn't cover the spread against UConn in the season opener but are 5-0 since.

Bob, I am not sure I trust the numbers presented. I was standing at the board at the Palms on the day we were playing Navy, and unless I read it incorrectly, it had us as a 14 point favorite(this was a weekend or two after Navy's loss to Rutgers). So, if my memory is correct, we didn't cover this one.

Bob Green
10-10-2007, 07:56 AM
Bob, I am not sure I trust the numbers presented. I was standing at the board at the Palms on the day we were playing Navy, and unless I read it incorrectly, it had us as a 14 point favorite(this was a weekend or two after Navy's loss to Rutgers). So, if my memory is correct, we didn't cover this one.

I believe you were reading the board wrong, but I can't find a link to support my opinion. It seems the betting websites don't maintain the spreads from previous weeks. In the link I posted it is clear that we have "covered" all four games on the road and are 1-1 at home. I know we covered against Wake Forest as they were an 8 point favorite. It is my opinion that Navy was favored by 14 over us but I would appreciate other posters weighing in with the facts (and a link).

whereinthehellami
10-10-2007, 08:33 AM
Actually, people don't really mind being called VPI. It's at the end of the fight song.

While no punishment other than the normal sprints for personal fouls was handed out to Rouse directly, ACC officials have generally been pretty quick with the late hit flags on VT since that game. Most VT fans will acknowledge that the undisciplined behavior of the team in the early games last year is the reason they don't get the benefit of the doubt.

As for a systematic plan to hurt Lewis, the only thing systematic is that the VT coaching staff, and every other coaching staff in the history of football, recruits players who would want to intimidate a freshman quarterback. You don't have to be George Halas to know that a quarterback will get rattled if you can get a lot of hits on him. That said, Rouse definitely crossed the line last year, and VT defensive end Chris Ellis in particular has done so throughout his career. Rouse, however, had a habit of lowering his head, and there was a play in the VT-WF game last year in which the WF fullback lowered his head to run over Rouse, but Rouse lowered his own head to make the tackle, and both went down hard.

Keep in mind, though, that slow motion replay greatly distorts the way the game appears, and to some, it made what was a horrible cheap shot on Lewis look more like premeditated assault. College football is a very fast and very physical game in which players (especially on defense) react to situations before they have time to think. You see egregious late hits and cheap shots every week, especially in the NFL, where the officials have tried hard to crack down on cornerbacks and safeties who take full-speed shots at receivers after incomplete passes. Fortunately, most of these hits aren't helmet-to-helmet, but the pervasive philosophy in the game-- at least for players-- is to get as many big hits in as you can (SI or ESPN had an article recently on violent hits in the NFL).

For those who claim VT plays dirty football, please re-read the above post, as he is a voice of reason and makes sense. Rouse got carried away and admitted to it. Football is a very aggressive sport and hormone influenced decisions happen in seconds. Bowden was quoted a couple of years as saying you play from whistle to whistle, and its a long whistle. To be good in football, especially on defense you have to be aggresive, confident, and a little mean. All of the top defenses in collge football and the pros have those traits.

VT is pretty banged up right now and are ripe for the picking. Adibi their other top LB is dinged up and Ore their RB has numerous issues (ribs, ankle, right leg). Their O-line is really hurting and has numerous issues.

This game will be close unless VT can get some early TOs or special team's plays like they did against Clemson. So the question is, how does Roof play the Hokies? Do you go all out for the win and attack, playing into VT's stengths (TOs) or do you make VT earn everything (play conservatively) and not give them the TOs they feed off of. I think if your Roof, you go for the jugular. VT is emotionally drained after the Clemson game and I think are hoping to be able to limp into a little respite in the schedule (12 days off). Plus the best way to neutralize their fast and aggresive defense is to attack it, despite the chance of TOs.

Bluedawg
10-10-2007, 09:20 AM
I believe you were reading the board wrong, but I can't find a link to support my opinion. It seems the betting websites don't maintain the spreads from previous weeks. In the link I posted it is clear that we have "covered" all four games on the road and are 1-1 at home. I know we covered against Wake Forest as they were an 8 point favorite. It is my opinion that Navy was favored by 14 over us but I would appreciate other posters weighing in with the facts (and a link).

Running the risk of sounding completely uninformed on this subject, although i am, please give us a short course on "covering the spread 101" and what I'm looking at when i bring up your link.

Bluedawg
10-10-2007, 09:22 AM
For those who claim VT plays dirty football, please re-read the above post, as he is a voice of reason and makes sense. Rouse got carried away and admitted to it. Football is a very aggressive sport and hormone influenced decisions happen in seconds. Bowden was quoted a couple of years as saying you play from whistle to whistle, and its a long whistle. To be good in football, especially on defense you have to be aggresive, confident, and a little mean. All of the top defenses in collge football and the pros have those traits.

Bobby is right, you do play whistle to whistle. Granted it was many moons ago and i did personally opt not to play college ball, but in HS football my defensive coach preached if it wiggles hit it...and we did. I love an aggressive defense, one that group tackles and is not afraid to go all out. however, within the rules, the whistle to whistle rules there are known exceptions.

one of those exceptions is that you do not hit the kicker while he is in the motion of kicking. granted the whistle did not blow, but you still do not do it. Another is that you do not hit the QB after the ball is thrown. You can kill him if he is in the motion of throwing, but once the ball leaves his hands you do not. Again, the whistle has not blown, but he is hands off. Not a hard rule to follow.

kydevil
10-10-2007, 09:30 AM
Duke 63, VT 0

At least that was the final score I got last night playing NCAA Football 2006. Surely it's based in reality right?

You must be very good at that game! :D

Olympic Fan
10-10-2007, 11:46 AM
Bobby is right, you do play whistle to whistle. Granted it was many moons ago and i did personally opt not to play college ball, but in HS football my defensive coach preached if it wiggles hit it...and we did. I love an aggressive defense, one that group tackles and is not afraid to go all out. however, within the rules, the whistle to whistle rules there are known exceptions.

one of those exceptions is that you do not hit the kicker while he is in the motion of kicking. granted the whistle did not blow, but you still do not do it. Another is that you do not hit the QB after the ball is thrown. You can kill him if he is in the motion of throwing, but once the ball leaves his hands you do not. Again, the whistle has not blown, but he is hands off. Not a hard rule to follow.

Exactly ... you can't defend what VPI did last season as normal aggressive defense. Lewis was hit late THREE times on SIX pass attempts -- at least three that were called. Rouse's blow was not only late, but it was a helmet to helmet blow. In the NFL, it would have earned him a big fine and a suspension. At VPI, it earned him a few wind sprints (and probably a pat on the back).

