Retired Jersey Discussion thread

[Olympic Fan]

Just to interject the same comment I always interject whenever we start talking bout jerseys in the rafters -- there is only one hard-and-fast criteria: the candidate must have his degree.

Even that is a late addition. For many years, jerseys were retired in either the final home game or the next to last home game of a player's career. That was before they were guaranteed graduation. One player had his jersey retired then didn't graduate as expected -- Christian Laettner. He had to return for a summer school course to earn his degree. In recent years, jerseys have been retired in the season following a player's graduation.

Other than that, there is no strict qualifying standard. National player of the year? Yes, except that Elton Brand was the consensus NPOY in 1999 and his didn't get his jersey retired (because he didn't graduate).

National Defensive Player of the Year was the excuse for Shelden, but Tommy Amaker and Wojo were also NDPOY and didn't get their jersey retired (Grant Hill and Battier did, but they were also the overall NPOY).

Bobby Hurley was never NPOY or NDPOY. He was first-team All-American as a senior (he wasn't even consensus third team as a freshman, soph or junior). The excuse given for honoring him was his NCAA record for career assists.

Jeff Mullins' jersey is in the rafters and he was never NPOY, NDPOY or even consensus first-team All-America (although he just missed in 1964). Mike Gminski was consensus first-team A-A in 1979 (and consensus second team in 1980), but never sniffed NPOY.

On the other hand, consensus first-team All-Americans Bob Verga and Chris Carrawell and Nolan Smith all graduated and are not in the rafters. (Jabari Parker and Jahlil Okafor were first team picks, but didn't graduate),

So, I'll repeat, the criteria for hanging a jersey is whatever Coach K decides ... other than graduation. And what the heck, if he decided to honor a non-graduate, he could probably do that too.

As for Grayson, if he has a great junior year, leads Duke to another national championship -- AND GRADUATES -- I could see his jersey being retired, whether he wins national player of the year honors or not. I would think he probably needs to be a consensus first-team All-American, but even that is not certain.

[unexpected]

Just to interject the same comment I always interject whenever we start talking bout jerseys in the rafters -- there is only one hard-and-fast criteria: the candidate must have his degree.

Even that is a late addition. For many years, jerseys were retired in either the final home game or the next to last home game of a player's career. That was before they were guaranteed graduation. One player had his jersey retired then didn't graduate as expected -- Christian Laettner. He had to return for a summer school course to earn his degree. In recent years, jerseys have been retired in the season following a player's graduation.

Other than that, there is no strict qualifying standard. National player of the year? Yes, except that Elton Brand was the consensus NPOY in 1999 and his didn't get his jersey retired (because he didn't graduate).

National Defensive Player of the Year was the excuse for Shelden, but Tommy Amaker and Wojo were also NDPOY and didn't get their jersey retired (Grant Hill and Battier did, but they were also the overall NPOY).

Bobby Hurley was never NPOY or NDPOY. He was first-team All-American as a senior (he wasn't even consensus third team as a freshman, soph or junior). The excuse given for honoring him was his NCAA record for career assists.

Jeff Mullins' jersey is in the rafters and he was never NPOY, NDPOY or even consensus first-team All-America (although he just missed in 1964). Mike Gminski was consensus first-team A-A in 1979 (and consensus second team in 1980), but never sniffed NPOY.

On the other hand, consensus first-team All-Americans Bob Verga and Chris Carrawell and Nolan Smith all graduated and are not in the rafters. (Jabari Parker and Jahlil Okafor were first team picks, but didn't graduate),

So, I'll repeat, the criteria for hanging a jersey is whatever Coach K decides ... other than graduation. And what the heck, if he decided to honor a non-graduate, he could probably do that too.

As for Grayson, if he has a great junior year, leads Duke to another national championship -- AND GRADUATES -- I could see his jersey being retired, whether he wins national player of the year honors or not. I would think he probably needs to be a consensus first-team All-American, but even that is not certain.

I think some of these examples are before K's time, so I don't think we can apply them here, but I read somewhere on goDuke.com that a player:

1) MUST GRADUATE

Then

1) Win a National Award, OR
2) Break an NCAA Record, OR
3) Win an Olympic Gold Medal

Mullins and Gminski we should remove from this list, K did not decide their jersey retirement. But according to this list Amaker and Wojo should also be retired.

I was always told that Carrawell did not graduate until much later (after his professional career was over). I remember hearing that K would not even hang the banners the team earned from Carrawell's senior year (2000) until he graduated (I'm not sure if this is true, but definitely urban legend while I was at Duke).

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If we are doing this all over again, it must be time to reference the sticky thread again.

Yay, offseason!

[Kedsy]

Every player who has had their jersey retired has won a National Player of the Year Award.

This is clearly untrue. Five out of 13 Duke retired jerseys (38.5%) did NOT win NPOY, although two of those five won NDPOY. Mike Gminski, Bobby Hurley, and Jeff Mullins didn't win any kind of national player of the year.

Oly is right. There is no tried and true test. If Coach K wants a player's jersey retired, it's going to be retired.

[unexpected]

This is clearly untrue. Five out of 13 Duke retired jerseys (38.5%) did NOT win NPOY, although two of those five won NDPOY. Mike Gminski, Bobby Hurley, and Jeff Mullins didn't win any kind of national player of the year.

Oly is right. There is no tried and true test. If Coach K wants a player's jersey retired, it's going to be retired.

I mentioned the NDPOY as a "National Level Award".

Gminski and Mullins were before K era - I don't think K had a hand in those retirements.

Hurley's retirement was for breaking the NCAA record for assists, mentioned in the thread above.
Shelden William's became Duke's leader in rebounds and blocks.

This has been discussed repeatedly before, so I'm not sure it's worth discussing again. If Grayson is alpha next year and can get some serious (good) publicity, he could win NPOY - he is certainly a candidate for it - he of course will have his jersey retired.

However, if we're sitting here a year from now and he's had an identical season (2nd team all-american) and we've been to a final four/natty (knock on wood!), then I don't think we should get our hopes up. Grayson will need something of numerical significance to hang his hat on. How does he get there? I WANT him to get there, as it means very good things for the team, but he needs to improve his game and get to this level.

It's very clear that Grayson is the leader of all our hearts, which is great too!

