Duke announces non-conference schedule

[jimsumner]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=211064991&DB_OEM_ID=4200

http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1845&SPSID=22726

[sagegrouse]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=211064991&DB_OEM_ID=4200

http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1845&SPSID=22726

It looks like the "new" information, based on what was knows is --

Bill and Mary on Wed., Nov. 23 at Duke
Tennessee State on Mon., Dec. 19 at Duke
Elon on Wed., Dec. 21 at Greensboro

Major conference matches are --
Kansas (11/15) in NYC
Penn State (11/19) at Mohegan Sun Arena in CT
Cincinnati(AAC) or URI (CAA) (11/20) ditto
Michigan State (11/29) at Duke
Florida (12/06) in NYC
UNLV (12/10) in Las Vegas (OK, Mt. West is not "major")

[Tripping William]

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=211064991&DB_OEM_ID=4200

http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=4200&SPID=1845&SPSID=22726

Outside of Sparty, that home schedule be like "meh."

[Kedsy]

Outside of Sparty, that home schedule be like "meh."

Outside of Kansas and Michigan State, the entire schedule seems to be "meh."

[jimsumner]

Just got this update.

"Please note: after the initial release of this information, we were notified by the Hall of Fame that our opponent on Nov. 12 is not yet confirmed. This release reflects that change."

Adjust accordingly.

[Tripping William]

Outside of Kansas and Michigan State, the entire schedule seems to be "meh."

When in a charitable mood, I can get past the "meh" (barely) for Florida in MSG and UNLV in Vegas.

[hallcity]

Duke has only one game scheduled in December after 12/10. Of course, the exam break and a Christmas break accounts for much of this hiatus but that's still a lot of time without a game. I'm going to take a guess that Duke will have a couple of conference games in the week after Christmas.

And, I agree that this is most most meh home schedule I can remember. It's hard to get excited about any of the home games other than Michigan State and UNC. I'm sure Coach K will say that they're all important games because Duke is playing but the conference schedule is ridiculously unbalanced. Syracuse, Notre Dame, Louisville and U.Va only played on the road.

[OldPhiKap]

Duke playing UNLV can only mean one thing: Cleveland State is about to go on probation again.

The Christmas break in the schedule is probably so everyone can go to the Bowl game.

[gurufrisbee]

Don't sleep on Rhode Island.

[77devil]

When in a charitable mood, I can get past the "meh" (barely) for Florida in MSG and UNLV in Vegas.

Well, UNLV is a true road game for the whiners down 15-501.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Well, UNLV is a true road game for the whiners down 15-501.

Eh its not in the Thomas N Mack center so not really...to the whiners of course

[Billy Dat]

Don't sleep on Rhode Island.

Agree, they aren't a blue blood but Danny Hurley turned down big offers because he's got a big time team coming back.

CBS had them preseason 15
http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/duke-is-no-1-in-the-ridiculously-early-preseason-top-25-and-one/

They are expected to win the A10.

SI has them 25th
http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2016/04/07/duke-blue-devils-villanova-wildcats-way-too-early-top-25

Also, considering the strength of our conference the overall schedule is very strong. Going by SI, we'll be facing...
Kansas (5th), MSU (6th), UNC (8th), Louisville (10th), UVA (13th), Syracuse (15th), FSU (23rd)

I guess we'd have liked at least one more against either Kentucky, Villanova, Oregon, Wisconsin, Xavier, Indiana, Texas, Arizona, UCLA, USC, Gonzaga, etc.

[pfrduke]

Outside of Sparty, that home schedule be like "meh."

Last year's was like that too - Siena, Bryant, Yale, Utah State, Indiana, Buffalo, Georgia Southern.

[pfrduke]

Duke has only one game scheduled in December after 12/10. Of course, the exam break and a Christmas break accounts for much of this hiatus but that's still a lot of time without a game. I'm going to take a guess that Duke will have a couple of conference games in the week after Christmas.

And, I agree that this is most most meh home schedule I can remember. It's hard to get excited about any of the home games other than Michigan State and UNC. I'm sure Coach K will say that they're all important games because Duke is playing but the conference schedule is ridiculously unbalanced. Syracuse, Notre Dame, Louisville and U.Va only played on the road.

I see two games - 12/19 against Tennessee State and 12/21 against Elon. But, in any event, because the Final Four is on the early side this year, to fit in a 10-week conference season conference play has to start the week of 12/26, so your suspicion is almost certainly correct.

[1999ballboy]

And just like that, NBC sports has published an article trashing our non-conference schedule.

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2016/07/13/dukes-unimpressive-non-conference-schedule-bad-for-the-sport/

Very weak IMO. They offer no comparisons to other programs' schedules and knock us for Florida and UNLV having down years, despite admitting that that's not our fault. Anyway, the early season games are partly for figuring out our rotation and schematics for conference play.

[kAzE]

And just like that, NBC sports has published an article trashing our non-conference schedule.

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2016/07/13/dukes-unimpressive-non-conference-schedule-bad-for-the-sport/

Very weak IMO. They offer no comparisons to other programs' schedules and knock us for Florida and UNLV having down years, despite admitting that that's not our fault. Anyway, the early season games are partly for figuring out our rotation and schematics for conference play.

I have no idea what this guy is talking about. There are ACC games in December, January, and February. You know, that conference that has 4 hall of fame coaches and Tony Bennett and Jim Larranaga teams? There will be plenty of awesome games to watch outside of March. He just sounds like a Duke hater trying to get clicks and get more people to hate on Duke. He's trying so hard to imply that Duke is bad for college basketball. Give me a break. 100% garbage article.