Mabdul Doobakus
10-10-2007, 12:20 PM
Bob, I am not sure I trust the numbers presented. I was standing at the board at the Palms on the day we were playing Navy, and unless I read it incorrectly, it had us as a 14 point favorite(this was a weekend or two after Navy's loss to Rutgers). So, if my memory is correct, we didn't cover this one.


I think I read you saw +14 on the board in another post. That puts Duke as the underdog. Essentially, you have to add 14 to their score.

YmoBeThere
10-10-2007, 12:42 PM
What I meant by the +14 is that we had to win by at least 14...not necessarily what I saw on the board at the Palms. I was considering betting on the game and then saw the line and changed my mind. Playing Navy and getting 14 points would have been an easier choice. I did make money on the 4 other football bets I made(pro games the next day).

The Gordog
10-10-2007, 01:21 PM
I was looking for something a little more useful. Halfway up, 2/3, 3/4, near the top: something like that.

whereinthehellami
10-10-2007, 01:34 PM
Exactly ... you can't defend what VPI did last season as normal aggressive defense. Lewis was hit late THREE times on SIX pass attempts -- at least three that were called. Rouse's blow was not only late, but it was a helmet to helmet blow. In the NFL, it would have earned him a big fine and a suspension. At VPI, it earned him a few wind sprints (and probably a pat on the back).

I'm not defending Rouse but I am defending VT to some extent. I don't think an order was given by VT to take out Lewis but I do think that good defenses try to hit guys as hard as possible. VT plays a very aggresive D where they fly to the ball and hit hard. Lewis was scrambling alot that day because of the penetration and trying to make something happen (which he was). I think Rouse got caught up in the moment (trying to make a play) and was a half second late(real time). FWIW Rouse was brutal against VT's offense in practice and was known as an equal opportunity hard hitter. He is now in the NFL and I think there is correlation between his aggression and his paycheck.

Why anyone would want to play football is beyond me but I sure do enjoy watching it.

DukeDude
10-10-2007, 02:24 PM
I'm not defending Rouse but I am defending VT to some extent. I don't think an order was given by VT to take out Lewis but I do think that good defenses try to hit guys as hard as possible. VT plays a very aggresive D where they fly to the ball and hit hard. Lewis was scrambling alot that day because of the penetration and trying to make something happen (which he was). I think Rouse got caught up in the moment (trying to make a play) and was a half second late(real time). FWIW Rouse was brutal against VT's offense in practice and was known as an equal opportunity hard hitter. He is now in the NFL and I think there is correlation between his aggression and his paycheck.

Why anyone would want to play football is beyond me but I sure do enjoy watching it.

Beamer is the Bob Huggins of college football. He has no interest in disciplining players as long as there are games to be won. The fact that Rouse was out of control in VTs practices doesn't excuse what happened in the game. It merely puts the blame squarely on Beamer for doing nothing to curb his reckless behavior.

VaDukie
10-10-2007, 03:37 PM
Beamer is the Bob Huggins of college football. He has no interest in disciplining players as long as there are games to be won. The fact that Rouse was out of control in VTs practices doesn't excuse what happened in the game. It merely puts the blame squarely on Beamer for doing nothing to curb his reckless behavior.

Beamers-Huggins comparison is spot on IMHO.

tombrady
10-10-2007, 03:56 PM
Most importantly*, of course, this weekend Tailgate returns.

It will be spectacular, especially with all the recent alumns in town.



*i.e. more important than the game itself. Yeah, I said it.

whereinthehellami
10-10-2007, 04:41 PM
Here is a preview (http://subscr.techsideline.com/news_archive/showArticle-3187.php) of the Duke-VT matchup from Techsideline, the DBR of the Hokies.

Bluedawg
10-10-2007, 06:13 PM
Here is a preview (http://subscr.techsideline.com/news_archive/showArticle-3187.php) of the Duke-VT matchup from Techsideline, the DBR of the Hokies.

Very well said...

Duke is an improved football team. They defeated Northwestern 20-14 on the road. They lost to Navy on a last second field goal, played Virginia tough in Charlottesville before falling 24-13, lost to defending ACC Champion Wake Forest by just five, and trailed Miami by only three points with less than three minutes left in the game in the Orange Bowl. They could easily be better than 1-5 at this point, but they haven't learned how to close out games.

...it's good to see the respecting what TR and company have done over here.

DevilAlumna
10-10-2007, 06:47 PM
Also from that preview:


Only Graham Harrell (Texas Tech), Brian Brohm (Louisville), Curtis Painter (Purdue), Andre Woodson (Kentucky), Sam Bradford (Oklahoma), Alex Brink (Washington State) and Colt Brennan (Hawaii) have more touchdown passes than Thad Lewis so far this season.


Lewis is keeping some good company! (Though they also point out his -75 yards rushing....)

Troublemaker
10-10-2007, 10:02 PM
What I meant by the +14 is that we had to win by at least 14...not necessarily what I saw on the board at the Palms. I was considering betting on the game and then saw the line and changed my mind. Playing Navy and getting 14 points would have been an easier choice. I did make money on the 4 other football bets I made(pro games the next day).

No, Bob had it right and Duke indeed is 5-1 against the spread this season. You either read the board wrong or the Palms posted it wrong (if that were the case, they would've cancelled your bet had you made it). Navy was the favorite in that game.

Duke is a pretty popular play this week among bettors who know what they're doing. That doesn't mean Duke will necessarily cover, as even the best only hit about 60% of their games, but there are a lot of signs that point to this being a close game.

Mabdul Doobakus
10-10-2007, 11:06 PM
Duke excels at line play

The Blue Devils are 1-5 on the field but 5-1 against the spread.
By Lonnie White, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
October 10, 2007
Six weeks into the college football season, several teams have climbed to the top of the heap when it comes to beating the spread, led by undefeated Cincinnati, Kansas and Missouri.

But one successful team stands out more than the rest: Duke, which despite a 1-5 record on the field is 5-1 against the spread.

In last week's 41-36 loss to Wake Forest, the Blue Devils displayed why they have become such a strong bet. After spotting the seven-point favorite Demon Deacons a 34-9 lead, Duke rallied behind quarterback Thaddeus Lewis and scored 27 of the final 34 points.

Lewis, who threw four touchdown passes against Wake Forest, is the type of player who can produce points in a hurry. He leads an explosive offense that works well in super-sized point-spread games.

