Lessons Learned the Hard Way

[fuse]

Fair game within the bounds of moderation how far you want to take this.

I had an open position on my team and contacted two former colleagues about the opening.

I had to make a tough decision and offer one of them the job.

Lesson 1: tapping your network one at a time is best
Lesson 2: telling a former colleague you tapped that you offered the job to someone else is goes beyond "tough conversation".

Today I get a phone call from the person I offered the job to as this person decided to back out. Money not an issue, role not an issue. Reasons for this person legit in their mind, won't go into here.

Call the other former colleague back, asking if they might still be interested.
Leverage from possibly leaving has opened up doors and its now not the right time to leave.

Lesson 3: sometimes when you eff yourself, you really eff yourself.

I'm sure there are other lessons from this I am missing while I wallow.

Someone else please have a harder lesson learned so I can feel better ;-)

[OldPhiKap]

Fair game within the bounds of moderation how far you want to take this.

I had an open position on my team and contacted two former colleagues about the opening.

I had to make a tough decision and offer one of them the job.

Lesson 1: tapping your network one at a time is best
Lesson 2: telling a former colleague you tapped that you offered the job to someone else is goes beyond "tough conversation".

Today I get a phone call from the person I offered the job to as this person decided to back out. Money not an issue, role not an issue. Reasons for this person legit in their mind, won't go into here.

Call the other former colleague back, asking if they might still be interested.
Leverage from possibly leaving has opened up doors and its now not the right time to leave.

Lesson 3: sometimes when you eff yourself, you really eff yourself.

I'm sure there are other lessons from this I am missing while I wallow.

Someone else please have a harder lesson learned so I can feel better ;-)

Wow, tough story.

I learned recently that believing internet "insiders" is really really really dumb, and especially so when you know that you know better.

[moonpie23]

Fair game within the bounds of moderation how far you want to take this.

I had an open position on my team and contacted two former colleagues about the opening.

I had to make a tough decision and offer one of them the job.

Lesson 1: tapping your network one at a time is best
Lesson 2: telling a former colleague you tapped that you offered the job to someone else is goes beyond "tough conversation".

Today I get a phone call from the person I offered the job to as this person decided to back out. Money not an issue, role not an issue. Reasons for this person legit in their mind, won't go into here.

Call the other former colleague back, asking if they might still be interested.
Leverage from possibly leaving has opened up doors and its now not the right time to leave.

Lesson 3: sometimes when you eff yourself, you really eff yourself.

I'm sure there are other lessons from this I am missing while I wallow.

Someone else please have a harder lesson learned so I can feel better ;-)

without privy to hindsight, you took the course of action that you felt was correct. you obviously thought the 1st person you offered was "the one"....unfortunately, (for you) that person's actions have put you in a bit of a tough spot,(not your "fault") but you probably will follow the same decision making process in the future.

lesson learned? more like "lesson observed"...

jmho...

[Highlander]

One piece of advice I was given - never tell your second choice they didn't get the job until the first choice has formally accepted. That way you don't shut the door prematurely. They never need to know they were the second choice.

Of course if someone accepts and then backs out a few days later, not much you can do.

[fuse]

One piece of advice I was given - never tell your second choice they didn't get the job until the first choice has formally accepted. That way you don't shut the door prematurely. They never need to know they were the second choice.

Of course if someone accepts and then backs out a few days later, not much you can do.

100% agree.

In this particular case I would have had to string the second person along until the first person rescinded / didn't show up.

[duke74]

Fair game within the bounds of moderation how far you want to take this.

I had an open position on my team and contacted two former colleagues about the opening.

I had to make a tough decision and offer one of them the job.

Lesson 1: tapping your network one at a time is best
Lesson 2: telling a former colleague you tapped that you offered the job to someone else is goes beyond "tough conversation".

Today I get a phone call from the person I offered the job to as this person decided to back out. Money not an issue, role not an issue. Reasons for this person legit in their mind, won't go into here.

Call the other former colleague back, asking if they might still be interested.
Leverage from possibly leaving has opened up doors and its now not the right time to leave.

Lesson 3: sometimes when you eff yourself, you really eff yourself.

I'm sure there are other lessons from this I am missing while I wallow.

Someone else please have a harder lesson learned so I can feel better ;-)

Not that you need my approval or validation, but I think you acted appropriately and candidly. You decided which of the potential hires was the best for the job and made the offer. Could you have waited to tell others until after he/she had fully committed (was in house)? Sure, but the withdrawal was unexpected.

