Continuing With Coach Roof

[NYC Duke Fan]

There is no question that the football team is improving, at least offensively. Defense another story.

If Northwestern is Duke's only win of the season then it is time for Coach Roof to go. Actually, I think that Duke has gto win at least 3 more games for him to keep his job.

[RelativeWays]

I felt that the defense really only botched a couple of scores in this game, but a lot of it had to do with bad offensive production. Having an interception run back for a TD, and punting from your own 10 or 15 yard line doesn't give the defense alot to work with. They did have trouble stopping Wake on 3rd downs, but they did hold the Wake offense to 3 and outs when the Duke offense still had a chance to win the game in the 4th, the O didn't hold their end of the bargain.

At any rate, Roof and his staff is probably gone. He seems like a good guy and well liked, but wins are what matter in the end.

[JasonEvans]

I sincerely hope the adminstration at Duke is looking at more than Ws and Ls when deciding the fate of the football coaching staff. There are many, many other measures that are more important right now to a program trying to rise out of the depths as Duke is.

Look, I want to win as much as the next guy, but the fact that this team is fighting hard and staying in games is significant progress in my mind. Yeah, we have had a string of hard-luck losses this season, but merely being in games and competing is pretty notable considering where Duke has been this decade.

Is it enough progress to say Roof should certainly stay? I dunno. As I mentioned, there are other factors at play here-- not least of which is the question of who we would get to replace him. My only point in all this is that FOR NOW Duke does not need to be 100% hung up on wins and losses. I honestly think a solid case could be made for keeping coach if the team does not win another game... but if certain other things happen (such as us being competative in all our remaining games).

--Jason "just trying to be the voice of reason" Evans

[RelativeWays]

Virginia Tech will be a big test next week. I think it's honest to say that possibility of victory is remote and that VT defense is beastly, but they have not been an offensively explosive team (even most of the points scored against Clemson were from turnovers and special teams). It is paramount that Thad Lewis and the offense take care of the football. If they can keep a lid on TOs then they might can keep it close.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

With essentially the same players on a team that went 1-10 last year, Coach Jim Harbaugh has just engineered a victory by his team, Stanford, over USC. I would love to see what real coaching could do with what I think is finally a nucleus of talent. I am sick of the people that keep saying, "Have patience, have patience, these things take time." I agree, when you have limited coaching ability at the helm these things do take a lot of time. Sigh. I guess if Coach Roof is able to get a few more wins we will erect a building in his honor.

GO DUKE!

[CameronBlue]

I sincerely hope the adminstration at Duke is looking at more than Ws and Ls when deciding the fate of the football coaching staff. There are many, many other measures that are more important right now to a program trying to rise out of the depths as Duke is.

Look, I want to win as much as the next guy, but the fact that this team is fighting hard and staying in games is significant progress in my mind. Yeah, we have had a string of hard-luck losses this season, but merely being in games and competing is pretty notable considering where Duke has been this decade.

Is it enough progress to say Roof should certainly stay? I dunno. As I mentioned, there are other factors at play here-- not least of which is the question of who we would get to replace him. My only point in all this is that FOR NOW Duke does not need to be 100% hung up on wins and losses. I honestly think a solid case could be made for keeping coach if the team does not win another game... but if certain other things happen (such as us being competative in all our remaining games).

--Jason "just trying to be the voice of reason" Evans

The lone voice of reason, or at least one of a dwindling and ever-less vocal few.....This team has a heartbeat when at similar junctures in other seasons, Duke teams were void of passion, the spirit literally beaten out of them--D.O.A. It's a little...what...bizarre might be the word, but I've never felt prouder of this Duke team than when VinceO picked up the off-sides penalty trying to swat the center snap at the end of the game. You know these guys want to win desperately; I really felt for the team at that moment. The talent gap aside, it's not possible to gauge just how far Duke's confidence and collective will to win as a program had fallen when Roof took over. But it's plausible that a decade of consistently putrid football forged a legacy of losing that manifests itself in dark and devious ways: in the minds of the players, the fans, the coaches, the media, anyone within emotional reach of the program. Roof's not a football guru it seems apparent. But his job has been to rebuild the program in virtually every facet. He works hard and he hasn't given up and that is reflected in the effort of the team. Give him credit for trying everything in his power; I didn't delve into the details of the Fuqua plan he concocted but it sounds innovative on the surface of it. As stated earlier in the thread, you cannot measure Duke by the same standards as other programs, not yet. The program just has had too far to come. For the moment, Duke fans should be patient a little longer until the level of effort we've been seeing produces victories. We can't continue to come this close without pulling a couple out, it almost defies logic. Then let's see what sort of momentum a few W's generate.

For the record: Wherever Duke football goes from here, whatever plans the adminstration has in mind, I hope it doesn't include lowering the admission requirements. Tinkering with the admission standards of one of the world's leading universities is not a balanced response to playing losing football. I agree with others who've argued such a measure is not necessary to improve our fortunes on the field.

[jmb]

I would be inclined to agree with you were I not telling myself the same thing at the end of last season. We competed like hell against Wake, Bama, Miami, and UNC and I told myself we were THIS close to turning the corner. That's the exact thing I'm telling myself this year as well.

I imagine we're the only 5-loss team in the country who has been within a touchdown in the second half in each of our losses, but the fact is we're not putting W's in the ledger.

We have a smattering of really, really good football players who could be starting for a lot of competitive teams (e.g. Riley, Thad, Jomar Wright, Tauiliili, Vince, Bailey, Okpokoworuk, Marshall, Vinnie Rey, etc), but the players filling in the gaps between these guys are not getting the job done. Is that the players' responsibility or the coaches'?

I don't know, you tell me.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

It is too bad that to compete with Miami, Virginia Tech, Boston College, Maryland, and the rest of the ACC on a year on year out basis Roof has proven to me he does not have what it takes. I hope I am wrong and the team goes and wins the rest of its games. I doubt they will though. Coach Harbaugh was available to any Div 1 school who would have wanted him. The A.D. at Stanford had the foresight to bring him on board from San Diego. Our A.D. needs to take a similar bold move and bring someone else into the fold. I think he made a good hire in the wake of Coach G leaving women's basketball. Coach P seems like a good fit even though the team has yet to play a game. The football team has played many games. The football team has lost many games. The football team needs a new leader. I think Coach Roof is a wonderful man. I wish he were a louse because then saying these things would be a lot easier. I don't want people to lose their jobs! However, my heart bleeds Duke Blue. I hate the fact that those wonderful student-athletes who have decided to compete as football players at Duke have to put up with this.

If there is a kid with great SAT's, GPA, and an amazing football prowess--except for very limited situations, like maybe he does not want to go far from home or he is a Duke legacy--I fear we will almost always lose him to Stanford. Why come play at Duke? You can get an equal (arguably better, but probably not worse) education at Stanford, you will play for a Coach who knows what he is doing, oh and by the way, you will have a legitimate shot at upsetting USC or have other big wins on a year to year basis. At Duke you get a chance to get your eye poked out by Navy, called "Puke" routinely by ESPN radio guys, and be the laughing stock of the nation. Let's see, hmmm, where should I go play?

I believe the administration really does want football to succeed. I just think it has its head in the sand. The President of our esteemed University admitted that he blew it in how he handled the Lacrosse scandal. Maybe he can show some leadership--finally--in the wake of what is transpiring on the gridiron and tell his A.D. to get with the program. I don't think Duke has to lower any standards. In fact, I think Stanford has higher standards for its football team than we do. The difference is that they know how to put a program together. We just know how to higher assistants with no experience and haven't a clue and are in over their heads. I think we would be doing Coach Roof a favor by showing him the door. Maybe he can get some more experience as an assistant somewhere else and then be a really good head man or maybe he is going to always be unqualified for the job. Maybe a change of scenery would be good for him.

My goodness, I think I need basketball season to start more than I thought. To think I was looking forward to football season this year.

GO DUKE! GO DUKE FOOTBALL!

[Mabdul Doobakus]

The team is playing better than last year. We have more talent on the offensive side of the ball than I can remember in years. We're actually pretty fun to watch these days.

Roof has his flaws, no doubt, but, for me, if the team is better than last year I just can't see a reason to fire the guy. We're on an upward trend. If we get a new guy in there, to some extent, it's like starting all over again, and then we have to wait 3-4 years for the new coach to get "his guys" in the program. Let's see how things play out the rest of the season, but if we continue to show improvement, I think you have to give Roof another year to see if he continue this upward trend.

[Kewlswim]

The team is playing better than last year. We have more talent on the offensive side of the ball than I can remember in years. We're actually pretty fun to watch these days.

Roof has his flaws, no doubt, but, for me, if the team is better than last year I just can't see a reason to fire the guy. We're on an upward trend. If we get a new guy in there, to some extent, it's like starting all over again, and then we have to wait 3-4 years for the new coach to get "his guys" in the program. Let's see how things play out the rest of the season, but if we continue to show improvement, I think you have to give Roof another year to see if he continue this upward trend.