That's a positive combination for the Blue Devils, who have not been a favorite for a game since they played East Carolina on Sept. 3, 2005.

Duke will be an underdog again Saturday when it plays host to Virginia Tech, a 13 1/2 -point favorite.

It should be noted that the Hokies, who have won four games in a row and are 5-1 this season, do not have a good track record against the spread. They have failed to cover in four of five games, but did so in a 41-23 win at Clemson last week.

What about last season's game between Duke and Virginia Tech? The Blue Devils were 34-point underdogs and the Hokies won, 36-0.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-lines10oct10,1,4340265.story?coll=la-headlines-sports


Just came across this. Nice to see Thad and the boys getting a little national attention. 13 1/2 points is probably a lot smaller than anyone here would have predicted for this game at the beginning of this season.

fan345678
10-11-2007, 12:19 PM
Beamers-Huggins comparison is spot on IMHO.

Seriously? That's a pretty strong assertion. Got any evidence, or perhaps a list of comparisons?

That's actually a pretty ridiculous claim. Beamer has never broken any rules, does not have personal self-control issues, is well-liked and respected by his peers, and is one of the least arrogant people in college sports. To compare Beamer to Huggins is to reveal your ignorance about college football, and probably college sports in general.

Stray Gator
10-11-2007, 12:43 PM
... Bowden was quoted a couple of years as saying you play from whistle to whistle, and its a long whistle. ...

Just for the record, prior to the UF-FSU Sugar Bowl game following the 1996 season--after FSU had defeated UF at Tallahassee in a game made controversial because of numerous unflagged but obvious late hits by FSU defenders on UF quarterback Danny Wuerffel--Bobby Bowden said during an interview on national TV that FSU coaches its players to "hit to the echo of the whistle." Sure enough, they continued doing that when playing UF in the Sugar Bowl; and as a result, with a neutral officiating crew, FSU was flagged for 5 unsportsmanlike conduct penalties and lost 52-20.

whereinthehellami
10-11-2007, 01:14 PM
Just for the record, prior to the UF-FSU Sugar Bowl game following the 1996 season--after FSU had defeated UF at Tallahassee in a game made controversial because of numerous unflagged but obvious late hits by FSU defenders on UF quarterback Danny Wuerffel--Bobby Bowden said during an interview on national TV that FSU coaches its players to "hit to the echo of the whistle." Sure enough, they continued doing that when playing UF in the Sugar Bowl; and as a result, with a neutral officiating crew, FSU was flagged for 5 unsportsmanlike conduct penalties and lost 52-20.

Thanks for the specifics. It was a while ago but the gist of the quote stuck with me. I think that mentality pays dividends for defenses as it gets in the heads of the opposition's offense.

YmoBeThere
10-11-2007, 09:55 PM
No, Bob had it right and Duke indeed is 5-1 against the spread this season. You either read the board wrong or the Palms posted it wrong (if that were the case, they would've cancelled your bet had you made it). Navy was the favorite in that game.

Duke is a pretty popular play this week among bettors who know what they're doing. That doesn't mean Duke will necessarily cover, as even the best only hit about 60% of their games, but there are a lot of signs that point to this being a close game.

Bob, Mabdul, Troublemaker,

My apologies on the point spread versus Navy. I go to Vegas 2-3 times a year and bet on multiple(5-10)sporting events each time. Don't know how I could have missed the Duke line like I did. Crap, us getting 14 pts should have been something I was betting on. Though I don't generally bet on Duke sporting events(i.e. Men's b-ball).

I was just being stubborn.

YmoBeThere

Udaman
10-12-2007, 01:59 PM
One thing I feel pretty consistent about is that VT plays dirty. Last year, in one of the cheapest shots I can remember (and I'm still miffed that the player who committed it was not suspended), a guy took three extra steps and leveled Lewis, knocking him out of the game. It was his second unsportsmanlike penalty. They seem to get 3-4 a game against us.

Trust me, they will try to take out Lewis. In their mind, if he is out, then they crush us, and if not, then he's at least intimidated.

Man, I hate the Hokies football team.

whereinthehellami
10-12-2007, 04:06 PM
Here is another Duke-VT preview (http://tailgatefever.com/handler.cfm?action=Index) I found on google. Apparently they don't like Wallace Wade. I think Duke has a real shot this weekend. Though the injuries on the defensive side of the ball will be tough to overcome.

OZZIE4DUKE
10-12-2007, 05:20 PM
Trust me, they will try to take out Lewis. In their mind, if he is out, then they crush us, and if not, then he's at least intimidated.

Man, I hate the Hokies football team.

If they take Lewis out (and I certainly hope they do NOT!), then FDA gets to see what Zack Asack can do. At least someone would be happy.

formerdukeathlete
10-13-2007, 09:35 AM
If they take Lewis out (and I certainly hope they do NOT!), then FDA gets to see what Zack Asack can do. At least someone would be happy.

I'd like to see Asack gets some pt for at least a series of downs, throwing short routes over the middle. We have a good few tight ends. And, when coverage is tight, see him choose to run right up through the middle.

the post two above re VT take on Wade hits home. What I'd like to see the trustees focus on in Feb. is where removing and relocating the track fits in, or should fit in with a renovation of Wade. I see this as the single most important feature of a renovation.

Where to relocate the track if they decide this should be in the contruction plans? Taking a look at an aerial photo, south of Cameron, East of Academy, West of the golf course, there is a lot of available land contiguous to the athletic complex.

Mabdul Doobakus
10-13-2007, 12:32 PM
Alright, Coach Roof, we've spotted VPI 6 points, now it's time to stop running the ball up the middle every play. Let's actually try to score this time instead of working on establishing the run.

EarlJam
10-13-2007, 12:38 PM
Alright, Coach Roof, we've spotted VPI 6 points, now it's time to stop running the ball up the middle every play. Let's actually try to score this time instead of working on establishing the run.

I just turned on the game (didn't know it was on here in Atlanta). In the fourth second of me watching the game, I saw the kicked ball hit the Duke returner in the chest, bounce off and hop right into the arms of the VT player.

Nice.

-EarlJam

JasonEvans
10-13-2007, 12:38 PM
uhhh, we're trying to lose, right? We really make it hard for us to be competitive sometimes.

What happened on that kickoff?!?!?

--Jason

Bob Green
10-13-2007, 12:41 PM
It is 13-0 already. We cannot afford to get further behind. Thad Lewis needs to throw the ball as we cannot run it.