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

I think some of these examples are before K's time, so I don't think we can apply them here, but I read somewhere on goDuke.com that a player:

1) MUST GRADUATE

Then

1) Win a National Award, OR
2) Break an NCAA Record, OR
3) Win an Olympic Gold Medal

Mullins and Gminski we should remove from this list, K did not decide their jersey retirement. But according to this list Amaker and Wojo should also be retired.

I was always told that Carrawell did not graduate until much later (after his professional career was over). I remember hearing that K would not even hang the banners the team earned from Carrawell's senior year (2000) until he graduated (I'm not sure if this is true, but definitely urban legend while I was at Duke).

Jeff Mullins won an Olympic gold medal in 1964.

[Jim3k]

Gminski and Mullins were before K era - I don't think K had a hand in those retirements.



This is not exactly so. AD Eddie Cameron had declared that no number would be retired after Groat. That number, 10, was retired in 1952. Bubas arrived in 1959 and his best players were Heyman, Mullins, Verga and Marin. Cameron's rule was not challenged. AD Butters proved to be a bit less restrictive about Cameron's rule. Under Bill Foster the rule had been broken with Gminski's 1980 retirement.

Butters later hired Krzyzewski. K's first retirement candidate was Dawkins in 1986, followed by Ferry in 1989. At that point, a question arose whether post-Cameron players other than Gminski should be considered. After all, some of them were pretty great. K consulted with Bubas on the issue. Bubas recommended both Heyman and Mullins, a devastating duo. So, in 1990, K decided to retire Heyman's number (25). He had been the consensus POY in 1963 and clearly deserved it. K later retired Mullins's number (44) in 1994. There remains a movement to retire Verga's number. As far as honors are concerned, Heyman's POY stands alone, though the others from that era were honored as AAs, consensus or not.

But the fact remains, K was indeed involved in the Jersey retirements of Heyman and Mullins, albeit with a push from Bubas.

[Skitzle]

This is so not the thread for this...

Anyway. Awards matter, but career numbers also matter.

Looking at K ERA retirements
Hear are some numbers for each
Key: Player - Stat (Career Rank at Graduation)[Current Rank All Time]

Dawkins - Pts (1)[2] - Assts [6]
Ferry - Pts (3)[6] - Rbs [8] - Assts [8]
Laettner - Pts (2)[3] - Rbs (2)[3] - Blks (3)[6] - Stls [4]
Hurley - Assts (1)[1] - Stls [9]
Hill - Pts (9)[14] - Asts [10] - Blocks [7] - Stls [6]
Battier - Pts (9)[12] - Steals (1)[2] - Blocks [5]
J. Williams - Pts (6)[8] - Assts (3)[4] - Stls (4)[5] IN THREE SEASONS!!
S. Williams - Rbs (1)[1] - Blks [1]
Redick - Pts (1)[1] - 3s (1)[1]

All these guys except JJ had/have top 10 numbers in multiple categories. Reddick is the Points LEADER you have to retire that jersey.

Brand may have been NPOY but the numbers aren't there.
Singler has the numbers but no National anything.

Please don't forget that numbers matter.

If Grayson were to get a jersey retired, he probably needs to stay 4 seasons just to get his numbers in place.
That said, Three Seasons, 2 Championships, an NPOY, and MIP in the national championship game could make him the first player where numbers didn't matter as much. Wishful thinking?

[Spanarkel]

This is so not the thread for this...

career numbers also matter.

Jim Spanarkel's career numbers are awesome imo: >2K points without benefit of 3 pointers or several extended(>35 games)seasons/>50% FG all four years/lots of steals/fine leader/excellent character as far as I know. I haven't seen any momentum for his jersey to be retired.
(FWIW, Laettner, Hurley, GHill, Battier and other Duke greats played between 139-148 games in their careers vs. Spanarkel's 114. At his average of ~17.5ppg, those extra 25+ games would be worth ~450points, boosting him well into the upper echelon of all-time points leaders. Part of the "extra" games is of course due to the unbelievable post-season success of Laettner et al(vs. Spanarkel's teams' one championship game appearance)and part is due to the longer current regular seasons.)

[Atldukie79]

This is so not the thread for this...

Anyway. Awards matter, but career numbers also matter.

Looking at K ERA retirements
Hear are some numbers for each
Key: Player - Stat (Career Rank at Graduation)[Current Rank All Time]

Dawkins - Pts (1)[2] - Assts [6]
Ferry - Pts (3)[6] - Rbs [8] - Assts [8]
Laettner - Pts (2)[3] - Rbs (2)[3] - Blks (3)[6] - Stls [4]
Hurley - Assts (1)[1] - Stls [9]
Hill - Pts (9)[14] - Asts [10] - Blocks [7] - Stls [6]
Battier - Pts (9)[12] - Steals (1)[2] - Blocks [5]
J. Williams - Pts (6)[8] - Assts (3)[4] - Stls (4)[5] IN THREE SEASONS!!
S. Williams - Rbs (1)[1] - Blks [1]
Redick - Pts (1)[1] - 3s (1)[1]

All these guys except JJ had/have top 10 numbers in multiple categories. Reddick is the Points LEADER you have to retire that jersey.

Brand may have been NPOY but the numbers aren't there.
Singler has the numbers but no National anything.

Please don't forget that numbers matter.

If Grayson were to get a jersey retired, he probably needs to stay 4 seasons just to get his numbers in place.
That said, Three Seasons, 2 Championships, an NPOY, and MIP in the national championship game could make him the first player where numbers didn't matter as much. Wishful thinking?

While I agree that numbers matter, allow me to expand on your quote regarding Jay Williams "IN THREE SEASONS!!".
Numbers also mislead.

If you choose to use career rankings as criteria, you have to consider how many games a player actually played. Or more important, how many games they were able to play.

Many of the great 1960s players probably had a maximum number of between 75-90 games. Three seasons of eligibility and regular seasons in the 25 range (plus post season) limited their number of games and therefore potential career rankings. Modern players have a possible game count of between 125- 160 games.

Clearly longevity matters to rafter recognition, but intensity does too.

Bob Verga, for example, was JJ before JJ was born. Extrapolate Verga's stats over an equivalent number of games as JJ played and you get similar results.

By the way, I am recalling these numbers from memory...no time to do the research.

At the end of the day, this is more about judgment than rules.

I enjoy comparing stats as much as you, but career stats are but one element to consider.

[sagegrouse]

Sage, I do not mean to be snarky, but I don't think this is a usual test. Every player who has had their jersey retired has won a National Player of the Year Award. It's just coincidental that the guys who have won the NPOY awards have also been All Americans for at least two years.