Hi,

I agree we seem to be on limited upward trend. I don't agree that it will take 3-4 years for the new coach to get "his guys" into the program for the program to show it can win. Why did Coach Tedford at Cal get the ship righted almost right away? Why did Coach Harbaugh get the ship righted at Stanford almost right away (heck he hasn't even been there a season yet)? This myth that it takes a long time to get football teams righted, I think, is perpetuated by teams that can never right themselves. Good coaching will right the ship. Great coaching and Duke might be able to do some really special things--with Roof's players or with players left by another coach.

GO DUKE!

[dukie8]

For the record: Wherever Duke football goes from here, whatever plans the adminstration has in mind, I hope it doesn't include lowering the admission requirements. Tinkering with the admission standards of one of the world's leading universities is not a balanced response to playing losing football. I agree with others who've argued such a measure is not necessary to improve our fortunes on the field.

i completely agree. i would rather never win another game than go the way of columbia and open the floodgates to the academically challenged.

[Kewlswim]

I felt that the defense really only botched a couple of scores in this game, but a lot of it had to do with bad offensive production. Having an interception run back for a TD, and punting from your own 10 or 15 yard line doesn't give the defense alot to work with. They did have trouble stopping Wake on 3rd downs, but they did hold the Wake offense to 3 and outs when the Duke offense still had a chance to win the game in the 4th, the O didn't hold their end of the bargain.

At any rate, Roof and his staff is probably gone. He seems like a good guy and well liked, but wins are what matter in the end.

Hi,

Remember this is Duke. Some coaches seem to stay around no matter the situation.

GO DUKE!

[dukie8]

The team is playing better than last year. We have more talent on the offensive side of the ball than I can remember in years. We're actually pretty fun to watch these days.

Roof has his flaws, no doubt, but, for me, if the team is better than last year I just can't see a reason to fire the guy. We're on an upward trend. If we get a new guy in there, to some extent, it's like starting all over again, and then we have to wait 3-4 years for the new coach to get "his guys" in the program. Let's see how things play out the rest of the season, but if we continue to show improvement, I think you have to give Roof another year to see if he continue this upward trend.

why is a new guy like starting over? do you mean like when pitino took over at louisville or parcells with the jets or larry brown with every team not named the knicks? going from a bad to a great coach makes an enormous difference.

[Kewlswim]

i completely agree. i would rather never win another game than go the way of columbia and open the floodgates to the academically challenged.

Hi Dukie8,

I think the academies and Stanford actually have HIGHER standards than we do. I am looking for the objective information and would welcome anyone providing it. There was an article about this a while back, I am not sure where.

Regardless, we can win without lowering any standards. Though standards do need to be changed. The standards that need to be changed are by the people who make the decision as to the coach to hire. Those people need to raise their standards and only bring excellence back to the University.

Furthermore, expectations need to be changed. We need someone who comes here with the idea that he EXPECTS to win. Not any of this, "It takes a long time to build a program...yadda yadda" I want someone who knows he is a brilliant coach and sooner rather than later if the troops follow his lead there will be victories a plenty. I said it a while back and I will say it again, I would love a guy with a chip on his shoulder the size of the rock of Gibraltar. Maybe an African-American coach who is coaching at a lower division school and never gets a break? Maybe Duke should give him that break? Maybe he will show people what's what. :D So what if he only stays a few years and then goes to Georgia or something, let him prove himself at Duke. Let's get the ball rolling in the right direction.

GO DUKE!

[VaDukie]

why is a new guy like starting over? do you mean like when pitino took over at louisville or parcells with the jets or larry brown with every team not named the knicks? going from a bad to a great coach makes an enormous difference.

If we could find a Pitino, Brown, or Parcells equivalent then that'd be great. But those guys are legends and unless we hit the lottery it's not very likely.

To quote Mr. Pitino "Steve Spurrier is not coming through that door"

Give Roof until the end of the year.

[Patrick Yates]

Last year, Stanford went 1-11, very comparable to Duke's 0-12. Last night, they went into USC stadium and knocked off a top 2 team.

How come Roof can't do something like this, given that Duke's academic standards for athlete admissions are lower than Stanford's?

At some point, fans have to acknowledge that some coaches take the players they have and get the max out of them, and some coaches do not.

Given how many on this board have touted Roof's recruiting efforts, how would anyone else here classify roof? A Maximizer or a Minimizer?

Patrick Yates

[Mabdul Doobakus]

Yeah, if you can find a big name coach who actually wants to be at Duke, that's one thing. You have to pursue that. But perhaps you'll be surprised to find that there aren't a lot of big name coaches lining up for the Duke position. Sure, you may be able to lure some no-name coordinator from a decent program, but you have no idea what you're getting there. This whole thing about Duke getting great coaching sounds terrific, but first you need a great coach who wants to come here.

For the first time in 5 years or so, we seem to be gathering momentum. I just don't know why you would choose now as the time to switch coaches, unless you're getting a known commodity--something I really have a hard time envisioning.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

Last year, Stanford went 1-11, very comparable to Duke's 0-12. Last night, they went into USC stadium and knocked off a top 2 team.

How come Roof can't do something like this, given that Duke's academic standards for athlete admissions are lower than Stanford's?

At some point, fans have to acknowledge that some coaches take the players they have and get the max out of them, and some coaches do not.

Given how many on this board have touted Roof's recruiting efforts, how would anyone else here classify roof? A Maximizer or a Minimizer?

Patrick Yates


Stanford has been in the Rose Bowl within the last decade. They have a much richer football tradition than Duke does. You're not talking about a team that has been a laughing stock for quite some time. I just think you can rebuild at Stanford a lot quicker than you can at Duke. It's not a fair compairson. As a similar example, Notre Dame might go 1-11 or 2-12 this year, but that doesn't really put them on an even playing field with Duke.

[4decadedukie]

Next season will determine if Ted stays or goes.

[YmoBeThere]

Stanford has been in the Rose Bowl within the last decade. They have a much richer football tradition than Duke does.

Hmmm, your definition of richer tradition puzzles me. I liken it to us being at the street corner figuring out what club to go to that evening. You have $50 in your wallet, I have a $20. You are richer than I at the moment, but to be honest, neither one of us is rich.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

As an engineer, I have rarely in my life used a Shakespeare quote.

I, part of the jury (not officially), am still out. I haven't seen all the evidence yet. I'm not going to jump to conclusions. My minimum requirement pre-season, my litmus test if you will, for keeping coach Coach Roof beyond this year was 3 wins with several close, competitive heart-breaking losses. Midway through the season we have one win and three close, competitive heart-breaking losses against decent teams. OK, maybe Miami isn't as decent as we thought given their disappointing loss to carolina yesterday.

Let's see how the next six games play out. Unless Bill Parcels wants to come out of the NFL's broadcast booth this month and take over, Roof will be here against the tar heels in November. And hopefully beat the heels for our (at least) third win of the season.

[JasonEvans]

Toi compare Stanford's situation in football this year with Duke's just leaves me shaking my head.

Do you folks really think Duke's football facilities are in the same ballpark as Stanford? Duke has been the laughing stock of college football for a decade, at least. Stanford has been a strong team in very recent memory and has a string of big name coaches at the helm including Bill freaking Walsh just a couple years ago. Comparing turning around Stanford with turning around Duke?!?!? Are you kidding? The Notre Dame comparison is appropriate here-- just becaues Notre Dame may only win about the same number of games this year as Duke does it does not mean the programs are in similar situations.

I would also add that everyone going bonkers today about Jim Harbaugh and the job he is doing at Stanford may be reading a bit too much into just one game. Stanford has been blown out in every other game they have played this year. There is a reason they were a 30+ point underdog to USC.

I hear that Harbaugh is doing a great job at turning that once proud program around, but the notion that he made some instant difference that has returned Stanford to solid success in one season is just false... and is merely the product of one game against one team. Taken in a larger context, Harbaugh and Stanford have a long way still to go. And, even if he had performed some single-season miracle, it would not mean Roof was some massive failure at Duke for failing to duplicate that miracle.

Patience people-- I ask again, what is lost by giving Roof more time given that his team appears to be showing progress?

--Jason "both sides of this debate have solid points and both care passionately... which is better than apathy!" Evans

[Mabdul Doobakus]

Hmmm, your definition of richer tradition puzzles me. I liken it to us being at the street corner figuring out what club to go to that evening. You have $50 in your wallet, I have a $20. You are richer than I at the moment, but to be honest, neither one of us is rich.

I didn't really define richer tradition. I just stated it. But the fact that they went to 5 bowl games in the 90's and were last in a bowl game in 2001 means they're not as far gone as Duke.

Duke has made 2 bowl games since 1960 and didn't win either. They won the ACC in 1989.