Mabdul Doobakus
10-13-2007, 12:42 PM
Disastrous start. We're still trying to cram it up the middle too.

JasonEvans
10-13-2007, 12:46 PM
We jsut ran a play where the QB faked a handoff and did a keeper. The RB he faked the handoff to ran right next to him... to exactly the same spot. The defense tackled both of them.

I am guessing that play should have looked differently than it did.

--Jason "Thad just threw a laser to the Va Tech 5... that kid is a QB!!!" Evans

Mabdul Doobakus
10-13-2007, 12:49 PM
Now that's what I'm talking about.

Showed some guts and a will to score on that drive. Nice patience by Thad on the sneak. That's how you're supposed to do it.

Mabdul Doobakus
10-13-2007, 12:54 PM
Well, whatever else happens, at least we scored in this year's contest.

Jumbo
10-13-2007, 01:11 PM
Damn. Defense couldn't have looked slower (or tackled worse) on that last drive. 20-7 now.

Bob Green
10-13-2007, 01:17 PM
We just went three and out on three running plays. I don't understand why we don't throw the ball.

Stray Gator
10-13-2007, 01:23 PM
I'm not sure I can ever recall seeing worse special teams play in one half--punts that consistently go sideways, a fumbled kickoff turned over to the opponent in easy scoring range, another kickoff return for 4 yards--Duke's most serious competitive disadvantage so far today.

Mabdul Doobakus
10-13-2007, 01:27 PM
We just went three and out on three running plays. I don't understand why we don't throw the ball.

It is SO frustrating. Our only way to win this game is a good day from Lewis and the passing game, and we're not even giving it a shot.

We need to start throwing on first down.

Stray Gator
10-13-2007, 01:31 PM
...and the special teams play only gets worse. Now 34-7, with almost 6 minutes left in the first half. I can't bear to watch any more.

JasonEvans
10-13-2007, 01:32 PM
I'm not sure I can ever recall seeing worse special teams play in one half--punts that consistently go sideways, a fumbled kickoff turned over to the opponent in easy scoring range, another kickoff return for 4 yards--Duke's most serious competitive disadvantage so far today.

And we just had a punt blocked. The announcer on TV thinks we should just go for it on 4th down because our punting is so abysmal.

And we just fumbled the kickoff. This is unreal.

--Jason "is this bad coaching or just everything going wrong at the same time?" Evans

Jumbo
10-13-2007, 01:33 PM
It is SO frustrating. Our only way to win this game is a good day from Lewis and the passing game, and we're not even giving it a shot.

We need to start throwing on first down.

But when we do throw, we can't protect the QB. VT is just light-years more talented. Sigh.

Jumbo
10-13-2007, 01:39 PM
Competely outplayed, outcoached, out-of-focus and unprepared to play today. Of course, when we add a few late TD's, the coach and numerous posters on this page will talk about the courage of the team.

We are stuck with Roof through next year, but I hope someone can have the courage to fire him next November.

I'm not sure what coaching has to do with fumbling kicks, kicking the ball sideways and generally being slower and smaller than the other team at virtually every position. But, hey, if you want to blame Roof for this, go ahead.

And let me add that it doesn't take "courage" to fire someone when he's down. It takes courage to stick with someone in that situation.

arnie
10-13-2007, 01:50 PM
Jumbo,

You have repeatedly supported Roof though this extremely dismal period of Duke football. That is your prerogative to do so - but for those few fans that remain, many of us recognize that Roof does not have the ability (or resources) to bring the team to a competitive level within the ACC. Do you at least agree that if he fails to win several games in the ACC next year, his time should be up?

Jumbo
10-13-2007, 01:56 PM
Jumbo,

You have repeatedly supported Roof though this extremely dismal period of Duke football. That is your prerogative to do so - but for those few fans that remain, many of us recognize that Roof does not have the ability (or resources) to bring the team to a competitive level within the ACC. Do you at least agree that if he fails to win several games in the ACC next year, his time should be up?

I've actually only started to get involved in football conversations over the last few weeks. I've stated my opinion -- Roof deserves to coach through Thad and VO's senior year. That gives him two more seasons. If h does nothing that year then, yes, he should go. But I hope it never comes to that point -- as we all should.

Meanwhile, as I watch this game today, I just can't see how "coaching" can be blamed over the far more glaring differences between these two teams.

JasonEvans
10-13-2007, 02:05 PM
Jumbo,

You have repeatedly supported Roof though this extremely dismal period of Duke football. That is your prerogative to do so - but for those few fans that remain, many of us recognize that Roof does not have the ability (or resources) to bring the team to a competitive level within the ACC. Do you at least agree that if he fails to win several games in the ACC next year, his time should be up?

I am not Jumbo but I will answer anyway ;)

Putting arbitrary numbers of wins out there as some requirement is foolish. Progress. That is what we look for. Is Duke making progress as a team? It is as simple as that. As soon as Roof shows he is no longer making progress, if the players give up on him or if the team clearly steps backwards over the period of several weeks, then I will agree it is time to look for someone new. Based on his comments at other times on this board, I am fairly sure Jumbo feels similarly.

Sigh-- can we put this to bed please? Roof is the coach now adn will be the coach until at least the end of this season barring something unforseeable right now. I think it is destructive to talk too much about his demise while the season is still going. I think fans should support him and the players at this time. When the season is done then it will be an appropriate time to revisit this, IMO.

--Jason

CameronBlue
10-13-2007, 02:06 PM
Roof's job at the moment is to keep the team's focus and try to preserve something of the momentum generated over the last few weeks. The 3 and outs are killing us. Under the circumstances I'd give FDA his wish. Bring in Asack just to refocus the team and try to rekindle a little energy. Nobody expected Duke to win this one, but Roof needs to try to avoid suffering a loss that will debilitate the team for the rest of the season. This is one of those games when coaches lose their teams.

Kewlswim
10-13-2007, 03:19 PM
And we just had a punt blocked. The announcer on TV thinks we should just go for it on 4th down because our punting is so abysmal.

And we just fumbled the kickoff. This is unreal.