It hurts to see guys we love not get the recognition they deserve. People wanted Duhon's jersey retired back in 2006. Others have wanted Smith/Scheyer/Singler's jersey retired. As an institution, I do not think we should lower our standards than what they are - I do not want to see us become like the University of Texas, who retired Kevin Durant's jersey after he led them to the Sweet 16 and peaced out (well, he won NPOY of the year - the first freshman ever, so there's that)

Unexpected, you are not "snarky," but you are not correct either. There are five retired jerseys for players who were not NPOY:

Jeff Mullins
Mike Gminski
Bobby Hurley
Grant Hill
Shelden Williams

Plus, Johnny Dawkins was NPOY for one award

The rest of the retired jerseys were more or less consensus NPOY's

The two-time All-American standard was often discussed as the test 10-15 years ago. It also helps to have national and international recognition beyond Duke

Here's where these five plus Dawkins stand per the Duke BB Media Guide:

Mullins -- non-consensus A-A in 1963; second team in 1964; Duke's first two Final Fours; Duke's first Olympic gold, NBA All-Star and NBA champion; former Duke asst. AD

Mike Gminski -- 1st team A-A in 1979 and 2nd team in 1980; Final Four; as a fillip -- twice 1st team Academic A-A

Bobby Hurley -- non-consensus A-A in 1992; 1st team A-A in 1993; PG on Duke's first two Natl. Championships plus another Final Four

Grant Hill -- non-consensus A-A in 1992; 2nd team A-A in 1993; 1st team in 1994; NDPOY in 1993; many time NBA All-Star; Olympic gold medalist

Shelden Williams -- non-consensus A-A in 2004 and 2005; 1st team A-A in 2006; two-time NDPOY

Johnny Dawkins was not a consensus NPOY but was a two-time first team All-American

The only player without a jersey in the rafters who was a two-time consensus A-A is Bob Verga, who was 2nd team in 1966 and 1st team in 1967.

Players you mentioned -- Duhon, Nolan Smith, Scheyer and Singler don't come close to these tests of national and international recognition -- although they were terrific players for Duke.

Kindly,
Sage
'BTW I didn't go over the other quals of the NPOY's: Groat (2nd and 1st), Heyman (non-consensus, 2nd, 1st), Ferry (2nd and 1st), Laettner (NC, 2nd, 1st), Battier (2nd and 1st), Jay Williams (1st and 1st), and Redick (NC, 1st, 1st).

[CrazyNotCrazie]

As much as it really, really pains me to say it, I kind of like the UNCheat system of retired and honored jerseys. That way you can recognize players who were stars but not the elite of the elite. One could argue that it cheapens the retired jerseys a bit but I like it. Of course, then we would be arguing about guys who are on the fringe of that award.

Also, I think it might be helpful for the mods to spin this off to a separate thread? It is always an interesting off-season conversation, but it has taken over a thread that should be devoted to another important topic.

[Spanarkel]

Just curious, what are the rational and/or stat-supported and/or simply subjective reasons for NOT seriously considering the retirement of Jim Spanarkel's jersey? When I think of quintessential Duke players, my mind quickly conjures up Ferry, Hurley, Battier, and, yes, Spanarkel(among many other Duke greats we've all been privileged to cheer for): guys whose court smarts and will to win allowed them to achieve more perhaps than one would think based on their physical attributes alone. Hoping for some reasoned and insightful commentary-thanks!

[Olympic Fan]

Just to clear up a few items on the jersey retirement issue:

-- The so-called criteria that unexpected listed from goduke.com are wrong. As I pointed out before, we've had two NDOPY who were not honored. We've had several Olympic Gold Medal winners not honored, including Tate Armstrong (1976) and Carlos Boozer (2008). The rules listed are explanation of why some (but not all) of the players were honored. They are not rules per se,

-- If numbers are so amazing, then look at Bob Verga -- with a career average of 22.0 points per game, that's better than Redick (19.9) or Jason Williams (19.3) ... and that was without benefit of a three-point shot (and Verga might have beebn the best long-range shooter in Duke history). You might also want to look at Randy Denton, whose career scoring average of 19.7 points a game is better than any K player other than Redick and who is also the top rebounder per game in Duke history (12.7 for his career). It's a shame they didn't count blocks in that era, because Denton would be very high on that list too. BTW: If Art Heyman had played the same number of games as JJ Redick, he would have scored 3,488 career points more than 700 points more than Redick.

-- K had nothing to do with the retirement decisions for Groat or Gminski. But he made the final call on every other player whose jersey is in the rafters -- including Heyman and Mullins (acting on advice from Vic Bubas, yes, but still K's call).

I keep saying what AtlDukie79 said so well "At the end of the day, this is more about judgment than rules."

As long as we remember, it's about K's judgment ... period. He decides, based on whatever criteria he wants to use.

[unexpected]

Just to clear up a few items on the jersey retirement issue:

-- The so-called criteria that unexpected listed from goduke.com are wrong. As I pointed out before, we've had two NDOPY who were not honored. We've had several Olympic Gold Medal winners not honored, including Tate Armstrong (1976) and Carlos Boozer (2008). The rules listed are explanation of why some (but not all) of the players were honored. They are not rules per se,

-- If numbers are so amazing, then look at Bob Verga -- with a career average of 22.0 points per game, that's better than Redick (19.9) or Jason Williams (19.3) ... and that was without benefit of a three-point shot (and Verga might have beebn the best long-range shooter in Duke history). You might also want to look at Randy Denton, whose career scoring average of 19.7 points a game is better than any K player other than Redick and who is also the top rebounder per game in Duke history (12.7 for his career). It's a shame they didn't count blocks in that era, because Denton would be very high on that list too. BTW: If Art Heyman had played the same number of games as JJ Redick, he would have scored 3,488 career points more than 700 points more than Redick.

-- K had nothing to do with the retirement decisions for Groat or Gminski. But he made the final call on every other player whose jersey is in the rafters -- including Heyman and Mullins (acting on advice from Vic Bubas, yes, but still K's call).

I keep saying what AtlDukie79 said so well "At the end of the day, this is more about judgment than rules."

As long as we remember, it's about K's judgment ... period. He decides, based on whatever criteria he wants to use.

All fair points, I will say that people keep throwing up examples from 30-40 years ago - I don't feel like this is a good indication of what would happen today.

