If Roy Williams Retired

[rocketeli]

Who would replace Roy Williams?

I’m not a fan of the idea that it’s always desirable to hire someone from the “coaching tree” or with a prior connection to the university or the previous head coach. But if UNC decided to go that route, who would they have available?

Looking at people with head coaching experience:

THE ALSO-RANs
Larry Cunningham, Eddie Fogler, Jerry Green, Doug Moe, John Kuester retired awhile ago
Jeff Lebo, Jason Capel, Buzz Peterson lots of experience, fairly young but mediocre performances
Wes Miller not getting it done at UNC Greensboro
Jerod Haase, Kevin Stallings just took other Division I head coach jobs, although they might be tempted…
Mark Turgeon seems like Maryland is working out OK for him
Tony Shaver, Blake Flickner, Ben Miller quite successful coaches you haven’t heard much about, but mostly at too low a level/are too old to really be of interest
Matt Doherty “we don’t know who this person is. Now go away and stop bothering us”

THE CONTENDERS
“Young” and promising division:
Scott Cherry age 45 High Point University His overall record is only 117-102 but his team has been first or tied for first in their conference and gone to either the NIT or CIT the last four years. He lacks experience at a big-time level, but if I were a savvy mid major athletic director looking for a basketball coach I’d be very intrigued by Scott Cherry.
King Rice 47, head coach at Monmouth 2011- overall record 79-85 but the last two years team was 18-15 and 28-8 and he was MAAC COY for 2016 Again lacks big time program experience as a coach, but he may be hearing from some bigger programs in the near future.

Faithful Warhorse division
Steve Robinson asst at Kansas 88-95 02-03 then followed Roy to UNC 2003- now 95-97 was HC at Tulsa where he went 46-18 , then was at FSU 97-02 and went 64-86 so back to Roy. The kind of guy who gets to be interim material for a year or two.

Living Legends Division
George Karl age 61, recently at liberty to take another coaching job. Has only coached in NBA, but delusional UNC fanbase would like the Dean Smith connection, and spin that as a plus, especially after Roy, who may not be sure what the NBA is, in recruiting top players. Reports of him being an a-hole will bother them not at all.
Larry Brown age 75 for the UNC fanbase, the only problem with Larry Brown is his age. He has currently been very successful at SMU with last three seasons of 27-10, 27-7, and 25-5. Unfortunately for SMU they were not able to participate in the post season due to violations, and I don’t think this is the first time Brown has been in that situation. UNC has certainly shown they don’t have a problem with breaking rules, and because they live in a baby-blue tinted bubble they will miss or discount how bad hiring someone like this with their upcoming day of reckoning with the NCAA would look. In fact they and Brown might both buy into the idea of him being a time-limited coach who would “take the hit” of coaching during any sanctions and then “due to age”, gracefully bow out.

You heard it here first—Larry Brown will be the next UNC coach.

[OldPhiKap]

I think they should give Rashad McCants a shot at it.

[94duke]

I think they should give Rashad McCants a shot at it.

He's too honest. :p;):cool:

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Who would replace Roy Williams?

I’m not a fan of the idea that it’s always desirable to hire someone from the “coaching tree” or with a prior connection to the university or the previous head coach. But if UNC decided to go that route, who would they have available?

Looking at people with head coaching experience:

THE ALSO-RANs
Larry Cunningham, Eddie Fogler, Jerry Green, Doug Moe, John Kuester retired awhile ago
Jeff Lebo, Jason Capel, Buzz Peterson lots of experience, fairly young but mediocre performances
Wes Miller not getting it done at UNC Greensboro
Jerod Haase, Kevin Stallings just took other Division I head coach jobs, although they might be tempted…
Mark Turgeon seems like Maryland is working out OK for him
Tony Shaver, Blake Flickner, Ben Miller quite successful coaches you haven’t heard much about, but mostly at too low a level/are too old to really be of interest
Matt Doherty “we don’t know who this person is. Now go away and stop bothering us”

THE CONTENDERS
“Young” and promising division:
Scott Cherry age 45 High Point University His overall record is only 117-102 but his team has been first or tied for first in their conference and gone to either the NIT or CIT the last four years. He lacks experience at a big-time level, but if I were a savvy mid major athletic director looking for a basketball coach I’d be very intrigued by Scott Cherry.
King Rice 47, head coach at Monmouth 2011- overall record 79-85 but the last two years team was 18-15 and 28-8 and he was MAAC COY for 2016 Again lacks big time program experience as a coach, but he may be hearing from some bigger programs in the near future.

Faithful Warhorse division
Steve Robinson asst at Kansas 88-95 02-03 then followed Roy to UNC 2003- now 95-97 was HC at Tulsa where he went 46-18 , then was at FSU 97-02 and went 64-86 so back to Roy. The kind of guy who gets to be interim material for a year or two.

Living Legends Division
George Karl age 61, recently at liberty to take another coaching job. Has only coached in NBA, but delusional UNC fanbase would like the Dean Smith connection, and spin that as a plus, especially after Roy, who may not be sure what the NBA is, in recruiting top players. Reports of him being an a-hole will bother them not at all.
Larry Brown age 75 for the UNC fanbase, the only problem with Larry Brown is his age. He has currently been very successful at SMU with last three seasons of 27-10, 27-7, and 25-5. Unfortunately for SMU they were not able to participate in the post season due to violations, and I don’t think this is the first time Brown has been in that situation. UNC has certainly shown they don’t have a problem with breaking rules, and because they live in a baby-blue tinted bubble they will miss or discount how bad hiring someone like this with their upcoming day of reckoning with the NCAA would look. In fact they and Brown might both buy into the idea of him being a time-limited coach who would “take the hit” of coaching during any sanctions and then “due to age”, gracefully bow out.

You heard it here first—Larry Brown will be the next UNC coach.

You didn't mention Hubert, bless is heart. Love, Ima

[OldPhiKap]

I think every time this comes up on IC, they are convinced that Brad Stevens will come. They also pine for Shaka Smart, although he may be off the table now.

I would hate to see them get Brad, Shaka, or Gregg Marshall.

If the NCAA hammer falls, it may shake them out of the ol' Dean coaching tree. Or not.

[Billy Dat]

UNC is a blue blood program. Obviously the NCAA penalties are a huge cloud. Assuming Roy leaves once all that has been hashed out and the new coach won't have to live under that cloud, and assuming that they don't restrict the search to the UNC family, then I think they can literally get anyone they want who wants to coach in college.

[PackMan97]

I don't think they'll have to worry about a coach for a few years. :mad:

After that, I don't think they'll be able to get anyone but an old washed up has been to take the job.

It will be a decade before they can start looking for someone who might get them back to a winning record.

-----------------------------------------------------

Ok, that is just my dream. I think they'll go with Larry Brown who will get them on probation/in trouble within two years and since they are a repeat offender they won't need a coach for a few years.

------------------------------------------------------

Dangit! I got some serious dream within a dream within a dream thing going on here.

To be honest, they'll throw enough money around they'll be able to get whomever they want.