And...if candidate no. 2 was looking to leave, you were being fair to him/her by communicating the decision as you did, when you did. (You actually provided him/her with leverage at the current job.)

Someone will always be disappointed. Unfortunately that person was someone you knew before the process--and in fact you reached out because of that connection. But you acted in good faith and with honestly.

[wavedukefan70s]

Decisions are made .there is no use
Dwelling on whats done.it won't change the current situation.just try to salvage the current state of affairs.make the next decision that your gut tells you.
Realistically how many times has everyone overthought something.then went with the second or third option.then relized the first gut instinct was right.
Its like pitching on the mound you cant really throw the next if your still throwing the last one.
I made the mistake of of hiring my brother inlaw.life changed at work not for the better.he left.(sigh of relief)but i did it.i knew from the beginning it was wrong.it stressed my personal life aswell.from that point on i hire the gut feeling only.i have told many friends .im sorry about your luck but i have to do whats right to me.
Good luck .

[-jk]

Decisions are made .there is no use
Dwelling on whats done.it won't change the current situation.just try to salvage the current state of affairs.make the next decision that your gut tells you.
Realistically how many times has everyone overthought something.then went with the second or third option.then relized the first gut instinct was right.
Its like pitching on the mound you cant really throw the next if your still throwing the last one.
I made the mistake of of hiring my brother inlaw.life changed at work not for the better.he left.(sigh of relief)but i did it.i knew from the beginning it was wrong.it stressed my personal life aswell.from that point on i hire the gut feeling only.i have told many friends .im sorry about your luck but i have to do whats right to me.
Good luck .

Learning from the past is valuable.

I had similar experiences when I was hiring regularly - the first offer would take that back to their current employer for bargaining. I lost some.

Keeping a backup candidate is helpful...

-jk

[BD80]

... Someone else please have a harder lesson learned so I can feel better ;-)

Do marriages count?

[duke79]

Do marriages count?

LOL.......please....let's NOT go down THAT road !!

[fuse]

Do marriages count?

While my crying over spilled beer story was work related, my vision for the thread was life in general.

So much benefit in learning from others!

[throatybeard]

See, from the title, I thought this would be another thread about women's basketball. :p

[Bostondevil]

I am a member of a theater company that produces low budget bare bones Shakespeare in the Park shows in the summer.

The founder/artistic director of the company went off to study at LADA for a year (London Academy of Dramatic Arts). We agreed after last year's show, Pericles, that I would take on the producer's role this year - well, co-producer. Another company member had agreed that we would share the duties.

There are 4 company members who shoulder most of the work, myself, the artistic directer, and two others - not the company member who agreed to co-produce this year however. In January, we skyped with our London friend and in a burst of creative enthusiasm and optimism, decided to have a two show season, Macbeth and As You Like It. My co-producer promptly dropped out. The artistic director has handed over a lot of the responsibility and decision making power to me - but not all. She is also rather slow to get back to me because she is rather busy in London. We hired a director who will not take no for an answer from me when it comes to sticking to the budget. The director keeps trying to go over my head to the artistic director. The artistic director keeps telling me that she will only deal with emails from me. I do not have the power to fire the director. And to be perfectly honest, I don't want to. The show is looking like it will be stunning, the cast is amazing. I have repeatedly told my director that fundraising must happen for all of the vision to become reality. Money figures - every other show we have done has come it at around $2000, the budget my director has for Macbeth is $3500. Not huge sums of money, really, but still - we don't have it. We will get donations at the park (performances are free but we pass the hat) and we have a GoFundMe account going. But until we raise $3000, I'm not sleeping well. And that will still leave nothing for As You Like It. The director for AYLI is much more realistic, the kind I love, can we do it for nothing? Let's try! (We pay our actors a small stipend, so, no, but that budget is probably going to come in around $1500, at most. Hoping to pay for it from the donations. We get about 100 people per performance and we perform each play 10 times. We'll probably get about $1000 in the donation bucket for each show.)

I have produced before, I know it's a thankless job. But it has been particularly thankless this time around. And the director had the nerve to tell me that the director/producer relationship has been "unhelpful". Basically I'm working my butt off so someone else can be a diva. I will never produce again without the power to say, "You can't work with this budget? Ok, we'll find somebody else."