On Boozer - did he meet criteria #1 - did he ever graduate? I'm not entirely sure. Additionally, It's not clear to me if the "Gold Medal Standard" applies only while the athlete is in school (back when college olympic basketball players were a thing) or can be applied if they earn a gold medal later in life (and really with the NBA Dream Teams as of late, this would be almost too easy).

[Olympic Fan]

All fair points, I will say that people keep throwing up examples from 30-40 years ago - I don't feel like this is a good indication of what would happen today.

On Boozer - did he meet criteria #1 - did he ever graduate? I'm not entirely sure. Additionally, It's not clear to me if the "Gold Medal Standard" applies only while the athlete is in school (back when college olympic basketball players were a thing) or can be applied if they earn a gold medal later in life (and really with the NBA Dream Teams as of late, this would be almost too easy).

You not sure, because there is no such "rule" ... it's all based on people looking at criteria and suggesting reasons that don't exit.

Not sure if Boozer graduated (I think he did), but I know Tate Armstrong did and he won an Olympic Gold in the summer between his junior and senior year. In fact, he's the only active Duke player to win a Gold Medal (Mullins, Laettner, Grant Hill and Boozer won after graduation).

So if Olympic Gold is really a criteria -- and it's the only "rule" that can explain K's decision to hang Mullins' jersey in the rafters -- then why doesn't K honor Olympic Gold Medal winner Tate Armstrong?

(Note: I know that Tate played little for the 1976 Gold Medal team, but Jeff didn't play that much for the 1964 Gold Medal team).

The answer is easy -- there is no such rule and never has been.

[TruBlu]

IIRC Tate averaged more points per minute than anyone on the Olympic team. The coach was Dean Smith, I think.

(If I am incorrect, please correct me, although it would be rare for the Internet.)

[Indoor66]

IIRC Tate averaged more points per minute than anyone on the Olympic team. The coach was Dean Smith, I think.

(If I am incorrect, please correct me, although it would be rare for the Internet.)

You get a gold star on the coaching issue.

In looking at that list, check out who the assistant was for the Larry Brown debacle in 2004!
(http://archive.usab.com/mens/national/moly_coaches.html)

[unexpected]

You not sure, because there is no such "rule" ... it's all based on people looking at criteria and suggesting reasons that don't exit.

Not sure if Boozer graduated (I think he did), but I know Tate Armstrong did and he won an Olympic Gold in the summer between his junior and senior year. In fact, he's the only active Duke player to win a Gold Medal (Mullins, Laettner, Grant Hill and Boozer won after graduation).

So if Olympic Gold is really a criteria -- and it's the only "rule" that can explain K's decision to hang Mullins' jersey in the rafters -- then why doesn't K honor Olympic Gold Medal winner Tate Armstrong?

(Note: I know that Tate played little for the 1976 Gold Medal team, but Jeff didn't play that much for the 1964 Gold Medal team).

The answer is easy -- there is no such rule and never has been.

Okay! You are right and the Duke Media Guide is wrong!

[Indoor66]

Okay! You are right and the Duke Media Guide is wrong!

I don't know the resolution of the disagreement on who retired what, but here are the players and dates (http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/media-guides/mbb/2014-15/Tradition%20106-120.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=4200):

0 - Dick Groat May 1, 1952
25 - Art Heyman
March 4, 1990
44 - Jeff Mullins
December 6, 1994
43 - Mike Gminski
February 20, 1980
24 - Johnny Dawkins
February 22, 1986
35 - Danny Ferry
February 18, 1989
32 - Christian Laettner
February 26, 1992
11 - Bobby Hurley
February 28, 1993
33 - Grant Hill
February 27, 1994
31 - Shane Battier
February 21, 2001
22 - Jason Williams
February 5, 2003
23 - Shelden Williams
January 28, 2007
4 - J.J. Redick
February 4, 2007

[unexpected]

I don't know the resolution of the disagreement on who retired what, but here are the players and dates (http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/media-guides/mbb/2014-15/Tradition%20106-120.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=4200):

0 - Dick Groat May 1, 1952
25 - Art Heyman
March 4, 1990
44 - Jeff Mullins
December 6, 1994
43 - Mike Gminski
February 20, 1980
24 - Johnny Dawkins
February 22, 1986
35 - Danny Ferry
February 18, 1989
32 - Christian Laettner
February 26, 1992
11 - Bobby Hurley
February 28, 1993
33 - Grant Hill
February 27, 1994
31 - Shane Battier
February 21, 2001
22 - Jason Williams
February 5, 2003
23 - Shelden Williams
January 28, 2007
4 - J.J. Redick
February 4, 2007

It's also worth noting that Jersey Retirement Standards will perpetually trend upwards, since players need numbers to wear! I'm tired of seeing so many #2's and #15's (but at least you get multiple uses out of the jersey).

[jv001]

I don't know the resolution of the disagreement on who retired what, but here are the players and dates (http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/media-guides/mbb/2014-15/Tradition%20106-120.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=4200):

0 - Dick Groat May 1, 1952
25 - Art Heyman
March 4, 1990
44 - Jeff Mullins
December 6, 1994
43 - Mike Gminski
February 20, 1980
24 - Johnny Dawkins
February 22, 1986
35 - Danny Ferry
February 18, 1989
32 - Christian Laettner
February 26, 1992
11 - Bobby Hurley
February 28, 1993
33 - Grant Hill
February 27, 1994
31 - Shane Battier
February 21, 2001
22 - Jason Williams
February 5, 2003
23 - Shelden Williams
January 28, 2007
4 - J.J. Redick
February 4, 2007

Thanks for posting this information because I had thought for years that Dick Groat's number was #10. Thanks for that information. GoDuke!

I failed to click the link you gave. Groat's number was #10 and I wasn't being snarky with the first post. GoDuke!

[CrazyNotCrazie]

It's also worth noting that Jersey Retirement Standards will perpetually trend upwards, since players need numbers to wear! I'm tired of seeing so many #2's and #15's (but at least you get multiple uses out of the jersey).

Yes - the Nolan Smith jersey I bought for my oldest kid turned into a Quin Cook jersey and is now a Chase Jeter jersey!

[unexpected]

Yes - the Nolan Smith jersey I bought for my oldest kid turned into a Quin Cook jersey and is now a Chase Jeter jersey!

When I met Jahlil Okafor's dad prior to the Elite Eight in Houston, I told him that Sean Dockery was my favorite Duke player!