Stanford has made 11 bowl games in that span. They went 6-5. They won the Pac-10 in 1970, 1971, 1992, 1999.

Duke was probably better in the 30's, 40's, and 50's, but that's pretty much ancient history.

Stanford also owns a permanent piece of college football history with that Stanford band play. I think the first thing people think of when you mention Duke football is Coach K. If they're really knowledgable, maybe they think of Spurrier, but my guess is they're usually just confused. Duke football? Seriously?

[YmoBeThere]

Mabdul - Thanks for clarifying, I was relying too much on anecdote.

[YmoBeThere]

There is a reason they were a 30+ point underdog to USC.

My sources indicated a 41 point line, but I can't be 100% positive.

It would be nice if we could catch lightning in a bottle, it would give us something more to talk about than moral victories.

[dukie8]

My sources indicated a 41 point line, but I can't be 100% positive.

It would be nice if we could catch lightning in a bottle, it would give us something more to talk about than moral victories.

they were 41 point underdogs and were using a back-up quarterback who had thrown 3 passes in his CAREER going into the game. that game should silence the roof supporters who believe that it takes years to work up to an acc win.

[Lavabe]

I didn't really define richer tradition. I just stated it. But the fact that they went to 5 bowl games in the 90's and were last in a bowl game in 2001 means they're not as far gone as Duke.

Duke has made 2 bowl games since 1960 and didn't win either. They won the ACC in 1989.

Stanford has made 11 bowl games in that span. They went 6-5. They won the Pac-10 in 1970, 1971, 1992, 1999.

Duke was probably better in the 30's, 40's, and 50's, but that's pretty much ancient history.

Stanford also owns a permanent piece of college football history with that Stanford band play. I think the first thing people think of when you mention Duke football is Coach K. If they're really knowledgable, maybe they think of Spurrier, but my guess is they're usually just confused. Duke football? Seriously?

Stanford: Plunkett, Bill Walsh (remember Guy Benjamin?), John Elway, etc...

It's the birthplace of the West Coast offense (whatever that is).

It was also host to a Super Bowl ... back when they had a track around the football field!;)
Cheers,
Lavabe

[JasonEvans]

they were 41 point underdogs and were using a back-up quarterback who had thrown 3 passes in his CAREER going into the game. that game should silence the roof supporters who believe that it takes years to work up to an acc win.

Right, because Stanford's situation = Duke's situation.

And, even if they were coming at this rebuilding exercise from a similar place, we should not let the fact that they caught lightning in a bottle in one game sway us into thinking Duke is somehow a failure because we have not done the same thing. As I stated earlier, Stanford has been blown out in every single other game they have played this year.

You are obsessed with wins. The path is irrelevant to you, only the final score matters. IMO, that is a short-sighted way of measuring progress and a formula for long-term failure.

--Jason "I've made my point enough and Dukie8 has certainly made his feelings on this known-- I welcome others to chime in but unless I have something new to say, I am done with this conversation" Evans

[hughgs]

There is no question that the football team is improving, at least offensively. Defense another story.

If Northwestern is Duke's only win of the season then it is time for Coach Roof to go. Actually, I think that Duke has gto win at least 3 more games for him to keep his job.

I'm going to assume that everyone who wants Roof to be fired if he doesn't meet some threshold of wins feel that there are coaches out there could coach Duke better than Roof.

So, my challenge to those people is to identify those coaches, why they would be better, why they would leave their current situation, and most importantly tell us why you think they would come to Duke. Four criteria for a better coach.

[killerleft]

The Stanford win was great for Stanford. Trying to use it as a reason Coach Roof must go is silly. By that measure Fred Goldsmith's first year at Duke would be quite relevant, too, wouldn't it?

The rest of the season will be a great indicator of whether we have made some headway or not. If we can actually compete, rather than show up and get blown out, I would consider that real progress. If we come up with a win or two, then Roof certainly should continue.

Ted Roof has shown great character. The team is reflecting that.

The revolving-door approach sure hasn't done us much good lately.

[Bluedawg]

If Northwestern is Duke's only win of the season then it is time for Coach Roof to go. Actually, I think that Duke has gto win at least 3 more games for him to keep his job.

Sorry, but i cannot agree with this. I know I'm late logging on here and I'm sure this has been said 2-3 time on this tread, but I believe in looking at the totality of a team, not just the score board.

let's look down the street at State. i was a big advocate for Chuck leaving regardless of the fact that he is one of the winninest coaches at State because the team was showing no growth. I think they would have bombed this year even with chuck there, O'Brien is just suffering through Chuck's mess.

TR took over a mess. he took over a team who would not have been competitive on a I-AA level and i challenge anyone to say they re not competitive this year. Forget the record, they have scored a mess of points. He took an offense who could not score on a I-AA team and they scored 43 points on Miami and the came back from a 33-9 deficit to lose by 5 points. When he took this team that 33-9 deficit would have just continued to grow.

I think he can put this team on the winning track, possibly not challenging for a national championship but they can challenge for an ACC championship and they can go to major bowls. All that has to happen is the administration has to took at the totality of the team.

*******************
Before 400 other people miss the point here by correcting me YES i know it wasn't Miami!

[YmoBeThere]

I'm going to assume that everyone who wants Roof to be fired if he doesn't meet some threshold of wins feel that there are coaches out there could coach Duke better than Roof.

So, my challenge to those people is to identify those coaches, why they would be better, why they would leave their current situation, and most importantly tell us why you think they would come to Duke. Four criteria for a better coach.

Okay, no idea if he would be interested, but how about

1) Frank Solich

2) Solid head coaching experience, he didn't win enough big games to retain his job at Nebraska. However, his record was good. Has done some nice things at Ohio U.

3) Playing in a lower level BCS league that won't play national TV games until their bowl game. ACC would give him the opportunity to get to a larger audience. At his age, I think that this would be his swan song, getting Duke to a bowl before stepping down from the game. Getting 3-4 wins season for several years would get him the chance to stay as long as he wanted?

4) See 3 above

[YmoBeThere]

He took an offense who could not score on a I-AA team and they scored 43 points on Miami and the came back from a 33-9 deficit to lose by 5 points. When he took this team that 33-9 deficit would have just continued to grow.

Huh, when was this? The only time we have scored 43 points against was Navy. Some other year, we lost 20-15 last year and 52-7 the year before that. Miami is having their own struggles right now too. There is no gold standard in the league any more. Not sure if it is parity or just a general decline in the overall level of play in the conference.

I think we should be looking at Vanderbilt(my other alma mater) and Stanford for our comparisons as they will have the same private school, tougher admissions hurdles to get over relative to State.

[Bluedawg]

Huh, when was this? The only time we have scored 43 points against was Navy. Some other year, we lost 20-15 last year and 52-7 the year before that. Miami is having their own struggles right now too. There is no gold standard in the league any more. Not sure if it is parity or just a general decline in the overall level of play in the conference.

I think we should be looking at Vanderbilt(my other alma mater) and Stanford for our comparisons as they will have the same private school, tougher admissions hurdles to get over relative to State.

OK...so i chose the wrong team..I made an error but my point is still solid. You keep bringing up Stanford and that has been gracefully shot down. I wasn't comparing Duke to State...I think it is unfair to compare Duke to anyone but Duke and Duke has grown. I used State as an example not a comparison.

However, the point on Miami i was working to, just got the points jumbled, is that regardless of the final score, they were in that game to the end, and i don't think anyone expected them to be.


the point of my post was that I think he can put this team on the winning track, possibly not challenging for a national championship but they can challenge for an ACC championship and they can go to major bowls. All that has to happen is the administration has to took at the totality of the team.

[YmoBeThere]

Not sure if I would highlight coming back from a 33-9 deficit to Navy to lose by three. I was in Vegas at the time and the line there was us +14.

There are three schools I think we should be looking at for comparison to see what they are doing, not because of where they are in rebuilding, or state of the program, but the operational constraints(academic standards, student body size, BCS conference). Now, obviously we do need to updgrade facilities...

Those schools are Vanderbilt, Northwestern, and Stanford.

[hughgs]

Okay, no idea if he would be interested, but how about

1) Frank Solich

2) Solid head coaching experience, he didn't win enough big games to retain his job at Nebraska. However, his record was good. Has done some nice things at Ohio U.

3) Playing in a lower level BCS league that won't play national TV games until their bowl game. ACC would give him the opportunity to get to a larger audience. At his age, I think that this would be his swan song, getting Duke to a bowl before stepping down from the game. Getting 3-4 wins season for several years would get him the chance to stay as long as he wanted?

4) See 3 above

I don't know Solich, but I'm willing to concede your first three points.

However, you don't know the answer to #4, since you have no idea if he would be interested in coming to Duke. And that's a big part of being able to hire a new coach at Duke.

[YmoBeThere]

you have no idea if he would be interested in coming to Duke. And that's a big part of being able to hire a new coach at Duke.

