Albany Game Canceled (Protest over HB2)

[ipatent]

collegespun.com/acc/duke/duke-albany-2016-basketball-game-cancelled-over-hb2-concerns

Could this cost them an all time wins record next year?

[sagegrouse]

collegespun.com/acc/duke/duke-albany-2016-basketball-game-cancelled-over-hb2-concerns

Could this cost them an all time wins record next year?

From the article:


From Syracuse.com:


However, in March of 2016, the North Carolina General Assembly passed House Bill 2, which is a law that stipulates that transgender people must use the bathroom corresponding with their birth gender while taking away the ability of employees to sue their employers in state court for discrimination or wrongful termination.

After the law was passed, Gov. Cuomo responded with an executive order, banning any state-sponsored, non-essential travel to North Carolina.

Albany, as a member school in the State University of New York (SUNY) system, is subject to Cuomo’s travel ban.Duke will likely have little issue filling the spot on the schedule, but it is very interesting to see the controversial law have a tangible impact on one of the state’s biggest teams.

[bob blue devil]

collegespun.com/acc/duke/duke-albany-2016-basketball-game-cancelled-over-hb2-concerns

Could this cost them an all time wins record next year?

duke could make a bit of a political statement by traveling to albany.

[buddy]

Interjecting politics into college athletics will not end well. Feel sorry for the Albany players who will miss the chance to play in Cameron. And why wait until now to cancel? The governor's directive has been in place for 4 months. Didn't the folks at Albany get the memo?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Interjecting politics into college athletics will not end well. Feel sorry for the Albany players who will miss the chance to play in Cameron. And why wait until now to cancel? The governor's directive has been in place for 4 months. Didn't the folks at Albany get the memo?

Sometimes athletes are a great point of reference.

"LeBron And Friends Open ESPYs With A Speech You Need To Hear" - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/lebron-james-espys-chris-paul-dwyane-wade-carmelo-anthony-full-video_us_5786d749e4b03fc3ee4f41d7?section=

[fan345678]

Pathetic. Why can't they fly to Lynchburg, fill up with gas and grab some snacks in Danville, go straight to Cameron, and then stop to spend a few bucks again once they're back into Virginia? Were we going to charge them for parking?

[duke4ever19]

I could maybe, and I mean maybe, get the point if SUNY Albany was playing a public university like uNC, but Duke is a private school! And not only that, is a world-class institution. Duke is international in it's brand. It brings in students from all over the world.

Why try and send a message to North Carolina by canceling a game against a private school?

And without taking sides, the whole bathroom thing is a hot-button issue over the whole country at the moment. It isn't fair to those bball players for the governor to treat it as though Duke is the last bastion of black-white segregation from decades and decades ago. I can't imagine how those kids feel knowing that they can't tell their kids they got to play a top-ranked Duke team under the legendary Coach K at Cameron Indoor Stadium. Politics is the worst.

[OldPhiKap]

Is this what Cuomo intended and contemplated by his ban? Probably not.
Is it what the kids at Albany want? Likely not.
Is NY within its right to refuse to spend its tax dollars in a state for political reasons? Sure.

Putting aside the policy question of whether NY's position is right or wrong, I applaud them sticking up for what they believe.

And given that the NBA may pull the all-star game in February, this is the least of NC's concerns.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I will express my opinion at the ballot box in November.

[WakeDevil]

"They" didn't do anything. The self-righteous governor did.

[sagegrouse]

"They" didn't do anything. The self-righteous governor did.

Which one?

[AustinDevil]

I would like to comment that the term "Bathroom Law" is not politically neutral, and I question its use for this thread title.

[Troublemaker]

collegespun.com/acc/duke/duke-albany-2016-basketball-game-cancelled-over-hb2-concerns

Could this cost them an all time wins record next year?

Only if Duke finishes 38-1. 39-0 would still be the record.


Interjecting politics into college athletics will not end well. Feel sorry for the Albany players who will miss the chance to play in Cameron. And why wait until now to cancel? The governor's directive has been in place for 4 months. Didn't the folks at Albany get the memo?

I'm sure Albany alerted Duke awhile ago. We the fans are just hearing about it today because Duke announced its non-conference schedule today.


I could maybe, and I mean maybe, get the point if SUNY Albany was playing a public university like uNC, but Duke is a private school! And not only that, is a world-class institution. Duke is international in it's brand. It brings in students from all over the world.

Why try and send a message to North Carolina by canceling a game against a private school?

And without taking sides, the whole bathroom thing is a hot-button issue over the whole country at the moment. It isn't fair to those bball players for the governor to treat it as though Duke is the last bastion of black-white segregation from decades and decades ago. I can't imagine how those kids feel knowing that they can't tell their kids they got to play a top-ranked Duke team under the legendary Coach K at Cameron Indoor Stadium. Politics is the worst.

As OPK mentioned above, I doubt Duke was targeted specifically. We just happen to be located in NC.


duke could make a bit of a political statement by traveling to albany.

Logistically, not a great idea to travel for the 2nd game of a back-to-back. Contractually, probably not even up to Duke, as the tournament organizers will arrange the replacement opponent. Finally, generally, it's probably a better idea to stay apolitical since there are bound to be differences of opinion about HB2 among members of the athletic department, coaches, players, managers, training staff, etc.

[Furniture]

I could maybe, and I mean maybe, get the point if SUNY Albany was playing a public university like uNC, but Duke is a private school! And not only that, is a world-class institution. Duke is international in it's brand. It brings in students from all over the world.

Why try and send a message to North Carolina by canceling a game against a private school?

And without taking sides, the whole bathroom thing is a hot-button issue over the whole country at the moment. It isn't fair to those bball players for the governor to treat it as though Duke is the last bastion of black-white segregation from decades and decades ago. I can't imagine how those kids feel knowing that they can't tell their kids they got to play a top-ranked Duke team under the legendary Coach K at Cameron Indoor Stadium. Politics is the worst.

Duke might be a private school but doesn't it have its roots well and truly woven into North carolina. I thought it was founded by two North Carolina gentlemen who made their money from North Carolina tabacoo. Didnt one of them study at UNC?
Anyway, poking aside, I will also be protesting with my vote against all this crap in November.

[Scorp4me]

There are going to be a lot of games canceled in a lot of states if they decide to interject politics into sports. NC is hardly the only state on this side of the issue...and this is only one of many hot topic issues.

[OldPhiKap]

Which one?

'You must spread . . . ."

[Ultrarunner]

Interjecting politics into college athletics will not end well. Feel sorry for the Albany players who will miss the chance to play in Cameron. And why wait until now to cancel? The governor's directive has been in place for 4 months. Didn't the folks at Albany get the memo?

A cynic might say that they got the memo - and allowed things to proceed to force the issue.

It's a shame for the players as it's a once-in-a-lifetime event for them.

[SilkyJ]

Interjecting politics into college athletics will not end well. Feel sorry for the Albany players who will miss the chance to play in Cameron. And why wait until now to cancel? The governor's directive has been in place for 4 months. Didn't the folks at Albany get the memo?

Its not clear when they cancelled. From what I can tell, the press release came out and there was a TBA in place for Nov 12th. The release even said a "yet to be named team" on the 12th when naming the teams.

And the DukeBluePlanet instagram feed posted a photo of the schedule yesterday with Marist already lined into the slot. Somewhat ironically, they are also from NY.


Pathetic. Why can't they fly to Lynchburg, fill up with gas and grab some snacks in Danville, go straight to Cameron, and then stop to spend a few bucks again once they're back into Virginia? Were we going to charge them for parking?

How does driving vs flying to the state fix the problem of not travelling there?

[gam7]

Interjecting politics into college athletics will not end well. Feel sorry for the Albany players who will miss the chance to play in Cameron. And why wait until now to cancel? The governor's directive has been in place for 4 months. Didn't the folks at Albany get the memo?

My guess is that Duke did not just find out about this; only we just found out about it. This whole thing is complicated by the fact that there is a third party (The Tip Off Classic) that may have the biggest interest here of anyone. I think the easy solution is to just swap Albany with either Brown or Marist. This would be inconvenient for either of them because they'd have to play back-to-back road games, but it is do-able. If New York is saying that Albany is pulling out of the tourney altogether on the basis that NY doesn't want to be involved with a tournament that plays games in NC (I dont think they are saying this), this would be a tougher fix.

[OldPhiKap]

The US boycotted the Olympics in '80 over politics.

The USSR re-boycotted in '84.

This ain't new.

[DukeTrinity11]

For what its worth, this is the first story that popped up on my Facebook news feed when I logged in, its crazy how fast news spreads now a days.

Are Wake and UNC hosting any NY public basketball teams this year that this law would ban as well?

[Reisen]

This sucks. My brother-in-law is an Albany alumnus, and a huge Duke fan. I was planning on taking him to the game.

Politics aside, this has only negative impacts (on a small group of people, the Albany team and fans being a large part of that group).

[Bluedog]

The other thing that is somewhat ironic about this is Duke, as a private institution, has gender neutral bathrooms on campus. They are not subject to following the law and instead have made several public statements (with words and actions) opposing it. But Duke certainly is located in the state of North Carolina, so if you can't travel there for free...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Politics aside, this has only negative impacts (on a small group of people, the Albany team and fans being a large part of that group).

Well, unless you believe that this sort of statement or protest can on some level change policy or public opinion. I would wager that if (big if) the players agree with the NC travel ban and hope to overturn HB2 that they would not only consider that a "positive impact," but one worth the sacrifice of playing in Cameron.