[gus]

UNC is a blue blood program. Obviously the NCAA penalties are a huge cloud. Assuming Roy leaves once all that has been hashed out and the new coach won't have to live under that cloud, and assuming that they don't restrict the search to the UNC family, then I think they can literally get anyone they want who wants to coach in college.

Who knows? Matt Doherty was not their first, second, third nor probably fourth choice. I think they were only considering people from the UNC tree, which made it much harder, but it's not necessarily going to be the easiest job to fill even if they open it up.

[Jeffrey]

Who would replace Roy Williams?


Who would OPK verbally bash?

[weezie]

Who would replace Roy Williams?

The question is how could anyone replace that dear ol'huck. That blubbering, squat-dancing, costume wearing laff bag?

An outsider would be best over there, not that I would like it either way. Does the name Archie Miller ring a bell?

[Jeffrey]

I'll probably be alone with this prediction: Brad Daugherty.

Brad is much more prepared than most probably realize. He has a strong background in waste management.

[OldPhiKap]

Who would OPK verbally bash?

"Don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin' "

But, essentially anyone in baby blue is fair game in my book.

[Billy Dat]

Who knows? Matt Doherty was not their first, second, third nor probably fourth choice. I think they were only considering people from the UNC tree, which made it much harder, but it's not necessarily going to be the easiest job to fill even if they open it up.

I don't know. The list of top jobs in the country is pretty short - Duke, Kentucky, Kansas and UNC. The rare times one of them open, guys are interested. I think they'd be able to get Wichita State's Greg Marshall pretty easily. I think Shaka would leave Texas. I think Sean Miller would seriously think about leaving Arizona. I think Jay Wright would seriously think about leaving Nova.

[OldPhiKap]

I don't know. The list of top jobs in the country is pretty short - Duke, Kentucky, Kansas and UNC. The rare times one of them open, guys are interested. I think they'd be able to get Wichita State's Greg Marshall pretty easily. I think Shaka would leave Texas. I think Sean Miller would seriously think about leaving Arizona. I think Jay Wright would seriously think about leaving Nova.

Agree, but -- there may be a four or five year scholarship reduction and a few years of post-season bans. Hard to leave a good job for that, even with the chance for upside down the road.

[JasonEvans]

Agree, but -- there may be a four or five year scholarship reduction and a few years of post-season bans. Hard to leave a good job for that, even with the chance for upside down the road.

Exactly. The specter of the sanctions -- perhaps truly crippling ones that take a half decade to recover from -- will scare off most top-tier coaches. That's why I don't expect Roy to retire. He needs to stick it out until the sanctions are known and a new coach can plan for what he is getting into. I say Roy sticks around 2-3 more years.

-Jason "I do like the idea of Larry Brown to guide them through the sanctions though, if it comes to that" Evans

[Indoor66]

Exactly. The specter of the sanctions -- perhaps truly crippling ones that take a half decade to recover from -- will scare off most top-tier coaches. That's why I don't expect Roy to retire. He needs to stick it out until the sanctions are known and a new coach can plan for what he is getting into. I say Roy sticks around 2-3 more years.

-Jason "I do like the idea of Larry Brown to guide them through the sanctions though, if it comes to that" Evans

Why not? Who knows more about sanctions than Larry?:D:cool:

[olegreg]

I think it all depends on the sanctions. If meeks,jackson,hicks and berry leave which I'm sure there going to enter draft.And if they do stay in the draft, that would be devastating to next years team. They would be lucky to win 15 games. Don't know if roy could handle a season like that and if they don't get some 5 star talent in the 17 class I just don't see him making another run at a final 4 any time soon

[throatybeard]

Probably someone I don't care about yet but who turns out to be very annoying and project a lax attitude about academic work.

[Dukehky]

The delusion of the people in Chapel Hill is astounding. They actually think they could pull Brad Stevens. He is one of the best coaches in the NBA and has one of the best jobs in the league historically. His owner trusts him, and his roster is as bad as it's going to get, and they're still the freaking 4 seed.

There is a better chance of Bubba doing a seance and getting Dean's ghost to fly up Tammi Hansbrough's butt and possessing her to coach Carolina than there is of Brad Stevens coming back to college basketball by the time Roy retires.


That being said, I've seen him mentioned it on this board, that he could replace K. Yeah, that'd be awesome, but he's not leaving the Celts for a long, long time.

[Jeffrey]

-Jason "I do like the idea of Larry Brown to guide them through the sanctions though, if it comes to that" Evans

Strongly agree. Roy had to cleanup behind Larry, so it's only fair Larry now cleanup behind Roy. Brad is a nice guy. Let Larry and Roy cleanup their own waste.

[Jeffrey]

But, essentially anyone in baby blue is fair game in my book.

One of the many things I like about you; you're fair and balanced!

[jv001]

I'll probably be alone with this prediction: Brad Daugherty.

Brad is much more prepared than most probably realize. He has a strong background in waste management.

I like Brad Daugherty and I wouldn't wish that on him. He's too nice a guy to run that crooked program. GoDuke!

[ipatent]

If they want to stay with the UNC/KU family, Turgeon would be the best bet at this point.

If they were smart, they would consider options outside the family.

[-jk]

I don't think they'll have to worry about a coach for a few years. :mad:

After that, I don't think they'll be able to get anyone but an old washed up has been to take the job.

It will be a decade before they can start looking for someone who might get them back to a winning record.

-----------------------------------------------------

Ok, that is just my dream. I think they'll go with Larry Brown who will get them on probation/in trouble within two years and since they are a repeat offender they won't need a coach for a few years.

------------------------------------------------------

Dangit! I got some serious dream within a dream within a dream thing going on here.

To be honest, they'll throw enough money around they'll be able to get whomever they want.

Dream on!

-jk

[sagegrouse]

If they want to stay with the UNC/KU family, Turgeon would be the best bet at this point.

If they were smart, they would consider options outside the family.

UNC should definitely go outside the family. Consider the last three hires "inside the family:"

Coach Guthridge, who had great success on the court but not in recruiting was often dismissed as "Grandpaw."

Doherty was an unmitigated disaster, except for a few players he recruited.

Roy Williams, a success by most any measure except the self-pity index, is one-of-a-kind. He had coached for 15 years at a major basketball power and made four Final Fours. There isn't another one out there.

Turgeon would be an interesting choice, but he played at Kansas and didn't really fall out of the UNC tree. If I were UNC, I would do what Duke often describes in its various recruiting efforts outside of sports as a "nationwide search."

[OldPhiKap]

One of the many things I like about you; you're fair and balanced!

I retort, you deride.

[gurufrisbee]

I know it's crazy, but if the program was under the black cloud of sanctions/punishment and looked to be in it's worst hour and was just trying to stay relevant and get some positive press....what about Jordan? He has no coaching experience and probably wouldn't be good at it, but there would be recruits who come just to be around him and the program would love the exposure.

[ohioguy2]

I really think they should not replace him with anyone, tell the players they do not have to show up for practice or games and that the banner that is hung in their honor will recognize them as champions.