Agreed, but do any of us here really know? Unless someone is on a search committee it is all speculation unless they come out and say they want the job...

[killerleft]

Maybe part of the problem is comparing Duke with any other program. Would it be better to just set goals and try to reach them?

http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071007/NRSTAFF/710070348/-1/SPORTS

Above is a link to Ed Hardin's very pessimistic view of Duke football in the Greensboro paper. Perhaps there is a locker-room wall somewhere that could use it for motivation.

[mapei]

When the team was losing last year, a lot of people did say what achievements and measures of progress this year would be satisfactory to them. It would be interesting to dig them out so we could have them before us for this debate.

I'm not saying that to be rhetorical, BTW. I'm just curious.

I have a recommendation for getting another win against a D1 school: schedule Georgetown, currently oh and six against weaker competition than Duke plays.

[JasonEvans]

I have a recommendation for getting another win against a D1 school: schedule Georgetown, currently oh and six against weaker competition than Duke plays.

They are not Div1 (or whatever D1 is called these days), they are D1-AA (or whatever that division is called now). But you are right, they are one of the worst teams in 1-AA. Duke would likely stomp them.

--Jason "by the way, Sagarin says Duke has played the 8th toughest schedule in the nation so far... and played it VERY competitively!!" Evans

[Patrick Yates]

TRADITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stanford has more TRADITION!!!!!!!!!!!

This is about as intelligent as that retard singing during the opening of the (way overregarded) play.

Duke has tons of tradition. From way, way back in the day. How much has that been worth lately?

I will grant that Stanford has more tradition than Duke, at least recently.

How many points was that worth against USC? I am serious. For the tradition argument to hold water, that tradition must equate into points. Did USC agree not to try as hard, or to coach conservatively, or to spot Stanford some points?

Hey, Duke basketball has a better tradition since 2000 than UNC. Maryland should spot us a few baskets this year.

See how dumb that sounds? Harbaugh went in to Stanford this year, and turned those kids (none of whom were at Stanford for the Rose Bowl runs, so someone please explain to me how that is relevant) into world beaters, at least for a night. Were it not for the App St game, the Stanford USC game would've gone down as one of the biggest upsets in years. 21 point underdogs, to a NC favorite, at USC's house, and Stanford wins.

That is coaching my friends (and I point that out, because many here may be unfamiliar with it even when it is obvious). Cause you know, you have to know, that Stanfords recruiting was a wash last year. Harbaugh came in too late to do anything given Stanfords rigorous admissions (which ARE tougher than Duke's, which everyone is stepping arround). Of course, that has not stopped Stanford from stealing a top QB from this year's HS class, who by himself virtually assures that Stanford's class will surpass Duke's.

And another thing, about this alleged tradition. How is that helping the Golden Dome this year?

Rember B.C.? That is to say, Before Carroll, at USC? They were a mediocre team. Carson Palmer was regarded as El Busto, a HS QB who was much ballyhooed, and much maligned. PC came in, made a great call for an OC, and built a nasty D. Even though USC was a middling Pac 10 team prior to PC (unless you want to harken back to USC's "tradition" by naming Orenthal, and some other RBs, an era that happened prior to my parents meeting), Petey boy got them on an uptick. He did it a heck of a lot faster than Roof.

And no one here, me included, expects Duke to be even half that good. I mean, 4-7 wins is not much to ask. At USC, a 3 LOSS season is now a sign of Armageddon.

What will it take for the Duke fans to give up on Roof? Seriously. Every one says not to give up yet. Fine, have it your (delusional) way. For those of us who passed "yet" 20 odd losses ago, we would like some parameters. What will it take to end the support for Roof?

Suppose that Roof doesn't win another game this year (those ND and UNC games aren't quite so attractive now, eh?). Many here seem to indicate that Roof is close to turning a corner (Doctor, we are experiencing the same events, over and over. Is it a time Loop? Has the Master turned the Tardis into a paradox machine again? Cybermen? Daleks? Torchwood?), a song we have heard before.

OK. Give him another season. Next year, I want a Stanford-USC level win. If Harbaugh can do it, with tougher admission standards, after a 1 win season (that he was not responsible for), surely Roof can do it with Redshirt Seniors, all of whom he recruited. Given what we have endured under Roof, a USC level win is not too much to ask for. After all, we know it can be done (and against a team much better than any in the ACC, no less).

Patrick "I am not kidding. What will constitute the Roof finally completing the noose at the end of his rope?" Yates

[Kewlswim]

TRADITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stanford has more TRADITION!!!!!!!!!!!

This is about as intelligent as that retard singing during the opening of the (way overregarded) play.

Duke has tons of tradition. From way, way back in the day. How much has that been worth lately?

I will grant that Stanford has more tradition than Duke, at least recently.

How many points was that worth against USC? I am serious. For the tradition argument to hold water, that tradition must equate into points. Did USC agree not to try as hard, or to coach conservatively, or to spot Stanford some points?

Hey, Duke basketball has a better tradition since 2000 than UNC. Maryland should spot us a few baskets this year.

See how dumb that sounds? Harbaugh went in to Stanford this year, and turned those kids (none of whom were at Stanford for the Rose Bowl runs, so someone please explain to me how that is relevant) into world beaters, at least for a night. Were it not for the App St game, the Stanford USC game would've gone down as one of the biggest upsets in years. 21 point underdogs, to a NC favorite, at USC's house, and Stanford wins.

That is coaching my friends (and I point that out, because many here may be unfamiliar with it even when it is obvious). Cause you know, you have to know, that Stanfords recruiting was a wash last year. Harbaugh came in too late to do anything given Stanfords rigorous admissions (which ARE tougher than Duke's, which everyone is stepping arround). Of course, that has not stopped Stanford from stealing a top QB from this year's HS class, who by himself virtually assures that Stanford's class will surpass Duke's.

And another thing, about this alleged tradition. How is that helping the Golden Dome this year?

Rember B.C.? That is to say, Before Carroll, at USC? They were a mediocre team. Carson Palmer was regarded as El Busto, a HS QB who was much ballyhooed, and much maligned. PC came in, made a great call for an OC, and built a nasty D. Even though USC was a middling Pac 10 team prior to PC (unless you want to harken back to USC's "tradition" by naming Orenthal, and some other RBs, an era that happened prior to my parents meeting), Petey boy got them on an uptick. He did it a heck of a lot faster than Roof.

And no one here, me included, expects Duke to be even half that good. I mean, 4-7 wins is not much to ask. At USC, a 3 LOSS season is now a sign of Armageddon.

What will it take for the Duke fans to give up on Roof? Seriously. Every one says not to give up yet. Fine, have it your (delusional) way. For those of us who passed "yet" 20 odd losses ago, we would like some parameters. What will it take to end the support for Roof?

Suppose that Roof doesn't win another game this year (those ND and UNC games aren't quite so attractive now, eh?). Many here seem to indicate that Roof is close to turning a corner (Doctor, we are experiencing the same events, over and over. Is it a time Loop? Has the Master turned the Tardis into a paradox machine again? Cybermen? Daleks? Torchwood?), a song we have heard before.

OK. Give him another season. Next year, I want a Stanford-USC level win. If Harbaugh can do it, with tougher admission standards, after a 1 win season (that he was not responsible for), surely Roof can do it with Redshirt Seniors, all of whom he recruited. Given what we have endured under Roof, a USC level win is not too much to ask for. After all, we know it can be done (and against a team much better than any in the ACC, no less).

Patrick "I am not kidding. What will constitute the Roof finally completing the noose at the end of his rope?" Yates

Hi Patrick,

I don't understand why anyone still thinks Roof is the answer. Alas, I've written extensively about it. You've written extensively. There seem to be hardened camps now. At least we all love Duke football! I don't think it has to be a named coach to help us reach great heights. I joke about Charlie Weis being fired and Duke picking him up (I think that my humor wasn't caught by everyone on that post). I wrote that maybe he is an African-American who hasn't had his shot and maybe Duke will provide it. Any Polish African-American football head coaches out there with lots of experience (for the record, that was a joke--at least the Polish part)?

GO DUKE!

[hughgs]

Agreed, but do any of us here really know? Unless someone is on a search committee it is all speculation unless they come out and say they want the job...

True, but is there any reason for thinking that any coach wants the Duke job?

And isn't that the point of this exercise, to make people realize wanting a person to take the coaching job isn't the same thing as the person wanting the coaching job?

[hughgs]

Hi Patrick,

I don't understand why anyone still thinks Roof is the answer. Alas, I've written extensively about it. You've written extensively. There seem to be hardened camps now. At least we all love Duke football! I don't think it has to be a named coach to help us reach great heights. I joke about Charlie Weis being fired and Duke picking him up (I think that my humor wasn't caught by everyone on that post). I wrote that maybe he is an African-American who hasn't had his shot and maybe Duke will provide it. Any Polish African-American football head coaches out there with lots of experience (for the record, that was a joke--at least the Polish part)?