Let's be honest, playing a game at Duke is special and all, but if you were protesting something you didn't believe in, the chance to shake K's hand post-game shouldn't sway your plan.

**Disclaimer - yes, it is a law in NY passed by people who are not on the Albany basketball team in response to a law in NC passed by people not on the Duke basketball team. That doesn't change the fact that precisely headlines like this and attention like this were the intent of the ban on sporting events in NC.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

They sure like banning things up there, its like a prison colony with all these bans. Personally I think this is hilarious. Not sure why, but I keep laughing on the inside every time I think about it.

[Troublemaker]

This sucks. My brother-in-law is an Albany alumnus, and a huge Duke fan. I was planning on taking him to the game.

Politics aside, this has only negative impacts (on a small group of people, the Albany team and fans being a large part of that group).

The Crazies may be part of that group, too, as Albany has a player named Dallas Ennema on the roster.

Expelling Ennema and his team from this game and depriving the Crazies of this opportunity ought to wreck them.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I could maybe, and I mean maybe, get the point if SUNY Albany was playing a public university like uNC, but Duke is a private school! And not only that, is a world-class institution. Duke is international in it's brand. It brings in students from all over the world.

Why try and send a message to North Carolina by canceling a game against a private school?

And without taking sides, the whole bathroom thing is a hot-button issue over the whole country at the moment. It isn't fair to those bball players for the governor to treat it as though Duke is the last bastion of black-white segregation from decades and decades ago. I can't imagine how those kids feel knowing that they can't tell their kids they got to play a top-ranked Duke team under the legendary Coach K at Cameron Indoor Stadium. Politics is the worst.

Not saying whether this is right or wrong, but Duke is one of the largest private employers in the state. By exerting direct pressure against such an employer, that employer might in turn exert pressure against the state to change the law. The CEOs of most of the largest companies in North Carolina signed a letter to the governor expressing their displeasure with the law, and I know that some have eliminated expansion plans in the state. One could argue about taking a stand on this law vs. other laws in other states that aren't 100% popular (no games in states where you can't buy beer on Sunday!) but this seems to be the one that caught people's attention.

[sagegrouse]

Not saying whether this is right or wrong, but Duke is one of the largest private employers in the state. By exerting direct pressure against such an employer, that employer might in turn exert pressure against the state to change the law. The CEOs of most of the largest companies in North Carolina signed a letter to the governor expressing their displeasure with the law, and I know that some have eliminated expansion plans in the state. One could argue about taking a stand on this law vs. other laws in other states that aren't 100% popular (no games in states where you can't buy beer on Sunday!) but this seems to be the one that caught people's attention.

The Duke web site lists 36,004 employees, virtually all in the state of NC, I believe. Excluding all the Duke Health employees (there are Duke-owned hospitals throughout the state), the "campus employees" number 8,380. In addition, there 14,950 students. Combining the two brings the total "Duke population" to 50,954.

[Scorp4me]

Anti-discrimination >sports. I buy into that completely.

Power to Albany. I know Duke - as a private institution - doesn't and shouldn't follow this ridiculous HB2 law. But Albany is trying to make a point, and given the displeasure on DBR, that point is clearly working.

We get to choose to be whatever we want these days, choose which laws to follow and which ones we don't. Albany could have just ignored the law or failing that choose that Duke isn't in NC. I mean really, when does reality factor into life these days.

[ChillinDuke]

They sure like banning things up there, its like a prison colony with all these bans. Personally I think this is hilarious. Not sure why, but I keep laughing on the inside every time I think about it.

NY banned it in response to a ban in NC.

Even more fodder for the hilarity.

At this rate, pretty soon we'll all have to go to Canada just to "use the facilities."

Back on topic, if this was part of a preseason Tourney, aren't most teams committed to one by now? I remember last year (or the year before?) Duke was late to commit and got into the Preseason NIT, I believe. Are we past that point in the timeline for this year? I presume there wouldn't be many options out there? But maybe it's still early?

- Chillin

[OldPhiKap]

We get to choose to be whatever we want these days, choose which laws to follow and which ones we don't. Albany could have just ignored the law or failing that choose that Duke isn't in NC. I mean really, when does reality factor into life these days.

I'm not sure that Albany had that choice. If the governor banned unnecessary travel expenses in NC, Albany is a state school and therefore any monies spent are NY tax dollars.

Not saying I agree with it, but I see why Albany may not have had a choice. If the governor of NC said that no tax dollars could be spent in NY, Duke could play there but UNCheat could not.

I trust that Duke will be able to fill the spot without much trouble, so really no impact on us.

It is unfortunate for the Albany kids and their fans. As long as NC decides it's gonna stick with this law, this is the price. Whether that is an acceptable price or not is, of course, a policy decision well beyond the allowable limits of DBR.

The NBA is threatening to pull the NBA All-Star game that is supposed to be in Charlotte in February IIRC. That is what's gonna make the rubber hit the road. Plenty of cities would be glad to host, and unlike a Superbowl I would think it would not be a huge logistical problem to just go to another arena.

[ChillinDuke]

How does driving vs flying to the state fix the problem of not travelling there?

I think the OP was just proposing a way to get around the "unnecessary travel expenses in NC" mandate by having the Albany team incur all expenses in Virginia.

Which is kinda funny.

- Chillin

[BD80]

The Crazies may be part of that group, too, as Albany has a player named Dallas Ennema on the roster.

Expelling Ennema and his team from this game and depriving the Crazies of this opportunity ought to wreck them.

If there was ever an individual who NEEDED a bathroom law ...


... At this rate, pretty soon we'll all have to go to Canada just to "use the facilities." ...

Nature has a way discriminating, pine trees with low branches are not recommended for those who prefer to squat ...


I'm not sure that Albany had that choice. If the governor banned unnecessary travel expenses in NC, ...

Kinda begs a question, what expenses in NC HAS the Gov (or his office) deemed "necessary?" Could be a humorous (and embarrassing) comparison.

[devildeac]

The Crazies may be part of that group, too, as Albany has a player named Dallas Ennema on the roster.

Expelling Ennema and his team from this game and depriving the Crazies of this opportunity ought to wreck them.

This thread is proving quite the cathartic for us.

[OldPhiKap]

I don't think that Albany backing out will impact the State of North Carolina at all. We will get a replacement game, and that team will spend whatever Albany would have in hotel, food, etc.

The only real financial hit, oddly enough, may be that Albany doesn't get money for coming down to play us (I assume we pay for some of these teams, like football does, but don't know). If so, the financial hit is really in NY not NC.

[JasonEvans]

Folks,

I would ask that everyone remember the ban on partisan political talk on the DBR. If you want to talk about the game being cancelled, that is fine but do not get into a policy debate over the merits of the law or the politicians in NY or NC who are reacting to it.

-Jason "thanks!" Evans

[Reilly]

... if you were protesting something you didn't believe in, the chance to shake K's hand post-game shouldn't sway your plan ...

Maybe it would be a more difficult quandary if you were the best Albany player who played with a lot of effort and who would have been in line to get not just the handshake but the post-game heart-tap?

[Reilly]

... Albany is a state school and therefore any monies spent are NY tax dollars ...

Maybe Albany's sports program is not big enough; don't some state schools peddle the fiction that their sports programs are privately funded and not spending state dollars (using instead donations, tv revenue, etc..)? Think some trot that fiction out when handing the coach a big raise ...

[Lar77]

Maybe Albany's sports program is not big enough; don't some state schools peddle the fiction that their sports programs are privately funded and not spending state dollars (using instead donations, tv revenue, etc..)? Think some trot that fiction out when handing the coach a big raise ...

Like the school down the road spending millions on lawyers and PR to protect its sports' fiction?

[buddy]

Folks,

I would ask that everyone remember the ban on partisan political talk on the DBR. If you want to talk about the game being cancelled, that is fine but do not get into a policy debate over the merits of the law or the politicians in NY or NC who are reacting to it.

-Jason "thanks!" Evans

This is just silly. Close the thread. The cancellation is political (and partisan). You cannot discuss the cancellation without talking politics. Has Cuomo cancelled travel Arab nations that hang or imprison gays? Didn't think so.

[OldPhiKap]

This is just silly. Close the thread. The cancellation is political (and partisan). You cannot discuss the cancellation without talking politics. Has Cuomo cancelled travel Arab nations that hang or imprison gays? Didn't think so.

It seems to me that we have talked about it for two pages in an appropriate manner, one or two posts aside (I am only aware of one being removed, and that was cross-posted with Jason's request).

[FerryFor50]

It seems to me that we have talked about it for two pages in an appropriate manner, one or two posts aside (I am only aware of one being removed, and that was cross-posted with Jason's request).

Seems to me you quoted one of the posts that didn't discuss it an appropriate manner. :cool:

[OldPhiKap]

Seems to me you quoted one of the posts that didn't discuss it an appropriate manner. :cool:

;>)

Cannot spork you at moment, been too promiscuous apparently. I guess that I'm the poster your mother warned you about.

[alteran]

I don't think that Albany backing out will impact the State of North Carolina at all. We will get a replacement game, and that team will spend whatever Albany would have in hotel, food, etc.

Direct monetary damages? Agreed, minimal.

But every day HB2 is in the news is a bad day for North Carolina, and may cost the state money in ways that are hard to assess.

[OldPhiKap]

Direct monetary damages? Agreed, minimal.

But every day HB2 is in the news is a bad day for North Carolina, and may cost the state money in ways that are hard to assess.

Fair point.

[Rich]

Are Wake and UNC hosting any NY public basketball teams this year that this law would ban as well?