--Jason "is this bad coaching or just everything going wrong at the same time?" Evans

Hi Jason,

I NEVER root against Duke, ever. However, if the wheels were to completely come off the wagon as is the case today and that led to demise of our head coach, I might (and might is the operative word here) even silently not feel so bad about it. Remember, Jeff Tedford wasn't a household name before the Cal Bear's gave him a shot. There are good coaches out there who just need a shot--coaches who would consider Duke. Remember many of these men have huge egos they like to prove how good they are. No better place than Duke and a couple million in salary, if Bill Brill is correct about that figure to do that. The name of the guy escapes me, but he is currently the Offensive Coordinator for the Oregon Ducks. He, as far as I know, has never been given a shot as a head coach. Maybe he is the next Tedford? Furthermore, this idea that we need to find a coach for a long time. Balderdash. Lets just find a coach who will get us out of the cellar, ala Coach Spurrier. If he lasts four years great, if more better. This coach for life business is a thing of the past. Sort of like the good player who spends four years in school.

Kewl "maybe the winds of change are upon us" Swim

captmojo
10-13-2007, 03:47 PM
...and here's to never forgetting this game.:(

arnie
10-13-2007, 04:02 PM
I don't see how setting a goal of several wins next year is "foolish". I personally think not setting goals is foolish and hiding behind subjective statements of "we're making progress" doesn't help.

If you are happy with the team's progress, so be it, but I'm not and I will not ignore the said state of the program. If you wish to ban my posting because I'm not Pollyanna, you apparently have the right to do so.

Kewlswim
10-13-2007, 04:17 PM
I don't see how setting a goal of several wins next year is "foolish". I personally think not setting goals is foolish and hiding behind subjective statements of "we're making progress" doesn't help.

If you are happy with the team's progress, so be it, but I'm not and I will not ignore the said state of the program. If you wish to ban my posting because I'm not Pollyanna, you apparently have the right to do so.

Hi,

Though in the past a pathetic football record might have gone uncared about by the administration. I get the feeling new times are afoot. I feel that the University wants to be a part of the "big time" on many different levels. Of course, I could be wrong and it is business as usual. I think one or two more showings like the team had today and what kind of a chance Roof gets next year will be a moot point.

GO DUKE!

RelativeWays
10-13-2007, 04:20 PM
This was not a good loss at all, specially considering that ECU and UNC fared much better against VT (granted Clemson was almost as bad as we were). It gets depressing to see how far we are from being a contender in the ACC, we're the only team in the league that hasn't beat FSU, everyone else has....

OZZIE4DUKE
10-13-2007, 05:06 PM
We have no chance against them. They are better athletes, better coached, better conditioned. They have better fans. We don't belong on the same field as them.


Dang, I hate being right about something like this. We were pitiful today. Absolutely horrible in just about all aspects of the game. I didn't mind us running on the first play from scrimmage - after all, we did that last week against Wake - but to continue trying to run was abysmal. Lewis didn't have much time to throw, but then we were calling plays that took too long to run and receivers weren't getting open. We need to pass to open up the run, not the other way around. Poor play calling all day long. And yes, I think Asack should have played the entire 4th quarter (if not more), if only to get the feel of the game again.

Poor coaching, poor physical execution by the players. Worse than I expected and certainly worse than I hoped for. But I will cut Coach Roof and the team some slack and give him a mulligan on this one. But only one mulligan. We need to do better (I'm not saying win) when we return to the field in 2 weeks.

DU82
10-13-2007, 05:17 PM
Dang, I hate being right about something like this. We were pitiful today. Abosolutely horrible in just about all apsects of the game. I didn't mind us running on the first play from scimmage - after all, we did that last week against Wake - but to continue trying to run was abismal. Lewis didn't have much time to throw, but then we were calling plays that took too long to run and receivers weren't getting open. We need to pass to open up the run, not the other way around. Poor play calling all day long. And yes, I think Asack should have played the entire 4th quarter (if not more), if only to get the feel of the game again.

Poor coaching, poor physical execution by the players. Worse than I expected and certainly worse than I hoped for. But I will cut Coach Roof and the team some slack and give him a mulligan on this one. But only one mulligan. We need to do better (I'm not saying win) when we return to the field in 2 weeks.


Oz, you can't pass if you can't protect the quarterback, or get receivers open. On the plays where one happened, the other didn't. Their d-backs just did an excellent job of covering our guys this week. Running at least gave us some chance, plus ate up more clock to give our defense some rest.

Lewis sets the plays up slowly, so any holes created are gone by the time he hands off or is ready to pass. Asack, in his little time, was quicker in running the plays (this is after the snap, not before) but then again, it was against the second string, and is hard to compare right now.

Of course, if we can't cover passes any better, the defense is off the field quickly, too. Our zone is too soft, mainly because we can't cover quick receivers one-on-one right now. That one slant play over the middle for ten-fifteen yards killed us time after time.

Our kicking game is getting worse, not better, right now. The one decent kick in the second half only went for 35 yards. Bad punts (plus two fumbles on kickoffs) continually put the defense in bad position, and allows easy scores.

Most of these things take time, and experience (as well as talent, of course.) VT was simply faster and more talented today.

jimsumner
10-13-2007, 06:54 PM
First, Duke has a lot more than two first-class players; Riley, Oghobaase, Rey, Taulilli, Goldberg and others could play for anybody. But certainly Duke doesn't have as many as the competition.

Any plausible scenario in which Duke is competitive with VT starts with limiting the damage from special teams. This was Duke's focus all week in practice and the result was--quite frankly--absymal. Duke lost the field-position battle in a big way and gave Tech three scores. It just ballooned from there.

The biggest difference between Tech and Duke is speed. Pure, simple, speed. Duke has a handful of burners-Marshall, Drummer, Davis but Tech has dozens. This shows up most obviously on special teams but it factors into almost every aspect of the game. Tech can outrun its mistakes and turns other team's mistakes into big plays. Duke cannot outrun its mistakes and has a hard time exploiting other team's mistakes.

Plus, the offensive line just isn't up to snuff. I would have liked to have seen more downfield throws but when Duke did try to throw long, the Tech D was all over Lewis.

For the record, Sean Glennon played a heck of a game and deserves kudos. He stood in there and took some pretty good licks and completed passes on a number of occasions and this was a kid who was ripped by Tech fans earlier in the season. Also note that the late-hit-parade that many anticipated never materialized. It largely was a penalty-free game.

RelativeWays
10-13-2007, 08:09 PM
I bet Duke could average 3-4 wins a year with a competent kicking and punting game. Lord knows its costed Duke about 3-4 games a year.

Uncle Drew
10-13-2007, 08:16 PM
You're 100% correct Relative. And most seasons that has been a Duke football strong point! God knows in past year the punter and field goal kicker have been of more use than a QB or running back!

sandinmyshoes
10-13-2007, 09:34 PM
I am developing a phobia for vertically aligned footballs. :mad:

Highlander
10-13-2007, 11:02 PM
It is SO frustrating. Our only way to win this game is a good day from Lewis and the passing game, and we're not even giving it a shot.