GO DUKE!

Since you've posted under this sub-section of the thread then you should enlighten us with a list of viable candidates who meet the four qualifications for the Duke coaching job.

[JasonEvans]

PY-- did you really just call Fiddler on the Roof overrated?!?! Dude, them's fighting words!!!

You ask what it would take for those of us who support him to give up on Roof. Hey, the answer (at least for me) is simple-- when we start clearly regressing again -- when there are no signs of progress and improvement -- then I would agree it will be time to get rid of him and look for a new coach.

Do you think Duke is just as bad this year as they were last year? Do you think there are no signs of progress and improvement on the team? I think you are a pretty smart observer of Duke athletics so I am betting you would agree there are signs of improvement. I bet you are not satisfied with it thought and think there should be far more improvement for coach to retain his job. I think that is largely the difference between us on this issue-- I think any improvement is worth giving him a little more time. You think we just not have improved enough for him to get another year.

Then again, you may think we have not improved at all. I'd find that more than a little stunning given the results of our recent games and the performance of some of our improving players, but it is possible.

--Jason "I want to see the progress continue-- the next few games had better not all be blowouts" Evans

[JasonEvans]

Since you've posted under this sub-section of the thread then you should enlighten us with a list of viable candidates who meet the four qualifications for the Duke coaching job.

I think it is a little disingenuous to ask folks to name someone who is interested in the job and the such when there is really almost no way for any of us to have access to that kind of information.

That said, I do wish the NVM (negative vocal minority) would awknowledge that finding a replacement for Roof will not be at all easy. Our program is just not very attractive right now. And it is quite improtant to add that any potential replacement coach would probably look skeptically at our history of firing one coach after another after just a few years. It would certainly help a potential search for a new coach for us to have the appearance of being a school that sticks with a coach and really gives him a chance to succeed.

--Jason "trivia time-- how long has it been since Duke had a football coach on the job for more than 5 years?" Evans

[YmoBeThere]

Agreed with you Jason that finding a good replacement will be tough, but you don't hold on to something that isn't working because of that.

I am still wavering back in forth in my opinion, I get encouraged while listening to a game(such as Saturday's where we make significant progress in the second half) but a day or two later wonder why the heck we didn't really seem to play well in the first half/second half, etc.

How long was Franks there? 1998, but before or after the season? He left midway through 2003, so consider that he had 1999,2000,2001, 2002, and parts of 2003 before he was let go. Pretty close to 5. If the program were performing, more than 5 years would make sense.

My opinion, but I don't think a coach wanting 5 years to turn around the program is an obstacle. Particularly if there was any faith that what was being done before they got there was on the right path. And again, what is our measure of success at year 4, year 5, etc.?

[metalasian]

Hey first post here, being a Duke student, fan of all Duke sports, and a casual member of the rivals and scout boards, just wanted to add my two cents.

First off, I cannot believe that people are still asking for another season under Roof. If you look at our schedule, we are 1-5. With better coaching, playcalling and execution, we could easily be 5-1. We have the talent. Roof is 6-39. SIX of THIRTY NINE. I heard someone at the game say it best; when a coach who would’ve been fired after one or two seasons at his alma mater, is coaching his fifth season here, there’s going to be problems. In a year when Kentucky, Illinois, and Kansas are ranked and Uconn remains unbeaten, Duke remains a basketball school who doesn’t quite get it yet.

Many argue that we are about to turn the corner; while it’s certainly possible, when a team has taken this long to do improve at all, there’s reason to believe that the coaching staff, or at least Roof, is simply not capable of turning a program around. People say Roof inherited a ‘mess.’ Ok, so that’s true. Jeff Tedford transformed 1-11 record into a 7-5 record within a year. Jim Harbaugh at Stanford already has more wins than last year, including one over #2 USC at home. Even when Grobe was building the Wake Forest program, they were winning games, although not necessarily having winning seasons. It’ll be a shame to watch us not perform to our potential next year with the most talent and experience we’ve had in awhile.

Although we’ve all seen remarkable improvement, particularly on the offensive side, our team still finds ways to lose. What the team lacks are fundamentals, the basics. One of our poorest characteristics of the past few games has been execution and discipline: trick plays are easily exposed or botched, our players, particularly Thad, not being able to hold onto the ball and making costly fumbles, converting or making stops on high pressured situations, defending the short pass, etc. These are not solely the responsibility of our players. Coaches are supposed to instill discipline; being a Duke student and having a friend walk on briefly to the football team, reports are that practice and training are not nearly as rigorous as one would expect or demand from a D-1 school from a BCS conference. This is furthermore evidenced by many of our players’ lack of conditioning (particularly VO). Does everyone still think VO will be a guaranteed draft pick? Granted, he’s got size but he certainly has not been performing to his standard, and we all can tell he’s clearly gassed by the end of each game. If we’re going to improve, we can’t solely do so on playcalling; we’ll need to condition our guy’s better, drill them better, and simply teach them the game better.

Admissions standards are not an issue. Seriously, don’t even make this an argument. Sure, we might pass on some recruits that Ohio State or any SEC school might accept, but the bottom line is we still go after many blue-chip recruits. Admissions doesn’t stop us from going after guys who commit to Oklahoma, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Tennessee, etc. Once in a while, we land one, like VO. Admissions should not be relevant to fielding a successful team. I have several football players in my classes. Let me tell you, it does not take much brains to be a D-1 football athlete, even at Duke. Trust me.

And even in the end, why not hire a new coach? Some of us just want to see Roof succeed too much. Even if Roof is improving, there are plenty of prospective coaches who could do better with our talent. Even if we win another game, or even two this year, it’s easily possible that with another coach we could have 6 or 7 wins this year. Even if our program gets better, there’s no reason to believe another coach can't maximize our talent better than Roof.

So.. why haven't we hired Dick Biddle yet? haha

[unexpected]

I don't understand why everyone's making a big deal out of this Stanford beating USC thing. Yes, it was a key victory, and a huge upset, but it is in no way indicative of Stanford's performance this year.

Stanford's win over USC was a total fluke. USC was basically sleep-walking. I think if USC and Stanford played 99 more times, USC would win all 99.

The comparison to Tedford at Cal doesn't make sense either. Cal has a strong academic reputation, but it's still a state school with a built-in talent pipeline. They can draw from the entire NorCal region. Duke can't do that. We're a private school. The recruits in North Carolina aren't that good - just look at UNC and State's recent performance, and on top that kids that play there grow up loving that team.

Tedford also had the reputation of being a QB guru. His QBs are awesome and are usually drafted really high. This helps him get good recruits at the most valuable position.

People keep saying why we don't go after the 5-star recruits that are really smart - as if they had no other options. 1) Those recruits are hard to come by. They don't grow them on trees - they're at the end of the bell curve in two respects, and 2) they go to Notre Dame. Remember college is supposed to be the best 4 years of your life.

Everyone acts like academics are the be-all end-all. We all went to Duke, so we love saying that, but guys, look around. There are smart people from bad schools, dumb people from good schools. In the real world, character, integrity, interpersonal skills, and connections matter a lot too. There's very little a Notre Dame education would offer that Duke education wouldn't except 1) a marginally worse academic profile 2) a much, much, much better football tradition, 2) colder weather (which is not realy a problem for the 75% of people in that climate already), 3) hero status at their school.

For Duke to be successful, we have to have other draws besides (OMG, he would get the best education ever!) If he really wanted to do that, he would go to havard or princeton. This is what FDA gets at everytime, and even though some of his ideas are utterly ridiculous, the underlying message does have some merit.

I've been a huge Roof hater in the past, but I've been really encouraged by this season. We're playing with fire in every game. We haven't had a fluke victory yet, but that doesn't really mean much to me. We had that in Roof's first season when we beat Georgia Tech. Look at where that got us. I want constant, fundamental growth. I want a program that looks like it's being built out of granite and blocks, so it can be strong for the future. We might continued our plateau, but you just know by the games that things are...different.

We may be losing, but to me a fluke victory would be empty. We're competitive in all our games, and when we start winning, we'll know the victory came true.

The alternatives are much worse. No one wants to coach us. That was made apparent last coaching search. Frank Solich? are you serious? Solich is a great coach, but has no interest in coaching football. He has not surfaced in any coaching search in the years since he was fired, which indicates to me that he's done.

Additionally, Solich is an option coach. Have you seen our running backs? They're less than stellar. Hiring solich would require a long-term commitment (3-5) years to totally re-inventing our attack. If you want to do that, and Solich wants to coach, by all means fire him. This won't happen though, because we're not going to get instant results with him, either.

Can we just call Chris Douglas? Seriously, if we had him in the backfield this year, we could do some really damage. He was so talented (and almost made the giants before his hip injury), and it's a shame how much Franks underutilized him.

[hughgs]

I think it is a little disingenuous to ask folks to name someone who is interested in the job and the such when there is really almost no way for any of us to have access to that kind of information.