I heard that Clemson is refusing to play in Chapel Hill in perpetuity as a sign of solidarity for the NY ban and, well, because they always lose. :rolleyes:

[Indoor66]

This thread is proving quite the cathartic for us.

I hope it is not a self-inflicted situation.... :mad::o:cool:

[Reisen]

Well, unless you believe that this sort of statement or protest can on some level change policy or public opinion. I would wager that if (big if) the players agree with the NC travel ban and hope to overturn HB2 that they would not only consider that a "positive impact," but one worth the sacrifice of playing in Cameron.

Let's be honest, playing a game at Duke is special and all, but if you were protesting something you didn't believe in, the chance to shake K's hand post-game shouldn't sway your plan.

**Disclaimer - yes, it is a law in NY passed by people who are not on the Albany basketball team in response to a law in NC passed by people not on the Duke basketball team. That doesn't change the fact that precisely headlines like this and attention like this were the intent of the ban on sporting events in NC.

Yeah, but that's kind of my point. This whole episode feels very much like collateral damage for both parties involved. Not just Duke basketball, but the whole University, had no involvement in supporting the bill. This isn't like not eating at Chick-fil-A, where the institution was directly involved.

Even beyond the collateral damage argument, we all know this does exactly zero damage to the University/team/fans, other than a few people who specifically wanted to play that team. As has already been posted, whatever team replaces them will serve as a fine substitute in terms of revenue, television, strength of schedule, etc. etc. This is not Kentucky or Michigan State that is dropping out.

This is going to sound incredibly full of ourselves, but this is an average joe cancelling a date with a supermodel because he doesn't like one of her roommates. She's not going to have any trouble finding a new date for Friday night. Actually, scratch that, this is an average joe's father telling him he has to cancel a date with the supermodel because he doesn't like the roommates.

In terms of HB2 in the news, this is a footnote compared to other coverage. In fact, a Duke opponent cancelling games is more likely to INCREASE support for HB2 among NC voters than to decrease it. How many of those employees previously mentioned are Carolina fans?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Duke athletic director Kevin White told ESPN Thursday, "It's most unfortunate. As an institution, if not personally, we have gone on the record indicating that our state position on this (HB2) is very troubling, if not embarrassing.''

Good for you, Kevin. Happy to hear that.

[superdave]

;>)

Cannot spork you at moment, been too promiscuous apparently. I guess that I'm the poster your mother warned you about.

You are who we thought you were!

[Olympic Fan]

I'll keep my opinion of HB2 and the reaction to it to myself .... I don't want to take a vacation from the boards.

Safe to say, I'm sorry to see the Albany game cancelled.

I was wondering about the replacement. I'm sure one will be found, but it might not be simple at this late date.

It's not that Duke is out looking for another replacement game ... the Albany game was supposed to be the second game of the Hall of Fame Tipoff Classic and was set up by the tournament organizers.

The Tipoff Tournament has a fairly odd structure -- four teams are selected to play in the semifinals and finals at the Mohegan Sun in Connecticut. This season, that's Duke, Penn State, Rhode Island and Cincinnati.

Those four teams each get two home games against lessor teams -- and are guaranteed a trip to the semifinals, even if they are upset at home in one of those games.

The problem is that the eight preliminary teams are guaranteed more than one game -- in addition to their one game each with the semifinal team, they play additional games with each other.

The people running the tipoff classic have to find a team with room on its schedule to not only play Duke in Cameron, but also to play Grand Canyon and maybe one of the other preliminary teams.

I'm not sure that's easy (even though I know that Duke will be involved in the process).

I have heard that Marist College was mentioned. They are also from New York, but as a Catholic school are not subject to Cuomo's travel ban to North Carolina.

But all I know for sure is that the spot has not been filled. It is an annoying situation.

As to who or what is to blame -- I'll save that for the return of the PP Board.

[flyingdutchdevil]

...I'd love Duke to play Albany...In New York. Easy solution. Yeah, Duke gives up revenue but may gain tons in reputation.

[Troublemaker]

Even beyond the collateral damage argument, we all know this does exactly zero damage to the University/team/fans, other than a few people who specifically wanted to play that team. As has already been posted, whatever team replaces them will serve as a fine substitute in terms of revenue, television, strength of schedule, etc. etc. This is not Kentucky or Michigan State that is dropping out.

There might be some minor SOS damage depending on the replacement. If it turns out to be Marist, for example, they had a record of 7-23 last season (#304 kenpom). By contrast, Albany was 24-9 last season (#118 kenpom). That said, the damage will be so minor, it probably won't matter. If Duke wins its big games like it did in '14-'15, we will be a 1 seed.

[OldPhiKap]

You are who we thought you were!

"The only difference
that I see, is
you are exactly
the same
as you used to be"

-- Wallflowers


...I'd love Duke to play Albany...In New York. Easy solution. Yeah, Duke gives up revenue but may gain tons in reputation.

This. Let's play at their gym.

[Olympic Fan]

...I'd love Duke to play Albany...In New York. Easy solution. Yeah, Duke gives up revenue but may gain tons in reputation.

Brilliant suggestion ...

If I may extend your idea ... Albany's on-campus facility -- SEFCU Arena -- seats just 4,500 fans. But the Times-Union Arena in Albany seats 17,000 fans and has been used for the NCAA Tournament.

I realize its a short lead time to try and clear a date around Nov. 12. Duke will play Grand Canyon in Cameron on Nov. 11 -- the second game of the Tipoff Classic (the one Albany cancelled) is supposed to be Nov. 12 ... and we have to play Kansas in New York City on the 15th. Would K be willing to play Grand Canyon on Friday night, get on a plane the next day and fly to Albany, play Saturday night, then play Kansas on Tuesday night?

I don't think the Grand Canyon game can be moved up (I think Nov. 11 is the earliest allowable start date). I suppose the game at Albany could be moved back to Sunday night (the 13th), but that would leave less time for game prep for Kansas.

How about this ... play Grand Canyon at home on Friday night (Nov. 11). Play Kansas in New York on Nov. 15. Stay in New York and play Albany in Albany on Thursday (Nov. 17). Go straight to Connecticut for the Nov. 19 and 20 games against Penn State and Rhode Island/Cincinnati.

That gives K an extra day to prepare for Kansas -- the one really tough opponent in this stretch. True, that would involve playing four games in six days ... but a good test for a young, deep team.

[alteran]

...I'd love Duke to play Albany...In New York. Easy solution. Yeah, Duke gives up revenue but may gain tons in reputation.
It certainly would be a bold statement.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Be careful now you might get a negative spork for being in this thread... I got one just for thinking it was funny, which in itself increases the hilarity.

[gumbomoop]

How about this ... play Grand Canyon at home on Friday night (Nov. 11). Play Kansas in New York on Nov. 15. Stay in New York and play Albany in Albany on Thursday (Nov. 17). Go straight to Connecticut for the Nov. 19 and 20 games against Penn State and Rhode Island/Cincinnati.

That gives K an extra day to prepare for Kansas -- the one really tough opponent in this stretch. True, that would involve playing four games in six days ... but a good test for a young, deep team.

I like the drift of this thinking, but have a different suggestion.

Oly Fan's schedule revision has the advantage of the extra prep day for KU, but requires the team to miss probably 4 days of classes. So I'd prefer scheduling the @ Albany game early Sun aft, then get to NYC that eve. Play remainder of week as scheduled, KU on Tues, fly back to Durham for classes on Wed, Thurs, Fri morn, then fly to Connecticut Fri aft for Sat/Sun games. Miss classes only Mon/Tues.

[Pghdukie]

I'm of the opinion that if the Govt of NY isn't willing to have Albany come to Cameron (a private inst) then why would Duke and it's fan base go anywhere near there state capital. A Duke game at Times-Union would only stuff there pocketbooks. ¤¿□° them. Just my opinion!

[mailman2927]

What would happen if a New York team such as Albany is placed in a region in NCAA tournament that happens to be played in NC?

[devilseven]

Or, the other 11 States that have similar laws and are suing the federal government along with North Carolina.

[ChillinDuke]

What would happen if a New York team such as Albany is placed in a region in NCAA tournament that happens to be played in NC?

They'd play.

I'd wager a lot on that.

- Chillin

[mailman2927]

They'd play.

I'd wager a lot on that.

- Chillin

I def. agree. That would be such a double standard in my opinion.

[FerryFor50]

What would happen if a New York team such as Albany is placed in a region in NCAA tournament that happens to be played in NC?

That's assuming the NCAA doesn't move regions out of NC due to the bill. Which is still a very real possibility.

[OldPhiKap]

What would happen if a New York team such as Albany is placed in a region in NCAA tournament that happens to be played in NC?


They'd play.

I'd wager a lot on that.

- Chillin

I dunno. Personally, I don't roll on Shabbos.

[FerryFor50]

I dunno. Personally, I don't roll on Shabbos.

OPK abides.

[OldPhiKap]

OPK abides.

You need a toe? I can get you a toe, FerryFor50.

[FerryFor50]

You need a toe? I can get you a toe, FerryFor50.

Mark it an 8, OPK.

[alteran]

That's assuming the NCAA doesn't move regions out of NC due to the bill. Which is still a very real possibility.
I forgot about that.

[devilseven]

If the NCAA moves regional games out of NC, I would assume that they would also move any games scheduled for Texas, Alabama, Wisconsin, West Virginia, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Utah, Georgia, Maine, and Arizona (the other 11 states that are suing the federal government over the transgender rules).