[Indoor66]

I know it's crazy, but if the program was under the black cloud of sanctions/punishment and looked to be in it's worst hour and was just trying to stay relevant and get some positive press...what about Jordan? He has no coaching experience and probably wouldn't be good at it, but there would be recruits who come just to be around him and the program would love the exposure.

Jordan retired in 2003. A High School Senior TODAY, would have been 4 or 5 years old. They never saw him play, only a jump shot at the start of an NBA game. Do you think he is really relevant today?

[53n206]

It's hard to think about how a young coach takes a team with problems, or mediocre talent, and develops them into champions. We have seen it here at Duke, a remarkable achievement by a remarkable coach. Perhaps there are other young coaches who can do the same thing at Carolina if, and when,and after any sanctions are instituted. It's hard to see how any of the Carolina young coaches can do this. It's hard also to imagine that any of the successful college coaches would want to take this burden upon themselves. But it is Carolina, and Carolina has been a remarkable force in college basketball. Nothing would surprise me. And remember, money talks.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Jordan retired in 2003. A High School Senior TODAY, would have been 4 or 5 years old. They never saw him play, only a jump shot at the start of an NBA game. Do you think he is really relevant today?

If he is as successful at coaching as he is at running NBA franchises, I am all in.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

If he is as successful at coaching as he is at running NBA franchises, I am all in.

It seems clear to me that whenever coach Williams decides to retire, he is grooming Hubert Davis for the opportunity to take over.

If I'm wrong, I think it's very unlikely that the next coach would come from someone totally outside the "family"...there will be a connection to the UNC tree or possibly from Roy's time at Kansas, but it will be someone that understands UNC/Kansas style of basketball.

[OldPhiKap]

It seems clear to me that whenever coach Williams decides to retire, he is grooming Hubert Davis for the opportunity to take over.

If I'm wrong, I think it's very unlikely that the next coach would come from someone totally outside the "family"...there will be a connection to the UNC tree or possibly from Roy's time at Kansas, but it will be someone that understands UNC/Kansas style of basketball.

Interesting, thanks.

If there are real sanctions (not asking you to agree with that premise, but hypothetically) -- do you think that may call for a call to start fresh?

[jipops]

I don't think it matters all that much. They'll need someone who can handle the media spotlight and demanding alumni. Something Doherty struggled with. But the tarheel brand is huge. Kids all over the country still grow up unc fans. Recruiting talent is always going to be there. The actual coaching part is not as difficult, it's handling the pressure that comes with it.

[Newton_14]

Easy call. They are going to hire Wheat. Heck he knows their post offense inside and out and by his own admission is never wrong in evaluating their team or players. He will be a shoe in! :cool:

[BluDvlsN1]

The first game at Cameron indoor after Roy came back from Kansas,
the Crazies had the entrance lined with gold paper from the nc team bus, they also
had by Roy’s chair on the floor a pair Ruby Red slippers.

You get the idea.

As coaches go over there at nc, he’s likable enough at least on the surface.

Since then,He has done his part in proving that a prophetic exercise by the Crazies.

He’s the gift that has kept on giving, occasionally even in the most unlikely of circumstances.


http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2016/3/4/11159950/record-between-duke-and-north-carolina-since-roy-williams-arrival-for

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Easy call. They are going to hire Wheat. Heck he knows their post offense inside and out and by his own admission is never wrong in evaluating their team or players. He will be a shoe in! :cool:

I await their call....my agent is on standby.

[gep]

It seems clear to me that whenever coach Williams decides to retire, he is grooming Hubert Davis for the opportunity to take over.

If I'm wrong, I think it's very unlikely that the next coach would come from someone totally outside the "family"...there will be a connection to the UNC tree or possibly from Roy's time at Kansas, but it will be someone that understands UNC/Kansas style of basketball.


I don't think it matters all that much. They'll need someone who can handle the media spotlight and demanding alumni. Something Doherty struggled with. But the tarheel brand is huge. Kids all over the country still grow up unc fans. Recruiting talent is always going to be there. The actual coaching part is not as difficult, it's handling the pressure that comes with it.

Yes... Hubert Davis. He, of all people, should be able to "handle the media spotlight". I don't know about demanding alumni, though. But can he coach... :confused:

[madscavenger]

.....it's only fair Larry now cleanup behind Roy......

....and definitely necessary, because


http://i64.tinypic.com/iemdyh.jpg

Roy lost his stool

[devildeac]

I await their call...my agent is on standby.

Sounds fishy to me...

[OldPhiKap]

Sounds fishy to me...

'Tonight's game is brought to you by World Wide Sportsman, the place for tackle in Islamorada. And, the Hungry Tarpon -- your place for great food and scenic beauty."


Question -- for purposes of this thread, is there a difference between "retire" and "resign in disgrace"? One I would like to see soon, one I would not like to see for a while.

[lotusland]

Greg Marshall would be hell on the rest of the league and he could compete with reduced talent during potential sanctions. He would clash big time with UNC establishment and Dean's worshipers and destroy the genteel wine and cheese environment over there. They might be humbled enough to give him the control he would insist on but I hope not. Jay Wright seems lot have a much better temperament and that guy can coach too. Here's hoping they stay within the family.

[Indoor66]

Greg Marshall would be hell on the rest of the league and he could compete with reduced talent during potential sanctions. He would clash big time with UNC establishment and Dean's worshipers and destroy the genteel wine and cheese environment over there. They might be humbled enough to give him the control he would insist on but I hope not. Jay Wright seems lot have a much better temperament and that guy can coach too. Here's hoping they stay within the family.

To stay in the "family" raises the common spectre and result of getting diminished genes - like the royals of Europe. Additionally, the historic cult of the personality requires conformance to prior methods and procedures - which are happily adopted - because that is how the family does things. Those methods and procedures are not always successful in new hands.

If you go outside the family, you get the resulting cry that "that is not how Dean would have done it" if everything doesn't go O.K. The cult would rise up and destroy.

The only safe course is to select a new coach that instantly brings in the #1 recruiting class and wins the next national championship. Then the crappy sheep would have a new personality cult. Anything else will be fiasco and failure.

[OldPhiKap]

To stay in the "family" raises the common spectre and result of getting diminished genes - like the royals of Europe. Additionally, the historic cult of the personality requires conformance to prior methods and procedures - which are happily adopted - because that is how the family does things. Those methods and procedures are not always successful in new hands.

If you go outside the family, you get the resulting cry that "that is not how Dean would have done it" if everything doesn't go O.K. The cult would rise up and destroy.

The only safe course is to select a new coach that instantly brings in the #1 recruiting class and wins the next national championship. Then the crappy sheep would have a new personality cult. Anything else will be fiasco and failure.

When Doh! came in, my understanding is that he tried to shake up the office staff and that cheesed off Ol' Deano -- who responded in his typical passive-aggressive way for some time. A family selection, as you say, can be constraining.