That said, I do wish the NVM (negative vocal minority) would awknowledge that finding a replacement for Roof will not be at all easy. Our program is just not very attractive right now. And it is quite improtant to add that any potential replacement coach would probably look skeptically at our history of firing one coach after another after just a few years. It would certainly help a potential search for a new coach for us to have the appearance of being a school that sticks with a coach and really gives him a chance to succeed.

--Jason "trivia time-- how long has it been since Duke had a football coach on the job for more than 5 years?" Evans

But, isn't finding someone interested in the job one of the keys to finding a good coach? I also find it disingenuous of folks to say that we need to replace Roof without any ideas of candidates that would be willing to come to Duke. And while we may not have the information, the fact there isn't even a debate on coaches who would be interested says something about the pool of candidates.

[YmoBeThere]

But, isn't finding someone interested in the job one of the keys to finding a good coach? I also find it disingenuous of folks to say that we need to replace Roof without any ideas of candidates that would be willing to come to Duke. And while we may not have the information, the fact there isn't even a debate on coaches who would be interested says something about the pool of candidates.

Debating somehting you can't know gets into pointless speculation(okay I do indulge in it, but in this case I took one stab at it...see Solich comments by another above). For example, is A-rod going to remain with the Yankess or not? Well, that depends...

I agree with you that unlike the UNC basketball job, there are not likely a large pool of well known candidates who will publicly lobby for the job. However, that does not mean that there isn't anyone that would be interested in the job. Just that we are not likely to know about it. Another point in your favor is was that we ended up going with one of our coordinators for our current coach . Again, the unknown is we have no idea how the search committee did its job.

[FewFAC]

But, isn't finding someone interested in the job one of the keys to finding a good coach? I also find it disingenuous of folks to say that we need to replace Roof without any ideas of candidates that would be willing to come to Duke. And while we may not have the information, the fact there isn't even a debate on coaches who would be interested says something about the pool of candidates.

I have to support this position. After 2 decades of this annual topic of conversation, I understand just how difficult it is for the "results right now" crowd to comprehend the lack of commitment that is Duke football. The best approach for football success at Duke is going to require the coaching staff understanding they have some measure of job security if they do things the right way, regardless of on-field results.

[YmoBeThere]

The best approach for football success at Duke is going to require the coaching staff understanding they have some measure of job security if they do things the right way, regardless of on-field results.


Doing things the right way? What exactly does that mean? No paying the players, no academic high jinks? Those items have never been negotiable. So, they should get a free pass for how long based on on-field results? As long as they are doing the above? If that is the case, we would still have Carl Franks as our coach. Again, those are non-negotiable. 5 years is enough to show some progress...I will say this again and again, what progress have we shown? Moral victories? Moral victories result from confirmation bias that your team can't win. So, you seek out some other way to make the result seem less bad. By the way, this is year 4 for Coach Roof.

Is there a consensus on what progress means? Crappy as an owner as he is, Steinbrenner was clear with Joe Torre this weekend even if he did deliver the message via the press. Win this series or you will be looking for another job. This after losing in the ALDS level for the last couple of years.

[Jumbo]

Is there a consensus on what progress means? Crappy as an owner as he is, Steinbrenner was clear with Joe Torre this weekend even if he did deliver the message via the press. Win this series or you will be looking for another job. This after losing in the ALDS level for the last couple of years.

If you're turning to George Steinbrenner as an example of a sane approach to this issue, well, you've already lost your argument.

[YmoBeThere]

Semi-sane, sort of like the broken clock being right two times a day. Next year will be pivotal in my own thought process on Roof. More winning this year would certainly make everyone more comfortable.

[throatybeard]

If you're turning to George Steinbrenner as an example of a sane approach to this issue, well, you've already lost your argument.

Let's call it "Steinbrenner's Law"

[Jumbo]

Semi-sane, sort of like the broken clock being right two times a day. Next year will be pivotal in my own thought process on Roof. More winning this year would certainly make everyone more comfortable.

Not to drag this too far off-topic, but do you think Steinbrenner is actually correct in wanting to fire Torre?

[FewFAC]

Doing things the right way? What exactly does that mean? No paying the players, no academic high jinks? Those items have never been negotiable. So, they should get a free pass for how long based on on-field results? As long as they are doing the above? If that is the case, we would still have Carl Franks as our coach. Again, those are non-negotiable. 5 years is enough to show some progress...I will say this again and again, what progress have we shown? Moral victories? Moral victories result from confirmation bias that your team can't win. So, you seek out some other way to make the result seem less bad. By the way, this is year 4 for Coach Roof.

And I meant they never should be negotiable. I just think the administration should approach the teaching of sports in the same manner as the approach the teaching of any other subject matter at the University. I would much rather have a program beyond reproach in terms of its admissions, academic success and personal responsibility than to sacrifice any of those things for gridiron wins.

The University sacrificed a lot of other support necessary for on-field success a long time ago, and those are not things from which a FBS team recovers quickly.

[YmoBeThere]

Not to drag this too far off-topic, but do you think Steinbrenner is actually correct in wanting to fire Torre?

If it were my decision, no I would not be firing Torre at this time. But this goes a lot on my assumptions of what may or may not have happened behind the scenes. The Yankess pitching is inadequate particularly in a short series. In a game with huge variability, I would suggest that pitching is less variable than hitting and should thus be the focus. The Yankees have been tied up in too many contracts with aging pitchers, this I would put at the feet of Brian Cashman.

I work in the corporate world, those in charge make changes in leadership when results are not achieved. I have seen cases where I thought changes were made too quickly and cases where people should have been changed long before they were. I do believe it is detrimental to an organization to let it perform less than its capabilities or expectations for too long. That is why I have noted in a post or two what the clear expectations are for determining progress. Ultimately, for me that means wins on the field. Not 9-10, but 3-4. I was expecting 3-4 before this year started. We still have an outside chance at getting there, my expectations are falling given the remaining schedule. The pivotal game for me was the loss to Navy.

Let us not forget that Coach Franks was let go mid season after a loss to Wake Forest. So, some standard was being applied. I think the same standard(whatever it is) should be applied to Coach Roof.

[jlear]

I do wish the NVM (negative vocal minority) would awknowledge that finding a replacement for Roof will not be at all easy.

Jason, do you mean that those who are negative on Roof on DBR are a minority or you think that in general Duke fans want Roof to be given more time?

[Patrick Yates]

PY-- did you really just call Fiddler on the Roof overrated?!?! Dude, them's fighting words!!!

You ask what it would take for those of us who support him to give up on Roof. Hey, the answer (at least for me) is simple-- when we start clearly regressing again -- when there are no signs of progress and improvement -- then I would agree it will be time to get rid of him and look for a new coach.

Do you think Duke is just as bad this year as they were last year? Do you think there are no signs of progress and improvement on the team? I think you are a pretty smart observer of Duke athletics so I am betting you would agree there are signs of improvement. I bet you are not satisfied with it thought and think there should be far more improvement for coach to retain his job. I think that is largely the difference between us on this issue-- I think any improvement is worth giving him a little more time. You think we just not have improved enough for him to get another year.

Then again, you may think we have not improved at all. I'd find that more than a little stunning given the results of our recent games and the performance of some of our improving players, but it is possible.

--Jason "I want to see the progress continue-- the next few games had better not all be blowouts" Evans


Jason, I will grant that Duke, is PROBABLY better than last year. However, any improvement is, at the absolute best, incremental. Would you argue that Duke is DEFINITELY and NOTICABLY better this year?

On Offense, the passing game is definitely better this year as opposed to last year. Conversely, the rushing attack is definitely weaker this year. Does this year's passing game improvements offset the rushing game's devolution? An argument in the positive would have merit, but it would not be a slam dunk that the O has definitely improved to a significant level. (and some of those RBs are out the door this year).

As for Defense, I think the argument would be that they have taken a tiny step backwards. At best, they are approximately as good as last year. But it cannot be argued that they are better. We lost a great CB last year, and it is obvious that the entire D, which many here argued in the preseason would be Duke's strength (would anyone like a mulligan on that one?) has suffered.

We all point to VO being a 5 star recruit and proof that Duke can recruit 5 star talents, but it is obvious by now that VO has not lived up to that billing. He is far, far from a Bust, but he has not been the game changer that many of us predicted/hoped. Part of that may be the talent around him, but that too is an indictment of the Roof era.

So, in the interest of making my following argument, I will assume (even if I personally do not agree) for the sake of argument that Duke has improved. But, again, I stress that any improvement is marginal, at best.

Look at the context of said "improvement." Including this year, and last, have you ever seen the ACC weaker from top to bottom? Not since FSU joined the league. For the last two years, the ACC has been without a relevant team on the national stage. And you can forget a good-but-not-great BC team this year. LSU could finish with 1 tight loss, and still the BCS computer might rank LSU ahead of the undefeated (never gonna happen) Eagles. The ACC is so laughably bad that an undefeated team might not able to leapfrog an SEC squad with a loss.