[superdave]

If the NCAA moves regional games out of NC, I would assume that they would also move any games scheduled for Texas, Alabama, Wisconsin, West Virginia, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Utah, Georgia, Maine, and Arizona (the other 11 states that are suing the federal government over the transgender rules).

The NCAA should stick to amateur athletics and not tie itself in knots over things beyond its scope. Nobody really cares what a corrupt institution exploiting college kids thinks anyway.

In the words of Walter "$@%& it, Dude, let's go bowling"

[FerryFor50]

If the NCAA moves regional games out of NC, I would assume that they would also move any games scheduled for Texas, Alabama, Wisconsin, West Virginia, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Utah, Georgia, Maine, and Arizona (the other 11 states that are suing the federal government over the transgender rules).

I don't think those other states have laws in the same class as HB2. I'd gladly welcome a link showing otherwise.

[alteran]

If the NCAA moves regional games out of NC, I would assume that they would also move any games scheduled for Texas, Alabama, Wisconsin, West Virginia, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Utah, Georgia, Maine, and Arizona (the other 11 states that are suing the federal government over the transgender rules).

I don't think so. It's one thing to belly-ache in the courts over social policy you disagree with. It's an entirely different thing to throw the marker down by passing a law, particularly one as ... unyielding and thorough as HB2.

[FerryFor50]

I don't think so. It's one thing to belly-ache in the courts over social policy you disagree with. It's an entirely different thing to throw the marker down by passing a law, particularly one as ... unyielding and thorough as HB2.

Other states have tried to pass similar laws, but then backed off once they saw the monetary impact.

[OldPhiKap]

If the NCAA moves regional games out of NC, I would assume that they would also move any games scheduled for Texas, Alabama, Wisconsin, West Virginia, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Utah, Georgia, Maine, and Arizona (the other 11 states that are suing the federal government over the transgender rules).

Georgia's governor vetoed legislation along these lines, some would say at personal political expense. Don't lump us in there.

Atlanta would be happy to host.

[FerryFor50]

Atlanta would be happy to ho$$$$t.

Fixed it for you.

[OldPhiKap]

Fixed it for you.

It's all about the Tubmans.

[devilseven]

Ah, money is always the answer!

[devildeac]

Ah, money is always the answer!

Ah, yes, money:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sor9GzivGbk

[4Gen]

I'm of the opinion that if the Govt of NY isn't willing to have Albany come to Cameron (a private inst) then why would Duke and it's fan base go anywhere near there state capital. A Duke game at Times-Union would only stuff there pocketbooks. ¤¿□° them. Just my opinion!

+1, brother

[dyedwab]

I def. agree. That would be such a double standard in my opinion.

I would wager in the other direction, and more to the point, i believe that the NCAA would try to avoid that situation by intentionally avoiding scheduling a public school from NY in a state to which their government has banned travel. They would do something like they do for BYU which won't play on Sundays....

I also think that both the NCAA and the NBA are in a wait and see pattern re: what they are going to do with their major events in the state and are hoping for and intervening event in November that will give them clarity on a path forward.

[dukeinal]

I don't think those other states have laws in the same class as HB2. I'd gladly welcome a link showing otherwise.

You asked for links to other states with bathroom bills, this is from Huffington post a liberal/progressive website, just providing information, not taking sides:

Bathroom Bills

This legislation bans transgender people from using public bathrooms that match their gender identity, and even criminalizes it. Nine states have active bills relating to this: Illinois (HB 4474), Kansas (SB 513, HB 2737), Kentucky (HB 364), Minnesota (HF 3395, HF 3396, SF 3002), Missouri (HB 1624, SB 720), Mississippi (HB 1258), Oklahoma (HB 2215, HB 3049, SB 1014), South Carolina (SC 1203) and Tennessee (HB 2414, SB 2387, HB 2600, SB 2275).

[dyedwab]

You asked for links to other states with bathroom bills, this is from Huffington post a liberal/progressive website, just providing information, not taking sides:

Bathroom Bills

This legislation bans transgender people from using public bathrooms that match their gender identity, and even criminalizes it. Nine states have active bills relating to this: Illinois (HB 4474), Kansas (SB 513, HB 2737), Kentucky (HB 364), Minnesota (HF 3395, HF 3396, SF 3002), Missouri (HB 1624, SB 720), Mississippi (HB 1258), Oklahoma (HB 2215, HB 3049, SB 1014), South Carolina (SC 1203) and Tennessee (HB 2414, SB 2387, HB 2600, SB 2275).

I realize that this is not a public policy board, so please remove if necessary, but I believe the difference between HB2 and the bills in other states is that HB2 ALSO preempts any local non-discrimination laws. For institutions such as the NBA, the NCAA, and other large corporations and organizations, this distinction matters because they can (legitimately) say, well, while we oppose the state law, at least the city has a non-discrimination law.

Also "ACTIVE BILLS" and "LAWS" aren't the same thing - looking at that list, I can be reasonably certain that IL and MN bills won't get through the legislature (so Minneapolis and Chicago are "safe" as sites). And given corporate pressures that have been exerted since the passage of HB, many of these other states may slow down their push to pass them.

Anyway, I think this could end up being a real problem for cities from states that host the NCAA tournament, so its worth watching.

[Scorp4me]

Assuming it's confined to 11 states is...well, assuming. The fact remains this is only one of many hot topic issues. As someone else mentioned we may have to watch the games as they are played in Canada. I for one would welcome it, if we're going to be idiotic then let's go all in!

[dukeinal]

I realize that this is not a public policy board, so please remove if necessary, but I believe the difference between HB2 and the bills in other states is that HB2 ALSO preempts any local non-discrimination laws. For institutions such as the NBA, the NCAA, and other large corporations and organizations, this distinction matters because they can (legitimately) say, well, while we oppose the state law, at least the city has a non-discrimination law.

Also "ACTIVE BILLS" and "LAWS" aren't the same thing - looking at that list, I can be reasonably certain that IL and MN bills won't get through the legislature (so Minneapolis and Chicago are "safe" as sites). And given corporate pressures that have been exerted since the passage of HB, many of these other states may slow down their push to pass them.

Anyway, I think this could end up being a real problem for cities from states that host the NCAA tournament, so its worth watching.

In this day and age I would not bet against anything politically based not happening for either side. I just wish football would start so basketball would be closer...

[gam7]

I have heard that Marist College was mentioned. They are also from New York, but as a Catholic school are not subject to Cuomo's travel ban to North Carolina.


Amazing coincidence that on the Redick-Coach K podcast, JJ used Marist as an example of a school on the other end of the spectrum from a Duke basketball or a Texas football to explain why a one-size-fits-all compensation/benefits structure would be difficult for the NCAA compensation structure. Coach K, probably knowing there was good chance we would end up playing them because of Albany, followed up shortly after that to tell JJ that Marist is a great school. Nonetheless, if someone is looking to get creative in generating bulletin board material, they could use this.

[FerryFor50]

You asked for links to other states with bathroom bills, this is from Huffington post a liberal/progressive website, just providing information, not taking sides:

Bathroom Bills

This legislation bans transgender people from using public bathrooms that match their gender identity, and even criminalizes it. Nine states have active bills relating to this: Illinois (HB 4474), Kansas (SB 513, HB 2737), Kentucky (HB 364), Minnesota (HF 3395, HF 3396, SF 3002), Missouri (HB 1624, SB 720), Mississippi (HB 1258), Oklahoma (HB 2215, HB 3049, SB 1014), South Carolina (SC 1203) and Tennessee (HB 2414, SB 2387, HB 2600, SB 2275).

You need to do a little more digging than that.

Those aren't laws; NC is the only state with a law that has actually been passed, which is why other states are boycotting NC. And other states have had the benefit of seeing the financial fall out from it and have not been able to get enough support to pass them.

For example, SC 1203 died already:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article74382392.html

Kansas SB 2737 died:

http://kslegislature.org/li/b2015_16/measures/hb2737/

As did SB 513:

http://kslegislature.org/li/b2015_16/measures/sb513/

Kentucky HB 364, dead:

http://www.tristatehomepage.com/news/news-carousel/kentucky-transgender-restroom-bill-withdrawn-from-senate


I'm not going to dig into the rest of them, but there is *no* law like NC's out there currently. There isn't any conspiracy to punish only NC.

[Indoor66]

Amazing coincidence that on the Redick-Coach K podcast, JJ used Marist as an example of a school on the other end of the spectrum from a Duke basketball or a Texas football to explain why a one-size-fits-all compensation/benefits structure would be difficult for the NCAA compensation structure. Coach K, probably knowing there was good chance we would end up playing them because of Albany, followed up shortly after that to tell JJ that Marist is a great school. Nonetheless, if someone is looking to get creative in generating bulletin board material, they could use this.

How is that bulletin board material? JJ just points out that one rule dealing with compensation that applies to everybody will be unfair to the smaller school. Just a fact!

[sagegrouse]

Several days later -- quick to the punch as always -- the thread title is not quite right. "Albany Game Canceled" -- uh, more like "Albany Withdraws from Game at Duke." The Tip-Off Classic will continue -- at Duke -- but with a different opponent.

[plimnko]

could they still play the game if everyone peed before they came? lol

[buddy]

Since this is a tournament, with a field of 12 (4 guaranteed semi-finalists and 8 cannon fodder), why not just have Albany and another team switch schedules? This would seem to be the easiest solution. What am I missing?

[Troublemaker]

Since this is a tournament, with a field of 12 (4 guaranteed semi-finalists and 8 cannon fodder), why not just have Albany and another team switch schedules? This would seem to be the easiest solution. What am I missing?