[OldPhiKap]

And just like that, NBC sports has published an article trashing our non-conference schedule.

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2016/07/13/dukes-unimpressive-non-conference-schedule-bad-for-the-sport/

Very weak IMO. They offer no comparisons to other programs' schedules and knock us for Florida and UNLV having down years, despite admitting that that's not our fault. Anyway, the early season games are partly for figuring out our rotation and schematics for conference play.

Not sure what they want. We are in the ACC-B#? Challenge and get a top draw, and in the deal with KY/Kansas/Sparty. So that's two marquee top ten games (usually) in the first few weeks of the season. Then into the heart of the conference schedule, a conference which happens to be pretty damn good.

K schedules to get his teams ready for the tournament, and with an eye towards recruiting. Five National Championships and 52 NBA Draft selections later (31 in the first round), I'd say our scheduling under Coach K is just about perfect.

But hey, I'm sure some guy over at NBC Sports probably knows better.

[Billy Dat]

Dauster feeling the heat

Rob Dauster ‏@RobDauster 13m13 minutes ago
People seem to be reading this as a shot at Duke. It's not. Duke's 'meh' schedule is a sympton, not the problem.

Based on this feedback, Dauster beefed up the explanation as to why this is a college basketball wide problem and he makes a lot of sense in doing so. It doesn't mean there is a good solution. Football is different because there are so few games and each outcome is huge. As a college basketball writer, he bemoans the fact that after the initial spate of great games to start the season, there is little to command the attention of the casual fan between Thanksgiving and the start of league play. But, I'd argue that football is so popular that DIII games, if nationally televised, might outdraw meh college basketball games.

[1999ballboy]

None of that erases the fact that he chose to call out Duke over dozens of other programs with the same "problem" because anti-Duke articles are effective clickbait.

[Pghdukie]

How much, if any, BB games does NBC televise ? I think this guy is just trying to make a name for himself.

[OldPhiKap]

Dauster feeling the heat

Rob Dauster ‏@RobDauster 13m13 minutes ago
People seem to be reading this as a shot at Duke. It's not. Duke's 'meh' schedule is a sympton, not the problem.

Based on this feedback, Dauster beefed up the explanation as to why this is a college basketball wide problem and he makes a lot of sense in doing so. It doesn't mean there is a good solution. Football is different because there are so few games and each outcome is huge. As a college basketball writer, he bemoans the fact that after the initial spate of great games to start the season, there is little to command the attention of the casual fan between Thanksgiving and the start of league play. But, I'd argue that football is so popular that DIII games, if nationally televised, might outdraw meh college basketball games.

There is an easy solution, Mr. Dauster. Go back to the days when the season did not start until after Thanksgiving, and even then you only had a few tournaments in Hawaii, Alaska, etc.

But TV doesn't want that, and mega-conferences mean that a larger part of the schedule goes to conference games (we played 18 conference games last year during the regular season, as opposed to the 14 when I was at Duke and the 16 when FSU joined. Although 4 extra games may not sound like a lot, that's two weeks-worth of games.) And what caused the rise of the mega-conferences, Mr. Dauster? Oh yeah -- television contracts.

Television is part of the beast that caused this longer schedule and the conference consolidation; they can't complain that their stretched calendar produces some watered-down games. "I want more cake, and I want it to be tastier too"

And if you didn't mean to focus on Duke, well -- don't write a whole column about us.

[1999ballboy]

Wow, this guy's proving to be a bigger jerk than I even thought he would be. Twitter meltdown in progress.

[Pghdukie]

Like I said earlier - what a jerk. Again, trying to make a name for himself. Maybe he's trying out for that all important job interview at Natl Inquirer!

[DukieTiger]

There is an easy solution, Mr. Dauster. Go back to the days when the season did not start until after Thanksgiving, and even then you only had a few tournaments in Hawaii, Alaska, etc.

But TV doesn't want that, and mega-conferences mean that a larger part of the schedule goes to conference games (we played 18 conference games last year during the regular season, as opposed to the 14 when I was at Duke and the 16 when FSU joined. Although 4 extra games may not sound like a lot, that's two weeks-worth of games.) And what caused the rise of the mega-conferences, Mr. Dauster? Oh yeah -- television contracts.

Television is part of the beast that caused this longer schedule and the conference consolidation; they can't complain that their stretched calendar produces some watered-down games. "I want more cake, and I want it to be tastier too"

And if you didn't mean to focus on Duke, well -- don't write a whole column about us.

The other thing that I think gets overlooked, and this goes for CFB and CBB, is that these "watered-down" games are a real boon to the smaller schools. I know for a fact that Clemson, my alma mater, will go out of its way to play a smaller in-state school each year in football. Yes, part of that is that they can't schedule a tough game each week, that would be a competitive disadvantage at the national (CFP) level. But an equally big part of it is that it's a way to support other state schools financially. Playing a major conference team in football is a significant windfall for a small athletics department.

In basketball, I'm not sure of the monetary incentive. However, many of these early season "cupcake" games are against teams that have legitimate conference championship hopes, which means they have a real hope of making the NCAAT and upsetting a team like Duke. How often do we hear the coach of a team who just lost by 30 in Cameron talk about what a great experience it was for his guys? The smaller teams benefit competitively, and it gives Duke a chance to develop some of its back-of-the-rotation guys.