And, where the family has been at the helm through four coaching regimes while the institution systematically cheated for around two decades, well -- perhaps it is time to drain the gene pool and throw in a few pounds of shock.

[Neals384]

I know it's crazy, but if the program was under the black cloud of sanctions/punishment and looked to be in it's worst hour and was just trying to stay relevant and get some positive press...what about Jordan? He has no coaching experience and probably wouldn't be good at it, but there would be recruits who come just to be around him and the program would love the exposure.

Dadgummit, frisbee, I was gonna say Jordan. Now you've ruined my joke.

[Henderson]

Islamorada.

Oooh. Cheeca Lodge. That's no joke.

[MChambers]

In a shock, UNC will pick a former Duke player, Andre Buckner.

[Henderson]

In a shock, UNC will pick a former Duke player, Andre Buckner.

I put my bet on Austin Rivers.

It's kind of a long shot. But at 100 trillion to one, how could you pass up that action?

[oldnavy]

Greg Marshall would be hell on the rest of the league and he could compete with reduced talent during potential sanctions. He would clash big time with UNC establishment and Dean's worshipers and destroy the genteel wine and cheese environment over there. They might be humbled enough to give him the control he would insist on but I hope not. Jay Wright seems lot have a much better temperament and that guy can coach too. Here's hoping they stay within the family.

I think Jay is probably very happy where he is.

I am not as sure as some on this board who feel UNC can get anyone they want. Seems like when Gut retired they struck out on a few.

Is UNC such a great job? Maybe it is.

They have tradition and all that, but they also seem so inbreed and aloof that I could not imagine an outsider feeling very comfortable there. The spirit of Dean, and now Roy would be very difficult to shake IMO.

Plus, they are not the most accepting of folks over there either. Roy as much of a home boy that he is, finds it difficult to please the ingrates... remember the fallout just this year when he blew the Duke game??? Not much patience for losing on the hill... an outsider who had a difficult year or two would feel the heat immediately.

[Lar77]

I think Jay is probably very happy where he is.

I am not as sure as some on this board who feel UNC can get anyone they want. Seems like when Gut retired they struck out on a few.

Is UNC such a great job? Maybe it is.

They have tradition and all that, but they also seem so inbreed and aloof that I could not imagine an outsider feeling very comfortable there. The spirit of Dean, and now Roy would be very difficult to shake IMO.

Plus, they are not the most accepting of folks over there either. Roy as much of a home boy that he is, finds it difficult to please the ingrates... remember the fallout just this year when he blew the Duke game??? Not much patience for losing on the hill... an outsider who had a difficult year or two would feel the heat immediately.

Based on the past (which is 15 years ago), they are very firm on staying within the tree. Dean retired so Gut would get the job (which he could coach well, but couldn't recruit). Doh could recruit, but he wasn't much as a coach (he was also not the first choice). He also got criticized for moving Dean's office (sacrilege) and not giving Phil Ford a spot in the program. Roy has been successful even with all his flaws, but the whine and cheesers still make life hard for him.

My prediction (assuming the NCAA ever acts) is they stay "in the family". Steve Robinson might be a casualty of any sanctions, but Hubert Smith would not. It's how Deano got his start.

The crowd

[madscavenger]

In a shock, UNC will pick a former Duke player, Andre Buckner.

Rams, Bucks...................................who ewe kidding?

[Edouble]

Based on the past (which is 15 years ago), they are very firm on staying within the tree. Dean retired so Gut would get the job (which he could coach well, but couldn't recruit). Doh could recruit, but he wasn't much as a coach (he was also not the first choice). He also got criticized for moving Dean's office (sacrilege) and not giving Phil Ford a spot in the program. Roy has been successful even with all his flaws, but the whine and cheesers still make life hard for him.

My prediction (assuming the NCAA ever acts) is they stay "in the family". Steve Robinson might be a casualty of any sanctions, but Hubert Smith would not. It's how Deano got his start.

The crowd

I've never been too sure of this. The '98 team was basically the same team as the year before, fresh off of a Final Four. They were pretty much on autopilot but even then encountered a few snafus: Shammond crying in the tunnel, because even coming off of a monster game it wasn't his turn to start, the team's over-the-top posturing, the Maktar Ndiaye press conference after the Utah game. That team was one of the most talented I've seen at Carolina and probably should have won the whole thing. They seemed to stay closer to their floor than to their ceiling.

The '99 team was a sad group that bowed out in the first round of the NCAAs. At this point Ed Cota, who looked like a future first round pick his first two seasons, began to get a noticeable gut (no pun intended), and his development began to stymie. Lots of excuses from a guy that should have been a team leader: "If Vince and Antawn were here, no way we lose that game." I put that on coaching. The team leaders reflect the coach who has molded them.

The next year, Carolina made a miracle run to the Final Four, which I guess I will admit to downplaying... it was completely unexpected and was the bookend that gives Gut a pass on his coaching ability.

Overall, there were alot of dips, not just recruiting-wise, when Gut was at the helm.

[Lar77]

I've never been too sure of this. The '98 team was basically the same team as the year before, fresh off of a Final Four. They were pretty much on autopilot but even then encountered a few snafus: Shammond crying in the tunnel, because even coming off of a monster game it wasn't his turn to start, the team's over-the-top posturing, the Maktar Ndiaye press conference after the Utah game. That team was one of the most talented I've seen at Carolina and probably should have won the whole thing. They seemed to stay closer to their floor than to their ceiling.

The '99 team was a sad group that bowed out in the first round of the NCAAs. At this point Ed Cota, who looked like a future first round pick his first two seasons, began to get a noticeable gut (no pun intended), and his development began to stymie. Lots of excuses from a guy that should have been a team leader: "If Vince and Antawn were here, no way we lose that game." I put that on coaching. The team leaders reflect the coach who has molded them.

The next year, Carolina made a miracle run to the Final Four, which I guess I will admit to downplaying... it was completely unexpected and was the bookend that gives Gut a pass on his coaching ability.

Overall, there were alot of dips, not just recruiting-wise, when Gut was at the helm.

Fair comment.

I still hold that history has shown them to stay "in the family" and that Hubert is the guy who will lead them through the End of Days.

Whoever it is, I pity them. Even the great Dean was hung in effigy.

[madscavenger]

............The only safe course is to select a new coach that instantly brings in the #1 recruiting class and wins the next national championship................

So what you're saying is Coach Cal. Well, he does have some familiarity with vacations. And unlike Roy :rolleyes: he knows what (that, if) his players are reading. AND, the Rams Club can afford even his demands.

[Lar77]

So what you're saying is Coach Cal. Well, he does have some familiarity with vacations. And unlike Roy :rolleyes: he knows what (that, if) his players are reading. AND, the Rams Club can afford even his demands.

On the other hand, if they didn't win everything immediately, he would be a "one and done"

[throatybeard]

Why are we doing this? Shouldn't we be starting sixteen threads about succession plans in Our House? Men's college basketball season has been over for more than 240 hours now!