[Indoor66]

Thanks for posting this information because I had thought for years that Dick Groat's number was #10. Thanks for that information. GoDuke!

I failed to click the link you gave. Groat's number was #10 and I wasn't being snarky with the first post. GoDuke!

Sorry about that. I must have missed the first digit when I copied - which I did from the bottom up. :D :cool:

[Olympic Fan]

Okay! You are right and the Duke Media Guide is wrong!

I have the media guide in front of me ... please cite the page where I contradict the media guide.

Is it about the fact that it was K's decision to retire Mullins' jersey?

If so, I suggest you check page 110, which lists the retirement dates for the 13 players that have been honored.

The date for Mullins was Dec. 6, 1994 -- 14 years after K took over the Duke program

If you've found something in the guide that contradicts that, please point it out.

You might be referring to the paragraph that is also on that page, which starts out by saying that "there is no 'official' criteria to have a jersey retired at Duke. The paragraph goes on to say that "a player must have achieved at a national level." It then offers examples of that kind of achievement, but nowhere suggests those are criteria for selection. In fact, as I noted, the graph starts off by saying there are NO criteria. The achievements cited -- national player of the year, national defensive player of the year, Olympic gold medal or All-America recognition certainly cover the 13 inductees, but under those standards more than a dozen other players would quality.

Then final part of the graph does contradict the opening of the graph because it does cite one criteria -- that a play must have his degree. As I noted earlier, that's a late-added criteria -- eight of the 13 players had their jerseys retired BEFORE they achieved graduation (although all eight were on track to graduate). the only exceptions are Heyman and Mullins, both retired decades after their graduation and the three most recent honorees.

And please allow me to correct one mistake from earlier in this thread. The poster who suggested that Carrawell did not graduate and that K would not hang the banner for his class is confusing Carrawell and his class with Phil Henderson and his class in 1990. K wouldn't hang that Final Four banner until Henderson, Robert Brickey and Alaa Abdelnaby all got their degrees. Brickey and Abdelnaby did it within a year, but it took Phil until the late 1990s to graduate ... and then the banner went up.

[Steven43]

I don't know the resolution of the disagreement on who retired what, but here are the players and dates (http://www.goduke.com/fls/4200/media-guides/mbb/2014-15/Tradition%20106-120.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=4200):

0 - Dick Groat May 1, 1952
25 - Art Heyman
March 4, 1990
44 - Jeff Mullins
December 6, 1994
43 - Mike Gminski
February 20, 1980
24 - Johnny Dawkins
February 22, 1986
35 - Danny Ferry
February 18, 1989
32 - Christian Laettner
February 26, 1992
11 - Bobby Hurley
February 28, 1993
33 - Grant Hill
February 27, 1994
31 - Shane Battier
February 21, 2001
22 - Jason Williams
February 5, 2003
23 - Shelden Williams
January 28, 2007
4 - J.J. Redick
February 4, 2007
I scanned that list name by name and the only one I questioned even slightly was Shelden Williams. I just don't see him as an all-time elite Duke basketball player.

I enjoyed having Shelden on the team and thought he was a good player, but retired jersey at Duke? I'm sorry, but no. Yes, Shelden had big numbers of rebounds and blocked shots. I get that. But numbers alone can be very deceptive.

In my mind, to be an all-time great at Duke University, the premier basketball program of the last half century, you must be the type of rare player who consistently struck fear into the collective hearts of the opposition. Shelden did not.

[-jk]

Unexpected, you are not "snarky," but you are not correct either. There are five retired jerseys for players who were not NPOY:

Jeff Mullins
Mike Gminski
Bobby Hurley
Grant Hill
Shelden Williams

Plus, Johnny Dawkins was NPOY for one award

The rest of the retired jerseys were more or less consensus NPOY's

The two-time All-American standard was often discussed as the test 10-15 years ago. It also helps to have national and international recognition beyond Duke

Here's where these five plus Dawkins stand per the Duke BB Media Guide:

Mullins -- non-consensus A-A in 1963; second team in 1964; Duke's first two Final Fours; Duke's first Olympic gold, NBA All-Star and NBA champion; former Duke asst. AD

Mike Gminski -- 1st team A-A in 1979 and 2nd team in 1980; Final Four; as a fillip -- twice 1st team Academic A-A

Bobby Hurley -- non-consensus A-A in 1992; 1st team A-A in 1993; PG on Duke's first two Natl. Championships plus another Final Four

Grant Hill -- non-consensus A-A in 1992; 2nd team A-A in 1993; 1st team in 1994; NDPOY in 1993; many time NBA All-Star; Olympic gold medalist

Shelden Williams -- non-consensus A-A in 2004 and 2005; 1st team A-A in 2006; two-time NDPOY

Johnny Dawkins was not a consensus NPOY but was a two-time first team All-American

The only player without a jersey in the rafters who was a two-time consensus A-A is Bob Verga, who was 2nd team in 1966 and 1st team in 1967.

Players you mentioned -- Duhon, Nolan Smith, Scheyer and Singler don't come close to these tests of national and international recognition -- although they were terrific players for Duke.

Kindly,
Sage
'BTW I didn't go over the other quals of the NPOY's: Groat (2nd and 1st), Heyman (non-consensus, 2nd, 1st), Ferry (2nd and 1st), Laettner (NC, 2nd, 1st), Battier (2nd and 1st), Jay Williams (1st and 1st), and Redick (NC, 1st, 1st).

IIRC, you can add "all time Duke scoring leader" to G-man in his day. Dawkins, too. And JJ. No small achievement for any of them...

(And JJ should still have the ACC record, but that ship has sailed with the pilot...)

-jk

[WVDUKEFAN]

I think Mullins completed his career in 1964 and never played for Coach K.

[-jk]

I think Mullins completed his career in 1964 and never played for Coach K.

Bubas was great, but Mullins' jersey didn't get retired until K insisted...

-jk

[fgb]

Who will be the first to commit ?

dick groat or jeff mullins? hard to say, but there's a decent chance we get both.

[phaedrus]

;
Players you mentioned -- Duhon, Nolan Smith, Scheyer and Singler don't come close to these tests of national and international recognition -- although they were terrific players for Duke.

Kindly,
Sage
'BTW I didn't go over the other quals of the NPOY's: Groat (2nd and 1st), Heyman (non-consensus, 2nd, 1st), Ferry (2nd and 1st), Laettner (NC, 2nd, 1st), Battier (2nd and 1st), Jay Williams (1st and 1st), and Redick (NC, 1st, 1st).