We need to start throwing on first down.

Was at the game, and thought similar. However, it looked to me like VTech only had 6 guys in the box for much of the game. In that situation, you pretty much have to try running, right? They basically dared us to beat them with the run, and we couldn't do it.

I mean, if I were coaching a team playing a stud QB with stud WR's and no running game, that's how I would defend against them.

Bluedawg
10-14-2007, 08:24 AM
Originally Posted by firealleva
Jumbo,

You have repeatedly supported Roof though this extremely dismal period of Duke football. That is your prerogative to do so - but for those few fans that remain, many of us recognize that Roof does not have the ability (or resources) to bring the team to a competitive level within the ACC. Do you at least agree that if he fails to win several games in the ACC next year, his time should be up?


I've actually only started to get involved in football conversations over the last few weeks. I've stated my opinion -- Roof deserves to coach through Thad and VO's senior year. That gives him two more seasons. If h does nothing that year then, yes, he should go. But I hope it never comes to that point -- as we all should.

Meanwhile, as I watch this game today, I just can't see how "coaching" can be blamed over the far more glaring differences between these two teams.


I've been in his camp all year and I still support him. 2-3 years is not enough time to take a team, in the competitive shape Duke was in when he took over, and build a program. It takes time. the tam is in far better shape now then then.

I know y'all are looking for a "big name" coach to come but wake up. A big name coach won't come...not now. TR has moved this program in the right direction and given time he'll compete it. The reason Duke has not developed a solid program is that Historically they have dumped coaches far too quickly.

formerdukeathlete
10-14-2007, 09:54 AM
Oz, you can't pass if you can't protect the quarterback, or get receivers open. On the plays where one happened, the other didn't. Their d-backs just did an excellent job of covering our guys this week. Running at least gave us some chance, plus ate up more clock to give our defense some rest.

Lewis sets the plays up slowly, so any holes created are gone by the time he hands off or is ready to pass. Asack, in his little time, was quicker in running the plays (this is after the snap, not before) but then again, it was against the second string, and is hard to compare right now.

Of course, if we can't cover passes any better, the defense is off the field quickly, too. Our zone is too soft, mainly because we can't cover quick receivers one-on-one right now. That one slant play over the middle for ten-fifteen yards killed us time after time.

Our kicking game is getting worse, not better, right now. The one decent kick in the second half only went for 35 yards. Bad punts (plus two fumbles on kickoffs) continually put the defense in bad position, and allows easy scores.

Most of these things take time, and experience (as well as talent, of course.) VT was simply faster and more talented today.

After Duke played Miami there were 3 articles in the print edition of the Miami Herald about the game, one of which highlighted Lewis' Miami roots.

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/colleges/um/story/255588.html

Lewis is described by a Miami player who knew him from high school as a "pretty good player" and that miami coaches think he will be quite good by the time he is a senior.

Frachise QBs are good as soon as they hit the field - Dan Marino at Pitt; Doug Flutie at BC, etc. There is no wait until the senior, though there may be improvement, of course.

As you note, Lewis does set up slowly. Asack sets up more quickly. As Ozzie noted and suggested, I believe it would have been better to have give sack more pt in the 4th quarter.

What we needed to open up the offense on Saturday were some break away runs by our qb. Lewis had negative 17 rushing. In order for Asack to achieve this; however, he needs to be passing and handing off. He needs more than a few reps. Plays need to be tailored to his skills. Coaching can make a big difference I would submit in how well Asack is utilized and how well he does on the field. Lewis setting up slowly and moving slowly in and out of the pocket - coaching has less impact on addressing these issues.

jimsumner
10-14-2007, 12:05 PM
"Frachise QBs are good as soon as they hit the field - Dan Marino at Pitt; Doug Flutie at BC, etc. There is no wait until the senior, though there may be improvement, of course."

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Wouldn't this apply to Asack as well as Lewis? Lewis had marginally better freshman stats than Asack. I'm pretty sure none of Thad's supporters are comparing him to Dan Marino. But I am unaware of anyone who closely follows Duke football who would agree with your assertion that Asack offers a better chance for Duke to win than does Lewis.

And trust me. I know all seven people who still closely follow Duke football. :)

fan345678
10-14-2007, 01:22 PM
To judge the progress of this team based on yesterday's result, rather than on the entire season thus far, is folly.

VT was picked as the overwhelming preseason favorite in the conference, and while the VT offense has had a down year, yesterday was the first time that it had its entire #1 offensive line healthy. Also, the Clemson game is not a fair barometer for judging the VT pass defense. Clemson threw the ball 67 times because VT jumped out to a big early lead and was otherwise more committed to shutting down Clemson's great running backs. VT also has perhaps the best cornerback duo in the country.

If you haven't seen signs of competitiveness and improvement this year, you're being defeatist. Thad Lewis's body of work alone gives opposing defensive coordinators a lot of work to do, and Duke has a couple playmakers on D who are mismatches for most opposing offensive players in the conference. Heck, Oghobaase returned the favor this year by knocking VT's true freshman quarterback out of the game, and he did it cleanly and legally.

Whether or not Roof & Co. are the right staff is a fair question to ask, but if you believe the answer is based on "signs of improvement," and you say you haven't seen any, then you haven't been watching.

RepoMan
10-14-2007, 01:31 PM
I've actually only started to get involved in football conversations over the last few weeks. I've stated my opinion -- Roof deserves to coach through Thad and VO's senior year. That gives him two more seasons. If h does nothing that year then, yes, he should go. But I hope it never comes to that point -- as we all should.

Meanwhile, as I watch this game today, I just can't see how "coaching" can be blamed over the far more glaring differences between these two teams.

I think coaching makes a huge difference in college football. Miami and FSU continue to bring in top 10 recruiting classes year after year, but clearly their teams, nonetheless, have struggled the last few years. Virginia Tech's recruiting classes are not nearly as highly ranked, but they have played Miami even for over 10 years. I think coaching explains those results.

I don't really have an opinion on whether Roof should stay or go, though I think that those people who ask the question, "If, Roof goes, what then?" make a valid point. Still, consistently botched special teams play is a perfect area for coaching criticism. While its unrealistic to expect Duke's team to match well physically against the Miamis, FSUs, and even the Virginia Techs of the conference, its fair to expect the team to play smart, minimal mistake football, with consistently quality special teams play. And that's not happening.