[oldnavy]

Based on the past (which is 15 years ago), they are very firm on staying within the tree. Dean retired so Gut would get the job (which he could coach well, but couldn't recruit). Doh could recruit, but he wasn't much as a coach (he was also not the first choice). He also got criticized for moving Dean's office (sacrilege) and not giving Phil Ford a spot in the program. Roy has been successful even with all his flaws, but the whine and cheesers still make life hard for him.

My prediction (assuming the NCAA ever acts) is they stay "in the family". Steve Robinson might be a casualty of any sanctions, but Hubert Smith would not. It's how Deano got his start.

The crowd

Did you mean Hubert Davis?

Would UNC go with an unknown HC? Unless something changes over the next few years and Hubert get moved up the pecking order, he will most likely have very very limited experience with "running" the program.

Roy, when he went to KU had been Dean's right hand man for many years. He probably had run the programs day to day operations for a while. I would be very surprised if Hubert has had much responsibility in that area. Right now, Robinson and McGrath both have more experience on Roy's staff... it could happen, but I just don't see the advantage of hiring Davis.

My bet would be Jerrod Haase provided he does a decent job at Stanford.

[Troublemaker]

I think Jay is probably very happy where he is.

Agreed. Wright should be looked at like Izzo at Michigan St where the connection between coach and school is deeper than just the years spent as head coach there. Wright was born about 45 minutes from Villanova's campus, grew up wanting to play for Nova (but wasn't good enough), married a Villanova grad, became an assistant at Nova under Rollie, then a head coach at Hofstra where he performed great before finally landing his dream job at Nova. I don't think another college program can pry him away; it's possible the NBA could.

As for Roy, if major sanctions hit, I would expect him to stick around to coach through those difficult years similar to how Boeheim is doing it at Syracuse before handing over a clean slate to Mike Hopkins. Roy would want to do the same for Hubert Davis, as others have mentioned.

[Lar77]

Did you mean Hubert Davis?

Would UNC go with an unknown HC? Unless something changes over the next few years and Hubert get moved up the pecking order, he will most likely have very very limited experience with "running" the program.

Roy, when he went to KU had been Dean's right hand man for many years. He probably had run the programs day to day operations for a while. I would be very surprised if Hubert has had much responsibility in that area. Right now, Robinson and McGrath both have more experience on Roy's staff... it could happen, but I just don't see the advantage of hiring Davis.

My bet would be Jerrod Haase provided he does a decent job at Stanford.

Yes, sorry, brain not working. Hubert Davis.

Again, Davis is there and unlikely to be a casualty of NCAA action. I can't see someone coming in with sanctions in place, although the whiners will give someone a break for a couple of years since they were "so brave to come in (or stay) to get us back on our feet after such an injustice".

[oldnavy]

Yes, sorry, brain not working. Hubert Davis.

Again, Davis is there and unlikely to be a casualty of NCAA action. I can't see someone coming in with sanctions in place, although the whiners will give someone a break for a couple of years since they were "so brave to come in (or stay) to get us back on our feet after such an injustice".

You have more faith in that hoard than I do....

[devildeac]

Rams, Bucks.........who ewe kidding?

And I suppose you posted that without an iota of sheepishness.

You should be tarred AND heeled for that. :rolleyes:

[Jeffrey]

When Doh! came in, my understanding is that he tried to shake up the office staff and that cheesed off Ol' Deano -- who responded in his typical passive-aggressive way for some time.

A more foolish move would have been to take down some pictures of Dean.

[Jeffrey]

Why are we doing this? Shouldn't we be starting sixteen threads about succession plans in Our House?

We are doing this to make it easy to throw all the "in the family" comments back in our face.

[Henderson]

A more foolish move would have been to take down some pictures of Dean.

NCAA: "No stupid bread banners, no banners for the last two cuz you cheated, and you gotta remove the Dean photos. Hey we see you guys putting up the Roy photos. No. Don't even try it. No Deputy Dog honorifics either. We see right through that. Clean means you scrub off ALL the dirt."

[JNort]

Carolina might actually get a decent ball coach.

[Olympic Fan]

Carolina might actually get a decent ball coach.

THIS ...

Not that I think Roy is a bad coach. He's not. He has his flaws, but his biggest problem in recent years is the perception that he doesn't get guys to the NBA.

That could change with a replacement.

Now, if UNC has to replace Roy with sanctions looming or in place, they could have a problem (or at best hire a placeholder)

But if they make a post-scandal hire, they can and will get somebody better than Roy.

PS I'd be willing to bet that the next UNC coach is NOT from the family. Correction -- if they have to hire in the middle of the scandal, it might be a UNC guy ... but if they can wait until it's past, then they go outside.

[oldnavy]

THIS ...

Not that I think Roy is a bad coach. He's not. He has his flaws, but his biggest problem in recent years is the perception that he doesn't get guys to the NBA.

That could change with a replacement.

Now, if UNC has to replace Roy with sanctions looming or in place, they could have a problem (or at best hire a placeholder)

But if they make a post-scandal hire, they can and will get somebody better than Roy.

PS I'd be willing to bet that the next UNC coach is NOT from the family. Correction -- if they have to hire in the middle of the scandal, it might be a UNC guy ... but if they can wait until it's past, then they go outside.

I commented above that I think someone from outside the fraternity will find it hard going...

UNC has for as long as I have been alive acted as if they were God's gift to .... well EVERYTHING. How will someone who is unwashed be accepted?

My guess is if they go outside the clan, it will have to be a HUGE name... otherwise the poor fellow will always be looked down on IMO.

What do you think about that?

[Tripping William]

I commented above that I think someone from outside the fraternity will find it hard going...

UNC has for as long as I have been alive acted as if they were God's gift to ... well EVERYTHING. How will someone who is unwashed be accepted?

My guess is if they go outside the clan, it will have to be a HUGE name... otherwise the poor fellow will always be looked down on IMO.

What do you think about that?

Imagine not just "unwashed," but fully slathered in the bull dung that they view as "Moo U." That was my reaction when I saw weezie's otherwise sensible suggestion of Archie Miller.

[wsb3]

...I would not have the same desire to watch the press conference after a UNC loss. Huck is dadgum great entertainment.

[oldnavy]

...I would not have the same desire to watch the press conference after a UNC loss. Huck is dadgum great entertainment.

I don't know.... Doh crying after his first ACC win was pretty entertaining!!

I knew right then he wasn't going to make it!

[Indoor66]

I vote for Hendo to be the new coach after ole' roy retires. He knows how to make them bleed and they will need it after the hammer falls. :p:o:cool:

[Henderson]

I vote for Hendo to be the new coach after ole' roy retires. He knows how to make them bleed and they will need it after the hammer falls. :p:o:cool:

If they let me wear my Duke gear full time and install my special "sit-down-and-spin-around" defense, I'll look at an offer sheet.

[oldnavy]

If they let me wear my Duke gear full time and install my special "sit-down-and-spin-around" defense, I'll look at an offer sheet.