So we could bemoan the fact that there aren't that many interesting games in December. But we could also remember that this is Finals time and Christmas break, and as you said- the reason they're playing this many games to begin with is because of TV programming.

Regarding the schedule itself, it doesn't seem as bottom-heavy as recent years where Duke played multiple teams ranked sub-250 in KenPom. I guess the one thing that might be missing is a mid-major of the quality of a Yale, but as others have mentioned, Rhode Island could be it.

I'm pretty excited overall, while also feeling that it would be a disappointment to get through that schedule with more than one loss.

[OldPhiKap]

The other thing that I think gets overlooked, and this goes for CFB and CBB, is that these "watered-down" games are a real boon to the smaller schools. I know for a fact that Clemson, my alma mater, will go out of its way to play a smaller in-state school each year in football. Yes, part of that is that they can't schedule a tough game each week, that would be a competitive disadvantage at the national (CFP) level. But an equally big part of it is that it's a way to support other state schools financially. Playing a major conference team in football is a significant windfall for a small athletics department.

In basketball, I'm not sure of the monetary incentive. However, many of these early season "cupcake" games are against teams that have legitimate conference championship hopes, which means they have a real hope of making the NCAAT and upsetting a team like Duke. How often do we hear the coach of a team who just lost by 30 in Cameron talk about what a great experience it was for his guys? The smaller teams benefit competitively, and it gives Duke a chance to develop some of its back-of-the-rotation guys.

So we could bemoan the fact that there aren't that many interesting games in December. But we could also remember that this is Finals time and Christmas break, and as you said- the reason they're playing this many games to begin with is because of TV programming.

Regarding the schedule itself, it doesn't seem as bottom-heavy as recent years where Duke played multiple teams ranked sub-250 in KenPom. I guess the one thing that might be missing is a mid-major of the quality of a Yale, but as others have mentioned, Rhode Island could be it.

I'm pretty excited overall, while also feeling that it would be a disappointment to get through that schedule with more than one loss.

I agree with all of this. Our "non-marquee" games (more accurate term than the one I used in my rant) tend to be the kind of teams you play in the first and second rounds of the NCAA. And with our recent string of younger teams, playing a smart, veteran team of that ilk is great for teaching our kids what to expect. We generally play the winner of the D-II (or whatever its called) as well as teams, as you say, who will likely be competitive for their mid-major ticket to the big dance.

Slight aside -- Littlejohn is my favorite conference venue away from Cameron, and that was before the renovations. I really recommend a Duke game at Clemson for anyone who can make it. Incredible atmosphere, friendly fans as long as you aren't wearing Gamecock gear. (Football too -- beautiful view of Lake Hartwell from the North stands -- but that's not always as competitive as the basketball games. Cut's working on it though).

Oh, and for Pete's sake -- beat the damn Tar Heels in Chapel Hill next opportunity!

[SCMatt33]

So a couple of thoughts on that Dauster article. He never actually called the schedule bad or anything. He laments the large number of very meh games and correctly points out that a) some of the neutral site games don't appear as good as they have in the past, and b) there's a lot of low and mid major games. But he never really blasts the team for doing it. Maybe the update softens what he said earlier since I only read it after that, but I think most of it gets framed in terms of the headline, the one thing that explicitly calls it "bad". I'd love to know if Dauster actually wrote or even approved that headline. I mean, in the meat of it, his sentiments weren't that different than what I've seen here before this. People were disappointed with the tourney field in Connecticut, lamented that recent events changed the outlook of UNLV, and no one was super excited about Florida outside the White family connection.

As for my thoughts, I think one big factor not mentioned is conference expansion. When you schedule 6 or 7 meh games out of 13 it looks like a much bigger deal than 6 or 7 out of 15. But non conference schedules get evaluated in a vacuum which I think is idiotic. No coach builds his schedule that way. They look at the whole thing, what they want out of it, then build around the parts they can't control (Conference, Challenges, and to a lesser extent preseason tourneys).

[sammy3469]

FWIW, it looks like Gov Cuomo nixed Albany going to Cameron for that Nov 12th date because of HB2 and also forced Marist to back out today. So I guess they're still looking for a replacement for that date. I wonder if they had problems with any other teams coming in for this reason.


http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2016/07/gov_andrew_cuomo_nixes_albany_game_at_duke_over_no rth_carolinas_hb2_law.html

[Olympic Fan]

Just to break the schedule down:

-- Duke will play five games against teams in the ESPN preseason top 10 (two at home, two on the road and one neutral): No. 4 Kansas, No. 5 Virginia, No. 6 UNC (twice), No. 10 Michigan State

-- Duke will play either nine or 10 games against teams in the ESPN preseason top 25 (depending on whether we get No. 21 Rhode Island or unranked Cincinnati in the finals of the Hall of Fame tipoff classic). In addition, Duke plays one game against one of ESPN's honorable mention: No. 13 Louisville, No. 23 FSU (twice), No. 25 Syracuse and HM Virginia Tech.

-- Duke will play seven non-conference patsies: Grand Canyon, William & Mary (although they did beat State at State last year), App State, Maine, Tennessee State, Elon and our second round game in the Tipoff Classic (Marist?). I would say that two of our non-conference games are gimmies too -- home games with Boston College and Georgia Tech.

-- That's more than half the schedule, either 18 or 19 games against either ranked opponents (8 or 9 games) or patsies (7 games). The rest are against teams with varying abilities. I would break them up:

-- Either seven or eight games against strong unranked opponents: NC State (I know they are going to be top 25 in at least one major preseason publication). Virginia Tech (an ESPN honorable mention top 25), Miami (twice), Notre Dame, Pitt, Clemson (with Blossomgame back) and maybe Cincinnati (if we don't get Rhode Island in the Tipoff Classic).