Actually, Smith did come close. In 2011, he was generally considered the runner up for NPOY, behind Jimmer. Many thought he should have won. (Query whether his number would be in the rafters if he had.) He was also, of course, consensus first team all American that year. The year before, he missed out on the AA teams but was second team All ACC and more importantly, All Final Four.

[sagegrouse]

Actually, Smith did come close. In 2011, he was generally considered the runner up for NPOY, behind Jimmer. Many thought he should have won. (Query whether his number would be in the rafters if he had.) He was also, of course, consensus first team all American that year. The year before, he missed out on the AA teams but was second team All ACC and more importantly, All Final Four.

For a while it looked like Nolan had a chance to be National Player of the Year. That was when K started talking up Singler's accomplishments at Duke -- primarily in career stats. It sounded like, if Nolan made it, Kyle's jersey would have been retired as well.

[JasonEvans]

In case you could not tell, this thread was pruned from the 2017 recruiting thread as it bears no real relation to 2017 recruiting**.

--Jason "**- I mean, its not like we were even discussing the merits of retiring Wendell Carter's jersey" Evans

[Wander]

I think some of these examples are before K's time, so I don't think we can apply them here, but I read somewhere on goDuke.com that a player:

1) MUST GRADUATE

Then

1) Win a National Award, OR
2) Break an NCAA Record, OR
3) Win an Olympic Gold Medal

Mullins and Gminski we should remove from this list, K did not decide their jersey retirement. But according to this list Amaker and Wojo should also be retired.

I was always told that Carrawell did not graduate until much later (after his professional career was over). I remember hearing that K would not even hang the banners the team earned from Carrawell's senior year (2000) until he graduated (I'm not sure if this is true, but definitely urban legend while I was at Duke).

This is a bit like the Redskins Rule (which is the idea that the last Redskins home game before a presidential election decides the outcome). There are hundreds of professional sports teams and only 20ish presidential elections since they've been around, so by chance there's going to randomly be a team that correlates well with the outcome.

Similarly, with only 13 retired jerseys, you're bound to be able to come up with some combination of rules that seems to work. It doesn't mean that it's correct. I agree with most people here that there are no rules, except graduating.

[unexpected]

This is a bit like the Redskins Rule (which is the idea that the last Redskins home game before a presidential election decides the outcome). There are hundreds of professional sports teams and only 20ish presidential elections since they've been around, so by chance there's going to randomly be a team that correlates well with the outcome.

Similarly, with only 13 retired jerseys, you're bound to be able to come up with some combination of rules that seems to work. It doesn't mean that it's correct. I agree with most people here that there are no rules, except graduating.

Wander, I do agree with you in the sense that I'm definitely case-fitting - Coach K has intentionally kept it vague to offer himself maximum flexibility. I didn't intend for my post to come off as iron-clad rules - and re-reading, I can see how it does! My intention was to show a set of heuristics which Grayson has not come close to meeting yet.

As time goes by we'll be able to put players in their proper context, but at this stage of his career, both Singler (3-time 1st All-ACC) and Smith (1st Team All-American and ACC POY) have more career accomplishments than Grayson. That's not to denigrate Grayson - he is ahead of their pace, but ultimately they stayed 4 years. Can Grayson pull ahead of their 4-year accomplishments in 3 years? Time will tell.

[msdukie]

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, but the only hard and fast requirement for retirement is graduation. Additionally, there is the ill-defined requirement of an honor of national significance. The ban on retiring jerseys before 1980 has already been hashed out above (the Eddie Cameron was A.D. and he thought Dick Groat was the greatest human ever rule) and it is safe to say that as the national prestige of the program has increased over time (Duke IS currently tied for 3rd most titles and is the 4th winningest program of all time) the difficulty of achievement to merit retirement would also go up (nothing to do with running out of numbers, but Duke Basketball 1992 isn't Duke 2016 in program status). Don't you think that it would be much easier to retire the trinity of Duke's first title teams in the 90s than a few guys on a hypothetical 6 or title 7 decades later when the program's level of prestige changes?

As for the points above about "we should have honored jerseys like the Cheaters" or the "gold medal standard." I would remind you that Duke did create a Hall of Honor that acts in the fashion of honored jerseys and it DOES have officially listed criteria, including winning an Olympic Gold Medal.

[sagegrouse]

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, but the only hard and fast requirement for retirement is graduation. Additionally, there is the ill-defined requirement of an honor of national significance. The ban on retiring jerseys before 1980 has already been hashed out above (the Eddie Cameron was A.D. and he thought Dick Groat was the greatest human ever rule) and it is safe to say that as the national prestige of the program has increased over time (Duke IS currently tied for 3rd most titles and is the 4th winningest program of all time) the difficulty of achievement to merit retirement would also go up (nothing to do with running out of numbers, but Duke Basketball 1992 isn't Duke 2016 in program status). Don't you think that it would be much easier to retire the trinity of Duke's first title teams in the 90s than a few guys on a hypothetical 6 or title 7 decades later when the program's level of prestige changes?

As for the points above about "we should have honored jerseys like the Cheaters" or the "gold medal standard." I would remind you that Duke did create a Hall of Honor that acts in the fashion of honored jerseys and it DOES have officially listed criteria, including winning an Olympic Gold Medal.

Eddie Cameron's argument was that Dick Groat was an All-American in both baseball and basketball; Art Heyman, despite being NPOY, was not a two-sport All-American. Eventually, saner heads prevailed.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

As time goes by we'll be able to put players in their proper context, but at this stage of his career, both Singler (3-time 1st All-ACC) and Smith (1st Team All-American and ACC POY) have more career accomplishments than Grayson. That's not to denigrate Grayson - he is ahead of their pace, but ultimately they stayed 4 years. Can Grayson pull ahead of their 4-year accomplishments in 3 years? Time will tell.

NPOY and another Nat championship in 2017 should be enough.

[Olympic Fan]

Eddie Cameron's argument was that Dick Groat was an All-American in both baseball and basketball; Art Heyman, despite being NPOY, was not a two-sport All-American. Eventually, saner heads prevailed.

Just to be clear -- Groat won every national player of the year award that was available in 1952 -- the two biggies were the UPI and Look Magazine (he also won the Helms Award). The AP didn't award a NPOY in those days, but Groat was the leading vote-getter on the AP All-America team.