I used to wear my classic Duke grey sweatshirt to class at UNC all the time... hee, hee, hee!!:cool:

And YES, before anybody says it, I did have to attend class... they didn't give us grades in the School of Pharmacy!

[Indoor66]

I used to wear my classic Duke grey sweatshirt to class at UNC all the time... hee, hee, hee!!:cool:

And YES, before anybody says it, I did have to attend class... they didn't give us grades in the School of Pharmacy!

We all know that they ONLY GIVE grades at unCheat! :p:D:cool:

[FerryFor50]

Bubba doing a seance and getting Dean's ghost to fly up Tammi Hansbrough's butt and possessing her to coach Carolina


I'm sorry. Close the thread. This is the correct answer.

[Henderson]

I'm sorry. Close the thread. This is the correct answer.

Please don't close it yet. I have one last question.

Is Ol' Roy more like:

Deputy Dog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm-00hTA3nk

OR

Huckleberry Hound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4OBKXt741U&ebc=ANyPxKofUzDAQVTrm-Q58gRgXPT-CaRYncZDYke3tbq4O6yy_0jomdxBi5FqOkiFnGYMG5f-VmL0Tt4IEDKHQMzpm8O94z89Ug

I say Deputy Dog is the better comedic actor, but HH is closer to the real soul of the subject matter and has better metaphors.

Watch both links to the end, then decide which is a better Ol' Roy.

[throatybeard]

Please don't close it yet. I have one last question.

Is Ol' Roy more like:

Deputy Dog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm-00hTA3nk

OR

Huckleberry Hound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4OBKXt741U&ebc=ANyPxKofUzDAQVTrm-Q58gRgXPT-CaRYncZDYke3tbq4O6yy_0jomdxBi5FqOkiFnGYMG5f-VmL0Tt4IEDKHQMzpm8O94z89Ug

I say Deputy Dog is the better comedic actor, but HH is closer to the real soul of the subject matter and has better metaphors.

Watch both links to the end, then decide which is a better Ol' Roy.

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/13043523_10101399351071044_1879330021943029842_n.j pg?oh=16bae0e449e72eeee81c2536d8040cbc&oe=5776CA05

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Not that I think Roy is a bad coach. He's not. He has his flaws, but his biggest problem in recent years is the perception that he doesn't get guys to the NBA.


That perception doesn't hold water and is really wishful thinking by fans that want to believe it. NBA GM's will tell anyone that listens that UNC players are among the most prepared players around when they enter the league.

In the current NBA play offs, which school has the most players? (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25554450/infographic-colleges-that-have-the-most-players-in-the-2016-nba-playoffs) That's right, it's UNC...and all but Vince Carter are Roy's guys.

[norduck]

That perception doesn't hold water and is really wishful thinking by fans that want to believe it. NBA GM's will tell anyone that listens that UNC players are among the most prepared players around when they enter the league.

In the current NBA play offs, which school has the most players? (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25554450/infographic-colleges-that-have-the-most-players-in-the-2016-nba-playoffs) That's right, it's UNC...and all but Vince Carter are Roy's guys.


Impressive! PJ 2014

[OldPhiKap]

That perception doesn't hold water and is really wishful thinking by fans that want to believe it. NBA GM's will tell anyone that listens that UNC players are among the most prepared players around when they enter the league.

In the current NBA play offs, which school has the most players? (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25554450/infographic-colleges-that-have-the-most-players-in-the-2016-nba-playoffs) That's right, it's UNC...and all but Vince Carter are Roy's guys.

Unfair, but it is what it is. Per IC, K couldn't develop big men despite evidence to the contrary.

Of course, for Roy and K and all others, there is a difference between developing players and having studs go through your program. Lots of subjectivity there.

[Pghdukie]

I think Ol Huck is a cross between Barney Fife, and Al Bundy !

[CameronBlue]

I think Ol Huck is a cross between Barney Fife, and Al Bundy !

Hmmm I guess that makes Wanda a cross between Peg Bundy and Thelma Lou. I'm really not seeing that. Peg is just the right amount of slutty for a middle-age man's fantasy. Yeah she knows I still got it.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

That perception doesn't hold water and is really wishful thinking by fans that want to believe it. NBA GM's will tell anyone that listens that UNC players are among the most prepared players around when they enter the league.

In the current NBA play offs, which school has the most players? (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25554450/infographic-colleges-that-have-the-most-players-in-the-2016-nba-playoffs) That's right, it's UNC...and all but Vince Carter are Roy's guys.
Sure, but the vast majority are along for the ride.

-- UNC's 13 playoff players put up a total of 86.6 PPG combined this season (7.4 PPG weighted average).
-- 7 of UNC's playoff players are averaging under 20 MPG.

-- Duke's 9 playoff players put up a total of 88.3 PPG combined this season (9.9 PPG weighted average).
-- Just 2 of Duke's playoff players are averaging under 20 MPG.

-- UNC's shining example of four-year player (though not reading skills) development, Tyler Hanstravel, averaged 2.4 PPG this year and has averaged 6.7 PPG for his career.

By the way, just for the heck of it, I looked at all active NBA players from each university/"school"...

-- UNC's 16 active players in the league put up a combined total of 105.0 PPG (weighted average of 7.2 PPG) this season.
-- Duke's 19 active players in the league put up a combined total of 174.2 PPG (weighted average of 9.8 PPG) this season.

-- UNC had just two guys average in double figures this season. (Barnes 11.7, Williams 11.7)
-- Duke had six guys average in double figures this season. (Irving 19.6, Okafor 17.5, Redick 16.3, Hood 14.5, Parker 14.1, Deng 12.3)

To try to be fair, Duke has its fair share of guys averaging low single digits. But I am failing to see where UNC's guys are "among the most prepared players around..."

[lotusland]

I'm not sure if Roy is failing to develop young players but he seems reluctant to hand freshmen the keys and ride them for 30+ MPG. His longer rotations and frequent substitutions make it more difficult for individual players to get noticed.

K does the opposite and sticks to 7 man rotation almost without regard to talent. Grayson Allen barely played before Sheed got booted last year but was All ACC and third team AA this year. So Duke is better at "developing" their top 7 guys but Roy might be better for the 8th or 9th guys in the rotation.

[Henderson]

The title of this thread currently is "If Roy Williams Retired."

It should be, "Is Roy Williams Retired?"

Consider:

1) When some (most?) people approach retirement, they start winding down early. The first thing that happens is a failure to keep up with the literature. To stop doing research. It's a failure to be fresh. A failure of that hunger to be fresh. Outside activities fill the void left by the stuff that got them there. So they have a lot of down time. It's not quite retiring in place, but kind of. They've retired in their heads, and it shows. Not all professionals do that, but it's common. My experience is just with universities, but I've seen enough to discern a pattern.

2) Look at Roy. He hasn't adjusted well to the challenges of modern recruiting or modern coaching. And he loves his goff. He's a smart guy, and he could keep up with the modern era if he wanted to. Maybe he's just chosen not to. Maybe he just wants to slide into retirement gently. I think the question "Is Roy Williams Retired [In His Head]?" is a valid question. If I were a recruit's parent, I'd ask that right along with my questions about academics and sanctions.