Nothing. That most likely will be what occurs. For example, the rumored replacement Marist is one of the "cannon fodder" teams.

[devilseven]

Even better, why don't they replace Albany with another team. I'm sure Gov. Cuomo can find more acceptable opponent/opponents for Albany.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Trying to avoid the politics of this obviously political maneuvering - I think it's quite interesting to consider the bigger question of sports and its place in social movements. People generally (in hindsight) seem to praise Ali's stance on the civil rights movement, and the recent ESPN 30 for 30 is pretty unrelenting on OJ Simpson for not engaging the media in similar ways.

Jordan was criticized for not speaking out on issues and keeping a closer eye on his endorsement value, while I've heard lots of people roll their eyes at the ESPYs moment with Wade, Lebron, et al.

So, my question to the board (non PPB as much as possible) - what is the role of sport in social movements? Should athletes feel compelled to speak out on issues that matter to them because they are seen as role models and have such a big stage? Or should sports steer clear of controversial issues and be a place to retreat from things that actually matter?

[BandAlum83]

Trying to avoid the politics of this obviously political maneuvering - I think it's quite interesting to consider the bigger question of sports and its place in social movements. People generally (in hindsight) seem to praise Ali's stance on the civil rights movement, and the recent ESPN 30 for 30 is pretty unrelenting on OJ Simpson for not engaging the media in similar ways.

Jordan was criticized for not speaking out on issues and keeping a closer eye on his endorsement value, while I've heard lots of people roll their eyes at the ESPYs moment with Wade, Lebron, et al.

So, my question to the board (non PPB as much as possible) - what is the role of sport in social movements? Should athletes feel compelled to speak out on issues that matter to them because they are seen as role models and have such a big stage? Or should sports steer clear of controversial issues and be a place to retreat from things that actually matter?

Personally, if I had a level of celebrity I would use my position to advocate for my causes. I would, in essence, feel duty bound to advocate to all who would listen. I would hope it could move the needle even a little bit.

If the Presidency is the greatest bully pulpit and should be used, what's wrong with smaller pulpits being used? Sure, you run the risk of damaging your career, but at least you stayed true to your principles, regardless of where you stand.

I'm sure both Ted Nugent and the Dixie Chix have seen ups and downs as a result of their activism, but judging be the fact that they haven't backed down, I don't imagine they would change a thing.

[ChillinDuke]

So, my question to the board (non PPB as much as possible) - what is the role of sport in social movements? Should athletes feel compelled to speak out on issues that matter to them because they are seen as role models and have such a big stage? Or should sports steer clear of controversial issues and be a place to retreat from things that actually matter?

It's a good question and one I probably haven't fully baked in my own mind yet. So I'll sit back and listen more than I'll participate.

But my initial thought is that there is a time for both. For the actual event of sport, I don't want outside issues to be involved. Once the game/match/etc is over, if you want to use your popularity to promote a view on something, I don't have a problem with that. Granted, extending my initial thought to this particular situation is a bit difficult since we aren't "in" the event right now. So, clearly there is gray area.

Interested to hear other views.

- Chillin

[dyedwab]

Trying to avoid the politics of this obviously political maneuvering - I think it's quite interesting to consider the bigger question of sports and its place in social movements. People generally (in hindsight) seem to praise Ali's stance on the civil rights movement, and the recent ESPN 30 for 30 is pretty unrelenting on OJ Simpson for not engaging the media in similar ways.

Jordan was criticized for not speaking out on issues and keeping a closer eye on his endorsement value, while I've heard lots of people roll their eyes at the ESPYs moment with Wade, Lebron, et al.

So, my question to the board (non PPB as much as possible) - what is the role of sport in social movements? Should athletes feel compelled to speak out on issues that matter to them because they are seen as role models and have such a big stage? Or should sports steer clear of controversial issues and be a place to retreat from things that actually matter?

Years ago, Arizona as a state did not recognize the Martin Luther King holiday. They were scheduled to host the Super Bowl and the NFL threatened to pull the game because of AZ's stance. The law changed in AZ.

I'd argue their are two separate, but related q's here. One, which is what you've cited above, is about what the athletes do. Two, which what's going on here or in AZ, what do the businesses/institutions/non-profits/government do. I think its an interesting broader question, but, in this case, its hard for me to imagine an uproar in New York State about SUNY Albany's athletic teams not being allowed to travel to NC - SUNY Albany athletics just isn't that important vis-a-vis statewide interests.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Years ago, Arizona as a state did not recognize the Martin Luther King holiday. They were scheduled to host the Super Bowl and the NFL threatened to pull the game because of AZ's stance. The law changed in AZ.

I'd argue their are two separate, but related q's here. One, which is what you've cited above, is about what the athletes do. Two, which what's going on here or in AZ, what do the businesses/institutions/non-profits/government do. I think its an interesting broader question, but, in this case, its hard for me to imagine an uproar in New York State about SUNY Albany's athletic teams not being allowed to travel to NC - SUNY Albany athletics just isn't that important vis-a-vis statewide interests.

Oh, I acknowledge that my question is at best ancillary to the Duke/Albany/NY/HB2 question. Perhaps it warrants a separate thread.

I personally can see both sides. If I'm watching Duke basketball, I'd rather not be reminded of the political leanings of the coaches or whatnot. I watch sports, as my Tar Heel neighbor says "to care about something that doesn't matter."

However, I have no problem with athletes taking a stand for things they believe in passionately. And I have a hard time imagining commentators being able to restrain themselves from discussing such things in the course of a game. I mean, we all remember Tim Tebow.

[rasputin]

Trying to avoid the politics of this obviously political maneuvering - I think it's quite interesting to consider the bigger question of sports and its place in social movements. People generally (in hindsight) seem to praise Ali's stance on the civil rights movement, and the recent ESPN 30 for 30 is pretty unrelenting on OJ Simpson for not engaging the media in similar ways.

Jordan was criticized for not speaking out on issues and keeping a closer eye on his endorsement value, while I've heard lots of people roll their eyes at the ESPYs moment with Wade, Lebron, et al.

So, my question to the board (non PPB as much as possible) - what is the role of sport in social movements? Should athletes feel compelled to speak out on issues that matter to them because they are seen as role models and have such a big stage? Or should sports steer clear of controversial issues and be a place to retreat from things that actually matter?

And before Ali, of course, you had MLB and Jackie Robinson, which was an important part of a long-range social change (which is still in progress).

[duke74]

I dunno. Personally, I don't roll on Shabbos.

Damn, I wanted to spork you for this but couldn't! 😉

[oldnavy]

Trying to avoid the politics of this obviously political maneuvering - I think it's quite interesting to consider the bigger question of sports and its place in social movements. People generally (in hindsight) seem to praise Ali's stance on the civil rights movement, and the recent ESPN 30 for 30 is pretty unrelenting on OJ Simpson for not engaging the media in similar ways.

Jordan was criticized for not speaking out on issues and keeping a closer eye on his endorsement value, while I've heard lots of people roll their eyes at the ESPYs moment with Wade, Lebron, et al.

So, my question to the board (non PPB as much as possible) - what is the role of sport in social movements? Should athletes feel compelled to speak out on issues that matter to them because they are seen as role models and have such a big stage? Or should sports steer clear of controversial issues and be a place to retreat from things that actually matter?


SHOULD?

That sounds a bit judgmental to me. I am not saying your are being judgmental by asking the question, but if I say that LeBron SHOULD speak out on XYZ... am I not being a bit judgmental towards him?

Who can say what someone SHOULD feel like doing. You SHOULD insert my/your opinion... That doesn't sound right does it?

Athletes or anybody for that matter SHOULD feel free to speak out on social issues if they are compelled, but I don't think I have the right to say they SHOULD speak out or stay quite.

We have way too many people telling other people what they SHOULD be doing, how they SHOULD feel, etc, etc, etc.

I like my sports without social commentary. I use the games I watch as an escape from social issues... heaven knows you can't watch a news broadcast or sitcom today without seeing someone's social agenda being force fed to you.

If the social statements get to the point where I cannot enjoy watching sports, then I will stop watching and retreat 100% into reading as an escape.

But I will not call for the athletes to stop speaking their minds or tell them how they SHOULD use their fame. It's not my business.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

SHOULD?

That sounds a bit judgmental to me. I am not saying your are being judgmental by asking the question, but if I say that LeBron SHOULD speak out on XYZ... am I not being a bit judgmental towards him?

Who can say what someone SHOULD feel like doing. You SHOULD insert my/your opinion... That doesn't sound right does it?

Athletes or anybody for that matter SHOULD feel free to speak out on social issues if they are compelled, but I don't think I have the right to say they SHOULD speak out or stay quite.

We have way too many people telling other people what they SHOULD be doing, how they SHOULD feel, etc, etc, etc.

I like my sports without social commentary. I use the games I watch as an escape from social issues... heaven knows you can't watch a news broadcast or sitcom today without seeing someone's social agenda being force fed to you.

If the social statements get to the point where I cannot enjoy watching sports, then I will stop watching and retreat 100% into reading as an escape.

But I will not call for the athletes to stop speaking their minds or tell them how they SHOULD use their fame. It's not my business.

Well, I was legitimately trying to ask a question, and if you read it in conjunction with the sentence that immediately follows, the construction becomes "should... or should...."

At any rate, I guess we got your emphatic answer.

[Indoor66]

SHOULD?

That sounds a bit judgmental to me. I am not saying your are being judgmental by asking the question, but if I say that LeBron SHOULD speak out on XYZ... am I not being a bit judgmental towards him?