He was as noted a first-team baseball All-American, leading Duke to its first ever College World Series.

So he was pretty good.

Eddie Cameron thought jersey retirements should be a very rare thing. Vic Bubas was very frustrated that Cameron wouldn't okay a retirement ceremony for Art Heyman. There may have been more behind Cameron's decision -- Heyman was a very controversial figure (the first hated Duke player). But rather than say he blocked the retirement because of Heyman's behavior, Cameron simply said that he didn't favor retiring any more jerseys. That put him in a real bind a year later when Jeff Mullins -- a beloved player (by everybody, not just Duke fans) -- finished up. And, of course Jack Marin and Bob Verga never had a chance.

The longjam was broken when Cameron retired in 1972. Carl James, a Cameron protégé, never had the chance to make a retirement decision, but new AD Tom Butters was open to it in 1980, when Bill Foster wanted to honor Mike Gminski. At that point, Bubas began agitating to get his stars honored. Krzyzewski eventually listened to him and made the decisions to retire Heyman's jersey in 1990 and Mullins' in 1994. I wish he had gone a little farther and retired Verga's No. 11 -- although it did eventually get retired (for Bobby Hurley).

As for Grayson, I keep saying that he is on a path that could send his jersey to the rafters, but he's not there yet. If he's NPOY next season, then, yes, he's there. If he's a consensus first-team All-American AND leads Duke to another national title (maybe winning FF MVP). that MIGHT be enough ... assuming he graduates.

[rsvman]

.....

You might be referring to the paragraph that is also on that page, which starts out by saying that "there is no 'official' criteria to have a jersey retired at Duke. ....

If it really says that, perhaps Duke should require graduation (or at least a passing grade in freshman English) before allowing somebody to write in the media guide. Sheesh. That's UMd level stuff.

[throatybeard]

If we are doing this all over again, it must be time to reference the sticky thread again.

Yay, offseason!

I like how Olympic Fan started the thread with with handy pocket reference entry 12C.

Jersey retirement is one of these subjects that, when I was 20, I was so invested in it I might have done anything short of enlisting in a conventional ground war. I've made some pretty impassioned arguments for Bob Verga and Chris Moreland, IIRC. Probably Georgia Schweitzer.

At 39 my take is, gosh, how about we let Krzyzewski do what he wants to do. There's my criterion. It's great because you can revisit it after he retires.

I had a funny moment the other day during my frequent roster decisions about what gets relegated to Goodwill. I had early 2000s screen-not-authentic 23 jerseys in Duke and Michigan State, no doubt purchased in honor of Chris Carrawell and Kelvin Torbert, respectively. After both garments flunked the ever-wearing-it-again test, I considered whether they passed the archival nostalgia test, as would a disintegrating Tark's Shark's t-shirt from 1991. The MSU one flunked because it doesn't have his name and I do have Kelvin's autographed photo. Then I considered the Duke 23. And I'm like, the number is retired for Shelden Williams, not Carrawell. This doesn't have anybody's name on it. And by the time I did that much thinking I was like screw it.

Hopefully some kid's dad on the North Side sees it, buys it for $2, and he regales his son with stories about Chris Carrawell at Cardinal Ritter in the mid 1990s. But I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime, I have a very relaxed attitude about jersey retirement.

[throatybeard]

Bubas was great, but Mullins' jersey didn't get retired until K insisted...

-jk

Nor even Heyman's.

I don't know enough about jersey retirement at other places. How common is this Mullins-Heyman thing? I'll distill it into its essential form, and put aside the women's program for the moment.

Once, Duke retired a guy's jersey (10), but we basically didn't do it. Then we began to retire jerseys in the 1980s. These, (43, 24, 35) made Duke feel as though a few all-time greats during the not-retiring period should be revisited, and exactly two were selected, the latter one in the context of three more current ones (32, 11, 33). We have continued to treat other jersey requirements in a broadly similar fashion to the guys in the 1980s, just moving the ceremony a few months later now. There are now thirteen, and only these two (25, 44) were retired long after the player's careers.

Is that a common story around the country? You basically don't do it, and then you start. And you go back, loosely (?) applying the new standards to the old players, and you promote two to the exclusive club, and then appear to consider the matter closed after a time, as similar men, near those two in excellence (11v, 20, 34) are relegated to the Hall of Honorable Mentions.

State, circa opening the Thing On Wade Avenue (thx Duvall), retcon honored a bunch of people not named Thompson (their Dick Groat by analogy), I believe in a hung-but-not-retired fashion like 80% of what's on Carolina's ceiling. Pucillio, Shavlik, Burleson, guys like that. Some of these numbers are now illegal anyway.

[MarkD83]

So that this discussion has a place of its own rather than in the 2017 recruiting thread.

[wsb3]

It's that time again. Don't we do some form of this each summer?

The one missing that should be in the rafters above all others is Bob Verga. JJ was finally the one to beat his season average..barely & with a 3 point shot & a shot clock. Verga averages 30+ with those factors.

Verga averaged 22 for a career with a 49% FG Pct. 1966 If he does not get sick we play for the National Championship..

Same answer I give each year. See you next summer. ;)

[burnspbesq]

There are four numbers that should be retired posthaste:

40 (Matt Danowski)
22 (Ned Crotty)
31 (Jordan Wolf)
15 (Myles Jones)

[Tappan Zee Devil]

It's that time again. Don't we do some form of this each summer?

The one missing that should be in the rafters above all others is Bob Verga. JJ was finally the one to beat his season average..barely & with a 3 point shot & a shot clock. Verga averages 30+ with those factors.

Verga averaged 22 for a career with a 49% FG Pct. 1966 If he does not get sick we play for the National Championship..

Same answer I give each year. See you next summer. ;)

I was at Duke for Verga's senior year. I have never seen anyone who could shoot like him - JJ included.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

I was at Duke for Verga's senior year. I have never seen anyone who could shoot like him - JJ included.

Have you seen Steph Curry and Klay Thompson shoot?

[awhom111]

There are four numbers that should be retired posthaste:

40 (Matt Danowski)
22 (Ned Crotty)
31 (Jordan Wolf)
15 (Myles Jones)

I think this list is missing an 18 for Katie Chrest.

We have discussed this before so I know you agree.

I do wonder if there are any coaches who would be opposed to retiring a jersey.