I agree that UNLV appears to be in shambles after a ton of offseason defections, but I think Florida is expecting to be better in Mike White's second season. I recently read a story suggesting that Penn State has strong hopes for an NCAA Tournament bid this season.

-- There are also two games with Wake Forest I would suggest that the game in Durham shapes up as a gimmie, but the game in Winston is usually very competitive.

Overall, we balance our ranked opponents (9 or 10 games) with our gimmies (9 or 10 games, depending on wake at Durham). In the middle are 11 or 12 games against solid opponents.

It looks like a pretty solid, balanced schedule to me. If You want to complain about the home slate -- well, Duke gets No. 6 UNC, No. 10 Michigan State and No. 23 FSU at home, along with near top 25 NC State and near top 25 Miami, plus very solid opponents in Pitt and Clemson. I agree that the non-conference slate -- beyond Michigan State -- is pretty lame.

PS I used the ESPN preseason ratings, but personally, I think Virginia Tech, N.C. State, Miami and Pitt will all be better than Syracuse ... and I'm on record as thinking Louisville will be better than UNC or Virginia.

[hallcity]

Of the 9 or 10 games against teams with preseason rankings, I believe that 7 or 8 are on the road or at a neutral site.

[Blue in the Face]

FWIW, it looks like Gov Cuomo nixed Albany going to Cameron for that Nov 12th date because of HB2 and also forced Marist to back out today. So I guess they're still looking for a replacement for that date. I wonder if they had problems with any other teams coming in for this reason.


http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2016/07/gov_andrew_cuomo_nixes_albany_game_at_duke_over_no rth_carolinas_hb2_law.html
Marist is a private school - if they decline an invitation to play at Duke, that's their choice, but it's not forced upon them by the Governor's executive order.

[Olympic Fan]

Of the 9 or 10 games against teams with preseason rankings, I believe that 7 or 8 are on the road or at a neutral site.

Duke will play Michigan State, UNC and FSU at home.

UNC, Virginia, Louisville, Syracuse and FSU on the road

Kansas and (maybe) Rhode Island on neutral courts.

So vs. preseason ranked teams -- 3 at home, 1 or 2 neutral and 5 on the road

[OldPhiKap]

Duke will play Michigan State, UNC and FSU at home.

UNC, Virginia, Louisville, Syracuse and FSU on the road

Kansas and (maybe) Rhode Island on neutral courts.

So vs. preseason ranked teams -- 3 at home, 1 or 2 neutral and 5 on the road

STOP CITING FACTS!!!!! Duke has a soft schedule and, generally, sucks. Don't buck the narrative with actual real stuff.

(Virtual Sporkz, must spread love and all)

[English]

STOP CITING FACTS!!!!! Duke has a soft schedule and, generally, sucks. Don't buck the narrative with actual real stuff.

(Virtual Sporkz, must spread love and all)

OPK, you're missing the whole point--Duke has a soft schedule, AND IS BAD FOR THE SPORT OF COLLEGE BASKETBALL. C'mon, pay attention!

[OldPhiKap]

OPK, you're missing the whole point--Duke has a soft schedule, AND IS BAD FOR THE SPORT OF COLLEGE BASKETBALL. C'mon, pay attention!

Nae, bad for humanity. Good catch.

[dyedwab]

Look, I get this issue.

Fundamentally, we play almost no inter-conference games in opponents' home arenas...and we tend to host teams that are a level below us at Cameron. I understand why this is - and if I were Duke and Coach K, I'd probably do the same thing. But as a college basketball fan, I miss big matchups in home arenas. I liked playing Kansas and Danny Manning in Allen Fieldhouse, and UoA in Tucson, and UCLA at Pauley, etc. and I enjoyed hosting LSU and Shaq in mid Feb, and Kansas, and other major conference rivals.

Things are mitigated for me a lot due to conference expansion - Notre Dame, Louisville, Syracuse were great teams to schedule outside of the conference when they weren't ACC members. And the conference expansion has made scheduling more compressed.

Anyway, I still wish we had a home and home against, say, Gonzaga, or, Kansas, or UMichigan or someone like those teams- because as a fan, I think they are fun matchups in great settings.

[buddy]

The problem with the "meh" home schedule is not so much the non-conference part, but the conference part. The unbalanced schedule gave us several terrific home games last year, not so much this year. I don't blame coach for the non-conference schedule. Ratings matter, wins matter, and when your conference schedule leaves you with tough games on the road and less tough at home, you have to make do. I would love to see more multi-year home-and-away with premier programs, but the realities of tournament seeding don't permit it.

[OldPhiKap]

The problem with the "meh" home schedule is not so much the non-conference part, but the conference part. The unbalanced schedule gave us several terrific home games last year, not so much this year. I don't blame coach for the non-conference schedule. Ratings matter, wins matter, and when your conference schedule leaves you with tough games on the road and less tough at home, you have to make do. I would love to see more multi-year home-and-away with premier programs, but the realities of tournament seeding don't permit it.

I think there's something to this, agreed.

And part of the related problem, at least for me, is the lack of history with some of these teams. Duke v. Pitt may be a good game for example, but it doesn't light a fire under me. I just don't care. It's not like back in the day, where you had home and away games with the same seven opponents every year and you saw their players in game after game, year after year.