Who can say what someone SHOULD feel like doing. You SHOULD insert my/your opinion... That doesn't sound right does it?

Athletes or anybody for that matter SHOULD feel free to speak out on social issues if they are compelled, but I don't think I have the right to say they SHOULD speak out or stay quite.

We have way too many people telling other people what they SHOULD be doing, how they SHOULD feel, etc, etc, etc.

I like my sports without social commentary. I use the games I watch as an escape from social issues... heaven knows you can't watch a news broadcast or sitcom today without seeing someone's social agenda being force fed to you.

If the social statements get to the point where I cannot enjoy watching sports, then I will stop watching and retreat 100% into reading as an escape.

But I will not call for the athletes to stop speaking their minds or tell them how they SHOULD use their fame. It's not my business.

This old Marine has to agree with the old navy man. I feel that there is too much force feeding of social and political agendas on all TV programming - entertainment and news. PLEASE leave sports out of that mix. Sports are mostly about how many and not why. Keep it simple - keep scores and not agendas.

[Doria]

Yeah, someone upthread noted a distinction I would observe, as well. Private individuals are different than institutions including, but not limited to, schools, governing sports bodies, corporate sponsors, networks, etc. In the case of athletes, I'd think people should be free to express their views as appropriate, provided they're willing and able to also accept any consequences thereof.

However, your neighbor also has a point (and a pithy comment), in that when I watch sports, I don't necessarily want a lengthy opinion piece from the analyst. I have been known to mute the TV when people start in on irritating diatribes unrelated to the game I'm trying to watch. But that's just my preference; I'm sure other people's opinions will vary.

[OldPhiKap]

Yeah, someone upthread noted a distinction I would observe, as well. Private individuals are different than institutions including, but not limited to, schools, governing sports bodies, corporate sponsors, networks, etc. In the case of athletes, I'd think people should be free to express their views as appropriate, provided they're willing and able to also accept any consequences thereof.

However, your neighbor also has a point (and a pithy comment), in that when I watch sports, I don't necessarily want a lengthy opinion piece from the analyst. I have been known to mute the TV when people start in on irritating diatribes unrelated to the game I'm trying to watch. But that's just my preference; I'm sure other people's opinions will vary.

So -- when IS the last time you listened to a whole Dick Vitale broadcast?

[Jarhead]

So -- when IS the last time you listened to a whole Dick Vitale broadcast?Honestly? Never.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

This old Marine has to agree with the old navy man. I feel that there is too much force feeding of social and political agendas on all TV programming - entertainment and news. PLEASE leave sports out of that mix. Sports are mostly about how many and not why. Keep it simple - keep scores and not agendas.

Well, I honestly wasn't trying to advocate one or the other, but to ask a question to get people's opinions. I guess it worked!

[Stray Gator]

I'll leave it for others to sort out the political implications. All I want to know is whether there's any way we can use the NY Governor's action as a ground for moving the ACC Tournament from Brooklyn back to Greensboro (or to Charlotte, or Raleigh, or Atlanta) . . .

[oldnavy]

Well, I was legitimately trying to ask a question, and if you read it in conjunction with the sentence that immediately follows, the construction becomes "should... or should..."

At any rate, I guess we got your emphatic answer.

Don't get me wrong... I am not saying that you were or are being judgmental by the question.

I just think we can get into trouble when we project what we think people should or should not do based on our own feeling and thoughts.

Maybe it is just a nit pick on my part... But if you or I say that Tiger Woods SHOULD be more outspoken on race issues... then I feel we are out of bounds. We may wish that Tiger would be more outspoken, but IMO it is up to Tiger to decide if he wants to climb that pedestal.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Don't get me wrong... I am not saying that you were or are being judgmental by the question.

I just think we can get into trouble when we project what we think people should or should not do based on our own feeling and thoughts.

Maybe it is just a nit pick on my part... But if you or I say that Tiger Woods SHOULD be more outspoken on race issues... then I feel we are out of bounds. We may wish that Tiger would be more outspoken, but IMO it is up to Tiger to decide if he wants to climb that pedestal.

Okay, I see what you are saying, but I was soliciting opinions because people seem to be very strongly on both sides of the issue (ie. "Tiger Woods should be outspoken about conditions in Nike factories" or "Tiger Woods should shut up and play golf) and it seems to be one of the only topical controversial issues that doesn't relate to PBB. :)

Just trying to spark some off season debate on a topic that isn't "when the hell will UNC be punished?"

[OldPhiKap]

Just trying to spark some off season debate on a topic that isn't "when the hell will UNC be punished?"

Never. Is there really still debate about this?


{ducks}

[elvis14]

So, my question to the board (non PPB as much as possible) - what is the role of sport in social movements? Should athletes feel compelled to speak out on issues that matter to them because they are seen as role models and have such a big stage? Or should sports steer clear of controversial issues and be a place to retreat from things that actually matter?

I like the way you ask this question because you used the word compelled and as opposed to obligated. I think that athletes can be a positive voice and that might reach an audience (like younger people) that might otherwise not be reached. If an athlete decides to speak out about an issue for which they feel strongly about, I often commend them for taking up the cause. At the same time if they aren't particularly compelled and just want to play their game and cash their check, that's fine too.

I really appreciated the words from the 4 NBA players this week (and I'm not particularly a fan of 3/4).

[FerryFor50]

Those pesky athletes and celebrities should keep their opinions to themselves.

Meanwhile, I'll keep exercising the first amendment rights that apparently don't apply to people with notoriety.

(Yes that was sarcasm)

[Blue in the Face]

Are Wake and UNC hosting any NY public basketball teams this year that this law would ban as well?
I haven't heard of any other basketball games, but Albany has also cancelled field hockey games at Duke and UNC.

[AustinDevil]

Jordan was criticized for not speaking out on issues and keeping a closer eye on his endorsement value, while I've heard lots of people roll their eyes at the ESPYs moment with Wade, Lebron, et al.

Goodness, those must be some very dry, very rough eyes! What did they sound like?

[MartyClark]

Those pesky athletes and celebrities should keep their opinions to themselves.

Meanwhile, I'll keep exercising the first amendment rights that apparently don't apply to people with notoriety.

(Yes that was sarcasm)

Good point. I appreciate your sarcasm and your long history of insightful and entertaining posts.

I'd add a couple of things that may, or may not be, consistent with your thoughts.

The 1st Amendment is a precious right that we should never take for granted. At the same time, having the right to comment does not impose a duty to comment. I have no problem with athletes who choose not to voice their opinions on issues.

Athletes and celebrities can, and do, voice their opinions. Those opinions should be subject to the same level headed scrutiny that we give to any opinion. Whether Ted Nugent, Angelina Jolie or Carmelo Anthony, the opinions can be insightful or incredibly stupid.

In my opinion, athletes and celebrities who venture political opinions should do it in a thoughtful manner. Some do. Many do not.

If we disagree, that's fine. I respect your opinions and greatly respect the freedom of speech we have in this country.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Goodness, those must be some very dry, very rough eyes! What did they sound like?

Jeez, tough crowd today.

[oldnavy]

Those pesky athletes and celebrities should keep their opinions to themselves.

Meanwhile, I'll keep exercising the first amendment rights that apparently don't apply to people with notoriety.

(Yes that was sarcasm)

Everybody has a right to speak, but that doesn't mean everybody should!! :rolleyes: (sarcasm as well!)

Grand Ma Navy used to say when I would respectfully disagree with her, "Young Navy, you have the right to be wrong if you want to..."

[alteran]

Good point. I appreciate your sarcasm and your long history of insightful and entertaining posts.

I'd add a couple of things that may, or may not be, consistent with your thoughts.

The 1st Amendment is a precious right that we should never take for granted. At the same time, having the right to comment does not impose a duty to comment. I have no problem with athletes who choose not to voice their opinions on issues.

Athletes and celebrities can, and do, voice their opinions. Those opinions should be subject to the same level headed scrutiny that we give to any opinion. Whether Ted Nugent, Angelina Jolie or Carmelo Anthony, the opinions can be insightful or incredibly stupid.

In my opinion, athletes and celebrities who venture political opinions should do it in a thoughtful manner. Some do. Many do not.

If we disagree, that's fine. I respect your opinions and greatly respect the freedom of speech we have in this country.

Good stuff.

I'd also add that I see A LOT of people confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom from speech's consequences."

The first is constitutionally guaranteed. The second, not so much-- and rightfully so.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Good stuff.

I'd also add that I see A LOT of people confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom from speech's consequences."

The first is constitutionally guaranteed. The second, not so much-- and rightfully so.

That is one hundred percent true. There aren't enough sporks...

[devildeac]

I'll leave it for others to sort out the political implications. All I want to know is whether there's any way we can use the NY Governor's action as a ground for moving the ACC Tournament from Brooklyn back to Greensboro (or to Charlotte, or Raleigh, or Atlanta) . . .

I like this idea. Raleigh sounds like a great place for the ACCT-about a mile from my office :cool: .

[OldPhiKap]

Good stuff.

I'd also add that I see A LOT of people confuse "freedom of speech" with "freedom from speech's consequences."

The first is constitutionally guaranteed. The second, not so much-- and rightfully so.

All rights come with responsibilities. Use both wisely.

[FerryFor50]

Good point. I appreciate your sarcasm and your long history of insightful and entertaining posts.

I'd add a couple of things that may, or may not be, consistent with your thoughts.

The 1st Amendment is a precious right that we should never take for granted. At the same time, having the right to comment does not impose a duty to comment. I have no problem with athletes who choose not to voice their opinions on issues.