YmoBeThere
10-14-2007, 02:55 PM
Most importantly*, of course, this weekend Tailgate returns.

It will be spectacular, especially with all the recent alumns in town.



*i.e. more important than the game itself. Yeah, I said it.

I noticed the "Tailgate" thing this weekend, i.e. young undergrads dressed up in costumes. This was/is a new phenomenon for me, either i missed it from '89-93 or it has started since I left. (Yeah, I'm feeling my age...) Can anyone fill us in?

Overall, after having attended the game, I just got the sense that the program has not made any progress at all. It felt the same as the games I went to in '92(Barry Wilson era), '98(Goldsmith), '01(Franks), '04(Roof). Hardly compared to my first view of Duke football which was '89 under Spurrier(I was certainly lucky to be there then). Obviously, this is anecdotal/emotional but the records haven't been much different either.

I would just like to challenge a notion that seem to be accepted as fact.
Your program has to lose more games while it is "rebuilding"
We went from 4 to 2 to 1 to 0 to 1 so far this year. Could this just be a sign of a bad coach? (See Bill Callahan at Nebraska, Charlie Weis at Notre Dame). I don't have a good counterexample, right now all of can think of is Vanderbilt which flatlined for a couple of years before showing improvement. (In a much tougher conference, IMHO).

Bluedawg
10-14-2007, 03:48 PM
interesting words from Oghobaase (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/736570.html)


"We've been doing pretty good as a ball team fighting, fighting, fighting," said defensive tackle Vince Oghobaase, who made one of Duke's four sacks. "But this week, we didn't fight.

jimsumner
10-14-2007, 03:58 PM
FWIW, Ted Roof disputed VO's contention. Roof said he saw lots of mistakes but no quit.

formerdukeathlete
10-14-2007, 04:14 PM
"Frachise QBs are good as soon as they hit the field - Dan Marino at Pitt; Doug Flutie at BC, etc. There is no wait until the senior, though there may be improvement, of course."

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Wouldn't this apply to Asack as well as Lewis? Lewis had marginally better freshman stats than Asack. I'm pretty sure none of Thad's supporters are comparing him to Dan Marino. But I am unaware of anyone who closely follows Duke football who would agree with your assertion that Asack offers a better chance for Duke to win than does Lewis.

And trust me. I know all seven people who still closely follow Duke football. :)

I am not sold on the premise that Lewis offers a better chance of winning. As Du 82 points out, Lewis is slow to set up the plays, holes get filled and too often we are 3 and done. The defense stays on the field too long. Too many negative yards carries - he is a slow runner. The fumbles. He is a better passer than Asack. We have't worked a game plan around Asack. I do not have complete confidence in our coaching staff's assessments and certainly not with respect to gameday coaching.

Where I come out - Lewis' strength is his throwing arm. Asack's throwing is improving. Lewis' weakness is his mobility and slowness after the snap. He is not getting any faster out there. What I would do - give Asack a half and before Duke falls behind.

Wander
10-14-2007, 04:19 PM
I noticed the "Tailgate" thing this weekend, i.e. young undergrads dressed up in costumes. This was/is a new phenomenon for me, either i missed it from '89-93 or it has started since I left. (Yeah, I'm feeling my age...) Can anyone fill us in?

Thanks for putting the word tailgate in quotation marks... because it's pathetic and absolutely nothing like a real tailgate.

OZZIE4DUKE
10-14-2007, 06:59 PM
Thanks for putting the word tailgate in quotation marks... because it's pathetic and absolutely nothing like a real tailgate.

The Iron Dukes threw their annual homecoming tailgate for members and their guests. It is a quality event, well attended, with lots of free food, beer (Bud Light!) and wine. I only wish the marching band and cheerleaders were there for more than 10 minutes.

Wander
10-14-2007, 07:37 PM
The Iron Dukes threw their annual homecoming tailgate for members and their guests. It is a quality event, well attended, with lots of free food, beer (Bud Light!) and wine. I only wish the marching band and cheerleaders were there for more than 10 minutes.

Cool. I was just talking about the undergrad one, can't really speak for the others.

Jumbo
10-14-2007, 09:11 PM
I am not sold on the premise that Lewis offers a better chance of winning. As Du 82 points out, Lewis is slow to set up the plays, holes get filled and too often we are 3 and done. The defense stays on the field too long. Too many negative yards carries - he is a slow runner. The fumbles. He is a better passer than Asack. We have't worked a game plan around Asack. I do not have complete confidence in our coaching staff's assessments and certainly not with respect to gameday coaching.

Where I come out - Lewis' strength is his throwing arm. Asack's throwing is improving. Lewis' weakness is his mobility and slowness after the snap. He is not getting any faster out there. What I would do - give Asack a half and before Duke falls behind.

Since when have you been attending practices?

throatybeard
10-14-2007, 10:33 PM
Ahh, young love.

This takes me back to FDA's crush on Curt Dukes.

formerdukeathlete
10-15-2007, 08:30 AM
Ahh, young love.

This takes me back to FDA's crush on Curt Dukes.

Roof described Dukes as having "it." He has used the same regarding Lewis.

Dukes was underutilized as a potential qb by Duke. In contrast to Lewis, Dukes set up plays very quickly and was a threat running the ball. What might have happened had Dukes transferred to Navy rather than Duke? Well, I think he would have made an impact in an offense better suited to his talents. Did Dukes make it to med school, anyone know?

I hope Asack also does not finish his career as an underutilized talent.

I think all would agree that we have a better running game, a chance for a better running game (faster execution), both from our running backs and qb, when Asack is in there.

does the name Ben Patrick mean anything to you? And we can go on down the list of good players who transferred early either because they were underutilized and had lost faith in the coaching, or because we were losing with inadequate game plans and they had lost faith in the coaching.

Because of this and a number of other data points, including, certainly, watching game day performances, I believe Asack should get more pt. If he does, I bet we see less of the qb tripping up, getting sacked, missing openings, fewer fumbles, and maybe fewer inteceptions. This can translate into a better chance of winning.

jlear
10-15-2007, 10:40 AM
FWIW, Ted Roof disputed VO's contention. Roof said he saw lots of mistakes but no quit.