[ChillinDuke]

Look, I get this issue.

Fundamentally, we play almost no inter-conference games in opponents' home arenas...and we tend to host teams that are a level below us at Cameron. I understand why this is - and if I were Duke and Coach K, I'd probably do the same thing. But as a college basketball fan, I miss big matchups in home arenas. I liked playing Kansas and Danny Manning in Allen Fieldhouse, and UoA in Tucson, and UCLA at Pauley, etc. and I enjoyed hosting LSU and Shaq in mid Feb, and Kansas, and other major conference rivals.

Things are mitigated for me a lot due to conference expansion - Notre Dame, Louisville, Syracuse were great teams to schedule outside of the conference when they weren't ACC members. And the conference expansion has made scheduling more compressed.

Anyway, I still wish we had a home and home against, say, Gonzaga, or, Kansas, or UMichigan or someone like those teams- because as a fan, I think they are fun matchups in great settings.

A lot of us get the issue. But the issue with your issue is that those teams don't exist anymore. Today's Shaquille O'Neal doesn't stay at LSU for 3 years, and 2-time Conference POY Danny Manning doesn't stay at Kansas for his senior season and the Duke game in Allen. No chance.

The times have fundamentally changed. Teams don't have the sort of continuity ("Is that guy still in school?!") that OPK old man rant's about above. So you're left with scheduling games, well in advance of the year it will be played, with no insight into a team's makeup. And you're left with games like Florida and UNLV in comparative sorry states to where they were when they were lined up. Granted, Florida is at a neutral site. But UNLV is in Vegas - you can't tell me that's not essentially a true road game (although ESPN, and some nitpickers, will point out it's not on UNLV's campus and thus technically neutral).

So back to those hystorical games you noted, if those games are scheduled without those hypothetically lost players (Shaq / Manning), and LSU or Kansas gets throttled by Duke because they lost key pieces to the team (note: they both lost anyway with those players), then those respective teams face a different sort of backlash - humiliation and/or fan irritation. You're damned if you schedule them and damned if you don't.

Then there's the issue of revenue. I don't know exactly how it works, but I imagine the marquee matchups get major money for playing at major arenas (and not on campus). Shirking those kind of dollars causes issues athletic-department wide. There was no Title IX back when Manning was at Kansas (I presume; and even if it did, I assume the amount of sports offered back then wasn't quite as robust - but I could be wrong).

And the list of issues goes on and on.

To simplify the matter(s), I liken the whole thing to high stakes poker. The two best poker players in the world don't want to play each other. Why should they - it's high risk, low reward? The only possible outcome is one of the best loses and the other remains the best (which he/she already was). Instead, the path of least resistance is to play other non-best players - this way they can both win. Now once in a while, in a tournament setting or in a major headliner, you'll get to see the best play the best - and then they square off. But in the meantime / "normal" time, why should they? Look at boxing too for similarities.

Frankly, I agree with you more than I don't. I guess I just look at the whole thing as this is the current state of things. If someone out there is able to create some construct that is able to pit Duke (or any major power) vs another behemoth on campus, with regularity, I'd unquestioningly support such a thing. And based on what others here (and the media) continually moan about, I'd imagine countless others would too.

So why hasn't it happened?

- Chillin

[Neals384]

In the past, Duke has sometimes scheduled a game in or near a senior player's home. Example: playing Oregon in Portland during Singler's senior year. This year, no senior game in Dallas for Matt. Could perhaps have scheduled SMU.

[MartyClark]

Somebody with authority, please ask Duke to schedule a 2 for 1 series with my Colorado Buffaloes. I'm sure the Buffs would travel to Durham twice in exchange for one game in Boulder or Denver.

[sagegrouse]

In the past, Duke has sometimes scheduled a game in or near a senior player's home. Example: playing Oregon in Portland during Singler's senior year. This year, no senior game in Dallas for Matt. Could perhaps have scheduled SMU.

UNLV in Las Vegas for Chase Jeter?

[sagegrouse]

But as a college basketball fan, I miss big matchups in home arenas. I liked playing Kansas and Danny Manning in Allen Fieldhouse, and UoA in Tucson, and UCLA at Pauley, etc. and I enjoyed hosting LSU and Shaq in mid Feb, and Kansas, and other major conference rivals.



Coach K has a long memory, and so do I. At Arizona in 1991, Greg Koubek hits a three-point shot in OT that would have won the game; the refs only awarded a "two," even though he was well beyond the line. We lost in the second OT. I don't think K is interested in playing an away game in the PAC 12 again.

[jimsumner]

Coach K has a long memory, and so do I. At Arizona in 1991, Greg Koubek hits a three-point shot in OT that would have won the game; the refs only awarded a "two," even though he was well beyond the line. We lost in the second OT. I don't think K is interested in playing an away game in the PAC 12 again.

The officiating was so bad in a 1978 Duke loss at Southern Cal that Duke actually received a formal letter of apology.

[Dev11]

In the past, Duke has sometimes scheduled a game in or near a senior player's home. Example: playing Oregon in Portland during Singler's senior year. This year, no senior game in Dallas for Matt. Could perhaps have scheduled SMU.

I believe the stipulation is that you get such a game if the team hasn't traveled to your home region while you've been in school. Matt Jones has some decent memories of Houston from 2015.

[dyedwab]

A lot of us get the issue. But the issue with your issue is that those teams don't exist anymore. Today's Shaquille O'Neal doesn't stay at LSU for 3 years, and 2-time Conference POY Danny Manning doesn't stay at Kansas for his senior season and the Duke game in Allen. No chance.