[throatybeard]

Possibly the viking helmet and the mullet.

[Indoor66]

Have you seen Steph Curry and Klay Thompson shoot?

Have you seen someone average 22ppg with no 3 point and no shot clock? He averaged 18.8 in the ABA.

If you never saw him cock it back over his head and let it go from 25 feet after stopping from a dead run, you have no idea how good he was. He was Steph before Dell was a player.

[jimsumner]

Have you seen someone average 22ppg with no 3 point and no shot clock? He averaged 18.8 in the ABA.

If you never saw him cock it back over his head and let it go from 25 feet after stopping from a dead run, you have no idea how good he was. He was Steph before Dell was a player.

Verga was pretty darn good. I would put he and Redick at the top of the Duke list, just ahead of folks like Langdon and Seth Curry.

Until recently, I always argued that Reggie Miller was the best pure shooter I had ever seen.

But Steph has convinced me.

And if we're looking at the pre-shot clock, pre-3-point universe, then let me throw Rick Mount's name into the hat.

And if I were Mount, c. 1969, I could throw that hat into the basket from 30-feet away.

And whatever you do, don't get Olympic Fan and I started on Brian Magid. My goodness, he had range. Unfortunately, he could not perform any other basket-related task with any competence.

[jv001]

Verga was pretty darn good. I would put he and Redick at the top of the Duke list, just ahead of folks like Langdon and Seth Curry.Until recently, I always argued that Reggie Miller was the best pure shooter I had ever seen.

But Steph has convinced me.

And if we're looking at the pre-shot clock, pre-3-point universe, then let me throw Rick Mount's name into the hat.

And if I were Mount, c. 1969, I could throw that hat into the basket from 30-feet away.

And whatever you do, don't get Olympic Fan and I started on Brian Magid. My goodness, he had range. Unfortunately, he could not perform any other basket-related task with any competence.

A very good list and I would add Tate Armstrong to the list. I loved his shot. What could have been. GoDuke!

[jimsumner]

A very good list and I would add Tate Armstrong to the list. I loved his shot. What could have been. GoDuke!

Armstrong would also be on my short list. As would Chip Engelland.

The ACC experimented--with the NCAA's encouragement and approval--with some rules changes in 1983, a 30-second shot clock and a 17'9" 3-point shot.

Too close? A little. NC State's Terry Gannon was 53-90 (58.9 percent). Engelland was 41-74, Mark Price 73-166, Othell Wilson 29-54. Steve Rivers was 22-39. Yes, that Steve Rivers (he played for Maryland.)

The NCAA decided that 17'9" was a tad too short.

Imagine what Steph Curry would do with a 17'9" 3-point line. Boggles the imagination.

[throatybeard]

Imagine what Steph Curry would do with a 17'9" 3-point line. Boggles the imagination.

In an empty gym, sure.

With today's extremely long defenders packed into a smaller space? I doubt it. He'd shoot from where he shoots now.

I don't know who Bryan Magid is, Jim, but you I'd listen to about anyone.

[Reilly]

... I don't know who Bryan Magid is ...

Magid was on Lefty's early 80s Maryland teams. Here's a neat article about a trip he and Brey were on: http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/arts/theater/article/13040531/dunk-o-the-irish-remembering-a-maryland-all-star-teams

[jimsumner]

Brian Magid played two seasons at Maryland, 1976 and 1977, before transferring out.

He was about 6-2.

He was a mediocre--at best--defender, rebounder, passer and dribbler.

But he could shoot. Range? Anything inside half court.

This was before the 3-point shot and Maryland was pretty good in those days. He was competing for PT at guard with much better all-around players, John Lucas, Mo Howard, Brad Davis, Jo Jo Hunter, et. al.

Guys like Magid see the floor in today's game because they can knock down 3s. But without that added point, his overall game just couldn't get him on the floor at a top-tier ACC school.

So, much of his best work was done in pre-games. He would just hang around about 25-30 feet out and just nail one rainbow after another.

1977, Maryland at Duke. I was there. Pre-game. The Crazies were taunting Magid and he loved it. Finally, a Crazy went out on the floor and placed some folding money on the floor, 25 feet or so out.

Magid made the shot and picked up the money. More money, a little further out.

Same result.

This went on for hours.

Well, not really. It grows in the telling. In reality, probably no more than three or four shots.

But Magid didn't miss, kept his money and left the floor with a grin as wide as the Pacific.

Maryland ended up winning the game in overtime, after Duke gagged up a late lead in the most agonizing way possible.

But that's another story.

[NSDukeFan]

Brian Magid played two seasons at Maryland, 1976 and 1977, before transferring out.

He was about 6-2.

He was a mediocre--at best--defender, rebounder, passer and dribbler.

But he could shoot. Range? Anything inside half court.

This was before the 3-point shot and Maryland was pretty good in those days. He was competing for PT at guard with much better all-around players, John Lucas, Mo Howard, Brad Davis, Jo Jo Hunter, et. al.

Guys like Magid see the floor in today's game because they can knock down 3s. But without that added point, his overall game just couldn't get him on the floor at a top-tier ACC school.

So, much of his best work was done in pre-games. He would just hang around about 25-30 feet out and just nail one rainbow after another.

1977, Maryland at Duke. I was there. Pre-game. The Crazies were taunting Magid and he loved it. Finally, a Crazy went out on the floor and placed some folding money on the floor, 25 feet or so out.

Magid made the shot and picked up the money. More money, a little further out.

Same result.

This went on for hours.

Well, not really. It grows in the telling. In reality, probably no more than three or four shots.

But Magid didn't miss, kept his money and left the floor with a grin as wide as the Pacific.

Maryland ended up winning the game in overtime, after Duke gagged up a late lead in the most agonizing way possible.

But that's another story.

Do you have a link for that?

[jimsumner]

Do you have a link for that?

I tried to use just a smiley face but apparently that is a bit too concise for the board protocols.

:)

[Indoor66]

Do you have a link for that?

I'll give him support: I was at the game and it all happened.

[NSDukeFan]

I tried to use just a smiley face but apparently that is a bit too concise for the board protocols.

:)

Brevity would have approved.

[CDu]

I'll give him support: I was at the game and it all happened.

Oh sure. Do you have a link for your presence at the game? ;)

[Indoor66]

Oh sure. Do you have a link for your presence at the game? ;)

Darn it. I checked and I don't have my ticket stub. I was in Sec15, Row D.