That is funny, we left the game with about 5 minutes to go when it was clear to us and to the parents of players sitting around us that the coaching staff had given up and was just trying to run the clock out. Too many running plays in the 4th quarter when we needed scores in a hurry.

whereinthehellami
10-15-2007, 02:22 PM
Bud Foster, VT's defensive coordinator was baiting Duke to throw all game knowing that he had better speed downfield (secondary). Once Foster makes you one dimensional, you're done. I think Roof should have come out and attacked VT thru the air from the get go. All chips in so to speak. But I think that would have ended very badly for Duke anyways. So I think Roof played VT the way you had to and hope for a letdown from them (after Clemson). Hang in the game till the end (playing conservatively) and get lucky at the very end with a TO to scrape out the W. But VT was up for the game and Duke didn't have much a chance.

Also Beamer speacilizes in special teams (coaching them himself) and once he smells blood, he gets agressive and things can go south in a hurry for the other team. That plays in the player's heads. Beamer plays his best guys on special teams, always looking for the other team's worst special team's player to exploit. Alot of those guys are big, fast, aggressive, and well-coached. Thats a tough mix.

I like Roof and think Duke has to settle on him and fix the more pressing issues. Roof has the talent going in the right direction and can coach, as they have been in most games this year (they really shouldn't be in these games). The Coach isn't the problem. Its the talent. And the talent won't come unless things change from the adminstration. I think Duke first needs to decide where they want the football team to go. Duke needs better facilities, more fan support, and a comittment from the adminstration. Get that squared away and the talent will come.

OldPhiKap
10-15-2007, 02:35 PM
I like Roof and think Duke has to settle on him and fix the more pressing issues. Roof has the talent going in the right direction and can coach, as they have been in most games this year (they really shouldn't be in these games). The Coach isn't the problem. Its the talent. And the talent won't come unless things change from the adminstration. I think Duke first needs to decide where they want the football team to go. Duke needs better facilities, more fan support, and a comittment from the adminstration. Get that squared away and the talent will come.


BINGO!

Roof has had us competitive in all but two games this year, which (as sad as that sounds) is an improvement. Obviously, Saturday was a lousy game and was disappointing. But I think Roof has us moving in the right direction and his kids are committed. I wish the administration and fans were as committed.

Edit to add: I do not mean to suggest that the kids we have are not talented. The biggest difference is that, if you look at a top-25 program, they are three deep at every position. We are not there yet. But I'm proud of our kids going out to represent us and hope we can get the administation to INVEST in improvement.

throatybeard
10-16-2007, 09:47 AM
That is funny, we left the game with about 5 minutes to go when it was clear to us and to the parents of players sitting around us that the coaching staff had given up and was just trying to run the clock out. Too many running plays in the 4th quarter when we needed scores in a hurry.

I'll take your word for it since I wasn't there, but even if that's the case, what is Roof supposed to say at the press conference? "Yeah Frank, I have to say we gave up."

OZZIE4DUKE
10-16-2007, 02:14 PM
I'll take your word for it since I wasn't there, but even if that's the case, what is Roof supposed to say at the press conference? "Yeah Frank, I have to say we gave up."


Originally Posted by jlear:
That is funny, we left the game with about 5 minutes to go when it was clear to us and to the parents of players sitting around us that the coaching staff had given up and was just trying to run the clock out. Too many running plays in the 4th quarter when we needed scores in a hurry.

Nobody quit. Nobody gave up and stopped trying. Certainly not the players who were playing. I think that the coaching staff realized that while winning the game wasn't there to be had, much could be gained by going back to the game plan and working on what was supposed to work to begin with, using the game time as instructional time. Against VT's second and third string the running game sort of worked.

As I said in my original post, I'll give the coaches a mulligan on this game and look for better outings in the weeks to come.

RelativeWays
10-16-2007, 02:48 PM
What I say next might be viewed as heretical, but I would almost rather Duke beat FSU this weekend than UNC in November. We're the only ACC team that hasn't done that yet and that is a streak I would like to end. I don't know how much longerFSU is going to be "vulnerable" but this is one of our better chances.

Highlander
10-16-2007, 03:25 PM
What I say next might be viewed as heretical, but I would almost rather Duke beat FSU this weekend than UNC in November. We're the only ACC team that hasn't done that yet and that is a streak I would like to end. I don't know how much longerFSU is going to be "vulnerable" but this is one of our better chances.

Off the top of my head, both GTech and VTech are winless against the Seminoles as well as us. GTech last played FSU in 2003 and lost 14-13. VTech played them two years ago and lost in the ACC Championship. I think Beamer is 0-5 vs. Bowden actually.

jimsumner
10-16-2007, 04:08 PM
"What I say next might be viewed as heretical, but I would almost rather Duke beat FSU this weekend than UNC in November."

Just so there's no confusion, Duke doesn't actually play FSU or anybody else this weekend. Open date. Duke at FSU 10-27.

Highlander
10-16-2007, 04:33 PM
I, Highlander, give my 100% guarantee that FSU has absolutely NO CHANCE at beating Duke this Saturday (10/20) in Football.

Take it to the bank :)

Sorry RelativeWays... Couldn't resist.

jlear
10-16-2007, 04:34 PM
Nobody quit. Nobody gave up and stopped trying. Certainly not the players who were playing. I think that the coaching staff realized that while winning the game wasn't there to be had, much could be gained by going back to the game plan and working on what was supposed to work to begin with, using the game time as instructional time. Against VT's second and third string the running game sort of worked.

As I said in my original post, I'll give the coaches a mulligan on this game and look for better outings in the weeks to come.

At the game, seeing all those running plays made me feel like the coaches had packed it in. I went to the stats to prove that was the case, but I found that i was wrong. Usually a team passes much more when behind, but it was not making much difference with 3.2 yards per pass attempt and 2.8 yards per carry. The passing numbers looked better than that on the surface but once you take sacks and throw them in the passing pile the numbers even out. Not much you can do when you are getting 3 yards per play and VT is getting 6 yards per play. I know everyone wants to win and I will continue to support the team.

throatybeard
10-16-2007, 04:41 PM
Speaking of VT, today is the 6-month anniversary of the shooting tragedy.

whereinthehellami
10-16-2007, 04:53 PM
Off the top of my head, both GTech and VTech are winless against the Seminoles as well as us. GTech last played FSU in 2003 and lost 14-13. VTech played them two years ago and lost in the ACC Championship. I think Beamer is 0-5 vs. Bowden actually.


Good call. Bobby Bowden has had Beamer's number. This is the year for the Hokies. They have them in a down year at home. Whats funny with collge football is that Beamer can't beat Bobby Bowden but crushes his son Terry Bowden at Clemson, whio has been beating his father the last couple of years. I think Beamer sees Bobby Bowden as too much of a mentor.