The times have fundamentally changed. Teams don't have the sort of continuity ("Is that guy still in school?!") that OPK old man rant's about above. So you're left with scheduling games, well in advance of the year it will be played, with no insight into a team's makeup. And you're left with games like Florida and UNLV in comparative sorry states to where they were when they were lined up. Granted, Florida is at a neutral site. But UNLV is in Vegas - you can't tell me that's not essentially a true road game (although ESPN, and some nitpickers, will point out it's not on UNLV's campus and thus technically neutral).

So back to those hystorical games you noted, if those games are scheduled without those hypothetically lost players (Shaq / Manning), and LSU or Kansas gets throttled by Duke because they lost key pieces to the team (note: they both lost anyway with those players), then those respective teams face a different sort of backlash - humiliation and/or fan irritation. You're damned if you schedule them and damned if you don't.

Then there's the issue of revenue. I don't know exactly how it works, but I imagine the marquee matchups get major money for playing at major arenas (and not on campus). Shirking those kind of dollars causes issues athletic-department wide. There was no Title IX back when Manning was at Kansas (I presume; and even if it did, I assume the amount of sports offered back then wasn't quite as robust - but I could be wrong).

And the list of issues goes on and on.

To simplify the matter(s), I liken the whole thing to high stakes poker. The two best poker players in the world don't want to play each other. Why should they - it's high risk, low reward? The only possible outcome is one of the best loses and the other remains the best (which he/she already was). Instead, the path of least resistance is to play other non-best players - this way they can both win. Now once in a while, in a tournament setting or in a major headliner, you'll get to see the best play the best - and then they square off. But in the meantime / "normal" time, why should they? Look at boxing too for similarities.

Frankly, I agree with you more than I don't. I guess I just look at the whole thing as this is the current state of things. If someone out there is able to create some construct that is able to pit Duke (or any major power) vs another behemoth on campus, with regularity, I'd unquestioningly support such a thing. And based on what others here (and the media) continually moan about, I'd imagine countless others would too.

So why hasn't it happened?

- Chillin



Let me separate issues here - I understand everything you are saying. But this isn't about the fact the we don't have Danny Manning for 4 years or Shaq for 3. That is entirely separate from scheduling games at opponents home arenas. Florida and UNLV don't fit that model here. I understand it, but I lament it, and wish we could schedule more than one high major game a year at an OOC opponent.
"
Also - Title IX has existed since 1972 - it certainly existed during Manning's era. And, yes, teams get more $ from big arenas at neutral sites - I mean back a decade and a half ago, Duke basically operated the MSG games as home games (literally). And the amount of TV $$$ is the dominant factor in all college basketball scheduling. But my guess is that ESPN would love to have Duke play Kansas at Allen Field House, and promote the living hell out of it, and then have Kansas do a return trip to Cameron the next year and promote the living hell out that.

And let's not be naive. Duke (and a few other programs) can pretty much do what they want when it come to scheduling. We could play anyone we wanted, any time we wanted, and any where we wanted during the OOC part of the schedule. And ESPN or CBS or FOX Sports would gladly cover the game. But the facts are the we used to schedule OOC road games in other teams gyms and we don't anymore. That's understandable for many reasons. I wish we were willing to change that.

[Olympic Fan]

The officiating was so bad in a 1978 Duke loss at Southern Cal that Duke actually received a formal letter of apology.

Just to follow up on this ...

Back in the old days (meaning the '40s and '50s), officiating was incredibly biased. Teams used local officials who protected the home teams.

Back when Everett Case dominated Tobacco Road, it worked both ways -- there is a reason no outside team won the Dixie Classic (and some great teams lost there) -- Case picked the officials. But the same reason has a lot to do with the fact that Case's teams always had problems in New York City. Duke saw that as late as 1968, when two New York officials took Duke out of a second-round NIT game with St. Peter's.

Over the years -- and with the growth of TV -- officiating got less biased in most of the country. But the West Coast (and also Hawaii) were notoriously slow to catch on. Playing a Pac 8/10/12 team on the road was always a gamble. The Pac 8/10/12 long had a rule forbidding the trading of officials -- in much of the country, the visiting team brought in their league's officials for big matchups ... but not in the Pac 8/10/12. You played a big game on a Pac 8/10-12 court and you were going to get jobbed (as Duke did at Southern Cal in '78 and at Arizona in 1991).

I'm not sure when that changed. In fact, I don't know for sure that it has ... although I think it probably has.

Not all that germane to the current debate about whether K ought to schedule more marque matchups home-and-home, just a historical note about the practice.

[msdukie]

Elon game is at Elon in the Greensboro Coliseum. Front page article is incorrect.

[Neals384]

I believe the stipulation is that you get such a game if the team hasn't traveled to your home region while you've been in school. Matt Jones has some decent memories of Houston from 2015.

Thanks, Dev11, how could I forget. Still, Houston is a long spit from De Soto, and many of Matt's hometown fans probably couldn't get tickets for that one.

[Eternal Outlaw]

Just to follow up on this ...

Back in the old days (meaning the '40s and '50s), officiating was incredibly biased. Teams used local officials who protected the home teams.

Back when Everett Case dominated Tobacco Road, it worked both ways -- there is a reason no outside team won the Dixie Classic (and some great teams lost there) -- Case picked the officials. But the same reason has a lot to do with the fact that Case's teams always had problems in New York City. Duke saw that as late as 1968, when two New York officials took Duke out of a second-round NIT game with St. Peter's.