Athletes and celebrities can, and do, voice their opinions. Those opinions should be subject to the same level headed scrutiny that we give to any opinion. Whether Ted Nugent, Angelina Jolie or Carmelo Anthony, the opinions can be insightful or incredibly stupid.

In my opinion, athletes and celebrities who venture political opinions should do it in a thoughtful manner. Some do. Many do not.

If we disagree, that's fine. I respect your opinions and greatly respect the freedom of speech we have in this country.


I agree and echo the sentiments of others who note that freedom of speech is a two way street.

However, my point was this:

Whether athlete or celebrity or forum troll, we're all entitled to political opinions.

To imply that someone "should not" have that right because perhaps they aren't very smart or eloquent or just plain don't agree with our politics is wrong, in my opinion.

Of course, those who express unpopular, bigoted or dumb opinions are fair game for the free speech of others. ��

But part if the issue with this country is the notion that those who disagree are somehow lesser in opinion.

https://medium.com/@SeanBlanda/the-other-side-is-not-dumb-2670c1294063#.h6mv1kq0f

[Indoor66]

Those pesky athletes and celebrities should keep their opinions to themselves.

Meanwhile, I'll keep exercising the first amendment rights that apparently don't apply to people with notoriety.

(Yes that was sarcasm)

I don't care what they say. Their opinions about almost anything is meaningless to me. I enjoy their performances and have little interest in their beliefs, sex lives, significant others or food interests. Just act, sing, run, jump or swing and let the rest to others. Having said that, they are free to express anything they want.

[duke74]

All rights come with responsibilities. Use both wisely.

And with great power comes great responsibility. Quoth a fellow Forest Hills resident, Peter Parker, aka Spidey. :)

[MartyClark]

I agree and echo the sentiments of others who note that freedom of speech is a two way street.

However, my point was this:

Whether athlete or celebrity or forum troll, we're all entitled to political opinions.

To imply that someone "should not" have that right because perhaps they aren't very smart or eloquent or just plain don't agree with our politics is wrong, in my opinion.

Of course, those who express unpopular, bigoted or dumb opinions are fair game for the free speech of others. ��

But part if the issue with this country is the notion that those who disagree are somehow lesser in opinion.

https://medium.com/@SeanBlanda/the-other-side-is-not-dumb-2670c1294063#.h6mv1kq0f

Good link, thanks.

[NSDukeFan]

I don't care what they say. Their opinions about almost anything is meaningless to me. I enjoy their performances and have little interest in their beliefs, sex lives, significant others or food interests. Just act, sing, run, jump or swing and let the rest to others. Having said that, they are free to express anything they want.

I agree that athletes, actors, or other famous people can certainly use their popularity to promote a cause. I don't necessarily believe, as most would agree, that the ability to throw a curve ball, twirl on a pommel horse or pretend to express great emotions accurately makes someone's political views more worthy of being listened to.

Discussion of the freedom of speech reminds me of a comedian's joke "I knew I had the right to remain silent, but I did not have the ability."

[tteettimes]

Discussion of the freedom of speech reminds me of a comedian's joke "I knew I had the right to remain silent, but I did not have the ability."

Comedian is Ron White......very funny scotch drinker

[Neals384]

I agree and echo the sentiments of others who note that freedom of speech is a two way street.

However, my point was this:

Whether athlete or celebrity or forum troll, we're all entitled to political opinions.

To imply that someone "should not" have that right because perhaps they aren't very smart or eloquent or just plain don't agree with our politics is wrong, in my opinion.

Of course, those who express unpopular, bigoted or dumb opinions are fair game for the free speech of others. ��

But part if the issue with this country is the notion that those who disagree are somehow lesser in opinion.

https://medium.com/@SeanBlanda/the-other-side-is-not-dumb-2670c1294063#.h6mv1kq0f

Money quote from the link:
"We should all enter every issue with the very real possibility that we might be wrong this time."

That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard!

[NSDukeFan]

Discussion of the freedom of speech reminds me of a comedian's joke "I knew I had the right to remain silent, but I did not have the ability."

Comedian is Ron White...very funny scotch drinker

Thanks for the reminder. That joke stuck with me, but I agree it's not his only funny one.

[OldPhiKap]

Discussion of the freedom of speech reminds me of a comedian's joke "I knew I had the right to remain silent, but I did not have the ability."

Comedian is Ron White...very funny scotch drinker.

Alias "Tater Salad"

That line comes from a story about him getting thrown out of a bar, and arrested for being drunk in public. His point -- he was drunk in a bar; they threw him out into the public.

Really funny guy. Definitely NSFW.

[hillsborodevil]

Most definitely the toughest stretch of the year for Duke BB fans. As I faithfully pull up DBR @ 6am this morning and read the wonderful and thoughtful posts I see this thread at the top...again. So to get my Duke "fix" for the day I pull up this video at the 56:45 mark and watch a star being formed - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKuL8Dn5_PY. Within a blink of eye its 7am and I realize I have something in my eye. Enjoy.

[sagegrouse]

Discussion of the freedom of speech reminds me of a comedian's joke "I knew I had the right to remain silent, but I did not have the ability."

Comedian is Ron White...very funny scotch drinker

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt." -- Abraham Lincoln or Mark Twain

[Indoor66]

Money quote from the link:
"We should all enter every issue with the very real possibility that we might be wrong this time."

That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard!

Yeah, who needs humility in life?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt." -- Abraham Lincoln or Mark Twain

Establishing the veracity of Internet quotations can be extremely vexing.
- Abraham Lincoln

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Tipoff website continues to show Albany at Duke on Nov 12. http://www.halloffametipoff.com/schedule.php

[moonpie23]

coach K calls HB2 "embarrassing" (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/mens-basketball/article90877197.html)

is anyone surprised by this?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

coach K calls HB2 "embarrassing" (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/mens-basketball/article90877197.html)

is anyone surprised by this?

I think lots of people on both sides of the aisle find it embarrassing. That is my experience in this state - and that was before the economic impacts started to be evident.

[Mike Corey]

coach K calls HB2 "embarrassing" (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/mens-basketball/article90877197.html)

is anyone surprised by this?

Nope.

I am surprised that he weighed in, however.

[elvis14]

coach K calls HB2 "embarrassing" (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/mens-basketball/article90877197.html)

is anyone surprised by this?

I don't know if I'm surprised. I do know that I've very proud of Coach K for saying it.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I don't know if I'm surprised. I do know that I've very proud of Coach K for saying it.

Me too. Although he is emphasizing that this is the Duke position (yay Duke!).

[MChambers]

Covers Coach K's remarks here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/07/21/coach-k-calls-north-carolinas-bathroom-law-embarrassing/

[rsvman]

Money quote from the link:
"We should all enter every issue with the very real possibility that we might be wrong this time."

That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard!

I don't think it's dumb at all.


As a physician at a teaching hospital, I try to remember this with each new patient, and I teach the students and residents the same thing. One of the biggest mistakes I see in doctoring is over-reliance on one's initial diagnosis, even in the face of contrary evidence.

[moonpie23]

I don't know if I'm surprised. I do know that I've very proud of Coach K for saying it.

as am i....

[Doria]

There was an interesting (to me) article in USA Today a while ago, and I couldn't find the link at the time, but thanks to Coach K's comments, they had it featured in a sidebar. This has to do with the intersection of diversity/student rights with college athletics. I think it's a pretty fair article (though it is a little long); while it's clear the author's general bias, it also illustrates the real hurdles that institutions face when caught between two "rights": http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2016/04/26/religious-schools-policy-ncaa-lgbt-student-athletes/83299356/

[FerryFor50]

Not that it's Albany related, but the NBA just pulled the All-Star game due to HB2.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Not that it's Albany related, but the NBA just pulled the All-Star game due to HB2.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

According to ESPN, the NBA is "exploring alternatives."

Money is quite a leverage.

[OldPhiKap]

Yahoo says it's essentially a done deal, announcement may come within a week:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba-pulls-2017-all-star-game-from-charlotte-focuses-on-new-orleans-190148437.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw

Charlotte's loss looking to be New Orleans' gain.

[TKG]

Yahoo says it's essentially a done deal, announcement may come within a week:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba-pulls-2017-all-star-game-from-charlotte-focuses-on-new-orleans-190148437.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw

Charlotte's loss looking to be New Orleans' gain.

Who knew George Shinn was a trailblazer.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yahoo says it's essentially a done deal, announcement may come within a week:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba-pulls-2017-all-star-game-from-charlotte-focuses-on-new-orleans-190148437.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw

Charlotte's loss looking to be New Orleans' gain.

$100M down the drain. Idiots...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Never underestimate the power of stubborness.

[devilseven]

Looks like the Charlotte City Council got more that they bargained for when they opened that can of worms. Everything was just fine with the NBA until then. Maybe the NBA will cancel all the Hornets home games, too. What do you think?

[rasputin]

$100M down the drain. Idiots...

Is that anything like seven years of college down the drain?

[hallcity]

Looks like the Charlotte City Council got more that they bargained for when they opened that can of worms. Everything was just fine with the NBA until then. Maybe the NBA will cancel all the Hornets home games, too. What do you think?

Right. It's all the fault of the Charlotte city council. The NC General Assembly had no choice.

[OldPhiKap]

Never underestimate the power of stubborness.

"Pride goeth before the fall"


Is that anything like seven years of college down the drain?

"Son -- fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life."