[Edouble]

The title of this thread currently is "If Roy Williams Retired."

It should be, "Is Roy Williams Retired?"

Consider:

1) When some (most?) people approach retirement, they start winding down early. The first thing that happens is a failure to keep up with the literature. To stop doing research. It's a failure to be fresh. A failure of that hunger to be fresh. Outside activities fill the void left by the stuff that got them there. So they have a lot of down time. It's not quite retiring in place, but kind of. They've retired in their heads, and it shows. Not all professionals do that, but it's common. My experience is just with universities, but I've seen enough to discern a pattern.

2) Look at Roy. He hasn't adjusted well to the challenges of modern recruiting or modern coaching. And he loves his goff. He's a smart guy, and he could keep up with the modern era if he wanted to. Maybe he's just chosen not to. Maybe he just wants to slide into retirement gently. I think the question "Is Roy Williams Retired [In His Head]?" is a valid question. If I were a recruit's parent, I'd ask that right along with my questions about academics and sanctions.

I love 'heel bashing as much as the next guy, but Roy is coming off of a Final Four and an ACC Championship. I don't call that winding down, compared to the last years of say, Gene Keady, Bob Knight, or Denny Crum.

[G man]

Sure, but the vast majority are along for the ride.

-- UNC's 13 playoff players put up a total of 86.6 PPG combined this season (7.4 PPG weighted average).
-- 7 of UNC's playoff players are averaging under 20 MPG.

-- Duke's 9 playoff players put up a total of 88.3 PPG combined this season (9.9 PPG weighted average).
-- Just 2 of Duke's playoff players are averaging under 20 MPG.

-- UNC's shining example of four-year player (though not reading skills) development, Tyler Hanstravel, averaged 2.4 PPG this year and has averaged 6.7 PPG for his career.

By the way, just for the heck of it, I looked at all active NBA players from each university/"school"...

-- UNC's 16 active players in the league put up a combined total of 105.0 PPG (weighted average of 7.2 PPG) this season.
-- Duke's 19 active players in the league put up a combined total of 174.2 PPG (weighted average of 9.8 PPG) this season.

-- UNC had just two guys average in double figures this season. (Barnes 11.7, Williams 11.7)
-- Duke had six guys average in double figures this season. (Irving 19.6, Okafor 17.5, Redick 16.3, Hood 14.5, Parker 14.1, Deng 12.3)

To try to be fair, Duke has its fair share of guys averaging low single digits. But I am failing to see where UNC's guys are "among the most prepared players around..."

I hate defending UNC it makes me want to vomit, but...... We always get stuck in trying to use game statistics to back up what we are selling. Did coach K make Kyrie blazing fast, or did he give Okafor massive hands and quick feet? A bunch of the success is recruiting not development. It so hard to quantify which is which. Roy has not done himself any favors in the one and done Era by not getting sure fire one done players in the nba right away, but I do think he is a top 10 coach.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

The title of this thread currently is "If Roy Williams Retired."

It should be, "Is Roy Williams Retired?"

Consider:

1) When some (most?) people approach retirement, they start winding down early. The first thing that happens is a failure to keep up with the literature. To stop doing research. It's a failure to be fresh. A failure of that hunger to be fresh. Outside activities fill the void left by the stuff that got them there. So they have a lot of down time. It's not quite retiring in place, but kind of. They've retired in their heads, and it shows. Not all professionals do that, but it's common. My experience is just with universities, but I've seen enough to discern a pattern.

2) Look at Roy. He hasn't adjusted well to the challenges of modern recruiting or modern coaching. And he loves his goff. He's a smart guy, and he could keep up with the modern era if he wanted to. Maybe he's just chosen not to. Maybe he just wants to slide into retirement gently. I think the question "Is Roy Williams Retired [In His Head]?" is a valid question. If I were a recruit's parent, I'd ask that right along with my questions about academics and sanctions.

Your premise for an argument is just plan wrong from the start.

Roy has adjusted to everything just fine. In case somebody slept thru the last season, his players dominated the ACC, made the final four, and just missed on a great shot at a championship by a buzzer beater.

All the while battling an extremely difficult recruiting environment the past few years.

What you may see as a lack of "adjustment" I see as that he hasn't sold out his coaching style. He continues to build teams to fit his system...good teams...gets kids to buy in, and understand his concepts, and then play at a high level.

He would love to have those OAD types, and he's still recruiting them. But the truth is, teams win championships, not just great individual talent.

The academic/NCAA mess would have crushed a weaker coach the past few seasons, but Roy has continued to work hard and get the job done.

Keep underestimating him at your own peril.

[davidson]

In the current NBA play offs, which school has the most players? (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25554450/infographic-colleges-that-have-the-most-players-in-the-2016-nba-playoffs) That's right, it's UNC...and all but Vince Carter are Roy's guys.

In the current NBA playoffs, which school has the best player? That's right, it's Davidson!

And McKillop has not only coached an NBA player with 73 regular season wins, he's also coached another NBA player with 72 regular season wins.

While I do believe that Bob is an all-time great coach, I really post this as an example of how NBA success may not be an ideal proxy for judging coaching ability. I think McKillop is a great coach for a million reasons, and not just because he saw greatness in Steph earlier than others and offered him a scholarship. And NBA success for UNC players tells me that Roy could recruit, but I wouldn't put him on the list of great in-game coaches.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I hate defending UNC it makes me want to vomit, but... We always get stuck in trying to use game statistics to back up what we are selling. Did coach K make Kyrie blazing fast, or did he give Okafor massive hands and quick feet? A bunch of the success is recruiting not development. It so hard to quantify which is which. Roy has not done himself any favors in the one and done Era by not getting sure fire one done players in the nba right away, but I do think he is a top 10 coach.

It's hard to give any coach much credit for getting a OAD to the league, Roy included.

A better measurement is the coach that gets the 3-4 year guys to a guaranteed NBA contract...and I'd bet Roy is right up there with the best using that standard.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

To try to be fair, Duke has its fair share of guys averaging low single digits. But I am failing to see where UNC's guys are "among the most prepared players around..."

The point was getting guys to the league. Any coach can take credit for the highly talented OAD players. It's precisely developing that "blue collar" guy that sticks on the rosters where a coach can be credited with having a less talented player prepared.

[Edouble]

In the current NBA playoffs, which school has the best player? That's right, it's Davidson!

And McKillop has not only coached an NBA player with 73 regular season wins, he's also coached another NBA player with 72 regular season wins.

While I do believe that Bob is an all-time great coach, I really post this as an example of how NBA success may not be an ideal proxy for judging coaching ability. I think McKillop is a great coach for a million reasons, and not just because he saw greatness in Steph earlier than others and offered him a scholarship. And NBA success for UNC players tells me that Roy could recruit, but I wouldn't put him on the list of great in-game coaches.

OK, I give up. There were no Davidson graduates on the 96 Bulls.