Over the years -- and with the growth of TV -- officiating got less biased in most of the country. But the West Coast (and also Hawaii) were notoriously slow to catch on. Playing a Pac 8/10/12 team on the road was always a gamble. The Pac 8/10/12 long had a rule forbidding the trading of officials -- in much of the country, the visiting team brought in their league's officials for big matchups ... but not in the Pac 8/10/12. You played a big game on a Pac 8/10-12 court and you were going to get jobbed (as Duke did at Southern Cal in '78 and at Arizona in 1991).

I'm not sure when that changed. In fact, I don't know for sure that it has ... although I think it probably has.

Not all that germane to the current debate about whether K ought to schedule more marque matchups home-and-home, just a historical note about the practice.

Nothing has changed for the Pac, surprised anyone comes to the West coast to play, they sure aren't scared to screw people. Oklahoma in Eugene and more recently Wisconsin got screwed at Arizona State. These in football were they say one loss can end your season.

[gam7]

100 days until Countdown to Craziness.

[jimsumner]

There was one particular Pac 8/10/12 official named Booker Turner. Teams visiting the West Coast did not want to see Booker Turner show up.

[Spanarkel]

It looks like the "new" information, based on what was knows is --

Bill and Mary on Wed., Nov. 23 at Duke
Tennessee State on Mon., Dec. 19 at Duke
Elon on Wed., Dec. 21 at Greensboro

Major conference matches are --
Kansas (11/15) in NYC
Penn State (11/19) at Mohegan Sun Arena in CT
Cincinnati(AAC) or URI (CAA) (11/20) ditto
Michigan State (11/29) at Duke
Florida (12/06) in NYC
UNLV (12/10) in Las Vegas (OK, Mt. West is not "major")

URI is in the A-10(much better hoops league than the CAA)

[sagegrouse]

URI is in the A-10(much better hoops league than the CAA)

Thanks -- that's better. I looked it up and must have mis-keyed or mis-read the results.

[SlapTheFloor]

Any idea when tickets for the UNLV game will go on sale?

[gep]

Any idea when tickets for the UNLV game will go on sale?

I have the same question... not only that, but I'd like tickets in the Duke section. I posted on the Ticket Exchange board, and got a nice PM from one poster giving me all kinds of hints on getting tickets.

Any other ideas / information on the UNLV tickets would be very much appreciated.

[gep]

I have the same question... not only that, but I'd like tickets in the Duke section. I posted on the Ticket Exchange board, and got a nice PM from one poster giving me all kinds of hints on getting tickets.

Any other ideas / information on the UNLV tickets would be very much appreciated.

FYI... Duke / UNLV basketball tickets are available at a lot of those ticket sites. Interestingly, neither Duke or UNLV sites have tickets for the game yet(?) that I could find. My guess is that the game is neither school's "home game"? Also, game time is TBA.

[DU82]

FYI... Duke / UNLV basketball tickets are available at a lot of those ticket sites. Interestingly, neither Duke or UNLV sites have tickets for the game yet(?) that I could find. My guess is that the game is neither school's "home game"? Also, game time is TBA.

They went on sale today for Iron Dukes.

[Blue in the Face]

Marist replaces Albany in the hall of fame tip-off game 11/11.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/article95966162.html

[SCMatt33]

Marist replaces Albany in the hall of fame tip-off game 11/11.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/article95966162.html

This always seemed like the logical choice. Since Duke was already playing Grand Canyon, that left Brown and Marist as possibilities. Given that both Brown and Albany were scheduled to play Cincy, Brown would have had to give up the in-state game with Rhode Island to make that swap work. Marist will end up swapping either Rhode Island or Penn State, but I imagine that it will be Penn State who gets the Albany game since that was the one Marist had on the 11th originally.

[Olympic Fan]

The only surprising thing about this is that Duke will now open against Marist on Nov. 11, then play Grand Canyon on the 12th. Originally, Grand Canyon was the opener and Albany was on Nov. 12.

Duke has never before played either Marist or Grand Canyon ... Maine (Dec. 3) and Tennessee State (Dec. 19) are also first-time Duke foes.

By my count, that means Duke will have played 223 different division one programs over the years. My count may be a bit shaky because I had to filter out the non-Division One programs we've faced -- there were a lot of them in the pre-WWII era (I THINK just two in the Krzyzewski era, BYU-Hawaii in 1986 and Chaminade in 1997). In the near future, when I have more time, I'll try and make a list to Division One programs we've never faced.

Also, keep an eye out. The complete schedule ought to be released by the ACC in the next 10 days.

[DukeFanSince1990]

Marist replaces Albany in the hall of fame tip-off game 11/11.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/article95966162.html

Isn't that Niles Crane's ex-wife?

[Olympic Fan]

I may be the only person interesting in this trivia, but I like it, so bear with me. I was checking Duke's all-time record of opponents and as I noted yesterday, we now have four first-time Duke foes on the schedule (Marist, Grand Canyon, Maine and Tennessee State). A year ago, we added four newcomers to our all-time roster (Bryant, Siena, Utah State and Buffalo).

That still leaves well over 100 Division 1 teams that we have never faced.

From the Power 5 conferences, we've never faced Ole Miss, Nebraska, TCU, Texas Tech or Washington State.