[fuse]

I am a member of a theater company that produces low budget bare bones Shakespeare in the Park shows in the summer.

The founder/artistic director of the company went off to study at LADA for a year (London Academy of Dramatic Arts). We agreed after last year's show, Pericles, that I would take on the producer's role this year - well, co-producer. Another company member had agreed that we would share the duties.

There are 4 company members who shoulder most of the work, myself, the artistic directer, and two others - not the company member who agreed to co-produce this year however. In January, we skyped with our London friend and in a burst of creative enthusiasm and optimism, decided to have a two show season, Macbeth and As You Like It. My co-producer promptly dropped out. The artistic director has handed over a lot of the responsibility and decision making power to me - but not all. She is also rather slow to get back to me because she is rather busy in London. We hired a director who will not take no for an answer from me when it comes to sticking to the budget. The director keeps trying to go over my head to the artistic director. The artistic director keeps telling me that she will only deal with emails from me. I do not have the power to fire the director. And to be perfectly honest, I don't want to. The show is looking like it will be stunning, the cast is amazing. I have repeatedly told my director that fundraising must happen for all of the vision to become reality. Money figures - every other show we have done has come it at around $2000, the budget my director has for Macbeth is $3500. Not huge sums of money, really, but still - we don't have it. We will get donations at the park (performances are free but we pass the hat) and we have a GoFundMe account going. But until we raise $3000, I'm not sleeping well. And that will still leave nothing for As You Like It. The director for AYLI is much more realistic, the kind I love, can we do it for nothing? Let's try! (We pay our actors a small stipend, so, no, but that budget is probably going to come in around $1500, at most. Hoping to pay for it from the donations. We get about 100 people per performance and we perform each play 10 times. We'll probably get about $1000 in the donation bucket for each show.)

I have produced before, I know it's a thankless job. But it has been particularly thankless this time around. And the director had the nerve to tell me that the director/producer relationship has been "unhelpful". Basically I'm working my butt off so someone else can be a diva. I will never produce again without the power to say, "You can't work with this budget? Ok, we'll find somebody else."

Tough spot, particularly because you are doing this presumably because you enjoy it.

You mentioned GoFundMe- I don't know if posting that link is allowed on DBR or not, and it would give this online community an opportunity to support your real life endeavours.

Wishing you the best of luck in the current situation, and even more so that this experience does not drive you away from the theatre. Drama aside (pun intended), sounds like a lot of fun!

[Reilly]

... And the director had the nerve to tell me that the director/producer relationship has been "unhelpful" ...

"Unhelpful." I like it. DBR should use that rather than the "I disapprove" button.

'I disapprove' is so subjective, but 'unhelpful' sounds like a consensus, objective assessment that really cannot be questioned.

[Bostondevil]

Tough spot, particularly because you are doing this presumably because you enjoy it.

You mentioned GoFundMe- I don't know if posting that link is allowed on DBR or not, and it would give this online community an opportunity to support your real life endeavours.

Wishing you the best of luck in the current situation, and even more so that this experience does not drive you away from the theatre. Drama aside (pun intended), sounds like a lot of fun!

Let's find out! https://www.gofundme.com/itsafiasco2016 (I did not come up with the company name.) Performances are free but I've been asking my local theater going friends to "buy a ticket" anyway in the form of a donation. If you live near enough to Cambridge to come see a show, I'm playing a couple of small parts in addition to producing, including Lady MacDuff, so, you'd get to see me stabbed by Macbeth's assassins on stage.

I'm primarily a playwright - this experience will not drive me away from theater although it may drive me away from producing. I do tell people that it's not a hobby. I am at the level where, if there were any money in theater, I would be paid for my work. I get produced locally all the time. Next show is up in June, the one after that in July, mostly short plays, but still, those two will be my 3rd and 4th Boston area productions so far this year.

I did tell the director (he's a relative newbie as a director) that directors always find the producer/director relationship unhelpful - get used to it. Then I told him that just because he perceives the relationship that way does not mean that I am actually being unhelpful. Then I told him that all of the permits have been obtained, I'd located the lights we used for the production in 2013, and that our access to bathrooms during rehearsals at the local tennis club had been approved. Oh, and I paid for the insurance that he forgot to include in his budget and he could look at that as a donation. He's been a bit nicer since then and I quit going to rehearsals unless we're rehearsing the scenes I'm in. We'll get through this without too much more friction unless we don't have enough money to pay the actors at the end.

