Draft and stash

[Reddevil]

Since the DBR mock NBA draft and then the real NBA draft, the "draft and stash" strategy has gotten a lot of play. It usually means drafting a foreign player and having the rights to that player while he plays overseas. They can bring him into the league when he is ready or in reality, when the team is ready to put him on their roster.

Now maybe this has been discussed in different ways when discussing what to do about the college game and NBA eligibility, and I probably do not have all of the insight needed to consider all of the ramifications, but hey, it's the offseason and you guys (and gals) have interesting thoughts. None of us is as smart as all of us or something like that.:confused:

My thought is this - What if NBA teams can draft and stash American players whenever they want? (Meaning during the annual NBA draft - sign and stash at will would get crazy!) Let's say stashing them means paying their tuition as part of their future salary. I am not certain how it could work, and would cause a college roster of haves and have-nots maybe. I am not sure. I apologize if this is already a dead horse, but I have not seen this topic discussed quite this way yet. So lets say NBA teams can draft anyone that is 18 years old to simplify it a bit. That would mean high school players and college players are eligible to be drafted. As long as they are not called up, they get there tuition paid if they want to be in school. Some will not - I get that. I guess they can be D-Leagued with the NBA team still holding their rights.

Thoughts?

[SoCalDukeFan]

Could the pro team dictate to the college team things like what position the player must play?

Are the top Euros "stashed?" or do they come straight to the NBA?

SoCal

[elvis14]

Since the DBR mock NBA draft and then the real NBA draft, the "draft and stash" strategy has gotten a lot of play. It usually means drafting a foreign player and having the rights to that player while he plays overseas. They can bring him into the league when he is ready or in reality, when the team is ready to put him on their roster.

Now maybe this has been discussed in different ways when discussing what to do about the college game and NBA eligibility, and I probably do not have all of the insight needed to consider all of the ramifications, but hey, it's the offseason and you guys (and gals) have interesting thoughts. None of us is as smart as all of us or something like that.:confused:

My thought is this - What if NBA teams can draft and stash American players whenever they want? (Meaning during the annual NBA draft - sign and stash at will would get crazy!) Let's say stashing them means paying their tuition as part of their future salary. I am not certain how it could work, and would cause a college roster of haves and have-nots maybe. I am not sure. I apologize if this is already a dead horse, but I have not seen this topic discussed quite this way yet. So lets say NBA teams can draft anyone that is 18 years old to simplify it a bit. That would mean high school players and college players are eligible to be drafted. As long as they are not called up, they get there tuition paid if they want to be in school. Some will not - I get that. I guess they can be D-Leagued with the NBA team still holding their rights.

Thoughts?

Doesn't baseball have a system where a player can be drafted out of high school? I'm thinking that if they decide to go to college they have to stay 3 years but I can't remember if a team can draft them, watch them go to college and keep their rights.

[MartyClark]

Doesn't baseball have a system where a player can be drafted out of high school? I'm thinking that if they decide to go to college they have to stay 3 years but I can't remember if a team can draft them, watch them go to college and keep their rights.

I think the NHL can draft high school players and then stash them while they play college hockey.

[Kedsy]

Doesn't baseball have a system where a player can be drafted out of high school? I'm thinking that if they decide to go to college they have to stay 3 years but I can't remember if a team can draft them, watch them go to college and keep their rights.

I'm pretty sure if the kid goes to college, the team that drafted him out of high school loses their rights and he's eligible to be drafted again after his junior year.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I'm pretty sure if the kid goes to college, the team that drafted him out of high school loses their rights and he's eligible to be drafted again after his junior year.

Correct. I believe if a baseball player sets foot on campus, he is there for 3 years. Historically there has been some drama going down to the day that a school starts with negotiations with major league teams. As a result, drafting strategies in baseball depend a lot on "signability" and recruiting is also that much harder for college coaches as they never know who will actually show up on campus.

As noted above, the NHL draft system is closer to what was proposed, but I don't know exactly how it works.

[CDu]

The NBA used to have this system, actually. Voshon Lenard was one of the few (if any) who actually took advantage of it, returning to school for his senior year after being drafted by the Bucks. Not sure why they changed the rules subsequently, but I guess it has something to do with competing interests: either the NBA not wanting to expose their draft picks to risks at the college level or the colleges not wanting to feel pressure from NBA teams on how to handle their players.