I think the best all-time program that we've never faced is Houston ... either them or Wichita State. A few other teams we've never faced -- UTEP, St. Mary's, Illinois State, Austin Peay, Indiana State, Iona and Loyola Marymont. We've played every team in the Ivy except Dartmouth. The one current Division One conference we've never faced is the Summit. We've only played one game against the Western Athletic Conference (vs. New Mexico State) and two against the Big Sky.

On the other hand, we've played 282 games against Big Ten opponents and 177 against SEC foes. Our most frequent foes in those two leagues are ex-ACC members Maryland (177 games) and South Carolina (76 meetings). Aside from that, our most frequent non-ACC foe is Davidson (107 meetings) -- but for many, many years, we were both in the old Southern Conference. Same for George Washington (27 meetings), and West Virginia (25 meetings)

I think the most frequent Duke foes that were never conference co-members are Michigan and Temple (both 30 meetings), St. John's (22 meetings), East Carolina (21 meetings), Kentucky (20 meetings), Princeton (17 meetings), UCLA, Florida and Penn (16 meetings each), Georgetown, Tennessee and Vanderbilt (15 meetings each). We'll have our 13th meeting with Michigan State this season.

Just to be precise, Kentucky, Florida and Vanderbilt were briefly in the same conference with Duke from 1927-32, before the modern SEC split off the Southern Conference. That did produce three Kentucky and three Florida games, plus two Vanderbilt games (plus a handful more in the years just after the split of the league).

[Indoor66]

I may be the only person interesting in this trivia, but I like it, so bear with me. I was checking Duke's all-time record of opponents and as I noted yesterday, we now have four first-time Duke foes on the schedule (Marist, Grand Canyon, Maine and Tennessee State). A year ago, we added four newcomers to our all-time roster (Bryant, Siena, Utah State and Buffalo).

That still leaves well over 100 Division 1 teams that we have never faced.

From the Power 5 conferences, we've never faced Ole Miss, Nebraska, TCU, Texas Tech or Washington State.

I think the best all-time program that we've never faced is Houston ... either them or Wichita State. A few other teams we've never faced -- UTEP, St. Mary's, Illinois State, Austin Peay, Indiana State, Iona and Loyola Marymont. We've played every team in the Ivy except Dartmouth. The one current Division One conference we've never faced is the Summit. We've only played one game against the Western Athletic Conference (vs. New Mexico State) and two against the Big Sky.

On the other hand, we've played 282 games against Big Ten opponents and 177 against SEC foes. Our most frequent foes in those two leagues are ex-ACC members Maryland (177 games) and South Carolina (76 meetings). Aside from that, our most frequent non-ACC foe is Davidson (107 meetings) -- but for many, many years, we were both in the old Southern Conference. Same for George Washington (27 meetings), and West Virginia (25 meetings)

I think the most frequent Duke foes that were never conference co-members are Michigan and Temple (both 30 meetings), St. John's (22 meetings), East Carolina (21 meetings), Kentucky (20 meetings), Princeton (17 meetings), UCLA, Florida and Penn (16 meetings each), Georgetown, Tennessee and Vanderbilt (15 meetings each). We'll have our 13th meeting with Michigan State this season.

Just to be precise, Kentucky, Florida and Vanderbilt were briefly in the same conference with Duke from 1927-32, before the modern SEC split off the Southern Conference. That did produce three Kentucky and three Florida games, plus two Vanderbilt games (plus a handful more in the years just after the split of the league).

Historically it is probably a function of travel times before Jet planes and more money available after the 70's and 80's.

[rasputin]

I may be the only person interesting in this trivia, but I like it, so bear with me. I was checking Duke's all-time record of opponents and as I noted yesterday, we now have four first-time Duke foes on the schedule (Marist, Grand Canyon, Maine and Tennessee State). A year ago, we added four newcomers to our all-time roster (Bryant, Siena, Utah State and Buffalo).

That still leaves well over 100 Division 1 teams that we have never faced.

From the Power 5 conferences, we've never faced Ole Miss, Nebraska, TCU, Texas Tech or Washington State.

I think the best all-time program that we've never faced is Houston ... either them or Wichita State. A few other teams we've never faced -- UTEP, St. Mary's, Illinois State, Austin Peay, Indiana State, Iona and Loyola Marymont. We've played every team in the Ivy except Dartmouth. The one current Division One conference we've never faced is the Summit. We've only played one game against the Western Athletic Conference (vs. New Mexico State) and two against the Big Sky.

On the other hand, we've played 282 games against Big Ten opponents and 177 against SEC foes. Our most frequent foes in those two leagues are ex-ACC members Maryland (177 games) and South Carolina (76 meetings). Aside from that, our most frequent non-ACC foe is Davidson (107 meetings) -- but for many, many years, we were both in the old Southern Conference. Same for George Washington (27 meetings), and West Virginia (25 meetings)

I think the most frequent Duke foes that were never conference co-members are Michigan and Temple (both 30 meetings), St. John's (22 meetings), East Carolina (21 meetings), Kentucky (20 meetings), Princeton (17 meetings), UCLA, Florida and Penn (16 meetings each), Georgetown, Tennessee and Vanderbilt (15 meetings each). We'll have our 13th meeting with Michigan State this season.

Just to be precise, Kentucky, Florida and Vanderbilt were briefly in the same conference with Duke from 1927-32, before the modern SEC split off the Southern Conference. That did produce three Kentucky and three Florida games, plus two Vanderbilt games (plus a handful more in the years just after the split of the league).

You are most certainly NOT the only person interested in what you just posted. Thanks for the post.