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nmduke2001
09-23-2016, 10:48 AM
I don't mean to be a hater, but does the success of the Patriots without Brady as the starting QB reduce Brady's stature as an all-time great QB? I'd argue yes. For instance, take the Cowboys without Tony Romo and compare them to the Patriots without Brady. For the most part, the Cowboys have been lost without Romo while the Patriots just keep winning. I'd also remind you that Matt Cassel had a very good record as a starter with NE when Brady was hurt and not so much once he left (though I do think at least on of those years in KC was pretty good).

Wander
09-23-2016, 10:55 AM
I've started to think about this too. Another point of comparison is what happened to the Colts the year Peyton got injured. Still, you don't want to punish Brady for having a great coach. I really have no idea how to come to a conclusion without seeing Brady on another team.

El_Diablo
09-23-2016, 11:03 AM
I don't mean to be a hater, but does the success of the Patriots without Brady as the starting QB reduce Brady's stature as an all-time great QB?

Not a chance. He will go down as one of the greatest QBs of all time. The fact that the Patriots also won a few regular season games without him will be largely, if not entirely, forgotten (and does not have much bearing on what Brady meant to the team in prior years).

DUKIECB
09-23-2016, 12:01 PM
I don't think it diminishes Brady's stature as one of the greatest of all time but I think it does elevate Belichick's status to even greater heights. I can't stand the guy but you cannot deny that he is a football genius and probably one of the greatest coaches of all time in the NFL if not in all of sports.

JasonEvans
09-23-2016, 12:13 PM
As I wrote in the Deflategate thread...


Would you rather have Tom Brady with just an average coach or Bill Bellicheck with just an average QB? I think the conventional wisdom would be to take the player, not the coach. But I gotta tell you, I am starting to wonder...

nmduke2001
09-23-2016, 01:43 PM
As I wrote in the Deflategate thread...

Would you rather have Tom Brady with just an average coach or Bill Bellicheck with just an average QB? I think the conventional wisdom would be to take the player, not the coach. But I gotta tell you, I am starting to wonder...

Tom Brady has a career win percentage of 76.4%. If you give Cassel the entire season of 2008 (Brady was hurt on the first quarter of the first game) the Patriots are 14 and 5 without him for win percentage of 73.7% (I think that's right. I'm going by memory). Pretty darn close.

duke79
09-23-2016, 04:26 PM
Tom Brady has a career win percentage of 76.4%. If you give Cassel the entire season of 2008 (Brady was hurt on the first quarter of the first game) the Patriots are 14 and 5 without him for win percentage of 73.7% (I think that's right. I'm going by memory). Pretty darn close.

Not to diss Tom Brady (I think he is a great QB) but I could play QB for the Pats and they'd win most of their games.

elvis14
09-24-2016, 12:05 PM
The Pats have a great system that enables them to win lots of games. Having Brady allows them to take it to the next level. To go from winning games to winning championships (or at the very least consistently contending for championships).

I guess it's kind of like saying 'does the success of Duke basketball without Grant Hill starting reduce Hill's stature as an all time great player?' That should take the Patriot hate out of the equation and put this question to bed.

YmoBeThere
09-25-2016, 04:09 PM
Not to diss Tom Brady (I think he is a great QB) but I could play QB for the Pats and they'd win most of their games.

I'd love to see this hypothesis tested...

duke79
09-25-2016, 08:26 PM
I'd love to see this hypothesis tested...

LOL, yea, definitely a small amount of hyperbole here. The reality is ....... I'd be dead after the very first play !

duke79
09-25-2016, 08:28 PM
The New York Times reported yesterday (Saturday) that the Patriots had given Sean Renfree a workout. All three of their regular QB's are injured or suspended.

nmduke2001
09-26-2016, 10:54 AM
I guess it's kind of like saying 'does the success of Duke basketball without Grant Hill starting reduce Hill's stature as an all time great player?' That should take the Patriot hate out of the equation and put this question to bed.

Not really apples to apples.

The year after Grant left, Duke went 13-18. Coach K missed a lot of that season as well. The next year, Duke went 18-13. So it did take a few years to get back on track.

elvis14
09-26-2016, 11:00 AM
Not really apples to apples.

The year after Grant left, Duke went 13-18. Coach K missed a lot of that season as well. The next year, Duke went 18-13. So it did take a few years to get back on track.

Replace Grant's name with Johnny or Christian then.

budwom
09-26-2016, 11:06 AM
To me, the most interesting thing will be how Belichek deals with Brady if and when he goes into a decline (no sign yet).

One of many reasons the Pats are so go (and I'm neutral on them personally) is that Bill has ZERO sentimentality...you can help him
win a Super Bowl one year, but if you lose a step, you could be gone the next...he's done this frequently...not gonna give a
guy a big future deal as a reward for the past...

I would imagine Brady would want to go out a winner...but he has made noise about playing quite a few more years....I don't
see Bill keeping him around (at his salary) if he declines appreciably. (Though P. Manning did show you can decline, lose arm strength, still
win a Super Bowl).

elvis14
09-26-2016, 11:19 AM
To me, the most interesting thing will be how Belichek deals with Brady if and when he goes into a decline (no sign yet).

One of many reasons the Pats are so go (and I'm neutral on them personally) is that Bill has ZERO sentimentality...you can help him
win a Super Bowl one year, but if you lose a step, you could be gone the next...he's done this frequently...not gonna give a
guy a big future deal as a reward for the past...

I would imagine Brady would want to go out a winner...but he has made noise about playing quite a few more years...I don't
see Bill keeping him around (at his salary) if he declines appreciably. (Though P. Manning did show you can decline, lose arm strength, still
win a Super Bowl).

That's a really good point. Will Bill treat Tom any better than he has other aging veterans? Will Tom play for a discount when he gets older to keep playing for Bill? It's going to be interesting to see now that plays out.

Heck, I wish my team would have enough success to keep a coach around long enough for internet discussions like this to even happen!

Indoor66
09-26-2016, 01:25 PM
Football is a business. When you don't or can't perform you are gone. That's how it works out in the real world.

El_Diablo
10-07-2016, 02:52 PM
I don't mean to be a hater, but does the success of the Patriots without Brady as the starting QB reduce Brady's stature as an all-time great QB? I'd argue yes. For instance, take the Cowboys without Tony Romo and compare them to the Patriots without Brady. For the most part, the Cowboys have been lost without Romo while the Patriots just keep winning. I'd also remind you that Matt Cassel had a very good record as a starter with NE when Brady was hurt and not so much once he left (though I do think at least on of those years in KC was pretty good).

The Patriots were blanked by the Bills last weekend. So the Patriots went 3-1 against a schedule of teams that are collectively 8-9 (or 7-6 if you toss out the games against the Patriots).