[SCMatt33]

The NBA used to have this system, actually. Voshon Lenard was one of the few (if any) who actually took advantage of it, returning to school for his senior year after being drafted by the Bucks. Not sure why they changed the rules subsequently, but I guess it has something to do with competing interests: either the NBA not wanting to expose their draft picks to risks at the college level or the colleges not wanting to feel pressure from NBA teams on how to handle their players.

Don't forget the most famous example of this. Larry Bird was drafted by the Celtics in 78 before returning to school and leading Indiana State to the title game against Magic and Michigan State in 79.

[kmspeaks]

Correct. I believe if a baseball player sets foot on campus, he is there for 3 years. Historically there has been some drama going down to the day that a school starts with negotiations with major league teams. As a result, drafting strategies in baseball depend a lot on "signability" and recruiting is also that much harder for college coaches as they never know who will actually show up on campus.

As noted above, the NHL draft system is closer to what was proposed, but I don't know exactly how it works.

Unless he goes to a Junior College, then he is eligible to be drafted again the next year.

[Olympic Fan]

Don't forget the most famous example of this. Larry Bird was drafted by the Celtics in 78 before returning to school and leading Indiana State to the title game against Magic and Michigan State in 79.

This rule only applied to fifth-year college guys, A player who completed his fourth-year of college could be drafted, whether he had eligibility or not.

It worked for Bird, because he started at Indiana, sat out a year after transferring to Indiana State, then played three years there. Auerbach very wisely drafted him with the sixth pick in the 1978 draft, knowing that he wouldn't get the guy until after the 1979 season.

The rule was later repealed, but it would have limited utility today -- how many great players stick around college for five years?

Well, I guess it means that somebody could have drafted Amile last week -- not a bad second-round pick (or Marshall in the 2015 draft).

I do love the baseball rule -- it's fair to everybody, players, pro teams and college teams:

-- A player can sign straight out of high school if all he wants is a pro career

-- A player who goes to a four-year college has to wait three years or until he's 21 (some kids do turn 21 after their sophomore year) to re-enter the draft.

-- A player can sign with a junior college to give himself options -- he can be drafted again after one year, two years ... or he can go two years to juco, sign with a four-year school, play one year and enter the draft then.

The system allows a lot of flexibility -- the players can maximize their value (if they don't like where they are drafted, they can go to school and try to improve it); the pro teams can get their talent early or wait until they are matured (with the colleges acting as a free minor league for them) and the college get some stability with three-year guarantees.

It's a great system ... unfortunately, the NBA and the player's association has never considered it.

[elvis14]

This rule only applied to fifth-year college guys, A player who completed his fourth-year of college could be drafted, whether he had eligibility or not.

It worked for Bird, because he started at Indiana, sat out a year after transferring to Indiana State, then played three years there. Auerbach very wisely drafted him with the sixth pick in the 1978 draft, knowing that he wouldn't get the guy until after the 1979 season.

The rule was later repealed, but it would have limited utility today -- how many great players stick around college for five years?

Well, I guess it means that somebody could have drafted Amile last week -- not a bad second-round pick (or Marshall in the 2015 draft).

I do love the baseball rule -- it's fair to everybody, players, pro teams and college teams:

-- A player can sign straight out of high school if all he wants is a pro career

-- A player who goes to a four-year college has to wait three years or until he's 21 (some kids do turn 21 after their sophomore year) to re-enter the draft.

-- A player can sign with a junior college to give himself options -- he can be drafted again after one year, two years ... or he can go two years to juco, sign with a four-year school, play one year and enter the draft then.

The system allows a lot of flexibility -- the players can maximize their value (if they don't like where they are drafted, they can go to school and try to improve it); the pro teams can get their talent early or wait until they are matured (with the colleges acting as a free minor league for them) and the college get some stability with three-year guarantees.

It's a great system ... unfortunately, the NBA and the player's association has never considered it.

Thanks OF for posting a more complete picture of the college baseball drafting rules. I agree, it's a great system. How cool would it be to have that for basketball?

[CDu]

This rule only applied to fifth-year college guys, A player who completed his fourth-year of college could be drafted, whether he had eligibility or not.

It wasn't just for 5th-year guys, at least not always. That may have been the case in Bird's day (as the hardship rules were definitely different back in the 1970s), but Voshon Lenard was a true (third-year) junior when he entered the 1994 draft. He got drafted, returned and played his true senior season before going to the NBA.