Does anyone think WFU last year was an elite squad? If so, please revisit the sexual assault that masqueraded as their bowl game last year. In fact, this year the ACC might only have 1-3 teams that would have winning records (and those barely) in any other BCS conference. So, while Duke may be "improved" over last year, the reality is that the rest of the league came back to us, we did not get up to them.

As for the future, well, I do not like Duke's chances. Wake is evolving into a competitive team. They are starting to bring in recruits that are not even considering Duke. NCSU's coach recruited and trained every single impact player on this year's BC team, and early recruiting returns are solid. Davis at UNC will be competing for the ACC title as early as next year. FSU has a O-Coordinator, and now a QB (and a recruit that will redshirt next year and be the future of the program) who can do the job (and a D that won't quit). Miami has a great recruiting class incoming. VTech has a great young O, and a tradition for nasty D. The BC guy may be doing it with the previous regime's players, but it bodes well for the future. UMD, UVA, GT, and Clemson are at least holding steady, noticably ahead of Duke

The ACC is historically weak right now. This is an era when schools like Duke can succeed (see WFU). Still, even when the ACC is awful, Duke is the league whipping boy. Sure we are comming close right now, but I think next year the league begins to pull away again. After that, the D will begin to lose its best players. In 2 years Duke could be the true whipping boy again, in that Duke is not only losing every game, but getting whipped in the process.

(as a caveat, I will grant that this post season could see some changes. Clemson may make a coaching change, and Carroll at USC could move to the pros. We all know that Michigan's slot is available, and Butch Davis will be a candidate for either. Indeed, a domino effect could sweep the nation as a result of these, and possibly Cal's, job openings. This could effect my above predictions).

So, I am sorry, but I do not see Duke's improvents (all of which are technically losses) in the same light as you, the DVM (delusional vociferous majority [George Bush won reelection, so go MAJORITY, they are never wrong]). The league got worse, we didn't get better. The league is taking steps to improve drastically, Duke is not.

Patrick Yates

No, I do not know of any head coaches that would look at Duke. But that is the AD's job (god help us). But sticking with the ugliest girl at the dance simply because you do not know for certain that a prettier girl might be interested in the height of mental defficiency.

[JasonEvans]

Jason, do you mean that those who are negative on Roof on DBR are a minority or you think that in general Duke fans want Roof to be given more time?

I have no way of polling Duke fans in general to know what they think of Roof. I do have a way of polling folks who frequent the DBR and I think it is not entirely unreasonable to think that if DBR readers overwhelmingly feel a certain way about something related to Duke that the entire Duke fanbase probably feels somewhat similar. Does that make sense.

Therefore, armed with the poll still in effect on this board which shows 3 out of every 4 Duke fans support Roof and think the team is improving, I feel fairly confident about saying that Duke fans support Roof and want him to be given more time.

I may be wrong, but I only have one data point (the poll) and it shows such a lopsided view that I feel comfortable describing the "Roof must go!" crowd as a vocal minority.

--Jason "to be clear about something, I am not saying Roof is awesome or that he will certainly make Duke competitive in the ACC again-- but I think he deserves at least 1 or 2 more seasons to give it a shot" Evans

[Mabdul Doobakus]

--Jason "to be clear about something, I am not saying Roof is awesome or that he will certainly make Duke competitive in the ACC again-- but I think he deserves at least 1 or 2 more seasons to give it a shot" Evans

Yeah, I think this a point that deserves emphasis. It's not like the people supporting Roof are saying he WILL turn the program around. It's simply that he could, and that we think there are objective signs that he is heading in the right direction, FINALLY, so why now, of all times, would we pull the rug out from under him? In the grand scheme, what do we really have to lose by giving him to the end of next year to see if he can sustain this momentum? Worst case scenario, we go winless, he gets fired, and, yes, we start all over again with a new coach. Best case? He turns out to be the right guy, and, thank the Lord, the last 4 years haven't been a complete waste.

What's the best case scenario of firing him? He IS the wrong guy. We bring in the RIGHT GUY, one year earlier than if we had kept Roof on. What's the worse case scenario? We fire the RIGHT GUY. The last 4 years are a waste. Some new guy comes in and does no better, and then, maybe 4 years from now, when there's a hint of momentum on our side, he gets canned and we start over again with a new guy.

Sometimes patience pays off. I don't think another year is unreasonable. And sometimes you can stick with a guy too long, but what do we really have to lose by finding out if Roof is the guy after all? One year.

And, no, we won't play this game again next year. If Roof does not win 3+ games next year, then he has failed.

[YmoBeThere]

we think there are objective signs that he is heading in the right direction

"The last 4 years are a waste."

And, no, we won't play this game again next year. If Roof does not win 3+ games next year, then he has failed.

Generally, I am in the camp of the litmus test will be next year and beyond, however:

1)Other than the 1 win, I am uncertain what the "objective" signs are. Moral victories, are again an issue of confirmation bias and you can find them in any year.
2) The last 4 years are not a waste if what was done to "build" the program was really building the program. I understand that in one case I am applying a binary measurement(win-loss above) and another here in saying that it is not all good or bad.
3) I was expecting 3+ wins this year, the optimists more. As PatrickYates notes, this isn't a great year for the ACC. My thoughts, though unfortunately not documented anywhere, were Northwestern, Navy and a "shocker" in the ACC. So, now I find myself starting to move my expectation for this season into next season. I was panned for quoting Dr. King, but this is the slow sort of gradualism that he warned against.

[Bluedawg]

Hi Patrick,

I don't understand why anyone still thinks Roof is the answer. Alas, I've written extensively about it. You've written extensively. There seem to be hardened camps now. At least we all love Duke football! I don't think it has to be a named coach to help us reach great heights. I joke about Charlie Weis being fired and Duke picking him up (I think that my humor wasn't caught by everyone on that post). I wrote that maybe he is an African-American who hasn't had his shot and maybe Duke will provide it. Any Polish African-American football head coaches out there with lots of experience (for the record, that was a joke--at least the Polish part)?

GO DUKE!



Duke fought mightily but might have lost the last game it can win this year, assuming it doesn't go up and beat equally hapless Notre Dame next month. Even so, it appears the Devils are headed for another disastrous autumn and maybe even another coaching change. That has been Duke's history in dealing with autumns such as this. [source (http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071007/NRSTAFF/710070348/-1/SPORTS)]

Ed Hardin is correct. unless Football equals the success basketball has NOW we must fire the coach. please explain that to me.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

Generally, I am in the camp of the litmus test will be next year and beyond, however:

1)Other than the 1 win, I am uncertain what the "objective" signs are. Moral victories, are again an issue of confirmation bias and you can find them in any year.
2) The last 4 years are not a waste if what was done to "build" the program was really building the program. I understand that in one case I am applying a binary measurement(win-loss above) and another here in saying that it is not all good or bad.
3) I was expecting 3+ wins this year, the optimists more. As PatrickYates notes, this isn't a great year for the ACC. My thoughts, though unfortunately not documented anywhere, were Northwestern, Navy and a "shocker" in the ACC. So, now I find myself starting to move my expectation for this season into next season. I was panned for quoting Dr. King, but this is the slow sort of gradualism that he warned against.


1. So, just stick with the one win. You don't have to look any further if you don't want. Year ain't over yet anyway.
2. Well, they are kind of a waste if you fire the coach, aren't they? You're saying what was done was essentially meaningless, and certainly not commendable. I mean, that's what you're saying when you fire the guy, right? That he's taken this program nowhere.
3. I would say that's just you being optimistic, though. I don't think outsiders saw us winning 3+ games. I think most would've figured us for one win. Have we even been favored in a game thus far? Roof shouldn't be held hostage to the bright-eyed expectations of the more optimistic among us. And I can't yet blame him for the low expectations of outside experts. Those expectations were in place long before he got here, and I don't feel he's been given enough time to reverse them.

[YmoBeThere]

2. Well, they are kind of a waste if you fire the coach, aren't they? You're saying what was done was essentially meaningless, and certainly not commendable. I mean, that's what you're saying when you fire the guy, right? That he's taken this program nowhere.


No, you can say he didn't get you where he needed to get you in the time he was given. Entirely different message from the program has gone nowhere, so lets start all over again. The people are there, the buildings are there(yes, they could use some improvement), the uniforms are still there. The expectation that you must graduate players is still there. You present this as a binary function, 1 or 0, on or off. I don't agree that this is true.

To say he went nowhere says to me that institutionally there was no clue where we needed to go and there was no direction institutionally That is why the 0-fer last year was a huge disappointment. It was a move backwards...and I factor it into my thoughts.

[JasonEvans]

source (http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071007/NRSTAFF/710070348/-1/SPORTS)

Wow, that column is just terrifying. For those of you who have not read it, here is the main point:


Duke is convinced hard work eventually will win these games, that perseverance will eventually turn Duke into a winner. But it won't.