[jimsumner]

Looks like the Charlotte City Council got more that they bargained for when they opened that can of worms. Everything was just fine with the NBA until then. Maybe the NBA will cancel all the Hornets home games, too. What do you think?

Actually, everything was fine with the NBA after the Charlotte City Council passed its anti-discrimination ordinance.

The NBA has never had a beef with the Charlotte City Council. To suggest otherwise rather strains credulity.

[duke74]

"Pride goeth before the fall"



"Son -- fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life."

Any thread that quotes Animal House is OK by me.

[Tommac]

Actually, everything was fine with the NBA after the Charlotte City Council passed its anti-discrimination ordinance.

The NBA has never had a beef with the Charlotte City Council. To suggest otherwise rather strains credulity.

I believe that devilseven meant that the Charlotte city council started the dominoes falling to the current circumstance.

[MChambers]

Any thread that quotes Animal House is OK by me.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

[oldnavy]

Never underestimate the power of stubborness.

Or deeply held beliefs.

Idiots, bigots, stubborn, all words being used to describe the folks that support HB2... name calling doesn't further the discussion, or is that the intent?

Tolerance as defined in Websters: sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own.

Simple fix, all that needs to be done is change the state leadership via the vote in the next election.

[alteran]

Or deeply held beliefs.

Idiots, bigots, stubborn, all words being used to describe the folks that support HB2... name calling doesn't further the discussion, or is that the intent?

Tolerance as defined in Websters: sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own.

Simple fix, all that needs to be done is change the state leadership via the vote in the next election.

You'd actually have to change the legislature. But the legislature is pretty much vote-proof currently. That's probably as much as I can say under DBR guidelines.

The fix will be anything but simple.

[oldnavy]

You'd actually have to change the legislature. But the legislature is pretty much vote-proof currently. That's probably as much as I can say under DBR guidelines.

The fix will be anything but simple.

No, it's very simple.

It might not be easy to do, but if the majority of the state disagree with the laws being passed, then the majority can remove the legislature and replace them with folks that will pass laws that are more agreeable to the majority.

Right now the elected officials have passed HB2. If it is offensive to the majority of the state it can be overturned with a new state congress. Or, if it is deemed unconstitutional, the courts will rule it as such. Boycotts by the NBA, NY, etc.. are going to have little to zero effect. This is one of the rare cases where money isn't going to be the driving force IMO.

The question in my mind really is as much about the right of the state verses the right of the federal government... a fight that has been going on in some form or another since 1776.

[oldnavy]

Looks like the Charlotte City Council got more that they bargained for when they opened that can of worms. Everything was just fine with the NBA until then. Maybe the NBA will cancel all the Hornets home games, too. What do you think?

That or force them to move out of NC.

Moving an All Star game isn't that difficult, but if they truly want to be "principled" about this, then they need to move the Hornets...

But, I doubt that the NBA feels "THAT" strongly about HB2....

Who wants to take a guess at what the NCAA will do if anything about tournament games in NC???

[ncexnyc]

Or deeply held beliefs.

Idiots, bigots, stubborn, all words being used to describe the folks that support HB2... name calling doesn't further the discussion, or is that the intent?

Tolerance as defined in Websters: sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own.

Simple fix, all that needs to be done is change the state leadership via the vote in the next election.

This whole mess reminds me of the story about the lemmings. They were headed down the road to an enlightened society. Unfortunately for them not one of the lemmings stood up and said we're actually on a road to a cliff.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Or deeply held beliefs.

Idiots, bigots, stubborn, all words being used to describe the folks that support HB2... name calling doesn't further the discussion, or is that the intent?

Tolerance as defined in Websters: sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own.

Simple fix, all that needs to be done is change the state leadership via the vote in the next election.

Stubborn is a fact, not name calling. State legislature is sticking to their guns despite mounting economic cost to the state. Most folks I know are unimpressed with the effect that is having in order to make a point that not everyone in the state agrees with.

And yes, in the cases involving civil rights, the government can step in - that is far from something new.

[alteran]

No, it's very simple.

It might not be easy to do, but if the majority of the state disagree with the laws being passed, then the majority can remove the legislature and replace them with folks that will pass laws that are more agreeable to the majority.

Actually, not true. In 2012, a majority voted to change the legislature. Yet the legislature retained not just a majority, but a supermajority.

I expect the same thing to happen this year.

[oldnavy]

Stubborn is a fact, not name calling. State legislature is sticking to their guns despite mounting economic cost to the state. Most folks I know are unimpressed with the effect that is having in order to make a point that not everyone in the state agrees with.

And yes, in the cases involving civil rights, the government can step in - that is far from something new.

Find me one thing that everyone in the state can agree on and I will eat my laptop.

The courts can change laws and have been doing so since we formed the three branches which is why I said that. I am not claiming it to be something new... ?

The ridiculously high NC tax code has and will cost this state so much more than HB2 could ever cost, yet I hear very little uproar over the tax issue.

This isn't an economic issue at all. It is an issue that cuts MUCH deeper than peoples pocket books. It strikes at the foundation of their belief system.

Like I said, the NBA and the Governor if NY are making a "GESTURE"... if they are principled enough, the NBA will boycott NC altogether which would mean moving the Bobcats out next year before one more dollar is spent in NC. Will they really put their money where their mouth is??

The law was passed because the majority of lawmakers agreed with what it says. They had to have known that there would be backlash given the powerful lobby that supports LGBT issues. So, if they walk back on their "principles" because a few outside business opportunities are lost, then they really didn't believe what they claim to believe.

Will the bill get overturned at some point? My guess is yes, it will get reworked in some shape or fashion.

And, the funny thing about calling someone stubborn is that it is so easy to flip it. Couldn't it be said of the group that refuses to accept HB2 is being stubborn in their beliefs as well?

[oldnavy]

Actually, not true. In 2012, a majority voted to change the legislature. Yet the legislature retained not just a majority, but a supermajority.

I expect the same thing to happen this year.

I am talking about voting out of office your representatives and replacing them district by district with people that hold your same values and ideology.

It is a very simple concept. You don't agree with X, so you vote for Y...

If Y has more votes, Y is in and X is out. Repeat across the state until there are more Y's than X's.

The application and execution of this simple concept may be quite difficult, but it is a very simple concept.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Find me one thing that everyone in the state can agree on and I will eat my laptop.

The courts can change laws and have been doing so since we formed the three branches which is why I said that. I am not claiming it to be something new... ?

The ridiculously high NC tax code has and will cost this state so much more than HB2 could ever cost, yet I hear very little uproar over the tax issue.

This isn't an economic issue at all. It is an issue that cuts MUCH deeper than peoples pocket books. It strikes at the foundation of their belief system.

Like I said, the NBA and the Governor if NY are making a "GESTURE"... if they are principled enough, the NBA will boycott NC altogether which would mean moving the Bobcats out next year before one more dollar is spent in NC. Will they really put their money where their mouth is??

The law was passed because the majority of lawmakers agreed with what it says. They had to have known that there would be backlash given the powerful lobby that supports LGBT issues. So, if they walk back on their "principles" because a few outside business opportunities are lost, then they really didn't believe what they claim to believe.

Will the bill get overturned at some point? My guess is yes, it will get reworked in some shape or fashion.

And, the funny thing about calling someone stubborn is that it is so easy to flip it. Couldn't it be said of the group that refuses to accept HB2 is being stubborn in their beliefs as well?

Except that "belief system" (religion) ought to be a nonfactor in any legislation. Civil rights protect us from one another's religious beliefs, whatever they may be.

And you are right, it isn't an economic issue. It is a civil rights issue that is being highlighted by the economic impact.

The impact on my small business (or the Albany or Duke basketball team) is negligible compared to those who the bill actually affects.

[oldnavy]

Except that "belief system" (religion) ought to be a nonfactor in any legislation. Civil rights protect us from one another's religious beliefs, whatever they may be.

And you are right, it isn't an economic issue. It is a civil rights issue that is being highlighted by the economic impact.

The impact on my small business (or the Albany or Duke basketball team) is negligible compared to those who the bill actually affects.

This isn't what the Founding Fathers thought. Should I pull a dozen or so quotes from a dozen or so signers of the Declaration of Independence that clearly rebuke your claim?

[NSDukeFan]

I am talking about voting out of office your representatives and replacing them district by district with people that hold your same values and ideology.

It is a very simple concept. You don't agree with X, so you vote for Y...

If Y has more votes, Y is in and X is out. Repeat across the state until there are more Y's than X's.

The application and execution of this simple concept may be quite difficult, but it is a very simple concept.

Usually, each individual only has one vote, so they simply can't repeat across the state. This makes the application and execution very difficult unless you know everyone and can get them all to vote the way you would like.

[Indoor66]

Usually, each individual only has one vote, so they simply can't repeat across the state. This makes the application and execution very difficult unless you know everyone and can get them all to vote the way you would like.

Isn't that the "democracy" part of a representative democracy form of government? You first have to win in the marketplace of ideas before you change the votes. Redefining civil rights does not redefine value structures. Persuasive arguments in discussion does.

[oldnavy]

Usually, each individual only has one vote, so they simply can't repeat across the state. This makes the application and execution very difficult unless you know everyone and can get them all to vote the way you would like.

Exactly. One person, one vote. Convince enough folks to agree with you and then you can change things... simple!

[Reilly]

Find me one thing that everyone in the state can agree on and I will eat my laptop ...

Roy's non-use of timeouts is perplexing?

[oldnavy]

Roy's non-use of timeouts is perplexing?

Hahaha!

Got me, pass the salt!

[-jk]

This discussion has gone off the policy rails again.

-jk