As for the baseball rules, it would be interesting. But the NBA has really no interest in doing that. They benefit a lot from the rules as is, getting a free year of scouting and marketing from prospects playing in college.

[Olympic Fan]

It wasn't just for 5th-year guys, at least not always. That may have been the case in Bird's day (as the hardship rules were definitely different back in the 1970s), but Voshon Lenard was a true (third-year) junior when he entered the 1994 draft. He got drafted, returned and played his true senior season before going to the NBA.

As for the baseball rules, it would be interesting. But the NBA has really no interest in doing that. They benefit a lot from the rules as is, getting a free year of scouting and marketing from prospects playing in college.

You are confusing NCAA eligibility rules with NBA rules.

Lenard took advantage of a brief NCAA rule that allowed players who declared for the draft, but weren't drafted to return tool -- as long as they didn't hire an agent or accept money from NBA teams to attend tryouts.

That loophole was closed in January of 1995, when the NCAA adopted a new rule (proposed by Dean Smith) that said that players could test the waters, but had to withdraw up to 30 days before the draft in order to retain their collegiate eligibility.

The interesting thing about Voshon Lenard is that he was drafted in almost exactly the same place (early in the second round) in both 1994 and 1995.

[CDu]

You are confusing NCAA eligibility rules with NBA rules.

Lenard took advantage of a brief NCAA rule that allowed players who declared for the draft, but weren't drafted to return tool -- as long as they didn't hire an agent or accept money from NBA teams to attend tryouts.

That loophole was closed in January of 1995, when the NCAA adopted a new rule (proposed by Dean Smith) that said that players could test the waters, but had to withdraw up to 30 days before the draft in order to retain their collegiate eligibility.

The interesting thing about Voshon Lenard is that he was drafted in almost exactly the same place (early in the second round) in both 1994 and 1995.

No, I'm not confusing the rules. The NBA (and the NCAA) allowed Lenard to stay and play in college after he was drafted, but the Bucks maintained his rights. Lenard was drafted only once: the #46 pick in 1994 by the Bucks. He was not eligible for the draft in 1995 and was thus not drafted in 1995. He signed with the Bucks before the 1995 season.

You are correct that the NCAA has since changed the rules (numerous times actually) such that you can no longer stay in the draft.

[Olympic Fan]

No, I'm not confusing the rules. The NBA (and the NCAA) allowed Lenard to stay and play in college after he was drafted, but the Bucks maintained his rights. Lenard was drafted only once: the #46 pick in 1994 by the Bucks. He was not eligible for the draft in 1995 and was thus not drafted in 1995. He signed with the Bucks before the 1995 season.

You are correct that the NCAA has since changed the rules (numerous times actually) such that you can no longer stay in the draft.

The NBA has nothing to do with "allowing" Lenard to stay and play.

It was strictly up to the NCAA ... and, as you note, they promptly closed that loophole.

[JetpackJesus]

I think the NHL can draft high school players and then stash them while they play college hockey.

An NHL team can draft a college player (or high school player that will play in the NCAA) and retain his rights while he plays in college. The player retains his NCAA eligibility provided he does not play for a pro team or hire an agent at any point. The team owning the player's rights can sign the player after each college season ends. If the player isn't signed after a season, he can return to his NCAA team for another year. If the player completes (not academically) all four years of college, the team that drafted him has until August 15 following the senior season to sign the player. If the player is not signed by August 15, he becomes a free agent, and he can choose to sign an entry-level contract with any team in the league. Because of that last bit, NHL teams often try to sign college players with actual NHL potential after their Junior season to keep free agency from becoming a temptation.

[CDu]

The NBA has nothing to do with "allowing" Lenard to stay and play.

It was strictly up to the NCAA ... and, as you note, they promptly closed that loophole.

Actually, the NBA very much DOES have something to do with allowing Lenard to play in college after being drafted. Both the NCAA and NBA have interests here. Both had to allow it. And both allowed it for a while (the NBA allowed it but protected the team's draft rights for a time. The NCAA also allowed it for a while before eventually changing the rules.

If the NBA didn't want to allow it, they would have made it more punitive to risk drafting a junior or underclassman. Then teams wouldn't be so willing to risk it for borderline cases.