[throatybeard]

1) When some (most?) people approach retirement, they start winding down early. The first thing that happens is a failure to keep up with the literature. To stop doing research. It's a failure to be fresh. A failure of that hunger to be fresh. Outside activities fill the void left by the stuff that got them there. So they have a lot of down time. It's not quite retiring in place, but kind of. They've retired in their heads, and it shows. Not all professionals do that, but it's common. My experience is just with universities, but I've seen enough to discern a pattern.

For every totally checked-out 61yo associate professor I have ever known, there have been 10x or 20x as many fulls who continue to do the research component of their job for free after they actually do retire.

Note that I've lived exclusively in Humanities departments. I have no idea if there are a bunch of 86yo oncologists or engineers.

[throatybeard]

Are we actually arguing that silly "Duke vs UNC pros" deceased horse again? On the internet? Is this 1998?

[vick]

OK, I give up. There were no Davidson graduates on the 96 Bulls.

I believe he coached Bill Wennington (http://www.nytimes.com/1985/02/09/sports/players-wennington-becomes-a-force.html) in high school.

[throatybeard]

I believe he coached Bill Wennington (http://www.nytimes.com/1985/02/09/sports/players-wennington-becomes-a-force.html) in high school.

Well someone had to.

[77devil]

Keep underestimating him at your own peril.

I see no peril. Coach K has essentially owned Roy at Kansas and UNC. Nothing on the horizon indicates a change.


Are we actually arguing that silly "Duke vs UNC pros" deceased horse again? On the internet? Is this 1998?

After almost 30 years of cheating, UNC fans need something to hold onto.

[oldnavy]

The point was getting guys to the league. Any coach can take credit for the highly talented OAD players. It's precisely developing that "blue collar" guy that sticks on the rosters where a coach can be credited with having a less talented player prepared.

There was a time not so long ago that UNC fans gave me a hard time about Duke because our guys stayed in school and didn't leave early.

There were rumors that Coach K told a player that he was ruining his program when he decided to go pro. The idea was that Coach K held his players back out of a selfish desire that placed Duke/Coach K above the well being of the players.

At the same time, I heard UNC fans praising Roy and Dean for encouraging their players to leave early and take the money. When Marvin Williams and Brandon Wright left, it was because they were encouraged to go out of a selfless desire to see them prosper. (Double standard??)

Now, it seems that the worm has turned. UNC fans are praising Roy for keeping his players longer and disparaging K for the OAD's.

We all know that Roy would love to have had Ingram, Okafor, Jones, Winslow, Parker, Rivers, Irving... but he for whatever reason had no luck with attracting the top tier talent. I think a lot of it has to do with the NCAA issues. But there is probably more to it. Harrison Barnes, who was almost a lock to be OAD didn't show enough in his first year at UNC to make the leap. So, some of Roy's recruiting issues have to be his recent track record with his players. Barnes had a solid year, but he didn't excel as a freshman. Was this Roy's fault? Probably, but it doesn't matter, Roy is held accountable by the recruits he goes after if not by the UNC fan base.

I am not going to say that I like the OAD trend. I don't. So, I am not going to knock teams that recruit around the OAD's... as long as that is their intention from the beginning.

The problem I have with UNC and it's fans is one of honesty or lack thereof. Instead of admitting that UNC is not able to get OAD talent, they change the narrative and claim that they don't want to play the OAD game, all the while courting the top kids out of each HS class.

Just one more example of how dishonest UNC is to the core.
Bias is a real thing. We ALL are biased. The trick is to recognize where you are biased and work to suppress it. I love it when I meet someone who is a UNC fan and they admit straight up that they see everything through baby blue lens. I can deal with that.

But you simply cannot deal with someone who's core belief is that UNC can do no wrong and they believe that they are coming from a position of moral superiority and not bias.

[Olympic Fan]

The problem I have with UNC and it's fans is one of honesty or lack thereof. Instead of admitting that UNC is not able to get OAD talent, they change the narrative and claim that they don't want to play the OAD game, all the while courting the top kids out of each HS class.

It has been noted elsewhere that Roy has offered 28 top 25 ranked prospects over the last two seasons (and gotten none).

He's not avoiding one-and-done talent by choice ...

[oldnavy]

It has been noted elsewhere that Roy has offered 28 top 25 ranked prospects over the last two seasons (and gotten none).

He's not avoiding one-and-done talent by choice ...

I know it, you know it and the rest of the world knows it!

Well the rest of the world that doesn't fall under the UNC spell.

[jv001]

There was a time not so long ago that UNC fans gave me a hard time about Duke because our guys stayed in school and didn't leave early.

There were rumors that Coach K told a player that he was ruining his program when he decided to go pro. The idea was that Coach K held his players back out of a selfish desire that placed Duke/Coach K above the well being of the players.

At the same time, I heard UNC fans praising Roy and Dean for encouraging their players to leave early and take the money. When Marvin Williams and Brandon Wright left, it was because they were encouraged to go out of a selfless desire to see them prosper. (Double standard??)

Now, it seems that the worm has turned. UNC fans are praising Roy for keeping his players longer and disparaging K for the OAD's.

We all know that Roy would love to have had Ingram, Okafor, Jones, Winslow, Parker, Rivers, Irving... but he for whatever reason had no luck with attracting the top tier talent. I think a lot of it has to do with the NCAA issues. But there is probably more to it. Harrison Barnes, who was almost a lock to be OAD didn't show enough in his first year at UNC to make the leap. So, some of Roy's recruiting issues have to be his recent track record with his players. Barnes had a solid year, but he didn't excel as a freshman. Was this Roy's fault? Probably, but it doesn't matter, Roy is held accountable by the recruits he goes after if not by the UNC fan base.

I am not going to say that I like the OAD trend. I don't. So, I am not going to knock teams that recruit around the OAD's... as long as that is their intention from the beginning.

The problem I have with UNC and it's fans is one of honesty or lack thereof. Instead of admitting that UNC is not able to get OAD talent, they change the narrative and claim that they don't want to play the OAD game, all the while courting the top kids out of each HS class.

Just one more example of how dishonest UNC is to the core.
Bias is a real thing. We ALL are biased. The trick is to recognize where you are biased and work to suppress it. I love it when I meet someone who is a UNC fan and they admit straight up that they see everything through baby blue lens. I can deal with that.

But you simply cannot deal with someone who's core belief is that UNC can do no wrong and they believe that they are coming from a position of moral superiority and not bias.

I can't give you sporks, must spread more around, but what you say is the honest to God truth. Most uncheat fans cannot see beyond that uglyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy shade of blue. Olde Roy would probably give up golf if he could attract the OADs. Well he probably wouldn't go that far. :cool: GoDuke!

[throatybeard]

Carolina fans have long since bred any expectation way way OUT of me for their being honest, or for their treating Duke people with the barest of human decency.

So I'm not surprised when they're dishonest about something as relatively insignificant as college basketball recruting. If you're dishonest about whether your players are even doing academic work, why would you be honest about anything else?

The Carolina Way, indeed.