Tommy Bowden, the coach at Clemson, joked a few years back that the secret to Division I success rested on three things: a commitment from the university, a strong athletics director and a willingness to commit secondary violations.

Ed Hardin believes that the only way to succeed is to compromise your standards-- to take kids who are not academically prepared for your school and even commit some small-scale violations that give you that extra added push to bring top players in to your program.

That is just terrifying. Luckily, I am confident it is not true.

--Jason "if that was the only way to win, I'd be quite happy if we just kept on losing" Evans

[Bluedawg]

Yeah, I think this a point that deserves emphasis. It's not like the people supporting Roof are saying he WILL turn the program around.

i'll say it...and i've said it before. IF Duke hangs with him TR WILL turn this program around.

[Bluedawg]

Wow, that column is just terrifying. For those of you who have not read it, here is the main point:



Ed Hardin believes that the only way to succeed is to compromise your standards-- to take kids who are not academically prepared for your school and even commit some small-scale violations that give you that extra added push to bring top players in to your program.

That is just terrifying. Luckily, I am confident it is not true.

--Jason "if that was the only way to win, I'd be quite happy if we just kept on losing" Evans

it is terrifying, but it has bright moments...the best line in the article is

-They didn't win, but they didn't quit. They never quit.

"And we're never going to," safety Chris Davis said.


Pre-Roof i don't think anyone would have said that.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

No, you can say he didn't get you where he needed to get you in the time he was given. Entirely different message from the program has gone nowhere, so lets start all over again. The people are there, the buildings are there(yes, they could use some improvement), the uniforms are still there. The expectation that you must graduate players is still there. You present this as a binary function, 1 or 0, on or off. I don't agree that this is true.

To say he went nowhere says to me that institutionally there was no clue where we needed to go and there was no direction institutionally That is why the 0-fer last year was a huge disappointment. It was a move backwards...and I factor it into my thoughts.

Well, we're either going backwards or forwards. So, in that sense, it is binary. I agree that last year was a disappointment, and if you wanted to fire Roof at the end of last, I would've said fine. Honestly. I actually called for his head after the UCONN game. But everything that has happened after that has been one forward step after another. For a program that has been backsliding consistently for 15 years, I don't see why any sign of forward movement isn't enough at this point for most people. Well, actually, on this board it's enough for 80% of the people, so nevermind that.

Anyway, we're both running the risk of repeating ourselves, so I'll just close by saying I understand your viewpoint, it makes a lot of sense. I just happen to disagree with it, and as long as these next 6 weeks don't mark a return to the form of last year, I'm probably going to continue to disagree.

[YmoBeThere]

Anyway, we're both running the risk of repeating ourselves, so I'll just close by saying I understand your viewpoint, it makes a lot of sense. I just happen to disagree with it, and as long as these next 6 weeks don't mark a return to the form of last year, I'm probably going to continue to disagree.

Agreed:)

[bill brill]

for those of you who get blue devil weekly, my latest column deals with what will be a true commitment from the administration for football in particular and athletics in general, and, my view, faculty critics be damned. the decision to get data from 22 schools this summer (basketball-centric schools, academic peers, schools that turned it around in football, excellent schools) was needed. for the first time, the administration and trustees will have data to absorb, not just requests from the athletic department. wallace wade will be renovated. I suspect academic changes will be made (lot lowering standards; graduation will still be a must, but additional support). there's a whole lot more. they call it a five-year plan but nobody wants to wait that long. the key I believe is what the decision is with the coach, especially if he finishes 1-11 or 2-10? there will be money to hire a bigtime coach (as much as $2M per), but again, who would take it if it was open? I am convinced the one thing that is absolutely needed is some excitement for football. can roof supply that? to date, we have no idea. the young and enthusiastic fuqua grad who is compiling the data says duke gets an "A" in everything but football. unhappily, that grade is "F" since 1966, a situation precipitated by president knight. if this plan goes through, and I believe it will be supported by the trustees in february, it will be the first administrative emphasis in 42 years. I think that's long enough.

[Johnboy]

No, I do not know of any head coaches that would look at Duke. But that is the AD's job (god help us). But sticking with the ugliest girl at the dance simply because you do not know for certain that a prettier girl might be interested in the height of mental defficiency.

I thought it was poor spelling despite a built-in spell checker.:)

OR

Some folks might say a bird in the hand.

OR

I've heard it said that the definition of insanity (mental deficiency, if you like) is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Like, say, firing the football coach every four years or so and expecting the new one to produce with the other guys' players.

I see arguments on this board that we now have better talent, so we should be winning more games - and that's the coach's fault. Well, it's to the coach's credit that we have better talent.

I'm sorry to bring such a dumb thread back to the top. It seems obvious to me that we need to stick with Coach Roof.

Can anyone name pro football Coach X?


In his first season as head coach, X failed to win a single game. The team posted a 0-11-1 record.
. . .[years pass]
Despite a sub-par record, X had won the confidence of owner Z. In year 4, Owner Z signed Coach X for an additional 10 years as head coach. This marked an unprecedented show of support for a coach with only a 13-38-3 record. But the gamble paid off. By year 5, the team won as many games as they lost. And in year 6, the team made the playoffs for the first time after posting a 10-3-1 season.

[Here's a hint:] Over 29 seasons, Coach X guided his team to 20 consecutive winning seasons, 19 NFL playoff appearances, 13 division titles, five Super Bowl appearances, and two Super Bowl victories. His overall record was 271-180-6.

Here's a bigger hint: as a Redskins fan, I hated Coach X's team, but certainly respected Coach X.

I'm not saying Coach Roof is the next Coach X, but if we want results, it would help to show some loyalty and patience to anyone who shows continued improvement. Coach Roof has shown that, IMO, and we need to be patient and support the program.

[killerleft]

Amen. Long enough, indeed!

[throatybeard]

I don't think outsiders saw us winning 3+ games. I think most would've figured us for one win.

I saw 0-12 and 1-11 in prognostications.

w/r/t Jason's amazement that the poll is 3-1 for Roof, this is just human nature. The people who are angry screech the loudest. The wait-n-see folks don't make as much noise.

[Patrick Yates]

I saw 0-12 and 1-11 in prognostications.

w/r/t Jason's amazement that the poll is 3-1 for Roof, this is just human nature. The people who are angry screech the loudest. The wait-n-see folks don't make as much noise.

Maybe the Naysayers are so loud, and the supporters so quiet because the supporters are begining to feel a little doubt creeping in, while the rest of us get more evidence (the only way to take a loss) each week.

Patrick Yates

[mapei]

Landry.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Maybe the Naysayers are so loud, and the supporters so quiet because the supporters are beginning to feel a little doubt creeping in, while the rest of us get more evidence (the only way to take a loss) each week.

Patrick Yates

No, I'm being quiet because I've said my piece and don't see the need to reiterate it over and over again. Supporting Roof ain't like saying Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!

But I will say it one more time -- let's see what the rest of the season brings.

[YmoBeThere]

But I will say it one more time -- let's see what the rest of the season brings.

Agreed, and what next season brings also. But the hard choices, if they are necessary, must be made.

[Lavabe]

Landry.

Wrong coach, my friend. If you're going for impossibilities, why not go with the one coach who could turn around any team. A man, better known in Chicago as:

DITKA!

Ditka vs. a hurricane? DITKA.
Ditka vs. Brodhead? DITKA.
Ditka vs. UNC? DITKA.

Cheers,
Lavabe

[YmoBeThere]

Wrong coach, my friend. If you're going for impossibilities, why not go with the one coach who could turn around any team. A man, better known in Chicago as:

DITKA!

Ditka vs. a hurricane? DITKA.
Ditka vs. Brodhead? DITKA.
Ditka vs. UNC? DITKA.

Cheers,
Lavabe

Huh, which two Super Bowls did he win as a coach?

[Johnboy]

Landry.


Tom Landry it is.

[RelativeWays]

Take it from someone who has read the news and record for years (I'm from Greensboro) Ed Hardin HATES Duke. Notice how UNC isn't included in the list of Dukes winnable games. Somehow 3-2 Wake Forest is beatable (and they were) but 2-4 UNC is not (and they are).

Look, the point is we're going to have to slog it through with someone. Nobody is going to fix the Duke Football program in 4 years, it will take longer. Citing Harbaugh's success against USC is suspect seeing as how Stanford has been soundly drubbed by every other PAC-10 opponent they've played. Would a suprise win over VT this weekend be that much of an improvement if every other team we've played thoroughly pounded us? I don't see any other solutions outside of telling the ACC to feck off and join the Big East, where Duke can have a Div 1-AA football team and still be in a major basketball conference. And who wants that?....aside from Feinstein.

[-jk]

Enough Roof bashing for this week. It's getting too repetitive. This thread is closed.

-jk