[MartyClark]

An NHL team can draft a college player (or high school player that will play in the NCAA) and retain his rights while he plays in college. The player retains his NCAA eligibility provided he does not play for a pro team or hire an agent at any point. The team owning the player's rights can sign the player after each college season ends. If the player isn't signed after a season, he can return to his NCAA team for another year. If the player completes (not academically) all four years of college, the team that drafted him has until August 15 following the senior season to sign the player. If the player is not signed by August 15, he becomes a free agent, and he can choose to sign an entry-level contract with any team in the league. Because of that last bit, NHL teams often try to sign college players with actual NHL potential after their Junior season to keep free agency from becoming a temptation.

Great explanation, thanks.

[elvis14]

An NHL team can draft a college player (or high school player that will play in the NCAA) and retain his rights while he plays in college. The player retains his NCAA eligibility provided he does not play for a pro team or hire an agent at any point. The team owning the player's rights can sign the player after each college season ends. If the player isn't signed after a season, he can return to his NCAA team for another year. If the player completes (not academically) all four years of college, the team that drafted him has until August 15 following the senior season to sign the player. If the player is not signed by August 15, he becomes a free agent, and he can choose to sign an entry-level contract with any team in the league. Because of that last bit, NHL teams often try to sign college players with actual NHL potential after their Junior season to keep free agency from becoming a temptation.

I like this. If you take this system and add a rule that says once they go to college they have to stay 2 or 3 years I think we have a winner. Problem solved. What should we tackle next? Brexit? World Peace? Rubic's Cube?

[UrinalCake]

Some similar discussion came up after the NBA Draft when Bilas posed the question of why can't undrafted players return to college? What harm would there be in allowing them to do this, as long as they haven't hired an agent or received money? Cat Barber was used as an example, he was projected towards the middle to end of the second round in most mocks, made the sensible decision to go so he could start supporting his child, and now will instead have to fight to earn a spot as an undrafted free agent and maybe hit the D-league.

Setting aside everything you assume to be true based on the way the current rules exist, what would be the inherent harm in allowing undrafted players to go back to school? I suppose the NBA doesn't want every single player to declare when they have no intention of actually staying, but there are already some natural filters in place for that. Only a certain number of players get invited to the combine - around 70 I believe - and teams can choose if they want to bring other players in for workouts. So if some Joe Schmoe who has no chance of being drafted decides to declare, it doesn't really matter because no team is going to waste their time on him. From the school's perspective, they obviously don't want this because it would be a real headache for coaches to not know if a player is coming back until late June. You'd have to hold a scholarship available in case he came back, and wouldn't be able to offer it to someone else until you knew for sure. But I think they could deal with this. Coaches are paid millions of dollars, they can figure out a way to make it work if it means the players have more options.

Another issue that has gotten some attention lately is allowing players to hire agents and still maintain eligibility. As Gary Parrish put it, if he (as an adult with years of work experience) were faced with a major life-changing decision, he would consult some experts before doing so - lawyers, agents, advisors, whatever you want to call them. So the fact that we expect an 18 year-old kid to make such an enormous decision as whether or not to turn pro without any professional help is ludicrous. On top of that, if he does decide to go pro then he only has a short amount of time to decide on an agent and hire one, maybe a matter of days. Except that he hasn't been able to even talk to any of these agents until now, so he has no idea which one to hire. It seems that there should be a way that players can hire an agent, receive advise and guidance through the process of declaring, go to the combine, etc., and if they decide to stay in school then they can either retain that agent for the following year or not. The term "agent" is basically a dirty word in NCAA parlance, but if you replace it with "lawyer" then maybe it doesn't sound so bad.

[sagegrouse]

Another issue that has gotten some attention lately is allowing players to hire agents and still maintain eligibility. As Gary Parrish put it, if he (as an adult with years of work experience) were faced with a major life-changing decision, he would consult some experts before doing so - lawyers, agents, advisors, whatever you want to call them. So the fact that we expect an 18 year-old kid to make such an enormous decision as whether or not to turn pro without any professional help is ludicrous. On top of that, if he does decide to go pro then he only has a short amount of time to decide on an agent and hire one, maybe a matter of days. Except that he hasn't been able to even talk to any of these agents until now, so he has no idea which one to hire. It seems that there should be a way that players can hire an agent, receive advise and guidance through the process of declaring, go to the combine, etc., and if they decide to stay in school then they can either retain that agent for the following year or not. The term "agent" is basically a dirty word in NCAA parlance, but if you replace it with "lawyer" then maybe it doesn't sound so bad.Perfectly reasonable, U.C. I wonder how many parents (as opposed to athletes) systematically talk to prospective agents or other advisers in the process of advising their son. I don't believe that such conversations, or even engaging an advisor (without signing an agent contract), are against NCAA rules.