[JasonEvans]

I have produced before, I know it's a thankless job. But it has been particularly thankless this time around. And the director had the nerve to tell me that the director/producer relationship has been "unhelpful". Basically I'm working my butt off so someone else can be a diva. I will never produce again without the power to say, "You can't work with this budget? Ok, we'll find somebody else."

I've got a question, who writes/signs the checks? Put another way, do you have the power to not cut a check?

I would handle it this way -- "Hello, Director. Your budget is $2000. $2000 is your budget. You cannot spend more than $2000. Do you understand me? Good, because the moment there is an expense that takes us past $2000, it will not get paid. Period, end of story." And then, the moment something comes in that is over budget, you refuse to pay it. Believe me, the moment that happens folks will figure out a way to still stage the play without the expensive extra items.

I am on the board of a community organization and we had a similar situation. A woman was planning an event for us and she had a detailed budget. She kept going over budget even though we had told her she could not. If there was $300 allocated for plate/silver/glass rentals, she would order something fancier and it would cost $450. We told her that when the budget ran out, she was done. Well, we were a few weeks from the start of the event and she was ordering the alcohol and we said, "nope, you are out of money." She insisted that we could not have the event without a bar. We agreed but said there was no more money left. She was apoplectic but we held firm. So, she quit. We celebrated for a few moments then we called a few of the rental outlets and downgraded what we were renting to get us back under budget so we could order the alcohol. The best part was, we contacted the printer of the program and he agreed to remove her name from the brochures for free because she had been so difficult to work with.

We got our event.
It was fabulous and fun.
It was on budget.
She got to throw a hussy fit and leave our organization.

-Jason "in small, volunteer operations, you either do it within budget or you write a check to cover the budget overruns yourself... there is no other way" Evans

[devildeac]

I've got a question, who writes/signs the checks? Put another way, do you have the power to not cut a check?

I would handle it this way -- "Hello, Director. Your budget is $2000. $2000 is your budget. You cannot spend more than $2000. Do you understand me? Good, because the moment there is an expense that takes us past $2000, it will not get paid. Period, end of story." And then, the moment something comes in that is over budget, you refuse to pay it. Believe me, the moment that happens folks will figure out a way to still stage the play without the expensive extra items.

I am on the board of a community organization and we had a similar situation. A woman was planning an event for us and she had a detailed budget. She kept going over budget even though we had told her she could not. If there was $300 allocated for plate/silver/glass rentals, she would order something fancier and it would cost $450. We told her that when the budget ran out, she was done. Well, we were a few weeks from the start of the event and she was ordering the alcohol and we said, "nope, you are out of money." She insisted that we could not have the event without a bar. We agreed but said there was no more money left. She was apoplectic but we held firm. So, she quit. We celebrated for a few moments then we called a few of the rental outlets and downgraded what we were renting to get us back under budget so we could order the alcohol. The best part was, we contacted the printer of the program and he agreed to remove her name from the brochures for free because she had been so difficult to work with.

We got our event.
It was fabulous and fun.
It was on budget.
She got to throw a hussy fit and leave our organization.

-Jason "in small, volunteer operations, you either do it within budget or you write a check to cover the budget overruns yourself... there is no other way" Evans

I'm guessing you don't have any daughters that'll have to come in under the "wedding budget" umbrella. :rolleyes:

[duke74]

-Jason "in small, volunteer operations, you either do it within budget or you write a check to cover the budget overruns yourself... there is no other way" Evans

Even in larger NFPs. Always an issue, especially in the cultural world. The other alternative is going to the board and asking for donations to cover the overruns, assuming you want/have to continue with the plans as contracted for.

I was president of a regional symphony orchestra here for 14 years after being on the board for 7 years prior to my election (including as treasurer). I am now the chairman of the board. It is always a struggle here in NYC (Queens, specifically for me) for many culturals. There are many worthy organizations asking for support, and thus competition for the wallet and attention. And, in tougher times (eg, after Sept 11th, or in 2007-9), public funding is cut back. Understandable of course when the choice is between feeding seniors and the poor and supporting arts organizations and arts in the schools.