The other avenue, of course, is investigation by the athlete's college coaches. Clearly there are some conflicts of interest here, but some coaches are known for giving accurate advice to players on the basis of discussion with NBA teams or NBA scouts.

[kmspeaks]

Setting aside everything you assume to be true based on the way the current rules exist, what would be the inherent harm in allowing undrafted players to go back to school? I suppose the NBA doesn't want every single player to declare when they have no intention of actually staying, but there are already some natural filters in place for that. Only a certain number of players get invited to the combine - around 70 I believe - and teams can choose if they want to bring other players in for workouts. So if some Joe Schmoe who has no chance of being drafted decides to declare, it doesn't really matter because no team is going to waste their time on him. From the school's perspective, they obviously don't want this because it would be a real headache for coaches to not know if a player is coming back until late June. You'd have to hold a scholarship available in case he came back, and wouldn't be able to offer it to someone else until you knew for sure. But I think they could deal with this. Coaches are paid millions of dollars, they can figure out a way to make it work if it means the players have more options.



College baseball coaches have figured out a way to make it work. MLB draftees have until August 15th to sign or decide to go to/return to school. That's cutting it real tight with regards to fall semesters starting plus baseball coaches are walking more of a scholarship tight rope anyways with only 11.7 to give away. If they can deal with it, I'm sure the basketball coaches will be ok. Plus it might give Roy something more to whine about and who doesn't love a good whining Roy presser?

[MartyClark]

Some similar discussion came up after the NBA Draft when Bilas posed the question of why can't undrafted players return to college? What harm would there be in allowing them to do this, as long as they haven't hired an agent or received money? Cat Barber was used as an example, he was projected towards the middle to end of the second round in most mocks, made the sensible decision to go so he could start supporting his child, and now will instead have to fight to earn a spot as an undrafted free agent and maybe hit the D-league.

Setting aside everything you assume to be true based on the way the current rules exist, what would be the inherent harm in allowing undrafted players to go back to school? I suppose the NBA doesn't want every single player to declare when they have no intention of actually staying, but there are already some natural filters in place for that. Only a certain number of players get invited to the combine - around 70 I believe - and teams can choose if they want to bring other players in for workouts. So if some Joe Schmoe who has no chance of being drafted decides to declare, it doesn't really matter because no team is going to waste their time on him. From the school's perspective, they obviously don't want this because it would be a real headache for coaches to not know if a player is coming back until late June. You'd have to hold a scholarship available in case he came back, and wouldn't be able to offer it to someone else until you knew for sure. But I think they could deal with this. Coaches are paid millions of dollars, they can figure out a way to make it work if it means the players have more options.

Another issue that has gotten some attention lately is allowing players to hire agents and still maintain eligibility. As Gary Parrish put it, if he (as an adult with years of work experience) were faced with a major life-changing decision, he would consult some experts before doing so - lawyers, agents, advisors, whatever you want to call them. So the fact that we expect an 18 year-old kid to make such an enormous decision as whether or not to turn pro without any professional help is ludicrous. On top of that, if he does decide to go pro then he only has a short amount of time to decide on an agent and hire one, maybe a matter of days. Except that he hasn't been able to even talk to any of these agents until now, so he has no idea which one to hire. It seems that there should be a way that players can hire an agent, receive advise and guidance through the process of declaring, go to the combine, etc., and if they decide to stay in school then they can either retain that agent for the following year or not. The term "agent" is basically a dirty word in NCAA parlance, but if you replace it with "lawyer" then maybe it doesn't sound so bad.

I agree with you. I also see a couple of problems, neither insurmountable. First, I think it will be a real challenge for young guy to attend class and maintain grades when he is going to combines, talking with agents, and hoping to be drafted. Second, I think it places a bit of additional pressure on the coach and school in terms of recruiting. It places some additional uncertainty on the number of available scholarships and late recruiting.

Big picture though, I think this makes great sense. It's good for the kid and ultimately, I think, good for college basketball.