And there is always creative tension between the board and the music director (like BD's issue in many ways). Often, his or her vision and staging conflicts with budgets, even for regular events like concerts. As you'd imagine, the biggest variable cost for an orchestra is the number of musicians. We are fully professional (and unionized - Local 802) and free lance. While the maestro might like his/her program to be performed with 65 musicians, the budget may only allow for 60 or even 55, even when the maestro contributed to the budget formation. We have had to cut back the number of musicians to break even (and thus change the parts). And all the while not sacrificing quality and musicianship.

Working with a NFP organization is rewarding, but it often comes with its own specific difficulties. I myself have loved it...and have learned as well (governance, getting volunteers motivated, etc.)

[duke79]

Even in larger NFPs. Always an issue, especially in the cultural world. The other alternative is going to the board and asking for donations to cover the overruns, assuming you want/have to continue with the plans as contracted for.

I was president of a regional symphony orchestra here for 14 years after being on the board for 7 years prior to my election (including as treasurer). I am now the chairman of the board. It is always a struggle here in NYC (Queens, specifically for me) for many culturals. There are many worthy organizations asking for support, and thus competition for the wallet and attention. And, in tougher times (eg, after Sept 11th, or in 2007-9), public funding is cut back. Understandable of course when the choice is between feeding seniors and the poor and supporting arts organizations and arts in the schools.

And there is always creative tension between the board and the music director (like BD's issue in many ways). Often, his or her vision and staging conflicts with budgets, even for regular events like concerts. As you'd imagine, the biggest variable cost for an orchestra is the number of musicians. We are fully professional (and unionized - Local 802) and free lance. While the maestro might like his/her program to be performed with 65 musicians, the budget may only allow for 60 or even 55, even when the maestro contributed to the budget formation. We have had to cut back the number of musicians to break even (and thus change the parts). And all the while not sacrificing quality and musicianship.

Working with a NFP organization is rewarding, but it often comes with its own specific difficulties. I myself have loved it...and have learned as well (governance, getting volunteers motivated, etc.)

Thanks for your post! I can echo much of what you say. I'm currently the volunteer Treasurer on the board of three different 501(c)(3) non-profits (one of which is in the process of essentially dissolving as the Board couldn't find a way to continue the operations in a financially viable way). It can be both rewarding and difficult and sometimes frustrating. Certainly, part of the difficulty is in having to constantly raise monies to keep the organization going. I live in a small rural county with a total population of about 130,000 and there are supposedly over 1000 non-profits. People joke that we have the highest ratio of non-profits to population in the US. It is a constant and never-ending struggle to raise enough money to pay the salaries, rent, telephone, programs, etc. to keep the organizations afloat. I have enjoyed most of my time on these Boards and have learned a lot too.

[Bostondevil]

I've got a question, who writes/signs the checks? Put another way, do you have the power to not cut a check?

I would handle it this way -- "Hello, Director. Your budget is $2000. $2000 is your budget. You cannot spend more than $2000. Do you understand me? Good, because the moment there is an expense that takes us past $2000, it will not get paid. Period, end of story." And then, the moment something comes in that is over budget, you refuse to pay it. Believe me, the moment that happens folks will figure out a way to still stage the play without the expensive extra items.

I am on the board of a community organization and we had a similar situation. A woman was planning an event for us and she had a detailed budget. She kept going over budget even though we had told her she could not. If there was $300 allocated for plate/silver/glass rentals, she would order something fancier and it would cost $450. We told her that when the budget ran out, she was done. Well, we were a few weeks from the start of the event and she was ordering the alcohol and we said, "nope, you are out of money." She insisted that we could not have the event without a bar. We agreed but said there was no more money left. She was apoplectic but we held firm. So, she quit. We celebrated for a few moments then we called a few of the rental outlets and downgraded what we were renting to get us back under budget so we could order the alcohol. The best part was, we contacted the printer of the program and he agreed to remove her name from the brochures for free because she had been so difficult to work with.

We got our event.
It was fabulous and fun.
It was on budget.
She got to throw a hussy fit and leave our organization.

-Jason "in small, volunteer operations, you either do it within budget or you write a check to cover the budget overruns yourself... there is no other way" Evans

I did put this in the "lessons learned" thread. I do know how to make people stick to a budget when I have the political capital to do so. Unfortunately not the case this time around. I have, however, found a way to extricate myself from the money process completely. The funding campaign is being run by our lead actor who has more experience with GoFundMe and was willing to take it on. He's going to be writing the checks - not me! I've decided to step back and not mention money again - they can see how much we have raised.